Hi all,
I hope this works!
This is my new thread, linking on from the first one:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2861584&page=1 My first post on my first thread gives a detailed outline of the beginning of my sitch. Thanks to all who came on board and helped me.
Cheers DS
Thanks to Dan and AS for their last posts too - my thread was locked so I couldnt acknowledge there.
Hi all
Hope everyone survived and thrived another week.
Was just after some guidance from the vets on boundary issue please, preferably asap as I need to get an email out.....
Context is last night S, XW and I attended a school info evening for new school next year. As we approached to check a list on the board of S's school group, I was ahead and started saying I'd found his name and group, to which XW grabbed my arm, tried to pull me back, and told me to let him find it etc. S was right next to us, and parents everywhere, but I dont think anyone noticed. I said nothing because we were in such a public area etc.
It needs to be addressed as a boundary issue that I wont tolerate.
I'm thinking an email as follows:
Hi XW
I was thinking about the school info session last night.
I acknowledge I've still got work to do in allowing our S's independence and finding things out for himself.
But when you grabbed me by the arm, I felt disrespected.
I want you to not grab me to get my attention but talk to me discretely and at a good time about these things, unless its an emergency.
If the grabbing happens again, I'll attend these events separately from you until it stops. I'd appreciate you respecting my wishes there.
Regds DS
Any thoughts?
I was going to put that at the end of an email dealing with some mundane parentign stuff
Thanks guys
Hi all,
I'm annoyed to say I'm at a bit of a very low ebb at the moment. It's come on by surprise, over the last week or so due to a few issues, and feels like a reset button has been pushed.
Just venting, journalling, and seeking some support, encouragement and feedback folks. I have a lot to get off my chest
*******************************************************************
First issue
The other night, my SS text me wanting to come over. He'd had a fight with XW over some home chore issue, and XW got physical with him. XW had some dude over, and this guy was laughing during the altercation. She kicked SS out and he has to leave shortly. SS was distraught because XW got physical. I was blown away.
SS poured out a lot. He reckons his mum is toxic, and wants power and control. He doesn't know how I put up with her for so many years and that I deserved better. He felt manipulated that she wanted him to move home and now wants him out. He asked if I was seeing anyone and I told him I'm focussing on me and S. He asked if I would take her back and I told him I don't know and would need to think about it as we would both need to change. I said I don't know what XW told him, but our separation wasn't my doing nor what I wanted, but I respected his mum's decision and she was a good woman who I loved - that blew him away.
He said XW and I are so different, and that he is so glad my S has me as a father. I discussed emotions and personal changes and development with him. I told him despite the physical altercation, his mum loves him and always will, and that she's going through a difficult emotional time, but the physical altercation was no excuse. He asked if XW ever hit me, and I said she had once threatened to. He asked if I am smoking, and I said I never would again. He said that XW has taken up smoking again (that stunned me too).
We had a few drinks, and worked out in the home gym. He wants to move out, and I told him I thought that's a good move. It's so surreal. A year ago, I couldn't be in the same room with him due to anxiety over our history, with XW at that time so anxious to keep in touch with him and treating him like a little kid due to guilt. It still makes my head spin how things have changed.
I don't know what to do with this situation guys. Any thoughts???
*********************************************************************
Last week, my SIL called me all stressed out. MIL has a serious condition requiring medication, but stopped taking it (she doesn't like being told what to do), and had regressed. SIL called me to vent and see what I could do, as apparently I'm the only one MIL listens to and she values my advice. I told her leave it to me and I'd handle it, and managed to convince MIL to restart her meds, and have been calling her nightly to check in. XW isn't interested as her and MIL still aren't talking (XW was very worried about this during the M though), but SIL has told XW what I've done. SIL again raised how sorry she was about what XW did and couldnt understand it, and how her and her family will be there for me. I told her I was absolutely fine and for her to continue supporting and being compassionate to her sister as she's going through an emotionally difficult time.
It's draining, but I'm going to keep helping my MIL. Anyone else been in this sitch? Any hints or tips?
*********************************************************************
we had the school info night I mentioned in previous posts.
XW asked for a lift in with S, or if I didnt want to, theyd just walk. Its on the way, so I said no worries and said a time I'd pick them up. XW was late at pick up. Old me would have asked what time to collect them and old me would've got out of car to check what's happening as I dislike tardiness. I just sat in the car though and waited and said nothing about lateness.
As we walked from the car, XW raised about collection for S's party attendance with a friend. She was working and couldn't drop him off so previously asked if I could. I previously agreed by email, but said she should collect (she'd be home by then). She raised collection again during the walk, and was quite tense about it. I said I'd emailed saying she could collect and I'd drop off, but she reckoned she hadn't seen it. Old me would have insisted I'd sent it, and agreed to collect as well. I just said I'd resend it again, but maintained I couldn't collect as I had plans, which annoyed her. She started counting aloud the hours of sleep she'd get before having to collect, but I kept walking.
Once inside, the arm grab incident happened. I sent the email referred above the next day. She replied with thanking me for honesty with my feelings, that it wasn't her intention (rather to stop me) she wouldn't touch me again, and that I could do what I felt best for me. I didn't reply.
Otherwise, school meeting went well. Whilst waiting, she found the email I sent, said she had seen it, but she missed the message about collection due to the large paragraph it was in. I looked over and lightheartedly said "yikes, it was a big paragraph! I'll break it up into smaller parts next time so it's clearer". Small talk, and she brushed my arm with her hand like she used to. As usual, I didn't react.
It came time to break off to check out individual subject stalls. I got up and said I was headed to stall X, if she could do stall Y, then left to the other side of the hall. Old me would have followed her lead, and followed her. A few minutes later, she was at my stall. I just asked her to take my place in line and I'd do the next one, then left. Old me would have hung around til she told me to go to the next stall. She was always big on splitting up tasks and rushing and doing everything asap.
I kept moving stalls and she kept shadowing. She sat down but I kept going. I sat down once I finished and a few seconds later, she came and sat down near me. I just kept reading the school material I'd collected.
On the walk back to the car, I raised S's school graduation function and reminded S to hand in the form and money. XW said it's free. I told her I'd invited SS and SD, and as SD was coming, I needed to pay for her attendance. XW seemed surprised when asking if I'd contacted them, and said she hadn't thought of inviting them. Old old me would have left the invitations to SS and SD to her. It surprised me she hadnt thought of that
I got in the car and asked S to hold the door for mummy and help her in. Old old me, without fail, always held the door and helped her in. She used to love the old school 'gentleman' habits I had. I'm fired from that, but I want my S to be a gentleman to his mum.
**********************************************************************************
XW text me this morning asking if I could drop my S's stuff off to her place before school. Changeover is today and she usually collects his stuff from my place after she gets him from school, but he now catches the bus. I said no worries, but if she could do the same next changeover too for me. She agreed. Old me would have just dropped it off without asking for anything in return. Thanks R2C - I got this reciprocity idea from you.
Hi DS
Sounds like you've had quite an up-and-down last few days. Must have been hard to have this all sprung on you like this.
Bear in mind I am not a parent, but from what you say I think you dealt with SS really well and provided support. It must have felt good to hear him compliment your attitude etc. Perhaps talk to him more frequently and gauge how he feels about the situation after thinking about things...?
The way you came across with SIL was absolutely fine. Not bitter to XW at all and displaying some understanding. It may be worth 'sharing' the checking up on MIL with SIL (?).
Good job setting the boundary re arm grab, and her reaction was very acceptable and in your favour. I need to remember this process in case my W says or does things like this at all. You are doing really well at being assertive but not rude, and polite but firm. It is working.
Thanks Dan
It was very unpleasant. It’s abnormal getting physical with family. The centre of these issues seems to be XW.
Yeah it was good to hear ss say those things. A couple of years ago I was seriously considering a restraining order against him due to his behaviour. That shows how far we’ve come.
I’ve kept sil in the loop with everything and we’ve been tag teaming looking out for mil
Yeah it was an appropriate boundary but I never thought I’d need to do it. I’m glad I did though.
DS glad you are able to put up boundaries. You must have had some positive influence in SS life because he feels safe coming to you with his problems. I know that doesn't help you out to much but you have had a huge influence in someone else's life.
Hi all,
There's been some further strange developments which I'd appreciate some feedback on, as I think I'm doing the right thing for me, but not too sure overall...
I was out having burgers and drinks the other evening as part of my GAL. Got a no ID call, but didnt answer, as I suspected it was XW (she does no caller ID). Shortly after, a text, asking to call her as SS is going 'crazy'. I called.
XW said she only wanted to give me the heads up that SS would probably be coming to my place becuase they had a huge fight again. She says SS has threatened to go to the authroities with evidence, and ruin her job after the physical incident from the other night, and said he won't be leaving her place til he's ready. She said she thought he came to my place the other night, that he threatened her, and how could she have done the things he claimed as he's a lot bigger. If police come, there's 2 sides to the story, the whole neighbourhood heard the screaming, he's crazy, he has sworn at S, S doesnt want him around too, and he can't stay with her, and S has locked himself in his room, but SS has gone and is coming back later.
She sounded very tense, and I could hear her puffing away on a cig. I essentially just listened. Lots of mm'hmm's, that's awful, how are you feeling, what are you going to do, and similar type things. She said 'is that your psychology [censored]', then immdeiately backed down and said 'sorry, no, its not'.
I could tell by my tone and things I said I was quite distant, and I indicated I was out and had to go outside to talk as their was loud music where I was. I offered no solutions or opinions, nor did I comment on what SS told me the other night, other than to confirm he came and told me they'd had a fight. She kept telling me sorry for disturbing me, and I said it was no problem. I asked her what she was intending to do and she said she'd locked the doors, taken SS keys, and would have a drink and wait. I told her I hope it works out.
She again said sorry to disturb me, and again made a big point that the only reason she wanted to speak was to tell me SS might want to come to my place and to give me the heads up.
I dunno, but I think she wanted to vent about everything, as she's called before about issues under the guise it was just to tell me about one issue or give a heads up, and I think she maybe wanted me to step in and help. Old me would have been round to her place straight away to make sure nothing further happened. Old me would have offered thoughts, opinions, taken her side, and got involved in getting SS to stay with me.
I called back 30 minutes later, telling her I'd been thinking about what she said and would be happy to take S to my place for a few hours or overnight to give her some space to sort out issues with SS and until things settled. She declined and said everythings ok, S is fine, and SS hasnt come back. She dovetailed that into telling me how now she cant rely on SS to care for S when she works, and has to negotiate with SD to look after S. Told her I hope it works out.
She then moved to MIL issues, how her uncle told her she wouldn't want to pass away and regret not apologising to her. She said she called MIL to apologise, but MIL was screaming and swearing at her, and XW doesnt care as that's not acceptable behaviour, which I agreed.
XW noted speaking with her sister and how I'd gotten MIL onto her medicine and that that's because MIL only listens to men (no thank you of course, just that grudging acknowledgement). XW said jokingly 'you thought you'd escaped!' but I said I'd always be there to help her mum. She said her and her sister would be looking into aged care options for MIL in the next few months. I said something light about 'bloody parents' and how nobody tells her mum what to do, then wished her luck with organising that and I hoped everything else worked out as well. She was again apologetic for disturbing me, and I said it wasn't a problem.
Next day I got a string of several sms reminding me about a school appointment (an early evening mundane one I didnt need to go to) she booked and if I wanted to come, reminding me to collect S to take to school, reminding me about her 2nd upcoming holiday, asking to swap care dates for S because of that, asking me to feed the dogs, then telling me she'd ask SD to do that, then telling me SD would do it.
Several hours later I replied by confirming (yet again) I'd collect S, and saying I couldnt make the school appointment but thanks for asking. I didnt reply to any of the other stuff.
Last night I got another text as I'm heading out for GAL activities, asking very politely to do a huge favour and come to her place to keep an eye on things as SS was coming over shortly to collect belongings, but she would be at work and SD and S were there. I replied about 30 mins later with a short 'Sorry, I'm out and about". Old me would have stopped what I was doing and gone there
Guys, could I please have feedback? I'm torn. I have a tendency to feel obliged to help, but I know for my own sake and sanity I can't keep getting sucked back in to her vortex of problems, needs, becuase it will keep happening and keep me down.
I've made peace with my SS. My relationship with SD is good. XW's family relationship problems are now solely hers right? I'm not plan B, I'm not the go to guy for her, I'm not going to be taken advantage of any more.
