New to the forum, so forgive me not using the right terminology.
Quick recap, we met in Church, dated 9 years and married 20. Have 4 girls (18, 16, 13, 5). I've been increasingly travelling more and more and have been away from home too much, my wife took on all of the burden of the kids, the home and paying the bills (which caused some big financial problems I had to resolve over and over).
I've felt her distant from my the last 2 years, first she wouldn't say "I love you" just "me too" when I would say it. And last year she wouldn't even respond. We had some issues with the house that I was resolving and put that in the backburner and didn't address it on time.
I've been wanting to talk to her about our issues for a while and finally had the chance more than 2 months ago. She told me "I haven't loved you for 6 years (very specific), we don't have a relationship and we should get divorced". I reacted extremely emotionally and did all the "dont's" you are all aware about. She said it was better for the kids, I can find somebody better for me, etc. etc.
Weeks later I got served divorce papers, and we have mediation coming up in about a month and a court date later in December (merry christmas).
I've made some changes myself, stopped the travel, took on the task for driving the kids around ... at first she resisted and felt that I was taking over what she's been doing, but now she relies on it. She leaves every other weekend to stay at a friend's house, that hurt like hell but lately I've accepted it and given her her space.
Anyways, I've been trying to focus on myself, try not to be sad all the time (hard) and not engage her in direct conversation about the relationship. However yesterday she had an accident (very minor) because she was texting me and driving (talking about the divorce :-/). I asked her if she was ok, she wouldn't answer ... she would just tell me "your car is ok", "your car is ok". When I got to the scene of the accident she was cold and distant, she got back on the car at the end and started crying. I got in the car, sat next to her to calm her down she kept telling me (not yelling) to leave the car.
Last night we talked about many things, and I asked her why she wouldn't tell me how she was doing it. That I was genuinely worried about her, and that no matter what is going on we should expect to care for each other being ok. She told me I didn't care how she was in the past, and gave me several examples. And here's the main issue, she has a lot of hurts ... many legitimate, many somewhat exaggerated, and she cried a lot but I felt it was positive to talk about them for me to listen and to acknowledge her hurt and my part in causing it. I did wait and explained a bit why some of the things she mentioned happened, without making excuses. And she listened.
So all the techniques here are about detaching, giving space and distance, and I get that. However, I'm running out of time and I feel like I have to keep finding opportunities to connect with her somehow, specially emotionally. If I just detach and not engage her enough, I feel like I'm just going to run out of time and there'll be no way to stop this divorce.
Last night she told me she wanted to be with somebody that wasn't 50/50 , 20/80 but 100% ... I really want to see how I can show her and make her feel that that person can be me. She did at least recognized I've made changes, but said it took her filing papers for me to change.
Any thoughts?
I am pasting in Cadet's Welcome Thread for you to read.
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Me-65, D32,S31
Hi Augusto
Sorry you find yourself here mate. How are you coping?
I see that as a good sign that she's listening to you (the last night talk) and you're validating how she feels. Check out the 5 love languages on google. Don't initiate R talks. You're there to listen and validate if she initiates.
I think your one month timeline needs to be reconsidered. The divorce, if she goes through with it, is a formality, a mere sheet of paper in the new greater scheme. What is important is that you lost her heart, and getting it back is the focus, not trying to do as much as you can in the next month trying to stymie the divorce. The journey you are on will take months if not years. Do not rush things over the next month and in doing so, stuff up your chances. Take your time. Consistency in 180's and time and patience is key. Babysteps.
She is a different person for now. When she kept telling you to leave the car, is that the same woman you married? It's not.
No doubt some of the veterans will be here shortly to give some sage advice.
Good luck mate. Cheers DS
Hi Augusto,
I've felt her distant from my the last 2 years, first she wouldn't say "I love you" just "me too" when I would say it. And last year she wouldn't even respond. We had some issues with the house that I was resolving and put that in the backburner and didn't address it on time.
I feel like I'm just going to run out of time and there'll be no way to stop this divorce.
I'll second what DS9 said. Your wife says she hung in for six years, at least two years beyond when she could say, "I love you." I wouldn't expect her to turnaround in 1 month. I wouldn't expect her to stop the divorce. If you want a second shot with the mom of your kids, settle in for the long haul like she did.
Has she talked at all about a timeline for moving out?
I've made some changes myself, stopped the travel, took on the task for driving the kids around
A good start, making positive changes to yourself.
she has a lot of hurts ... many legitimate, many somewhat exaggerated, and she cried a lot but I felt it was positive to talk about them for me to listen and to acknowledge her hurt and my part in causing it.
Nice! Listening, acknowledging, and admitting fault when true and truly felt is all good.
I wish you well. I hope you post often and reach a happy ending of some sort.
Sorry you're here Augusto. I remember last May being right where you are and thinking I just had to show her something to stop the divorce. The best thing you can show is your back as you walk your own way.
Believe nothing she says and only half of what she does. Drill that into your head. Not everything she says requires a response.
So all the techniques here are about detaching, giving space and distance, and I get that. However, I'm running out of time and I feel like I have to keep finding opportunities to connect with her somehow, specially emotionally. If I just detach and not engage her enough, I feel like I'm just going to run out of time and there'll be no way to stop this divorce.
What do you think is the one action that would show her, that would change her mind for good?
I don't believe there is one.
I recommend LRT:
1. Stop pursuing (like asking her how she is doing)
2. GAL
3. Wait and see
Last night she told me she wanted to be with somebody that wasn't 50/50 , 20/80 but 100% ... I really want to see how I can show her and make her feel that that person can be me.
Try validating. That means putting yourself in her shoes a little, or least accepting that she feels that way. Say "Yea, I get that" or add to it if you're more wordy than I am.
Let go of her exaggerations and rewriting history, it's normal and you can't change it anyways. Read here and post here.
Thanks for all the advise, I wish I had found this forum months ago!
Yesterday I got home around 7pm, my wife was sleeping in the couch with her meditation/relaxing music in the background. She was completely drained, I think it had to do with our discussion the night before maybe also the scare of the accident. I tried my best to get the kids to leave her alone so she could rest, she slept all the way through until this morning. She was going to cook something but I got everybody pizza and wings so she wouldn't have to worry about anything.
This morning she was her usual distant self, I did get a chance to wish her a good day and she responded. Touched her back, she didn't move away as she sometimes does. Not reading too much into that, but her reactions are not always consistent.
Tomorrow will be interesting because its halloween. Not sure if we're going to walk with our 5 year old together or if she's going to ask me to just go with her by myself.
This weekend is her "weekend with the kids". I usually stay around the house, but I'm thinking of making myself scarce and do something fun. She's kind of taken advantage of me on those weekends by asking me to stay with the kids while she goes to do something else. Sunday is one of our daugther's birthday, so no idea what we'll do. The awkwardness continues ...
Touching her back is pursuit. She has told you she doesn't want to be with you. By pursuing, she thinks you haven't really heard her plus she keeps you as plan B. Are you worthy of someone's primary attention, or are you happy with being a plan B? Which mindset do you think is more attractive to women?
By trying to close the distance it appears that she keeps moving further away. You can't catch her no matter how fast you run, she has to want it. Plus, don't you want her to want you?
I wouldn't ask her about Halloween, just tell her your plans and that she is welcome to come along or not. Leave it at that.
If this weekend is her weekend, then you should definitely get out of the house and get busy. Make plans with friends for the evenings or even solo if you must. Let her feel the reality of the choice she is making. Don't stand in the way of the consequences of that choice. Don't be rude. Be kind but treat like the cashier - polite, but brief because you have other things that are deserving of your attention.
New to the forum, so forgive me not using the right terminology.
Quick recap, we met in Church, dated 9 years and married 20. Have 4 girls (18, 16, 13, 5). I've been increasingly travelling more and more and have been away from home too much, my wife took on all of the burden of the kids, the home and paying the bills (which caused some big financial problems I had to resolve over and over).
I've felt her distant from my the last 2 years, first she wouldn't say "I love you" just "me too" when I would say it. And last year she wouldn't even respond. We had some issues with the house that I was resolving and put that in the backburner and didn't address it on time.
I've been wanting to talk to her about our issues for a while and finally had the chance more than 2 months ago. She told me "I haven't loved you for 6 years (very specific), we don't have a relationship and we should get divorced". I reacted extremely emotionally and did all the "dont's" you are all aware about. She said it was better for the kids, I can find somebody better for me, etc. etc.
