Separated and facing divorce (Part 2)

[firemann]

Old thread: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2861188&page=1

[firemann]

Working on my financial affidavit this weekend.

Wife texted me today and let the dog out at my place (thinking I am going to have to part ways w the dog after the D) . Wife said on a group text to me and the kids - hey, hope youre having a good day. I took two of your caramels. I'm not sorry and I would do it again.

Texted back that I remembered they were her favorite (and they became mine too).

Probably one of the more nice texts from her in months, but I didn't start blowing up her phone. Inside, I am realizing that I just do not belong dating in general. I'm really starting to do the work of grieving this week and ending all of the innocent female meetups, beers, etc that has been filling the void. I stopped walking around grieving and started going through it (and it suuuucks)

I stopped feeling like I had to be the one to regain **her** trust this week after something sandi2 posted. Realized too that a lot of my anxiety has come from her blindsighting me this year: the BD, the EA, the S, and now, the D papers. I am thinking - wth is she going to do next? I am focused on GAL but this living in fear is no good.

Gonna focus on the kids this weekend and journal as we are supposed to get rain. I need to start working out regularly again.

[firemann]

Kind of a rough weekend - I got all of my finances together for financial affidavit. I just have to aggregate them together.
I test drove a few new cars and I rejoined a crossfit gym.

Spoke to the W this morning. We were both positive and synched up on the kids' schedule. She stated that her lawyer said that we could mediate however we want and if we wanted to drop everything and reunite, that's ok too. I stated that my lawyer said the same. I reiterated the divorce is not something I want, but also stated I didn't want to discuss before she went to work as this usually upset her.

I know this is unattractive pressuring - but I want to tell her "let's go try to talk to a therapist and see what we can salvage". As much distancing as I've done, I know this is still me holding on to the rope. I just wish I had some way to tell her - I still have some shreds of hope.

[Traveler]

Hi Firemann,

She stated that her lawyer said that we could mediate however we want and if we wanted to drop everything and reunite, that's ok too. I stated that my lawyer said the same.

That's validating.

I reiterated the divorce is not something I want, but also stated I didn't want to discuss before she went to work as this usually upset her. I just wish I had some way to tell her - I still have some shreds of hope.

Didn't you already do that? You responded to her temp check with "Divorce is not something I want" and did your own temp check on whether she wanted to join you in therapy earlier this week.

She stated she wanted to go just to learn how to improve communication.

You know the DB approach recommends therapy if and only if both partners have some level of commitment.

I am trying not to completely give up on my marriage but it's hard to be the only one with faith in it!

Do you feel you get to wave the "Faith in Marriage" card after an overnight OW and multiple "innocent" female meetups, one of which you say you're slowing down? Not that there's anything wrong with moving on.

Gonna focus on the kids this weekend

Oh, good, being an active dad is an awesome GAL activity. So are crossfit workouts!

[firemann]

OK cwarrior - maybe I am temp checking too much.

W and I met yesterday at a bank so we could endorse a check together from a joint account. We left and I had some time to kill. She asked what I was doing next and I said I was going to eat tacos. She got all quiet and rather then leaving, i asked if she wanted to join. She said yes!

Lunch was a little awkward but positive for the most part. She was telling me about her new part time job and how she was looking forward to a concert coming up. I told her with all the work she is doing - a concert seemed like it'd be fun. I was pretty happy during lunch as work was going well that day and the weather was perfect. I did notice something in her from across the table - she just seemed old and tired.Her face had this resting scowl. She asked if I test drove some new cars (I told my son I did previously) and I said yes, but havent decided on anything.

Went home and I wrapped up paperwork for the attorney. I ended up going through our cell bill and i came to find out she was talking to her EA all the way back until Sept. I originally thought is was January-March. Nope! SEPT! Unreal. She ended up calling me about our kids and picked up i was mad. I told her I discovered her EA was earlier than originally calculated and she apologized.

Weird thing was - I was ok. Definitely felt betrayal, but I was ok. We had some small talk and she said she'd like to talk about that with myself and a therapist. In that moment, I couldn't decide if she was telling me what I wanted to hear or maybe she was opening up. I started flashing back. I just remembered things like how she frequently scorned me for waking her up at 3am earlier this year when I was flooded with anxiety. I just started accepting things for the way they were. I couldn't believe sheput me through what she put me through this year.

I need to drop the rope. There are times I pray to forgive her and have some way of starting over. I need to NOT BE SO AFRAID OF THE D.

[ovrrnbw]

I am advising you to stay calm and detached when interacting with. Not everything she says will require immediate responses. If she is opening up a bit, let her talk, validate feelings, and listen!!

If she brings up talking with you, her, and the therapist again just slow play it and say "Yea maybe that would work" and see if she takes the lead.

Keep focusing on your 180's, worry about your side of the fence now Firemann! Stay positive.

[firemann]

Pretty great weekend.
* S12 left his backpack at sports practice on Thurs night and in it were 3 projects that were due the following day. W ripped him a new one for forgetting it. She txtd me and I told her - why don't you mesage the coaches and see if you can have one come in early to unlock the building? I can bring S12 there to pick it up and then take him to school.

Told her I will do anything to help the kids. I told her a few times to breathe and that we got this! She was absolutely amazed.i was amazed too.

I thought to myself - if this had happene da few years ago, I would have gone off on my W for not telling me he even brought a backpack to practice, that S12 should be responsible for it, after all, he's 12! I would have got mad she didn't say thanks for picking him up and would have just let her deal with the problem. What a jerk I was back then.

S12 works hard and forgetfullness happens. Anyway, the Coach came in early the next day and he turned his assignments in on time at school. Crisis averted!!
* W said txt'd she was going out Fri night. Told her - she had a long week and deserves to unwind. She said she wasn't sure where she was going, or with whom. I told her she should have a blast either way. i didn't mention i was going out too.
* Went out with 2 different sets of guy friends on Fri and Sat night.
* Leaned how to clone roses from cuttings! i have them situated in my computer room.
* Dad is out of the hospital and feeling great. Am planning a visit soon.
* Played softball yesterday w some friends. Had a blast. Went home and picked up my dog and brought him out to a brewery for a beer. A lot of pretty ladies were out yesterday and my dog is a chick magnet.
* W called yesterday asking about some Halloween decoration she lost. Told her I'd look for it. We were joking around for a while and I kept being super positive. Told her if I find it I'd drop it off. She said - will you ring the doorbell, and i said no, I will just lthrow it on the driveway.. She laughed. Told her to enjoy the awesome weather and that I needed to leave (no mention of my softball plans).

Short of all this - I was invited to go hiking over the weekend by a girl and i turned her down. I told her I am still repairing myself and just need to focus on being comfortable being alone. Been trying to kepep the road home paved and well lit. I picked up DB book again and started thinking about what kinds of things we did together when we were both happy in the relationship. I feel like when we talk, if we aren't nit picking eachother as to who screwed up when or rehashing the past....we actually have a lot of fun and laughs.

[Ready2Change]

* Leaned how to clone roses from cuttings! i have them situated in my computer room.

Grafting roses onto a desirable root system is also cool....

[Ready2Change]

Told her if I find it I'd drop it off. She said - will you ring the doorbell, and i said no, I will just l throw it on the driveway.. She laughed.

I love this. Humor is a great way to respond.

[ovrrnbw]

Told her I will do anything to help the kids. I told her a few times to breathe and that we got this! She was absolutely amazed.i was amazed too.

Nice job, firemann!

I thought to myself - if this had happene da few years ago, I would have gone off on my W for not telling me he even brought a backpack to practice, that S12 should be responsible for it, after all, he's 12! I would have got mad she didn't say thanks for picking him up and would have just let her deal with the problem. What a jerk I was back then.

As a former football coach I hope his coaches (or you) made him run a mile for forgetting his gear. Huge pet peeve of mine and a great opportunity to develop character and positive habits in young men. We all have to deal with the consequences. As a forgetful person, let's just say I'm in good shape!

Told her if I find it I'd drop it off. She said - will you ring the doorbell, and i said no, I will just lthrow it on the driveway.

Lol throw it up there like a newspaper!

[AnotherStander]

Great post FM! That's the way to do it

[firemann]

Some news - she mentioned this morning she'd like to talk to a therapist about learning how to communicate better as parents for our children. I had the name of a recommended therapist and made an appointment for later on in the week. We are going to try a few sessions to see if we can improve things.

I'm trying to keep my repair work thoughts in check and remain detached.

[firemann]

Went to a Solutions Focused therapist and he was awesome. W doesn't have enough motivation to do marital recovery work yet. The therapist asked on a scale of 1-10 (10 being the highest) how motivated we were to work on the marriage. I said 8, and she said 1.

He advised against doing recovery work, structure our separation better ( I commented that it couldn't be more unstructured), and try to have weekly business meetings. He also stated that she's harboring a lot of long term pain/resentment that isn't healthy to hold on to. She hasn't been happy for a very long time.

I feel a lot of our issues have just been reactions to negative behaviors. I spent a lot of time things - how did we really get here **originally**. We've spent countless time going around the EA -> BD -> flooding/arguing-> Separation -> dating/jealousy

What's sticking in my mind the most: I think she finally became exhausted by our lack of connection and her attempts to resolve it (which fell on deaf ears).

