Relapse and Lost Progress Part II

Divorcebusting.com

Link to last thread: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2865823#Post2865823

She is saying I am refusing to leave. I do not how to handle this, I feel myself getting very emotional. I am so furious. I want to spew at her, tell her she is delusional. I have worked far too hard for her to come in and mess this is up. My grades are feeling the effects. If she wants to leave so badly and live apart, she can go find an extra part time job and pay for an apartment. But instead I am the one expected to do this. Is it wrong to tell her my thoughts?

44,

Do not tell her your thoughts. Tell her that if she wants out that she is the one who needs to leave and that you�re not leaving the house until it�s sold or she buys you out.

Agreed with LH, she can leave if she wants to. Don�t let her bait you into a fight.

I definitely needed that reminder...dont let her bait me into a fight, got it.

So I had to finish my midterm (last one, thank heavens above) and couldn't talk when W got home. She wanted to finish the discussion after I had stopped replying (when she said I was refusing to leave). By the time I was done, she had gone to bed. So I assume this convo is going to happen tomorrow and will go along similar lines. I think I have everything in a row, she really cannot tell me to leave. I will tell her if she can't stand it, she can be the one to arrange something else. I don't know how many times I can tell her I don't want to go live with my grandmother in the house where my grandpa just died. She says it is not unreasonable that she doesn't want to live together. But it is also not unreasonable for me to say it cannot happen immediately, because she suddenly wants to change everything about our lives with no input from me. If she was so unsure she shouldn't have signed so many legal contracts.

Ultimately, I feel I am in a lose lose situation. She doesn't want to be with me, I want to move on, it [censored] to be stuck without a clean break. I get that. If we somehow R because I don't leave (which I think is what she fears), then I most likely be stuck having hope again with someone who seems to just be convincing herself and me that she wants to be with me during times outside of BD. This is what I have resigned myself to believe, that she wanted to love me but never truly could enough for some reason. Maybe just that anxiety over the imbalance. I probably pushed too hard. Just like I pushed while she was away and caused this latest round. It guts me. I wish I did not love her so much.

44,

Yeah she�s going to try to manipulate you to get you out of the house probably by throwing you some crumbs that if you leave that will give her time and space to think about things. Listen, validate and stand your ground that you are not the one who wants out and you�re not leaving until the D is final and you have all your affairs in order.

Hey 44 how you doing buddy?

I�ll add that if she tries to draw out the discussion and wear you down just state your position and say �I can�t take it any further � and/or �I�m firm with my position �

Good luck mate

Here is the link to your initial thread when you joined in April 2018, if you want to add it.

https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...ain=61250&Number=2783627#Post2783627

You didn't cause this, 44. I think your W has some unresolved issues from her childhood that show up in your relationship. Because you are the closest person to her, you are the one she projects her stuff on to.

I will admit it is a little difficult for me to give you unbiased advice about your sitch, b/c I don't like your WW. She may have issues that originated in her childhood, IDK. She has admitted to knowing what it is and what she does wrong and stubbornly refuses to go get help b/c she doesn't want to "hear about it" in therapy. Okay, but the main thing I don't like about her is that she is a bully. She is a manipulator. Now, call me crazy.........but I have not seen a bully, manipulator, and abuser in a relationship change by having R talks. These type of people do not wish to resolve the problems within the relationship! Do you get that, 44? She is bullying you to move out of the house.

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She texted again before any response from me...that she is thinking of going to the courthouse today or tomorrow to get papers and what are my thoughts. Now I'm really freaking.

Why are you freaking???? You have been posting about this very possible scenario, so now it's here. And, being 44tries, you want to sit down and design a mature plan............with a very immature WW. What will you propose? More IHS until you get your degree? Which means more abuse, b/c she doesn't want you cramping her style. The more you tell her you need time to finish your course work, or more time to think about things.........the more harassment she's going to dump on you. It is your call, 44. I just don't want you go stick your head in the sand, hoping she'll do "the right thing".........b/c that is not taking action to protect yourself. You need to get a lawyer's legal advice, and I think you said you had the military policy (in writing) about marital separation, etc.

You say you wish you didn't love her so much. From the time you first joined the board, I did not sense your posts were coming from a broken-hearted man who was desperately in love with his WW. And, I mean no disrespect by saying this, 44. I think you wanted to have that bond with her. You, like most every person, wanted to be a good spouse, get your degree so that you could make a decent living, and have a happy marriage. Your W, on the other hand, had doubts from the beginning, and I think she knew in her heart that she was not committed. I think she likes the initial stage of a new relationship. The flirting, texting, maybe even having sex......IDK. As we have previously discussed, she has some type of fear of intimacy, vulnerability, or something else that prevents her from fully committing to a long term relationship. She'll move on the next OM to get the initial "rush", and the next, etc. Now, whether she has a mental/emotional problem or not...........you do not have to endure her abuse. You said it was hard to "give up" on your W. I think it is hard to give up the dream you had for this MR, which I think we all had when we M young. I simply do not see this situation getting better by you trying to hunker down on your side, b/c the problem is not you. You could be the perfect role model of a H, and I don't think it will change her behavior, now.

It seems to me that when you have been under pressure from her, it is hard for you to take the lead and make a firm decision that might not align with what she wants. You wait to see what she does, what she tells you, or whatever......you wait for her to call the shots. If she goes into her avoiding routine, then you fall back to the DB principle of working on yourself, etc., etc. I'm going out on a limb to say that some men with NGS, envision that particular DB principle much in the same way they use the title or label of "Christian" as a their excuse to stay with an unloving, even abusive, spouse....rather than lead with a decision or action independent of his spouse. What I'm saying is that this principle is seen as a comfort zone. It even sounds safer. However, these H's struggle enforcing boundaries b/c the lines have become so blurry living in those conditions day after day......and the wayward spouse wears them down. It's like battle fatigue! Again, I am not trying to be insulting.......really! I'm not saying that particular DB principle is wrong, and I'm not saying religion, scripture (or whatever) else is wrong. I'm saying what I've seen in this type of situation where a man who has insecurity issues, and who "freaks out" when W pressures him for immediate action. I see men who back down and settle for a bad sitch, hoping upon hope she will change.

44, everything you've said about her signing legal contracts, etc., is true. However, we are talking about a woman who has a problem with commitment, who is totally selfish, who is in rebellion.......and don't forget, illogical. I think men are taking a huge, huge gamble when they invest into a new house with a WW. Even if she was a recovering WW who was doing the necessary work to save her MR, I think it is a mistake..........unless they have nowhere to live and buy cheaper than renting. I would tell anyone who should ask me personally, to hold off the first couple of years that WW is recovering.

And speaking of gambling..............

On top of everything else, she has a gambling addiction. Yes, she does. In fact, she may not be in an affair, and there may not be some OM. Her texting and sneakiness may very well be connected to something else. Here's what I'm going to suggest. I think you need to do what works for you. Would you do better if you actually had Intell about OM, or would you become more obsessive? You are currently losing your mind and don't even know for sure. Look, rebellion takes on different forms. Waywardness is begins in the heart/mind before it ever shows overtly. Most cases we have on the board does include a WW in an affair, but I have said for years that the WW can show rebellion in other ways........and become addicted to other things. I would say an affair ranks the top of the list, but gambling is not too far behind. In some cases, the WW gets into the GGW lifestyle, starts taking drugs, etc. Sometimes it's the OM that leads her off into other areas, but not always. I'm just saying that you could be looking so hard for OM that you don't see what's really going on.

You said if you knew for sure there was an OM, you'd tell her to pack her stuff and leave. Okay, so get the Intell, and save your sanity. I just want you to remember a couple of things before you do it. Once you read it, you can't unread and it's there in your memory bank forever. Once you read the evidence, it takes much more self control to not look again, and again, and again........better known as "snooping". It may sound more like a play on words, but some distinguish gathering evidence or Intell apart from daily snooping. As one of the guys told you, once you have evidence, don't keep going back to see what they say the following days. It is very addictive behavior, and only you know if you can handle it.

LH, DS9, T, thank you all so much, every one of your posts was helpful for me.

W continued her strange behavior last night and woke me up out of dead sleep at 1am to ask if I had let dogs in her room. I have had nothing to with that and she knows one of our dogs open doors. I told her no. Then she text me from work about it AGAIN this morning, asking if it was me. I just told her no again. She did not bring up anything about the "unfinished" discussion from yesterday. When she got home, she started talking about work and no mention of a convo. Then she said she was going to the bar with coworkers tonight and some girl sped in like she owned the place and picked her up about an hour later. She said she will Uber home.

I am so angry at my detachment. I want to not care. I still think this is part of why our relationship has had problems. I can't help but feel controlling about this kind of thing. It used to be worse, I forced myself to be better, and then at the literal peak of what I achieved, she cheated. Obviously right now it is impossible to feel secure and trusting of her, but with detachment I should feel nothing. I don't want that adrenaline and panic I feel when she runs out and gets in some car I don't know. An MR cannot work if I cannot let my W go out with friends without panic. Again, I know it's not as pertinent right now, but I would have felt the same way if there were no BD and she just didn't invite for whatever reason. She probably would never not, but that is because she thinks I would freak out. It's a horrible feedback loop. I want to address these control/anxiety problems and am journaling them here so I can remember for IC. But I hear what you are all saying, ultimately the problem is not me.

Sandi, I'm going to reply to your post separately.

Originally Posted by sandi2

I do get it. But I need constant reminding. Remember, I have been manipulated for years. My brain does not see clearly anymore. I am not making excuses, I'm just being honest that it is extremely difficult for me to remember that she is the bad guy. That she will not respond like a normal, sensible human being. Thankfully, yesterday when she pressed me on the issue of a "plan", it took me an hour per text, BUT. I wrote all kinds of feelings, sensible arguments, expressed my rage, but every time I would edit and edit again until it was DB approved. I erased everything and went with the detached answer. I fully understand that she does not want to resolve problems. I just need to never forget it.

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I don't know! I don't wan't to be freaking. I want to feel in control. I am certainly not going to hang everything on hoping she does the right thing. Your advice is wise and I need to seek a consultation. Ultimately, there is no way she can legally kick me out for at least three months, per my therapist, if she filed tomorrow. Which by the way, she threatened again yesterday that she would go to the courthouse then or today, and once again she has not followed through. If I stand my ground, I feel fairly confident she will back down. Maybe I am too optimistic, but she is more bark than bite. She comes home from work and goes on these rants about accountability and upholding standards, etc. She gives me all these mock lectures meant for these "crappy" people she works with. I want to turn those speeches back on her, I mean it's almost a joke. How she can go on about all these values that she is blatantly violating in her personal life. She is very passionate and good at her job. Maybe if I had held her accountable in the same way, things would be different IDK.

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You say you wish you didn't love her so much. From the time you first joined the board, I did not sense your posts were coming from a broken-hearted man who was desperately in love with his WW. And, I mean no disrespect by saying this, 44. I think you wanted to have that bond with her. You, like most every person, wanted to be a good spouse, get your degree so that you could make a decent living, and have a happy marriage. Your W, on the other hand, had doubts from the beginning, and I think she knew in her heart that she was not committed. I think she likes the initial stage of a new relationship. The flirting, texting, maybe even having sex......IDK. As we have previously discussed, she has some type of fear of intimacy, vulnerability, or something else that prevents her from fully committing to a long term relationship. She'll move on the next OM to get the initial "rush", and the next, etc. Now, whether she has a mental/emotional problem or not...........you do not have to endure her abuse. You said it was hard to "give up" on your W. I think it is hard to give up the dream you had for this MR, which I think we all had when we M young. I simply do not see this situation getting better by you trying to hunker down on your side, b/c the problem is not you. You could be the perfect role model of a H, and I don't think it will change her behavior, now.

If I'm honest, the first part of this is a bit disturbing to me. I mean, I have worked very hard not to be "desperate" so I guess I am glad I did not come off that way. But I am not exactly sure the reason you question my love for my W. Of course, I wish it was reciprocated and that bond was whole and my marriage was happy. And yes I am a practical person and have not neglected those areas of life. But if I was basing this on practicality, I would not be here spending my time hung up on someone who does not deserve it. It is only because of you and all the others and my work here that I am able to see that she does not deserve it. If i came here with sappy sobbing, I would be hit with 2x4s. I do believe if you read my early threads, you would see some. Sure, it is hard to give up the dream I had for the MR. That is part of mourning in a D. But it is not just that. It is about accepting that my W is a crappy person. It is about giving up on the thought that maybe she is just in pain, maybe she just needs help, etc. I really believe in her. And every time I come here, everyone convinces me why I shouldn't and I just fight and fight to tell myself that you are all right.

As for the rest of what you wrote here, I think you are spot on. She clearly has some fear of vulnerability/commitment and enjoys the thrills of a new relationship, partying with friends, etc. She wants freedom and to run away from real responsibility. It is very helpful for you to reiterate that the problem is not me. I agree that no changes on my part alone could ever change her behavior. And I do not have to endure her abuse. That is the part that I can surely subscribe to. I am so angry at this point, I do believe it is stronger than whatever fears I have about pissing her off or sending her to the courthouse etc. This is why I am so angry at my detachment because I still "freak out" about that stuff, but when I go to sleep at night, ultimately I do not. I know who is right and who is wrong. I know it is not me and I am not afraid to make her angry if it means standing up for myself. I told her clearly my priority is to protect myself.

