Hi!
I think I should introduce myself as currently “optimistic” which is a 180 from a month ago. I’m 3 weeks out from the BD in my 12 year marriage (Advanced apologies for not knowing/using all the lingo; I’m VERY new here). I’ve been lurking for a few days now and have read the suggested articles and posts and even quite a few threads. I’m struggling because I’m not sure if I fit the standard “rules” because doing so goes against the changes I’m trying to make.
Long story short: I’ve been stuck inside a bad dream for a couple years and have missed out on some of the best times of my life. I could see everything going downhill around me and thought that I had tried everything so I think I just gave up. I hit rock bottom when my wife asked me to leave for the rest of the week on 10/08 following a routine disagreement. I VERY reluctantly left, went to a hotel and got in my own head for 4 days, before I finally WOKE UP! When I went home, I made all the mistakes I could possibly make. I begged, bargained, overcompensated (still happening), everything I could think of while in what I refer to as “my awakening”. It felt like I had fallen asleep at the wheel, driven off a cliff and am now submerged in a dark lake and sinking fast. First reaction is to take a deep breath and allow instinct to kick in. Find solid ground and established a base. From there, you can find a way “up” to the surface and that’s where I am now. I think I’m out of reaction mode and on my way to making permanent positive changes to myself.
When I came home, I moved into the basement. For the first couple days, I pushed her, not so much for answers, but for boundaries and structure within our new situation. Those were never set but met with a reply of “let’s figure it out day by day and check back weekly to see what’s working and what’s not.” That was 2 weeks ago but I trusted my gut and stopped asking. I’ve been in the dark ever since and cannot determine the best way to approach my situation or my W.
I decided to work on me and try to give her space. I’ve been extremely successful at changing my attitude in general and taking a new approach to life. I’m working out, eating better, had my first appt. with an IC, and spending more time and having more fun with my kids. We’ve been doing a lot of family Halloween stuff the past couple weekends and it was a bit overwhelming for my W at first. I’ve been doing more around the house…a lot more, but the intention now is to help her have an easier day and get to relax a little bit. It made her mad at first that I was doing these things and spending time with the family and she even asked “Where have you been these past years? You’ve missed out on a lot.” I told her I understand that I was completely absent as a H and F and can’t change the past but only work on where I go from here.
I’ve spent a lot of time looking at my past from an outside perspective as well as my wife’s perspective. Now I can see she’s been reaching out while pulling away at the same time. I only saw her pulling away and it made me push her more. We have very different love languages (Me PT and her WoA) and I think that’s where I went wrong. Everything became a test to see if she would show me love and when I felt rejected and unloved because she didn’t engage with me in a physical way (not just sex), I started resenting her and depriving her from the love she needed as a way of pushing back. It became about unmet expectations and with every one, I pulled away further. I started wondering if she was seeing someone else and a little over a year ago, my suspicions started getting the better of me. One of her very close family members had an affair and it almost broke up their family. She cut it off, he stayed, and now they’re better than ever, but it did a number to my head. About a month after that, I woke up around 3:00 am one night and noticed my W wasn’t in bed so I went down to look for her and found her on the phone with a guy I’ve never heard of. She said she was just having a panic attack (which is common for her) and she was on FB looking for someone active so she could just talk to pull her out of the anxiety. I have asked her about whether she’s had/is having either an EA or PA and she has repeatedly told me “no”. She’s never had sex just to have sex. She has to be in love first. She has a network of friends and family and our kids that she’s been going to for support. I’ve always trusted her and still do but am wondering if I’m a fool for doing so.
We’ve gone through the cycles of acknowledging something was wrong and scratching the surface to fix it only to find ourselves in the same discussion time and time again. I realize now that the cycle could never be altered; it needs to be broken and it all starts with me. I asked her if we could see a MC and it made her mad because she’s brought it up before and I was always too prideful and dismissive. She said she needs to work on herself first but would go see one if that’s what I wanted. I decided just to find my own IC and let her do the same for now.
So here I am now, completely confused. I’m living what appears to be a completely normal life with my family in all aspects except that I feel like a stranger in my own house and walk on eggshells trying to sneak in and out of our bedroom when she’s not in there to get my clothes for the next day. When we first started talking again a couple weeks ago, we hugged a couple times but have not physically touched each other in over 2 weeks now. At one point, she was holding onto the bag of food on the center console as I was driving us home and I reached to put an extra hand on it as I made a sharp turn. My hand brushed against hers and she almost instinctively pulled her whole hand away and let me hold the bag. I’m trying to remain positive and show her that these changes to myself are real, but I realize now that I’ve broken her trust over the years and right now, this appears to be the same cycle and I should be giving up in the next week or so. It’s tough to keep a smile and positive attitude when you are being completely deprived of love from your W, and she seems so content with the way things are now.
Part of me wants to go dark and let her come to me when she’s ready, but that’s the same cycle that I’m trying to break. Me pulling away is what made her decide we might be done. She has told me she’s willing to work on our M, but right now, I feel like I’m the only one actually working on it. We’ve completely switched roles and now she’s the cold one while I’m trying to keep things together. I can finally see how she’s felt these past years, but what I fear is that she’s going to go down the same dark road I’m trying to come back from and if she does, will she make it back to me?
We know that “us” as a priority has slipped so far down the list that we never get around to it anymore. She’s asked me to set up date nights for us several times but I never did. My IC suggested that I ask her out on a date and I was considering asking her to a movie since we wouldn’t be trapped in a couple hour conversation that would stress her out, but I’m not sure if that’s the right move right now. I could handle the rejection if she said “no”, but I’m afraid of pushing her further away. Again, we are back to normal conversations and even enjoying time together, but don’t share a bed. I don’t have a W right now, I have a roommate that I want to be my W and I’m not sure where to start to get her back.
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Welcome to the board, and sorry you are hear.
I have to tell you, reading your sitch it was as if I was reading my own sitch. The similarities are striking!! The dynamics in your sitch are very similar. Even your LLs are the same for me and my W! And I would withhold WoA and other loving emotional gestures because my PT wasn't being fulfilled. It was all very passive-aggressive.
The good news is that there is hope!! But I do need to caution you, not to fall into the trap that detachment can't work mentality. We are guys. As guys we tend to be very logical. Think about this logically:
- For years you were absent emotionally and maybe even physically.
- Then your W tells you that she doesn't want to be married anymore.
- So your reaction is to suddenly try to smother her with being there emotionally and physically.
- Of course she will resent that. That is what she wanted for years, and now she doesn't want it and you are forcing it on her.
Logically, can that be a winning strategy? When someone wants to be left alone the worst thing you can do is force yourself on them. However, you can get them interested and maybe get them to come back themselves. That's what happened in my sitch.
So yes do all of the 180s you need to. Be more upbeat, happy, fulfilled, pleased and confident. Continue GAL and being the best father you can be. Cement these changes (IC was a good call my friend!!), and be consistent. (I am sure you read sandi's rules, to me the most important one is to be consistent because one slip up can set you back.) But do not pressure or pursue her. Become the best you that you can be, and let her see that WHEN you have an opportunity to do so.
So what are some actions you can take right now to move things forward?
1) Take back your bed. Just hop in the bed tonight at bedtime. When she protests just say "I decided I am going to sleep in here from now on. You are welcome to as well." And then leave it at that. If she doesn't like it, screams, yells, cries, complains, listen and validate....but stay in the bed. Remember, attraction is about respect for women. She might hate you for a few nights....but she WILL respect you.
2) Do not ask her out on a date yet. This is still brand new. Pursuit and pressure can come later as she moves back toward the marriage. Remember, most ICs are classically trained. THey will coach you to "woo her back". To "sweep her off her feet". That would have worked 6 months ago, or 2 years ago, or sometime in the past, but not now. Marriages are like cars. If you do the routine maintenance, change the oil, replace the air filters, change the brakes, then it will run well for a longtime. If you ignore routine maintenance, don't change the oil, and the engine seizes, well then routine maintenance is too late. Your marriage is broken down, it needs engine replacement no matter how many time you now try to change the oil.
3) Work on consistency in your 180s. Cement them. Make them just who you are. Eventually she will learn to trust the changes, but it could take a longtime. It took over a year before my W started to trust the new Steve85, and even then she still will test me now and again to see if I really have changed, and I am almost 2 years in!
4) Learn about loving detachment. EVen google "self-differentiation in marriage" to get a better perspective on what loving detachment is. That is a healthy way to be in a marriage, even if you never had a hiccup like this one. Learn about it and start practicing it. HINT: Become a master at listening and validating.
I feel good about your sitch, you just have to be diligent and consistent. But you need to temper all of that with a huge dose of patience. It took you years to get here, it isn't going to turn around over night.
Hi! I think I should introduce myself as currently “optimistic”
Welcome and hello! Yay for optimism. Some of us have reconciled.
I hit rock bottom when my wife asked me to leave for the rest of the week on 10/08 following a routine disagreement. I VERY reluctantly left, went to a hotel and got in my own head for 4 days, before I finally WOKE UP!
It sounds like you needed the days apart. Going forward, though, make her do any work and deal with any hardships of separating—you don’t want it, but you won’t stop her.
When I came home, I moved into the basement.
Oof, very typical, but anti-DB and one to consider reversing.
That was 2 weeks ago but I trusted my gut and stopped asking. I’ve been in the dark ever since and cannot determine the best way to approach my situation or my W.
Good instincts and pro-DB. You’re sleeping in the basement and she hasn’t asked you back—you know it’s not great!
I d“Where have you been these past years? You’ve missed out on a lot.” I told her I understand that I was completely absent as a H and F and can’t change the past but only work on where I go from here.
Very typical. She sees your changes but is upset they took so long and may not trust them to stay. A caution—don’t go overboard and make unfair or unsustainable changes. Don’t buy into the narrative you were completely absent before even if you were more absent than you should’ve been.
Got to go for now. Take care and good luck!
Steve85 is wise. I highly recommend following his advise. If you only do one thing he advises, it is this:
1) Take back your bed. Just hop in the bed tonight at bedtime. When she protests just say "I decided I am going to sleep in here from now on. You are welcome to as well." And then leave it at that. If she doesn't like it, screams, yells, cries, complains, listen and validate....but stay in the bed. Remember, attraction is about respect for women. She might hate you for a few nights....but she WILL respect you.
Read this post, and as many of the threads it links to:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2846984
The good news is that there is hope!!
