Divorcebusting.com
Posted By: DaB35 Divorce because I betrayed her trust - PART 5 - 11/04/19 11:10 PM
Previous threads:

Part 1:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2861875#Post2861875

Part 2
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2863376#Post2863376

Part 3:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2864752&page=1

Part 4:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2867858#Post2867858

My current dilemma - carried over from Part 4 for ease of reference - is that W suggested we get our finance agreemnt done properly (we've informally agreed in writing who gets what, and what happens to money etc. We both discussed this amicably at the time in person).

She asked me to look into it. I gave her some basic info. She has said "OK if you can sort that all out that would be brill. Thanks. W."

Here is the issue currently re finances.

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2869808#Post2869808

Further comment:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2870729#Post2870729


Originally Posted by DaB35
Previous threads:

Part 1:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2861875#Post2861875

Part 2
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2863376#Post2863376

Part 3:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2864752&page=1

Part 4:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2867858#Post2867858

My current dilemma - carried over from Part 4 for ease of reference - is that W suggested we get our finance agreemnt done properly (we've informally agreed in writing who gets what, and what happens to money etc. We both discussed this amicably at the time in person).

She asked me to look into it. I gave her some basic info. She has said "OK if you can sort that all out that would be brill. Thanks. W."

Here is the issue currently re finances.

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2869808#Post2869808

Further comment:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2870729#Post2870729




Hey Dan

How you doing buddy? At the risk of repeating myself, and if its only 300 squid, get your L to draw up a proper document.

Did you have a think about any of the other points I made about seeing your L? If its just not for you, that's cool, but just let me know so I can stick to just telling you to smash those castanets, what to wear and encourage your gym routine!
Hi DS

I'm doing OK thanks.

Well if I do it, the £300 will come out the joint account anyway so effectively £150 each.

My worry is whether I do it to protect myself (and W to a degree). Neither of us want to be selfish - well I don't, I know that for sure at least! - and just take the lead on sorting this finance order out.

However, in the M/R I would have always taken the lead on finances of any sort, as W was always happy to not swot up on that kind of thing.

OR - by doing this entirely by myself - unless the L asks for info from W (which will be required) - I'm furthering the D along. But I don't trust W to do this correctly, that she'll forget to give out some piece of info which might affect both of us badly. I could be wrong but my gut is telling me otherwise.

If I push back to her completely - Another Stander suggested as an option, "I do not want a D, if you wish to pursue it I will not stand in your way, but don't ask me to do the work for you" - I've never been this forceful with W before so I'm not sure how she'd react, especially after she's breezily said, "If you can sort all that, that would be brill."
Therefore she is assuming I'll just do it.

I know if I take the lead on the court order then I will be confident it'll be done right, but then am I opening myself up to an argument? Is that worth it when we don't live together and haven't seen each other for over a month?


Gym is going well you'd be pleased to hear. Looking at some slim fit shirts in the pre-Xmas sales so I can look good. I'm putting cologne when I go to work still and looking after myself, eating well etc.
Hey Dan I understand where youíre coming from mate. If you do the property documents and you reconcile subsequently, you rip them up. If you donít reconcile then youíre protected.

Alternative would seem to be stalling by saying youíre simply too busy
Thanks DS

I think I might just contact the L. All I actually would need to do is:

- Contact them
- Pay (from joint account)
- Get W to send copy of list to me and then I pass this on
- They draft it presumably, we check it individually, change bits if needed, send back
- Final court order sent to each of us

I think this is (a) easier, (b) protects me and (c) doesn't antagonise W - as I think she might be looking for instances where I've messed up during the D process, and I haven't done anything of the sort so far. Or at least I think her enablers are telling her to watch out for me in case I pull any fast ones on her.

I don't think stalling would be productive for either of us; I'm not out to point score or sabotage things.

So I suppose I do this and then just get back to GAL and PMA. If only I could win the lottery soon - would put my house worries to rest!
Sounds like a good plan.
I agree, sounds fine.
OK, thanks eveyrone. I'll contact them in the morning.
Won't be nice to do, but on reflection I feel I'm just doing something that is necessary rather than speeding along the D and giving the impression I want it too.

I have ups and downs - I suppose eveyrone does. Sometimes I feel really excited and happy about things and how I've really focussed on myself these last few months and made some big steps in improving my self-worth and self-image.
Then there are the times when I feel a bit low, missing W, missing our life. She even said to me, "I've loved our life together." My main regret is I moved out of the house when W asked. I should have said no and remained there til she came back from her sister's place. She did throw stuff at me at the start of it all; I remember in May her saying, "Why haven't you driven up to Scotland to see me? Where's your passion?!" Frustrating non-logic there especially since she left me a note saying "I need space..."

I know I can't keep trying to guess what she's thinking/saying; it'll drive me mad and is not useful. But sometimes it does cross my mind - certainly less frequently than before though.

My sister is upset. She doesn't understand why W would not want to try to work on the M. I'm very thankful for her support though. I'm sad that W decided in 24 hours to kill off what we had built. Of course, I lied to her and I have remorse for it. But I feel I've now channelled that remorse into PMA and sorting my problems out.

Off to the gym soon for some weight therapy!
Originally Posted by DaB35
Thanks DS

I think I might just contact the L. All I actually would need to do is:

- Contact them
- Pay (from joint account)
- Get W to send copy of list to me and then I pass this on
- They draft it presumably, we check it individually, change bits if needed, send back
- Final court order sent to each of us

I think this is (a) easier, (b) protects me and (c) doesn't antagonise W - as I think she might be looking for instances where I've messed up during the D process, and I haven't done anything of the sort so far. Or at least I think her enablers are telling her to watch out for me in case I pull any fast ones on her.

I don't think stalling would be productive for either of us; I'm not out to point score or sabotage things.

So I suppose I do this and then just get back to GAL and PMA. If only I could win the lottery soon - would put my house worries to rest!



No worries mate anytime.

I'll echo the others in saying this is a good plan.
Great! smile

Nice evening today - gym followed by TV, then having a bit of a YouTube music session - classical mainly, but there's an amazing vid of Stevie Wonder and Sting doing Higher Ground & Roxanne together, which I'm enjoying now.

Just have to keep that PMA up to very high levels and keep the polite business-like comms with W going.

I am AMOAFWL.
Just found that that there is NMMNG Meet-Up group in London. I am tempted to go. I'll have a think about it and see if I can fit it in my weekly schedule; could be useful.

One thing I had remembered today suddenly was W accusing me of being a 'purveyor' of porn by being on a tube site, having a profile, maintaining that profile and contributing to the site by commenting etc. Doing her usual thing of taking a thought and discussing/stretching it to breaking point: saying there are lots of impressionable people looking at these sites every day and I was 'feeding' that world.
She is under the impression that I did it all because I didn't love her, didn't care about her, enjoyed it, preferred that world to my life with her, found my exes and her sister more attractive than her, didn't value the M, and would have had a PA if she didn't find out. She even told me after she discovered all this that she then worried if I was having an affair with my IC, a work colleague, or that I had a secret girlfriend in the town that I work in (40 miles from our house).

I understand her concerns of course; the mind would be going wild and her world would have come crashing down on discovering my lies. For example in one of the online chats I had I said I had a one night stand in college to impress the woman, when actually W was my first time at age 27. She now thinks I lied about her being my first. I even said I just had a GF and wasn't married. My IC says this was an example of compartmentalising the issue - separating W from it all, as I'd placed her on a pedestal and didn't want to associate her with it which is why I never discussed her in the chats, and kept it from her by almost blotting it out my mind for hours/days when I was with her or our friends.

I acknowledge she would naturally let thoughts run to certain conclusions. But at the time it was frustrating and so much to deal with, having all this thrown at me.

I realise I handled her accusations so badly during this process. I would immediately go on the defensive, no validating at all. I should have listened, empathised, and calmly told her the true situation.

Her family are rather dismissive of mental issues such as depression or anxiety etc. (despite the fact that, as mentioned in a previous thread, W has been trying to get her mum to go to IC for years yet her sister is always declaring in a rather unknind way, "Mum's mental!" or "Our mother is not a nice person."). They generally say stuff like, "Oh come on, just get on with it, stop with the poor-old-me."

When I initially explained to W that one of my issues was self-esteem and self-image she said "Everyone has that. I don't go on porn sites and send pics of myself to men to make me feel better though. Why'd you do it?!"

Not that helpful as it shames the person who is feeling down and doesn't advance any potential progress, when "OK, you're feeling [x]. That must be awful. What can I/we do to help you? How about we [x]?" would be far more useful.

I have to keep looking forward though; I am telling myself every day it is her loss as I am a very good guy. I have a much better view of myself and my self-worth has really increased, especially in the last couple of months.

Learning all the time!
One silver lining here - at work we got on the subject of the 1980s and I said I was feeling old when some of the younger colleagues said they hadn't heard of certain 80s songs. They asked me when I was born and when I told them I then said I was 36. Another person said, "Well, I'd never put you at 36. You look really, really good for your age! Well done!"

Nice little confidence boost there!

Another thing that crossed my mind is that W seems to have really affected chances of R as she has effectively broadcast what I did to her family and everyone in our friend circle near where we live. I know that it's only been 5 months etc. But just felt a little sad about that. If she didn't blow up and simply confronted me calmly, perhaps in front of my immediate family, then maybe things might have worked out differently. Now everyone who knew me in that area knows, in varying degrees of detail, what I did. Additionally, W has not heard about my IC updates so I guess is still re-writing history.

I know it's hard to predict what will happen in a few days let alone a few years. I'm just trying to stay the course with GAL, PMA, getting IC into practice and being generally positive.

Have contacted L about the finance order. Not an experience I'm looking forward to but there we go.

Right, back to the 80s music!
Originally Posted by DaB35

When I initially explained to W that one of my issues was self-esteem and self-image she said "Everyone has that. I don't go on porn sites and send pics of myself to men to make me feel better though. Why'd you do it?!"

Not that helpful as it shames the person who is feeling down and doesn't advance any potential progress, when "OK, you're feeling [x]. That must be awful. What can I/we do to help you? How about we [x]?" would be far more useful.


