22 Years Gone Part 1Prologue:
My XW and I had been together since we met in college back in 1997. We got married in 2002 and had our daughter in 2006. From 1997-2002 I was the primary bread-winner and put XW through college and after she then worked and put me through college. We then decided to have a child and since she could make a lot more money than my profession I became the stay at home dad. In 2008 she had an affair on me with the husband of a couple we were really good friends with. She was the one who pursued him and he broke it off to save his marriage with his wife. I was in hell for 4 months until she agreed to work on the relationship, which I thought had been going great for the next 10 years. A year ago D13 and myself had noticed she was pulling away but thought it was because of how busy we all were. May 23 XW decided to BD me right before my birthday and a big Hawaii trip we had been planning for 4 years. She said it was not because of a guy but D13 told me she had been seeing her hold hands and spending a lot of time with her best friends dad. She denied it but other people confirmed they have been together a lot and she even invited OM daughter to go to Hawaii since I couldn't go anymore. XW moved out one day after BD and has never been back or talked about the R or seen me other than at D13 drop off since then. XW had an appointment with a divorce attorney within a week of leaving, so to protect myself financially and to protect my time with D13 I contacted my own lawyer. XW called me before Hawaii and told me exactly what she wanted in the divorce (D13 every other weekend, split everything financially in half, and I get the house.) I had my lawyer draw up the paperwork and when XW got back from the Hawaii trip she was given the papers and she signed them and within a couple weeks it was over. XW then became very hostile towards me and became extremely distant from D13. Visitation visits have been extremely difficult between D13 and XW. D13 is in therapy and I have been adapting to my new life as a single dad raising a teenage daughter.
D13 is going to have a therapy session with her mom so D13 can set her boundaries and expectations during her visitations. I am really hoping XW truly listens to what D13 is asking but am not too hopeful.
D13 has been having a hard time lately and said she believes her mom is lost and wants to come back home but doesn't know how. I asked her what actions made her believe this to be true and D13 said whenever D13 brings me up in a conversation she gets really sad for a moment then immediately gets angry. She also said whenever they pull up to the house her mom gets teary eyed but then changes back to anger again. I asked D13 how these thoughts made her feel and then validated those feelings. I have really been working a lot on trying to just listen and validate D13 but I struggle because one of my 180's was not always trying to "fix" things.
I am working on being an amazing dad and trying to get the courage to go back to college to finish a master's degree. My half of the retirement has been distributed to me and for some reason it triggered me badly. I think this is because it was a part of my dreams/goals from the past and those dreams/goals are no more. Now I can refinance the house in my name only so now I can get the title in my name only.
I am still living week to week and cannot yet envision life beyond that time frame but my heart no longer hurts all the time. It is difficult to GAL due to the fact I am a full time parent, most of my friends are married, and I have to work a lot. Most of my spare time is working on housework, running errands, and doing projects around the house.
It is hard not to echo the words of D13 "I miss my family." Both D13 and I realize that the family we loved so much was only our reality and not XW reality. XW for her own reasons didn't see things the same way we did and we both understand that now. D13 and I both know that the holiday season is going to be a giant emotional roller coaster.
You’re an amazing dad and man roo- archetypal amoafwl
Does D13 have a close group of friends she can confide in? How are you and her doing today mate?
Do your masters next year when the dust settles
Stay strong buddy- Danny champion of the world
My plan is to stay out of stores (use curbside pickup), watch Netflix (no commercials) and continue to keep the radio off (I listen to soothing instrumental music). I will decorate, bake cookies but only in the safe cocoon of my home with my babies. I can handle the holidays but only in small controlled doses. No extended family so it’s just us.
DS9 what is amoafwl?
Does D13 have a close group of friends she can confide in?
D13 does have some friends she has been having fun with and I keep encouraging that part of her life. I have pushed her to get out and GAL. She went to her first 8th grade dance of the year. We spent two days at the mall to find her dress and she looked beautiful in it.
continue to keep the radio off (I listen to soothing instrumental music).
Classical or instrumental music is literally the only thing I can listen to. Almost all music with words just triggers me badly. TV is nonexistent anymore because I can't handle it.
Tomorrow is D13's therapy appointment with her mom to set boundaries on what happens during visitations. D13 is very nervous but I keep giving her words of encouragement. For me personally it will be a struggle because it will be the first time I have seen XW since she walked out the door (except the brief exchanges of D13). During the exchanges I don't even come within 50 feet of XW and now will likely have to sit in the small waiting room with XW. I will suck it up because D13 wants me to be there for support. Part of me is very curious as to how my emotions will play out.
Tomorrow is D13's therapy appointment with her mom to set boundaries on what happens during visitations. D13 is very nervous but I keep giving her words of encouragement. For me personally it will be a struggle because it will be the first time I have seen XW since she walked out the door (except the brief exchanges of D13). During the exchanges I don't even come within 50 feet of XW and now will likely have to sit in the small waiting room with XW. I will suck it up because D13 wants me to be there for support. Part of me is very curious as to how my emotions will play out.
Grateful to be passed having to see WAH but the few times I have it wasn't terrible mostly because he looks so miserable. lol
D13 had the therapy session with her mom and came out feeling "powerful." She said she called her mom on some of the stuff she has been doing to her in the past couple years. D13 said her mom would get defensive and then D13 would call her on it. Then her mom would say "I am such a screw up" but would not admit to what she did to screw things up. D13 would just tell her "yes you are a screw up and a liar." Her mom would just cry and when she got no sympathy from D13 or the therapist she would stop crying. D13 said it mostly just felt fake with bits of truth sprinkled in. During the meeting D13 said at this time I don't feel like you are my "mother" and although I am thinking about a relationship it will depend on your actions. All in all D13 was able to clearly articulate that she is leaving a toe in the relationship but her mom's words mean nothing to her and her actions overtime will be the only thing D13 looks at. I was proud of my daughter. The thing that shocked me was when her mom left the meeting she didn't appear shocked or sad at all? If I had left a meeting where my daughter told me she didn't think I was her father anymore I would be so devastated I wouldn't be safe to drive. XW just came out of the session like she just finished work and had to go get groceries at the store before heading home.
XW avoided all contact with me completely. Didn't hurt like I thought it would but still surprises me that someone after 22 years can just emotionally disconnect that easy. In her mind I no longer exist.
The thing that shocked me was when her mom left the meeting she didn't appear shocked or sad at all?
Didn't hurt like I thought it would but still surprises me that someone after 22 years can just emotionally disconnect that easy. In her mind I no longer exist.
It's taken me a while to grasp this concept but it is true believe nothing they say and half of what they do. That said I think she is sad and I don't think she's emotionally disconnected. If this were all true then why all the dramatics, the emails and the anger?
Hey Roo
Geez I feel for D13. Sounds like she is growing up way too fast.
Do you think its good for XW to be involved in the counselling sessions? Probably is hey. If she keeps going of course.
She's not emotionally disconnected mate. The cracks show when she rages, dramatics etc. Read the MLC sticky 'why are they so distant'. Reading on compartmentalisation has really opened my eyes as well.
Stay strong brother.
Geez I feel for D13. Sounds like she is growing up way too fast.
She is growing up way to fast and that is one of the tragedies of MLC, WAS, WS actions when there are children involved. I know not all peoples sitch are the same here, but I have become pretty biased in my current beliefs on how good of parents many (not all) of those people are. I see a lot of spouses treating the LBS horribly, behaving erratic, out of control, lying, manipulating, gas lighting, vindictive, accusing, drugs, alcohol, mentally unstable and many other cruel things. The children see this and understand a lot, especially the older they are. Then I hear "but they are a good parent." Just my opinion but no they are not good parents, and in fact they are lousy role models for their children. Another argument is the children are strong and will be fine, but the evidence I read in book after book says the children are at higher risk for drugs, abuse, suicide, relationship problems, pregnancy, academic problems, behavior issues and many others. If they ever come out of the "fog" or whatever it is they are going through then yes they could become amazing parents but while they continue current behavior I think they are abusive not only to the LBS but also emotionally abusive to their children. Ok my rant is over
Do you think its good for XW to be involved in the counselling sessions?
No, I think it was a waste of time. D13 was able to talk about all of her anger but each thing D13 brought up her mom would deny, tell D13 her memory was wrong, make D13 feel guilty, or blame D13. D13 would then call her on the stuff and even offer up proof which made her mom silent for a moment and then her mom would take a new tactic. The new tactic was to try and get sympathy by saying "I know I am such a horrible person, I am such a screw-up, nobody likes me" and in response D13 would just say "yes, yes you are." Then her mom would get angry and the therapist would have to step in. Finally, her mom would start crying which D13 and therapist said could be turned on and off like clockwork when needed. The cycle of deny, lie, blame, looking for sympathy, anger, fake cry continued on and on for an hour. This is exactly what happened 10 years ago to me when XW and I went to counseling sessions but the difference is when she looked for sympathy and started crying I melted and gave her everything she wanted. D13 is a whole different ballgame and it won't work on her "Hell hath no fury like a scorned teen girl!"
D13 told her mom "the emails dad sends about what I want and need at visitations are what I am trying to tell you not dad and quit blaming him for everything." She tried to tell D13 she was just being brainwashed but D13 and therapist put a quick stop to that. Her mom agreed to listen to what she wants for visitation for this upcoming weekend and agreed to stop blaming me for everything.