This might be the best thing I have heard in over a week. I have hope, but hearing it exists from someone who can relate so much to my situation has allowed me to take a deep breath.
1) Take back your bed. Just hop in the bed tonight at bedtime. When she protests just say "I decided I am going to sleep in here from now on. You are welcome to as well." And then leave it at that. If she doesn't like it, screams, yells, cries, complains, listen and validate....but stay in the bed. Remember, attraction is about respect for women. She might hate you for a few nights....but she WILL respect you.
2) Do not ask her out on a date yet. This is still brand new. Pursuit and pressure can come later as she moves back toward the marriage. Remember, most ICs are classically trained. THey will coach you to "woo her back". To "sweep her off her feet". That would have worked 6 months ago, or 2 years ago, or sometime in the past, but not now. Marriages are like cars. If you do the routine maintenance, change the oil, replace the air filters, change the brakes, then it will run well for a longtime. If you ignore routine maintenance, don't change the oil, and the engine seizes, well then routine maintenance is too late. Your marriage is broken down, it needs engine replacement no matter how many time you now try to change the oil.
3) Work on consistency in your 180s. Cement them. Make them just who you are. Eventually she will learn to trust the changes, but it could take a longtime. It took over a year before my W started to trust the new Steve85, and even then she still will test me now and again to see if I really have changed, and I am almost 2 years in!
4) Learn about loving detachment. EVen google "self-differentiation in marriage" to get a better perspective on what loving detachment is. That is a healthy way to be in a marriage, even if you never had a hiccup like this one. Learn about it and start practicing it. HINT: Become a master at listening and validating.
I feel good about your sitch, you just have to be diligent and consistent. But you need to temper all of that with a huge dose of patience. It took you years to get here, it isn't going to turn around over night.
1. Wow! Take back my bed?!?! That seems so counterintuitive but it’s also exactly what I want and need to do. Even if there’s no physical touching, I need to get out of the basement to shake the feeling of isolation and help keep myself positive.
2. I didn’t think I should ask her out yet either. The only things I walked away from my first IC was that I need to start letting go of the guilt and that my wife wants to be perused. I took that part with a grain of salt because I don’t believe I’ve conveyed the whole sitch yet.
3. I started out way too hard but have eased back and am trying to pick up more of the house work and helping with the kids more which is something I can definitely maintain. I’ve also tried little things just to change up the daily routine. I started making the bed every morning even though I wasn’t sleeping in it. I wanted her to have a clean and relaxing room to walk into at night to help relieve some of her stress. She told me I don’t have to do that but I kept doing it anyways. After a couple days, she started making it before I got out of the shower. I saw it and thought “aww, that’s cute!” and proceeded to tighten the sheets and comforter so tight my Marine Corps drill instructors would have been proud! She’s now thanking me every morning.
I fully understand the time and work ahead of me. I need to gain her trust back and the only way that’s going to happen is with consistency over time.
Thank you for the encouraging words. I’m getting better at keeping myself positive and not spiraling but sometimes I just need to know that I’m on the right track, or at least close to it. It can be difficult to convince myself of this while still so confused and feeling in limbo.
Just be careful with the house work. Certainly do your fair share but do not become super husband, and her maid. Remember, you need to command respect. Most women do not respect men that are playing their maid. I too in my sitch got better about helping around the house, but I still let her do her fair share. It is a balancing act.
This is especially important if she is in any type of A (EA or PA), since her respect for you is already very low. You do not want to continue to make decisions that erode her respect. Attraction to you will follow respecting you. That is what taking your bed back is all about.
Keep on keeping on!
I hit rock bottom when my wife asked me to leave for the rest of the week on 10/08 following a routine disagreement. I VERY reluctantly left, went to a hotel and got in my own head for 4 days, before I finally WOKE UP!
It sounds like you needed the days apart. Going forward, though, make her do any work and deal with any hardships of separating—you don’t want it, but you won’t stop her.
When I came home, I moved into the basement.
Oof, very typical, but anti-DB and one to consider reversing.
Per all the suggestions, I’m going to take my bed back. I’ve been wanting to do exactly that but thought I should wait for her to suggest it. It’s felt like a punishment even if that’s not her intention. The guilt I’ve been working through made me feel deserving of being a basement dweller and isolated from my family. I isolated myself for so long maybe it was time for them to isolate me.
The fact is that I’m gaining my confidence and self respect back and I deserve to sleep in our bed. I’d like her to sleep there as well, but I understand if she isn’t comfortable with it and needs to sleep in the guest room for now. I plan to tell her exactly that when she questions what I’m doing walking into our bedroom tonight.
Thank you for taking the time to reach out. I greatly appreciate any help I can get right now!
Add me to the "take back your bed" chorus. It's your bed as much as it is hers... Moreso if she has strayed (but let's not assume that without knowing). Either way, Steve is dead on balls accurate, here. You need to have this woman's respect before she can even think about loving you romantically, and running away from your own room to out of the house and then to the basement or guest room isn't going to do that. None of us is saying force yourself on her physically or romantically, and your gut feeling that it's too early (WAY too early, in all likelihood) to be thinking about "dates" is spot on, but I can think of no reason you shouldn't be in that bed, and several reasons that you should.
And, yes, there is hope. Both Steve and I, as well as others here, have been blessed to make it through to reconciliation, and that was after overcoming affairs in both cases, so there IS hope. But right now, out of the box, your primary focus needs to be on you... 180s, GAL activities, turning yourself into a man only a fool would leave (AMOAFWL). Some of that will, necessarily, involve your interactions with her (listening, validation when appropriate, projecting strength and confidence in your interactions, etc) but, by and large, you will be focusing first on "saving yourself" so that, if and when the time comes, you will be better equipped to save your MR.
Stay strong, hang in there, and God Bless. We're here to help.
.....I’m going to take my bed back...
I wish I heard this from more posters. This statement right here shows me that you have what it takes to turn this around.
Most guys give us excuses or wait too long.....
You can handle it
Most guys talk too much. Listen and validate. Pay close attention to every word she says. Just as if you were going to post them here later.
Hold eye contact. Be very aware of your body language and hers as well as tones. Slow down and deepen your voice.
4) Attitude (state of mind) – Happy (smile), Cool (Open and relaxed body language), Calm (slow), Confident (eye contact), humorous, seductive (ozz sex), Depth (mysterious, surprise ), Sincere , Interesting, Engaging
5) Awareness/Flirting ( 93% of communication is non verbal (body language) – study and enjoy what you find attractive and your body will naturally follow your thoughts.
Well I did it and it was so much easier than I expected. I had a short, but direct reply prepared in my head for when she asked why I was sleeping in the bed. I took my pillows up first just to test the waters and drop the hint but it didn’t seem to phase her so I went back down to let the dog out and lock up the house. Came back up and got into bed. She simply asked “you’re sleeping here tonight?” To which I replied “yes”. Best night sleep in nearly a month!
On a side note, I haven’t seen her cold side in a few days. I know she’s noticed some of my 180’s and has commented a couple times that this isn’t like me. Last night she told me she was surprised I went to the neighborhood bar by myself to watch the Steelers game on Monday night because I never do that. She was also kind of taken aback at how casually I left without telling her what I was doing. She texted me once to ask if I was having fun and I sent a screenshot of 0-14 score and said “trying” and that was it. She texted back that Mason Rudolph (who I convinced her to pick up for her fantasy team) didn’t look so good. I didn’t reply. Being somewhat mysterious seems to be gaining her attention.
JR,
Nice job taking your bed back and her response is very promising. I think you have a really good chance here because I don't think she is at the point of no return.
Continue to listen and validate and GAL. To use an analogy, think of her as a cat. When you're relaxed calm, content and the cat is curios it will come to you and sit on your lap. If you force it to stay or chase a cat it will run away. Let her come to you and her own pace.
Really nice job it is usually very difficult for newbies to make strong moves. Keep it up!
JR,
Continue to listen and validate and GAL. To use an analogy, think of her as a cat. When you're relaxed calm, content and the cat is curios it will come to you and sit on your lap. If you force it to stay or chase a cat it will run away. Let her come to you and her own pace.
Wow! No kidding...I came up with a cat analogy this morning while I was working out. She’s been hiding and watching and getting curious. I just need to keep her curiosity and not scare her. She needs to decide to when she’s comfortable enough to pounce so to speak.
My confidence is gaining and sleeping in my own bed last night felt empowering. The basement is now my work out room and not my bedroom. If she mentions it today, I still have my response and I think it will go over well. Exercise bike is arriving today so between that getting ready to hunt this weekend, I have plenty to occupy my time and give her space.
Heading into work feeling positive!
JR, just be careful about motive. WASs can sniff out "reverse psychology" like a bloodhound. Being mysterious to get her curious isn't the same is not behaving as a husband would with a wife in a healthy marriage. I don't recall you saying she wanted a D, but many of the LBSs here have had the D bomb dropped. Which means they've been fired as their spouse. Your sitch might be a little different, but don't over share because right now that isn't where your marriage is at, not because you want her to be curious.
But overall, you are doing great. Keep it up.
Steve,
I completely understand what you’re saying. I’m struggling with where and how to give her space. The “mysterious” reference was only meant as I’m breaking out of my comfort zone to GAL. My confidence level is way above where it was even a few days ago and I think she’s picking up on it. It’s a significant change that differs from the past few rounds of “change” where it ultimately came from a selfish place. I was looking for instant gratification and gave up when I didn’t see results. This time, I’m changing me and not just my actions and it’s kind of mysterious to us both.
It’s still awkward, especially at night and in the morning because that’s where our old daily routine (kiss and hug goodbye in the am and kiss goodnight) is completely gone. This is where I’m trying to establish a new routine that we’ll both be comfortable with. My only fear is that this new routine could become too comfortable for either of us. I want to build a new R with my W, but right now I’m in the friend zone and I don’t want to get permanently stuck there. I know it’s her decision but I don’t want to give her cake and watch her eat it in front of me.
JR, good job taking the bed back, and your "yes" response was perfect! No need for long explanations.
Well I did it and it was so much easier than I expected. I had a short, but direct reply prepared in my head for when she asked why I was sleeping in the bed. I took my pillows up first just to test the waters and drop the hint but it didn’t seem to phase her so I went back down to let the dog out and lock up the house. Came back up and got into bed. She simply asked “you’re sleeping here tonight?” To which I replied “yes”. Best night sleep in nearly a month!
