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Posted By: curtis7 Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/20/19 04:57 PM
Link to Part 1:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2841771
Link to Part 2:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2842502
Link to Part 3:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2845184
Link to Part 4:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2850893
Link to Part 5:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2857721
Link to Part 6:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2863026

Summary to date:
W was unhappy in 2018 and probably a few years earlier about her lack of career advancement, responsibilities of being a mother and wife, and lack of connection in our MR. She became involved in an EA with OM1 (a co-worker) in August 2018. She went to an IC without my knowledge and determined that I was the cause of her unhappiness. BD and IHS in November 2018. I begged, pleaded, and became super husband. She became obsessed with her physical appearance and recapturing her youth. EA with OM1 became a PA. She met OM2 (25 year old pickup artist) in mid-November 2018 has been having a PA with him going on a year. W went deeply underground with her smartphone when I found out and confronted. W met OM3 in March 2019 on an online dating app and is still in an ongoing PA with him as well. W has distanced herself from anyone of strong moral character and primarily interacts with a recently divorced woman that became her BFF last year. W bought her own house and moved out in early April 2019. We have arranged 50/50 custody of our kids, S8 and D5, rotating every few days.

We attended Retrouvaille at the end of September. W genuinely opened up and seemed to put forth effort. That was short-lived and she is back to her WW behavior with the OM. Over the past 2 weeks I've felt about the same each day in that I am ready to move forward with my life. She's had long enough to end her A's. She continues to choose them over me. I want to be with someone that wants to be with me.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/20/19 05:10 PM
Originally Posted by Caligirl
This isnít working for me anymore . I respect myself enough to let you go and move forward with my life . ( I wouldnít give her anything else she knows why and how you feel )

Please have the horse relocated by this date ____. If the horse is not relocated by this date ____I will relocate it to here ____ and have the bill sent to your address . Thanks ( stick to this if she doesnít take the horse move it )

Even her AP brought up the horse . She knows you'll always be there and sheís using that . Let AP apply the pressure . He sounds like a real gem . Controlling , foul mouthed and issues with his mom . Let it have its own death . Tell her to move the horse no discussion about it . If sheís answers in anger . You no longer reside here please have the horse out by this date .

Keep being dim . Short and to the point . Kids only . When you do exchanges hello and goodbye .Smile and move along .

As far as asking for a D or starting it from your post it still seems as if you put the ball in her court . I wouldnít mention a D. Detach . Have the horse removed . GAL and stay very dim .

Just my opinion from a newbie

Caligirl, not bad for a newbie. smile

The horse situation is problematic. I'm concerned about the financial implications of relocating it and am trying to avoid legal issues in the future if I try to move it. It does feel like the only reason we are still married is because she has a great setup with her horse.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/20/19 05:14 PM
Originally Posted by LH19

First off sorry you had to read a text exchange with your W and the biggest dueche bag that ever walked the face of the earth.
LH, apparently those types of exchanges are attractive to my WW.

Originally Posted by LH19
I am going to make one final plea with you to try DB. No letters, no scripts, no asset list and start simple. Make it clear with her by ACTIONS that you're done with the BS. Ask her to remove the horse from your house and absolutely no contact that doesn't involve the kids. BTW once a day is too much in my book. You also have to stop snooping.

The problem you are having right now is you are trying to force everything. You tried forcing her to stop her affairs, forced her to go to Retrouvaille and now you want to force her to make a choice. It's nor surprising at all that you failed at all these attempts. She's not ready to comeback. She's even told you that but you don't listen very well.

If you're done I totally get it. No pleas, letters, grand jestures, deals, ultimatiums. Just do it.

I can promise you if you ask her to come home and work on the M you will get kicked in the b@lls so hard you'll never get up.
How long do you suggest I DB? I'm coming up on a year from BD, many LBS quit around that time.

I'm good with no contact that doesn't involve the kids. I don't want any other contact with her right now.

WW said she wants to "feel separated". That's what I'm trying to give her, removing myself from the equation.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/20/19 05:28 PM
Originally Posted by job
I am going to offer you some advice and it is up to you as to whether you want to listen or not. This latest stuff is way too fresh in your mind. Give yourself a few days and allow that pain/hurt to wash over you and then release it. If, after a couple of days, you still feel the way that you do, then you will need to make some tough decisions. Sit down, make a list of pros and cons and then go from there.

job, thanks for the advice, I will follow it. It's been a week, so not too fresh in my mind. I've been strongly feeling it's time to move forward on my own each day for the past 2 weeks. I will give it a little more time. Let me give the pros and cons some thought.

Originally Posted by job

Try to remember that actions speak louder than words. I've taken the liberty to change the emails you plan to send. If you do send one...do just one and leave it at that and then give her the time and space to respond back.

"I have come to the realization that you do not want to work on the marriage. This situation isnít working for me anymore. I respect myself enough to let you go and move forward with my life."

I would keep the asset list on hand, but not give it to her unless she's ready to move forward with a divorce. Keep your cards close to the vest for now. You want to keep things simple, but straight forward at this time.
I didn't think the words would hold much weight. That is why I planned to deliver the asset list as an action along with the words. When I do that, it is not to draw her back or get her to change her mind. It is because I am done and ready to move forward. I am okay with either outcome as long as the status quo ends.

Originally Posted by job
Enjoy the party this evening.
Thanks! The party was fun. The kids and I both had a blast. Only thought about W a few times. It was when I was sitting around with other couples. Just some moments of sadness watching other couples together and knowing I don't have that gift right now. I had the same feeling Friday night when I took the kids out to dinner after S8's baseball game. Went with 3 other "intact" families. It's a bit disheartening being alone, seeing the dynamic of other couples, and wondering when I will have that again. That's the choice I made by being "deliberately not divorced."
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/20/19 05:37 PM
Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
What is the purpose of texting her every day? Why not get rid of the horse?

How is a divorce going to stop her from crapping all over you?

You might feel better if you quit worrying about her affairs and stopped snooping.
The text is to ask that the kids call to say goodnight or perhaps a text about kids sports schedule.

D will get rid of the horse.

You're right that I probably would feel better if I didn't gather intel. MWD says to do what works. One way to assess that is to find out if anything has changed with the WW behavior. I don't have a reason to anymore after the latest discovery that she went back to the OM again after Retrouvaille. It solidified that what she shared on the RV weekend were more lies. She is incapable of being honest, her selfishness is all that matters.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/20/19 05:44 PM
Originally Posted by MMM12
Wow! That is absolutely terrible the way he talked to her. I read the others advice and it seems right on point. As a woman I can tell you, if I were your WW I would be very confused right now and would panic at losing my safety net. If you just let her walk all over you and she knows you'll be there waiting, she will string you along. Don't let that happen.
So, as a woman, why would she want to go back to him? Are the in-love feelings that strong?

I've been very dim with her over the past week or so. Maybe she needs to panic. She's had it good this whole time. Throwing me crumbs here and there to string me along. Telling and showing her that I'm done would add to her confusion. I need to decide if that is what I really want and when enough is enough.
Posted By: job Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/20/19 06:00 PM
Dbing is for you. It is to help you find a way to carry on and live your life to the fullest. DBing is a technique that you can use in your day-to-day life. I would continue as you have been...leave her alone as much as possible, communicate w/her if it is an emergency or about the children...other than that...she's gone to the moon and isn't available for much contact, if any.

Keep the focus on you and your family. Watch the finances, etc., and find plenty of things to do, things that you enjoy doing will help greatly.

Above all else, dig deeper for patience and remember...you didn't break her, therefore, you can't fix her.
Posted By: MMM12 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/21/19 01:20 AM
Originally Posted by curtis7
So, as a woman, why would she want to go back to him? Are the in-love feelings that strong?

I've been very dim with her over the past week or so. Maybe she needs to panic. She's had it good this whole time. Throwing me crumbs here and there to string me along. Telling and showing her that I'm done would add to her confusion. I need to decide if that is what I really want and when enough is enough.


Again, I am no DB expert, just speaking from a woman's perspective here. I am struggling to understand why she would go back to him. I have a couple of thoughts, one being she has self-esteem difficulties and is clinging to him and two she is afraid to lose him for whatever reason and again is clinging to him. Another thought, and this sounds bad, he may still seem better than your marriage to her. She knows what her married life looks like. That's where I would DB and make your life full and different. He honestly sounds awful and I can't imagine this is going to be long lasting at all.

I had a 6 year relationship to my oldest son's father. I left him for a slew of reasons and I knew I could find someone else that made me happier. After I left, he became happy. He got a fresh look, started doing more things with his friends, was always nice and cordial to me. Guess what? I wanted him back. We ended up back together, bought a house... He reverted back to his old ways and we ended up splitting for good. When we did split for good, he begged and pleaded for over a year, said he would do anything to get back together. Sometimes I would send me a text or agree to dinner or something but I was already dating other people. I would save him for a night I was bored or needed some attention.

The moral of the story is I didn't want someone else to get this "catch" of a man originally. If I knew I could have him back at any given moment he would have seemed less valuable to me and he did the second time around. He was my first and I truly wanted to spend the rest of my life with him until I realized I didn't love my life with him and thought I would be happier with someone else. I'm here so obviously that hasn't happened yet. 😁 Although we never married and we were only together for 6 years, I am sure there are similarities to married life.
Posted By: LovingIt Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/21/19 01:49 AM


Originally Posted by MMM12

The moral of the story is I didn't want someone else to get this "catch" of a man originally. If I knew I could have him back at any given moment he would have seemed less valuable to me and he did the second time around. He was my first and I truly wanted to spend the rest of my life with him until I realized I didn't love my life with him and thought I would be happier with someone else. I'm here so obviously that hasn't happened yet. 😁 Although we never married and we were only together for 6 years, I am sure there are similarities to married life.


MMM,

Thanks for your input. I always appreciate hearing both sides of the story. I have some clarifying questions, please don't take it as me disagreeing with you.

Were you Walk Away, or Wayward? (Did you have an OM / someone else waiting on the wing?) How did your LBH revert after you got back to him? I'm curious because I'm wondering if he reverted his behavior, or just that once you got him back, you lost interest again, and that after a 2nd time around, the distance/pursue does not work anymore.

Just curious because I'm always wondering how likely a relapse is going to happen after DB and R.

Thanks!
Posted By: MMM12 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/21/19 02:31 AM
I stink at quoting, so bear with me. The first time I was a walkaway. But in my head I imagined this amazing life I was going to have with someone else. I did end up meeting someone, he was divorced. We began to spend a lot of time together. We would go on day trips, spend evenings having drinks and talking about life. Just fun conversation. It never became anything physical. Looking back, if I had more sexual experience (I had only ever been with ex at that point) it may have gotten physical. But I looked at this guy, and starting thinking of ex and our family, his new happy life WITHOUT ME and decided I wanted to be a part of that. He had a little bit of hesitation but not much.

My ex was definitely a MNG. He would say whatever to appease me but then do the opposite because that is what he really wanted to do. Which infuriated me more then if he would have just stuck up for himself, now he lied to me. He wasn't the man and I the woman, if that makes sense. I am also super insecure, I am working on this. I need a lot of words of affirmation and quality time and he didn't give me that. So it wasn't loss of interest, it was that we went right back to old ways and that didn't work. I also didn't change myself at all. Someone should have told me to be less bossy and let him feel like a man. 😁

When all this happened I had no guidance. I should have changed myself too and we both should have put in more effort to make the next go-around different. I expected that because I left HIM, I should go back and he be the perfect man for me. That's why DB makes so much sense to me now.

I almost forgot something. So, the second and final split I was definitely a WW. I had met someone else at a party we were at together. He gave me feelings I didn't have with ex. So when I broke things off I had him in my mind.
Posted By: MMM12 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/21/19 02:42 AM
I almost forgot this part, this has been years ago so it isn't fresh. I started going to college and became friends with a man I met there. He would always flirt with me and I really liked it. He gave me the excitement and confidence that was very much missing in my R. He constantly made me laugh. When I left ex the first time these are the feelings that lead me there, that someone else could make me happy like he couldn't. So maybe I was always a WW.

Also, DS1's father is a really, really good guy. I didn't realize it then and only saw that he wasn't giving me what I wanted and needed out of a R. He ended up getting married to someone who, much like me but worse, walked all over him. She cheated several times, left him, came back. They finally divorced and he is now happily remarried to a wonderful woman. His NGS followed him. I don't know if it still is an issue but he found a keeper.

Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/21/19 02:54 AM
Originally Posted by MMM12
Again, I am no DB expert, just speaking from a woman's perspective here. I am struggling to understand why she would go back to him. I have a couple of thoughts, one being she has self-esteem difficulties and is clinging to him and two she is afraid to lose him for whatever reason and again is clinging to him. Another thought, and this sounds bad, he may still seem better than your marriage to her. She knows what her married life looks like. That's where I would DB and make your life full and different. He honestly sounds awful and I can't imagine this is going to be long lasting at all.
MMM, I appreciate your POV. In the initial posts on my sitch I mentioned that my W had become obsessed with reading romance novels a couple years before leading up to BD. Also, about 2 weeks before BD she actually verbalized that to me for the first time in that she wanted a different sexual experience. Think 50 Shades stuff.

Could it be that the APs are playing that role and she is so into it that sheíll take any form of abuse to keep it alive and get her next fix?
Posted By: LovingIt Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/21/19 03:01 AM
Originally Posted by MMM12

...
My ex was definitely a MNG. He would say whatever to appease me but then do the opposite because that is what he really wanted to do. Which infuriated me more then if he would have just stuck up for himself, now he lied to me. He wasn't the man and I the woman, if that makes sense. I am also super insecure, I am working on this. I need a lot of words of affirmation and quality time and he didn't give me that. So it wasn't loss of interest, it was that we went right back to old ways and that didn't work. I also didn't change myself at all. Someone should have told me to be less bossy and let him feel like a man. 😁

When all this happened I had no guidance. I should have changed myself too and we both should have put in more effort to make the next go-around different. I expected that because I left HIM, I should go back and he be the perfect man for me. That's why DB makes so much sense to me now.
...


Thanks for the reply, and your explanation makes sense. Sounds like you needed there to be more of the masculine vs feminine roles / dynamics for attraction, and neither of you recognized or worked on it to make that happen.

I appreciate that you are honest enough in hindsight to acknowledge that you didn't put in the necessary effort to make the necessary changes either.

I'm starting to realize that with all the equal opportunity, etc... that a lot of women still desire a strong man to be the masculine figure in the relationship.
Posted By: MMM12 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/21/19 03:02 AM
Originally Posted by curtis7
MMM, I appreciate your POV. In the initial posts on my sitch I mentioned that my W had become obsessed with reading romance novels a couple years before leading up to BD. Also, about 2 weeks before BD she actually verbalized that to me for the first time in that she wanted a different sexual experience. Think 50 Shades stuff.

Could it be that the APs are playing that role and she is so into it that sheíll take any form of abuse to keep it alive and get her next fix?


Yes! That could very well be it. I read where Sandi talked about romance novels being in her sitch too and it totally resignated with me. I want THAT life. I think I still do and what I am always searching for. Maybe that is part of my problem and need to stop reading and watching romance. 😂 That's amazing though that she could verbalize what she wanted sexually. That's tough to do.

I'll read your whole sitch. I never feel qualified to add anything so normally I lurk.
Posted By: LovingIt Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/21/19 03:06 AM
Originally Posted by MMM12
Originally Posted by curtis7
MMM, I appreciate your POV. In the initial posts on my sitch I mentioned that my W had become obsessed with reading romance novels a couple years before leading up to BD. Also, about 2 weeks before BD she actually verbalized that to me for the first time in that she wanted a different sexual experience. Think 50 Shades stuff.