[unchien]

FM -

I think it's very positive to work together with her to be better co-parents, even if you aren't working on the MR. My W and I had (and still have) serious problems conducting our co-parenting relationship, and the sessions we have had have been invaluable. Still a work in progress.

Your therapist sounds awesome. His advice about no recovery work right now is golden. If your W has a lot of resentment and is at a 1/10, it will only be counter-productive. If you keep going to the sessions, R talk may periodically come up, and you will be tempted to dive in earnestly. Remember the approach you are taking now - take a back seat, just be an awesome dad and co-parent as best as you can and keep working on yourself. Your W's resentment is something she is going to have to deal with and manage on her own. You can't fix it.

[ovrrnbw]

Hhhmmm, I think the therapy may have been just for the opportunity for her to squash you by saying she has an interest level of 1. Since yours was an 8, she knows you're still interested.

I'd let her go to therapy by herself.

It cant be that hard to communicate over the kids, prolly more a matter of can you get along when doing it.

[firemann]

Journaling up -

I'm just feeling incredibly frustrated.

W came over to talk kids schedule and I slipped into a R talk. She mentioned that she's going away for a weekend on the 15th - and rather than wish her a good time, I started asking where, with who etc? I reiterated she still has a place in our home. She left not wanting to talk about the relationship and I felt like I was slipping into a depression! Her living a few houses down is not a good thing. I am thinking we coordinate the kids schedule via email for a while as it'll allow me to more carefully construct responses. I just feel like a failure whenever I talk to her.

I went for a run, cleaned out my garage and met with S12 who stated he'd spend more time here if I were positive and didn't keep beer in the fridge. I agreed and he said lets talk more during the week. D15 is still not answering calls and texts. Heard from one of her best friend's parents that she's just hurting a lot from us separating and me having a perceived girlfriend. I'm going to try focusing more on the kids as advised. Small steps.

This waiting for the WW to come around some day is incredibly difficult. She actually voiced today she is angry she had to move out of her own house and has no idea where she's going to be living in March when her current place is no longer an option. She's mad I moved on so quickly too. I reminded her she was the one who had an EA for 7 months beforehand (again, failed to validate her). She replies - there you go again, always making yourself to be the fn victim.

Going to re-read some of sandi's posts and grow a pair.

[firemann]

Read a bunch of sandi2's posts and have some renewed faith in myself. Objectively, a lot of her staments have shown zero remorse for her actions. She has no respect for me and, from what I've seen, I am liitle more than a missing paycheck.

* Learn validation without eliciting an emotional response.
* Try to use email to coordinate kids until I can stand on my own 2 feet in a conversation with her without losing my backbone. I'd like to say this is a boundary.
* GAL, GAL, GAL. Actually **do** some new things this week.
* S12 said seeing beer in the fridge turns him away. I emptied the 3 remaining bottles and told him a promise not to have any more in house.

I need to apply some tough love.

[Ready2Change]

* Try to use email to coordinate kids until I can stand on my own 2 feet in a conversation with her without losing my backbone. I'd like to say this is a boundary.

I initiated "Primary Communication by Email".

One of the best things I did.

Draft up an email.
Send it.
Send her a text:"I sent you an email"


Some helpful phrases:

"Help reduce confusion"
"I believe it is best for us to communicate via Email."
"Keep it about the kids"
"Negotiate exceptions to standard parenting schedule"


You can always run emails past us for input BEFORE sending/responding.....

[ovrrnbw]

Read a bunch of sandi2's posts and have some renewed faith in myself. Objectively, a lot of her staments have shown zero remorse for her actions. She has no respect for me and, from what I've seen, I am liitle more than a missing paycheck.

* Learn validation without eliciting an emotional response.
* Try to use email to coordinate kids until I can stand on my own 2 feet in a conversation with her without losing my backbone. I'd like to say this is a boundary.
* GAL, GAL, GAL. Actually **do** some new things this week.
* S12 said seeing beer in the fridge turns him away. I emptied the 3 remaining bottles and told him a promise not to have any more in house.

I need to apply some tough love.

Good post.

[DonH]

S12 said seeing beer in the fridge turns him away. I emptied the 3 remaining bottles and told him a promise not to have any more in house.

What's that about? Something just strikes that as "off" to me. Is there a history of alcoholism with you or his mom or someone in his life? Why would simply seeing beer in a refrigerator - and evidently only 3 bottles on top of it - turn a 12 year old away. I don't get it - at least in the absence of some other history that involves alcohol abuse. Or was this just an excuse? If so, you'll soon find out if he comes up with something else.

[firemann]

S12 said seeing beer in the fridge turns him away. I emptied the 3 remaining bottles and told him a promise not to have any more in house.

What's that about? Something just strikes that as "off" to me. Is there a history of alcoholism with you or his mom or someone in his life? Why would simply seeing beer in a refrigerator - and evidently only 3 bottles on top of it - turn a 12 year old away. I don't get it - at least in the absence of some other history that involves alcohol abuse. Or was this just an excuse? If so, you'll soon find out if he comes up with something else.

In February, I promised not to drink anymore. In the past few months, I've had a six pack in the fridge occassionally. We spoke about his comfort level in spending time with me and it just seemed alcohol in general really really turned him off. I renewed my promise to keep alcohol out of the house.

[AnotherStander]

Seems like a minor offense but if you made a promise to S12 I'd say it's important to keep it.

[firemann]

Totally agreed. I believe the WW is using alcohol as a slant to get custody of the kids.

In July, she stated she wanted them 100% of the school year to be with her. The school year started in Sept and she has had them spending nights with her full time without my consent.

As soon as I started seeing someone else, the WW became even more bitter and started hording the kids even more. She stated the kids were uncomfortable due to alcohol and the fact I got called into work and couldn't be home on time (happend 1x and they ended up staying with WW).

I think it's moving fwd and Dad finding someone new that she's angry about. She also stands to get more child support if she has them 100% of the time. My lawyer knows all this and is working on it.

Makes me wonder what she is telling the kids at her place.

I thought S12 seeing beer in the fridge was minor too but I must keep my word.

[firemann]

Went to our mediation orientation session yesterday. We actually sat together (probably the only people there that did) and watched a few videos on the process. A few times I squeezed her hand. I often times just cannot believe we are at this stage. I asked her if she ever thought people met new SO's there - she started laughing. A lot of sad faces in dress clothes there but we stayed together and got through with it.

My anxiety is really coming back strong but for once, I am not jumping on to dating sites looking for a quick fix. I am waking up every 90 mins again throughout the night.

Seems having someone spend a single night across the street from them at my place really set all of this into motion. I feel that this event was communicated to my kids by the W and just made this divorce process "real" for them. D15 is definitely heartbroken and has told her friends - Dad has a girlfriend. I wouldn't say I do, and sometimes I just feel like telling my W "am I to just wait on the front porch with the dog hoping someday you guys come home??" The wife's spin is that alcohol is preventing the kids from coming home...my stance is that they don't want anything to do with Dad and some potential new person.

I am trying to come up with a way to communicate w my wife that I can effectively co-parent and that a 50/50 split would be best. She stated yesterday that she wants a split but is more inclined to give the kids whatever they want, and that currently means staying with her full time.

I was thinking of seeing if we can try the split out for a month or so and somehow prove to them this will work. Maybe have a cash penalty if I screw up as money seems to be her only desire from me.

Ended up taking S12 to dinner and Target. Told the W our plans and asked if she needed anything. Ended up dropping off a salad as she was working last evening. She said it was very much appreciated.

Going to play hockey tonight at the YMCA. I'm also looking for a used vehicle as my 15 year old Honda is on its last legs. Car dealers have been emailed as of this morning!!

[ovrrnbw]

Seems having someone spend a single night across the street from them at my place really set all of this into motion.

That certainly pushed things the wrong way, but no it was not the one thing that caused this. There were many. She had an affair, right? Emotional or physical? I can't remember. Did she mention that to the kids? Or is she just throwing you under the bus?

15 is definitely heartbroken and has told her friends - Dad has a girlfriend. I wouldn't say I do,

Are you still seeing that gal?

Ended up dropping off a salad as she was working last evening. She said it was very much appreciated.

Pursuit. I thought you were going LRT. I'm not mad at you about it, I pursued a lot before finally stopping so I get it.

Good job on the GAL and I hope you find a good deal on a car.

[Traveler]

I am trying to come up with a way to communicate w my wife that I can effectively co-parent and that a 50/50 split would be best. She stated yesterday that she wants a split but is more inclined to give the kids whatever they want, and that currently means staying with her full time.

Why are your wife and kids determining your custody schedule for the 12 y/o again?

[firemann]

She had an EA for 7 months (starting in Sept 2018) and stated via text to an ex-boyfriend that it turned into a PA once night in Dec. She admitted the EA but denied to PA saying it was just innuendo talk to the ex-BF.

When the gal stayed over, she arrived at 9pm and left at 6am. W is saying the kids saw it that morning and became upset. No way my kids saw her car in the driveway because they don't wake up before 1030am on weekends.

I suspect the W saw the car the next morning and told the kids, because she was LIVID. I was served papers 4 days later.

I've gone out randomly with this gal, but nothing serious and she hasn't stayed over since. I've told her I am still hung up on my ex. She gets it and is giving me a lot of space.

