Hi.this is my 1st post so I will try and tell the story of my ditch.and desperately request advice.l have been with my wife for 14years and we have 2 amazing children together.the overview us that I believe we have been in a codependent relationship thus whole time.my wife is a childhood abuse survivor and has a narcissistic mother and a string of abusive relationships and addiction problems.but she is amazingly social.brave and always driving change seeking a love of life but at the same time drawn to saving people.i am just realizing that I have been emotionally dependent my entire life and throughout our relationship.i have had chronic self esteem issues and depression and I gave all responsibility for my happiness and wellbeing to external sources.i was a chronic alcoholic for the 1st 9 years of our relationship until my wife sought help and identified me as an emotional abuser.this was devastating for me to acknowledge but I accept it as true and caused her great suffering and neglect.she demanded I moved out.which I did.finding somewher close by so I could see the kids and vowed to start working on myself.which I did.overtime approx 5 months we became closer and bonded over our realizations and her confrontation with her family.we eventually reconcilled and I was so sure things would never be the same.i now realize that much of the work I did was not for me but driven by my attachment to her and a desire to reconcile.we relocated and over the last two years the same neglect and lack of intimacy has crept back into love her deeply but always put my fears and insecurity ahead of her needs.i became increasingly depressed and withdrawn and she really did try to help but I saw it as her nagging and trying to change and control me.5 weeks ago she declared that she wanted a seperation with a view to a divorce and that she refused to discuss us.
I have lurching through shock,anger,denial while continuing to live apart in the same house.i became increasingly suspicious as this all coincided with her getting fit again.going out with friends 3 or 4 nights a week and starting drink and drugs again.she stated several times that there was no one else but had become very close with 2 younger women in their early thirties both who had at the same time left their partners.2 weeks ago while my wife was away with the kids I became overwhelmed with feelings of no self worth and on the harbour arm had almost a compulsion to end my life.this shocked the he'll out of me and I finally saw the depression and low self esteem.i immediately set to work on taking responsibility for myself, losing the beard.eating and showering daily and buying a bike to exercise with.i chose not to tell my wife but she noticed the changes.we got on well over the last week and even bonded over the seperation plans and telling the kids.we shared a day out on the Sunday a family meal and she toasted the family.even though we were still separating I began to feel hopeful regardless.
Then came Monday.we have a small business together and while working together she was talking about a friend's husbands depression I felt compelled to share with her what had happened.she listened and was very upset but supportive.she went out to see her friend and came back fuming.she declared that I was nothing but an emotional abuser that she didn't believe me and that it was textbook to threaten suicide.she let out every bad thing I had ever said or done and I accepted and validated everyone.i tried in earnest to explain that sharing the incident was not a threat but trying to communicate that it had made me realise how my wellbeing was my responsibility after burdening her for so long.i admit in hindsight I should not have shared it as it was another burden.she has completely closed to me saying that she no longer feels safe around someone so manipulative and demanded I leave the family home.
I was devastated and overcome with shame and I left.i have been staying with friends for a few nights and there have been a few very terse messages from her about how I have left her in such an awkward position.i have replied that I understood fully how she felt and would do anything to help i have continued to validate everything.she has stated today she wants me out of the business and despite then being jobless to arrange somewhere else to live immediately.our original plan was to sell the family home after one last Xmas and split the proceeds to provide 2 smaller homes to co parent the kids.
I am afraid she now intends to stay in the home.while I feel deep deep shame for being so neglectful and never putting her first she seems consumed with hate for me.
I would do anything to make reparations, I truly love her while accepting my love is unhealthy and has been damaging.
Humbly asking for any advice
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Hi there, sorry you are here. It sounds like a very tough situation.
This board is a fantastic resource and is full of great people who give lots of advice.
Looks like you are identifying the issues that need addressing; that's a really big first step.
All I'd say is make sure you post a lot - keep everyone updated on what's going on. It really helps. Get the DR book if you haven't already.
Have you sought any therapy, for yourself?
Read all the links above - many of them are invaluable.
Most importantly - GAL and Detach for now.
Thank You cadet.
Right now I feel all I can do is get somewhere to live and try and rebuild myself.at the same time I feel compelled to try and explain that sharing my depression and near miss was not intended to manipulate her.
She has so many defenses and anger present.along with the narrative from her friends any attempt to explain right now will probably backfire.i just feel aggrieved that she believes I am such a manipulative monster.
Thanks DaB35
I'll get the book as soon as I have an address.
And will read the links.i know I must detach from someone I have been so emotionally dependent on.
Does it go against the grain to write a letter of apology/acknowledgement validating what i have done?
When you read DR this will fall into place. Could you get it delivered to work instead? Might arrive quicker.
I've learned this - write the letter to get the thoughts out. Then do NOT send it.
I wrote a letter. It was 2 pages of A4. I was going to give it to my W. You can check my part 1/2 thread to read it here. I did not send it. I'm glad I didn't.
It will push her further away. You will be pursuing her. She doesn't want that.
Detach. Or, to put another way, 'Drop the rope'. Let her go. Focus on you. It is the complete opposite of what you want to do. You want to write that letter and send 50 roses to her and turn up outside the house playing the guitar or something. Then she runs to you and everything's fine. It doesn't work like that.
Instead, detach. You cannot control her. You can control yourself. Since I detached - I haven't seen my W for 2 weeks (we've been separated since May), and I haven't had any contact from her at all for a week - I've never felt happier about ME. Lots of people tell me I look so much better and healthier. Never realised how much I put myself down. No I rarely have negative thoughts about myself. My posture is better, I eat healthy, I exercise, I walk a little slower, I relax a bit more. It has been a boost.
Do it. You'll notice a change in yourself quickly. Took me about a week. Doesn't mean be rude or standoffish with your W. Just detach. Act as if you are fine.
And stay off Facebook! If you need to use it - hide her, hide your relationship status, whatever. Make it a big effort ot check up on her so you don't do it.
To reiterate - do NOT send a letter to her.
OK well first of all man up and quit letting her push you around. Move back into the house, it is just as much yours as hers. DO NOT allow her to remove you from the business. Again it's just as much yours as hers. You need to protect yourself first and foremost. You have just as much right to the home, the business and access to the kids as she does and don't let her convince you otherwise. If she starts throwing threats around then hire a lawyer. Too many LBS's get BD'd and then move out and give their wife everything they ask for. Guess how much advantage it gives them? NONE. She already has very little respect you and if you let her treat you like this then she will have even less. Take control of your life. She will hate it, but inside a bloom of respect will have started and will build over time. Without respect you will NEVER have a relationship with her again, it's your only path to future recon.
You can purchase the books from Amazon via this site. At the top of the page is a box that says "Divorcebusting Store". Click on Books, DVDs, etc., select the book you want and click on the little box that says Amazon.
I guess my first question is would a letter acknowledging what i have done and showing remorse be an act of validation or pursuit.i fully accept my emotional instincts are probably gravely wrong and selfish at this time.
I would struggle to demand I move back into the house at this time without causing trauma to the kids.