You Da man!
Do you make the bed? If not 180 and start making the bed if you are the last one to get up. It is a simple task, and your first accomplishment for the day. If she asks, hold eye contact,smile,simply rely "I like it this way", then head out to take care of other things.
You Da man!
Do you make the bed? If not 180 and start making the bed if you are the last one to get up. It is a simple task, and your first accomplishment for the day. If she asks, hold eye contact,smile,simply rely "I like it this way", then head out to take care of other things.
Thank you! I have to thank everyone here that suggested to do it. That’s what gave me the confidence and courage to do it.
I do make the bed now. One of my good friends (1 1/2 years into repairing his M after his W had a PA) suggested it and I liked the idea. I posted this yesterday:
I’ve also tried little things just to change up the daily routine. I started making the bed every morning even though I wasn’t sleeping in it. I wanted her to have a clean and relaxing room to walk into at night to help relieve some of her stress. She told me I don’t have to do that but I kept doing it anyways. After a couple days, she started making it before I got out of the shower. I saw it and thought “aww, that’s cute!” and proceeded to tighten the sheets and comforter so tight my Marine Corps drill instructors would have been proud! She’s now thanking me every morning.
So I just got home from work and we had the discussion about last night. She was overcome with anxiety as soon as I laid down and didn’t sleep all night. She told me she realized that it was a reaction from all the nights she laid awake at night with panic attacks and I just laid there sleeping with my back to her. I listened and validated.
She said the last 2 weeks have been good and we’re becoming friends again but she was not ready for me to be in our bed. I listened and validated and never offered to leave or suggest she leave.
She was pissed that I just did it with no prior conversation and felt like I was being selfish for not thinking about her and how it would affect her. (I knew she’d be anxious but that would happen whether it was now or a year from now).
I explained that I’ve been working to identify the major generators of negativity in my life, determining which ones I can change and taking steps toward that positive change. I have identified sleeping in the basement as a major generator of negativity in my life that is detrimental to both my mental and physical health (I’ve been drinking more so I can get out of my head and fall asleep and even then I’m lucky to get 5 hours a night). I also identified this as something I can control and so I took action. I mentioned that I had played out 100 different scenarios on how to approach it and no single one jumped out as a winner. I decided that I needed to put my new found confidence and self respect to the test and just do it. I explained that I can see how this comes across as selfish but that’s not where I was coming from. I need to work on me and sometimes that will appear selfish.
She misconstrued a situation from Monday night so badly that I was able to prove her wrong with our texts. (Perhaps a bad idea?) She’s been dealing with a cold and I’ve offered to pick up dinner every night this week. She said it would have helped for me to pick up dinner Monday night but I did actually offer and sat in the grocery store parking lot for 10 minutes waiting on a response before heading home only to receive the response as I was pulling into the neighborhood. From there, I went into homeowner mode racing against the sun to mark my sprinklers so the lawn could be aerated the next day. She took it as selfish because she had to make dinner when she wasn’t feeling well. (I didn’t eat dinner that night). The topic of me spending so much time with her (family time) has been stressing her out and it’s selfish of me for not backing off. I still listened and validated while not letting myself be a push over.
I have a habit of over apologizing so I was sure to do it only once. At the end of the conversation I apologized for causing her anxiety.
Conclusion/Takeaways:
* She’s decided to stay in the guest room for now
* She acknowledged that I’m moving at a much more rapid pace for self improvement than her and I explained that my changes aren’t all gradual. I have some immediate 180’s I need to pull and I can’t wait to stay on the same page.
* I mentioned that her words “I need to work on myself before we can work on us” is the approach I’ve decided to take until she’s ready to work on us.
* She mentioned that we have been making progress on us indirectly. She doesn’t want to sweep the past under the rug and I whole heartedly agreed.
*I’ve missed so much family time the past couple years and have a whole new appreciation and find so much joy in it now. How do I detach and still spend time with the family?
* She’s resumed her IC search. She got discouraged when her first 3 choices didn’t pan out and gave up for a week or so. She left 4 new voicemails today!
I’m back to sleeping alone but at least I’ll be in a comfortable place and I’ve shed a significant stressor in my current life.
JR,
The good:
Your back in your bed even if you are sleeping alone
Sounds like she hasn't checked out of the marriage and wants to work on herself
The bad
Way too much talking. Actions not words. Don't talk about the changes you are making just make them. Talk is cheap and if you don't follow through she'll be thinking same ole JR.
Don't prove her wrong through texts. Just validate her feelings.
Give her all the time and space she needs.
Hey JR
Sounds like you're doing well buddy!
I'll second LH19 with way too much talking and actions over words, time and space etc.
I noticed you mentioned drinking. 180 on that and stop the drinking.
To the cat analogy, I'd recommend the picnic analogy. I dont know where it is on the forum, but I think someone quoted it recently (maybe Another Stander??).
I noticed you mentioned working on negativity. I had that big time, and am working on it in IC. Look to your childhood. It's probably an emotional defence mechanism subconsciously imparted when you were a child. Look into internal family systems. It's all about childhood.
Good luck mate!
I hear you both (LH19 and DS9) regarding the talking too much. I think I just now realized that it’s one of the things she wanted...but it’s too late.
It’s just hard because when she engages in convo I’m 100% ready and engaged. Full eye contact, listening, repeating, validating. I can’t say nothing though because I see her looking for a response (body language) and it’s a chance for us to work on the R. I’m having a hard time drawing the line between “what I should be doing now” vs. what I know I used to do, should have been doing all along, and want to do again. Where is the line of “too much talking”? How do I show I can be the man I used to be and confide in her as a *friend* by doing the same old and not sharing with her (*She brought up the “we were doing well at becoming friends again” during the bed retake convo insinuating I set us back.)
This is the daily struggle and while I feel like I’m finally off eggshells around her, I still don’t know how to properly engage with her.
I noticed you mentioned drinking. 180 on that and stop the drinking.
Copy that. I know and have known. I have a few crutches I’m working on ditching and that’s the first to go. I hadn’t had a beer on a weekday in months prior to BD. Time to get that s back on track. Getting back in my own bed was the first step.
*completely random (edited to re-emphasize)
For anyone reading that has an appreciation for 90’s music; namely Goo Goo Dolls, or anyone who currently enjoys Imagine Dragons;
Check out the Goo Goo Dolls new album ‘Miracle Pill’. The first 3-4 songs will become your new gym songs. The entire album feels like Johnny Reziznick has been reading all of these posts for years and summed it all up in an hour. It’s amazing to hear the same songs over and over and feeling different emotions each time.
Summary: The underlying theme is “starting all over” (Miracle Pill). The loss of SO is clearly present but the focus is the understanding of past mistakes and new beginning. Overall, if you’re going to have a song stuck in your head on any given day, play song 1-3 (I’m now hooked on 4) on repeat and stay positive.
*edit: I used to be really into music and finding new off-radio music. I lost that over time and am re-discovering this simple joy. I’ve listened to this entire album at least 15 times over the past 2 weeks including 2 times tonight. I keep drawing from it. There’s a lot of positivity to be found in places you may have forgot to look!
Keep your head up and eyes forward!
Man I grew up in the 90s, those were the times and life was so much easier! I love the Goo Goo Dolls so I'm checking this out. Thanks
Uugh - Goo Goo Dolls! Seriously guys ;-) (just kidding)
Grew up in the 90's too - best decade ever. Live, STP, Paw, Urge Overkill, Offspring, Garbage, Bush - now you're talking!
Really impressed you took back the bedroom. Most of us are slow to find the courage to do what will save our relationships. Be proud, and good luck!
JR,
Holding eye contact, listening, validating are all great things so keep it up. Slow down on the talking about improving yourself. Words don't mean jack $hit only actions do.
One of the challenges for newbies is they have no idea how long the time lines for their sitches to play out. Five years I left for a few days after a fight to stay with a friend. I thought everything would be fixed by the end of the week. Two and a half years later my ex filed for divorce.
You absolutely have a chance here if you can stay out of your own way. Slow and steady wins the race.
I explained that I’ve been working to identify the major generators of negativity in my life, determining which ones I can change and taking steps toward that positive change. I have identified sleeping in the basement as a major generator of negativity in my life that is detrimental to both my mental and physical health (I’ve been drinking more so I can get out of my head and fall asleep and even then I’m lucky to get 5 hours a night). I also identified this as something I can control and so I took action. I mentioned that I had played out 100 different scenarios on how to approach it and no single one jumped out as a winner. I decided that I needed to put my new found confidence and self respect to the test and just do it. I explained that I can see how this comes across as selfish but that’s not where I was coming from. I need to work on me and sometimes that will appear selfish.
WHAT THE HELLLLLL brother we just all commended you for responding to her with a "yes" and nothing more and not wasting your time with long wordy explanations, and then you turn around the very next day and lay a long wordy explanation on her. FAIL! Be the alpha male of the house. You sleep in the master bed period. She doesn't like it you listen and validate- "I understand why you feel that way." "So you'll go back to the basement?" "No." "But blah blah blah!" "Yes I can tell this is a struggle for you." "So you'll sleep in the basement?" "No." Listen and validate, don't explain or reason or negotiate.
She misconstrued a situation from Monday night so badly that I was able to prove her wrong with our texts. (Perhaps a bad idea?) She’s been dealing with a cold and I’ve offered to pick up dinner every night this week. She said it would have helped for me to pick up dinner Monday night but I did actually offer and sat in the grocery store parking lot for 10 minutes waiting on a response before heading home only to receive the response as I was pulling into the neighborhood. From there, I went into homeowner mode racing against the sun to mark my sprinklers so the lawn could be aerated the next day. She took it as selfish because she had to make dinner when she wasn’t feeling well. (I didn’t eat dinner that night). The topic of me spending so much time with her (family time) has been stressing her out and it’s selfish of me for not backing off. I still listened and validated while not letting myself be a push over.
I have a habit of over apologizing so I was sure to do it only once. At the end of the conversation I apologized for causing her anxiety.
An alpha male wouldn't sit in the parking lot waiting for a reply. You said you would get dinner, then get dinner. She doesn't say what she wants, then get whatever YOU want and take it home. She doesn't like it? Then she should have replied.
* She’s decided to stay in the guest room for now
Your attitude should be you don't care where she sleeps. On you, next to you, in the bathtub, wherever. Not your problem.