I'm trying to LRT. Most times I can maintain silence but it's almost impossible for me not to talk R.

[firemann]

I am trying to come up with a way to communicate w my wife that I can effectively co-parent and that a 50/50 split would be best. She stated yesterday that she wants a split but is more inclined to give the kids whatever they want, and that currently means staying with her full time.

Why are your wife and kids determining your custody schedule for the 12 y/o again?

I am saying I want the kids oneweek, and she'd have them the next. She is saying the kids want to be with her 100% of the time.

[unchien]

If the kids are supposed to decide what they want and what is best for them, would you also let them eat McDonald’s every day? Or skip school?

[firemann]

Good point. We are going to try to talk before our child custody mediation session and I might use this word for word, unchien.

I found this awesome quote from Steve85 this week:

Learn to be detached. The goal is to get to a place emotionally where she can come to you and say "Last night I had a hot lesbian orgy with 6 other women." And you go, "oh, okay. Hey where did I put the remote?"

Detachment is about being happy, fulfilled, pleased internally, regardless of her crazy. Work on it. It is freeing. And it may have the side benefit of having a huge effect on her in a positive way

The past few days I have been doing real with maintaining this level. Using email as prmary communication helps too.

[AnotherStander]

I am trying to come up with a way to communicate w my wife that I can effectively co-parent and that a 50/50 split would be best. She stated yesterday that she wants a split but is more inclined to give the kids whatever they want, and that currently means staying with her full time.

Why are your wife and kids determining your custody schedule for the 12 y/o again?

I am saying I want the kids oneweek, and she'd have them the next. She is saying the kids want to be with her 100% of the time.

They're 15 and 12, right? Have you talked to them about this? I'm kind of surprised you are stating what your W said they want while apparently not knowing yourself. In many states at those ages they would legally be allowed to instruct the court as to who they want to stay with, and it does weigh heavily in the judge's decision. Your W could very well be coaching them like crazy right now and influencing their decision. If you don't talk to them then it may be to your detriment as far as visitation goes.

[firemann]

Good point, AS. The daughter is joining me tonight at the fire station as she doesn’t have school tomorrow. I’m going to try to speak to her and find out where she is at mentally with all of this. I did talk to my son yesterday: he is in the gym so much it’s insane. I asked both of them to hang last night; daughter had plans and son wanted to just do nothing and relax.

Wife text me twice - once yesterday to talk about my son’s gym schedule and again today to tell me she was happy I was spending time with my daughter. The gym schedule convo I just said to email me what she needed as I was really busy. First time in a while I didn’t create a R talk.

I miss all 3 of them...

[firemann]

One thing I wanna add - what's been some keys to detachment (aside from not living across the street from eachother when you separate)?? Most times I am keeping busy with GAL and working out, but man, sometimes I don't see her car in the driveway and my mind starts spinning. I try to start focusing on something else (I just cleaned out my gas grill).

I ran into her last week and she said she's been frequenting a brewery about 45 minutes from here. I thought to myself - that's odd, because you didn't love frequenting them when we were together and you sure didn't like me to go to them w my friends. I responded back - that brewery is great, hope you had a blast.

I actually started closing the shades in my windows that face her side of the street so I don't have to see if she's home or not.

It's just kind of an annoying feeling

[firemann]

Custody mediation went great. We had a spirit of collaboration between us and agreed the kids would slowly start staying with me more. I agreed to make an appointment with D5's therapist and have a few sessions w him and then w my daughter.

We are reconvening with the mediator in January. I asked about scheduling sooner if need be, should we need to. She said either one of us could call her and cancel mediation, and then we'd get a court date for custody.

At one point our mediator just looked at us and said, I really dont understand why you guys are here. She said she sensed no tension. My wife satted just being around me makes her very anxious and I left it at that.

[firemann]

Journaling and seeking some advice

* I made an appointment with D15's therapist on the advice of the mediator. I was to get some feedback on the therapist as to how best help my daughter cope. We are meeting later today
* Told my W this, and she stated she wanted to have the family collectively discuss the kids staying over Saturday night. I went over to the W house after work. They seemed fine with it (not excited nor upset by it). I told them I am very excited to have them stay over.
* I was leaving W house and she stated she'd like me to join them for Thanksgiving. Inside, I couldn't believe it and almost collapsed in joy. I told her "I will think about it but I do want to see the kids that day. Thank you for the offer". She stated she was having some friends over to join them too, a few of whom I know (one is actually a girl from Crossfit that BD'd her husband about 6 months before my W did).
* Told my new gal I wanted some space, that I have some codependency things I am working out and us seeing eachother isn't a good idea. I am re-reading NMMNG. I need to be fine being alone without female validation and I am not there yet.

Advice sought:
* Thinking I go to W house for Thanksgiving for a while, but say I have other plans and leave a little early. I am really missing my kids and dont want to upset them.
* W birthday is 2 days before Thanksgiving. Should I just send a text? Do nothing?

[AnotherStander]

Journaling and seeking some advice

* I made an appointment with D15's therapist on the advice of the mediator. I was to get some feedback on the therapist as to how best help my daughter cope. We are meeting later today
* Told my W this, and she stated she wanted to have the family collectively discuss the kids staying over Saturday night. I went over to the W house after work. They seemed fine with it (not excited nor upset by it). I told them I am very excited to have them stay over.
* I was leaving W house and she stated she'd like me to join them for Thanksgiving. Inside, I couldn't believe it and almost collapsed in joy. I told her "I will think about it but I do want to see the kids that day. Thank you for the offer". She stated she was having some friends over to join them too, a few of whom I know (one is actually a girl from Crossfit that BD'd her husband about 6 months before my W did).
* Told my new gal I wanted some space, that I have some codependency things I am working out and us seeing eachother isn't a good idea. I am re-reading NMMNG. I need to be fine being alone without female validation and I am not there yet.

^^^GReat stuff FM, all handled really well!

* Thinking I go to W house for Thanksgiving for a while, but say I have other plans and leave a little early. I am really missing my kids and dont want to upset them.

Sounds like an excellent plan.

* W birthday is 2 days before Thanksgiving. Should I just send a text? Do nothing?

I think sending a text is fine. It's the polite thing to do whether she reciprocates or not. Also I would suggest that you take your kids shopping to get her something, have them do the wrapping and have them give her the present/ presents.

[ovrrnbw]

I love that last post.

Why not spend as much time with the kids as possible? Thanksgiving GAL is only for 20-something binge drinkers! Haha.

I'm really happy to read this update.

I believe in not recognizing the birthday as she: 1. Had an affair 2. You are in LRT and I think it is pursuit.

Maybe just tell the kids to tell her happy bday from you?? I'm not sure really.

[firemann]

Journaling:
* Weekend went great. D15 was supposed to stay overnight Saturday but ditched me without reason. Had dinner with S12 and dinner and ice cream with both kids last night. I took them to Target after and let them buy essentials and a gift for their Mom. I remained upbeat and positive and asked a lot of questions, none of which were D or S related.I'm making an appointment w D15's therapist to have a joint session w her and myself.
* Got a sweet deal on a used car. This is my first new vehicle in about 16 years.
* W came over Sunday to discuss the week again pretty much unannounced. I told her I was just about to leave to run errands. We chatted for a bit and she said she was going out that evening. I actually said - great, have a great time and tell the kids I am home. They ended up coming over for dinner (as previously stated)
* W further mentioned that the lady who used to be her current roommate's roommate broke up with her fiance and is moving back in. She's seriously easy on the eyes too. My response was - wait WHAT?! She's SINGLE?! Holy cow!!!!
W just stared at me. I told her, well, if she's really hard up for a room, give her my number. W said, ok yeah sure. For the first time in forever, I felt pretty darn good. I went from being this discarded dude, to a single guy with a great job, a house, who works out and now has a new car. I actually felt bad for this other woman for her breakup. Told the W to have a blast and that I was tired from going out hard Fri night.

[firemann]

Journaling:
* W texted me today to say her stove was out and she had to cook dinner for S12's team. Let the txt sit for a few hours as I was busy at work. As much as I wanted to say, buy them takeout, I let her use mine this afternoon. She was very appreciative and actually cooked me dinner (first time since last January).
* W texted me a few hours later and commented D15 wanted to go to fire dept training tonight. Said yes, she could join me. She said D15 has always liked to do things on her own terms. I reminded her it took her almost a year to potty train.
* W texted me a few hours after that and asked about my Dad. I didn't reply - as this is the most normal she's been to me in months. Sandi always said to be extremely leary of the WW when they start being nice. I suspect my W living arrangements becoming more difficult has her thinking twice about pushing for a D. She has to know my lawyer is going to be responding to her divorce filing in the next day or so too.

I am starting to get a lot of anxiety whenever she texts me, probably because of her frequent history of broadsiding me frequent this year with BD's. I thanked her for dinner by sending an email and not use a txt.

Going to a wine tasting/museum gallery event after work tomorrow for an hour. I need to get some ideas on decorating my house once the D goes through. Scheduled my next crossfit class for next Thurs night too. I am sore AF from my last CrossFit class.

[AnotherStander]

As much as I wanted to say, buy them takeout, I let her use mine this afternoon.

Nothing wrong with stuff like this as long as you maintain zero expectations!