I intend to contact her tomorrow to ask her how she envisages me exiting the business as in order to obtain a rental property I will need proof of employment.i think this would also be the time to agree wether the original agreement on sale of house and splitting of proceeds stands.if only to be able to co parent the kids.
Move back into the house. Don't sign anything and don't make decisions about the business until you're thinking clearly.
You can't "nice" her back. If that worked this board wouldn't exist.
I know you want to make amends, prove you've changed, whatever but in the meantime this is your life. Your business. Your kids.
Move back in. My WAH left and it was the biggest mistake he made. Worked out great for me...not so much for him.
Wow, please listen to kas99.
So.have agreed that I will be returning to town to be able to see the kids.and stated that I would need to stay in the business to obtain evidence of employment if I was to secure temp accommodation.
She has agreed that we will continue to work seperately and that I can split time between work studio and home.but all contact from her is exceptionally cold.she has continued to state that she wants as little to do with me as possible and stated how much safer and comfortable she has been in the house without me there.i know it had been awkward when we slept in seperate rooms etc.and with her continuing to go out till 4am etc but I can't believe she considers me a threat unless she is buying into this narrative she is spinning and consolidating with her friends.
There seems to be so much hate and coldness at the moment.
I've told myself when I arrive today I will focus on the kids and not raise anything regarding the relationship and at the same time I'm overwhelmed with anxiety feeling almost compelled to try and explain the past depression and acknowledging the impact on the relationship.i know this is the wrong thing to do as I'm positive that as she would probably listen she would also take it as further manipulation.
Would there ever be a time to try and explain myself or do i just leave that for the unknown future.
It's incredibly painful that she has developed this picture of me.
I guess my first question is would a letter acknowledging what i have done and showing remorse be an act of validation or pursuit.
Write the letter for yourself to get things off your chest. Then burn it or throw it out or delete it if electronic. DON'T send it. Yes it is a form of pursuit. No it does no good whatsoever. In fact a lot of WAS's will use it as ammo. "See, he admits everything is his fault, I have it right here in writing." Don't buy into her narrative, this isn't all your fault. Do some soul-searching and use this as a growth opportunity. But also be mindful that she is not blameless. She's the one abandoning the M and kicking you out, that is a pretty cold, heartless act.
I would struggle to demand I move back into the house at this time without causing trauma to the kids.
It's your choice in the end but we have plenty of LBH's here that we counseled to go back home and they didn't, and then later regretted it. You're doing it to try and appease her, but it never works. When the LBS tries to appease the WAS it just makes them look weak and powerless at a time that they need to be asserting themselves. You never should have left to begin with, once you leave it's tough to go back.
When my XW decided she wanted out I told her it wasn't what I wanted but I wasn't going to stand in her way and that I would respect her decision. Later she asked why she was the one that had to leave. I told her "I stand behind the marriage, the kids and our home, I am not leaving no matter what. If you decide to leave then I will not stop you. I would prefer that you stay and work on the marriage, but if leaving is what you want then so be it. But I am not leaving." That's probably not an exact quote as it's been many years ago, but that's the gist of it. There's a book by James Dobson called "Love Must be Tough" that dovetails well with Michele's books. He refers to this as "opening the cage door". WAS's feel trapped in their life and want out. So the LBS should "open the cage door". That doesn't mean kicking her out or moving out yourself, it just means letting her know that you're not tying her down and she can leave whenever she wants if she wants. But it needs to be her choice to make, and it shouldn't be an easy one. She should feel the discomfort of having to find a new place to live and take care of the kids by herself part of the time.
Ok.so it's been about a week since I posted.
I returned to town and agreed for me to pick kids up from school.i returned with them to the house and she said she would be going out while I spent time with the kids.kids put to bed and I didn't hear from her so went to bed in spare room.helped pack the kids off and returned to shower.she had been amicable but then started shouting about how she didn't feel safe with me in the house.she is a sexual abuse survivor and stated she had been having extreme traumatic night terrors.and demanded I leave the house again.next breath saying she needed help with the business.i could pick the kids up from school and leave once I'd put them to bed.this went on for two days.each evening she starts sharing with me about upcoming holiday,emotional stuff about family abuse,issues with my parents etc.each time the next day (I suspect after talking to her friends) all the barriers are back up.shes in trauma and wants me out of the business again.demanding to know when I will have a place a job etc.we got on well last night talking about kids and she started a talk about how perhaps my mother was a narcissist.( her mother is)
This morning after arriving to drop kids off I am literally the devil.has accused me of manipulating her into chats because she felt sorry for me.said she's calling me out as being an abusive passive aggressive narcissist and that she wants me completely out of her life again wanting to know nothing about me and at the same time demanding to see my appointments with mental health services as yet again she believes I threatened suicide as a way of controlling her and that our entire relationship has been me psychologically abusing her.
I'm venting, I know I failed and neglected her,have been dependent and emotionally damaging to her at the same time between her own issues with childhood abuse and these friends who she quoted as saying.he's only helping out to manipulate you back despite her starting these chats and me just being responsive and validating.
Just ranting to get it off my chest.
I know I need to just detach somehow.any contact results in same outcome.
Just don't know how to do it when truly love somebody.
All advice welcome.
Boy this is a tough one. I've seen situations like yours before and the best thing to do is go as dark as possible because the less you are around her the less venom she can spray at you. You've got to remove yourself from the equation before she'll start to realize that you are not the reason for all of her problems great and small (which is exactly what she thinks right now). The problem is you have a business together (as well as kids) so that means you've got to be around her. What is the nature of the business, did both of you start it together or is it really "her" business and she brought you into it? I'm only asking that because she keeps insisting you get out of it and I'm wondering if there is a basis for that. Also what is the nature of the business, do the two of you have to work very closely together on a daily basis or are you both off doing your own thing?
Yeah I've realised I need to detach somehow.had to go watch the kids last minute tonight as she had forgotten about a parents meeting at the school.
It's a design business and one work at home and one at studio.She started the ltd company but in a totally different field.when we last seperated she pushed for me to leave my career and join her as co director to spend more time together and be around kids more as I was pushing long hours and drinking.jumped at the chance because I had rose tinted reconciliation glasses on.
We started a new business direction and built it together 50/50.at times she was frustrated at need for me to be more active in the business (finding my feet after 20 years in a different field) and as it grew and I took a more active role she is now complaining that I've tried to take control of her business.
We both have different strengths and I never saw it as anything other than a partnership.
Now this evening I've received 6 messages in a row from her trying to arrange how I will help out with the kids over the weekend.
Detaching and going dark is going to be real tricky.
Mini revelation
Wife has mentioned several times over the last few weeks that she has said and done things to me that she would never do to anyone else.
I didn't press her and honestly wasn't sure what she had said in the past.she offered no specifics despite being very specific about everything I had ever said and done.
I think I had totally blocked a lot of what she has said.but last night I started remembering the multiple times she had openly compared me in bed to past lovers as part of "honest chats"
I never pulled her up on that stuff.i ate it slilenty and while I had thought I had just let it all go as just words.