Weeks later I got served divorce papers, and we have mediation coming up in about a month and a court date later in December (merry christmas).
I've made some changes myself, stopped the travel, took on the task for driving the kids around ... at first she resisted and felt that I was taking over what she's been doing, but now she relies on it. She leaves every other weekend to stay at a friend's house, that hurt like hell but lately I've accepted it and given her her space.
Anyways, I've been trying to focus on myself, try not to be sad all the time (hard) and not engage her in direct conversation about the relationship. However yesterday she had an accident (very minor) because she was texting me and driving (talking about the divorce :-/). I asked her if she was ok, she wouldn't answer ... she would just tell me "your car is ok", "your car is ok". When I got to the scene of the accident she was cold and distant, she got back on the car at the end and started crying. I got in the car, sat next to her to calm her down she kept telling me (not yelling) to leave the car.
Last night we talked about many things, and I asked her why she wouldn't tell me how she was doing it. That I was genuinely worried about her, and that no matter what is going on we should expect to care for each other being ok. She told me I didn't care how she was in the past, and gave me several examples. And here's the main issue, she has a lot of hurts ... many legitimate, many somewhat exaggerated, and she cried a lot but I felt it was positive to talk about them for me to listen and to acknowledge her hurt and my part in causing it. I did wait and explained a bit why some of the things she mentioned happened, without making excuses. And she listened.
So all the techniques here are about detaching, giving space and distance, and I get that. However, I'm running out of time and I feel like I have to keep finding opportunities to connect with her somehow, specially emotionally. If I just detach and not engage her enough, I feel like I'm just going to run out of time and there'll be no way to stop this divorce.
Last night she told me she wanted to be with somebody that wasn't 50/50 , 20/80 but 100% ... I really want to see how I can show her and make her feel that that person can be me. She did at least recognized I've made changes, but said it took her filing papers for me to change.
Any thoughts?
Why do you say you are running out of time? I either of you dying? If you mean because of the D, you need to stop thinking of the D as final. If R is in your future with her, it will not matter if there is a D or not. We've seen many a LBS come here that were terrified of the D progressing. That is out of your control. It takes two to make a marriage, only one to get a D. So continue to focus on you. Cement your 180s. Detach in a loving way (really learn what this means, because so many think it means things it does not). And make sure you are filling your time with lots of good GAL activities to keep your mind off of things and to stay busy.
Make her do the heavy lifting for the D. Don't do anything that you are not legally obligated to do.
D is a step in the process. It is not a finality.
Oh and read, study, and learn sandi's rules. I kept a copy on my phone so that I could read them multiple times per day. They are golden!
It's so sad, I don't even know what to do this weekend. I found a divorce support group at church, but the average age is way higher than mine, not that it's bad but was hoping to find more people around my age. Maybe I'll catch a movie.
I have stuff around the house I could do on Saturday, but I really think I need to get out more so I'll have to improvise.
Tomorrow will be interesting because its halloween. Not sure if we're going to walk with our 5 year old together or if she's going to ask me to just go with her by myself.
I wouldn't ask her about Halloween, just tell her your plans and that she is welcome to come along or not. Leave it at that.
I can't even think beyond Halloween--costumes, decorations, treats, friends, parties--oh my! I'm with ovrrnbw, in that this is D5's big day and it's great both your visions of the future include enjoying it with her. Your wife can join or sit out as she likes. I'd only give up Halloween if part of some holiday time-sharing deal--e.g., she gets Halloween, you get Thanksgiving. I've been divorced 8+ years and never missed Halloweens.
As much as you can--it's hard, it's so so hard--get into the fun and magic of the night!
Why do you say you are running out of time? I either of you dying? If you mean because of the D, you need to stop thinking of the D as final. If R is in your future with her, it will not matter if there is a D or not. We've seen many a LBS come here that were terrified of the D progressing. That is out of your control. It takes two to make a marriage, only one to get a D. So continue to focus on you. Cement your 180s. Detach in a loving way (really learn what this means, because so many think it means things it does not). And make sure you are filling your time with lots of good GAL activities to keep your mind off of things and to stay busy.
Make her do the heavy lifting for the D. Don't do anything that you are not legally obligated to do.
D is a step in the process. It is not a finality.
True - I had come to accept that a few weeks ago, in my mind I kept saying to myself we may still have a chance once we get done with this divorce. Guess I've regressed a bit from that thinking recently, not sure why.
I miss her so much. Before she told me about the D, I remember her sleeping in the other couch (she excused it as her back was hurting) and me whispering to her "I miss you". I didn't know down the line things were going to manifest this way, but now looking back I recognize all the signs. It just pains me that I felt she never truly communicated how she really felt, everytime I wanted to have a serious discussion of our R she would say "You're going too deep", or worrying too much. She told me the other day that what did I want, did I want her to spell it out for me? ...
The other issue we're having is religious. We're both deeply catholic, we used to teach Catechism together, lead retreats, etc. Now I'm the only one taking the kids to Mass, every weekend. Not sure what's going to happen once the D finalizes, if she's going to take the kids to Mass or skip her weekends ... In this respect, I don't know what's going on in her head or soul. I try to avoid the subject and guilt her into it, but she knows I'm thinking it.
Yep, we've all been down that road: "If she had only sit me down and explained how serious things were!" WAWs in particular take the tact of "he should have known". "he should have been able to read the signs", "or I did try to tell you!".
The bottom line is that from this moment forward you are going to be a better man, regardless of what she decides. Learn from it and move forward.
The day she told me she said "You have a masters degree, you couldn't figure this out?" ... ouch
What do you guys do (or don't do) about resentments?
The day my wife told me about the divorce, she said she had a lot of pain/hurts ... that they were like nails on wood. You could remove them but they would leave a mark. She's mentioned them a lot since then when we get to talk about that, often she brings up a new one so it's not a consistent list.
When we talked the other night, it was really good to listen to her and she volunteered them without me asking her to tell me. But I don't know what else to do, I think whatever form of relationship (at least as co-parents) would benefit from healing those resentments.
It's strange because she started with those, when she dropped the bomb, in the middle of this process she told me she wasn't angry or bitter about anything, but then lately they've come up again.
Related to that is her relationship with our oldest daughter. They used to fight a lot, and I was the good cop to her bad cop. I think she felt unsupported/betrayed by that (she hasn't told me). She told me how in counseling our daughter would say how much she hated her, etc. I complimented my wife on how much she did for her anyways, and she started crying uncontrollably. I didn't hug her, but I wanted to so bad.
I know I can't say magic words to heal her wounds. But at least I felt that she bringing them up again and me listening helps in some way. I don't know ...
Augusto, are in you in IC? I would highly suggest it.
You also are still too focused on her. She has hurts and pains and resentments. Fixing those is out of your control. What you can do is make sure you are working on you, to 180 on the behavior that contributed to those, so that you don't reopen those wounds in the future.
My W had a lot of pain/hurts and resentment too. I was a pretty bad husband. Very passive-aggressive, very angry and bitter. I reminded her of her father who was mean, and said things that hurt her, and made her feel not good enough.
There was nothing I could do about the past....about the nail holes I had left. All I could do was make sure never to make another one again! And that is what I have been striving to do for nearly 2 years now.
Time heals all wounds, as long as those wounds are not still being inflicted.
Augusto, are in you in IC? I would highly suggest it.
I am. I'm thinking of changing therapist thought, the one I have is ok but he focuses too much on what I tell him about her behavior.
So I'm trying my best not to initiate communication with my wife as much as possible, have been good at that lately. She usually texts often about kids, money, things she needs. Today she didn't text me at all until now (4:00PM) asking if she can use debit card to buy groceries. I usually answer right away, is it worth it to make her wait a bit before replying? or is that just being kind of petty ...?
Do not feel compelled to answer right away. If you can or do to, fine, but do not go out of your way to do so. If you end up doing LRT then the rules change a bit but you aren't there yet.
I highly suggest changing therapists. People should never settle for a therapist that isn't working out. most of the people I talk to that are opposed to IC have had a bad experience with a therapist that they should have replaced instead of giving up on IC entirely.
I've felt her distant from my the last 2 years, first she wouldn't say "I love you" just "me too" when I would say it. And last year she wouldn't even respond.
Definite red flags, except hard to recognize how serious it was at the time. She's clearly been checked out a very long time.
I've been wanting to talk to her about our issues for a while and finally had the chance more than 2 months ago. She told me "I haven't loved you for 6 years (very specific), we don't have a relationship and we should get divorced".
