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WMLC - Thoughts appreciated!Sandi,
I have read your old(er) thread on WW with great interest, as it includes many insights and reminds me of my WW and her behavior. I would love if you could weigh-in on my sitch, as I/m not exactly sure with the best way to proceed to maybe get to place where an R would be a viable option. Thank you.
Read your sitch, hopefully sandi will weigh in. In the meantime, you should read my threads:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...ain=61151&Number=2778449#Post2778449Ignore my actions and words, as I made a lot of mistakes, but read the advice I got. I think you will find it invaluable.
Skimmed your sitch.
Here is a link to sandi2 profile, she was last on 2 days ago:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showprofile&User=16397Here is a link to all her posts:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=userposts&id=16397And the threads she created:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=userposts&view=started&id=16397Keep reading as many of her posts as you can. She is wise and most likely advised someone else in the past with info you can apply to your sitch.
My 2 cents: Do not initiate divorce to get a reaction from W. Only do it as a boundary to protect yourself.
Hey WMLC. From reading your sitch, i think, as you seem to be realizing yourself, that your W is a WW and not in a MLC. Sandi2 can probably weigh in a little more, but alot of us here have gone through the same thing... WW syndrome seems to be a lot more prevalent than MLCs on here.
You can get a lot of good insight just by reading "Sandi's Rules", which i believe are stickied in the newcomer's forums, as well as reading through her other threads. She has also helped a number of particular posters on here who have suffered through having a WW (myself included), and, as Steve indicated, all hope is not lost even where you have "screwed up" (as he and i both have on more than one occasion, lol).
One more thought, since you are in fact a newcomer and will have questions and concerns likely spanning a wide range of issues/topics, probably not a bad idea to run your threads over here on the newcomer's forum... is a significantly more widely frequented forum and you are more likely, imo, to get feedback when posting over here.
I'm confused, how do you guys distinguish between a wayward wife, a walkaway wife, and a mid life crisis??? (asking because I'm in the walkaway wife column, but not sure how that intersects with MLC and what the differences are)
I'm confused, how do you guys distinguish between a wayward wife, a walkaway wife, and a mid life crisis??? (asking because I'm in the walkaway wife column, but not sure how that intersects with MLC and what the differences are)
Wayward wife usually involves an EA/OM. Whereas Walkaway Wife is just fed up with you or MR, but no one else is involved.
Not sure about MLC... MLC and Walkaway seems relatively the same to me, except maybe MLC is more age specific around 40/50 age range, even though there is QLC around 30.
Oversimplified:
Wayward wife - actively involved with another person. Secret Affairs etc.
Walkaway - done working on marriage. Believe H will not change.
MLC - missing/missed out on something.
OK, my W is definitely walkaway, but might also be in the MLC category.
Let me close this part by saying that There are some women who leave
the M due to giving up, out of discouragement, loss of connection,
etc. Perhaps the H neglected her to the point she no longer wants to
stay with him. Perhaps he has nothing at all, but she has other issues.
And of course, there are WAW's who come from abusive
R's, and other issues I could name, but the point I'm making is that
these woman may not have a wayward heart. Just b/c they left the MR,
does not mean their heart has gone bad. That was my point in dividing
the wayward wife from the walk-away wife.
Thanks for the feedback. Maybe filing D unnecessary if I just proceed to discuss what D would look like for her. Not going to rush a decision on it, but love gathering all your opinions.
Thanks, Ready. Very helpful.
Why is your main thread not in newcomers?
Started in MLC, as that's what I thought I was dealing with. Am I able to move a thread to another forum myself?
NO you can't.
And yes you thought you were dealing with a MLC because it is easier if you can find a cause, then there is a potential "cure". That mentality will kill you. This is happening because you only get control of one person in this life, and it ain't her's.
Steve85, I agree with you 100 percent. I am really focusing on GAL, 180s and minimal contact with W. When we are at the house, we only discuss the kids. She will try with the small talk, "Hi," "Have a good day" "I'll talk to you later" etc. I do not respond to anything other than talking about kids or bills. This really bothers her, as it represents a 180 for me, who usually defaults to NSG actions.
Started in MLC, as that's what I thought I was dealing with. Am I able to move a thread to another forum myself?
You can ask the moderators to move it. Look for the "report" button.
Ready,
I just moved his thread from MLC to Newcomers. It's close to being locked.
WMLC, do you want me to lock your first thread and then link both threads up?
Job, yes that would be great. Thanks!
Not much to update really. I really hate living in limbo land. W wants a D, but won't move it forward (at least not quickly anyway). I have been spinning a bit the last few days. I am not certain what I want or what to do. Head says to push the D and move on, but the heart (usually) says be the lighthouse and she will eventually emerge from the tunnel. Our interactions are cordial, no yelling etc., but she is drifting further away as I DB. I am also detaching, which would be even easier without kids.
Limbo is the gift of time. Use it wisely. (IE GAL, 180s, detachment)
Steve85,
Yes, I agree with you, I have lost 45 lbs, working out 3 times a week, gotten Lasik surgery, new (better) job, GAL-ing more (much more than anytime in last 10 years), and trying some 180s. Feeling and looking good. In your opinion, as someone who successfully made it through this maze, how should I act towards her? I tend to go between going dark and being friendly and responding to her small talk. I've been cold towards her the last few days and she has continued to update me on the goings-on with S11 and her need to get some dental work done today etc. I guess I'm stuck on trying to figure out where she is coming from, which I know is a mistake because she is in fantasy land and not of sound mind or judgment. I really just want limbo to end, one way or another.
Don't be cold. Read sandi's rules and pay attention to the advice on the friendly cashier. ALso continue to study detachment (cadet's welcome thread has a great length). YOu can also google "self-differentiation in marriage" to get further insight into proper detachment.
Trying to end limbo prematurely results in D the vast majority (think over 99%) of the time. Patience is a huge key to DBing effectively.
Good advice, Steve85. "Friendly cashier" can inhibit my ability to detach, though I'm learning. It's tough sometimes to stay off the roller coaster. Example: She just left for dentist and said "Do you need me to pick up anything for you on the way back? Just let me know." She still wants to handle my dry cleaning. I mean, for someone who has stated that the key to her happiness is to dispose of me, she isn't acting like that is the case. Why wouldn't she just up and leave completely? (We are separated, but you get the point).
W,
Your W sounds a lot like my ex (low conflict?) where she was cordial and still did things for me up until the end. She even cleaned my entire house when she moved out. The important thing is not to read into it. I think they truly feel guilty about putting everyone through it. Use it to your advantage. I got a very favorable settlement. Stay strong and keep detaching.
LH, yes, she is low conflict. What is your relationship with your XW and kids like now? Do you feel you are in a better place now than you were at end of M (post BD)?
W,
Very cordial and the kids are doing great 16 months into it. Minor bumps early on but to be honest they are doing great.
100% better place now then the end of the marriage and I had a pretty good WW. Life is to short to try to keep someone who wants out. I just started dating again after taking a break for 3 months. Though I haven’t found the one I want to settle down with there is no shortage of good women available to date. I have zero problem with being alone either.
At this point my advice to you is to open the cage door and set her free if that is her wish.
At this point my advice to you is to open the cage door and set her free if that is her wish.
Just don't push her out. Keep the cage clean, as well as food and water dish full.
Ready, what’s the thought process behind your prescribed “cage door” approach?
Ready, what’s the thought process behind your prescribed “cage door” approach?
A caged animal will try to escape. But an animal that is free to choose may choose to enter the cage.
I have housebroken a lot of puppies over the years using the crate method. They sleep and eat in their crate. They sty in their crate when we are not home because dogs will not eat or sleep where they go potty. At first they want out of the crate anytime they are in it. Over time they associate the crate with eating and sleeping. Eventually, after they are housebroken if you leave the crate open they will go into it WILLING to sleep.
WASs are like that. If you try to 'crate' them, they want to escape. Open the crate door and make it their freedom of choose to go or stay, and they might choose to stay.
Ready, what’s the thought process behind your prescribed “cage door” approach?
Don't try to control other people. Set your own boundaries to protect yourself. If they are crossed, you take action to protect yourself. Work on being attractive. Attract people into your life. RobX was the wise "set them free" DBer.
What Steve and R2C said. A common complaint of WAS's is that they feel "caged in" or trapped. The idea is for you to open the cage door. You don't push them out, you don't pull them in, you just open the door and let them choose. How do you do that? If she comes to you and says she wants a D you say "this is not what I want but I understand that you feel you need this and I will not stand in your way, I will support your decision whatever it is." That's one way of opening the door. She's free to stay, she's free to go. You're not doing anything to influence her choice, you're just getting out of the way and letting her choose. If she no longer sees the cage/ home/ marriage as a prison then she won't feel pressured into immediate action.