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It seems to me that when you have been under pressure from her, it is hard for you to take the lead and make a firm decision that might not align with what she wants. You wait to see what she does, what she tells you, or whatever......you wait for her to call the shots. If she goes into her avoiding routine, then you fall back to the DB principle of working on yourself, etc., etc. I'm going out on a limb to say that some men with NGS, envision that particular DB principle much in the same way they use the title or label of "Christian" as a their excuse to stay with an unloving, even abusive, spouse....rather than lead with a decision or action independent of his spouse. What I'm saying is that this principle is seen as a comfort zone. It even sounds safer. However, these H's struggle enforcing boundaries b/c the lines have become so blurry living in those conditions day after day......and the wayward spouse wears them down. It's like battle fatigue! Again, I am not trying to be insulting.......really! I'm not saying that particular DB principle is wrong, and I'm not saying religion, scripture (or whatever) else is wrong. I'm saying what I've seen in this type of situation where a man who has insecurity issues, and who "freaks out" when W pressures him for immediate action. I see men who back down and settle for a bad sitch, hoping upon hope she will change.

I think this is pretty accurate and can definitely be applied to me, at least in the past. I hope I am at the point where I will no longer settle for a bad sitch. My patience has worn thin, and I cannot ignore the reality that this is happening again. She has even called me out on what you describe, waiting for her to call the shots and wait for her cue. But it is tricky in this case because she is the one who is initiating all of this. How can I take the lead? It does go against the DB principle of putting the focus on yourself and not the sitch. So what do you recommend exactly? How do I call the shots?

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44, everything you've said about her signing legal contracts, etc., is true. However, we are talking about a woman who has a problem with commitment, who is totally selfish, who is in rebellion.......and don't forget, illogical. I think men are taking a huge, huge gamble when they invest into a new house with a WW. Even if she was a recovering WW who was doing the necessary work to save her MR, I think it is a mistake..........unless they have nowhere to live and buy cheaper than renting. I would tell anyone who should ask me personally, to hold off the first couple of years that WW is recovering.

I completely understand this, but I don't know what to do about it. Everyone in my life tells me, no you are not crazy, you are not the problem, everything is reasonable. The legal contracts is true, etc. But IT DOES NOT MATTER TO HER! That is the whole problem. I feel like the only thing I can do is keep playing above board, and standing up for my side of these legal contracts, and everything else that goes with them. But like you said if she is not playing by fair rules, what does it matter?? As far as investing in a new house, yes I hear you. If I was asked to put my life savings into it, I would not. She used her military benefits, which are generous in allowing you to buy a house without investing much. It is much cheaper than renting where we are. And at the time, she was all about "our" house and doing it together. What am I supposed to do when she comes back and goes back on everything when she changes her mind. It is not fair, it is not even legal. But it's the same issue, this doesn't matter. I can stand my ground and give her her own accountability speech and tell her tough luck she put herself in this position. Or I can move out, per her request. What is your suggestion? It seems that you think I should move out, but I am not totally clear.

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And speaking of gambling..............

I completely agree with what you are saying here. I am not yet convinced there is an actual OM. And I am clear on why it doesn't really matter. The waywardness is clear as day, and however it manifests is not ultra relevant. BUT, at the end of the day, an affair IS a bit different than gambling, drinking, etc. Simply in the severity of my response. Perhaps not if she was off the rails, spending every last dime at the casino or going drinking every night. But as it stands, it has not crossed the line to really affect me the way an affair would. And that's why I have been driving myself crazy going back and forth on it.

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You said if you knew for sure there was an OM, you'd tell her to pack her stuff and leave. Okay, so get the Intell, and save your sanity. I just want you to remember a couple of things before you do it. Once you read it, you can't unread and it's there in your memory bank forever. Once you read the evidence, it takes much more self control to not look again, and again, and again........better known as "snooping". It may sound more like a play on words, but some distinguish gathering evidence or Intell apart from daily snooping. As one of the guys told you, once you have evidence, don't keep going back to see what they say the following days. It is very addictive behavior, and only you know if you can handle it.

If it is okay for me to do from a legal standpoint, yes I would tell her to leave. I run the risk of her not paying the mortgage or other bills, but she is legally obligated to do so. Part of her paycheck is designated for me and the house. And if she is committing adultery, she has no ground to stand on and I could report her and cost her everything. She knows this. Of course I doubt she believes I would ever do it. But if it came to that, I would. This is why I say she is bark over bite. Anyway, I would need some kind of evidence. From what you said, it sounds like I need to get intel. I have no concern I would be tempted to go back for more. I am only concerned with knowing one way or the other. I am all too aware that it cannot be erased from my memory. That is enough for me to keep it to the bare minimum. I cannot emphasize enough how much I do not want to allow her to cause me any more hurt than she already has.

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You may have Stockholm syndrome, IDK. I think it's another reason you need to stick to the board. Not to read the bashing of your W, but rather to help you stay focused and able to see your sitch more objectively.

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yesterday when she pressed me on the issue of a "plan", it took me an hour per text, BUT. I wrote all kinds of feelings, sensible arguments, expressed my rage, but every time I would edit and edit again until it was DB approved. I erased everything and went with the detached answer.

Great! Writing out your emotions sounds as if it could be a helpful form of therapy. Also remember this, she may not care how you feel......but the people on the DB understand your fear & anger. We care.

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Ultimately, there is no way she can legally kick me out for at least three months, per my therapist, if she filed tomorrow. Which by the way, she threatened again yesterday that she would go to the courthouse then or today, and once again she has not followed through. If I stand my ground, I feel fairly confident she will back down. Maybe I am too optimistic, but she is more bark than bite.

Threatening is a form of bullying. The bully will target your area of fear. Once they see their bullying is ineffective, the dynamics change. I remember an episode of an old TV show. The elementary age son was being bullied to give up his lunch money every day. The bully was bigger in size and would threaten to beat up this smaller boy if he didn't surrender the lunch money. Finally the boy talked about it to his dad (which, was a wise Andy Griffith). I think he asked his son, Opie, what was the worst that could happen if he didn't give this bully his lunch money. Opie told him him he was afraid of the bully physically fighting him, b/c Opie was smaller. Andy asked Opie what was he dealing with now. Living in fear of this bully, going hungry at school, experiencing low self esteem, etc.......all due to his fear of the bully fighting him. Anyway, Andy told him it would not end until he stood up to the bully and was ready to fight.... even if it meant he would get punched. Next day, the bully approached him to force over the lunch money, but Opie told the bully he would not get money that day or any other day. I think Opie told the bully that he did not want to fist fight, but he would. Then Opie held up his fists to indicate he was ready to fight the bully. The bully backed down and didn't bother him anymore (which was good TV), but the point was that this boy had to face his fear, even if it meant that he got beat up. Opie had suffered more from the fear of this bully slugging him, until if was affecting his entire life.

44, I think I have previously suggested that you identify the action your W does, or could do, that you fear. If you can't name it, how will you stand up to it? Your W knows you well, and she keeps you vulnerable by threats, withholding affection, emotionally bashing you with criticism, pressuring you to do something you don't want to do, etc. It's as if you have been in this emotional prison for a long time.

Okay, so you don't want to stay with your grandparent. You see that being a worse case scenario than your current situation? I'm just asking. Which ordeal can you handle the best, while you focus on the last miles to your degree? Next question: Do you really believe, or are you saying what you think the board wants to hear, that WW would get her own apartment while she financially supports you in that new home? I don't know how much she draws through the military, but I'm thinking she would struggle forking over money for two separate housing........so she would leave you stranded with the fallout. WW's don't really care about contracts, or how their credit score is affected. WW's operate from what? Their emotions. Not logic, but feelings. Therefore, stop expecting or hoping she will do the right thing. Instead, prepare for the worst.

Just in case there are newcomers reading, I'm going to tell you to do some things that may sound contrary to last year's advice when you were trying to save the MR. I'm going to tell you some things that are going to be tough to do, and when you read it your feelings may get somewhat confused b/c in the back of your mind you see yourself DBing your M. The time has come for you to let go. If you don't want to heed my advise, that is certainly up to you, b/c it's your life.

First step, 44, is to let go of the dream you had for this MR. Accept that it is over, and let go of your W. I am not telling you how to feel about it. I'm saying what you need to do to survive a WW who is out of control. You have to face your fear of divorce. You don't have to like it, agree with it, or "believe in divorce"........but in order for you to face your fear, you have to let go of the MR. That fear of divorce is currently doing more emotional damage than if it had already happen in reality. You are Opie, 44. It's the fear that grips you by the b@lls and keeps you feeling like that little bullied boy. My advice is to accept that the M is over and conduct your actions as if you were already divorced and she is no longer a part of your life.

If you don't understand what I mean, then let me put it this way. Stop treating her as though she is your beloved spouse. Stop talking to her as if you love her unconditionally. Stop being tender with her. Stop rescuing her from herself. Stop doing favors for her, washing her bedding, running errands, etc. Stop being her friend! Stop going on vacations, trips, etc. Stop accommodating her. Stop spending time with her. Stop acting as if her feelings matter to you. Stop being afraid of her rants, and stop listening to them. Stop trying to save the M. Allow her to experience the vacancy you leave in her life.

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Ultimately, there is no way she can legally kick me out for at least three months, per my therapist, if she filed tomorrow.

Maybe, but does the law force her to feed you and pay the utilities? What good is staying in a house without food, electricity and heat through the winter? Does the law force her to have a joint bank account with you? If you could financially cover the necessities you'll need, then no problem. However, if she has control over your living conditions, it seems it would have you at a big disadvantage. If you can receive spousal support from the military, without going through her hands, so to speak, that would be much better, IMHO. Another thing I'll mention about the new house, is something one of my relatives when through when her H left her with a baby a new house. She was so worried about the house going into foreclosure, and finally her lawyer told her, "There are far worse things that could happen in life". I don't know if that is comforting or not, but it seem to have helped her let go of some stress. I'm just saying that if you can't pay for the house, then what can you do? I would think, but could be wrong, that there would be a military department that can advise or inform a LBS of options. I know child support can be held out of the check and sent directly to the custodial parent, so why not in cases of separation/divorce? Get on the ball about taking steps to cover yourself, and forget about WW/MR.

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She gives me all these mock lectures meant for these "crappy" people she works with. I want to turn those speeches back on her, I mean it's almost a joke. How she can go on about all these values that she is blatantly violating in her personal life. She is very passionate and good at her job. Maybe if I had held her accountable in the same way, things would be different IDK.

She cannot see further than her nose, b/c she is wayward! You cannot reason with crazy! How about this.......she doesn't get to lecture you! You aren't waiting around all day for her to come home and bash you. Either leave the house, ignore her, or tell her to hush. Some WW's who are married to

Opps, didn't mean to hit the submit key. So where was I? Some WW's have to be shown that the LBH isn't going to give her his attention when she is being bossy, demanding, criticizing, etc. Know what I mean? I suspect you have never put her in her place, or even know what I mean by that statement. For now, just stop giving her your attention when rants. The second it begins.......you turn your back, walk out, turn up the TV, or do something that shows you aren't interested and aren't going to put up with it. The usual advice is to look at the spouse, listen, validate, etc. I'm saying not to do any of that when she starts the rants and criticism. You have switched from the passive, caring, tender spouse who was trying to endure her bad treatment.......to a man who will not take abuse. Don't crawl into a shell, 44. If you can't shut her out, then go somewhere you don't have to hear it.

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Maybe if I had held her accountable in the same way, things would be different IDK.

I think it could have been effective last year, but that particular window of time has passed. You aren't trying to save the relationship, you are saving yourself. She is on her own until she is ready to commit to working on the MR. Your job does not require you to be her punching bag. Last year, you were the H who was available to listen to her vent about her job/coworkers. She did not appreciate it. She took something valuable and mistreated it, so now she will face the vacant space her caring H use to occupy. At first, she will probably feel enraged that her H is no longer acting like her puppet, who can make decisions for himself. She didn't see that his attention was a loving gift. Therefore, it is currently not available to hear her negativity about him, their M, her job, or her life in general. She took & took and wouldn't give back.

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I really believe in her.

What do you mean when you say you believe in her?

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My patience has worn thin, and I cannot ignore the reality that this is happening again. She has even called me out on what you describe, waiting for her to call the shots and wait for her cue. But it is tricky in this case because she is the one who is initiating all of this. How can I take the lead? It does go against the DB principle of putting the focus on yourself and not the sitch. So what do you recommend exactly? How do I call the shots?

I thought I tried to address this subject last year. I don't know if it is me or you, but one of us is confused. You can't lead b/c it goes goes against the DB principle of focusing on yourself?

Well, you can throw out what I said in my last post, as well as this one.....if you don't agree with what I recommended. Just tell me, so I don't spend a lot of time with something you know you aren't going to do.

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What am I supposed to do when she comes back and goes back on everything when she changes her mind. It is not fair, it is not even legal. But it's the same issue, this doesn't matter. I can stand my ground and give her her own accountability speech and tell her tough luck she put herself in this position. Or I can move out, per her request. What is your suggestion? It seems that you think I should move out, but I am not totally clear.

I wrote about some of this in the previous post. If you would be making your life more miserable by moving in with relatives, then don't do it. My point is to check all your options to see what works the best, other than the two of you remaining under the same roof.

I left your thread yesterday, not feeling so good. Even when I write a sentence to tell other readers the advice in that particular post is going to sound different from the usual or initial advice we give when one first joins the board..........I think many people must only read a portion and aren't acquainted with the history of the sitch. More importantly, I kept thinking about you, 44, and what you said about everyone telling you how your W was crappy, and how that effected you. Then I remembered I had made the statement that I didn't like your WW. I should have said I don't like her ways.

I am guilty of trying to get the LBH's eyes open to see the wayward attitude & behavior in his W.......and how their dynamic has to change before he can have a healthy MR....and, I probably don't sound very compassionate. I'll be the first to say a lot of my posts have a harsh edge, b/c I can identify with what sets WW's apart. I'm trying to get the LBH to see that he can't be a wimp with a WW-- and believe she's going to change how she feels about him.