* She acknowledged that I’m moving at a much more rapid pace for self improvement than her and I explained that my changes aren’t all gradual. I have some immediate 180’s I need to pull and I can’t wait to stay on the same page.
* I mentioned that her words “I need to work on myself before we can work on us” is the approach I’ve decided to take until she’s ready to work on us.
Quit explaining everything!! ACTIONS not WORDS.
* She mentioned that we have been making progress on us indirectly. She doesn’t want to sweep the past under the rug and I whole heartedly agreed.
Man, thats great that she's acknowledging progress. Sounds like you guys are able to talk about your R. Last time I did that with my wife she said it made her nauseous lol
WHAT THE HELLLLLL brother we just all commended you for responding to her with a "yes" and nothing more and not wasting your time with long wordy explanations, and then you turn around the very next day and lay a long wordy explanation on her. FAIL! Be the alpha male of the house. You sleep in the master bed period. She doesn't like it you listen and validate- "I understand why you feel that way." "So you'll go back to the basement?" "No." "But blah blah blah!" "Yes I can tell this is a struggle for you." "So you'll sleep in the basement?" "No." Listen and validate, don't explain or reason or negotiate.
I think I’m starting to get it. Like I said though, she said we needed to “talk about last night” and I complied. I’ve been seizing any opportunity she presents in regards to opening a conversation. Should I have dismissed this conversation before it started?
An alpha male wouldn't sit in the parking lot waiting for a reply. You said you would get dinner, then get dinner. She doesn't say what she wants, then get whatever YOU want and take it home. She doesn't like it? Then she should have replied.
Just to provide some context here: she works from home and I knew she wasn’t feeling well and that she was still on a work call at the time so I waited to give her a chance to reply.
Your attitude should be you don't care where she sleeps. On you, next to you, in the bathtub, wherever. Not your problem.
That’s exactly how I handled it. She said she was going to sleep in the first room and I smiled and said ok.
Quit explaining everything!! ACTIONS not WORDS.
Copy that
Remember this: Less words are always more powerful.
* She’s decided to stay in the guest room for now
Time to make the room yours.
Google this "Masculine Comforter Set"
Do this on the way home tonight:
Buy new sheets, Masculine Comforter, New "Manly" picture for the wall. They all should be cohesive.
When you get home, go into the room, put some music on and move the bed to a new location. Put the new sheets and comforter on. Hange the picture. Start sleeping on "her" side of the bed from this point forward.
I think I’m starting to get it. Like I said though, she said we needed to “talk about last night” and I complied. I’ve been seizing any opportunity she presents in regards to opening a conversation. Should I have dismissed this conversation before it started?
If she wants to have a talk then you let her talk. But don't say anything back to her other than simple validating comments. Here's an example: "We need to talk, we need to get this divorce going ASAP, I can't take this anymore." "You sound frustrated, is that how you feel?" "Yes I'm very frustrated that you are not helping me with this divorce!" "I can tell you are frustrated, I am sorry you are struggling with this." "Good, so you will help me with the divorce?" "No, I do not want a divorce, but if you wish to pursue that I will not stand in your way." "How dare you blah blah blah!" "I know this is difficult for you." The point is don't argue/ beg/ plead/ negotiate/ reason just remain neutral no matter how emotional she gets.
That’s exactly how I handled it. She said she was going to sleep in the first room and I smiled and said ok.
Good!
Remember this: Less words are always more powerful.
Time to make the room yours.
Google this "Masculine Comforter Set"
Do this on the way home tonight:
Buy new sheets, Masculine Comforter, New "Manly" picture for the wall. They all should be cohesive.
When you get home, go into the room, put some music on and move the bed to a new location. Put the new sheets and comforter on. Hange the picture. Start sleeping on "her" side of the bed from this point forward.
I see what you’re getting at. I have some ideas that I can implement to make the room more “mine” but it’ll have to wait until next week. Between trick-or-treating tonight and my hunting trip with my son this weekend I’ll have plenty of time to think about what I really want to do with it and can start Monday after work. She’s going to be so pissed. Is that the reaction I’m really looking for at this point?
Better even than sleeping on "her" side: STARFISH.
She’s going to be so pissed. Is that the reaction I’m really looking for at this point?
You are not doing to get a reaction. You are doing it because you decided it was time to change it up. It is your room. She moved out.
If she gets pissed, validate her feelings.
If she questions you, simple answer:
"I like this better"
Better even than sleeping on "her" side: STARFISH.
I am confused. Can you elaborate?
Better even than sleeping on "her" side: STARFISH.
I am confused. Can you elaborate?
I think he means spread out all over the bed. It's what I started doing, and after a while I realized I LIKED IT
I think he means spread out all over the bed. It's what I started doing, and after a while I realized I LIKED IT
Ahhh yes. Thanks for clarifying.
Good family night trick-or-treating with the kids. My brother came over for it and that always helps make her feel more comfortable. He’s Great with the kids and just a funny guy in general so he can always get us both laughing.
Day to day is great and it’s still like everything is completely normal. It’s still always that awkward evening and morning routine where we pass each other in the hallway as we switch kids rooms to tuck them in. There was always a grab of the hand, slap on the butt, hip check, whatever. Sometimes we’d both just stop for a hug and a quick kiss. Now it’s just figuring out who’s going which way so we can take the path that maintains the most distance between us. Sometimes a “goodbye” or “have a good day” before I leave for work but I think I’m the only one that says that anymore. I usually try to leave when she’s out of the kitchen so I can just sneak out and avoid the awkwardness.
It’ll be difficult to “take over the room” because she hasn’t moved out technically. She just sleeps in the next room. We still use the same bathroom and all her clothes are still in there (same as when I was in the basement). I could be wrong but I think she feels like I pushed her out of the bedroom and she has some resentment. The truth is, I don’t want it to be my room. She’s welcome back in the bed anytime so I don’t want to make her build more resentment and feel like her decision to leave is justified and have no desire to come back.
Better even than sleeping on "her" side: STARFISH.
I am confused. Can you elaborate?
I think he means spread out all over the bed. It's what I started doing, and after a while I realized I LIKED IT
That’s probably gonna happen tonight haha!
I'm going to try this!
When this all started, we were both sleeping in different sofas. Then I asked my W to please sleep in the master bedroom, she told me "that's not MY bed". One night I wanted to give her some space and I slept on the floor of the room.
Then I said, what the heck am I doing, and just rearranged the room and slept in my bed. It feels so good, and I don't feel bad at all because I offered and she declined.
Happy you had a good halloween man. I know what you mean about the day to day...For the most part, it's business as usual. Wake up, make sure our son is ready for school, make breakfast etc...
I definitely miss the little things like you've mentioned...passing by in the hallway for a quick embrace, grabbing her from behind to kiss on her neck etc...It's been almost 4 months since we've shared that kind of love and affection. Anyway, I need to stop. It messes me up reminiscing like that.
I’m doing great at GAL and staying busy. I realized last night when I flipped the tv on in bed that I haven’t sat down to watch TV in weeks. The last show I watched was the S2E2 of Seal Team. The DVR is full of my I watched shows and I’ve realized that it’s because I can’t sit in my chair and relax anymore. It’s one of the physical wedges that I unknowingly put in place. I love that chair and we used to sit in it together occasionally or I’d sometimes move to the couch to sit next to her while we watched a show together. Eventually she quit coming to sit next to me and I reciprocated until we no longer sat next to each other at all. We realized the only shows we have in common now are SWAT and Survivor (family show). She watches a lot of garbage tv (and she fully admits it’s garbage). She says it’s so she doesn’t have to focus on plot lines and just uses it as a tool to escape her head. I re-arranged the furniture about a week ago to try to get the chair out of view of the TV but the way our living room is set up, it just doesn’t work. I can’t sit there comfortably anymore and it’s too awkward to sit on the couch so I just don’t watch TV anymore. Not a bad change but I do miss a couple of my shows. I may have to have a Sunday me day where I’ll go to the basement and binge everything for one lazy day.
I think I need to read up more on detachment and how to apply it in my sitch. With the holidays coming up, I want to spend family time together, but she told me doing so much Halloween stuff together the past couple weeks was a little much for her. We were invited to my Aunt and Uncle’s for Thanksgiving and since we split years with family and this is my year, I asked her to think about what she’d like to do and that we were invited prior to BD. They reached out this week for RSVP’s and I told my W I need to reply but no rush. This was on Tuesday and I sold her I’d like to reply by the end of the week. She told me yesterday that I can reply with a yes which was a bit of a relief because I didn’t want to spend TG away from my kids.
Now I just need to figure out how to maintain a positive family atmosphere while detaching from her.
It’s still always that awkward evening and morning routine where we pass each other in the hallway as we switch kids rooms to tuck them in. There was always a grab of the hand, slap on the butt, hip check, whatever. Sometimes we’d both just stop for a hug and a quick kiss. Now it’s just figuring out who’s going which way so we can take the path that maintains the most distance between us.
An old guy I worked with told me this joke once: "There are three phases of sex in marriage. The first is right after you get married and have sex all over the house. The second is when you have kids and have sex in the bedroom with the door locked. The third is when the kids have moved out and you're older and you pass each other in the hallway and say 'f*** you'" Had forgotten that joke until reading your post, haha! Hopefully you're not there yet!
Sometimes a “goodbye” or “have a good day” before I leave for work but I think I’m the only one that says that anymore. I usually try to leave when she’s out of the kitchen so I can just sneak out and avoid the awkwardness.
You keep doing you. Don't let her make you second guess who you are. When I was in college I went on a foreign study program and lived with other kids for 6 months. In the mornings I would greet everyone when passing in the hallways or in the classrooms, just "good morning" or "hey how's it going." One time one of them said to me "how can you always be so happy in the mornings, that drives me crazy." After some thought I decided that was HER problem, not mine! If I choose to be happy and polite to others and they don't like it, then they can sit there and stew about it, I'm not going to change who I am. Right? So tell her "good morning", "goodbye", "have a nice day." If she doesn't like it then that's her problem.
I could be wrong but I think she feels like I pushed her out of the bedroom and she has some resentment. The truth is, I don’t want it to be my room. She’s welcome back in the bed anytime so I don’t want to make her build more resentment and feel like her decision to leave is justified and have no desire to come back.
Yes she probably does resent it. Like I said above, her problem. This isn't about getting her to like you, it's about RESPECT. She may be angry and resentful, but she can't help but respect you when you stand up for yourself.