AS, we have had that very discussion. Minimal discussion regarding finances etc since that meeting, which happened at MC. On a related note, I had an individual counseling session with our same MC this afternoon. It is her opinion that W is dealing with childhood trauma and that W still loves me. She also told me that the my W was shocked when I told her at that last session, "You sound like you need to move on. I'm letting you go." MC said she wishes she could have taken a picture of expression on W's face when I said that and that she wouldn't throw dirt on on the M yet. Just one more perspective, I suppose.
Hello WMLC. I've just completed reading your thread. I will be able to post more tomorrow, but for now just let me say that I don't think you should initiate D with the intent of causing her a sense of loss. IMHO, there are some other things you can do.
Just wanted to let you know I've seen your shout out. Talk tomorrow.
Okay, so to just jump in here, I want you to know that symptoms we see in a WAW/WW/MLCW can appear very similar. With that said, I'm going back to your first post to address some things as we go.
About 3 months ago, I noticed my wife stomping around, seemingly angry at everyone and everything. (About 3 months prior to this, she joined the gym, made new friends etc.)
Does she talk about her new friends? Like, are they younger, single, etc. Are there any guy friends in this group? Women influence women. If your W has felt less than satisfied about her MR, then another woman who has a very happy MR could be a source of inspiration for your W. On the other hand, if your W is associating herself with young, vibrate, carefree, singles who talk about their exciting lives (and it's b/c they are free & single)........she may find herself wishing she was free and see what's out there, yada, yada, yada. Here's the thing. In the past, she may have conducted herself like a mature minded woman, but currently, she is
emotionally vulnerable. She's unhappy and she feels trapped in a sexually starved MR. I think the reason she feels "confused" is b/c she's experiencing thoughts or emotions that contradicts her sense of moral integrity. She may even make the statement that she doesn't know who she is anymore.
If you have read my thread here
https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...ain=57285&Number=2545554#Post2545554 you know how it all started with unresolved issues that turns to resentment about her H. Eventually, that resentment turns to disrespect. Disrespect leads to lack of attraction. A wife has to respect her H in order to feel desire for him. That is the way she is wired! Waywardness is all about a lack of respect. She has other negative characteristics but I won't get off into all of that right now.
She started individual counseling a week later and has continued since. Her counselor recommended a trial separation, which I agreed to. It is tough because she runs a business out of the house, but she shows up in the morning before kids get up and stays throughout the day while I'm at work.
Is her work mostly on the computer, or does she have some type or shop at the home? If it is mostly computer related, could she work somewhere else, instead of the marital home? I'll get back on this, once I see your answer.
BTW, I want you to understand that whatever you decide to do, it is not about punishing her.
Since our initial R talk, I have made several changes. Working out regularly, lost 22 lbs., more present with family interactions, etc. I actually feel awakened, for lack of a better term. She says the changes are only temporary and won't last etc. I know that's not true, but I don't get defensive or argue. I would very much like to save this marriage, and we have started marriage counseling. The counselor suggested we keep this semi separation and that she come to the house for family dinners on Sundays, which she agreed to do.
Making changes in yourself is great, but let me explain how she looks at it. Everything is about
her, and nothing is about you.....in her opinion. You probably contributed to the breakdown of the M, but you could become an amazing person and it may not change her current feelings. If she isn't wayward, I might agree with the advice from the counselor, but if your W
is wayward.......she is going to
use you to play happy family, or attend social events as a couple, or sit with her at ballgames b/c she doesn't want to sit alone, etc. Nobody is more selfish, nor has a sense of entitlement like the WW. Sadly, there are IC/MC who are not pro-marriage, and apparently, some have no clue about the mindset of a WW.
WW's seem to be quite talented in making the LBH feel that he has to prove his changes or show his love.........just like your W said your changes are temporary. Look, a WW doesn't care how much her H works to improve himself. It doesn't affect her feelings for him. She may get angry that he waited till now to make changes, but it's not going to change her heart problems. The two of you are currently on separate paths and it will probably get worse before it gets better, but that doesn't mean it's your fault. Make sense?
While I haven't pleaded or begged, I have acknowledged my shortcomings in the marriage and apologized to her for how she feels.
Is she giving you specific shortcomings.......or, are you just apologizing without knowing the crime? I just want to caution you about taking ownership of her feelings. I think a lot of men give an overall apology, hoping it will make the WW feel better and they can get that (whatever "that" is) behind them. Okay, so you apologized. No need to apologize again for the same offense.
I've got to bring this post to an end. My suggestions at this point is the following:
Drop the MC. If she decides to continue IC, that's up to her. After reconciliation, you can attend MC.
See a lawyer to know where you stand legally, how to protect yourself financially, get equal time with your kids, etc. I want to make this clear. I can't stress enough how important it is to protect yourself. Make it your priority.
I would drop the Sunday dinners, and playing happy family. WW's want their freedom, but they also want to hold on to family traditions, especially during the holidays.
Don't initiate contacts with her.
I also think it's likely there is an OM the picture, which, given her feelings when she finally let them out, would not be a surprise. I know the odds are strongly against me, but I can actually see a vibrant marriage rebirth if we can get through this.My wife checks almost every box on every MLC symptoms list you can find.
If you knew for certain there was OM in the picture, would you do something different?
She may be in MLC. I hope you will continue posting, and maybe we can tell more about it.
Does she talk about her new friends? Like, are they younger, single, etc. Are there any guy friends in this group? Women influence women. If your W has felt less than satisfied about her MR, then another woman who has a very happy MR could be a source of inspiration for your W. On the other hand, if your W is associating herself with young, vibrate, carefree, singles who talk about their exciting lives (and it's b/c they are free & single)........she may find herself wishing she was free and see what's out there, yada, yada, yada. Here's the thing. In the past, she may have conducted herself like a mature minded woman, but currently, she is emotionally vulnerable. She's unhappy and she feels trapped in a sexually starved MR. I think the reason she feels "confused" is b/c she's experiencing thoughts or emotions that contradicts her sense of moral integrity. She may even make the statement that she doesn't know who she is anymore.
Her "new" gym friends are mainly female. Some young and unhitched, some married. A number of her older friends (and her siblings) are divorced, or in the process of getting divorced.
Is her work mostly on the computer, or does she have some type or shop at the home? If it is mostly computer related, could she work somewhere else, instead of the marital home? I'll get back on this, once I see your answer.
She runs a daycare/learning center out of the house. It is licensed specifically for this setup, very difficult to move unfortunately.
Making changes in yourself is great, but let me explain how she looks at it. Everything is about her, and nothing is about you.....in her opinion. You probably contributed to the breakdown of the M, but you could become an amazing person and it may not change her current feelings. If she isn't wayward, I might agree with the advice from the counselor, but if your W is wayward.......she is going to use you to play happy family, or attend social events as a couple, or sit with her at ballgames b/c she doesn't want to sit alone, etc. Nobody is more selfish, nor has a sense of entitlement like the WW. Sadly, there are IC/MC who are not pro-marriage, and apparently, some have no clue about the mindset of a WW.
She does not ever go out as a family and really has been less than interested in S11, but for the bare minimum. She is adopted and our MC believes there issues stemming from locating her birth mother and being rejected by her (again) when she reached out to make contact. I am an issue, for sure, but this is really about her issues/depression.
WW's seem to be quite talented in making the LBH feel that he has to prove his changes or show his love.........just like your W said your changes are temporary. Look, a WW doesn't care how much her H works to improve himself. It doesn't affect her feelings for him. She may get angry that he waited till now to make changes, but it's not going to change her heart problems. The two of you are currently on separate paths and it will probably get worse before it gets better, but that doesn't mean it's your fault. Make sense?
Makes perfect sense. The changes are for me, and will benefit me and my kids regardless of what happens with W.
Is she giving you specific shortcomings.......or, are you just apologizing without knowing the crime? I just want to caution you about taking ownership of her feelings. I think a lot of men give an overall apology, hoping it will make the WW feel better and they can get that (whatever "that" is) behind them. Okay, so you apologized. No need to apologize again for the same offense.
Complacency and focusing too much on kids and not enough on R. That's all either of us have spoken about.
Drop the MC. If she decides to continue IC, that's up to her. After reconciliation, you can attend MC.
See a lawyer to know where you stand legally, how to protect yourself financially, get equal time with your kids, etc. I want to make this clear. I can't stress enough how important it is to protect yourself. Make it your priority. I would drop the Sunday dinners, and playing happy family. WW's want their freedom, but they also want to hold on to family traditions, especially during the holidays. Don't initiate contacts with her.
No more MC, though I did have an individual session with our MC yesterday, W asked if she could come over this Sunday, and I said it was her decision.
If you knew for certain there was OM in the picture, would you do something different?
I would go from "friendly cashier" to throwing her stuff out on the lawn, Our MC does not think she has OM, but she is definitely running and abandoning her old life due to her own internal struggle.
Thanks for your quick response to my questions. The more you can tell us about the marital history, the better observation we'll have about the overall situation. So far, I'm not hear a lot of fear in your posts, which it good b/c there are LBH's who are paralyzed with fear of losing his family.