You asked what if your W just needed help. Well, let me ask a question in return. What do you think it would take for her to seek psychiatric therapy that dealt with whatever she claims happened in her childhood? I'll ask an easier one..What do you think it would take for her to stop her bullying/controlling behavior?

You are not the bad guy, 44. That does not mean you've been perfect. I think you enable a lot of your W's behavior, by simply allowing her to control your actions. Anyway, I'm going to end here. Hope you have a decent weekend.

((hugs))

First of all, thank you so much Sandi, for taking the time to write so much to me. I know exactly why you have a "harsh edge" and what your intentions are. I Understand how the LBH needs to really be reminded what he is dealing with and I think your approach is great for that. You are worried about disclaiming what you wrote to me for newcomers, but to be honest, it really is not against DBing. You are telling me to let go of the MR, and the dream I had for it, and move forward with the sole focus of protecting myself and not worrying about WW. That is what I have been told since the day I joined this board. You may have put it bluntly, or maybe you meant it in some distinguishing way, but the reality is TRUE DB is doing what you suggested, and I have not yet gotten to that place where I have truly let go. I have made a lot of peace, I've succeeded in all the non pursuit and faking it, but have I ever truly moved forward with the mindset that I am not hoping for R? No. And it will be very tough. Some of it will still be faking it. But, unless I am misinterpreting you somehow, I hear clearly what you are saying and fully subscribe. I just cannot have the fear anymore. And the only way that happens is to actually let go.

Your bully example with Opie was great. If the fear goes, everything changes. Suddenly all that power it holds over me is gone. My next IC session I am going to specifically bring up that I want to work on this issue. Getting rid of the fear. You put it as the fear of divorce, and I think that's an apt way to describe it. I don't know if it is one thing over the other. It's losing my wife, my home, my lifestyle, security/comfort zone, feeling humiliated about this happening to me, stress about being set back financially, who knows what else I am not thinking of right now. But if you roll it all up and call it divorce, yes it's terrifying. It all flashes before my eyes and W knows it. And she needs to not know it or nothing will change. And by that I mean, I need to be no longer terrified. Just like Opie.

You wrote about the bashing on my W and it's affect on me. This is something I have struggled with since joining here last year. It is a touchy thing for me because realizing you may have been manipulated, or trusted someone you shouldn't, or your own W is not who you thought she was, has the power to touch one's self esteem, self confidence, self trust. And that is a deep thing. It is very painful for me to think about, perhaps I cannot even fully articulate why. It is a constant struggle for me to reconcile the things I read here with a holistic reality. Obviously, you do not know my W. The only things you know about her have been written by someone that isn't her (me). So whatever image you have in you mind of who she is, surely is not totally accurate. It just isn't possible. How accurate it is I have no idea. A lot of us search for reasons for our WW's behavior. Past trauma, mental illness, MLC, you have heard them all. For me, at least, this is because I do not believe people are "bad" or do bad things for no reason. And I certainly don't want to believe that if there are such bad people, that I married one. I guess what I'm trying to say is, similar to how you came back and said you would rather say you don't like my W's ways than HER, it's hard to let go of W for her ways when they don't match who I think she really is (I realize there is a disconnect here).

Just trying to explain the LBH perspective, I think of it kind of like rebellious teenagers who act out. You know it's because they are hurting, having trouble at home, etc, all the stereotypical reasons. They may require tough love, but you don't give up on them. You don't stop loving them. Maybe for me to stop loving my W, I feel like I must feel she is a bad person. Otherwise I just can't. This is what I meant when I said I don't want to give up on her. The thing about my W, that is very hard for me to wrap my head around, is that she seems to have two value systems. It's as if she knows what she should value highly, but she doesn't. But if you know something's value is high, how do you value it low? It is a very tricky thing. But that dissonance is her disease. She knows the "right" way to live, how to be financially responsible, what career and education moves would be best, what kind of person is ideal to marry, etc. She is not dumb. And she wants all those things, which I think is the part of her that is attracted to me, because I check all those "look good" boxes. I am an attractive, educated, "set-up-for-success" guy that is easy to show off at parties or meet your mom. And she comes from a background, unlike me, where finding someone like that might not have been the most likely outcome. I hope I am not coming off like some arrogant a$$hole here, it is not at all my intention. I'm just trying to illustrate her internal conflict. She wants to make good choices and have the kind of life that comes with that, but then there is this other half of her that throws it all away. She wants to want it, but she doesn't. Instead, she would rather go throw away all her disposable money at the casino, have stupids flings with 19 year olds, and go out drinking with people throwing away their paychecks at the casino right alongside her.

This is part of the problem. It is easy for you guys reading here to see the black and white, and say no doubt about it she has a gambling problem ,etc. I am not saying I don't agree, but it is not as black and white as it may appear at first. Half of her immediate circle coworkers are VIPs at the casino (I am not exaggerating here). For reference, she has only attained like two levels below that. She does not spend money that is not disposable. And all around her, this is "normal" behavior. Do they all have problems? Probably. It certainly is not financially responsible, whether or not we can call it a disease. And being married to someone like me, she has to constantly feel like I'm judging her or controlling her and ruining her fun if she wants to participate. I don't tell her what she can or can't do with the money she earns, nor do I berate her about her decisions, but I am not going to lie and say great idea! Pull $500 more out and keep going! She knows I don't approve, ultimately because she knows it's WRONG. Maybe not morally in this case, but you get the idea. She seems to constantly want to do things that she knows aren't the right thing and it tortures her. It's like she tries to hold the dam, but it routinely fails and she falls off her internal value wagon. And I am left with someone who I thought was a partner on all these things, suddenly go into rebellion. I realize it's not truly sudden, because she has been struggling against the dam the whole time. The waywardness is always there. But I get it, I cannot chase her back into the fire and get burned myself.

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She didn't see that his attention was a loving gift. She took and took and wouldn't give back.

This is extremely helpful for me. To think of it this way. It helps me value myself and see the situation more clearly. You described the issue PERFECTLY.

When I asked how do I take the lead, I meant specifically in this instance regarding the plan for divorce. W says I am not initiating, but that is because I am not going to be the one to D. It isn't me that wants it.

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You asked what if your W just needed help. Well, let me ask a question in return. What do you think it would take for her to seek psychiatric therapy that dealt with whatever she claims happened in her childhood? I'll ask an easier one..What do you think it would take for her to stop her bullying/controlling behavior?

Honestly, it doesn't feel like it would take an impossible miracle to get her to go. Just a moment where she comes to her senses, realizes there is a very smooth option available to her (that she only has because she has a spouse, btw), and actually wants help. She is very conflicted in general, as discussed above, and some days would fight tooth and nail the idea of getting help and others feel desperate and consider it, from my observation anyway. I am trying to figure out how to tell her she can go to therapy on her own under my care plan and it will not go on her record (her big fear due to military career). I was not aware of this. I also thought MC would cost money. It turns out that it is ALL covered. She can go see the therapist on her own as IC and it fits under the umbrella of family counseling for insurance purposes, in this case MY counseling. That would be an important point to her and I have already done the work of finding the therapist. It's all there if she were to just agree. But it feels like the wrong time to bring it up and like it would be applying pressure, even if I'm just honestly trying to let her know about a resource available to her.

I actually had a dream last night where everything changed when I finally stood up to her and treated all of her behavior for what it really is. I do think with my W she does not have any solid support to lean on in life and really needs someone who is not going to put up with her sh!t. I think she needs to get to a certain point before even that would be functional and I honestly have no idea how close she really is. But I know I could do way better at putting her in her place. The good thing is I feel more able to do so than I ever have yet. So I am really serious about becoming the guy no one would dare cheat on for fear of the consequences. Or mistreat, etc. Like how am I so far from that guy? I hate that. No more. I believe I can become him, but I also know I will need a lot of help. Which you have provided so much and I thank you for that. I know this community is the best place for me to work on becoming that guy.

I hope I touched on the all the important parts of what you wrote. I actually started writing this a few days ago, so I'm going to include a sitch update to follow and if it feels disjointed or like all my emotions changed in 15 min, that's why.

As if that post wasn't long enough, I haven't posted any update and it feels like my sitch is on rollercoaster extreme mode.

The conversation initiated by W about me leaving never resumed. After she went out with her coworkers the next day, the following day (Friday) I went to a double feature at the movies. It is basically impossible to use the three tickets per week that come with the membership. W was standing at the door asking where I was going, why so early, was I going alone. I simply said I'm meeting a friend, see ya later, and closed the door. I did invite a new friend, but he couldn't make it. I was gone from about 5pm to 11pm. Anyway, W knows about my movie membership and assumed I was going on a date with a new "friend" to the movies. I only know this because her sister called me to tell me she had told her I was seeing someone and just went on a date to the movies, and that I had taken my wedding ring off. I did take my ring off a couple weeks ago (after she had taken off hers), because every time I saw it on my hand it was like a gut punch, even when I had managed not to be thinking about it otherwise. So into my nightstand drawer it went. I didn't even think of it like a signal I was going to date. Now I'm wondering if it was a mistake? I just didn't think much of it, sometimes I leave my ring off anyway, before all this. Regardless, W hasn't said anything to me about thinking I'm seeing someone (last year she did), just her sister. She has however made it clear she is tracking me on the credit cards when I go out and gave herself away that she was frustrated she saw nothing from my night out on Friday (because I have caught on to this).

On the potential OM front, I am still so far in the dark. I saw nothing suspicious all weekend, she didn't see anyone or go out, and I was honestly ready to declare on Sunday morning that the investigation has turned up absolutely nothing in a month, and it's time to consider the possibility that there really is no A. And then JUST in time, W finally slips, just a little. She went to the grocery store, innocent enough, but she was gone too long. When she got back, it turned out she had also gone to a sex store (very strange, atypical behavior. We have gone to one maybe twice that I can remember). Even more insane, she says they had a BOGO half off sale, and gifts me the other item! and says here's a coupon in case you want to buy more. ??? As we're standing there talking about this, within a few minutes of her getting home, her phone rings. She looks at it and says ugh, I don't want to talk to her right now (meaning her sister, who has been having her own drama over the weekend). I said, O, SIL about her sitch? And she said yes. Well, that was quite easy to verify. I asked her sister if she had just called and she said no. Finally, I caught her in a lie that was 100% proven. That said, it could mean nothing, who knows why she didn't bother or want to say who called. But then, she says her car has been having some trouble and she wants to go drive it around. She was gone for about 30 min maybe, I assume to call the person back. So that was definitely some very strange, red flag behavior. However, that is all I've got. I have been watching and watching for texting, phone calls, coming home late, etc and there is just nothing. I do leave her alone most of the time, but still.

Last night she called me on my way home from IC and asked if I could start dinner because she had got off work late and just now got to the gym. I immediately was suspicious, thinking she was finally getting lazy. I said I wasn't home yet but I can start the pot. She didn't ask where I was. She got home when she said she would and looked like she really had been at the gym, red in the face etc. She talked about her workout and who she saw there. Why she got off work late. If it's all lies, I give it a 10/10. And then she went to take a bath, didn't close the door, and then wanted me to come in and show me some new music she has found during all of her early bedtimes alone in her new bedroom (i added that part). I can confirm I hear her listening to this music and audiobooks she talks about. So there she is completely naked playing me all this music and showing me her phone to see the artists without seeming to be concerned about a message coming through or anything. Overall, she was acting really nice. She even said she had a good day and was in a good mood and had slept really well. No complaining about work.

She has been telling me about a new assignment and how she might have to leave for a few days in the coming year for exercises. But doesn't know when, only the months. The first one sounds like it will be within a month. Suddenly, it's not so convenient not to have a spouse home for the dogs. I do not know if she is accepting that she cannot force me to leave or if she has any uncertainty about it, or if she will come back demanding it again tomorrow.

My IC says I should give her choices, to make her feel less trapped, and she can be the one to choose. First choice is try to work things out, at least go to counseling and find a mutual agreement to R or D. Second, if she says no to one, then agree to D and I won't fight her on the house if she agrees to me not moving out until I graduate in May. Third, if she cannot accept anything other than immediate separation, then she is the one to leave. I mostly agree with my IC that there is no real way W can make me leave any time soon. In answer to one of Sandi's questions, W has an obligation to support her dependents and gets paid more to do so. IC says D takes 3 months, I assume this is after you file. If W wants no lawyers, she will have to do all the work of filling out the paperwork first and itemizing everything. And I know it is often rejected for silly revisions that must be made to form. So by the time we are even D, it will probably be pretty close to me graduating. Of course, W only cares about her emotions, and wants me to vanish overnight, that is all she will accept. What I do not agree with IC on, is presenting her with these choices, at least right now. Mostly because it seems to violate DB. If she is in this fantasy world, where nothing logical matters, what good are the choices. IC also said I should make it clear I am not dating someone. I am not going to try and pretend I am or anything, but I think it is beneficial for W to be unsure what I am doing or if I am still even wanting R. Rather than offer her reassurance. You guys can tell me what you think, but considering I agree with Sandi that I need to just stop hanging onto the MR, it really makes no sense.