I had this exact experience. My offense was far worse than yours, of course, but, looking back, I don't feel that I had a chance to work through the "why" with my W. Like you said, I was embarrassed and ashamed and wanted it to go away as quickly as possible and stop hurting her so I took it all on myself, every part was my choice, my fault, she had no impact whatsoever on the situation. I wish that we'd approached the situation differently.

Originally Posted by DaB35

I have to keep looking forward though; I am telling myself every day it is her loss as I am a very good guy. I have a much better view of myself and my self-worth has really increased, especially in the last couple of months.

Learning all the time!


I'm glad that you are still looking in the mirror, learning, and so on. One of the things that I wonder about the WAH/WAWs vs those on these forums is whether they will come out the other side of this better than when they went into it. Reading your posts makes me confident that you are stronger and that gives me hope for myself, too.
Originally Posted by DaB35
One silver lining here - at work we got on the subject of the 1980s and I said I was feeling old when some of the younger colleagues said they hadn't heard of certain 80s songs. They asked me when I was born and when I told them I then said I was 36. Another person said, "Well, I'd never put you at 36. You look really, really good for your age! Well done!"

Nice little confidence boost there!

NICE!!! It's awesome to be noticed. And there's nothing wrong with appreciating music across multiple decades smile
Originally Posted by DaB35

Another thing that crossed my mind is that W seems to have really affected chances of R as she has effectively broadcast what I did to her family and everyone in our friend circle near where we live. I know that it's only been 5 months etc. But just felt a little sad about that. If she didn't blow up and simply confronted me calmly, perhaps in front of my immediate family, then maybe things might have worked out differently. Now everyone who knew me in that area knows, in varying degrees of detail, what I did. Additionally, W has not heard about my IC updates so I guess is still re-writing history.

I've wondered/worried about this, too. That the more our Ws bash us to our friends and family, the tougher it would be for them to walk it back. Based on the stats that 1/3 of divorced couples attempt to reconcile and approximately 1/3 of those succeed, it has to be possible (since anger is pretty common from what I've seen and heard) and, by not taking that same path (calling our Ws "crazy" and so on) we at least aren't creating additional barriers. I regularly think back to the castle and the picnic metaphor that is used so much here - W may build higher and thicker walls, may even throw some things at me, but I'm going to have a great time at my picnic (might even put some New Order on :)), and she can decide if she wants to participate. Having said all of that, I still share your fear.

One other thing to consider - W has been making some stuff up about me, more than exaggerations. On the one hand, it angers me that she's slandering me and sad that it's how she feels. On the other, my taking the high road consistently seems to be swaying people to the idea that this isn't as black and white as it may seem on the surface. To be clear, I'm not telling them that she's wrong, I'm showing it with my behaviors. She is holding certain things hostage but I'm not reciprocating - these actions seem to be adding up to those around and, hopefully, she will one day see that the narrative she has for me is not aligned with reality. In your case, you participated in an activity that most people participate in - I'm not saying that it's right or wrong, that's for you to decide. But I have to imagine that some people listening to her are a bit confused as to why she's throwing away an M over that (especially considering the changes you are making).

I'd be curious as to what others have experienced with WAW/WAHs dragging names through dirt and then ultimately reconciling.
Crdcheck thanks.

Yes I didn't get a chance to really discuss the 'why' with W. She was angry and my IC had only just begun so we hadn't explored lots of stuff at the time. W is extremely impatient and lazy, so she demanded a full-on explanation after my first 2 sessions of IC. She was not happy when I couldn't supply that.

I agree; I wish we approached the situation differently. Her to not broadcast it to all and sundry, and me to DB quicker and validate when she was talking to me during the 'softer' period we had together in June.

Originally Posted by crdcheck

I'm glad that you are still looking in the mirror, learning, and so on. One of the things that I wonder about the WAH/WAWs vs those on these forums is whether they will come out the other side of this better than when they went into it. Reading your posts makes me confident that you are stronger and that gives me hope for myself, too.


Yes I wonder this too. Once D is done, will my W feel she is stronger? Will she feel there is a huge me-shaped gap in her life for a long time? This hit her hard; she went on ADs and lost weight etc. I felt awful for her and really wanted to help but couldn't. All I could do was take a back seat and hear about it secondhand or from her a few days/weeks after the fact.

Yes you'll definitely feel better about yourself. You're not an evil person; you're not an abuser or anything. You have just made a mistake, like lots of people on these forums.

Originally Posted by crdcheck

NICE!!! It's awesome to be noticed.


My thoughts too! It was nice to hear that today. I needed a little lift.


Originally Posted by crdcheck
By not taking that same path (calling our Ws "crazy" and so on) we at least aren't creating additional barriers. I regularly think back to the castle and the picnic metaphor that is used so much here - W may build higher and thicker walls, may even throw some things at me, but I'm going to have a great time at my picnic (might even put some New Order on :)), and she can decide if she wants to participate. Having said all of that, I still share your fear.


Absolutely. I can understand how fearful it can be for you too. I am deliberately not creating barriers to her, or anyone for that matter. Just moving along my little path. Not really sure what's up ahead, but I'm taking things slow, trying new things, getting myself to feel good mroe frequently and worry less about general life.

Originally Posted by crdcheck
One other thing to consider - W has been making some stuff up about me, more than exaggerations. On the one hand, it angers me that she's slandering me and sad that it's how she feels. On the other, my taking the high road consistently seems to be swaying people to the idea that this isn't as black and white as it may seem on the surface. To be clear, I'm not telling them that she's wrong, I'm showing it with my behaviors.
She is holding certain things hostage but I'm not reciprocating - these actions seem to be adding up to those around and, hopefully, she will one day see that the narrative she has for me is not aligned with reality. In your case, you participated in an activity that most people participate in - I'm not saying that it's right or wrong, that's for you to decide. But I have to imagine that some people listening to her are a bit confused as to why she's throwing away an M over that (especially considering the changes you are making).


I see what you mean. I have no idea what she is saying. None of the friends I have up near where our house is have spoken to me for nearly 6 months now. I'm doing the same as you - take the high road, not out of spite but to demonstrate that I'm not a deadbeat loser or hopeless cheater she might be painting me as.

A part of me fears that others my think of that new-found confidence as arrogance, that I don't care how I've hurt her. That isn't true. I am not going round badmouthing W to anyone. I have worked out some flaws of hers and how my NGS made me let those slide even when they'd really upset me.

The length of time that I did what I did and how I concealed it from W for such a long time was definitely wrong, and I realise this. Yes I do think there are some that might question her intention to throw a M away over it, when I have not had a PA or met up with anyone or kissed anyone. I'm not downplaying anything but just stating the facts.

As for the musical picnic, I'll also put New Order on, and add Tears for Fears, The Police, Talking Heads, Prefab Sprout, and Toto to the list.

[I've just really got into Genesis' Trick of the Tail album - not 80s I know but still amazing! Makes me want to buy some Moog bass pedals. I love the opening bass note of Dancing on a Volcano!]
Found a few old threads with helpful thoughts on them:

State your goals (consistent with your beliefs) and come up with a plan of action. If your actions work keep doing it, if not try something new. Open your mind and don't let fear hold you back from acting.

If you love your spouse and let them go. It's not lying to do that, even though you don't feel that is the best thing to do. Understand your feelings, know why you feel the way you do and take healthy productive action based on your goals.

You have a choice in how you handle things. You can choose the path of love, self-respect, healthy communication, forgiveness and responsibility for your self. Or you can choose to be a victim, make others responsible for your feelings and let things happen to you. "Love your neighbor as yourself."

Don't let your feelings define you. Let your actions which is a sign of your character. Handle it.


I feel I have let my W go. I admit I have not dropped the rope entirely because I think about her still and occasionally wonder what she's saying to others in her circle about me. However, we are not talking very much at all unless it's about progress on the D or the house sale. I am not pursuing by reaching out or pleading. I do miss her still though. I have tackled my issues and am working on them; so far so good really.

The path I'm currently on is I think the right one - my actions for myself are working, and I do think they are healthy and productive. I'm working on letting my actions be more natural and just part of everyday conversation with friends and family ("I can do that when I get back from the gym" etc.).

And they may (I say may because the WAS has the free will to just never look back even if we hate that thought) look back and see that a strong, desirable individual has replaced their clingy, distressed and depressed spouse.

I don't know what she is thinking. As a WAS she does not show any sign of R, although since we've not seen each other in 2 months and hardly spoken in that time, I guess she doesn't know what I've been up to. I was a WH to a degree and now a LBH.

I'm not blaming W for what I did, but we certainly both contributed issues to the M; neither of us communicated this effectively enough at the right time and in the right way. If she were upset with me she'd rant, slightly belittle and lecture me, whereas I'd bury the frustrations I was experiencing from her actions.

My quandary is - I don't know if I should 'give up' on her or M, or stick to 'hope for the best, prepare for the worst'. She has no compunction to put in effort to R or discuss things. I do. She is seemingly still stuck on the "I can't believe you'd do this to me. You clearly don't love me" stance.
She wants D. I don't. I am co-operating but not speeding it along. Not sure if her feelings back in July/August of saying she was feeling sad and devastated that 'it's all ended' and losing a lot have changed. I am not sure how she will react (or me for that matter) when we see each other again. I don't know when that will be. It's possible we don't see each other til the new year.

I know that a lot of DBers here feel my W has reacted strongly and things have moved way too quick without much reasoning, although I accept my wrongdoings wholly. Despite this, I am certainly not feeling the same levels of anxiety, stress, worry, poor self-image, and to a degree depression that I concealed from W which led to all this mess.
Need to let W I'm going to the house to collect stuff and re-scheduled electrician to fix smoke alarms (there was a mix up last week and they didn't come on the right day). She is out Friday evenings until about 10pm so won't see her.

We have not seen each other for nearly 2 months. Very infrequent texting now. No phonecalls.

I'm going to text:

"Hi, I will be at the house this evening as need to collect a few things. Elec like to come [date] in the morning, waiting for them to confirm time. Hope you are well and have a good weekend."

Is that last sentence advisable? I'm thinking "act as if", cheerful and not cold/off-hand, just polite. I don't see it as pursuing - correct?
Sounds fine, you can never go wrong with "polite"!
This is what I don't like - I work so hard at improving myself and GALing and everything which goes really well, and I feel really good, then when I need to send a simple innocuous text I get quite concerned at how she might react!