When this all started, we were both sleeping in different sofas. Then I asked my W to please sleep in the master bedroom, she told me "that's not MY bed". One night I wanted to give her some space and I slept on the floor of the room.
Then I said, what the heck am I doing, and just rearranged the room and slept in my bed. It feels so good, and I don't feel bad at all because I offered and she declined.
GOOD! Even if she didn't decline you have no reason to feel bad about sleeping in your own damn bed though.
I haven’t posted in a few days. I’m still roaming through a range of emotions. I had a great hunting trip with my son (almost 8) and we both had a lot of fun together. I’ve been seeing the same anxiety in my son that my wife has around me. She told me he’s really afraid of disappointing me and is afraid of me getting mad at him. I’ve been spending a lot of time with him lately and talking with him. Last Sunday, after we spent the afternoon together designing and carving his pumpkin, he stood at the top of the stairs before bed just looking at me smiling and I did the same. I saw a look from him that I haven’t seen in a long time. I think he’s seeing the changes I’ve made in my attitude and approach to my family and it was the first time I’ve felt like it’s making an impact.
I can’t get the same read off my daughter (9) because we have a great relationship and she’s my biggest fan. Last night she broke my heart as I went in to tuck her in for bed. She’s been sleeping in the guest room for a while now because she doesn’t like her loft and the guest bed is more comfortable. We’ve been trying to re-design her bedroom but she’s having a hard time deciding how she wants it so we haven’t ordered anything for it. When I walked in, she was settling in with a large stuffed dolphin in the middle of the bed. She was left with a sliver of the bed to sleep in. I asked her if she had enough room and she said “not really but mom needs the dolphin between us and I’ve been dealing with it for a week now so I’m getting used to it.”
My heartbreak turned to anger because our daughter is suffering because I moved back into our room and my W took over her bed. I was mad at myself at first but it quickly turned to my W because she doesn’t seem to care. If she’s that hell bent on not sleeping in our bed, she has plenty of other options (basement, couch, daughters bed, or even sons top bunk. Part of me wants to find my D a new bed but that feels like I’m helping my W get more comfortable outside our bed. I’m torn right now but my D has to be my #1 priority.
Detaching has become easier as I have been staying extremely busy between family (mostly kids) time, house/yard work, and finding time to work on some of my own projects that I’ve been putting off. It’s also easier as I’ve realized that the trust in our R is completely gone. We have different views of trust and I know my wife doesn’t trust that I’m actually changing. I’m fine with that...can’t control it. What I’m struggling with is the fact that I thought I still trusted my W to be completely honest with me but I realize now that I really don’t. I don’t know where her head is these days and she seems to be rather secretive about some things. She had a “free night” on Friday since I had our S and our D was at a sleepover. She never told me what she had planned and I never really asked. I got nervous when I woke up at 5:00 am on Saturday and realized she never texted me that she was home safe. We always text each other to let the other know we made it home safe when one of us is out of town. I decided to check the security cameras to see if her car was in the driveway. It wasn’t. I checked the interior camera and saw the dog sleeping home alone on the stairs which means she probably didn’t eat dinner and wasn’t let out. This all pissed me off.
When I got home, she told me she went out with a girlfriend (W of a college buddy who has always been infatuated with my W) who is going through their own M issues. She said she stayed the night there and came home early. I don’t know if I believe her or not. Yesterday I walked into the living room where she was watching TV and texting on her phone. I took a quick glance at the phone as just saw a big “heart” emoji on the screen. I think she saw me glance and quickly switched to the internet page. It very well could have been her cousin that she is in constant communication with, but I don’t know. She’s offered her phone to me in the past and I always refuse because I trust her. I really want to check her phone now just to find out, but I don’t want to give her a chance to clear it. I don’t know her password but my kids do. I don’t want to ask them for it but I don’t know how else to go about it.
I’m starting to get frustrated at the absolute lack of progress. She said we need to work on ourselves before we can work on the M, but she’s taken absolutely no initiative to take the first step in any of it. We have no problem talking, joking, laughing, and discussing what the week’s agenda looks like, but any physical closeness ceases to exist. To put it in context, I’ve been having some pain behind my shoulder blade for a couple months now and have mentioned it to her a couple times. The other day I caught a glimpse of my back after a shower and saw a golf all sized knot just off my shoulder blade. Google says this is the result of stress which makes perfect sense. She walked in on me trying to stretch it out and grimacing in pain and asked what’s wrong. She felt the knot for a second and said “that’s not good. You should see a doctor. I’d look it up for you but it’ll just say you have cancer.” She offered to use her roller and tried it for a few minutes but it did nothing so I told her she could stop. Any other day prior to the last month, she would have immediately went to work on it with her hands but now that’s physical touch and she’s not having any of it. How can she act like everything is great when we’re together but can’t stand to be within 2 feet of me physically? It’s making me wonder if this is something that can actually be saved. Am I just wasting my time? I feel like I’m in a much better place to move on without her and maybe I need to start considering this as a viable option.
When you get home, go into the room, put some music on and move the bed to a new location. Put the new sheets and comforter on. Hange the picture. Start sleeping on "her" side of the bed from this point forward.
^^^Savage..
I have moved my pillows to the center and now sprawl out across the entire bed. She walked in and noticed a couple times (watching TV one night and as I was trying to fall asleep last night) but hasn’t said anything. I completely cleaned my side of the bedroom last night...I mean spotless. Her stuff is still all over the place and I’m thinking about boxing it up and moving it to the closet since I don’t see her taking any initiative to do it herself. I’m starting to care a lot less about how she’ll react and I’m done waiting for her to start caring about these things because she’s moving in the wrong direction and becoming more neglectful of even meaningful things so how can I expect her to care about the little things?
God what a mind f%#* today has been.
I came home frustrated with my 2nd IC session because I think I have to start my search over. Just not vibing with her. Both sessions have included 10 minutes on the benefits of yoga (she teaches classes so I’ve learned). I did the quick math and realized I’ve paid her over $30 to give me sales pitches on yoga. Today was a lot of repeating myself and I walked away more frustrated than when I walked in. I’ll start looking again tomorrow.
My wife was outside “getting her steps in” while still on a work call when I got home and I just went to work emptying the dishwasher and taking the garbage out. I stepped out to the garage to take the recycling out just as she was heading back in (still on her call). I stepped aside so she could pass and she gave what I call her “happy wave” to me and reached out and touched my arm as she walked by. That’s the first time she’s voluntarily touched me in nearly a month! I know better than to read too much into it but it blew my mind. If nothing else, it took my confidence up a notch. There may be some drops of water rolling down her walls of ice.
I‘ve been reading up some more on how to implement loving detachment in my sitch. *Remember that I’ve been quite detached (in the completely wrong way) from our M for quite some time now and I’m trying to change the “same old” routine.
The things I think I’ve been doing right:
I’ve haven’t initiated any conversation unless it’s relevant to everyday life.
When we find ourselves in the same room and she initiates conversation I walk away as soon as there’s a brief pause.
I haven’t initiated any texts, but always reply, and try not to be the last to reply.
I keep myself busy all the time and can move throughout the house confidently and casually as though she’s not even there.
Spend the quality family time at dinner and help the kids with homework and school projects then disappear for a while and read, watch tv, work out, etc. Come back near bed time and then make myself scarce again once they’re tucked in.
The things I think I need to work on:
-Don’t overdo the housework. Don’t take on more than I can handle as a regular routine. Do the dishes every night that she cooks but only do kids laundry every other week.
-Don’t come across as needy. My shoulder is killing me and I need to suck it up and not show weakness. I don’t need her sympathy so don’t give her the opportunity to decide whether or not she wants to show it.
-Always keep a positive attitude. Acknowledge issues but offer solutions.
*Tonight W told me she has to travel for work on my busiest week of the year. I said that’s my hell week at work and it’s usually long hours (as she knows) but I’ll flip my daily schedule so that I’m doing project prep work while I’m there and then come home and log back on after the kids go to bed to do my daily work.
-GAL. While I’ve been staying busy at home, I need to get out more during the week. Even if just one night a week.
*I packed my range bag tonight so I can drop off after work tomorrow and try out a couple new guns I haven’t had a chance to shoot yet.
*W invited me to a family wedding on Saturday a couple hours away. Her cousin and her H are hosting a knife throwing tournament that night so I kindly declined the wedding invite. She’s not happy she has to miss it but it was a nice feeling to have no desire to spend this Saturday with my wife haha!
I’m starting to have fun on my own and able to forget about the sitch here and there. I’m starting to really like the changes I’m making. At this point, I just need to maintain consistency and keep faith that I can withstand the time.
I forgot one for the things I’m doing right:
- Be decisive.
*Yesterday W was trying to figure out how to manage grocery shopping (she hates doing it with the kids) and going to JOAnne fabrics for school project supplies (kids have to be there to pick stuff out). I told her to give me a list of supplies and I’ll take the kids so she can go grocery shopping. She shot me a look and said “really? You’ve never even been to JoAnnes, have no idea what you’re in for taking them and you’re volunteering for this?” I said “I have an idea of what I’m in for but may be underestimating it. What do we need?”
*Tonight she couldn’t decide between breakfast burritos or meatball sandwiches for dinner. She used to ask me but I never gave her an answer. Tonight I didn’t wait for her to ask and just answered “breakfast burritos” and she just said “cool” and started in on it. We talked a bit while she was prepping and once it got quiet, I disappeared.
I’m starting to have fun on my own and able to forget about the sitch here and there. I’m starting to really like the changes I’m making. At this point, I just need to maintain consistency and keep faith that I can withstand the time.
That's great man! I'm still falling in and out of a depressed state. Some days I feel strong, some weak -you know the deal. During work, i've been able to hold it together a bit better, but last Saturday I was home alone as the W went to work, and my S spent some time with his cousins. Being alone at home is torture for me. I need to figure something else out for the weekends. Maybe I'll go on a weekend climbing trip with my son and some buddies.
What else is hard is that my W has been working late 3 nights a week, this last time she worked and texted that she'll be having drinks with her friends. I end up not being able to sleep when she's not home (of course my insecurities get to me). when i do finally sleep, she comes home and then wakes me up- then I have to restart the process of falling asleep. Looking at going to the doc for some sleep meds
Hi Breakfast burritos,
I believe you are on the right path. Keep up the positive changes.
