Divorcebusting.com
Posted By: KristinG Confused and Lost II - 10/31/19 05:50 PM
Hey everyone. Link to my OG thread.

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2867699&page=1

To Recap:

Me (32) WW (31) separated almost a year. No kiddos, 4 awesome dogs. She developed a friendship that made me uncomfortable. I pushed her away by doing all of the wrong things (begging, trying to be perfect, acting like a crazy woman). She and friend fell for one another. She's been back and forth between the two of us for a year and can't make a decision. I'm focusing on making my own path and living my life with or without her. She lives on her own, as do I.
Posted By: KristinG Re: Confused and Lost II - 10/31/19 05:55 PM
AS,

My biggest fear has been that she will call and say that everything between them is over and she just wants "us",etc. She has done this more than once and always returns to OW. Soooo, I am building those walls and keeping my distance because I don't trust her. I am just going to live my life and if she wants back into it, she's going to have to earn it. I mean really "woo" the heck out of me. If no actions and no pursuit, no sweat! I guess reading everyone's situations and looking at life, I am just thankful to have the life that I do and to be finally feeling like I'm worth something.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Confused and Lost II - 10/31/19 06:11 PM
Originally Posted by KristinG
My biggest fear has been that she will call and say that everything between them is over and she just wants "us",etc. She has done this more than once and always returns to OW.


So you prepare now and face your biggest fear.



Lets say she calls to tell you this. You just let it go to VM. You listen to VM:

Her"Please call me"


How SHOULD you respond? Her words mean nothing right now.

I would wait. Wait for her to call again. Let her leave VM again. You listen to it. You wait.

Might have to repeat this several times.


At some point you can text her: "Just saw you called. Can't talk now, but text me if it is important"

Read the text. Wait. Give yourself enough time to respond to her logically (what you SHOULD DO), not emotionally (What you FEEL like).



Posted By: may22 Re: Confused and Lost II - 10/31/19 06:41 PM
Hey Kristin, you're doing great! Re-read your thread and see how far you've come in just a few weeks in terms of how much more self-love and self-respect you're cultivating compared to before-- you are sounding so much stronger, more confident, less worried about her and focusing on what you need. You're not taking scraps anymore! You're amazing and I'm filled with admiration for you and how you're handling this. Does it make sense to take the next step when you're ready and slow down on the texting/calling? Probably... and I have every confidence you'll get there when it feels right.

Even if you don't end up doing anything social tonight-- maybe indulge in your favorite Halloween candy with a long bath or a silly scary movie! Treat yourself!
Posted By: KristinG Re: Confused and Lost II - 11/04/19 05:15 PM
Ok. Time for the weekend update.

Friday night spent at home relaxing and enjoying a crisp, cold night with some hot chocolate. Saturday ww left for a weekend getaway trip with one of her friends. They were going back to a Halloween pumpkin show, the same place where my nightmare began 1 year ago. Determined not to mope and continuing to GAL and live my best life, I put on my Halloween costume and went out with friends. WW and I were texting all day and night and I think it was killing her to not spend our festivities together. I'm happy to report that none of my decisions as of lately have been anything to do with her. If I want to go out with friends, I go. Not thinking "ohhh, I'll go and she will think or do xyz". So yeah, I'm caring much less about what she will think about anything I'm doing or not doing. WW called to say ILY and tell me good night. She expressed feeling sad that we weren't together and I just validated her feelings and said goodnight.

Sunday, ww calls me in the morning before the drive home. She invites me over for a football game and some food. I told her I didn't know yet whether I was going to get out. Instantly, she became short and hurt that I didn't readily accept. She promptly ended the phone call and remained distant the rest of the morning. I got up, made coffee, enjoyed my morning, and thought about whether to go. After much deliberation, I decided I would really enjoy myself. I went to her house, we cooked together (something we have always enjoyed), and watched our team play a horrible game - but loved it none the less. She wrapped me up in several hugs throughout the day and we almost kissed a couple of times.

I know some 2*4s are coming - and I'm completely OK with those. I'm still 100% focused on me, and truth be told, I have given up any drive or desire to fix this. Because here's the deal folks - WE CAN'T FIX ANY OF IT. It has taken me a long, long time to reach the point of surrender. But thank God, I'm finally here. Where I know without a shadow of a doubt I'm going to be ok either way. Heck, I might be better off without her. I don't know for sure, but I think things have ended with AP. Not to say that she won't be going back in 3 weeks time. Which is why I have walls up and am not getting attached to any notions. She hasn't talked about any of it, and I really don't care to ask. I'm done playing games and trying to win. I'm going to live my life.

I hope you all had a great weekend. Thanks for listening!
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Confused and Lost II - 11/04/19 07:15 PM
Have you come up with a list of non-negotiable's?
Posted By: KristinG Re: Confused and Lost II - 11/04/19 09:50 PM
R2C,

No. Truthfully, I can't even begin to think about them. Basically, I'm mentally to a point in which IF she decides to commit and we have some type of R talk, there are no more chances. If she commits, and then begins to contact AP - I'm out. I have finally accepted that our marriage, as it was, is over. If we are to R, it means a complete rebuild from the ground up. At this point, I'm unsure as to whether we can even salvage it, certainly not without a TON of work from both of us. I've given up and am just being friendly, moving on with my life, and waiting to see where her intentions lie. Her actions are certainly showing more commitment as she has been in almost constant communication since BD #2. I don't reach out to her, but I respond in a friendly manner. She texts as soon as she gets up and right before bed, calls on work breaks, etc. This is why I don't think (and don't worry I am believing nothing until actions offer proof) that she is still seeing AP. Thoughts and suggestions are welcome.
Posted By: may22 Re: Confused and Lost II - 11/05/19 07:34 PM
Hi Kristin,
I'll leave it up to others who are far more versed than I on the DBing techniques... but wanted to just say you sound great, really centered and strong. Keep it up!!
Posted By: unchien Re: Confused and Lost II - 11/05/19 07:47 PM
Kristin -

The quote below, which I read on the forum 6 months ago, helped me a lot. In particular it helped me kickstart me thinking about my non-negotiable's in very specific ways. And to understand how R would require a wholesale rebuild (as you mentioned above).

Having that list (and it's only 3 items) helps me feel strong and secure in my resolve to DB and not backslide into old relationship patterns. It also helps me recognize things like "Oh she's being friendly today, but I should not read anything into it."

Originally Posted by LH19
If you engage in a relationship with her again it should only be under the conditions that:

1) She sees you as someone of extremely high value
2) She views a relationship with you as something much better than a life with someone else or a life alone
3) She's willing to work to win you

Without those three things, she's going to walk again down the line, because she really doesn't have the motivation to work with you to change anything, your relationship will keep seeking the same equilibrium it has had because of how your personalities and issues come together.
Posted By: KristinG Re: Confused and Lost II - 11/05/19 09:05 PM
Hey May! Hope you're doing well - glad you are navigating communication with your H a little better. It's good to see you leaning back while at the same time communicating your strength and worth to him.

Unchien,

I need to read your entire sitch as I have read some really great advice from you on other threads.

Originally Posted by unchien


Having that list (and it's only 3 items) helps me feel strong and secure in my resolve to DB and not backslide into old relationship patterns. It also helps me recognize things like "Oh she's being friendly today, but I should not read anything into it."

Originally Posted by LH19
If you engage in a relationship with her again it should only be under the conditions that:

1) She sees you as someone of extremely high value
2) She views a relationship with you as something much better than a life with someone else or a life alone
3) She's willing to work to win you

Without those three things, she's going to walk again down the line, because she really doesn't have the motivation to work with you to change anything, your relationship will keep seeking the same equilibrium it has had because of how your personalities and issues come together.


I love this list! It conveys precisely what we should all be striving to accept for ourselves. Nothing less than this.

We hung out again last night as she asked me to join her at a friend's house. She was very thoughtful and sweet all night. She was very affectionate, and it was weird (but in a good way?). She even asked if it would be ok if she kissed me.

Throughout the night she made a few little comments about how she has really big plans to date me. That she has it "all planned out", she "has so much making up to do to me for everything she has put me through", that I have "been such an amazing wife and she never wants to lose me". I validated her desires and told her flirtatiously that yes, she will have a lot of work to do wink.

I have been reminding myself all day to believe none of what she says and only 50% of what she does. We will see where this road goes but I'm trying not to set any expectations on any outcome. The reason it felt weird in a good way is that she has tried to R and failed several times. BUT, none of those times were approached with seeing me with high value, a desire to only be in a R with me, and a willingness to work. They all felt like a "this is what I'm supposed to do" kind of reconciliation. Transversely, last night it felt like all 3 of the things you mentioned. Still no R talk and I am definitely not initiating that discussion. Still not wearing my wedding ring and I'm really focused on myself. She has to give a commitment before I will be willing to give one in return.
Posted By: Caligirl Re: Confused and Lost II - 11/06/19 01:57 AM
So glad to catch up on your thread .

Looks like you are doing good . When you don’t jump on her offer to spend time right away this is good . Your life goes forward with or without her . Keep yourself busy with GAL so you don’t jump at every opportunity.

She asked to kiss you because she is noticing the distance . Be careful not to get pulled in to quick .
Posted By: may22 Re: Confused and Lost II - 11/11/19 08:05 PM
Checking in-- how was the weekend?
Posted By: KristinG Re: Confused and Lost II - 11/11/19 08:37 PM
Time for another weekend update... (I say this every time like the cast of SNL. Thanks Seth Myers and Tina Fey!)

Why does it feel like 2 steps forward and then 3 steps back? A week ago, my ww was treating me like a queen. She was being so sweet and telling me that she has so much planned for us, she is going to treat me like I deserve to be treated, she's going to make up for all the pain and heartache.

Fast forward 5 days (Saturday night) and she initiates an R talk. She tells me that she doesn't want to be with me and that she does still want to be with OW. They have not spent time together, but that her heart is still with her. A few sentences later, she doesn't want to be with anyone and she just wants to be on her own, find herself again, blah blah blah, etc... Yet another few sentences later she tells me "I know you don't believe me, but I am not going to be with anyone" and "we're going to be ok, I promise".

I cried, but stayed calm and listened throughout her utter confusion. I sincerely believe her when she says that she loves me. But I don't think she truly knows what commitment means in the face of adversity. I told her that I can't be her best friend through this process. I let her know that the marriage we had is dead and that if we ever want to try again it has to be from scratch. I told her not to be offended if I don't reply to communications from her, and that I am going to do my best to remove her from my heart. We had a really heartfelt and honest discussion.

Yesterday, I went out and visited family and then went to dinner with some friends. I am determined to continue and focus on myself alone. GAL, time for myself, etc. It is surprisingly easier to be alone lately. Her actions are showing that she isn't prepared to let me go. She is calling and texting often throughout the day. My car broke down and she took it upon herself to make sure I took her truck to drive and got my car fixed for me. She is more helpful and thoughtful than she has been in while. I am pulling back and trying my best not to let her smooth talk get into my heart.

Considering going far more into NC. One downside is that I want to be a lighthouse for her to find her way back - and if I go NC I feel as though she will perceive it as if I'm giving up on us. I don't want to be a piece of cake either. Sometimes I feel like I'm her emotional rock and that is the perk of having me around. (I definitely have some co-dependence issues where I am too much of a fixer and a care-taker). One plus is that she has learned to stand on her own two feet financially, so she is not relying on me for anything monetary. This has allowed me to begin saving quite a bit.

Suggestions are always welcome and sorry for the stream of consciousness! I hope everyone is DBing and living their best life.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Confused and Lost II - 11/11/19 08:44 PM
Originally Posted by KristinG
Fast forward 5 days (Saturday night) and she initiates an R talk. She tells me that she doesn't want to be with me and that she does still want to be with OW. They have not spent time together, but that her heart is still with her. A few sentences later, she doesn't want to be with anyone and she just wants to be on her own, find herself again, blah blah blah, etc... Yet another few sentences later she tells me "I know you don't believe me, but I am not going to be with anyone" and "we're going to be ok, I promise".


Unfortunately that's an accurate reflection of the battle going on in her mind right now. She's confused and doesn't know what she wants, but she's pretty sure it's not you. Except she does want you to wait around and support her on her terms (cake-eat).
Quote


I told her that I can't be her best friend through this process. I let her know that the marriage we had is dead and that if we ever want to try again it has to be from scratch. I told her not to be offended if I don't reply to communications from her, and that I am going to do my best to remove her from my heart.