Guess this is normal (?!).
Yes it's normal. I say this fairly frequently around here, but no one thing got you here and no one thing will make or break things. It took a long time to get to this point and will take a long time to resolve it. Don't sweat the small convos. Try to listen and validate and be polite, and if you are and she reacts negatively then you know it's because of some internal conflict and not anything you said or did.
Went to the house and got my stuff. The window has now been repaired.

I noticed W had chucked a lot of our cute animal ornaments in the garage - including a few my parents bought us - which made me sad. I took some of them home with me. The house feels strange to be in. There was no mail for me so I didn't have to be there long. I didn't want to do a nostalgic walk around as I knew that would upset me, so just did what I came to do and left. Probably there for only half an hour.

She texted back around 8pm saying: "Hi, I'm not really around at the house very much anymore so maybe you could be in for them instead? I've got work on Monday."

[Monday a.m. was when the electrician was going to come round to fix smoke alarms].

Bit annoyed at this. Especially since a few weeks ago she told me that she'd be dividing her time between staying at her brother's house and our house during the week. Now she's changed that plan it seems.

I can't simply take time off work (unpaid) to make a 2 hour round trip for this. Not sure how to respond to her; she isn't expressing any emotion there, so it doesn't look like it's possible to validate her statement. I'll have to call the Elec guy again anyway; I can't come on Monday at short notice that's for sure.



So not a negative reaction from her, but not a positive or even neutral one either! Seems W has certainly checked out of the M and 'us' completely.

I feel frustrated.
Originally Posted by DaB35
Not sure how to respond to her; she isn't expressing any emotion there, so it doesn't look like it's possible to validate her statement. I'll have to call the Elec guy again anyway; I can't come on Monday at short notice that's for sure.


H"I can't come on Monday. I already have commitments."
Thanks R2C. Yes I'll definitely say that at least.

Do I call her out on/question the fact that she's changed her original plan that she mentioned (sometimes being at the house and the rest of the time at her brother's) or not? I'm guessing not, as it won't achieve anything.

Should I also ask her if she's at the house at all during the week these days?

What about -

"I can't be there on Monday. I have other commitments. So you're saying you are not in the house at all during the week?"
"I can't be there on Monday. I have other commitments. So you're saying you are not in the house at all during the week?"

Less words is almost always better.
Right, ok.

So what happens if she comes back with something like, "Well I'm not there either so you'll have to re-arrange to a time you can do."

I have to be at the house on 22nd November anyway, again to pick stuff up (can't do it any other day before), so I could re-arrange it then to coincide for ease, then I don't have to take a special trip to the house just to let an Electrician in.

How about "...other commitments. I'll re-arrange for an evening when I know I will be there to collect more things."

That solves the issue itself and doesn't inconvenience either of us...

I'm finding it really does work to use the less it more approach. I try it at work now, and when texting other friends. It helps get things done quickly, and to my satisfaction (and my boss's too) which is good. Tiny things like this are really helping me move forward; thanks everyone for your collective advice here.

I just find W so distant now. It's like she genuinely doesn't care. WAS indeed.

Additional...

Just logged into Facebook to message a friend of mine about the weekend, and on my home/news feed my W's business page has come up (obviously I had liked it when she set it up originally) saying:

"Due to a recent injury [business] is temporarily closed. I am sorry for the inconvenience, but rest assured it will re-open again in a few months time. Many thanks for your understanding!"

Didn't know about this injury - should I say sorry to hear about it? Or will that look odd considering she hasn't told me directly?

Other people - including mutual friends and her sister - have commented offering support. Don't worry, I have not even thought about commenting!!

Is this 'injury' her actually disguising our D which is in progress (only about 6 weeks til the absolute is granted) and she is just waiting until it's all sorted out before resuming business?
Hi DaB35,

Originally Posted by DaB35
should I say sorry to hear about it?

No, she's your ex, and if she wanted your support she would have told you. wink

I'd unfollow the page so you don't get any more notifications.

Originally Posted by DaB35
Is this 'injury' her actually disguising our D

It's plausible, but we can't read her mind.
Originally Posted by DaB35
Is this 'injury' her actually disguising our D which is in progress (only about 6 weeks til the absolute is granted) and she is just waiting until it's all sorted out before resuming business?
Most likely.


Do not comment.
Thanks both.

I've unfollowed the page.

Do you have any further thoughts on my response to her text a couple of posts above?

Trying to calm myself with some music I like before going to read in bed just before going to sleep.
Originally Posted by DaB35
How about "...other commitments. I'll re-arrange for an evening when I know I will be there to collect more things."

I'd set expectations for the timeline, e.g., "a few weeks from now."
Originally Posted by DaB35
So what happens if she comes back with
Lets just deal with what she does text.
I know this all shouldn't bother me, but I really hate it all.
Worst year of my life but also hte best in some respects as I'm finally turning things around, but at the same time I feel W is totally closed off to me. I just have to sit out the storm and see what is on the other side.

I will just continue to have my picnic outside W's castle and keep the lighthouse going in the background.
MIni Journal

At this stage it feels like W's castle has absolutely no windows at all, let alone a raised drawbridge. At least she is not throwing things at me anymore. She is absolutely NC unless necessary.

I feel like we should be talking more, but I don't want to reach out deliberately. I must stay detached and maintain that. I would like her to see what she is missing eventually, although that is not my main goal as I improve myself.

My resolve - still have my picnic outside and continue to keep the PMA up.
Had a nice GAL day today - good gig and had quite a bit of downtime so got some work done in the gaps when I wasn't needed. There were people in my section that I hadn't met before so I forced myself to talk to them - I wouldn't normally and would shy away and deliberately not be talkative. It was good and not the horrible ordeal I thought it would be. The five of us went to dinner in a Greek restaurant near where we were playing; I tried a few things I wouldn't normally try so it was good for me to branch out. smile

W contacted me by text in the afternoon saying the estate agent has recommended we drop the sale price by 2%. She asked if I could confirm this by email. I just said, "Thanks for letting me know. I'll email when I get in tonight." She replied "OK Thanks." I emailed the estate agent and CC'd W in to prove I did send it.

Recognised someone else in the orchestra - he's an acquaintance of W's too. I know they met up in August (as friends - he's in a R with another woman already) to go to a concert, as W told me. He didn't mention W at all, just asked how I was. I said good and that I was keeping myself busy. We had a few jokes and then talked about the concert etc. Was nice not to bring W up in conversation.
GAL for today was gym (including a rather brutal cycling class lol), clear out wardrobe, clean parents' house, bit of work, reading, YouTube session listening to music and analyses/critiques of certain songs (well, I find it interesting!) and relaxing TV this evening. Not a bad day really, just got on with stuff.

I still find mornings the hardest. Night time is easy; I read or watch TV, do some deep breathing exercises, and then fall asleep. Fine. During the day is ok as I'm now busying myself more often and am used to it. Mornings are hard as I wake up and W still pops into my head. I think about her but I don't feel intense pain or loss. I miss her, but the intensity and pain of that has faded slightly.

It's strange. I feel like the last 8 years were a dream and I am not married and still single and living at my parents. Then I remember that I a wonderful connection with a brilliant woman for 8 years and she was everything to me. Now she hardly speaks to me. Her family and friends have literally ignored me for 6 months.

Just a thought to cast out here:
My regret was that I moved out. She asked for space and I gave it to her. I should have stayed and talked, but then at the time I was unaware of this site/forum so would not have had a clue how to deal with everything. I wouldn't be validating or have analysed myself enough in IC.

I've said before that it appears we have both distanced ourselves from each other, rather than just her ordering me out the house and I'm detached physically from her. She is WAW and I am LBH but I was also WH to a degree.
I wonder if I need to be concerned about doing anything more than simply GAL and improving my own self-esteem (much higher now); should I continue to not reach out to W unless I absolutely need to?

I have no idea if she is missing me. I guess I'm just asking for re-assurance that everything I've done up to now has been right. I think the D will go through. She has not spoken about R or our MR at all, for months now. She has seemingly switched off her love for me within a matter of days, but I can't see how anyone can do that when we've been through so much happiness together.

I will keep enjoying my picnic...
Feeling less good today.

The phrase "what a waste" comes to mind. W is just checked out from me and us. I am angry at her for not wanting to try and make things work. She is quite a lazy person sometimes and would rather not do something if it made her life easier. I'm sad that she doesn't feel compelled to fight for M.

She has asked me to pay the window repairers (emailed me the invoice). The money will come out of our joint account. I will pay this as it is a repair to the house which was necessary as it's for sale still.

I need to pay for the financials consent order this week. It looks like I get a few basic questions about the two of us, and then they ask for our agreements/etc. It is done on the basis that we have already agreed what to do, which we have. It makes it all the more real. I'm not sure if this means we will need to see each other again before the court order is finalised.

Feeling a bit down and annoyed.
Hey Dan sorry youíre feeling down mate. Itís a roller coaster isnít it.

Absolutely donít reach out to her unless absolutely warranted or she initiates. Keep dB stay the course m

I think if youíd have stayed and talked would she have wanted to talk? Probably not.

Good on you for deciding to go with consent orders

Keep up the gym work and smashing those castanets!
Thanks DS - I was worried I might be appearing too cold to her or that by not contacting her very often it gives the impression that I'm 'done' with her. When in reality I want to fight and have hope still.

When I was at the house on Friday evening, I noticed some paperwork for a little cottage in the next village near our house. £165,000. She won't be able to afford that unless her parents give her almost £50,000 and she gets the absolute maximum mortgage possible (in the UK it's roughly 4 times your salary). Thought that was interesting. I probably should not have snooped, but it was in a pile of letters on the dining table which is where the mail goes and I only wanted to see if I had any mail for myself.

You're right, if I stayed, she would have probably just shouted at me, made us go round in circles etc. And at the time I wouldn't be validating or anything DB-tastic, so it'd have been a waste of my time as I'd just be defending, not listening DB-style, and I would have pushed her away further more quickly.

So - I think the best course for me is to keep improving myself and do everything well. That way, when/if she next sees me, she'll see that I've really turned myself around and done a lot of soul-searching and work. Perhaps then she'll have second thoughts. But by that point, maybe I'll have moved on, I don't know. Hard to say of course, but I want to have a chance to show her the new me. I stress I am not just doing everything for her benefit. It is only for my benefit and others are noticing gradually too.