W seems content with her new living situation in the basement, wants to cook but not eat together, and spends most of her time at home in her room with the door closed. However, she doesn't have any curtains and I can see in her window if I am in the yard with the dogs. It seems she just lays there watching tv and going to sleep really early (she does get up really early). But 99% of the time, I am not watching so who knows. If she is not harassing me, or trying to make things miserable, this is definitely more comfortable than being displaced to my grandmother's. But emotionally, I know detachment will be a lot harder. But I am serious about what I said earlier on forgetting about working on the MR and caring what W thinks or does. I am not going to be afraid anymore. I envision my new life without her everyday and what I want it to look like, and approach everything with that goal in mind. It is exciting to be able to have full control over your future. On my way out the door, my IC said "You know, the holidays are almost here, who really wants to get divorced over the holidays?". I guess W can prove how much of a grinch she really is. She even likes to say that she doesn't like Christmas. But I just don't buy it. I don't buy any of it. I have realized I am more of a saver than I thought. I feel so much desperation to rescue W from her sadness and hurt and bad choices. I know that I cannot. But I really think she's in there somewhere, and is worth saving. So I have to work constantly to change that mindset.

OMG, did I mention this rollercoaster is on whiplash mode. Nicer than anything yesterday, today she comes home, finds out about my GAL, launches into is this why I'm refusing to leave? Then asks if I know that she will owe me a year of alimony and support. So I will have that. I said good to know. Then, I know I messed up, I let her lure me into a fight. I was not emotional, but I shouldn't have even gotten into it.

She said it's so ridiculous that I won't leave. That any normal person would leave. Says AGAIN that I have family I can go too. I told her what IS ridiculous is her telling me this is HER house after 6 months of it being OURS. Of course, she threatened I would pay the mortgage starting Nov 1. She said all she owes me is the difference in her pay for the single vs dependent. She has clearly done some homework. She is unwilling to have any real discussion. It is only about forcing me out. She said she will get it done as fast as possible then, and slammed her door.

I am so lost. Maybe I should just leave her to her misery. Clearly the MR is dead. But I feel like I lose either way. My mom said I can come stay on her couch in her apartment. But living like that until May is going to be miserable. I feel hurt but W and I'm so mad about it. It made me feel really low for her tell me that any normal person would leave.

Let her go.

As you said, she has done her homework and has been thinking about this for quite some time. Your best and only option is to get out of her way. To her, you equate to every negative emotion she�s been experiencing. She thinks that by getting away from you, she will be happy again. Let her have at it.

Here�s the thing though, I think there�s a lot of underlying factors for your W that have nothing to do with you. She has some demons, 44. You didn�t break her, and you can�t fix her.

Your best bet is to detach as much as possible and protect yourself legally. Clearly she�s consulted with a lawyer, I would suggest you start interviewing lawyers as well. I would not put it past your W to try and trick you into giving up some of your legal rights. She might even dangle reconciliation in your face to get you to agree to some things that would benefit her.

Thanks, T. I know you are right. She said she did not talk to a lawyer, just read some things online.

Last night it became so clear to me what this really was--manipulation. She wouldn't have said any of this if it weren't for my GAL. She didn't like it and started up her antics. I can't believe I almost fell for it, too. I went back to getting ready, feeling like crap, considering no longer wanting to go, wondering if I should go down and talk to her, maybe propose I could work part time and we could work together to afford another place. OMG! That is exactly what she wanted! Me feeling distraught, cancelling my GAL, and coming to her to negotiate things on her terms. The good news is I did NOT fall for it and I am seeing all these things more clearly.

To top it off, one of her main points in assaulting my GAL last night was drilling me on how late I would be out. She said she had to be at work for some special thing at 5am and didn't want to be woken up by the dogs barking if I came home late. I told her it isn't a concern. That's when she decided to make it about the D. Well, it turns out this morning that she left just after 6, which is right at her normal time! Apparently, she made the whole thing up.

I had a great time GAL. I am breaking free.

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So into my nightstand drawer it went. I didn't even think of it like a signal I was going to date. Now I'm wondering if it was a mistake? I just didn't think much of it, sometimes I leave my ring off anyway, before all this. Regardless, W hasn't said anything to me about thinking I'm seeing someone (last year she did), just her sister. She has however made it clear she is tracking me on the credit cards when I go out and gave herself away that she was frustrated she saw nothing from my night out on Friday (because I have caught on to this).

Interesting how that works, isn't it? As soon as they think you are up to something on your own... making your own way, getting a life, having fun, perhaps even <gasp> finding someone else... they get all interested. Being mysterious is good, keep it up. None of her business right now, anyway. Interesting how her little "naked in the tub" music ploy came pretty soon thereafter. Only a temperature check, obviously, but, still... They will never find you so attractive as when you are walking away. The freer, better, stronger, more independent and confident person you are, the more attractive you will be to all women including, if you are still interested in her, your WW (And also the happier you will be with yourself and with your life and, in general, with everything).

I am one of those people who thinks that affairs, emotional or otherwise, are always ultimately found out and that in this day and age it is impossible to keep a secret like that forever. Your W is definitely doing some suspicious things and there is some smoke and, at the least, she is not being completely open with you, but i would have expected a bigger slip up or reveal by now. WW's typically have their heads in the clouds and don't always do the best job of covering their tracks. If your W is having an A, she is being pretty sharp about it. Maybe ask yourself how you would feel if you actually got confirmation she was texting/confiding with an OM or otherwise having an EA? Would you feel any differently about your goals/ approach and direction? What if you found out she was actively sleeping with someone else... same questions. There is merit to considering the approach of examining WON you can make peace in your mind with the "worst case scenario", and then making such peace and moving on with your life, GALs, etc. Sometimes when you DO get confirmation of infidelity, it comes in a form you can never unsee/unhear/un-experience again. There were things i heard in my own sitch that were VERY hard to hear, and that i still haven't completely gotten over, and that, even with my MR pretty healthy at this point, cause me to have feelings of hurt and resentment towards my W at times. This is not an argument for willful ignorance, but, rather, a plea to consider what your goals are, who you want to be and how your approach to your own life (let alone your MR) meshes with this.

You are getting great advice from Sandi2 and others on here... listen up, and God Bless.

hoosjim, your questions are extremely helpful. You are right about the extra pain and damage caused by confirmations of infidelity. I really have to consider if it's worth it. But I also completely agree with you that these things always reveal themselves and I also would have expected a bigger slip up by now. She would have to be almost a professional to be pulling it off with so little evidence. And considering only a year ago, she was exactly like you said, head in the clouds, oblivious apparently to how obvious she was making it, it just seems unlikely she would somehow suddenly be an expert. I will keep my eyes open, but there really just might not be an A. Just overall waywardness as Sandi discussed is possible.

I am leaving in the morning to go to my grandfather's funeral out of state. I am still fighting the bad feelings yesterday's conversation gave me. I have anxiety about her coming home today. Part of me wants to grant her wish and just stay away with my family, perhaps not totally defining how long. Right now, I am only supposed to be gone for two days. But if I am honest, this is just in hopes that it would somehow change her mind. That when she stops having this battle to fight over getting me out, I won't be able to be the bad guy anymore. That she will be here with no help and no support and find that she is not magically happier. So I feel it is a foolish thing to do for those reasons. That it is not in line with my detachment and letting go of the MR. And once I leave, I may never be able to return. At this point, I don't even feel it is ridiculous to say that I don't know if I trust leaving all my possessions and dog here with her.

After moving past my satisfaction at recognizing and fighting her manipulation, I am just feeling broken hearted. I am trying to detach and let go, but today I just feel so SAD. I am proud I am standing up for myself and not falling for her antics, but I read a post Sandi wrote me last year that talked about how I could call out her behavior and not tolerate it, but it will not change the fact that if she does no work, the MR will not improve. This remains true today. The MR I dream of is just that--a dream. I guess I am mourning over a fantasy.

Sorry you�re hurting today, 44. I don�t have any advice but just wanted you to know that you are in my thoughts.

Hang in there man, you�re gonna be ok.

Thanks for the support T, means so much.

Today is just a journal day. As I said, yesterday was really rough. I wrote my last post just before W came home. I think the fact that the previous convo affected me so much even 24 hours later shows I still have a long way to go with detachment. Even though she wasn�t able to bend me at the time, I was still fighting feeling bendy a day later. As you could see with my frantic thoughts about leaving and giving her what she wants. I also had the extra weight of my own personal stuff, namely this funeral and the travel. But back to that I�m a minute.

When W came home yesterday she went wordlessly into her room and locked the door. The bendiness intensified. I tried to ignore/fight it. After about an hour, I succumbed to the first of any lapses in what I would deem pursuit. Don�t worry, it is very minor. I have been having an issue getting a dentist appointment because W is my sponsor and I need her defense login to find a provider. So I chose this as my excuse to make contact. I knocked on the door and asked if I could come in. She said no, what do I want. I said I needed help with the login. She was extremely grouchy and I thought for a minute that she just wasn�t going to answer and I would have to walk away. Turns out she was looking it up I guess and did give me the info. I said thank you and turned to leave (remember this conversation is through a closed door). Then she asked what I was having for dinner. Still using her best �I hate you� voice. I told her I was having leftovers. She said IF I made her some (not a direct request), could I leave it outside the door. I immediately said absolutely not, if she wants me to serve her dinner, she has to at least say thank you to my face. I know, I shouldn�t be serving her dinner at all but at this point it was a silly game about the closed door and I forced her to give in. She agreed.

I went back upstairs to heat the leftovers and she then texted what about xx or XX? (Options for take out). My anxiety was so high yesterday I had trouble eating much and I thought this sounded good. So I chose one (skipped the indecisive crap) and said I would go, tell me her order. She said we should order online and I should come look at the menu with her. So I went back down, the door is now open, and went into the room where she was laying in the bed, in only underwear. Similar to the music bath episode from the other day, I was then very close and looking at her phone with her. Some messages came in from her mom and the coworker I originally thought could be OM (more on this in a minute). She again did not seem concerned about any messages I might see. So we made our order and off I went to pick it up (I know I know, I said I cracked a little didn�t I?). At that point she was still in little kid tantrum mode, trying to be mad and grumpy. When I got back, the mood was gone, she had gotten dressed and moved into the living room downstairs and was playing video games with previously mentioned coworker.

I will take my aside to discuss the coworker...if you read the post where I was confused about who this person was, it is because typically I only hear her coworkers by last name (military). This one has an extremely common first name that could be either gender. It has all become clear since that this is the girl that sped in and picked her up that day she went to the bar. Seems she is getting pretty chummy with this girl, who surprise surprise just got divorced. Fantastic. I now suspect this is where she is getting her D info from, I don�t even think she has actually done online research regarding military pay support/alimony etc. It seems the little texting I have seen is largely with this girl.

Back to the story, she was on the game chat playing with her and I brought the food in. She said thank you and I immediately went upstairs to eat. Last time I hung around down there, when she first got back, was when she moved into the guest room due to my encroachment

Oops, I pulled a Sandi and hit submit...

..due to my encroachment on the common space. As soon as I was sitting down to eat and she called up asking where I was eating. I told her the kitchen and she asked why. Then she said I should come downstairs. So I took my food down and sat at the other end of the couch. She unplugged the game chat to tell me about some secret work stuff (again, I know I�m not supposed to let her talk to me about her day, but it�s really hard when this seems to be the main urge she has to talk to me. I�m working on it). So I ate and listened and then she invited me to join the game. I played with her and new BFF for about a half hour and then BFF went to bed and W asked if I wanted to keep playing. I said one more game and then I have to go bed to be up early for my flight. After I went to bed, she texted asking if I need a ride to the airport and what time. I told her no thanks, the flight is very early, I will just park my car there. She said okay let her know if I change my mind and she is going to sleep �just in case�. Um it was 10 pm I�m not sure when I was going to change my mind between then and 3:30 am when I had to leave. I relied thank you but I should be good. Goodnight.

Since this post is already way too long, I won�t even discuss the nightmare I experienced at the airport. But W texted asking if I made it and I told her a brief summary of the situation. She said I�m so sorry. This was all at about 4:30 Am. She texted again a bit later to say she didn�t want to get up and was going in to work late because she can and deserves it (she recently became the boss). I said enjoy the perks, taking off now. And that was that. I am on layover now and the travel situation has been so bad and my anxiety about the funeral is high, I don�t even care about the sitch at the moment. Looking forward to these couple days away from it (but not looking forward to them in general) and tidying up some of these slip ups.

I see a pattern that I want to attempt to point out. You seem to be somewhat blind to how she sets you up to be manipulated, plus you rationalize and give yourself permission to go along with what she wants. Look at the following:

First, is the set up: "Then she asked what I was having for dinner. Still using her best �I hate you� voice. I told her I was having leftovers." I have seen her use this particular method to set you up, many times last year. It starts with her getting you to serve her a meal.

Going into manipulation #1: "She said IF I made her some, could I leave it outside the door".

Rationalization #1: "(not a direct request)"

" I immediately said absolutely not, if she wants me to serve her dinner, she has to at least say thank you to my face". It appears that you totally miss how you are being played (manipulated). You want to make her thank you to your face. That would be fine, except you miss the bigger picture of how you are doing her bidding to get a measly thank-you.

Manipulation #2: "she then texted what about xx or XX? (Options for take out)".

Rationalization #2: "My anxiety was so high yesterday I had trouble eating much and I thought this sounded good".

Manipulation #3: "She said we should order online and I should come look at the menu with her".

By this time, you appear to stop rationalizing, and just do what she says. It must be very draining to live in this type of situation.

Manipulation #4: "So I went back down, the door is now open, and went into the room where she was laying in the bed, in only underwear". "So we made our order and off I went to pick it up".

"Back to the story, she was on the game chat playing with her and I brought the food in. She said thank you and I immediately went upstairs to eat". So, you got your thank-you, but look at the hoops she made you jump through before getting a measly thank-you.

Four times she manipulated you in a few short minutes, and it was all hooked to you serving her that meal. I hope you can understand that the meal was not important to her. That was simply a tool she used to play the manipulation game. You get distracted by other things, like the phone.......or making her say thank-you to your face. But let me tell ya, this girl was in full control here, and enjoys playing you.