I suggest that you put together a plan of action. Take a few days, keep a private journal to write out your goals, the initiative steps to take and how you will keep the momentum going. Some board members use their thread as a journal. Another word of caution is accepting the fact the ground has shifted b/c of whatever crises your W is experiencing. I listed several things in my first thread about the mindset of WW, and one of the points was she is not the same girl the H remembers marrying. There'll be times he will swear something evil has invaded her body. We have a saying around here.........hold your cards close to your chance. Don't forfeit the game by sharing everything you know, or have done, or tell her the advice you be given. Some H feel so desperate and panicky, they are scared to pull up their own boot straps without telling his W first. So, hold your deck of cards very close.
You feel awake and probably energized and would love for you and W to make a clean slate, reconnect or recommit, etc. But as things stand momentarily, I think she would get you to spill your guts and tell her everything. I mean, you've been with her for nearly 20 years and you've never kept secrets away from her.......................have you? Before you can safely interact with her in the hope of drawing her back, I strongly encourage you to get very serious about getting free legal advice, and learn some domestic laws and what you can and can't do. She has opened this up........so, don't just sit around with your fingers crossed she'll do the right thing. If she does you'll be setting great, and if doesn't your plan is has already been set into action. That's why the H & W need different lawyers. You always try to show dignity, honor, self-respect, and self confidence. If you feel you are being equal/fair and can maintain a civilized interact without somebody's feathers getting ruffled, then that will be great, and if peace lingers in your co-parenting or other things, who knows if it will help her to see you more objectively.......and likes what she sees.
So, see if you can schedule a couple of free meetings with lawyers this next week. They may give you no more than 30 minutes, so have a hand written list of what to ask the lawyer. BTW, doesn't use a lawyer that represents her too.
You've already started with the kids scheduling, so that's good. I think you and W will need to decide where the kids go during Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Years, etc. Be cooperate and fair (and don't forget grandpa & grandma wants to see them too.) Gut have that discussion when you feel the time feels right. That way, it won't be hanging over your head throughout the holiday season. But...........don't tell her what all your inquired about from your lawyer. It is legal, and the only reason I suggest not saying anything to her first, is knowing you beat her to it. And it won't change. This is what she thinks she wants, and the first holidays coming up are tough, and you do not have to discuss your business with friends or in-laws, but having been there myself.......it can be quite a shock. And the sadness, we felt as if our family was being ripped apart. It gets better after those first few times going without her.
From this point forward, you will need to retrain your brain a little. You don't have the same behavior pattern when you first get home from work, where you might engage in a few minutes of discussing the day........which, of course, includes you seeing a lawyer. I just don't think you should tell her everything about the money, property, savings, etc. BTW, are you one of these type guys who does all the house chores so the little princess can lie down and recover from her day? Does she ask you to bring her things when the two of you down, maybe you are involved in something else, but you lay everything down and get what she wants and delivers........b/c one of you see that as love language.
Never forget who is the head of this family. It is a tremendous responsibility, buy you can do it. If she faces you in pure defiance/ rebellion/and outrage........,..try to remain calm and don't get into a scuffle over stuff. You can also keep records in your journal about this OM, I'm more in favor of being a man who can turn her head...........and don't allow thoughts of him occupy much head room. Don't brings it up to her, Don't talk about him to her and how you ruin his career, etc. I understand you have these feelings. If you really want to know more details, then hire a detective.. You may want to know the man's name. Don't obsessed about the affair partner.
Okay, another thing you need to do is set personal boundaries. That's like drawing an invisible line around yourself, and if someone dishonors that boundary and stomps over that line in the sand............you will be the one to take action that protects your well being, respect, or whatever is at stake here. But, I'll warn you that the consequences for the person who stepped over the line should receive a some form of consequence, or else what does it accomplish? Since she is running the daycare in your home, I do see how that would be difficult because of the laws and the rooms to be a certain size. etc.
Well i Have to call it a night. Not that it matters, but I think your W can work through this. It's just a matter of her not wanting to that's the pits.
Thanks for the feedback. Maybe filing D unnecessary if I just proceed to discuss what D would look like for her. Not going to rush a decision on it, but love gathering all your opinions.
Don't file if that's not what YOU want.
It seems detaching is the most difficult for newcomers to grasp.....much less actually doing it. I have a favorite copy of a much shorter definition/example of detaching. I'm going to paste it below.
****************************************************************************************************
Definition of Healthy Detachment...(Posted by DBer Peanut originally)
I. Detachment
Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.
Attached, we take personally ALL that is said, not said, done and not done.
When our ego gets wounded, we are more inclined to do/say things that undermine our goals.
When we are Detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love.
Met with love (known as to lovingly detach*), we are in a position to diffuse the situation, and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.
On the flip-side, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.
Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not indifference. It is not the mind saying, I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.
It is the natural acceptance that we alone are responsible for how we act. We cannot control another person, but we can control how we respond to them.
We are responsible for our own actions (no one else is).
We are responsible for our own happiness. (No one else is)
PART II Detachment (found around here)
Detachment is the:
* Ability to allow S the freedom to be him/herself.
* Holding back from the need to rescue, save or fix S from being sick, dysfunctional or irrational.
* Giving S "the space" to be him/herself.
* Disengaging from an over-enmeshed or dependent relationship with S.
* Accepting that I cannot change or control S and it was never my duty/job to do so.
* Establishing of emotional boundaries between me and S, so that both of us might be able to develop our own sense of autonomy and independence.
* Process by which I am free to feel my own feelings when I see S falter and fail and not to feel responsible for his/her failure, faltering or learning.
* Ability to maintain an emotional bond of love, concern and caring, without the negative results of rescuing, enabling, fixing, demanding or controlling.
* Placing of all things in life into a healthy, rational perspective. (=Balance is a piece of detachment).
* Ability to exercise emotional self-protection and prevention so as not to hang on beyond a reasonable and rational point.
* Ability to let people I love and care for accept personal responsibility for their own actions and not bail them out when their actions lead to failure or trouble for them.
* Ability to allow S to be who he/she really is rather than who I want him/her to be.
IF & WHEN THESE ^^^ FACTORS ARE ADDRESSED, -
We could have a great friendship, or a great marriage. And those are treasures.
I have already gotten legal advice to protect myself and the kids. I'm in a decent position in this regard, The fact that she has essentially left the home to sleep at her friend's house nightly will benefit me if D becomes a reality.
I do not speak to W about her day or anything like that since BD. Small acts of love have been halted. I only respond if she initiates. Been focused on detaching and on spending time with S11 (and communicating with S18 at college).
I am becoming more convinced that she needs to see what her life without me/family will look like before she realizes that while her M wasn't perfect, it can be renewed and saved for her benefit. Unfortunately her friends (and presumably her IC) are pushing D, rather than anything resembling DB principles.
Sandi, what did your H do (if anything) during your sitch that helped/hurt your decision to R?
She runs a daycare/learning center out of the house. It is licensed specifically for this setup, very difficult to move unfortunately.
Okay, gotcha. I'm a little surprised she left, unless she is dealing with burnout and just wants to escape the whole building that contains issues. That would include her H, and whatever issues are in the MR. IDK about her relationship with S11, but working with toddlers every day..........I'm wondering if she feels overloaded or burned out to the point S11 doesn't get much one on one at the end of the day with his mom. I'm just throwing thoughts at you. If you see something familiar, let me know. I remember feeling a great need to escape everything. I even wanted to leave my town and start a new life.
When I first joined the board back in 2007, I posted in the MLC forum. I was suffering with a lot of depression, other health issues, and we had an adult child with a life threatening disease that had taken a huge emotional toll on me. I started playing games on the Internet, as way of getting my mind off my real world. Big Mistake!! To cut to the chase, I had an EA with OM. When I came to the board, I was at the point that I needed someone to talk to me. I had not shared my secret with anyone, and frankly, I was a mess when I showed up on MWD's board.
It took some time to get my head clear and get my heart right......but I was here reading & posting every single night until I couldn't keep my eyes open. I would read posts from other LBS's giving advice from the viewpoint of a WAW or MLCW. I didn't want to appear as if I was going against Michele's advice in her books. I back up what she says about a WAW & MLC 100% (maybe 99%
). However, I knew when there was a
wayward wife in the marriage.........the H would need to be somewhat tougher than the general advice in DR for the WAW. I'm not implying he should be a jerk, or anything along those lines. If you've read my threads about the mindset of the WW, then I think you'll see what I mean.
She does not ever go out as a family and really has been less than interested in S11, but for the bare minimum. She is adopted and our MC believes there issues stemming from locating her birth mother and being rejected by her (again) when she reached out to make contact. I am an issue, for sure, but this is really about her issues/depression.
Can you share with us how she would respond to your issues?