I'm sad that she has been influenced by others during this process, and appears to have gone with her emotions without much reasoning. I know her sister and friend have really driven this and given her the "you're amazing and you'll be ok" talk.

I guess I just keep inviting my friends and family to my picnic then, and keep going?

Actually, I haven't done castanet practice for a couple of weeks - been too busy! I'll make time this week!
Originally Posted by DaB35
At this stage it feels like W's castle has absolutely no windows at all, let alone a raised drawbridge. At least she is not throwing things at me anymore. She is absolutely NC unless necessary.

I feel like we should be talking more, but I don't want to reach out deliberately.


If she's NC then stay NC. NC "feels" like the wrong thing to do but it is actually very helpful for the WAS. When the LBS can remove themselves from the equation it helps the WAS to sort out their feelings and realize that maybe the LBS isn't the cause of all the bad things in their life after all.
Nice point, AS, thanks.

Like I say we are not trading insults or being horrible to one another. I'm certainly not bad mouthing her to all and sundry (no idea what she's saying though, but I've decided not to worry about that anymore). I am saying that I'm sad she wanted to end it so quickly and didn't want to at least try.

I've told some of my family that I am upset she shamed me by telling practically everyone we both know near where we live what I did in varying degrees of detail, from just saying "he cheated on me" to full blown showing them screenshots of my online activity plus screenshots of the online chats.

However, my IC has said that now the activity is out, there is no more shame since there's nothing for me to be secretive about. It has been liberating certainly in a weird way. Made it easier to move away from that stuff. She said she didn't believe I could do it cold turkey, but I did.

I'm definitely not the cause of everything bad in her life. She is such an emotional person - sometimes I found her quite difficult at times. Her upbringing and family dynamic has something to do with it too. We were way too opposite in those respects: she was extremely heart-on-sleeve, emotionally reactive, whereas I was introverted and logical and I never have arguments with my sister - we see eye to eye on basically everything.
I'm addressing why I couldn't be vulnerable to her and open up - a real shame I couldn't. But we were so well matched in so many other respects. That is why my sister feels so sad; she couldn't see why W wouldn't weigh up everything and see that it was worth fighting for.

If she does bring anything up, I can at least tell her why I felt I couldn't speak out as I've discussed that now in IC.
I am finding myself looking at everybody's hands when I walk around in public, or even watch people on TV - checking if they're wearing a ring or not and which hand it's on. Is that weird?!
I do exactly the same. It [censored].
Originally Posted by DaB35
I am finding myself looking at everybody's hands when I walk around in public, or even watch people on TV - checking if they're wearing a ring or not and which hand it's on. Is that weird?!


I picked it up as a habit. Not necessarily a good one, mind you, but like to know my surroundings. Part of people-watching, I suppose
Thatís crazy. Iíve been doing that for several months now. But for some reason it seems unhealthy.
Yes I think I should stop doing that. Strangely comforting to know that others do it too!

Woke up a little sad and frustrated this morning. Thought about how much I really want everything to work; how I am sad that W simply gave up and that she didn't want to even try MC or piecing for a few months; how frustrated I am that she's stubbornly going through with D because everyone in her circle has said it's what she should do. She has taken the "easy option" (her words).

My view is that if there are problems in a marriage we shouldn't run away unless there are obvious risks of actual physical danger (e.g. abuse), or where things have been going on for so long without change. I am sad that she didn't think to say, "OK, I'm really upset and hurt that you've done what you did, but you must be unhappy with something in your life for this to take place. What can we do about it?"

I still find it hard to understand how she could switch off all feelings for me and mention D within literally 24 hours. She has acted completely emotively and not had any period alone for reflection. She hysterically broadcast everything to lots of people all at once, and now I feel she can't go back and change her mind. I feel upset at that, but I guess what's happened is I've had time to work on myself without her knowledge. I've really changed - apologies for that excruciatingly cliched phrase there - and shaken a lot of emotional baggage off my mind.

I remember feeling upset when I updated her on my 2nd IC session and I mentioned that communication was an issue and she just said, "Hmmph...it's so American! All about feelings. What a load of rubbish!" I thought, 'thanks for your support.' Actually, being in the throes of NGS I didn't respond to that remark of hers; I was just hurt. But then I didn't know about DBing or boundaries etc at the time.

I want to tell her that everything 'good' I did in the marriage - all the hugs, kisses, emotional and financial support, cards, presents (for her 30th birthday I hired a Tesla Model S for the weekend - I remember the look on her face when it pulled up outside our house), my proposal to her, little surprises I arranged for our wedding, everything - was genuine. It was not out of guilt because of my affliction going on in the background for years. I honestly wanted to make her happy and be a good H. I know I can't tell her this as that is pursuing of the worst kind. I don't know if there will ever be a time when I can say all of that to her face.

I think my main love language is quality time - simply being near the person and feeling safe together - whereas hers was words of affirmation and also physical touch. How sad that I've only found this out now and can't bring this up.

I know my posts a week or so ago were very positive and upbeat. Just on a low ebb recently.
Just watched the comedy show that I went to see get recorded in June - it was broadcast this week. I appeared on screen during some shots of the audience - that's my 3 seconds of fame ticked off!

Feel a little better nowm but still mindful of what I wrote this morning above ^^^^
Hey Dan

Sorry you're still feeling down buddy. I hear what you're saying about your views and thoughts above. I too still have that rollercoaster, ebb and flow emotional journey.

Like you pointed out, you can't bring these things up with your W or tell her. She doesnt care right now. As the vets here repeat, it's about actions, not words. Keep DB'ing, keep posting and keep GALing.

How's gymwork going? Have you upped the weights yet? I'd get one of those body scan scales so you can track your progress with weight, BMI, percentages etc. Did you end up going to that NGS meet up?

Cheers DS
Hi DS

Yes I absolutely know I cannot tell W anything like that. I know that means I'm not detached yet. Work in progress!

The gym I go to runs a 6-week 'review' for users. I'm now at 11.8% body fat, my water content is 60% (very high, which is good), BMI is currently 21, bone density is 3 which is good apparently, and finally visceral fat - i.e. excess fat round organs etc. - is 4, on a sliding scale where anything from 1-12 is considered 'healthy' or 'no problem'. Essentially the gym person said to me, "you're doing fine, just keep going and gradually up the weights."
Have upped the weights slowly - 25 to 30kg, 35 to 40kg etc. Don't want to injure myself unnecessarily!

I can't seem to find a date for the NGS meet up that coincides with my schedule - I'm obviously GALing too much lol!
I would like to go as one of the NGS remedies is to 'hang out' with other men, so I know it will be useful. Perhaps another time, but it's certainly on my list.

I know she doesn't care right now - well at least she is projecting that. No idea what is going on in her head though, which she may not be revealing to anyone else.

Just waiting for a response from L regarding a few queries I have about the finance court order at present. W hasn't chased me for this since last week so I guess it's not an issue. I'm not pushing the L for an answer.
Originally Posted by DaB35

Woke up a little sad and frustrated this morning. Thought about how much I really want everything to work; how I am sad that W simply gave up and that she didn't want to even try MC or piecing for a few months; how frustrated I am that she's stubbornly going through with D because everyone in her circle has said it's what she should do. She has taken the "easy option" (her words).

Yep, I'm with you on this. You can be feeling great and then hit a slump. I try to remember that when I felt good, I didn't imagine feeling bad, so when I feel bad, even though it's tough to imagine feeling good, it will come.
Originally Posted by DaB35

My view is that if there are problems in a marriage we shouldn't run away unless there are obvious risks of actual physical danger (e.g. abuse), or where things have been going on for so long without change.

The first part of that is certainly true - the data says that, unless there is physical or drug abuse, everyone is better off making it work ("Should I Try to Work It Out?: A Guidebook for Individuals and Couples at the Crossroads of Divorce"). Don't bother trying to get your W to read it - she'll do what mine said "it's all biased, cherry-picked". Uh huh.
Originally Posted by DaB35

I still find it hard to understand how she could switch off all feelings for me and mention D within literally 24 hours. She has acted completely emotively and not had any period alone for reflection. She hysterically broadcast everything to lots of people all at once, and now I feel she can't go back and change her mind. I feel upset at that, but I guess what's happened is I've had time to work on myself without her knowledge. I've really changed - apologies for that excruciatingly cliched phrase there - and shaken a lot of emotional baggage off my mind.

Our Ws were checked out before the dropped by bomb. Maybe for other good reasons they didn't share, maybe for "bad" reasons (e.g. OM). Regardless, no one rational throws an M away over a first offense (your case, not mine) and when the other person is willing to work on the issue.
Originally Posted by DaB35

I remember feeling upset when I updated her on my 2nd IC session and I mentioned that communication was an issue and she just said, "Hmmph...it's so American! All about feelings. What a load of rubbish!" I thought, 'thanks for your support.' Actually, being in the throes of NGS I didn't respond to that remark of hers; I was just hurt. But then I didn't know about DBing or boundaries etc at the time.

You may think of more examples like this. Even pre-cheating I remember telling my W things and she blew them off. Like, "Hey, I read this book about NGS and it sounds kind of like me." "You, nice? You are a jerk, and now obviously confused".
Originally Posted by DaB35

I want to tell her that everything 'good' I did in the marriage - all the hugs, kisses, emotional and financial support, cards, presents (for her 30th birthday I hired a Tesla Model S for the weekend - I remember the look on her face when it pulled up outside our house), my proposal to her, little surprises I arranged for our wedding, everything - was genuine. It was not out of guilt because of my affliction going on in the background for years. I honestly wanted to make her happy and be a good H. I know I can't tell her this as that is pursuing of the worst kind. I don't know if there will ever be a time when I can say all of that to her face.

You and me both. Maybe NGS? I don't think that it was too much pursuing, we just also need to make sure our needs are voiced early.
Thanks CRD, good points.

Originally Posted by crdcheck

Yep, I'm with you on this. You can be feeling great and then hit a slump. I try to remember that when I felt good, I didn't imagine feeling bad, so when I feel bad, even though it's tough to imagine feeling good, it will come.


I agree. I don't end up wallowing for hours and hours; it's more a 15 minute feeling of 'oh yeah this is happening isn't it', and I feel sad about that. I must say that neutral and/or positive emotions are outweighing the negative even now, when D is still in progress.