Could it be that the APs are playing that role and she is so into it that sheíll take any form of abuse to keep it alive and get her next fix?


Yes! That could very well be it. I read where Sandi talked about romance novels being in her sitch too and it totally resignated with me. I want THAT life. I think I still do and what I am always searching for. Maybe that is part of my problem and need to stop reading and watching romance. 😂 That's amazing though that she could verbalize what she wanted sexually. That's tough to do.

I'll read your whole sitch. I never feel qualified to add anything so normally I lurk.


OMG... my WW reads those novels... I'm F'ed...

That's like watching porn, and expecting real life sex to be like that... :P
Posted By: MMM12 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/21/19 03:10 AM
Originally Posted by LovingIt


I'm starting to realize that with all the equal opportunity, etc... that a lot of women still desire a strong man to be the masculine figure in the relationship.


Yes! I want a tough guy who won't put up with my $#&t, understands my crazy, but also soft and romantic on the inside. Just like in the novels I read. Lol.
Posted By: MMM12 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/21/19 03:15 AM
Originally Posted by LovingIt

OMG... my WW reads those novels... I'm F'ed...

That's like watching porn, and expecting real life sex to be like that... :P


I have never thought of it like that but you are soooo right! I have 1000 novels I need to unsave. :-D
Posted By: LovingIt Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/21/19 03:17 AM
Originally Posted by MMM12

Yes! I want a tough guy who won't put up with my $#&t, understands my crazy, but also soft and romantic on the inside. Just like in the novels I read. Lol.


Just like on the flip side... I want a hot woman who's athletic, parties, freaky in bed, but also a educated, smart, caring, and good wife / mom...

Let me know when you find your unicorn, and I'll do the same :P

Sorry to hi-jack your thread Curtis!
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/21/19 11:29 AM
Originally Posted by MMM12
That's amazing though that she could verbalize what she wanted sexually. That's tough to do.
I wouldnít say that she verbalized what she wanted, all she said was ďI want to be controlled.Ē

This reminds me of a text I saw on her old phone from last December when she was changing devices. It was to her divorced BFF right when she was splitting with her XH around August 2018. The text from my WW read ďItís ALL about the SEX.Ē I brushed it off as girl talk at the time and my W jumping on with bashing of BFFís XH.Who knows, maybe thatís what my W values most in life.

If so, itís sad that she had to go out and find that with someone else rather than attempting to explore and try something different with me. Itís not surprising though as she justified the early affairs by convincing herself in her mind, with the help of IC and BFF, that I was the root cause of all of her unhappiness.

Now itís very sad that I think she realizes that I wasnít the only cause, that it was also her and she is unwillingly to walk away from what sheís found. She knows what type of life we can have together, I think she knows what it would mean to our kids, but yet she wonít recommit to find out if all her needs can be met.

W has always been a very stubborn woman. It seems she would rather be D than admit she made a mistake. I do think she is terrified of coming back because she doesnít want to tell the ENTIRE TRUTH. What she doesnít know is that I ALREADY KNOW. She fears that I will never forgive her or always hold it against her. Iím not sure how to counteract this, so I continue to wait. One day she may come to me ready to talk. I will listen without judging. However, I still think it will be trickle truth if that day ever comes as she is so ashamed of so many of her bad choices. If that happens, then weíll still be stuck as Iíll know she wasnít completely honest and so will she.
Posted By: neffer Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/21/19 11:58 AM
Hey C, you are wrapping yourself in your own web. Affair fog and all that environment is a really powerful drug. You are doing too much mind reading and flowing into inconsistent assumptions. Get out of that path.

Please, keep DB Curtis.

Trust yourself. Value yourself.

Set boundaries, detach and GAL.

Willingness
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/21/19 12:26 PM
Originally Posted by neffer
Hey C, you are wrapping yourself in your own web. Affair fog and all that environment is a really powerful drug. You are doing too much mind reading and flowing into inconsistent assumptions. Get out of that path.
Nef, thanks. The longer W stays in affair fog, the less her actions bother me. It has become commonplace. Sheís living her life and Iím living mine.

I do however get an inkling to force action occasionally. For instance, last night when D5 was going to Wís car for the kid exchange, she said ďI hate going back and forth between two houses.Ē W just blew it off in her selfish way. I donít want to keep my kids exposed to this much longer and have them think this is an acceptable form of MR.
Posted By: IHCLACS Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/21/19 12:57 PM
Originally Posted by LovingIt
Originally Posted by MMM12

Yes! I want a tough guy who won't put up with my $#&t, understands my crazy, but also soft and romantic on the inside. Just like in the novels I read. Lol.


Just like on the flip side... I want a hot woman who's athletic, parties, freaky in bed, but also a educated, smart, caring, and good wife / mom...

Let me know when you find your unicorn, and I'll do the same :P

Sorry to hi-jack your thread Curtis!


Dude this is the essence of why we are all here. Everyone thinks they deserve better, thinks they can do better, wants to be treated better, either freaky, controlled, or understood. Thanks for pointing out it works both ways. I don't think most people realize that. What men want, women don't consider, and what women want, men don't consider. But the fantasy Rom Com, story novel, Under the Tuscan Sun, Eat Love Pray, Gilmore girls, I married a porn star, lady in the street freak in the bed, grass is greener deluded reality bull$hit needs to stop. Too easily influenced into searching for something/someone that may or may not exist, and creates a false narritive. Its short term at best with long term consequences. To do what you feel is immature, to do what is right take a humility and courage. Real people have flaws. We are all imperfectly perfect. MM12 and Loving It. Great examples of the differences of what Men and Women want
Posted By: neffer Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/21/19 12:59 PM
Do what works for you C. Detach, get rid of all expectations.

Be the healthy parent. Shine there.

DB!

(((C)))
Posted By: IHCLACS Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/21/19 01:30 PM
Curtis I just had another thought. Your're WW spirit is like a wild horse that wants to be tamed and controlled, but in her own demented sense. Some people I guess get tired of playing the good girl/good boy, and go down the long dark road of lust, pain and self destruction. Maybe you should tie her to the stable, pull her hair, and break out the riding crop?

The matter is two fold. They all want to be CONTROLLED by a man who is masculine but not CONTROLLING. A man that has control of himself, his emotions, and his reality. Its their submissive nature, but...They will always be trying to seek control over you in a relationship, they want to comadeeer the relationship. You have to do that. You have to assume all the responsibilities, planning, upkeep of the R. They will try over long periods of years to take control. Being disappointed (and believe me they never forget.) Its something i've realized is the $hit testing" never stops. You re going to hear things like "Man up" "You don't do XYZ for me" ect." When you hear this, its going to have some validity depended on if and where you failed. If it doesn't, then its a narrative coming from her, that she learned from other peers and influences along the way. If you are CONTROLLING. You are going to hear. "He's manipulative" "He never lets me do what I want..." "He doesn't support me" yadaya.

Take what you are going through to learn to set boundaries for yourself first. Always be willing to walk away if they get crossed more than twice without resolve, effort or communication, and always put yourself, your emotional health and self esteem, and self worth first AT ALL TIMES! This is going to be key to eradicating NMMG IMHO.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/21/19 02:02 PM
Originally Posted by IHCLACS
Curtis I just had another thought. Your're WW spirit is like a wild horse that wants to be tamed and controlled, but in her own demented sense. Some people I guess get tired of playing the good girl/good boy, and go down the long dark road of lust, pain and self destruction. Maybe you should tie her to the stable, pull her hair, and break out the riding crop?
Haha, interesting. Iíve skimmed some of the scenes in her romance novels and had similar thoughts related to the stable. That reminds me that I texted her some time ago when I was learning about Mr. Grey asking if she had a riding crop. Her response was something along the lines of ďWhoa. Donít go there. Please.Ē

Originally Posted by IHCLACS
The matter is two fold. They all want to be CONTROLLED by a man who is masculine but not CONTROLLING.
I think this describes her to a tee right now.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/22/19 02:06 AM
I could use some advice from the vets. I came home from work today and there was a letter in the mail addressed to WW. It was from her D attorney. She must not have given them the address for her affair house. It was a thin envelope containing what seemed to be a single page, most likely an invoice. Perhaps it was past due from her initial meeting at the end of August.

How should I handle this? Just hand her the letter? Anything to say when I give it to her? Maybe leave it by her horse's stall door in the stable?
Posted By: Jac12 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/22/19 02:53 AM
Just hand her the letter. No need to make a show of it.

"This came for you" (And hand it to her).

As if it was a letter from her dentist. Who cares what it is anyways right?
Posted By: CWarrior Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/22/19 05:50 AM
Originally Posted by curtis7
How should I handle this? Just hand her the letter? Anything to say when I give it to her? Maybe leave it by her horse's stall door in the stable?

Transfer the mail to her however you transfer other mail to her. And stop housing her horse. wink It's amazing that even the OM knows this is a key reason why your wife hasn't fully moved on.

Posted By: MrBrside Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/22/19 08:37 AM
From the reply to Bluwaves thread....

Originally Posted by curtis7
Blu, thanks for responding. Interesting, I misinterpreted or more likely missed some later posts. I was under the impression the letter triggered his rapid turnaround. I can see how several items can accumulate at once for the WAS and make them feel that loss. It seems thatís what happened for your H.


Curtis, as per the past comments, this ( and previous comment to Blu ) is you looking for that magic bullet to make your wife come running back. You didn't update your situation for over a week ( and ignored a lot of advice, comments and questions etc ) then bobbed back up to reply to Blus comment about a letter that you interperated as making a partner "turn around".. Like i have stated on previous posts and when you first started referencing this "letter" and analysing previous "success stories" months ago, you are cherry picking the situations which you feel show show a positive impact on the WAW and looking for "that" success story as you want to believe "it could be you" as well.. These are so few and far between: You would be more succesful chasing rainbows, hoping to find a pot of gold at the end..... But you dont seem to grasp this.


Originally Posted by curtis7
The contents of my letter are similar. Mine was not intended to be a threat. I mean it that Iím finished with the crap and BS. Iím not tolerating it any longer. Not sure if youíve kept up with my sitch, but I take it you wouldnít recommend I deliver such a letter as my WW has not really shown any chinks in her armor or movement away from the OM except during Retrouvaille weekend.


You have been making this statement since May.. We are now in October and nothing has changed.

The horse is still there, you tried RV to no avail, wife is still with the OM and you are still not even close to detaching. You have wasted months of your life where you could have been working on "you".. Even your kids are still in limbo as you insist in "existing" in this lifestyle you have allowed to WAW to impose on you.. I say allowed, as although you had no choice on the breakup, you could have set boundaries, started to rebuild your life, lost the horse,made a firm schedule for the children, taking her out of the equation except for handover of the children etc. Instead, she comes and goes and uses you.. But the only person to blame is yourself, because you allow it to happen:

And you are still banging on about letters and words..

Its been said more times than i can count, that actions make the difference, not letters.. Yet you still choose to ignore all the advice off all the experienced vets..

I can see this thread hitting part 10 and the content not changing much from the past 6.
Posted By: DaB35 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/22/19 08:51 AM
I think the key here is giving your W a glimpse of life without you in it. That's why detaching is so important.

Yes you will feel guilty for doing it - it feels like you're saying "Fine. If that's the way you want it, then I don't care..." But then after a week or so you'll be doing your own stuff and setting your own goals.

One post on the quotes page is "You're never more attractive than when you're walking away." (ish - can't remember it exactly). You must let her realise what losing you means. But the most important thing here is...*you're ok with what happens either way*. That is very hard, but that's why the board is here for support.

Keep posting and asking for advice!
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/22/19 11:28 AM
Originally Posted by MrBrside
Curtis, as per the past comments, this ( and previous comment to Blu ) is you looking for that magic bullet to make your wife come running back. You didn't update your situation for over a week ( and ignored a lot of advice, comments and questions etc ) then bobbed back up to reply to Blus comment about a letter that you interperated as making a partner "turn around".. Like i have stated on previous posts and when you first started referencing this "letter" and analysing previous "success stories" months ago, you are cherry picking the situations which you feel show show a positive impact on the WAW and looking for "that" success story as you want to believe "it could be you" as well.. These are so few and far between: You would be more succesful chasing rainbows, hoping to find a pot of gold at the end..... But you dont seem to grasp this.
MrB, I came here to try and save my MR. I think thatís why most LBS come here. Somewhere along the line it usually turns into saving ourselves as the MR is gone. One way I find it helpful to discover what works is to read other peopleís sitches that have been through this before. Yes, itís true, there are VERY few success stories. All I can do is give it the best I can for as long as I can. Iím not saying that Iím going to copy the success stories and attempt to recreate those scenarios in the exact same manner; however, I am going to learn and apply what I feel is appropriate for my sitch.

I didnít update my sitch for over a week because there wasnít much to share. Iíve gone quite dim with my WW. Iím staying busy with some activities almost everyday, S8ís baseball, D5ís soccer, my basketball and volleyball, church, etc. Iím following the advice of giving her time and space.

Originally Posted by MrBrside

Originally Posted by curtis7
The contents of my letter are similar. Mine was not intended to be a threat. I mean it that Iím finished with the crap and BS. Iím not tolerating it any longer. Not sure if youíve kept up with my sitch, but I take it you wouldnít recommend I deliver such a letter as my WW has not really shown any chinks in her armor or movement away from the OM except during Retrouvaille weekend.


You have been making this statement since May.. We are now in October and nothing has changed.

The horse is still there, you tried RV to no avail, wife is still with the OM and you are still not even close to detaching. You have wasted months of your life where you could have been working on "you".. Even your kids are still in limbo as you insist in "existing" in this lifestyle you have allowed to WAW to impose on you.. I say allowed, as although you had no choice on the breakup, you could have set boundaries, started to rebuild your life, lost the horse, made a firm schedule for the children, taking her out of the equation except for handover of the children etc. Instead, she comes and goes and uses you.. But the only person to blame is yourself, because you allow it to happen:

And you are still banging on about letters and words..

Its been said more times than i can count, that actions make the difference, not letters.. Yet you still choose to ignore all the advice off all the experienced vets..

I can see this thread hitting part 10 and the content not changing much from the past 6.
I canít argue with you here. Yes, Iíve started to go back and read my posts since March. Iíve said many times that Iím letting her go, Iím done, etc, then I back slide. Over the past 2 weeks, aside from the horse, I am out of the equation. As Iíve stated I'm concerned about the legal ramifications of relocating the horse. I have been following a plan that I laid out a couple threads ago. Yes, my timeline has prolonged much longer than I anticipated. However, most of us know there is no quick fix.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/22/19 11:37 AM
Originally Posted by DaB35
I think the key here is giving your W a glimpse of life without you in it. That's why detaching is so important.

Yes you will feel guilty for doing it - it feels like you're saying "Fine. If that's the way you want it, then I don't care..." But then after a week or so you'll be doing your own stuff and setting your own goals.

One post on the quotes page is "You're never more attractive than when you're walking away." (ish - can't remember it exactly). You must let her realise what losing you means. But the most important thing here is...*you're ok with what happens either way*. That is very hard, but that's why the board is here for support.
DaB, thatís my goal right now. Sheís losing access to me. Kids only. Sheís betrayed me too many times to deserve anything more. Forgiveness is possible and trust can be restored, but she will need to do some very heavy lifting to make that happen. I will DB with time, space, and staying dim for a period of time. Then, weíll see who takes action first. I am ok with whatever outcome at this point.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/22/19 11:57 AM
C,

Boy you sure are good at manipulating words and using them to allow you to pursue. You take MWDs words of "do what works" to indicate that you need to do what best for your situation. I wish I knew what you perceive as working in your situation?