I simply point this out. It is not to harass you. If it helps you see how she works you, where she starts, and how you give yourself permission to follow whatever she says.........then hopefully, that is the beginning of awareness and being your own person. I am not beating you down (((44))). I am not saying you are less of a man. Sometimes we all experience a certain blindness to those we love.

My heart goes with you as you attend the memorial services for your grandfather.

Thank you, Sandi. It helps me SO much to see it clearly. And be called out for my own rationalization. I knew I was weak that day and did an especially poor job. You talk a lot about how she wears me down and even though I stood strong the day prior, I still felt those effects. I think I can get better at this. I feel myself growing and becoming stronger, and better at seeing everything clearly for what it is.

The memorial service was really nice and as expected very hard. I did not expect to feel emotional about W not being there with me. But that was actually one of the hardest parts. Hearing stories about my grandfather, some I had never heard, remembering where I come from and not having W there to share it with. And support me. She did send a message saying she was thinking of me and my family and if I needed to talk, she was there. So frustrating. How many times she has said she is there, and then apologized for not being there, because she knows she isn�t. She also texted about several other things and wanted to have chit chat convos. I have to not even think about any of this because I will always reach the same confusing place of failing to understand why she wants me gone, to stay here with my family, and I go for only two days and she can�t keep away.

I am on way back home now. Much smoother travel experience so far, thankfully. W sent a text saying she was washing MY bedding. She also said she laid in the bed one morning. I feel pretty confident nothing fishy happened while I was away. She was on the group chat we have for gaming with all our friends and seemed to be doing that most of the weekend. If there is no A, I feel much more conflicted about responding to her messages and listening to her work talk etc. She even �scheduled� with me to talk about work stuff when I got back because she couldn�t tell me over the phone and has a lot to say. My main focus is avoiding being manipulated.

44,

I'm curious as to why if she's having an A has any bearing on how you respond to messages and interact?

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Thank you, Sandi. It helps me SO much to see it clearly. And be called out for my own rationalization.

Maybe it is a coping method, IDK. I see LBH's with a WW rationalize why he does whatever the WW says, and I think it's more common for men with NGS who have been bullied or extremely manipulated. I don't know if he recognizes what he's doing at the time. Whenever I read a post from a LBH who is rationalizing why he gave in to whatever his WW said...... it sounds like excuses, to me. However, some guys can get offended and get defensive if they are accused of making excuses.

I think you do it, in order to just tolerate living with her. Perhaps unconsciously, it gives you a way out, rather than having to deal with the bigger picture. She is a cat who loves to play with the mouse. Guess who the mouse is? Yep, and that's the bigger picture.

To use the recent posting as an example, I think most men would count it as being petty if they chose to act independent of his WW's "suggestions" (cough-cough). They would probably see the easiest way is simply go along with whatever she says do about dinner, and not make a big deal out of it. I get it. Once is okay. But how many years have you been the mouse she jerks around? "Go fix me something to eat". "No, go get me carryout". "Come by my room, first, and let me decide what I want you to order and pick up for me".

Here's the thing. This time, as well as last year, she announces the MR is over and it's IHS. However, she doesn't want to conduct it like a marriage separation. She wants you to be her buddy, whenever it suits her. If you were physically separated, would you be running around trying to accommodate her when she wants to divorce you!

I suggest you design a plan of action (you don't share with her), and right up close to the top of the list should be....No more accommodating her! She wants a separation, so conduct it as such. Why? B/c you need the space from her so that you can begin to see objectively, and become mentally/emotionally stronger.

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She also texted about several other things and wanted to have chit chat convos............................

She even �scheduled� with me to talk about work stuff when I got back because she couldn�t tell me over the phone and has a lot to say.

Seriously?

She really means she wants to have a monologue while you sit there and listen to her gripe & blow off steam about her sister, her co-workers, etc. She doesn't want to hear about your feelings. Remember what I say about how selfish WW's are. This is another way she shows that selfishness. She couldn't give you compassion or moral support at the funeral, but she's telling you what you are going to do before you even get back home.....and it's all about her. My question to you is why does any if this confuse you? I see the same WW that I saw last year.

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W sent a text saying she was washing MY bedding. She also said she laid in the bed one morning.

She's messing with your head. And so far, it seems to be working.

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If there is no A, I feel much more conflicted about responding to her messages and listening to her work talk etc.

What????

So, as long as you have no proof she's doing some guy, you should keep kissing her a$$?

YOU ARE IN-HOUSE SEPARATED! SHE TREATS YOU LIKE CRAP! SHE DOESN'T RESPECT YOU! Any questions?

LH and Sandi, I don�t know why I get so caught up on the A. I guess this is part of the rationalization. If there is an A, it is a lot easier to stop the rationalizing because I can just keep telling myself �HELLO, she�s having an A!�

To be clear, I am not conflicted about whether or not to keep kissing her a$$. Maybe the question is what constitutes a$$ kissing. Do I tell her point blank do not talk to me about work? Do I become unwilling to cooperate with her on anything? If she is hostile and manipulative like she was the night of my GAL, I am clear. But what if she is nice?

Today, I told her I would not be the one to go get food.

I told her I wouldn�t go and a bit later she asked what I wanted and said she will get it. No bad attitude about it. She also did my laundry. I agree with Sandi on making a plan of action that starts with no accommodation. The second point will likely be as much GAL as possible simply to avoid being available for any of these issues to occur.

44,

Let�s start with a hypothetical and pretend this was a friend of yours who betrayed your trust a year ago. You were able to work it out with him and you decided to buy a house together. 6 months after buying a house he decides he wants to terminate the friendship and kick you out of the house. Would you listen to him vent up work? Would you chit chat over text? What you get him food?

How would you interact with him in the house until he bought you out and you got another place?

Originally Posted by sandi2

I think you do it, in order to just tolerate living with her. Perhaps unconsciously, it gives you a way out, rather than having to deal with the bigger picture.

I think that bolded part is it. I really, REALLY did not want my XW to move out. As bad as life was after BD, leaving everything the same still would have been the easiest way forward. So I can definitely sympathize with the sentiments the LBS is feeling in this regard. BUT, maintaining the status quo is just extending the misery. There is no joy in a sexless, loveless marriage and continuing to let the WAS cake-eat and manipulate and play games is not the right path forward. There's no personal growth, and there's no repair to the relationship. Something has got to change in the situation, and the LBS is the one with the power to change things. Breaking out of the status quo is hard and even painful, but things have to change before healing and growth can begin.

I think you are all right. I have been afraid of establishing a new normal. Afraid of being friend zoned and her getting used to be "separated". Well the fear is gone. I went to the gym with a new workout buddy today and it did me wonders. I am so OVER W and her crap. She said she would go to the store today to get ingredients for dinner and on the way home tells me she didn't go. Now I had to go on the way home from the gym and I am no longer even going to cook the dinner. All she does is let me down.

Today she also asked about my plans for Thanksgiving. I told her My family has plans, but the cost and travel is a concern. She said don't worry about cost, go if I want. Then she said her mom needs to know if she will be joining them, but that means I am here with the dogs, alone for Thanksgiving. Was frustrated I didn't have an immediate answer, had the audacity to say this whole situation was frustrating her. She also mentioned a trip she is apparently planning with a guy she met while she was away. Immediately I am red flagged. This was my original suspect for a potential OM (albeit with a few major flaws to the theory). I haven't heard of him since she got back and thought I was crazy. Now she tells me they have been trying to go to Vegas (remember her gambling addiction) and he offered to buy her plane ticket a few weeks ago when they had a three day weekend! She said it was too short notice and maybe they will go for Veteran's Day. I told her we needed to discuss finances. I am worried about the debt that is in now in my name as we had a plan to consolidate some costs from the move and not pay interest until next year. I am no longer comfortable letting it sit and told her I need a large portion paid monthly. She said no problem, give her the plan and she will pay (my plan to come up with, apparently, even though it is OUR debt). Then she says she will make it work, she is not limiting herself if she wants to take trips. I guess she knows how to create money out of thin air now.

I am feeling enraged and fed up. Honestly, if I had evidence of the A right now, I would tell her to leave. I don't care about the risk of her not paying. I will figure it out. I am not going to sit taking care of the house and dogs while she takes trips to see potential OM. No way. I'm not Mr Nice Guy anymore, maybe I will fight her for the house and everything else. She set herself up to be screwed by divorce. Why not give it to her. I am venting a bit right now, but this feels like a turning point for me. The only way I will ever consider recon is if she is on her knees begging and I don't see it happening. In the meantime I don't want to waste another ounce of my time or energy on her and all this misery she has created. I am so angry she has caused this daily distress for me, TWICE in two years now. And to think she is probably down there messaging some other guy, I just can't. Someone talk me down from the ledge.

I've got you brother. My hand is firmly on your shoulder holding you away from that ledge.

One thing I've learned is don't do anything in anger in this situation. Examine the 'energy', or motivation, behind what you're thinking. If the energy is anger (and you're perfectly right and entitled to be angry mind you), then dont do anything except something to release that. Keep repeating the word 'calm' over and over and over. Chuck on some headphones and play your fave music at full tilt til your thoughts subside, or listen to some thought provoking podcasts. Have you tried Dr Robert Glover, author of NMMNG?

By all means, establish your boundaries about her cakeeating, but don't do it in a fit of anger. You're on the higher road, remember.

Keep your chin up mate

Cheers, DS

Hang in there, 44. That anger is normal, I've struggled with it as well.

One thing I've learned is that when I react to that anger and lash out, it NEVER goes well for me and I end up regretting it. What I do now is go to the gym, put on my headphones, and lift weights until I'm exhausted. It really does help burn the anger off.

DS and T, your support means everything. Thank you. The reminders about what to do with the anger are extremely helpful. I have managed to unleash none of it on W so far.

Except I did briefly snoop on her computer. Still no access to messages so it's largely useless, but after our talk yesterday I knew she was likely looking at travel plans. Well, lo and behold, she has booked a ticket for $650 but not to Vegas like she claimed. Some city I have never even heard of (and I am good with geography) in the most random state you can imagine. This is more money than I think I have ever spent on one plane ticket, outside of international travel. And it is for one weekend. I also asked her if she had discussed the plans with the guy last night as she said she would, and she said no, she hasn't made any plans yet. Another lie for the books. As everyone has told me, the slow watching and waiting will always turn up the truth. I just can't fill in the blanks quite yet. None of it makes any sense. But you don't spend that kind of money to visit friends, right?

Originally Posted by 44tries2

Honestly, if I had evidence of the A right now, I would tell her to leave.

44, she's having an affair. She's done everything but show you pictures. She told you she's planning a trip with him, she's told you she's in contact with him, you caught her lying about buying a ticket and lying about the trip destination. What more do you need? Why is this important, well because you are torturing yourself snooping, you need to just accept the affair is in full swing and quit snooping and do whatever you feel you need to do. I am sorry you're going through this, it's ugly business for sure. Just plan to get your finances squared away and do what you have to do to protect yourself because she may go full GGW and engage in the wild spending that goes with it.

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Someone talk me down from the ledge.

It's OK to be angry. Of course you are, who wouldn't be? Try to process the anger in healthy ways (boxing, lifting weights, running, maybe find a private place and just scream your head off, I actually did that a couple of times). Don't take any actions while you're angry, give yourself time to cool off and then decide what you want to do.

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Maybe the question is what constitutes a$$ kissing.

NOTHING!!! Absolutely nothing! Don't confuse kissing a$$ with kindness, love, patience, or cooperation. Kissing her a$$ demonstrates weakness and it empowers her bullying. She knows you are a$$ kissing! There is absolutely nothing attractive about any man kissing a$$. This is why you have suffered with a sexually starved marriage. She lost respect for you as a man, b/c of this dynamic where she was calling the shots and you were kissing her a$$, and it killed the sexual attraction.

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If she is hostile and manipulative like she was the night of my GAL, I am clear. But what if she is nice?

Let me be clear.......she is not nice. She plays you, uses you for whatever benefits her in any given moment. You are not clear about anything that has to do with her. Just b/c she is not showing her hatefulness when she tells you to run get her something, or to keep her company, or whatever..........does not mean she is being nice. It may be a moment one might identify as being "civil", but based on what you've told us about her..........I believe you go all melty-cheese whenever she behaves a bit civil. That's what gets you into trouble every time. You think she's being nice and you let down your guard. She's not nice, 44. She disrespects you, and you've lied to yourself until you can't see the truth.

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Today, I told her I would not be the one to go get food.

If she is going to call this situation an IHS, then conduct yourself accordingly. You don't have kids, so you don't have to eat together, have cozy talks (or in your case........she wants to do all the talking and you do all the listening), or show up together at social/family events. Stop serving cake. Okay, so she went to the store and she washed something of yours........while it may be rare for her to do it, don't try to make it some type of sign. You don't even have to do something for her. In fact, whenever she does something you see as being along the "nicer" side, you had better sharpen your senses b/c this woman is setting you up to use later. It might be later that night, or next week/month......but it's coming.

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Except I did briefly snoop on her computer. Still no access to messages so it's largely useless, but after our talk yesterday I knew she was likely looking at travel plans. Well, lo and behold, she has booked a ticket for $650 but not to Vegas like she claimed. Some city I have never even heard of (and I am good with geography) in the most random state you can imagine. This is more money than I think I have ever spent on one plane ticket, outside of international travel. And it is for one weekend. I also asked her if she had discussed the plans with the guy last night as she said she would, and she said no, she hasn't made any plans yet. Another lie for the books. As everyone has told me, the slow watching and waiting will always turn up the truth. I just can't fill in the blanks quite yet. None of it makes any sense. But you don't spend that kind of money to visit friends, right?