It's been that fear of confrontation that fed so much of my passive aggressive behaviour.damaged our relationship and made her lose respect for me.
I feel the need to talk to her about boundaries both past and future so that we can be mire honest and put an end to the resentment and damage probably via email.
If I raise this am I just causing more damage or providing more ammo for her ,Now that she has fully closed to me and put the walls up saying she refuses to have me in the house or talking about us as she believes I am manipulating her?
Yeah I've realised I need to detach somehow.had to go watch the kids last minute tonight as she had forgotten about a parents meeting at the school.
Now this evening I've received 6 messages in a row from her trying to arrange how I will help out with the kids over the weekend.
I think you said you left the house? And you are still staying away? Are you still staying with friends or have you found a place? You're stuck in the worst kind of limbo right now and you need to do something. You either need to move back home or find a place. Then you need to get a custody agreement/ parenting plan in place. When you do that then you also should establish some boundaries, such as her giving you X days notice if she needs you to watch the kids on one of her days. This will bring an end to a lot of this nonsense where she is yanking you around and will also help you with detachment and GAL.
It's a design business and one work at home and one at studio.
Based on your description it doesn't sound like she has any right to kick you out on her whim. Obviously something will have to be worked out if you end up divorcing, but that could be way down the road.
but last night I started remembering the multiple times she had openly compared me in bed to past lovers as part of "honest chats"
Wow this is pretty messed up. Just in general your descriptions of her strike me as her being very controlling and manipulative.
I feel the need to talk to her about boundaries both past and future so that we can be mire honest and put an end to the resentment and damage probably via email.
Before you send her anything post what you intend to send her here so we can comment on it. Boundaries trip a lot of newer people up. You can't have boundaries without repercussions. Whatever boundaries you place WILL get challenged, and if there's no repercussion then it just ends up making you look weak and powerless. Here are two examples:
1. You tell her your boundary is that you will no longer tolerate her seeing OM. She continues to see OM, laughing at you while doing it.
You didn't set a repercussion for her breaching the boundary and so had no response when she did breach it. Don't set a boundary you can't enforce.
2. You tell her your boundary is you need 24 hours notice before watching the kids for her, or you will not help her out. She calls you desperately asking you to watch them in an hour because she forgot about some random meeting. You tell her "I can't, I have plans. Remember we agreed that you would give me at least 24 hours notice, please respect that."
You set a repercussion and you followed through on it. She might rant and rave and pitch a fit that you didn't drop everything for her, but inside her a bloom of respect has started and she's starting to realize she can't control you anymore.
Boundaries are about protecting yourself, not about making her do something you want her to.
Thanks.
It's starting to make sense.
I'll post what i was going to email here for any advice.
Thanks.
It's starting to make sense.
I'll post what i was going to email here for any advice.
Has your W ever been to an IC? Just reading through the description of her actions and words, she may be dealing with Borderline Personality Disorder or maybe bi-polar. I have listed the traits of a borderline below according to the DSM-5 of which for an offical diagnosis is 5 of the below symptoms but some people can certainly show borderline traits associated with another personality disorder.
-Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment
-A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by extremes between idealization and devaluation (also known as "splitting") <you're either all good in their eyes (idealization) or all bad (devaluation)
-Identity disturbance: Markedly or persistently unstable self-image or sense of self
-Impulsive behavior in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating)
-Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-harming behavior
-Emotional instability in reaction to day-to-day events (e.g., intense episodic sadness, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days)
-Chronic feelings of emptiness
-Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights)
-Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms
My W is a diagnosed borderline and cycles very rapidly from idealization to devaluation. There is no gray area. You're seen in either white (good/idealization) or black (bad/devaluation)
Ah.just been blocked on facebook and Instagram.suspicions abounding or she's just proceeding with cutting me out of her life.
So bit of an update.still living in the studio while waiting for rental property to be finalised.
Huge blow out with wife over a week ago when I mentioned I had been thinking about what she had said about me having had no boundaries and been passive aggressive.she beat me to the punch and emailed me a long list of her boundaries including never talking about us or the relationship.only emails regarding kids.for me to seek employment and leave the business and only to drop kids off at door.
I waited until she had cooled down and responded as calmly and reasonably as possible.i stated I understood her concerns and where possible validated her statements.i made it clear I wasn't willing to leave the business we both built prior to Xmas and didn't want to rush any major decisions that had such a huge impact on everyone.
Her responses was somewhat terse to begin with but agreed we needed to take time to think everything over.the next morning I get a call from her asking me to come over right away as our 15yr old family dog was seriously ill.i spent the day with the dog providing comfort as whatever was wrong with him passed.and she invited me to stay the night on the sofa to keep an eye on the dog.things appear to have been much better throughout the week.
Have to run and pick up the kids but will update on the week this evening.
So the update on the week is that things calmed down.we have been getting on ok talking about kids and their upcoming holiday it's also both my wife and my son's birthdays next week.
She has called me over to the house a few times.she re added me to her what's app and conversations about work and kids have been friendly.i stayed over again one night as wife and son wanted to watch a horror film and to be honest I think they both wanted me there as they both get scared.jokes have been shared via text and WhatsApp.she invited me along this Sunday to a family outing with the kids.
Then today I kinda put my foot in it.i was round the house to pick up some stuff,we were talking in general about depression and abuse then the kids.at some point I said I really liked her new t-shirt that she looked nice.she immediately said she doesn't want me saying things like that.i apologised but she brought it up again a few hours later saying it was a boundary violation.that she doesn't trust me and that she is slightly offended by the changes I have made in sorting myself out.she stated that she is no longer my wife.that it didn't matter if the changes lasted 2 years or 5 years down the track she would never get back together. I apologised but I guess I was visibly shook.
She came back a few minutes later to say she felt bad and that she didn't want to hurt me or for me to beat myself up.
I told her not to feel bad and that I regretted saying she looked nice along with a lot of other things.
She said it wasn't such a big deal and we should forget it.
Truth is I have been pining for her this week and being around the home and kids and joking etc I lost my sense and really shouldn't have complimented her.
Not sure what the right action is next.i desperately want to help with the kids and enjoy the family trip.at the same time while I'm trying to keep it positive and light around her ,man it's a struggle.
Please put a space between your paragraphs. This makes it easier for all to read better. Thanks!
Hi JDevast,
@Job - Ooh! Thanks for the spacing. Now I am willing to read.
I suggest reading the Boundaries thread on here that Cadet links to. Sending you a long list of "boundaries" sounds more like an attempt to control you than to set boundaries on her behavior. You shouldn't be agreeing to her terms unless they're what you want, or apologizing for not following them unless you agreed to.
Imperfect Sample:
You: "I really like the new t-shirt that looks nice on you."
Her: "I don't want you saying things like that."
You: "Noted."
Her: "Complimenting me was a BOUNDARY VIOLATION. I don't trust you."
You: "I can see you're upset I complimented your t-shirt. I'm sorry you're upset. I don't plan to again."
Her: "Don't compliment me at all!"
You: "Since I don't like seeing you upset, I'll consider that next time."
Her: "You are violating my boundaries!"