Good. Now show her you MEAN IT. Show her through your ACTIONS.

Quote
Considering going far more into NC. One downside is that I want to be a lighthouse for her to find her way back - and if I go NC I feel as though she will perceive it as if I'm giving up on us.


That's not a downside right now. That is exactly what you want her to think. She's got to feel like she will lose you before she'll regret her choices. By all means go as dark as you can.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Confused and Lost II - 11/11/19 09:23 PM
Quote
Time for another weekend update... (I say this every time like the cast of SNL. Thanks Seth Myers and Tina Fey!)
Funny, I was thinking the same thing before I read your explanation...

Quote
By all means go as dark as you can.
I am shouting the same thing (like SNL Our top story for tonight News for the Hard of Hearing - Chevy Chase)


How will she know how much she misses you if you are always available?
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Confused and Lost II - 11/11/19 09:33 PM
Glad to see you posting to kbuenob. I believe we need more woman helping these guys.

Posting to others will also help you. It allows you to think about things without your emotional attachment. It then becomes easier to apply your own advise to your own sitch.

HUGS
Posted By: Caligirl Re: Confused and Lost II - 11/13/19 02:45 AM
Definitely try to go NC .

She’s confused . All over the place emotionally and in her head. She has to go through that part alone .Keep yourself separate from the confusion . It is very hard to not talk or text someone you have been with for years . She has to feel you not being there .



Many hugs !!!
Posted By: kbuenob Re: Confused and Lost II - 11/13/19 05:00 AM
I appreciate everyone's help here! Thank you so much
Posted By: KristinG Re: Confused and Lost II - 11/13/19 05:14 PM
Thanks AS, R2C, Cali, and KB for the love and support.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change


Quote
By all means go as dark as you can.
I am shouting the same thing (like SNL Our top story for tonight News for the Hard of Hearing - Chevy Chase)


How will she know how much she misses you if you are always available?



^^ Haha that's so great (and so true) ^^


I still feel very much ok with either outcome for myself. I still have the ups and downs, but I am much more stable in handling my emotions. Making peace with the end of my MR has been intensely beneficial and I would not be working through that process without the help of everyone here. I know everyone is encouraging me to go full NC. I am horrible at following through (self imposed 2*4 to the face). I still think it's part of my process and journey. You are all correct in the fact that my ww is absolutely confused and unstable.

I've been going back and forth in my mind about Sandi's "Do What Works" mentality. The more I GAL, focus on myself, the more my ww is pursuing. On one hand, going NC doubles down on this perspective. On the other hand, going NC could also push ww away and directly with ap. If that happens, I am ok with moving on. However, my internal battle of questions stems from the fact that I feel so much more in control of my own destination. If I am strong and happy within myself, what is the harm in being the lighthouse and offering ww time and attention when she pursues? Is it wrong to allow time and friendly chats if I do so with the mentality that we are not together and I am focusing on my own healing? Can we truly heal while our WS is still involved in our daily life? Deep things to ponder.

((Hugs KB)) I know you're in the hardest part of the journey
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Confused and Lost II - 11/13/19 06:22 PM
Quote
Women fall in love in a man's presence, men tend to realize they are in love in a woman's absence. And sometimes all he needs is a little time to make that realization
You might think about how this applies in your sitch.

Originally Posted by KristinG
Is it wrong to allow time and friendly chats?

Do you understand the difference between attraction and seduction? I really like being seductive with my woman. I don't do it as much as I would like because it takes much more work. But it is worth the effort.

Quote
An easy conquest has a lower value than a difficult one; we are only really excited by what is denied us, by what we cannot possess in full. Your greatest power in seduction is your ability to turn away, to make others come after you, delaying their satisfaction.


the more obviously you pursue a person, the more likely you are to chase them away.



Posted By: KristinG Re: Confused and Lost II - 11/14/19 06:03 PM
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Quote
Women fall in love in a man's presence, men tend to realize they are in love in a woman's absence. And sometimes all he needs is a little time to make that realization
You might think about how this applies in your sitch.



It is such a brain twister to think about this in my sitch. I have thought about this and many other similar topics throughout the last year. Although we are both women, ww is far more masculine than I am. I tease her that she is a metrosexual lesbian because she cares more about fashion that I do though! It is an interesting dynamic because she likes to have a more "dominant" role. She opens doors, pulls my chair out, her arm around me and not vice versa, etc. In private, however, she is sooo much more of a girly girl. She likes to be pampered. We'll just say she is the little spoon. These interesting dynamics offer up much confusion when thinking about the man/woman perspective. Is she the type to fall in love in my presence, or the type to need time and space for realization?

I don't think there is a clear answer here and, truthfully, I am trying to change my thinking about how any actions I take influence her thoughts or feelings. I am, however, also trying to become the diamond. Whether or not we move into a place of reconciliation, I want to be the shinny rock. I read this quote and it made me happy so I will share it with all of you:

"YOU, queen, are a fantastic, sexy, intelligent, unique, rock star and anyone that has the privilege of being around you is a lucky b*tch."

I think more of us need to empower one another.

On your topic of attraction v seduction I am still trying to figure out methods of seduction. Again, not with my WW in mind, but just as a new skill for my own arsenal.

Kristin
Posted By: Traveler Re: Confused and Lost II - 11/14/19 07:07 PM
Originally Posted by KristinG
"YOU, QueenAdventurer, are a fantastic, sexy, intelligent, unique, rock star and anyone that has the privilege of being around you is a lucky b*tch."

I think more of us need to empower one another.

Yes, to realize an "empowered" us is now who we could become, but who we already are!
Posted By: KristinG Re: Confused and Lost II - 11/14/19 07:18 PM
Haha CW "Adventurer" works great in your sitch as I know how much you love a good adventure!
Posted By: may22 Re: Confused and Lost II - 11/15/19 07:05 PM
Hi Kristin,

Great to hear you are doing so well... you ARE amazing and doing incredibly difficult work on yourself. I think it is terrific that you're thinking more about how your actions are for YOU and not to influence her thoughts or feelings.

I definitely feel like this middle ground situation is especially difficult to navigate (and on these boards, where it feels like the LRT and going NC is the primary means of success)-- it isn't like she's an angry stranger asking for a D, but is clearly extremely conflicted and still very much connected to you. I'm sure it is true that going NC would make her miss you, and maybe that is the only way for her to truly understand what it would mean to lose you. On the other hand, if you aren't in a place where you can do that and feel OK about it with yourself, then maybe it isn't the right move at this time.
Posted By: KristinG Re: Confused and Lost II - 11/15/19 11:45 PM
Yeah May - that's the thing. She's not acting like an angry stranger asking for a D. Maybe all WS do this at some point. Lately I've been struggling with deciphering whether she is just keeping me as a solid plan B, or whether her heart is fractured and she doesn't know how to rebuild. I know I'm not in a place to go NC or LRT. I do think I would be there if she were acting like a !@(#*&. Anyway, because I have no answers to this internal battle, I am focusing on what I DO know. And that is that my choices are my own, I control my own happiness, and I am extremely blessed to have everything in my life.

In other news. I am getting a hotel in the big city this weekend and visiting with my best friend that I haven't seen in 2 years! I live in a more rural setting about an hour away and she lives in another state. She knows everything about my sitch and is determined for me to get out there and get my "groove" back. I'm nervous and excited. I told her I'm definitely not ready or looking for anything with anyone else - but it would be super nice to be hit on (it feels like it's been forever)!!! Wish me luck. Also, wish me a sound mind so I don't do anything stupid that I know I would regret later! Eeek!
Posted By: may22 Re: Confused and Lost II - 11/16/19 12:28 AM

Originally Posted by KristinG
I am getting a hotel in the big city this weekend and visiting with my best friend that I haven't seen in 2 years! I live in a more rural setting about an hour away and she lives in another state. She knows everything about my sitch and is determined for me to get out there and get my "groove" back. I'm nervous and excited. I told her I'm definitely not ready or looking for anything with anyone else - but it would be super nice to be hit on (it feels like it's been forever)!!! Wish me luck. Also, wish me a sound mind so I don't do anything stupid that I know I would regret later! Eeek!

Yay Kristin, that is AWESOME!! I'm so excited for you-- sounds like exactly what you need. Have fun!! smile

Originally Posted by KristinG
Lately I've been struggling with deciphering whether she is just keeping me as a solid plan B, or whether her heart is fractured and she doesn't know how to rebuild.

Even though people talk a lot here about cake-eating and Plan Bs, my guess is that most WSs aren't diabolically evil plotters thinking through their sitchs logically and thinking "oh! I'll drop a crumb here to keep my LBS on the hook as plan B!" or whatever. They're totally confused/scared and trying to make sense of their own crazy emotions and both the tug of the fun/new/exciting life/love affair AND the very real solid anchors of the life and love they have built with you. I think this is why they say here to believe nothing of what they say and only half of what they do... not because they're purposefully lying, but because they truly do not know themselves what they want. and anything they perceive to be pressure or pursuit just pushes them away further.

Have you watched Esther Perel's TED talks? If not, I highly recommend. She talks about the tension between love and desire, and has a really interesting perspective.

Anyway... most importantly, have an amazing weekend!! I'll be thinking of you having a blast with your BFF and getting hit on left and right!! smile
Posted By: may22 Re: Confused and Lost II - 11/18/19 06:59 PM
How was your weekend?? smile
Posted By: LovingIt Re: Confused and Lost II - 11/18/19 09:40 PM
Originally Posted by may22

...
Originally Posted by KristinG
Lately I've been struggling with deciphering whether she is just keeping me as a solid plan B, or whether her heart is fractured and she doesn't know how to rebuild.

Even though people talk a lot here about cake-eating and Plan Bs, my guess is that most WSs aren't diabolically evil plotters thinking through their sitchs logically and thinking "oh! I'll drop a crumb here to keep my LBS on the hook as plan B!" or whatever. They're totally confused/scared and trying to make sense of their own crazy emotions and both the tug of the fun/new/exciting life/love affair AND the very real solid anchors of the life and love they have built with you. I think this is why they say here to believe nothing of what they say and only half of what they do... not because they're purposefully lying, but because they truly do not know themselves what they want. and anything they perceive to be pressure or pursuit just pushes them away further.
...


@May -

Do we know if they are confused? I really want to believe you because that will make me less angry. But the lies just seem manipulative, either compulsive or calculated - not sure if those are mutually exclusive.
Posted By: KristinG Re: Confused and Lost II - 11/18/19 10:25 PM
Gosh I'm starting to feel so old. So the big weekend with GAL and the trip out of town was a blast. Well, other than the massive hangover yesterday. Spent some time with the family and then met up with my friend. We were planning on going out on the town and living it up. However, we have come to realize that we are lazy and much prefer sipping wine on a comfy couch and chatting into the early hours of the morning. It was so good to catch up and really just get to spend some time face to face instead of 4 states apart on the phone. Sorry to break it to you May, no getting hit on for me this past weekend - and I was A OK with that. Plus, I am afraid that any attention thrown my way might have escalated into something that I would regret later (a kiss.. get your minds out of the gutter!) . WW has been distant all weekend, but no big surprise there. I'm fairly certain that she and AP are hanging out again. Alas, I am continuing on the journey alone. Hope everyone had a great weekend.

Kristin
Posted By: may22 Re: Confused and Lost II - 11/18/19 10:28 PM
Originally Posted by LovingIt
@May -

Do we know if they are confused? I really want to believe you because that will make me less angry. But the lies just seem manipulative, either compulsive or calculated - not sure if those are mutually exclusive.

Hi LovingIt,
Good question... and I think there ARE cases where the WS is really a narcissist/sociopath at heart and IS a evil, lying manipulator. My good friend's XH is that way... but the truth is we all kind of knew it from the beginning and none of us were surprised when he left her and showed his true colors.