Originally Posted by crdcheck
Our Ws were checked out before the dropped by bomb. Maybe for other good reasons they didn't share, maybe for "bad" reasons (e.g. OM). Regardless, no one rational throws an M away over a first offense (your case, not mine) and when the other person is willing to work on the issue.


Technically it is not a first offence. She caught me twice before, but nothing this serious (first time spotted a TV channel that I forgot to switch, and second she found a web page open on my phone, nothing saved). The issue with her was the concealment of it all. Yes I am absolutely willing to work on the issue and I have done - I've basically overcome it already, and now just on a path of improving my self-esteem (gym, GAL, etc.).

Originally Posted by crdcheck
You and me both. Maybe NGS? I don't think that it was too much pursuing, we just also need to make sure our needs are voiced early.


Yes, my downside was that I never strove to get my needs met. I would put up with not having them met. Not just in my M but in all previous relationships. I'd always back down or go with the woman's choice for an easy ride even though I was hesitant or not convinced with things sometimes.

I do wish W would reconsider. I wonder if D has to happen and then she gets to hear about my actions and changes and how I've improved myself. Maybe then she'll wonder what would have happened had she stuck it out and not gone crazy and told everyone.
Originally Posted by DaB35

I do wish W would reconsider. I wonder if D has to happen and then she gets to hear about my actions and changes and how I've improved myself. Maybe then she'll wonder what would have happened had she stuck it out and not gone crazy and told everyone.

I keep reminding myself that my goal is to become AMOAFWL. If our Ws choose to leave (or continue to stay away) then their loss. You posted some good physical stats earlier, you have an active social life (GAL!), are gainfully employed, and so on - you'll be a great catch for someone, even if it's not your W. Her loss. And as others have said, you shouldn't be getting into a serious relationship for some time (I hear 1 year or more), during that time W may realize that you weren't the root of all of her problems and look back.

One other thing I have to remind myself of is that, as many bad things as I did, our Ws are betraying us in different ways, too. So, your W is willing to walk, cast you aside, do you really want to be with someone like that? Now, if she finally "snapped" and is able to collaborate on the relationship, address her issues, too, then absolutely. But I have to tell myself that I don't want to go back to my W as-is.

Anyway, you're doing well for YOURSELF, not your W, so you'll end up better off regardless of the outcome.
Originally Posted by crdcheck

I keep reminding myself that my goal is to become AMOAFWL. If our Ws choose to leave (or continue to stay away) then their loss. You posted some good physical stats earlier, you have an active social life (GAL!), are gainfully employed, and so on - you'll be a great catch for someone, even if it's not your W. Her loss.


Thanks - yes I was pleased when the gym gave me those figures. Apparently six-packs start showing at under 10% fat (read online somewhere) so I'm not far off! There are definitely a few changes on the arms, and I'm walking better and have less shoulder pain.

I'm very thankful for my job. I like where I work, and my work colleagues are good people, and my boss is a very friendly guy. I remember when my W suggested I quit and take a job near home. Whilst that would have been nice with respect to a reduced commute, THANK GOD I didn't do that! I'd be in a much worse mess I think if that were the case.

It really is her loss, because I've just sorted it out. Her response back in May/June? "Too little too late."
I could have done nothing and not been remorseful or still closed off and wallowed in self-pity like I had done. But I feel I've broken through those barriers I'd put up and feel somewhat lighter emotionally. The fact that I'm also getting back into hobbies and things means I'm really looking after myself more than I had done. I'm watching what I eat, and updating my wardrobe (on DS9's advice - stocking up on new slim fit shirts!)

Originally Posted by crdcheck
And as others have said, you shouldn't be getting into a serious relationship for some time (I hear 1 year or more), during that time W may realize that you weren't the root of all of her problems and look back.


Yes. I have absolutely no desire for any rebound Rs or anything. It's not even crossed my mind. I would be happy to be alone for more than a year frankly whilst I save up and just improve even more dramatically.

Originally Posted by crdcheck
One other thing I have to remind myself of is that, as many bad things as I did, our Ws are betraying us in different ways, too. So, your W is willing to walk, cast you aside, do you really want to be with someone like that? Now, if she finally "snapped" and is able to collaborate on the relationship, address her issues, too, then absolutely. But I have to tell myself that I don't want to go back to my W as-is.


Yeah, I have been thinking about this. She is a wonderful woman. However, at this stage, she is just point blank refusing IC for herself. She desperately needs it - I'm sure that it would wake her up to certain aspects of her family dynamic, her boisterous nature, her being more dominant to me when she's been subservient to her main friend group and to her sister (being the youngest of 3 siblings). But she just refuses: "I'll be fine."

I agree with my sister - something will hit her in the future. I don't know if she'll follow through with her desire to remain friends. I really don't know.

I am busying myself with becoming AMOAFWL of course. I will remain that. That is my goal, my early NY resolution!
Originally Posted by DaB35

Yeah, I have been thinking about this. She is a wonderful woman. However, at this stage, she is just point blank refusing IC for herself. She desperately needs it - I'm sure that it would wake her up to certain aspects of her family dynamic, her boisterous nature, her being more dominant to me when she's been subservient to her main friend group and to her sister (being the youngest of 3 siblings). But she just refuses: "I'll be fine."

Be careful with this one - I felt that my W needed IC but the one she chose has just reinforced her beliefs. When I go to my IC it's "what can I do to change this situation". With W it seems like she says "Can you believe what H is doing to me?" I say that because she claims that IC has told her that she's dependent, I'm manipulative and a narcissist (we've never met), and her website (the IC's, that is) is all about empowerment, finding yourself, etc. From the various divorce books (including Divorce Busting) it seems like one of those well-meaning folks who says "Oh, he's hurting you? Get him out of your life!" rather than diving into the deeper issues that plague both.

One of my top regrets is recommending that W go to an IC - she did nothing but steel my W against the marriage.
OK yes another good point. I just wish we could have gone to MC together. My IC offered for W to come to some sessions with me. Her words were, "Nope. Not interested."

One thing she put in the divorce papers was that she mentioned MC and I "refused and declined" it. I genuinely have no recollection of this. If she did, this was December 2017 (when she found the web page open on my phone). But then she never mentioned it after that. Not defending myself, just saying that I can't recall her saying this and found it frustrating that she didn't keep bringing it up. If she did then maybe I would have gone. I was too proud to go originally as I thought I'd deal with things myself (NGS - keep doing the same thing expecting different results). D'oh!

I have not been pushing this at all. I have been NC unless necessary, really since the summer. It does feel terrible sometimes. Other times I'm glad I have so much time to myself at this stage in my life as someone in their mid-30s.
Listening to certain bits of NMMNG again and I do honestly feel I'm overcoming this behaivour.

It has been eye-opening to realise that I was always trying to placate W all the time, even if it meant I was unhappy.

A simple example would be Christmas. Her family live far away (with the exception of her brother who was only 30min away from us), and my family are an hour away.
However it always felt like we had to spend as long as possible with her family, like 5-6 days over Christmas, yet 'shoe-horn' visiting my parents, sister and aunt for a day or two at the most, then we'd have to be off visiting her friends etc. Her family visited us very infrequently; her parents would come visit (usually at a few days' notice) once or at most twice a year, and her sister and her family would probably come once a year, but most of the time we'd have to drive up north to see them. Yet W would not make time to come down to see my family as much. I've mentioned before that she has on more than one occasion expressed that she prefers Christmas with her family ("It's more fun when it's a [her surname] Christmas." This really upset me but would I just let it go year after year.

Lots of other minor things too. If I made a little mistake whilst driving - say I was a little too close to the car in front approaching a roundabout, or was struggling to reverse out of a tight parking spot - I'd get a rant admonishing me, a lecture about what I did wrong, and then be told what I should have done instead. Sometimes I'd snap back "OK OK I'm trying!" or again just let it hit me and not respond. Then I'd bury that emotion and store it up along with all other frustrations, annoyances etc.

I've really analysed how I approached (or rather did not approach) these situations, and thought about how I'd do things differently now with this newly found confidence and more self-respect I have.

I did put her on a pedestal and that was dangerous because I lost - to use a term from the book - my 'personal power' in the R. However, thinking back, she put me on a pedestal too. She was always making out I was this perfect man to al land sundry and as I result I disliked that as I felt I couldn't ever do anything wrong or slip up at all, and if I did I let her down really badly.

Have others found this too - being too subservient then realising it too late?
Originally Posted by DaB35
One thing she put in the divorce papers was that she mentioned MC and I "refused and declined" it. I genuinely have no recollection of this.


My XW said the exact same thing, to me rather than in the D papers though. I didn't remember it either! There was an incident years before BD where she ran up a large amount of debt on her CC and we had an argument about it, at the time she said she was worried I might leave her and asked if we needed counseling and I told her no because I thought we could work through it (and we did). So maybe that's what she meant, who knows. The re-writing of history can be very confusing to the LBS.

Quote
I did put her on a pedestal and that was dangerous because I lost - to use a term from the book - my 'personal power' in the R. However, thinking back, she put me on a pedestal too. She was always making out I was this perfect man to al land sundry and as I result I disliked that as I felt I couldn't ever do anything wrong or slip up at all, and if I did I let her down really badly.

Have others found this too - being too subservient then realising it too late?


Well we all had our faults, mine were different than yours (in my case there was a lot of passive/aggressive behavior by me towards my XW) but no less significant. We can't change history, but we can change our futures so that's what we do. We read, we learn, we change and we go onward and upward as better people smile
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
The re-writing of history can be very confusing to the LBS.


Yes absolutely. I found she was saying how unhappy she was with certain things, but hardly, or never brought them up with me. And yet she would pride herself on not being "the kind of woman who plays mind games" and she'd say, "If I'm not happy I tell you." Not really!

Originally Posted by AnotherStander
We can't change history, but we can change our futures so that's what we do. We read, we learn, we change and we go onward and upward as better people


Great point. I will remember this. Whilst I can't go back in time and make things better, I can look forward and continue to improve myself and my perceptions within any R, whether that is with W or not. If it is with her further down the line, then great (but this time I would insist on C for both of us). If not, then her loss. She threw it away when I wanted to work and she even said to me "I believe you can change." That is what makes this whole thing worse. I wish she hadn't said that.
Strange dream last night - I was walking at night with my W's brother and he said "So why did you do what you did?" I started explaining and he just listened. Then I woke up. Thought about W for a few minutes and then got up and did some stretching and breathing exercises to clear my head.