Oh, and I've finished reading DR and getting stuck into NMMNG
Guys, could I please have feedback? I'm torn. I have a tendency to feel obliged to help, but I know for my own sake and sanity I can't keep getting sucked back in to her vortex of problems, needs, becuase it will keep happening and keep me down.
Sounds like you handled it all well. You offered some listening and validation without trying to fix her problems. You're maintaining some distance despite her trying to yank you around like you're her puppet. I think the only adjustment you might consider is being a little less available. Seems EVERYTHING is a big emergency to her, if you don't reply to a text then you get more texts and calls until you capitulate. She's trying to control and manipulate you.
I agree with AS - you've done really well recently with interactions.
Maybe don't always help out. Of course if MIL is in serious trouble or at risk of injury for example, then I would imagine that is fine.
Otherwise, I think more of the "Sorry I'm out and about" responses would work. I notice she didn't react negatively to that so from what AS says it seems that everything she contacts you about is a massive problem.
Thanks Dan and AS really appreciate the support. Was triggered today again because I’m still finding it hard to accept how much she changed toward me but too weary to write about it now. Nearly 9 months in and its a little easier but a ways to go yet. Sometimes I scorn the fact that I’m so sensitive then I realise I should be proud of it and it’s a good quality, but need to make better choices with my women and be cautious about not allowing advantages to be taken
Was triggered today again because I’m still finding it hard to accept how much she changed toward me
I agree 100% and wonder if I will ever come to terms with this. She texted me the morning of BD that she loved me. That evening she told me she didn't love me anymore and just morphed into completely different person. The thing I always have to remind myself is my XW was building resentment and losing respect for me for years (doesn't matter whether this was justified or not it just is).
Was triggered today again because I’m still finding it hard to accept how much she changed toward me
I agree 100% and wonder if I will ever come to terms with this. She texted me the morning of BD that she loved me. That evening she told me she didn't love me anymore and just morphed into completely different person. The thing I always have to remind myself is my XW was building resentment and losing respect for me for years (doesn't matter whether this was justified or not it just is).
Resentment is what they silently build quietly for years until there is no respect left. The tally sheet is a mile long, usually over little things, then finally comes out as character assassination. Rather than resolve the issue permanently its easier for them to let go and start over. Funny thing is you never know it until it is too late. Stuff you long forgot about and swept under the rug from years ago comes up. So much for living in the present for them. But they love living in the present once they conveniently forget all the good things you did for them. This is why you always pay attention to their actions and never their words.
Rather than resolve the issue permanently its easier for them to let go and start over.
Certainly it isn't in all sitch's but I believe in a lot of them there are issues from childhood. That isn't to say the marriage didn't have problems but only that the root of what they need to resolve doesn't even have to do with their marriage partner at all.
Hi all,
Went round to XW's to collect my son. Hadn't seen her in probably a couple of weeks, last time being when she drove past me as I was on a walk, with her waving frantically and me just acknowledging with a finger wave from the forehead.
As usual, dressed in my work finery, and waited at the porch. She rushed to the door and seemed upbeat, invited me in, but I declined. I handed her a road toll module which she forgot to pick up from my place. She said she'd ordered a new one as she thought that's what I wanted her to do. I told her lightheartedly I thought I said to come get it (I had laid out clear instructions in an email the week before).
She wanted me to come in to help with my S's new school gear, and said I didn't need to take my shoes off, but I did anyway.
She got quite close to me and launched into telling me about the new school stuff. I thanked her for organising that. She told me I need to write his name on his hat. I looked at her with incredulity and lightheartedly said "Why didnt you do that!?" She reckons she didn't have the right pen, and I said neither did I. She said I could pinch one from work, but I told her lightheartedly I'd never do that.
She then asked if I got her email about xmas break arrangements. She has asked me what we should plan. Old me would have asked her what she thought, but I simply told her what i thought for xmas holiday arrangements and she accepted, with a request to change from morning to afternoon due to work (no worries). I told her weekabout to continue, and we'd split the festive days between us. I had considered suggesting some sort of shared festive thing, but didn't, as we're no longer a family. Turns out as she had done the last couple of years she had decided to work anyway through the festive period.
I told her I had and replied, but she reckons I hadnt. I didnt take that any further and merely confirmed what I'd said in my reply (she seems to think I don't reply for whatever reason - used to frustrate me, but not anymore). She then launched into telling me all the dates over xmas she's working. I told her lightheartedly there's no way I could remember all that. She just said she just wants to tell me. I think I've realised that sometimes, where I think she's giving me instructions, she just wants to speak in a stream of consciousness and for me to just listen. I'll remember in future to just listen and validate where appropriate.
She excitedly told me about the new bedroom suite she bought for S and asked if I wanted to see it. Before I could answer, she rushed off to get her phone and show me pictures, telling me how she had to put it on a payment plan. I saw the photo, said how beautiful it was, and told S how lucky he was that mummy got him such a beautiful suite.
It was time to leave, so I ushered S out the door, with XW asking me later in the week if it was ok to come to my place and collect S's stuff at changeover (no worries), and a mutual exchange of 'nice seeing you again' initiated by me.
#####################################
Late last week, I sent XW an email, telling her we needed to swap road toll modules, and asking her to reimburse some money that had come from my account to pay for her recent toll usage and to return her credit card to me (she's a secondary card holder). She agreed, but coupled her reply with a chase up to see if I had paid my share of S's insurance, school gear etc, and to put it into her account, and to tell me that if I wanted her to look after S during the holidays it would be at a cost. I suspect my email annoyed her. Old me would not have asked for a reimbursement, or asked for the card back.
Anyway, I reminded her I had already deposited the money in our old joint account and to take it from there, because I don't have her account details. She's said several times before I have her details. I don't know why she reckons this.
I remember during the R a huge source of anxiety for XW was her XH constantly challenging child support and not paying half of SD and SS's expenses. I remember how much XW and her divorced friends would constantly complain how their X's wouldn't pay, or would pay late, or would challenge every expense etc etc ad nauseum. I remember how at BD XW conflated me with her father and XH, and how I told her I was not these men. I remember her waving her finger screaming "Words mean nothing, actions DS, actions". By my words and by my consistent deeds I have shown her I'm AMOAFWL.
######################################
S and I had huge GAL weekend with 4 of his mates round for a sleepover. What is it with boys these days! I tried to seek refuge in my bedroom, but every 5 minutes the boys would burst in! Cheeky buggers.
I'm getting better at tennis and IC continues. I've been doing IC since March, about twice a month. Childhood issues of attachment, abandonment, shame and feelings of unworthiness keep popping up. I want to address why I struggle being alone. It's going to take a while I think.
Home Gym continues, and I'm making some good inroads with reducing my body fat percentage. I'm eating healthier, and dont eat nearly as much ice cream or junk food as I used to. I never used to drink alcohol, but since BD I'll have a mixed spirit once or twice a week. Love Canadian CLub and dry, or vodka with cranberry. Ive made some good new friends through my best friend and looking forward to catching up with them closer to xmas.
Ive got no idea what S and I will do for Xmas. We'll probably head out for one of those super expensive xmas buffet dinners.
Almost finished NMMNG. It's a good read. I didn't get a huge amount of value from DR. I kept thinking "I already know this' from reading the forums. I got the sense it was a little more geared towards people who hadnt fulled tipped over the abyss.
Went out to the shopping mall and walked past one of XW's divorced friends in the throng. She saw me and her wide eyed expression of shock and recognition was priceless. I strode past, pretending I didn't see her.
and to tell me that if I wanted her to look after S during the holidays it would be at a cost.
I don't understand this mindset. I would think she would be overjoyed to have time with S but instead she seems to treat it like she is a payed babysitter? Maybe I am just misinterpreting the situation.
I'm getting better at tennis and IC continues. I've been doing IC since March, about twice a month. Childhood issues of attachment, abandonment, shame and feelings of unworthiness keep popping up. I want to address why I struggle being alone. It's going to take a while I think.
I have been teaching D13 how to play tennis but the weather has turned so that has been put on pause. Has your IC given you any ideas on how to deal with the abandonment? This is one area that is really rough with me as well.
DS it sounds like you are getting into a pretty good place, do you see any hope or want reconciliation in the future?
Hey roo thanks for checking in buddy it means a lot to me!
I think her saying it’ll cost me is her payback for me asking her to reimburse $50 to my credit card. All her payments from my card have now stopped. Took me 9 months but that’s where I was emotionally. I still felt like it was right to keep paying. Bad db but that’s me.
I’m in an ok place mate. To be honest it hit me hard and it’ll take ages to get back to how I was. It’s not that separation happened but the way it happened and her cruelty to me afterwards.
I give it 0.01% chance to reconcile. I don’t know if I’d take her back there’d need to be a lot of changes. My Step son asked me if I would and I said the same thing. Her own family tell me I deserve better. Intellectually I know that but my emotions rule me still.
Cheers DS
Its hard dealing with the line in the sand of broken trust and mistreatment when someone has crossed it. In the same instance they probably feel the same way for different reasons, and have no problem treating you with contempt because they feel justified for it, and are "just protecting themselves" while playing the victim narrative, never own up to their side of the demise or willing to examine themselves or their actions. Seeing reality for what it really is with someone else, and your self can be hard, humiliating, humbling, rewarding, and painful because of the previous attachments. I know what you are talking about between struggling with your intellectual and emotional intelligence. Its Head vs. Heart. Sometimes we are foolish enough to want what we know what's not good for us because of our emotional detachment. That's why its hard to trust your reekings and your heart, unless they align with your head.
Thanks IH,
All that you've said is so true. Head vs heart. A constant struggle, that is just going to take time. Thanks for the encouragement.
Cheers, DS
It’s not that separation happened but the way it happened and her cruelty to me afterwards.
This exactly. Would love to ask XW how she would feel if some guy had treated D13 the same way she has treated me how she would feel about him.
Head vs heart. A constant struggle, that is just going to take time.
I can't figure out why my heart still feels something for this person? I mean it is easy for me to read your sitch and say DS9 you don't deserve this just move on and you will find someone that will love you for who you are. Then I try to apply that to my own sitch. My heart says I still care deeply, but my brain says you need to let her go to keep your sanity and soul intact.
I can't figure out why my heart still feels something for this person? I mean it is easy for me to read your sitch and say DS9 you don't deserve this just move on and you will find someone that will love you for who you are. Then I try to apply that to my own sitch. My heart says I still care deeply, but my brain says you need to let her go to keep your sanity and soul intact.
Because one moment you were in love with the person to whom you had the greatest attachment in your life, and the next moment it was ripped away from you. With the death of a loved one, there is finality. When this stuff happens, there is no tangible finality, other than faded memories which slowly taper with the passage of time
It's a logical roadblock that needs to be reconciled with emotional feelings, which is very difficult. I don't want to be on my deathbed still thinking about it. On my deathbed, I want to look back and have comfort in the knowledge that despite what happened, and what was done to me, I treated my XW with honour, dignity and respect. There's a saying along the lines of the measure of a man is gauged by his conduct when he is on his knees. I've tried to live by that.
Cheers, DS
Hi all,
My SS wanted to come over and do some home gym work last night, so we hung out for an hour or so. He spoke about his uni studies, and his goals. We talked about his current living arrangements, his XGF, who wants to reconcile, credit card use, and other stuff. I think he looks to me for guidance and encouragement now. I gave him his brithday card and present. We trained, and he slumped to the concrete after 5 minutes, so i laughed and told him I'd buy him some pink 1kg dumbbells for next time he came round. He sms'd me with a thank you and heart emoji after he left.
I keep musing on how things have changed. It was about 2 years ago when he moved out from the marital home, coming back from time to time though, against my wishes and protests. We had attended therapy for him, but nothing worked. The therapist said he had to go. He was a verbally and physically abusive troubled teen. I wont go into detail, but it was really bad, and I copped most of it. Of all the injuries I copped, the one that lingers was when he told me that he wished his mum never met me.
I thought there was no cause for hoped change. I used to block thoughts of him, and being near him caused my hands to tremble, my heart rate to race, and my breathing to go shallow.
But, it changed. We both did, to each other. I'd always felt a sense of guilt about us, and how my XW must've felt. I suppose I opened my arms to my SS coming back out of a sense of repentance to my XW, duty, and 'making it right'.