First you need to understand what you are up against. She absolutely means this, she is completely done. That may change in the future but for right now, she does not want to be married to you and all of your attempts to placate her by taking over kid responsibilities and such are having no impact and might even be making her angry. I know this is going to hurt to hear but you need to understand this- not only does she not love you but she may not even like you and quite possibly finds you repulsive. So when we save to give her time and space, it's the ONLY thing you can realistically do that won't make things worse. So try to think of someone you find repulsive. Now imagine them trying to constantly be around you and touch you and tell you they love you and take over your home responsibilities. You would absolutely hate it, right? That's where she is right now.
However yesterday she had an accident (very minor) because she was texting me and driving (talking about the divorce :-/). I asked her if she was ok, she wouldn't answer ... she would just tell me "your car is ok", "your car is ok". When I got to the scene of the accident she was cold and distant, she got back on the car at the end and started crying. I got in the car, sat next to her to calm her down she kept telling me (not yelling) to leave the car.
I intercepted a message after BD from my XW to her best friend in which she said her WORST NIGHTMARE was imagining herself getting sick and me having to take care of her. She actually said that- "worst nightmare". Wow what a shock that was, the person who wanted to spend their life with me in sickness and health now suddenly couldn't stand the thought of me helping her. So your W's reaction doesn't surprise me at all. A switch has flipped and she doesn't want you as a husband or you performing any husbandly duties no matter how well-intentioned.
So all the techniques here are about detaching, giving space and distance, and I get that. However, I'm running out of time and I feel like I have to keep finding opportunities to connect with her somehow, specially emotionally.
Nope, you don't get it. Hopefully after reading the above you have a better idea though. DO NOT TRY TO CONNECT WITH HER RIGHT NOW! Especially emotionally.
If I just detach and not engage her enough, I feel like I'm just going to run out of time and there'll be no way to stop this divorce.
If it's all set up for December then you probably can't stop it no matter what. Unfortunately it only takes one person to divorce, it's not a mutual agreement. Best you can do is take a long term view and hope that down the road she'll have a change of heart.
Last night she told me she wanted to be with somebody that wasn't 50/50 , 20/80 but 100% ... I really want to see how I can show her and make her feel that that person can be me.
You show her by making changes in yourself not for her, but for you. Do 180's, get in shape if you need to, dress better, get back in touch with old friends, make new ones, get out and GAL. Become strong, independent, happy, healthy. And be patient, it could be a year or more before she even begins to soften.
Wow, this forum is so amazing. I really appreciate the very honest and direct feedback I'm getting.
Yeah, I know she doesn't love me, and I know that she's angry/resentful ... My wife has always been the type that when she gets mad at somebody, she stays mad and can shut people off very easily.
A couple of weekends ago, we went to a gymnastics meet for one of my daughters. We went in the same car, although she started sitting passenger side she shifted to the back. We had a great time because our daughter was doing really good. We didn't talk the whole time, she spent quite of time on the phone / social media. Again, sometimes she'd be next to me but most of the time she'd move. I got that, and respected her space and would do the same.
We played a little game of guessing the score our daughter was going to get, and high fived when she did really amazing. I did make her laugh a couple of times and she touched me while laughing to tell me "you're so silly". I hate that I notice that, but her physical contact is so limited I notice everything.
I came back really happy, but the meet ran late. We got home at 11pm, then at 11:30pm she left for a birthday party of a mutual friend (more hers than mine). She came back at 2am, that hurt like hell but nothing I could do about it and I didn't think it was worth it for me to complain (this was her 'weekend w the kids').
Today our 5 year old had their halloween parade as school. She let me know, texted me when it started and I went there. We went in separate cars and I went to where she was when I saw her (mistake?). We took pictures of our daughter, nothing bad happened.
Tonight she told me she'd wait for me to come back so we can take her trick or treating together.
So right before heading to work my wife told me two of her work friends bought her a ticket to go on a trip the weekend after this one, and if I could be with the kids Thursday-Friday (the rest of the weekend I was supposed to be with them and she usually leaves). She told me they surprised her with this, and that they're going to see their family, that she wished they had asked her before but they thought it would relax her a bit (whatever that means she said).
She put me on the spot but I kind of expected her to think I was going to be somewhat upset and I told her, it' fine with me. I didn't want to ask her many details but I did ask where the trip was, she told me it's to New York. She asked my opinion on what to do since the flight is at 4am on Thursday morning, she said she could leave late on Wed stay with her friends and they'd all go together. I said it was fine.
Did I do the right thing here? I do have to work those days, but all it means is I have to drive 1 extra kid to school, everything else is the same. I'm trying to give her space and not pressure her on this type of stuff. It's going to be a though 5 days for me wondering what the heck is going on over there, but I see no other options.
Not going to lie. The trip is very troubling. You handled it well because she is going no matter what you say or do. Has there been any other red flags like this? Do you know her co-workers? I'm really not buying the whole"they surprised me with a ticket" thing.
Don't dwell on it too much. But remain observant and vigilant. The truth always has a way of coming to light.
Not going to lie. The trip is very troubling. You handled it well because she is going no matter what you say or do. Has there been any other red flags like this? Do you know her co-workers? I'm really not buying the whole"they surprised me with a ticket" thing.
Don't dwell on it too much. But remain observant and vigilant. The truth always has a way of coming to light.
Yeah, I'm trying to control my mind from over-spinning.
For the last few years she's been closing herself off from our mutual, and Church friends. She's focused more on work friends and her family in Puerto Rico (which I was the one who reconnected them to her).
I didn't ask her what 2 (or 1 and mom) friends, she said it was somebody she has helped a lot in the past and I think she said they were taking her mom along.
She has this one friend that she talks to quite a bit on the phone (about pretty much nothing) that is a custodian at her hospital, and she helped her out because at one point she was homeless. I met her at a company picnic, didn't see anything suspicious. They hang around a lot.
I could be a jerk about it, I travel for work (although I stopped that after BD) ... I could have told her I have to be in the office Thursday but it just didn't seem worth it to do that.
I could be in denial, I've thought about it, but I don't think she's having an affair. But yeah, stuff like this doesn't help.
I think you handled it great. Taking the kids is always the right thing to do. I hope y'all find some serious fun this weekend and you should just forget about your W and enjoy the time you have alone. If she is doing something wrong then you can't stop her anyways, so let it go.
What do you like to do for fun and what haven't you done in forever that would be awesome?
Well this weekend it's "her" weekend with the kids; I'm planning on going to a divorce support group on Friday night and not sure what after. Then on Saturday thinking of driving to Orlando, some festivals going on.
The weekend she'll be gone I have the kids, not sure what to do. I have some hotel points I was saving up and maybe we do another staycation in Orlando or go to St. Augustine. Not sure, but yeah I want to make sure we're all distracted that weekend.
The girls have weird reactions when their mom goes away on "her weekends". They don't question what she does, but when she doesn't answer their texts they get anxious. BTW she called those weekends her "weekends off" not "your weekends with the kids". :-/
BTW she called those weekends her "weekends off" not "your weekends with the kids". :-/
That seems kinds messed up. I never consider myself "off" from being a parent. No matter where I am in the world. And I've traveled to many different places of the past 6 years.
Well she's always been a great mom, and has dedicated all her time to our kids. Just a couple of things:
1) Our 4th child was a surprise, and I know that caused additional stress in our relationship but also on her life goals (we were talking about going back to school, I wanted to go on a trip to Paris with her, etc.)
2) The oldest kid who is now out of highschool and her, rebelled against her. I don't know if she blames me a bit for it, but I'm sure she thinks I didn't back her up enough in that conflict, so there's resentment there. She also feels like she failed our oldest child, she didn't but that's how she feels
3) The other day she told me about the "weekend off". She also told me that, "You can let the kids do whatever they want with you, but they're not going to disrupt my FLOW" (!?!?) She was referring to their last minute demands, and driving around all over the place. She's had enough, and I get it, but the way she expresses it is a bit disturbing. She did open up a lot to talk about that that weekend.
She also wants me to back her up with the kids which hast put me in uncomfortable circumstances:
a) She was arguing with one of the girls, who took offense to something she said, I backed my W up. My daughter then told me "I felt like you took mom's side against me because you want to be nice to her" (ouch!)
b) Another time she was having another argument with another kid, I stayed quiet. She then went to scream at me because I didn't back her up. I told her I didn't know the full situation and decided to stay quiet, not that I was contradicting her.