* W texted me a few hours after that and asked about my Dad. I didn't reply - as this is the most normal she's been to me in months. Sandi always said to be extremely leary of the WW when they start being nice. I suspect my W living arrangements becoming more difficult has her thinking twice about pushing for a D. She has to know my lawyer is going to be responding to her divorce filing in the next day or so too.

I get it! I used to get really paranoid when my XW would be overly nice too, it's like you're just waiting for the other shoe to drop. But sometimes they're just in a "nice" mood, it may not be anything nefarious. So enjoy it when she's nice and don't be surprised when she gets cold and distant again, it's normal for them to pull you in and push you away.

Scheduled my next crossfit class for next Thurs night too. I am sore AF from my last CrossFit class.

Welcome to xfit! I've been doing it over 3 years and still get sore on some of the workouts. Lots of variety in the workouts, definitely keeps your body from settling into a groove!

[firemann]

Journaling:

* W is wanting to move from the place she is renting and get her own place. I think not living on the same street will be a good thing, but it started making me wonder if I wanted to sell the house or not. It's good to have options.
* Went to a concert out of town this past Sunday and my W ended up coming over to get more dog food from the garage without my consent. She ended up snooping through my bedroom (in effort to find a pair of pajamas she was missing, so she said). She ended up finding an adult novelty item I purchased online, and another women's pajamas in one of my drawers. Sent a text saying we needed to talk. We talked. Both things upset her and I said - 1) we are separated and I can purchase whatever I want 2) why the F where you in my bedroom w/o my consent? She said she was just amazed how fast I seemed to move on. I felt like saying: I run the dog every morning at 615am and listen to self help/repair videos while doing that, I chat on this forum, I've read 5 books on divorce recovery, and I have a good bunch of friends that have listened to me process all the pain this year. Instead, I said, things will all work out eventually.

This being said - I can't say I am wanting to see her for Thanksgiving and tomorrow is her birthday.

* She text me today and asked me to bring my son his lunch at school as he forgot it. Told her I'd make one and take it to him. She replied back and said she had to buy new bedroom furniture. Replied: that sounds exciting. She said, its really tough as she couldn't afford it and had to finance it over 4 years. Replied: I understand. This separation is extremely difficult. She replied back: I don't think you do, especially since Christmas is coming, but whatever. I told her: the holidays just seem to amplify all the difficult feelings. I am feeling I am getting good at validation! At first I didn't understand validation but now I see, one of it's chief benefits is to prevent you from getting sucked into their world. I am still also feeling like to her, I am NOTHING more than a missing paycheck.
* W did mention she has begun dating too. This, to be honest, hearing that was like a kick to the balls. I actually mustered up the strength to say, I think its good to get out there and just enjoy herself. She mentioned I was doing that too. I wanted to say: the girl I went to the concert with and I had an amazing time. We drove 3 hours to the venue and just talked, we had an amazing dinner before the show, she bought me 2 concert shirts and I bought 2 rounds of beers. We sang, and laughed and man, it was just amazing. We held hands leaving the venue. It's absolutely amazing to have the respect of a woman again. She said it was the best date she has went on in her life. If you get a chance to see TOOL live in concert, please do so. OMG what a show.

The experience left me thinking something my Dad said about my ex and I: Love should not be that hard. I appreciate all you are trying to do son, but love should not be that hard.

[rooskers]

At first I didn't understand validation but now I see, one of it's chief benefits is to prevent you from getting sucked into their world.

I agree completely.

[ovrrnbw]

Firemann, how ya doin?

I think your W dating is her reaction to your "dating".

I'm torn as to whether you getting out there and seeing other women is helping or hurting you. Your W obviously cares what you're up to, or she wouldn't be discussing your dating or snooping through your room. You can do what you want, but what's the deal with the pajamas you're hanging on to?

I think you really need to come up with a plan and stick to it. You've been back and forth from LRT, to "dating", to standing, to pursuing. Let's figure out what you really want and go from there.

I still think you are learning and growing a lot BTW, but I'm not sure what direction you're wanting to go and it's confusing me.

[AnotherStander]

She ended up finding an adult novelty item I purchased online, and another women's pajamas in one of my drawers. Sent a text saying we needed to talk. We talked. Both things upset her and I said - 1) we are separated and I can purchase whatever I want 2) why the F where you in my bedroom w/o my consent? She said she was just amazed how fast I seemed to move on.

Well she certainly avoided your questions didn't she! I'd be inclined to change the locks. Last thing you want is her "accidentally" walking in while you are entertaining a lady.

This being said - I can't say I am wanting to see her for Thanksgiving and tomorrow is her birthday.

Then don't. Is someone twisting your arm?

She replied back and said she had to buy new bedroom furniture. Replied: that sounds exciting. She said, its really tough as she couldn't afford it and had to finance it over 4 years. Replied: I understand. This separation is extremely difficult. She replied back: I don't think you do, especially since Christmas is coming, but whatever. I told her: the holidays just seem to amplify all the difficult feelings. I am feeling I am getting good at validation!

You are indeed, short and to the point but they are validating comments so it keeps things nice and neutral. Good job!

At first I didn't understand validation but now I see, one of it's chief benefits is to prevent you from getting sucked into their world.

EXACTLY! Plus it helps her to feel like you are listening to her and not just dismissing her.

* W did mention she has begun dating too.

Of course! She's upset that you are moving on so quickly, but it's perfectly fine for her to do so. WAS's are amazing.

The experience left me thinking something my Dad said about my ex and I: Love should not be that hard. I appreciate all you are trying to do son, but love should not be that hard.

Love can be hard to maintain, and it's important that BOTH parties do their part to keep it alive. We are all here because we AND our spouses let it slip away, and unfortunately our spouses decided to quit rather than put any effort in to rekindle it.

[firemann]

Firemann, how ya doin?

I think your W dating is her reaction to your "dating".

I'm torn as to whether you getting out there and seeing other women is helping or hurting you. Your W obviously cares what you're up to, or she wouldn't be discussing your dating or snooping through your room. You can do what you want, but what's the deal with the pajamas you're hanging on to?

I think you really need to come up with a plan and stick to it. You've been back and forth from LRT, to "dating", to standing, to pursuing. Let's figure out what you really want and go from there.

I still think you are learning and growing a lot BTW, but I'm not sure what direction you're wanting to go and it's confusing me.

So, I've been only seeing one girl every 7-10 days or so. She brought PJ's over once and left them. I put them in a drawer. If I thought I had a remote shot with getting back together with my wife, I'd be all in, but she's never expressed interest even once directly (and maybe directly is the key word here). She wont date me, won't go to a brewery with me, wont sit on the porch to talk, but she will do that with someone else other than me. It's like, when LRT is in effect, we are both living parallel lives - but the second another car is in the driveay or someones PJ's are in a drawer, that becomes a huge issue as to why we can no longer reconcile. It's like she doesn't want to end things...she wants ME to create a reason for her to run away. Am I to wait indefinitely for her to wake up? F No. I am not her plan B. She wants to be gone? Enjoy the lifestyle that comes with it. She doesn't seem to want to grasp that.

[ovrrnbw]

Has your W filed?

You put ammo in your W's gun by seeing this lady, having her over, and storing her PJs. If your W is pissed and says that to your kids, she's not lying. Now I know she cheated too but does that make it OK to you?

There's no way you're over your W so dating is strictly to fill sexual needs and make you feel desired right?

..she wants ME to create a reason for her to run away

Right. Why give her that?

Why not show her a strong, principled man who is her best possible option?

[firemann]

Yep - she has filed. I agree I’m not over her. I do really enjoy spending time with this new person, but the past few days , I’ve noticed she’s not completely healed from her last R either. She and I did spend Thanksgiving together and went out the last few days. Objectively thinking, I feel like I need to be more comfortable being on my own and start each day asking what do I need to make myself happy?

I’ve been doing really well with LRT. I didn’t text her on her birthday nor on Thanksgiving.

W did ask yesterday about whether we should get the kids Christmas gifts together or separate. I also realized yesterday that we were 6 months separated as of 12/1. Both made me really emotional and didn’t respond to her.

Today, she sent me this:

Ok. Since you aren’t communicating with me about Christmas, I will go ahead and start getting a few things for them. Also, now that you are staying with GF a lot, maybe you can move in with her so the kids and I can have their home back. Last thing, can you please get S12 tomorrow night and Thursday night from either xyz or the gym? Not sure which, yet, but I will let you know. Please at least let me know you got this.

I replied back that I could get S12 and that I was thinking about Christmas and let her know something ASAP. I didn’t touch her little GF jab.

I **wanted** to say: I really feel like you just want your old life back but without me in it. I know you’re hurting, but I feel like nothing more than a missing paycheck to you. When you separated from me and moved out, you discarded me as a husband and you gave up your right to live in our home.

[ovrrnbw]

Firemann,

I feel your pain. I was there last year.

I think her points are legitimate and fair. It doesn't seem she is being mean either so that's good.

If you were on an even keel and showed her some consistency I think that would help. You having this lady around hurts your chance with your W in my opinion. Your W wanting to be "home" would be a great thing if this gal you're seeing was not in the picture. By not responding to that text I think you hurt rather than helped the sitch. That was a little opportunity for you to do something positive together with your W. Who knows if that would have been a good stepping stone or nothing at all but it wouldn't have been negative. I heard Michele on a podcast say "Is the thing I'm about to say (or do) going to help or hurt my situation"? Think about your responses that way.