So, to those that feel a sense of hopelessness that people can't or won't change (drastically), I'd like to bestow you with some hope, becuase it can happen, even when you resign yourself to the opposite
Cheers, DS
Hi DS,
I'm really touched by your story about your SS. Did one of you make the first step towards healing, or was it a mutual journey? It's very mature of your SS especially if he was so troubled. How is his relationship with his mother now?
I like your recent GAL updates. The sleepover with the boys sounds like a whole lot of fun. And Christmas Day buffet with S - awesome! Your personal 180s are obvious and it seems like XW is noticing and responding. Or has she always been chatty and agreeable?
I agree with you about treating our spouses with respect, but it's okay to be removed. Respect from a distance, the way you would a crocodile. Haha! It sounds like we try to live by similar credos. Mine is - to act on principle, not emotion. Not always the easiest thing to do in practice when dealing with an irrational spouse. But still we persevere.
Appreciate your thoughts, as always.
Thanks for your support Scout!
Neither SS or I made the first steps really. It 'just happened' a few months ago. I was with S at a school do, SS texted wanting to come, we met up, and there was just a different vibe. We had lunch, he opened up about his father not being the father he had hoped, and how I had been more of a father to him. I told him despite his mum's decision, and our history, I'd always be his step dad.
SS relationship with XW is non existent now. Just before BD she was pining for him. They got physical a few weeks ago and she kicked him out. He was distraught, and came to me. XW then called me a few days afterwards when they had another blow up, but I just listened, and didnt intervene. She has an ability to cut people from her life, with ice cold detachment.
Yeah, I'm thinking an all you can eat seafood buffet! To be frank, GAL is tough sometimes. I've never really been a solo social person. I didn't keep in touch with all my friends after R commenced because XW wanted me all to herself all the time, and my friends live on the sunny coast, or interstate, so it's a little tough sometimes. I'm going to join some groups on Meetup whihc I just discovered last night.
XW has always been chatty - very, very chatty. I'm quiet. She is agreeable if it agrees with what she wants to do. If it doesn't agree, she is not shy at all in saying so.
Yes, I'm very principled too and it does sound liek we have similar principles we adhere to. Respecting my XW was very big for me. I got a lot of love from her, but very little respect. Like you said, we persevere though.
Cheers, DS
I get the sense you're located in Bris? I am too.
I'm so glad SS shared those feelings with you, and that you were able to reassure him that nothing had changed on your end. The relationship breakdown with XW must be distressing for him, as well as the breakdown of the family. The relationship with H's family is a struggle for me. They have said they are here for us both, and will keep in touch with me. They haven't gone out of their way to do so, though, or reassure me that I'm still family through S1. Am I still aunt to my 2yo niece? I just don't know where I stand. It's mostly silent on their end.
GAL can definitely be hard especially with kids in the mix. Making friends as an adult isn't easy, especially if you're of a quiet nature (I am too). Meetup groups are good. Meeting friends of friends can help widen your circle. Reconnecting with those friends you lost during your R can be really heartening too. Nurturing friendships can turn into a full-time hobby!
Yes, I am. How cool's that! Small world.
Thanks Scout, I was glad too. It actually brought a tear to my eye when he told me how he felt about me. It also brought feelings of intense guilt and regret (both for the pain it caused him and XW, as one of her wishes was that we all got along) that I hadn't done something sooner, but I just couldn't because I didn't know how, and I was too wounded and hurt.
In-law families can be difficult, can't they. Fortunately mine have been fantastic with me. I assured them that despite what happened, as far as I was concerned, nothing changes. Do you think you'll make contact and carry on 'as if' you're still an in law relative? You might need to take the initiative when you're in the right frame of mind. Could be an idea to just send a text asking what they're doing and seeing if you could pop over to visit with your son? Principles here suggest keep DB with X's family, so keep that in mind.
Yeah, I think I'm going to join meetup then. There's a group called social singles which I looked at. Some of the member photos are interesting! Lots of earnest looking guys. Lots of differnet groups with different interests. I'm quiet too, with some quirky as well as mainstream interests, but I'm sure I'll find some likeminded people.
Thanks again for checking in on me. Cheers, DS
I am now following your thread. Can you share your "elevator pitch"?
I am now following your thread. Can you share your "elevator pitch"?
Cheers mate. Glad you're back on board with me. Appreciate your time and wisdom.
My pitch?
I'm a little over 10 months into my sitch now. XW told me she loved me and wanted to look at a house at lunchtime, and BD'd me when i got home with a made up argument (which I didnt know was a BD), then BD'd again a week later. She'd changed, her needs had changed, I hadnt changed, she's turning 50, I'm too negative, we don't communicate, I'm a great guy but not for her etc etc. Light switch went with her emotions, and I was the pariah. It was beneath my dignity to beg, plead or cry. I took it all with quiet dignity.
I researched and looked at what happened and thought MLC.
She has significant, unresolved childhood abuse, abandonment and neglect. I have abandonment issues too. Looking back, I actually got kicked out of her house several times early in the R when she blew up for no apparent reason, then apologised in a sense, and wanted me to come home. There was a lot of love, but very little respect for me. XW is the ultra alpha female, who needs to control things and have her way. I went along not only to get along, but becuase I liked her goals. Happy wife, happy life was our little joke together
The monstering followed, as well as the history rewrite, til I couldn't handle it and moved out for my own emotional health. I had resolved to be honourable and respectful throughout and carried myself that way with her.
I took ownership of my flaws, 180'd on what she expected me to do, went to IC (still going), reconnected with my step son, and tried to stay away from the sucking vortex she created after BD. Deep down, I'm acting 'as if', but working toward cementing my changes. Will power got me through a lot these last months, as does faking it til I make it.
I'm still struggling with detachment and understanding why it went wrong (analysis paralysis). I can't help it,as that's the way my mind still works, for now. It's getting better though. I'm a quiet, sensitive, smart guy, but not emotionally intelligent (but learning), and was naive about relationships. Some NGS characteristics, but very protective of my XW, and manly but sensitive, and a lion if anyone outside the family threatened us, kinda like the guy you describe who'll resolutely guide his W out of harms way without a second thought. Basically, the quiet, understated go to guy. Never communicated my needs, but had unmet and oftentimes uncommunicated expectations which frustrated me, and rarely put my foot down on respect issues, and never pulled her up on the lack of reciprocal assistance. Looking back, there was a strong codepency theme, and lack of self differentiation.I put her on a pedestal.
Til I came here, I had no idea about these concepts, or respect, or NGS, or boundaries. I thought that's what a good husband did. I've learned a lot. Thing is, I learn and understand, but have huge difficulties applying them to myself, plus I'm impatient, with the monkey on my shoulder still sometimes telling me "DS, dont bother, it's too hard or its not going to work". It is being addressed in IC.
I've baby stepped my way toward not being there for her for every need (huge 180), not communicating with her unless she initiates, being very businesslike and cordial, not reacting to her ups and downs, reconciling with my SS, and keeping a level keel for my S.
I have this forum to thank for the baby steps I've managed.
I'd like to say I've detached, that I'm not an NG anymore, that I can GAL like a madman, that I can easily put up boundaries etc etc, but I can't, right now. That's going to take time, and bouncing ideas and advice off this forum is going to help me get there.
Cheers, DS
Thanks.
Have you read "Rules of the game"? It is a must read (as well as doing the exercises). I like how on day one he speaks more about strong vs weak guys rather than "nice guys".
I am currently watching Peaky Blinders. Tommy has some really bad qualities, but he definitely has many quality male traits that we all should take up. There is a youtube video that points this out well.
Thanks mate,
I've just ordered Rules of the Game. Looking forward to reading it. Thank you for the suggestion.
I'm going to check out Peeky Blinders. I've watched a few Youtube channels analysing Don Draper from Madmen, and his appeal. Relating him to my personality, and what I've been told, the theme seems to be I have the 'gift of the gab', charm, wit, and present as 'a catch', but (from my own analysis) I'm let down by deep feelings of not being good enough, and not trusting my own sense of worth and value, and not taking a risk for fear of looking foolish, and just plain shyness.
There have been many times where after the fact someone had told me a particular woman liked me, wanted to date me etc, and even then I didn't believe it and didn't act on it (sometimes not acting was entirely appropriate). Heck, a couple of years ago my XW told me one of her colleagues who didn't know me saw me waiting across the road to pick up my wife from work, and yelled at all the women to come to the window and check me out!? I just felt embarrassed, laughed nervously, reassured her I was only interested in her, and my XW kept teasing me about it.
I think I need to be more sure of myself, and confident. I've gained a little of that, and will keep working. This is all NGS cr@p, I now know. Well, I went for lunch with a girl I went on a date with previously (we're now just friends). I took your cue R2C - instead of asking where and when, I just told her the day, the time I would be free, and where I wanted to go, if that suited her, and she agreed!
Cheers, DS
I'm let down by deep feelings of not being good enough, and not trusting my own sense of worth and value, and not taking a risk for fear of looking foolish, and just plain shyness.
We have all been there. Learning to face our fears head on is worth it.
I just checked out Don Draper. I have seen those videos before, just didn't know tie his name to them.
Hi all,
I went to my S's graduation last night. I felt anxious as XW would be there. I put on a positive vibe for my S, dressed in my ultra finery, and went through with it.
S showed me my seat and said they were pre-allocated to us. S showed her to her seat next to mine but XW made a protest at having to sit next to me, and went and sat next to a mother she knew a few seats away. S was disappointed and annoyed that XW was causing ripples, but I pretended nothing happened, said nothing, and read my evening program sheet. Frankly, I preferred not sitting next to her, but I wasn't going to cause a fuss if I had to, nor was I going to volunteer sitting elsewhere if XW didnt want to sit next to me.
The collection plate was getting passed round, but I forgot my wallet. I asked XW if I could borrow some money, whihc she gave me. SD turned and smiled and said lightheartedly 'you'll have to pay that back'. I laughed out loud, then said loudly and lightheartedly "Yeah, I'll pay it with interest". I just ended up buying everyone a drink.
For the rest of the night, I think XW stuck to this other mother as I could hear them chatting all the time. I did my own thing, focused on my S, spoke to other fathers and teachers, interacted with my SD, and when we went to another place, went to my own non allocated seat and enjoyed the evening.
We had photos at the end. Normally I'd hang back and just take a couple, but I was the first parent up to the stage to take them, and the last to sit back down. We then had family photos outside at the end. XW caused more ripples by loudly proclaiming to other people that they should walk around us (because we were blocking the footpath). I moved away from that, then when photos had finished, S and I bailed promptly, with a cheery goodbye and me asking SD to catch up soon again.
**************************************************
I had bought S some new uniform items recently because he'd grown, even though it was the end of the year and he'd only wear a few times. S was feeling self conscious. XW was refusing to buy these things. I didnt mention anything to her, I just got them, becuase I wanted S to feel good and look good. I told S to just come to me if he needs something, as mummy may be short of money. S said XW is an 'ultra cheapskate'.
******************************************************
I forwarded XW an email from school care for an overdue bill in her name. I worked out my share, then paid that into the old joint account we had, paid some extra money for my share of other future S expenses she pays for, and told her that in the email in businesslike fashion. Old me would have asked what our shares should be. Months ago, XW proclaimed that if I was putting S in care while she was on holiday, I would pay it all!?! Well, she didn't raise that, but paid her share, with a dig at the end expressing feigned surprise I hadn't paid it while she was on holidays, which I didn't reply to.
I remember the bitter battles I fought on XW's behalf with her XH about him contributing money to my step kids expenses, and the anxiety it caused her. At BD, she thought I'd be just like her XH about money, calling me a 'money hungry c@nt'. Being like her XH is beneath me. I told her I'm not like him, but she said words mean nothing, only actions matter. Well, I showed her.
Cheers, DS
You handled those speed bumps well, DS. Your integrity came through.
What's up with her embarrassing, entitled behaviour? I don't blame you for not wanting to sit near her.
It's interesting to hear your S's comments about XW and his behaviour towards her. It seems he feels more loyal to you?
Did S have any emotions about graduation? It's a big deal! Starting high school is a big transition; how are you/XW helping him cope with that?
Her comments about her XH and you acting similarly are not a reflection on you at all, so don't mind the comparison. It's her disordered mind repeating the same victimised thinking and blaming behaviour that likely led her down this path once before. She needs to do her own 180s to escape that cycle, or she'll revisit the same issues with husband number 3. Your last sentence is a little vindictive, but I understand the sentiment.
GAL plans this weekend?