But for the regular, run-of-the-mill WSs-- I have read and listened quite a bit, and even on these boards when you read from the perspective of the WS, I think that many of them really are confused and grappling with how to deal with their feelings without hurting their LBS more than necessary-- I think a lot of the lying stems from that place. We all married these folks and in general WERE madly in love with each other, and we chose them for a reason... I just find it hard to believe that they have all been abducted by aliens and have turned into evil liars. I think it is probably more likely that they're hurting and confused, making TERRIBLE choices, but at the heart of it they're screwed up and trying to figure their way out of this whole mess. Shirley Glass's book Not Just Friends and MWD's Healing From Infidelity both put you in the shoes of the WS to some degree, and I'm now reading Esther Perel's State of Affairs which does the same.

For me, it is easier to be angry and more complicated to deal with still caring about my H and understanding that he's going through something really difficult, perhaps in many ways just as difficult as what I'm going through, and knowing that I bear some (not all) of the burden for getting us to where we are right now. I definitely know he's hurting and confused from our conversations, and that the lying stemmed from not wanting to hurt me, and also not wanting to let go of the possibility of the AP and what she represented (new chance for real happiness, etc etc.) The sense of guilt and being a bad person also adds to this, and then they start needing to believe that they never really loved you or whatever to assuage that guilt...justifying the lies, but also not really dealing with the core of their own issues.

My sense is that Kristin's WS is truly torn and incredibly confused-- otherwise, it would be easy just to walk away and finish what she started with the S and the OW. Just my two cents though, and not sure this rambling made a whole lot of sense-- if so, my apologies!
Posted By: KristinG Re: Confused and Lost II - 11/18/19 10:30 PM
Oh, and also, I thought you all might find it quite hilarious that WW ran into a good friend of ours this past weekend. We haven't seen her in over 6 months and she asked my ww "If she had finally gotten her head out of her butt and fixed things with me". WW replied "I'm trying. She's the best and she deserves the best."

Ww sent this convo between them to me on Friday night. I just responded. "She's right". Comical! Thought you all would enjoy.
Posted By: may22 Re: Confused and Lost II - 11/19/19 07:10 AM
Kristin,

So glad you had an awesome weekend! I agree, sitting on a comfy couch sipping wine and hanging with a good friend is waaaaay better than going out on the town... but yes, I would have gotten some joy out of thinking of you being hit on!! smile

Also, you aren't old wink
Posted By: KristinG Re: Confused and Lost II - 11/20/19 08:02 PM
Awkward but also not awkward interaction today.

WW came by after work last night to bring some deposits and various paperwork for the business. She was being more cuddly and needy than usual and told me she thought she might be getting a cold. Her actions lately have been far more affectionate (ILY, Good mornings, Good nights, Pet names, etc). I have just been riding steady and not reaching out, not pursing. I will respond in the same level of energy, but as most of you know I have been trying to focus on self care and my own growth. So back to her ailment. I told her last night that I would make a big pot of homemade chicken noodle soup. It's been getting chilly here and it's good soup weather anyways. She said that I didn't have to do anything like that, but that if I did to save her a bowl. I made the soup and when she text me later in the night I told her that I had saved her a mason jar full. She was ecstatic and asked if I would want to come to her work and have lunch today so she could enjoy it. I agreed and went today. Now to the awkward sitch. After sitting and chatting for a few during her lunch, she went to give me a hug goodbye and quite awkwardly tried to kiss me. The jacket I was wearing completely blocked her lips and she had to back up, remove my jacket from my face, and attempt again. I died laughing while I was driving away. It was an awkward kiss and I'm definitely not reading anything into it - but perhaps her heart is feeling the distance. Happy Humpday.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Confused and Lost II - 11/20/19 08:20 PM
How much do you know about the distance/ pursuit cycle? If you don't know about it, Google it. You're distancing, she's pursuing. The worst thing you can do right now is to start pursuing her. Don't make her soup, don't hug her, don't let her kiss you. I know it seems counter-intuitive but for now she's just trying to keep you on the hook as Plan B. She will never learn to miss you if you keep letting her engage you like this. You need to go dark on her. She still has a long journey ahead before she might hit bottom and realize what she's losing. She's just playing games for now. You're doing pretty well with DB'ing and it's working, but you're still letting her pull you back in!
Posted By: Caligirl Re: Confused and Lost II - 11/21/19 04:30 AM
So glad to hear that you are really stepping up your GAL . No more hermit !! Not only is this great for you but W is noticing and trying to pull you back in .

Another stander is right she has you on the hook as plan B. It is hard to apply the advise you get but you can do this . Look how far you have come . You are getting a lot of the techniques down and seeing they work .

Most of us here understand the overwhelming feeling to want to help them or see our spouses . It’s hard to pull away but she needs to feel she has lost you in order to really want it back .
Posted By: may22 Re: Confused and Lost II - 11/21/19 09:17 PM
Hi Kristin,

Here's an idea-- can you read back through your threads/journals, review calendars, etc. and really map out your actions and how she has responded? I think for those of us who are reading here, it feels really clear that as you withdraw she leans in, but I know when you're really in the thick of things it can be hard to step back and see the patterns. If I remember correctly in the DB book, she talks about treating it almost like a scientific experiment-- really observe what happens when you do (whatever)-- if positive, keep it up! If not, STOP! Maybe writing it all down will help you to see the progress and how your DBing is WORKING-- and that might give you the necessary willpower to step it up a little more. At least from my perspective just reading here, it feels like every time you've escalated your DB-ing and withdrew a little more, she has responded by becoming more and more interested-- meaning it is working and you should keep it up.

Another analogy I've seen used is the ping-pong game with you on one paddle and the AP on the other, and it will never end until one of you drops the paddle. It feels a little like you've dropped it (or at least put it down), but she's coaxing you back into picking it up. You need to know that the other paddle is GONE before you pick back up or you will be drawn back into the game.

And knowing I'm also struggling with this same balance... wondering if the same advice my coach gave me would work for you-- treating her like a friend/houseguest? That would eliminate the kissing and unless you're making soup for a whole bunch of friends and dropping it off for all of them, no need to do something special for her.
Posted By: KristinG Re: Confused and Lost II - 11/21/19 10:16 PM
AS, Cali, and May:

You are all correct. I don't want to pick up that paddle. I'm a work in progress but I fully intend on keeping up the GAL and distance. It's quite obvious she pursues when I do. The difficult part is that the pursuit feels so good. It has been a long time since she "chased" me and it's hard not to get sucked in. I am planning on staying calm and continuing the self growth.

What do ya'll think about:

1) Continuing GAL, distance, and living my best life (for the WIN)
2) Not rejecting or pushing away small advances in flirting, physical affection, etc., but rather, being coy, confident, and elusive. Essentially playing hard to get.
3) If it gets to the point that she decides to ask me out on a date, I only accept if there are no other players in the game.

Part of me feels like this game plan is a win-win for me. I still want to get to a point similar to Bluwave where I know without a shadow of a doubt that I would be just fine without her. I'm making progress, but it's a long journey still to come I'm sure. As always, thank you guys for listening and being such a great sounding board.

Kristin
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Confused and Lost II - 11/21/19 10:26 PM


When my daughter was young, I would play this game. I would try to hold on to her and she would pull away. I would start chasing her and she would run away.

I also played another game. She would come over looking for a hug, and I would push her away. What do you think she did? She tried harder to get me to hug her.


This dynamic plays over and and in relationships. Have fun playing the game.
Posted By: KristinG Re: Confused and Lost II - 11/21/19 11:07 PM
R2C,

I think you are mistaking the meaning behind my last post. I don't want to play games. I just want to be authentic and live my life. I want to be kind to the people I love and grow intellectually. While I know that I should probably just walk away, I still want to stand for my marriage. These are things I want. What I NEED is to remove my focus from ww. In order to accomplish this goal and yet still leave the door open to Recon, I was laying out a "game plan" in the above post.

I just wanted to clarify.

Kristin
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Confused and Lost II - 11/21/19 11:29 PM
Originally Posted by KristinG
I don't want to play games.
I think you are attracted to someone that does.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Confused and Lost II - 11/22/19 05:21 PM
Originally Posted by KristinG

1) Continuing GAL, distance, and living my best life (for the WIN)
2) Not rejecting or pushing away small advances in flirting, physical affection, etc., but rather, being coy, confident, and elusive. Essentially playing hard to get.
3) If it gets to the point that she decides to ask me out on a date, I only accept if there are no other players in the game.


Kristin,

1 Sounds great!
2 I would not suggest going through the whole mating ritual thing with her right now. She needs to think you've moved on before she will begin to miss you. When you play HER games, which is what you've been doing, then you just lock yourself in as Plan B. Plan B NEVER gets elevated to Plan A. If she loses OW then you will continue to be Plan B while she looks for OW2 or 3 or 4.
3 No dates for now. Detach! She shouldn't even be on your radar for a while.
Posted By: KristinG Re: Confused and Lost II - 11/22/19 07:01 PM
R2C and AS,

You guys are both right. It S*CKS because I know what you say is true in my heart but it's so hard to give up hope and drop the rope. I feel ashamed that I am so weak to her pursuits. I know in my gut she is still seeing and sleeping with AP and has done so off and on for almost a year. 99% of the human race would tell me to leave her sorry self behind, but it's my own internal conflict because my dumb heart still loves her.

I struggle with nagging, internal questions. Could she fall back in love with me if I remain a safe, stable place with no judgements? Would she choose to end her affair relationship if she has enjoyable experiences with me? Would she choose to end it if she feels attraction to me? Would going NC solidify her affair relationship and form it into a committed relationship? Would pulling away more give her more freedom to cement her affair relationship? Could I even get past all of this betrayal? We don't have kids, why am I still sticking around?

These and more constantly play on a loop in my head. I am getting better at focusing on myself and accepting that I can only control my choices. Today has been a bad emotional day. They are not as frequent as they once were but I still get them and I still want them to end. Days like today make me want to contemplate the big D.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Confused and Lost II - 11/22/19 07:36 PM
I do things in my current relationship that go completely against what "I feel" should work. I do it because "I know" it works. I know it works because in the past I went against my "better judgment" tried something I was uncomfortable doing, and responses were more positive than doing things I think would work but were not actually working.

I faced my fear. Guess what? things got better.

Posted By: LovingIt Re: Confused and Lost II - 11/22/19 09:10 PM
Originally Posted by KristinG

...
I struggle with nagging, internal questions. Could she fall back in love with me if I remain a safe, stable place with no judgements? Would she choose to end her affair relationship if she has enjoyable experiences with me? Would she choose to end it if she feels attraction to me? Would going NC solidify her affair relationship and form it into a committed relationship? Would pulling away more give her more freedom to cement her affair relationship? Could I even get past all of this betrayal? We don't have kids, why am I still sticking around?
...


I have the same awful thoughts that my WW and OM could solidify their relationship, and somehow my WW becomes the perfect spouse to someone else. I attribute it to FOMO (fear of missing out)... honestly, how likely is that without doing real personal growth on themselves that two cheaters become good partners.

I know that pursuing did not work, and I lost my self-respect and self-confidence.

I do not know that not pursuing (NC, GAL) will work for sure, but I am gaining back my self-respect and self-confidence.

There's such a thing as forbidden fruit theory with affairs. Once they are addicted, the more you try to stop them, the more they want it. At this point, aside from them being happily ever after, what else worse can happen?
Posted By: unchien Re: Confused and Lost II - 11/22/19 10:03 PM
Originally Posted by KristinG
I am getting better at focusing on myself and accepting that I can only control my choices. Today has been a bad emotional day. They are not as frequent as they once were but I still get them and I still want them to end. Days like today make me want to contemplate the big D.

KG -

One thing I tell myself during the rough times is that emotions are neither bad nor good. They just are.

And all emotions are equally valid. Joy, boredom, anger, love, resentment. No judgment.

The hard part is deciding when to make a decision based on an emotion. There are times when it is obvious that patience is best, when the emotions are stirring like a tornado. Bad days are like this. I'm sorry you are going through it today.

However, at some point, in order to enjoy the full human experience, that includes accepting emotions and accepting that our emotions do guide our decisions (unless you want to go full Zen). Sometimes I feel exhausted from trying to rein in my emotions.

I struggle with this all the time and I imagine almost everyone here does as well. We get that hopeless feeling that our WAS's are forever lost, that we are dummies for sticking around. We start to question our emotions themselves. If I choose to stay, am I invalidating my own self-worth? If I choose to leave, am I reacting off a temporary emotion and doing something I will later regret?