I was truly hoping XW would see the damage she has caused in the relationship with D13 and look at her own actions instead of blaming me. Unfortunately later that evening I received an email from her that contradicted everything she agreed to in the therapy session and once again blames me. An example, this therapist is suppose to be for D13 individually not for family counseling and D13 wants it that way as does the therapist. The one session with D13 and her mom was for D13 to set her boundaries on visitations. So XW emails me to tell me "I am 100% supportive of D13's ongoing private sessions with therapist," but in the next sentence says "I will be wanting to meet with D13 and therapist once a month to start with and more often later on." Apparently she appears to support the private sessions as long as she is part of it thereby not making them private any longer.
In my opinion XW will make lots of promises and do a couple things requested to start rebuilding trust and then when things appear ok stab D13 right in the heart. XW has done that to her mom, dad, brother, best friend at college, coworkers, and me.
Just my opinion but no they are not good parents, and in fact they are lousy role models for their children. Another argument is the children are strong and will be fine,
I'm 100% no contact (3 months now), have 2 kids full time, 1 still isn't speaking to him and the other is angry. I read on here that a MLC is akin to a mental illness, that something happens to their brains where just aren't right anymore. I don't think they have much control over it. My WAH has backed himself into a corner and part of me can respect that. My kids are struggling but I'm doing the best I can.
Wow! I got an email to update some information on a financial forum I use to belong to a long time ago and as I was doing that I came across a post I created from the first time my XW cheated on me. It hit me like a ton of bricks. I find it funny that she didn't value me back then because I was a stay at home dad and now she left again but this time I had a full time job and worked a lot. The part that really stuck out to me was she didn't feel guilty for what she did. I remember typing this because it was a result of going to a counseling session with her that day and during the session she just hammered me with every weakness or insecurity I had. She used her knowledge of me as a weapon to destroy me in that counseling session and it nearly resulted in me killing myself.
Betrayed and Seeking Advice
01-31-2009, 07:03 PM
Well the economy is in the dumps and so is my life. As with everyone else my portfolio is way down, my house is worth less than what I owe and I am a stay at home dad so I don't have a job. I of course wasn't concerned because retirement is 30+ years away and my "wife" was a nurse manager who made good money and had a stable job.
Little after Christmas I found out my wife doesn't love me, respect me, consider the job I did at home valuable and that she has been having an affair with her married "dream guy" for about a year. We have been doing the counseling but she is not interested in fixing the marriage because she says she is broken and needs to work on herself and it would be years before she could even consider working on the marriage. She does not feel guilty for what she did and is only staying with me because she feels bad that I am financially dependent on her. My daughter is almost 3 and I have taken care of her since she was born and am afraid of losing her.
Here is my situation if I leave and we split up assets then the retirement account would be hit with massive fees, have to be sold at the bottom of the market, and I have no way of paying for any part of the house. With no income and no place to live I would have to move in with my parents who don't really have money either and would have no way of supporting my child. The plan was for me to finish my masters degree when my daughter started preschool which would be next fall.
If I stay here I am in eternal hell because of the complete lack of caring by my exwife about what she did. I can't sleep well and my poor daughter has started getting moody, wetting the bed, and other things she has never had a problem with before. So the question is do I risk destroying myself financially and leave and hope I can still be the main person in my daughters life? Or do I stick it out here until I get my masters degree and get a job and hope the market recovers somewhat?
Never again will I let myself be financially dependent on another person NEVER.
I take back what I said then. That stinks.
D13 and I were out driving and saw XW jogging on the side of the road. Poor D13 had a hard time because XW had told her she was working during those times and now she finds out that her mom is not working but using the time to workout. If you have read my sitch you will understand she has an addiction to working out because she has severe weight and body image issues. She should weigh around 115lbs but now D13 says she is down to 90lbs and still constantly dieting and exercising. Her workouts aren't a big deal to me anymore but every additional lie she tells D13 is another stab in her heart. D13 has a hard time because for the past 13 years her mom continuously chose working out or her workout friends over spending time with her. She also just discussed this at the last therapy session. I tried to let D13 know that she can't control what her mom does which unfortunately includes lying. I told D13 she can only let her mom know what would help her and then either her mom will listen and choose to do those actions or she will choose not to.
XW also did not even acknowledge D13 when we passed.
D13 has a longer visitation this weekend and she would like everyone to wish her luck. She is very nervous after having that intense therapy session with her mom.
D13 has a longer visitation this weekend and she would like everyone to wish her luck. She is very nervous after having that intense therapy session with her mom.
Hey Roo so sorry man I missed this! I hope D13 went ok over the weekedn and would like to wish her luck belatedly. How did she go??
Man, that post from 2009 is a real gut wrencher. I'm sorry you've gone through this twice now mate.
Keep up the strength! Cheers DS
D13 had an ok visit, her mom did all the things she asked her to do at the therapy session.
My heart hurts so bad. Every time I think I can get past all of this, the pain hits me so hard. I went alone on a 24 mile back country hike this weekend and was crossing a icy/snowy slope with about a 2,000 foot vertical drop off. I love my daughter too much but I can't say it wasn't tempting. She feels I am the only family she has left and I promised her I would be there for her as long as she needed.
Oh geez Roo I feel for you brother. Have you got close friends where you are that you can pick up the phone and speak to them about these feelings?
Your daughter needs you and deserves you and you need to stay as strong as you can in even the most difficult times. You stick to that promise to your D buddy, ok.
If I ever make it to the US (always wanted to visit the best country in the world!), we'll go on that back country hike together mate.
Sending you a big man/bro hug and letting you know this time that someone across the other side of the world is with you and thinking of you bud.
Keep DBing and keep being the Lighthouse.
DS
I am trying hard today but......
- My biological dad was an alcoholic and sexually abusive.
- My mother has visited my house 4 times in the last 22 years and lives pretty close.
- My mother has called me maybe 3 times in the last year and that was only to return my calls.
- My step dad has never called me once in his life.
- Neither of my parents have called or come to visit me since BD.
- Couple years ago I paid off over $20,000 in my parents credit card debt with barely a thank you.
- Sister ran away when she was 16 with her boyfriend and went on a spree of breaking and entering, stolen jewelry, stolen cars, and ended up in jail in California which I helped pay for mom to fly down and bail her out.
- My sister borrowed $2,000 from me to pay for one of her child's surgery but I found out she used it for something else (drugs). She has never talked to me since
- Moved out of my parents house during my senior year in high school and my parents didn't even notice I had left and still to this day do not realize. Confirmed with my best friends mom that I did this since mom doesn't believe me.
- XW cheated on me 2009 and went through living hell with her attacking/blaming me on every level.
- Ridiculed for being a stay at home dad for D13's first 5 years of her life by wife, friends, and most moms in the groups I signed up for.
- 10 years of rebuilding trust and wife BD me again with only I am negative and I didn't build D13 crib when she was a baby
- Been accused of violence, mental abuse, not taking care of D13, doing to much for D13 so she favors me, lazy, work to much, weak, controlling, to passionate, not passionate enough, not masculine enough, too masculine
- Marriage counseling therapist turned to me in the one and only session after second BD and said I can give you a list of other therapists because apparently he only wanted to work with XW. (He was our MC therapist after the first affair and my IC). When I asked if I could see him again he said "sure" but when I texted him he never returned my text.
- Many of my friends no longer invite me over or include me in stuff (XW is not invited either so it isn't like they took sides)
- Last week not a single person called or texted me except D13
To summarize how I feel ~
Abandoned by biological dad
Abandoned by mom
Abandoned by step dad
Abandoned by sister
Abandoned by wife
Abandoned by some friends
Abandoned by therapist
It is extremely difficult to look at myself and wonder what the *&^% is wrong with me. I don't drink, don't smoke, don't do drugs, work hard, got good grades, went to college, take good care of D13, before affairs XW said I was amazing husband and dad, take care of my parents, always their for my friends, never cheated, primary income part of relationship, primary caretaker for another part. I am tired just so very tired.
Roo, I dont know what to say to this but thank you for telling us about these tragic aspects of your life. That you've weathered all these tragedies and still are here for your daughter and still going forward is testament to your character and strength.
There is nothing wrong with you - nothing, nothing, nothing! Bad people take advantage of good people.
Do you trust getting in touch with another C to help out? Or maybe get in touch with one of the counsellors from Divorce Busting itself?
We're here for you buddy. Keep us posted frequently with your thoughts and feelings ok.
Roo,
It's easy for us to look and find all the negatives in our lives. But what I read and what stuck out more to me, wasn't the people walking out, but it was how much you helped your family and how, even thou these people that you love have hurt you, you have found ways to forgive them.
So, stop looking for reasons why people are walking out your life, and wait for and nurture the people that walk in.
From what I read you are an awesome, loving, caring, reliable dude, don't let people change that about you are allow other people actions too question yourself and blame yourself.
Keep ya head up Roo.
Joejoe
Hey Rooskers,
I have some abandonment issues as well that began when I was around 10 years old, it still affects me to this day. I wish I could provide some advice that could help you but I'm kind of in the same boat that you are.
Hang on your hat on the good things, most notably your relationship with D. You have been a rock for her and that speaks to your character.
You're a good dude, Rooskers. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
Thorn
Rooskers,
Your post really stirred some emotions in me.
My dad abandoned us when I was very young. I swore never to have my family torn apart by a D, and here I am now.
I'll never forget a dream I had. I was at the beach, in the water drowning and yelling for help. My dad was walking away, not turning back, holding hands with his OW. The dream captured exactly how I felt.
When my W BDed me, I couldn't stop thinking about that dream. An image came into my mind of her walking away from me behind my dad as well.