Thanks Scout,
This behaviour is how she is. She doesn't care what people think. She oftentimes acts and speaks before thinking, and does what she wants. Very impulsive.
I think S may be more loyal to me. I am very mindful not to play any of those games with him, and to always speak highly of his mum.
S was very happy about graduation. He doesnt talk much about his feelings though. I keep reminding him that if he wants to talk about anything he can speak to either of us. also told him if he wants to speak to someone else we can do that too. He's very much like me in being sensitive and keeping his feelings in check.
Yeah, I know I shouldn't mind the comparison with XH, but it cut very deeply.
Yeah, does sound a little vindictive. I'm just demosntrating to her I'm not him. It's not just demonstrtation either, but also who I really am.
XW will never 180 these cyclical behaviours. She puts out that there's nothing wrong with her.
As to GAL, I've been invited to a nightclub/lounge in the valley Fri night by a female friend, so I'm not sure if I should go. I'll be doing some xmas shopping, housework and maybe shoot up to the sc or gc for some beach action. On Saturday I'm looking at a new car to buy. I'll probably venture to t k max as well to pick up some homewares and business shirts. Otherwise the usual fishing, morning/evening walks, heading down to the local bar/cafe for a solo dinner and drinks, gym training and reading/listening to self improvement stuff.
How about you?
Cheers, DS
Hi all,
Food for thought, and encouragement.
I had an interesting conversation with a man yesterday.
Turns out after a separation of 4 years, he's R'ing and piecing since early this year. No divorce, but they did the financial split a while ago.
Both mid/late 30's and young kids when it happened. It seemed she's a WAW and he got the standard ILYBNILWY, I've changed, history rewrite, etc against a backdrop of focus on work, the kids etc.
He said she started changing when he hit her up for divorce. There was some pressure from him to move back in together.
I've referred him to get the DB book asap and encouraged him to not put any pressure to move in and to do all he can to save his marriage.
I think the longest separation I've read here is about 10 years before R'ing and piecing.
Cheers, DS
you sound like you're doing good DS like you're taking the moral high road with Integrity I'm glad that you could be there for your SS. I swear the hardest part about all of this I think for all of us and all of our stitches is taking the focus off of them and putting it on us and the ones that care about us. A lot of previous memories and ideations all the way that they were to us Keeps us stuck emotionally and gives us setbacks and moving forward logically methodically with our lives. You are doing good in your helping the right people including yourself baby steps one day at a time. Make those goals measurable and tangible and measurable on a daily basis. Keep going
Hey ih thanks buddy really value the support and encouragement mate. It’s a frickin lonely path mate.
Yeah I’m helping ss with guidance and even taught him to iron the other night. We pumped iron then ironed haha 😂
Yeah focus shift is tough. She was my life. I thought i was meant to sacrifice myself for my wife and family. I was dumb and naive, trusting and loyal. Just gotta remember there’s women out there who are different.
Cheers DS
Hey ih thanks buddy really value the support and encouragement mate. It’s a frickin lonely path mate.
Yeah I’m helping ss with guidance and even taught him to iron the other night. We pumped iron then ironed haha 😂
Yeah focus shift is tough. She was my life. I thought i was meant to sacrifice myself for my wife and family. I was dumb and naive, trusting and loyal. Just gotta remember there’s women out there who are different.
Cheers DS
Hi all
Merry Xmas
I'm hanging out for 2019 to end. It was the year from hell. Should have read my horoscope back in 2018, given that this was to be a year of massive change!
What would have been our wedding anniversary passed the other day without mention. On that day, she left for a short o/s holiday with her friend. An odd choice, I thought, given it was to a country we both couldn't stand and vowed to never visit, but her friend loves it. The same friend who wanted me when XW seduced me, and whose sexual advances I politely and sensitively rejected, and who I’m sure was in xw’s ear before bd.
A few days before she left, she sms'd asking to have my son during my time. I imagine this is because she is on holiday when S was meant to be in her care. Anyway, I said no. She didn't respond. Old me would have agreed. I now communicate matter of factly and say what I want with parenting rather than asking. XW is compliant and uncomplaining. I don’t follow up or confirm. XW had S a few times though when I was at work. She asks if I’m picking him up but I ask her to drop him off, and she is compliant. Old me would have picked s up and not had the courage to ask her. I don’t use question marks but rather something like ‘I’d appreciate you dropping him off. Thanks DS.’
We hardly see each other now, nor communicate. XW's almost daily sms's with requests and info tidbits have dried up. The distance is growing, and I know that's a good thing for my emotional healing. I have no desire to communicate with her or see her. But, I do miss her love, and the good things she brought to our relationship.
Sd came over for dinner the other night and ss comes over once a week to talk and home gym. S and I visited mil the other weekend. She engaged in talk about XW and theory behind why XW did what she did but I am non commital and change the topic. I think mil is very sad about what happened.
I was invited by my SIL to xmas lunch. I agreed. I was subsequently told XW would be there as well. I decided to go still but arrived late. I wore my finest slim fit summer wear and looking good gives me a boost. I arrive and have a great pma. XW has a big smile and looks a little surprised. Sd and sil get a big hug and kiss from me and XW gets a generic but friendly hi. We don’t interact, other than XW piping in about mil when I speak about mil’s health, which I ignore. I’m engaging with everyone else and do my own thing.
She leaves early to go to work and summons son to get my gift which she gives me. I smile and thank her but bought her nothing so she got nothing. As she leaves she approaches for a kiss and hug. I lightly reciprocate the hug but deftly turn my cheek so she kisses my stubble and cologne. She got an air kiss. We were passionate and frequent kissers but that was a seeming lifetime ago.
I’ll get her a gift card and give it to her next change over.
GAL is up and down. I havent joined meetup yet, but will do so next year.
At R2C's suggestion, I bought The Game style life challenge by Neil Strauss. It’s a good read.
Anyway hope everyone had a good Xmas.
Merry Christmas DS
Our paths do appear to start out rather lonely. Slowly our focus moves from what we’ve lost, to what we still have, and to what we gain. Have faith, someday you will look back on all this and feel blessed. Keep up the great inner work, the discovery of your beliefs and convictions.
I did laugh at the 2018 horoscope foretelling - a year of massive change. They might have understated that a bit.
Season’s greetings, and best wishes for you and your’s. And let’s hope for a much better year.
DnJ
Thanks DnJ Merry Xmas to you and your kids too
Yeah I know one day I’ll look back and feel something but not sure if it’s blessed. Hopefully I’ll feel nothing. Maybe that type of thinking is something else I need to work on.
Cheers ds
Hope you had a good one DS.
I empathise with the sense that you felt you had to sacrifice everything for your spouse. I just thoguht that's what I had to do. How wrong I was.
Here's to a better year. Always forward, always strive to do the best, and smile more!
Thanks Dan. Yeah it’s about sacrifice and doing all you can to keep your lady happy. I know I shouldn’t but I still have that value. I don’t know if I’ll change but what I do know is I’ll make damn sure to establish what their notion of happiness is as opposed to what I think it is.
Anyway saw XW again the other day at changeover. Had just come from heading out for breakfast after a morning gym session so dressed up again in my summer finery. I waited at the door but XW seemed happy to see me and insisted I come in. Made a beeline for S and crouched next to him to interact with him but XW wanted me to sit. I declined. I was offered coffee but I ummed and ahhed saying I’d have one only if she did then told her how I take it. I then decided to sit down
I presented her with her nominal value gift card belated Xmas present and left it on the bench. It looked tiny and quite pathetic really, wrapped hastily, with one of those small to and from stickers. Old me would have wrapped it expertly with a large artistic card with a poem. I was surprised at her level of delight and repeated thanks. She grabbed me on the shoulder to thank me again and I simply said ‘pleasure ‘.
She asked what it was (really?!) and unwrapped it thanking me again. I told her it was a credit card with an unlimited credit limit and we had a laugh. She then eagerly wanted to show me clothes she bought for S and we cacked ourselves looking at the printed designs which she thought had been a colour dying error. She wanted me to see S’s refurbished bedroom but I said he’d sent me pictures already.
She told me of a couple of parenting things she’d been doing and I agreed and said I’d noticed the same and would implement. She asked about a school order I was handling and something else I said I’d handle too. I’ll make sure to hit her up for half the nominal expense.
She’d always made awful coffee and I’d had enough of it and didn’t want to linger so said I couldn’t finish it. I asked what she wanted me to do with the cup. She said leave in the sink (she used to hate anything in the sink) so I ignored that and washed the cup.
I hurried S to finish getting ready and looked for a place to sit as the couch had stuff on it. XW made to move the stuff but I just sat on the ottoman and sprawled out a la don draper, looking out the front door. XW said something I can’t recall so I leaned a bit back and answered. My shirt button nearly popped in the process lol
It was time to go, so with a ‘good bye girls, have a great weekend ‘ and a game of tennis request to Sd we left with out further adieu.
Hi all,
Hope we all survived the festive season.
Just an update on what I've been up to.
S and I spent an activity packed week together. Beach, craft/creative activities and so on, pretty much every day, much to his consternation. He just wants to stay home.
We visited with SD for a few hours and it was lovely. I used to be quite 'authoritarian' and a little distant with my step kids, but also supportive, protective and sometimes witty. I'm different now, with my natural wit and supportiveness coming back to the fore. I think I struggled with my place vis a vis my step kids. Early in the R, out of the blue XW told me she was watching me like a hawk around the kids. I felt hurt at the insinuation, and always kept that at the back of my mind.
I've been exercising my indoor creativity with indoor plants and other creations. Not really alpha male stuff, but I don't care as I like it and it keeps me busy. I think it's integrated male stuff - at my place you'll see tools, fishing gear, home gym and a sports car in the garage, then go inside and there'll be potted plants, ornaments, cushions and table runners!
I think I've used spending money as a crutch though and need to curtail and save more.
I've made some good acquaintances with the proprietors of the local bar. I often go down for a snack and a drink, as it's walking distance. We talk about cars and life. They're young fellows. Got to know the owner last night. He used to do what I do, so we related on that, and swapped stories. It was again gratifying to hear I look younger than my age! Turns out a lot of male customers who come in relate how they've been BD'd and blindsided in 2019.
Talked for ages with a young lady who was an acquaintance of the owner. Practiced my validation and eye contact, and enjoyed the intelligent conversation. I struggled with the millenial phrases though, and we cacked ourselves when a 'suggestive' phrase went completely over my head and it was explained to me. I was surprised she was only 21 when I found out. Young ladies these days seem to act and look older than what they are. Anyway, it was nice to be able to relate and laugh with younger people and spend a couple of hours laughing and talking. They're holding a singles night soon, so i'm looking forward to attending that and mingling with other cool people. I never used to go to bars or the like. Part of it was my NGS symptom of "I'm different, I'm not that type of guy". Baby steps.
XW popped round the other day at changeover. I was surprised when she knocked on the door, saying she was going to call, but decided to come up. I invited her in but she preferred to wait at the door, and I didn't insist. She launched into telling me the tremendous hours she's done at work, how busy it is, and the IT problems they've been having. I listened, acknowledged and validated, and kept it light and pleasant. She complimented my watch, asked if was a xmas present (even though I've worn it for months), then left with S after a mutual exchange of pleasantries.
Cheers, DS
Hi all,
Just seeking some advice and feedback, and venting a bit too, as this has been playing on my mind.
It's nearly a year since BD. Here in Oz, you have to be separated for a year before applying for a divorce. Divorce application is only in relation to legally ending the marriage, so its got nothing to do with property, kids etc, like I think it does on the USA
You can apply jointly for divorce, where you both must agree to relationship dates and facts set out in the document by ticking boxes, but there are questions that I'm not sure about how I feel in terms of reconciliation prospects and similar. Basically, each person would either tick yes or no to prospects of reconciliation and did you consider the marriage over at separation, and if not, when - its tick a box. There are things there which emotionally I don't know how I feel, nor am I ready to answer.
Doing it jointly though is so much easier and streamlined and means no Court appearance. The court appearance is brief and procedural in nature
Doing it solely means one person does it and puts their version of relationship facts, dates etc in there, then serve it on the other spouse, and the person doing it goes to Court for a very brief appearance.
My XW will no doubt be in touch and ask me to do the divorce application, as I know how to do it. She will likely want it to be joint. Months ago, I did all our consent property settlement legal documents.