I haven't really thought about W's friends at all - very fleeting, literally seconds once in a while. I feel guilty that I haven't spoken to her parents; they really loved me and I feel so awful for betraying W. Tough sometimes isn't it!
Had a thought of guilt today that I'm not contacting W at all. Not asking her how she is, how she's getting on etc.
I am worried that she thinks I don't care about her, or maybe other people (family/friends) she is talking to think that I don't care as I've not "tried to fight" or whatever.
I do care about her, very much so. I do hope she is ok.

I guess this is normal. Just felt a bit anxious that I may be coming across as uncaring.

I've been doing well with GAL this week - gym 4 times so far, trip to London yesterday to meet a friend and watch a classical concert, plus this weekend is busy. So the PMA is still there. I just miss her company really.
Adding to my last post above -

Is this natural that I feel bad about not contacting her? I know it helps with detaching etc., but at the same time I'm concerned she thinks - or others are coercing her to think - that I don't care full stop and not tried to work things out (even though I absolutely have).

I do hope W is ok. I know I shouldn't just text "Hi how are you?" as it doesn't really mean anything. But it's making me feel bad that I'm not speaking to her. Having said that - yes, she is not speaking to me either, but I don't know if that's her 100% or others again telling her not to reach out and she's just following that to keep the peace.

I want to keep the picnic and lighthouse going still - do I need to be aware if this news gets back to her? Or just have the picnic, keep the lighthouse on and be pleasant whenever the time arises that we need to speak to each other in any format?

Mind-reading I know, I know...!
Originally Posted by DaB35
Adding to my last post above -

Is this natural that I feel bad about not contacting her? I know it helps with detaching etc., but at the same time I'm concerned she thinks - or others are coercing her to think - that I don't care full stop and not tried to work things out (even though I absolutely have).

I do hope W is ok. I know I shouldn't just text "Hi how are you?" as it doesn't really mean anything. But it's making me feel bad that I'm not speaking to her. Having said that - yes, she is not speaking to me either, but I don't know if that's her 100% or others again telling her not to reach out and she's just following that to keep the peace.

I want to keep the picnic and lighthouse going still - do I need to be aware if this news gets back to her? Or just have the picnic, keep the lighthouse on and be pleasant whenever the time arises that we need to speak to each other in any format?

Mind-reading I know, I know...!


Does it matter the reasons why she isnt texting you? My wife isnt allowed to contact me any more because her new boyfriend gets jealous and thinks we are working towards reconciliation. Its natural to feel bad about not contacting her but the fact of the matter is if she wanted to talk to you she would reach out to you. I find it has helped me detach tremendously knowing that she has no desire to interact with me whatsoever.

She has no desire to interact with me.. and everyday I am losing a little bit of the desire I have to interact with her. Emotional clearance is healthy during separation.
I'm also finding this tough DaB35

At times I just want to reach out and check she's ok, also concerned with displaying Pma and Gal that it comes across that I don't care about what's happening or that I haven't fought for the MR.

I don't know how to display that I absolutely do care and want to reconcile
Yes J, that's what I'm thinking.

I do care about her. I would love R, but at this stage it's quite late in the day. Our decree nisi was granted 2 weeks ago. So it looks like the absolute will happen officially around Xmas time. What a present!

I keep thinking back to her saying how it's very sad, she wished things were different, she cares about my happiness, if she could have a friendship with me it would mean a lot, etc. That kind of makes things worse - why throw everything away then when those words suggest you'd be open to R?

I don't want my PMA and GAL to stop, as it's helping me stay sane and focussed, but also I don't want it to make me look arrogant and disinterested.
Slightly awkward moment at gig last night.

Remember when I mentioned that W has put up a "temporary closure" of her business on her Facebook page, citing "injury"? She has not mentioned this injury to me, so I suspect it's her not bothering with the business whilst D is progressing; presumably she's finding it hard to focus (?) - she has not told me anything about this at all, and I've not heard it from anyone else/mutual friends.

Last night as I was leaving, someone else in the orchestra - who is a frequent customer of W's, and I know him too - said "What's happened to W?" I initially thought he was asking why she wasn't playing last night (we'd always come and play together), but then when I stood there fumbling for an answer (he doesn't know anything about S or D), he clarified, "Her injury?" I fluffed an answer I'm afraid. I said something about "Oh yes, some injury of some sort. I think she'll be ok." I was in a rush to leave and get in the car and drive back to my parents'. He said "OK, I hope she gets better."

Can I ask - shall I still not ask W about this 'injury'? I am trying to be positive throughout this whole process, but it is so hard. She has left a big gap in my life which I really am doing my darndest to fill with GAL stuff.

Do I just stay consistent with all these lines of activity (my picnic) and remain absolutely civil and pleasant to her (the lighthouse is always on), but also don't fall back into NGS and rush to help her at any sign of needing help?

I find it so frustrating - I've essentially sorted myself out. There we go - less than 6 months and I've turned myself around and improved so many aspects of my personality and yet she wanted to chuck it all away. I don't want to sound entitled by saying that - I'm just saying that if W actually followed through when she said "I won't make any decisions until you've got through most of your therapy and IC" then things might be different now.
I can only say I fully feel your frustration.
It's that feeling of never really knowing where you stand, wanting to see a glimmer of hope and getting stuck in wondering what they are thinking, I catch myself being really hard on myself over thinking every interaction.

Did I do ok, have I blown it or set things back even further.

I'm guessing most of the vets would say continue with the picnic.

It's just really hard sometimes,
I'm with you D
I'm struggling with the not reaching out, too. I mean, I get the idea of not pursuing but sometimes it feels like what I would do to someone who I want out of my life vs someone I want in my life. I'm going to trust the process - folks here have been right about so much and W is still acting crazy so I don't think that doing what feels logical is the right move. I spent over a year trying to be perfect for her and that led to divorce - doesn't seem logical to do that again. But I hear you.

Originally Posted by DaB35

Last night as I was leaving, someone else in the orchestra - who is a frequent customer of W's, and I know him too - said "What's happened to W?" I initially thought he was asking why she wasn't playing last night (we'd always come and play together), but then when I stood there fumbling for an answer (he doesn't know anything about S or D), he clarified, "Her injury?" I fluffed an answer I'm afraid. I said something about "Oh yes, some injury of some sort. I think she'll be ok." I was in a rush to leave and get in the car and drive back to my parents'. He said "OK, I hope she gets better."

I guess that you aren't telling friends/acquaintances? I've been honest when I've hit these situations. "Hey, I honestly don't know - not to lay too much on you but we're separated. Everything is ok so no worries, but I just don't know anything more than you about the injury"

My sitch may be different from yours - we work in the same place so everyone is finding out anyway, I figure that I might as well say something if it comes up.
All three of you just started the process of D or S. You are probably at a minimum of 1 year of seeing any changes and they will be minor. Probably at minimum 2 years away for a chance at recon.

The only way to speed up the process is for you to actually move on. The problem is you will be moved on and have zero desire to return to the Nightmare on Elm Street.

Lastly, when you pursue and do favors for someone who is rejecting you it displays to them that you are of low value and confirms they are making the right decision.
Thanks for the 2x4 LH, I knew it was coming. I have just had a slightly lower few days recently.

Yes, I appreciate that for me this entire process has just lasted 6 months so far (!). Plus I only found DB 3 months ago. I think I've made good progress so far with myself and self-improvement, but I do find it hard to not reach out to someone who was such an important part of my life.

I will keep going forward and pushing through it all. I'm finding more things to do - more hobbies/things to try, plus meeting up with old friends more often, and being able to look after myself more seriously.

I will keep reminding myself to not pursue nor offer do any favours. I'll just have my picnic and enjoy it more.
Originally Posted by DaB35
Had a thought of guilt today that I'm not contacting W at all. Not asking her how she is, how she's getting on etc.


That's because DB'ing is counter-intuitive. Your heart is telling you that you need to "nice" her back. Remind her you love her and that you're patiently waiting for her. Maybe buy her some flowers or a nice gift to show how much you care. A card perhaps. Reach out and touch someone. That's Hollywood garbage. She WANTS to be left alone right now. She WANTS as little of you as possible. If she could push a button and have you shipped off to a deserted island somewhere like Tom Hanks in Castaway then she would be mashing it over and over again. Give her what she wants- "not you".

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I am worried that she thinks I don't care about her, or maybe other people (family/friends) she is talking to think that I don't care as I've not "tried to fight" or whatever.


That's classic beta NGS stuff. Try to shift your worries over to what awesome GAL stuff you're doing.

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I guess this is normal. Just felt a bit anxious that I may be coming across as uncaring.


Completely normal, and it's good that you asked here instead of doing something you shouldn't.

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I've been doing well with GAL this week - gym 4 times so far, trip to London yesterday to meet a friend and watch a classical concert, plus this weekend is busy. So the PMA is still there. I just miss her company really.


Good! And of course you do, recovering from a long-term relationship takes time!

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But it's making me feel bad that I'm not speaking to her.


But it's what she wants. You're doing it for her, not you.

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Having said that - yes, she is not speaking to me either, but I don't know if that's her 100% or others again telling her not to reach out and she's just following that to keep the peace.


That's 100% her. She doesn't want to talk to you. The sooner you wrap your head around that then the easier it will be for you to accept DB'ing. She's not the person you fell in loved with and married anymore. Maybe she will be again some day, but it's going to take time.

At some point she may very well say something like "well you've been so cold and distant and that has made things worse" or "you didn't fight for me so I gave up caring" but rest assured it's WAS script. She'll say things like that to support her WAS narrative and shift blame to you. If she does say things like that then either don't reply, or reply with validation. "It sounds like you're frustrated, is that how you feel?"
Originally Posted by AnotherStander

That's because DB'ing is counter-intuitive. Your heart is telling you that you need to "nice" her back. Remind her you love her and that you're patiently waiting for her. Maybe buy her some flowers or a nice gift to show how much you care. A card perhaps. Reach out and touch someone. That's Hollywood garbage. She WANTS to be left alone right now......Give her what she wants- "not you".


Thanks AS, much appreciated as always. Yes I think the counter-intuitive-ness of DBing has hit me hard recently (albeit belatedly).