Absolutely stick to your plan of no pursuit, NC and removing yourself completely out of the equation. I have a feeling you will know soon enough know where she stands.
Posted By: IHCLACS Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/22/19 12:34 PM
Curtis try looking at it this way. As much as it breaks your heart to bear witness to all this, and the person you once knew. Do you really want to aide and abetting to someone who is immorraly incorrect? That is what you should be standing for and for yourself and your kids
Posted By: MrBrside Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/22/19 12:57 PM
Originally Posted by curtis7
I came here to try and save my MR. I think thatís why most LBS come here. Somewhere along the line it usually turns into saving ourselves as the MR is gone. One way I find it helpful to discover what works is to read other peopleís sitches that have been through this before. Yes, itís true, there are VERY few success stories. All I can do is give it the best I can for as long as I can. Iím not saying that Iím going to copy the success stories and attempt to recreate those scenarios in the exact same manner; however, I am going to learn and apply what I feel is appropriate for my sitch.


I 100% agree with the first statement.. I used the word "magic bullet" in my previous post, as i think thats what most LBS want to find when they come here ( i read that term on here ).. We come here looking for a way to save our MR. And as per above, once we begin to read other posts, realise what we are going through is common, and listen to the vets who have seen this 100 times before, we realise its no longer about the MR, but us, and the kids.
So your first few lines are spot on.. Sorry to say, but the next line shows where your head is still at. When you say giving it the best that you can, for as long as you can.... Well you are doing a great job and have been for a long time... But at PERSUING... NOT detaching. You are still checking her messages and until 2 weeks ago were still applying pressure. So for 9 months you have been doing what you feel appropriate - against the advice on 100% of the people on here.

We get it. We were all there once and some people can detach quicker than others.


Originally Posted by curtis7
Over the past 2 weeks, aside from the horse, I am out of the equation. As Iíve stated I'm concerned about the legal ramifications of relocating the horse. I have been following a plan that I laid out a couple threads ago. Yes, my timeline has prolonged much longer than I anticipated. However, most of us know there is no quick fix.


Fair play on this, and i get that things are never straight forward. I ( we on the forum ) don't know your personal / legal logistics. But what i will say is i think you need to remove your rose tinted glasses and take a long hard look at this time line and the horse etc and be honest with yourself.. Is this whole thing prolonged because you are allowing it to take longer, in an effort to hopefully sway her back.. You have been discussing this since May from memory.. That seems very very prolongued.


Originally Posted by curtis7
Forgiveness is possible and trust can be restored, but she will need to do some very heavy lifting to make that happen. I will DB with time, space, and staying dim for a period of time. Then, weíll see who takes action first. I am ok with whatever outcome at this point


Sorry Curtis, but i dont buy this for a second. My take on heavy lifting and based on your desporation to win her back is a kiss, kuddle and "i love you" - You would let her move back in tomorrow IMO.

We all come here to save our MR, but you really need to look at the statistics on this. The majority of WAWs that go on to have a MR 2.0 actually do the same thing again anyway. I have found a handfull of examples online where people made MR 2.0 work long term and the WAW stayed loyal. From the examples i have found where MR2.0 worked, the WAW usually realises very soon what they are about to lose. In your sitch, and the majority (all i found actually ) where the WAW has gone / left the marital house, its very rare they come back giving it 100%.. They may want to when they they realise the grass isnt greener, but once back, they are still not happy - Even if she does return in 2 years time, the chances are very slim that she wouldnt do the same thing again once she gets back into the same routine. Without trying to offend, your WAW has issues. It is obvious from the posts you have written and the way she acts. She needs to fix herself ( if possible ) before even considering a healthy relationship. I suspect that a lot of these issues were present long before BD as well, but i susepct you chose to ignore the flags ( i'm totally guilty of this myself )... You cant help her or control her.. The same way i cant control you... But what i will say is that once you let her go ( really let her go ) you will begin to look back on what you had differently and realise that
1) - she wasnt all that
2 ) - you ignored lots of red flags
3 ) - There is a better life out there

Once in that place and you are in a better place, ( give it 12 months min ) you will realise there are other women out there, and life moves on.. Learn from this forum, stop with the NGS and dont ignore them red flags that you ignored first time round..Learn from the mistakes the WAW is making with the kids and most importantly, dont make them same mistakes when you meet a new lady and your head goes pop and the butterflys kick in.

Always put you and the children first !

Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/22/19 01:40 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
Boy you sure are good at manipulating words and using them to allow you to pursue. You take MWDs words of "do what works" to indicate that you need to do what best for your situation. I wish I knew what you perceive as working in your situation?

Absolutely stick to your plan of no pursuit, NC and removing yourself completely out of the equation. I have a feeling you will know soon enough know where she stands.
LH, why do I get the feeling that youíre just waiting for my W to file so that you can say ďI told you so.Ē Itís like you canít wait to say ďif you had only listened to our advice, maybe your sitch would have turned out differently.Ē On several occasions, you have told me that Iím going to regret not doing this or that. Sure, in hindsight I wish I would have kicked her out in December after discovering the first PA. I was not strong enough nor knew how these sitches typically play out back then. It [censored], I joined the board in March and my chances were extremely slim, yet I still couldnít bring myself to let her go.

The fact is many LBS come here and are completely unprepared to handle what their life has become. Often times, we donít have the courage or the confidence to do what is counter-intuitive. I know the vets give advice based on what theyíve seen work in the past in success stories and the LBS saving themselves. I do appreciate the advice.

Not all vets agree on the proper course of action. As such, I need to decipher and pick and choose what to implement and when. Ultimately, itís my life and I have to live with my choices. I canít change the past or control my WW. I do my best to move forward while standing for my MR.
Posted By: ovrrnbw Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/22/19 02:24 PM
Curtis,

you've been in a lot of pain and confusion for the last year. I've been there. You really love this woman, it shows, I can sense it. That makes it hard to let go and hard to see things clearly.

Also, I think there are plenty of success stories too, but that's just me. I won't keep a log of them as I always browse this site incognito and save nothing on the computer. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst!

I do think that you should reconsider the daily communication that you say are necessary for the children. I believe you can set a schedule and then communication only needs to be in emergency situation (AKA never). I think No Contact will be the best thing for you and your sitch. But you have to decide to set that parenting schedule and move the horse, until then, it won't matter. I think your W would freak out if you set this plan and stopped talking to her. She's not ready to lose you, but if you wait until she is ready, then it may be too late for you. NC was the best thing for my sitch, and I see similarities in ours. What do you think about this?

I know you said you'll do your best to move forward while standing - that is great. I just want you to think about concrete goals, what does this look like to you?

One thing discussed in Blu's thread is the resentment and length of time a WAS has been contemplating leaving. Your W isn't just obsessed with OM, she's also just tired of the way things were at home. It's not like her affairs aren't in the open. There's something stopping her. I know you mentioned she's stubborn and you fear she'll divorce rather than admit a mistake, but don't let this fear overtake your mind. What are you doing to become a better person? To heal? To grow? Sometimes this seems like Mrs. Curtis's thread, and I think if you're going to make a strong stand, you should switch it up!

I believe the issue with the mail where you asked for advice from the vets is a small issue. Return to sender, forward it to her address, hand it to the kids and say give this to Mom...whatever you'd like.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/22/19 02:34 PM
C,

The advice Iíve been giving you is about respect and your own well being. If it saves your marriage even better. I know itís hard to implement many of these suggestions but we still need to give advice based on what we feel works best for you and your children based on past experiences and research. I guess it is just confusing to us why you come here and reject just about 90% of the advice giving to you.

You are correct that you need to live with the choices you make so you should choose the choices you make moving forward.
Posted By: CWarrior Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/22/19 03:22 PM
Originally Posted by curtis7
Not all vets agree on the proper course of action. As such, I need to decipher and pick and choose what to implement and when.

Curtis, it feels like the advice you've been given has been extremely consistent on key points. Please count how many have said, "Talk to her daily" or "Send her a long message" or "Keep the horse."

Originally Posted by curtis7
Often times, we donít have the courage or the confidence to do what is counter-intuitive.

Absolutely! What would help you be more courageous? Would that be a happier and more attractive Curtis?
Posted By: Jac12 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/22/19 03:44 PM
Curtis, it sounds as though you want to twist things around to suit your actions...just as LH said. Then you call out LH as if he wants your W to divorce you. I don't get that sense at all, he's trying to help you change your course of actions because what you've been doing has NOT been working. Not only is your W still acting the same but you are delaying your own healing, which prevents your from moving forward with your life and becoming a stronger Curtis.

Just my 2 cents.
Posted By: joejoe1 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/22/19 06:01 PM
Curtis,
It has been said so many times about you cycling back and forth and not taking the advice given. But let me point out something. You asked what your WW see in this jerk of a guy.

Well, letís see, heís a jerk, but heís letís her know when he feels disrespected and calls her on it. His words are demeaning, but his message is: ďWW Iím not going to put up with your sh%t. You lied to me and tried to play me. See how she responded, she realized he wasnít playing and got in line.

Let me point another thing out, how you think your WW will look at you when/if she finds out you saw messages from OM and the way he was talking to her and you just acted like nothing happen, you were willing to take her back and not hold her accountable behind that situation or you werenít there to try to even call her on her sh%t and say I donít want my kids around this man. You will look weak

You keep treating your WW like sheís the prize, but most people treat things of rarity with priority. You are treating yourself like a common object and not like a prize worth more than any worldly possession. You are the prize, the diamond, the entity to work for, but you are treating yourself like sand on a beach and allowing your WW to take your for granted. STOP IT. Treat yourself like a prize and your WW has no other choice but to do the same thing.

You have a problem with control. Seems to me, that you biggest problem is not be able to control things and letting go. Nobody wants you to D your WW, We arenít telling you that, we arenít telling you to let go of the Marriage. We are telling you to let go of the idea that you can control this woman, and the idea that you have a fix. Because you donít. Fix yourself, and by fixing yourself you become more attractive and the best option. Right now you are the worst option for your WW. She sees you as the cause to all her problems. And Curtis keeps returning as the same person she left, to try and get her to come back. Well how about, Curtis not going to her anymore to ask her to come, to explain to her how he feels, and he becomes patient and wait until she returns. Respect yourself, love yourself and appreciate yourself, SO YOUR WW CAN DO THE SAME THING.

Joejoe
Posted By: neffer Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/22/19 06:19 PM
Great post JJ. Curtis, listen to us.

Set W free. Itīs enough.

RESPECT

(((C)))
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/24/19 01:06 AM
I am done and have set her free.

Tonight I sat her down and said the following:
ďThis isnít working for me anymore. I would have preferred to work things out, but I realize thatís not what you want. I respect myself too much to continue waiting for someone that doesnít want to be with me. I have decided to move forward with my life. Hopefully we can come to an agreement on custody and finances and make this process as simple as possible.Ē I then handed her the asset list.

She only said ďokĒ in an accepting tone.

I said ďI gotta go.Ē She said ďokĒ again and I walked away.

I remained calm and strong throughout looking her in the eye. Not surprisingly it didnít seem to phase her one bit. She is still so deep in affair fog. This is what she wanted. I love her enough to give her what she wants. I am done remaining in an open marriage. I stood for almost a year. My kids will know I tried to do the right thing. So thatís it, the end of my marriage. My fight is over, I have let her go.
Posted By: WMLC Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/24/19 01:10 AM
Curtis,

Having had a similar conversation with W last night, I sympathize with you. Itís not easy. But know you did the right thing.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/24/19 02:02 AM
C,

Iím am really sorry it came to you having to have that convo but I want to say that I think you handled that perfectly.

Now I have to warn you that she is going to test you. Moving forward I would stick to only discussing kids and the settlement. Do not respond to any other texts.

Youíre a good dude C and deserve so much better.

Stay strong my friend!
Posted By: MrBrside Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/24/19 11:17 AM
Originally Posted by curtis7

My fight is over, I have let her go.


Well done Curtis..

But the fight isnt over. Your fight "fighting for her" may feel like its over, but need to be strong as i suspect the real fight has only just begun.

I suspect

She will be temp checking sooner rather than later. And with all due respect, i feel you will let your guard down on this.. Hence be strong.

Sandi has highlighted how selfish the WAW can be. She will try, test and probably abuse you.. You need to be strong here and earn that respect. She will use your NGS against you and i feel you will take a step or 2 back. Dont let her call the shots.. Be stronger..

and remember

LOSE THE HORSE ;-P
Posted By: ovrrnbw Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/24/19 01:21 PM
Popular saying here is "Divorce is just a piece of paper". You still need to DB for yourself because a divorce isn't going to stop her from contacting you and pushing your buttons. That's why I'm not in favor of these profound convos.

Curtis, you doing ok today? I know having a big talk like that can be draining.
Posted By: neffer Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/24/19 01:33 PM
Keep walking the road of respect Curtis. Keep moving forward. Be consistent with your choices. You need to be strong there. Sheīll be temp checking soon.

RESPECT!

(((C)))
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/24/19 04:00 PM
Hey everyone, thanks for the support. Iím doing alright, only slept about 4 hours last night, but today I feel more at peace.

I will not allow her temp checks to sway me. Iíve allowed my boundaries to be crossed far too long. My eyes have been open to her cake eating for months. It finally sunk in that I am the prize. The pick me dance is over. Sheís made her choice, repeatedly. Iíve given her enough time and Iím starting a better life for myself.

GAL this weekend consists of heading out of town for a major college football matchup with some buddies from college, itís an annual tradition.

Thanks again for the support, I know so many of you have been trying to get me to wake up and let her go. I appreciate that. This is my time now!
Posted By: Thornton Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/24/19 04:25 PM
You are now on the right path, Curtis. Keep going!
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/24/19 04:42 PM
Originally Posted by curtis7
Tonight I sat her down and said the following:
ďThis isnít working for me anymore. I would have preferred to work things out, but I realize thatís not what you want. I respect myself too much to continue waiting for someone that doesnít want to be with me. I have decided to move forward with my life. Hopefully we can come to an agreement on custody and finances and make this process as simple as possible.Ē I then handed her the asset list.


Curtis, I'm not clear on what exactly you were telling her above, are you telling her that you are proceeding with divorce? Or just that you are done waiting? I'm surprised she didn't ask you what you mean, because that's not clear. What does "move forward with your life" mean to you?
Posted By: LH19 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/24/19 05:10 PM
Good point. I assumed he meant divorce because of the custody and finances statement.
Posted By: Caligirl Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/24/19 09:40 PM
You did great . Keep moving forward. Hope you have a great GAL this weekend . You did the strongest thing possible you let her go .
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/25/19 06:25 PM
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Curtis, I'm not clear on what exactly you were telling her above, are you telling her that you are proceeding with divorce? Or just that you are done waiting? I'm surprised she didn't ask you what you mean, because that's not clear. What does "move forward with your life" mean to you?

Originally Posted by LH19
Good point. I assumed he meant divorce because of the custody and finances statement.
Iím done living in limbo. That means working towards R or D. She clearly doesnít want R as the Aís continue, so that means D. She has been on the fence and Iím pushing her off. Iím moving forward and getting out of the lying and infidelity. If she changes her mind and wants R, then sheíll have to fight for me and the MR she destroyed. If that happens, it will be my choice.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/25/19 06:51 PM
Wow! Who is this new C7 guy? I donít recognize him. Enjoy your trip!
Posted By: ovrrnbw Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/25/19 07:59 PM
Personally I think you should wait and just DB for a few months. You've spent many months pursuing against probably all the advice you've received (including people not on this site) and now you've had enough. I understand. But I will repeat the fact that a divorce is a piece of paper and doesn't mean she's going to suddenly treat you differently. It's your call obviously, but I've seen you post so many times about how you going to stand for your marriage and be able to tell your kids you tried. You were in this spot a few months back, but you went into pursuit mode after that.
Posted By: IHCLACS Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/25/19 09:00 PM
I know I'm not one to talk Curtis because we all can easily flip flop here. I say this in kind love for you. Either do, or don't do. Miyagi says. Walk left side of road. Ok..Right side of road. Ok. Walk down middle of road. Get sqish just like grape. You do divorce yes, or you do divorce no. You do divorce guess so? Heart get squish just like grape.

