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Posted By: phnix My Story 3 - 10/23/19 12:53 AM
Thread: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2865252&page=11
Well it was a big day for her and what is going on with her job. They called everyone in a meeting and announced the AP would not be returning and that someone else is taking his spot.
My W is pissed because she was in the meeting and feels she was blind sided. The Head boss said that if anyone had any information they could come talk to her. Head boss claimed the job morale was bad and a change needed to take place.
Iíve communicated some with my wife because I feel bad for her. I know I shouldnít but I do have a heart.

She is worried her position may be next. I just need to stay out of the way and let this unfold. Iíve started back coaching so my hours are early to getting home late. Thanks god I will be super busy from now until the end of May. I pretty much work Drs hours as a coach so I will be busy.
Posted By: phnix Re: My Story 3 - 10/24/19 02:15 PM
Can you guys give me some advice for protecting my child in all of this crap that is going on? He is currently at the school and knows what is going on. He is now asking questions and demanding to know if his mom is involved with the Principal. He asked her point blank last night with me standing near by while in the kitchen.

They sent home a letter with every child and he read the letter. It stated that due to the circumstances that can't be discussed there was being a job change.

I'm now concerned about protecting my child in all of this. She has told him that I was never around and I never did anything with the family etc... Almost to make him feel sorry for her. I need advice on protecting my child and doing what is best for him. I haven't told him anything about the truth and I told him that his mom is going through a tough situation right now.
Posted By: LH19 Re: My Story 3 - 10/24/19 02:28 PM
B,

Wow your W is sure is a peace of work. I would suggest you speak with a therapist on the best way to handle the discussion. Until then be there for your son and validate has feelings.
Posted By: fade Re: My Story 3 - 10/24/19 02:55 PM
You are right to be concerned about your son. Based on your actions, you seem to be still most concerned about your WW. I think you should work on redirecting that concern to your son because this situation is really, really bad for him and he has no recourse or protection right now.

One thing you do have is some leverage over the school district. Your son is basically in a hostile environment due to the actions of their employees. You should be able to get them to accommodate requests to change schools or whatever else because they know you/your son could legitimately sue them if they refuse to address this hostile environment. Are you at the same school too? You could both move schools, but my concern is that news like this will follow him/you around to nearby schools, especially with you guys involved in sports which helps spread rumors between schools. I would suggest you seriously look at moving to a different school district ASAP.



And here is something I personally believe very, very strongly is the absolute most important thing you can do for your son - you should tell your son the unvarnished truth about what is actually happening. Knowledge is power and right now he has no power over his own life. Most likely he is in the dark and putting together things from rumors. And like the stereotype BH who is the last to know, all of his peers and teachers talking about this behind his back only further isolates and humiliates him.

Lots of people say that its the lying more than the infidelity that kills a marriage. Well, I'm not a child psychologist in any way but from my experience it is also lying parents that is most damaging to kids. And you purposely withholding this information from him is not protecting him, it is lying by omission and commission. You are taking away any bit of control and self-protection he could have, and instead you are inexplicably providing that protection and control to WW and OM. I believe that kids, especially older kids and teens need at least one parent/authority figure they know they can trust because kids have limited control over their own lives, they need the security of knowing that someone with this control is looking out for them. He knows he cant trust his mom right now - that's something lots of kids can deal with and get over just fine because they still have another parent they can trust. But if you are trying to snow him over too, then there is no one he can trust and the world is a much scarier place.
Posted By: joejoe1 Re: My Story 3 - 10/24/19 02:56 PM
BB,

You can't stop your WW from lying to y'all son. She's going to be looking for sympathy where ever she can get it. Even if it's your son.

But you have to not lie to him, because that would really hurt him. He's not dumb and now he knows what's going on. Do you think his current school is a healthy place for him at the moment?

I would get him line to start speaking with a certified person. He has feelings in all this as well and will need to get them out.

Don't lie to him or try to push aside his feelings and be there for him. He will most likely start attaching himself too you. Make as much time for him as possible. And listen and validate his feelings.

Joejoe
Posted By: neffer Re: My Story 3 - 10/24/19 02:59 PM
Completely agree with LH. Get some pro advice about how to have that talk. You need to protect your S and you need to speak with some truths...

Stay strong there BB.
Posted By: ovrrnbw Re: My Story 3 - 10/24/19 03:19 PM
I would avoid the therapist, but I am not hating on LH or Neffer here. I'm leery of therapists.

But I agree with the others, that it has reached the point where you just tell him. Don't badmouth your W like she did you. Kids pick up on this. My dad badmouthed my mom several times during and after their divorce, my mom never did. Now her hands weren't perfectly clean but she did this part right.

99% of the sitches we see have an OM/OW. I'm sure my parents' divorce involved one. So I'd say to your boy that it's nothing out of the ordinary as far as divorce goes, but it hurts like hell. Give him a big ole hug and tell him how y'all are getting through this as a family (that doesn't seem to include your W currently) and are going to focus on doing the right thing every day.
Posted By: hoosjim Re: My Story 3 - 10/24/19 03:36 PM
Add my name to the chorus of "He needs to know the unvarnished truth." This is not always the case in these situation, IMO, and sometimes discretion is called for, but here, he pretty much knows or strongly suspects the worst of it. You don't want him to end up resenting you, too, because you kept things from him or failed to take steps to protect him from any kind of taunting or bullying at school because of the situation. The way you go about handling it is delicate, though. Don't necessarily want it to come out as a vindictive you "diming your wife out" and trashing her to him. Still, HE has asked. He needs to know truth, particularly if he asks YOU. You CANT lie to him. Not saying he needs to know all the grim and dirty details (when, where, specific acts, etc), but he needs to know the situation.

ALSO, VERY IMPORTANT-- since he knows and will likely know more, you need to show him what a strong, confident man and father looks like, here. Don't be bullied by your wife, and don't take any of her crap. Doesnt mean you have to be a jerk, just... strong. This is an opportunity, even as your son is suffering, for you to provide a great example for him that will help him down the line in his own life and relationships, and could very well protect your relationship with him from succumbing to a rift that might be hard to bridge down the road. Best to address the situation NOW, and do so decisively and confidently. Not sure i know the exact words to use, here, although i think Sandi2 has addressed it from time to time, and there is some discussion of it on my threads which i don't have time to go dig out right now. My sitch was somewhat similar to yours in that sports teams were involved-- my sons played HS football with OM's son, and both of us were part-time volunteer coaches for team. So I myself had to contemplate this prospect myself, in some depth, but, thankfully, it never came to me having to tell anything to my sons as the matter never became public and my wife broke off the affair before it became as involved as the one your W is in. And, obviously, i ended up reconciling so "all is good" I am pretty sure that one of my boys suspected what was up, but W ended affair and we turned it around before boys had a chance to find out. I confronted OM and called him out on it and warned him off, in semi-public but not publicly, and told my boys at some point later, after OM had spoken to one of them, that he was "no longer a friend of this family" and when asked why: "Details don't concern you" (And at that point, they didnt) "Sometimes people you think are your friends aren't really your friends... trust is important to me and he turned out to be someone i couldn't trust. In that regard, I felt i had protected myself and my relationship with the boys, and set a good example if somehow later it did come out. As to the prospect of telling them about the actual affair, i was repeatedly cautioned by others not to do so "as a weapon" or for the sole purpose of "getting back at" my wife, which i thought was good advice, but, at the same time, received alot of advice not to lie to them. It never came about so can't say for certain what i would have done and said, but i did tell W on more than one occasion: "I am not going to lie to our sons", and i was serious about that.

Good luck, God bless... This is a bad situation with no painless path forward-- sending up prayers that it turns out for the best for you.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: My Story 3 - 10/24/19 05:39 PM
BB, I am with Fade and Jim on this, be honest and truthful with your son. I am not saying throw your W under the bus, but I am saying to have a heart-to-heart with him and explain what happened. When I was a kid my parents were having trouble and I didn't know it until my dad pulled me aside and told me. He did not blame my mom for anything, he simply told me the facts. He said he didn't understand what was happening with her but that she was being very cold and distant. She had started coming home and going into the bedroom and closing the door and not interacting with any of us. He said he got a call from an apartment complex wanting to confirm the lease, he said he could only assume she was planning on moving out but he didn't know when or why. That had to be one of the hardest conversations he's ever had with me, maybe the hardest. He didn't get emotional, he didn't blame, he didn't accept guilt, he simply shared what he knew with me and treated me like I was mature enough to understand.

Do the same for your son, he will appreciate you more than ever.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: My Story 3 - 10/24/19 05:43 PM
Also I have a question:

Originally Posted by bballer1
They called everyone in a meeting and announced the AP would not be returning and that someone else is taking his spot.


Assistant principal? I think OM is the principal, correct? So this person that isn't "returning" was someone else? Is there some correlation to that person being dismissed and your W's affair? Trying to understand how everything ties together.
Posted By: 44tries2 Re: My Story 3 - 10/24/19 06:34 PM
AS, Iím pretty sure in this case AP is for Affair Partner. My understanding is the principal is the AP/OM and the one removed from the job.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: My Story 3 - 10/24/19 07:00 PM
Originally Posted by 44tries2
AS, Iím pretty sure in this case AP is for Affair Partner. My understanding is the principal is the AP/OM and the one removed from the job.