Hang in there, things will get better.
Add me to the list of someone with abandonment issues. My suggestion, which you will hate, is to consider how blessed you are. I'm sitting here worried I won't be able feed my kids and thinking I might have to move to the slum in a year. I make too much money for food stamps and my rent is high. I'm so scared.
If I get a better settlement than what WAH is paying now I think I will be okay but at this point I'm worried. I don't even know how much I'll have to pay in legal fees. I saved up as much as I could before I moved but I have this bad feeling it's going to get ugly.
Maslow's Expanded Hierarchy of Needs
1. Biological and physiological needs - air, food, drink, shelter, warmth, sex, sleep, etc.
2. Safety needs - protection from elements, security, order, law, stability, etc.
3. Love and belongingness needs - friendship, intimacy, trust, and acceptance, receiving and giving affection and love. Affiliating, being part of a group (family, friends, work).
4. Esteem needs - which Maslow classified into two categories: (i) esteem for oneself (dignity, achievement, mastery, independence) and (ii) the desire for reputation or respect from others (e.g., status, prestige).
5. Cognitive needs - knowledge and understanding, curiosity, exploration, need for meaning and predictability.
6. Aesthetic needs - appreciation and search for beauty, balance, form, etc.
7. Self-actualization needs - realizing personal potential, self-fulfillment, seeking personal growth and peak experiences.
8. Transcendence needs - A person is motivated by values which transcend beyond the personal self (e.g., mystical experiences and certain experiences with nature, aesthetic experiences, sexual experiences, service to others, the pursuit of science, religious faith, etc.).
Ok I am at Level 2. I just have 6 more levels to go.
Ok I am at Level 2. I just have 6 more levels to go.
You've got to be higher than that. I'm higher than that and my life is kinda sad right now.
My suggestion, which you will hate, is to consider how blessed you are.
I have a house I own.
I have D13 who loves me.
I have a job.
I have my health.
I am currently financially secure (840 credit score :))
Other than my daughters love most of these items are in Maslow's Hierarchy level 1 and level 2.
3. Love and belongingness needs - friendship, intimacy, trust, and acceptance, receiving and giving affection and love.
Other than to D13 I am not sure I will ever be able to receive this or give this.
D13 had an all day visit on Saturday with her mother because it was her mother's birthday. I walked D13 outside and gave her a hug and whispered in her ear "you got this because you are a strong, amazing young women." She was crying and did not want to go but I smiled and let her know I loved her and would be here for her when she returned.
That evening when she returned I was waiting outside on the porch. As she walked up from her mother's car she did not say a word. I wrapped her up in my arms as I brought her back in the house. We maintained that for the next hour because she could not talk but silent tears ran down her cheeks. It took 3 hours for her to be able to say any words. I did not press for information and was not given any. The only thing she said was "I hurt daddy, I hurt real bad." All I know is it seemed to help when I held her, so that is what I did.
Every day I ask myself "Is there nothing more that I can do?" Her counselor says I am doing great and so does everyone else but why do I feel like such a failure.
This is a divorcebusting forum and I am already divorced and have no hope for a healthy relationship with my XW so I am not sure why I am here except that it helps.
Thanks for sharing how you’reD’s been feeling. I’m sending both of you positive vibes and energy. You’re a frickin fantastic dad and I’m learning from you and how you’re coping with things.
How’s your D today? I’ve been meaning to ask too what you teach and what are your Ds favourite subjects?
Take care Roo. There’s always a chance things change for the better. My relationship with my step son is testament to that. Would you even take your XW back?
D13 is doing great now that she is back home. Last night we worked on a science report together and all I can say is I have learned all I need to know about the genetics of redheads. We really did have a lot of fun working on the assignment and she was so thankful for the help she almost cried. The assignment had her really stressed out. I continue to teach her how to cook and so dinner was apple chicken sausages, yukon gold potatoes, and eggs. She really liked having breakfast for dinner. Each night we also go for a walk together which gives her a chance to talk and work out her problems. The sunset was amazing and so we sat and watched it together.
I’ve been meaning to ask too what you teach and what are your Ds favourite subjects?
I am a math teacher and D13 is in my algebra class. Math is one of her favorite subjects but she also likes science and art. We both took painting classes together this summer and I was surprised at how much we learned and improved. She has mentioned she would really like to take piano lessons with me next.
Would you even take your XW back?
I would never take back the person she is now. Would I take back the women I thought she was for most of our marriage? I am not sure I would because I am not sure that person ever existed. I ask myself everyday if the person I married was always like this and I just didn't want to see it. D13 said if I ever reconciled with her that is the day she would lose respect and trust in me. D13 feels like she has been emotionally abused by her mother for years and I would be betraying her if I ever got back together with her.
#3 is about belonging. I have that at work. I work some really great people and for reasons I don’t understand they love me. I’m also in a support group and they love me too. Do you have anything like this?
Just got this text from my step-dad.
Was it cranial-rectal inversion or did you just choose not to acknowledge Mom's 70th birthday?
Yes, I completely forgot it was my mom's birthday because D13 was not able to talk after visit with her mother and I was completely distracted. D13 has a crisis plan for suicide and I was extremely concerned. My parents have not visited me once this entire time and my mom has called me zero times on her own. Step-dad has called me zero times and his only advice at the very beginning of this was "oh well, move on." I believe all together for the past 13 years they have visited me only 4 times and they live fairly close.
Just got this text from my step-dad.
I'm just gobsmacked at your SD's attitude mate. Sounds like the time to purge the toxics from your life mate.
D13 has a crisis plan for suicide and I was extremely concerned.
Oh geez Roo, this is tough. I'm so sorry man. I'm sending your D my thoughts and best wishes and will have her in my prayers tonight (and you too mate). How are you coping?
Stay strong Roo!
Last night I let my parents know that I will not be going over to their house for Thanksgiving. It was a very difficult decision but I am trying my best to keep it together for D13. The continued lack of support and texts from both of them are becoming too much while also trying to deal with the emails from my XW. I need to be strong for D13 and so for at least a little while I will be cutting my parents out of the picture.
D13 and I will be going over to a friends house for Thanksgiving and D13 is fine with that decision because I included her in on it. She likes to be involved because she feels like she has very little choices in her life right now. Both of us are excited to decorate for Christmas and I even planned a trip in the mountains to cut our own tree.
It sounds like you're still doing all the right things Roo. The tree cutting sounds awesome! The only cutting I'll be doing for our tree is cutting the box open and smelling the plastic from the fake tree I'm yet to buy!
D13 had a therapy visit yesterday and the first 10 minutes of it was with her mom. D13's therapist met with her mom the hour before D13's appointment. I sent the therapist a couple of emails XW has been sending me about D13 so she could address some of the problems. The therapist told XW point blank that she needs to stop all the harassing, accusatory, blaming emails to me at once. The therapist said your relationship difficulties with D13 are a direct result of your actions and have nothing to do with your XH. Your daughter needs space and time and you are giving her neither. Your daughter needs to decide if she wants reconciliation with you and you need to accept that if she does choose that it will be on her timeline not yours. You also need to accept you walked out on her life and just because you want back in doesn't mean she does and you need to accept that as well. If you have issues with your XH (me) then you need to address these issues with him and leave D13 out of it and not use her to hurt him. Last but not least, you paint yourself as a victim, but you need to accept the fact that you are the one who left D13, and you are the one based on your actions over the lifetime of D13 that has caused this distancing between you and her not your XH. This is what D13's therapist told me the rest she said was confidential but I was appreciative in all that she said.
We then got there and D13 had her 10-15 minutes where she proceeded to lay into her mom about all the lies she has been telling over the last 2 years. D13's therapist often interrupted D13 to look at her mom and comment "that isn't what you told me in our session alone together" and another lie would be exposed. XW denied saying lot of stuff and D13 would then just pull up some of the emails (therapist also had some of the emails) and read them and XW would then get really angry. By the end of it D13 said her mom would glare at her like fire was coming from her eyes. D13 looked right back into her eyes and said "I am not afraid! You will regret the day you try to hurt me or my dad again!" I was in the waiting room so all I saw was XW open the door and storm away full of anger. D13 told me after what happened.
All I know is it hurt to know XW continues to destroy a possible relationship with D13. After the therapy session D13 said "Dad, I am close to getting my own lawyer to cease all contact with mom." I replied "Time D13, give it time."
Thank you DS9. We have a fake Christmas tree that we really liked but it is too difficult since we used the same one since D13 was born. So to start new traditions we are going to cut our own this year. I will hop over to your sitch to see how things are going on your end.
All I know is it hurt to know XW continues to destroy a possible relationship with D13. After the therapy session D13 said "Dad, I am close to getting my own lawyer to cease all contact with mom." I replied "Time D13, give it time."
rooskers I'm on your DD's side.
D13 got back from her visitation on Saturday and I had the Christmas lights put up and all the outside decorations done. I was so excited when she stepped out of the car I couldn't help it. She got her stuff and ran up to me almost in tears she was so happy to be home and my heart sang for joy.
Today D13 was able to go to her friends birthday party. I believe it is important for me to encourage D13 to keep a social life so I was really glad she decided to go. When she was first invited she told me she didn't really want to go because Birthdays tend to be a trigger for her.
After the birthday party I took her to the Gingerbread Jubilee, which is a competition for gingerbread houses to raise money for a local performance arts theater. We saw a lot of amazing designs and both of us are thinking about entering the competition next year.