What I am trying to say is. If you are really done. Kick her off the fence, get rid of the horse, and stop using D as leverage to bend her to you're will. She's probably ecstatic YOU want it to, which is why they happily reply "OK" THEY KNOW WHEN YOI ARE LOOKING FOR A REACTION, AND WHEN TOU REALLY MEAN IT BY ACTIONS. Don't even consider the hope or possibility of taking her back in the future. Put it as far out of your mind as you possibly can. Just keep blazing your trail for you and the kids. Whoever said Marriage and Divorce is just a piece of paper is genious FOR THESE CIRCUMSTANCES. I still think it is a covenant with God and their spouse. Now if she ever does have a change of heart, cross that bridge when you get to it if you get to it depending on the commitment determination, AND LEVEL OF RESPECT AND TREATMENT YOU ARE GETTING. Squatting bull says "$hit or get off the pot."
Posted By: CWarrior Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/26/19 08:00 PM
Hi Curtis,

I hope you're doing well this weekend. I admire your newfound strength!
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/31/19 02:51 AM
WW has the kids for Halloween and just texted me asking if I want to join them for trick or treating. Could be a courtesy invite or prompted by S8. He asked me yesterday morning if I was going trick or treating with them. I told him no, they are with their mom.

Very dim with her right now. Iíve let her go. Proper DB response?
ďOk, Iím sure the kids would like me to be there.Ē
ďNot this time. Thanks for the invite.Ē
ďNo W, thatís something a family would do together, you donít want to be a family.Ē
ĎNo responseí

I know, detach from the outcome, go if I want, donít go if I donít want to. The dilemma is my kids want me there and I enjoy watching them have fun, but frankly I donít feel like being around the lying cheater, sheís not good for me. Do whatís best for the kids or best for me? If we were D, I wouldnít be participating in family activities.

On another note D5 told me the following yesterday: ďItís not cool having two houses, mom said it would be cool, but itís not cool anymore. I donít like having my stuff at two different places.Ē Gosh that kind of stuff from my kids is tough to hear. They didnít ask for this and had no choice in the matter. It kills me that their childhoods arenít what they could be because their mother wants to sleep with OM.
Posted By: DS9 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/31/19 03:15 AM
Hey Curtis

It's tough isn't it mate. I'd suggest respond with just a "Sorry, I can't make it, regards C7". Remember, she chose this mate, not you. Why not make up a really cool Halloween activity you can do with the kids when they're with you again? Surprise them at changeover by getting dressed up in something Halloweeny and throw lollies around that they can catch!
Posted By: CWarrior Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/31/19 05:28 AM

Originally Posted by Curtis
If we were D, I wouldnít be participating in family activities.


Hi Curtis, Iíve been D over 8 years, and havenít missed a Halloween with my kids yet. Spending time with them on Halloween isnít about my ex-wifeóitís all about my kids and I.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/31/19 11:54 AM
I think you should go over and see them in their costumes and take some pictures and then leave. If you spent an entire weekend with her at Retrouvaille you can certainly be around her for 15 minutes or so.
Posted By: MrBrside Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/31/19 11:59 AM
C,

I do feel for you today. I'm in the same sitch and have my children wanting me to take them ( me, not her ) but as its her evening tonight, she calls the shots.

The ironic thing being that they are trick or treating on my estate, not the WAW housing estate as there are more houses on mine !.. I'll just go the gym instead.

WAW invited me to join her and her sisters and the the kids and go, but i have no intention of spending 2 minutes in the WAW company. My personal take is that it confuses the children, but each person has to make up their own mind. I also know it is my day next year on Halloween, so ill just go crazy next year smile
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 10/31/19 12:34 PM
Originally Posted by curtis7
Proper DB response?
ďOk, Iím sure the kids would like me to be there.Ē Good if you want to.
ďNot this time. Thanks for the invite.Ē Good if you don't want to.
ďNo W, thatís something a family would do together, you donít want to be a family.Ē No that's too angry/ vindictive.
ĎNo responseí No that's a bit rude considering it's an invite.


Quote
I know, detach from the outcome, go if I want, donít go if I donít want to.


Right! Your W is just being nice, by all means go if you want but don't expect that it changes anything. Just go and have fun. Do it with no pressure and maybe she'll start thinking you've changed for real.

Quote
The dilemma is my kids want me there and I enjoy watching them have fun, but frankly I donít feel like being around the lying cheater, sheís not good for me. Do whatís best for the kids or best for me? If we were D, I wouldnít be participating in family activities.


My attitude is always do what's best for the kids, even if it's not the best for you. I feel separated/ divorced parents should always show they are united when it comes to supporting the kids.

Quote
On another note D5 told me the following yesterday: ďItís not cool having two houses, mom said it would be cool, but itís not cool anymore. I donít like having my stuff at two different places.Ē


Listen and validate. Yes, even with your kids! "That sounds difficult for you, is that how you feel? I'm sorry you're struggling, but please understand that we both love you very much and are here for you."


Originally Posted by CWarrior
Hi Curtis, Iíve been D over 8 years, and havenít missed a Halloween with my kids yet. Spending time with them on Halloween isnít about my ex-wifeóitís all about my kids and I.


^^THIS^^
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 11/01/19 05:14 PM
I texted WW yesterday morning about trick or treating with the kids. I thanked her for the invite, but decided to pass and wished them a good time. Thought about it some more during the workday and realized Iím only going to have a handful more of these opportunities with my kids and I donít want to miss out on sharing these memories with them. At the end of the workday I texted her again saying I finished work up early and wanted to join them. She called me back a minute later and told me where to meet them in a friendís community.

The trick or treating was fun. W and I made a little small talk around the loop. I was cordial and did not initiate. I stayed close to the kids and focused on them. When we returned to our friendís house, W realized she lost her car keys. We spent the next 20 minutes looking high and low until someone finally found them in her jacket pocket. This is very typical, my W loses stuff often.

I thanked the friends for hosting and was ready to head out. W said ďYour leaving?Ē in a surprising tone like she wanted me to stay longer. D5 came up to me and wanted me to play for a bit. I stayed a few minutes longer, then left to hit up the weights at the gym. W texted me ďThanksĒ just afternoon leaving. I replied ďThank you, I enjoyed that.Ē W replied ďMe too.Ē

Not going to read anything into that exchange, sheís still WW until she proves to me otherwise through consistent actions.

Looking forward to picking up my kids this afternoon for our weekend. Soccer, volleyball, baseball, church, grilling out and whatever else pops up.
Posted By: CWarrior Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 11/01/19 05:16 PM
Hi Curtis, I'm so happy to read you had a great evening trick or treating with your kids.. and that you also have a weekend with your kids coming up. Enjoy!

Originally Posted by "Curtis"
Not going to read anything into that exchange, sheís still WW until she proves to me otherwise through consistent actions.

Definitely. Being pleasant while trick or treating with your shared kids is radically different from kicking all OM to the curb and committing to fighting for a monogamous relationship with you.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 11/06/19 05:39 PM
1 year post BD. This has been the most painful year of my life, but I made it, I survived. I am a better and stronger person. It has been an emotional roller coaster, but it gets easier every day. I have learned how to become more self aware and understand the impact of my words and actions. I have experienced the power of validation and importance of detaching from outcomes. I am grateful for what I do have in life and try not to focus on what I donít have or canít control. I am a better father and if my MR ever R, I will be a better H.

I am still married to my WAS/WW, no papers have been filed. That may be one of the goals of DB, but itís more about the LBS becoming the person they want to be, moving to a healthier mindset. Setting boundaries that protect ourselves and command respect. The reality is limbo [censored]. Accept it and make the best of it for yourself and your kids. I donít know what the future holds, but a year from now I feel confident that I will be in an even better place.

I encourage all newcomers to listen and follow the advice of the vets on the board. You will save yourself a ton of pain and suffering the earlier you are able to recognize your situation for what it is, DB, 180, follow Sandiís rules, set boundaries, detach, and GAL.

I never thought I would be here a year after BD. Itís true that this is a marathon and not a sprint. Enduring lies, cheating, and utter disrespect from the person that swore their life to you and vowed to forsake all others is a monumental undertaking. These trials can tear you down in the moment, but you will emerge stronger and better prepared to identify, handle, and thrive in future hardships. I commend every LBS that stands for their MR and does the right thing for themselves, their kids, and their WAS (even though they donít know it right now). Just remember that the LBS has the power to decide when enough is enough.

My story continues...
Posted By: LH19 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 12/03/19 10:23 AM
Any updates?
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 12/12/19 08:03 PM
Greetings fellow DBers, itís been awhile since Iíve posted an update. This one will be lengthy so Iíll divide it up into a few posts. Readerís digest version is that Iím still in limbo, married, separated, no paperwork filed, and Wís affairs continue as far as I know.

Where to begin, letís start with about 7 weeks ago when I told her I was moving forward with my life and handed her the asset list so we could start making decisions on dividing things up. Well about 5 weeks ago she was at our place feeding the horses and a lengthy R talk ensued. I approached her asking if she had reviewed the asset list. She said she hasnít had time. I asked whatís the plan with that? She said she doesnít know what she wants. She needs more time, blah, blah. Hasnít had time to figure things out. I said I donít know is as much of a non-commitment as I want our marriage to be over. I said that I donít want to remain married to someone that is pursuing affairs.

W said it was good that she told me it was over last November. She said I wouldnít have ever changed otherwise. I thought about it for a moment, then agreed that it helped me see the person and husband I wanted and needed to be. I told her the moment she gave me that letter (BD) everything became crystal clear. She said I made it worse by snooping and pressuring her afterwards. I agreed and said that all of that was unnecessary if she would have accepted the fact at the moment of giving me that letter I was forever changed. If only she knew how much unnecessary damage has been caused by not giving us a chance in those crucial first couple weeks after BD we could have been spared a world of hurt and recovery. Now we are faced with the greatest challenge in our lives and relationship. We agreed that our communication over the past year has been better than any time in our relationship.

She asked why I brought the list over that night. I said it was a culmination of things in that we were making progress at our Retrouvaille weekend, then on that Saturday night or Sunday morning I sensed that the OM contacted her and she pulled away. We were answering the dialoguing questions and meeting a few times in the weeks that followed, then she stopped working on it. Finally, D5 told me about how having two houses was not cool, all of that was why I felt it was time to give her what she wanted and move forward. It was just too much for too long. I told her I waited for a long time hoping that she realized the reality of her choices or that the affairs would fizzle out over time, but I couldnít tolerate it any longer. I told her I realized that she had become attached to the OM.

I told her I couldnít continue keeping this up in limbo and felt it was time to give her what she wants, not being married to me. She said she was talking to her childhood friend the night I came over and told her I was done. She was telling her how the Retrouvaille weekend was a disaster because I had expectations. She told her friend that maybe we could date each other. Then, she said I told her that I was moving on. I corrected her and said I was moving forward. She didnít understand the distinction and I explained that I am ready to move in a direction with or without her.

W said that I will control her by looking at everything if she were to come back and that was the whole reason she left. I told her like before that I donít want to have to watch over her, thatís not healthy for either of us. I said thatís why itís so important to rebuild trust so I never feel the need to monitor her. W was concerned about what people will think if she does or does not come back. W said I was raised being told I was perfect. She was raised believing that she isnít good enough and that no one thinks she can make it on her own. She said I donít know whatís it like to be deprecated by everyone. She doesnít want people to think she came back because she couldnít make it on her own.

W said that she hasnít contacted OM3 since before the RV weekend although he tried to contact her (lie, she went to his place in mid-Oct). She also said OM2 only contacted her recently to share something about his daughter (lie, she was scheduling a hookup with him a day earlier). She claimed not to have seen either of them. She says she went to them because it was convenient. I asked if sheís worried about the full truth coming out, if sheíll feel guilty, or that I wonít be able to forgive her, or that Iíll continue to bring it up and judge her. She responded that she feels zero remorse for what sheís done. I told her I do have an amazing capacity to forgive and based on what I know, which is the worst, I feel that we can get passed it. I told her that even my forgiveness has limits. Like when the affairs continue and you see how much it hurts me, but you donít choose to give them up. She said she knows even I have limits.

W said she never cheated on me until we were separated. I told her we are married, she said no we arenít. I said you can justify it any way you want. She said she was never with another man until she told me it was over. Again says that we arenít married, only a piece of paper, hasnít been able to feel separated, blah, blah, blah. I told her that we canít have a marriage or work on rebuilding until she breaks off all contact with the other men she is cycling between. She said what plural other men, how do you know, blah, blah, youíre spying on me, have you driven past my house? You make me out to be a slut. I told her you canít have feelings for me as long as you are in contact with them.

W said maybe we could start with dating. I told her I might be open to date her but will not compete with other men. She claims she can remain friends with them. I told her that is not an option. My boundary is absolute no contact with them ever again. She said she can understand that. I told her she is choosing affairs over family, infidelity over marriage. She said well I guess weíre done then. I said okay, I guess they are more important to you than me, than your family. She didnít like that and felt the guilt.

W said I only want her for the image and I like having others know she is with me. She said she knows her good looks and intelligence are attractive to all men. She said all these guys want her just for sex; from guys in their 20ís to older men. I asked is that what you want and she replied no. I described a book I read to her about 10/10/10. It suggests you think about the consequences and impacts of your decisions in 10 minutes, 10 months, 10 years from now. I asked her if these men are going to be there for her in the future. She said no, that they arenít long term options. I asked if she believes I will be there and she said she doesnít know. I said you donít know after having been there for 19 years together and knowing what Iíve tolerated the past year. She said you havenít been there for me. W said she is broken and doesnít think she can be fixed. I said you have someone right here that accepts all of you, even the broken parts.

I reiterated my boundary and said we canít move forward any other way. I told her that I canít go back to that pain, I need that boundary to be safe and to protect myself. I need that to be able to rebuild trust. I asked if she listened to an Affair audiobook I sent her several weeks earlier and she said she hasnít had time. I explained to her how the clock resets every time she interacts with the OM and her feelings for me wonít return until she closes that door forever. I said it could take many months and after 30 days of NC it will get easier for her, then 2 months, 3 months, and by 6 months she may lose the feelings for them completely and look back and ask herself what was I thinking, what did I almost throw away?

W kept asking how I know things and I just told her I know. She said we have everything yet she doesnít know what is missing. She asked why is it so easy to get married and so difficult to split everything up? She was upset about the thought of losing the place to keep her horse (there it is, the horse is most important to her, not me). She said Iím trying to force the situation and she knows Iím losing patience. I told her I canít keep living like this, I want more. I told her it [censored] when she goes back to them knowing what she is giving to them and not me. I told her it bleeping [censored]. She seemed to feel the shame. We walked to her car and she said we should sleep on it and talk again another time. We shared a long hug and she left.

The next day I scanned all the pages in my Retrouvaille notebook and emailed them to her stating I thought she might want it someday.