You: "When I don't do what you ask me to, I'm violating your boundaries?"
Her: "How can I trust you?"
You: "I'm not promising anything. I control me. You control you."
The hardest two things I find about boundaries and validating is remembering that
(1) less is more, and
(2) don't get riled up by what they say - no matter how wrong you believe it is - and remain calm.
The examples given above by CW are great. You don't say much, and when you do you say it calmly, slowly and pleasantly so the spouse has absolutely no way of accusing you of being argumentative at all.
I did this all wrong myself; when everything kicked off my W would call me and we'd go round and round for hours. I'd get frustrated at her assuming things but would stutter my arguments in a panicked way. I wish I found this site back in May as I'd have learnt some excellent DBing skills to try out over the phone/by text back then. Nevermind!
If there are no terms, just do as per the examles above. It definitely sounds like controlling behaviour, I agree.
The boundaries thread is very useful. Start with that then the validating thread after.
So the update on the week is that things calmed down.we have been getting on ok talking about kids and their upcoming holiday it's also both my wife and my son's birthdays next week.
She has called me over to the house a few times.she re added me to her what's app and conversations about work and kids have been friendly.i stayed over again one night as wife and son wanted to watch a horror film and to be honest I think they both wanted me there as they both get scared.jokes have been shared via text and WhatsApp.she invited me along this Sunday to a family outing with the kids.
Then today I kinda put my foot in it.i was round the house to pick up some stuff,we were talking in general about depression and abuse then the kids.at some point I said I really liked her new t-shirt that she looked nice.she immediately said she doesn't want me saying things like that.i apologised but she brought it up again a few hours later saying it was a boundary violation.
WHAT??? How dare you say she looks nice! What is wrong with you? Seriously though, here's the dynamic that is probably at work here: you've been DB'ing and she felt the pressure lift. She started opening up and letting you back in a little, then she freaked out about it thinking she was sending the wrong signals and decided to lash out over something VERY VERY MINOR. This does happen a lot, it really has nothing to do with you or what you said, it's just her running back into the castle and pulling up the drawbridge. Do you know the castle analogy? If not let me know and I'll paste it here.
she stated that she is no longer my wife.that it didn't matter if the changes lasted 2 years or 5 years down the track she would never get back together. I apologised but I guess I was visibly shook.
DON'T apologize. LISTEN and VALIDATE. "Yes I can tell you've been struggling, this must be very difficult for you." Why not apologize? Because you didn't do anything wrong, there is nothing to apologize for. Don't feed into her dialog that everything is your fault. The beauty of validating is you're acknowledging her feelings without AGREEING with them.
She came back a few minutes later to say she felt bad and that she didn't want to hurt me or for me to beat myself up.
I told her not to feel bad and that I regretted saying she looked nice along with a lot of other things.
Don't tell her how to feel or not feel. She feels the way she feels. VALIDATE her feelings. And seriously, you regret paying her a compliment? Now don't get me wrong, you shouldn't offer physical compliments to a WAS because it does come off as pursuit. But it is really not the big deal she's making of it. She's blowing it all out of proportion.
Thanks guys.
The support and advice really helps.
AnotherStander I would really be interested in seeing the castle analogy.
Thanks again
So it's been a really tough week/few days, completely lost track of time.
Sunday I joined her and the kids for a family day out. This was mostly a good day, a few minor awkward moments but as a family we had fun.
We returned to the house.
She invited me to stay for something to eat. I put the kids to bed and she mentioned how the day had seemed too close to normal and to the past and how she would be happier once I have my own place. I validated that the must have been difficult for her.and I left on kinda good terms.
So I'm drifting in and out of sleep on the studio floor. Unable to stop thinking about her and she phones at 1am in tears that our family dog is really ill. I rush over and he's having severe seizures.
She is distraught.after consulting vet I tell her to go to bed and get some sleep and stay with him all night through further seizures and post seizure recovery.
It's her birthday the following morning and I had taken the kids out to buy their gifts for her.after the kids are taken to school we take the dog into the vets and it's clear it's a brain tumour.
At 16years old I have to make the decision to end his suffering.
We were all there at the end and there was a lot of tears and even shared hugs with my wife.
It's been a really rough few days.between the death of the dog.my wife's birthday, the dogs funeral today which is also our son's 12th birthday all against the backdrop of them flying off this evening on a family holiday minus me.
We have bonded at times, cried and laughed.but at several times it became clear the walls were in place.
Yesterday she was crying and I approached her and she set a clear boundary that she didn't want any comfort.
Later in the day she again reiterated how she needed a private life.
She also stated after meeting friends last night she had yet to cry about the end of our relationship stating she had felt frozen.
To be honest that really hurt.sounds selfish I know.
On the other hand she stated she knew I wasn't a narcissist which is a relief and commented that I had been really good throughout all of this and had seemed "present"
I had to go through all the family photos to find pictures of the dog for the kids.i stopped on just about every photo of her.was really heavy going.
So this evening I've waved them all off on their holiday and here I am on my own in an empty house feeling like I have lost everything my wife, my home, my family life, my dog.
This level of change is almost unbearable.
In a weeks time I will be in the new property.there will be fewer reasons to attend the house and be around her and the kids.
She will have her private time.
By me being able to have the kids this will facilitate her being able to have her single life.
Man this is a lot right now.
Sorry for the long download.
J,
Sorry about your dog. I know it’s tough right now but it will get better.
The best thing to do is to give her time and space.
Sorry to hear about your lose. Dogs love us unconditionally.
Thanks guys
It's been rough and through it all I just want to hold her.
I have no real choice other than giving her time and space.everything seems out of my control.
Which it is I guess, other than myself.
Going through a rough patch fighting the urge to tell her how I feel and pursuing another chance.
Knowing detaching is best but arguing with myself that she will meet someone else, be happier etc etc.
Nagging negative thought patterns.
Might be posting a lot over the next week.
Hi JD. Been there! Lots of us have that T-shirt I imagine.
Yes give her time and space. And then, give her more.
You will go through a few rough patches. That is normal. Don't deny yourself to feel it. Feel it. For me, after 5 months (I haven't seen W for just over a month now), the rough patches are getting much, much shorter. Like minutes rather than hours or days.
Try to avoid the negative patterns. I get it. You'll probably be picturing her talking to her mates about you in a derogatory way, or perhaps missing you alone at home but then refusing to talk to you, talking to her family for hours and trying to convince them all that you "weren't right together", or drunkenly bragging to friends on a night out that she doesn't need you and she'll be 'fine'. Remember - don't believe all they do and say, even months down the line.
One really good phrase that has stuck with me on this thread is "you'll never look stronger than when you are walking away." Or words to that effect anyway. Be strong and detach, GAL, do your 180s (for YOU, not her), and you'll have improved a huge amount. It really doesn't take long. It took about 6-8 weeks for me before people noticed changes. Then show everyone the new you. Friends, family, work. They will support you and reinforce your new, fresher, positive attitude.
Post. And post some more.
Thanks DaB35
Tough.trying to make the changes and every time I'm around her we talk and there's always a connection of some sort only she's in the position of strength and I'm reacting.