I don't want to prepare the divorce application, nor do I want to join her. That said, I'm conscious of not standing in her way, and I don't want to hinder her if that's what she wants.
There's been some good suggested responses here on the forum about how to respond, but I just don't know what to say, and I want to be prepared.
I've been living my life since mid last year without any interaction with her aside from changeovers and a few family related events. If you know my sitch, there has been no relationship talk since BD, I've been cool, clam collected, no tears, begging, demands, snooping etc. I've tried to be like a ghost, apply DB, and acting with honour and respect. To an outsider, I think it would appear I have moved on. I've baby stepped toward a more assertive man, not subject to her whims or instantly available. As best I can, I have lived and conducted myself as being AMOAFWL, and I'm damn proud of how I've conducted myself in the circumstances I'm in
I took my vows very seriously though. I told her at BD, that out of all the billions of women on this planet I chose her and my love was unconditional including in accepting the things I wanted her to improve but she didn't. Her reply at the time was to scoff and say she's different to me and not traditional. I took my ring off a few weeks after BD becuase I had told her I accepted her decision and it felt awkward and weak and inconsistent for me to continue wearing it
Anyway, I just don't know if the response of "I want us both to be happy. You deserve to be happy. If the only way you can be happy is by getting divorce, I wont stand in your way, but I'm not drafting the Application' cuts it?
Can I get some thoughts please. Feeling a little lost about this. Thanks in advance.
DS9 I'm sorry I don't have any thoughts on your current situation. It does sound like things are settling down and you are really starting to explore your new life as a single. To be honest I am a little jealous.
My XW will no doubt be in touch and ask me to do the divorce application, as I know how to do it.
If there hasn't been any major conflicts with XW why not let her be the one to completely fill out the papers to be prepared? Why not let her do all the leg work as far as that is concerned. Don't hinder like you said but at the same time you don't need to be the one who does it.
DS9 I'm sorry I don't have any thoughts on your current situation. It does sound like things are settling down and you are really starting to explore your new life as a single. To be honest I am a little jealous.
Hey Roo. Good to hear from you mate. No worries as I know you've got a lot on your plate. Things have settled down a lot over the last few months as you've seen from my postings. I've still got a lot of internal work to do though.
If there hasn't been any major conflicts with XW why not let her be the one to completely fill out the papers to be prepared? Why not let her do all the leg work as far as that is concerned. Don't hinder like you said but at the same time you don't need to be the one who does it.
Yeah I absolutely don't wan't to do it nor will I. However, she will likely want to do the joint application becuase its so much easier procedurally, no Court appearance etc. That needs my input and signature. I dont know how I feel about some of the questions regarding when I considered the marriage over, my view on the prospects of reconciliation, and dont feel like I can answer them, but I would have to if it is joint application.
I suspect when I say I wont do the application, she'll want to know why. In answerign, I want to mitigate any suggestion in my response that I'm 'holding on' to the marriage, as that would be inconsistent with how I've been conducting myself
So, I'm a little stumped. I hoep that makes sense.
I just want to be prepared in advance to deal with it.
Woudl appreicate any thoughts from the vets.
Cheers, DS
Hey DS - thanks for popping in on my thread the other day. I appreciate all the help and support I can get.
I'm not really a vet only been 17 months in my sit, but I told my W that if she wanted D she could have it and I wasnt going to stop her, but that I was not going to do it for her because it was not what I wanted.
I only said this once. I meant it.
I agree with rooskers, I don't see why you have to do something you do not want to do.
Maybe honesty works here?
I have thought of this for my own sit sometimes - to be prepared for all scenarios. I have come up with something to the tune of - "I have changed my mind. I have decided I do not want to be present to file a joint application, but I will sign what I need to sign when you are finished with the paperwork."
If my W would ask why, I would say I don't want to / it makes me uncomfortable and reiterate that I will sign what I need to when I have to.
Stay strong
Good Morning DS
Your locale sound much like my province. Here a couple needs to be separated for at least one year before divorce paperwork can be submitted. Our paperwork sounds similar as well; it looks like a menu with all the tick boxes. And yeah, I also didn’t feel right about it.
In my situation, after the one year, I was served divorce paperwork. XW did it all, on her own. She didn’t contest the separation agreement, which can happen. So twice she agreed to no custody of the kids, no property, no pension, etc... From a legal point of view this is a good thing, she pushed all this through. From a personal point of view, well same thing.
Let your W do the heavy lifting. Do not fight her nor particularly stand in her way.
Here, two people agree to the separation, and if they don’t then the courts will decide and rule. Then only one of the parties needs to submit for a divorce after the time limit of at least that one year. The other cannot stop a divorce, just fight about the previous arrangements. Perhaps this is a similar possibility in Oz.
Your looking for what to say when/if this conversation happens.
In the past year you have done well keeping pressure low, no tears, no begging, no demands, and such. And conducted yourself in such a manner that you are proud of yourself. Excellent! Your path, your healing, and your growth is first and foremost for you.
To an outsider, I think it would appear I have moved on.
This is fear and self doubt talking.
It speaks to things deeper within you. Steps along you path yet to be taken.
DS, you need not move on, nor appear that you have. Show the truth - which is - you are not staying still. You are moving forward.
One can move forward while still standing for their marriage. Even post divorce.
So what to say and your feelings of being lost about this.
Focus back on you, not W. The LBS finds themselves when traversing this crucible of destruction. Finds their values and beliefs. Strengthens and creates the ones they want. Alters or discards the ones they don’t. And they become the best version of themselves.
Act and speak from that place. You do that, and no matter what happens, you’ve done your best and will have no regret.
You have questions and concerns about filling in divorce paperwork. Then don’t. Let her do the paperwork and you can get served. If that is possible where you live, go that route.
What to tell her. Truth is a good thing. You’ve read my postings so I’ll truncate. Truth and reality are very much in the eye of the beholder. Your W’s truth and your’s are different. You cannot find words that will alter her truth and reality, she can only do that.
For your truth, look to your beliefs.
Feelings influence thoughts, and thoughts influence feelings; rather quickly. Beliefs are influenced as well, but slowly.
Beliefs change slowly, and are therefore a really good guide for one’s life. Emotions are fleeting and temporary; one should not make decisions based upon feelings.
I understand you feeling lost. What do you believe? You’ve conducted yourself in a manner you are proud of. Find your beliefs and convictions. You are not as lost as you feel. Honest.
That is the truth I am speaking about. That deep belief of one’s values. And believe me (lol, such word play) it takes time to find, strengthen, and alter one’s belief system.
My advice. You don’t want a divorce, you have a separation agreement which she is abiding to, let her do what she wants (since she will anyhow). When unsure, just sit quietly and answer will reveal themselves.
I did re-read and see that your court system does serve you the paperwork if one only applies for divorce. That would seem to be a good option. When/if she asks to do paperwork jointly, you can decline. You don’t even have to explain why. Just politely decline and let her do whatever she is going to do.
A final thought for today. You control you. W controls W. I know you want a different outcome. Your musing and analyzing is normal as is looking for a way to manipulate things. Do not manipulate her path; she has steps she needs to take. Perhaps her path will lead her back, perhaps not.
I know you were asking what to specifically say. Actions speak much better than words ever will.
Find your beliefs and path. Continue to be a beacon, and move forward.
DnJ
Let your W do the heavy lifting. Do not fight her nor particularly stand in her way.
Here, two people agree to the separation, and if they don’t then the courts will decide and rule. Then only one of the parties needs to submit for a divorce after the time limit of at least that one year. The other cannot stop a divorce, just fight about the previous arrangements. Perhaps this is a similar possibility in Oz.
Your looking for what to say when/if this conversation happens.
DnJ
Hi DnJ
Thanks so much for your time and effort with these wonderful comments.
I do want her to do the heavy lifting with the application and will let her do the paperwork if that's what she wants to do.
Correct, can't stop the divorce. I don't intend to. I'll let it wash over me, unresistant.
Yes, I was looking at what to say. I want to be prepared. I am big on preparation at work.
This is fear and self doubt talking.
It speaks to things deeper within you. Steps along you path yet to be taken.
DnJ
This really hit home mate. Really.
I'm in IC since March, working on various internal issues.
The theme of "I feel like Im not good enough/worthy enough' just keeps coming back. My IC and I trace a behaviour, or a thought pattern, and distil it back down to the bare bones belief system from my childhood, and that's what my IC says it keeps coming back to, and my actions, behaviour thoughts etc are coping mechanisms based on that faulty belief.
Cheers, DS
Hey DS,
First, thank you for detailing the divorce process here in Oz. You said you are big on preparation - I am, too. The difference between us being that I am preparing to file the D paperwork myself, and will do so without reservation when the time comes in June. But I understand your thoughts completely.
Second, I’m so proud of the fact that you have never wavered in your DB stance and behaviour. That’s a huge achievement! I bet your W has gained respect for you for that, whether she would admit it or not.
Third, to your question. I suppose it depends how wedded (heh) you are to your beliefs and principles. Compare that to the ease of filing jointly and the relief you might feel upon having that chapter closed amicably, rather than ending with a contest. Would that go against the man you have tried to be or the relationship you’ve tried to foster with W over the past year? I don’t know the answer, but the question could be food for thought.
Let us know how you decide to proceed.
DNJ: I literally just said this on Jdevast post a few minutes ago. Either what I am reading here is really settling in. Or its really becoming a part of my actual internal belief system thanks to you guys. "Focus back on you, not W. The LBS finds themselves when traversing this crucible of destruction. Finds their values and beliefs. Strengthens and creates the ones they want. Alters or discards the ones they don’t. And they become the best version of themselves."
Hey DS,
First, thank you for detailing the divorce process here in Oz. You said you are big on preparation - I am, too. The difference between us being that I am preparing to file the D paperwork myself, and will do so without reservation when the time comes in June. But I understand your thoughts completely.
Pleasure. Check out the Fed Circuit Court website. There's a DIY kit. FCC is a cheaper fee.
Second, I’m so proud of the fact that you have never wavered in your DB stance and behaviour.
Thanks so much Scout. This means a lot coming from someone like you.
Third, to your question. I suppose it depends how wedded (heh) you are to your beliefs and principles. Compare that to the ease of filing jointly and the relief you might feel upon having that chapter closed amicably, rather than ending with a contest. Would that go against the man you have tried to be or the relationship you’ve tried to foster with W over the past year? I don’t know the answer, but the question could be food for thought.
I'm firm in not joining, prime reason of which is there are questions I'd need to complete that I don't have an answer to or even know how I feel about at the present moment. Old me would have gone along with what she wanted because I was conditioned to do that, and I wanted to please and not cause friction. There won't be a contest because I won't oppose it.
Anyway, I'm expunging it from my mind for now.
Cheers, DS
Hi all,
Need some help please in what to do.
XW wants me to take some stuff from our former rental storage shed where we had joint items. SHe took it over several months ago. She gave me good notice period. I took my items out months ago, and she kept hers there. I continued paying for a while after I took my items, then she took over paying. She's now moving stuff out to close the shed and asked me to check if I had anything else I could take. There were a few items I'd forgotten or didnt see, and I took. She found a few more, asked me to take them, and I did.
In clearing out recently, she found a couple more of my items, which I said I'd take, and some shelves she wanted me to take, which I said I wouldn't.
XW came back with telling me she couldnt take them as she didnt have space. I didnt reply.
A little while later, another long text to the effect that she doesnt want to be difficult, there's a lot of stuff in the shed she doesnt want or need, some of which I'd bought (true, but during the M, and mainly masculine items) and she'd be getting rid of as I didnt want them, that she knows our relationship is strained but trying to be amicable, she doesnt feel its fair I'm leaving the clear out of the shed to her, she feels she's helped me with our S during holidays and pick ups while I'm working, and if I cant compromise on this, it will obviously impact on our interactions.
Frankly, the shelves arent a big deal to pull apart and take - I just dont want them. I dont like the persisistance or mentionign that this will effect our interactions.
Any suggested replies?
Thanks heaps, DS
Sounds like a threat. Do what I say or I will make things difficult for you.
You don't have to do anything, but you have some options.
1. Tell her she's welcome to dispose of all remaining items herself
2. Ask her to split the cost of cleaners/removalists to handle above task
3. Offer to help her with above task
IMO, the shed became her responsibility once you stopped paying for it. Not your problem.
Hello DS
The way I see it. Used to be a joint shed with joint stuff in it. She took it over months ago and you moved your stuff out.
