I wish I didn't have to be here to tell my story. I wish I wasn't living in this nightmare, but here goes. I know that often times people think their stories are different, but I've been looking on this site and can't find anything like mine.
Some background.
Me-36, W-37, S-6, D-4. M-7, T-12. Pretty typical suburban life. I am the main breadwinner in the family, I have an okay job, but we do struggle financially at times (who doesn't these days). My wife has made some small comments about not being able to afford nice things, but I think she understands.
We made a sacrifice by having her be a SAHM when our oldest was born. I work pretty regular hours with some longer nights. In January of this year, she made a comment about wishing she could take some time off from being a mom. She said she felt like she's been on call for the past 6 years.
I was confused by this comment. We do try to split up the chores fairly evenly. I cook most every night, I do the grocery shopping, we both help with school stuff for the oldest and play with them. I do all the laundry except hers and she cleans and also mows the lawn. She said it helps her relax so I don't mind.
In June of this this year, I notice that she started acting a bit strange. She started taking better care of herself. She'd dress better when I went to work. Not like anything stunning but more than sweatpants. she was grooming herself different and she suddenly had some new lingerie. I asked about them because I kept track of the bills and it was kinda strange. She said she got them from a female neighbor who bought them and then decided the didn't want them. So she gave them to my W. It kinda raised my suspicions.
My wife is kind of anti-technology. She doesn't have a FB account, or twitter or Instagram or any of those things. She does have a smart phone that she uses to browse the internet, watch movies or make calls. I also didn't notice any unusual texting or new phone numbers patterns on the bill. She texts/calls her mom, her sister and me. That's it.
We also only have 1 car to save money. But I work close and she drops me off if she needs it for the day. It works well. In the evenings she mostly stays home. She might borrow the car to go to her moms or sisters or friends, but that is like 1-2 nights a month. That hasn't changed at all.
But she would also make vague comments like, "I don't know how you seem me as attractive" " "My life is no fun" 'I remember being single and it was fun" I'd try to reassure here and point out the good things in her life.
Or she'd make jokes like "How long do you think this marriage will last?" or "do you ever wish your married someone else," or point to my stomach and ask when my baby was due. It was good fun.
But again this was new. She was also a bit more distant. and spent time alone in our room in the evenings.
In early Sept, I found something that totally shocked me to the core. I don't know how to describe it but I saw that she had signed up for a popular message board system (with a color) in the name. I don't want to say what it is.I asked to use her phone because mine was dead. She gave it me without thinking and then went to bed. I went to check the weather, but I also looked a the web browser. She had forgotten to sign out of this message board. I clicked on her profile I saw that she had a number of posts on the site. Nearly all were during the day when I wasn't at home. It was sickening. She was posting photos of herself in the lingerie on certain sub threads that had themes like 'hot mamas" or "bored wifes." She posted about 10 or so photos of herself (thankfully she didn't post her face) But she was getting a lot of feedback and interacting with the people - mostly men. She told them she was in an open marriage - she's definitely not and was very flirty and playful with the people.
So I looked at the private messages and she had a lot of them from creepy guys saying disgusting things. thankfully she didn't respond to any of them.
still I was crushed. I was tempted to wake her up and throw her out of the house that night, but I didn't.
I slept on the couch because I was so upset. The next day she asked if something was wrong. I lied and said my back hurt and went to work.
When I got home she said she needed to talk. First, she asked if I had looked on her phone. I lied and said that I looked at the weather. I think that she thinks I looked at the site but never admitted anything during the talk. Then she said she was concerned about our future. Things had gotten bored and she felt like her true self was being inhibited. She said that she enjoyed having the bed to herself the night before. But felt bad about.
She said she felt like my sister and not lover. Said I never looked at her "with fire" anymore. She wanted to feel desired and she couldn't see me being that person.
I asked if there was someone else (I didn't mention the photos). She laughed in my face. Because she and said "How would I meet someone, I'm in the house all the time with a 4 year old?"
I asked if she wanted a divorce. She didn't say no or didnt' say yes. She just looked down at her feet. So I dropped it.
Since then it's been rough. We seem to be drifting apart. I'm proceeding as if she wants to get divorced and pursue the singe life. She has kept posting photos on the site. She's progressed to topless photos but nothing more. And she is still getting message from these guys.
It's hard seeing my beautiful do something so gross. At times, I don't even want her to touch me....other times I need the contract. Sex has been gone since Oct. But my wife has asked about it. I just say, "not a good idea because of what's going on"
I could use some help to save my marriage. Can it be saved? I dont' want a divorce with two small kids.
I want to talk to her about the photos and our marriage, but don't know where to start. Any ideas?
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Hey Iowa, each sitch is unique, yet they all have a lot in common too. My XW suddenly invested in sexy lingerie and got real clingy with her phone too, those are some of the early signs that BD is on the way. You haven't officially been BD'd but given what you're describing, you might as well have been.
I want to talk to her about the photos and our marriage, but don't know where to start. Any ideas?
Well there's no "good" answer here. If you don't say anything then she will continue what she's doing and it will eat you up. If you say something then she will probably continue as well, but go deeper undercover with it. If it were me, I would tell her I know what's going on, and I am ashamed of her. And I would say no more about it. If she asks how I know, I would just say "that's not important, what's important is I know now, and you should be as ashamed of yourself as I am of you." PERIOD. I would quit snooping and get out and GAL as much as possible and give her tons of time and space. Focus on you and the kids.
We don't suggest leaving the family home for numerous reasons. If she chooses to leave then don't stand in her way. But don't go yourself.
Also do not abandon the master bed. The home is the castle and the master bed is the throne. If she likes sleeping by herself then she can go sleep on the couch.
She has lost ALL respect for you. Please read Sandi's posts and the history of her previous situation, it's not a lot different than yours, but you will hear it from the wayward's perspective (she was a wayward who later reconciled). Sandi talks a lot about the loss of respect and how damaging that is to the M, and how to get it back.
Good luck and keep posting!
I wish I didn't have to be here to tell my story. I wish I wasn't living in this nightmare, but here goes. I know that often times people think their stories are different, but I've been looking on this site and can't find anything like mine.
Some background.
Me-36, W-37, S-6, D-4. M-7, T-12. Pretty typical suburban life. I am the main breadwinner in the family, I have an okay job, but we do struggle financially at times (who doesn't these days). My wife has made some small comments about not being able to afford nice things, but I think she understands.
We made a sacrifice by having her be a SAHM when our oldest was born. I work pretty regular hours with some longer nights. In January of this year, she made a comment about wishing she could take some time off from being a mom. She said she felt like she's been on call for the past 6 years.
I was confused by this comment. We do try to split up the chores fairly evenly. I cook most every night, I do the grocery shopping, we both help with school stuff for the oldest and play with them. I do all the laundry except hers and she cleans and also mows the lawn. She said it helps her relax so I don't mind.
In June of this this year, I notice that she started acting a bit strange. She started taking better care of herself. She'd dress better when I went to work. Not like anything stunning but more than sweatpants. she was grooming herself different and she suddenly had some new lingerie. I asked about them because I kept track of the bills and it was kinda strange. She said she got them from a female neighbor who bought them and then decided the didn't want them. So she gave them to my W. It kinda raised my suspicions.
My wife is kind of anti-technology. She doesn't have a FB account, or twitter or Instagram or any of those things. She does have a smart phone that she uses to browse the internet, watch movies or make calls. I also didn't notice any unusual texting or new phone numbers patterns on the bill. She texts/calls her mom, her sister and me. That's it.
We also only have 1 car to save money. But I work close and she drops me off if she needs it for the day. It works well. In the evenings she mostly stays home. She might borrow the car to go to her moms or sisters or friends, but that is like 1-2 nights a month. That hasn't changed at all.
But she would also make vague comments like, "I don't know how you seem me as attractive" " "My life is no fun" 'I remember being single and it was fun" I'd try to reassure here and point out the good things in her life.
Or she'd make jokes like "How long do you think this marriage will last?" or "do you ever wish your married someone else," or point to my stomach and ask when my baby was due. It was good fun.
But again this was new. She was also a bit more distant. and spent time alone in our room in the evenings.
In early Sept, I found something that totally shocked me to the core. I don't know how to describe it but I saw that she had signed up for a popular message board system (with a color) in the name. I don't want to say what it is.I asked to use her phone because mine was dead. She gave it me without thinking and then went to bed. I went to check the weather, but I also looked a the web browser. She had forgotten to sign out of this message board. I clicked on her profile I saw that she had a number of posts on the site. Nearly all were during the day when I wasn't at home. It was sickening. She was posting photos of herself in the lingerie on certain sub threads that had themes like 'hot mamas" or "bored wifes." She posted about 10 or so photos of herself (thankfully she didn't post her face) But she was getting a lot of feedback and interacting with the people - mostly men. She told them she was in an open marriage - she's definitely not and was very flirty and playful with the people.
So I looked at the private messages and she had a lot of them from creepy guys saying disgusting things. thankfully she didn't respond to any of them.
still I was crushed. I was tempted to wake her up and throw her out of the house that night, but I didn't.
I slept on the couch because I was so upset. The next day she asked if something was wrong. I lied and said my back hurt and went to work.
When I got home she said she needed to talk. First, she asked if I had looked on her phone. I lied and said that I looked at the weather. I think that she thinks I looked at the site but never admitted anything during the talk. Then she said she was concerned about our future. Things had gotten bored and she felt like her true self was being inhibited. She said that she enjoyed having the bed to herself the night before. But felt bad about.
She said she felt like my sister and not lover. Said I never looked at her "with fire" anymore. She wanted to feel desired and she couldn't see me being that person.
I asked if there was someone else (I didn't mention the photos). She laughed in my face. Because she and said "How would I meet someone, I'm in the house all the time with a 4 year old?"
I asked if she wanted a divorce. She didn't say no or didnt' say yes. She just looked down at her feet. So I dropped it.
Since then it's been rough. We seem to be drifting apart. I'm proceeding as if she wants to get divorced and pursue the singe life. She has kept posting photos on the site. She's progressed to topless photos but nothing more. And she is still getting message from these guys.
It's hard seeing my beautiful do something so gross. At times, I don't even want her to touch me....other times I need the contract. Sex has been gone since Oct. But my wife has asked about it. I just say, "not a good idea because of what's going on"
I could use some help to save my marriage. Can it be saved? I dont' want a divorce with two small kids.
I want to talk to her about the photos and our marriage, but don't know where to start. Any ideas?
Welcome to the board, and I am sorry you are in the sitch you are in. Your sitch reminds me a bit of mine. You can read my sitch starting here:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...ain=61151&Number=2778449#Post2778449Cliff notes: My W started acting strange as well. Found out she was in an online EA with a much younger guy. Complete with nude photos exchanged (and she even included her face). She was sure she wanted a D. We have been in reconciliation for about a year and a half. So is there hope? Of course there is.
First, read all of Cadet's links. They are invaluable. Pay particular attention to sandi's rules. As Cadet says, get the DB or DR book and read it. Cover to cover. While you are reading it, remember everything you read here from Cadet's post.