That response you wanted to say is just vindictive. She hurt you so you'll hurt her. Do you remember the chapter "It takes One to Tango"? You can start positive changes in her if you decide to change your interactions. Don't show her your pain. Work on your pain in your time and keep it there

Try being detached a little more, and push through your emotions to do the right thing. I hope that doesn't come off as too cold, you're a good guy and you can get through this.

[firemann]

Not cold at all, ovrrnbw. I didn't respond to the text because I could get to a non-emotional state over it. I did mention today that I would let her know something about Christmas.

I agree my response was vindictive. I am still mad she snooped through my bedroom stuff.

I wish I could somehow eloquently say to her that it's evident she wants to come back home. I wish we could somehow work towards that, but that's persuit....

[AnotherStander]

I think her points are legitimate and fair. It doesn't seem she is being mean either so that's good.

You don't think so? I think she's being quite mean and petty. Examples:

Replied: I understand. This separation is extremely difficult. She replied back: I don't think you do, especially since Christmas is coming, but whatever.

He validates, she throws it in his face.

Ok. Since you aren’t communicating with me about Christmas, I will go ahead and start getting a few things for them.

Snotty, vindictive reply less than 24 hours after she sent the original text.

Also, now that you are staying with GF a lot, maybe you can move in with her so the kids and I can have their home back.

She snoops through his drawers, finds some mystery pajamas and instantly accuses him of "staying with GF a lot" when she doesn't know anything at all. And move in with her? Really? So that the kids and her adulterous a$$ can move back into the house? Funny how when she has an affair it's perfectly fine and just her moving on to a "better life". But he has someone over and suddenly he's scum of the earth and needs to vacate the family home. I think she's being a whiny, entitled brat. Now I'm not saying he should be engaging in an affair himself, I do agree that if he's standing for his M that dating should be set aside for now. But I don't think his W is being "fair" at all.

[ovrrnbw]

AS,

I think her points about going through all this around the holidays is tough and so is trying to figure out to get the kids' gifts together or separately.

As for the text, waiting 24 hours/1 day (whichever it was) seems a little weird. If I don't get a text back the same day I take that as a bad sign, but everyone has a different dynamic there. I know Firemann was hurting but I think he could have responded sooner and just made a choice. I'm not in his shoes though and I don't know all the thoughts and pain he was going through either.

I do agree with you in regards to the snotty reply and the snooping and I'm not sure what I was speaking to. I agree that she is brushing her misdeeds aside to throw his misdeeds in his face.

Firemann, I don't mean to hijack your thread. I just relate to your story and want to help. Hope you're doing well buddy.

[firemann]

It's all good, ovrrnbw. I think going dark for her birthday and Thanksgiving along with not being home a lot really made her wonder what the heck I was doing.

W is catching on that primary communication is by email only. She sent me something today asking if she could send the kids over tonight. I told her i would absolutely love to see them!

I ended up reconnecting with one of my aunts. Her husband was the closest male figure to me growing up, was 7 years older than me and ended up dying of cancer 3 years ago. She and I had a great talk. She advised me that if I did start dating, not to do anything serious and give myself time to heal (sounds familiar right). She said it's one thing to go out and have fun, but spending nights together is just too soon. I am going to try to see a lot less of this new gal and explain to her that I need to royally slow things down. I really dont want to end up hurting her.

As liberating as it is being alone, it does get lonely. I am on the codependent spectrum and do have a fear of being alone. I am doing better with learning to relax (reading, walking, watching tv). Been working out a lot and, despite not getting a lot of feedback from the kids, I do txt them daily saying I love them. I really have to think not to persue my wife, but I've been doing great with it.

[firemann]

Journaling, as it's been a while and Ia m looking for some advice on something.

Happy Friday all. Well - I have come a world forward in LRT and detaching. I've stopped asking anyone about my W and only respond to her txt's when they are regarding the kids. I've stopped pursuit entirely; if I see her drive past in the subdivision, I just wave but do not bother to stop and talk. I've been working out, reading and cooking a lot. I went to a meetup wine tasting event this week and ran into a a "friend girl" there that I haven't seen since the BD days. She said I looked amazing and it was great to see me smiling again. Hearing that made me feel like I was really making progress with myself. I've been trying to just go out and make new friends (male and female).

My current issue know is - my kids. We are coordial and friendly, but they are still really distant. D15 absolutely will not stay overnight at my house and S12 basically will only stay if she decided to stay. When I am with the kids, we have a lot of laughs and a lot of good talk. I will usually suggest they stay over and D15 usually says: "no, I might have plan" or "no, all my stuff is at moms". I've asked her what stuff shes refering to and that we can buy whatever she needs. Both kids bedrooms are as they left them in my house and I've actually tidied them up a good bit (made beds, laundered sheets, folded clothes)

I can't help but think someone is poisoning her mind on my W's side. I've tried telling D15 how much I miss her, that I want to cook her breakfast the next day, that I really just want to spend time with her. Nothing works. D15 and I were historically extremely close up until this separation.

We've had a few dinner dates where my W has dropped them off and said she was going on a date...I usually say 'sounds good' or 'have a blast'. When I am with the kids, I am finding I really don't worry about what my W is doing anymore. This wasn't the case with me a few months ago.

I wish there was some way I could hook D15 to a lie detector test and just ask if someone is influencing her thoughts... Last weekend, I told my W that this letting the kids decide whose house they stay at is NOT working for me and that I wanted to set a firm schedule in place. Her response was that she'd think about it. She's stated she wants the kids to be with me but she doesn't want to force them into something they do not want to do.

I am trying to remain upbeat and hopeful but wow, is it tough. I'm tempted to tell my attorney to just waive child custody arbitration and proceed for a custody court date.

I've been reading a lot about Parental Alienation. The whole matter is just extremely painful, especially with the holidays coming up.

If anyone has suggestions as to how to handle this situation, I'd love to hear them.

[firemann]

Just texted back and forth with the W regarding the kids and she reiterated she'd encourage them to stay over.

She ended with a statement: "All of this will be easier when we dont' live on the same street".

I replied back: "I completely agree!!!"

[ovrrnbw]

Fireman, it does seem like something fishy is going on. Ultimately, your kids might be old enough that they can choose where to live. You may end up talking to your kids and ask them what's going on.

I didn't speak to my mom for several years after my parents divorced. I now regret that. Just be there and be patient and kind.

I think your W is dating to make herself feel better. She's not over you. Just continue to be detached and stay in LRT mode. Glad to read your update. Merry Christmas friend.

[Ready2Change]

Not following your sitch.

If anyone has suggestions as to how to handle this situation, I'd love to hear them.

I was involved in a highly contested custody battle. I have 50/50 parenting agreement in place. My relationship with my children is/was important.



I believe the parents should be making the decisions, not the children. The children do not know what is best for them. Even the parents do not know, but they know better than the children. The experts know better than the parents. The parents should lean on the experts to help guide their decisions.


My understanding is the experts believe it is best for the children to spend equal time with each parent,as long as the parents are not harming the children.

If you can reason with mother, get her on board with the experts. If reasoning fails, then going down legal path may be needed.


A united front:

kids"I don't want to sleep at your house"
Parents"I understand. but we believe this is best" or "Your mother and I have an agreement that this is best"

Might be harder with the older child.

[firemann]

Journaling:

Hope you all had a great holiday! My Christmas was kind of interesting. I went over to the W house and watch the kids open presents. The W looked beautiful. We had breakfast together as a family and it was really nice. I went home and walked the dog. I ended up going to a neighbors for part of the day and the W took the kids to one of her friends. I ended up visiting that gal I was seeing and started really seeing this situation wasnt for me. She still has issues with her ex that I found hard not to become involved in. I ended up leaving early to meet S12 for dinner. Shortly after, I talked to that gal and said I am just not ready for a serious relationship and feel she is. I told her that I didn't feel right seeing her.
She was upset but understood.

The next part is pretty awesome. I spoke to an aunt in NY (most of my family lives there) last Thurs. She asked when I was going to visit to see her and her daughter. I never meet her (and she's my cousin). The cousin has actually been talking to my daughter on social media. After talking for a while, I decided, what the heck, I am going to drive from NC to NY to see my aunt. 12 hours of car time! I figured the only way to get my remote family back during the holidays was to do something about it. My kids got word of this within minutes and ended up joining me for the trip!!! Not only did we see my aunt, but we also reconnected with my brother (visiting from Florida), my parents (I saw my terminally ill dad!!!) and an aunt, who lives in Virginia, on the trip back home. I saw more family over this past weekend then I have the last 20 years! My kids loved it and were great travelers. The trip wasn't cheap, but I realized this was probably the last time I'd see my dad alive.