#1 rule of parenting: you need to have an united front. It sounds like your parenting with her has been broken for a long time. When you disagree, you do it privately, not in front of the kids.
Augusto, has anyone mentioned the book No More Mr. Nice Guy to you yet? I am detecting some nice guy syndrome tendencies here.
Yeah, that's something we're working on, but during this situation she's reading all my micro-expressions just to see if I even hint at thinking something else. But I believe it has gotten much better.
Yes, I've been called a nice guy before. Gotten that feedback from friends and family. Without going into all the details now, I kind of gave her too much say and freedom on our finances which she would keep messing up over and over and I would have to come in and save the day, when I should have put that under control years ago.
Never heard of the book, might be something I need to take a look at.
BTW, what do you guys recommend I do with my wedding ring for now? I still wear mine, I feel like I can't take it off until the D is 'official' and that taking it off is kind of giving in to her. But not sure ...
My opinion, you wear your ring as long as you are married. Doesn't matter what she does.
I've been trying to get ready to GAL this Friday and Saturday, and to start to detach but this trip she mentioned this morning is starting to bother me. I can't talk about it with friends and family, because I know what everybody is going to tell me ...
She could have kept the trip hidden for me since every other weekend she takes off and stays at another's friend's house. Leaves work on Friday and comes back on Sunday. But still ... this is so hard ...
Hi Augusto, TheFriendsTrip(tm) is common and as Steve said rarely helps the relationship. You can't control whether she takes the trip, what she does there, or what her friends say to her. Most trips are less dramatically negative than we imagine. You can control whether you hurt your situation by being needy during the trip, or super-dramatic before or after the trip. Sounds like you're off to a good start in how you initially handled it, journaling here to work through your feelings, and making plans for that weekend.
My opinion, you wear your ring as long as you are married. Doesn't matter what she does.
Agree.
It's so sad, I don't even know what to do this weekend.
Halloween stuff goes on all weekend here. See if there is a costume contest. See if you can win first prize.
Yeah, still planning. First thing is the divorce group on Friday, and after that I'm thinking of going to an arcade bar (I'm not really a bar person) or a movie.
There's some festivals in Orlando this weekend, I might hop on over there to walk around. I'm also looking at more recurring activities, I like what you guys posted about habitat for humanity, or I may get back involved in some Church ministries. However, I would only be able to do stuff like that every other weekend so have to figure that out.
Hopefully this weekend my wife doesn't come up with any last minute ... "can you watch the kids" requests. She did that a few weekends ago, and I bailed out and went to the movies. She sounded bitter about it "Have *FUN*". But then the next day she asked me again, and guilt tripped me into agreeing so she could go out.
Reading everything here I shouldn't feel bad about it. My rationale before though was that I didn't want her to see me "controlling" her by making myself scarce. But I don't think that's working and she's taking advantage of me. The irony is, she's getting used to me helping more and when the D happens I don't know if she expects me to keep doing that on her "weeks".
My oldest sat next to me, she's 18 now. She told me she'll be back later tonight, I got a emotional because I remember going with her when she was a little child. She asked me if I wanted her to stay, I told her no.
Then I teared up, it's my last Halloween as a family, with my wife. I've been good about not crying for a bit, but man this is so hard. So freaking hard.
OK, almost survived Halloween without incident.
W and I were going to go with our 5 year old and some neighbors trick or treating. However our 13 year old needed to be dropped off at a friends house. So she told me to go ahead and go with the neighbors, I was a little disappointed because I wanted to go with her (I know, detach, detach, detach). She came back when we were almost done, so she suggested we did another round in another neighborhood. She spent most of the time talking to our neighbor, but did talk to me and wasn't dismissive.
I go pick up our 15 year old, when I get home the 13 year old is crying her lungs out. She's complaining that W is calling her names, and my W is yelling at her because our daughter was texting her to see if she was on her way to pick her up, guess she was a bit late.
My W is screaming a lot, I'm in the middle just being quiet, I'm fighting my impulse to tell her it's not OK to lose her cool like that. She keeps screaming and picks a fight with the 15 year old too. She tells me that our daughter said that she's always angry, and that they all say she's angry because of the divorce (my daughter never mentioned the D - I asked her later).
I tell the kids their mom is just asking for them to be patient, and not demand they pick them up right away, but that doesn't calm my W down. She then goes on to complain that for our girls, I'm the "good guy" because I'm calm and have time to drive them around now. She really resents this when the kids get like this.
She keeps screaming, she's screaming at the girls but directing all her attention to me. I make sure I pay attention, listen and look her in the eyes. At one point she complains "ah, it looks so good for you to just be quiet there". I tell her I'm just listening but that I agree that the kids need to be reasonable. I try to validate a bit, but to be honest when she's screaming like this there's not much to say.
She says she can't wait for "this to be over" (assume she's talking about the D). Complains the kids are saying they're miserable, but that she's the first one that wants to leave the house. They can all hear her screams/complaints. I keep trying to calm her down, she says I should go to the kids as they're waiting for me to "Save them". At one point she leaves the house to take a walk and comes back 10/15 minutes.
She feels the kids are painting her as the "bad guy" because of the D, ironic because last year without telling me she told them she was planning on divorcing me to get them used to that as a solution/idea. She complains that on the weekends she's with them, they don't pay attention to her. That they don't appreciate her. That she's done with "one sided" relationships. I swear, sometimes I feel she's divorcing all of us, as much as she loves the kids, I really think she's looking forward to a week off every other week.
Any comments on how I should handle this, what I did wrong? Am I supposed to get angry? Since she dropped the bomb, I just can't. And it's not because I'm trying to impress her (I'm not), I just don't see the point of it anymore. I was arguing with her the last few years but a lot of it had to do with me feeling her indifference, and once she dropped the bomb I understood what was happening.
First no you are not supposed to get angry . Try a boundary - if it’s screaming - just Calmly say I will not be screamed at . If you continue to scream I am going to walk away . If she keeps screaming - walk away .
This post really tugged at my heart . The kids heard all this . End conversation that escalated like this one quickly .
The kids are not painting her as the bad guy . Right now she feels like the bad guy .
First no you are not supposed to get angry . Try a boundary - if it’s screaming - just Calmly say I will not be screamed at . If you continue to scream I am going to walk away . If she keeps screaming - walk away .
This post really tugged at my heart . The kids heard all this . End conversation that escalated like this one quickly .
She was screaming at the kids, then screaming complaining about them to me, but not screaming AT me (if that makes sense).
She started hyperventilating at one point, I asked her if she needed water or to breathe into a bag. She didn't respond. I should have probably not even said anything.
The kids are not painting her as the bad guy . Right now she feels like the bad guy .
She feels that anybody that complains about what she's doing is trying to manipulate her. She feels that the kids saying they're sad, or me when I was showing my sadness (I'm hiding it more now) is manipulation. I really don't appreciate her telling the kids they're being manipulative. She also texted our 15 year old the other day calling her a manipulative narcissist !
She's getting a lot of fallout from her decision, and she doesn't like it. But she makes it clear that nothing will deter her from what she's doing. Her moral and religious background would tell her what she's doing is wrong, and I often wonder what type of internal conflict she has inside her about that. But I'm not going to ask or discuss it with her. She's going to have to deal / resolve that on her own.
Today the plan is to GAL, go to the divorce group tonight and going out with a friend, we have no idea what we're doing :-D
Told my W she has to pick up girls, she's busy until 7 so I don't know how she'll manage, but I'll let her figure it out. When it's "her weekend" she disappears straight from work, so I figure it's fair for me to not worry about this.
Had to tell some of my girls I'll be out for a bit tonight and tomorrow, they weren't too happy about it. That hurts ... but let's see how it goes. If I stay around, W is going to take advantage of me again and figure I don't have a life outside of her.
Augusto, I agree with Cali on setting a boundary. There are appropriate times for listening and validating, but if your W is completely off the rails like that then that is not the time and that needs to be stopped. It sounds like her tirade was uncalled for, that the girls didn't actually do anything wrong. Next time I would say "there is no reason for you to be yelling at me or the kids like this, please stop or we will leave." Then if she continues, take the girls and leave. Go get ice cream or something. The idea is to put your wife on notice that crazy behavior like that will not be tolerated.
Good point. I have to figure out a way to stop these types of escalations, just me being calm myself doesn't work.
My wife just want the whole D process to be over and done with too, I sense her exasperation with the whole situation.