#1 thing you need to do. GAL. Start engaging in GAL activities. Like a madman! Every minute you are not spending with your kids, you are busy. With small kids it might be a little tough, but try to get out at least a couple of nights a week. Based on her "when is the baby due" maybe a gym membership? Start eating healthier? Can't hurt to get into better shape.
#2 180 on any bad behavior. You don't sound anywhere near as bad as I was, but we can all improve. Identify ways you can be a better husband and father, and start implementing those.
#3 As cadet said, detach. Read his link on loving detachment. Keep studying the subject until you understand it, then practice working on it until you master it. You can google "self-differentiation in marriage" for another perspective on the dynamic.
Iowa, become the best Iowa that you can be! Make it so that she would be a fool to leave you. Become a man only a fool would leave!
You got this.
Sex has been gone since Oct. But my wife has asked about it. I just say, "not a good idea because of what's going on"
Iowa. The rules on sex for DBing are:
1) Do not initiate it. Getting turned down will set you back.
2) If she initiates only oblige if:
- She is not in a PA (EA isn't the same thing because with no physical contact with AP sex with her is safe)
- You can do so without any expectations. None. Having sex with her does not mean things are fixed.
If you can follow those rules, then I suggest actually doing that with her. In my sitch my W tried to initiate one night right after BD. When I said "really?" she said "forget it!" When I did a coaching session later with another anti-D expert, she pointed out that she was probably really horny. The next time she initiated I obliged. It was some of the best sex in years. (She did ask if we could not kiss, which I obliged as well.) But here is what I am thinking. She is clearly looking for an outlet. If she is horny and you don't provide it, she could end up looking for it elsewhere. That would be fine IF you didn't want to save your marriage. But you do.
It doesn't sound like she is in a PA, so next time she initiates, if you can heed rule #2, then go for it.
Mine did something similar with the new lingerie, new perfume, the clothes, grooming different, all that stuff, the nails anticipated weight loss surgeries, fantasy lives in Iowa and contacting Chris Soules from The Bachelor. Traveling across the country in an RV as a single Mom. Heard the same excuses of "How can I have time for another relationship or cheating when I'm home with a two year old?" Got the whole speech of I love you like a brother and I'm not in love with you anymore. We have all seen these red flags here. and heard the same things over and over to an extent. It's scripted and this place and others have the playbook. Here is where you start. Like the veterans here say do not leave the house in case of child abandonment accusations, take the master bedroom back. Calmly tell her you know but not how you know. Don't let them manipulate you into thinking that you are at fault for the way she's feeling or how she is acting. Listen for cues for what you can change if it comes up, but don't let them blame shame you into accepting that she is acting/feeling because of what you did or didn't do. Acknowledge it but don't accept responsibility for it or accountability for because that will cement her position even further.
When they lose all respect for you they justify their actions with their feelings and they will cherry-pick instances from the M that made them feel bad to justify their actions. It's called cognitive dissonance. Or as they say here (The Fog)
The vets here are more experts than I am. I have been in limbo for a year, an moving, and getting divorced anyway.
But if I could do it over again, I would pack up her stuff and show her the door. Let her find another place to live. Protect your children, your assets, and your home. I wouldn't care how small infraction is or if it was just pictures she's apparently and obviously seeking attention from other men and validation from them. Don't let her shame you for snooping either or give you the spiel about invasion of privacy. She's is the guilty culprit that is acting on her current feelings and justifying them anyway she can. You see she is missing that spark and that desire from you that is why they test us about their looks and their self-esteem and attractiveness and self-worth. If she's not feeling it from you whether has to do with you and your actions, or her own and her own mindset. You're in a lose-lose situation you need to realize this right now. So if you're going to lose you better do it on your terms and with discipline integrity and respect.
She's lost all respect for you. Do it now and do it early on and nip it in the bud before it gets too late, and you wind up begging, pleading, conceding arguing and she loses even more respect for you. Pack her stuff and show her the door. If she refuses to leave then you have another issue on your hands, be prepared to buckle up, meet with attorneys, protect yourself, your finances, your emotions, and your kids, because you are in for a bumpy ride. Now that you know. Stop snooping. Nothing good will come out of it but emotional instability. Give her time and space, and focus on you and your kids. Get out and GAL like everyone says here. Improve yourself. Limit discussions to logistics kids and finances, Get a L consultation, and stay the hell away from relationship talks unless she brings it up first. They are kryptonite, unless they are willing to work on the M. And they won't be doing that anytime soon because they've lost all respect for you. She clearly wants attention and validation from other men. You take back to master bedroom for two reasons one because it is your throne. Two it commands respect. ( she is going to fight you on it tooth and nail cuz she doesn't respect you.) Three. You take it back because you don't want someone else coming over the house and sleeping with your wife in that master bedroom while you're away at work, or being exposed to your kids. Steve 85 might be able to help with this kind of scenario as he has experience with the online attention seeking thing.
Another thing to mention don't be cold and distant with her but don't be pursuing either. Start setting up some serious emotional boundaries. Because clearly she has crossed a few of them, and no amount of her feelings can justify it. But try to also be aware how your behavior is got you here in the first place, if there is any validity to what she's saying.
I'm so confused. I keep reading what was said and my head is spinning.
First, I'm not pursuing her at all. I guess I wasn't clear. My view of her is changed. I'm not chasing her or following her around. I turned her down for intimate times. I am not initiating at all. In fact, I'm still trying to sort out what I found. I'm 99% sure she knows I know.
I'm not sure what you mean by setting up emotional boundaries. Emotions are natural.
Also, outside of the pictures thing there is no indication of her doing anything at all. She isn't reaching out to these creeps. I haven't talked about leaving the house. Also the advice of kicking her out isn't practical. First she is the caregiver for our youngest. I couldn't kick her out without also kicking my kids out. I am NOT going to kick a 6 and 4 year old out.
Maybe I wasn't clear in my post. I'm not sure if I can be married to her for her actions. I was the only that brought up divorce. I brought up sleeping in the other room.
I was talking to my brother-in-law (W's sisters husband) about what happened. He suggested that I create a fake account then expose her on that website. I thought it was a decent idea.
First, I'm not pursuing her at all.
Good. No one said you were pursuing, when new people come here there is certain advice that we give to everyone because there are a lot of "typical" mistakes new LBS's make, and pursuit/ begging/ pleading/ negotiating is one of the biggest ones.
Also, outside of the pictures thing there is no indication of her doing anything at all. She isn't reaching out to these creeps.
There are 3 types of affairs we describe here- PA (physical), EA (emotional) and IA (imaginary). What she is doing is very harmful to the marriage and does fall under the category of "affair" here. Doesn't matter whether she's reaching out to them or not, the damage is already being done. And it's very likely she will continue to escalate her activities.
I haven't talked about leaving the house.
Again this is a piece of "proactive" advice, we're trying to warn you of pitfalls that a lot of LBS's fall into.
Also the advice of kicking her out isn't practical. First she is the caregiver for our youngest. I couldn't kick her out without also kicking my kids out. I am NOT going to kick a 6 and 4 year old out.
You can't legally kick her out of the house. But at some point she is more than likely going to talk about leaving, and she will probably want YOU to be the one to leave. She'll say some feel-good stuff like "this will really help our marriage" or "if you could just leave for a while, I'm sure it'll help me sort this out and then everything will be fine." A lot of LBS's are very eager to help put things back to normal even if (they think) it means leaving for a while. But the WAS is simply trying to get the LBS out of the house, once they're out it's easy to keep them away with more lies, gaslighting and excuses. So they're setting up a scenario where they keep the house, they have custody of the kids, and the LBS is paying for everything while living on people's couches or in a seedy apartment. We've seen it happen so many times that we warn about it up front when people come here. A lot of our advice isn't for what is happening to you right now, it's to prepare you for what -might- happen.
I was talking to my brother-in-law (W's sisters husband) about what happened. He suggested that I create a fake account then expose her on that website. I thought it was a decent idea.
Why? What would be the point? Don't engage in passive/aggressive actions. If you want to "expose" her then do what I suggested above and just tell her you know, and that she should be ashamed. Don't tell her how you know, don't get drawn into a long conversation, just tell her and leave the room or go for a walk or go work out.
I,
Ok I think we need to slow down here and I can see how your confused. Right now we don't think there is an actual affair so let's table asking her to leave for right now. Also for future reference you can't legally kick here out anyway.
Let's also forget about the boundaries for a minute until we see where you stand.
IMO you have to let her know you know what's going on if it is unacceptable to you and will not be tolerated. If you are going to blow this up and she says "to bad I enjoy it too much to stop" and there is no recourse then don't bring it up. This is where a boundary comes in and you should read up more on boundaries. A boundary is to protect you. I will not live in a marriage where my W posts provocitave pictures of herself on the Internet. What you don't do is give her an ultimatum "I forbid you from posting provocitave pictures of yourself on the internet". You see the difference? The first is protecting your values and the second is trying to control her. Now remember boundaries if crossed need consequences so if you set a boundary you need to implement consequences if crosses which must be substantial or you will lose more credibility and respect which in turn creates less attraction.
IMO creating a fake account is passive aggressive so don't do it. Calmly, look into her eyes and tell her you know what's going on and I would leave the house and go for a drive and let her sit with it.
The number one problem here early on is the WW has lost respect/attraction for the LBS and the LBS desperately trying to save his marriage does desperate and needy thins that actually makes situation worse. If you can avoid that you can stay ahead of the game.
Keep posting.
I,
Ok I think we need to slow down here and I can see how you're confused. Right now we don't think there is an actual affair so let's table asking her to leave for right now. Also for future reference you can't legally kick here out anyway.
Let's also forget about the boundaries for a minute until we see where you stand.
IMO you have to let her know you know what's going on if it is unacceptable to you and will not be tolerated. If you are going to blow this up and she says "to bad I enjoy it too much to stop" and there is no recourse then don't bring it up. This is where a boundary comes in and you should read up more on boundaries. A boundary is to protect you. I will not live in a marriage where my W posts provocitave pictures of herself on the Internet. What you don't do is give her an ultimatum "I forbid you from posting provocitave pictures of yourself on the internet". You see the difference? The first is protecting your values and the second is trying to control her. Now remember boundaries if crossed need consequences so if you set a boundary you need to implement consequences if crosses which must be substantial or you will lose more credibility and respect which in turn creates less attraction.
IMO creating a fake account is passive aggressive so don't do it. Calmly, look into her eyes and tell her you know what's going on and I would leave the house and go for a drive and let her sit with it.
The number one problem here early on is the WW has lost respect/attraction for the LBS and the LBS desperately trying to save his marriage does desperate and needy things that actually makes situation worse. If you can avoid that you can stay ahead of the game.
Keep posting.
I'm going to go a little against the grain here. I think you need to work on sex appeal and attraction with your W. I think you need to remain calm for the mean time and not worry so much about her as much as you worry about attracting women in general. But, what is your goal here?