I cannot imagine the emotional pain she suffered, due to the adoption/rejection. It could be the
thing that tips the scales and she is going to do something to escape that pain. I'm not a therapist. This is just me talking here. IMHO, when a person is suffering from MLC , those issues stem from something other than her MR. Something has happened that triggers this pain & confusion. She has anger & fear that is tied to something
apart from her MR. Her pain is not isolated to her MR. Her H and family experiences the fallout of her emotional crisis, but there is something else that is forcing her to deal with her
reality. Rejection, abandonment, loss of a loved one, etc., carries a lot of fear, hurt, anger, and grief with it. If she can't cope with her reality, her loved ones will suffer the results of her journey of MLC.
Now the wayward W is all about deep resentment & lack of respect that is
all tied to her H. As a WW, she'll blame him for all her unhappiness b/c
she believes he is responsible! Like I said previously, some of the outward symptoms may resemble MLC. However, I see differences in the
sources of the MLCW's pain..........and the WW's pain. For the WW, it's all about her H and how she's been unhappy for years, yada, yada. Everything is his fault. She becomes
consumed with a negative mindset about the man she married. She looses respect for him as a man, and it affects her desire. This eventually leads to rebellion. At first, it may be small signs of coldness, disrespect and rebellion against her H/MR. But once she is confronted by him.......or she drops the divorce bomb.........then you can bet she has a hidden agenda, and she is no longer a team player in that relationship. Her morals falls by the wayside.
Selfishness rules her direction. Don't forget it. If she can't benefit emotionally, physically, or financially........she's not interested. The heart of a WW is cold and hard! The only man she respects is one that is stronger than she is, and one who doesn't tolerate her b.s.
Google the word "wayward", and it describes the WW perfectly.
Given all the baggage from her adoption, and the fact that she is very cordial, if not outright friendly towards me at times, I think we are dealing primarily with mental illness/MLC. That's not to say there isn't a WW/OM component here. This morning, for example, she texted when she'd be home for Sunday dinner. She indicated she had to leave earlier than usual after dinner, and I told her I had plans to go out tonight. She then texted that she would rearrange her schedule to accommodate my plans. Then she started joking about things I forgot to get for sunday dinner (we are having tacos lol), including texting "lol" etc. She also likes anything I post on social media. I find these things odd if I'm truly the bane of her existence.
Sandi, I think you nailed it in your most recent reply. She is burnt out and needs an escape for at least some temporary relief while she tries to sort herself out. I'm really focused on following Sandi's rules. I've done a pretty good job, despite an initial bobble immediately following BD. Will she ever self-realize her unhappiness is an inside job, and blowing up her family won't fix that?
Will she ever self-realize her unhappiness is an inside job, and blowing up her family won't fix that?
The million dollar question. Sandi talks often about how she came to this board and had a lot of help before figuring stuff out. Hopefully she will share a direct answer, but my guess is that without help, it is possible to self-realize but only after truly hitting rock bottom (suffering an accumulation of losses as sandi puts it) and unfortunately even then, that could take much longer than you might think.
W came over for Sunday dinner, which was fine. She was friendly and chatty and I just responded to whatever she brought up in a cordial manner. She originally texted me earlier in the day saying she needed to leave promptly after dinner. I responded that I had made plans to go out in the evening after dinner. She responded immediately that she would rearrange her schedule to she could stay to watch S11 while I went out.
W is a high-level baker, and actually made a pie yesterday (also made brownies during the week). It was the first baking she's done in almost 5 months. Also noticed she put a few pounds back on since the summer when she was working out more regularly at her gym. She asked me if I was joining the local curling club (I went to a learn-to-curl event a few weeks back) and I said I was considering it. When she left, she thanked me for cooking dinner and said "I'll see you in the morning."
Sandi, what did your H do (if anything) during your sitch that helped/hurt your decision to R?
My H was not the one who was coming to the DB board, so he wasn't getting the
tools. My H had always had NGS, with the passivity, indecisiveness, etc. He was shy and not very talkative. In a group setting, he'd sit back and watch others participating. Me........I wasn't shy, had a very friendly personality, loved being in a fun group of people. I enjoyed participating in conversation, board games, singing/playing instruments, practically anything that would be considered good clean fun. After marriage, those opposite personalities will learn to compliment each other.......or drive you out of your mind!
Anyway, we never separated during my WW days. He knew something was up, so he investigated our computer's history...........and I was caught. He read every word that had been spoken between OM and me. I was so caught up in the thrill and fantasy until I didn't have enough sense to delete the history. Well, actually.......I didn't give my H enough credit in knowing how to pull up the history, b/c I didn't think he knew his way around a computer. But, he figured it out. The first time he confronted me, he was sweet but firm about me ending all activity immediately. When I went deeper underground to continue my EA, he confronted me the second time, and he wasn't sweet about it. The sh't hit the fan. The next day, we talked and I said so many things that other WW's tell their LBH! He didn't say much, but what he said carried a ton of weight. I was talking about maybe leaving (separating), and I used the famous, "Whatever happens, I want us to always be friends". His facial expression never changed throughout my dramatic display of emotions. He was calm, spoke softly. He shook his head and said, "If you leave, we will not be friends. There will be no buddy-buddy thing". Wow! That took my breath away, b/c I thought he would pine away for me, and be so grateful for my few crumbs. Nope, I underestimated him. Then,
I made the comment about me leaving and maybe later on.......if my new life didn't work out, I would come back home. (Something to that effect). His response? He looked straight in the eyes, slowly shook his head and said, "If you leave, there will be no coming back home". Wow! He did not say it with anger. He did not raise his voice. I knew he was dead serious, and it really shocked me. Like all WW's, I was a arrogant. In my mind, I could see him being so happy I would use him for Plan B! Nope, he shot that down in that one sentence. (My H never over-talks anything). .
Very interesting thoughts, Sandi. My W didn't think I'd let her go and she also thought I'd be happy to be her plan B while she worked through her stuff. I posted previously that our MC said W was shocked when I told her I'm letting her go during our final MC session. I am not going to file any paperwork, but I will keep talking about splitting finances etc to keep her thinking she has actually been dropped by me. I could be wrong, but I don't think she truly WANTS a D. I also think she wants to be "happy" and doesn't feel there are any other moves to make to accomplish that goal.
Well, accidentally hit the submit key, so then I tried to edit my post. You know what happened next, right? I got timed out!!!
Anyway.......as I was previously saying, my H had made a couple of profound statements, and it hit me that I had not, maybe could not, imagined my life without him quietly in the background, being available for me if I ever needed him..... or if I wanted to give him another chance to make me happy.
(Yes, that's the thinking of a WW).
Not much else was said that day, and I made no changes. In fact, I went even deeper underground with my EA. As with other WW's, this one interaction was not the turning point for me. However, something significant happened, and I hope any LBH's who may read this can understand what I'm trying to communicate. I didn't
like what my H said..........but he gained some
respect, b/c he was not playing the victim or trying to talk me into staying with him. He told me if I left we would not be friends, and once I left, there would be no coming back home. He is not the type to threaten or say things he doesn't mean. So, I took his words seriously and it was instrumental in stopping me from leaving for a few weeks and then going back home, like many WW's do. I knew once I left, there was no turning back. That is scary for a lot LBH's, b/c they have a desire to keep the road back paved smoothly. That concept has been grossly misunderstood by
some newcomers. But anyway, my H wasn't going to leave a crack in the door or pave any road. It was the first thing he said/did that made me respect him a little bit, in a long-long time.
So, guys you may want to say something that will be
the thing that turns her around from her waywardness, but it would be extremely rare, IMHO. The WW has to experience more than just hearing her H talk. In most cases I've read, things get worse before she is willing to even consider ending an affair, working on her MR, etc. I can look back and see how things came together and was instrumental in my decision to "do the right thing".
I am not going to file any paperwork, but I will keep talking about splitting finances etc to keep her thinking she has actually been dropped by me.
I wouldn't keep talking about it. This is what I want LBH's to understand. The more you keep
reminding your W about something........the less she takes you seriously. Say it once, without followup actions.........you
might get away with it that time, but say it twice without any followup action........and it's useless. My suggestion, if you've told her you are dropping her, is to have your actions match your words. I want to caution you about saying catchphrases with your W, until you have a little more time and DB under your belt.
I also think she wants to be "happy" and doesn't feel there are any other moves to make to accomplish that goal.
That's one of those common symptoms that seem to be found in WAW/WW/MLCW. They are desperate to feel happiness, and remaining with the H just doesn't seem to be the right answer for her. When I finally made the decision to do the right thing...........I cried like someone had died. When I told OM it was over, I cried even worse. I saw him as my last chance at happiness. See how twisted that mindset becomes? For a good while, I could get no higher than just
think about being "willing" to work on my MR. I had to get willing to get to the point of willingness.......if you know what I mean. That was a very difficult task for me. I saw staying in my M as a prison sentence.