We are both continuing to move forward. She said her visit with her mother went well. For the time being she is treating it like a business or roommate relationship. The only thing that bothered me a little is her mom is going on an all liquid diet because of her upcoming surgery and so didn't feed D13 all Saturday. I guess if XW doesn't have to eat she doesn't feel the need to feed her child. That wasn't too bad though because when D13 got home we cooked a wonderful dinner together and had an even better breakfast this morning.
Wow Rooskers, I just want to stand up and applaud D13's therapist! Not sure how much impact it had on XW but it's ABOUT TIME someone impartial put her in her place. I'm so glad that she is supporting your D's choices and letting her know that her actions and feelings are valid and not trying to convince her that she should force a recon. Really great to hear. And good for you for continuing to be the lighthouse for your daughter, I really love that you had all the decorations ready when she got home, you are an awesome dad! Keep it up!
Hey Roo
So glad to hear the positivity and enthusiasm from your last post! Glad to hear your daughter seems happy too. I just got our tree and lights etc and S and I will put it up together this weekend. I've been leaving little welcome home notes at the door when S comes back to mt house and he loves finding them. Maybe try this with your D? Sometimes there'll be his fave chocolate with the note too.
With the food thing, maybe pack D a little snack box with some small but nourishing items when she visits her mum.
Cheers, DS
Thank you to kas99, joejoe1, Thornton, Augusto, AnotherStander, DS9, and everyone else that has responded in the last few weeks. It has truly been a difficult time and I feel I have taken a step back from the precipice. My heart, body, and soul feel so raw. My soul feels like it has been burned badly and anything attempting to touch it causes immense searing hot pain. D13 needs me and I will be there.
It has truly been a difficult time and I feel I have taken a step back from the precipice. My heart, body, and soul feel so raw. My soul feels like it has been burned badly and anything attempting to touch it causes immense searing hot pain. D13 needs me and I will be there.
Still with you Roo. Is there a particular thought that gives you these feelings of rawness and burning, or is it the overall magnitude of the situation you've been in? You're getting IC right?
Keep posting and sharing your feelings. Thoughts and prayers are with you and your daughter mate
Definition from dictionary is not helpful.
for·give·ness
noun
the action or process of forgiving or being forgiven.
From Wikipedia:
Forgiveness is the intentional and voluntary process by which a victim undergoes a change in feelings and attitude regarding an offense, lets go of negative emotions such as resentment and vengeance (however justified it might be), and with an increased ability to wish the offender well. Forgiveness is different from condoning (failing to see the action as wrong and in need of forgiveness), excusing (not holding the offender as responsible for the action), forgetting (removing awareness of the offense from consciousness), pardoning (granted for an acknowledged offense by a representative of society, such as a judge), and reconciliation (restoration of a relationship).
We all talk about forgiveness in some form on this forum but I want to know what each of you believe forgiveness is. I have been having discussions with my D13 about this and it is a central topic at her catholic school. It seems so many people have differing beliefs on what forgiveness is. I would love to have a great conversation here about it.
It's the act of letting go of your feelings regarding negative acts perpetrated on you by another person and ceasing to allow them to affect you any longer. You do it for yourself, not for them. If they come along for the ride too, that's an extra benefit.
Google These:
Radical Forgiveness
Forgiving the unforgivable
They were extremely helpful to me. My discussions with my kids also included the subject of "true apologies" vs "surface ones". Much easier to forgive someone who expresses they are truly remorseful and shows changes in behavior.
What about the definition do you not find helpful?
Forgiveness is the act of no longer holding a transgression or wrong against another being.
the definition wasn't helpful because it says forgiveness is the act of forgiving.
I appreciate you starting the discussion of forgiveness. I find the Wikipedia explanation useful. It is not easy to be the bigger person.
It gets easier to forgive a person once enough time has gone by and/or the person has demonstrated enough remorse / change. It's hard to forgive immediately after something happens. Can't be a bigger person and repeatedly get sh*t on.
I hope for everyone here that today has at least one moment where your heart and mind are at rest.
Is there a particular thought that gives you these feelings of rawness and burning, or is it the overall magnitude of the situation you've been in? You're getting IC right?
I can't afford both IC for D13 and myself. I think it is the overall magnitude of the situation. In the span of 6 months I have lost my wife, my mom, my stepdad, and half of my friends. The part that hurts is the realization that what I thought I had never really existed. My XW said right after she left that she hadn't really loved me since she started her first affair on me 12 years ago. The understanding that my parents have never really tried to keep me in their lives except when they needed money. It is a lot to take in such a short amount of time.
List of things I am thankful for:
Daughter
House
Job
Couple of close friends
This website
Health
Please stick to one thread until you've reached 100 postings/replies. You can change your thread title at any time within a thread.
I can't afford both IC for D13 and myself.
Mate, if IC is something you feel will help you, then I'm offering to pay for a few sessions for you. Just choose which IC you want then work out how I can get some funds across to the IC from here in Oz because I have no idea about this kind of stuff. You can pay me back if and when you're able to, ok.
Happy thanksgiving to you and your daughter mate. You bloody Yanks have too many cool holidays!
Cheers, DS
D13 and I went to thanksgiving at one of my friends house. D13's mom did not email, text or call D13 to wish her a happy thanksgiving. My parents also did not email, text, or call me or D13 to wish her a happy thanksgiving.
DS I appreciate the gesture and as fate would have it a friend today offered the same thing. I will have one session next week and will see if that will be of any help.
My parents also did not email, text, or call me or D13 to wish her a happy thanksgiving.
Do you think a call or email to them just laying it out about how you feel with their total lack of support or interest would wake them up? Do they geuinely not care, or have they no idea about how all this has effected you and D?
DS I appreciate the gesture and as fate would have it a friend today offered the same thing. I will have one session next week and will see if that will be of any help.
No worries Roo. Glad to hear you're getitng into IC and hope it helps you work things out!
Here in Oz you can get heavily subsidised counselling if you get referred from a Dr. I imagine that's not on offer in the USA?
Cheers, DS
Do you think a call or email to them just laying it out about how you feel with their total lack of support or interest would wake them up?
I tried that and she blamed me for everything. I told her it hurt that she hasn't come to my house to see D13 or myself and she said "that is a lie, you told me not to come over." There is no way I would have said that. I confronted her about the nasty texts and she denied those as well until I said I had them right in front of me on my phone. She either denied everything or turned it around and said it was my fault. I asked her why I had to always call her and she never called me and she said that was not true even though I also have phone records proving that. My mom is exactly like my XW.
On a positive note I took D13 today into the mountains and we cut down a beautiful Christmas tree. When we got home we decided it would be a great idea to make our own ornaments. We have been having so much fun decorating and listening to music. This is a good thing because she has been having a really hard time lately. She keeps asking "why did mom leave, we were such a happy family." It plays in her mind over and over when her mom told her "I want your dad to raise you and I will see you sometimes." I have no answers for her
Gee Roo I'm so sorry about your mum. That's got to be really tough having her fling all that stuff at you.
With your comment about XW being just like mum, do you think this was a subsonscious motivation or spark of chemistry that attracted you to your XW? I'm not asking to be weird or anything, just some of the stuff I've read says sometimes the spark of attraction is made subconsciously and we essentially "marry our mum (or dad)" to heal unresolved issues of put us back into the environment we had when growing up.
Great to hear about the xmas tree and all the fun you had with D!
Cheers, DS
With your comment about XW being just like mum, do you think this was a subsonscious motivation or spark of chemistry that attracted you to your XW?
They don't look like each other but they do act very similar. Reflecting back I think it was a lot like putting myself in an environment I had growing up. My XW like my mom love me as long as I am meeting their needs and they are the center of my attention. As soon as I stop meeting their needs and work on myself they want nothing more to do with me, become very passive aggressive, and sometimes down right mean. They both have inner demons that they need to work through and I wanted to be their saviors. Instead I have been swallowed by their pain, suffering, anger, and self loathing. The only way out I can see right now is to remove myself completely and let them have the space to work on themselves or continue in their misery.
So I was talking with a friend this weekend and found out my XW is completely trashing me at her workplace. The only problem is talk like this eventually gets back to D13 because a lot of the people she works with send their children to our school. D13 has a hard time when she hears all this nasty stuff about me and knows it isn't true. She continues the theme many of us are going through: I was always abusive, controlling, angry, manipulative, not masculine enough, lazy, etc...
Still trying to keep my chin up but my car broke down this weekend. I am really hoping 2020 goes better.
Hey Roo,
Sorry to hear about your car mate. What's wrong with it? Fixable?
Thanks for your thoughts on the link between XW and your mum(mom). It was an eye opener for me when my sister (who doesnt know my XW that well) told me one of her first impressions of my XW was that she was so much like my mum in not having empathy, and seeing things very black and white. In contrast, my mum was a self absorbed slothful woman, whereas XW was strong and independant, which was one of the main attractions for me. We shared mothers who emotionally abandoned us. Abandonment was the distilled energy we shared. That energy played out in my sitch.
Since BD, I've gone on a deep dive with childhood issues and how they subconsciously play out in the M and destroy things eventually.