Maybe R2C or some of the gals here will chime in, but she wants to be desired and you aren't going to be able to go from 0-100 overnight. When I was attracting the most women in my life, I was in a good place mentally and able to have fun doing anything. I'd talk to any girl at the bar because I was just enjoying myself, and other women were attracted to that. Right now, I imagine things are pretty tense in your head. That vibe won't work for you well.
Iowa, what are you doing that women find attractive and what are you doing that is unattractive? Are you in shape, do you dress nice, speak well, wear good shoes, make strong eye contact, smile, have nice teeth, do you work on your career, learn things?
I could use some help to save my marriage. Can it be saved? I dont' want a divorce with two small kids.
I'm so confused. I keep reading what was said and my head is spinning.
Maybe I wasn't clear in my post. I'm not sure if I can be married to her for her actions. I was the only that brought up divorce. I brought up sleeping in the other room.
Now I am confused. Do you want to save it? Or do you not want to be married to her for her actions? See, here is the thing, we can't help you if you don't know what you want yourself. And that is okay. If you are confused we can help you with that as well.
I know when I discovered my W's EA I wanted to fight to save our marriage. After we started Ring I had a bit of buyer's remorse. Confusion is part of the situation. You just need to try to sort through all of that and decide what YOU want.
I was talking to my brother-in-law (W's sisters husband) about what happened. He suggested that I create a fake account then expose her on that website. I thought it was a decent idea.
I think this is a terrible idea. Between this and just confronting her, I would choose confronting her. But obviously it is up to you.
IMO you have to let her know you know what's going on if it is unacceptable to you and will not be tolerated. If you are going to blow this up and she says "to bad I enjoy it too much to stop" and there is no recourse then don't bring it up.
Straightforward? You have zero control over whether or not she secretly exhibits herself on the Internet and claims she's in an open marriage. You vote with your feet whether or not you accept this. If you don't accept it, state your boundary and enforce it. It's weak and common to state a boundary then NOT enforce it.
It's your call if this is worth enforcing a boundary. If you can't, make peace with that.
She isn't reaching out to these creeps.
Your wife bared her breasts and told them she's in an open marriage. I don't see a whole lot wrong on the guys' parts in propositioning her. Just pointing that out. Anger at the APs may be misplaced here.
Edit: Sorry you're in this situation! It sounds awful. Many awful situations here. Good luck deciding which future(s) you're willing to accept and taking actions in-line with your personal values.
On emotional boundaries, I think what was meant was you need to detach your emotions from her actions.and words. That is detachment. Is it hard? One of the hardest things you will ever do. But, if you can do that it will set you free. As I said, google "self-differentiation in marriage", it is another way of describing healthy, loving, emotional detachment.
Having your happiness tied to another person's, even a spouse's, words and deeds is a dangerous way to live. And if you think about it, it isn't even fair to put that on another human-being. Especially as CW pointed out, you have no control over anyone except yourself.
IA, yes this is all confusing. Very confusing. In my sitches (both of them) I was more confused than at any other point in my life. It gets worse before it gets better......but it does get better.
Long weekend, really long.
I tried to be up all weekend, but was unsuccessful. So I just played with my kids or kept to myself. I didn't interact with the wife much. My wife kept asking if something was wrong. I just said I was tired from work. I tried to avoid one-on-one conversations. She also propositioned me a couple of times and I said no. She actually came into the bedroom only wearing a robe and flashed me. I think it was to get a reaction.
I watched a college football game with my friends, but they lost so that didn't help.
A few things. I did sign up for the site. I decided that I needed to see what was going on a regular basis. She didn't post anything this weekend, thankfully.
I've looked through your comments-thanks. But I don't understand a few of them. I don't want to make myself more attractive to the opposite sex now. I don't care about other women and this point and frankly I'm baffled why a pro marriage site would say this is ok. I understand making myself more attractive to my wife, but I don't get trying to get random women to hook up with me.
I'm not sure how detaching from my wife helps anything. If anything I think it will help me decide to move forward with the divorce. If I detach, I don't care what happens to her.
As for the divorce decision, I don't want to split up a family. At the same time, I don't know how I can forgive my wife and move forward. It's a huge gut punch. I don't think my wife really gets this. She doesn't understand why I'm acting weird. She just thinks we are going through a rough patch. Not to mention we couldn't afford to keep 2 households.
I had a thought about cutting the internet service to the house and relying only on phones. Then I could limit her access to posting photos. Then I could avoid the confrontation and hope that she'd stop doing this.
I want to talk to someone about this. I can't afford regular counseling but the local college has a clinic run by students that I make look at. This is eating me up inside.
I'm not sure how detaching from my wife helps anything. If anything I think it will help me decide to move forward with the divorce. If I detach, I don't care what happens to her.
Remember that DB'ing is counter intuitive.
Have you read the pursuit and distance thread in my first post on this thread?
That may help you understand this a little more.
I,
I’m not sure where you got the idea but obviously you shouldn’t be with other women right now. However becoming more attractive is a goal to achieve because it will help you attract your W back.
Obviously your W posting pictures on the internet is a concern but the reference of she thinks of you more as a brother then as a husband is just as concerning. That’s why becoming more attractive is imperative.
I had a thought about cutting the internet service to the house and relying only on phones. Then I could limit her access to posting photos. Then I could avoid the confrontation and hope that she'd stop doing this.
As a former controller, I can tell you from experience, that the LBSs that struggle the most are the ones that try to control their WAS/WS. Remember, you have control over one person.
Not sure how getting rid of home internet limits her ability to post pictures? Because you are not on an unlimited cellular data plan? Do you think that really will stop her? Or will that just mean you incur more cellular data costs...because trust me...if that is what she wants to do she will continue to do it.
Also, avoiding confrontation is a clear sign of Nice Guy Syndrome. Might want to check out that subject and maybe even read No More Mr. Nice Guy.
Hi Iowa,
I don't get trying to get random women to hook up with me. I'm baffled why a pro marriage site would say this is ok.
I suspect you misunderstood the advice. Few would propose random hookups in your situation.
My wife kept asking if something was wrong. I just said I was tired from work. I tried to avoid one-on-one conversations. She also propositioned me a couple of times and I said no.
The combo of being mopey, confusing, and turning down advances is unlikely to help.
I had a thought about cutting the internet service to the house and relying only on phones. Then I could limit her access to posting photos.
You control you. She controls her. "Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, And wisdom to know the difference." Watch for other controlling tendencies and if there's a trend consider this as a possible 180 to becoming a stronger, better you.
As for the divorce decision, I don't want to split up a family. At the same time, I don't know how I can forgive my wife and move forward.
Okay, you've actually done something strong--you've realized for now your desire to keep your family together is stronger than your sense of anger/betrayal over her secretly baring her breasts on the Internet. So, not the right time to set a hard boundary like "I won't be in a relationship with someone who bares their breasts to other men." You also stated a huge obstacle is learning to be compassionate and forgive. This is something you can work on with a therapist! There are also many websites on forgiveness and compassion.
For now, review Sandi's rules and the Detachment thread for ideas on how to detach without being cold or angry. Those help answer immediate questions while you do long-term work.
I didn't interact with the wife much. My wife kept asking if something was wrong. I just said I was tired from work. I tried to avoid one-on-one conversations. She also propositioned me a couple of times and I said no. She actually came into the bedroom only wearing a robe and flashed me. I think it was to get a reaction.
OK so you are acting cold and weird around her based on your knowledge that she's posting nudes to a sex site and claiming she's in an open marriage, but you didn't TELL her you know despite our advice so try and picture how this looks to her. You are acting sad and mopey and ignoring her and her advances for what appears to her to be no reason at all. That is classic passive/aggressive behavior. She's going to think she's JUSTIFIED in her actions because of your cold attitude towards her, you're inadvertently pushing her back to that site. I'm not suggesting you turn on the charm and put the moves on her, but I do think you should have told her that you know what she's been up to.
A few things. I did sign up for the site. I decided that I needed to see what was going on a regular basis. She didn't post anything this weekend, thankfully.
And if she does again, what's your plan of action?
I don't want to make myself more attractive to the opposite sex now. I don't care about other women and this point and frankly I'm baffled why a pro marriage site would say this is ok.
Are you referring to Ovr's comment?
I think you need to work on sex appeal and attraction with your W.
He specifically said "with your W", not other women. If you're interested in DB'ing then do try and understand and absorb what you're reading rather than putting your own spin on it. I know what you're going through is tough and it's hard to think straight, believe me I do know. Just keep working at it.
Then I could avoid the confrontation and hope that she'd stop doing this.
So you are actually avoiding the confrontation then. At least you got that in the open. Here's the problem- she's already done illicit activities and even if she stops there still needs to be a confrontation (discussion) about it. The damage is already done, and you're both living with the fallout. The problem is only one of you knows that right now.
It doesn't sound like she is in a PA, so next time she initiates, if you can heed rule #2, then go for it.
I agree.
Also, be pleasantly different in bed. We can elaborate if needed. The goal is have her think of you differently., Like "Wow, that was my husband?? I like that.."
Alright brother, you have a whole team of people here that want to help you save your marriage. From my perspective, you have a great shot at this. I have followed hundreds of sitch here. I have seen what works and what doesn't.
My assumption is you want to save your marriage. I will offer my best suggestions based on this assumption.
Read this post:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2846984#Post2846984One quote that stands out for you:
"Men are attracted to the visual, woman to the verbal."
I strongly suggest that you gradually up your game in the verbal with you wife. Do this in non-pursuing way. Pay close attention to how she reacts.
she made a comment about wishing she could take some time off from being a mom.
Perfect place to validate.
W"H, I Need a break from the kids"
H:"I understand. Parenting is hard work"
You could also test the waters:
H:"I understand. Parenting is hard work. I will arrange for a sitter Friday night. How about you were that sexy black dress and we will go have some fun"
She started taking better care of herself. She'd dress better when I went to work... she was grooming herself different and she suddenly had some new lingerie.
I highly suggest you do the same.
But she would also make vague comments like, "I don't know how you seem me as attractive" " "My life is no fun" 'I remember being single and it was fun" I'd try to reassure here and point out the good things in her life.
These are big hints to you. She needs excitement in her life. You should be the one bringing her excitement.
she was getting a lot of feedback and interacting with...mostly men...was very flirty and playful with the people.
I continually do this with my lady. Hopefully we can guide you to a place that you are doing this with your lady. She NEEDS the attention. Her husband was not meeting this need.
... private messages and she had a lot of them from creepy guys saying disgusting things....
Can/do you talk to wife like they were? Do you understand "The fine art of erotic talking"? If not, look into it. Woman do like it.
Things had gotten bored and she felt like her true self was being inhibited.
Time for you to lead her into an excitement.
She said that she enjoyed having the bed to herself the night before. But felt bad about.
Just validate these type of statements.
She said she felt like my sister and not lover. Said I never looked at her "with fire" anymore. She wanted to feel desired and she couldn't see me being that person.
Sounds like a challenge to me. All is fair in love and war.