Originally Posted by AnotherStander
That's classic beta NGS stuff. Try to shift your worries over to what awesome GAL stuff you're doing.


Agreed. I will focus my brainpower on GAL stuff.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Completely normal, and it's good that you asked here instead of doing something you shouldn't......
Good! And of course you do, recovering from a long-term relationship takes time!


That is encouraging to hear, and I'm glad I check here first before doing something that could ruin my DBing so far.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander
At some point she may very well say something like "well you've been so cold and distant and that has made things worse" or "you didn't fight for me so I gave up caring" but rest assured it's WAS script. She'll say things like that to support her WAS narrative and shift blame to you. If she does say things like that then either don't reply, or reply with validation. "It sounds like you're frustrated, is that how you feel?"


Noted. I will certainly validate if she brings that up. She hasn't yet. We have not seen each other in just over 2 months.

I might watch another episode of that 'Night with my Ex' reality show to see what arguments the couples have, and practise my validation responses when I listen to their conversations.

I practised validating at work today. A colleague suddenly burst into tears with the amount of work she has - seems to be quite unrealistic. I said things like, "I can see how overwhelming that much work would be" or "it sounds like it would be difficult to plan everything when you work part-time but in a managerial role". She seemed to calm down a bit and appeared to compose herself.

I'm still waiting for more info from L regarding the finances court order. Lots of questions as the form is quite unclear. She has not chased it though which surprises me, as it's been nearly 2 weeks since she brought it up first.
There is no animosity at present, just complete NC unless absolutely necessary (e.g. yesterday she asked me to pay the window cleaner as they'd come round last week when nobody was in the house - simple business-like polite texts from me).

I guess I should just keep at that picnic...
Originally Posted by DaB35
I practised validating at work today. A colleague suddenly burst into tears with the amount of work she has - seems to be quite unrealistic. I said things like, "I can see how overwhelming that much work would be" or "it sounds like it would be difficult to plan everything when you work part-time but in a managerial role". She seemed to calm down a bit and appeared to compose herself.


Yes! That's awesome! Validation is a great tool to use with coworkers and clients, your kids, friends, anyone you cross paths with really. I've validated total strangers in line at the grocery store. Even as much as I talk about validation I STILL catch myself going into fix-it mode sometimes, man old habits are soooo hard to break.

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She has not chased it though which surprises me, as it's been nearly 2 weeks since she brought it up first.
There is no animosity at present, just complete NC unless absolutely necessary (e.g. yesterday she asked me to pay the window cleaner as they'd come round last week when nobody was in the house - simple business-like polite texts from me).


Sooo, you've been DB'ing, validating, giving her time and space, haven't even seen her in 2 months. And she has suddenly dropped pushing for a speedy D. Hmmmm, could it be that you've effectively removed the pressure from her? whistle wink
Yes I will keep practising validation. ONe important 180 is being more involved with conversations and adding to them more; I'd often be too passive and just listen and not react at all, so adding validating statements is a good way to ease myself in to being more involved in conversations in general (Family/work colleagues/friends).

She is definitely not chasing anything about the D. She asked me to look into the court order on 4th Nov. She sitll hasn't asked for an update. I was expecting her to chase me last week, but she hasn't mentioned it at all.

No-one has made an offer on the house yet either. We've had several viewings though - about 4 or 5 I think.

Not sure what it all means! I haven't been pressuring her at all to do anything, so I guess we'll just see what the next few weeks bring.
Nice work dan! Hopefully things are on the way up.
Thanks DS. I'm feeling a little better this week. Starting to see a few good changes from all the gym work so that's helped with my self-image. I feel less rubbish this week.

Certainly as far as "me" is concerned, yes on the way up.
Bravo dan itís certainly gratifying when all that hard gym work becomes noticeable isnít it. Where have you noticed the biggest change and where do you think you need more work?

Btw Iím going to think positive like AS and say I hope things are on the way up with the XW. Positive vibes mate, positive vibes😉

I hope youíre still smashing those castanets too haha
Arms and chest mainly, and I think I just need to work more on abs. More of a semblance of a six-pack is appearing at the mo, rather than a bargain basement 4 pack lol! I'm at 11.8% body fat, so I think if I keep up the hard work it'll only get better.

I'm eating well - lots of veg, water, reduce sugar - and doing breathing exercises and try to do stretching every day. I do a Yoga class at the gym once a week and it's great. I look forward to it.

Yes, I think if I just keep up the positive vibes and don't think negatively, it'll help me move forward.

Haven't had a chance to play the castanets yet, been playing various types of drums, glockenspiel and cymbals mainly recently lol! Resumed practice every few days though - getting better!
Ha - having said she hasn't chased, she texted me this morning!

"Just wondering, did you get the ball rolling regarding the finance thing we need to do with the solicitor?"

I replied

"Hi. Yes I've paid for it and got a form. I am waiting for a response to some questions I had, as the form is very unclear. I'll send it to you to complete your bits once I know how to fill it in myself."

I guess this doesn't mean she's no longer feeling the pressure. Who knows, maybe someone has reminded her that I've not passed any info on to her...
One query - this finance court order form we have to fill in has several sections:

- General info about where we live, etc., jobs, level of monthly income etc. That's fine.
- We then need to provide info about the house - how much mortgage is left on it, etc. That's ok; I can call the bank to get an exact figure.
- They also ask for a 'Title number' which I've never heard of, so have had to go back to L with what that entails. Am assuming it's in the deeds somewhere...(?).
- Then we have to describe each of our individual accounts: how much we have in each one, plus each of our personal savings accounts, plus personal debts - for both of us it's car finance & 2 credit cards each, that's it.
- Then we have 'additional info', e.g. a list of assets that we're splitting, are we splitting hosue sale 50/50 or not etc. W and I did this in August, but I've since said I'd like a few more things that we didn't put on (e.g. grandfather clock, which we initially said we'd sell, but I paid for it myself so I'd like to keep it). There are other minor things we haven't yet decided on how they'll be split e.g. kitchen utensils, bedding, our soft toy collection (currently languishing in my old wardrobe in the house - poor things lol!).

So, do I...
1. Fill in as much of the form as I can (my stuff plus house stuff, so over half the entire form) with the exception of W's own personal bits, then give it to her to fill in her own stuff to complete. She sends it back to me, then I pass it on to L.
2. Only fill in the bits that pertain to me personally, then hand it all over to W and ask her to fill in everything else (i.e. roughly 75% of the form).

Bearing in mind
-No animosity between us, just NC
-50/50 already agreed
-Her decision entirely to S and D.
I would fill in as much as you reasonably can to limit mistakes on her part. I think you said she's not good at this sort of thing didn't you? If so then try to keep the guesswork (for her) to a minimum.
Yes good point AS, thanks.

I'll be reasonable in filling it in then. Should I give it to her to pass to L? Or as I contacted them after she had looked into it, should I just send it to them?

GAL update
- Just got back from the gym. Upped my abs machine weights to 42.5kg now and the leg press is up to 60kg. Not expecting miracles in two months but will just keep going!
- Made £350 selling some old instruments and sheet music on ebay smile
- Working on new sideline projects including investigating self publishing some of my works

I tell myself sometimes - her loss!


Can't help but think that if my W had just waited it out, we'd be ok. Six months after BD and I'm the best version of me there is, my therapy is wrapping up, I've got much better self-esteem and no longer feel depressed about things, yet I can't show that to her as she's in her castle.

I don't want to come across as a victim here. I wronged the woman I love. I lied to her, and kept things from her. I looked her in the eyes and promised I'd do better, but then I just didn't. That was one element of my NGS - doing the same things over and over to try and get different results (similar to the cheeseless tunnels analogy in the DR book), and then getting frustrated when nothing changed.

She felt I was 'not ready for M' or 'wasn't mature enough'.

She was ill in 2018 when I began messaging these two women online. She was distraught and completely hysterical when she found out this year. I regret it all, and have complete remorse for it. She felt humiliated, understandably.

She was constantly telling me that I had 'settled' for her. We never really communicated about this unless things were bad. I've realised her love language is actually words of affirmation + physical touch. Mine was quality time. But I would express my love to her with gifts - because her reaction was so positive, I kept doing it.

One thing that frustrated me was that when things were going a bit better in June, we were working on the garden together and I was very content and happy. She then moaned when we got in. "See, you are not saying anything again. You've fallen back into your old ways." This, despite me not having said anything for only roughly under ten minutes. Her impatience was staggering! I now realise that I should have validated; instead I just said, "I was just happy. I didn't feel the need to say anything more."

She is very nervous and anxious and must fill silence; she cannot bear people being in a room not talking to one another, she hates gaps in conversation and must talk to fill them.

I feel sad that she told everyone we know where we live what I did (with varying detail), and has then simply gone NC on me unless necessary. I just think if she simply told a close mutual friend, my sister, and perhaps my parents, we could be sorting everything out now and be on the way to piecing and R.

I fear that because she is so stubborn and impulsive, she feels she has gone so far down the D road, she won't (can't) change her mind, and also with enablers telling her she's "doing the right thing" and feeding her this constantly, she'll not want to displease them by changing her mind suddenly. I know that I cannot change her mind. She must choose R, I get that.

I suppose I'm just saying I don't want to be made out to be the poor LBH, full stop. I admit I was a WH, even though I was not involved with a PA or was physically unfaithful at all (I have a lie detector result to prove that). Then she became a WAW - within 24 hours of discovery!

What do others think? I've explained what I did in my earlier threads in detail, so it's known here. I am hoping that I'm coming across as someone who is repentant, has taken on board advice here and from IC, turned things around, and improved myself. I know W doesn't want to be near me at all right now (well actually I don't, I think she's just in the "acceptance" stage of grief and is seemingly just coasting along as nobody is telling me how she is and I'm not asking her or anyone at present).

I do know that what I've achieved in the last few months has been massively positive. I know this means I haven't dropped the rope yet. I find it hard to be a lighthouse for W when we don't live with each other and are not in regular contact anymore.

Is there anything else I should be doing as part of my DBing process? Or am I doing enough for the time being?