Cheers, DS
More adventures in D13 and her visitations with her mother. D13 got back from her visitation with her mom and was extremely frustrated. She has asked her mom to stop giving her presents and her mom has agreed but as soon as she gets to her mom's house there are presents waiting for her on the bed. She has told her mom Christmas is really difficult and that she was hoping to keep it very low key. When she got to her mom's house there was a big Christmas tree with all the decorations waiting to be put on, house decorations waiting to be hung, Christmas music playing, and cookies ready to be made. Normally I would be all for this but D13 had asked her specifically not to do this because of the hurt it was causing her. Her mom would have none of it, even though D13 was crying, continued on with what she was doing like nothing was wrong and hounded D13 until she helped. She also asked D13 if she could ask me to switch days so I could have D13 Christmas Eve and Christmas Day and she would take a different day earlier in the week. Her mom said this was because she wanted to make sure we have plenty of time to drive to Disneyland. We aren't leaving on Christmas Eve and D13 told her that but her mom said well you can get plenty of rest and I wanted to help you out. D13 found out the real reason is because her mom has a party to go to Christmas Eve and doesn't want to miss it. At the end her mom asked or told her "I did much better this visitation respecting your boundaries didn't I." D13 just shrugged her shoulders at her and when she got home cried for a good hour telling me all these details.
On a positive note after much consideration for the past three months, my friends convincing arguments, and D13's pleading looks, we have decided to get a dog. D13 said the dog should be more loyal and trustworthy than the one who walked out on us. I tried my best not to laugh. My car is also fixed and am crossing my fingers there are no more problems in that realm.
I am still working on myself and trying to detach from a fictional person I was together with for 22 years. Reflecting back I am starting to feel that my XW had multiple affairs on me for many years. I will never know the truth but the signs are all the same each time. We are divorced now but I guess it helps with the letting go part to accept she wasn't the person I put on a pedestal.
XW sent me an email that she would like me to have D13 Christmas Eve. Why would a mom give up her visitation with her daughter on Christmas eve? She only has her 52 days of the year and she wants me to have her on Christmas Eve. Oh well, I told her I would love to have D13. Since I have the extra time I am going to take her to an NBA game and then after we will go to Disneyland. I can't wait I am so excited.
XW sent me an email that she would like me to have D13 Christmas Eve. Why would a mom give up her visitation with her daughter on Christmas eve? She only has her 52 days of the year and she wants me to have her on Christmas Eve. Oh well, I told her I would love to have D13. Since I have the extra time I am going to take her to an NBA game and then after we will go to Disneyland. I can't wait I am so excited.
That sounds like an incredible Christmas Eve!! Awesome!
D13 said the dog should be more loyal and trustworthy than the one who walked out on us. I tried my best not to laugh.
It made me laugh! Plus that's setting the bar pretty low
I am still working on myself and trying to detach from a fictional person I was together with for 22 years. Reflecting back I am starting to feel that my XW had multiple affairs on me for many years. I will never know the truth but the signs are all the same each time. We are divorced now but I guess it helps with the letting go part to accept she wasn't the person I put on a pedestal.
Yup you're starting to come out of the LBS fog and see things more realistically.
Regarding your XW doing all the Christmas decorations and cookies and stuff, props to her for at least trying. It's a shame D was upset over it but all you can do is listen (to your D) and validate. Don't be tempted to throw your XW under the bus.
Christmas Eve, don't sweat it. You get another day with D so it's all good. You can't make your XW be a good mom, so don't try.
My WAH blew off Thanksgiving. Have no idea what he will do for Christmas.
Hey Roo,
Glad to hear your car's fixed and you're getting a dog!
I'm sorry to hear about your bad feelings regarding thoughts XW may have had multiple affairs. Isn't it hard not to put the woman we love on a pedestal.
Anyway, hope the xmas leadup is going well for you and your daughter.
Cheers, DS
Does it ever get any better feeling the loss when D13 leaves for visitation? It rips my heart and soul out when she leaves. Anyone who has been following my sitch do you think I will ever receive any communication in my life from XW as to why she just left. May 23, 2019 she said "I don't love you anymore" and then the next morning left. She has never brought up our relationship since only stuff about finances and visitation. In fact she will not look at me or come near me. At pickup she will not come within 50ft of me and has never said a spoken word to me 4 months.
Hey roo I know that feeling when your child leaves. My S goes for a week and it’s still tough sometimes. The first time it felt really bad but it gets better.
I don’t know if your XW will ever communicate why she left but in your sitch it wasn’t because of you mate. It was her own issues that she largely hid from you til bd when she couldn’t cope anymore. I think I remember you saying she had childhood issues too. In my sitch I got many many reasons some of which I understood others were just selfish and weird. I think the hurt comes from not being given a chance or an opportunity.
Give it time mate
Disneyland land was awesome and D13 and I created so many memories. After Disneyland I took her to the Hollywood sign, Griffith Observatory, and Hollywood Blvd to look at all the stars on the walk of fame. For the most part we were able to live in the moment. Both of us dread going back but we know we have to do it. The rollercoaster ups and downs don't seem to be as large but they are still there. We both still have our moments of why did she do this.
D13 got back from a visitation with her mother. It did not go well at all. Essentially D13 wants an apology from her mother and her mother doesn't believe that she has done anything wrong. She keeps moving the conversation back to our relationship and telling D13 that "your dad is feeding you misinformation, and if you only knew the truth." So D13 will say what is the truth then and her mom will say "you aren't old enough to know and you don't know what happened behind closed doors." Part of me would love to know as well. What does she feel happened to necessitate leaving your entire family in one day. I mean she just dropped everything and left. All she did was pack a bag and left everything else behind. It was only because D13 and I packed all her clothes that she picked up the next day, without coming near me, that she even has all her clothes.
Everyone here seems to have some sort of communication but mine is only by email and only in regards to D13 and only when I initiate that like letting her know about therapy appointments (not that I am complaining). D13 was running a little behind when her mom came to pick her up and instead of coming to the door, knocking, and asking if D13 was almost ready she emails me and says she has been waiting for over 10 minutes. She can't even come to the door to pick up D13?
I can't even begin to understand what misinformation she thinks I am feeding D13 because I don't even really talk about her all that much. Mostly I just answer questions when D13 asks them. She might be referring to the alleged affair the second BD but that didn't come from me it came from D13 because she had seen them together. I didn't even know about it until after she had left and D13 told me about it. She denies anything happened to this day and keeps telling D13 that she must have seen someone else holding hands with him and it wasn't her. Regardless D13 tries to tell her mother that the anger has to do with how she feels her mother is treating her not about the other stuff. D13 says her mother says I am sorry and starts crying but can't say what she is sorry for then when D13 puts her on the spot her mother just gets angry and then after that tries to make D13 feel guilty and the cycle goes on and on.
D13 says her mother wants to get a new therapist because she doesn't like D13's therapist. I can't imagine why since D13's therapist calls her mother out on things all the time when they are having a session together. D13 tells me that her therapist is always telling her mother "that isn't what you said last time in the session we had alone together." D13's therapist even told D13 that her mother tried to lecture her on how to be a good mother. I laughed that my XW was lecturing a therapist specializing in children on how to be a good mother.
After their huge blowup during the visitation where D13 started calling her mother by her first name, told her she isn't her mother anymore except in a biological sense, that she doesn't like her as a person, and doesn't want to work or have a relationship at all with her currently or in the near future, my XW goes downstairs and cooks lunch. When D13 goes down to ask to leave XW is as happy and bubbly as ever. How can someone switch on a dime like that and act as if nothing even happened? It doesn't make sense to me. D13 said she acted as if the conversation didn't even happen.
What does she feel happened to necessitate leaving your entire family in one day. I mean she just dropped everything and left. All she did was pack a bag and left everything else behind
I can tell you what I think happened to my WAH. I look back on my 28 year marriage and I don't think he was ever truly happy. Not enough money, he got passed over at work, I'm not good enough, nothing was ever his fault. He couldn't contain his unhappiness anymore so he exploded and ran away.
Since he left me he got promoted, has more money, has friends to hang out with, party with and he got OW. Life is grand proving yet again that I was the problem all along.
I can't even begin to understand what misinformation she thinks I am feeding D13 because I don't even really talk about her all that much.
The misinformation is likely that you're not taking ownership of everything and singing her praises. She's a great wife and mother just ask her she will tell you. Gag. My WAH has no concept of the part he played in this mess. Yes I made a lot....a lot of mistakes but he wasn't perfect either.
I laughed that my XW was lecturing a therapist specializing in children on how to be a good mother.
WAH criticized my parenting in front of S19, angry at how lenient I am with D17. S19 said no one cares about this but him. I told S19 that if he wanted to parent differently he shouldn't have left (yes an uncalled for dig). S19 said he didn't parent well when he was here. Touche.
When D13 goes down to ask to leave XW is as happy and bubbly as ever. How can someone switch on a dime like that and act as if nothing ever happened?
My support group instructor said this is how WAH's brain protects him from facing the truth. He tells himself just enough to go back to being the hero of his own story. It's the therapists fault you know that right?? lol
It did not go well at all. Essentially D13 wants an apology from her mother and her mother doesn't believe that she has done anything wrong. She keeps moving the conversation back to our relationship and telling D13 that "your dad is feeding you misinformation, and if you only knew the truth." So D13 will say what is the truth then and her mom will say "you aren't old enough to know and you don't know what happened behind closed doors."
Breaking it down your XW is lying, gaslighting and deflecting D13. That is so incredibly sad. What a terrible way to treat your own child who is going through so much herself! Rooskers, all you can do is continue to be the lighthouse. You can't fix your XW, and you can't fix her R with D. Don't even try. Remember your listening and validating skills and use them on D13. Do not try to explain or defend your XW's actions. When D13 talks about it, just listen intently and tell her how sorry you are she is going through this and ask if there's anything you can do to help her. If you listen and validate it will help your D to understand her feelings are legitimate and that you respect them, and that's what she needs right now.