Can you describe the dynamics of your MR, before you knew something wasn't right? Who set the tone in the R? Who called the shots? Why did the sex fade away? Why did you wait so long to approach her? Just give us something to help us see what it was like being M to each other. When you read that first page of my WW threads, did it sound as if I was writing about
your W?
Just wanted to touch on one of Sandi's thoughts some more, regarding how hard it hit her when her H said they would not be BFF's and she would not have the option of returning home if she left. It was because she knew he was SERIOUS. He did not say those things as tricks to get her back. A lot of LBS's will go through the motions of saying things like that hoping it scares the WAS into staying. That does not work because WAS's can tell when you mean it and when it's just lip service. And if you say it as a trick and then later try and recant, she will lose what little respect may still be left. Tricks don't ever work. Mean what you say, and be 100% willing to follow through, or don't say it to begin with.
Can you describe the dynamics of your MR, before you knew something wasn't right? Who set the tone in the R? Who called the shots? Why did the sex fade away? Why did you wait so long to approach her? Just give us something to help us see what it was like being M to each other. When you read that first page of my WW threads, did it sound as if I was writing about your W?
Our marriage was similar to many, I would guess. We were busy raising the kids and working. That's where our priorities were. I'd say we both started dropping hints to each other about 4-5 years ago. She wanted to do more things like travel, spend more time together, and I wanted a closer commute. I have traveled 75 minutes or more each way to work since we bought this house 10 years ago. The other person would respond with small positive changes for a week or two, but then we would both fall back into old habits. No one ever pressed their desire for real, substantive changes.
I would say I more set the tone in the marriage. I am 4 years older and kept track of finances, etc.
The sex faded because I became depressed (overweight and tired from commute) and she (understandably) didn't want to spend any time at the house when she wasn't operating her daycare. It would be sporadic. A great month or two, then a slow month or two. It's probably too late, but I have lost 45 lbs and look and feel better today than since before I met W.
I waited (too long obviously) to verbalize what was going on in my head. To me, when oldest went off to school (he left in August), things would change for the better. More time for ourselves, both together and as individuals. Common mistake for a male, I know.
As far as your WW thread, I would say there are similarities for sure. But she often says things like "your a good man" and she "isn't a bad person" who feels "selfish" for her actions. I think the adoption/mental illness piece is every bit as relevant as the WW. It's a mixed bag for sure.
Sandi,
Do you think my W would be thinking the same? She is having an A with another woman. Does that matter?
So, having a discussion about holiday schedules on Friday. We have done holidays together for 25 years and my kids know nothing else. W wants to go with her family and I take kids to my family. For obvious reasons, I have some strong feelings about this. I don't want to have to explain anything (or lie) to family and kids. I know many here have dealt with this before, so your input/advice is certainly welcomed.
Sandi,
Do you think my W would be thinking the same? She is having an A with another woman. Does that matter?
Could you be a little more specific about what I said?
As for a spouse having an affair with the same sex partner, I see no difference in how the betrayed spouse should respond. An affair is an affair!
Just wanted to touch on one of Sandi's thoughts some more, regarding how hard it hit her when her H said they would not be BFF's and she would not have the option of returning home if she left. It was because she knew he was SERIOUS. He did not say those things as tricks to get her back. A lot of LBS's will go through the motions of saying things like that hoping it scares the WAS into staying. That does not work because WAS's can tell when you mean it and when it's just lip service. And if you say it as a trick and then later try and recant, she will lose what little respect may still be left. Tricks don't ever work. Mean what you say, and be 100% willing to follow through, or don't say it to begin with.
AS/Sandi-- not to hijack this thread, but I have a thought/question about this. My H is/was in an EA and every R talk we had post BD, I have been absolutely adamant that if we D we will NOT be friends-- I've painted this incredibly bleak picture of D, including threatening to go for full custody, hiring the meanest L I can, all our friends and family would know he's a cheating a**hole, what our girls will think, etc. He, on the other hand, has this ridiculous fantasy of D where we are still best friends and eat dinner together every night, still vacation together as a family, he just goes off to his other house (and presumably AP). My stance has caused him to get incredibly angry with me, he's talked about it at length with his IC (who has told him that we are both intelligent people and we can make D however we want it to be), says over and over he knows I'm not that kind of person, I wouldn't deny our kids time with him (and then alternatively AM I really this evil of a person to threaten these things???), etc etc. However, I meant it 100%. I'm not proud of it, but that is where I am emotionally.
Anyway, this has been a point of contention and the last couple of R talks we've had he's really pushed that if he can consider my point of view (building a new, better MR... he thinks his two choices are D or a passionless co-parenting MR and doesn't see the possibility of the third way) I need to be more open to the idea of what a positive co-parenting D relationship would look like. I have told him that I'm not ready-- for me to be able to consider that option, of D without being enemies, I need to feel like we've both really tried before I am willing to consider other alternative scenarios in which we might be friends.
All to my major question-- I wonder if I hadn't been as adamant about not being friends (and meant it) early on, maybe he would have moved out, or moved down to the basement? He's said he's wanted to a couple of times but never acted on it. If this is/was a significant factor in him staying, that would be really helpful for me to know as I move forward (so I don't soften on this one-- I feel like I'm starting to) but also might be a helpful bit of info for other LBSs.
So, having a discussion about holiday schedules on Friday. We have done holidays together for 25 years and my kids know nothing else. W wants to go with her family and I take kids to my family. For obvious reasons, I have some strong feelings about this. I don't want to have to explain anything (or lie) to family and kids. I know many here have dealt with this before, so your input/advice is certainly welcomed.
Any advice on this?
W wants to go with her family and I take kids to my family.
Agree to this.
As far as questions,
"Where is W?"
H:"There are some things going on and we thought it best if she spent Thanksgiving with her family"
"Everything all right?"
H:"I can fill you in on the details later" Then change subject.
Thanks for the response, Ready2Change.
Just some observations from the last couple of days. I've noticed W's language (more swearing) and clothing choices (generally dressing down) have reverted back to those of someone in the early 20s. She remains mellow and cordial while going through the motions when she is at the home. She mentioned that I looked good in the sweater I was wearing when I arrived home after work/GAL-ing last night as well. Not reading anything into that, other than it was the first comment she's made like that since BD. Holiday schedule discussion still slated for Friday.
So, having a discussion about holiday schedules on Friday. We have done holidays together for 25 years and my kids know nothing else. W wants to go with her family and I take kids to my family. For obvious reasons, I have some strong feelings about this. I don't want to have to explain anything (or lie) to family and kids. I know many here have dealt with this before, so your input/advice is certainly welcomed.
Any advice on this?
You've got to cross that bridge sooner or later. Your W is ready to cross it now so you need to as well. Like R2C said you don't have to answer the hard questions right now but at the same time you don't want to lie about the situation. "W and I are going through some issues and are working on them, it's not something I wish to discuss right now but I appreciate your support."
So W just texted me (unsolicited) info on her nephew's college football game this weekend. Said, "In case you are looking for something to do with (S11).... not sure if you saw this." Is this a test of some sort?
W,
Before I answer, what do you think the test is?
Really not sure. Perhaps to see if I have any interest in her side of the family's happenings? Seems like an odd thing to point out for someone who has stated she wants to break the family(s) up.
Really not sure. Perhaps to see if I have any interest in her side of the family's happenings? Seems like an odd thing to point out for someone who has stated she wants to break the family(s) up.
Sounds like she's encouraging you to go do something with S11. My XW started doing that after BD as well, I think they do it as a way to drive home the point that you're NOT a family anymore. IE- "here's something you can do while you have S, go and have fun while I am off doing whatever I want."
W,
I think she is just giving you ideas of things to do with your son. I told you before you W reminds me of my ex. The low conflict ones want out but try to keep things as smooth and amicable as possible which can be confusing if you let it.
Looking back it may have been better to have a hostel one to make it easier to detach.
AS,
That could be, although I have been doing things every weekend with S11 on my own since BD, while she has done very little with him. I should add that one of her issues with our M is likely that we did much more with my side of the family than with hers.
W,
I think that’s his point that she likes it that way and she’s helping you out.
I really want to caution you to try not to read into anything she says or does.
Sandi2 Im not trying to hijack this thread but at one time you asked a bunch of questions about my stich, I didn't know if you had time to revisit my thread again? Thank you for anytime you have and the advice you give. My thread:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2864332&page=1
Sandi,
Thank you for all of your helpful guidance. One thing I wanted to ask you was how I should proceed with treating W? As outlined, I think we are dealing with a WW/MLCW/DepressedW and I sometimes feel stuck between treating her with tough love as a WW, and DB-ing using your 37 rules as a guide. I've been in limbo land for 5 months and I would estimate she's been in MLC mode for 19 months. What do you think?
You treat her like a friendly neighbor, border or cashier. Tough love is for known waywards.
Thank you for all of your helpful guidance. One thing I wanted to ask you was how I should proceed with treating W? As outlined, I think we are dealing with a WW/MLCW/DepressedW and I sometimes feel stuck between treating her with tough love as a WW, and DB-ing using your 37 rules as a guide. I've been in limbo land for 5 months and I would estimate she's been in MLC mode for 19 months. What do you think?