No advice really just empathy D.
Days like today I'm overwhelmed with regrets for my failings, I also feel my wife just got to the point where her enablers voices got stronger and stronger, grass looked greener and greener and I could be seen as nothing positive and a burden.
I also recognise that she is too far down the road, she would lose face with her new friends ( enablers)
She actually mentioned after having a good family day and sharing wine, her new friend came over.
Next day she was like "it's all too confusing, what will my friends think?"
So I feel stuck in this stage of her wanting nothing to do with me.

Like I said no advice to give man, just feeling where you are.
Hi J, thanks for the support.

Yes I agree - I feel she's been swayed, but then I remember another seasoned DBer here saying that the WAS wants the enablers to reinforce their thinking, rather than the enablers themselves telling the WAS their own opinions. They just get into that mindset of "Oh yeah, you're right. I AM better off without him!" and then won't stop and take time out to think.
Originally Posted by DaB35
I'll be reasonable in filling it in then. Should I give it to her to pass to L? Or as I contacted them after she had looked into it, should I just send it to them?


It sounds like the two of you are settling things amicably (at least, so far) so I would give it to her and ask her to review it, fill in the missing blanks and that you're available to discuss it if needed. Try and get as much ironed out as possible before turning it over to the L, it'll be easier and cheaper that way. That's what my XW and I did, we went back and forth multiple times before officially filing it.

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- Just got back from the gym. Upped my abs machine weights to 42.5kg now and the leg press is up to 60kg. Not expecting miracles in two months but will just keep going!
- Made £350 selling some old instruments and sheet music on ebay smile
- Working on new sideline projects including investigating self publishing some of my works

I tell myself sometimes - her loss!


Excellent! And yes, it is smile
Hi AS

Yes amicable for the moment certainly. No arguments at all.
Absolutely right - I'll just say I'm availabel to discuss by email if needed.

What a shame she's missing on this new me - I have to keep reminding myself that she only has ot turn back and see a strong confident man who's getting his life in order, and she'll think "oh." I'm not working towards that, I'm just working towards improving myself as much as I can and then keep going so it becomes second nature to be more confident, less Beta, and be someone who is able to communicate better.
Originally Posted by DaB35


Is there anything else I should be doing as part of my DBing process? Or am I doing enough for the time being?



Patience and time. You need to have this. You're under 6 months into your sitch Dan. The vets here say you need to allow at least a year to two years if they're going to turn around.

I read somewhere that to rebuild trust, it takes consistency, reliability and time.

I think you're doing great otherwise Dan. Keep up the clean living and the clean mind, and keep smashing those castanets!
Thanks DS.

I've re-read the court order form, and it advises that the decree absolute should NOT be applied for (only W can apply for it as she started the D) until the finance order is in place, and that takes 1-3 months. So it'll still take time.

I did all my bits in about half an hour. I just need to confirm a savings account balance (I don't log in to it very often so had forgotten my online details, now I have to wait for something from them in the post), and also update my credit card balance after I've paid a bit off when I get paid on Friday this week, then I'm done.

It's quite an easy form. However I think W may struggle and I suspect she'll need to ask for help for it (not necessarily from me).


I feel that I've got the consistency thing sorted; I've made positive steps and stuck at them and now they feel second nature.

Reliability, well I feel I'm being reliable to myself and certainly at work and to family, so that should be good.

Time - indeed! I'm usually very patient, so I just have to keep going I guess. I am enjoying my picnic I must say...
At that time of year when my parents begin thinking about sending out Xmas cards. Mum was worrying about whether to send W's parents a card. I said she should and just act normally. She was also wondering whether she should send W a card too.

Also, I think if she does send W's parents a card, W's mum will call my mum soon after probably, out of politeness.
If W's mum asks my mum about me, should I tell her to say I'm doing well, gym-ing, therapy's gone brilliantly, etc. How much is too much detail to go in to? Or just say "He's fine," and leave it at that?

Should I give W an Xmas present (nothing ostentatious at all) and/or card?

Thoughts anyone?
If W's mum asks, then "Dan's fine" is all that's needed. DB principles apply to family as well.

I wouldnt buy W a present. A cordial text at xmas is enough I reckon.
Hi DS

Right - so nothing more than "He's fine." Anything more if W's mum presses my mum for any further info?

OK - so I assume buying W a present counts as pursuit, even though I have not done any pursuing for months?

I think so Dan. If she asks for more then just be vague Ďoh dans been out and about having fun and doing his music thing with his chums Ď something like that

Yes it would be pursuit. Have a present ready if she gives you one though. Otherwise a text late in the day preferably after she texts you.

Donít stress buddy xmas is a month away
Yes that's a good secondary response.

I know, it shouldn't stress me, but it was such a special time for both of us. I really enjoyed shopping for presents for her and planning what to get. Nothing hugely expensive, just more thoughtful, small things.

Yes I have an idea for a present (small and cheap, functional and definitely not romantic). I won't get it yet though. If I do get it, and I don't get anything from her, I could just return it or give it to my sister instead.
Originally Posted by DaB35
At that time of year when my parents begin thinking about sending out Xmas cards. Mum was worrying about whether to send W's parents a card. I said she should and just act normally. She was also wondering whether she should send W a card too.


Yes I agree with you, send them and act normal. Warn them that W might tell her parents not to send one back though, so it's important to have no expectations.

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Also, I think if she does send W's parents a card, W's mum will call my mum soon after probably, out of politeness.
If W's mum asks my mum about me, should I tell her to say I'm doing well, gym-ing, therapy's gone brilliantly, etc. How much is too much detail to go in to? Or just say "He's fine," and leave it at that?


Yes like the other said just keep it brief. "He's fine, he's been really busy lately." The one thing I would tell them is to absolutely NOT discuss the R.

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Should I give W an Xmas present (nothing ostentatious at all) and/or card?


Normally we suggest taking the kids shopping to buy the WAS something, but you don't have kids. I would suggest you politely tell her that you assume that based on the current situation between you that you won't be exchanging gifts and ask her to confirm. Some people will tell you just don't buy anything and don't say anything, and that's not a "wrong" approach either. Personally I lean towards communication when it comes to these awkward situations though.
I tend to fall on the "just don't buy anything and don't say anything" side of the fence. But dang, AS makes a good point here. So now I am squarely on the fence. I agree that neither approach is "wrong".
Thanks all.

Mum will send a card. I will advise her what to say if W's mum calls. Her family don't really do cards, so I don't think it's likely they'll send one anyway.

Had to go to the house this evening to collect some instruments again and some paperwork. Before I left, I plugged two of our lamps into timers that I had brought. They automatically switch them on/off for a hew hours every evening. I've no idea when W is in the house anymore, so to avoid the place looking completely empty during the dark winter nights, I thought it was a wise move (plus we have the alarm too).

I texted W to let her know, as she'd usually come to the house late Friday night to collect things for when she stays at her brother's. She might therefore wonder why I've left lights on so I thought it best to explain. She said "OK thanks, that's a good idea! Have a good weekend." Surprisingly friendly, as I was expecting simply a curt "OK thanks."

GAL for weekend - gym in morning, gig, work overtime, put some more stuff on ebay, call friend from Uni for a catch-up.
Completed the finance form. Going to email W this:

Hi W

Here is the order form. I've filled in my bits; you just need to do the same and fill in any other blanks.

You will need to attach the list of items we drew up in August. Please could you add the grandfather clock and landing light fittings to my list.

I was thinking about the sofas. It seems odd to split the suite, especially as it's now discontinued. I've suggested on the form that if I take both, I pay you roughly half the price my parents paid for them originally, which is about £550. You can put that towards your own sofa. Let me know if you're happy with that.

Hope you have a good week.
[me]

Any advice appreciated...? Would like to send Monday (tomorrow) so she can't accuse me of stalling.
Do I get her ot send it back to me then I pass it on to L? Or tell her that the email is on the form and she can do it?

Had a good weekend. Got paid more for the gig than I thought, plus it was only 10 mins away so that was a bonus.
Achieved quite a lot at the gym today (cycling class plus workout). I got a personal best of RPM for cycling.

Had to text W today, as she had asked when boiler serviceman was supposed coming round tomorrow morning (Monday). I had forgotten to tell her they'd cancelled. I waited 90 mins to reply, saying I was at gym (she texted during my class). I just replied saying they had to re-schedule, and that I had complained to the utility company.

Her
How hard is it for them to turn up!? That's good really as I have lots of work on and need more time at [place of work]. Thanks for checking for me.

Me
No worries. Yes it's frustrating isn't it. Yes I saw the [stuff she needs to repair] in garage, great that you have a lot of work on and you're busy.

Her
No I'm not repairing [those items], they were going to be scrapped so I saved a few. Going to give [her sister] 2 and keep another two for myself, for future wall art, or maybe an interesting lamp project for myself!

Me
I see. Nice that you were able to save them for the skip. Good idea; you could [suggestion for design of lamp idea which I thought was interesting].

No response then.

So, another pleasant exchange today. I was again expecting just short answers.
Hey Dan

I'd avoid saying things like 'you need to' becuase that comes off as controlling. Perhaps just use "Please attach...."

Also avoid things like "You can put that towards your own sofa..." for similar reasons. SHe can do what she wants with the money

Get her to send it straight to your L.

Avoid saying you're at the gym. My go to is just "I'm out and about at the moment"

Avoid "Hope". Just say "Have a good one/week" etc. Sounds more decisive

Good to hear gym and everythign else is going well. Smash those castanets!

Cheers DS
Thanks for the quick reply DS.

How about:

Hi W

Here is the order form. I've filled in my bits; you just need to do the same and fill in any other blanks.
Please forward it to the email address on the form and attach the list of items we drew up in August.
Please could you add the grandfather clock and landing light fittings to my list.

I was thinking about the sofas. It seems odd to split the suite, especially as it's now discontinued. I've suggested on the form that if I take both, I pay you roughly half the price my parents paid for them originally, which is about £550. Let me know if you're happy with that.

Have a good week.
[D]
Sounds good mate.

Just drop the 'you just need to' and replace with please
Sent it.

I now know that W is going to be worse off without me. She will brag to all and sundry how she will be fine and that she's glad to be rid of me, but she won't find someone with the extent of things in common that we had. I'm a better person now and she is missing out.

Now I can focus on my GAL day off - day out in London with my mum.
Dan, that all sounds fine. Good edits from DS.

I agree that it sounds like W is at least being a little more polite and friendly which is a good baby step!
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Divorce because I betrayed her trust - Part 6
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