AAAH! That does make more sense. Wow, so the ramifications are finally coming home to roost for them.
Posted By: phnix Re: My Story 3 - 10/25/19 01:40 PM
AP is affair partner - he is no longer the Principal. They moved him to another location. He was not fired.
Posted By: Tryhard Re: My Story 3 - 10/26/19 12:00 AM
So bballer1,
How is the galling doing? , you have a lot going for you , if most people had the chance to swap your position with theirs I would expect more than 66% would swap in an instance . You have a great value , do not let how you feel or the present predicament sway your thoughts otherwise . Vikings rule dood , you can do it !!
Posted By: phnix Re: My Story 3 - 10/27/19 03:33 AM
ďTHĒ, Played golf today and then came home and watched football. Galling has been difficult due to living in a rural area and not much to do. I donít have a lot of friends and hang out at my moms most of the time. As I detach, so does she but itís best for me to continue doing it.

I think my best course of action is to just not have any communication with her at all. I continually have anger due to this situation and the both of us being public figures.

She has no interest in the marriage and wants me to file for divorce. Iím not ready to do that and willing to wait it out for her to file. Unfortunately she is quiet happy continuing to live a ďdouble lifeĒ.

Because this has gone public I have had many people call and ask about our situation. This seems to make it worse and gives me feelings of shame due to it happening and due to me knowing that it is still going on. I know her well enough to know that she is continuing the affair.
Posted By: phnix Re: My Story 3 - 10/29/19 01:36 AM
Had a good day at work. Practice went well and I got home fairly late. She wanted to talk about her day so I listened and validated. As soon as she was done I didnít share my day but left the room and went to my room.
Yesterday wasnít a good day due to her waking me up about my brother making a comment on a social media post in regards to the affair. The comment was deleted so she wanted to know what he said and I refused to question him.

She became angry and said she was filing for divorce today. Well that never happened. She didnít text me all day and I didnít text her as well. So much going on here that Iím glad Iíve got my sport going on. This will take up so much of my time and it will give me a chance to not be around.

I donít think she will file for divorce so Iím in this for the long haul. Iíve realized the longer she continues her affair the more damage she will do to herself and her own conscience. Iíve been there before almost 17 years ago. It ruins your soul.

She will come to her senses someday and the regret will be very tough on her.
Posted By: phnix Re: My Story 3 - 10/31/19 05:16 PM
Well I've had a good couple of days. Getting stronger and letting her go out of my mind. It has been a relief.
She tried to be affectionate last night after three days of not any talking. I told her she needed to respect my boundaries and return to her room.

I told her on Sunday that any and all communication needed to be only about our boys. I would not text or reply otherwise. She has text this morning thanking me for being kind the past 2 months. I did not respond.

Now why I have finally decided to let go? My experience has been like most others, in that I have caught her time and time again. Well Sunday her apple watch was beside my bed and I just couldn't resist. She was talking with her friend about things her and the OM were talking about. She even mentioned that she was jealous and mad because the OM was talking to another "pretty teacher". It's like finally a light bulb went off and now I am done and I have accepted that it will never change.

I can not believe how crazy I have been for the past 5 months. All the worrying and sleepless nights over someone that treats me like this and not having enough self-respect to set boundaries. I have now realized that I will make my own happiness. I have now realized that I can only control myself and what I do. No one can make someone love them or change their mind. It has to be that person that makes the decision.

I am going to continue moving forward and I am not going to allow myself to go backwards anymore. Oh, and as for the watch. I gave it to her last night and told her to no longer charge it in my room. Moving forward and upward!!!
Posted By: Tryhard Re: My Story 3 - 11/01/19 12:45 PM
Thatís good , but be prepared to be drawn back in . Hopefully you can get doing something you always wanted to do but couldnít . Any ideas ?
Posted By: neffer Re: My Story 3 - 11/01/19 02:12 PM
Onward and upward. Go man!

Keep detaching and moving forward. Be the lighthouse for your kids. Shine there BB!
Posted By: phnix Re: My Story 3 - 11/01/19 06:57 PM
I can't think of a thing I would want to do at this point. I have always wanted to get out of this rural area and Coach in a bigger city and at a bigger school. I've had many opportunities to move but didn't take the job because my stitch never wanted to leave her family. I was in an urban area for 5 years coaching and had a blast. I transferred back closer to home so I could spend more time with my family.

The only problem with doing that is my son would have to choose who to live with and it would make things more difficult going forward. I know I wouldn't want to only see him on the weekends etc... He would probably choose to live with me but you never know.

She has been trying to draw me back in almost like "temp checking" just see if I am still concerned about her. She got upset last night and threatened to file today. She then text me this morning that she wasn't going to do anything out of anger or emotions. Claims we need time apart, which is code for I want to continue my relationship with the OM. She is playing games and I am fed up. I left last night and went to town to my mothers house. Guess who showed up? She drives up and spends 30 minutes talking with my mother. Games, Games, and more games. She is just playing games. I am tired of the games, finally!!!!

I have contacted my lawyer today. I am gathering paperwork and information to help minimize the legal cost down the road. I am not ready to file myself because I still have fear that I may regret it. Unfortunately that fear is more so for my son.

I sat my son down and told him the truth. I told him I was thinking about filing for divorce and that it wasn't fair to him for all of us having to live this way. His response was "no, don't do that right now." He would rather us sleep in different beds and be together than see us split up. I guess I am going to stick it out for a little while. When I know for sure I want to proceed with divorce then I will make the decision.

The paralegal I spoke with said if she knows you know and continues to see the OM then you have to leave or do something. She claims that by doing nothing then I am complicit with what is going on. I quickly told her that most lawyers suggest to not leave the marital home. Besides I could never leave my son behind.
Posted By: hoosjim Re: My Story 3 - 11/01/19 07:12 PM
Your paralegal/lawyer could be spot on depending on the law in your state. I am a lawyer myself, and though i do not endeavor in that field (domestic law) myself, i am conversant enough in legalese and did enough legwork myself during my own ordeal to know the ins and outs. Bottom line is that in some states... SOME states, mind you... adultery (if it can be "proven", which is not always easy unless you hire an investigator to gather the evidence) is an absolute bar to spousal support being awarded. There are other ramifications, too, including possibly custodianship of the kids, i believe. UNLESS, that is, you "consent" to the relationship by allowing it to go on without objection (And what you have to do to "object" may also depend on your state). At any rate, your lawyer is absolutely right that if you "know about it" (and in your case it sounds like EVERYBODY knows about it-- sorry) and do/say nothing, you may be waiving substantial rights you would/will have down the road (along with any leverage over her that such rights would entail.)

You really need to have a detailed convo with your lawyer about that aspect of it... know your rights.

Good luck!!
Posted By: phnix Re: My Story 3 - 11/04/19 05:10 PM
WOW! "Tryhard", you were exactly right. She has canceled her appointment with the lawyer. She was begging me to spend time with her this weekend. She was emotional when our boys were spending a lot of time together in their room. Not sure what that was all about.

Friday night she asked if she could go out to eat with us and I said it was fine. I am not naive enough to believe that she all of a sudden had a change of heart. I do think that she is trying to play "games" with me for some crazy reason but who knows. She could be trying to make our situation easier. Why all of a sudden does she want to spend time with me and the family? She cooked dinner for our family after church and we all sat down to eat together.

I believe this change of heart could come from a lot of things. I do know that last week she was continuing to talk to him so this behavior has thrown me for a loop. Why the all of a sudden change. She is telling me she misses me and that she loves me etc....

Does this happen all the time in these situations? She says things like she feels so sorry for the OM's wife, she really hopes they can get back together. What? He has already signed the papers. She is done with his butt. It's just a matter of weeks before their divorce will be final.
Posted By: LH19 Re: My Story 3 - 11/04/19 05:42 PM
Tread very carefully!
Posted By: phnix Re: My Story 3 - 11/04/19 05:50 PM
I agree. We shall see how it goes this week but I am going to continue to collect information for my lawyer.
Posted By: ovrrnbw Re: My Story 3 - 11/04/19 09:12 PM
I'm going to recommend that you move very slowly, decline at least every other invitation from her. I know you want to work it out with her, but I made the mistake of taking her back too soon (for the same reason as you) and it burned me several times.

Take it as a one time thing that was nice, and don't try to read into it IMO.
Posted By: Thornton Re: My Story 3 - 11/04/19 09:18 PM
I second what ovrrnbw said. Be careful.

My ex came back 3x times and I fell for her crocodile tears and empty promises and let her back in too easily. After our honeymoon periods, things went right back to how they were. I could have avoided so much pain if I took things a lot slower.
Posted By: DonH Re: My Story 3 - 11/04/19 11:09 PM
While I've read along somewhat, I don't intimately know all of the ins and outs going on in your sitch. However, from what I see and have read, you believe your W is having an affair. On Friday she got upset and said she was going to file for D. Then later into the weekend she wanted to spend time with you and said ILY. My first thought is she had a fight with the OM or he has or is likely to break it off with her. It would be VERY VERY ODD that if things are going well with an OM that a WAW or WW would all of a sudden want to come back. Be very aware of this.

Now if that has happened or for whatever reason she is poking her head out of the rabbit hole, you really have to proceed carefully or she will go right back in. The books talk about this. You've gotten some advice on it already. Take it day by day, refuse some requests to spend time together simply saying, Oh, sorry, I've already got plans.

You don't want to scare her back in - and you also don't want to be her Plan B if she's having a rough patch with her AP.
Posted By: phnix Re: My Story 3 - 11/05/19 12:04 AM
DonH,
I know thatís exactly what has happened. The OM has broken it off or they had an argument and she felt lonely. Probably why she repeatedly stated that she misses me. The OM is almost divorced and buying a new home within the next couple of weeks.