Lawyer emailed me that they have an earlier date for mediation, a couple of weeks from now. I'm super nervous about it, before it was going to be 1st week of December but her attorney insisted on an earlier date ... crap. I'm not ready for this ...
Been texting with my W about who's picking up who today. She's not happy.
This is "her weekend with the kids", I didn't establish this, she imposed it on me. When it's her "weekend off" (as she calls it) she goes to work and directly from work just goes to her friends house and comes back on Sunday.
I stay home all the time, but today I'm going to do my own thing. So this morning I told her, hey I'm leaving before 7pm, make sure you pick up the kids.
So she starts texting me that she can pick up the 5 year old around 7:15 if I can get her sooner. I said no, I have to leave before 7pm.
Then she asks me if I can take the 13 year old to a dance tonight. I said no, I have to leave by 7.
My 15 year old invented going to dance tonight, I told her *talk to your mom*. Now they're arguing and she's complaining to me about the communication.
I'm fighting to answer what's on my mind .... "On your weekends you are not available as soon as you enter work until sunday .... shouldn't you do all of this like I do when it's your time with the kids"?!?!?
Frustrating ... but more validation that I need to make myself scarce tonight and tomorrow.
This is "her weekend with the kids", I didn't establish this, she imposed it on me. When it's her "weekend off" (as she calls it) she goes to work and directly from work just goes to her friends house and comes back on Sunday.
Frustrating ... but more validation that I need to make myself scarce tonight and tomorrow.
Well done, I love how you held the line without arguing with her, and reframed this from a bizarre "her weekend off" model to a more normalizing "her weekend" vs. "your weekend".
Thanks, trying my best. Her last comment was baiting me for an argument;
"Trying to get all the pieces to this mess of miscommunication"
I could answer in so many ways ... but no. I'm going to have a lot of fun tonight!
GAL and being scarce are important. My only concern is how she acts towards the children when she has them . Not that you should walk on egg shells or bend to every request to take them but if she’s not able to control her anger around them . Maybe it’s good you increase the time with them .
My H fought so hard to have the children every weekend . I was very against it . I did the opposite and said ok go ahead . Wished him well and made sure to GAL when I didn’t have children or GAL with them .After a few weeks he realized he was running himself into the ground . I didn’t even have to ask for time with them . He just eventually crashed . When he saw the time I was spending with them was more quality and simple rather than quantity it made him think . He’s able to talk some about it now that he moved home .
I was a stay at home mom for many years . I do see the side of just wanting some down time or just breaking free . If I’m being honest you sometimes loose who you are and are just something for everyone . A mom , a wife , a daughter, a cook , a laundry machine but forget who you are . I had good outlets . Great friends . I will say now looking back my H was not supportive enough while I was home and years later resentment built up in me . I’m a newbie here . I think you are doing good .
Good point. I have to figure out a way to stop these types of escalations, just me being calm myself doesn't work.
...
Being calm is good . If it escalates end it right there . You continue to scream I will leave . Then leave . It may take a few times . She may even get angrier . My H got really angry the first time . Sent me a blast of hateful texts after I hung up from his screaming . I ignored them . Later on he talked about it . I just said it takes 2 people to fight . I’ve eliminated myself from the equation . You will get the same response every time you scream or send me anything hateful .He seemed to be a fast learner though . Been weeks and he hasn’t so much as raised his voice .
GAL and being scarce are important.
Last night I went to the divorce group, then went out with a friend a came back home very late.
In the morning, my W sent one of the kids to tell me breakfast was ready, and we ate together. She really wanted to talk, initiating the conversation asking me for the definition of the word "retaliation" (... which she must know ... ?). So I explained, I thought it was some kind of trap ... she started talking about a situation at work, and HR, etc. etc. I listened, and was glad we could have a normal conversation about her work stuff. Very good.
Then we talked with one of our daughters about asking permission for stuff, she did it in a much calm way this time and I was able to back her up.
I got ready to go to a festival far away from home, when I got out of the shower and room my W said "That's a nice shirt! Is it new?" ... first time since BD she's commented on how I look (well the shirt, but still ... lol).
I took kids to a restaurant and left for my trip, kids were probing to see what I was up to.
During the festival, my wife was texting a lot. It was about kid related items, but I felt she communicated a bit more than necessary. She gave me more details on what she bought, and issues with another one of the kids.
Came back late again tonight.
Overall, a good day. I can't believe how 2 days of being away, doing my own stuff may have caused more positive interactions with my W. I should have started doing this a long time ago.
Tomorrow we have 2 activities together, so we'll see how that goes. First is another gymnastics meet for one of our kids, and then we're going to invite some of her friends to eat a birthday lunch with her. Praying that it all goes well!
This morning woke up and we gave our daughter her birthday gifts. Usually my wife would buy everything, even on my behalf, but this year I bought my daughter this fancy hydro flask bottle. My wife gave my daughter a modest gift and wrote "stay tuned" to get her something later ... when she opened my gift my W got teary eyed. I think she felt bad I got her a more expensive gift ... ? Not sure
We went together to the gymnastics meet, W didn't interact with me much, but was happy my D13 did excellently. My W was supposed to take our D5 to a birthday party but at the last minute it was "cancelled". She said the birthday boy got sick. This is the son of one of her close co-workers that she talks to all the time. It seemed suspicious to me.
At with the kids at Panda express, told oldest to ask her mom what she wanted to eat, she didn't want us to order anything for her. Bought her some lo-mein, but I saw it on the fridge and she never ate it. It's like she doesn't want me to buy her any food.
Plan was to take kids and some of D13 friends to eat sushi, with W. But no she tells me I'll take them while she picksup other daugther at dance. I didn't like this, told her I thought the plan was for us to all go together. She told me I wasn't going to change her plans. I told her she could just go herself and I'll just pay and leave, I feel like she's only involving me as a "money source". Went back and forth didn't escalate much but she didn't like that comment. She said she'd stop by the dinner on her way back, and that if I didn't want to feel like a money source to interact with D13 friends.
I should have probably not said the "money source" thing but that's how I've been made to feel this whole time to be honest. Let's see how the dinner goes.
We started birthday dinner with kids and friends, had sushi. W joined us towards the end, she was kind a bit serious. Didn't sit next to me, but didn't sit far either.
In the meet she took a selfie with our daughter and both of us, and at dinner a group picture with all of us.
She asked if she could use debit card, but the balance in our shared account is super low, so I told her to go gas up, I'd follow and use my card to fill her tank.
Was going to open gas tank for her (it's a bit tricky in her card, you need to use a credit card to open the lid) she told me she knew how to do it. So just put card in, she asked me how much to fill up, told her just fill the tank.
Got in car with kids to drive home, she was tearing up/crying a bit when we left her. I don't know what's going on with her. She sent me a thank you text for paying for birthday dinner and gas. I think she may be crying because of lack of funds? Not sure.
She told me during dinner if I could stay with kids, that one of her friends is in the hospital and they need her to help. This is the family of a friend of hers from work, that I don't know very well at all, and she seems very involved with their family. They don't have a lot of money and I think some of them don't speak English very well so she claims to be helping them quite a bit. It's a bit strange to me but not sure what to think ...
I've been pretty good about not initiating texts with my W unless absolutely necessary.
Broke the rule last night, sent her a link to a youtube video I'm using for meditation/sleeping.
She responded, thanks. Then just went to ask me for $$$ for paying for one of our daughter's car pool. I fell asleep and saw that this morning. Then this morning she sent something like that again, saying that she has no money in her account right now, she proceeded to send me a screenshot of her checking/savings account.
Going to transfer money now, but it kind of irks me that she feels like she needs to send a screenshot of her account. Felt like telling her something about it but not sure if it's worth it.
Hi Augosto,
Remind me, how did you get into the position of doling out money to her like this? It seems like a situation likely to make her feel frustrated and like you are the one who has the control.
This is so unlike my divorce where minor expenses by either party were okay, major expenses by either party needed joint approval, and soon we simply split the main account down the middle.
For our whole M I basically was handoff the money, just made it and my wife would do anything with it. This caused some big problems with finances, to the point that she got us into foreclosure twice (!). So before BD we were talking about me taking that over and splitting accounts.
Well, when BD happened I had opened a new account for "big expenses", I asked her if she wanted to join it so she can see what's going on. She said "I don't want any new accounts with both of our names".