BD was on 10/8 when my W told me she’s unhappy in our M and has been for years. I too have been unhappy for just as long. We’ve tried working things out about every 6 months for the past 2 years but nothing ever changed. This time was different and she told me she’s done trying and not sure she wants to be married to me anymore. I made all the common mistakes to try anything to keep her from leaving me until I found this community and started buying into the advice found here.
I’ve decided to start a new thread because I’m in a different place now than when I first posted. My first thread is all over the place much like my emotions the past few weeks. Im no longer questioning where I stand, but instead I’m letting go of the questions I can’t answer for myself. I may or may not ever find those answers, so for now, there’s no point in letting them control me. I’m finding myself and learning that detachment, applied appropriately, does work; not only for my M, but for myself too. I’ve been so consumed with my R with my WAW, that I wasn’t truly focusing on myself...until now.
A lot of things have come to light the past few days and I’ve gained some clarity as to what I need to do, how to do it, and most importantly; why I’m doing it.
What I need to do:
-Lovingly detach from my WAW.
-GAL
-Stay positive
-Continue to implement permanent and sustainable 180’s
How do I do it:
-Do not continue to be absent in the R, but detach from trying to initiate ANYTHING with my W. Be present when I need to be, communicate positively and concisely and then fade away to find something to keep me busy and give her space.
-Get our more. Accept more invites. Find new hobbies.
-Change how I react to certain situations. First recognize the negative reaction I would usually have and consciously change it to break the cycle.
-Don’t overcompensate for lost time. That’s in the past and cannot be changed. Focus first on little things I can change on a daily basis until it just becomes part of who I am and my daily routine. Make some big changes too but ensure it’s sustainable. W is looking for a backwards step to indicate I’m falling back into my old ways. It’s what she’s expecting. Break that cycle!
Why am I doing it:
For me. Find my own happiness and independence. Realize I can live my own life and if my W chooses to continue to be a part of it, then I’ve won! If she decides she needs to leave, I still win because I’ll be happy with myself either way and I’ll be ready to start a new life on my own.
Just a few updates on my sitch:
I had my 2nd IC session yesterday and am not so impressed as of yet. I’ve decided to give it one more shot next week before I start searching for a new IC
W is still staying in the guest room since I took my bed back a little over a week ago. (I spent 4 nights in a hotel and then a couple weeks in the basement when I came home)
W touched my arm yesterday as she walked by. It’s the first time she’s initiated any physical contact since we hugged a couple times when we agreed we’d both work on ourselves to see if there’s any hope for the M; nearly a month ago.
This morning, we had a quick, confusing, but funny convo about who’s ear buds are who’s. We were confusing each other and both just stopped and laughed. I had one foot out the door when she walked up and gave me a hug.
-This has proven to me that a single person can make changes that can impact the entire family (W included). I have never been a morning person and pre BD, I could easily leave the house with minimal energy and talking every morning. I’ve been waking up an hour earlier for the past few weeks to work out and by the time I’m ready to leave for work, I have more energy and am in such a better mood. It’s changed the entire family dynamic in the morning and it feels great.
Awesome update JR! In IC no not settle. Nothing wrong with shopping around for an IC that is best for you. You will know when you have a good fit. I'm supportive of giving the current IC one more shot. The important thing is not to give up. I've seen too many posters just write off IC totally because they had a bad C, there are good ones out there and it is worthwhile continuing to look until you find one!
In addition to Steve's IC advice:
I find IC to be a nice supplement to my self-improvement, but not the primary driver. DB forums, reading, meditation, exercise, and general PMA/GAL have all contributed just as strongly.
Also, not sure this is the case for you, but I used to take a passive approach and "trust the process" with IC. I've learned that it's up to me to steer the direction I want things to go. I'm much more satisfied with counseling now because I go into sessions with an agenda of what I want to tackle.
Awesome update JR! In IC no not settle. Nothing wrong with shopping around for an IC that is best for you. You will know when you have a good fit. I'm supportive of giving the current IC one more shot. The important thing is not to give up. I've seen too many posters just write off IC totally because they had a bad C, there are good ones out there and it is worthwhile continuing to look until you find one!
Thank you Steve. I was ready to start searching today, but I’ve already invested time and money with this C and want to give it one more chance. I understand the importance of sleep, diet, and exercise but that’s all the feedback I’ve received so far. Too much focus on the past few weeks and no acknowledgment of the changes I’ve implemented since then. Yoga does not interest me but I considered it after the first session. After another 10 minute sled pitch on her yoga class yesterday during “my time”, I’m now completely turned off to it. I’m ready to dig into some real issues and if it doesn’t start happening in session 3, it’ll be time to move on.
Another break through today! W called/texted me to let me know the dogs meds were ready for pick up if I wanted to stop by on my way home from work. I was already just down the street voting and didn’t want to go back out so I just went home and told her I’ll pick them up tomorrow. She said she’s exhausted and not up for cooking so she’d run out and grab the meds and dinner but wasn’t sure what to get. Old me: “whatever sounds good to you”. Instead I said “why don’t we call in a pick up order to this great Italian place right around the corner from the vet?” Kids went nuts (9D loves pasta and 7S will eat pizza 3 times a day) and she pulled up the menu and placed the order. She seemed happy just to not have to think about it.
After dinner we talked for a couple minutes and couldn’t believe how exhausted we both were so early. She mentioned watching a tv show together tonight and I asked if we could table it for another night so we could both get some sleep. She agreed. We have one show that we have in common and we’ve been saving the new episodes on DVR so we could eventually watch them together. Just the fact that she wants to spend an hour together fills me with hope.
If this would have happened a week ago, I would have jumped at the opportunity but now that I’m in full on detachment mode, it felt great to entertain the offer but decline for the night...and actually mean it! Of course I want to spend time with my W but #1.) I’m tired and want to sleep. #2.) I don’t want her thinking I’m going to be her puppy and right at her feet when she’s ready to spend time with me.
I’m extremely encouraged with the several small signs of progress over the past couple days but still need to take everything with a grain of salt and continue to detach. The more I think about it, I’m now beginning to realize the magnitude of detachment and GAL and how it’s the quick fix to implement immediate change, but these are things I will need to continue for the rest of my life; whether married or not.
I’ve made my W laugh the past two mornings. No hug today, but a laugh may be even better. I’m in such a better mood all the time now and while it started as me faking it, it’s now become very real and more natural. I’m still working on establishing a new daily routine but 3+ weeks of consistency in my 180’s is giving me confidence that I can make them permanent.
I’m fighting off the cold that my W is getting over (funny how I could avoid catching them when we had a physical R but I haven’t kissed her in over a month and now I catch it). I woke up this morning and almost convinced myself to stay in bed rather than get up and work out. Then I realized that was the old me trying to convince myself that skipping one day is ok. Then it turns into 2 and so on. The new me won and I forced myself out of bed! Change the old ways of thinking and make the 180’s permanent.
I have merged your two threads together. Please stick to one thread until you have reached 100 postings/replies. You can change your subject line at any time within a thread.
So I’m not sure if today is just a down day, but I’m letting my long fought suspicions get the best of me. I know the rules; always expect an A, but a part of me still has a strong trust in my W. As long as I’ve known her, she’s never lied to me (at least I’ve never caught her in one). I’ve expressed my concerns in the past and have outright asked her if she’s cheated on me and she’s always told me no; that’s not the type of person she is. She has to be in love before sex is an option. I know this to be true because she slept in my bed in college quite a bit when we were just friends and she had an out of town abusive boyfriend. Nothing ever happened despite my best efforts. I tried kissing her twice over the course of a year and was shut down both times because “I have a BF.” This is why I have held onto a few strands of trust and believed her a few weeks ago when I asked if she was having an EA (pre DB discovery) and she told me “no, I have a strong network of family, friends, and coworkers that I lean on now.”
I’m now realizing that she no longer loves me and therefore, it is much easier to lie to me. If she doesn’t love me, there’s a good chance she has found someone else to love and will lie to me to protect an AP. Like I said, I’ve had my suspicions for a while but have been suppressing them with trust...trust that I now realize hasn’t been real for a while.
These are the recent events that, up until tonight, I have been able to dismiss:
Friday night, D was going to a sleepover so I offered to take our S to the lake to go hunting and give her a free night (give her space). When I woke up at 5:00 am and realized she never texted me that she was home safe, I checked the security camera to see if her car was in the driveway and it wasn’t. She told me she was out with a friend (who is contemplating a D) and stayed at their house. I never asked where she was, she offered but knows I could have checked the cameras and had an answer in case I had. I dismissed it as “old paranoid me”.
Sunday afternoon, I walked into the kitchen while she was on her phone. I saw her text window up and a big “heart” emoji in the middle of the screen. This very well could be her cousin that she confides in so I would normally dismiss it except that as soon as she sensed my presence, she switched screens to her fantasy team and immediately said “oh come on! My team [censored]!” That seemed like a very knee jerk reaction especially since she won by over 70 points. Again I dismissed it...180 and change my way of thinking and dismiss it.
Tonight, while W was working with S on a school project, I walked into the living room and saw D playing with Snapchat or some type of pic filters on W’s phone so I sat down next to her and let her take funny pics of me. As soon as W realized what we were doing, she came and ripped the phone out of D’s hands and took it away. Kids play with her phone all the time and she’s never done that before. D and I both were deer in headlights and just sat there in shock for a few seconds.
That was my last red flag and the last few strands of trust have finally snapped. I’m doing well with detaching but this is devastating nonetheless. I have no proof and no real way to gain it. She has a company issued phone and computer so now way to check records. She has to change her passwords every couple weeks so no way to check without asking her. She’s offered her phone to me every time I ask about this and I always refuse and tell her I trust her. She offered it a few weeks ago and I wish I would have taken it the. Since she got scared tonight, I’m sure she’s laying in bed right now wiping her phone and e-mail. She knows she was obvious and that I picked up on it.
I know that if I confront her again and ask for her phone but find nothing, I will erase all progress I’ve made so far and even take a couple steps back. However, not knowing the truth will eat at me and fill me with doubt and cause me to withdraw from her even though we’ve been making progress on becoming friends again. Not knowing makes me not want to be her friend. I have no idea what to do.
I’ll keep up on my 180’s and GAL, but I know I’ll flip the tables and be the WAH if I find proof. I won’t put another ounce of effort into the MR if she’s been putting me through this hell just to have her cake and eat it too.
Not the note I want to end on tonight but this is my new reality. Limbo [censored] but I’ll stay here as long as it takes if there’s actually hope. However, I’ll cut the rope to fall wherever I land if need be. The knife’s out...how long do I hang on?