I'm rambling. It's a work in progress for me, too, but I strongly believe the more I get tuned into my emotions, the more I will just "know" what to do when the time comes. Because I'll know "This really strong emotion I'm feeling [censored], but it will subside in a day or two" vs. "This emotion here has been here awhile, and I identify strongly with it, and it is telling me something."

Originally Posted by KristinG
I struggle with nagging, internal questions. Could she fall back in love with me if I remain a safe, stable place with no judgements? Would she choose to end her affair relationship if she has enjoyable experiences with me? Would she choose to end it if she feels attraction to me? Would going NC solidify her affair relationship and form it into a committed relationship? Would pulling away more give her more freedom to cement her affair relationship? Could I even get past all of this betrayal? We don't have kids, why am I still sticking around?

You can't control her. You also can't figure her out. The more you focus on her, the more you will feel frustrated, and the more you will feel out of control of your own life. Keep focusing on yourself, I know it seems hard but you will get better at it with time.
Posted By: Caligirl Re: Confused and Lost II - 11/22/19 10:03 PM
Would going NC cement her and AP ? Maybe so but cement crumbles

She has been sleeping with AP for a year . Your safe and stable is her cushion not her reason for R.

Would you really be able to get over everything knowing she came back because you were stable ? What if you became unstable ? She gets to have another AP .

We all have bad days . Some can be worse than others . You are doing great and growing . Work on being a bit tougher .

Strong and stable for you not her .
Posted By: may22 Re: Confused and Lost II - 11/22/19 10:40 PM
not much to add, but Kristin, just wanted to send good vibes and hugs your way. You are strong and amazing and doing the best you can, better every day. Keep it up and we are all here for YOU!
Posted By: KristinG Re: Confused and Lost II - 11/26/19 05:06 PM
Hey guys! Thought I would give a quick update. I took a few days off from the forums to clear my head and stop spinning. Friday was a bad day - thank you all so much for your words of encouragement and advice. WW could tell that I was having a hard day and knew it was about our sitch. I went off the radar and just spent some time with some self care that night. The rest of the weekend my emotions were much more balanced. I got a lot accomplished with work and it always feels good to get caught up.

Originally Posted by LovingIt

There's such a thing as forbidden fruit theory with affairs. Once they are addicted, the more you try to stop them, the more they want it. At this point, aside from them being happily ever after, what else worse can happen?


THIS! I wish there was more information out there for people to realize that it's not just an "oops" moment in many of the cases with affairs. The wayward is 100% addicted and that will never change unless the OW/OM ends it, or until they hit rock bottom.

R2C - I am facing those fears daily my friend. Thank you for being a strong voice in keeping me grounded. I'm still not doing full NC, but I am protecting myself and evolving. Maybe I'll wake up one day and I'll be ready and know that I can follow through.

U,

You are absolutely right. Friday I couldn't stop the obsessive thoughts and focus on her. I (finally) know that reacting off of those emotions and making rash decisions aren't the way to push through them. Previously, with emotions that intense I would have pushed her away only to allow her back in. I kept to myself and persevered. I didn't let them get the best of me and I didn't make a decision only to make myself look weak. Just like with R2C, if those emotions persist long enough I'm sure that my choices will reflect a need to go full NC.

Cali & May,

I feel like you two gals are true gems! It's been such a blessing to have both of your incites and amazing encouragement throughout everything. I'll catch up with both of ya'll on your threads!

Happy Turkey Week! I'm super thankful to have found this group.

KG
Posted By: KristinG Re: Confused and Lost II - 12/02/19 07:32 PM
How is everyone holding up after the holiday weekend?! I hope all is well. This weekend was pretty enjoyable. I played a TON of video games and had some good R&R. I even slept in past 9 am which hasn't happened in months. Saturday, ww and I had a friendsgiving party we agreed to attend that evening. She decided that she was too exhausted from work and the week's festivities to go. My gut tells me that she had made other plans with AP. Either way, I didn't let it deter me from enjoying a great dinner and laughing my butt off with good friends. Needless to say, I went to the party and had an absolute blast. I even met up with a good friend at a bar to do some karaoke later that night. It is still really awkward and difficult to know how to respond when friends ask how "we" are doing. "Are ya'll back together?" "Are you getting a divorce?" etc.. I have resigned to simply stating that we are not together, we're working on ourselves as individuals, and that I don't want a divorce.

It was an interesting time at the karaoke bar. I only had 2 drinks, but yours truly didn't spend a dime (wink wink).
And no, I didn't even so much as flirt - my wife is still the only person I see - but the attention still felt great. Sunday I had a lazy day with my pups and watched a couple of movies. I've started trying to take a few moments of meditation when I feel any type of strong emotion. I know that Unchien, IronWill, and a few others that have had success using it. So far it really helps to calm and re-center my thoughts. Work has been crazy thus far today but I'll try to catch up on everyone as time allows.

Happy Monday!

KG
Posted By: may22 Re: Confused and Lost II - 12/03/19 08:36 AM
Yay!!! Kristin, you made my day. smile I'm sitting on my couch with a beer and my laptop grinning like a fool thinking about you having a blast, belting out karaoke and getting all your drinks paid for. (My H is like WHAT are you smiling at??) You go, girl!!

Love that you had a great weekend, slept in, had fun, meditated, and have mastered the simple response to friends about what is going on with you two. Know that they are asking from a place of love and support even when it feels awkward and intrusive.

Super glad to see you having fun and reconnecting with your friends, dogs and yourself! smile
Posted By: BluWave Re: Confused and Lost II - 12/09/19 01:46 AM
Hi Kristin,

Thanks for posting on my thread. I’m sorry you are here. I know how much it truly svcks. Your sitch is a real bummer, but not a unique one. The longer we read the forums, the easier it becomes to spot patterns and repeating themes. It’s just different people involved. I live in a very diverse area and have several LGBTQ friends, and I think the dynamics of infidelity are quite similar in all types of relationships. I say that because I don't like to gender stereotype, but there are some differences. I do notice that two women in a romantic R tend to develop intense emotional connections faster than other types of Rs. Also I think that those same Rs can be more of a challenge to end or walk away from. I’m not sure how much that matters, but it sounds like your WW is deeply connected to her OW, and that most likely is separate from her feelings for you. Her feelings for you both are not inversely proportional.

I am sorry to write this next part but I want you to really take this in: there is nothing you can do to change her feelings, break them apart or steal/win her back. I got caught up in those games myself and it simply won't work. I also tried to convince myself that I wasn't doing that and that I was letting go, detaching, etc, but I wasn't. I don't think you are either.

I have read most of this thread, but not your first thread. I’m reading that you and your posters focusing a lot on the intentions of the WS (ie they are simply confused vs being manipulative, they are cake eating vs can't make up their mind, they are a psychotic sociopath vs a lost and loving soul, etc, etc). I would like to challenge all of you on your thinking and say that none of it matters. You are all doing this because the more you can come to understand your WS/WAS, the more sympathy you have for them and therefore the more you can allow their mistreatment of you in the guise that they are somehow still connected. to you. I am sorry but this doesn't work.

You can never know with 100% certainty what they are thinking, wanting, what their "true" intentions are, and ultimately what will happen in the future. It is impossible. Why? 1. Because mind reading never works and 2. They don't actually know themselves. Just like you, theyre constantly in a whirlwind of emotions, confused, and changing. So trying to figure this out only hurts you and it also holds you back from putting your energy into what you can control. You can control how you live your own life without them moving forward. A lot of people try and convince us they are doing that, only to post the next week they are just waiting in the wings for any table scraps. Then they read into said table scraps and attribute meaning to suit their own narrative. Stop doing that.

Kristin, I am going to be hard on you, and I am sorry for that but I want to help you. You sound a little pathetic. Do you feel that way? Is this the woman your W was initially attracted to? She is actively engaged in an ongoing A and breaking your heart and you are just waiting around for any little bit of attention or interest from her. That cannot feel very good. Does it? You see a big part, the only part, of dropping the rope, going dark and letting them be, is NOT TO PLAY GAMES AND WIN THEM BACK, but it is for you. For your own SELF PRESERVATION. Because you value yourself and only give your heart to people that know how to treat you. If you cannot do that, then you only attract people that walk all over you and don't respect you. She will continue to treat you this way until you start treating yourself better and find your own worth. How do you deserve to be treated?

My strong advise is to do a 180 on her. Drop the rope. Go dark. If she wants to text, call, beg, kick scream cry, promise to end it with OW, then fine. She can do whatever she wants, that is her problem. But take a good 3-6 months and take care of yourself, GAL like crazy, and find your own value again. You can simply tell her that you have decided you need time to think and to please give you space. Then you stick to your words. It won't be easy, but your only other alternative is to accept that your W is a cheater, loves OW and will come and go as she pleases. Right now you are teaching her that that is okay with you. If it's not, then you need to make big changes. You can do this.

Blu
Posted By: IronWill Re: Confused and Lost II - 12/09/19 03:10 AM
Hi Kristin -

I've been off the boards for a little while to regroup and rest, but I wanted to step in and offer you a few words of support.

I would suggest you continue to work on detachment. As Blu wisely said above, it is primarily for your protection, first and foremost. It forces you to focus on yourself alone, and remove any awareness of/involvement in whatever drama W is going through. It sounds like W is in emotional turmoil - and i kind of think that you really don't want to have to deal with all of that too, on top of your own rollercoaster of feelings and emotions. It's a lot to take.

Detachment sounds counterintuitive. It is. I've been DBing for almost 10 months now, in a sit that has persisted for 15 months. I have only just started to see some softening, some bits and pieces of awareness that all was not as terrible in my MR as I was told at BD.

This is a slow, crawling, patience-testing endeavor. It takes much much longer than any of us think it will take at the beginning. And there is no guarantee that it will have a positive outcome. That is the other side of detachment - it prepares us all for an outcome that might not be what we want.

Detachment is tricky sometimes. It doesn't mean being cold or rude - it just means letting WAS go. That's what WASes say they want - time and space, distance.

I am glad to hear that meditation is proving useful to you. smile I might not be here today if I had not thrown everything into meditation when I was at my lowest. Going more "Zen" has helped me to see the bigger picture - to step out of my own perspective and see that detached kindness and love will defeat momentary anger and hate, always. It is not always easy and it takes practice, but I am proof that it can calm anxiety and clear one's mind.

Stay strong and calm, Kristin, and keep yourself grounded.

Take care smile
Posted By: KristinG Re: Confused and Lost II - 12/09/19 10:59 PM
Blu,

Thank you for posting your thoughts. I can tell you really spent some time thinking about what you wrote. To answer your question, yes, I do feel pathetic. Your advice is spot on. AS & R2C (with others) have been adamant that I go dark as well. I have tried several times to do just that and I feel pathetic every time I fail so I am working towards being able to follow through the next time I say that I need space. It seems like many on here have WS's that are cruel and have rewritten history and mine is quite the opposite. It's so hard when WS's say everything that we want to hear. "When we get a house and are back together..." "When I'm a stay-at-home wife again and we're back together.." ETC...

I'm working to prepare myself for dropping the rope. I finally got an appointment with the only quality IC group in my area. I live in a rural setting and have tried a couple of counselors that gave no homework or feedback - talking to a wall would have been more productive. The waiting list for the practice was over 4 months long and I'm finally approaching my appointment in mid January. My personal goal is to get through the holidays and then, with the help of friends here and IC, move forward with going dark.

Right now it is a rollercoaster I want to exit. I am out of barf bags and it's not a fun ride. Lately, I am tired of this pretend relationship in which we talk all the time, see each other often, but aren't "together". It leaves me feeling unattractive and rejected. I want a commitment, not a friend. It scares me because I don't even know if I could move through all of this pain even if she wanted to come back. I don't believe she will ever be strong enough to leave OW and will insist upon a friendship and for obvious reasons I would not be comfortable with that. I think she has convinced herself that since "we're not together", she isn't cheating and/or isn't betraying anything. I also hate that all of her house and personal stuff has stickers and decorations from the OW's place of business (gag).

I will read and re-read your post Blu. Thank you for offering such thoughtful advice and cutting straight to the heart of it.



IW,

I hope you are rejuvenated and have had a smooth return! Thanks for stopping by on my thread and I will definitely catch up on yours. And yes, the meditation is great when anything feels overwhelming. It's amazing how a few deep breaths and focusing on blocking everything swirling in your mind can help to re-center your thoughts.