So I've split my check, and made it smaller and smaller into the shared account. I've found that the more money she sees available in an account the more she spends, so I've been able to make the money last longer. I told her she can use it for kid expenses, minor expenses, like you describe. But yeah sometimes it runs very low (last yesterday) and she feels frustrated I know to have to ask me to fill it up. It's not my intention to frustrate or control her with it, but I know she perceives it in a negative way.
Last night when I used my own card for her gas, she texted me the amount when she was done. I didn't ask her for that, so that's an example.
So I put the money in, and she sent the payment for the carpool. I texted something like this (maybe shouldn't have);
"Sorry for the confusion/delay. Like I mentioned I fell asleep after your text last night and after I came back from dropping kids wasn't feeling well and was in bed until I got to library.
Not my intention to withhold that or make you feel bad in any way. As I've said before, assume the best, not the worst. Like you told me the other day, I tell you, you know me"
Augusto -
She sent you a screenshot, it irked you. She will do a lot to rustle your feathers. Don't assume the worst, don't assume the best, just assume... nothing.
These situations are FULL of opportunities for you to be baited emotionally. Almost always the right thing to do is let it go.
So I've split my check, and made it smaller and smaller into the shared account. I've found that the more money she sees available in an account the more she spends, so I've been able to make the money last longer. I told her she can use it for kid expenses, minor expenses, like you describe. But yeah sometimes it runs very low (last yesterday) and she feels frustrated I know to have to ask me to fill it up. It's not my intention to frustrate or control her with it, but I know she perceives it in a negative way.
Last night when I used my own card for her gas, she texted me the amount when she was done. I didn't ask her for that, so that's an example.
I agree with CW that the way you guys are handling the money is likely to cause more frustration on both sides. You will be frustrated by her spending, she will be frustrated by the perception she has no control.
I don't have a solution for you, but your arrangement does seem like one that will generate lots of opportunities for conflict.
Regarding the text, I would consider next time cutting out a lot:
"Sorry for the confusion/delay. Like I mentioned I fell asleep after your text last night and after I came back from dropping kids wasn't feeling well and was in bed until I got to library.
Not my intention to withhold that or make you feel bad in any way. As I've said before, assume the best, not the worst. Like you told me the other day, I tell you, you know me"
Only she can decide to start assuming the best in you. The more you explain/defend, the more you dig a hole.
Hang in there.
Don't apologize for hardly anything. I can tell from your post that you are all bending over backwards here to apologize and explain. Just skip that part with her and everyone else in your life IMO. It's very minor.
Aug, this kind of financial arrangement is going to cause a lot of anger and resentment on her side and frustration on yours. Instead of meting money out to her on an as-needed basis you should really agree on a set amount that you pay into her account weekly or bi-weekly or monthly. If she runs out before the next transfer then that's her problem. She wants to be single, she's got to learn to manage money as a part of that. And you need a set amount that you can budget around.
Work on getting a regular amount deposited on a schedule. Negotiate the amount. Know your legal rights.
H:"I would like to reduce the confusion around money. I think it would be best if I deposited a fixed amount every week so we both can plan accordingly. How much do you think I should deposit?"
W"Bla bla bla"
H:"let me think about that." or "Sound good" or "We can't afford that, I was thinking more like XYZ"
Good suggestions.
Need a bit more help guys/sorry. So I was in the MB getting ready to take a shower, somebody called me and was talking to them. Wife got home, knocked on door (didn't know if it was her or one of the kids) but I didn't have any clothes on so I didn't answer.
Got in the shower, then when I get out I get this text:
"Beyond disrespectful of you to have me knock as [sic] your door and you don't answer. I know you are there. Your car is there and I can hear you there"
She's definitely trying to pick a fight today. Any ideas? Maybe I should have opened the door naked ... lol
Wife got home, knocked on door.. I didn't answer.
"Beyond disrespectful of you to have me knock as your door and you don't answer. I know you are there. Your car is there and I can hear you there" Any ideas?
"Oh! You felt ignored when I didn't open the door promptly, like I don't respect you?"
Well she came back, kids got out of the car and she stayed in the car crying while locking herself in for few minutes. Once inside I told her "Hey I was taking a shower when you knocked on the door" and she didn't try to fight or anything.
I don't know what's wrong with her from yesterday to today. Nothing I can do about it ...
I don't know what's wrong with her from yesterday to today. Nothing I can do about it ...
Wrong.
Listen and understand how she is FEELING. Do not offer advice. Do not tell her everything will be OK.
Validate.
Keep your emotions out. Be neutral. Just listen to her story. It does not mean it is true. Do not argue. Listen to every word like you need to type it here exactly.
True, and I want to do that, but she's not sharing how she feels now.
After I went out Friday night, on Saturday morning she opened up about work without me asking and it was all well. She complimented me on my shirt as I got went out again for the day.
Yesterday she cried twice and was a bit more distant, today the same and cried when she got home.
I made the mistake of asking her how her situation at work was going, what she shared on Saturday, and she responded "I don't want to talk about that now".
Trying to find out why she's crying and how she feels at this moment seems almost impossible, specially if I don't ask her directly about it.
True, and I want to do that, but she's not sharing how she feels now.
Trying to find out why she's crying and how she feels at this moment seems almost impossible, specially if I don't ask her directly about it.
Hi Augosto, I believe she did begin to share her feelings with you tonight:
W: Beyond disrespectful of you to have me knock as your door and you don't answer.
It’s not a FACT that you disrespected her by not opening the front door, it’s how she FELT about the situation. That’s why I encouraged, “Oh no! You felt ignored and like I didn’t respect you when I didn’t open the door?” When we listen, understand, and validate their feelings (there may have been more, e.g., perhaps in the past she had her own key) connection increases. Beyond that, others are then often more receptive to listening to our perspectives, and in my limited experience, may even apologize for jumping to faulty conclusions. Just food for thought next time! It’s s tough journey and tomorrow is a new day. Good luck.
Good point. It wasn't the front door, I didn't open the door to the master bedroom (where I sleep). I think she wanted to ask me if I could pick up one of the kids (which I had offered earlier). Instead she left and did it herself. But those are details, I think your point still stands.
When she came back she didn't bring it up again, she didn't dispute what I said, but it could be because she was done complaining about it. I'm more worried about her crying, between today and yesterday I've spotted her crying or get teary eyed at least 3 times. She's suffering, but I'm not sure exactly why, I can only speculate and I don't want to.
I'm more worried about her crying, between today and yesterday I've spotted her crying or get teary eyed at least 3 times. She's suffering, but I'm not sure exactly why, I can only speculate and I don't want to.
Daycare director stopped me tonight and told me that my wife always looks like she's either on the verge of tears, just done crying, or actively crying any time she sees her. Claims she even saw her in a retail store recently and basically avoided her because it looked like she was just aimlessly walking around the store with tears in her eyes.
BD'ed 8/21, She moved out 9/23... We are swapping S4 every Sunday at 1PM. I am complete NC except for child-related issues. When I see her to swap our son, she acts as if she's about to burst into tears at any given moment and won't give more than one word mumbled responses. Sad to see. Almost like watching a bad train-wreck inside of a snow globe that I can't interact with.
One of the girls mentioned that on the way home my W was talking on the phone about a work situation, so could be the crying last night was about that. It's probably the thing she shared with me on Saturday, but again last night she didn't want to talk about it. Some situation with a complaint from HR to her and her boss, wonder what happened.
I'm feeling particularly down today, I have not been able to work and I'm too focused on her. Feels like a regression. I've been waking up early but this morning I was too slow. She complained about a few things; that the kids were fighting in the morning and I wasn't on top of it, and that she had to put the milk in the fridge I bought last night ... my daughter that got the groceries down didn't put it in.
Only communication today via text has been her updating me about a car insurance claim, from the accident last week. I still struggle with the business-like communication she keeps doing with me. She inserts a "Hello, and good morning" now in those texts, but it seems so robot like.
Just got this text;
W; “I was talking to you and you kept on walking out of the house. I was asking you if you are ok with leaving D18 watching the kids for 1-2 hours while you return from your trip. Is only a yes or no answer”
ME: “Oh you felt ignored when I walked out to pick D15 up. I rather be here so I’ll try to come earlier so you can prepare for your trip. Wasn’t clear”
Am I doing this right?
I was in a rush to pick my daughter up, basically W wants to leave earlier to get ready for her NYC trip ...
I ended up cancelling my trip to the office, not worth the headache and complication. When I told her that she said "You don't have to do that" but I insisted. Hopefully not seeing as caving ...