Now she wants to close it. She looks inside and see lots more stuff than she expected to see. She asked you if you could take some more of the “no-longer joint and her stuff” to lessen the pile. You took some. She looks further and suggests more items which you accepted.
The pile still being big she again suggests some more items from the already picked over pile and you draw the line at shelving.
XW doesn’t like being left with all the extra stuff. It’s all her’s from months ago.
She tries to play on sympathy that she just doesn’t have the room. You don’t reply.
Then a more direct threat. She doesn’t want to be difficult, but she’s going to be. She is pre-blaming you. She is pushing your buttons. Don’t take the bait.
Her bringing up that this will impact your interactions. Yeah, whatever XW!
Text her - “I’m sorry you feel that way.”
You already said you didn’t want the shelves or any more stuff. She isn’t asking for help cleaning out the shed, she is asking (more telling actually) you to take the stuff.
If someone needs to clean out a shed, and they need help, then they ask a friend, or in better times their spouse. You were fired from the role of husband and friends don’t threaten and coerce to get their way.
One would wonder where are her friends in all this.
If you don’t want to be that firm, you could offer to help her clean the shed out. As in carry stuff to her truck.
However, she needs to feel the loss of you. You are not around to help her anymore, separation/divorce tends to do that.
You do not want, or need, to fix her problems. She’s got to figure out her life. Bending to her will and threats isn’t going to win any points with her.
What would you do if one of your friends talked to you that. I bet you’d feel that you’re being used and would be looking at that friendship. It’s kinda like that here as well.
DnJ
A little while later, another long text to the effect that she doesnt want to be difficult, there's a lot of stuff in the shed she doesnt want or need, some of which I'd bought (true, but during the M, and mainly masculine items) and she'd be getting rid of as I didnt want them, that she knows our relationship is strained but trying to be amicable, she doesnt feel its fair I'm leaving the clear out of the shed to her, she feels she's helped me with our S during holidays and pick ups while I'm working, and if I cant compromise on this, it will obviously impact on our interactions.
H:"W, I understand how taking care of things can feel unfair and I appreciate you not wanting to be difficult and getting rid of the remaining items in the shed. I am sorry you feel us being amicable is straining our relationship. As far as parenting, I feel it is best that we are flexible when exceptions occur. I am always willing to Watch S if something come up for you. Regards, H"
Scout and DnJ,
Thanks so much for your input.
Scout, I like the options.
DnJ, you're so right mate with all the insight. Especially the 'her friends' bit. She said she left me in part to spend more time with friends, who she 'neglected'. Exactly - why arent they helping.
She actually asked me a few weeks ago to go halves with her in paying for someone to move the stuff, when she first planned to clear the shed. I thought about it and emailed her that I thought it best she arranged and paid for that herself. I even subsequently took another set of shelves I didnt really want
You said just reply with 'sorry you feel that way'
Do you think a reply like the following would hurt?
Sorry she feels that way and I understand where she's coming from
Saying I'll help with disposal of shelf if she pulls it apart, but setting a boundary where if she says she feels me not compromising will effect our interactions, then I feel controlled and like my previous assistance and compromise isnt being taken into account, then saying if she does it again I will not reply or act on the request.
Thoughts? Maybe too long and drawn out!
Cheers, DS
I think the message is far too long.
"Sorry you feel that way, XW. It's not my intention to negatively affect our interactions. I've already fulfilled my responsibility regarding the storage unit and items therein. Thanks for your understanding."
Hello DS
Maybe a little too drawn out.
I do realize, at least I think I do, what you want to get across. You want to address the attempt to control you by threatening future noncooperation by her. XW also slide in son and his care into the conversation in an slightly veiled threat about not helping out during holidays and pick ups. I would keep son out of your response. He is not part of this. No need to give credence or acknowledgement to her shifting of the focus. Stick to the shed.
I understand you wanting to set a boundary with her. She tries to control and threaten - you will not answer those messages. Actions speak loud my friend. Not engaging with her speaks volumes.
How about:
“XW, I’m sorry you feel stressed cleaning out your shed.
I also do not want to be difficult; I just don’t need any more shelves.”
If she persists in her attempted control then perhaps a formal boundary needs to be stated. Just know you can have a boundary without ever saying a word. For now, keep your response to the shed cleaning. If/when she escalates things, then deal with it. Who knows she may just hire someone as she was originally planning to do.
For what it worth:
...that she knows our relationship is strained but trying to be amicable
Trying predisposes one for failure.
XW “trying” is her looking for a way to be non-amicable.
“our relationship is strained and yet amicable” or “our relationship is strained at times but we are still amicable”. See the difference. How it sounds when “try” is not used. “Try” gives a easy way out - hey, I only said I’d try.
Hope that helps.
DnJ
DS doesn't it seem crazy that something as simple as shelving in the shed is such an issue. Can you see the manipulation in this whole thing? She even threatened future dealings with your S over the issue. DnJ also gave some very good insights as well.
“XW, I’m sorry you feel stressed cleaning out your shed.
I also do not want to be difficult; I just don’t need any more shelves.”
I am not against this but personally I would shorten it even more. I try to only say sorry when I really mean it and at this point are you really sorry for her when this should not be that big of a deal? If you say sorry too much it soon becomes worthless. I think she will read the "do not want to be difficult" as "yes he does or he would do what I say."
I would leave it at "I don't need any more shelves."
Just wanted to thank everyone who came on board for their support and help. I've taken everything in and will make a decision on my reply soon.
It'll be a year since BD in a couple of days, and I've kept it on the down low but emotions bubble up sometimes. In coming up with my reply, I was reviewing some old emails I sent to XW post DB and came across some pre-BD ones I sent. Poignant in remembering that nearly all the hundreds of them sent were to do with me doing something for her, chasing something up, organising something and the like. Even found a really really old one where I was handling a reply to her XH due to their toxic relationship, she was seemingly distressed and wanted to catch up for lunch, with me comforting her and letting her know I'd handle him. Yeah, I know, the WAS/MLC spouses rewrite history, and I'm fortunate that my sitch isnt as toxic as some, but it still hurts.
I'm not going to look at those emails ever again now. Like PM Dawn said - she's just one of those corners in my mind, and I'll just put her right back with the rest, thats the way it goes, I guess...
DS you are doing great. I am sure the one year anniversary of BD is definitely going to give you some strong emotions.
Thanks buddy - I try to - Lord how I try!
I appreciate the kind words mate
Hi DS
Haven't been on for a a while so just catching up.
I agree with others - think you're doing really well and handling things great. Good that you're asking for advice here. That whole business with the shelves is very odd. It's strange how WASs make such big issues out of tiny things.
My W was the same this week about a boiler service. We booked it September, the company kept postponing it. They moved it to this Monday. When they did, I texted W about it - must have been in November/December time, so she knew. I assumed W was in the house every Monday (she hasn't told me otherwise); I reminded her last weekend and she said she was out and 'hardly at the house anymore' and 'I need way more advance notice', then asked if Icould do a two hour round trip to let the service guy in! Nope!
Anyway, just wanted to reiterate what others are saying - keep it up!
The key to this discussion is you have many choices in how to respond.
One extreme is not responding. The other extreme too many words. Less words almost always has a better impact.
Normally I get all the words I want to say into my first draft. Then I edit out as much as possible. I try to stick to the point of discussion. Sometimes I have to address the other issues.
I like this:
"Sorry you feel that way, XW. It's not my intention to negatively affect our interactions. I've already fulfilled my responsibility regarding the storage unit and items therein. Thanks for your understanding."
I would remove these:
"Sorry you feel that way, XW. It's not my intention to negatively affect our interactions. I've already fulfilled my responsibility regarding the storage unit and items therein. Thanks for your understanding."
If she responds again, then "I am sorry you feel that way"
Even removing more:
I've fulfilled my responsibility regarding the storage unit. Thanks for your understanding.
if she responds. then "Sorry you feel that way. It's not my intention to negatively affect our interactions."
Good luck.
Hi all,
I replied yesterday afternoon. I kept it short - 4 short sentences one line spaced for easy viewing.
I told her I understood how its stressful and feels unfair to clean out the storage, that I appreicated she didnt want to be difficult and that she cleaned out the items in the storage, that I didnt want to be difficult either but simply didnt want the shelves or have room, and that I was sorry she felt things were strained and appreicayted she kept amicable despite her feelings.
No reply.
I think one would have come by now. I think that's a good thing I didnt get one. She almost always needed to have the last word. It also means I dont have to type my 6 word reply - I'm sorry you feel that way
Thank you to all my virtual DB friends who helped me - DnJ, Roo, Scout, R2C, Dan. It is crazy Roo how somethign as trivial as this assumes such gravity. When y ou live in a fish bowl though, a pebble dropping in the water assumes tsunami proprtions
It's one year since BD. I may type out how I feel, but not just now.
if she responds. then "Sorry you feel that way. It's not my intention to negatively affect our interactions."
Good luck.
I like all of R2Cs advice except I wouldn't say sorry.
I have been challenging myself to never say sorry, which means first I always must do what is right so I have nothing to apologize for.
I see all three phases as the same:
"I am sorry you feel that way"
"I can see why you feel that way"
"I understand you feel that way"
They are not meant as apologies. More to state that you heard the person, and possibly to show you have empathy for their feelings.
Apologizing and seeking forgiveness while changing your behavior is a whole different structure and tone.
"I am so sorry I hurt you. bla bla bla"
I’ll add some more to this discussion.
“I am sorry you feel that way.” Is an statement of validation, not an apology.
People get upset due to feelings not thoughts. Responding to their feelings (“you feel that way”) with a statement of your own feelings (“I’m sorry”) is acknowledgement and validation of them. Their feelings are true and real.
That usually defuses a situation really quick. How can someone fight you if you are agreeing with them.
The other part is, you most likely are sorry they feel the way they do. For if they didn’t feel upset they wouldn’t be making your life miserable, pushing your buttons, projecting upon you, etc...
It’s ok to have empathy for someone and still have boundaries. Saying your sorry for how they feel is not condoning their actions either. It is simply empathic validation.
In this particular instance W is acting on irrational emotions. She is not looking at the shed situation with a lens of logic and reason. Therefore attempting to reason with her is futile, it will be viewed as argumentative and end in - you never listen to me or some such.
She feels stressed and upset and wants to push back. She doesn’t want to face her consequences for her choices. So validate and empathize and go about your day. It’s not your job to rescue her nor fix her mess.
I feel sorry for her and I don’t even know her. I also hold her accountable for her choices and actions. One can do both.
DnJ
DS9, you've already gotten a lot of input on the storage situation but here's my take. Yes she "took it over" and you could take a hard line approach and tell her that it's her problem. But the storage did belong to both of you and contains items owned by each of you. And it seems pretty clear that there was a lot more in it than she realized and she didn't know what to do with it. She's reaching out to you for help, so help her. It's not going to kill you to be nice to her whether you want to recon or not. If you don't want any of it then tell her you don't but you'll help her clean it out, or offer to pay half of the costs of using a 3rd party to clear it out. Do it because it's the right thing to do, not because you have any expectations. This may be one of the last things you have to do "jointly" so might as well settle it as peacefully as possible.
Also I agree with Ovr, I am not a fan of saying you're sorry. "I am sorry you feel that way" sounds very dismissive rather than being validating, especially if a person uses it all the time as a standard response. A more validating approach would be "You sound angry about this, is that how you feel?" "Yes blah blah blah." "I see, I can understand why that would make you angry." Seek to understand her feelings and acknowledge them.
Hey AS
As always thanks for your feedback and support. I hear what you’re saying and certainly Food for thought and after reading your comments I actually felt guilt for not taking the shelves. But then I balanced that against all the things I’ve done for her post bd including paying for me that shed for months at about hundreds if not thousands of dollars after I’d moved my stuff out. I already took more than I wanted the other day, and stored her stuff in my place for a while ages ago when she was renoing too
I don’t think it was a cry for help knowing her. More like she didn’t want it after she moved all the stuff she’d been storing on it the last year. Or power and control.You see I was the guy during the M who when she called I came running - literally. I’d even reschedule booked client appointments to be the husband who placed his wife’s assistance and needs first. Classic ngs and I decided it needs to stop. She’s an opportunist and I learnt through this forum how to baby step my way out of that sucking vortex. Frankly i think her constant need for me to do things actually contributed to the low energy, negative and just tired stressed and anxious dude I became that she said at BD was some of her complaints about me.