Part of me would love to know as well. What does she feel happened to necessitate leaving your entire family in one day. I mean she just dropped everything and left.
XW doesn't even know, and you never will either. accepting that you will never know is an important step in detaching.
I can't even begin to understand what misinformation she thinks I am feeding D13 because I don't even really talk about her all that much.
Read up on gaslighting and deflecting. The whole purpose of it is to keep you off-balance and questioning your own sanity. In that regard it's still working to some extent or you wouldn't be asking these questions!
D13's therapist even told D13 that her mother tried to lecture her on how to be a good mother. I laughed that my XW was lecturing a therapist specializing in children on how to be a good mother.
I can't remember, but have we talked about your XW possibly being a narcissist? Gaslighting is one of a narcissist's favorite tools. Another is intimidation. Here is a blurb from a website on narcissism:
Frequently demeans, intimidates, bullies, or belittles others
Narcissists feel threatened whenever they encounter someone who appears to have something they lack—especially those who are confident and popular. They’re also threatened by people who don’t kowtow to them or who challenge them in any way. Their defense mechanism is contempt. The only way to neutralize the threat and prop up their own sagging ego is to put those people down. They may do it in a patronizing or dismissive way as if to demonstrate how little the other person means to them. Or they may go on the attack with insults, name-calling, bullying, and threats to force the other person back into line.
Who in the world would lecture a therapist on how to be a good mother? A narcissist, that's who.
After their huge blowup during the visitation where D13 started calling her mother by her first name, told her she isn't her mother anymore except in a biological sense, that she doesn't like her as a person, and doesn't want to work or have a relationship at all with her currently or in the near future, my XW goes downstairs and cooks lunch. When D13 goes down to ask to leave XW is as happy and bubbly as ever. How can someone switch on a dime like that and act as if nothing even happened? It doesn't make sense to me. D13 said she acted as if the conversation didn't even happen.
More from the same site:
Exploits others without guilt or shame
Narcissists never develop the ability to identify with the feelings of others—to put themselves in other people’s shoes. In other words, they lack empathy. In many ways, they view the people in their lives as objects—there to serve their needs. As a consequence, they don’t think twice about taking advantage of others to achieve their own ends. Sometimes this interpersonal exploitation is malicious, but often it is simply oblivious. Narcissists simply don’t think about how their behavior affects others. And if you point it out, they still won’t truly get it. The only thing they understand is their own needs.
Lacking empathy, being oblivious to the problem, more traits of narcissism.
I was hoping 2020 was a year of letting go. I was informed this morning by my lawyer that my XW has retained a lawyer and will be fighting to amend the dissolution of marriage. What she is hoping to accomplish I have no idea yet. She may want more custody or maybe just wants to hurt me financially. The sad thing is no one will win by taking me to court. All she is going to do is destroy her relationship with her daughter even more and possibly hurt me so bad financially that D13 will suffer as a result. I will never understand.
Hey Roo,
I'm so sorry to hear about this mate. What an absolutey unwelcome PITA. Surely once eveything is finalised and made binding the person who wants to revisit has to cross some legal hurdles before being able to reopen and revisit the issues with the Court?
Good luck and stay strong my virtual DB brother!
Cheers DS
From everything I’ve read it’s difficult to amend finalized D papers. My sister tried multiple times with her ex and got nowhere.
Just writing my feelings.
I have never been so scared in my life. I hate waiting to see what my XW is going to legally attack me with or what she is going to try to do. I know ii my heart I have done nothing wrong and have only looked after the best interests of D13 but at the same time the law is not always fair or understanding. Yes I know there is nothing I can do until my lawyer receives papers from my XW's lawyer and I should stop assuming horrible scenarios. How do I stop the mind games I play with myself. I have a therapy session on Friday and hopefully that can help. I also continue to be D13's stability and try to show her that we will be just fine. D13 also has a therapy appointment so hopefully that will help her as well. I need to stop trying to understand why someone who I loved for 22 years would want to hurt me and become my worst nightmare. I can't control XW's actions and can only work on how I respond to the situation. I hurt though.
This didn't go her way so now she's going to see if the courts can wave their magic wand and make all her wishes come true. I know it's hard but try not to worry. My toxic parents came after me twice legally and nothing ever came of it.
I´m sorry roos. Time to lawyer up.
Face fear standing strong there. Show D13 how to fight adversity. She´s standing there with you.
Respect!
(((Roos)))
Journaling a little summary to try to keep things straight in my head.
~D13 at the beginning of this saw her mom with another guy and was constantly hearing her mom criticize me when they were alone
~May 24, 2019 she is pulled out of her class and was told by her mom I don't love your dad, I want him to raise you, and I will see you sometimes. I immediately schedule an appointment for D13 to see a psychologist at her doctor's practice.
~Mid June D13 goes to Hawaii with her mom, grandma, and best friend. Her mom and grandma fight so much it becomes physical. D13 feels ignored the whole trip and her mom pays more attention to her best friend (best friend's dad is the one D13 saw her mom with). D13 becomes sick on trip and has allergic reaction and mom won't help her. D13 hates the trip and her mom accuses her grandma of abuse and disowns her.
~Divorce finalized and her mom thanks me for the visitation schedule. Peace for the rest of summer D13 is coping well, she is fully in my custody and her mom never asks to see her. D13 doesn't want to see the psychologist anymore because her mom is going there privately and she feels he is treating her differently now.
~End of summer first visitation and when I go to drop off D13 I step out of car and her mother screams to stop touching her, stop hurting her, leave me alone and clutches her arm while doing it. D13 gets out of the car as I get back in and proceeds to lay into her mother about cheating, lying, and behaving like a child. She stays for an hour and continues to set boundaries and lecture her mom.
~First full visitation, D13 goes to her room and refuses to come out. When she finally comes out 2 days later her mom asks if she wants to got to a party with her new exercise friends. D13 on the last visit had said one of her boundaries was not associating with her new exercise friends.
~Second full visitation D13 is forced into therapy by her mom to work on their relationship. The day after the therapy session D13 has suicidal thoughts and makes a half hearted attempt at following through.
~Her mom accuses me of not providing D13 with the proper medical attention and not addressing the depression issues D13 is having. D13 refuses to go to a therapist because of the forced therapy visit she had with her mom.
~Third full visitation get a call from D13 screaming to come pick her up because her mom won't stop harassing her. Visit only lasts 2 hours.
~Her mother emails and accuses me and not providing D13 with proper medical care and causing the problems during their visitation times.
~Finally convince D13 to go to a therapist.
~D13 during a therapy appointment comes up with a modified visitation schedule that she feels will help her to adjust and her therapist says if it is implemented it should be from 3 months to a year to create consistency for D13. D13's mom agrees to the modified visitation schedule.
~D13 has the modified visitation and it seems to work well for D13. Her mom emails me after and says the visitation schedule won't work for her and she wants not only the original but even more time with D13.
~D13 continues to tell her mom what she needs to help her heal and her mom continues to fight back and blame me.
~Visitation becomes more confrontational with D13 setting boundaries and her mom not accepting them and D13 demanding to come back early for most visitations.
~D13 and her mom have a therapy appointment together and D13 unloads a lot of the anger she has had for her mom from the last 2 years. Her mom tells her a lot of the things she is bringing up are not true, then gets angry at her, then cries, then makes D13 feel guilty.
~Her mom continues to email me that I am causing the problems and the extreme distancing and that I need to help fix it.
~She tells her mom she is going to Disneyland for Christmas and in response her mom says she doesn't want her for Christmas Eve. D13 is happy and hurt by it all at the same time.
~New Years visitation is complete disaster because D13 is so angry at her and expresses all of it and says she is done with her mom and starts calling her by her first name. She tells her mom if she doesn't like it she can just go get a lawyer. Her mom gets angry back and D13 ends up coming back early.
~D13 refuses to go to the weekend visit with her mom but I make her go outside anyway to talk to her mom about it because she is legally required to go. So D13 takes the presents she asked her mom not to get her and dumps them next to her car and tells her she doesn't want to go with her. D13 stays with me that weekend.
~Her mom emails me and threatens my house which she is still on the title of and threatens my parents house which she owns a 25% share. Her mom also sets up an appointment with D13's therapist and sets up an appointment with D13's school.
~Lawyer informs me her mom has hired an attorney and is going to attempt to amend the divorce decree.
~D13 becomes livid and says her mom is completely dead to her and asks me how to get her own legal representation to see if she can completely sever all ties with her mom.
It just keeps going downhill
Concerning information
D13's mom met with the principal and counselor at D13's school. They told me at the meeting D13's mom was really concerned and apologized to them because she was blocked from communicating with D13 and was worried she could not let D13 know that she wouldn't be able to take her to ballet that day. Ok this wouldn't be so concerning except D13 hasn't been in ballet for an entire year. Both the principal and the counselor where dumbfounded because they both knew D13 had not been in ballet since last year but D13's mom was adamant that they let Caitlyn know she would not be able to take her to ballet that day.
I don't even know what to do with this information?????
Hey roo
This is just awful that she is acting like this.
Speak to your L about the prospects and options for a psychological report through the court system if XW drags it through that process. Not sure if these are available in the USA
Here in oz we have court appointed lawyers who act for children in certain situations. Again speak to your L about whether those options exist.
Good luck db brother
Your ex sounds like my late father. He was a narcissist and when his life unraveled he became delusional. I’ve told you this dozens of times but you ignore my advice repeatedly. Keep D13 away from her. Your ex has made your D suicidal and yet you continue to let your ex see her. Sever ties, let your D13 have her say, get her an attorney, fix this once and for all. Your ex needs to go.