Communication is almost always confusing. I focus on clarifying and reducing confusion.
Personally, I believe you should have engaged W with full eye contact and focused on listening. If that was not possible, A quick "I am running late. text me. bye"
Here is another option:
H"Sorry, Sounds like you felt ignored. I was running late to pick up D. I will be home by X:XX."
or
H"No. I will be home by X:XX"
or
H:"yes" (Any reason you should not trust D18 to watch the younger kids?? Your wife trusts her)
Communication is almost always confusing. I focus on clarifying and reducing confusion.
Personally, I believe you should have engaged W with full eye contact and focused on listening. If that was not possible, A quick "I am running late. text me. bye"
Here is another option:
H"Sorry, Sounds like you felt ignored. I was running late to pick up D. I will be home by X:XX."
or
H"No. I will be home by X:XX"
or
H:"yes" (Any reason you should not trust D18 to watch the younger kids?? Your wife trusts her)
To be honest, I let my emotions get in the way. I didn't answer yes/no when I walked out (I was in a hurry for certain) because I didn't want her to go on her trip without me being able to see her before she left. Which now that I'm staying and we have to pick up kids, will probably happen anyways.
Things got better when I got home, we talked about a retreat D15 is going this weekend and she went shopping for some supplies for her. This morning she just texted to see how D5 was doing as I was dropping her off to school.
R2C is dead on here. Tell her "I'll be home at X;XX" without any explanation. The fact that it happens to be an couple hours earlier so the need for D18 to babysit is moot is just fine. That way you are making sure you get what you want, without her feeling like you caved or whatever. R2C is a very wise man.
Great advise everybody, thanks for offering it, it is much needed.
So the current situation is my wife will go out on her trip to NYC tomorrow morning (well tonight, she's staying at her friends house) and will be back Sunday. I have to suck it up, detach, not care ... I know it's going to bother me, and I know I'm going to be anxious to see if she communicates with me at all. But there's nothing I can do about it.
Next thing ... last week my wife sent me a text proposing a holiday schedule with the kids. Basically Thanksgiving her, Christmas me, New Years eve me, New Years day her, and a few others.
When she texted me this, I reached out to my L because I didn't know if I agreed if I was committing to something permanent. My L said to hash out Thanksgiving but wait for the rest to the discussed during mediation.
My wife asked again, and again and then had a car accident texting me about this topic (!!!). We talked at night, I told her I hadn't thought about it much and that it's a big deal to me since I've never missed a holiday with my kids (and family). She said one of us had to start the conversation, and then I told her I had talked to my L and she advised we can finalize that during mediation. That sent her off the rails, she's still upset I got a L and started screaming and ranting (kids noticed).
This morning my L send me an email from hers, looks like my wife told her L that I didn't want to discuss this (not true, I told her to give me a few days). Her L said she rather I reach out to my wife to talk about it and agree, etc.
Anyways, what should I do? I was going to tell my wife, sure you can have thanksgiving with the kids ... but I also need to think about what I want. To me, it seemed more fair for me to spend 1 day with them and her another day, but she says she doesn't want to "split the holidays" (although she's splitting New Years, I'm sure she'll have fun during the New Years eve party).
Thoughts?
Propose this:
Thanksgiving day with mother. Friday (day after) with father.
XMAS Eve with mother Xmas day with father.
Next year the opposite.
Exchange time 9AM.
she says she doesn't want to "split the holidays"
If she says this again,I would call her out on her BS.
You ABSOLUTELY want to split the holidays. In fact, you are the only one that wants to split the holidays. That was Divorce does.
If she agrees to Thanksgiving Xmas, then you propose:
Father new years eve and new years day this year. Mother next year.
If she brings up anything:
"I think it is best that we do not split it. I know that we may want to go to parties and might not be in the best shape to parent the next day"
Good suggestion, I'm going to try it. I like the part about calling her BS on splitting the holidays, I hadn't thought about it but yes that's exactly what she's doing. She keeps pretending that this is all normal and it won't have any effect on our kids.
I think it's going to piss her off, but since she wants to get into this I wanted to propose something instead of just passively accepting whatever she proposed. She's used to doing this, and I've allowed it all this time in our M.
The "exchange time" is a bit weird, we still live in the same house. The vague plan is she's expressed some interest in getting an apartment, but as far as I know she doesn't have one picked and she probably can't afford one. That's why this discussion about the holidays is kind of pointless to me at this point, as long as we're in the same house.
The "exchange time" is a bit weird, we still live in the same house. The vague plan is she's expressed some interest in getting an apartment, but as far as I know she doesn't have one picked and she probably can't afford one. That's why this discussion about the holidays is kind of pointless to me at this point, as long as we're in the same house.
Is it likely she plans to whisk the kids away to somewhere else on Thanksgiving--a family member, best friend, co-worker, etc.--or has NYE plans and that's why settling this with you now is important?
I like that Ready2Change's approach limits the discussion to 2019-20. This retains flexibility in mediation.
The "exchange time" is a bit weird, we still live in the same house. The vague plan is she's expressed some interest in getting an apartment, but as far as I know she doesn't have one picked and she probably can't afford one. That's why this discussion about the holidays is kind of pointless to me at this point, as long as we're in the same house.
Is it likely she plans to whisk the kids away to somewhere else on Thanksgiving--a family member, best friend, co-worker, etc.--or has NYE plans and that's why settling this with you now is important?
I don't know, could be. She made it sound like she didn't know, but I don't believe her. We would usually go to a friend's house for Thanksgiving, but she perceives those friends as being "on my side" (which is not true) so she probably won't do that. I asked her but she didn't want to be open about her plans.
I'm sure for NYE she's already being invited to a party. I found it curious that she was willing to give up Christmas eve/day so easily. We made it a point every year to be both awake to see the kids run to open their gifts, and it's easy for her to *not* do that this year?!?!
I found it curious that she was willing to give up Christmas eve/day so easily. We made it a point every year to be both awake to see the kids run to open their gifts, and it's easy for her to *not* do that this year?!?!
Did she offer to give up Christmas or Christmas Eve? The person who gets Christmas Eve is typically the one who gets to do the night-before traditions and see the kids wake up and run to open their gifts.
Just pointing out nuances so you don't get hoodwinked.
Oh boy. She wants you to have them NYE (so she can go out and party). And I am guessing in Thanksgiving she is going to want the Wednesday night free to go party.
I agree with R2C, but try this. Try to arrange it so that she has them Wed night before T-giving and you will pick them up Friday morning. Let her know that on NY day you will be dropping them off early in the morning (8-9am) because you have somewhere to be later that day.
Make sure you really have plans Wed. night before t-giving and on NY day (maybe go to a bowl game!).
Or I could flip it around for her and ask her to spend NYE with kids and I'll pick them up the next day.
So;
Thanksgiving: her w kids
Day after Thanksgiving: me w kids
Christmas eve: me w kids
Christmas day: her w kids
New Year's eve: her w kids
New Year's day: me w kids
I don't want to make this into a fight, but since she's in vacation mode I do find it very suspicious that she wants me to stay with kids on NYE.
In house does make it a little different, but I believe the goal is to get equal 50/50 splits. Lawyers are expensive.
One parent gets Thanksgiving this year, the other gets Xmas. Flips next year.
My X always has Xmas Eve. I always have xmas day. Kids show up at 9. They open presents at my house. We have the meal. Santa presents are easy to put out because they are with mom.
Local relatives make it easy for me to split holidays. If you or her want to travel during holidays, then full holidays might be an option for you.
I'm looking at some volunteer opportunities for Thanksgiving day. It's actually kind of exciting, I'm going to miss my kids at dinner but if I could do something meaningful that day it would help a lot alleviate what I expect to be a day full of sadness ... or thankfulness.
"or lack of thankfulness"
Difficult night ...
So I take D13 to church for her youth group, W text me this little gem;
"As you attend church so often now and are finding this new found and deeper spiritual life, I pray that your word always match your actions. I will continue to be the best mom I can be for our kids and I will continue to treat you with respect."
Context - W knows we have both been very spiritual, we met at Church and were youth leaders, I even wanted to be a priest, so this is a bit ironic.
I answered all wrong, I went into a long response about forgiveness and the moral/spiritual dimension of what is happening to us. I should have just shut up, but I felt that by bringing up my faith she opened the door to that discussion.