Real hard not to share how I'm feeling with the person i always shared with for 15 years.
This is the process I guess of facing how unhappy she was and learning to disentangle.
Time to find out who I am.
Sorry for the slow reply, I typed this up early yesterday but apparently never sent it:
J, I'll post the castle analogy down at the bottom of this post.
She invited me to stay for something to eat. I put the kids to bed and she mentioned how the day had seemed too close to normal and to the past and how she would be happier once I have my own place. I validated that the must have been difficult for her.and I left on kinda good terms.
This right here is EXACTLY what the picnic analogy is describing. She suddenly realized where she was and what was happening and ran back into the castle. Good response in just validating.
At 16years old I have to make the decision to end his suffering.
Oh man, sorry to hear that. That old saying "when it rains is pours" really seems to apply to many of our sitches. Not too long after BD my dad was diagnosed with throat cancer, it's just a lot to have to deal with misery and grief on multiple fronts.
Yesterday she was crying and I approached her and she set a clear boundary that she didn't want any comfort.
Later in the day she again reiterated how she needed a private life.
She also stated after meeting friends last night she had yet to cry about the end of our relationship stating she had felt frozen.
That sure seems like adding insult to injury giving what you are going through, but unfortunately WAS's can be so cold and uncaring at times like that. For now she is not who she was. Maybe she will be again some day, but it could be quite a while.
Castle/ picnic analogy (from many years ago):
Imagine that the WAS is inside an impenetrable castle. WAS is deep inside the castle walls and has no desire to see the outside world. WAS has his/her own world right there inside those cold, stone walls.
Then there's you. You're sitting on the other side of the moat (drawbridge is up, btw). You've got a nice blanket laid out on the cool, green grass, and you're enjoying yourself by having a wonderful picnic all alone. You're absolutely content with this, and aren't even concerned with the castle and the WAS within (in fact, you've got your back to it).
Eventually, WAS gets a little curious about the what's going on outside the castle, and decides to take a peek over the walls. WAS sees you, just sitting there enjoying yourself. He/She is surprised, because previously you had been throwing rocks at the castle, singing and dancing in hopes of getting their attention. WAS is wondering what you're up to, and why you're so content. After a while, WAS decides to lower the drawbridge and join you at your picnic. WAS sits down, and you just act as if -- you're happy, confident, etc. Suddenly, WAS realized where he/she is and what he/she is doing, and it scares the hell out him/her. WAS jumps up and dashes back to the castle for no apparent reason. You however, didn't even budge or flinch. WAS peeks back out to see what you're doing, and notices that you're still sitting in the same place, enjoying yourself without concern. Again, WAS is surprised, and eventually comes out again. This time WAS stays a little longer, but again gets spooked and runs back. However, you're still not deterred from enjoying your picnic. The WAS's visits begin to happen more and more, and they last longer and longer. Once he/she realizes that there is no risk for him/her (i.e. that you won't bring up the R, pursue her, get angry, become needy, etc), WAS begins to reflect on things, and begins questioning his/her choice to go to the castle. In time, WAS decides to bring up the R, and this is when you can discuss it with him/her because WAS is ready and has initiated the talk.
THIS is why it is important to avoid pursuing, because it gives the WAS the opportunity to miss you, reflect, see your changes and strength, etc. So, the next time me or anyone else tells you to just enjoy your picnic, you'll know what it means. This is a term that we used a lot this summer, but it kind of went away. I think it describes the pursuit dynamic perfectly. Don't chase the WAS back into the castle and hold him/her captive by standing outside the walls and trying to get his/her attention. As long as this is the case, it is likely that they'd rather starve themselves in their castle than come out.
Ok.thanks guys.
This is a bit of a biggy for me today.
I have been given a diagnosis of avoident personality disorder with fear of intimacy and depression on top.
In some ways I feel relief that I know what I'm working with and a clearer picture of what needs to change and a starting point for how to go about this.
Looking for thoughts and advice as to whether this is something I should share with my wife.
On the one hand it might reinforce the idea that I am not desirable and weak or broken ( not the person you would want a relationship with) and on the other it may make sense of the issues in our relationship and combat her narrative that I was withholding affection in order to control and abuse her.
Kinda stuck here as to whether it would help her understand?or if it's the right thing to do.
I don’t think I’d tell her. She could definitely use that against you when/if needed.
Logic, reason and empathy are at the bottom of the WWs list.
If they were not the D rate would be cut in more then half.
So I'm feeling extremely anxious about my Wife and kids returning from their holiday tomorrow.
She has been communicating about the kids , sending photos and sharing jokes. All of which have I admit raised my hopes probably above where it should be at this time.
There was one morning where she shared that our 6yr old daughter had got lost in the complex and it had really panicked my wife. I could tell she had been worried to tell me. I reassured her and validated how difficult and scary it must have been.
I guess I'm anxious about them returning and that she will remain free of doubt that this is what she wants.
This new normal includes me getting the keys to my new place Friday and with the dog gone and a place for the kids to stay the distance between us will have grown considerably.
Thus giving her the private life she says she wants.
I guess I feel like I'm not fighting for our relationship by giving her what she wants.
Desperately want to know where I stand and if there is any hope right now.
Again I know that this neediness will push her away.
Just feel inactive.
This is compounded by her believe I was trying to control her and withholding affection to control her when in fact it was due to some significant issues on my part with fear of intimacy.
Just anxious that when I see her I'm going to struggle to portray that I'm doing fine without her.
Additionally
What do i do if she raises divorce? She has already stated she is no longer my wife and regardless of any changes she will never come back.
Do I state that I don't want a divorce that I still love her or that I'd prefer we worked on our issues/ relationship but won't stand in her way.
I'm dreading this being raised
J,
I would leave out the you still love her.
I guess I'm anxious about them returning and that she will remain free of doubt that this is what she wants.
She says she's not your wife, your compliments offend her, she'll never return, and she wants a private life. She says point blank she doesn't trust you. Isn't it obvious labeling yourself mentally ill and promising to change is doomed? It might have been enough back when she was deciding whether or not to leave you.
With the DB approach you work on bettering yourself--e.g., tackle APD and Depression. Maybe your wife will discover being away from her kids 50%, financial hardships, and the reality of modern dating doesn't live up to its grass is greener promises and she returns to this new and better you. Maybe after working out your issues you find a new and better wife, or maybe you discover a new and better life doesn't require any wife.
It [censored] being at rock bottom. This forum is full of others who've been there. You can pull through this.
Thanks LH19
We just had a huge blow out via whatsapp
Started with her offloading about how difficult the kids had been today and how she had been struggling while away on holiday with them.
I replied I knew it must be hard.
She then replied that she felt like she was messaging a call centre and wouldn't offload to me again.
I said it was ok, they are our kids.
Then came a massive offload from her.
How sad she was losing her husband and best friend while seeing couples on holiday.
How she felt cheated robbed and angry
How she no longer loved or trusted me and now she had nothing
How she had to rebuild while so vulnerable
How I was just going out and making new friends
(This was weird as I went out 1 night this week with my one friend who came Down for the weekend to offer support)
How I could just change now and how cheated she felt that I hadn't done it while together.