Then she said she was concerned about our future.....I asked if she wanted a divorce. She didn't say no or didnt' say yes. She just looked down at her feet.
Bomb drop. The old marriage is dead. Time for you to create a new one.
You stand for the marriage. You stand on your beliefs. "in good times and in bad".
This is the bad times.
I would suggest you ALWAYS sleep in the master bedroom during this phase of the relationship. I do not like the term "Kick her out". Give her the freedom to sleep wherever she wants.
"I like it here. I prefer if you sleep with me, but you are free to sleep wherever you want"
You should project to her that you have had an awaking. Not a needy one, but that you want her in your life, but do not need her.
Do not reveal what you. Do not reveal how you know. BUT DO reveal that you DO KNOW:
"We both know that is not true"
"I will not be lied to"
"If you tell me the truth, I will listen"
Iowa, one other point. You seem to contradict yourself. Like the "How do I save my marriage?" vs. "I don't know if I want to be married to her." Or "Detachment sounds like giving up" vs. "I gave her the cold shoulder all weekend."
This is not a question that I want you to answer but just to think about: "Did you come here to get advice and support, or to argue with things you don't agree with?"
After all, your first post was in the discussion thread about how guns were phallic symbols and therefore inherently macho. (Something I strongly disagree with, since at my gun range 33% of the shooters are female and that percentage is growing.)
I struggled with that too. If you go back and read my first couple of threads. Here is the thing, the vets that post here have been here a longtime, have seen just about everything, and have even been through it themselves. If you let go of your preconceived notions, and try to have an attitude of openness, even if you don't agree with it initially, you will find that this place has a lot of value. Being confused at this stage is NORMAL. But don't let your confusion ignore good advice, or cause you to shutdown to advice that goes counter to your feelings. As cadet said, DBing is largely counter-intuitive, but that is what makes it work.
I need to clear up a few things. First, it's amazing how people will fill in the gaps. I'm not sad, mopey or cold around my W. I still play with my kids. I am quiet around her but people get quiet at times. My W knows this.
Like I said. I think she knows that I know about her "hobby" When we had the talk in Sept she told me that she was bored and she was feeling inhibited and was worried about our future. She seemed worried that I don't lust after her anymore (I did) and wouldn't get that feeling back. She didn't want a divorce and didn't bring it up. My W is not a fool. She knows that we are struggling right now. She may not know that I saw her photos but that isn't the issue. really.
Steve.... I am confused I don't know if I'm the LBS or WAH. I'm not sure why you think I'm being contradictory. I really don't. I've seen an number of LBS go back and forth as well.
I do want to save my marriage but am I saving it for the wrong reason - kids, finances, etc.? I've read a number of stories on her about people drawing lines in the sand. One person said that once their spouse cheated that was the end and there was nothing that could be done. Their line was infidelity and no matter what the spouse did- changed 180, did everything right. They would never get that person a chance. Are the pictures my line? Is it saying she's like my sister?
I'm trying to figure that out.
I,
the way I see it, you have a tremendous advantage over many of the DBers on this site. One, it is very early in the game and you have already found this forum. Two, your W does not know for sure that you are on to her daytime activities. Three, your W is not (yet) threatening divorce. Four, your W has very articulately stated her problem - boredom and being in a rut. Five, she does not have a specific someone to draw her away from you. As others have probably said before me: You have a golden opportunity to turn this around. Most importantly, you have the gift of TIME. Read the books, and the important threads, and learn from others how to avoid the mistakes that we made. You need to start working on yourself immediately; not to win your wife back, but because you should be working on yourself regardless. Things to learn include your Ws love language, how to be an empathic listener, how to transform yourself into the husband and lover that a woman would be insane to leave. Once you achieve this level, you will not be dominated by the fear of her leaving. Right now, it may be easier to focus on her transgressions, but by trying to control her or showing disdain for her, you will drive her further into that world. guaranteed.
Is your marriage worth trying to save? ABSOLUTELY YES. I am D and now happily remarried. I don't have any regrets about it, BUT... my children will experience repercussions forever. Furthermore, I am still very entangled with my xW. Divorce does not sever the relationship, but creates a new distrusful and unpleasant relationship. You do not cut off your arm because of a hangnail, but you do cut it off if it is gangrenous and the toxins in the arm will kill you. Similarly, you do not get a D unless the M is going to kill you - for instance and abusive or violent spouse. I do not think you are in this situation and I do not think your M is killing you.
You will have to take a long hard look at yourself, accept your your role in this, take a deep breath, play your cards close to your chest, and begin doing the work.
Best of luck,
RAI
Steve.... I am confused I don't know if I'm the LBS or WAH. I'm not sure why you think I'm being contradictory. I really don't. I've seen an number of LBS go back and forth as well.
I do want to save my marriage but am I saving it for the wrong reason - kids, finances, etc.? I've read a number of stories on her about people drawing lines in the sand. One person said that once their spouse cheated that was the end and there was nothing that could be done. Their line was infidelity and no matter what the spouse did- changed 180, did everything right. They would never get that person a chance. Are the pictures my line? Is it saying she's like my sister?
I'm trying to figure that out.
Iowa, this is why I point your contradictions out! So that you could recognize your confusion, Admittedly, you might be a little bit of both a LBS and WAS. LBS because your W is the one that started to move away from the marriage. You because your reaction to her actions has been to consider walking away yourself. Most of the people that come to this forum are trying so hard to hold on to their marriage that they are gripping their WAS to the point that they want to get away. WASs are like cats, the tighter you hold them, the more they struggle to get away.
But it is okay to be confused, as long as your recognize your confusion. Trust me, I've lived it, the worst thing you can do is to make the decision to walkaway to quickly, and then spend the rest of your life wondering if you had been more patient how things might have turned out.
Anyway, the way through the confusion is to be in IC. I've seen a lot of LBSs come through this site and those that insist they can't afford IC, or that they don't believe in IC, struggle mightily. I often say to those that say they can't afford to go to IC that they can't afford to not go to IC.
I will close by asking you a question based on your discussion about where someone's line is, and your final question. I will turn it around and ask you: Are the pictures your line? Because only you can answer that.
But it is okay to be confused, as long as your recognize your confusion. Trust me, I've lived it, the worst thing you can do is to make the decision to walkaway to quickly, and then spend the rest of your life wondering if you had been more patient how things might have turned out.
Wish you could have said that to my W Steve85, before she started with D proceedings! Took her less than 12 weeks to go from BD to application.
Iowa, definitely look into IC. Yes it's a bit pricey for me too, but it's been the absolute best thing I could do. FOR MYSELF. You can start doing it for yourself; you maybe don't even need to tell your S about it at first. Then if she notices things you can mention it and suggest going together, or she could go see someone alone.
In my IC I have talked through so much and identified areas that I needed to work on - goals etc. I'm working on them now still and progressing well. If my W notices changes down the line, fine. If she doesn't, fine. If she does notice but then resents me for it, fine. If she doesn't notice and assumes I'm still the same old person, fine.
Whatever, do it for yourself. I've spent about £750 on IC here in UK. All worth it; I do not regret a penny.
First, it's amazing how people will fill in the gaps. I'm not sad, mopey or cold around my W.
I am not filling any gaps, you said it yourself right here:
I didn't interact with the wife much. My wife kept asking if something was wrong. I just said I was tired from work.
Clearly you are acting abnormal around her, and she noticed it enough to ask about it. Instead of telling her why you're acting that way, you brushed it off. That's your choice, I think it's the wrong one (and explained why earlier) but in the end it's up to you how to deal with this.
This is simply an observation based on your posts but you seem very defensive and argumentative, are you that way with your W? If so then that might be a good 180 to work on.
First, it's amazing how people will fill in the gaps. I'm not sad, mopey or cold around my W.
I am not filling any gaps, you said it yourself right here:
I didn't interact with the wife much. My wife kept asking if something was wrong. I just said I was tired from work.
Clearly you are acting abnormal around her, and she noticed it enough to ask about it. Instead of telling her why you're acting that way, you brushed it off. That's your choice, I think it's the wrong one (and explained why earlier) but in the end it's up to you how to deal with this.
This is simply an observation based on your posts but you seem very defensive and argumentative, are you that way with your W? If so then that might be a good 180 to work on.
She knows something is wrong. I've said numerous times she knows that we are struggling. You made a lot of assumptions here. You said I was "sad and mopey." I wasn't acting "sad and mopey" and I wasn't "cold." That's what I was trying to say.
I wasn't being argumentative or defending myself. I wanted to try to give you guys an accurate assessment of day to day life. Why is it wrong to correct the misunderstanding?
Anyway the day came. I came home from work and she was in the living room. One of our kids was napping and the other was playing.
She said that we needed to talk. I said okay. She then looked in my eyes and asked said, "I think you know." I looked at her and said that I did know about her hobby.
She wasn't that surprised. The she said that after being a mom for so long it felt good to have men lust at her body. I said she's was only a mom for a few years and said that I didn't want other men having those thoughts about her. I said it was disrespectful to me and the family. She said it was that I should 'make more of this than it was." Then gave me a bunch of reasons why it was okay. She didn't show her face, she didn't communicate with the guys, she only posted a handful of photos, she had no intention of doing anything more, she
Then she said that if I had noticed her more then she wouldn't feel the need to do this. I said not to put this back on me and she is responsible for her own actions.
It got quite heated.
I stuck to my guns about it being disrespectful to me and the family. I then said I would tell her mom and sister because I was disgusted. Boy she got made a that and called me all sorts of names. She said that I don't own her or can't control her. I then invited her to leave if she felt like that and if she wanted to post pictures then she couldn't do it in our house. She called up her sister and to come to get her and the kids.
So now I'm alone and I want to cry. I don't know what to do now? Go dark? or try to get her back in the house? I feel if I give her an ultimatum she might want to say the D word.
Well that certainly didn't go well. Have you read any of the advice on this site? Telling her you were going to tell her mom and sister was ridiculous and unproductive.
So here are the answers to your questions:
1) Let her reach out to you. I wouldn't say you go dark. But let her be the first to reach out. Likely staying at her sister's is not feasible long-term and she will start wanting to return home at some point.
2) How would you even try to get her back into the house? Beg? Plead? That isn't attractive at all.
3) Ultimatums never work out, and as your instinct suggests it will likely backfire. I believe this confrontation did more harm than good. I think you handled it all wrong, and you could have diffused the situation by simply stating that the behavior was unacceptable to you, and then listen and validate. (Note, you validate her feelings, like when she said it was your fault "So you feel that my not paying attention to you played a role in your decision." Validation is not agreeing or disagreeing, it is simply showing you understand how she feels.) Instead what you wanted least has occurred.
Have your read DB or DR? I highly suggest you get it and read it now that you have plenty of time on your hands.
You can't change the past, just learn from it. You can change your behavior in the future.
There are nuggets of gold if you listen for them. There are always better ways to respond. Use this as an example.
Then she said that if I had noticed her more then she wouldn't feel the need to do this. I said not to put this back on me and she is responsible for her own actions.