I’ll keep up on my 180’s and GAL, but I know I’ll flip the tables and be the WAH if I find proof. I won’t put another ounce of effort into the MR if she’s been putting me through this hell just to have her cake and eat it too.
Not the note I want to end on tonight but this is my new reality. Limbo [censored] but I’ll stay here as long as it takes if there’s actually hope. However, I’ll cut the rope to fall wherever I land if need be. The knife’s out...how long do I hang on?
Two things:
1) Have you seen her lie to anyone else?
2) "I have a BF" is a test. Nice guys fail the test. "I am married" doesn't stop Bad Boys. Unhappy wifes get tempted.
It is important not to go after her phone. If you need to know the truth, there are much better ways.
Unfortunately all the signs are there. It will come out eventually.
Two things:
1) Have you seen her lie to anyone else?
No. And that’s the part I can’t get past. She comes from an extremely religious background, is a genuinely sweet and humble person, and lying and cheating just don’t suit her at all. I have always held my trust because she is fully invested in her faith and this would go against everything she’s ever stood for. But if she has truly fallen out of love with me, and in love with someone else, would she throw away 20+ years of our R and everything it’s stood for just to protect an A with OM?
She knows I’m out the door if I find out so maybe she would?
...
She has to be in love before sex is an option. I know this to be true because she slept in my bed in college quite a bit when we were just friends and she had an out of town abusive boyfriend. Nothing ever happened despite my best efforts. I tried kissing her twice over the course of a year and was shut down both times because “I have a BF.”
...
Maybe we have different boundaries... but I would consider sleeping in your bed cheating. Especially if she led you on enough for you to try and kiss her. Not to mention that she ended up being with you.
[quote=JR425]
Maybe we have different boundaries... but I would consider sleeping in your bed cheating. Especially if she led you on enough for you to try and kiss her. Not to mention that she ended up being with you.
You’re absolutely right and I’ve thought about that quite a bit. She was very free spirited (and naive) in college. I had an on/off GF (she cheated on me, we tried to work it out, and ultimately I lost all respect for her and she became an occasional “late night call”) when we met. By the time I had ended it with GF, she had a new BF from out of state. After a couple months, he became verbally abusive and that lead to physical abuse. She started staying at my house on weekends because she was afraid he’d show up at her place in the night. I respected her and her beliefs so I did not push her boundaries although that’s the only thing I wanted In life at the time. I wanted to kill him for what he was doing to her and she knew it so she never let the two of us meet. However, through all the BS, she stayed loyal to him. I used to walk her home every weeknight over the course of a year and twice I tried to kiss her only to be shoved away because “she has a boyfriend”. As soon as she was completely free of him, she came right to me and we’ve been together ever since.
I’ve never physically harmed my W and have only raised my voice at her once a few months back when she wouldn’t met me walk away from an argument. If she stood by an abuser and remained faithful to him, could she actually be so far gone to go behind my back?
All of your W examples seem similar to my W. I walk by while she's on her phone, she always seems to be switching screens up so as to not let me see what she's actually doing. It's hard man
This morning as W was in the bedroom getting ready, I ran back in to grab my jacket and she said “we should go out for happy hour”. I said “that sounds good” and walked out. All I could think is that she’s still reeling from last night and trying to cover her tracks. I’m pretty sure she was expecting a text as my D and I played with her phone. It’s the only reason she’d rip it away from D like that. I missed my opportunity to confirm my suspicions. She’s going to be extra cautious now so finding proof just went from extremely difficult to nearly impossible.
Maybe I’m too far in my own head right now and just spiraling. She mentioned sitting down to watch a show together the other night. At the time, I was ecstatic but held my composure and asked for a rain check. Now all I can think is that maybe I missed another sign and that offer was a cover too. I can’t tell if we’re actually getting closer or if she’s just pulling me closer to try and throw me off the scent.
JR,
A couple days ago you were beaming with all the positive changes you were making. Now as of yesterday a couple red flags and now you are spiraling. That means the changes were for your W and won't stick. After reading your last two posts she is throwing you scraps with TV time and happy hours and you are eating it up. I just want to brace you that these situations get worse before they get better.
JR,
A couple days ago you were beaming with all the positive changes you were making. Now as of yesterday a couple red flags and now you are spiraling. That means the changes were for your W and won't stick. After reading your last two posts she is throwing you scraps with TV time and happy hours and you are eating it up. I just want to brace you that these situations get worse before they get better.
JR, please read LH's post slowly and carefully. We've all been on the rollercoaster. The key is to not let your W drive the rollercoaster, and you are still doing that.
That means the changes were for your W and won't stick. After reading your last two posts she is throwing you scraps with TV time and happy hours and you are eating it up. I just want to brace you that these situations get worse before they get better.
I respectfully disagree that the changes are for my W. I’ve been preparing myself for a D and to move on to a new life. That said, I have been hopeful that it won’t go that far. Either way, I know that I need to put myself in a better place. I have been very pessimistic for a while now and that’s one of my changes. Be optimistic. Prepare for the worst but hope for the best. Despite my spiraling last night and this morning, I changed the way I would usually act around my family while in that headspace this morning. I stayed positive and put on a happy face. The past week has been genuine happiness 95% of the time. Today I had to revert back to faking it, but I’m still maintaining my 180.
It’s just difficult to stay optimistic as I watch the hope slowly slip away. I don’t want my hope to change from hope for my MR to hope that I can confidently walk away from it, but that’s what I’m now preparing for.
Trying to GAL like crazy today. Mostly trying to avoid being home. W will see right through the fake happy face and I don’t want her to think I suspect anything so maybe she won’t become over cautious.
Just got back from the range. Shot two of my three new unfired pistols and have a new favorite nightstand gun! Home for a few to unload and change then heading to a bar to watch some football. Trying to make some plans for tomorrow night and then we’re both heading 2 hours in the opposite direction for the weekend. That should give me time to process and figure out what I’m going to do next.
JR,
Can you put a signature like mine below? Helps us with your sitch.
JR,
Can you put a signature like mine below? Helps us with your sitch.
Done. Thank you. I’m looking for all the help I can get right now.
I do
M:40 W:40
T:18 M:12
D:9 S:7
I think I have formalized my strategy. The fact is that I have no evidence of an A. I suspect it, and have for a while, but without proof, I can’t act on it. I can’t trust my gut because I don’t even know what it’s saying right now.
I have to stick to my original mission to win my wife back. Whether there’s an A or not, until I know for sure, that mission remains unchanged.
This is where it gets confusing. All logic here says I’m nowhere close to “dating” my wife, but she’s brought it up a couple times. I’m still not sure if that was her switching to “recovery” mode and over-reacting or if she’s actually starting to find me attractive again and really wants to spend time with me. Either way, I have to play this game to have a chance to win. I’m going to ask her out on a “date” (hear me out). Twice this week she’s alluded to a type of “date night”. She’s either trying to throw me off the scent, or she giving me the green light to pursue.
I know pursuing is a huge “no-no”. However, there are a couple ways to look at this (I already warned it’s confusing). Best case scenario: I am so far gone in my own head that I imagined her on a rocket ship when she was only on a hot air balloon. Meaning she was never that far gone that she could actually be coming back to me already.
Fallout: I’ve wasted all your time (I have to admit that I’d be ok with that).
Worst case scenario: She realizes how far she pushed me and that I’m gaining a better sense of what’s going on. She’s now “giving” a little in an attempt to keep me in the dark so she can keep eating her cake.
Fallout: TBD
Either way, asking her out isn’t going to be detrimental to me in any way. I can handle the rejection (don’t think it’ll happen but so what if it does?). One on one time might be exactly what I need to get a better reading on her. She’s picked up that I’ve been very distant over the past 24 hours but I can play that off with results of my doctors visit today. (Nothing major; just being 40 I guess). I can play the game with her because I’m in such a better position that I’m now looking out for myself; not us.
Background that I probably should have given a long time ago: She is an expert negotiator and has made her career out of it for a major tech company. I’ve called her out on “her eyes” when she enters work mode and treats me like a supplier. When I see that switch flip, I walk away. Can’t argue against a pro. That’s a boundary I’m going to have to set. Just haven’t read that far ahead yet.
No. And that’s the part I can’t get past. She comes from an extremely religious background, is a genuinely sweet and humble person, and lying and cheating just don’t suit her at all. I have always held my trust because she is fully invested in her faith and this would go against everything she’s ever stood for. But if she has truly fallen out of love with me, and in love with someone else, would she throw away 20+ years of our R and everything it’s stood for just to protect an A with OM?
This was my W to a "t". Very religious upbringing, very devout, heavy on the Catholic guilt and very worried about being the "good girl" and about what others would think. Sandi2 was a bit like this too. Thing is, this can ironically feed the rebellion dynamic in women that leads to waywardism. I had front row seat to this with my W... Alot of it came out and got explored in detail in MC. Bottom line, in MY wife's case it remained a beacon, however faint, and was
eventually a significant contributor to her "coming back" to the marriage. But don't for a second think that your religious "good girl" W can't become a WW and have an affair... Sometimes that background, in combo with the right factors, can be a
significant factor in them falling int waywardism and affairs.
Whether or not that's something you can live with and ultimately forgive is for you to decide...but you need to make room in your reality for that possibility, despite your W's good girl background
This was my W to a "t". Very religious upbringing, very devout, heavy on the Catholic guilt and very worried about being the "good girl" and about what others would think. Sandi2 was a bit like this too. Thing is, this can ironically feed the rebellion dynamic in women that leads to waywardism. I had front row seat to this with my W... Alot of it came out and got explored in detail in MC. Bottom line, in MY wife's case it remained a beacon, however faint, and was eventually a significant contributor to her "coming back" to the marriage. But don't for a second think that your religious "good girl" W can't become a WW and have an affair... Sometimes that background, in combo with the right factors, can be a
significant factor in them falling int waywardism and affairs.
Whether or not that's something you can live with and ultimately forgive is for you to decide...but you need to make room in your reality for that possibility, despite your W's good girl background
This is the struggle. There is no gray area here. She is either 100% innocent of all the ill charges I’ve brought up, or she’s not only cheated on me, but lied to me as well. If the latter, all trust is gone and without trust, there is no foundation. No foundation? Let’s go find somewhere else to build.