Saturday morning I woke up and she was in our bed. Probably had an argument Friday night and she came back to our bedroom. She claims it is her bed too!! I hate to argue and fight. Itís not in my nature to be mean but how cruel can she be by playing these games.

Trying to figure out why she mentions just now that she feels sorry for his wife. Why does she think they will get back together? He must be telling her he wants too. Who knows what is going on. Iíve got to continue to protect my heart or there will be no coming back from this pain.

She did mention the OM was manipulative too. Even stated to me that we both were manipulative so that explains why she felt the way she did. She was upset at him.
Posted By: phnix Re: My Story 3 - 11/05/19 03:30 PM
If she has strong feelings for him and has told me so, then I suspect it will take a long time for her to get over this ordeal. That is why I have got to take it slow. I know my stitch well enough to know that she fell in love with this guy. I also know that my stitch has strong attachment and bonding issues with whoever she is involved with.

We may have been together for 23 years but she was this way with most of the guys she dated in high school. I've got to decide whether or not I truly want to wait this out. I do not believe that she will leave or move out or she would have done it already.

Eventually I will have to decide if I want this kind of relationship. she has made it clear she is worried our marriage will go back to the way it was and she will feel unhappy. She has also mentioned she is worried she may do this again due to those feelings. She did not say that exactly but that is what I gathered from her explanation. She has explained she is trying to understand how she could have done something this horrible.
Posted By: ovrrnbw Re: My Story 3 - 11/05/19 05:20 PM
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I know my stitch well enough to know that she fell in love with this guy.
This statement bothers me, because you're basing your decisions off of other people's actions. I get that to a point, but you know this? And even in knowing, there's a certain amount of ambiguity involved here. She loves him so much that she makes him share her? She loves him so much that she's telling you she misses you and loves you? No, this is not love my friend. Time to focus on Bballer.

If your W felt so much for OM's W, would she have had the affair? I think not. Time to focus on BBaller.

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Eventually I will have to decide if I want this kind of relationship. she has made it clear she is worried our marriage will go back to the way it was and she will feel unhappy. She has also mentioned she is worried she may do this again due to those feelings. She did not say that exactly but that is what I gathered from her explanation. She has explained she is trying to understand how she could have done something this horrible.

I certainly understand her confusion, worry, and guilt. There's been a lot going.

I hope you validated and bailed out of that convo.
Posted By: Traveler Re: My Story 3 - 11/05/19 05:42 PM
Originally Posted by overTheRainbow
If your W felt so much for OM's W, would she have had the affair? I think not. Time to focus on BBaller.

Interesting idea. Reading the last months from the AP's perspective, this WW still looks selfish and unloving. Sex, attraction, and the dream of a future lost could also take some mourning to get over.
Posted By: phnix Re: My Story 3 - 11/05/19 05:50 PM
I did validate and just listened. Probably should have bailed on the convo but did not. This is very tough to endure and know that what you are doing is going to hurt or help the situation.

I know that I need to continue to focus on me and what I got going on at the present moment with my job. Thanks for the support and advice.
Posted By: phnix Re: My Story 3 - 11/05/19 06:12 PM
CWarrior, I agree with what you are saying and that's why it is important for me to focus on myself and my boys. If my situation were to work out for my family then it would take a while for her to get over the AP. This isn't going to happen over night nor anytime soon.

I can see a little bit of depression or withdrawal due to her going to bed early and complaining of always being cold. She also engrosses herself in her work while at home. I know there is no figuring her out!!

For a bonus is the fact that the community is still bringing it up on social media etc.... so it will be the topic of ddiscussion in our community for a while.

Going to be a long road. Looking onward and upward!!!
Posted By: phnix Re: My Story 3 - 11/06/19 03:19 PM
She has come back to the bedroom and I am afraid I may be making a mistake to allow her back. She hasn't been on her phone while in the bed etc..... She does most of the talking and I validate.

I guess if she becomes suspicious or secretive then I will ask her to go back to sleeping in the other room. She has been super busy with her job. Her main concern is doing her job and she has been happy due to everyone being very supportive of her at work.

Trying to move very slowly.
Posted By: hoosjim Re: My Story 3 - 11/06/19 04:17 PM
Quote
She has come back to the bedroom and I am afraid I may be making a mistake to allow her back. She hasn't been on her phone while in the bed etc..... She does most of the talking and I validate.

I guess if she becomes suspicious or secretive then I will ask her to go back to sleeping in the other room. She has been super busy with her job. Her main concern is doing her job and she has been happy due to everyone being very supportive of her at work.


Idk, man... Has she made any overt indications she is finished with OM? That she is remorseful for what she did? That she is ready to commit to working on the MR with you. She cheated. Alot. And she knows you know she did. Heck, everyone seems to know. And until proven otherwise she is wayward. The separation (her being out of the MBR if not the house) is for you. Her coming back in without your permission and without a demonstrated willingness to come back to the MR shows a lack of respect for you. And a WW, or any W, for that matter, can't get loving feelings back for H if she doesn't respect him.

She needs to do the work to "come back", and, IMO, she ain't "done the work" yet... nor has she even indicated she is interested in "doing the work."

JMHO
Posted By: LH19 Re: My Story 3 - 11/06/19 04:36 PM
I agree with HJ. Sounds like she may just trying to slide back in and act like nothing happened.

I would tell her ďI donít think itís a good idea that you sleep in here right nowĒ.
Posted By: phnix Re: My Story 3 - 11/06/19 05:16 PM
No she hasn't made any indications as to being committed to our relationship. I have not really pushed the issue. She has done little things like give me access to her phone which I declined and made changes such as not being on her phone or the computer while in the bedroom.

Her only concern right now is going above and beyond with her job. She has taken on more responsibilities and she is happy her colleagues have been so supportive of her. When we talk she primarily talks about her job and the support she is getting.

She has claimed there is no more communication between them however she expresses feeling sorry for what he is going through with his divorce and being moved from his position. I know this pisses me off when she makes those statements.

She may just be afraid I may use the proof I have to have him fired for good and she is trying to protect the both of them. Who knows what her intentions are in her current behavior. I could easily use the proof I have to have the OM removed and not being able to work again in his field for at least 3 years. Problem is it may in turn have implications for my wife.

Her only statement has been that she misses me. I'm not sure if that is WW talk for meaning something else. I'm sure it is only a matter of time before her behavior changes again. It's a struggle trying to put it all together.
Posted By: phnix Re: My Story 3 - 11/06/19 05:19 PM
Does anyone else have experience with a WW saying they miss them?
Posted By: ovrrnbw Re: My Story 3 - 11/06/19 06:09 PM
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Her only concern right now is going above and beyond with her job.
That's her concern, it doesn't require her sleeping next to you for her to accomplish.

Quote
Does anyone else have experience with a WW saying they miss them?
I do. I can tell you from experience to take it at face value and attach no other meanings to it. Assume OM is still in the picture.

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It's a struggle trying to put it all together.
The way you phrase, it makes it sound like it was hard but now you understand it. I don't think that is the case. You need to put the brakes on this. Maybe mention that nothing has changed and she should continue sleeping in the other bedroom.

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]She has claimed there is no more communication
Yea but why? And for how long? I heard this line several times and it burned me. Don't play with fire.
Posted By: hoosjim Re: My Story 3 - 11/06/19 09:15 PM
Quote
She has claimed there is no more communication between them however she expresses feeling sorry for what he is going through with his divorce and being moved from his position. I know this pisses me off when she makes those statements.


Context is important, here, and, when appropriate, you should be listening to her and validating, but... Her agonizing to you about "Poor poor OM" or feeling sorry for him or any dreck like that is not...and i repeat NOT (all caps intended)... a conversation topic you should be entertaining from her. SHE SLEPT WITH THIS DUDE!! WHILE MARRIED TO YOU!! Such conversations are EXTREMELY disrespectful towards your MR and towards you, and, IMHO, they should be cut off as soon as she starts... with extreme prejudice: "You know, W, I understand you are going through a difficult time, but I am not at all interested in hearing about OM's struggles, difficulties, or how sorry you feel for him." Maybe i am off base here and, if so, Sandi or one of the other WW pros can correct me, but pretty sure i recall reading on more than one occasion that, even though you are DB-ing and even though you are in "validation" mode, that you do not need to entertain such discussions.

If and when you two are committed to reconciling the marriage, she has committed to no more OM and no more inappropriate opposite sex relationships of any type, and you two are in counselling, then, and only then, MAYBE it will be okay to explore those subjects... and it may even be necessary. Maybe. But your counselor will be able to best advise/lead you on such matters.
Posted By: neffer Re: My Story 3 - 11/07/19 02:08 PM
Sheīs light years from where she needs to be to get into some recovery. Maybe she has guilt, shame, withdrawal feelings. I was a WW some time ago. We are addicts. Itīs not like uplugging a fuse.

Thereīs a process to recovery. We all need willingness to do that. It takes time and professional help. Sheīs not there.

Time and patience BB. Protect yourself, protect your kids. Keep DB

(((BB)))
Posted By: phnix Re: My Story 3 - 11/07/19 05:05 PM
I took her to her Dr's appointment yesterday because she wouldn't be able to drive home. We didn't do a lot of talking other than how our day went.

She was upset because I walked into her school and down to her room. It's not like it was a problem because I taught there also and know everyone that works at the school.
She later said she felt shame because of me being in the school. Somehow she wants this to disappear or go away but it will not unless we move. For some reason she doesn't want to be seen with me in public or feels shame if we are together. I don't really understand this one.