Fast forward to yesterday (tues). The W calls and says she S12 got hurt at sports practice. She then asked how the trip was and that the kids couldn't stop talking about how much they loved meeting family. We ended up talking about our dating experiences the past month or two and shared some good laughs. She is basically second guessing divorcing now and saying she needs to think about things and how she feels. This has my guard up like never before, but, I felt kind of excited. I told her that I did not want any of this separation/divorce. We spoke briefly on seeing a therapist and she mentioned she didnt like the one we say (for one session). I told her - we can decide on one we both feel comfortable with if it's the route we choose to follow. And one point I slipped up and said - please come back home. The talk went really well and for the first time in a while, I felt we had some hope. She did mention she wanted to keep things amicable, regardless of the direction we go in the next few months, but that she had some thinking to do.

Im not sure if it was me ditching my gal or making amends with my family, but the W has turned a lot more nice/receptive/human to me the last few days.

I do need to reinforce my detachment. As soon as she started throwing breadcrumbs, I did feel like I was beginning to chase her, and wow, was it hard not to.

I'm trying hard not to re-enter the world of online dating since me and that gal split up. I have this huge need for female validation. I know I shouldn't date and it's embarrassing to admit I need it, but it is there and I am fighting it!

I also realized when I am with my kids, I absolutely don't care what my W does, which is probably why she loves keeping the kids around so much.

Weird turn of events. I feel alone since I've returned from the trip but very proud of myself.

[AnotherStander]

My kids got word of this within minutes and ended up joining me for the trip!!! Not only did we see my aunt, but we also reconnected with my brother (visiting from Florida), my parents (I saw my terminally ill dad!!!) and an aunt, who lives in Virginia, on the trip back home. I saw more family over this past weekend then I have the last 20 years! My kids loved it and were great travelers. The trip wasn't cheap, but I realized this was probably the last time I'd see my dad alive.

Great idea, and glad the kids joined you!

We ended up talking about our dating experiences the past month or two and shared some good laughs. She is basically second guessing divorcing now and saying she needs to think about things and how she feels. This has my guard up like never before, but, I felt kind of excited.

Be SUPER cautious! Remember that when we say not to believe anything they say, that works both ways. Don't believe when they say it's over, and don't believe when they say they might want to recon. Why? Because it is ALL just a reflection on their feelings at that very moment in time. A snapshot. The overall pattern is scattered, and you need to be patient until it starts to come back together with some consistent behavior on her part.

I told her that I did not want any of this separation/divorce.

Don't say these things. It's pursuit. Plus she already knows you are firmly in the Plan B category.

We spoke briefly on seeing a therapist and she mentioned she didnt like the one we say (for one session).

Were you the one initiating this? If so then STOP. SHE needs to be the one that brings it up and makes arrangements for it to happen. For any chance of a solid recon, SHE has to be the one doing the work. SHE has to be committed to it.

And one point I slipped up and said - please come back home.

Here's what your response to her should be if she brings it up again - "I might consider this in the future but a lot of work has to happen first." Again she sees you as Plan B and the only way you will elevate to Plan A is if she starts to think she may lose you and she starts missing you. She's starting to move in that direction but it's going to be a long time before she's fully vested. Be patient!

Im not sure if it was me ditching my gal or making amends with my family, but the W has turned a lot more nice/receptive/human to me the last few days.

She probably realized she might actually lose you. So she started temp checking. Remember the squirrel-feeding analogy!

[firemann]

AS - what's the squirrel feeding analogy?

I did mention that I think we should get a marriage counselor if that's the route we decide to go - I will stop suggesting that as advised.

I am thinking I should just proceed with my GAL and focus on the kids. Let her make the next move to come back and keep the road home well paved. It's hard not to get my hopes up.

One last thing, and I'd love thoughts on this. My aunt heard from D15 during the visit that the reasons D15 won't stay over is 1) I got a new gal too quickly and brought her out to a fire dept outing and 2) my historic alcohol usage. W told D15 thats the reason had to leave the home and bring the kids with her.

My aunt advised I sit down with W and D15 together and discuss this and how the W actually contributed to the downfall too. My W has basically villanized me to D15.

Again, that new gal is gone and alcohol doesn't exist when I have my kids and extremely reduced when I don't.

[LH19]

Your Aunt is giving you very bad advice.

[LH19]

Another thing FM like stander said you are so amped up about recon that you might scare her away. How do you feed a squirrel? Do you chase after it or do you hold out your hand and wait until the squirrel feels safe enough to come to you?

[firemann]

Ah, that analogy makes sense!!

I want D15 to be comfortable in staying overnight at my place, especially since the W and I have another custody mediation session coming up.

Knowing the info my W has told D15 - what would you do to regain D15's interest on staying overnight??

[LH19]

Sit her down and listen and validate her feelings. You are her dad and her rock and she needs to feel safe with you. Assure her that you hear her concerns and you are addressing them. Do not get upset because she will play off your emotions. Calm, cool and collective. You can do it.

[DonH]

My aunt heard from D15 during the visit that the reasons D15 won't stay over is 1) I got a new gal too quickly and brought her out to a fire dept outing and 2) my historic alcohol usage.

Out of the mouth of babes. I agree with LH, DO NOT address this, at least in the manner suggested, with D15. Instead, learn from it. Is D15 not correct? Some of us have suggested this to you already that the very last thing you should be doing is finding a new woman at this point. i have to wonder how much that has set you back not only with D15 but with WAW. This seems to be a problem for you - even now - saying you have this urge to go online to find another woman. It's almost like a drug for you - like an addict needing their drug.

Likewise, drinking is not the answer either. I again have to wonder if you are not self medicating both with alcohol and with women. You see how it has looked to your daughter. How does it look to your W? Turn the tables, how would you feel if your W drank to excess or as soon as you told her you are not happy in the M she found another guy. I get she did find another guy - I get it - but how did it make you feel?

If you want to try to save your M you have got to STOP with other women. Drinking is also not the answer. You need to do more of what you did over the holidays and the unplanned trip with the family. THAT is what will attract your W back. Who wants to leave a guy that does things like taking his kids on a spur of the moment trip, being a great dad and having a great time in doing so. Now who wants to leave a guy that grabs the first woman he can find and drinks too much? It seems pretty simple when looked at this way, doesn't it?

Listen to what the others have posted about not pushing too much with WAW and what has happened. We've seen this before, where the WAW or WW spouse starts to come back and gets scared away again. Don't pursue - just be your best self, continue to GAL and for God's sake stay off OLD and away from the bottle.

[firemann]

LH - Im sorry, I should also mention, D15 does not want to talk to me about these concerns. I've historically asked her numerous times why she wont stay over and I hear: 'nothing!", "all my stuff is at mom's place", "I don't wanna talk about it".

She opened up to my aunt during the trip but it seems this was done in confidence. My aunt wanted me to know what my W had done.

My W has said she isn't going to make the kids do what the DONT want to do and is, therefore, pushing to get 100% custody.

I want my D15 home 50/50 but, at the same time, I don't wanna scare off the squirrel.

[firemann]

DonH - I am printing that reply to keep in my wallet. I have been self-medicating with both. It's does seem pretty simple the way you explained it. I do have this need for validation but I have stayed off of OLD.

I need to focus on how things look from the W's perspective.

[IHCLACS]

W is probably not in an emotional place to be taking accountability or discussion for the downfall of the marriage at this time. When and if she ever is I would think it would be years and years down the road after D or a few years out when piecing gets involved. Just my opinion. Not that I know from experience? Feelings are feelings they can go up and down depending on what we think about and how other people perceive us, and how we interact with them in one way, shape or form. Commitment is commitment. Its important we dustingish the difference and practice never allowing another person to knock us off our center. Easier said than done. But it takes time and eventually we get back there. My key for me is to try to balance emotions with reason and logic.

[LH19]

I’m not sure of your entire sitch but it sounds you need a court order. How would your w feel about not forcing the kids to do what they don’t want to do if they wanted to spend all their time with you? I wouldn’t want to recon with a woman who cheated on me and was trying to prevent me from seeing my children.

[AnotherStander]

AS - what's the squirrel feeding analogy?

Unfortunately I don't have it in my notes so I'll give you the short version:

You've got to allow your WAW to come to you, you can't pursue her. It's similar to feeding a squirrel- you've got to hold the food out and hold perfectly still and let the squirrel come to you and take the food out of your hand. If you get impatient and try to move the food closer to the squirrel, it will immediately run away and back up the tree and the whole process starts all over again. So you've got to be very patient and hold perfectly still and let the squirrel approach as slowly as it wants.

I did mention that I think we should get a marriage counselor if that's the route we decide to go - I will stop suggesting that as advised.

I mean you are right, but it needs to be her idea. She needs to get to the point where she is serious enough to do the work herself. If you try to speed her along, well like the squirrel she's going to run back up the tree.

I am thinking I should just proceed with my GAL and focus on the kids. Let her make the next move to come back and keep the road home well paved. It's hard not to get my hopes up.

Yes this is exactly it. And hey, it's OK to have hope. Just don't let it push you into pursuit mode.

One last thing, and I'd love thoughts on this. My aunt heard from D15 during the visit that the reasons D15 won't stay over is 1) I got a new gal too quickly and brought her out to a fire dept outing and 2) my historic alcohol usage. W told D15 thats the reason had to leave the home and bring the kids with her.

My aunt advised I sit down with W and D15 together and discuss this and how the W actually contributed to the downfall too. My W has basically villanized me to D15.