KG
Posted By: unchien Re: Confused and Lost II - 12/09/19 11:24 PM
Kristin ~

Blu nailed it.

Originally Posted by BluWave
I would like to challenge all of you on your thinking and say that none of it matters. You are all doing this because the more you can come to understand your WS/WAS, the more sympathy you have for them and therefore the more you can allow their mistreatment of you in the guise that they are somehow still connected. to you. I am sorry but this doesn't work.

Now, work on removing mind-reading her from your life. Carve out that headspace for YOU and what you want. You will feel a whole lot better when you aren't wasting precious emotional energy trying to figure her out, and instead focus that energy on you. It may feel like a huge burden is lifted (or at least you can throw out the barf bags!)
Posted By: BluWave Re: Confused and Lost II - 12/10/19 12:41 AM
I know calling you pathetic is cruel. I write that because I know from experience that it feels pathetic to remain so attached to someone that is walking all over you. It degrades your last shred of self worth. What I am trying to get you to understand is that this is not her doing. It is yours. People only treat us the way we allow them to. And this most likely started before her A began.

It doesn't matter what her reasons are, if she is kind to you, or if she talks about the future as if you two are together. None of that matters. You, like all of us, are just looking for hope. Because you don't want to let go. You can only accept the facts and that is that you are not together and she is with someone else. That is it. You have got to decide that any crumbs or table scraps that she throws you is not good enough. You want a committed W that respects you and treats you as such and that is it.

I think that is great that you have a good IC in the near future. But please do not fool yourself into thinking that letting go of your W will be any easier with IC than it is now. Please do not put this off any longer. With every passing day that you hope for her return, look for signs and accept her stringing you along, you erode your sense of self more and more. You are withering away right now. You don't have to live this way. You can choose right now in this moment that you are worth more than being crapped on, lied too, and saved as a plan B. She might say or act as if she loves you, but really, she is playing you. You are the fool in this by accepting it, not her.

You don't have to make this into some drama and make a grand proclamation. In fact it is better if you don't and do so with actions. You can gently tell her that you have been doing a lot of thinking and you need to make some changes in your life and to please give you some space. Then you focus 100% on you. SHUT HER OUT, BECAUSE SHE IS TOXIC FOR YOU. This is not a game and not to win her back. What are you waiting for?

Then you GAL GAL GAL. SELF CARE and surround yourself with positive people that support you. It really is the only way to learn to value you yourself again. Then, and only over time, you will attract people that value you the same way. That may or may not be her. By then, it won't matter anymore.

Post here your personal successes every day. Let us help celebrate you. This is not about her anymore.

Blu
Posted By: may22 Re: Confused and Lost II - 12/10/19 03:41 AM
Hi Kristin,

Sending hugs. Our spouses S*CK. And, it sounds like actually yours has what mine wants... maybe thinking of it that way is a different perspective?
I'll send you back some things you (and others) have sent to me that have helped:
- you don't deserve this, you deserve a full R with a committed W
- you are the the prize
- you can only control yourself, you can't control her... and since you didn't break her, you can't fix her.

I'm thinking of you and am here for you. Same thing you told me on my thread... post here if you need help.
Posted By: KristinG Re: Confused and Lost II - 12/10/19 11:07 PM
Haha OMG May, you're so right! Your H wants the happy fantasy friendship in which he gets to live next door, come and go as he pleases, have you as a bestie and his OW as his girl. It's an interesting perspective to think about. I'll catch up with you on yours but good job DBing like a boss lady!

Blu,

I know you have heard this from many posters, but you have a way of giving advice and wisdom that cuts straight to the heart of the matter. I'm grateful. I am so much stronger than when I first started posting here and I have much more self worth as a result. Yes, at times, I definitely FEEL pathetic. But those are feelings and aren't my truth. I know what I have to offer the world and I'm proud of what I'm doing in life. You're 100% right that I should shut her out. You're also correct in calling many of us out for not really detaching and letting go. I know that I definitely haven't been truly detaching. It's a work in progress.

In other news, ww called this afternoon and mentioned that she isn't going to join me for our family Christmas as originally planned. She said that she is ashamed to be around my mom and family as they know about our sitch. She said she wants to go back to seeing them when we are back together and that she didn't feel right going in for Christmas and receiving gifts. That she wants to earn back the right to join our family and work on getting to that point. All of this just to share with ya'll a little victory - I just said "Ok smile If that's what you feel you need to do I can understand."

Cheers!
KG
Posted By: KristinG Re: Confused and Lost II - 12/16/19 03:59 PM
Happy Monday fellow DBers. Unfortunately, I came down with the flu last week and have been MIA. Finally feeling a bit better (thank heavens). Not much to update on my end - still failing at detachment but overall have been in good spirits and have made plans for two nights this week for dinner with friends. I'll catch up on everyone's threads soon.
Posted By: ovrrnbw Re: Confused and Lost II - 12/16/19 04:33 PM
Originally Posted by KristinG
Happy Monday fellow DBers. Unfortunately, I came down with the flu last week and have been MIA. Finally feeling a bit better (thank heavens). Not much to update on my end - still failing at detachment but overall have been in good spirits and have made plans for two nights this week for dinner with friends. I'll catch up on everyone's threads soon.


Haha I had to lol. But here's the catch, you can't fail if you aren't trying. You'll get there. I think you don't notice your progress because you're in the trenches. You're progressing, so keep going! Hope you're feeling better soon.
Posted By: KristinG Re: Confused and Lost II - 12/19/19 12:00 AM
Ovr,

Man I love this shiz!
Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
But here's the catch, you can't fail if you aren't trying. .


Thanks for the words of encouragement and the lols! I have spent a few days GALing like a madwoman. I had a good friend tell me that "maybe ww and I were just meant to be friends in the end". She told me this several months ago and at the time I was hurt and angry at the statement. It has stuck with me, and lately, I have pondered the same. Don't get me wrong, I am obviously still in love with her and attached and all of that super fun stuff. BUT, the thought has crossed my mind that I don't know if I / we could ever move past all of the trauma. Furthermore, would I want to try again with someone that could so easily walk away? These musings don't hurt as much to think about anymore and I'm planning to spend some time in self reflection letting them marinate.
Posted By: unchien Re: Confused and Lost II - 12/19/19 12:40 AM
Originally Posted by KristinG
Don't get me wrong, I am obviously still in love with her and attached and all of that super fun stuff. BUT, the thought has crossed my mind that I don't know if I / we could ever move past all of the trauma. Furthermore, would I want to try again with someone that could so easily walk away?

I absolutely relate to this

I tell myself that I will keep the door open

BUT

she has to see me as someone of high value
she has to be willing to fight for me
she has to see being me as more valuable than being alone, or being with somebody else

(stolen from a post in May by a wise vet)

In the meantime, keep walking that path. Living with all this ambiguity and uncertainty is not easy.
Posted By: may22 Re: Confused and Lost II - 12/19/19 09:18 PM
Hi Kristin,

Keep up the good work. I think letting those thoughts sit with you is really helpful, even though it isn't pleasant. It starts to move you from thinking what you want is HER into what you want for YOU.

How has the GALing been going? How are your dogs? Are you excited to spend Christmas with your family, surrounded by people that love you?

Hope you're feeling better too!

xo May
Posted By: IronWill Re: Confused and Lost II - 12/20/19 12:25 PM
Originally Posted by KristinG

I have spent a few days GALing like a madwoman.

This is really good. Keep doing this, Kristin - very important.

Originally Posted by KristinG

I had a good friend tell me that "maybe ww and I were just meant to be friends in the end". She told me this several months ago and at the time I was hurt and angry at the statement. It has stuck with me, and lately, I have pondered the same.

I caution everyone the same when it comes to friends, even best friends. They try to empathize with your situation and are trying to make you feel better - which is awesome. But it is impossible for anyone to predict what will happen in the future, and it is not possible for anyone other than you to see from your perspective. Only you know your situation completely.

I have had several esoteric and metaphysical discussions with Unchien about meditation and thoughts during our time here at DB. You may have read a few of them. Basically the idea is that a "thought" is just that - a thought. It doesn't predetermine anything, and it doesn't mean anything. It only starts to mean something if you choose to believe it is true - and it is at that point it becomes a choice, for you to decide to go in the direction the thought leads you, or not.

I'm not the best at explaining it - I'm still learning this very different way of viewing things myself. There's a book called "The Power of Now" by Eckhart Tolle. Eye opening read - a great companion read to DB and DR. Check it out if you get the chance - it has helped me tons.

Quote
Don't get me wrong, I am obviously still in love with her and attached and all of that super fun stuff. BUT, the thought has crossed my mind that I don't know if I / we could ever move past all of the trauma. Furthermore, would I want to try again with someone that could so easily walk away? These musings don't hurt as much to think about anymore and I'm planning to spend some time in self reflection letting them marinate.


It is good to think about things critically. I think it's important not to let these thoughts consume you, though.

In the future, if WW ends it with OP, is truly remorseful for what she has done, commits to NC with OP, and commits solely to you and only you, then and only then, those are discussions that can be had - if you choose to have a new R.

In the meantime, focus on you and what you want. smile

Like Steve85 told me the other day - I'm paraphrasing here - Any house can be rebuilt if there's a strong enough foundation.

Take care Kristin - stay strong smile
Posted By: Yail Re: Confused and Lost II - 12/22/19 04:33 AM
Hi KG, I just read through your thread a lightning speed.

So here are my thoughts, queer to queer. You may hate me. I want you to be on the "other side" of this pain and look in the mirror and feel like a bad@$$ lezzie who is loving her life, and did the HARD WORK to get there. Right now I feel like you are picking and choosing the path to your healing.

1) Blu. Everything BluWave said is exactly right. Read and reread what she has written to you multiple times. It is the most helpful advice if you try your hardest to really hear her. Do not skim these posts.

2) About being "the Lighthouse". Here's the thing - a Lighthouse is for a ship looking to come home. Your W has zero intention of coming home. Not even one iota. She says the words but has not made one single authentic step in the last year. She is not coming back in the near future.

I understand your desire to be the lighthouse and you can! But you seem to think that's by making things easy for W to come home. No. Your goal isn't to "pave the way home", it's to not put any more [censored] in the road.

No need to be cruel or mean. But you can and should start ignoring W and going dim (you don't have to be NC, but you do need to stop hanging out and talking and using pet names and saying ILY. Seriously, stop that. And stop talking about your relationship. You don't have one.).

What does it mean to add stuff to the road? Well, for example, going out and hooking up with someone else out of spite would be adding stuff to the road. But you taking a MAJOR step back is not going to stop her if she had any interest in returning. All you need to be is cordial.

3) Ahhh, lezzie culture. You mentioned in a November post about not being her friend during this. I know you're a bit younger than me, and I tend to be more familiar with an older lesbian crowd, so the dynamics are a tad different and changing. BUT.

Lesbians are friends with their exes. It's a joked about dynamic. We all know that in a party of lesbians most have some weird degree of separation with sleeping with one another. And sometimes it's legit, but honestly I think in some ways this is the most BS part of our culture.

For anyone reading not familiar with queer culture: To be fair,, this dynamic was built out of protection. For folks who had lost so much family due to being themselves, a new family of similar people was born. Hence the incredibly popular idea that lesbians are all friends after breaking up.

So it is my advice to NOT PLAY in to this storyline.

4) I'd like to know more about your caretaker dynamic with W. She seems to be fulfilled in part by the fact that she is caretaker for OP. I am not suggesting you weaken yourself to change your dynamic with W. But I have some thoughts and I'd like to hear more about how you two would have interacted when your R was on solid ground.
Posted By: BluWave Re: Confused and Lost II - 12/22/19 06:02 PM
Hi Kristin,

How are you feeling? The flu has been awful this year. I hope you are recovered. It can be hard to GAL when you are feeling crummy. I have been thinking maybe I should replace saying GAL with the term "self care," because it feels more encompassing. GAL sort of suggests we need to go out, do an activity and spend money or energy. This BD stuff can be quite taxing and sometimes we don't have much to spend. "Self care" can include GAL, but it can also include other mediums that we might need to heal and ultimately detach. For me that can be a long walk, a bath, cooking a new recipe, starting a new series or book, or simply throwing a ball with my kids.