Sometimes I hate how logic applies. However, I can’t imagine life without it. I truly feel sorry for those that lack it because their reality is generally so far off base.
JR,
One of my favorite quotes that applies to these sitches sites" when decisions are made based on emotions there are bound to be consequences".
JR - I'm a logical thinker as well and used to see things as black or white. I've learned though that life has a whole bunch of grey. Humans are complicated.
Here is my thought: if your W is plain and simply a cheater and a liar then I agree to move on and find someone to build a long lasting relationship with (no guarantees though is there). But what if she's been struggling and was a bit lost, couldn't explain why, but does want to R down the road and be the person she was? What about empathy for her in this scenario?
This is also for me as I'm trying to be empathic to my W's situation (I think mental illness). If it comes out that she's just this person then I'm better off without her but if depression is a factor then it changes things. And to this point I have zero actual proof of an affair but I suspect there is/was one.
I find that logical thinkers often struggle with empathy.
JR,
One of my favorite quotes that applies to these sitches sites" when decisions are made based on emotions there are bound to be consequences".
Understood. I know better, but sometimes I can’t keep myself from slipping. Thanks for helping to reel me back in.
I find that logical thinkers often struggle with empathy.
I’ve never really thought about it this way. I preach empathy to my kids and am fully capable of it, but more often than not, I think I lack it.
W asked me again this morning if I’m doing ok. She said she feels like she hasn’t seen me the past couple days and I’ve been distant. I said I’m fine and just working through some things. She asked if we could talk tonight and I said yes. Damnit. I was trying to make plans in an attempt to avoid the convo but my buddy has to work late tonight so that fell through. She going to ask what’s going on and I’m going to fill her in on my doctors appt and the options I’m weighing. I’m hoping that will suffice as an answer to why I’ve been distant but she’s pretty good at seeing through me and knowing there’s more. Is it ok to let her know that I’m a little frustrated that she hasn’t made any effort to see an IC and that until she’s in a better place (her words), we’re not in a position to discuss some things? I just do t know where to cut communication. If she wants to discuss our MR and it seems to be coming from a good place, should I engage or just shut my mouth for now?
JR,
Listen validate and keep your emotions in check. Let her do 90 percent of the talking.
This was my W to a "t". Very religious upbringing, very devout, heavy on the Catholic guilt and very worried about being the "good girl" and about what others would think. Sandi2 was a bit like this too. Thing is, this can ironically feed the rebellion dynamic in women that leads to waywardism. I had front row seat to this with my W... Alot of it came out and got explored in detail in MC. Bottom line, in MY wife's case it remained a beacon, however faint, and was eventually a significant contributor to her "coming back" to the marriage. But don't for a second think that your religious "good girl" W can't become a WW and have an affair... Sometimes that background, in combo with the right factors, can be a
significant factor in them falling int waywardism and affairs.
Whether or not that's something you can live with and ultimately forgive is for you to decide...but you need to make room in your reality for that possibility, despite your W's good girl background
This is the struggle. There is no gray area here. She is either 100% innocent of all the ill charges I’ve brought up, or she’s not only cheated on me, but lied to me as well. If the latter, all trust is gone and without trust, there is no foundation. No foundation? Let’s go find somewhere else to build.
Sometimes I hate how logic applies. However, I can’t imagine life without it. I truly feel sorry for those that lack it because their reality is generally so far off base.
I am as logical as anyone. Computer Science/Math degree. I think very linearly, very evidence-based. Etc.
Here is the thing, logical doesn't always apply to matter of the heart. I always thought much like you discuss above. I am very untrusting by nature. People have to earn my trust. And most people, if they break that trust, never get another chance at me trusting them. But I love my W. And just as my Father above loves me and forgives me, I too extend that to those I love. There have been lots of spouses that say "if my spouse ever cheated then that would be it" and have ended up taking their spouse back after an A.
But here is the thing. By nature a cheater is also a liar. It is almost IMPOSSIBLE to cheat on your spouse without lying. "Where were you?" "Oh we had a meeting with upper-management run late, and I couldn't just leave or make a call."
SO is it any surprise that when you confront them they lie? Of course not! The lie is the smallest part of all. Someone that would violate the sacred vows of marriage to sleep with someone else isn't going to blink twice about lying about that!
Remember, lying isn't just about telling an untruth, it is also about not telling the whole truth. Or withholding the truth. Dishonesty in general. So once she cheats, she is already a liar (because she promised before God and witnesses she never would do that). Lying about it after the fact, or not lying about it after the fact, doesn't change that!
Sometimes I hate how logic applies. However, I can’t imagine life without it. I truly feel sorry for those that lack it because their reality is generally so far off base.
Gonna have a hard time maintaining a LT relationship with
any woman if that's the case, man...
I am as logical as anyone. Computer Science/Math degree. I think very linearly, very evidence-based. Etc.
Here is the thing, logical doesn't always apply to matter of the heart. I always thought much like you discuss above. I am very untrusting by nature. People have to earn my trust. And most people, if they break that trust, never get another chance at me trusting them. But I love my W. And just as my Father above loves me and forgives me, I too extend that to those I love. There have been lots of spouses that say "if my spouse ever cheated then that would be it" and have ended up taking their spouse back after an A.
But here is the thing. By nature a cheater is also a liar. It is almost IMPOSSIBLE to cheat on your spouse without lying. "Where were you?" "Oh we had a meeting with upper-management run late, and I couldn't just leave or make a call."
SO is it any surprise that when you confront them they lie? Of course not! The lie is the smallest part of all. Someone that would violate the sacred vows of marriage to sleep with someone else isn't going to blink twice about lying about that!
Remember, lying isn't just about telling an untruth, it is also about not telling the whole truth. Or withholding the truth. Dishonesty in general. So once she cheats, she is already a liar (because she promised before God and witnesses she never would do that). Lying about it after the fact, or not lying about it after the fact, doesn't change that!
There are two things that you said that really hit home with me (in bold). I’ve let go of the lying part because the two are automatically linked as you said, and lying is the least of the two worries. No need to treat them as separate issues.
I am a “trust but verify” type of person until trust is officially established. There are very few people in my life with whom I have absolute trust. I do not yet have any proof that my W has broken that trust so for now I have to give her the benefit of the doubt and mentally dismiss a possible A when interacting with her. I do love her and want to fully trust her again but realize that there’s a lot of work to be done before we get back to that point (for both of us). My frustration is that even if she’s ready to discuss the MR, I don’t know if she’s in a place to make any progress. I feel like she’s moving back to sweep it back under the rug. As much as I love my W and want nothing more than to move forward with forming a new R with her, I can’t do it if she’s not willing to take initiative and commit to real change on her part. Of course I can’t tell her this so, hence my frustration. She’s starting to give me what I’ve been wanting, but now I don’t want it in this easy way. I need change.
I know I’ve been quite emotional and I feel like it’s maybe a good thing. I’ve come to terms with the fact that there is most likely an A and I’m still here. If/when the truth comes out, I think I’ll be in a better place to handle it having already ridden a part of this rollercoaster. I know it will be a struggle to keep myself level headed, but getting some of this out now should make for less emotion of/when it does happen.
Thank you Steve for helping me to stay grounded through this. This is where my mom would have shined but I haven’t had this type of support in almost 10 years. Thank you all again.
Gonna have a hard time maintaining a LT relationship with
any woman if that's the case, man...
Haha! You’re absolutely right. I’m a numbers and data guy and logic is a significant part of my daily life. I see the world in a different view than most it seems. Maybe I’m too analytical and need to start working on just enjoying things for what they are instead of trying to fully understand how everything works.
JR, that is why we are here! I like what you said here: "If/when the truth comes out, I think I’ll be in a better place to handle it having already ridden a part of this rollercoaster."
I too react emotionally. And I too was able to become more level as my sitch went on. I've told others in their threads about the difference in finding out about her EA and reacting emotionally, vs. finding her online dating profile I few weeks later and acting level and calm. Her reactions were night and day as well. remaining calm always works better. It keeps the WAS's defensiveness low, and keeps the discussion on a more positive, productive level.
She asked if we could talk tonight and I said yes.
Perfect.
H:"W, I plan on checking out this new band at bla bla bla place at X:XX. Would you like to join me?"
W:"I thought we were going to talk?"
H:"Perfect place to talk"
She asked if we could talk tonight and I said yes.
Perfect.
H:"W, I plan on checking out this new band at bla bla bla place at X:XX. Would you like to join me?"
W:"I thought we were going to talk?"
H:"Perfect place to talk"
I’m one step ahead of you R2C. I’m waiting to hear from my brother to see if he can watch the kids for a couple hours this evening. There’s a restaurant/bar not too far from us that we’ve been to a couple times and have always enjoyed. Sometimes live music but usually during the warmer months on the outside stage. Even without a live band, it’s still a pretty busy place that can be a little distracting which could help me keep my mouth closed. I just wish there was a good football or hockey game on tonight haha.
Probably not a good idea to be focusing on a football game while your W is trying to talk to you.
I’m one step ahead of you R2C.
Thank god.
Ya...football=bad for listen to wife
Focus on listening to understand. Validate.
Remember, it is her story. If does not mean it is true. It does not mean you have to agree. It does not need your input.
If she ask for your input, "I am not sure. I need to think about that"
Remember, it is her story. If does not mean it is true. It does not mean you have to agree. It does not need your input.
If she ask for your input, "I am not sure. I need to think about that"
This is so hard to do. So when do you give your input? My issue with W is her resentments are things that have been exaggerated in many cases, or she lacks awareness of other issues.
She's been changing dates, time periods of things. 'I haven't done this in 5 ... o 2 years ...." was the last one, at least she remembered her memory was a bit faulty. Then again, not like that made her want to reconcile of course.
So when do you give your input?
Only when asked. Even then, defer. Then later.
"I thought about your question. I think your best choice is to do it. hope my input helps"
Probably not a good idea to be focusing on a football game while your W is trying to talk to you.
Actually, a football game would be good for us. It’s something we’ve always enjoyed watching together. She’s not a huge college football fan though so it wouldn’t work tonight anyways. I’m just overthinking it and anxious about awkward silence since I’m not supposed to really be sharing too much right now.
Google this "How To Be Confident In Any Situation" and watch the video
Be that guy
Google this "How To Be Confident In Any Situation" and watch the video
Be that guy
Thank you. I will absolutely employ these tactics tonight.
See how he spreads out? I love doing this.
Dress sharp.