I’ve told you this dozens of times but you ignore my advice repeatedly.
Sever ties, let your D13 have her say, get her an attorney, fix this once and for all. Your ex needs to go.
The law does not allow this even if it is my wish as well as D13's. I have had a lawyer from the beginning of this and that is why I have custodial custody of D13 which means she is in my custody all but 52 days of the year. D13 is also in therapy to help her out with these problems and that is going well. It isn't as easy as not letting my ex see her. I run the risk of being held in contempt of court and even of losing custodial custody of D13. I am waiting to see what she sends my lawyer and will proceed to use all legal means of protecting D13. I am very thankful for your contributions kas and you have given me a better insight to who my ex is. Please keep following and contributing.
So I received this email from XW and at first it doesn't appear harmful at all.
If staying the night is too difficult for D13 I'll drive her home each night and pick her up the following day for our upcoming weekend. Please let me know what the plans are.
Also once D13 finds out about her Award please let her know I'm so proud of her outstanding accomplishment and I would love to be there to support her special recognition. Please let me know if I may attend.
The problems I have with this are she wants me to tell her what the plans are for her weekend with D13 and is asking me permission to attend one of D13's events. After much reflection, this has been a huge problem in our relationship since we first got together 22 years ago. XW liked to ask me for permission to do things and if I answered yes I reinforced the fact she needed permission in the first place, if I answered no then I was emotionally abusive and controlling, and if I told her she didn't need my permission I wasn't the masculine leader in the family she was looking for. Now that she is trying to amend the divorce decree, accusing me of extreme distancing, and blocking her from D13's events, this email takes on a very manipulative feel. If I tell her what the plans are for her weekend, even if I say it is what D13 wants, then she accuses me of controlling her time with D13, but if I don't say anything then I am not communicating as a co-parent. The second part asking me for permission results in the same dilemma. I have told her over and over I don't control her time with D13 and she doesn't need my permission to attend any event of D13's. She rewords every email I send however to make it appear that everything being done is my decision. Especially when she brings D13 home early from her visit, I get an email after that I am causing extreme distancing.
Any advice would be very much appreciated.
Hey Roo
What does the legal agreement/order say about what the XW is on about (dont tell us though as it may be confidential)? If it's covered in the document, go with what's in there, and maybe say "Hi XW, thanks for asking. I think it's best if we just stick to our legal agreement. Will let D know of your well wishes - thank you. Regards, Roo".
On 2nd thoughts, Given the circumstances where she is taking it back to Court, I frankly feel this is something that should be corresponded between your respective L's, and I also agree with your feelings behind why the email was sent. This sidelines you having to get involved and removes the dilemma of how you would respond. YOur L can advise you about the legal agreement, and what are your options in responding.
Do that through your L, and be done with it mate.
Here was my response to her last email:
XW,
As always, the organization, coordination, and fulfillment of your visitation weekend plans with D13 are between you and her. I do not influence how or what you do during that time. This is not my role. I will, of course, have D13 ready at the agreed upon pickup time. Please communicate or have D13 let me know if you and D13 agree to any changes to your visitation time so I can be available as needed.
You do not need my permission to attend D13's award luncheon and have the right to ask D13 how she feels about it if you so choose. You have always had the freedom to pursue your interests and manage your freee time as you see fit. Now that we are divorced, I hope you continue to feel empowered to do so, without any perceived negative influence from anyone else. You have the unique opportunity to truly find out who you are as an individual. I wish you only the best.
Rooskers
I thought I did well in making it clear she is in her charge of her time with D13 and not me. In the second part I wanted to counter her continued belief that I am the one in control of her life and also to give her a kind of friendly goodbye. I truly hope she does the work to find out who she is and wish her the best.
Hey roo
How you doing buddy?
Well written email mate but I’ve got a couple of 2x4’s which I’m swinging your way with respect and the best intentions.
First, take advice on getting kids involved in coming up with arrangements with the other parent. Here in oz that’s a huge no no, as is unwittingly putting them in the position of being messengers
Second, by saying it’s up to XW and your daughter to come up with arrangements you expose yourself to being sidelined and not having input, and having that ‘it’s not my call ‘ position used against you if it goes to court.
Third, like I said in my above post speak to your L and don’t diy legal stuff.
Fourth, parenting arrangements are adult issues to be communicated by adults. If you can’t communicate with XW then get your L to do it.
Fifth why are these things up in the air and being discussed if you have a binding parenting agreement? All this should have been covered.
I hope I’m not being harsh mate, but I care for what you’re going through and want to help you .
Cheers ds
DS I always love advice and take it as a way to reflect on my actions and improve myself. I am going to try to explain and the situation and see if you still disagree with my actions. I will try not to come across as defensive I am truly just trying to find the best way to help D14 navigate this struggle.
Fifth why are these things up in the air and being discussed if you have a binding parenting agreement? All this should have been covered.
We have a binding parenting agreement that the judge signed off on. An example, because I don't want to give the actual agreement online, is she is suppose to have D14 every other weekend starting at 5pm Friday until Sunday at 5pm. I help D14 pack and we take all her stuff to school and at 5pm I walk her down the stairs, hug her and she goes with her mom. The problem comes up when D14 tells her mom or asks me to tell her mom that she wants to come home early. The other issue is when XW asks me for permission to do things during her visitation time as if I am the judge who can tell her what to do.
Second, by saying it’s up to XW and your daughter to come up with arrangements you expose yourself to being sidelined and not having input, and having that ‘it’s not my call ‘ position used against you if it goes to court.
Example of arrangements that I am talking about is this weekends upcoming dance. This Friday is her visitation time with D14 and she will have physical custody of D14. XW emails me and asks what the plans are before and after the dance. She does this a lot even though it is her custody time with D14 and so if I answer D14 would like to get ready at her friends house, go to the dance, and then spend the night at her friends house she will accuse me of interfering with her visitation time. Another example would be when she asks me if D14 would like to go to a party at one of XW's house during her visitation time and if I ask D14 and she says no thank you and I let XW know she doesn't wish to go then XW will accuse me of interfering with her visitation and turning D14 against her friends. I do believe that the arrangements they make during XW visitation time is between D14 and her and it causes an unhealthy triangle if she tries to bring me in on the decision making of what they do during XW time with D14. The lawyer recommended I stay out of their time together and that is what I meant by the statement
"the organization, coordination, and fulfillment of your visitation weekend plans with D13 are between you and her" I would not ask my XW for permission to take D14 to the movies during my visitation time and don't want her asking my permission for what she does during her time.
First, take advice on getting kids involved in coming up with arrangements with the other parent. Here in oz that’s a huge no no, as is unwittingly putting them in the position of being messengers
This is the most difficult part. For example, D14 has an upcoming visitation with her mom from Friday at 5pm until Sunday at 5pm but she doesn't want to go the entire time and tells me this. I tell D14 there is nothing I can do because that is what is stipulated in the legal agreement. D14 will then go to a therapy appointment and tell her therapist that it would help her to build trust and a sense of security if she can go from Friday at 5pm until Saturday at 5pm so she can use Sunday to recover emotionally. I don't enter into that discussion because I don't want to influence D14 either way. After the therapy session D14 with her therapist let me know what D14 would like me to ask her mom. I then let D14 know that I can ask her mom but if she says no then you must follow what is in the legal agreement. I would then email XW what D14 has discussed in therapy and if she would agree to it to let me know so I can be available for an earlier dropoff. XW would return D14 on Saturday at 5pm like D14 asked but then after send me an email saying I was distancing her from D14 and not following the legal agreement. I would then respond that you have physical custody of D14 and you returned her to me by your choice and that . Finally the therapist said this was not healthy for anyone and told me I needed to remove myself from the unhealthy communication triangle. So D14's therapist has been working on D14 communicating what she would like during her visitation time with her mother instead of me having to be the go between which leads to all the accusations.
Fourth, parenting arrangements are adult issues to be communicated by adults.
If I want D14 beyond my scheduled visitation to take D14 on a vacation then I would certainly communicate this desire with my XW before even bringing it up with D14. It wouldn't be fair to ask D14 to ask her mom if she can go with me on an extended vacation because this puts both D14 and her mother in an unfair position. Likewise if her mom would like to have her for additional time I would like her to go through me first so D14 doesn't feel like she has to arrange or be a go between. I would also be in violation if I kept asking for D14 during XW visitation time and not having her ready or denying visitation. However if D14 wants to go home early from her visitation with her mom then that is between her mom and her because I have no legal right or responsibility in that decision. If she is coming home early I just need either XW or D14 to say "hey D14 will be coming home on Saturday at 5pm instead of Sunday."
Ideally the visitation plan is just followed as outlined but when you have a 14 year old who says I don't want this and an XW who wants me to make decisions regarding what they do during their visitation time then it becomes infinitely more difficult. I would love more suggestions.
I am thinking that my thread should be moved to the surviving big D forum as it doesn't have much to do with newcomers anymore. Can one of the moderators move this unless they think my threads can be beneficial in some way to newcomers.
I just got a call at work from a lawyer informing me D14 has retained her services.
Hey Roo
Sorry I havent been around as I've been preoccupied. I'll be onboard soon to offer some support and further thoughts.
Thinking of you in the meantime mate
Hey Roo
Sorry I haven't checked in with you til now.