One of your W's needs is to FEEL desired. She feels this by WORDS. She tells you this point blank. You CHOOSE to argue rather than listen and validate.
Listen, I have and every other guy on these boards have made the same mistake. It is part of our personal growth to learn to communicate different. More effective. More compassionate.
I said not to put this back on me and she is responsible for her own actions
Better options off the top of my head:
"I am sorry you feel that way"
"I think you are stunning. I am sorry if I haven't told you this enough"
"How would you like me to notice you more?"
So now I'm alone and I want to cry.
Let the tears flow while you are alone, never in the presence of your W.
I don't know what to do now?
When in doubt, do nothing. Wait.
Steve85 gave good advise.
I feel if I give her an ultimatum she might want to say the D word.
No ultimatums. Set boundaries. Read the boundaries thread. Again, take time to weigh all your options and do not make emotional decisions. Use logic. Run things past us first. Debate the pros and cons of conflicting advise.
She said that we needed to talk. I said okay. She then looked in my eyes and asked said, "I think you know." I looked at her and said that I did know about her hobby.
She didn't show her face, she didn't communicate with the guys, she only posted a handful of photos, she had no intention of doing anything more, she
Then she said that if I had noticed her more then she wouldn't feel the need to do this.
I then said I would tell her mom and sister because I was disgusted. Boy she got made a that and called me all sorts of names. She said that I don't own her or can't control her. I then invited her to leave if she felt like that and if she wanted to post pictures then she couldn't do it in our house. She called up her sister and to come to get her and the kids.
Hi Iowadazd,
So, she made a few advances on you this weekend, stopped posting photos, confronted you and told you she’s posting them because she wants to feel desired by you. Obviously, her having done this wasn’t the line in the sand for you. Solution? Address her dissatisfaction.. no.. you tried to control her with shame?!
Sorry you’re going through this. It’s hard to make changes on a dime. I’ve had control issues in the past like Steve and others. Really study the threads on listening and validation. There are online videos and books on those subjects. Work on your control issues. This hurt your chances, but notice that your wife is still telling you what she wants and going after it and giving you chances (her advances, flashing, this talk) and you’re the one bringing up separation. I think you still have a chance if instead of begging, arguing, etc. you work on the one person you control—you! Take care.
I,
I am sure you are hurting and I am sorry that things went down the way they did. When are you going to start listening to your W? Instead of judging, you could have listened carefully. The conversation could have had a completely different outcome. You must put your ego and sense of rejection aside if you truly want to help your W. She is telling you, nay, shouting out from the rafters, what you need to do. Stop focusing on her actions and start looking at your own. It sounds like you have been neglecting her needs for a long time. Again, everyone here is trying to help you. Before acting irrationally, consult with the good folks here, please. We have no other motive than we want to help you.
Learn from this mistake.
RAI
I then said I would tell her mom and sister because I was disgusted.
I don't think telling on her is a good idea. It's normally not advised once you're older than 5 or 6 lol! If you were just threatening, I don't think that is good idea either. You need to detach so you can think clearly. Read that detachment thread every day.
[quotte]I then invited her to leave if she felt like that and if she wanted to post pictures then she couldn't do it in our house.[/quote] But she can, and there's nothing you can do to stop her. So why try?
You could have taken her words as an opportunity. She wants to be wanted, don't we all?! The positives she listed are actually somewhat positive. That doesn't taken away the negatives, but it is something.
You are pushing things down the divorce path quickly. I'd recommend you worry about yourself first. And maybe talk to a lawyer because she took the kids.
We all feel for you so let's work to right this ship. Lots of good advice so just sit tight and process everything. Maybe call a buddy and get out tonight for a bit.
I think in one hand she is trying to say "you don't pay enough attention to me" and possibly wants to feel desired by you. On the other hand, the way she went about seeking attention WAS FROM OTHER MEN!! By posting nude photos of her self to them to FEEL DESIRED. Do you see the distinguishing line here? Do you see how logic and feelings can be conflicting? Her FEELLINGS to be desired are stronger than her morals and commitment to her husband.
I was at a club this weekend at a Halloween party. Since I walk and dance to the beat of my own drum. I was doing my own thing and dancing and having a good time just all by myself. There was this woman there who was dancing in her own corner for about two solid hours. Her myself and my friend started talking with her. Came to find out she was married and there by herself and her husband was home. My friend later told me to ditch the conversation and he explained to me that he recognized that girl and you seen her there 3 years in a row doing the same exact thing without her husband.
now either she likes to dance and will do whatever she needs to do to express herself with her husband comes along or not or shares that with her. Or she is seeking attention and validation which he's not getting at home. What I'm trying to say is if they're not getting something they will go out elsewhere and seek it. if they were openly expressive and communicative about these things then it would be our responsibility to attempt to fulfill it. However keep in mind that once boundaries are crossed, and our spouses start seeking attention from other men regardless of how small or how large the infraction is. DO NOT LET THEIR FEELINGS HOLD YOUR RESPONSIBLE IN JUSTIFYING THEM CHEATING. But acknowledge communicate and validate how they feel and if they haven't crossed too many lines in the sand as far as what you're willing to tolerate then keep an open mind when they come onto if they come on to you that's a good thing. But be firm. How do you be firm? Shame isn't going to get you anywhere. You have to let her know that you know what's going on and call her out on her BS not communicating and sending nude pictures to other men is unacceptable and you will not tolerate that in an open marriage. On the other hand you still want to be cool calm and collected and be open to any advances that she may make but take it for what it is in that moment and not hold any expectations to it whatsoever. By all means pay attention to her actions and not her words. Now may or may not be the time to do this I would ask the experts here but I would demand that you see her phone. If she tries to shame you in to being that you are controlling at that request. You tell her that you are not controlling her that she's free to do whatever she wishes at her own will. And that you are offering her two choices. either she chooses to submit to your request to rebuild the trust within the relationship, or she can walk.
Ask the vets here first. This is just my two cents.
In short what I am trying to say is if you are being treated as an option, then do the same. Keep an open mind, be forgiving, but firm in your boundaries. Listen and validate even if you don't agree. Maintain your self respect and integrity first and foremost. There is a saying around here. Become AMOAFWL
I do not agree with hclacs. You and W are both hurting from the confrontation. Now especially, you need to choose your words and actions very carefully. There will be a time to set boundaries. I promise. Now is not the time. Please please please begin to examine your flaws and stop trying to justify your own actions. Recognize that your W is also hurting. The more you try to control her now, the more she will resent you - she already does. You are on a collision course with D, and you may be the one to cause it.
RAI
Hi Iowa,
I wanted to be helpful by breaking down your conversation to highlight issues--
She wasn't that surprised. The she said that after being a mom for so long it felt good to have men lust at her body. I said she's was only a mom for a few years..
"She was only a mom for a few years" is a form of INVALIDATION called MINIMIZING. If you Google "Invalidation" and "Minimizing", you'll learn denying others' reality is poor communication in addition to being anti-DB. You can listen to, understand, and acknowledge her feelings without agreeing with her actions.
Then she said that if I had noticed her more then she wouldn't feel the need to do this. I said not to put this back on me and she is responsible for her own actions. It got quite heated.
It was her choice to post nudes. She felt she needed to do so to feel wanted, because she feels you don't pay attention to her that way anymore. Imagine listening and validating--"Wow.. you don't feel I notice you that way, you don't feel I lust after you anymore.. and that was a factor in your choice." I wonder what she'd say next, what openings that would've create. I'm amazed how my partner softens when I listen. This doesn't erase that posting nudes was her choice and responsibility--it just acknowledges her feelings and her reality. This was the moment the conversation could've turned radically positive..
I then said I would tell her mom and sister because I was disgusted. Boy she got made a that and called me all sorts of names. She said that I don't own her or can't control her.
And now it turns radically negative..
Threatening to tell on her (use shame as a weapon) sounds like an attempt to try to control her. Note how many previous replies to you were about dropping controlling behaviors.
and if she wanted to post pictures then she couldn't do it in our house.
This is a direct attempt to control her. As a co-owner and/or tenant, she can actually post whatever she wants from the home. You control you. She controls her.
I then invited her to leave if she felt like that She called up her sister and to come to get her and the kids.
Don't ask for it unless it's what you want. Oof, I learned this one the hard way, too.
Recognize that your W is also hurting. The more you try to control her now, the more she will resent you - she already does.
That's been a HUGE help for me in tough conversations, remembering my partner is hurting, too.
How are you this morning? I know yesterday was rough so give us an update...
How are you this morning? I know yesterday was rough so give us an update...
Iowa, please provide an update. Many of us have given into the tit-for-tat MR talk in the middle of our sitches. And just as many of us got our grapes crushed for making mistakes in those discussions. You got a lot of good advice so that in the future you can you can handle these interactions in a more productive way.
I am sure anger, and a sense of being right, drove many of your words yesterday. As a certain bald, Texan TV psychologist likes to ask and point out: "How did that work for you?" and "Would you rather be right or happy?" You might be right, but being a right-fighter often times causes the exact opposite of what you would like to happen.
How are you this morning? I know yesterday was rough so give us an update...
Iowa, please provide an update. Many of us have given into the tit-for-tat MR talk in the middle of our sitches. And just as many of us got our grapes crushed for making mistakes in those discussions. You got a lot of good advice so that in the future you can you can handle these interactions in a more productive way.
I am sure anger, and a sense of being right, drove many of your words yesterday. As a certain bald, Texan TV psychologist likes to ask and point out: "How did that work for you?" and "Would you rather be right or happy?" You might be right, but being a right-fighter often times causes the exact opposite of what you would like to happen.
^^that^^
Those are exactly my thoughts.
RAI
I only have limited time for updates, sorry.
I got a text from my W last night saying that she was thinking things over. She also told me she told her sister that we were having problems with our furnace and that's why she was staying with her with the kids. I didn't get into any other discussion but thanked her for the info. No other contact. I didn't reach out and she didn't either. It seems we are both cooling our heels on this for now. I
Look I am responsible for my own actions but I thought that telling her that she can't do that in our house and telling her that she was disrespectful to the marriage was what I was being encourage to do. I thought that I wasn't being a nice guy by letting her continue with her hobby. I thought I had to set a boundary about it.
I was told that my wife didn't respect me that I should tell her that what I will or won't tolerant. And enforce it. I thought I was doing all that. And she left.
So what am I doing wrong? I'm so low right now. The house feels so empty and I missed my kids. It's only for a day but Halloween is coming and I like to dress up with my kids. Should I ask my wife to come home for trick or treating with no expectations?
I only have limited time for updates, sorry.
Hi Iowa, I'm sorry you're feeling low. ((Hugs)) I urge you to make time to read carefully the above replies AND the threads on Boundaries and Validation BEFORE talking to your wife. Post here your understanding of the difference between Boundaries and Ultimatums, between Validating and Agreeing. It sounds like you have strong chances if you can invest some time in self-improvement.