LBSs do often get vilified by the WAS. This is why we talk about actions not words. Show that you are the rock and the lighthouse. I wouldn't have a joint discussion with W, but you might tell D you've noticed she seems to not want to visit much and ask her if she wants to talk about it. If she does want to talk then LISTEN and VALIDATE. Don't tell her she's wrong, or that your W is lying or whatever. If you listen then that will earn you far more points with D than any explanation you offer up, no matter how good you might think it is. Remember, her perception is her reality. Don't argue with her perception, validate it. If she doesn't want to talk then tell her you understand, that you love her, and that you are always there for her if she changed her mind.

[neffer]

Hey F, all of these behavioral mods take time. You need to have that time and patience too. Own your D15 trust. Don´t push: listen and validate as AS says. Once a Dber always a Dber. Remember that.

[firemann]

Sorry if this is a little jumbled. I didn’t sleep much....

Went to the gym after work, and came home to find a collections notice for a power bill rerouted to my wife’s house, as she’s the account holder. She’s stated that she’d change account holder name to me, 4x now, and didn’t. Awesome. I proceed to give her a call.

We got into it on we the kids as I requested them to spend the night at my house today (Friday). Basically, they said no. No? We are their parents and we say what goes. W says she cannot push them as it causes the D to go into a
meltdown. She’s not wanting to push my daughter to stay with me and does not want to split them 50/50. I stated, as adults, we are the ones who should be setting their schedules for stays, and not them. She wasn’t hearing it. She started saying she didn’t know the D15’s cause of anxiety but to let her know if I discovered why.

I suggested that the 3 of us sit down and discuss, possibly with my daughters therapist. I want my wife and I to state to the kids that this 50/50 split is what we think is best. I’m trying not to involve lawyers but that’s what it’s coming to.

W reiterated she’s had 15 years of hell with me and that she’s 100% done with this marriage. What a difference from the last time we talked!

I didn’t get a lot of sleep over this. Spent the night alone in my house without alcohol. I haven’t felt this awful and anxious in a long time.

[LH19]

F,

We tried to warn you not to get a head of yourself. I think it’s time to lawyer up and get a custody agreement. I think it is a good idea to have the conversation with a therapist.

[firemann]

We have our second mediation session this coming week. Nothing has changed since Sept. The status quo is becoming the new normal and it doesn't work for me.

Not sure if I got ahead of myself or really stood up for myself. Asking the kids to spend one night with me this week while they are on winter break from school isn't asking a lot.

I contacted the lawyer - she's out until Tues but was made aware of the situation and will get back to me before then.

[LH19]

No you did well sticking up for yourself. You got ahead of yourself with the thought of recon.

[Ready2Change]

I didn’t get a lot of sleep over this. Spent the night alone in my house without alcohol. I haven’t felt this awful and anxious in a long time.

Good job not using alcohol. I was temped during my sitch, but chose to not drink. I am glad. There are some good self soothing techniques out there. Learning to turn off your brain and fall asleep is a great skill to have.

Any thoughts come up, I tell myself to worry about THAT tomorrow.
I slowly count down by threes from 100 to 0.
I focus on relaxing my body as I count down. I start with my face, then my shoulders and work my way down.
I focus on slow deep breaths.
If I get to zero, I start over.


Now, I don't think I make it to 80 very often.


You deserve 50/50. Stand for that. Do not settle. I am glad I did. Your relationship with your kids is the only thing that matters.

You can handle this.

[IHCLACS]

Ever try ASMR videos to go to sleep?

[firemann]

Lawyer stated to attend a joint therpay session or two with D15's therapist, D15 and W. We will be doing that tomorrow. She stated to remain available to D15 through this and that D15 probably unjustly feels that you caused the impending D.

No contact with W since our last discussion. A few times during the last discussion, I asked her to please not speak to me in a certain negative tone. She replied "I will talk you you HOWEVER I WANT TO TALK TO YOU". She's said that exact sentence three times since BD and it's horrible. Next time, I am saying 'you are obviously upset. I am done with this conversation and will resume it in the future". Why the heck am i wanting to R with this person?!

I've been feeling odd lately - some hours I feel like I failed my marriage and am just a disappointment. Other time, I feel really good about myself and that some things in life are coming around! I do have a shred of hope left for my sitch, but more and more, I am accepting divorce. I'm becoming happy on my own. I am wanting to change some things (mostly furniture) in my house so I can relax here and read books!

I went to a Successful Singles Meetup last weekend and it was a little strange - a lot of people there who were just angry, or saddened, or obvious fakes. I went to try to find some people my age that might be suitable friends. A lot of folks there just seemed lonely and not doing "the work". Thinking I do some co-ed sports instead of this group.

A coworker of mine mentioned he and his wife were fighting so much that he stayed with a friend for 9 out of 14 days. He was kind of cocky about the whole situation. I asked how he'd feel if his wife would leave him. He paused for a second and just said he envied me and my freedom. I started thinking that being alone is better than being in a s [censored]tty marriage. I told him to be careful and that everyone has a limit to the stuff they will deal with.

I am going to start a list of things I am greatful for each day. I read that in a post and it sounds like a great idea. I started to play guitar again too.

[firemann]

W emailed me today basically itemizing costs for two things: an upcoming sporting competition trip that my son needs to attend and her moving expenses (she needs a washer dryer etc). She will be moving off of my street to a new rental on 3/1/2020. She stated a few pieces of furniture in the house that she'd like to have once she moves.
She signed the email off with a nice little dig on me - 'Please let me know what you are will to do in order to to help the kids and me transition smoothly'.

"Her and the kids" ...its like she just assumes control/custody of the kids.

I've been paying monthly child support to her since we separated.

I'm thinking the moving expenses are all on her. Does she help with repairs/maintenance/anything that I am incurring on our current house? No.

I am a little up in the air on my son's sporting trip expenses. He is part of a travel team and needs to attend. I am thinking of saying that we need to divide his trips between us.

My mind is kind of swirling - I am feeling like my M is definitely over and I feel like I am nothing more than a missing paycheck to her. I n a weird way, I am going to miss them being on the same street.

[firemann]

One thing that keeps coming back to me is this huge feeling of guilt - Like my W was suffering all this time and I didn't see it; that I destroyed the M. I know I've read it takes two people to make an M fail. I just feel ripped off in this whole marriage thing. I just can't belive not once did she even try to fix things. I am scared I might spend the rest of my life alone.

I bougth a book this week called: The Journey from Abandonment to Healing. First 50 pages were a great read thus far.

I feel like I have turned a page on detachment. I'm wondering more and more when you "will know" you are good to date again.

[LH19]

You’re ready to date when you stop becoming needy. Learn to live on your own first. You have some work to do.

[ovrrnbw]

Firemann,

what's up buddy?

I know you're thinking about how to handle all these split bills and stuff. Keep it business, keep good records, and be fair.

Please let me know what you are will to do in order to to help the kids and me transition smoothly'.

You are good man right? Who's working to be a better person right? Just tell her you will do the right thing.

What does the lawyer say about her assuming custody of the kids and asking you to pay for things? You really need to be objective here, which is hard. Get objective help.

I'm still thinking about this:

Fast forward to yesterday (tues). The W calls and says she S12 got hurt at sports practice. She then asked how the trip was and that the kids couldn't stop talking about how much they loved meeting family. We ended up talking about our dating experiences the past month or two and shared some good laughs. She is basically second guessing divorcing now and saying she needs to think about things and how she feels. This has my guard up like never before, but, I felt kind of excited. I told her that I did not want any of this separation/divorce. We spoke briefly on seeing a therapist and she mentioned she didnt like the one we say (for one session). I told her - we can decide on one we both feel comfortable with if it's the route we choose to follow. And one point I slipped up and said - please come back home. The talk went really well and for the first time in a while, I felt we had some hope. She did mention she wanted to keep things amicable, regardless of the direction we go in the next few months, but that she had some thinking to do.

Unless she is really cruel, I think she is still feeling confused. So I think you shouldn't go all tough guy on her but don't be a pushover either. If she brings up anything like this, just don't mention what you want yet (for her to come home). I think that just adds too much pressure right now. Give her time, give her your ear, and think about what lead up to this: you going and GAL with the kids, having a great time, etc.... do more of that.

I am a little up in the air on my son's sporting trip expenses. He is part of a travel team and needs to attend. I am thinking of saying that we need to divide his trips between us.

I'd pay for it all and go regardless of whether your W is going or participating.

Have you read Blu's threads? These adventures are what life is about! What would you do if you didn't go? How will your son look back on this moments, and how can his dad make it an unforgettable memory? Plan some fun along the way, or when you get there, etc. My W traveled for softball prior to college and her family made every trip a great time.

[firemann]

OK - I ended up cutting her a check a few minutes ago for gymnastics. The lawyer and I both agreed a 50/50 split is fair for child custody and this is what I will pushing for.

The W texted me last night and was talking about my son's gymnastics. She went off on how much muscles he's gained. I told her I've actually gained some too from Crossfit. We had a few "remember that time when" comments and it was actually kind of nice/playful. Part of me wanted to talk R but I stopped it. I remembered the analogy on how this process is like feeding a squirrel.