I would like to know what picture comes to your mind whenever you read those two words, "tough love". When you ask me how you should
treat her, I wonder if you see tough love as being mean, cold, angry, sullen, etc. It's none of those negative actions.
Can you see yourself implementing the 37 rules without feeling you have compromised your dignity, integrity, moral/spiritual beliefs? I've read thousands of posts that say these rules are so hard. The rules aren't hard, but due to the emotional feelings of the LBS, it becomes tough to stick by them. It's tough to follow directions or instructions when our feelings are trying to dictate our actions. It's tough to do something that seems so counter-intuitive. Do you feel these rules are unrealistic or don't apply to your situation? What about the page I sent you on DB detaching? (I think it was you) Have you been able to follow those guidelines? Some LBS's don't even try, b/c it is a measure of tough love. But I encourage you to start with the 37 rules, and the other guidelines (detaching, boundaries, etc.) Cadet posted. I don't recall any of them suggesting that the LBS mistreat the other spouse. It may not be to their particular liking.......but that's why we call it
tough love.
I can usually spot a WW as soon as the H begins to tell the story about their MR. I've tried to get you to open up and give us more, if possible, than just her adoption issues. You compared your M to most other people's MR. You said the sex trailed off and life got busy with work and raising a family.........but I still don't know how the two of you
interacted with each other. One reason I have tried to share with you as much as I have (without repeating things I posted in the WW threads) is to help you see who she
is........or for you to see that it doesn't describe her. Make sense? This is why it helps to know which of you were nurtured the relationship more. Who was the dominate spouse in the bedroom. Who was the leader in the marriage/family, and who called the shots. Which of you were laid back, and who got offended the easiest? Who made the first move to make up after a fight? Did you feel she was rejecting you sexually, or were you making excuses about it? When you had sex, was it really good sex for both of you? I'm not trying to make you feel uncomfortable, I'm just trying to get a better picture of the relationship. These are just some examples to help explain what might give us a better view.
Lack of respect kills attraction/desire in the wife, and that's why I bring it up so much. Did she show you respect in front of the children, her family, and friends.........or did she lose her temper and talk down to you? Did she embarrass you, make you the butt of jokes, make you feel put down, or treat you some other way that showed she didn't respect you as a man? Is she the type who won't bury the hatchet, forgive, and chose to remain bitter? If you say there was no evidence of disrespect for you.........and there is no sign of rebellion, then we can move on to something else. If you aren't sure if you've been disrespected in front of your kids, or others...........let me know. Seriously, some guys just don't know, b/c it's all they've ever seen in marriages.
Has her adoption/bio parents been the center of every problem in the MR? How long has she known about her bio parents? Were there M problems before she knew her birth mother, or did the M start falling apart afterwards? This is what I would consider. Waywardness is exactly what the dictionary says it is! Therefore, if a couple has been together 20 years, I'm thinking some of her resentment about her H would be made known to him. I'm thinking there would have been some signs that she wasn't all that happy with him and their MR, and she begin to demonstrate a lack of respect for him. Remember, for the WW......it's about anger and blaming her H for everything wrong in her life. Maybe nothing too big at first, but over time, it became more obvious. She may have a sense of entitlement, b/c he spoiled her and acted like her unpaid employee. That's when their sex life took a nose-dive.
Every WW doesn't have the same cookie-cut personality, so I may not say every single thing your W has said, or whatever. That's why I need to you to tell us more, if possible.
I'll tell you something that a lot of WW's have in common, especially when she is moving forward with her agenda. Have you ever been conned by someone? How did it make you feel? Well, the WW cons her H, at least she tries. I'm not saying she doesn't have some other legit issues, but she will
con you into believing her b.s.....even if it makes no sense. Then, you get all confused and become a big ole doormat. When does she stop the con job? When the H stops putting up with it.
I would like to know what picture comes to your mind whenever you read those two words, "tough love". When you ask me how you should treat her, I wonder if you see tough love as being mean, cold, angry, sullen, etc. It's none of those negative actions.
I see tough love as treating as if I know she's having an A. It's about trying to regain her respect. I Agree that's not mean, angry etc., but I'd be a little bit less happy cashier.
Can you see yourself implementing the 37 rules without feeling you have compromised your dignity, integrity, moral/spiritual beliefs? I've read thousands of posts that say these rules are so hard. The rules aren't hard, but due to the emotional feelings of the LBS, it becomes tough to stick by them. It's tough to follow directions or instructions when our feelings are trying to dictate our actions. It's tough to do something that seems so counter-intuitive. Do you feel these rules are unrealistic or don't apply to your situation? What about the page I sent you on DB detaching? (I think it was you) Have you been able to follow those guidelines? Some LBS's don't even try, b/c it is a measure of tough love. But I encourage you to start with the 37 rules, and the other guidelines (detaching, boundaries, etc.) Cadet posted. I don't recall any of them suggesting that the LBS mistreat the other spouse. It may not be to their particular liking.......but that's why we call it tough love.
The 37 rules, including GAL, detaching and 180s has been my major focus. The rules are absolutely realistic. One thing I need to get better at is understanding I will not see any results from my D-bing for a while, if at all.
I can usually spot a WW as soon as the H begins to tell the story about their MR. I've tried to get you to open up and give us more, if possible, than just her adoption issues. You compared your M to most other people's MR. You said the sex trailed off and life got busy with work and raising a family.........but I still don't know how the two of you interacted with each other. One reason I have tried to share with you as much as I have (without repeating things I posted in the WW threads) is to help you see who she is........or for you to see that it doesn't describe her. Make sense? This is why it helps to know which of you were nurtured the relationship more. Who was the dominate spouse in the bedroom. Who was the leader in the marriage/family, and who called the shots. Which of you were laid back, and who got offended the easiest? Who made the first move to make up after a fight? Did you feel she was rejecting you sexually, or were you making excuses about it? When you had sex, was it really good sex for both of you? I'm not trying to make you feel uncomfortable, I'm just trying to get a better picture of the relationship. These are just some examples to help explain what might give us a better view.
I would say I called the shots with the family, and led the way on the bedroom. We are both laid back and don't get offended easily. The few fights we had, I'd say I was first to make up, majority of the time. I never felt rejected sexually, it was more my complacency/depression. Sex was satisfying for us both, one of the few things we actually about regularly.
Lack of respect kills attraction/desire in the wife, and that's why I bring it up so much. Did she show you respect in front of the children, her family, and friends.........or did she lose her temper and talk down to you? Did she embarrass you, make you the butt of jokes, make you feel put down, or treat you some other way that showed she didn't respect you as a man? Is she the type who won't bury the hatchet, forgive, and chose to remain bitter? If you say there was no evidence of disrespect for you.........and there is no sign of rebellion, then we can move on to something else. If you aren't sure if you've been disrespected in front of your kids, or others...........let me know. Seriously, some guys just don't know, b/c it's all they've ever seen in marriages.
Absolutely no outward signs of disrespect from her, in private or in front of the kids. We never yelled at each other. Sometimes I get the sense she knows what she is doing isn't the right thing, but she can't help herself.
Has her adoption/bio parents been the center of every problem in the MR? How long has she known about her bio parents? Were there M problems before she knew her birth mother, or did the M start falling apart afterwards? This is what I would consider. Waywardness is exactly what the dictionary says it is! Therefore, if a couple has been together 20 years, I'm thinking some of her resentment about her H would be made known to him. I'm thinking there would have been some signs that she wasn't all that happy with him and their MR, and she begin to demonstrate a lack of respect for him. Remember, for the WW......it's about anger and blaming her H for everything wrong in her life. Maybe nothing too big at first, but over time, it became more obvious. She may have a sense of entitlement, b/c he spoiled her and acted like her unpaid employee. That's when their sex life took a nose-dive.
Adoption has not been front and center in our M, but it has been to her to a degree. We found her birth mother 20 years ago. M problems started much later.
I'll tell you something that a lot of WW's have in common, especially when she is moving forward with her agenda. Have you ever been conned by someone? How did it make you feel? Well, the WW cons her H, at least she tries. I'm not saying she doesn't have some other legit issues, but she will con you into believing her b.s.....even if it makes no sense. Then, you get all confused and become a big ole doormat. When does she stop the con job? When the H stops putting up with it.
This was why I asked the tough love question. I don't feel like a doormat...yet. But I want to cut that off at the pass and know when/how to not put up with it.
Hi Wmlc. Following along. Applying a lot of the same care to my sitch (still in waiting mode).
How are things with the kids? They doing okay? You sound well. Staying on course.
Keep posting.
Hi CanBird. Kids really aren't aware of the sitch at the moment. S18 is off at school, and S11 sees W before bed some nights and she's back to run her biz before he gets up in the morning. Holidays will be tough, as we usually go all-out. It will be different this year, obviously. Going to be as strong and unemotional about whatever W decides for holidays. I will be with my boys, no matter what.