You can absolutely set a boundary. But the boundary is for you. We are not judging you here. Dont feel bad. Your conversation is now the past and another lesson learned. Its extremely difficult to communicate when you are upset. Obviously you were upset. If you are upset, then dont talk. Back off and cool down.
We all said things to our WW out of hurt. Because it sure as hell hurts. You still have an opportunity. Your wife absolutely told you what she wants. She didnt say she wants a D or to leave you. She said she wants to feel sexy and desired. So be that man.
Validate her feelings. Like said above, validating is not agreeing. Its simply showing you are listening and understanding. You can absolutely tell her how her actions made you feel. Communication goes both ways.
Instead of "your actions are disgusting and disrespectful " you say "I understand you want to be desired. However, your actions make me feel disrespected and hurt"
I only have limited time for updates, sorry.
I got a text from my W last night saying that she was thinking things over. She also told me she told her sister that we were having problems with our furnace and that's why she was staying with her with the kids. I didn't get into any other discussion but thanked her for the info. No other contact. I didn't reach out and she didn't either. It seems we are both cooling our heels on this for now. I
Look I am responsible for my own actions but I thought that telling her that she can't do that in our house and telling her that she was disrespectful to the marriage was what I was being encourage to do. I thought that I wasn't being a nice guy by letting her continue with her hobby. I thought I had to set a boundary about it.
I was told that my wife didn't respect me that I should tell her that what I will or won't tolerant. And enforce it. I thought I was doing all that. And she left.
So what am I doing wrong? I'm so low right now. The house feels so empty and I missed my kids. It's only for a day but Halloween is coming and I like to dress up with my kids. Should I ask my wife to come home for trick or treating with no expectations?
So let's go with this. So let's say you were taking back respect and establishing a boundary? (You weren't by the way but for sake of argument let's just say you were.) Where in any of the advice did you see threatening to tell her mom and sister about the pictures, or getting into heated shouting match with her was taking back respect? Or establishing a boundary?
All of that makes me question whether you did all of cadet's reading. Or if you've carefully considered the advice that was given. What happens a lot is is that LBSs come here and want the forum to give them the magic bullet. "Tell me what to do so that tomorrow this will all go away!" Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. I wish it did. For all our' sakes.
What we can help you with is not getting into a situation like you are now. I admittedly am not an expert on boundaries, but boundaries are not demands or ultimatums. They are not things like "you CANNOT take pictures like that and send them from our house!" A boundary is something you set and then take action on yourself.
Boundary: I will not tolerate my W taking nude photos and sending them to other men on the internet,
Action if boundary is crossed: I will move all of her stuff out of the MBR into the guest bedroom, basement or somewhere else, and make it clear that she is not welcome back into the MBR until assurances with transparency that it has ceased are in place.
Note, that is also how you take respect back. Commanding respect is about ACTION, not WORDS. Shouting at her, making unenforceable threats, and threatening to tell others doesn't command respect.
And finally, did you see the advice about validation? "You not paying attention to me made me take nude photos and post them on the internet!" The wrong response is: "Oh no, don't put that on me!" Any 12 year-old can say that. Calmly responding with: "So you feel I've been ignoring you so you took that action to gain attention." Note, as stated multiple times by multiple posters above, all that statement did was validate how she felt....it neither agreed or disagreed with her supposition.
The reading in cadet's first response is so so fundamental and important that I cannot overstate it.
So what am I doing wrong?
Use everything as a learning experience. You did your best with what you knew. Now you know better. Change your behavior.
Right now, focus really hard on making it "SAFE" for your wife to talk to you.
As the man, it is critical for you to control your "scary" emotions. You can state that you are angry, and why.
Always think this "Is what I am about to do or say, going make things better or worse?"
I,
Your W is seeking attention/affection from other men. It is clear that she was not getting sufficient attention/affection from you. Please tell us the ways in which you have NOT been giving her attention and affection. feel free to write a list.
RAI
So what am I doing wrong?
Use everything as a learning experience. You did your best with what you knew. Now you know better. Change your behavior.
Right now, focus really hard on making it "SAFE" for your wife to talk to you.
As the man, it is critical for you to control your "scary" emotions. You can state that you are angry, and why.
Always think this "Is what I am about to do or say, going make things better or worse?"
Wish I read this one a year ago. Oh well lesson definately learned.
Iowa, I'm rooting for you, buddy! Try to resist the urge to reach out until you read up the replies above and threads discussed. Your situation looks salvageable. Fingers crossed.
All of that makes me question whether you did all of cadet's reading. Or if you've carefully considered the advice that was given. What happens a lot is is that LBSs come here and want the forum to give them the magic bullet. "Tell me what to do so that tomorrow this will all go away!" Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. I wish it did. For all our' sakes.
What we can help you with is not getting into a situation like you are now. I admittedly am not an expert on boundaries, but boundaries are not demands or ultimatums. They are not things like "you CANNOT take pictures like that and send them from our house!" A boundary is something you set and then take action on yourself.
Boundary: I will not tolerate my W taking nude photos and sending them to other men on the internet,
Action if boundary is crossed: I will move all of her stuff out of the MBR into the guest bedroom, basement or somewhere else, and make it clear that she is not welcome back into the MBR until assurances with transparency that it has ceased are in place.
Note, that is also how you take respect back. Commanding respect is about ACTION, not WORDS. Shouting at her, making unenforceable threats, and threatening to tell others doesn't command respect.
See I don't get it. Here is my thinking.
Boundary: I will not tolerate my W taking topless photos and posting them to the internet,
Action if boundary is crossed: I ask her to move out.
I don't know how letting her move out of the MBR is any sort of big deal. As you recall, she wanted to sleep alone. This is a win-win. Moving her stuff seems controlling and passive aggressive.
A couple of people suggest that I shouldn't be a Mister Nice Guy. Isn't in weak to say, hey you can still do something I find hurtful...but you just can't sleep in our bedroom?
I know you want to beat me up for making a threat in the heat of an argument, but I thought I was following the advice.
Anyway, I caved and asked her to come over for trick and treating. She said she wouldn't. I said that I would be over at her sisters to go out with the kids and I wondered if we could get some time to talk. She said "Maybe." So that's a positive. I said that I was still attracted to her and she didn't respond.
I went to the local college to ask about counseling with the students (it's really the only low cost option) I have an appointment next week but it might be too late.
I,
There’s a difference between ultimatums and boundaries and it takes awhile to understand the difference.
Let’s look at the difference:
I will not tolerate you posting nudes on a website.
Or
I will not be in a marriage where my wife posts nudes on a website.
One is about control and the other is about protecting your values.
Now let’s look at the consequences for boundary if you set it correctly.
You asked W to move out. What if she says no I’m not moving out. Then what?
Now you panicked and decided to pursue and have a relationship talk which will probably end badly for you.
That’s good that you are able to get some counseling.
Slow down and take some deep breathes and come here before making any decisions because unfortunately you are starting to act out of fear and that usually makes things worse.
I,
There’s a difference between ultimatums and boundaries and it takes awhile to understand the difference.
Let’s look at the difference:
I will not tolerate you posting nudes on a website.
Or
I will not be in a marriage where my wife posts nudes on a website.
One is about control and the other is about protecting your values.
Now let’s look at the consequences for boundary if you set it correctly.
You asked W to move out. What if she says no I’m not moving out. Then what?
Now you panicked and decided to pursue and have a relationship talk which will probably end badly for you.
That’s good that you are able to get some counseling.
Slow down and take some deep breathes and come here before making any decisions because unfortunately you are starting to act out of fear and that usually makes things worse.
I really can't tell a difference in your statements. They both seem controlling (I'm really trying to learn here)
If I say that I won't be in a marriage where my wife posts nude, is that just begging to get a divorce?
I,
If you can’t see the difference that’s troubling.
The second says “ W I can’t control you and you are free to do as you wish (she has free will) but I love and value myself and beliefs too much to be married to someone who compromises my values.
It’s giving her a choice.
It certainly may come to divorce. But answer this question. If she chooses posting nudes over working things out with you, what does it hat tell you about the state of your marriage?
Trust me she knows it’s wrong!
Wow Iowa, I have to admit, I'm a little confused by your logic. Moving her out of the MBR for posting nude photos is passive-aggressive and controlling. But stating "You can't post nudes in the house or I'll tell your mom and sister!" Isn't?
The general rule is to not share a bedroom with a cheater. Since they are the one stepping out of the marriage they should be the one to leave the MBR. You say you want to ask her to move out instead. What happens when she says "no"? Do you threaten to tell on her, like we are in grade school here?
And then this: "If I say that I won't be in a marriage where my wife posts nude, is that just begging to get a divorce?"
Really?!?! So you've already said she can't posts nudes. What if she continues? Here is the thing we are trying to get you to understand. You do not get to control her. Period. This has already been proven. Otherwise she never would have posted nudes to begin with. But what you do get to control is how you deal with it. If your ultimate goal is to never get a a D, then guess what? You are giving her a blank check to do whatever she wants, because she knows while you won't like it that you'll never have the backbone to take action. You were the one talking about lines and that posting nude photos may be that line. So what is it? You don't want a D no matter what, or you have a line that once crossed would cause you to file for D yourself?
Iowa, I get the impression you're a little spoiled. And you want everything on your terms. "I don't want a D but I don't want a wife that doesn't posts nude photos online!" That ship has already sailed. Now what?
And then you break the advice to leave her alone for now, invite her for Halloween?!? And then start pressuring and pursuing with the "I'm attracted to you" you talk?
This would have been better "I want to spend Halloween with my kids, I will pick them up tomorrow night at 5:30" When she balked. You say, "ok, let's decide when I will have them tomorrow night and when you will." Because I'm telling you, you're headed for divorce, you might as well practice co-parenting now.
I know you want to beat me up..
Wow--you believe we enjoy when you make mistakes? I successfully reconciled with my partner and I really want to see you get there, too or at least be content with your choices leading to divorce.
I wondered if we could get some time to talk. She said "Maybe." So that's a positive.
Your "caving" and reaching out for R talk was predictable and is a typical error. Since I didn't see any indication you processed my longer reply on listening and validation, I kept it brief--
Iowa, I'm rooting for you, buddy! Try to resist the urge to reach out until you read up the replies above and threads discussed.
Now you panicked and decided to pursue and have a relationship talk which will probably end badly for you. Slow down and take some deep breathes and come here before making any decisions because unfortunately you are starting to act out of fear and that usually makes things worse.
Did you get the message?!
Try to avoid an R talk tonight. Read up on Listening and Validating.
Wow Iowa, I have to admit, I'm a little confused by your logic. Moving her out of the MBR for posting nude photos is passive-aggressive and controlling. But stating "You can't post nudes in the house or I'll tell your mom and sister!" Isn't?
The general rule is to not share a bedroom with a cheater. Since they are the one stepping out of the marriage they should be the one to leave the MBR. You say you want to ask her to move out instead. What happens when she says "no"? Do you threaten to tell on her, like we are in grade school here?
And then this: "If I say that I won't be in a marriage where my wife posts nude, is that just begging to get a divorce?"