Firstly, how are you feeling about your daughter instructing a lawyer? How does she even do that? It sounds like a good thing though. Have you read up on what these child advocate lawyers do, their role, responsibilities etc?
Man you're in a tough situation with parenting with the XW.
As to coming home early, I think it best if you talk to your L to find out your obligations and rights when your D asks this. Otherwise, if it suits, take D ealry if XW suggests this, and ignore her feelings about you somehow sabotaging her time with D.
With the XW dropping off D early at your request then sending emails makes no sense in that if she consents to dropping early then complains about it, it is disingenuous and self serving. Kind of like having a contract where you have to pay her $100 for a service, she takes $50 instead without complaint, then complains afterwards, but keeps doing the same thing.
I agree you need to remove yourself from the communication triangle.
Hopefully this lawyer for your D will be able to take control of doing things that can independently evaluate what D wants and is in her best interests and go about getting that locked into a further legal agreement.
Cheers DS
Otherwise, if it suits, take D ealry if XW suggests this, and ignore her feelings about you somehow sabotaging her time with D.
I never take D14 early it is XW who drops her off. I don't feel it would be right if every time D14 gets in a fight with her mom D14 feels she has the right to call me to come get her. XW would definitely have legal grounds to say I am violating the visitation if I was the one picking D14 up. If XW feels she needs to drop D14 off or they come to some agreement themselves for D14 to come home early I am always available.
With the XW dropping off D early at your request then sending emails makes no sense in that if she consents to dropping early then complains about it, it is disingenuous and self serving.
It is never my request for D14 to be dropped off early it is either D14's request made to her mom or her mom does it herself. Once again I have communicated D14's request in email but no longer do that because of the accusations.
This is why this whole thing is frustrating. The problem is between D14 and her mother but XW feels the need to put all the blame on me for their relationship troubles. D14 just wants someone on her side to defend her against her mom but I can't be that person hence the IC and now her own lawyer. I did not encourage or ask D14 to get a lawyer she did it herself which caught me completely off guard. The accusations of me abusing my XW and that she left me because I wasn't safe have increased tremendously now that she has a lawyer and is wanting to change the divorce agreement. If I was so abusive and unsafe why did she leave D14 with me? It is hard to not take things like that personally since I never cussed at her, hit her, mocked her, degraded her. In fact, I was her biggest supporter. I don't know where all the hate and anger being hurled at me is coming from.
Plan of Action
1)Stay in my individual therapy and work on me.
2)Continue to stay as dark as possible and only respond when legally necessary.
3)Keep things as normal as possible for D14 when we are at home (chores, teeth brushing, homework, dinner at table, etc.)
4)Continue to let go of the past and work on setting goals for my future
5)Try not to stress about legal matters
5)Get a dog
Hi Rooskers,
I have been on the forum for 4 months now but have yet to post. I just wanted to say that I am following your situation and I hope things even out for you eventually, the ups and downs can be so overwhelming.
Did you ever figure out why EXW met with the school over ballet when D has not been in ballet for over a year? Was she trying to use this as an official contact with the school in order to have things on record that she is denied communication with your daughter? This is kind of spooky and definitely warrants some psychological thought.
Definitely use your lawyer to guide you through these decisions, that is the smartest approach you can take to protect yourself.
USC
Did you ever figure out why EXW met with the school over ballet when D has not been in ballet for over a year?
She pulled D14 out of class last year to tell her "I don't love your dad anymore, I want him to raise you, and I will see you sometimes." This was what D14 told me right after and her story has stayed consistent. XW came to the school to establish a new story for why she did what she did. XW has rewritten the story to say that I was preventing her from seeing D14, she was afraid of me, and she did not know how to notify D14 that she would not be able to pick her up to take her to ballet that day. She told them that coming to school and pulling her out of class was the only way to communicate this to D14. I was told she cried during the whole thing and kept saying how very afraid she was of me and she was only just trying to let D14 know that she couldn't take her to ballet. D14 laughed and said "dad this is why I don't respect her as a mother anymore."
I have found out from D14 that one of her new best friends is a counselor which explains all the therapist jargon in her emails (extreme distancing, parental alienation, treatment goals). Since Christmas break has ended she has increased the allegations against me to her coworkers, friends, and community on how she had to leave me for her safety. All of this coincides with her getting a lawyer to amend the entire divorce decree. I have a meeting today with my lawyer and we will see what he says.
Love her logic she had to leave for HER safety yet she was perfectly fine leaving D14 there. Um good luck with that.
~Continuing my journey~
I got an email telling me XW would be late to pick up D14 for her visitation time. I replied back with "Thank you for letting me know." She ended up not being late but I find it ironic that on New Year's Day when D14 was running behind and was a little late getting out to the car I got a nasty email saying how she has been waiting in the car for 10 minutes and demanding to know where D14 was.
Visitation was another disaster. I was sitting on the couch at around 7:30pm Saturday evening when the door opened and there was D14 who quickly slammed it shut. D14 wasn't expected back with me until evening of the next day. She was crying and extremely angry. I waited to see if she needed me to listen or if she just needed some space. In the end she gave me a coupon for a 2 minute hug that I made for her a couple days previously. I made her a bunch of fun different coupons for things like hugs or board games time. After the hug we sat on the couch and out comes the flood of frustration from D14's mouth. I am currently waiting for the email from my XW blaming me for the shortened visitation and how I am causing extreme distancing, I am manipulative, I am emotionally abusing XW, I am not co-parenting, I am lying, etc... I don't even bother responding anymore because there is no point.
XW continues to tell D14 that I was abusive behind closed doors, I am manipulative, I am controlling, I am not a good parent, I am a liar, etc... XW also tells D14 that she is not healthy if she is angry, she can't be healthy unless they have a relationship, that she shouldn't run away from her problems, and that she needs to have full custody and more visitation so she can help to fix D14. D14 tells her that it is healthy to be angry but not healthy if you act out in inappropriate ways with your anger. D14 tells her it is my choice to have a relationship with you and until you stop lying, admit what you have done, show empathy, and act like an adult, I have no desire to work on anything with you. D14 tells her that she isn't running away from her problems but working on them in therapy. Finally D14 said "dad is not the one who wants me to see you less, I do, so if you say you are taking him to court then what your really saying is you are taking me to court." D14 then said "visitation is about what is best for me not you so since you haven't been listening to me I have gotten a lawyer and am taking you to court so you will be forced to listen to me."
XW likes to tell her half truths and it angers D14 a lot. She told D14 she has been working on her relationship with her mom for months now. D14 calls up her grandma and asks if this is true and her grandma says "well she did email me a couple days ago accusing me of abusing her." XW tells D14 "I tried to get your dad to go to therapy but he wouldn't do it." Well she did say in an email to me a couple months after we were already divorced "you know if you would like to have a mediated discussion with my therapist that is still available." She tells D14 that she isn't lying about being abused behind closed doors but when D14 says "dad said he did no such thing so either he is lying or you are." XW responds "well, I am not lying." D14 responds "then you are calling my dad a liar." XW says "no I am not." D14 says "well if you aren't lying then you are certainly implying he is lying so you are calling my dad a liar." XW then says "I never called him a liar but..." At this point D14 tells her to shut up and goes upstairs, grabs her stuff, and tells her mom to take her home. Her mom then starts crying and says that this is all because you are being manipulated by your dad to hate me. D14 turns to her and says "Dad tells me that he didn't stop you from leaving because he loved you and that is what you wanted. Dad says he misses you but understands you need to journey on your own. I see him working on becoming a better person in therapy and working on what he did wrong in your relationship but he has to guess because you never talked to him but ran away. Dad also is the one who encourages me to have therapy visits with you and asks me to leave open the possibility of having a relationship with you. Dad doesn't talk bad about you unlike you." D14 then got in the car and put on her headphones and refused to talk with her mom the rest of the trip.
I am trying to see a light at the end of this. I just need to keep believing.
Rooskers, sorry I don´t have any advice for you but I just wanted to say I´ve read your sitch and yours is a tough one, especially compared to mine. You sound like such a great guy and definitely don´t deserve any of this. Sounds like you are being the best person you can be and what a great daughter you have standing up for you like that.
The positive thing about this is that you will come out at the end of this so much stronger and mentally prepared for anything if you use this to grow. And it sounds like you are.
Rooskers, your D is one intelligent, aware young lady. It is extremely unfortunate that her mother is so far behind her on the maturity scale. Hang tough my friend.
BenB thanks for the encouragement.
You sound like such a great guy and definitely don´t deserve any of this.
D14 said to me "dad I think you are a victim but you don't walk around or act like one." I told her that even though both of us will experience a lot of things in life we don't deserve, both good and bad, all we can do is choose how we respond.
Sounds like you are being the best person you can be and what a great daughter you have standing up for you like that.
The positive thing about this is that you will come out at the end of this so much stronger and mentally prepared for anything if you use this to grow.
My relationship with D14 was so strong for so many years and now it has been taken to a whole new level. I am truly blessed to watch D14 grow as an individual. D14 is also in a unique spot because she is witnessing me grow as well. We do so much together but also are able to do so much by ourselves.
BenB your sitch was the first one I read on this board and was one of the reasons I decided to join. I am sorry I haven't really contributed but know that I care.
AS - Thanks, her lawyer contacted me and said the only reason she was taking D14 on as a client was because of the maturity she showed during her phone conversation and office meeting she had with her.
You have a treasure there Roos. Keep shining for her. Truth will prevail.
Stand strong, both of you!
The light continues to shine on my new thread. Please join me there.
22 Years Gone Part 3