I know you have some similar concerns about your sitch, Stay strong, you can do this!
Minor update(s):
Discussed Thanksgiving plans with W. Kids will come with me to my family. and she will go to hers. She indicated she was more concerned about getting through Christmas, I validated and said I understand why that would be a concern to her.
Still no movement from W on finances, house etc. I just try and come and go "as if" and really don't do much but engage in friendly roommate small talk. Having to see her everyday isn't optimal (she runs g=her biz out of house), but it's the best we can do at this moment with trial separation. Tempting as it might be to push things along, I'm not going to do the heavy lifting.
Breathe. Lighthouse. Repeat.
She indicated she was more concerned about getting through Christmas, I validated and said I understand why that would be a concern to her.
Impressive. Validation without defending, fixing, etc.
Tempting as it might be to push things along, I'm not going to do the heavy lifting.
Breathe. Lighthouse. Repeat.
Well done!
I validated and said I understand why that would be a concern to her.
Perfect!
Hi Wmlc. I totally agree on the heavy lifting. Leave it. And your Lighthouse light is still shinning bright. It's got to be tough, I can't even imagine, having her work out of the home like she does. Well done. Handling this like a champ.
Yes, the holidays will be different. Sending you lots of positive vibes. Maybe do something a little extra special with you & your boys.
And how about you? Any new activities keeping you busy? Or old ones you reclaimed?
Be well & keep posting:)
Hi CB!
It's going to be difficult as the kids will have be told something after the holidays. They are pretty much in the dark as of now. This is by far the toughest part of the equation for me: the psychological damage that will be with my boys for the rest of their lives, due to their mother's own selfishness. I will be on guard not to snap at her as this unfolds, but it's going to naturally boil to the surface. That's unavoidable, but reactions are within my own control.
I don't want to say anything to them until we have some more definitive answers, but I may not have that opportunity.
As for me, I continue to GAL as much as I can. Joining a gym (I work out at home right now), catching up with old friends, and looking at taking some guitar lessons!
WMLC
This is by far the toughest part of the equation for me: the psychological damage that will be with my boys for the rest of their lives, due to their mother's own selfishness. I will be on guard not to snap at her as this unfolds, but it's going to naturally boil to the surface. That's unavoidable, but reactions are within my own control.
I have found this is my newest/toughest resentment that I have 3 months post-BD now that S4 is beginning to exhibit anxiety/separation issues from switching back and forth between us every 7 days.
I know it's not helpful at all to have these feelings, and I hope some veterans on here can provide us some good words of encouragement and insight on how to work through this.
Just so tough to know we are two able bodied, loving parents that I thought loved one another and now she's breaking all of that up so she can go be with a gentleman that has partial custody of a D2 and a very lengthy track record of cheating on any female he has any relationship with.
W,
I just want to say that I am know exactly how you feel right now with the holidays coming up and wondering if it will be the last that you spend together as a family. I also know about the selfishness in fact with mine it just continues even after D.
What I can tell you is that if you and your W handle this as amicably as possible your children won’t be psychologically damaged. So much of what you are going through and thinking doesn’t actually come true. I’m not going to lie, the process [censored], but you will get through it and live a good life if you choose.
Just push through day by day until things become clearer.
What I can tell you is that if you and your W handle this as amicably as possible your children won’t be psychologically damaged.
Look, I don't want to the gloom-and-doomer and rain on anyone's parade, here, but the children are
always damaged to one degree or another, even if they are older and even in so-called amicable divorces. And you can be as nice-nice friendly as you want, but D's that have at least some of their roots planted in infidelity are
never completely "amicable." There are hard feelings there and the kids pick up on it,
in addition to the always-present trauma of having one's family pulled apart. Do you want to make the process as least combative/abusive as possible? Of course. But don't for a second let yourself believe it will have
no psychological impact on the kids, because you'd be lying to yourself (or your kids are sociopaths). There's no way it
can't traumatize the kids. I've seen enough divorce up close and personal to know this intimately. It's one of the reasons that "busting divorce" and saving one's marriage is so worthwhile.
That said, yes, of course, you want to do what you can to minimize the trauma to your kids, and you can of course do things during and after the divorce to cushion the blow and let them know they are loved, and cherished, and that this isn't their fault.
But they are going to be traumatized. You need to understand this and be prepared for it so you can respond appropriately.
Sorry Jim I don’t agree. They are affected sure. Traumatized and psychologically damaged are too strong of words.
Also children brought up in homes of high conflict are just as affected.
Appreciate everyone's input re: kids and the impact of a D.
On another note, what has been everyone's experience and observations regarding physiological/chemical issues with their WAS and their current state of affairs? To my knowledge, my W 43 has not been been screened for pre-menopause, depression or had her hormone levels checked out. She has been complaining of abdominal/uterine discomfort for a couple of days and is going to her doctor today to get looked at.
To be clear, I am NOT looking for an answer from a doctor that would miraculously help my sitch, but if it were me, I'd certainly want to get checked out physically before I made life-altering decisions like those W has made/is considering.
Oh W if it were that easy. No doubt hormones are playing a part in it. I’ll give you an example from my sitch how all logic and reason is out the window.
My ex is very frugal. We would argue often about money. One of our go arounds was what temperature to keep the heat on because she paid the bill. Everything was about money.
So after all that she pays 8k to her lawyer at takes out a 30 year mortgage that will be paid when she’s 77.
The only thing they can focus on is how they feel right now and nothing else matters. Even if a doctor explained it to her it wouldn’t change anything.
Her constant thought is I’m not happy and WLMC is the reason.
Sorry Jim I don’t agree. They are affected sure. Traumatized and psychologically damaged are too strong of words.
Also children brought up in homes of high conflict are just as affected.
You can play semantics with it, but it is never NOT traumatizing to have your family broken up... even as an young adult.
And i came from a "high conflict" home (no violence, but plenty of conflict) and i can absolutely 100% tell you that it is still traumatizing to have your parents split. The scholarly literature on this point is clear-- all else being equal children are almost always "better off" when mom and dad don't split. The amount of "conflict" has to rise to the level of "extreme" and/or include actual abuse before the calculus flips. Hell, I've even known people(cousins) to come from actually abusive situations that were still broken up when their parents split. Their whole paradigm of existence, safety net, whatever you want to call it, has just been blown up. That "kids will be okay" or "better off" is a little white lie that WAS's or, in fact, any willing party to a divorce tells his/herself to ease their own psyche/conscience. How often do you see this narrative with the WWs? I have seen multiple cases involving friends/family where the parents tell themselves and others that "the kids are doing great" or "they're so strong we're so proud of them" while in actuality the kids are being torn up inside and, frequently, do not feel like they can confide their feelings to their parents but rather tell their friends and others... who then also don't tell the parents for fear of "interfering". World we live in.
Look, I'm not saying that children of divorce are all going to turn into psychopathic axe murderers or try to commit suicide at the drop of a hat,nor even to say that all marriages should be saved... but to say that your parents splitting up is "not traumatizing" borders on the nonsensical unless you come from an EXTREMELY dysfunctional home... which most are not. Dysfunctional, yes, to the extreme, no. We'll have to agree to disagree.
Sorry Jim I don’t agree. They are affected sure. Traumatized and psychologically damaged are too strong of words.
Also children brought up in homes of high conflict are just as affected.
You can play semantics with it, but it is never NOT traumatizing to have your family broken up... even as an young adult.
And i came from a "high conflict" home (no violence, but plenty of conflict) and i can absolutely 100% tell you that it is still traumatizing to have your parents split. The scholarly literature on this point is clear-- all else being equal children are almost always "better off" when mom and dad don't split. The amount of "conflict" has to rise to the level of "extreme" and/or include actual abuse before the calculus flips. Hell, I've even known people(cousins) to come from actually abusive situations that were still broken up when their parents split. Their whole paradigm of existence, safety net, whatever you want to call it, has just been blown up. That "kids will be okay" or "better off" is a little white lie that WAS's or, in fact, any willing party to a divorce tells his/herself to ease their own psyche/conscience. How often do you see this narrative with the WWs? I have seen multiple cases involving friends/family where the parents tell themselves and others that "the kids are doing great" or "they're so strong we're so proud of them" while in actuality the kids are being torn up inside and, frequently, do not feel like they can confide their feelings to their parents but rather tell their friends and others... who then also don't tell the parents for fear of "interfering". World we live in.
Look, I'm not saying that children of divorce are all going to turn into psychopathic axe murderers or try to commit suicide at the drop of a hat,nor even to say that all marriages should be saved... but to say that your parents splitting up is "not traumatizing" borders on the nonsensical unless you come from an EXTREMELY dysfunctional home... which most are not. Dysfunctional, yes, to the extreme, no. We'll have to agree to disagree.