It makes perfect sense to me. You don't want to believe it, so you go into denial. Your wife is going away to be with another man, 44. Open your eyes.

I think another thing that may cause confusion for you is that you want to use the softer actions/methods you were applying last year when you had a fake reconciliation. That period has passed and things have shifted to a different phase. Now, you have to apply the last resort technique, and I mean the latter part of LRT. No more playing friends, b/c it confuses you. No more accommodating her. No more Mr. Nice Guy!

Forget filling in the blanks, b/c you would rationalize it if you saw living proof. I think you told yourself as long as she wasn't in an A then you could cope with how she treated you. It is not working.

Focus on what priorities you need to set to stabilize your emotional & physical well-being, while still meeting the demands of your studies.

Have a plan of activity (GAL) while she is gone on her "trip".

We are all on the same page. Some shake ups in this update...

I managed to calm down and digest the affair after finding the plane ticket info this morning. But it all went out the window when I heard her on the phone tonight. She was helping me cook dinner after I got home from GAL and of course it was 7pm, her new bedtime and she had to run off. Whatever. A bit later I go downstairs to go to the office, which is right next to �her bedroom�. She had music playing but I could clearly hear her on the phone. I honestly could make myself crazy wondering what exactly I heard, but it was a mumbly, intimate sounding, flirtatious conversation. Lots of talk about being too distracted to focus at work... It went on for a while, until finally she came out of the room and asked if I was doing homework when she saw me in the office. I said yes, and then (the part where I just couldn�t bite my tongue) I asked who she was talking to on the phone. She said xxx coworker. I said wow pretty weird stuff to be saying to xxx. She asked what I was talking about, acting like I�m crazy. The fuse is practically non existent so I knew immediately this was headed for an R convo as soon as she talked about the �discomfort� of being in the same house.

Well guys, I told her to get out. I said I know exactly what�s going on and I�m done hearing her ridiculous speeches about why I won�t leave. She�s having an A and will be the one to go. She did not go down easy, as you may have predicted. She chose the neither confirm nor deny approach on the A, and routinely turned it back on me leaving and it being the obvious answer. I wouldn�t budge, and probably used too many words to say no I�m not the one cleaning up this mess. Well at one point she slammed the door in my face while she started packing and was getting very emotional. I left the room and let her storm the house in her snow boots collecting everything she owns that she can fit in her car. Of course, it didn�t really end there and she roped me back in for the second half.

She brought out some divorce checklists she had printed and started waving them around the kitchen screaming. She said does she need to hire a lawyer, how is it going to go, tell her now. We need to start the process. Ultimately, it was a lot of back and forth of her pushing and me not saying anything different. Finally I proposed a plan I had discussed with my therapist that if I do not fight for the house, I can stay until May when I graduate. At first this was unacceptable and still not part of her vision. But that was my offer and eventually she had to consider it. She said she doesn�t know how the finances will work and she will only be paying the bare minimum, but this includes the mortgage and anything else I need. She will rent a different place. At the end she asked me if she could stay for the night and find a place tomorrow. I sat for a good while until I said okay. She also told me near the end, when it calmed down a bit, that she blew up at her boss and has been assigned anger management classes and is also seeking overall therapy on her own. She said she found out she can go off record (not sure how since I was told otherwise) and is going to start. She kept saying she is a piece of sh!t and just overall seemed so angry and full of self hatred.

Anyway, I feel scared about all this but it doesn�t seem like I�m in danger of her not paying for the home. And she will be the one to get a separate place, and I maintain the home. This feels like a win. The problem is the inevitable reality she can�t afford it and she already asked if it was feasible for me to work part time. She said she didn�t want me to have to work a bad job, I just told her I would look at options. Either way, party�s over and she has to face reality. At least she is actually discussing real options now rather than her one way only option I have rejected 100 times. She will give up everything if she wants this separation. And I have given her no choice because I told her I want her out. I expect to feel a lot more heat tomorrow. And I�m still not sure it I did everything wrong and you all can tear me apart.

So sorry to hear of the latest developments, 44.

Again, your W has issues that have nothing to do with you. And until she is willing to admit she has issues and needs to work on them, and then actually does work on them in therapy etc, this is who she will be and what you can expect from her.

Detach, let her go, and keep working on yourself my friend. You have a bright future ahead of you.

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At the end she asked me if she could stay for the night and find a place tomorrow. I sat for a good while until I said okay.

She should have found a motel. You really can't give her an inch, b/c she will take a mile every time.

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She also told me near the end, when it calmed down a bit, that she blew up at her boss and has been assigned anger management classes and is also seeking overall therapy on her own. She said she found out she can go off record (not sure how since I was told otherwise) and is going to start. She kept saying she is a piece of sh!t and just overall seemed so angry and full of self hatred.

Okay, in this one quote about what she's saying to you, can you see the point where she starts playing on your sympathy?

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Anyway, I feel scared about all this but it doesn�t seem like I�m in danger of her not paying for the home.

Previously you have said the military will pretty much take care of you, so what exactly do you fear? I'm just asking, so that I can better understand the LBS's frame of mind.

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This feels like a win. The problem is the inevitable reality she can�t afford it and she already asked if it was feasible for me to work part time.

She has torn the marriage apart, and has spent a lot of money, so she really can't tell you to get a part time job to help pay the bills.......which is WW talk that means you will be helping her. She has to clean up her side of the street. Don't fold under emotional pressure, b/c she's going to play on your heart. You are not required to come up with options for her, b/c she fired you. If she asks again about you working, I suggest you bluntly tell her, "NO". She will try to get you to feel sorry for her, and that's why she is talking about taking anger management, etc.

I am proud of you, 44. I know this has been very hard for you. I know it is not what you wanted. Keep your eyes wide open and don't trust anything she says.

Thank you T and Sandi. It is extremely difficult, but I did what I had to do. It doesn't stop me from second guessing myself. What if I had just not asked who was on the phone? It just all feels inevitable.

As far as the military taking care of me, it is really just an obligation on W to take care of her dependents. I fear not receiving money from her to pay for anything, but I agree that at least a portion I can have garnished. It feels crazy it would even come to that and I guess that's why I fear it. Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that there is a huge financial concern. Mainly, I do not see how she will pay my tuition next semester, so if I did get a part time job, realistically it would be to pay for that. Maybe this makes it more acceptable for me to do, IDK. Ultimately it is my responsibility to make sure I get this degree and where I want to be as fast as possible.

I have not heard from her today. I am in a state of peace and shock, with a huge pool of emotions simmering just beneath.

NC from W today. This would be the first day in a very, very long time. Perhaps over a year. I am good with it. I feel very calm that I am in my own home and taking care of my dogs and my own personal tasks. I have no idea where she is, but I suspect she is sleeping on her new BFFs couch. If she does get an apartment and needs furniture, she will face the reality of moving it out of this house. It all still feels so surreal. I made the mistake of reading the letter she wrote me a couple months ago. It�s unbelievable it could go from that to another A so quickly. I think back to her saying during BD that I was gone all summer and she �preferred it�. What a load of BS. I truly cannot believe she would do this again.

I am going full on GAL tonight. Out on the town with some new friends. Only thing I�m stressing about a little is money. She took my credit card that is on her account. I still have ways to use it via Apple Pay and such, but I do not know about it. I am hesitant to make any purchases on my own cards as I don�t even know if she will continue paying them. Majority of our cards are in my name and we use them for all purchases, plus the one in her name that she has now taken back the physical card. The last thing is her expensive plane ticket. Do I say anything about this? Is she seriously going to cash out her retirement so she can take this trip (she mentioned potentially needing to do it to pay for everything)? At this point, I could just not speak to her for another week and not even know whether or not she goes. But I do know she paid extra for insurance in case she wanted to cancel and get a refund.

Honestly it�s probably better for you if there is NC, 44.

Get out and GAL like crazy!

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Only thing I�m stressing about a little is money. She took my credit card that is on her account. I still have ways to use it via Apple Pay and such, but I do not know about it. I am hesitant to make any purchases on my own cards as I don�t even know if she will continue paying them. Majority of our cards are in my name and we use them for all purchases, plus the one in her name that she has now taken back the physical card.

The way I see it is if she took your card to her account, then don't try to access that account to pay for a night of GAL. If it was used like a joint bank account, then apparently, she doesn't care if you have food or other necessities of life, since she took your card. If I had to guess about all those other accounts that are in your name, I'd guess she has no immediate intentions of paying them off. Plus, since she didn't give you her cards, there's a real good chance she could max out your accounts, for things like........an expensive plane ticket.

I'm going to say this again. Do what you need to do to protect yourself. This should be your number one priority. The minute she didn't give you her cards to your account, your alarms should have sounded. We tell people all the time to take measures in protecting CC charges, financial savings account, retirement, properties, etc., etc. She's way ahead of you, 44. Come Monday morning, you better get on it. Find out what you have.......what she's used.......where you stand with all your stuff.

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The last thing is her expensive plane ticket. Do I say anything about this?

Whatcha gonna say? Listen 44, she looks at it as her money to spend anyway she wants. It makes no difference the terms the two of you might have had previously. She's in la-la land and will do anything to be with the OM.

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Is she seriously going to cash out her retirement so she can take this trip (she mentioned potentially needing to do it to pay for everything)?

She is likely to do anything. If she's already mentioning her retirement, then don't be surprised. I know of a local WW who cashed out her retirement, gave up her professional career, and left her H and children to move to the other side of the country to live with a man she had never met face to face. So, do I think your WW would have any problem cashing out her retirement? No, I don't. It doesn't mean she will, but I think you are giving her too much credit to think logically......and/or do the honorably thing.

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At this point, I could just not speak to her for another week and not even know whether or not she goes.

Huh?

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But I do know she paid extra for insurance in case she wanted to cancel and get a refund.

Which means??????

I should clarify, Sandi, that she did give me back the cards she had from my accounts. So it went both ways. We will see about her intent to pay them within the next few days as they are due. My guess is she won�t have enough to pay the whole balance, but she will pay what she can. I hear what you are saying and will protect myself. But I truly am not concerned about her maxing out my accounts for her plane tickets etc. She most definitely does not want me to know about them or have documentation of it, for one.

I hear you about it being pointless to confront her about the plane ticket and that�s why I have not done it. However, I think part of the reason she was so tight lipped about not admitting or discussing the A is because she does not know how much I know and is calling my bluff in a way. I won�t lie and say part of me doesn�t fantasize about telling her to have fun in xxx state and eliminate any possibility in her mind that I don�t really know anything. I realize this is classic LBS thoughts thinking we can ruin the trip by sending ice into their veins when in reality she probably does not care.

Yesterday she asked what time she could come by the house to grab some things when I would not be there. She then actually asked me if I had time to pack her stuff! I told her I do not and that was that. I went out GAL and wasn�t even thinking about her while she was there. I do still feel there is some testing, such as asking if I would help her pack. Or the fact she asked if I dug in the trash for her depressing note she told me she wrote while I was at the funeral. I had the thought that she told me that as some game so I would go looking and sure enough she asked if I did the night I kicked her out. She also said that night, that I do not know her. But the fact is I feel like I know her better than ever and can see exactly how she works.

Originally Posted by 44tries2

She also said that night, that I do not know her. But the fact is I feel like I know her better than ever and can see exactly how she works.

When I told my wife I love her, she said I don�t because I don�t know her anymore. Then last week, when she felt that everybody was painting her as the bad guy she told me �you know me� when trying to highlight our shared values.

You don�t know me, you know me. This thing has taught me logic and reason, which I value a lot, are completely alien to how somebody feels and acts due to their emotions.

Just to echo what's been said here, it is hard to evaluate what the S is thinking when they contradict themselves and seemingly say one thing, forget it and say the opposite some time later. It is frustrating to the S on the receiving end (i.e. you, 44).

The best thing is to try to stop yourself over-thinking. It's impossible sometimes, but try to get used to immediately switching to doing a GAL activity, however small or insignificant, then you'll get used to it. You'll relax more and will be mentally prepared for situations like this and will be able to converse with your S in the right way. You know her, so you know how to speak to her.

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But I truly am not concerned about her maxing out my accounts for her plane tickets etc. She most definitely does not want me to know about them or have documentation of it, for one.

I simply used the plane ticket as an example. Some WW's will charge for groceries, clothes, gas, and other every day things, while they pay cash or use a secret CC or account to cover their affair expenses.......and/or other addictions. She plans to go to Vega$! You say you are not concerned, but I'm telling you that you should be concerned. LBH's get wiped out b/c they never believed their WW would be so ruthless.

Anyway, what I really want to caution you about is thinking you know her. Tell me why she most definitely does not want you to know about the tickets? Why would she care? I mean, you are separated now.........right? So, what can you do that would cause her fear of you finding out?

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I won�t lie and say part of me doesn�t fantasize about telling her to have fun in xxx state and eliminate any possibility in her mind that I don�t really know anything.

Well, get yourself situated and financially protected........and you can tell her anything you want to say! It's not going to change her waywardness. It won't get you respect. This is what some LBH's don't get. They seem to have an incredible urge to tell their WW they know about the affair or whatever, b/c they don't want her thinking she's pulled the wool over his eyes. I get it. However, it does not earn any of her respect for him. If it makes the H feel better about himself, that's fine, but until he is financially protected, I recommend he holds his cards close to his chest.

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Yesterday she asked what time she could come by the house to grab some things when I would not be there. She then actually asked me if I had time to pack her stuff!

See her sense of entitlement?

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I do still feel there is some testing, such as asking if I would help her pack. Or the fact she asked if I dug in the trash for her depressing note she told me she wrote while I was at the funeral. I had the thought that she told me that as some game so I would go looking and sure enough she asked if I did the night I kicked her out.