I find it interesting that she tells you she is uncomfortable around your family and says "when we are back together." It reads to me as if she is keeping you as plan B. Shame on her. That is not very thoughtful of your feelings. Because if she actually planned on being with you, she would be with you now. Perhaps that is just more delusional wayward speak! I recall my H saying some very dumb things like this when he was in his fog too. Like May's WH, my H thought we could be friends and still have family time, and then he could go off to OW. I had to ax that family time right off because I felt like I was being used.

I was writing to May yesterday and thinking about the differences in dealing with a wayward spouse when there are kids involved vs when there are not. I think the stakes are higher and can be more complicated when there are kids. Both parents naturally want to do right by the kids. It also logistically is much harder to drop the rope or go dark. because you have to share custody and discuss things frequently. On the flip side, when there are not kids involved, it is also could be easier for them to move right along without us and not feel the loss as much.

I am glad you and Yail have linked up.

I hope the holidays are treating you well.

Blu
Posted By: Traveler Re: Confused and Lost II - 12/22/19 07:20 PM
Originally Posted by KristinG
I had a good friend tell me that "maybe ww and I were just meant to be friends in the end". She told me this several months ago and at the time I was hurt and angry at the statement. It has stuck with me, and lately, I have pondered the same. Don't get me wrong, I am obviously still in love with her and attached and all of that super fun stuff. BUT, the thought has crossed my mind that I don't know if I / we could ever move past all of the trauma. Furthermore, would I want to try again with someone that could so easily walk away?

It sounds like the advice you gave me applies almost equally to you, "But DUDEtte! She has been treating you like utter garbage. You're awesome, and bold, and creative! Your heart is longing for a committed, stable, and exciting relationship. She is literally screaming at you that she doesn't want any of those things."

Your situation is more complicated since you've been together 7 years. I award you +3 awesomeness points for trying so hard to right the ship despite her active affair! You're right, piecing/reconciling is not easy. It felt like starting anew--except there was tons of baggage, and I was my new self (validating instead of yelling or walking away, organized home, self compassion), and she was her old self (anger, yelling, hanging up).

In retrospect, I don't think I'll try to reconcile again unless the other party is STRONGLY pushing for it (Gee, what DB suggests!) instead of "Sorta" pushing for it.. or there are kiddos involved. It's funny. Each DB lesson is well-written here, and yet they only "click" when personal experience reinforces them, lol!

Hugs and happy holidays to you, Kristy.
Posted By: KristinG Re: Confused and Lost II - 12/23/19 05:41 PM
Friends, seriously thank you so much for all your responses. I want to get back to each of you.

Originally Posted by IronWill

Basically the idea is that a "thought" is just that - a thought. It doesn't predetermine anything, and it doesn't mean anything. It only starts to mean something if you choose to believe it is true - and it is at that point it becomes a choice, for you to decide to go in the direction the thought leads you, or not.


So well put IW. I watched a YouTube short once about this concept. It was essentially a cartoon showing this dynamic as a bicycle. Your emotions and thoughts are the wheels, always in motion. Choice is the handlebar, directing which direction you travel. This in turn creates new emotions, thoughts, and thus choice. It is up to us to shape our own destination as to where it will lead.

Originally Posted by Yail


I understand your desire to be the lighthouse and you can! But you seem to think that's by making things easy for W to come home. No. Your goal isn't to "pave the way home", it's to not put any more [censored] in the road.



I hadn't thought about it in those exact terms, thanks! To answer some of your questions, I consider myself a lesbian. I am fine with queer as well. You will most likely laugh at this because I jokingly refer to myself as a chapstick lesbian. I am definitely more femme, but I don't do heels and lipstick. I always dress nicely, always wear makeup, and also have a little hipster/rocker vibe going. I think we're around the same age, but yes, I'm a little younger. It is definitely a cultural thing to remain friends post relationship. It doesn't bother me, but it is hard to imagine a future with our mutual queer friends in which we are just meant to be fine with it all. Too much pain ATM.

Originally Posted by Yail

4) I'd like to know more about your caretaker dynamic with W. She seems to be fulfilled in part by the fact that she is caretaker for OP. I am not suggesting you weaken yourself to change your dynamic with W. But I have some thoughts and I'd like to hear more about how you two would have interacted when your R was on solid ground.


This is one area that I need improvement. It is one of my top priorities when I start IC. I have realized a trend in past relationships and current, that I am far too nurturing and caring. I don't think I was this way when our R was on solid ground. WW graduated college and became depressed because of a lack of career opportunities. When I really think about past experiences and my own shortcomings I noticed that whenever faced with R hardship, I kick into fix-it or momma bear mode and try to make my partner happy. This includes walking on egg-shells, way too much pampering and doting, and generally ignoring my own needs and feelings.

I completely agree that she is getting fulfillment from being caretaker for OP. She has even told me that it feels good for her to feel needed. It [censored]. It's all I have wanted from her since our dynamic shifted. Prior to graduation, she was an amazing caretaker and stay at home student. I worked, she cooked, cleaned, and went to school. I miss our teamwork and mutual effort. I would love to hear your thoughts.

Blu,

I'm finding more ways for "self care" everyday. Last night, I got greasy takeout, put fresh sheets on the bed, and watched a movie. I also spent way too much on a cordless vacuum I have been wanting for a few months. Adulting for the win! I am feeling much better and thanks for asking - the flu [censored]. I have been reading and re-reading your advice on both mine and May's page. I will be ruminating on letting go and moving forward with my life. I have some ideas and will be posting soon for advice on wording and prep work.

CW,

Glad you're still standing strong! Thanks for a few laughs on a Monday morning!



KG
Posted By: KristinG Re: Confused and Lost II - 12/27/19 04:40 PM
I hope everyone had a great Christmas. I spent mine with ww and her family. It was enjoyable, but also bittersweet knowing that this could be the last one. It felt a bit as though we were only together out of obligation and not any real sense of want. Lately, I am longing for intimacy. It is getting harder spending time with her and feeling like more of a friendship. She is more attentive to her phone than a nuke detonating right in her living room. I felt very alone despite spending 24 hours together. Just to fill you all in, I am preparing myself to leave her in January. It has become quite clear that it is unhealthy for me to continue in this toxic environment. I keep telling myself that we will never have a healthy relationship unless she really does some soul searching and growing. And that growth cannot and will not happen with me firmly planted as plan B. It is going to be the hardest thing I will ever do, and I have really been waiting until I know that I can and will stand by my request for space (with support from friends and everyone here). It only makes me feel weak and broken when I go dim or dark only to recant my position in a few days at her pursuit. This time, I need to continue the journey of healing for myself. I need to evaluate whether I want a future R with her.

KG
Posted By: may22 Re: Confused and Lost II - 12/27/19 08:33 PM
Hi Kristin,

I feel you in so many ways and I'm preparing myself for H to move out in some degree in January too. I'm here for you.

Someone-- maybe CW?-- posted recently about the silver lining being that we get to have the experience of falling in love again, and maybe that is something that can help keep you going. There are a lot of positive things on the other side of this valley, and we just have to get through and some distance from the daily hurt to get clarity on what we really need for ourselves.

We're about to start a whole new decade. Let's do it right.

May
Posted By: Yail Re: Confused and Lost II - 12/27/19 09:25 PM
KG, I think this is a good decision. And even when making it, I get the sense part of you thinks she'll follow you shortly after. I say this because a small part of me felt the same way, despite my words to the contrary.

The good thing about this process is you don't have to let go all at once. You can do it in stages. When it gets to be difficult just remind yourself that no one can read the future. You don't have to let go of hope for the future if you don't want to, but you do have to let go of the now. And by "now" start by thinking of that as a 2 year time period. Anything less than that is not enough. You will be making choices for KG and ONLY KG for 2 years, with zero input from WW. Want to quit your job and start a new one? Great! You don't have to check in with WW. Want to go on a solo vacation and spend a bit over budget? YAY!

This mentality is something that helped me tremendously. I still don't know what future, if any, my XW and I may have. Perhaps we reconnect in 10 years. Perhaps in 5 she is meant to become my friend. But not now. Right now I'm only 1 year after she said she wanted to get a D, and that's still a very short period of time. So for now the answer is still "no". It's too fresh, it's too raw, and she is not what is good for me now. Of course, I don't have her banging down the door either looking for any contact, which makes it easier.

There's something to be said for discovering how to get your groove back. It can be thrilling to rediscover yourself, and to see growth. Focus on this. This is why I joke about bathroom dance parties and redoing your make-up.

What will you be saying to WW exactly? You said "a request for space". I feel like you've done that before, and I'm thinking it's up for interpretation and debate. "Space" is vague.

I think you need to tell her exactly what you're looking for, and that may include the words "separation" and/or "divorce". Those are difficult words. I think you need to consider some legal options for protection as well.

What happens if you ask for a separation and WW gets mad (it happens), and vindictive? Every single one of us has been blindsided by something we did not expect from our previously loving spouses. It is best to be realistic and protect yourself. Perhaps a separation order where it states you are not liable for any financial decisions she makes. What if she goes and buys a new car and now you have new debt attached to your name/credit? I urge you to think carefully and not make decisions out of fear, panic, or undue trust.

You need to request back your key to the apartment, and if you share custody of the pups you need an agreed upon schedule in writing with zero surprises allowed.

We just want to identify how she can sneak back into your life and interrupt it, because she is going to try. Cutting off those options now is key to your healing.

I'm sorry Christmas was strange. Do you have fun NYE plans?
Posted By: KristinG Re: Confused and Lost II - 12/27/19 10:32 PM
Yail,

I am dreading it and also looking forward to not feeling so suffocated with the limbo. I, too, have been in this for over a year. We separated soon after she announced her feelings for OW. She moved 20 minutes away and within about a mile of OW. During the initial separation, she was telling me that they had not acted on their feelings and that she was unsure if she wanted OW or our MR. I failed miserably and did all of the things we are taught not to do. Begging, crying, trying to do everything to win her back, etc. She confessed to a PA in January. Throughout the last year, she has been back and forth between the both of us. Never ending contact with either of us, and feeling torn. She moved back in with me and ended contact with OW for about a month in mid summer only to miss OW and move back to a rental house closer to home. She ended any physical relationship we were having at that time. Since the beginning of summer I have been DBing without really knowing what DB is. Trying to give her space, work on myself, and have a PMA regardless of the outcome.

I recap all of this because I am really at a loss as to what to say and how to prepare. I definitely do not want a divorce, and neither does she. We have already been doing the "separation" thing. We still talk everyday and are together more often than not. We still say ILY, cuddle, and occasionally, she will kiss me. And yes, I know, these aren't healthy things to do with someone that is sleeping with someone else. This is why I feel the need for change. Even if it means that we end up divorcing, I cannot and do not have any desire to continue to feel like I'm not enough. I know I'm a catch. Not to toot my own horn, BUT TOOT TOOT MOTHER TRUCKERS!

My thinking is to sit her down and calmly explain that I am done living in an open relationship. Tell her to please respect my need for space and that I have some things I need to think about regarding moving forward for myself.

Then calmly, get up, and leave.

I don't know if she will reach out, although that tends to be her reaction. Very quickly. It terrifies me, because I have been so weak to this in the past. I gave her a letter in May detailing my need for her to end things or not contact me. One week later she did just that ended things with OW and called me in a panic. When I found out they were still sleeping together, I told her I needed space. Two days later and she was back in "Baby, I don't ever want to lose you" mode. It's been a whirl wind of emotions. So my gut says that she most likely will panic and end things to come home, only to waffle in her decision once again. I don't think my heart could take it again. I'm most scared of that reaction and how to respond so I don't get hurt again at that level.

Sorry for the long rant. January is quickly approaching and I don't want to start 2020 with heaviness and depression. KG is getting tired of dealing with the BS!

KG
Posted By: may22 Re: Confused and Lost II - 12/28/19 12:23 AM
Kristin,

Can you block her phone number-- and tell her you're doing so, at least for some period of time? Are there things you can plan for ahead of time to make it more difficult for her to reach you? Could you plan to go see your friend you saw before in the city for a few days to get out of town? It sounds very likely that it will play out as it has in the past, so being as prepared as possible to give yourself the time and space YOU need and not letting her interfere with that seems important.
Posted By: Yail Re: Confused and Lost II - 12/28/19 02:09 AM
Agree with May - this will be a repeat of your past attempts unless you do something different.