The next day she brought the kids over to exchange. I walked up to her car to ask a question about the kids, she was texting someone and looked at me with disgust for interrupting her. She answered my question and left. I later discovered she was headed to spend the night at OM3ís again. He lives 2 hours away. W texted me on her drive saying how good S8 is at chess and how both our kids amaze her. I replied to agree and state they have the best of us. It blows my mind how she can make choices in good conscience to destroy her family.

On to the next update for the action I decided to take...
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 12/12/19 08:04 PM
I had been reading another book about affairs and an approach is described that lays out Plan A (ask W to end A) and Plan B (go NC if chooses to continue the Aís). I felt it was appropriate to ask WW to end her Aís, clearly state my requirements for R, and allow her to make the choice.

Here is my version of Plan A that I sent in an email the morning after W spent the night with OM3 (about 4 weeks ago):
óóóóóóóóóóóó
W,
I am offering you a gift. That gift is the opportunity to save your family. I apologize for the part I played in leading up to the affairs. I see that I did not meet all of your most important emotional needs. I am willing to avoid the mistakes I made in the past and create a new life for both of us that will meet your needs. I am asking and encouraging you to end your affairs so we can begin to move forward together.
If you choose to join me, know that I have needs to protect my own mental and physical health. I want to communicate those needs to you. My needs are complete NO CONTACT with the affair partners and absolute HONESTY. I am not asking for this to be one-sided. We are both equally responsible for our marriage and working on a recovery plan. I will put forth my full support and effort to meet your needs. End your affairs and youíll find me more than willing to work on any and all of our issues, including my own.
Forgiveness is possible and trust can be rebuilt. I know that I will need to forgive you for what were very bad choices. I also know that does not define you as a person. Love is a choice and the feelings will follow. It may take many months. It will take work and starts with a commitment by you. I can assure you that I am NOT interested in judging or punishing you.†I can imagine what you are going through is confusing and incredibly difficult. I can only imagine your pain. I'm sorry for that. I've never wanted to see you in pain.
There is so much I want to experience in life with you. Your dreams, my dreams, our dreams, our kidís dreams and everything in between. You are the only partner I want to share that with. Iím not going to let one bad year destroy a lifetime of happiness in the future with you. I will do my best to forgive and forget the past.
I have no intention of making reconciliation painful, there has been enough pain on both sides leading up to this and over the past year. Also, it doesnít matter what others think, this is our life together. The next chapters in our story havenít been written yet. I want to make them filled with fun, excitement, and happiness falling in love with each other again.
I still love you, I always have. You are the greatest gift Iíve ever been given. I accept all of you and am grateful on the good days and the bad. We can have a marriage based on a foundation of love, trust, and respect. Letís put the past behind us, reunite our family, and build a new loving, fulfilled marriage.
If this is not what you want, know that I will be incredibly hurt, but Iíll understand itís time to move forward. I believe in you W. I feel confident that in the end you will do the right thing. Itís your choice.
With all my Love,
H
I'll leave you with this:
ďFall in love with your best friend. Someone you can talk to about anything and know theyíll hold no judgement. Someone who knows the darkest parts of you and loves you anyway, that knows all your flaws and loves you not in spite of them but because of them. Not someone that you canít live without, but someone that you donít want to live without. Someone that you want to experience all of lifeís ups and downs with. Someone who will hold your hand through the worst times of your life. When they see you at your worst, when youíre broken, and they donít run away but help you put the pieces back together, thatís real love.Ē
óóóóóóóóóóóó

W sent a text later that morning stating ďRead your email. Need to read it a couple more times I think. Thank you for sending.Ē

This was my version of earning my way out of the MR. My thought process behind taking this action was to remove ambiguity from what it will take to R with me, let W know that we can move beyond the betrayal, and work together to build a new MR that is better for both of us. My intent was not to offer a long period of time for her to make the choice. However, during that time she would experience the best version of me when we did interact. After a short time, I planned to ask for her decision. If she still doesnít know, then I planned to ask what she wants in the settlement.

A few days later, S8 was at a sleepover with a friend and I asked W if she wanted to join me to see a local concert. She didnít feel like being around other people and instead came over and watched a movie with D5 and I. W and I were talking during much of the movie about a new truck she would like, her saying that we should replace the coffee and end tables in our living room, remodeling disasters at her place, what she feels needs to be done over there, etc.

After the movie, D5 asked W to stay the night. D5 said you can sleep in bed with dad (bless her heart). W said she canít yet. We put D5 to bed and W got ready to leave. She decided to stay and talk about how over privileged others are and how no one in her circle has to live in a low cost home like her. She mentioned how her BFFís and others scoff at her place when they walk in. We talked about what else she wants to do with that house. She was getting tired, thanked me for the invite, and left.

The next day I took the kids to a birthday party and planned to play volleyball afterwards. W texted to ask about volleyball and said she wanted to play. She joined us and we had a great time. It was the first time she played in almost a year. We used to play together fairly regularly. It felt like W has some interest in things going back to her previous normal life.

A few days later I asked her out on a date to see a comedy show the upcoming weekend. On that Friday night, W came to volleyball with me and the kids again. On that Saturday night, I picked up W, we had a few apps and drinks at a nearby restaurant, shared many laughs at the comedy show, then went to a bar for a nightcap. We picked up the kids and dropped them off at her place. She thanked me for the evening. Still no physical contact or real desire that I could sense.

Over the next couple weeks leading up to Thanksgiving I flirted with her a bit and exchanged a few more texts than normal. I acknowledged that I pursued too much in this timeframe, she was feeling pressured, and I wasnít letting her come to me.

On to the next big R talk on Thanksgiving...
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 12/12/19 08:04 PM
My mother wanted to celebrate Thanksgiving at my place and invited W. I felt that was fine and accepted as it might be the last family dinner I share with her. W asked if she could invite divorced BFF and her kids. I thought about it for a couple days and informed her that would be okay. Even though BFF is not a supporter of our MR (sheís actually a cancer), she is important to my WW right now. I realized that I only asked my W to have NC with the OM and be honest with me in my email that stated my needs to build a new MR. I had thought about specifying something about continued interaction with BFF, but decided that people can live with cancer.

The night before Thanksgiving I discovered that my WW was again sending nude selfies to the OM. I decided it was time for her to make a choice. My thoughts were itís over, itís clear she canít stop or doesnít want to end her Aís. I wanted to take action and end this myself. I deserve respect in this relationship. I get nothing. She doesnít initiate, she doesnít give me anything but pain and suffering. Take, take, take. So selfish and only has love for herself.

When she arrived with the kids I asked her to join me outside by the pool to talk about something. Here are some key

H: ďI sent you the email a few weeks ago. Have you made a decision? Are you ready to rebuild our life together?Ē
W: ďI donít know. You have these expectations of me. We went on one date and youíre pressuring me.Ē
H: ďI donít want to be separated anymore. I know you were with both OM2 and OM3 in October and tried again November.Ē
W: ďOM2ís a boy and I havenít seen him in months, he contacted me about his daughter a few weeks ago. Thereís nothing to end with OM2, he doesnít contact me, thereís nothing there.Ē
H: ďI know you tried to arrange a meeting with him that week.Ē
W: ďDo you want me to leave and forget about this dinner?Ē
H: ďUp to you. You can do whatever you want.Ē
W: ďWhere are you getting all of this from? I want to know.Ē
H: ďIt doesnít matter how I know, it matters that I know and you are still not being honest about it. You also went to see OM3 a few weeks ago.Ē
W: ďNo, I havenít seen OM3 in months. Itís over with him. I told him this wonít work out. I deleted everything. Iím not ready to show you and open everything up to you, Iíll be right back under your thumb.Ē
H: ďI also know you had a PA with co-worker OM1.Ē
W: ďWhy do you think that, did you talk with him? Heís a narcissist. I never did anything with him. Over the past 4 months, Iíve had to push him away, Iím almost ready to go to HR. How do you know all these things? Where have you been looking?Ē
H: ďW, the lies and trickle truth are more painful. I donít understand why you canít be honest with me. If itís to protect me or because you think itís okay to never disclose everything. I would like us to be completely honest with each other so that there are no more secrets and we can rebuild trust.Ē

[I then thought to myself, what am I doing? Where is this going? Iíve disclosed all of the secrets I know about her and yet she refuses to own up to the truth. The lies are never ending, what am I fighting for? I just looked at her eyes which appeared very glassy, maybe the way the sunlight was shining on them. I asked myself who is the person? My W has been taken over by an alien monster. She looked unrecognizable to me.]

H: ďThis isnít going to work out. I just want us to be honest with each other, I canít live with the lies anymore. I wanted to tell you everything I know so that there is nothing between us.Ē
W: ďOk, how about the time when you werenít there for me, or the other time, blah, blah, blah, or all the other crap I had to put up with for 18 years. People donít know about that.Ē
H: ďIím sorry for all those things. If I had to do it over again, I would have done things differently. I feel we can build a better marriage together. I thought about what I needed in that email and could have asked for a lot more, but in the end all I need is for you to commit to NC with your affair partners and be honest with me.Ē
W: ďThey are not affairs, we are separated. You havenít let me be separated this whole time. Are you going to keep looking for stuff if we divorce?Ē
H: ďI donít need to look. I had hoped that you ended your affairs. Once I knew that wasnít the case, I decided that Iím done. Go ahead and donít call them affairs, but most women move out so they can sleep with OM without interference from their H. I donít want this separation anymore. I wanted my W and family back. Can you appreciate that? Is that wrong to want my W and family? I feel that you have an addiction and canít see through the affair fog. It keeps drawing you back. Once youíve gone NC, Iíve read that it takes 3-4 weeks for the strongest feelings to subside during withdrawal and almost all feelings are gone in 6 months. Every time contact is re-established the clock resets. Do you want to end contact? Have you tried to stop and suffered relapses? Do you need help, I have no problem stepping in and protecting our family.Ē
W: ďThis is about you keeping up your image with me.Ē
H: ďI make no apologies for trying to save and protect my family. I want you, itís everything about you, not just the sex like it is for your OM. I want our marriage to last, but if youíve decided that they can make you happier than I can, itís time for me to step aside. It comes down to a choice. If you wonít choose to end your affairs, then I can no longer remain married to you. So, what do you want?Ē
W: ďI donít know. I should be here and you should be over there at that other house.Ē
H: ďI didnít step out on our MR and decide to be with other people.Ē
W: ďYouíre holding all the cards at this place because you know everything I want is here.Ē
H: ďYes, because this is the life we built together. Of course, what we want is here. Do you think youíve given our MR a try? Do you want to give our MR a try? Is our MR worth it, is our family worth it?Ē
W: ďI donít know. I want to see that counselor again. Can I have her name and use your employer plan?Ē
H: ďGo right ahead, but sheís not pro marriage.Ē
W: ďItís not for marriage counseling, itís for me.Ē
H: ďThis is the biggest decision youíll have to make for the rest of your life. It is bigger than the two of us. Iíve weighed that out and chosen you. Iím afraid that you are about to make the 2 biggest mistakes of your life. The first when you decide to end our marriage and the second 6 months later when the affair ends and the fantasy wears off.Ē
W: ďI know itís my choice, but you are going to control me all over again just like you are now by trying to force a decision.Ē

[Again I sensed all she wants is to continue the cake eating and string me along.]

H: ďThis isnít going to work out. Iíve given you more time and more and more and more. Each time you havenít chosen me. Itís time to move forward. Letís talk about the settlement. How much custody of the kids do you want?Ē
W: ďWhat makes you think I want any less than half?Ē
H: ďI donít know what you want, thatís why I asked. What do you want for the house?Ē
W: ďI think we should keep it together until you decide to sell someday in the future.Ē
H: ďThat doesnít work for me, we need to divide things up.Ē
W: ďWell then Iíll need support for my horse for boarding.Ē
H: ďThat will be your responsibility to resolve. How about the other assets?Ē
W: ďI want everything I had before we were married and all gifts that were given to me during MR.Ē
H: ďPlease give me a list and Iíll have my lawyer start drawing it up. I really canít understand how your unwilling to give our MR any chance and give up what we have together. Do you really think itís going to last with them, why wonít you at least give us a chance?Ē
W: ďIím not physically attracted to you.Ē
H: ďI understand that and it could take a long time for that to return, but it starts with a commitment. It will never return as long as you are with them. That I know for a fact.Ē
W: ďI canít come back and leave again. I canít do that to the kids.Ē
H: ďWhy canít you come back and try? Thatís what the kids want. At least theyíll have their parents together longer even if things donít work out.Ē
W: ďI just know that your claws are going to come out if we continue down the path of divorce.Ē
H: ďWhy go in that direction? I wish you would have seen on the day you gave me the letter that I was forever changed and we wouldnít have had to go through this past year of pain. It is what it is and Iím willing to put the past behind us and build something better, the right way this time.Ē
W: ďblah, blah, blah excuses and lies.Ē
H: ďAre you ok with an uncontested divorce?Ē
W: ďDepends on how we divide things up, blah, blah, blah.Ē

W went in to help prepare dinner. Divorced BFF came over with her girls. We ate, probably the last family dinner I ever have with her. Cleaned up dishes and leftovers. Then we all watched a movie by the pool. W was overly nice after dinner and brought me drinks and snacks during the movie.

W then said she wanted to go to volleyball the next day. W and BFF left to stay at her place. I emailed W the counselor info, some links on affair resources, and my login info to listen to audiobooks on affairs that are saved to my account. I texted her and asked if she meant what she wrote at Retrouvaille. She replied yes. I asked if she still felt the same way about her responses and she said she would have to read again to be certain.

That takes us through Thanksgiving.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 12/12/19 08:06 PM
On Black Friday, I invited W and the kids over to grill out. They came and W did some freelance work on the computer. I gave D5 a ride on the horse, then I rode myself. W came out and gave me some tips on riding. I grilled hamburgers for all of us. W showed me some Xmas gifts for the kids on her phone. I got the kids ready for volleyball, W changed her mind and wanted to go take a bath instead. She said she might come later, but she never showed up.

The next day S8 asked if we were all going to be together for Xmas. I replied I donít think so. He laid on the patio furniture and cried. I comforted him and said if there was anything I could do to make things better I would. I reassured him that God has a plan for us and we need to keep faith that things will work out in the end. W came over in the evening to feed the horses. I showed her a Xmas tree I wanted to buy and asked to borrow her SUV to go pick it up. She agreed and stayed at our house to watch the kids. I returned after 10pm, the kids were already asleep. W had done some cleaning in the kitchen. She helped me setup the tree. Then, we sat in the living room and enjoyed a bottle of wine. We exchanged small talk, no R discussion. One interesting comment she made when talking about her GF that became a widow over the summer. The GF was in an A and her deceased H knew about it. The AP is pursuing the GF again, but she is hesitant as she knows her H would have been okay with her being with anyone else after he died. My W told her she should be with whoever makes her happy because her H isnít coming back. W said that probably isnít what I want to hear. I did not respond. I enjoyed spending time with my W that evening until she finally left at 1am.

A couple days later, W brought the kids over to watch a movie on Disney Plus. S8 asked W if they were going to stay at my house for Xmas. W replied that is up to dad. S8 then asked her if she was going to stay with us and said that she could sleep in the guest bedroom. She said weíll see. I kept quiet, was thinking I donít want her staying at our house unless sheís in the master bedroom with me.

Kids came back the next day and S8 told me that on Thanksgiving morning he asked W why she doesnít come back. She said that she is trying, she knows itís the right thing to do for me, S8 and D5, but if she comes back she knows she will be miserable. So that is why she is thinking about just staying at the other house. Hard to hear this once again but not surprising with the WW mindset. How does she know sheíll be miserable? I didnít let it bother me. Believe nothing they say. If she wasnít in active affairs, maybe she would feel differently about our future. Impeccable timing on my part to confront her on a decision to end her affairs shortly after she had this discussion with the kids.