You may be right, but I don't see it as testing. The packing her stuff was coming from a sense of entitlement. You have always been ready to accommodate her. This is how you believed a spouse shows love for the other one. But she abused it and now she acts like a spoiled bratty kid. The other part is not a test, in the way we warn LBS's about emotional temperature testing. However, I agree that she sees it as a game, and it is how she gets her kicks. She enjoys teasing or haunting you in a wicked sort of way. It's another example of her manipulative skills.

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She also said that night, that I do not know her. But the fact is I feel like I know her better than ever and can see exactly how she works.

I don't want to give you the creeps, but..........I think she could be referring to her capabilities. By that, I mean that there is a side of her you've not fully seen in action. I hope I'm wrong. There have been other waywards to make similar remarks to the H.........like taking a jab at him.

Originally Posted by Sandi2

Anyway, what I really want to caution you about is thinking you know her. Tell me why she most definitely does not want you to know about the tickets? Why would she care? I mean, you are separated now.........right? So, what can you do that would cause her fear of you finding out?

Just evidence of the ticket could be enough for me to go to her leadership and say I am concerned about irresponsible financial moves. Not to mention part of the documentation for a case of adultery. IDK how she wouldn't be a LITTLE nervous to know that I have this. Previously, she has had no idea what I really know or have in the way of evidence. Anyway, the point is not really intimidation.

I did end up confronting her about the ticket. Because I do not like the fact that she took the money that she first gave me to pay some of the debt in my name. And it happens to be almost the same amount as the ticket. First, she simply told me she was not taking a trip this weekend and if she went anywhere it would be to her parents. Then, after I said so you cancelled your plane ticket? she said I have made it clear I will ruin her life and she is just trying to keep her job and find somewhere to live. I said I am also concerned about my life, and credit, being ruined. And you secretly buying plane tickets for large sums of money while taking back similarly large sums that you had earmarked for debt, is alarming and in acceptable. She said she is not trying to ruin my life and will pay off everything in my name before her own. Then she immediately sent me $500. Said she is "really f**king sorry" and is "figuring it all out".

She then asked if I wanted her to cancel the house repairs scheduled for tomorrow. They will be going on her card and she thinks it is worthwhile for house resale and lowering utility bills. I told her she can do what she wants with her account and ultimately she decided to go ahead with it. She then requested a clearer picture of all bills and accounts, and to have everything on auto pay (bills) consolidated onto her card rather than mine. She did throw in some self pitying crap like how she also needs car repair or she will be car-less soon, but she will "figure that out". And she said will leave me alone, all she requests is time to get stuff when she needs it and to see "her" dogs. So that's where we are.

OMG, I do not know how I have been so incredibly dense to have never considered checking the phone bill. It is on auto pay, is paperless, it just never even occurred to me because for all intents and purposes it doesn't physically exist. But it does if I log into the app and actually look. I am relieved that I have finally seen all I need to see, in person, with my own two eyes. Hours and hours of phone conversations, and a pretty good picture of when it started. The OM's number begins appearing about a week before BD, and one week after I visited. One week, and she decided to throw it all away. It's unbelievable. Despite already knowing, I am still in shock to have finally confirmed it. Now I just have to kill the urge to call him and tell him his career is over.

I don't know why it's so hard for me to believe. I mean this is the second time, for Pete's sake! But I'm blown away. I told my therapist about the letter she wrote me 6 weeks prior to BD and her begging me to come visit a mere 3 weeks prior. I think she finally understood why I am so blindsided. I can honest to God say that I did not feel at all insecure in the MR when she left in August (this is not to say that I totally trusted her, just that I knew she was "clean" and was putting in some effort). There were no bad signs. We were better than we had ever been since the last A, and probably even before. But here I am, roadkill once again.

44,

I don't think what happened to you is uncommon. I think part of her wanted it to work out but the feelings weren't there the way she wanted them to be. It's very common for couples in trouble to but a new house hoping that it will bring them happiness. My ex gave me a anniversary card at the end of June saying "thank you for the best 15 years of my life and I look forward to many more". Then bombed me in July. WTF happened in a month? The truth is she probably wrote what she did because she thought it was the right thing to do and she maybe wanted to believe it. Don't spend another minute thinking about that letter. My advice to you is let her go. I can 100% absolutely promise you that being divorced is better then how you are living right now.

LH, after reading many stories here, I at least partially agree with you. I don't even think it was just her wanting to believe it. I believe there was a part of her that did and meant it sincerely. But there was also her waywardness that won out in the end. Triggered by meeting another OM and that other part of her died immediately because she is addicted.

So W is leaving to OM tomorrow. How am I supposed to survive the weekend knowing where she is and what she is doing? And more importantly, how do I not text OM right now and tell him he ends it with my W, or I end his career (I have confirmed he is also military)? I am confident I have enough documentation. I know we always talk about how it isn't about the A and it doesn't matter, but at the end of the day, especially in cases like mine, it seems like it's ALL about the A! It's like saying a heroin addiction isn't really about the heroin. And how do I calmly stand on the side when I could call the dealer and say I'm turning him in if he supplies my W any further??

I get it. Let her go. Stop caring. It just feels like leaving my wife on the side of the road with a needle in her arm. And then the subsequent struggle to not call the cops (in this case, report the A).

You can�t fix an addict. They have to hit rock bottom and fix themselves.

I know, I know. Just have to keep telling myself.

This weekend, to be frank, [censored]. Knowing she is with him makes me sick. I am GALing and trying not to think about it, but there really isn�t a worse feeling. Still desperately wishing I could wake up from this nightmare. Thanks all for your support.

I wish we could be there with you in person. (((hugs)))

This, too, shall pass.

Thanks, Sandi. I haven�t posted because there isn�t much to update. I kept telling myself I just had to make it through the torturous weekend, but turned out I didn�t feel any better when I knew the plane had touched down and she was back. I was able to get some real work done with school stuff, however, and do a better job than I have in a long while since BD. I also waffled back and forth on whether I should decorate for the holidays and I finally decided, why not!? I�m going to. I thought perhaps it would be morbid or weird, but I literally had a goofy smile on my face when I started putting up some lights and my vision came together. I knew I made the right decision. So I will continue decorating this week and make the home a joyful, peaceful place for me and the dogs.

Today officially marks one week of zero contact with W, from either side (definitely the longest ever). But it was ruined by the darn medical clinic calling her this morning before calling me about my upcoming appointment. First she just texted they were trying to get a hold of me (I was already off the phone by the time I got the text, so it�s not like I didn�t answer them for hours). Then after no response she asked if everything is okay and do I need her to do anything. Is it wrong to just not reply? I feel very disgusted with W and just have no interest in breaking NC. Don�t want to be rude but this is not an important event.

I would just reply back "no thanks, got it covered." It was either nice or nosy of her to ask. If nice then a polite response is good. If nosy then a polite response is still good because it discloses nothing.

That is exactly what I intended, but I was quite busy today and a couple hours passed before I could send it and she called me. I didn�t want to answer and let it go to voicemail. She then texted that any response was helpful to let her know I was okay. And that she needs to come to the house to get some things and see the dogs. Again I was driving and delayed my response and again she ended up calling, twice. I don�t know why exactly I had some issues with avoiding even replying to her. Anyway, after the calls which I didn�t answer because I didn�t want a convo, I texted that I am fine. And I will let her know which day she can come to the house.

She responded, No she will come to get what she needs and see the dogs. I was confused as I had not said she couldn�t come, I assume she did not like that it was to be on my terms. But I just replied I did not say she couldn�t. Then she said I was difficult to coordinate with. What?! This is the first day I hear anything about her wanting to come, it seems to only have been triggered by her not liking my non response to her �check in� due the medical call. Now suddenly she wants to come to the house and I am somehow difficult. I just said sorry you feel that way, like I said we can arrange it. She said she wanted today or tomorrow, depending on her work schedule. I said tomorrow is fine and have received nothing since. I would not be surprised if she doesn�t even show up or communicate further about the time. Since I don�t think this was really even about her coming. But I do suspect she will want to inspect everything as she has been away a while. Who knows.

I'll start with the good news...my GAL is in full swing. I had a great weekend, by Saturday night there were 3 things I wanted to do with different friends and I could sadly chose only one. I am having fun and finding ways to have lots of social interaction. I don't dwell on the sitch because I hardly have the time and that is the goal, right? It's also why it's been a few days since I updated.

Today was the day of the medical appointment my W kept getting calls about. I hadn't had contact with her for 4 days. As soon as I got there, I got a text from her saying she knows I am on base today and wants to talk to move things forward. Why does she insist on these kinds of ambushes? She then sent a long message about how she is uncomfortable with everything being unsettled and she wants to file paperwork, and if we need to sell the house that process must begin. I told her we could meet after my appt.

So I drove to the meeting spot and she got in my car. She pulled out a notebook and a pen, ready to take notes, and said okay let's talk. Then she waited. WHAT?! I did not initiate the meeting and that's what I said. She said we need to push things forward and she cannot live in her dorm room beyond this week. (I recently discovered that she has been living on base in the dorms, which is a temporary solution and means she has informed her command of domestic problems). So I thought it made sense about the meeting, she was about to be "homeless" again. But she consistently steered the conversation back to pushing the paperwork. Back when I told her to leave the houses , I told her my offer to not fight her for the house if I remain until May (my last semester), so we can file in February as the finalization would match that timeline of my moving out. This is the plan I formed with my therapist. Everyone agrees it is quite reasonable, except W of course. So I remind her this is the current agreement, and there is no stalling or avoiding or whatever she was accusing me of. She says February is not acceptable, she wants this done so we can move on with our lives.

At first she said we can put it in the divorce agreement that I stay in the house until May, so we can still file now and even if it finalizes before then, that's fine. She tried to TELL me she was coming over Wed to fill out the paperwork and we will file this week. I said it's not happening. If she has a problem with the current timeline, she can propose an alternative which I would give legitimate consideration, but the plan to file this week was laughable. But more importantly, it makes no sense. Why is the paperwork a huge deal? She is in financial crisis, self admittedly going into bankruptcy and will have to "rebuild her life", and she is rushing to lose $500 a month, with NO change in the housing situation! It isn't even a solution to the problem we were supposed to be discussing, which is that she is out of a home again on Friday and can't afford a separate place. I told her since she had mentioned legal separation last time, why not explore that if she felt the need to rush paperwork. Or of course, she is always free to serve me papers and go to court.

Then she said a judge will make her sell the house. This is where it gets crazy. She suddenly brought forward a new proposal. We sell the house immediately and she gives me all profits, provided that it is a minimum of $25k. Enough to support me through my last semester. Her hands are washed of anything beyond the divorce finalization, which we would file ASAP. I was in shock that she would propose this. I had literally offered to not fight her for the house (which she could then keep long term) and file in Feb, but she is SO desperate to rush the legal side, she would rather go through the process to sell it and then give me all the money, all to be divorced ~90 days sooner. It's absolute madness and I can't even figure out her motivation. I have tried to make it clear to her that it is already too late if she is trying to save herself from a career standpoint.

Obviously, this was a long R talk and I'm sure that I broke many DB rules. But the one thing I did not do and have never done is break down, cry, or say anything that even hints that I do not want to Iose her or want her to change her mind, etc. Mostly, I mentioned OM too often, because she STILL wanted to sit there denying to me that she is having an A. She looked me in the eye and told me she didn't take a trip last weekend. I said she is a liar and I will therefore not be taking her word on anything throughout this process, so stop with the "I promise I won't screw you over" stuff. Her words are completely and utterly meaningless. There was some more of her asking about my supposed girlfriend and telling me to please just tell her if I have brought her to the house and she has met "her" dogs. ??? I told her that her behavior is disgusting. She said I have a God complex, that I think I'm better than everyone and always right. She also let me know she has been tracking all my spending, wanted to know who I went to drinks with etc.

Somehow we got into a staring contest and just stared in each other's eyes for a couple full minutes. She started saying her weird, self pity, I need help stuff. But of course she hasn't gotten any and said she doesn't plan to, she is "handling it her own way" and "everyone will see". I said that sounds like a threat and frankly kind of scary. She assured me she has no intentions to harm me or anyone else. She wanted to give me a hug and I know you will all 2x4 me for not rejecting it, but I didn't because I clearly have more work to do. It was a long hug and during it she said "I'm a broken, sh!tty person". I just said I know. Then she said to consider her proposal and let her know. She would like to be able to come to the house and see the dogs and doesn't care if I am there (a change from our original agreement). I told her it still needs to be communicated. She cannot show up unannounced like she did last week (if you were waiting for the update on the previous post, she indeed did not show up the next day but I came home to suddenly find her car in the driveway the day after).

It is hard not to feel there is absolutely no hope for any change. She is obviously as wayward as ever, and seems to ONLY care about getting divorced as fast as possible. I am not holding onto hope necessarily, but I always think of myself in the lighthouse approach and I'm reaching the point where I wonder why I'm even bothering to maintain that. But I know it's only been a couple months, and this is a marathon.

Originally Posted by 44tries

She suddenly brought forward a new proposal. We sell the house immediately and she gives me all profits, provided that it is a minimum of $25k. Enough to support me through my last semester. Her hands are washed of anything beyond the divorce finalization, which we would file ASAP. I was in shock that she would propose this.

Wow! Sounds tempting. What's keeping you from biting at this, given some time to think?

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But I know it's only been a couple months, and this is a marathon.