How everyone thinks "wow what a great guy"
Then a "F U!"
How because of my mental health I'm the victim with loads of support and she has nothing ( I have just my mental health nurse at the moment, zero social contacts locally she has a huge extended group of friends who she speaks to and sees daily)
How I had lied about changes last time we seperated just to get back and abuse her
How I have been Gaslighting her.
Then she changed tact
Asked when I could pack my belongings. When I got keys for new flat
That she didn't want to be around when I packed and just wanted her own life.
Then could I stay at the house this weekend to look after kids as her friend is coming down and she would like to go out!
I'm completely frazzled by it all to be honest
We just had a huge blow out via whatsapp I'm completely frazzled by it all to be honest
You said "WE" had a blow-out, but only gave her side of the conversation. Did you have a blow-out, too?
That is a ton for someone to dump on you at once! Most people would be frazzled.
You are lucky. This means she still cares.
I hope you just listened and validated. I was ready for MsR2C to do this, but in never came.
Keep working on you. She is noticing. She is going to test you. Pass the tests.
I was mostly just validating, I didn't apologise or argue anything. I did say I missed the kids and would watch them.
Despite feeling exhausted by the conversation and upset after having mostly positive messages about the kids and holiday this week.
It is the first glimmer I have seen that she is upset by the seperation.
I agree with R2C she is going to test you. Stay strong and just listen and validate. Fight the urge to pursue.
When you respond, do these things:
1. Compose a response
2. Cut out about 30-50% of the text
3. Wait a bit longer than you think you should to hit send
This will stop you feeling exhausted by chats like these, gives you a little time to think, and doesn't make you feel pressured to go back to her quickly.
What do i do if she raises divorce?
W:"I want a divorce right now!!"
H:"I see many solutions to our problems, but if divorce is the ONLY way for you to be happy, I will not stand in your way."
W:"Bla bla bla bla"
H:"I understand you feel that way" And keep validating.
Thank you everyone
It means a lot.
Hey Jdevast - your W's reactions sound similar to mine, you're not alone. It's tough to hear untruths and not correct them. I struggled with validating when I hear things that are factually-false ("You've never let me make a decision") and her reaction to your validation is similar to what I heard. So, don't read too much into it - it's "normal" (or, as normal as can be given the situation).
And it sounds like it's working - people are noticing your positive changes and that's affecting her narrative. She wants to believe that you are a demon capable of nothing but evil but you're reacting in positive ways she did not expect. Good job!
Keep being AMOAFWL (including being an amazing dad) - even on dark days that will help carry you through.
Last comment - I did as much of the detachment as I could and W's reaction wasn't positive. She needs space and she moved out in Aug. So, this may get worse before it gets better. But even if the MR gets worse, you'll feel better - more in control, more of yourself rather than someone bending around another's demands.
Keep it up!
W:"You've never let me make a decision"
H:"I am sorry you feel that way"
F U was my exww favorite response when I wouldnt argue back. I would sit back and validate her feelings until she started berating me and putting me down. Then I would try to walk away and she would follow me around trying to get a rise out of me. Since she couldnt get me to argue back she would start with the FU.
Hang on tight to DB . She’s definitely testing you . I got the same texts many times . Same response . I see many solutions to our marriage. I respect your decision and love you enough to let you go . Validate validate and more validating .
When the line of disrespect starts name calling or the F U. Just state I respect myself enough not to allow anyone to speak to me this way . If you continue I will ____ (insert consequence )Example : hang up or no longer respond . She will get even angrier but she will get the picture after a few times .
She’s noticing your positive changes . GAL , smile , be friendly but distant and being mysterious .
So wife and family returned from the holiday and I've been staying at the family home over the weekend.
Things had mostly been good. Missed the kids loads and we had chatted about the holiday etc.
Friday night I watched a movie with the wife and we shared some beers.
Trying hard to keep a PMA didn't raise anything about us I validated and validated . Shared some laughs, she questioned several times about my childhood experience and lack of family affection etc.
I kept my answers pretty short but we do have a habit of sharing about these things.
She went out Saturday night , I watched the kids.
Things were good Sunday , she shared details of her night out, she was much more friendly offering help with me moving into new place etc. I cooked a family roast and we shared wine, one of her new friends came over and we all sort of chatted in the kitchen.
Conversation turned to friends relationships and in hindsight I should have left the room.
My wife made several statements about the need to be with someone who came to you from an equal place.
Not neediness and someone who you wanted to share your life with.
I kept pretty quite and just got on with the cooking.
Meal went well ,got the kids to bed and slept in the spare room.
This morning the drawbridge slammed shut again.
She stated that these past few days were no good for anyone, it made her confused and probably confused me and the kids too.
She was also concerned about what her friends would think
She said she needed a private life, that she had shared too much with me about what she was doing socially and that we should only communicate about work and kids.
I validated and replied that things would be easier once I moved into new place this week and could help take some of the pressure off.
She stated that the kids were not the pressure, that I had been the burden , that she fell into feeling sad about me, and that she knew that all my issues could be worked through but that it was no longer her business.
I validated and agreed with this.
She then went on to say that eventually we would meet or sleep with someone and that she didn't want either of us to know about what the other was doing as that was the difficult and painful bit.
I told her I wasn't interested in meeting someone
She said at some point we will want to have some fun.
I didn't respond to that
She reiterated that everything had felt too normal the last few days and that she didn't trust me or that I wasnt working on her.
20 mins later she came back , raised the wills and power of attorney etc.
I stated as far as my kids were concerned I would keep her named on my will and power of attorney etc.
She then raised getting a legal seperation after Christmas
I didn't really respond to this, I just listened to her.
I understand the last few days have been confusing for her. That after 16 years we have a habit of wanting to share with each other and Every time things seem amicable or too close the walls and drawbridge go up quick.
We are going to be around each other a bit this week with me moving out the house etc ( I did turn down the offer of help)
I realise I have to pull back and fight the urge to pursue or reconnect.
I do like it when we do connect and share a laugh.
Is now the time to go back to her and state how I don't want a legal seperation or divorce but that I won't stand in her way
What are some examples of how to word this?
She's bound to be incredulous that I would want to work on things or that I saw a future for us.
I would fully expect an angry reaction
Any advice fully appreciated
Is now the time to go back to her and state how I don't want a legal seperation or divorce but that I won't stand in her way
Absolutely not. Your W is conflicted and is trying to catch herself when she feels herself enjoying your company. I think that's a great sign. Keep validating your W and act "as if" you have had an awakening and now realize that you are going to be fine no matter what happens to your marriage. Keep smiling around W, keep having fun with the kids.
And lastly, remember this will not resolve quickly. It will take much longer than you would like so keep your expectations next to nothing.
Is now the time to go back to her and state how I don't want a legal separation or divorce but that I won't stand in her way
Absolutely not. She knows.
What are some examples of how to word this?