What you had before was not a separation, so that's a start. You said you wanted space, but that was not really defined and it was a boundary that was not held. So in that sense, she hears words but does not expect you to follow through. It was you half-heartedly trying to push her away but not really doing so fully.

You say you don't want a Divorce, and I hear that. But you also don't have a marriage. I think you really need to reflect on this piece. I'm not saying you need to file now, but I do think you need to identify what a Separation really is. It means you don't have one another in your life, and you'll be living very differently.

This isn't a separation where you just want space or time - you have to very firmly state with your actions that you do not want her and that any approach will be met with your back turned.

Perhaps this time it is different with your delivery. In the past you've tried talking, giving letters, explaining, sharing your feelings. She is not entitled to those any more - she knows how you feel. You can walk away and feel confident she knows how you feel. Do not think that if you only told her "one more time" anything would change.

Perhaps this time it is fewer words. Simply, "I'm done. Do not reach out.". Really - less is more. And then stand firm to it. No need for anything elaborate, and it may be easier for you if you simply stick to a few words.

I think practicing here or talking about your plan as you lead up to it may make you feel more confident, which is key. Sticking to this is going to be very difficult for you, and we're here to support you in it. But I do think that after several weeks of a new routine you'll start to feel different, and it will set you on a new path. You don't want to keep living this limbo world for the next year with someone who can't take a step towards you.
Posted By: Caligirl Re: Confused and Lost II - 12/28/19 06:08 AM
Kristen

Sorry I haven’t posted . Just catching up on you and mays threads . I give you gals a lot of credit .

Hope you are feeling better .

Just from reading different threads on here . If you are going to drop the rope my input is to go short and to the point .

This is no longer working for me .

I wouldn’t give much more . She knows why .

She’s going to call and call and call . Probably show up . Do not answer (this is the hardest part ) but you can do it . This is a marathon not a sprint . Remember that . The ultimate goal is for you to be happy for you and no one else .
Posted By: unchien Re: Confused and Lost II - 12/29/19 07:24 PM
Originally Posted by KristinG
My thinking is to sit her down and calmly explain that I am done living in an open relationship. Tell her to please respect my need for space and that I have some things I need to think about regarding moving forward for myself.

Then calmly, get up, and leave.

I don't know if she will reach out, although that tends to be her reaction. Very quickly. It terrifies me, because I have been so weak to this in the past.

Great plan. I agree with Yail that the less you talk about your feelings, the better.

I also agree that if you worry about being weak to her responses, then block her number. Just tell yourself, I will block her number for X amount of time (a week? a month?) I suggest that you do not tell her you are doing this.

If you do feel like you are going to respond to her, come here and post first. We have all been there... it's so easy to get sucked into responding in the heat of the moment. And our WAS's know exactly how to get us to respond.

Look, you've gone through a year of h3ll with your emotions. She can get all worked up in a tizzy, but think about what YOU have gone through. You don't have to cater to her emotions.
Posted By: ovrrnbw Re: Confused and Lost II - 12/29/19 07:44 PM
K,

I had to lol at the mother trucker comment.

Quote
My thinking is to sit her down and calmly explain that I am done living in an open relationship. Tell her to please respect my need for space and that I have some things I need to think about regarding moving forward for myself.
Don't. Show her instead. Don't call, text, etc. No comms, period!

Quote
I don't know if she will reach out, although that tends to be her reaction. Very quickly. It terrifies me, because I have been so weak to this in the past. I gave her a letter in May detailing my need for her to end things or not contact me. One week later she did just that ended things with OW and called me in a panic. When I found out they were still sleeping together, I told her I needed space. Two days later and she was back in "Baby, I don't ever want to lose you" mode. It's been a whirl wind of emotions. So my gut says that she most likely will panic and end things to come home, only to waffle in her decision once again. I don't think my heart could take it again. I'm most scared of that reaction and how to respond so I don't get hurt again at that level.
If you read my sitch, going NC was the thing that helped my W realize her feelings for me. Now I went NC 2 or 3 times, and my W would freak the hell out, but she ran back to OM. But it still helped, like last Christmas she came running home crying saying she wanted to be with me. Now I was no DB ninja so I caved too quickly, but I did get a commitment out of it, had 1 more setback, and here we are now talking about kids and life plans.

My advice is to go NC (at least a few days) for a while and stay that way until she promises a 100% commitment or you are navigating the divorce process. NC is statistically the best way to get an ex back. Your W has strong feelings for you, so by going NC you let her see how bad she wants you, you stop the cake eating, you make her desperation help her decide what she really wants, you gain your space and clarity. But you can't keep hanging out with her and being physically and emotionally open if you want her to make a change.
Posted By: IronWill Re: Confused and Lost II - 12/29/19 09:36 PM
Hey Kristin -

I like parts of all the suggestions. I would recommend a mixture of the two. Going NC - then if/when she asks why you haven't responded, kindly and calmly tell her that you don't want to be in an open R, you need your space to think about things and to please respect that.

Only thing is, if you do say it...you gotta mean it.

Stay strong smile
Posted By: KristinG Re: Confused and Lost II - 12/30/19 03:52 PM
Guys thank you all so much for the advice and feedback.

Last night I got suckered into an R talk - the first time in months. WW asked yet again why I don't wear my wedding ring. She felt as though I am seeing someone else and thus removed my ring. I tried to stay very calm and explain that I removed my ring because it didn't feel right to wear it while she was dating someone else. She didn't deny anything and kept pushing me for how I'm feeling, etc. I broke guys. I told her that I have decided that I'm done living in an open relationship. That I'm done waiting. That she has been sleeping with someone else for over a year. I told her that I want nothing more than a future with her, but that I will not continue in a painful and toxic relationship. I left.

She called me on my way home and, like a sucker, I answered. She was crying and I tried listening and validating. She told me everything would be ok and she knows what she has to do etc. Then, as if nothing had happened, said that she would cook us dinner tomorrow (today). I told her that, no, I don't want her to call me, I don't want to hang out with her, and I want to remove myself from this open relationship.

She hung up and quickly changed attitudes via text. First, I got the "you just send me papers and I'll sign and never bother you again" text. Then, I got the "go be with whomever you took that ring off for" text. I did reply but only because I felt as though I needed the conversation last night to have some semblance of closure for me. I told her that I have even so much as flirted with anyone and that I don't want a divorce, or any of this but I won't stay while she is dating someone else. She abruptly ended the conversation with another "I'll make this easy on you, just send me the papers and I'll sign" text.

I'm spiraling guys. I know that I have to stick to this line. It's ripping my heart in two. Deep breath KG. Deep breath and tell yourself that you don't want to be with someone who is blatantly cheating on you.

KG
Posted By: Yail Re: Confused and Lost II - 12/30/19 04:23 PM
I'm so sorry KG. I wish I could say "call me, we'll chat".

There are so many platitudes that we could say that are true but won't make you feel better. The only one that helped me a tiny bit was from my coworkers, both of which have been through this: "The only way through - is through". There isn't a shortcut to this. Just knowing that helped to steel me to move forward.

For what it's worth, you did really well with the conversation. It wasn't "strictly" DB, but do not let that make you pause for one second. There is no perfect way to handle this, and you did really really well by sticking to your statement of not wanting to stand by why she has another R.

The quick attitude change is common in someone who is cheating. I don't know why, but it's something I've noticed. This is the part where you do want to remember who YOU are and what your values are. She may do things out of character. Notice the attempted gaslighting? She's trying to make you feel crazy. DO NOT let it work. Do not waiver when she is trying to make you feel guilty as if you were cheating during this, or for taking your ring off. If she can believe your behavior is the same as hers, then she can feel like what she's doing is fine and she can continue. But it's not fine, and you've just shown her with your actions that you won't stand by it.

The thing is, you're not spiraling. She is. She's not getting what she wants and she lashed out. You feel like the world is crumbling but in the end I promise promise PROMISE you it will be okay.

Don't feel like you have to file, just because she told you to. If you want to talk about that option I'm here to chat, but I think it's too soon to consider it rationally. Right now I think you should emotionally rest, and hold the door shut to her for a few days. Just practice moving through the awfulness, and try to find something that brings you comfort (I watched a lot of Netflix and movies that made me feel happy and safe).
Posted By: IronWill Re: Confused and Lost II - 12/30/19 04:34 PM
Yail nailed it in that post, wow. ^^^

I'm so sorry this happened Kristin. All of us are here for you. smile

I agree, take some time and let your emotions settle. They're gonna be all over the place for awhile, but that is normal.

Remember that you can go as slow as you need to - I find that when I'm spiraling I put all decisions affecting my life on one-tenth speed. It helps me a lot.

Take care - stay strong smile
Posted By: KristinG Re: Confused and Lost II - 12/30/19 05:07 PM
Originally Posted by Yail


The thing is, you're not spiraling. She is. She's not getting what she wants and she lashed out. You feel like the world is crumbling but in the end I promise promise PROMISE you it will be okay.



Thanks Yail and IW. Did I mention that she asked if I would like to spend New Years together and then said that she is taking OW to get a tattoo and then we could meet up after?! Like really? She is coming to get one of our dogs in a few. I am breathing through it and I won't lose it - I'm at work. Bleh.

KG
Posted By: Yail Re: Confused and Lost II - 12/30/19 05:35 PM
"Like, really?" is exactly the correct response.


Pop back here and post if you want after this interaction. I know it's a tough one for you.
Posted By: unchien Re: Confused and Lost II - 12/30/19 06:36 PM
Kristin ~ Sorry about that tough interaction. Great advice from IW about slowing down when you feel like you are spiraling.

You changed the terms of your relationship and she had a strong emotional reaction. This is normal. I look at these things in 2 ways:

1. She started throwing out emotional "bait" to try to get you back. First sadness, then anger. She'll keep tossing out bait until you bite.

2. She is going through her own strong emotional reaction. You can empathize with that, while also leaving her to tend to her own emotions.

Our WAS's know us better than anyone. They know what buttons to push, how to get us to respond, etc. Even if it is not malevolent, they know how to manipulate. They know how we will respond.
Posted By: may22 Re: Confused and Lost II - 12/30/19 07:00 PM
KG,

I know this is so, so awful and difficult. I want to point out a couple of things:

-- you did it!! You stuck to your boundaries, you were honest with yourself and with her, and you were incredibly strong in the hardest of places. Yay you!

--Totally with Yail on the fact that she's the one spiraling. You're strong, dealing with the inevitable emotional fallout of doing something incredibly hard but necessary.

--I think the fact that you can see her lashing out, gaslight attempting, flip-flopping behaviors for what they are AND were able to not get reeled back in by what she said is a huge step forward. I would expect more of the same in the coming days, maybe even with more vigor-- be ready for it.

On that last note, if you go back to basic reinforcement theory, when you're working on extinguishing a behavior there is often an "extinction burst" where the subject keeps trying the same behavior more and more, bigger and better before they finally give up (the rat who learned to press the lever to get the treat-- once the lever stops producing treats, the rat might press on it a ton, really hard, before it finally realizes it doesn't work anymore. And the less regular the reinforcement schedule is, the longer it takes to extinguish the behavior-- so the rat that got a treat every single time it pressed the lever learns much faster that it no longer works than the rat whose lever produced a treat after a random schedule of presses.)

Not that your WW is a rat, but... she has a year under her belt of getting you to give in, mostly by being nice and promising to change, but not really demonstrating that change in a meaningful way. So... I would expect that she's going to come at you pretty hard and try a bunch of different strategies like you saw the other night. Be prepared. Don't give in!! I definitely still recommend considering some of the things people had suggested you consider, like blocking her number, filling your days with fun, maybe getting out of town for a couple of days.

Is your new cordless vac a Dyson? I ridiculously love mine. wink

Also... toot toot.

Hang in there. I'll probably be where you are soon, maybe even tomorrow.... our kids are sleeping over at someone's house tonight and my guess is it will be time for an R talk and it will be my turn to set out my boundaries and extract myself from an unhealthy situation.

M.
Posted By: ovrrnbw Re: Confused and Lost II - 12/30/19 08:12 PM
I wouldn't suggest blocking the phone # if you are still married, but if and when you aren't, then block away.