I do feel confused about her and things (was also told by several that this is normal). There are times where I get angry at her for putting our family through this. There are times when I just want to somehow meet her for a hug. I was told by two friends that I have nothing but false hopes and should put her in the past and forget about her. I do have hope (and that's why I am posting)! I'm starting to feel more and more like I'd like someone to share life with and, well, I just don't know how long I should wait/if I should wait etc. I want to call her up and say - really, can we please end the madness and go to counseling (but this would be pursuit). The struggle is real!!!

My son's next gym meet is 5 hours away and I'd love it if we could all travel there as a family, but I think that'd probably be a big ask, as we are separated.

I've been doing really well on being detached and working out regularly. I struggle with being lonely in this house - sometimes it's fun and relaxing, other times, I just missed the sounds of my family's voices.

[Jac12]

Firemann, do you really want to sit in a car for 5 hours with this person? Also, don't tell her your changes, let her see them.

How long should you wait? It's your call - in my situation I've decided to remain patient while she works out her struggles. Why? 1) I want my son to know I did my best to keep our family together 2) I think she's having some personal struggles so I'm showing empathy to that. 3) In the big picture even if this last 2 years we'll still have lots of time ahead of us and I think we'll be stronger if we get past this.

[SteveLW]

Be careful with advice from people with vested interest, like friends and family. They have one goal: To help you get out of pain as quickly as possible. Why? Because your pain is uncomfortable for them. So often their advice will be to take the path that leads to the quickest relief of your pain.

[ovrrnbw]

I think you should go to your son's meet without your W. That was my whole point. If she goes that's up to her but you're driving yourself there either way. And I wouldn't invite her to share a ride either.

Fireman, I feel for you on the empty house. That's really crappy man.

That remember when moment sounds like small progress bc there was no fight, no heavy talk that ensued.

Keep your head up and keep working!

[firemann]

Thanks guys. I might stay home so I can watch the dog. The W is going to the meet regardless and my son always insists on riding with her. He has a few meets closer by that I will attend.

W texted me this morning to thanks me for the check. She threw in another legacy inside joke statement that made me smile. I didn't reply back. Glad i wrote that check, ovrrnbw - good call buddy.

Headed to a divorce therapy meeting tonight at church. Skipped the last one due to the agenda stating that you must give up hope, accept your marriage is over and move on. I still have hope, for some reason. I'd like to say I did my best to keep the family together, but i didn't. i took my ring off first. i ventured into the dating world first. I had this mindset of just wanting to find someone else IMMEDIATELY who would be a better version of my crazy W. In retrospect, I wasn't ready, I just wanted this void to go away, so I found an emotional life raft in someone else.

I had one question for you guys and it came from my therapist - when you are dating someone else, your self improvement works comes to almost a halt. Do you guys agree?

[ovrrnbw]

That's only true if you decide it is true. If you decide otherwise...

[AnotherStander]

We had a few "remember that time when" comments and it was actually kind of nice/playful. Part of me wanted to talk R but I stopped it. I remembered the analogy on how this process is like feeding a squirrel.

Quite right. Plus, she has NOT changed her mind about the M. If and when she does she will let you know in a very clear way. Until then do not initiate an R talk as she will just BD you all over again. Good convos are definitely a step forward but turn it into an R talk and she will think "wow I can't even have one nice convo with him without him thinking it means I want to get back together, maybe I should just quit talking to him."

There are times where I get angry at her for putting our family through this.

Keep in mind that her point of view is YOU are why this is happening. She felt like something was missing in the M and this is her last ditch effort to save herself. Whether you think she is right or wrong, that's how she feels so if you get angry and try to blame her it is not going to be well-received! However, it is normal to feel a wide range of emotions, just try to vent that anger through working out or in other non-confrontational ways.

I was told by two friends that I have nothing but false hopes and should put her in the past and forget about her. I do have hope (and that's why I am posting)!

Nothing wrong with hope, it keeps us optimistic and moving forward and that's a good thing. Like Steve said, friends are saying things like that for selfish reasons. They want the "old you" back and will encourage you to "rip the band-aid off" so things can get back to normal for them. Michele talks about this early in DR. Just tell them that you are doing what you feel is right, and even if they disagree you would appreciate it if they would support you in your decision.

I'm starting to feel more and more like I'd like someone to share life with and, well, I just don't know how long I should wait/if I should wait etc.

I think a year is the bare minimum, and the longer you wait the better off you are mentally for a new R (whether that's with W or someone else).

I want to call her up and say - really, can we please end the madness and go to counseling (but this would be pursuit). The struggle is real!!!

You're thinking things like this because you are clinging to the hope that the "old her" is in there somewhere just waiting for you to say the right thing to come out. But that's not the case, you're dealing with a "different her". Eventually you may be able to foster a relationship with this new version of her, but it's going to be a while before she might be ready for that.

[firemann]

AS-

I contain my anger about 95% of the time. Most of it is just frustration we are going through with all of this, while thinking inside, we could probably fix this.

I need to remember that her point of view is that **I** am why this is happening.

I am focusing on my kids, particularly trying to make amends with my strained relationship with my daughter. I do feel like the W has poisoned D15's mind.

[IHCLACS]

Be careful with advice from people with vested interest, like friends and family. They have one goal: To help you get out of pain as quickly as possible. Why? Because your pain is uncomfortable for them. So often their advice will be to take the path that leads to the quickest relief of your pain.

That's why family members and friends always say things like "You deserve better" or "Just move on."

[IHCLACS]

I had one question for you guys and it came from my therapist - when you are dating someone else, your self improvement works comes to almost a halt. Do you guys agree?

I totally agree. XW and I always told one another that in a sense when we both individually did the most growing is when we were single before we met each other. We both said we stopped growing when we starting dating. Fill the void with the right things this time for the right reasons. I understand the itch to put another person in your life to fill that void. I've done that most of my life and went right out into the dating market too, only to remove myself from it as well because I just couldn't put that burdeon on someone else and really wanted to work on myself for once in my life. Took me a year of loneliness isolation and introspection, but its paying off a thousand fold in realizations.

[firemann]

Woke up today to a friend's text informing me my W has entered the world of online dating. The friend didn't even know the W and I were separated.

Kind of shook/destroyed my hope in R someday. i'll continue to just work on me and the kids, and not worry about what she does

[LH19]

How does that destroy your hope of reconciliation someday?

Aren’t you being a little hypocritical?

[Jac12]

Doesn't change hope of R - that's your hope and its you're choice regardless of her actions.

Maybe she dates a few guys and realizes she misses the ol' firetruck.

Try not to read too much into it.

[firemann]

This is true. When I returned from NY, we spoke and she mentioned she went out with a few "winners".

Good, bad or indfferent, I know I did the same and I did it to grab hold of an emotional life raft to fill this void.

[ovrrnbw]

Woke up today to a friend's text informing me my W has entered the world of online dating. The friend didn't even know the W and I were separated.

Kind of shook/destroyed my hope in R someday. i'll continue to just work on me and the kids, and not worry about what she does

Ask the friend to please keep things like this to himself, as you guys are living separately and you don't really need to keep up with her anymore.

[IHCLACS]

Silly question? Can you assign a different meaning or thought to the fact that W is online dating? We all know what it means FOR RIGHT NOW. She probably wants to be social. Find a compatibility partner, maybe sleep with a few people, have different experiences and conversations. Have freedom. Etc... How does that make you feel? Probably pi$$ed I bet. Betrayed, etc.. Let me ask you this? How is that helping you heal or grow? What is it going to take for you to get to a place to say? "You know what? Good for her. I hope she's happy and having a good time" We can't control life, we can't control other people, their thoughts their morals their principles, their habits and their actions their mindsets and their words. You know what we can control? All of the above for ourselves and how we think about them and what meaning we assign to them. Do you want to keep thinking reactive or proactive? Keep building you.

[AnotherStander]

Woke up today to a friend's text informing me my W has entered the world of online dating.

Bless her heart, she's about to find out the grass isn't greener on the other side, it's old and brown and dried out and crusty This is the perfect time for you to be the better option. Keep up your GAL and work on that independence some more. Let her look over her shoulder and see a strong, confident man the likes of which she will NEVER find on Tinder or wherever.

[firemann]

I can assign a different meaning - she needs to get out more. I actually told her that if she'd loosen her grip on the kids, she'd have more time to go out with whomever. I realize I can't control her or her actions.

I have no idea what it's going to take to get to that place - maybe I should keep saying it until I believe it.

This statment resonated with me:
"Took me a year of loneliness isolation and introspection, but its paying off a thousand fold in realizations."

I need to do more as to understanding the man I wanna be and the woman I really want.

[LITB]

Hey Firemann,

Keep plugging away, you will get there. Eventually you will get to a place where you will realize that life is going to be great either way. Most of the time the journey to get there [censored], but the payoff is beyond worthwhile.

[firemann]

Woke up today to a friend's text informing me my W has entered the world of online dating.

Bless her heart, she's about to find out the grass isn't greener on the other side, it's old and brown and dried out and crusty This is the perfect time for you to be the better option. Keep up your GAL and work on that independence some more. Let her look over her shoulder and see a strong, confident man the likes of which she will NEVER find on Tinder or wherever.

I freggin love this. Going to take out my angst at the CrossFit box tonight, AS.

[firemann]

I wanted to say too that I am extremely grateful for this board. I've learned a world from you guys and thank you for your words and patience.

[job]

New Thread:

Separated and facing divorce (Part 3)