W:"H, I think now is the time to legal separation"
H:"W,I see many solutions to our problems, if that is the ONLY WAY, for you to be happy, I will not stand in your way"
I'm not sure how conflicted she actually is.
I ended up staying over again last night, as the drains leading out to sewer were blocked (nice job)
We chat about non connected stuff, this morning she's talking about how she is looking forward to doing more art, connecting with more people, singing , acting etc etc.
She's having a big dinner party /party tonight with her large group of new friends.
Made it clear she wanted me no where near the house.
It seems to me that more and more she feels free and liberated. And this party is almost a celebration of her liberty and our seperation.
I don't know how I can compete with this yearning for freedom or all these new uber cool friends.
I know I can't , and also that that is the wrong mindset.
It just appears that she is really really happy to be liberated and free and that her future looks so positive leaving a relationship that I believe she has convinced herself that she was trapped in.
This morning the drawbridge slammed shut again.
She stated that these past few days were no good for anyone, it made her confused and probably confused me and the kids too.
She was also concerned about what her friends would think
She said she needed a private life, that she had shared too much with me about what she was doing socially and that we should only communicate about work and kids.
I validated and replied that things would be easier once I moved into new place this week and could help take some of the pressure off.
First off if you are referring to the picnic analogy then you are 100% correct. She went out and sat down for the picnic and then suddenly realized where she was and with who and ran away. She ran back in the castle and raised the drawbridge.Totally normal reaction, that's why there is a picnic analogy in the first place!
She stated that the kids were not the pressure, that I had been the burden , that she fell into feeling sad about me, and that she knew that all my issues could be worked through but that it was no longer her business.
I validated and agreed with this.
Good. She says blah blah blah, you listen and validate. Why? Because what she's saying is just a reflection of her mindset at that moment in time. She may think something completely differently in a month, week or even hour.
It just appears that she is really really happy to be liberated and free and that her future looks so positive leaving a relationship that I believe she has convinced herself that she was trapped in.
WAS's are masters of acting "as if". They act like the new life they're pursuing is perfect, the answer to all their hopes and dreams. The reality is she's struggling. There's a storm inside her, she's fighting between wanting to go back to her old life and thinking she needs to pursue a new one. Which will win out is anyone's guess, but don't believe the placid, happy face she's putting on, it's a mask.
I'm sorry you are experiencing this. Im sure it is playing hell on your self worth making you feel like you have been discarded. I know its very difficult to convince yourseof of whether what they are doing is right or wrong. If it's just right for them? If it has anything to do with us? Etc. Sometimes I look at the dynamic of relationships. Guy meets Girl. Guy and Girl love each other. Societal influences and willigness to marry. Decide to get married. Have a few kids, ten years go by. Feelings change. Struggles come up, unresolved issues persist, boundaries get crossed....you know life...People start to question how the relationship is benefiting them. They want to start pursuing Independence liberty and freedom, I no longer want to be tied down or at least to that person. I think some people eventually get tired feeling obligated kids spouses family members, Etc. They lose themselves in their identity. I know from an outside perspective it seems like they're putting all their newfound friends first and you last, when you used to come first in their lives. That you are somewhat missing out. That their happiness is coming at the expense of leaving you. I know it hurts, and I know they can't see it. But AT THIS TIME They have to do what they think is right for them. Whether you know its right or wrong whatever it is they are doing. They did what they thought was right when they got married, they thought what they did was right when they hunkered down and probably took on more responsibility then they could handle and lost themselves and their identity in the process, and wanted freedom from that. If someone lets you go, its [censored], it hurts, its unraveling, uncoupling, and all these other helpless, lonely feelings that are attached to you, your identity, and worth. Iblmiw it feels like betrayal. But it doesn't have to be. Granted we don't have control over choices other people make, but we do have control over ourselves, and the meaning we assign to tjings, how we think about things, and how we respond to them. Try to be happy for her. I know it feels like they are making out, and you are losing. Try to be happy for them. Even if it isn't what you want. Because holding onto someone that doesn't want us, and us focusing on their happiness keeps us from growing. People stay because they want to stay and leave because they want to leave.
What do you think you can do right now to keep the focus on you, get comfortable with you again, and do what is right for you RIGHT NOW? What can you do/plan/learn from this to get you moving in the right direction of personal fulfilment? Right now you have to figure out how you want to be and what direction it is going to take. Because obviously the other person isn't going to share it with you. So you do have a choice. Maybe not the best of current curcumstances, but you do have a choice.
Hope this helps. There will be something good to come out of all of this. It may not be right away, next month, or next year, but we will all eventually get there.
It just appears that she is really really happy to be liberated and free and that her future looks so positive leaving a relationship that I believe she has convinced herself that she was trapped in.
How much do you love her? Do you love her to the point that you want her to be happy, no matter what that means for you? Or do you love her as long as you are getting what you want out of it?
I ran up early in my sitch on an anti-divorce author that spent a good time up front trying to get the LBH to see that true love means wanting your WAW to be happy....even if that means she does what she is doing. She is trying to be happy. Maybe she really is, maybe she is faking it? All you can do is love and support her. Doing that early in my sitch is what helped to start turning my sitch around.
I'd add to Steve and IH above.
Be happy for her, even if it's not your perfect solution at the moment.
Something good will come out this, as IH says above. I'd read the sticky thread "You will not die" at the top of the Newcomers board. I read it regularly even now. You have to believe that you will be fine whatever the outcome.
So yeah.
I do love her deeply. First to admit I am struggling with loving enough to let her go.
Also struggling deeply with concept of my happiness without her by my side.
Obviously I didn't show enough during the marriage for her to feel it was a more attractive option as opposed to her idea of freedom.
The idea of losing her is gut wrenching but she has already left and appears clear that she no longer loves me.
Deep down I want her to be happy, if she was to be with me I would want it to be because she chose to be.
Still feels like early days to me, although I recognise she built towards this for a long time.
Is DBing truly about letting go? It feels a lot like giving up on the relationship
I feel a compulsion to say it doesn't have to be this way
I want to keep fighting for this in some way , obviously without pushing her away.
I guess somewhere that emotional dependency is hard to shake and I'm still heavily invested in her.
Is DBing truly about letting go? It feels a lot like giving up on the relationship
This is flawed. Based on the idea that letting go is giving up. You realize that those two are not the same, right? Most people that have kids, raise them to be 18-25....then let them go. But they NEVER give up on them. So that proves that letting go and giving up are not analogous.
So let her go. Because really you have no other choice. Be glad that she is happy. But that doesn't mean you ever give up. I've seen a lot of sitches where the WAS moves out, D's, even gets married to a divorce partner.....but eventually still comes back and wants to R.Sometimes the LBS is still open to it, sometimes they aren't. But the point is that there is always that chance.
Thankyou steve.
It's an emotionally led day and objectivity is out the window.
Yes, I want her independence and happiness the same as I do for my kids.
That's the person i fell in love with. Not the person who got bound up with me in resentment and frustration and anger.
Is that ever said to the leaving spouse e.g. "I want you to be happy" or the person you are now is the person i fell in love with
Truth is I have no idea what she fell in love with.