Really?!?! So you've already said she can't posts nudes. What if she continues? Here is the thing we are trying to get you to understand. You do not get to control her. Period. This has already been proven. Otherwise she never would have posted nudes to begin with. But what you do get to control is how you deal with it. If your ultimate goal is to never get a a D, then guess what? You are giving her a blank check to do whatever she wants, because she knows while you won't like it that you'll never have the backbone to take action. You were the one talking about lines and that posting nude photos may be that line. So what is it? You don't want a D no matter what, or you have a line that once crossed would cause you to file for D yourself?
Iowa, I get the impression you're a little spoiled. And you want everything on your terms. "I don't want a D but I don't want a wife that doesn't posts nude photos online!" That ship has already sailed. Now what?
And then you break the advice to leave her alone for now, invite her for Halloween?!? And then start pressuring and pursuing with the "I'm attracted to you" you talk?
This would have been better "I want to spend Halloween with my kids, I will pick them up tomorrow night at 5:30" When she balked. You say, "ok, let's decide when I will have them tomorrow night and when you will." Because I'm telling you, you're headed for divorce, you might as well practice co-parenting now.
I'm was asking if it is ALL controlling and passive aggressive. I can't force someone out of a bedroom any more than I can force someone out of a house, can't I?
Dude you need to let go of what I said in the heat of the moment. I acknowledge it was wrong and I didn't follow up. Do you hold onto little mistakes your wife makes too? you've mentioned all the time.
You guys keep saying that I don't get to control her. I get that. But how is moving her stuff out of the MBR not controlling or an attempt to control her. That's my question. No one has answered it.
I think the message I'm getting is that I need to file. That seems to be the only action I can take that will establish a boundary and show her that I won't tolerate her posting of nude photos.
I think we're getting out in the weeds. Iowa, your W hasn't been meeting these guys or revealing her identity as far as we know. This puts you ahead of most of situations here. She even lied about why she went to her sister's place, so that's good that she isn't ready to tell everyone that there are problems yet. Those a huge positives!
What's her number 1 dealio right now? She wants to be wanted!!!!! So work on attraction. Read about what women are attracted to. Be calm, strong, engaging, make eye contact, listen, ask questions, don't be overly needy. Make this woman love you, be that guy you were on your first year of dating. You can probably pursue a LITTLE just don't be needy or whiny IMO.
If y'all talk just listen to her. Understand what she says, validate her feelings, ask questions, reflect her statements back to her. Don't inject your feelings for the time being! There may be a time when she'll discuss your feelings but let her bring it up down the road.
I know you want to beat me up..
Wow--you believe we enjoy when you make mistakes? I successfully reconciled with my partner and I really want to see you get there, too or at least be content with your choices leading to divorce..
[/quote]
I was talking about the one person who has mentioned my mistake in every single one of his posts.
Iowa - one of the hardest DB principals is the no R talk . It goes against everything you want to do or say. It’s a must though . Let her work through her emotions with out any pressure . Just smile and be polite .
The family events or holidays just set up a time you will be taking the kids alone . Have fun when you are with them . Like real fun . It may feel off at first but you will get stronger . The stronger you the better .
And I just saw your post, we all get caught up in the moment! No worries my friend!! Don't file unless you want a divorce. If her doing this stuff online is something you can't live with then file and move on. But if you want to work on it than get to gettin!
I would just continue to read and learn about boundaries here and makes 180s on things you'd like to see change in yourself.
I,
No you have other options. You could separate, you could refuse martial relations with her. There are other options then D but that might be where you ultimately end up.
I think we're getting out in the weeds. Iowa, your W hasn't been meeting these guys or revealing her identity as far as we know. This puts you ahead of most of situations here. She even lied about why she went to her sister's place, so that's good that she isn't ready to tell everyone that there are problems yet. Those a huge positives!
What's her number 1 dealio right now? She wants to be wanted!!!!! So work on attraction. Read about what women are attracted to. Be calm, strong, engaging, make eye contact, listen, ask questions, don't be overly needy. Make this woman love you, be that guy you were on your first year of dating. You can probably pursue a LITTLE just don't be needy or whiny IMO.
If y'all talk just listen to her. Understand what she says, validate her feelings, ask questions, reflect her statements back to her. Don't inject your feelings for the time being! There may be a time when she'll discuss your feelings but let her bring it up down the road.
I appreciate this. Sorry for being confrontational to every. I'm hurting and angry. i'm trying to calm. My plan over the next few days is as follows.
1. tonight I'm not going to have an talks about the marriage. I will just trick or treat and get the eff out of there after.
2. I'm going to limit my interactions with my wife either by text or phone.
3. This will give me time to read up on boundaries and validation. I feel I've been making too many mistakes in this process. my mind is everywhere these days.
4. I heard of a book called After the Affair. I'm treating her posting nudes as an affair.
5. I'm going to do some project around the house that I have put off. It's a good time with the kids gone because they can be distracting.
Iowa - one of the hardest DB principals is the no R talk . It goes against everything you want to do or say. It’s a must though . Let her work through her emotions with out any pressure . Just smile and be polite .
The family events or holidays just set up a time you will be taking the kids alone . Have fun when you are with them . Like real fun . It may feel off at first but you will get stronger . The stronger you the better .
Even if she hasn't dropped the bomb?
1. tonight I'm not going to have an talks about the marriage. I will just trick or treat and get the eff out of there after.
2. I'm going to limit my interactions with my wife either by text or phone.
3. This will give me time to read up on boundaries and validation. I feel I've been making too many mistakes in this process. my mind is everywhere these days.
4. I heard of a book called After the Affair. I'm treating her posting nudes as an affair.
5. I'm going to do some project around the house that I have put off. It's a good time with the kids gone because they can be distracting.
Good luck. It's going to be really challenging, the first couple days. If she wants to say things about the R, it's okay to just listen and gather information. if she asks questions or for decisions that make you tense or you aren't 100% confident about, a good stock line is "Let me think about it." Few decisions need to be made on the spot. Most can wait a few hours, or overnight, or in a few days.
I understand how you could be very upset and confused right now given all that you've been through lately. But remember, you are stronger than this! You have much to offer, so become the best you that you can be.
I like your list except for number 4. I'd say let's get lots of opinions, but my opinion is that posting pics online is not an affair. It is troubling and a betrayal, but has she been texting some guy for months talking about things? Has she been sleeping around? I ask these questions to differentiate between her inappropriate behavior and an affair. I think if you go hardcore on her because you're considering this an affair that she is going to be turned away. If you're done with her, just file and move on. If you want to fix things, do not get holier than thou acting like this is the same as a physical or emotional affair.
That was my opinion and it is open to critique and discussion. I'm not married to it and I am not speaking God's word haha!
I,
I assume that you are referring to me as " the one person who has mentioned my mistake in every single one of his posts."
Sorry for being confrontational to every. I'm hurting and angry.
no worries. Hurt people hurt people. We get it.
1. tonight I'm not going to have an talks about the marriage. I will just trick or treat and get the eff out of there after.
2. I'm going to limit my interactions with my wife either by text or phone.
3. This will give me time to read up on boundaries and validation. I feel I've been making too many mistakes in this process. my mind is everywhere these days.
4. I heard of a book called After the Affair. I'm treating her posting nudes as an affair.
5. I'm going to do some project around the house that I have put off. It's a good time with the kids gone because they can be distracting.
I liked your list, BTW (except #4 - this was not an A - there was no AP - and I would read all the DB stuff first. I read "after the affair" and it is not as helpful - my $.02). Your list shows you are starting to turn things around.
I have been through a lot with my xW and have learned a lot. When I first came on this site, "Job" gave me a very hard time. In retrospect, he was spot on, and I wish I had met him and listened to him sooner.
You are going through a hard time. Possibly the hardest time - it was for me, without a doubt. I sympathize. But you have to put aside your feelings of anger, indignation, shame, and self-pity and start listening to what almost everyone is telling you. You are acting out of emotion and it is causing more damage.
If you want everyone to tell you how awful your W is and validate how you feel about her, that is fine. Everyone needs a sounding board sometime.
But it is not going to help your M. However...If you truly want to stop this speeding train from ending your M, then you have to leave your comfort zone, start acknowledging your role in this, and begin taking our advice. you cannot control your W, but you can improve yourself. To do so, you have to first acknowledge your flaws.
Everyone is doing this for no other reason than to help you. We are taking time out of our lives to help you. So I am going to ask you to bare your soul one last time:
Your W is seeking attention/affection from other men. It is clear that she was not getting sufficient attention/affection from you. Please tell us the ways in which you have NOT been giving her attention and affection. feel free to write a list.
Best of luck,
RAI
Wow Iowa, I have to admit, I'm a little confused by your logic. Moving her out of the MBR for posting nude photos is passive-aggressive and controlling. But stating "You can't post nudes in the house or I'll tell your mom and sister!" Isn't?
The general rule is to not share a bedroom with a cheater. Since they are the one stepping out of the marriage they should be the one to leave the MBR. You say you want to ask her to move out instead. What happens when she says "no"? Do you threaten to tell on her, like we are in grade school here?
And then this: "If I say that I won't be in a marriage where my wife posts nude, is that just begging to get a divorce?"
Really?!?! So you've already said she can't posts nudes. What if she continues? Here is the thing we are trying to get you to understand. You do not get to control her. Period. This has already been proven. Otherwise she never would have posted nudes to begin with. But what you do get to control is how you deal with it. If your ultimate goal is to never get a a D, then guess what? You are giving her a blank check to do whatever she wants, because she knows while you won't like it that you'll never have the backbone to take action. You were the one talking about lines and that posting nude photos may be that line. So what is it? You don't want a D no matter what, or you have a line that once crossed would cause you to file for D yourself?
Iowa, I get the impression you're a little spoiled. And you want everything on your terms. "I don't want a D but I don't want a wife that doesn't posts nude photos online!" That ship has already sailed. Now what?
And then you break the advice to leave her alone for now, invite her for Halloween?!? And then start pressuring and pursuing with the "I'm attracted to you" you talk?
This would have been better "I want to spend Halloween with my kids, I will pick them up tomorrow night at 5:30" When she balked. You say, "ok, let's decide when I will have them tomorrow night and when you will." Because I'm telling you, you're headed for divorce, you might as well practice co-parenting now.
I'm was asking if it is ALL controlling and passive aggressive. I can't force someone out of a bedroom any more than I can force someone out of a house, can't I?
Dude you need to let go of what I said in the heat of the moment. I acknowledge it was wrong and I didn't follow up. Do you hold onto little mistakes your wife makes too? you've mentioned all the time.
You guys keep saying that I don't get to control her. I get that. But how is moving her stuff out of the MBR not controlling or an attempt to control her. That's my question. No one has answered it.
I think the message I'm getting is that I need to file. That seems to be the only action I can take that will establish a boundary and show her that I won't tolerate her posting of nude photos.