She thinks that because I go to church this keeps people talking about it. I told her the one way to shut them up is to come to church with me and the boys. That would shut them up.

Last night someone else posted her name on social media and she was very upset. She began to blame me because I told the OM's wife and shared messages with her. She continually blames me and the OM's wife for the truth being out in the open. I guess she will never take ownership for her mistake.

She says she is sorry for the pain she has caused me. She also claims she is scared because of the uncertainty. She is totally lost.
Posted By: LovingIt Re: My Story 3 - 11/07/19 05:07 PM
Originally Posted by neffer

...
I was a WW some time ago. We are addicts. Itīs not like uplugging a fuse.
...


Neffer -

You were a WW? why are you here? where is your sitch / thread?

I've read all of Sandi's threads, but always trying to gather more data points and understand more from WW perspective.
Posted By: neffer Re: My Story 3 - 11/07/19 05:29 PM
Originally Posted by LovingIt
Originally Posted by neffer

...
I was a WW some time ago. We are addicts. Itīs not like uplugging a fuse.
...


Neffer -

You were a WW? why are you here? where is your sitch / thread?

I've read all of Sandi's threads, but always trying to gather more data points and understand more from WW perspective.


here LI
https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...ain=61472&Number=2797870#Post2797870


Originally Posted by bballer1

She was upset because I walked into her school and down to her room. It's not like it was a problem because I taught there also and know everyone that works at the school.
She later said she felt shame because of me being in the school. Somehow she wants this to disappear or go away but it will not unless we move. For some reason she doesn't want to be seen with me in public or feels shame if we are together. I don't really understand this one.

She thinks that because I go to church this keeps people talking about it. I told her the one way to shut them up is to come to church with me and the boys. That would shut them up.

Last night someone else posted her name on social media and she was very upset. She began to blame me because I told the OM's wife and shared messages with her. She continually blames me and the OM's wife for the truth being out in the open. I guess she will never take ownership for her mistake.

She says she is sorry for the pain she has caused me. She also claims she is scared because of the uncertainty. She is totally lost.


Validate feelings. We feel shame. We are sorry for the pain we have caused too. Those are true feelings.
And yes, we are completely lost. I saw my Wīs light when sailing inside that storm.

Shine!

Keep DB. DB rules in effect
Posted By: phnix Re: My Story 3 - 11/07/19 06:11 PM
neffer,
Was your wife DB'ing? Did she let it go and become happy on her own? Is this when you saw the light? How long after discovery day before you decided to cut off the relationship with the OW?
Posted By: neffer Re: My Story 3 - 11/07/19 08:39 PM
MLCs and WWīness are much more complex that a timeline BB. Far more complex. Read my sitch. Itīs all there. My W didnīt DBed me. I found DB and I DBed myself.

Iīm here. Still DBing.
Posted By: phnix Re: My Story 3 - 11/08/19 03:22 PM
neffer, thanks for the support. I truly believe that my wife's affair is also due to MLC. Our oldest son just graduated high school. Before the affair she was going on and on about getting older etc... She was worried about turning 40 and knowing that she was running out of time with her looks etc... This is all I heard from her last year.

Seems to me she was contemplating the affair at the time. Not sure what the future holds but I do know that it will take some time. I just keep struggling with the fact that she is unable to cut of ties with the OM.

Early last week I knew she was speaking to him. From her behavior the past couple of days I suspect she is continuing to speak to him although she stopped during the weekend which explains her behavior and neediness.
Posted By: LH19 Re: My Story 3 - 11/08/19 03:37 PM
B,

I want to caution you about using MLC as an excuse.

Your W is displaying a many red flags that she is not a long term suitable partner for you. Go back and read your threads and try to view at as an outsider with no skin in the game.

Iím not saying it canít be fixed but it would be a really, really difficult.
Posted By: phnix Re: My Story 3 - 11/08/19 05:05 PM
I tried to get her to get insurance on herself and I would take the boys. I let her talk me out of it because she said what would I do if I lose my job?? Would have been a good time to say well you should have thought about that while you were having the affair. Darn!!

Missed a good opportunity to show some self respect.
Posted By: LH19 Re: My Story 3 - 11/08/19 05:20 PM
Come on man. Words donít get respect. Only actions do.
Posted By: phnix Re: My Story 3 - 11/08/19 05:28 PM
"LH19",
Yes, I have reread my posts several times. The more I read my own posts the more I feel like the only way to get my self-respect and power back is to file for D. She is very intelligent, manipulative, and has lied thousands of times. She did not admit the affair but rather tried to give me trickle truth to get me to leave throughout the summer. And by the way the trickle truth was all lies that involved infidelity with other men. Eventually I caught her and she was back with him the very next morning. Almost 2 months later I cornered her with proof from a message and she still denied it, so I told the OM's wife, and..... just last week i saw proof that she was continuing to talk with him after he was moved from his position at her work place.

I need to prepare for the worse and move forward.
Posted By: LH19 Re: My Story 3 - 11/08/19 05:51 PM
No you file for D when your done and itís not for a reaction. When you realize that life is to short to but up with this bs.
Posted By: phnix Re: My Story 3 - 11/08/19 06:07 PM
"LH19" - I understand what you are saying. I am slowly getting there but it will take me to fully find myself and know with all certainty what I want in my life. I need to put together my plan this weekend and re-evaluate what kind of life I want to have.
Posted By: phnix Re: My Story 3 - 11/11/19 02:10 PM
The weekend went well. Was hard to get out and do anything as she was immobile and needed help with everything at home. She isn't able to move around due to the cut on her foot. I couldn't help it but had to make sure that her and the boys were ok, so I made sure I was available to help with things around the house.

I wasn't going to spend the usual "Sunday Dinner" with her family but her parents insisted and she can't drive due to her situation.

She suggested to me last night that she wants to go to counseling together. She has been seeking individual counseling as well. Do you guys recommend couples counseling if she is unwilling to commit to our marriage with 100% certainty? I have told her in the past that it wouldn't help if she wasn't willing to make a commitment to our marriage.

She claims she is afraid things will be like they were before, that she needs to understand why she would have done this, that she is slowly trying to work on things with me, and this is why she will not give a definite answer to committing to the marriage. I know that I have history and our long term marriage on my side. Counseling may help as I have noticed that she hasn't been suspicious, she has been more attentive, more affectionate, and caring about what is going on in my life and with my job.

What do you guys think about the counseling?
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: My Story 3 - 11/11/19 02:59 PM
Originally Posted by bballer1
She suggested to me last night that she wants to go to counseling together. She has been seeking individual counseling as well. Do you guys recommend couples counseling if she is unwilling to commit to our marriage with 100% certainty? I have told her in the past that it wouldn't help if she wasn't willing to make a commitment to our marriage.

She claims she is afraid things will be like they were before, that she needs to understand why she would have done this, that she is slowly trying to work on things with me, and this is why she will not give a definite answer to committing to the marriage. I know that I have history and our long term marriage on my side. Counseling may help as I have noticed that she hasn't been suspicious, she has been more attentive, more affectionate, and caring about what is going on in my life and with my job.

What do you guys think about the counseling?


A lot of times a WAS will use counseling to forward their agenda of ending the M, that's why we recommend against it. When we went to counseling after BD my XW was mostly kind of checked out until the C suggested a "trial separation", then XW was super into the idea and she was gone in a matter of weeks. So I learned the hard way that MC is usually a bad idea early on. It's also a form of pressure at a time the WAS wants zero pressure. In the end it's up to you, if you think it might help then go ahead and give it a try, but be ready to pull the plug if it goes poorly.
Posted By: phnix Re: My Story 3 - 11/11/19 03:38 PM
"AS", This is exactly why I refused to do it a couple of months ago. During that time period I knew she was still in contact with the OM and being physical with him. Most good advice suggest that counseling is no good if they are in contact with the OM.

Recently she doesn't say anything about contacting the OM but I can put it together. She continues to talk to him because she CARES. She claims she feels guilty for his family and what they are going through with the divorce. She claims he doesn't have any close friends. All of this tells me that she continues the contact because she has strong feelings for him. I've also gathered that she somehow thinks it is ok as long as they are not being physical. Every detail I have discovered in the past has come to be true, every single detail!!!!! If I suspected something, guess what I was always right and I am talking about the 2 months I was in the dark. I know they are not being physical and I know that they still communicate but know where near as much as they once were doing.

Now her behavior over the past two weeks tells me she is trying but still confused. She hasn't given any indication that she is still in contact with him and she claims she has stopped. Do I believe this? NO I believe while at work due to her having more free time and working on her stuff at home that she is communicating with him during that time period. I have realized that she probably has some kind of "hidden agenda". She will also state that she will be the villain in all of this which suggest she wants to find the easiest way out or it suggest that she wants me to be the one to decide to file for divorce. I know that when I bring this up she gets frustrated. She doesn't like me asking for a commitment because she says I am pressuring her and she will not be pressured. She claims that her therapist told her I should be happy she has moved back to the bedroom and that she is making strides toward working on our marriage. I call this all BS!


I do not think counseling will work as long as she is still in contact with him.
Posted By: neffer Re: My Story 3 - 11/11/19 04:47 PM
You are right. She must end contact.

Set boundaries. Main bedroom access is no sense...