Anyways, I don't know what she meant by "word match actions". She did say later that she will continue with the D even though I'm delaying. As she was leaving (more on that later) I asked what she meant, because I'm not delaying anything. Looks like she's frustrated with my lawyer not being fast on responding, and filing stuff. I told her I have nothing to do with that, and that I haven't told my lawyer to delay anything.
I told her how this process is so horrible, lawyers, separating kids on holidays, etc. ... she just said "yeah, it's called a DIVORCE".
She says she's happy I'm doing better, improving spiritually, but that she doesn't need to be a part of it and that we don't need to be married. In the end she left screaming at me. Very frustrating night.
So she's off to her NYC trip. Initially she told me she'd be back Sunday, now I find out she's back Monday and didn't even give me a time "sometime in the afternoon, my friend hasn't given me details". She has family in NYC and I asked her if she was going to visit them, she said she doesn't know because she's not even sure what part of NYC she'll be staying at. The whole trip is so weird, but I don't to think about it or obsess about whatever she's doing over there.
Few minutes later she calls me because D13 was missing her new water bottle. She talked to me normally, like nothing had happened before. The way she left I was surprised she called and even sounded normal. Then texted me a bunch of info about things the girls have to do.
The KEY is that you realize this. Everything is a learning experience. Do better next time.
W:"Bla bla bla pray for you..bla bla bla Be the best mom I can..bla bla bla "
H:"Thanks. I appreciate that."
but that she doesn't need to be a part of it and that we don't need to be married.
H"I am sorry you feel that way"
Thanks Ready, yeah I've been beating myself up for not validating and letting myself fall into that trap. It was just odd, she almost never sends a text like that and it caught me completely off guard. I saw it as an "opening", oh she's talking about our R in a way, let me see ... and I need to stop thinking like that.
People that still talk to her and me tell me she's struggling, not feeling good. Just talked to somebody today and she's sick and doesn't want the kids (or I I guess) to know about it. Says she went to urgent care, one day while at work. All I know is that last week she was under a lot of stress, and one day she slept as soon as she got home.
I'm not crazy about this "NYC trip", I can't even really tell if she's really there. She told the kids about it, but it seems like she hasn't told a lot of our friends. I didn't complain about it, but I wouldn't be surprised she expected me to voice my opinion on it ... just not going to do it. I wished her well and a good time.
I think the D is completely unavoidable, I don't see her changing her mind anytime soon. She's been very clear about that. I still think my best opportunity might be after, but I don't see how that's going to happen. I have a meeting with my L tomorrow, so we'll see how that's panning out.
Today she's sent some cordial text about the kids, etc. so at least things seem to have cooled off for the time.
Lots of texts from W, related to kids. She sent some hearts and kisses via text so I could show D5. Oldest one needed help with something and she constantly kept texting "please help her", "please help her". Resolved all issues.
She texted something about driving kids back and forth and put in a little thing to remind me this is what she's done all along, how's this for a validating response?
W: "I know how hard it is to juggle the kid's schedule. It's ben my life. Thank you again for taking care of D18's issue and getting D15 now"
H: "I understand it much better now"
Trying to get the hang of this ...
Most of the other texts are not opportunities for validation since they're more about coordinating stuff of course.
W: "I know how hard it is to juggle the kid's schedule. It's ben my life. Thank you again for taking care of D18's issue and getting D15 now"
H: "My pleasure"
Crap, did I answer the wrong thing again? I really suck at this.
Read this:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566Remember, you do not have to respond to txt immediately. You can post here first if needed.
Crap, did I answer the wrong thing again? I really suck at this.
I know the feeling. Making mistakes is very frustrating when learning new skills.
^^^^^^^Me validating^^^^^
OK, what do you do for text/messages that are not really expressing emotion? I'm assuming there's nothing to validate ... (latest ...)
W: "Just go whenever you get D5. I would get medicine first. D5 can play a bit there. Pharmacy closes at 6"
I usually would just answer, "sure", "ok" , "no problem". But again, don't see this as a good example that needs validation. Right?
OK, what do you do for text/messages that are not really expressing emotion? I'm assuming there's nothing to validate ... (latest ...)
W: "Just go whenever you get D5. I would get medicine first. D5 can play a bit there. Pharmacy closes at 6"
I usually would just answer, "sure", "ok" , "no problem". But again, don't see this as a good example that needs validation. Right?
Correct.
H"will do. Thanks"
how's this for a validating response?
W: "I know how hard it is to juggle the kid's schedule. It's ben my life. Thank you again for taking care of D18's issue and getting D15 now"
H: "I understand it much better now"
OK so first understand that validation is a learned skill and is very difficult to master, so don't beat yourself up too much but that wasn't validation. Now I'm not saying your response was wrong or harmful by any means, but I do want to help you to understand the difference. Validation is first seeking out her FEELINGS and then ACKNOWLEDGING them. You are not agreeing/ disagreeing/ arguing/ negotiating/ explaining. You may not agree at all with what she is saying, you are simply acknowledging that they are her feelings and they are valid. Example:
W- I know how hard it is to juggle the kid's schedule. It's been my life.
You- It sounds like that was frustrating for you, is that how you felt? (seeking out her FEELINGS- mad/ angry/ disappointed/ frustrated)
W- I enjoy doing things for the kids but it made me angry that you were never there, that I had to do it on my own. (note her feelings were actually "angry" and not "frustrated" like you suspected, so you adjust your response, see down below)
Now note what 99% of guys will do right here- go into self-defense mode:
"But I just took them to the movie last week, and I took them to school 2 weeks ago and picked them up the day after that, did you forget all that????" This is a terrible response because what this says is "I don't care about your feelings, they are wrong and I am going to tell you why."
Instead a validating response would be:
"I hear you saying it made you angry that I didn't help more, I can understand why you would feel that way." Again you are not AGREEING with what she is saying, merely supporting her feelings.
When you learn to properly validate guess what happens- 1) you immediately put her at ease, it reduces conflict. 2) she feels like you are actually listening and seeking to understand her. 3) she'll reevaluate what she said. My girlfriend will talk in absolutes- "you NEVER blah blah blah" and when I listen and validate she will back down and say "well that's not true, of course you do that, I am sorry I'm just having a bad day." It is a more useful tool in a happy relationship because your SO wants to find balance instead of fighting. It can be frustrating when dealing with a WAS though because sometimes they see no good in you because they're filtering it out to justify what they are doing. So you have to keep working and working at it.
She's super chatty today, HELP!
H: "Will do. Thanks" (thx R2C)
W: "I appreciate you doing ALL my regular daily things for the kids"
W: "Thank you"
.... ?
Google: feeling circle
Notice the 7 primary feelings. Each of those is broken down to a more specific. Then you have the outer ring.
I use this statement with my children frequently:
"I am frustrated" or "You look frustrated"
It is the middle of the road of Anger. My kids have gotten to raging. Many levels of classification. Some people never learn to express their feeling in words.
There are other "feeling diagrams"
W: "I appreciate you doing ALL my regular daily things for the kids"
W: "Thank you"
H:"I am enjoying this. Glad to help."
Google: feeling circle
Notice the 7 primary feelings. Each of those is broken down to a more specific. Then you have the outer ring.
I use this statement with my children frequently:
"I am frustrated" or "You look frustrated"
It is the middle of the road of Anger. My kids have gotten to raging. Many levels of classification. Some people never learn to express their feeling in words
This merits inclusion in the top DB quotes thread.
Have you ever shown this diagram to your kids, and if so, how did you introduce it?
Have you ever shown this diagram to your kids, and if so, how did you introduce it?
Havn't shown it to them. Mostly point out things when I "see" and remember.
Me:"Why do think StepMom is frustrated?"
Kids:"Because I didn't do my chores?"
Me:"and why else?"
Kids:"Because I said I would"
Me:"And why else?"
Kids:"Because we have talked about this many times and I don't change my behavior"
Wow that feeling circle is really useful. Bookmarked that and will study it often.
My problem was identifying and articulating my feelings. I'm getting better at it but I could still improve.
Augusto, you do need to validate more. It is very difficult. Nobody teaches you how to do this. And now you have to learn how to do it very quickly. I read on a another thread - think of it as allowing the S to attack you, but by validating you simply 'dodge' the attack and let them fly past you without hitting you.
Acknowledgement is the crucial word here. As said before, you're not agreeing ("yes I was rotten to you. I'm sorry"); instead you show you've listened ("It sounds like you're feeling [x] when I [x]." then leave that sentence as it is).