You can avoid that R talk by simply going NC for a few (or a lot of) days. Or at a minimum stop answering most calls. Answer occasionally. Don't respond to all texts. Don't respond to texts that aren't a question.
Posted By: KristinG Re: Confused and Lost II - 12/30/19 08:17 PM
Ok - pickup of fur kid over. We hugged for a bit and cried. She kept saying she just wants her family back. I just told her I know and that I do too, but I can't keep going the way it is. She left and has been texting me trying to bait with chit chat. I have to stay strong. I'm terrified of failing again. NO... Strength.


U, you are absolutely right and I know she will turn on the charm to try and bait me. She knows I'm still completely attached. I'm trying my best to stick to my guns.

May, I debated on Dyson vs Shark and ultimately went with a higher Shark model because I found a ridiculous sale on the pet pro. It's crazy how well they work on hardwood and carpet. I never knew how much I could love not having a cord! I hope if you get into an R talk with H that you keep a level head and speak from the heart. Set those boundaries girl! Our journey has been very much side by side and it's crazy how similar both our WAS's are in what they want.


KG
Posted By: KristinG Re: Confused and Lost II - 12/30/19 08:25 PM
Ovr (and others),

I can't block her number as she still works in my other office part time and I have to be able to communicate for that reason. Also, I've never been one to block and walk from anyone. I prefer to face it unless it becomes an abusive situation or a need to remove said person from my life becomes a reality. I don't want to remove her and we are still married. I have to pull myself away to protect myself, but right now that does not mean that (for me) I feel the need to block. Plus, I know I'm still very attached and very much in love. Pull away, protect, grow for myself, prepare for D if that is what she wants, and set a date that I will move forward if no commitment.

KG
Posted By: unchien Re: Confused and Lost II - 12/30/19 09:19 PM
Kristin ~

Instead of blocking, try waiting before responding. Our WAS's have a great way of making things sound urgent, getting us ramped up emotionally, etc. When she reaches out, try committing to some period of time (a few hours?) before taking any action. Post here if you need advice in the meantime. I turned off previews on my phone, so if I see my W texted me, I don't see the content until I unlock my phone. I will intentionally not check the content of the message for awhile (assuming I know it cannot be anything urgent).

Example of the kind of bait you might get:

"How are we going to get through this if you don't respond to me?"
"You aren't showing me any respect by going silent."
"I'm really upset and I want to work this out with you. Please! I can't deal with this!"

Do you need to respond to any of that? No. Will it get your emotions stirred up? Absolutely.

Good catch on idle chit-chat. It is often a way to just make sure you are there and responding.
Posted By: Yail Re: Confused and Lost II - 12/30/19 10:53 PM
Yes, unchien is correct in the examples here (they're really good). S

he will try to make it sound like this is your fault and that YOU are the reason healing can't occur. Notice that about each of the examples: they're written as if the writer just wants to get back together (but they definitely aren't saying that. No statements that anything will change, and no apologies), and at the same time implying or stating that it's your fault.

Pause and read between the lines of everything she writes. Pause and consider how it makes you feel. Sad? Fearful? Hurt? Hopeful? Like you just want to respond and correct her? This is the power of her words over you, and it may be helpful to simply acknowledge it.

I found it immensely helpful to name my emotions out loud. So you could say, "WW's text made me feel SCARED she is just waiting for me to reach out to fix this". That's the emotion, but that's not what's happening. Saying it helps you to see that.

How often do you have fur-baby swaps? Is there a way you can minimize these? Is there a schedule?
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Confused and Lost II - 12/31/19 02:53 AM
Originally Posted by KristinG
I broke guys. I told her that I have decided that I'm done living in an open relationship. That I'm done waiting. That she has been sleeping with someone else for over a year. I told her that I want nothing more than a future with her, but that I will not continue in a painful and toxic relationship. I left.

She called me on my way home and, like a sucker, I answered. She was crying and I tried listening and validating. She told me everything would be ok and she knows what she has to do etc. Then, as if nothing had happened, said that she would cook us dinner tomorrow (today). I told her that, no, I don't want her to call me, I don't want to hang out with her, and I want to remove myself from this open relationship.

She hung up and quickly changed attitudes via text. First, I got the "you just send me papers and I'll sign and never bother you again" text. Then, I got the "go be with whomever you took that ring off for" text. I did reply but only because I felt as though I needed the conversation last night to have some semblance of closure for me. I told her that I have even so much as flirted with anyone and that I don't want a divorce, or any of this but I won't stay while she is dating someone else. She abruptly ended the conversation with another "I'll make this easy on you, just send me the papers and I'll sign" text.


I will politely disagree that you broke. You did exactly what you everyone here should do when dealing with a cheating spouse.

Stick to your boundaries. They work.

HUGS
Posted By: Yail Re: Confused and Lost II - 12/31/19 09:46 PM
How are you doing today KG?
Posted By: unchien Re: Confused and Lost II - 01/03/20 04:37 PM
KG ~ How are things?
Posted By: KristinG Re: Confused and Lost II - 01/03/20 08:54 PM
Hello All!

I took a couple of days away for the holiday. End of year for work is tedious and so I have been hitting it hard. I ended up going to the NYE party with ww. We had a great evening filled with friends and laughter, but I was emotional and sensitive. I was kind of a jerk to her towards the end of the night and pushed her away. I am so scared of getting hurt again that I know it's a protective reaction on my part.

The next day we texted some and she told me that she knows that she wants to reconcile. She knows that she wants a future with me and that she will do whatever she has to do in order to make it a reality. That she is going to fight for us.

It's everything I want to hear. I told her that she knows what has to happen for me to even consider moving forward and that we cannot move forward while she has a girlfriend. I want all the things she says that she does. I know KG will be ok either way it goes.

I had some more work things to do yesterday and when she stopped by (for work), she told me that she ended everything with OW. She told me that she wanted to talk and asked if I could come over to her house after work. I agreed - plus it was my team's bowl game yesterday in football - woot!

We talked almost all night. She said that she knows that she wants us and our future. She said that she has been scared lately that I don't want the same things. We talked about our fears and what we both want moving forward. I explained that I want to take things slowly, and that there is so much trust that has to be rebuilt. She wants time before we even begin to try R for her to move on from OW. For her to fight and "make it stick". WW told me that she has never been able to open up to OW and that lately, OW has been pressuring her for commitment and for her to leave the MR. I listened and let her know that I am not ready to reconcile. That I want a future where we are together, but that she needs to fight for us and prove that she wants the same things.

I know this a lengthy update. I know I did not successfully go NC. I also know that I am going to try my best to not put any stock into what she is telling me without time and proof in the pudding. I am also going to keep growing and working myself and the things that make me happy outside of any relationship.

I hope you all had a fantastic NYE. If you didn't, take heart, it can only go up.

KG
Posted By: may22 Re: Confused and Lost II - 01/03/20 09:13 PM
Hi KG,

Sticking to your guns and telling her you aren't ready to reconcile until she can demonstrate through her actions, not just her words, that she's all in was probably really powerful. Great job!! I also think it is healthy that she wants some time to move on from OW. It feels like if you can stick with this, you've successfully removed yourself as the other ping-pong paddle-- whether you went fully NC or not-- you're still not playing the game anymore and she knows it. Time feels important now and so glad to hear you keep the focus on yourself and what makes you happy and fulfilled beyond your W.

Thanks for updating and for all your support-- YOU are an incredibly strong and amazing person and it feels so awesome to watch you take back your power. smile
Posted By: Yail Re: Confused and Lost II - 01/03/20 10:19 PM
Proceed with caution, but if you feel it is best to proceed please do. We can't read the details in your sitch, and I truly truly hope this is a new type of R for you and your W.

I do have two thoughts that I hope don't rain on your parade. I'm not trying to be negative, but a realistic outsider.

1) WW has stated that OW has become pushy and it wasn't working. She also states she knows she wants a future with you. Really listen carefully to her reasoning, and determine if it is enough for you. Does she want to be with you because it wasn't working with OW, or because she wants YOU as a life partner with all of your glory and faults.

I hope it is the latter. But I want you to try to read between the lines here and really get as much information as you can while you move forward.

2) Request (require) that she get tested before intimacy. This is one way you can put your foot down and demand some respect from her. Prove you are taking care of YOURSELF with this requirement.

Lastly, you ask her to fight for you. That's a good request, but it also might not be realistic. Coming out of an affair sometimes people don't have "fight" in them. But demand respect and transparency in all things. Slow and growing committment might be more powerful than "fight". It's easy to make a big demonstrative showing of affection. It's harder to show slow growing true love and respect. The flashy fun stuff can come later, when you're fully a unit again.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Confused and Lost II - 01/03/20 11:35 PM

Those that go back too quickly and let the other come back too easily have less chances of making the R work.

I believe you are easily seduced by WW words. Trust her actions over a longer period.

Do you have your list of non-negotiables?
Posted By: KristinG Re: Confused and Lost II - 01/04/20 12:17 AM
Yail,

No rain here in this fabulous parade. I'm trying to ignore the grand gestures because, honestly, I don't trust it yet. Every fiber of my heart wants it to be true, but it feels like a pipe dream. Therefore, I value realistic and honest opinions. They keep me grounded.

Originally Posted by Yail


1) WW has stated that OW has become pushy and it wasn't working. She also states she knows she wants a future with you. Really listen carefully to her reasoning, and determine if it is enough for you. Does she want to be with you because it wasn't working with OW, or because she wants YOU as a life partner with all of your glory and faults.



The way she spoke it seemed to be more of the latter. She was very clear that she thought if she left me, that they would have a successful relationship and could be very happy. WW also felt very clear about the fact that, although it could be a great relationship, she did not feel like she wanted to open up on a deeper level with OW as I have historically been that person for her.

As far as intimacy goes, I think we're a long way from that. One of her biggest fears is that she won't be able to connect with me in that way anymore. Side note: we always had a fantastic sex life and have both acknowledged that it was never an issue. We shall see where the cookie crumbles.

KG
Posted By: ovrrnbw Re: Confused and Lost II - 01/05/20 05:03 PM
Quote
I know this a lengthy update. I know I did not successfully go NC. I also know that I am going to try my best to not put any stock into what she is telling me without time and proof in the pudding. I am also going to keep growing and working myself and the things that make me happy outside of any relationship.


That wasn't lengthy, have you read any of my posts? Ha!

I agree with R2C. Proceed slowly. Believe nothing, verify everything. Enforce boundaries. Don't set boundaries you won't enforce.

I took my WW back very easily every time, it didn't work well. Just remember that nothing requires an immediate answer. I'd be cautious about her having ended things.

Good luck.
Posted By: IronWill Re: Confused and Lost II - 01/05/20 08:25 PM
Hey Kristin -

It's nice to hear positive news, and it sounds like W is saying the right things. But as you know by now, words have to be backed up by consistent actions, and time is needed to rebuild trust.

I might recommend taking this very slowly. Keep your guard up for now - the last thing you want is to get into a game of pursuit and distance. That's not to say to be mean or cold (I advocate kindness as much as is possible), but it's to suggest that you protect KG.

Another thing you don't want is W thinking "it isn't working out with OW, at least I still have KG", because then this whole thing has a much greater chance of repeating itself somewhere down the line.

You seem to be a very level headed individual, and you seem to be growing stronger every day. Good for you - keep going! smile

Take care - and Happy New Year!
Posted By: KristinG Re: Confused and Lost II - 01/07/20 04:05 PM
Ovr,

LOL at your post. I have definitely read some novels typed out on your thread! I'm still trying to come up with a list of boundaries. I think I have read through setting boundaries and the thread here 1000 times. It still is an area in which I don't even know how to begin or practice in everyday life. I have no way currently to verify anything about whether ww is still in contact. I am trying to trust her words and my gut. I haven't snooped on her in months and it was really toxic for me and limited my own personal growth, so I really don't want to go back to that insanity. I am definitely taking things slow and trying to give it all time to see if she will stick to her words.

IW,

Consistent actions my friend. This is my new mantra HA! You're absolutely right in that I have to continue to protect myself. I hope you're doing well and I will dip in on your thread soon.

Here is the link to the new thread peeps.

Through The Storm III

KG
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