The next day my W made an appointment for IC (scheduled for today). Maybe she will get the helps she needs. Hereís what may shock many of you based on my pursuit in these most recent updates. That same day I contacted my L to proceed with making arrangements to protect me and my kids. Iím moving forward on parallel paths. If she wants to R, that can be discussed. If WW is her choice, then so be it.

Last weekend, W came to volleyball with us again on Friday and watched two more Disney Plus movies with D5 and I on Saturday. On Sunday, I met her and the kids at a birthday party for a mutual friend.

I really donít know where she stands with her APs. My current stance is assume the Aís are continuing until she proves to me otherwise.

Thatís my sitch through the end of November and to date. Whew, that was a lot to share. GAL is going well, I keep busy. Mentally Iím in a much better place. Detachment is better. Her words and actions donít have nearly the effect they had on me even a couple months ago.
Posted By: may22 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 12/12/19 09:19 PM
Hi Curtis,

Wow, thank you for sharing. She sounds like she's still a mess. It is just so frustrating to see someone you love totally and completely screw up their own life and then take others along for the ride. My kids are a little older than yours but in the same range... must be so hard to hear them doing things like inviting your W to sleep over at the house.

One question for you-- what is the audiobook you mentioned you gave to her?
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 12/12/19 09:46 PM
Curtis, her perception is that the marriage is over, and her perception is her reality. So why are you trying to argue and negotiate the terms of the marriage with her when she's already made it crystal clear to you that it's over? If you get fired from your job do you go back to your ex-boss the next day to discuss a pay raise and fewer working hours?
Posted By: LH19 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 12/13/19 12:35 AM
C,

The fact she said you havenít let her be separated the whole times speaks volumes Curtis. Youíre trying to control her.
Posted By: ovrrnbw Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 12/13/19 12:55 AM
Wow,

Still serving cake to your own detriment, still having R talks, trying tactics and pressure, and talking about moving on instead of moving on.

Your W is telling you everything you need to know and you're clinging hardcore. She has no respect for you.

Are you in IC?
Posted By: Jac12 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 12/13/19 01:58 AM
Curtis,

I saw a lot of pressure there on your part. I know what it's like to feel like you need to say a lot of things and get things out but I'm not sure it's ever helped in my situation and it doens't seem like the conversation helped in yours either.

If you are ready to move on then just move on. Contact your L and do what you need to do. You don't need to tell her. Actions over words.

One thing I seem to see a lot: If you pressure the WW or WAS to make a decision she's often going to make the one you don't want. And as the vets say, she is going on her FEELINGS at the MOMENT...they are subject to change but they wont' change if you don't give space and focus on yourself.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 12/13/19 04:09 AM
Originally Posted by may22
One question for you-- what is the audiobook you mentioned you gave to her?
Hi May, weíre not supposed to post book references. There are actually 3 on affairs that I asked her to read. The authors are Glass, Spring, and Harley. Highly recommended and should be easy for you to find.
Posted By: joejoe1 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 12/13/19 05:04 AM
Curt,

Well, I see you are in the same spot doing the same things. Insanity!

Joejoe
Posted By: scout12 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 12/13/19 06:20 AM
Everyone else has said what I am thinking already but my main question is: why are you still snooping her messages? She is obviously upset and agitated and knows you are snooping somehow but hasn't cottoned onto your method. This is an invasion of privacy and a control tactic. Change the passwords, remove access to her accounts or devices, whatever it takes to do the right thing because you obviously can't control yourself. You know this is wrong and it's only hurting you and hurting your chances of genuine reconciliation. Please just stop.
Posted By: MrBrside Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 12/13/19 09:00 AM
Curtis,

I've been wondering how you have been getting on.. I read your posts just shaking my head in disbelief...

Nothing to add to what others have said already. You really don't grasp anything that people say. You say you do, but always revert back to pressure and control.

Best of luck.. I hope you manage to sort your life out in 2020, and not just go over the same old ground like you have for the course of 2019.
Posted By: IHCLACS Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 12/13/19 05:21 PM
The definition of insanity is doing the same things over and over and expecting a different outcome.

Quote of the day. Thought without action is like a car without a transmission. The engine sounds good when you rev it. But the vehicle doesn't go anywhere.

Wow Curtis! I thought I was long winded! Alright. Im going to high five you on changing for the better. Working on communication, being patient, having a huge amount of compassion, being a better version of yourself, etc. You have some serious milestones you have achieved and I congratulate you. (I've barely started on my own inner self work this last year, but have come to a lot of realizations so in a way its healthy. But requires a lot more action on my part.)

We want them to change course, we want them to choose us and the life we idealized of them and with them, we want them to make the right choices. Our right isn't their right, our perception isn't their, And we are not them!!! The sooner you step out of your own views, and try and wrap your head around there's a little while giving them silence and space, the more compassion and understanding you will have for them, the more you see their errors but more importantly the more you see your own and make those changes on them that's just my realization. I get it. A part of me gets it why you are still holding onto hope.

Back to my 2x4. Ill put it plainly. Your words are incongruent with your actions. Here is what most of us are hearing from you in the last year...
"I'm going to end the Marriage if you don't stop cheating.... Wait wait.... I can be better... We can be better if you stop cheating and come to your senses...We can be a family...I've changed...Did you change your mind yet? How about now? I'm filing for divorce if you don't come back to me. I think we could be great together... Let's try counciling... Lets go away to Retroville. If you don't stop cheating, I'm going to file..."† You get the picture.... You keep beating (no pun but absolutely pun intended.) The same dead horse over and over and over for a solid year. You need to be b*th slapped like bugs bunny does with his white glove to his nemesis. Curtis. I feel you I do. We all do. We all hurt. We all want things to be better, our R's to be better, out sich's to be better. But the fact is no one person should be the center of our lives without their commitment and their actions displaying such. P-E-R-I-O-D. It's not worth your self respect, your worth, and your sanity. (Even though we temporarily lie to ourselves every day that eventually they are coming back.)

Im not saying file, Im not saying give anymore ultimatums. Here is a task for you that Im trying to implement in my own life all around it. My problem is my mouth, and how wordy I am to get my point across.

Make it your goal to use as little words as possible. Less is more. Convey all of your intentions through actions.† Sometimes silence is action. Your worth is in your silence and your actions† believe it or not. How much impact do you think you will have consistently in your silence, give them the gift of silence and give them the gift of missing you. You are worth every bit of it my friend, and they are worth every bit of that treatment until they earn your respect back with actions. Talk is cheap.
Posted By: BluWave Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 12/14/19 06:50 PM
Curtis,

I did not go back and read all of your posts, but I did read your recent updates. It was hard to read. I am not sure what I can tell you that these guys have not already said. Is there something different I can offer you? Perhaps you think I did something that made my H come back? I don't think I did. There were many circumstances that led to his return and I didn't do anything to make him. He chose to.

As I see it, you do not follow the DB principals and you continue to search for and hang on to any bit of hope (what you perceive to be hopeful) that you can find. I can't see in your updates where she is showing you any desire to R with you. Can you tell me what she says and does that lead you to think that? Because what I see is that she is afraid of your reactions and of how difficult a D will be with you. Unfortunately that does not translate into her being confused about wanting to be with you. She is saying and acting in ways that prove she does not.

What I am reading is that your actions are cycling between pursuit and pressure. Your words however are conflicting with that and you are waffling between, 1. the same pursuit and pressure, or 2. that you are okay with her walking away, but you just want to know some truth that she is withholding, and then you will be detached and resolved when she tells you said truth. .... I cannot imagine how confusing this must be for her. You are giving her mixed messages and basically trying to control her. I don't think she is hiding any truth from you. She is wanting to move on from you and you are not letting her and she feels guilty about that. Again, that does not mean that she wants to be with you right now.

Although, I am sorry to tell you what you don't want to hear, and that is that I don't think she is really giving you mixed messages. She is showing you and telling you she is done and wants to move on. Please do not confuse her ambivalence with the process to mean that she wants to be with you. If she wants to be with you, you will just know without questions. It's that simple. When she wants to be with you and R, SHE will be the one pursuing you and trying to get YOU back!

I am not sure how to advise you because I see that others are doing that and you are not ready to hear it. All you can do is take a beginners mind set and start over. Drop the rope, go dark, accept that she doesn't want to be with you, and then you focus on you. You don't have to tell her anything, take actions or file. The first priority should be looking inward and letting go of a very unhealthy need you have to be with her and to control this situation. It's going to take a long time I am afraid. Why not just accept that discomfort and loss and start there?

Blu
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 12/17/19 12:55 AM
Remember when you were so persistent in giving her the Robx speech? It was not effective due to several reasons.....one being that your timing was off. In other words, if you had given her the speech fairly early in the sitch, and actually stuck by it........it would have carried more weight. The end result however, was the same action you've insisted upon using throughout the sitch, which was emotional pressure/pursuit.

Quote
I had been reading another book about affairs and an approach is described that lays out Plan A (ask W to end A) and Plan B (go NC if chooses to continue the Aís). I felt it was appropriate to ask WW to end her Aís, clearly state my requirements for R, and allow her to make the choice.


So now you've discovered MB, and you like the way they lay out Plan A & B. What do you see in the above statement that is so different from the advice you were receiving from the DB vets? How many times have you told her how you felt, and what you wanted......and that she would have to end things with OM, b/c you would not compete with them? I've got news for you, if you can't follow DB, I doubt you'll follow the instructions in the other book/forum. You can't follow that author's instructions, b/c you can't go NC with your WW. You can't detach, and you can't leave her alone.

The pressure, guilt, and shame you put on her is incredible. You know what it tells her? It tells her that you are controlling. You can't even show her how you've changed (b/c you haven't changed), but yet......you expect her to trust that you will be a better H if she'll just give up her affairs and commit to the MR? Why? You don't even know how to meet her emotional needs.

So then, you send her an email, which IMHO, lacked something. Maybe b/c you have already said this stuff, in one way or another. How was this different from the other talks? I don't think it was. You labeled it Plan A, and basically, said the same stuff again.

Quote
This was my version of earning my way out of the MR. My thought process behind taking this action was to remove ambiguity from what it will take to R with me, let W know that we can move beyond the betrayal, and work together to build a new MR that is better for both of us. My intent was not to offer a long period of time for her to make the choice. However, during that time she would experience the best version of me when we did interact.


No offense intended, but ignoring our advice and continuing the pressured R talks and trying to cause her to feel guilt/shame.....has pretty much earned your way out of MR. Why continue doing what hasn't worked? Your thought process hasn't changed. You may label it differently, but at the end of the day......you are still trying to talk her back. If she had asked what it would take for her to reconcile with you, then it would have been fine to expound on the subject. Let me tell you something about the thought process of a WW. The more you press her, the more disgust she feels toward you. You are making a lot of claims, when she is not even interested in going around a second time with you. I mean, the words sound nice, but I don't think you really know what kind of work is in store for either of you, in order to have a fulfilled MR. You just want to win her back, and if one tactic doesn't do the job, you look for another one, and add your own version. All you've shown her is more of the same controlling man, and that cancels all your flowery promises about a future relationship. Like some other LBH's, you have not done the work on yourself, but you want her to trust you to be a better H after she gives up her affairs, etc. What I see happening, is you emotionally wearing her down. That's how some guys work. However, it doesn't cause her to feel desire for him. She may give up, under relentless pressure, and she may go back home.......but IMHO, you are giving her more reason to feel disgust and resentment toward you. You have to stop with these type of talks, and emotional pressure.

Quote
After a short time, I planned to ask for her decision. If she still doesnít know, then I planned to ask what she wants in the settlement.


You've already given her a list showing divided assets, when you gave the Robx speech. It didn't create the desired results you were hoping to get, so on another occasion, you asked her what she thought about the list........ and you went into another R talk. If you ask her what she wants in the settlement, she's going to give you her default answer........"I don't know". So, what's the next step forward?

Well, you couldn't wait, so you had another R talk the day before Thanksgiving. That really was a short period of time!

Quote
W: ďThey are not affairs, we are separated. You havenít let me be separated this whole time. Are you going to keep looking for stuff if we divorce?Ē


She's right about one thing.......you have not let her be separated this whole time.

Quote
H: ďI donít need to look. (Really?) I had hoped that you ended your affairs. Once I knew that wasnít the case, I decided that Iím done. Go ahead and donít call them affairs, but most women move out so they can sleep with OM without interference from their H. I donít want this separation anymore. I wanted my W and family back. Can you appreciate that? Is that wrong to want my W and family? I feel that you have an addiction and canít see through the affair fog. It keeps drawing you back. Once youíve gone NC, Iíve read that it takes 3-4 weeks for the strongest feelings to subside during withdrawal and almost all feelings are gone in 6 months. Every time contact is re-established the clock resets. Do you want to end contact? Have you tried to stop and suffered relapses? Do you need help, I have no problem stepping in and protecting our family.Ē


Wow! You just kept hammering.

Quote
W: ďThis is about you keeping up your image with me.Ē
H: ďI make no apologies for trying to save and protect my family. I want you, itís everything about you, not just the sex like it is for your OM. I want our marriage to last, but if youíve decided that they can make you happier than I can, itís time for me to step aside. It comes down to a choice. If you wonít choose to end your affairs, then I can no longer remain married to you. So, what do you want?Ē


I think your WW may have a good point. I tend to agree with her, after months of reading your posts and seeing your stubbornness to follow advice. I think these affairs have hurt your male ego a lot. I'm sure it would hurt anyone to know their spouse has had an affair. But when she referred to your image, it had a truthful ring. As I previously said, you want to win her back from these OM. Although you told her you couldn't or wouldn't compete with OM, that's exactly what you are doing! If they dumped her and she went crawling back to you......I'd bet you would not be near as interested as when you are challenged.

Quote
H: ďThis is the biggest decision youíll have to make for the rest of your life. It is bigger than the two of us. Iíve weighed that out and chosen you. Iím afraid that you are about to make the 2 biggest mistakes of your life. The first when you decide to end our marriage and the second 6 months later when the affair ends and the fantasy wears off.Ē


I don't know that she is in a particular fantasy, since she's been through three men the past months. I think she is searching for something she hasn't felt in a long time.......maybe never, IDK. You sound close to bullying her. The statement above is your opinion and how you feel. It's not what she thinks & feel. It's on the verge of sounding arrogant. I realize you are trying to reach through her fog, but whenever it becomes pressure.......you lose her. I don't know what it will take for you to finally see. You've been so hellbent on telling her everything you read about WW's, that you've missed getting it yourself.

Quote
W: ďI know itís my choice, but you are going to control me all over again just like you are now by trying to force a decision.Ē

[Again I sensed all she wants is to continue the cake eating and string me along.]


If it wasn't for the detailed conversations you've shared, I would be inclined to agree.....simply b/c WW's take advantage wherever they can. I have said the reason she hasn't initiated the divorce is b/c she is benefiting from being Mrs. Curtis. After reading this conversation, I think it's b/c she doesn't want to lose the home/ranch. I also believe you know it, and that's the reason you have not sent the horse away. It's your bait. I'm not saying she doesn't do her share of cake eating.....but I don't buy your excuse of loving animals is the reason you didn't let the horses go. You knew what you were doing.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 12/19/19 02:44 AM
First of all, I appreciate all of the responses on the board. It does give me a lot to think about and apply to my sitch. I have been fortunate to receive tremendous input from so many people that care about me and want to see me reach a better place.
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Curtis, her perception is that the marriage is over, and her perception is her reality. So why are you trying to argue and negotiate the terms of the marriage with her when she's already made it crystal clear to you that it's over? If you get fired from your job do you go back to your ex-boss the next day to discuss a pay raise and fewer working hours?
AS, point taken. Iíve had a tendency to get sucked into these R talks on an almost monthly basis. About halfway through the talk in October and again on Thanksgiving, I realized she doesnít feel we are married and therefore she has no remorse for her choices. These talks ensued upon me trying to push forward with movement towards some type of decision or D. She has made it crystal clear; however, W is not cooperating on this front, she remains ambivalent.