Keep DB
Posted By: phnix Re: My Story 3 - 11/11/19 05:17 PM
Well she even mentioned herself that the counseling would be good for us regardless of whether our relationship survived or not. This simply implies that she is not 100% into making this marriage work. Anytime there has been a betrayal this big there has to be total commitment from both parties to overcome it.

To honestly be able to say that implies that she has another agenda set aside for the counseling. Of course, she hasn't been quick to suggest who or where we should go. I'd probably suspect that if I didn't schedule the counseling then it will not happen.
Posted By: neffer Re: My Story 3 - 11/11/19 06:36 PM
Have your own agenda: GAL, detach and keep working on yourself BB.

You must keep DB
Posted By: ovrrnbw Re: My Story 3 - 11/11/19 07:20 PM
I would ask her if she is done with OM and committed to fixing the marriage. If the answer is not a 100% sure yes, then I wouldn't attend counseling.

Let her bring it up though, don't go knocking her door down to figure this out.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: My Story 3 - 11/11/19 07:28 PM
I agree with Neffer and Ovr, your boundary (which it sounds like you are leaning towards anyway) should be no MC unless there is zero contact with OM. MC isn't going to change her mind about things. It might help if she has ALREADY changed her mind, but it's not going to trigger that change of heart.
Posted By: phnix Re: My Story 3 - 11/11/19 07:35 PM
"ovrrnbw", I agree with you. She will lie and say she is done however in conversation I know that she is not telling the truth. She even has denied talking to him a couple of weeks ago and I had proof from her messages with her friend. No she just ignores the convo when I talk about her still being in contact from the messages I read. That is her way of admission without saying it. She even said, you are trying to get me to admit something and I don't like that. Really??
Posted By: Vapo Re: My Story 3 - 11/11/19 07:53 PM
She must purge OM from her system, nothing short of at least one month will do. There can be no relapse, NONE! If relapse occurs, the clock is restarted. Do not believe her words, the WAWs will lie like it's nothing. Show her no compassion, she effed it up, she should show remorse. It comes later, much later... You have to get on with your life, with your activities, do not put your life on hold for her. You have to crush it. Crush it at work, crush it with your boy, crush it with your life. Get in shape, you will feel better. Eat healthy, exercise, get solid sleep.

Watch her actions and trust your inner voice.
Posted By: phnix Re: My Story 3 - 11/12/19 02:42 AM
ďVapoĒ, You are awesome you should be a coach. Maybe you can give my team a pep talk before our game. I like the advice. You are exactly right in what I need to do. She has tried to be nice today but I can see right through her. I told her for me to feel safe she would need to end all contact and commit to the marriage. Then and only then we could go to counseling.

She got really upset and tries to withdraw. She claims she feels like I am pressuring her. She also stated that she has given herself a timeline for making a decision. She said her timeline was around January or after the 1st of the year. She claims she is just wanting to get through the holidays and make sure everything is good at work with her job.

Iíve seriously thought about moving out into my grandmothers house. I need to contact my attorney before I make that decision. I know my 13yr old son will disapprove but I donít have any problem telling him that she is still in contact with the other man and that I need to get out to feel safe and to help me with healing myself.
Posted By: Vapo Re: My Story 3 - 11/12/19 09:13 AM
Do not move out, just don't. There is no victory in retreat. I cannot imagine a scenario where you moving out would be the right thing to do.

I am sure that she is right when she says she feels the pressure from you, so you have to back off, stay out of her hair, stop snooping (I know, easier said than done), and get on with improving you. Back off, relieve the pressure, ask her no questions and she'll tell you no lies. It is hard to believe, but the reality is that the affair drug is as powerful as cocaine or heroin. So for all intents and purposes, your wife is a drug addict. And I am not using the term as a figure of speech.

That being said, thou should not be a dick either. Let her sort herself out on her own timeline, but do not be a shoulder to cry on for her beau. Let her wallow in her own mess and let her clean it up. The trick is that she has to become aware of the mess, of the fact that she created the mess and that it is her job to clean up the mess. If she fails to realize either of these 3 points, she will cycle again.

You cannot do anything to speed up the process, but you sure as hell can do a lot to prolong it.
Posted By: phnix Re: My Story 3 - 11/12/19 01:55 PM
How do I help her become aware of her mess. You would think with exposure, everyone in our small community knowing, and her having to seek another job next year, would have her in an emotional chaos. But she is not, she seems cool as a cucumber and at times singing and happy she is alive.

My fear is that she has a plan and I am not included in that plan. Waiting until January and getting through the holidays seems like she is wanting to take the easy way out of all of this. She mentioned possibly taking another job an hour away come January.

I asked her 3 questions last night and she answered yes to all but the last question. 1st question was, Are you going to take another job out of county? YES, Do you think you will need to move out of the county? YES Do you want us to move out of the county together? MAYBE.
Posted By: phnix Re: My Story 3 - 11/12/19 03:37 PM
"Vapo" I'm sorry I see where you say I can not do anything to speed up the process.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: My Story 3 - 11/12/19 04:00 PM
Originally Posted by bballer1
How do I help her become aware of her mess. You would think with exposure, everyone in our small community knowing, and her having to seek another job next year, would have her in an emotional chaos. But she is not, she seems cool as a cucumber and at times singing and happy she is alive.


Well you certainly cannot "help her" become any more aware than that. Based on your posts I'd say she is acutely aware of the mess. Whether it's affecting her or not is hard to say. WAS's are masters of "acting as if". She is very likely in extreme turmoil inside even though she's acting calm, cool and collected on the outside.

Quote
My fear is that she has a plan and I am not included in that plan.


I guarantee you that is the case. She has a plan for sure. And you are not part of it. If you can effectively remove all pressure then she may or may not follow through with whatever it is. But right now you're still putting a lot of pressure on her with all the R talks and such (3 questions? Pressure.)
Posted By: Augusto Re: My Story 3 - 11/12/19 04:10 PM
Originally Posted by AnotherStander

Well you certainly cannot "help her" become any more aware than that. Based on your posts I'd say she is acutely aware of the mess. Whether it's affecting her or not is hard to say. WAS's are masters of "acting as if". She is very likely in extreme turmoil inside even though she's acting calm, cool and collected on the outside.


That describes my W very well. At the start told me how she has all these "nails" that represent pain, that can't be healed. Then she told me "I feel dead inside". Then in one discussion tells me, "you think I'm depressed but I'm fine". All along, when we talk about certain topics she'll cry to the point of hyperventilation. But you see her sometimes in the morning, and she puts her music and is singing and sometimes even dancing.

Mutual friends that see her once in a while say that she tells them she's struggling. I don't know why she hides all of that ... to fool me, the kids or herself?
Posted By: phnix Re: My Story 3 - 11/12/19 05:27 PM
The one thing that really scares the hell out of me is how they can pretend to be ok and yet speak as if they are confused. I think our stitches become master manipulators and can not stop it. They will continue to tell you they Love you, but unsure of the marriage. They will continue to be intimate to the point of total enjoyment, and then tell you they are unsure of the marriage. They will continue to be affectionate and loving, but tell you they are unsure? They will tell you they worry about you as if they have a lot of compassion for you.

They will tell you that you are a great person, someone else can make you happier, and that you are the best person in the world. Then they turn around when you walk out and contact their AP as if it is like taking a drink from the cup next to their night stand.

I think this is cruel punishment that causes long lasting pain which in turn causes marriages to ultimately fail. The BS will eventually give up and hopes of R are then lost and can not be recovered.

I think that the BS who recognizes this and calls it for what it is without being vindictive shows a lot of courage and self-respect. When this happens we lose so much self-respect and fear controls our interactions and we become blind to the truth. It's only when we remove ourselves that we obtain clarity for what it really is and what we really need. This is most important!!!
Posted By: phnix Re: My Story 3 - 11/13/19 04:06 AM
I sent her out the MB tonight. Hopefully I can break this cycle. I told her she didnít have to text me during the day either. Time to be strong and hopefully I can learn to show tough love from now on.

It was a big mistake allowing her back in the MB. She is so arrogant and selfish. She has no remorse for what she has done. Continues to blame me and OMís wife for her problems. The worse was last night when I mentioned he should be fired because he was her boss. She claimed it was so barbaric for people to lose their jobs because of that. She claimed she could understand if it was a teacher messing with a student. She has no real shame.

This was all due to her accusing me of bugging her electronics. I sent an emoji that she claims he sent her. She got pissed so that tells me it must have been recent. Pure coincidence that I sent it and she accused me. Just goes to show you canít ever hide doing wrong. It comes out one way or another.
Posted By: Vapo Re: My Story 3 - 11/13/19 07:50 AM
Originally Posted by bballer1
I She is so arrogant and selfish. She has no remorse for what she has done. Continues to blame me and OMís wife for her problems. The worse was last night when I mentioned he should be fired because he was her boss. She claimed it was so barbaric for people to lose their jobs because of that. She claimed she could understand if it was a teacher messing with a student. She has no real shame.


First of all, WTF are you talking about him for?!? You are giving him power over you and you are baiting her. Stop doing that. You have to realize he is not the culprit, your W is. She could have just said no to his advances and move on. The problem is she said yes and acted on it. You have to realize if it was not him, it would have been some other dude. Would it hurt you any less if she cheated on you with the plumber? Or the cable guy? I'd say no.

Originally Posted by bballer1

This was all due to her accusing me of bugging her electronics. I sent an emoji that she claims he sent her. She got pissed so that tells me it must have been recent. Pure coincidence that I sent it and she accused me. Just goes to show you canít ever hide doing wrong. It comes out one way or another.