Wow. I think we are seeing a bit of the dynamics going on in your marriage. This post is the first time I've seen you acknowledge that what you said in the heat of the moment was a mistake. That is all I was trying to get you to see. Instead you kept comparing it to us telling you that IF SHE DOESN'T STOP POSTING NUDE PHOTOS ONLINE then move her out of the bedroom. Notice the big if there?
And yes, you can insist someone sleep somewhere else. There is no legal requirement that she gets the MBR. Most states make it illegal to kick a spouse out of the house though since they are co-owners of the dwelling (or co-leasers).
And no one is telling you to file. What we are telling you is that taking that off the table entirely is a mistake. Your first post was asking how to save your marriage. When you got advice to that end then you switched to you being the WAS.
It really feels like you came here to argue. I truly am sorry you are going through this. Having had a similar thing happen with my W (sending nude photos to an EAP), I related to you. But you seem to be right-fighter, and as I already pointed out to you, being right doesn't always equal being happy. As a former right-fighter myself I can tell you that it rarely does.
You made a good point. I have been guilty of holding past statements over people's heads. Thanks for the reminder on that. I will never mention what you said to her in the heat of the moment again.
God bless you, I truly hope you are able to save your marriage.
Iowa - one of the hardest DB principals is the no R talk . It goes against everything you want to do or say. It’s a must though . Let her work through her emotions with out any pressure . Just smile and be polite .
The family events or holidays just set up a time you will be taking the kids alone . Have fun when you are with them . Like real fun . It may feel off at first but you will get stronger . The stronger you the better .
Even if she hasn't dropped the bomb?
She is not in the home . Yes now . No pressure . Smile . Be pleasant . No relationship talks .
If she talks you listen . Become the best listener out there . The non sense my H talked about I just sat there and listened too . I am not a very good validator but I am learning to just listen calmly .
GAL is important. The more you appear needy the less attractive . You will start to enjoy GAL. I once in awhile would throw out a feeler about family time . I learned quickly the more I brought it up the more he would pull away . I stopped asking all together . But was always friendly but a bit distant .
You are going to make mistakes . We all do . Brush it off and get back up .
Had Halloween. I went over to my SIL's house as we had discussed. I didn't bring up anything. I ended up taking the kids out in her sisters neighborhood with their cousins. I acted like everything was okay with the family. With little kids we made it maybe a couple blocks before they got tired. So it wasn't long. I had my own wolf man mask on, so I really couldn't talk. Score!
Then I made an excuse and quickly got back to our house. My W kept saying that we'd probably get egged or TP'ed since there was no one to hand out candy. I thought she was being silly but didn't say anything. As I thought, kids don't do that anymore.
I then did something dumb. I came home and was sad by the empty house with the Halloween decorations started. I saw my wife had posted a picture of her in a "slutty" nurse costume earlier that day. I was upset. So I started drinking, got tipsy and put a profile on tinder. I then passed out. I had to call out today and I'm feeling it. Not fun.
I was thinking about boundaries and ultimatums. do you think the WAS had ultimatums in their mind before they walked away. I mean it seems logical.
Interesting.
Had Halloween. I went over to my SIL's house as we had discussed. I didn't bring up anything. I ended up taking the kids out in her sisters neighborhood with their cousins. I acted like everything was okay with the family. With little kids we made it maybe a couple blocks before they got tired. So it wasn't long. I had my own wolf man mask on, so I really couldn't talk. Score!
Then I made an excuse and quickly got back to our house. My W kept saying that we'd probably get egged or TP'ed since there was no one to hand out candy. I thought she was being silly but didn't say anything. As I thought, kids don't do that anymore.
I then did something dumb. I came home and was sad by the empty house with the Halloween decorations started. I saw my wife had posted a picture of her in a "slutty" nurse costume earlier that day. I was upset. So I started drinking, got tipsy and put a profile on tinder. I then passed out. I had to call out today and I'm feeling it. Not fun.
I was thinking about boundaries and ultimatums. do you think the WAS had ultimatums in their mind before they walked away. I mean it seems logical.
Interesting.
What the H*LL? Why is this person trying to pretend to be me. They are sick.
Had Halloween. I went over to my SIL's house as we had discussed. I didn't bring up anything. I ended up taking the kids out in her sisters neighborhood with their cousins. I acted like everything was okay with the family. With little kids we made it maybe a couple blocks before they got tired. So it wasn't long. I had my own wolf man mask on, so I really couldn't talk. Score!
Then I made an excuse and quickly got back to our house. My W kept saying that we'd probably get egged or TP'ed since there was no one to hand out candy. I thought she was being silly but didn't say anything. As I thought, kids don't do that anymore.
I then did something dumb. I came home and was sad by the empty house with the Halloween decorations started. I saw my wife had posted a picture of her in a "slutty" nurse costume earlier that day. I was upset. So I started drinking, got tipsy and put a profile on tinder. I then passed out. I had to call out today and I'm feeling it. Not fun.
I was thinking about boundaries and ultimatums. do you think the WAS had ultimatums in their mind before they walked away. I mean it seems logical.
Interesting.
What the H*LL? Why is this person trying to pretend to be me. They are sick.
LOL........yeah. Next time you might want to make sure you have signed into the right account before posting...Many Worries.
I was thinking about boundaries and ultimatums. do you think the WAS had ultimatums in their mind before they walked away. I mean it seems logical.
You tell us--did she give you an ultimatum before leaving? An ultimatum would be telling you what to do. "You better change this, or else!" They aren't silent. You can't tell someone what to do silently.
My partner--and many WAS--discovered boundaries. Exactly what DB proposes. Mine told herself, "If we fight one more time, I'm leaving." Her boundary was silent. It didn't seek to control me. She wouldn't accept living in a relationship where we fought every day or even every few days.
I wish my WAS gave me an ultimatum. She only ever said a long time ago ... "If you cheat on me I'll leave" and that was a casual conversation, not even a serious threat (don't remember what we were talking about).
The closest she came to telling me she wanted a D was when I asked her if she cared about me and why she was so distant, and she said "I'm here because of [oldest daughter]" - that really scared me but she wouldn't elaborate further than that.
I wish she had told me a while ago; "Hey if you don't shape up or don't do this, or if you don't stop travelling I'm leaving" that would have been a much better conversation to have. She admits that she didn't communicate things well, although the other day exasperated she told me "You wanted me to spell it out like this .. {waves hands in front of me}"
She's in a total emotional disarray, a month ago she seemed more stable, I see her regressing. Not sure why.
Hold the phone everybody!!!!! Steve85 accidentally posted a reply to ManyWorries in Iowadazd's thread. Please make sure to check the subject and who the poster is before replying.
CWarrior and Augusto, I think you may want to repost your replies in ManyWorries thread.
Iowa, sorry about the confusion. I am sure this was unintentional. No one can impersonate you because the posters name is at the top of the post.
How are you today?
RAI
P.S. Cadet, can you correct this and remove the errant posts?
Hold the phone everybody!!!!! Steve85 accidentally posted a reply to ManyWorries in Iowadazd's thread. Please make sure to check the subject and who the poster is before replying.
CWarrior and Augusto, I think you may want to repost your replies in ManyWorries thread.
Iowa, sorry about the confusion. I am sure this was unintentional. No one can impersonate you because the posters name is at the top of the post.
How are you today?
RAI
P.S. Cadet, can you correct this and remove the errant posts?
NO that is not what happened. Many Worries posted that (see his edited post before me) and then realized he posted as Many Worries instead of Iowadazd. He then went and edited it to "Good luck."
Makes perfect sense. First Many Worries comes on and is arguing with everyone. Then Iowadazd starts posting and is behaving the same way.
I see Steve85 suggesting ManyWorries and Iowadazd posts are from the same person, and Rai suggesting ManyWorries posted in the wrong thread. Cadet et. al can hopefully provide guidance based on IPs. The ManyWorries and Iowadazd stories are incompatible (kids' ages, lengths or relationships).
I see Steve85 suggesting ManyWorries and Iowadazd posts are from the same person, and Rai suggesting ManyWorries posted in the wrong thread. Cadet et. al can hopefully provide guidance based on IPs. The ManyWorries and Iowadazd stories are incompatible (kids' ages, lengths or relationships).
Read the post I quoted. Clearly Many Worries was posting AS Iowadazd....but was logged in as Many Worries. He then went and edited the post that I quoted to "Good luck" to cover his tracks.
OK. I only saw ManyWorries post saying "good luck" - after editing.
Cadet? you out there?
RAI
Read the post I quoted. Clearly Many Worries was posting AS Iowadazd....but was logged in as Many Worries. He then went and edited the post that I quoted to "Good luck" to cover his tracks.
Attn Cadet. If so, their stories are incompatible, indicating possible trolling.
ManyWorries posted 7 years ago he was married and he'd had a brief EA and his wife had a 1-year PA, with kids 7/9--they would be 14 and 16 now. He'd read the DB book twice but often did the opposite of its advice. IowaDazd posted he'd been with this partner 12 years but married 7, with kids 4 and 6.
I thought it was weird with Iowadazd first post was an argumentative post in ovr's discussion thread. It was more in Many Worries' style. Most LBSs don't come here to argue about something before even making their first thread.
It all makes sense now.............
Why would anybody fake an account about something like this? I've seen this before in other types of forums but not for something as painful as this topic. Bizarre!!!
Why would anybody fake an account about something like this? I've seen this before in other types of forums but not for something as painful as this topic. Bizarre!!!
The problem is that this kind of stunt makes people question the validity of anyone's situation. Are they going through the most difficult thing you can go through in life (short of health issues), or are they some sick, demented, lonely person that is just looking for attention at the expense of strangers on the internet. I don't get it.
Lots of things I don't get. My W and I have recently been watching a lot of Live PD. Amazing how many people get pulled over with drugs from marijuana to meth in their vehicle. I don't get how people can ruin their lives with that stuff. The lengths they'll go to for a high, and the forsaking of all else.
Anyway, I am not happy I found what I found earlier.....but I felt it necessary to expose it for the sake of everyone that posts here really wanting to help others that are going through this for real.
OK. I only saw ManyWorries post saying "good luck" - after editing.
Cadet? you out there?
RAI
Yeah - R2C just let me know this was happening.
I can not check IP addresses so if ManyWorries does not come clean - then their may be consequences.
I am still confused. Who is real and who is fake?
RAI
Edit - good question. Cadet
Cadet and I are not able to check the IP addresses. However, we are reviewing the postings of the two posters and a decision will be made on what to do shortly.
OK Mr spoused2 - please explain to us what is going on or else you are not going to get off of moderation.
Wait what is going on now? I thought this had a familiar feel.
Yes I know its also the same person.
Cadet and I have been in communication since yesterday evening about this. The writing style was niggling at me and I swore that I had seen this writing style before...but some of the comments were all too familiar as well.
Steve85, I want to thank you for asking this poster about her/his story again.
If you suspect something, notify us. We will look into it.
THanks guys! I love the fact that this forum has two awesome moderators. I really appreciate all you two do.
Obvious troll is obvious. Thank you Cadet and Job for staying on top of things!