Originally Posted by LH19
The fact she said you havenít let her be separated the whole times speaks volumes Curtis. Youíre trying to control her.
LH, this is the same rhetoric she has used all along for me discovering and/or attempting to interfere with her Aís. Forgive me for trying to control my W to not cheat on me. What happened to believe nothing WW say? Yes, she was forced into a defensive posture and reverted to her standard response when outed once again. Yes, I tried to maintain some level of control throughout all of this. I havenít completely let her go for long periods of time, only in spurts. I didnít stop her from buying a house and moving out. I didnít expose her Aís. I didnít cutoff access to her horse. I havenít filed for D. Those all would have been more extreme versions of control IMO.

Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
Still serving cake to your own detriment, still having R talks, trying tactics and pressure, and talking about moving on instead of moving on.

Your W is telling you everything you need to know and you're clinging hardcore. She has no respect for you.

Are you in IC?
I am not in IC. W went to IC last week. I have not inquired how it went.

I am trying to move on. She did nothing with the asset list. She balked at the D settlement discussion. I feel controlled to some extent.

I wish she would come to me and initiate dates. Maybe thatís just not in her nature, so I have tried to lead on occasion and show her whatís good about us, our MR, and our family. I see this as a very lengthy process if she is to be attracted back. Although, what is more likely to happen is that I become overly frustrated by her lack of effort and push forward with leading the D.

Originally Posted by jac12
I saw a lot of pressure there on your part. I know what it's like to feel like you need to say a lot of things and get things out but I'm not sure it's ever helped in my situation and it doens't seem like the conversation helped in yours either.

If you are ready to move on then just move on. Contact your L and do what you need to do. You don't need to tell her. Actions over words.

One thing I seem to see a lot: If you pressure the WW or WAS to make a decision she's often going to make the one you don't want. And as the vets say, she is going on her FEELINGS at the MOMENT...they are subject to change but they wont' change if you don't give space and focus on yourself.
Jac, hard to say what effect those conversations have on WW. She may be sensing that her time is running out as Iíve dropped hints that Iím walking away since each one inches closer to D. An uncontested D may be preferred which Iíve been attempting to pursue. She may make the decision I donít want, but after over a year of knowingly being cheated on, many reach a point where they just want a decision...any decision. Iím a bit frustrated here as Iíve reached out to my L a few weeks ago and am awaiting a draft settlement to present to my W. Must be a busy time of year for Lís. W may very well take no action until I file on my own.

Originally Posted by JoeJoe1
Well, I see you are in the same spot doing the same things. Insanity!
JoeJoe, I donít completely agree. I am preparing myself to move forward. I am not sitting idly by. Sure, I would be open to R and am still trying to find what may help my sitch. W knows that my patience is wearing thin. She has changed as well. She is spending more time with me and the kids together. She has resumed some activities that were shared pre-BD. Has she shown much indication of wanting to come home? Not much. Has she shown any desire for me? Hardly. Still, I hold on to some hope. I question whether she has doubts of staying away for good and if she has thoughts of ending her Aís. If so, then itís possible her recent contacts and meetings with the OM could be lapses or relapses and not total collapses. Iíve read that these are to be expected when breaking the addiction of infidelity.

Originally Posted by scout12
Everyone else has said what I am thinking already but my main question is: why are you still snooping her messages? She is obviously upset and agitated and knows you are snooping somehow but hasn't caught onto your method. This is an invasion of privacy and a control tactic. Change the passwords, remove access to her accounts or devices, whatever it takes to do the right thing because you obviously can't control yourself. You know this is wrong and it's only hurting you and hurting your chances of genuine reconciliation. Please just stop.
Iíve stopped. W asked me stop 3 weeks ago and I have. For a long time I would see or sense things were improving where I thought she may have ended it with the OM. Time and time again my hopes were dashed when I found out she went back to them. Gathering intel isnít necessarily wrong depending on the circumstances (i.e. confirming A or NC). It can be helpful at times to find out whether what you are doing works. However, there comes a point where itís better for my own mental state to stop and just assume that the affairs are continuing until she proves otherwise.

Originally Posted by MrBrside
Nothing to add to what others have said already. You really don't grasp anything that people say. You say you do, but always revert back to pressure and control.

Best of luck.. I hope you manage to sort your life out in 2020, and not just go over the same old ground like you have for the course of 2019.
Mr Brightside, what can I say, I still love the woman. She turns me on. When I have a choice to be around her or enjoy some event with her, I cherish those moments. I donít know how many I have left with her, so Iím going to enjoy them when I have the opportunity.

I became stronger in 2019, in 2020 I will be happier. W knows that time is running out. This stems from what I have grasped from people here. She sees my 180s and knows what she stands to lose. I have not given her the sense of loss that has caused her to hit rock bottom and end her Aís. Maybe Iím not strong enough to do that. I certainly have lost a ton of respect for her and almost all trust. I can see where avoiding pressure and R talks are advised early in sitches. However, when things cool off and settle down and communication becomes less adversarial, I feel there comes a time to push the envelope. I donít want to live in a perpetual state of limbo indefinitely.

Originally Posted by IHCLACS
Make it your goal to use as little words as possible. Less is more. Convey all of your intentions through actions.† Sometimes silence is action. Your worth is in your silence and your actions† believe it or not. How much impact do you think you will have consistently in your silence, give them the gift of silence and give them the gift of missing you. You are worth every bit of it my friend, and they are worth every bit of that treatment until they earn your respect back with actions. Talk is cheap.
IHC, great advice. Iím trying to implement less is more in text responses and verbal interaction over the past few weeks. She initiates almost all texts and I donít respond to several especially if unrelated to the kids.

Originally Posted by BluWave
I am not sure what I can tell you that these guys have not already said. Is there something different I can offer you? Perhaps you think I did something that made my H come back? I don't think I did. There were many circumstances that led to his return and I didn't do anything to make him. He chose to.

I can't see in your updates where she is showing you any desire to R with you. Can you tell me what she says and does that lead you to think that? Because what I see is that she is afraid of your reactions and of how difficult a D will be with you. Unfortunately that does not translate into her being confused about wanting to be with you. She is saying and acting in ways that prove she does not.

When she wants to be with you and R, SHE will be the one pursuing you and trying to get YOU back!
Hi Blu, I donít know there is anything specific you can offer that is different from what others have perceived. I agree that if my W comes back, I hope it is because it was a choice she made and not something I forced upon her. Youíre right that she hasnít shown any real desire to R with me. I really donít see her pursuing me anytime soon. W and I have spent more time together in the past couple months. That doesnít mean she wants to (perhaps itís just related to the holiday spirit between Halloween and New Yearís). W does not initiate, but has accepted more of my invites. This perturbs me, I feel like all of the effort and energy being put into this MR has been one-sided. This is so mentally draining when itís all give and no receive.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 12/19/19 02:53 AM
Originally Posted by Sandi2
You can't follow that author's instructions, b/c you can't go NC with your WW. You can't detach, and you can't leave her alone.
Plan A doesnít involve NC, which is probably why itís better suited for me, b/c youíre right, I struggle immensely with NC. Especially when my WW has been more receptive and open to being in my presence over the past few months. Iím sure as you know Plan B is absolute NC.

Originally Posted by Sandi2
So then, you send her an email, which IMHO, lacked something. Maybe b/c you have already said this stuff, in one way or another. How was this different from the other talks? I don't think it was. You labeled it Plan A, and basically, said the same stuff again.
I never shared with her exactly what I would need (NC with APs and honest) in a new MR succinctly. I also never presented a loving view of what it would be like to R where she wouldnít be shamed and judged as we worked towards forgiveness while rebuilding trust.

Originally Posted by Sandi2
You just want to win her back, and if one tactic doesn't do the job, you look for another one, and add your own version. All you've shown her is more of the same controlling man, and that cancels all your flowery promises about a future relationship. Like some other LBH's, you have not done the work on yourself, but you want her to trust you to be a better H after she gives up her affairs, etc.
I wholly disagree. I have done a tremendous amount of work on myself. I have made enormous strides in being a better husband, father, listener, communicator, and leader. I am grateful, less selfish, more generous, more compassionate. I am able to sense the feelings of others. I am AMOAFWL. Yes, I do want her to trust me to be a better H once she gives up the Aís. WW is a year behind me in doing the work. Can I trust her to come along and be a better W working with me to build a MR that never falls into this level of despair again?

Originally Posted by Sandi2
You've already given her a list showing divided assets, when you gave the Robx speech. It didn't create the desired results you were hoping to get, so on another occasion, you asked her what she thought about the list........ and you went into another R talk. If you ask her what she wants in the settlement, she's going to give you her default answer........"I don't know". So, what's the next step forward?

Well, you couldn't wait, so you had another R talk the day before Thanksgiving. That really was a short period of time!
The next step forward is to present the draft settlement.

Letís review the timeline:
May 4th: I give her the PuppyDogTails I will not live in an open MR speech late night at her place with no boundary to enforce. This was after S8 told me WW was texting OM3 all day and ignoring him and she was about to send me an email to divide assets.

September 27-29: W says she loves me at Retrouvaille but refuses to end contact with OM.

October 23rd: I give her the RobX speech and asset list after she clearly has little interest in keeping up with the Retrouvaille follow-up work.

November 9th: Iím ready to get on with it and ask if she has the asset list ready after I learn she was arranging a hookup with OM2. R talk occurs and she brings up the idea of dating me while the Aís continue.

November 12th: I send her the Plan A email after she spends the night at OM3ís.

November 28th: Thanksgiving R talk after she sends nude selfies to OM the night before. I ask if sheís ready to come with me and rebuild as stated in the email. I put D fully on the table as the lies continue.

As you can see, my actions and talks have been highly reactionary when I discovered something or my tolerance of bad behavior built up over a period of time.

I feel that I have been in Plan A for a good portion of the past year. So, I wouldnít say it was a short amount of time. She has been able to see how Iím a much better H in so many ways.

Neffer posted ďItís EnoughĒ on my thread before I gave her the RobX speech. That phrase hit home with me after all of the BS. Also, some very pointed posts from you, JoeJoe, LH, and others in recent months have helped restore my confidence, help me believe that I have value, deserve respect, and can stand up to my WW to share my feelings, wants, needs, and call her out on crap behavior.

Originally Posted by Sandi2
I think these affairs have hurt your male ego a lot. I'm sure it would hurt anyone to know their spouse has had an affair.
Youíre probably right. I am very competitive by nature. I often asked myself what do the OM give her that I wasnít able to. It hurt badly for a long time. I do realize these are affair downs and she will be the one that will hurt more in the long run if we donít R and she realizes the cruel way she chose to end our MR and destroy our family.

Originally Posted by Sandi2
I realize you are trying to reach through her fog, but whenever it becomes pressure.......you lose her. I don't know what it will take for you to finally see. You've been so hellbent on telling her everything you read about WW's, that you've missed getting it yourself.
I am shining a light back on the MR and trying to reach through the fog and help her see. I know the lighthouse doesnít go out to sea to pull a WW in. I just feel that she has not done any work to understand why she is making these choices. So, yes I am attempting to give her insight and the resources she needs to find her way. I think it behooves me to provide this to her. Perhaps one day she will listen to the audiobooks on infidelity or visit websites on affairs to truly figure herself out and learn about what she has been unable to escape. I get it, she doesnít want to hear any of it while she is WW. However, I feel I did a disservice if we D and I didnít try to point her towards what could help her beak free of her addiction.
Posted By: ovrrnbw Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 12/19/19 05:38 AM
You have an explanation for everything C. AMOAFWL doesn't pursue like this. The best thing you could do is go NC. It is statically the best way to get an ex back. You need a good friend who is a PUA to help you with some basics.

Soon enough I think she is going to be tired of this.
Posted By: unchien Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 12/19/19 06:51 AM
Originally Posted by curtis7
Originally Posted by Sandi2
I realize you are trying to reach through her fog, but whenever it becomes pressure.......you lose her. I don't know what it will take for you to finally see. You've been so hellbent on telling her everything you read about WW's, that you've missed getting it yourself.
I am shining a light back on the MR and trying to reach through the fog and help her see. I know the lighthouse doesnít go out to sea to pull a WW in. I just feel that she has not done any work to understand why she is making these choices. So, yes I am attempting to give her insight and the resources she needs to find her way. I think it behooves me to provide this to her. Perhaps one day she will listen to the audiobooks on infidelity or visit websites on affairs to truly figure herself out and learn about what she has been unable to escape. I get it, she doesnít want to hear any of it while she is WW. However, I feel I did a disservice if we D and I didnít try to point her towards what could help her beak free of her addiction.

I encourage you to read the above closely.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 12/19/19 10:56 AM
C,

Oh boy. No sense in critiquing everything you said so I just want touch on some points.

1. You are not a changed man in one year. You just aren't. It's a complete and total Work in Process. You indicated you're a better listener but you do not listen to us or you're wife.

2. She's told you she's not attracted to you. That doesn't mean physically (most likely). She's not attracted to you because you're weak, controlling, passive aggressive etc. These are things you should be working on.

3. Sending her links on affairs is something someone does when they first find out about the affair. Not someone who has been DBing for a year.
Posted By: IHCLACS Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 12/19/19 12:13 PM
Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
You have an explanation for everything C. AMOAFWL doesn't pursue like this. The best thing you could do is go NC. It is statically the best way to get an ex back. You need a good friend who is a PUA to help you with some basics.

Soon enough I think she is going to be tired of this.


Remember what I said about your actions are in your silence and your actions speak louder than words. You will learn AS YOU BECOME MORE COMFORTABLE WITH YOURSELF that the silence will hurt at first because of attachment, dependency, guilt, past mistakes, etc. But eventually you realize who you are again, what is right FOR YOU. WHAT YOUR STANDARDS AND CONDITIONS ARE AND WHAT YOU ARE WILLING TO COMPROMISE AND NOT COMPROMISE. You are slowly detaching and rebuilding worth in yourself. A person of worth and self respect doesn't keep pursuing people who take actions against them and what they stand for. If they want space. Give it to them. If they want a divorce. Grant it to them. If they no longer say they love you. BELIEVE THEM FOR THAT MOMENT. Let them go. You can't be in love with a memory. It is not now. It is was or has. Cut off all communications. Don't answer texts. Don't answer phone calls. Take 4-24 hrs to answer emails unless a priority. . Reject all breadcrumbing, indecisiveness on her part, manipulation, attempts to half heartedly reconcile, attempts to draw you back in, dates, etc. Remember how everyone here said. If she wants to reconcile, YOU WILL KNOW IT. Make her work to earn you trust through actions. There won't be any confusion. She has to choose fully and whole heartedly by her own volition and not by persuasion or manipulation. People are where they are because THEY CHOOSE TO BE THERE. I dont care if you are a rebellious teenager or a fully grown adult. We all make choices and decisions. Sometimes they are healthy. Sometimes they are not. God has to come before you. You have to come before you're XW and your kids have to come before both of you. Stop treating someone like a priority that treats you like an option.
^^^ This right here what ovrrnbw said.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 12/19/19 12:31 PM
Curtis, you are very frustrating! Look, I know you want to save your M. You DESPERATELY want to save it, just like so many of us do or did. The problem is you are so desperate that you are ignoring DR and all of the advice and going with your instincts. Unfortunately when dealing with a WAS and especially with a WW, your instincts are very wrong. Your WW has no respect for you and you think you can regain her respect by begging, pleading, threatening D, hanging onto her horse so she has to come over, placating her, getting angry with her, etc. You can't "nice" her back. You can't "mean" her back. You can't "negotiate" her back. None of it works. It just never does.