No need to go to any lengths defending yourself. I'd just give her the REALLY WIFE?!? staredown. The WAWs get some sort of sick and perverted pleasure knowing that they are an object of desire of other men. You cannot do anything about it. Let it go. Perhaps you are thinking that if you do not fight for her, she might think you do not care. You have to realize that you are not in her plans. She divorced you at the time of her betrayal and your marriage ended at BD. IF you think that getting a divorce will make any sort of positive impact, you are sadly mistaken. I tried telling you that telling OM's wife was a mistake, but you chose to do it anyway. I understand you. Did it do any good? Nope.

Originally Posted by bballer1

I asked her 3 questions last night and she answered yes to all but the last question. 1st question was, Are you going to take another job out of county? YES, Do you think you will need to move out of the county? YES Do you want us to move out of the county together? MAYBE.


Stop with the questions. It is utterly futile questioning her on anything. By the way, you are reading that last answer wrong. She said: "HELL NO!" You have to learn to read WAW language, but I think you are starting to catch on.

You are doing well, but thing will get harder soon.

Oh yeah, and stop sending her fcukin emoticons. Would you send that emoticon to your business partner? No? So stop sending your W emoticons. Treat your relationship with your estranged spouse like a business relationship, so cordial, but no fcukin emoticons.

And disregards any and all "signs" and gestures from your W, she is confused as hell and you are probably prone to reading all sort of things into your W's actions.
Posted By: joejoe1 Re: My Story 3 - 11/13/19 12:42 PM
BB,

Great job in handling yourself last night. She needed to be kicked out.

I agree with Vapo, stop talking about, mentioning, referring too, pointing at, asking about this OM. Everytime you do that you make him that much more bigger and yourself that much smaller. You give his name power and energy and take the power and energy away from yourself.

Why do you think your WW is still sleeping in the MBR with you. It's one of three reasons:

1. She's trying to give you hope(false) to manipulate you.
2. The OM isn't all that cracked up like she Carry's on. So she's trying her best to hold both vines.
3. A bit of both.

My guess is option 3. If she truly couldn't stand you, she wouldn't be sleeping next to you are talking to you.
You controlled the one option you could.

Her two options she THINKS she has at the moment.

1. Her husband. ( A man that committed to her).
2. A lover (a married lover). A man that committed to another woman and cheated and broke that commitment.

You are the most attractive option, but you have to carry yourself as such
And I think last night was a great start. Stop entertaining her convo about OM, find a confident and assertive way to say, I don't want to discuss anything about you and OM.

Example: She's starts to bring a convo with him as a subject or object.
You: "I don't want to hear about what you and the OM(don't mention his name) has going on! If she continues, Say, " We can continue a conversation when it's not about your A" Get up and walk away.

Keep up the hard work BB.

Joejoe
Posted By: phnix Re: My Story 3 - 11/13/19 01:40 PM
"JJ1", Great way of putting it brother. I am the more attractive option. Going forward will be tough but I am determined to be strong and show tough love at the same time making sure I put my needs 1st.

She has already been texting this morning. Things like, "Are you done with me", "I need face to face counseling". She has also asked about couples counseling.

I told her I would only do couples counseling if 1. She has No Contact with OM 2. You commit to restoring our marriage. Her reply was OKAY.

"OKAY" means I'm not really interested right now.
Posted By: joejoe1 Re: My Story 3 - 11/13/19 03:50 PM
BB,

"Okay, is not a "NO". So keep going down the road you are on.

Her asking, "are you done with me", is a good sign. Ignore that text. You are waiting on the remorse. Her asking that question, and if you don't answer will hopefully lead to her wanting to know. People are fickle creatures. I will post you something I wrote on respect.

JJ1
Posted By: joejoe1 Re: My Story 3 - 11/13/19 03:51 PM
It's been on my heart to write this. I have read over this multiple times.

I'm a LBS or rather was a LBS. And when I got the BD I was doing all the wrong things. I ran around my city looking for answers. Asking every person I saw that I trusted what should I do.

I searched the internet exhaustively, looking for support and answers and I finally came across this life saving forum.

Were all my answers here, No. But a lot of the support I needed was, because of the life altering events that we were all living thru. I lived to read a post from Vets, helping me wade my way thru my sitch. Their responses brought me comfort and hope. I continued to read as much as I could about marriages in destruction and the same things came up just in different terms. Allow no disrespect, don't beg, plead, or show weakness, don't pursue, be patient and give space. These are the themes and pillars of a LBS. Out all of the pillars, respect carries love into eternity.

Can a person truly pay respect if they don't have any?

Respect cost, does a person with no respect for another truly love another. IMO, NO! Respect is not something that is just handed over freely, it's earned. It's action oriented. If a person is disrespected and the person who does the disrespecting is not confronted then respect is lost.

In order for a person to once again begin to love they must first begin to respect. In order for another person to respect another, that other person must respect themselves first. The longer the disrespect continues, the more the respect currency is lost.

But, in order to gain respect, it only takes one brave act, one act to show that disrespect won't be allowed. That act doesn't care what the reaction of the person doing the disrespecting is going to do. The only thing that matters is that the disrespecting stops. Once the disrespect is stopped, there are only two options, to respect or to distance ones self. But guess what, the distance option is a form of respect as well.

When faced with disrespect the right decision to be made, is first am I being used/disrespected. Why am I saying No or Yes. Am I saying "NO" to be mean or am I saying no because it's not conducive for me at the moment. Am I saying "Yes" because I think it will get my Spouse back or am I saying "Yes" because it's actually the right thing to do?

See, respect has nothing to do with being mean or nice. Has nothing to do with hurting another. It's all about a person, not crossing the clearly stated boundaries you have set. Respect is one person acknowledging that they won't cross your LINE, because they understand you won't TOLERATE them if they do.

Most LBS allow line crossing/disrespect because we don't want our WW/WS to leave us, but the irony/rub is the more/longer they line cross the further away they go. If you want them to ever come back and STAY, STAY is the key word, Respect must be there. The more respect they have the less likely they are going to leave.

So the first steps in winning a Spouse back, is stopping all the actions that show lack of respect and love for oneself (begging, crying, pursuing). Next start loving and respecting yourself. Next GAL, 180s, and detaching (not to escape, but too heal). Lastly allow no other to disrespect you and for all those that do, show them with action what doing so entails.

The purpose of DB or hope for a WW isnít ruining their life, itís leaving them alone and letting them see you grow and become stronger. It's Karma job to teach lessons, it's a LBS job to heal themselves.

JJ1
Posted By: phnix Re: My Story 3 - 11/13/19 05:05 PM
JJ1, thanks for the insightful post. My wife is a master manipulator. I have been beat down and my self esteem has suffered greatly. I know this will be a long road but by setting boundaries and by my actions toward crossing those boundaries will ultimately give myself respect and in turn give me power.

I will continue to set boundaries and become action oriented for those boundaries. Walking away from conversations that cross the line, her sleeping in the other room, and maybe even possibly her moving out. I've got to really look at what I will and will not allow her to do that makes me feel unsafe or disrespected. Thanks again!!
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: My Story 3 - 11/13/19 05:17 PM
Vapo's post may have stung a little but he's spot-on. Great advice from Joe as well, he's "been there done that"!

Originally Posted by bballer1
I am the more attractive option.


Probably quite literally every woman on planet Earth would say you are the more attractive option. Kind, devoted, loving husband vs. lying cheater? Seems obvious. Not to your W though, not right now. She has ZERO respect for you (I mean come on, talking to you about OM????), and you can only get it back by detaching from her. Right now she readily chooses the lying cheater, because she's caught in limerence. And all the turmoil this has caused has only driven them closer together. It's them against the world now, that's how she sees it. I think you mentioned OM's W has filed for D? I think your W envisions a wonderful life with him, riding off into the sunset on a white stallion with fireworks overhead. She's biding her time until that can happen, stringing you along with no intentions of making a future with you.

Quote
Going forward will be tough but I am determined to be strong and show tough love at the same time making sure I put my needs 1st.


Her "needs" should not be on your radar at all.

Quote
I told her I would only do couples counseling if 1. She has No Contact with OM 2. You commit to restoring our marriage. Her reply was OKAY.

"OKAY" means I'm not really interested right now.


You've got to quit being Plan B. She says she wants MC? Your answer is NO. She asks why? No reply. You've got to see ACTION from her that indicates a willingness to try, not hollow words.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: My Story 3 - 11/13/19 05:20 PM
Joe that post on respect is brilliant! Well written. I am bookmarking that for future reference.
Posted By: neffer Re: My Story 3 - 11/13/19 09:53 PM
I agree with all of you guys: great post JJ.

Iīm a survivor from the other side. This forum saved my life too. I needed to DB myself so as to save myself and my family. Didnīt find all the answers but found the road to get them. Itīs a never ending road, the road of life.

Keep walking that road BB. Accepting yourself, being a better man/father/(spouse eventually).

Happiness comes from inside. Get it, share it. Be the lighthouse. Shine!

Keep DB
Posted By: phnix Re: My Story 3 - 11/19/19 05:11 PM
All those that know my story would you recommend I sign up for the 3 coaching sessions? I have also scheduled a Dr's appointment to see if I can get help with my OCD and obsessive thoughts. Not sure if that is a good idea but it may help. I don;t seem to have a ton of anxiety but rather a lot of obsessive thoughts that keep me stuck.
Posted By: phnix Re: My Story 3 - 11/19/19 07:33 PM
Coaching sessions through DB. I don' think I can afford the 6 sessions.
Posted By: neffer Re: My Story 3 - 11/19/19 07:37 PM
Those will help, for sure.