A couple of months? What about last year? She never recovered, or to my knowledge tried to recover, from her waywardness. You stopped posting, took a trip, had some fun, and you thought things were better........but they weren't, b/c her behavior toward you remained the same. Just b/c you endure a bad situation doesn't mean it is getting better. At heart, you are a positive person. You want to see the good in everyone, and you wanted to believe your MR was slowing improving. It can't improve as long as she refuses to change.

As for her desperation to get the process going, sell the house, etc., it sounds to me as if she needs to be legally single as soon as possible. The excuse she gave you about moving on with your lives is not quite the truth, b/c she could move on without a D. This woman is very, very manipulative.........and I don't think you are the only man she manipulates. I would not put anything past her. Many WW's are in a big rush to get the D pushed through, and I've seen a few cases where they took a big financial loss, and gave up their kids, in order to be with their OM. If OM is married, I can think of at least one way of breaking up his marriage, and then OM marrying your WW after she gets D from you.

None of it makes sense to you, b/c you are using your logical male brain to see her proposal. You aren't thinking like a desperate, emotional, crazy WW who wants to be with OM.

And regarding her comments about the dogs, may I just say as a dog lover myself.........they are pets, not children. Don't start having "custody" battles and "visitations" over a couple of dogs. She doesn't want you having another woman meet your dogs? That is insane!

Sandi, you are correct that she never recovered from her waywardness. But I do believe she tried in some way. By initiating physical affection with me when I know she did not necessarily have the feelings of wanting to...doing things like writing me the nice letter for my birthday or buying me thoughtful gifts. I guess I want to say that I don't have a doubt that she tried to do SOMETHING. I didn't feel like I was enduring a bad situation or that her behavior toward me remained the same. She did not show me blatant displays of disrespect. If anything, I just wished to feel closer and for her to recover "faster". Maybe she didn't put in the necessary work, have enough remorse, to really get rid of the wayward heart. I understand this. I am not trying to argue that everything was fixed by any means or that she was a completely different person. Just that I saw some effort. But it became clear as soon as the opportunity arose that the problem was still very much there. I guess what I'm trying to say is that there was a time when I was hopeful and things really were improved and going in the right direction. I felt effort on her part and I felt that maybe we could get to true piecing and find that long term satisfaction. I believe she wanted that too, and tried, but did not know the right ways to get it. And then she was too weak to not just give up when OM2 came along and she slid back down the mountain to full on waywardness. I know she does feel a ton of guilt and shame. But she is starved for some supposed happiness that she has never been able to obtain with me. But I would literally go to the ends of the earth for her. So I just don't get it and find it very tragic.

Yes, it is insane about a woman meeting the dogs. My W says all kinds of insane things! That she knows damn well are insane and she just says them anyway. Sometimes she even can't get through the convo without laughing at herself because she is being so ridiculous. What is this game??

I burned myself out on GAL. I am an introvert and can get drained from social interactions, especially with new people I am not yet comfortable with. So I had to take a little break. But it was good timing because I have been slammed with schoolwork before the holiday break and am thankfully able to breathe now after completing a monster amount of work. Now, I feel recharged and will hang out with a few friends this week. I decided not to go home to family (out of state) for Thanksgiving after much debate. I am mentally and emotionally exhausted, and the cost and travel was just too much for a short time. I will go for Christmas. W is picking "her" two dogs up and taking them to her parents tomorrow, until Sunday. So it will be me and my dog for the holiday. I might cook with a friend.

To be honest, I have had a horrible week. I felt really great about my GAL and detachment and then in the past week, I have felt worse and worse each day. I have dreams about W every night. They are all over the place, causing emotional whiplash and feeling horrible when I wake up. The initial period of enjoying my freedom and coming and going as I please etc has worn off and now I just miss her terribly. The feeling is almost unbearable.

W came by the house once this week to get some more things. She continually changed until she could come at a time that I was there. I do not know why, but it was clear that she wanted me to be home when she came. She wanted a hug like last time when she left. She has been friendly and jumps at the chance to contact me about something. I never ever contact her. I don't think I've initiated any contact with her since BD, actually. But I also know she calls OM for about an hour most days (could be more, phone records are limited these days). Basically, I think she has the same feelings for me that she always has, but she is wayward and the A/OM is worth more to her. She can't resist it. But it [censored] when I KNOW she still cares about me too. But I am NOT Plan B. I deserve way more than that.

Apparently there is some drama surrounding Thanksgiving for W and her family. SIL texted me today that she (SIL,not W) will not be attending with them. She has reached out to W over the past weeks and received no response. When confronting her about Thanksgiving, W told her she will not speak to her if she has any communication with me at all. SIL thinks this is insane and is not willing to cut me out of her life or our nephews lives cold turkey. She said we became family and now W chooses to do all of this and we lose you just like that, no way. I feel really bad about it like it�s my fault, but W has said nothing to me about it which I find very strange. I don�t really understand it at all. I guess it is their issue to work out. SIL even said W told her she isn�t mad at her, just won�t communicate while she is in communication with me. I didn�t realize we were at war like that?? Meanwhile when W sees me she tries to hug me... crazy stuff.

W came to pick up the dogs and gave me the guilt trip speech that she really thought I might have gotten all their stuff ready for her but she guesses she was wrong. Really?! I have had nothing to say to her requests but NO, since she wants to make 10 asks every time she sees me. This is the behavior that had stopped during the past year. Today she even said she "gets why i have to say no".

She also came up behind me and spontaneously tickled me and pretended it was the dog. Can't make this up. I ignored it. It's very clear with the hugging and now apparently tickling that she wants to touch me. Seems strange given that she has no attraction... She also asked if she should let me know she makes it safely or do i not care? She just seems desperate to crack me and get me to admit I still care about her. Not going to happen.

Spent a great Friendsgiving with a newish friend...but unfortunately there was an incident with our dogs, and my dog was bit on the eye. This morning, it was clear he needs to go to a vet. I debated about informing W, due to the cost and knowing her freak out when she returns on Sunday to find one of his eyes looks missing. First I decided not to tell her. But someone told me I should, so I just sent her a brief text that I would need to take him in today, I was sorry, and would let her know the outcome and cost. Of course she follows up with who what how when where?! (Literally). Then calls me immediately demanding to know all the details, where I was and who it was with. I guarantee she assumes I am staying over at some girlfriend�s house bringing the dog so I can sleep there and her dog attacked and now I�m trying to stick W with the bill. Not the case at all, but what can I do. Our dog has been very stressed since she took the other two suddenly for the holiday, and I didn�t want to leave him alone while I went to the thanksgiving. All around a crappy situation I should have just avoided by spending the holiday alone with the dog

Somehow my emotional state has taken a drastic turn for the worse. The last four days I have had anxiety so bad I can hardly function. I wake up every morning feeling absolutely sick with worry and it doesn�t go away unless I GAL with others and distract myself. But as soon as I�m alone again, it�s back. I�m worried something is happening that I don�t know about. Like somehow my gut feeling knows. I am going to talk to IC on Tuesday at my appointment but I think I need medication, which also terrifies me. I don�t like the idea of taking drugs for mental health stuff but if this doesn�t stop, I can�t live like this. I can�t eat and feel desperate to make this awful feeling go away.

I don�t understand why this is suddenly happening now, after it�s been well over 2 months since BD and I have been largely �fine� as far as not being crippled by this kind of thing. The only thing I can think of that coincides with this starting is an extremely graphic, disturbing dream I had about W and OM. What I saw in this dream I can�t get out of my head. Is it possible for my own dreams to have traumatized me?! It feels insane.

If anyone has any tips for extreme anxiety, please share. Thank you.

44 - I haven�t read your thread but I am familiar with anxiety. I lost 15 pounds during the BD days and I was skinny to begin with. Lack of appetite is completely familiar. Also the disturbing dreams are familiar.

It sounds like you are at an 8/10 or higher. Everyone is different but some things that have worked for me:

- you have survived 100% of your bad days.
- nobody has died from anxiety.
- notice what the anxiety spikes feel like. Know that they will increase in intensity and eventually subside. Observe your body. Let it be rather than fight it. Pushing it away tends to feed the cycle.
- breathe. When you catch yourself cycling, just breathe.
- focus on the present. Notice your senses: smell touch sight sound
- catch yourself thinking about the past or future and let it go. Focus on the next thing and nothing else. Do the next thing.
- medication is a personal choice.
- exercise has been a life saver - 3 nights a week I go to bed absolutely exhausted. My appetite returned and I feel and look great. It didn�t happen overnight but exercise has a clear connection (for me) to improved mental health.

Also
- meditation does not work well unless anxiety is 6ish or lower. But it works fantastic at those levels for me.

U, thank you so much for those tips. I have also lost 15 pounds that I couldn�t afford to lose. I think the tip about nobody dying from anxiety is very helpful, because in the worst of it I truly feel like it will kill me. It�s like being suffocated. Also, the exercise could be key. I have not been going to the gym because the money situation is bad and I can�t afford a membership. I need to make myself do some exercise at home (unfortunately too cold to do it outside). Really interesting about meditation only working for lower levels. Thanks again, I�m going to keep coming back to these tips.

Hey 44,

Sorry to hear you are struggling. Anxiety has been a major part of my life since I was young, I understand your desperation to get away from it.

Don�t be afraid to explore taking meds for your anxiety/depression. I had to do that during one of my BD�s and it helped me in the short term. I still take a low dose SSRI and I feel it helps keep me a little more balanced and not as susceptible to getting crippled by my anxiety.

The other thing that has really helped with anxiety is the gym. And I don�t mean 30 minutes of lightly walking on a treadmill. You have to crush it in the gym. Put on some angry music in your headphones and go lift until you are exhausted.

Hang in there man. I think it�s safe to assume you were a little traumatized by your graphic dream. Hang in there!

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W came to pick up the dogs and gave me the guilt trip speech that she really thought I might have gotten all their stuff ready for her but she guesses she was wrong. Really?!

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Spent a great Friendsgiving with a newish friend...but unfortunately there was an incident with our dogs, and my dog was bit on the eye. This morning, it was clear he needs to go to a vet. I debated about informing W, due to the cost and knowing her freak out when she returns on Sunday to find one of his eyes looks missing. First I decided not to tell her. But someone told me I should, so I just sent her a brief text that I would need to take him in today, I was sorry, and would let her know the outcome and cost. Of course she follows up with who what how when where?! (Literally). Then calls me immediately demanding to know all the details, where I was and who it was with.

Incredible, isn't it? There have been many stories of WW's in affairs and divorcing their H, and still "demands" to know all the details. She doesn't seem to miss an opportunity to throw guilt trips your way, and talk down to you as if you were six years old. It hasn't hit her that she no longer gets to be "in the know" about your personal life, b/c she forfeited that right when she decided to end her reign as Mrs. 44.

Guilt trips only succeed if you feel guilty. The best revenge (not that you are looking for revenge) is to be completely nonchalant, and let her see how ineffective her guilt trips work.

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((((44tries)))) I think I'm the world's worst, when it comes to comforting someone. Just isn't my "hidden talent".......but that's not to say I don't care if someone is suffering. I usually wait for other LBS's to respond to the posts like you've written regarding your emotions, b/c they can relate, better than anyone, to the pain you are experiencing. One time I tried to express empathy with a particular LBH, and I told him the worse pain I had experienced was when my mother and my daughter died within months of each other...... and I tried to express some of my emotional struggles and talk about grief. Well......he told me that losing his WW in divorce was worse than if he lost her in death. He said something like, "At least your loss was due to death.....instead of divorce". You get closure with death, but my WW is still alive and I will never have closure as long as she lives". (For the record, some people don't find closure when they lose a loved in death, but that was his opinion. I was not talking about closure. I was talking about emotional pain & loss).

I wanted to help him so badly, and nobody had responded to his emotional outpouring. Since I was a former WW, I couldn't tell him I knew just how he felt. However, I had experienced pain from loss. So, I tried to reach out and connect with him by sharing my most painful experience in my life. I can't remember his name, but I've often thought about his response. Perhaps he felt as if I was comparing my pain to his, or suggesting that my loss was greater than his. Rather than him seeing that I could relate to pain that resulted from a great loss, maybe he felt that I was trying to invalidate his pain.

Pain if very personal. Even if a group of people share similar experiences, does is lessen your own suffering? IDK, but we human beings find some measure of comfort with those who have same experiences. I don't know that people can compare pain......however, it seems to help if they hear from someone who has traveled the same road. Everyone's pain is unique, especially if you are the one who is suffering. Sorry, I am rambling.

I'll try to close this out by urging you to do everything possible to tackle your fear and depression. I had asked you about finding a church since moving back to the states, but I don't remember you answering. I encourage you to find one that gives you the spiritual uplifting and assurance for facing the future. As for taking anti-depressants, I'll tell you what my doctor said........"Even Christians need help with depression sometimes". We aren't talking about feeling the blues here. You are describing serious depression that may require medical assistance. Doesn't mean you'll be on AD's for the rest of your life. If you had a physical condition, would you have a problem taking medication to treat it? Please discuss your concerns about AD meds with your doctor.

I remember reading a list of things in life that caused the greatest stress. Moving to a foreign country, buying a house, getting a divorce, (not to mention some other things you've gone through the past couple of years).......rank closely with the loss of loved ones. I'm talking about the things that bring the greatest stress. Is there any wonder you are depressed. The good news is that you have all these guys on the board to keep you company and they know what works and what doesn't.

Please don't stop posting. Even if you have no updates, let us hear from you.

44 - those are just things that worked for me. When my anxiety is really running, meditation flips from �helpful� to �torturous.�

Anxiety is a beast. I also go to IC, listen to podcasts, and in general try to make sure I am taking better care of myself. I haven�t tried medication but sometimes wonder if I should.

I've been really worried about you, 44. I hope you will come back to tell us how you are doing. ((hugs))