You may think you know better because you know your W better than we do, but we know WW's better than you do and right now she's not your W, she's a full-blown WW. If you want any chance at recon then you've got to quit listening to your instincts and start DB'ing. Give her time and space. Quit snooping.

Why do you keep snooping? You already know she's had multiple affairs, how in the world did you find out she's sending nude selfies when she doesn't even live with you? Because you were snooping. Give it up! You're separated, you can't control her. She can have guys over every night and share nudes all day without your consent. It's morally wrong but it's not illegal.

You fight for your M by not fighting. You fight for it by becoming the better option. You become the better option by making yourself strong and independent to the point that you don't need her or any other woman in your life to function and be happy. Go read or reread Steve's thread, and TXHubby's, and Joe's. They all started out being needy and desperate just like you. They didn't recon until AFTER they stopped that behavior and fully detached. Their W's all had to beg them to recon, and they did it grudgingly. That was how detached they were, and how detached you need to be.
Posted By: job Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 12/19/19 01:04 PM
Curtis,

Why are you here? Are you just using the posters as a sounding board or do you really and truly want to save your marriage and have your wife return to the marriage? If you want to try to save your marriage, then you need to open your ears and listen to what the posters have been advising you for many weeks. Open your eyes and look around you. What you've been doing isn't working...so try something different.

Snooping is ramping up your anxiety and obsession in trying to get her back. It's not going to work...the more you push, the more she's going to run in the opposite direction. Being needy and desperate isn't very becoming in your wife's eyes right now. You need to change the way you are dealing w/your life right now. You need to become the man she fell in love with who was a confident, self-assured and independent man. Show her that man again. Acknowledge the fact that she's got to have that time and space to figure things out.

The posters here have been where you are, myself included. The best thing you can do is let her go and have faith and hope that she will see the light....but she's not going to see the light as long as you are there. She needs to see and sense that you have moved forward w/your life. Moving forward doesn't necessarily mean dating, but it means living your life to the fullest each and every day. Making the changes that you need to make to be a better man and one that will shine throughout the day and night. When she senses that you are going on w/your life, that is when she'll begin to question herself and what she is doing and begin to see the new and improved your.

Curtis, time is precious...time doesn't stand still for any of us. It's important to use that time wisely and that means keeping the focus on you and your family and living your life as if she may not return. Continue to have faith and hope for those two things will help you each and every day...but you need to allow the man upstairs to work on your wife and stop taking the wheel back from him as he is still attempting to work on her.

Keep the focus on YOU!
Posted By: MrBrside Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 12/19/19 04:23 PM

I'll be honest and say from my perspective it sounds more like an infatuation.

Sandy nailed it with what she said before your reply - others have echoed my thoughts since your reply.

I'm very concious about coming across too hard - I read something last night ( may have been or on a Facebook group - cant remember ) about a guy who couldnt move on, kept on trying to convince her he was the right guy and then killed himself... Bad times so i don't want to come across at attacking..

But let me ask you this. What is your defenition of self respect ? - Do you feel you have self respect ? I can't recal what i wrote on my sitch about it, but i'm pretty sure one of the things that got me, when i snapped out of the LBS fog was how desperate i had become. I was deperate to save my family and everything we had. I loved my WW, i loved my family, but the cost of that love was a loss my dignity and self respect initially. I look back now and i know i'm not that guy. It wad this site and the DSO site that gave me a different insight.

Did you really become stronger in 2019 ? Look at all contributions to your posts... People are telling you the same thing OVER and OVER and OVER again.. The same people who have been through what you have, who want to help, but you ignore their advice.

Can i ask you 3 questions - and think about these answers..

Do you feel the posters on here respect you based on the replys / comments you are making ?

Do you believe you have self respect?

Do you believe WW repsects you ?

RESPECT - This is one of the main things Sandy talks about in her initial posts.

Yet you have made little progress in this area in the whole of 2019 - in my opinion.

Even your replys to all the posts come across as quiet "not my fault / i tried that but its not my fault / that didnt work"

I read your replys shaking my head again - its like you don't listen, are rarelly in the wrong and the victim - Maybe a bit harsh here, but i read your replys and thought "gosh this sounds like my WW - i.e justifies everything with emotion not logic, never her fault etc etc - and i consider her to have narsasisic tendanies...

You really do need to reflect on this and the vet replies - or you will continue to live in limbo for 2020.


Posted By: joejoe1 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 12/19/19 08:41 PM


Curt,

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm........................................I don't think we are cracking your code.........................................................................................

You are stuck in a loop. How do we get Curtis out of this loop.
Either Curtis is not reading our post and understanding them OR Curtis is not listening and actively applying the advice he has been given.

I have to be really harsh here. This is my soldier side coming out.

YOUR WIFE LEFT YOU BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T LISTEN TO HER, YOU WERE CONTROLLING, OBSESSIVE, AND PASSIVE/AGGRESSIVE.

Your replied to every person's post to explain why you are right, won't wrong, or have fixed whatever issue they called out===========OBSESSIVE

You are still snooping, even if it was three weeks ago, you have been knowing about not snooping for months=CONTROLLING

She's telling you she didn't won't to go to R-ville and she's don't won't the relationship. You are sending her information about being in a M=============NOT LISTENING.

How have you changed. You can try and convince yourself, but that won't fly here. We are here to tell you the truth. You WW is running from you and at this point, I can see why, you are not an attractive person. Actually you are very unattractive.

STOP BEING UNATTRACTIVE CURTIS PLEASE......This is my softer side.

Joejoe
Posted By: Tryhard Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 12/19/19 10:17 PM
Curtis , I feel for you dood . I know you would do anything you could to get things back to how they should be . You are only a year in and you have got a long road ahead . People here are on the other side of where you are and no matter how much we try to help , it wonít make sense .

If you have read DR , then you know the importance of baby steps and setting goals . You need to have them set out . No big ones like being back to before BD . Small ones like 1) she feels comfortable around me

1) a I am happy around her
b) I show my confidence
C) I am a leader , WITHOUT being controlling


If you love her , then you can take the steps that need to happen.

You can do it if you allow yourself .

I am not going to preach to you because I know how hard all of this is .

I know you can do it , become a success story
Posted By: IHCLACS Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 12/20/19 12:53 PM
Originally Posted by job
Curtis,

Why are you here?

Curtis, time is precious...time doesn't stand still for any of us. It's important to use that time wisely and that means keeping the focus on you and your family and living your life as if she may not return. Continue to have faith and hope for those two things will help you each and every day...but you need to allow the man upstairs to work on your wife and stop taking the wheel back from him as he is still attempting to work on her.

Keep the focus on YOU!


^^^^^ BINGO!!! Stop trying to get ahead of God. People have free will they can choose the sinful nature or his nature. They can have patience to allow God to work things out with his will and in his time and not ours this is something I'm learning to develop more patience in. Cuz I want you to think about this you are putting your will and your fixation on your ex-wife over everything else in your life when they have decided suddenly not to choose you. I have had a year of space from my ex-wife since we date and the only thing that I've chosen to make improvements on has been very little because I've been so fixated on her and my situation as I've watched her gradually change somewhat for the better but away from the marriage. the answers you come up with cycling over and over in your head again do matter and but eventually in the long run they don't matter the reason why is because you are squandering time when you could be focusing on your life and changing yourself I'm sure you've made a lot of great changes I've seen it in your post. Some days I make awesome change internally and externally and some days I just sit around feeling sorry for myself and then I get angry at myself and say why did I do that why did I waste my energy and procrastination capacity everyday.

Coming back to my point is for the last year I've been going round and round in my head with anxiety fluctuating between anger sadness realization epiphanies indifference, gain, happiness small contentments, resentments, powerplace pridefulness stubbornness sometimes the willingness to let go. It's all part of the growth process and you have to forgive yourself for it and be patient with yourself your life, your spouse and your soon-to-be ex-spouse. Curtis if you really love them for who they were who they are and who they want to be on their own free will and still not have it affect you? More importantly can you not be controlling of her. She feels controlled by you a lot of them do even mine I think? Mine once said to me months ago she said she finally feels like she has a voice. Or something to that effect. I said Lee realized anxiety in the dysfunction that I brought irritability anger the lack of communication and understanding. At this point it's got me really questioning in my head on whether we were really compatible? I've kind of Rewritten history myself since I've been alone. I know there were good times there I know what there was love there and I know that there was commonalities here but I also know that there were severe disconnects that developed to either because of her lack of communication with me or because of my lack of effort the process to understand. Sometimes we miss the forest for the trees in hindsight is 20/20. How hard is it for you to let her go? How is this attachment to her serving you? I bet it's someone of a hindrance on your well-being here and there not always but most of the time. More importantly how much of the stuff do you think that you're doing that everyone here is telling you that you're doing are you willing because you want to be a better person. We all have sides to us we have loving caring giving compassionate understanding attentiveness to us but we also have anxiety irritability anger unforgiveness resentment bitterness pridefulness lustfulness gluttony greed laziness. Curtis most of them are doing what they're doing because they feel controlled and as a result of it rebellious. Heres something unimaginable your ex wife is sleeping with three different guys right? you know it's sinful you know it stands against the marriage and you know that it's not of God ordained ways. Morally Incorrect and you know it. Do you still think you can be happy for her and those circumstances if she's happy? Do you still think you can love her even though you know she's making the wrong decisions? Do you think you can let her go to let her learn for herself? House silent do you think you can be to let her learn for herself? I've learned that God is silent in our lives and he lets us stay stuck in sin we choose it until we learn not to anymore.

Here is my self-admitted hypocrisy. I smoke cigarettes forgetful and patience I sometimes have an angry side I'm lost will and sometimes attached. I don't move or change fast enough because I let my emotions rule me instead of just doing what needs to be done consistent basis. the choice is more important than the outcome because without making those right choices we forever remain stuck. The positive or negative feelings we result from those choices are just that results. let her choices change you let the lack of her change you let your circumstances in your suffering change you use it as a catalyst to become more self-aware and move upward in action Mind and Spirit. Even then they are still in the dark. We have to leave them there it's their choice is there free will. Make your peace with where they are in life and who they are and let them go and forgive them for it. I have to get to work I'll add more later
Posted By: IHCLACS Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 12/20/19 01:29 PM
Originally Posted by joejoe1


Curt,

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm........................................I don't think we are cracking your code.........................................................................................

You are stuck in a loop. How do we get Curtis out of this loop.
Either Curtis is not reading our post and understanding them OR Curtis is not listening and actively applying the advice he has been given.

I have to be really harsh here. This is my soldier side coming out.

YOUR WIFE LEFT YOU BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T LISTEN TO HER, YOU WERE CONTROLLING, OBSESSIVE, AND PASSIVE/AGGRESSIVE.

Your replied to every person's post to explain why you are right, won't wrong, or have fixed whatever issue they called out===========OBSESSIVE

You are still snooping, even if it was three weeks ago, you have been knowing about not snooping for months=CONTROLLING

She's telling you she didn't won't to go to R-ville and she's don't won't the relationship. You are sending her information about being in a M=============NOT LISTENING.

How have you changed. You can try and convince yourself, but that won't fly here. We are here to tell you the truth. You WW is running from you and at this point, I can see why, you are not an attractive person. Actually you are very unattractive.

STOP BEING UNATTRACTIVE CURTIS PLEASE......This is my softer side.

Joejoe


JoeJoe is right in every aspect. Now you can GIVE THE APPEARANCES OF LETTING GO by going NC. In attempt to manipulate your W back. Try to reconcile, and be back to square 1 internally because you didn't actually make the changes. (They can smell this.) OR...YOU CAN ACTUALLY LET GO, HAVE IT BENEFIT YOU IN THE FORM OF CHANGE and be at peace with yourself. Alone and single. From my experience. People typically don't make changes, or don't have enough progression of those changes unless they are alone and single. This is what some refer to as. "Finding themselves." We have to be whole to be a healthy partner. I've noticed the only time most of us are typically whole is when we are single. Why? Because we have no one else to focus on but ourselves, all the good the bad and the ugly. There is no way we can change for anyone else unless its for ourselves, it doesn't last and it doesn't stick because of the shifting focus. Who you were didn't work, who they were or who they became didn't work. Or at best it worked with limitation.
Posted By: ovrrnbw Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 01/23/20 07:47 PM
When are we getting an update C? Whatcha been doin?
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 04/13/20 07:02 AM
Originally Posted by job
Curtis,

Why are you here? Are you just using the posters as a sounding board or do you really and truly want to save your marriage and have your wife return to the marriage? If you want to try to save your marriage, then you need to open your ears and listen to what the posters have been advising you for many weeks. Open your eyes and look around you. What you've been doing isn't working...so try something different.
I drafted the following response to this question back in December but felt it was unnecessary to post:

Job, good question. I initially came here to save my MR. Then a few months later when my W fell hard into WW, I lost hope. I kept posting to potentially provide insight to others on what doesnít work. Lately, there were a few positive signs where my W showed some interest in actually being around me or at least the family. W joined me at a few Xmas parties. We went and had a pretty good time. Took a few couples pictures in the photobooth that was setup. W got close and pressed her cheek against mine in one of them. We were among the last to leave the party.

I felt that things were trending in a better direction than they ever had since BD. Thought I had a realistic shot at R and becoming one of the rare success stories. If that does happen, it will show that the LBS should keep searching for what works and trust their gut. What worked for others certainly doesnít work for all. Who knows, perhaps I did a poor job of explaining things. If it doesnít work out, thatís okay, I will survive and Iím confident that I will meet someone in the future that will love and appreciate me for who Iíve become and not cheat on me.

There are so many posters here that love to criticize the LBS. I feel most have good intentions and are trying to recommend what has worked for others in the past and what prevents the LBS from getting hurt again. However, I think many like to pile on without understanding the details of the sitch. For instance, I laid out a synopsis of what happened over the course of 7 weeks during which 2 R talks transpired. The replies of several posters made it seem like these R talks were pressure applied by me almost back to back. Also, 3 weeks of no snooping is significant from where I was at previously. Many posters imply that I am still snooping. I have no intention of snooping again, but several people here donít choose to accept that.

Donít get me wrong, I think 2x4ís are needed on occasion. However, when the LBS receives 10 replies that are all basically saying the same thing it becomes excessive. I appreciate a few of the posters that can empathize with how difficult all of this is and actually offer words of encouragement.

A good portion of my sitch plays out like a soap opera and I thought some would get enjoyment of keeping up with the latest developments no matter how painful it might be for me. I used this forum to vent on occasion and release some of the pain and frustration. I can do that just as easily in my own private journal.

I have decided to refrain from posting on my sitch until a major development occurs. There is plenty of advice in my 7 threads thus far that I can read again to reinforce where I have gone astray and what the vets recommend. I plan to return and provide an update either when D is imminent or when my W has decided to R and I can move to the Piecing forum. So long for now.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 04/13/20 07:05 AM
The previous post was not intended to offend anyone. I value the majority of the input Iíve received here. It was just an indication of where I was at the time. This thread is about to reach its limit so I will start a new one for my next update.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistant Endurance (Part 7) - 04/13/20 07:21 AM
Link to Part 8:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2892115
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