Ease your mind BB. You control yourself.

Be patient.
Posted By: hoosjim Re: My Story 3 - 11/19/19 09:45 PM
Quote
All those that know my story would you recommend I sign up for the 3 coaching sessions?


I found them to be quite helpful. You are right that they are not cheap (though not really any more than some therapists) and not "insurable", but at the end of the day i thought they were worth it. You'd definitely need more than one... a pack of three is a reasonable start and if at the end you think you're on a good track you can always buy more. I tended to stretch mine out a little more than weekly for money reasons, and still felt i was getting valuable feedback and that it was helpful. A couple of things to keep in mind: 1) Make sure you get a coach you "click" with... They have plenty available so don't be afraid to tell them "hey, this one im just not connecting with, can i try someone different." At the end of the day, these folks are much like counselors, so "fit" is important. I ended up switching after my first session and was very glad that i did... connected much better with coach #2. 2) Dont forget that you have a WW... and that changes the calculus a bit for you. These are "Divorce Busting" coaches, and MWD still doesn't explicitly have any specific tips/guidance regarding WW's... although pretty much everything Sandi2 says about WW's and how to deal with them is consistent, in one way or another, with the core tenets of DB-ing... Just don't forget that (the WW) angle, and don't be afraid to ask questions and push back a little of some piece of advice or line of questioning doesn't seem quite right to you. I found the coaching most helpful in the areas of 180-ing and GAL-ing and validating and detaching/pursuit/distance.

Quote
I have also scheduled a Dr's appointment to see if I can get help with my OCD and obsessive thoughts. Not sure if that is a good idea but it may help. I don;t seem to have a ton of anxiety but rather a lot of obsessive thoughts that keep me stuck.


Tough call, here. Mental health is obviously extremely important and if you really believe you have a clinical problem then you should absolutely seek health. OTOH, try to consider the possibility that you are just experiencing some of the normal, PTSD-type reactions/feelings that all LBH's in this sitch tend to experience. My suggestion would be to maybe seek out a MC who also does IC. I was fortunate that my own chosen MC did IC, was familiar with affairs and WWs, was pro-marriage and also goals-oriented... IOW very compatible with the DB philosophy and also very helpful in navigating alot of the feelings and problems I was experiencing (including obsessive thoughts, etc) that, while real and troublesome, did not rise to the level of a clinical "mental illness." You don't want to end up on medications that you don't need and that might ultimately be counterproductive.
Posted By: unchien Re: My Story 3 - 11/21/19 08:10 PM
I did 3 coaching sessions back in May.

They were primarily helpful to frame my situation in a different way. The strategies themselves didn't move the needle in my sitch - there is no magic solution after all - but I was happy that I tried.
Posted By: DonH Re: My Story 3 - 11/21/19 09:50 PM
Let me put a perspective in here - one that the board superiors may or may not want put out there but I'm going to anyhow. I'm a huge fan of MWD, her books, her theories and teachings, and this website. That said, what is going on today is a far cry from years ago when it all started. They can't even get options on the outdated board software changed these days. There used to be a higher level moderator type person that would would comment and assist new people here in signing for the counseling services. She's long gone. However, this all started before Facebook and the like - at least before social media was starting to take off. There used to be hundreds of posts made here everyday. Now there are dozens. It's the same very small group of people with just a few new ones happening to find the place and some great veterans who remain around to try to help people.

My point is, be careful who might even be left to provide these services. Again, in year's past there were multiple, high quality councilors doing this for MWD and this site. I did three and certainly found them more useful than going to a non MWD-trained C. I just don't know if that's still the case. You might want to ask who these C's are now. How long have they done this for MWD, etc. Things are clearly winding down here and seem to be on a skeleton crew. That doesn't mean they can't be helpful - just that what you see, even the pictures and advertising is the same I saw 15 years when I first came here - nothing has been changed. Buyer beware.
Posted By: phnix Re: My Story 3 - 11/22/19 02:53 AM
Don h thanks for the advice.
Now I have come up with a plan going forward. I have been really stuck and it seems worse now that you add the stress of dealing with a basketball season that is beginning.

I discussed with my stitch tonight that it is clear she doesnít know what she wants and she and I both know she has been in communication with the OM. She knows I know and when I caught her I kicked her out the MB. I still have to come home and see her each day along with any behavior that may trigger me feeling unsafe and that she is messaging him in my presence.

I have asked her to move out and that I need separation to help myself heal and due to the fact that she refuses to stop contact with the OM. Our relationship will never improve unless that stops. I am giving her 2 weeks to look for a place to stay.

In the meantime I am taking my son to live with me at my grandmothers house which is vacant. I have agreed to do split custody while Iím living apart but she must find another place to live within 2 weeks. I have got to let her go and being separated will help me. I have realized that we could live in this state of limbo for a very long time. I am not strong enough to live in the same house and keep her or the fear of her messaging him off my mind. I wish I was strong enough to wait this out but Iím afraid I may lose my sanity if I donít remove myself. I will make sure my son is with me at least the first week so I can comfort him and let him know why I have made this decision.

Oh and I told you guys we live in a rural town. My grandmothers house is across the street from the OMís new home that he purchased. Crappy luck I guess. She knows this also and told me that I wouldnít be moving over there. My response was you are wrong, you donít get to tell me what to do anymore.

She loves being in control and when I talk about separation or divorce she gets emotional. She says she donít think she can divorce me. Well I am tired of living in limbo. Some men can do this for years but not this man. If this pushes her into his arms then I never had a chance anyways.

She also had the nerve to ask me if I would take her back after we split up. I told her $&;8& no I wouldnít take you back. I may find some else between now and then.
Posted By: phnix Re: My Story 3 - 11/22/19 03:26 AM
Now keep in my I have been cordial and amicable in all of this but I made it clear that she is not in total control of me anymore. That includes telling me how to live my life, always offering her advice, and belittling me on decision that have to be made. I made it clear that I am working on my own healing and growth. That includes not having her around or on my mind all the time.

Later she came and got into the bed and wanted to hug and cuddle. I made her get out. I donít trust anything she says. I will do split custody the opposite week the OM has his kids too and she will not get to dictate that for me. See how she likes that arrangement.
Posted By: LH19 Re: My Story 3 - 11/22/19 11:18 AM
Bad move moving out dude. What are you going to do when she doesn't move out and has OM over your house?

If you made it this far what would another 2 weeks do to you?
Posted By: phnix Re: My Story 3 - 11/22/19 01:45 PM
I guess you are right. I can go another 2 weeks and persuade her to find a place to live. This is what she wants to do anyways deep down inside. She gets all emotional when we have these talks but It is what she truly wants. She will have to live with the pain of regret as we go through this.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: My Story 3 - 11/22/19 02:10 PM
BB, I'm definitely a proponent of "tough love" when it comes to waywards, and your W is about as wayward as they get. So I think you're doing the right thing refusing her advances. I have a feeling that some day this mess she's making is going to blow up and she's going to come crawling back to you, but it's going to be so far down the road that you will have more than likely moved on and want nothing to do with her. I understand your frustration and desire to just "rip the bandaid off" but I agree with LH, I wouldn't move out of the house just yet. You've got plenty of time, no need to rush things.
Posted By: hoosjim Re: My Story 3 - 11/22/19 04:21 PM
Bballer:

Quote
I have asked her to move out and that I need separation to help myself heal and due to the fact that she refuses to stop contact with the OM. Our relationship will never improve unless that stops. I am giving her 2 weeks to look for a place to stay.

In the meantime I am taking my son to live with me at my grandmothers house which is vacant.


LH19:

Quote
Bad move moving out dude. What are you going to do when she doesn't move out and has OM over your house?


I am confused... are you moving out for good, or did you tell her "I'm done, you're cheating, you need to get out... Im giving you two weeks and in the meantime im taking the kid and getting away from you. When i come back i want you gone"

If the former (you just moved out), Im with LH19 that that's just a bad/weak move. If, on the other hand, it's the latter, while not the ideal stance (which is you stay put, toss her stuff in the yard, and move on with your life), it's not bad, either. Its what I did... discovered her continued contact with OM, told her I was done and wanted her gone and that i was leaving and she needed to be out by the end of the week. IMO that (the ultimatum and temporary leaving) is retaining claim to the house and then separating yourself because she disgusts you (or whatever). You intend to return and make arrangements to do so. Not nearly as weak. Even arguably strong. It ultimately "worked" for me. Problem is if she calls you on it and is still there when you get home... what do you do? If you issue such an ultimatum you have to be prepared to act. (Likely by putting her stuff out in the yard--or at least out of the MBR-- and changing the locks next time she stays out late, or the like, and then going completely dark on her.) But I wouldn't just surrender the house to her.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: My Story 3 - 11/22/19 04:31 PM
I really wish LBSs would consult with the board before making huge decisions. Everyone thinks detachment is easier if they are physically separated from the WAS. It isn't that easy. And on the flip side LBSs that are physically separated feel that there is no way for them to show their WAS that they are making positive changes. It is a double-edged sword.

Asking her to leave is fine. She is under no legal obligation to do so. Staying in the house is almost always the best course of action, unless the obstinate spouse is physically abusive.
Posted By: phnix Re: My Story 3 - 11/22/19 04:59 PM
"hoosjim". Yes that is the case the latter. I was cordial and amicable. I simply said I would give her 2 weeks to find somewhere to live. Then I would move back into the house. We would be separating to get space and see what living apart would be like. Now that you say it like that I probably need to tell her only a week.