I hear you about being nice but frankly I think I gotta stop doing that and just be cordial and business like and balanced with give and take. If it was a 180 for me to help then help then help some more then I’d be there but contuing to help then helping more would be perpetuating the same old narrative and I just gotta get out of that for my own good mate. I think it would’ve shocked her that I said no, which is probably why she pulled the stuff about parenting and reviewing her position on our relationship.
Hope that makes sense. Just wanted to do you the courtesy of explaining why I’m not going to take up your suggestion this time. Stick with me though and keep the wisdom coming my way please mate!
Cheers DS
Hey DS -
I kinda agree with AS here - I wouldn't go out of my way and bend over backwards to take care of the situation. But It could be a kind "final gesture" kind of thing. However, I understand why you feel the way you do.
Take care
Good Morning DS
You did fine with the shed and conversing with W. A nice 180 by the way. Looks good on you.
Trying to understand where someone is emotionally is an excellent way to interact with people. To understand their desires and connect beyond words.
There is a problem in trying to understand W’s emotions - she can’t understand herself so how can you. However it is deeper than that. It is that “sucking vortex” you spoke of. You need to get a handle on your emotions before attempting to get a handle on W’s.
This only applies to W. I’m sure you can interact with others relatively easy. I look at your well thought out posts and see evidence of such.
The problem is W can still manipulate you, and push your buttons. A step towards healing is to take back your power. To control you. I know from experience that at first we don’t know how to do that. It takes time to find your strength again, to find compassion. The phrase “I’m sorry you feel that way” is compassionate and validating. It is so you do not get dragged into a blaming manipulative back and forth with her. NGS is going to take some time to let go of.
I am big proponent of compassion and hope. Your healing is first and foremost. Find and follow your beliefs. That way no matter what happens regarding W, M, R, D you followed what is most important to you. That is key. No external force will grant you peace; you find it internally.
Peace exists within your beliefs, convictions, and values. Do the inner work. Discover what you believe in. Strengthen those beliefs you want, alter and discard those you don’t. Makes these changes permanent and for you. Be the best version of you.
All the advice, everything you do, is for your healing. You are the most important person in this equation. There are some things and advice that will sound and feel counterintuitive. Perfectly normal. It will be counterintuitive right until it’s not. It takes time to find our understanding and solid footing again.
Your healing and journey, in a kind and compassionate manner, is for you and as a bonus gives you the best chance at a new R.
You have a son that is ten. There are many more joint events that will be upcoming. This is not the final interaction with her.
Take your focus off her and place it upon yourself. Find DS, the kind and compassion DS.
W doesn’t need you rescuing her (her wants are a different story). She needs you being compassionately indifferent. And so do you.
DnJ
Hi DnJ
Thanks again for your further thoughts, and the vote of confidence in the way I handled the storage unit saga. Last week when I went to the unit, XW had left our framed wedding photo collage right at the entrance as you walk in. I assumed she left it for me to take. I remember all those years ago arranging the photos to be printed, picking out the best ones, and choosing a stylish frame that I thought she'd like, to surprise her with.
I didn't take the photos she left behind. The story behind them and the memories of that happy day are securely locked away in the part of my heart where I store hurt, disappointment, betrayal and memories of things that were but will never be again. I'll need to process that one day.
When I came back to get the rest of my stuff the other day, the photos had been moved. I hope that they serve her as a fond memory of the man I was, of love, commitment and the promises I made after BD to not be the man she feared I would become.
Your words about compassion, hope, healing and beliefs I take on board and will use to bolster my journey to becoming indifferent when finally closing this chapter. You helped me become less fearful of her reactions and emotions. Many months ago, I wrote to XW when she expressed being anxious, and I told her if her anxiety has anything to do with how she feels about me, then I would be there to listen. She has not taken that up, but if she does, I will be there to listen.
About validation, I do see "I'm sorry you feel that way" as a form of expression of regret or empathy for something happening or a feeling, rather than personally being sorry for what you've done.
Anyway, GAL has been pretty good.
S and I are still doing lots of arts and crafts type activities. S has started a new school and is growing more and more mature each day. We visited SD on the weekend for some activities and dinner.
MIL aksed us to come round for lunch but we couldnt make it, so will plan that for another weekend
My fitness regime continues with a vengeance in my twice daily walks and home gym commitment. I'm going to join a cross fit class or similar as it gets boring doing this by yourself.
I've become a bit of a horticulturalist and am proud of my indoor and outdoor plant achievements.
I've reconnected through FB with a girl I dated in high school, and dated again a few years after high school. We share an interest in plants, ancient architecture and cultures, and a calm, drama free laid back attitude.
I've heard some horror stories where some members here have posted all about their fantastic lives and new partners on FB, and how that invariably has become a problem in their sitch. I'm radio silent on FB, apart form the fact that pre BD I never used to post anything anyway. Why change now.
Hi DS
I hear you on the need to process all that someday. Don’t worry it’s getting there. Small steps.
Nice to see you and son doing all kinds of activities together. That’s awesome! And he is maturing right before your eyes. Yes, lots of changes coming up for him. Pretty soon he’ll be asking to borrow the car.
And gas money.
And movie money.
And snack money. LOL.
Good job on your fitness regime. I like the idea of joining a class; provides motivation and will keep boredom at bay.
I’m also a big fan of gentle and calm. A budding horticulturalist is a nice calming relaxing state of mind. Be proud of your plants and achievements. Two green thumbs up from me.
I’m not reading too much into what you said about reconnecting with girl from high school. I am guessing just friendly chatting and such.
A caution for you or awareness if caution seems to strong a word.
As indifference takes hold, your feelings for your spouse, or STBXW, become attenuated and stir less often. This creates a vacuum where once all the emotions about your spouse and feelings and anxiety once ran about.
Nature arbours a vacuum. Other feelings will seem larger than they really are, in an attempt to fill the void. This takes time to work through. Ride it out. Things do calm down again. After all they are just feelings; and feeling are fleeting.
However, feelings are very real. Infatuation, even a little bit, will seem soooo large during this time. It’s twofold - first the comparison to the void of indifference and your spouse hasn’t been paying any attention for sometime. We get a bit blindsided on two fronts. Hence the caution.
Indifference is a strange place. Harness the power of this place. Do your inner work; that processing for example. With far less feelings about one’s spouse, one can dig into themselves.
Find your beliefs and yourself. Indifference doesn’t last forever by the way. Or at least it didn’t for me. Your love for your spouse or ex-spouse does return. And if you’re healing, compassionate, kind, empathic, maybe even seeing some forgiveness - there is no pain. You’ll wake up one day and realize that you are in that place you so wanted to be in for so long. Healed and whole.
That of course is a bit of a journey. Processing and growing. It’s very much well worth it. It’s about you; and you are worth that effort.
Anyhow, just some awareness for you. I went through a stage of temptation. I didn’t act upon it. And looking back I was not ready to date, was still hurting too much.
Moving forward, small steps.
You’re doing fine.
DnJ
Hi DnJ
Yeah, my S is sure growing up. He's already started asking me to buy things, which I usually do. Unfortunately one of the by-products of my XW's MLC or whatever it is she went through is erratic cost cutting. She'll blow thousands on a holiday or home improvements, then scrimp on buying him something, or the other kids. I've told S to come to me if he needs something, as he's complaining about XW's cheapskate attitude.
Yeah, the girl from high school is just friendly chatting - escapism too, as she is going through divorce as well.
With indifference, I often compare this to my ex partner before my wife. We were in an R for about 2.5 years. I remember being very indifferent when it ended, even to the extent that I hoped she repartnered very soon so her new partner could look after her (she was quite ill and I became like her carer).
I'll have to keep rereading what you say about this as it isn't quite sinking in yet, but I hear what yo're saying.
Anyway, XW was in touch yesterday with a friendly thank you text for some pre-agreed things I did for S's school. Surprised me, as I thought she'd still be fuming over the shelf saga and be no contact for weeks. Like you said, I just gotta do what's best for me without fear of her reaction or thought, and do those things in a calm, cordial, consistent, logical businesslike fashion.
Thanks again mate for checking in. Cheers DS
Hi all,
I recently was inspired by DnJ to write a poem on his thread, and threatened to write another one if I took inspiration.
I'm a little rusty as I last wrote substantive poetry in high school over 25 years ago, apart from the short poems of love I used to write for my XW. Maybe I'll take it up again for GAL
I hope this one inspires us to remember that whilst the world crashes around us, the centre of our world is not what we thought, despite what we once felt it to be...
The winds of change echoed overhead,
Faint rustling in the trees.
We had some disquiet about the wind,
But misheard what it said.
As the wind slowly gathered pace,
We held their hand more tightly.
Signs of love emanated still, so we thought quite rightly.
That our love for them, would conquer all -
this wind is just a phase -
a passing breeze,
among the trees,
and our tree will never fall.
So we walk the path we've walked before,
Continuing arm in arm.
The wind picks pace, we shield their face,
never contemplating harm.
But trees with rotten cores do fall,
And love does not shield the heart,
Where in the moment of splitting wood,
everything falls apart.
We turn to look at our true love,
But our true love isn't there.
A different path they've taken,
whilst we were unaware.
The lightning struck whilst we had faith,
In a love that seemed eternal.
Vows of love mean nothing now,
be damned to hell, eternal.
But as we fall unto our knees,
Cursing at the wind,
We fail to see, what seems to be,
the forest for the trees.
See the forest lives, despite the tree,
'pon which we carved our love,
The splintered remains of promised vows,
crashed low from high above.
Yet as we labour with broken wood,
Whilst our true love wanders free.
We glimpse a truth eternal -
Our forest is not the tree.
Cheers, DS
Hi DS
Just wanted to say that you're doing really well. Like the poem too!
DS I like the poem and found it interesting how you used a tree to represent your relationship. I used something similar with D14 about our family being a forest and D14 said "she burned the entire forest to the ground and it is gone." I told her the death of one forest is the nutrients and soil for a new one. I also use to write poetry and took a couple of classes in college. D14 and I are thinking about starting some Bonsai in our home. We have a starter kit and I have been devouring youtube videos about it. I am hoping it will make the house look nice and provide me something calm and relaxing to do. You are doing great.
Thanks for that DS. It made me tear a little...as usual.
Keep DB man!
DS I like the poem and found it interesting how you used a tree to represent your relationship. I used something similar with D14 about our family being a forest and D14 said "she burned the entire forest to the ground and it is gone." I told her the death of one forest is the nutrients and soil for a new one. I also use to write poetry and took a couple of classes in college. D14 and I are thinking about starting some Bonsai in our home. We have a starter kit and I have been devouring youtube videos about it. I am hoping it will make the house look nice and provide me something calm and relaxing to do. You are doing great.
Hey Roo
Nice to hear from you buddy. Glad you enjoyed the poem. I chose the tree and a forest as metaphors for our R/M and the forest being our lives. That was an excellent metaphor you used with your daughter. I find my way of thinking and understanding is very metaphor driven.
Hope you get back into poetry mate. I used to write and freestyle rap songs as a kid and teenager, so got the hang of rhyming there.
It's so uncanny you mention bonsai! I was in the plant nursery yesterday and was choosing some to buy. I make terrariums, so was going to make one with bonsai. Check out Kokedama and Japanese terrariums. You could even make a fish tank with your daughter too. I get large (about 10 litre) glass bowls/cylinders and use these. You can have a beta fish/siamese fighting fish without need for a water aerator. If you plan on using dead wood as decoration, I get mine from the sea shore as it's very interesting to look at. Make sure you soak in fresh water for at least a day to leach the salt out.
Have fun!
Thanks for that DS. It made me tear a little...as usual.
Keep DB man!
Hey Nef, no worries mate. Sounds like it struck an emotional chord with you. It was emotional writing it that's for sure.
Yeah mate, I'm going to keep DBing. I just got to stay the course and hold firm.
Cheers DS
Hello DS
I love the poem. Well done.
Methinks something is coalescing within. Inspired writings, especially poems, have their wellspring from deep inside. Let it flow. Find the pure sweet source.
May the river of your inspiration feed the forest of your life.
DnJ
Beautiful words DS. I also find that crisis has sparked my inner literary self. May we all become great poets through this journey.
Thank you DnJ - glad you enjoyed it. Thank you for the inspiration. I may never have thought of this if I didn't read your thread.
Thank you Wooba - I'm grateful for the compliments and look forward to reading your work if you decide to share it with the forum.