My parents had nasty arguments and ended up divorced...
I was raised by a single mom, and fortunately, her love was more than enough to make up for it - she never dated / remarried. I feel like my hardships growing up made me stronger and more self-confident. However, the impact was that I had really nasty arguments in my relationship, and I don't want to have kids in fear of being here.
My WW had both biological parents growing up healthy middle class family, and she's a serial cheater...
Appreciate everyone's input re: kids and the impact of a D.
On another note, what has been everyone's experience and observations regarding physiological/chemical issues with their WAS and their current state of affairs? To my knowledge, my W 43 has not been been screened for pre-menopause, depression or had her hormone levels checked out. She has been complaining of abdominal/uterine discomfort for a couple of days and is going to her doctor today to get looked at.
To be clear, I am NOT looking for an answer from a doctor that would miraculously help my sitch, but if it were me, I'd certainly want to get checked out physically before I made life-altering decisions like those W has made/is considering.
Hi W. I can only answer what I've noticed about my H; male menopause .There's another term for it. and it does have to do with changes in certain hormone levels, signs of depression... (in men it's similar to mlc). But I WISH he'd see a doctor about his moodiness & depression. Not sure where his heads at now.
Back to your sitch.....
That's good your W is seeing a doctor for her discomfort. I'm not a doctor, but I am close to your wife's age, I can relate. We are all different, so it could be anything really. Be supportive if she needs anything. Did she bring up premedopause and the other tests? Just curious.
Hi CanBird,
I did ask her how she was and how it went when I saw her upon getting home from work. Turned out to be a fairly harmless polyp (which she's had before). No other tests or discussions to my knowledge.
W
On another note, what has been everyone's experience and observations regarding physiological/chemical issues with their WAS and their current state of affairs? To my knowledge, my W 43 has not been been screened for pre-menopause, depression or had her hormone levels checked out. She has been complaining of abdominal/uterine discomfort for a couple of days and is going to her doctor today to get looked at.
To be clear, I am NOT looking for an answer from a doctor that would miraculously help my sitch, but if it were me, I'd certainly want to get checked out physically before I made life-altering decisions like those W has made/is considering.
I'm sure you've seen that we often say to let go of the need to know "why". I've watched years and years of people trying to diagnose their WAS here and it never amounts to anything. Even if you could figure out if she has some kind of mental health ailment, she's not going to be interested in treatment because she is convinced that you are at fault for every problem great and small in her life and getting rid of you is the answer. Many people have sent their WAS info on MLC, menopause, the negative effects of long-term anti-depressant usage, etc. etc. and it absolutely falls on deaf ears.
That said, I am absolutely convinced that many sitches here are the direct result of a mid-life change. Call it menopause or whatever, but it seems quite clear to me that some people do change at some point in their life and change quite dramatically. My XW was one of them. A lof of LBS's are so confused because there is just no making any sense out of it. It's some chemical change in the brain or something, and it's notable that almost all LBS's describe their WAS as if they've been taken over by an alien. They cease being who they were and convert into someone we barely know or recognize. When I was in high school a friend had a traumatic head injury after getting hit by a car. He fully recovered, but he had a completely different personality. Was very bold and assertive before and became very meek, mild and quiet after. It's very similar to the "before" and "after" personality transition my XW went through (except in her case it was the opposite). Medical science does not understand why these things happen. Maybe they will some day and come up with a treatment, or better yet, preemptive steps to prevent it from happening in the first place.
Sorry Jim I don’t agree. They are affected sure. Traumatized and psychologically damaged are too strong of words.
Also children brought up in homes of high conflict are just as affected.
Nothing is an absolute. Some kids are relatively unaffected. Some are traumatized and psychologically damaged. I dated a girl when I was young that was traumatized and psychologically damaged from her parents D, including her mother's A and leaving for the OM. And her dad's subsequent remarrying. So it can happen.
But I also agree that children brought up in high conflict homes are just as affected.
Marital problems, whether it results in the end of the marriage or not, has an affect on the kids. From relatively minor.....up to and including traumatizing and psychological damaging.
Nothing is an absolute. Some kids are relatively unaffected. Some are traumatized and psychologically damaged. I dated a girl when I was young that was traumatized and psychologically damaged from her parents D, including her mother's A and leaving for the OM. And her dad's subsequent remarrying. So it can happen.
There are no guarantees in life, except that none of us get out of it alive. Not all marriages can or even should be saved, not all kids from happy unbroken homes become saints, and not all kids from broken homes become disasters. I just take exception to the blanket statement that "the children will always be better off" with a divorce than with conflict-ing parents as a justification or rationalization for D, or that "the children can always be shielded from psych trauma if the D is handled correctly." Neither statement is true. In fact, IIRC, MWD makes it a point to "bust" that as a "myth" in one of the early chapters of DB-ing. Is divorce sometimes the best or only solution to a troubled marriage. Sure.... But to one degree or another, no matter what the dynamics at play and no matter how "successful" the ultimate outcome for all involved, it is almost always traumatic to the children when the parents split.
So I think it comes to choice of words. Are my kids affected yes. Are they traumatized ABSOLUTELY NOT!
So I think it comes to choice of words. Are my kids affected yes. Are they traumatized ABSOLUTELY NOT!
But there are kids from D'd parents that are.
Each sitch is different. Each child is different. Some will deal with it better than others. I know my kids and I know they will be devastated if/when D happens. All I can do is protect and prepare as best as possible.
My point is more how Jim said go back at read it “that there is no way divorce won’t traumatize the kids”. Not speaking for anyone else but me. My kids are not traumatized.
Been gal-ing more last few weeks. Going out a minimum of 2-3 times a week. W stays at house with S11. Earlier today, she asked if I wanted her to make a pie to bring to my family’s celebration on Thanksgiving ( w is revered for her baking skills and people look forward to it). I just said, “No, we’re all set thank you.” Odd thing to ask, given our sitch, but I understand she’s in a strange place.
So W just texted. Said she wouldn’t be home for dinner today because she is meeting her parents (who are anti D) for dinner. Said she “ supposes she needs to get this conversation started at some point with them.” Also asked in same text “ how’s it going there?” and if we needed anything at store or if she can pick up my dry cleaning. Mixed message? MLC confusion? I have not responded.
W,
Just curious what you mean by mixed messages or MLC confusion?
LH,
Just making the mistake of trying to interpret her message, I suppose. Any suggestions on a response?
WMLC
W,
To be honest with you it doesn’t matter. Keep it short and have her pick up your dry cleaning if you want. My ex was famous for asking me if I wanted coffee so I accepted because I love coffee.
I am going to be honest with you. The talk with the parents who are anti D means there is probably no turning back.
The good news is it doesn’t really matter because recon if it happens is likely years away. Also, your W respects you so that is a must for recon. Feel free to ask me any questions because your sitch is very similar to mine.
I feel for you man and I promise you it does get easier.
LH,
Assuming she is actually meeting with her parents, I agree with what that likely means. She has used the “meeting my parents” excuse before.
If it weren’t for the kids, I’d be almost okay with this. I’ve lost my feelings for her to a degree during detachment. But when I see my kids hurting because of her decisions/selfishness, it’s going to be difficult for me to not hate her. Recon after that seems next to impossible.
I appreciate your responses and support!
W
W,
I know exactly how you feel about the selfishness. Here’s the thing though, do you really want to be married to someone who doesn’t want to be with you? I have friends in it for the kids and they are miserable.
I can almost guarantee you that you will go from hating her to being indifferent and then feeling sorry for her.
LH,
I absolutely do not want to just be in it for the kids. But I do want to protect them from going through this traumatic experience. It’s my parental instinct. I am accepting my fate more and more each day, and know it will be okay eventually. It’s just the unnecessary uneasiness due solely to her decisions that bothers me. Who knows what will
Happen down the road, but I would bet there will be a knock at my door at some point. But I’m sure as heck not waiting around for that.
W
W,
Yep. I bet your W is the last person you thought would do this? I bet she always put everyone else first? Now she feels she is entitled to the selfishness.
Absolutely positively do not wait around. Keeping moving forward.
If it helps... my kids aren’t traumatized either. Are they happy their parents split up? Of course not. But there is a difference between being unhappy and being traumatized. There was an adjustment period, for sure, but now that we are through it and they know that both their parents are okay (they take their cues from you btw) and they are used to the new routine, they are doing well.
I was a mess last year at this time and it pains me to think about how that affected them. It took months for my son to not closely scan my face to make sure I hadn’t been crying...and he often accused me of crying when I hadn’t been. I am much better now and he has stopped checking. He knows I am good and isn’t worried any longer.
Unfortunately....divorce is all too common in today’s society. This is a curse (kids who live with both parents do better statistically) and a blessing (children of divorce have plenty of friends who are in the same boat). I still hate that my kids have two homes and they do not get to grow up in an intact family the way I did... I always will. But I have accepted it and I know that now that I have, my kids are better off.
(((HUGS)))