I'm sorry guys but I can't continue to live with this lie. Its been 5 months and everyday I see her it makes it just as hard to move on or let go. I think I need separation to heal or I may lose my sanity, harm the OM (seriously), or worse lose my job from lack of focus and being on top of things.

Regardless if we eventually go through divorce then she knows I will be living in the house. She had the nerve to ask, "why do I have to be the one to move out." I said really, we really have to go there. Because I have over 7000 messages, caught him dropping you off, knew you were messaging him 2 weeks ago, and saw you through the window messaging him on Google sheets just last week.

She gets emotional thinking about it but she is lost and not the same woman I first married. She stated last night that she was a bad person and didn't deserve anyone. I guess that was the guilt talking because she knows she is messaging him all day while at school. She got home last night at 8:30 and went straight to working on her computer. She only works 3 hours out the day at school.

She has also mentioned that she was going to make a decision in January. Really? Its almost comical like Lebron James, "The Decision" on ESPN. Are you kidding me? Like I am the poor Ole Cleveland Cavs waiting on her decision. Why? I do not know! It could be she is waiting on him to get his home fixed up and ready to move, it could be that her job would be secure because the deadline to report it to the state will have passed, It could be that she will hopefully get another job in January.
Posted By: LH19 Re: My Story 3 - 11/22/19 05:23 PM
B,

The reason she keeps treating you as a second class citizen is because you allow her to treat you that way. Hold tight and try to get her out of the house.
Posted By: phnix Re: My Story 3 - 11/22/19 11:23 PM
She is willing to leave but has no where to go. Her father said she couldn't come to his house until she quit speaking to or communicating with the OM. She doesn't even speak to him anymore and when she does they just argue and fight.

I have been asking her to move out for nearly a month now and she just doesn't seem to go through with it. I just think taking my son and leaving for a week would put things into perspective for her. I really doubt the OM would come to my house due to him being a scared chicken. I tried calling him several times and he refuses to answer my calls. Besides I don't care anyways. It would only be for a week. Then I will come home and move all of her clothes to the other bedroom.

Her father called today and they are delusional about the situation. They seem to think she can't continue this destructive pattern forever and she will have to make amends with me due to our history, children, and living in a small community. Her dad seems to think she is a good person and always has been and this is why she will eventually come to her senses. I've tried to convince him that she is addicted and is wiling to take a chance on how she feels.

I think I will have to let her go in order to someday get her back. Only problem is if she gets with him and it doesn't work out then I know I wouldn't want her back.
Posted By: LH19 Re: My Story 3 - 11/23/19 04:07 AM
B,

Moving out for a week will do absolutely nothing in your situation.
Posted By: phnix Re: My Story 3 - 11/24/19 11:58 PM
Weekend has gone well. She has refused to move out and she has refused to file. She claims she doesnít want a divorce. I told her if she was going to continue talking to OM then she needed to get out.

I guess I am going to just wait this thing out and hope for the best. I am going to continue to move forward and take care of my sons. Eventually she will see this guy for who he really is and what pain this has caused our family. I will be fine moving forward. Iíve prayed about this and my family is the most important thing in my life. Time will heal all wounds and if she doesnít come around then hopefully she will get the courage to be honest about what she wants.

She clearly stated today that she doesnít want to stop talking to him. This has got to be a bad place for her as our boys both know. I am going to continue to detach, gal, and work on myself. I have a lot of Demons from my childhood.
Posted By: LH19 Re: My Story 3 - 11/25/19 12:10 AM
B,

Look man I know you are in a really tough situation but you really have to stop making statements that you canít and donít follow through on because it makes you look weak.

I also think with your boys knowing you are teaching them that itís ok to be a doormat.

To get her back she has to respect you. How do you get your respect back?
Posted By: phnix Re: My Story 3 - 11/25/19 12:53 AM
ďLHĒ, Not sure how to do that other than I need to respect myself and hold true to the boundaries Iíve set. I have her out of the MB. Iíve clearly stated that if she was going to talk to OM she needs to move out to respect me and our son.
Posted By: DS9 Re: My Story 3 - 11/25/19 01:09 AM
Hey BB,

Sorry you're going through all this mate. I'm not up to speed with your entire sitch, but could it be time to take legal action to get her out of the house? Is the house in joint names? Who is ultimately wanting the house in the divorce split? If your W doesnt want the house, then can you initiate the asset split and get her out that way. If you dont do something soon, status quo will set in and it'll become harder

I really feel for you being in the same house mate - it gets so toxic, doesnt it. I left my place after 2 months as I couldnt handle it, but, I didnt want the house in the split, told XW that, then left. She stayed in it, and is there still.

About gaining respect, read Robx from about 10 years ago. He gives a roadmap.

Good luck
Posted By: LH19 Re: My Story 3 - 11/25/19 01:14 AM
B,

Thatís my point though you keep stating it she keeps breaking it and the you keep telling her she needs to leave and she doesnít. That makes the boundary useless.
Posted By: phnix Re: My Story 3 - 11/25/19 01:31 AM
Our house is in both of our names. She claims she will do everything 50/50. I told her I would live in the house until we sold it. She doesnít want divorce. She wants to live in Limbo until she figures out what she wants to do. She mentioned giving me an answer in January but Iím sure that would turn into June before itís all said and done.

My family feels like I should pray about it and just love her. My lawyer thinks I should just let her stay in the house and get out 50/50 while I am ahead. He thinks this is the best deal.
Posted By: DS9 Re: My Story 3 - 11/25/19 01:48 AM
Ok, so it sounds like neither wants it, but wish to sell and split the proceeds? Am I right?

So is the house for sale? If not, speak to your L about getting it done. Give W a panel of 3 agents and she chooses 1, within 7 days. If she doesnt choose, you choose. If she doesn't sign the agent appointment, take legal action to force the sale.

Is the mortgage in joint names?

What does 'get out 50/50 while I am ahead' mean?

You can keep praying and loving her, but the limbo will eat away at you like cancer and you will be a shell of a man.

If the house is being sold, then look at your options for moving out in the meantime, with W paying the mortgage till its sold.

Not sure how it works in the USA, but surely you can come up with some sort of binding agreement/order that spells all this out and gives the roadmap of who does what/lives where pending the sale. Work on it with your lawyer and hand it to her once done. Once all is binding, then take steps to either move out, she moves out or whatever.

If she refuses to sign agreement/move forward etc, then speak to your L about initiating legal proceedings. Please note I'm in Oz so you'll need to bear in mind we may do things differently here.

Just get it listed for sale.

Chin up mate. Cheers, DS
Posted By: phnix Re: My Story 3 - 11/25/19 02:17 AM
The point is she doesnít want a divorce. She says she canít imagine divorcing me. However, she also says she canít imagine ever not speaking to the OM again. She doesnít want to sell the house right now.

What will eventually have to happen is I will have to file and she will have to come to the table to come up with our agreements. She is so wayward that I canít hardly talk to her without being mean or getting into a shouting match. This is what it has come too.
Posted By: DS9 Re: My Story 3 - 11/25/19 02:27 AM
Oh man, how do you feel about this BB? Are you prepared to keep getting hammered by her, under the guise that she doenst want to divorce you, therefore presumably giving false hope to you? Remmeber the advice here - believe nothing that they say!

How much more can you tolerate before you eventually file for divorce? Don't you want to sell the house?

Did you read Robx's thread? You have to read it, ok.
Posted By: phnix Re: My Story 3 - 11/25/19 04:30 AM
I think it may be my competitive nature. I know she will not leave me or divorce me so Iím deciding to wait this out. Iíve contacted a lawyer and paid the retainer. She knows I do not agree with this relationship. She knows that our family is most important.

She will have to take another job and we have discussed moving away and starting a new life in a different town. I guess it could always be worse. If she was mean and hateful then I would already have filed. She has no future with this guy and she is only holding onto pure fantasy. Heck she wonít even go out in public right now because she is ashamed and embarrassed. She has been isolated by all of her family and has nobody to turn to for support.

In time I believe she will get through this and realize what it has potentially cost her. I have been praying and I know that God has a plan for me in all of this. As long as she is honest with me then we can move forward. That honesty may lead us to divorce or it may lead us to a better relationship. All I know for certain is that we are a long way from starting over. This is what it will take. Starting over and learning to love each other again.

Eventually she will have to come to terms with her actions and take responsibility for her choices.
I can not find robxs post. Site only allows me to search past 3 months.
Posted By: LovingIt Re: My Story 3 - 11/25/19 06:06 AM

Here's robx user posts: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=userposts&id=23276

I used a Google search instead with 'robx divorcebusting' as search parameters.

I'm in a similar situation with limbo, so curious to read it myself.
Posted By: LH19 Re: My Story 3 - 11/25/19 06:49 AM
B,

I am sorry but she is not the only one living in pure fantasy.
Posted By: Vapo Re: My Story 3 - 11/25/19 12:55 PM
DS9, you are totally off course with your remarks. One cannot force one's spouse out of the marital home. What in the world gave you that idea?!? Stating that boundary and then (obviously) not being able to enforce it, makes you look weak. Baller, your talk of respect is also weak. You cannot command her what she does or what she does not do. You cn only control yourself. Take that into consideration, when you are planning your actions.
Posted By: job Re: My Story 3 - 11/25/19 01:46 PM
New Thread:

Living in Limbo
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