I've written something else. I was reminded of when I left the home all those months ago. I think this one captures how I felt at the time when I shut the door for the final time upon leaving...
One last time we close the door,
As we turn our back to love,
And emotions flood our senses,
Recalling happier times before.
The door was opened many times,
To warmth, to love, to life.
But the door is locked, and all that's gone,
Cut out coldly with a knife.
The rush of steps, a warm embrace,
Now sand between our fingers.
Deep brown eyes, an elfin face,
Fond recollection lingers.
Where hands once touched,
They now recoil.
Dark eyes of a stranger stare,
Cutting words are all that's left, and permeate the air.
And one last time we close the door,
To that which was, now gone.
Whispered memories of "Ti amo",
Clash with hope, forlorn.
Descending stairs, we look outside,
And all else seems the same
The sun still sets, the moon will rise,
Parallel universe in frame.
The door clicks shut, lock slides in place,
Just as we turn around.
The key, once freely given,
Now nowhere to be found.
Head bowed low we leave this place,
Of contradicting plot.
That which was will never be,
And what it seems, is not.
The door, the key, the stairs, the sun,
All conflate in our mind.
Confusion reigns and anarchy rules,
In the land of left behind.
Sometimes there is no answer,
As to why they closed the door.
And even if there is one,
It hardly matters anymore.
For us who walk the lonely path,
In the land of left behind,
There is one truth worth noting,
To which I will remind.
The key one needs is still nearby,
So close, but what to do?
Search yourself, until you find,
The key to cut is you.
The key they took is lost for now, their door is just too far,
They may come one day,
If they find their way,
And you leave your door ajar.
Cheers DS
Good Morning DS
“The key to cut is you”
That line captures so much.
It’s amazing how much we feel and can experience surrounding a moment. Well done putting it into such flowing words.
DnJ
“The key to cut is you”
That line captures so much.
DnJ
Thanks mate. Appreicate the kind words. I'm actually working on two more poems at the moment.
Anyway, life for me chugs on.
Saw SD over the weekend for a catch up and some tennis and dinner. Lots of questions about what I've been doing, who I'm going to places with, and the one I've been dreading - are you in a relationship. I said I'm just focussing on myself at the moment.
Anyone here have step kids to their ex spouse? How did the relationship with the step kids go? How did you handle these types of questions?
Thankfully, no pushback whatsoever from XW since the storage shed saga and the veiled threat. Havent seen her lately, but there's been a few texts asking if I wanted other minor things, which I replied with a short 'no thanks'.
Lengthy sms from her about another holiday, this time with S. There was no question, so I didn't respond. I sms afterwards with a request for her to do the changeover. Immediate response, indicating she always does, and a smiley face - haven't seen one since I can remember.
No mention of divorce incidentally.
I still see myself as the ghost - the metaphor I posted some months ago - I'm there in the shadows, always there for the kids, for the family, but not (unconditionally) for her.
I'm buying a new mountain bike with dual shocks, as I'm getting into off road riding and mine is a hardtail. I like the Scott Spark 960. Or maybe a Polygon?
I finally joined Meetup a couple of days ago, in a singles group. There's a Valentines Day singles party which I'll be attending. I'm actually excited. A dress in pink theme, so lucky I've got some pink shirts I can wear - matching pink slacks would be too much.
Gotta keep DBing, taking the high road, and being the machine til it becomes natural. I heard Landslide come over the store radio when I was shopping the other day and felt emotional, so I know I'm not there yet. Landslide was the song she kept playing after BD.
Hope everyone is doing ok.
Thanking everyone for their continued support and lending an ear.
Cheers DS
Anyone here have step kids to their ex spouse? How did the relationship with the step kids go? How did you handle these types of questions?
If I remember your step kids were older so I would error on the side of truth. You don't have to give them all the details of your life but you can be truthful and answer each question. You seem to be a great person and really working on becoming the best "you" possible, so showing and telling this to your step kids will only get back to W and reveal what she lost. Why did you dread the question on whether you were in a relationship or not? I thought your answer was perfect.
Gotta keep DBing, taking the high road, and being the machine til it becomes natural.
I may be thousands of miles away but I am cheering you on. I believe in you.
I heard Landslide come over the store radio when I was shopping the other day and felt emotional, so I know I'm not there yet.
I am not sure I ever want to be there. This to me is what makes me different than my XW and shows that I can truly love. I want to feel emotional but not be overwhelmed by it.
Saw SD over the weekend for a catch up and some tennis and dinner. Lots of questions about what I've been doing, who I'm going to places with, and the one I've been dreading - are you in a relationship. I said I'm just focusing on myself at the moment.
Anyone here have step kids to their ex spouse? How did the relationship with the step kids go? How did you handle these types of questions?
That was a great response. If you do start dating then don't lie to him, but don't gush on and on about your new GF either. Despite your W not wanting you, she will likely become extremely jealous if and when you start dating. She may very well try to block you from seeing her kids just to spite you. So be very careful about disclosing dating info to her or the kids.
I still see myself as the ghost - the metaphor I posted some months ago - I'm there in the shadows, always there for the kids, for the family, but not (unconditionally) for her.
Perfect! Being invisible is the goal. No positive vibes or negative vibes, just no vibes, like you're not even there. You're removing yourself from the equation so she can A) figure out maybe you're not the problem after all and B) start to miss you.
I'm buying a new mountain bike with dual shocks, as I'm getting into off road riding and mine is a hardtail. I like the Scott Spark 960. Or maybe a Polygon?
Sounds like a great GAL activity!
I finally joined Meetup a couple of days ago, in a singles group. There's a Valentines Day singles party which I'll be attending. I'm actually excited. A dress in pink theme, so lucky I've got some pink shirts I can wear - matching pink slacks would be too much.
Yes, too much on the pants
Don't go jumping into a new R too quickly, but do go have fun and enjoy yourself and mingle and flirt and start getting your mojo back!
If I remember your step kids were older so I would error on the side of truth. You don't have to give them all the details of your life but you can be truthful and answer each question. You seem to be a great person and really working on becoming the best "you" possible, so showing and telling this to your step kids will only get back to W and reveal what
Yeah, they're older - early 20's.
I suppose I was dreading the question because I never thought I'd have to be in a position where I would have to answer something like that. The step kids knew I was always going to be a rock for them despite the sometimes tempestuous ups and downs we had, and they always knew that I was their step dad no matter what. I suppose it just felt weird being asked that question.
Gotta keep DBing, taking the high road, and being the machine til it becomes natural.
I may be thousands of miles away but I am cheering you on. I believe in you.
I heard Landslide come over the store radio when I was shopping the other day and felt emotional, so I know I'm not there yet.
I am not sure I ever want to be there. This to me is what makes me different than my XW and shows that I can truly love. I want to feel emotional but not be overwhelmed by it.
[/quote]
Thanks man, it means a lot that you believe in me! I'm gonna keep being the DB machine til I die!
DB skills are life skills too I feel. Going through my sitch, and what I've learned here with all these great people, is that the education system needs to give serious consideration to teaching our children communication skills, and basic psychology/self development/personal improvement skills as well. I knew nothing - not only did I know nothing, but I was taught through my own experiences as a kid all the wrong things about emotions, reactions, sub conscious behaviours, and all those other things that shape how we are as adults.
Haha yeah I do get emotional over songs and most movies! What I meant was the feelings that that song stirs in me.
That was a great response. If you do start dating then don't lie to him, but don't gush on and on about your new GF either. Despite your W not wanting you, she will likely become extremely jealous if and when you start dating. She may very well try to block you from seeing her kids just to spite you. So be very careful about disclosing dating info to her or the kids.
Thanks AS that's wise advice - I'll be mindful of that. Frankly, I think SS would welcome me finding someone. He told me a few months ago I deserve someone better than his mum, and he hoped I found someone.
[quote=AnotherStander]
Don't go jumping into a new R too quickly, but do go have fun and enjoy yourself and mingle and flirt and start getting your mojo back!
That's exactly what I plan to do. Have some fun and mingle with other people. Haha mojo! Yeah, I'm getting there.
Just checking in DS and hoping things are going great for you.
Hey roo thanks for checking in buddy it means a lot to me. There’s been a few developments some good some bad, which may be a blessing in disguise. I’ll update more fully and come back to your thread as soon as I get a chance. Cheers ds
Hi DS, just checking in and seeing how you're doing. Catch up soon.
Hi all,
Thought I'd better update. Guys, thanks again for checking up on me - my DB brothers!
What's been happening?
I went to the Meetup thingy and it was boring. I got some messages after the event from ladies I didn't know were there who wanted to meet me, but they were too young for me so I politely declined. In the face of this interest, I still struggle with realising my worth, but I'm getting better and tell myself I'm a high value guy with a lot to give. Frankly too, I'd been thinking about an old flame I'd reconnected with online.
I think I mentioned that I reconnected online with a lady I dated in high school. She was my first girlfriend and my first kiss - indeed the first girl I fell for when i started at my new high school. We discovered each other again by accident a few years after high school, and dated for a few months, til she let me go and drifted away. We were so young still.
We went on a couple of catchups over the weekend and finally met each other IRL. It was a revelation. She hadn't changed from all I remember of her all those years ago. She is shyish, highly intellectual, creative, understated, elegant and slightly left field, without artifice or false bravado. We stayed out til early in the morning both times (and frankly could've spent hours more together), catching up on our lives. She talked, I listened, which is the way I like it anyway. Turns out she had thought of me a lot since we last saw each other 20 plus years ago, and was so thrilled when we reconnected online. I got the sense she had never quite expunged me from her life. She also remembered my 'floppy hair' and the unique hi top shoes that I wore as I got on the school bus the first time she ever saw me! She still has the smouldering eye roll she gives when I compliment her, which I remember from all those years ago too. There was a connection. So many similarities, the most bizarre being the very obscure songs we both love (and I mean obscure!).
The intellectual attraction is huge, as is the physical. Anyway, we went out twice, and I felt no discomfort in letting her pay for some of the food and drinks (thanks R2C). We're catching up again in a fortnight, as we live a little bit apart and logistics with kids. We're also planning on attending some cultural and comedy events together.
The universe works in strange ways, so let's see what the universe plans with this one (3rd time's the charm?). I believe things happen for a reason. Everything's Zen. I'm allowing myself to be happy and not feeling guilty about it. Thoughts?
I've been made redundant at work. I've decided I'm going to take some time off before I get a new job. I wasn't entirely happy with my line of work. I am good at it, but the grind of doing it for so many years wears you down mentally. Maybe I'll do something more creative and artistic, or something different. It's not just about the money, is it. Who knows, I might even talk further with the guys down at the local craft bar about their informal offer to buy into a share of same - pouring craft beers whilst dispensing sagacious counsel might be just the change I need haha!
I haven't seen much of XW - maybe twice in the last few weeks. She was at my home the other day dropping my son as I arrived from work. She gave me a big grin as she left, waving, which was nice. The next day though she was angry, calling me to see when I was coming home and ranting as her remote for my my garage wasn't working and they couldn't get in (my son stayed with her during the day as he was ill and off school, organised between S and XW). I listened calmly and told her I understood how she felt, was sorry she felt that way, and appreciated she had our S for the day. I stay away from the unpredictable vortex and dispel the hold she once had.
My MIL called me a couple of times wanting to see how I am and to catch up for lunch. Her talk turned to XW. Turns out they're still not on speaking terms, though I thought they'd patched things up. I feel as though she almost wants me to join in criticising my XW's decision and what she's doing and venting with her, but I don't engage - just listen and validate.
I've been invited to a river boating thingy with some buddies in May so that'll be good. Tennis is still on my radar and I'm getting better, and played with SD again recently. Got my new mountain bike, and going to see a concert in April with my favourite 90's alt rock groups. Home gym is going well and I'm happy with my strength and physical changes.
Cheers DS
Sounds like you're doing awesome! Nice job on not letting your XW draw you into a fight, great job of validating and diffusing the situation! Good luck with the new lady, she sounds like a good contender
Thanks AS
I'm feeling quietly confident about my future.
Thanks for the good luck wishes. She is mate, and if I'm to be brutally honest with myself, there was probably always an ember there as I knew deep down there was unfinished business with her, but I would never act on it due to my values. Also, she is actually the only contender now. I've closed all other avenues to other women being in contention as I want to see how this develops - it's just my style of doing things and part of my value system and honour code.
Thanks mate, DS