But yes I don't think my love for her will ever diminish.
Even if we never reconcile , at some point in the future I would want to share what she meant to me.
Honestly would want no other mother to my kids and I know she has flaws but cripes she shines.
Tell myself daily to drop the rope but I think it's glued to my guts.
Ok I feel compelled to ask to sit down and talk with her.
So instead I'm posting it.
I would like to tell her yes I love her enough to let her go.
I would like her to know that the person she is now is the person i fell in love with.
I would like her to know that all the times over the last year I was grumpy or jealous about her going out was because I missed going out together with her as my partner In crime.
I would like her to know I was saddened by the fact she didn't pick up the guitar I bought her last year until our breakup
I would like her to know that I think her singing voice is beautiful
These are things I would like her to know.
If the split is forever at some point she should know.
I guess I just don't know if it's forever or not. If I drop the rope and move towards acceptance is it not better to not leave things unsaid or is it preferable to keep validating never bringing this stuff up.
So an emotional night fuelled by a few drinks.
Better to rant here I guess
Feel slightly clearer headed this morning. Distracted by work and setting up the new house.
Had several work and kid related texts from about 8am, very matter of fact from her.
No mention of party from either of us.
Sent me a weird text saying the mood is so much better in the mornings with new amazon echo AI speakers.
Just going to try and keep positive in all interactions without saying too much.
So while I feel less sappy than I did last night. Today I'm feeling a lot of anger and resentment towards my wife.
Yes I feel abandoned and betrayed. I forgot that she mentioned the other day that while in the relationship and going out meeting all these new friends that she didn't ever want to come home because of how negative or jealous I would act.
I feel that it was going out together that I missed, and the only reason she could go out to the early hours was because I was at home watching the kids. So I facilitated this in some way.
She never called to update that she was ok or what time she would be back.
If I called or texted I was being controlling
In the past when I went out. Despite calling she would ring and check up every 45mins and was incredibly jealous.
I know this anger is normal.
I have to go pick my daughter up from school later so will see my wife this evening.
Going to be hard to maintain a Pma.
I'm also feeling like I should do less to help. I moved out, I jump when she calls to help out with kids or home, I respected her decision to not even talk about why we were seperating etc.
Did all this to placate her, very prone to trying to nice her back.
I sometimes feel it would be somewhat malicious to make it more difficult for her.
Not to jump when she calls, or block some of her planned nights out by not being available for the kids.
That's a hard one to balance up, I want to see my kids as much as possible but by doing so it just facilitates her single life and part of me feels she chose this road and should feel some of the hardship.
As a former alcoholic, I would like to suggest something to you. These sitches are hard enough to deal with properly when you are clear and sober minded, let alone when you've clouded your judgement with a mind-altering substance. Consider making one of your 180s to not drink until your sitch has reached its logical conclusion.
Just a thought.
As far as feeling sappy last night and angry this morning, we refer to this as the emotional roller-coaster. You will cycle between feelings like this for a while. Just try to remain consistent in action and word through the up-and-downs. Many a LBS has done more harm to their sitch by being impulsive on that emotional roller-coaster. Reaching out to her while sappy, harping on her while angry will only further worsen your sitch. Stick to the plan. Let the process work. Read, study, and know sandi's rules. I kept a copy of them locally on my phone so I could read them multiple times a day.
Set a schedule with the kids. Don't let her constantly reconvene regularly scheduled days to suit her GAL and new single life. They all do this. They make all these plans with the GF's GGW, events concerts, happy hour, wine tasting etc. and expect you to rearrange you're schedule for them because "They planned it in advance" without giving you due notice, and will try and place it on you and sometimes even guilt you into wanting to see your kids so they can go socialize.
Just make sure there is an even exchange of reciprocity. Make plans yourself weeks out. See if it conflicts with the days you have the kids, and test the waters to see if she will exchange evenly, like for like if she wants to swap out days. Dont allow her to cake eat on this, and don't enable her for nothing every time she wants to to GALavanting without you.
She should feel some of the hardship of the choices she is making. Not to be punitive, but fully realized accept the consequences of her actions. Financially, emotionally. socially, etc.. You are not her lap dog to baby sit every time she wants to go out and socialize. Get even reciprocity with this and set some boundaries and solid communications that you will not change your plans or days with the kids, unless you are given notice well in advance. At least 2 to 3 weeks in advanced, and make sure you get an equal swap for those days in writing. Otherwise they will keep asking you last minute to drop your plans to watch the kids, while they get to go out with friends and potentialy pursue other people.
Thanks IHCLACS
That gives me some clarity, it's clear to me that she is wrapped up in self at the moment and there remains an expectation that I should be watching the kids when she wants to socialise.
Fact remains she would never have made all these new friends or tasted this new freedom if I hadn't been at home watching the kids.
Tonight I picked up my daughter as wife took car into garage. I told my wife I could do this as I wouldn't be going out til later. Gave no details ( as I didn't actually have any plans)
When she returned she was super reserved and cold. Almost an unspoken silence about her party.
I just refused to ask her about it and maintained a positive attitude towards the kids.
She strangely offered me dinner at the same time the atmosphere was that I was not welcome.
Daughter made a scene about me leaving and wife asked if I would stay an extra 30mins to put her to bed.
While I put my daughter to bed, wife starts calling that she couldn't find her chip and pin reader for our business account.
Without saying so directly she sure as he'll was blaming me for her not being able to find it.
She stomped and moaned for a good 20 mins, but I didn't bite, didn't try and defend myself and kept positive in offering to help her find it.
This seemed to rile her more but I persevered until I left.
10 mins later she texted to apologise for losing her temper, said it was likely her that misplaced it.
I responded "No worries, know it's frustrating , when I get back to the studio later I'll have another look and let you know"
Gotta say it does feel good when not biting or letting her mood dictate mine.
Boy it does take a lot of effort tho , and a need to stay mentally present throughout every interaction.
Think I fell into a trap this morning
Last night 30mins after previous text I received another message saying our daughter was really distraught and missing me.
I stated that sounded tough and asked what i could do
She stated that daughter would like me to take her to school in the morning ( This felt almost like an invitation to stay over)
So I composed myself and replied that I could cycle over early and take her into school.
So that's what i did this morning, after dropping her off I went back to the family home to pick up my bag and bike.
Had a cup of tea, before leaving and wife started talking about her party, and how good it was to have friends that were genuine, that despite all going through hardships they could all just laugh and be silly together.
I validated that this was good.
She then started talking about the local social scene and how open and genuine the scene was.
She carried on talking about how much was going on locally
This is all sort of a sore point for me as over the last 6 months before BD she was going out more and more and I feel she intentionally kept me seperate from this part of her life.
On some level I feel she was ashamed of me. And I felt like asking her today if she had felt ashamed.
Luckily I didn't but I do feel I screwed up by saying that I had wanted to go out with her more and that I had missed going out together.
This was stupid of me.
She stated I hadn't wanted to enough, that it had fell on her to arrange sitters etc.
She went on to say that , that stuffs all in the past now, all the if only's and buts are gone.
That it was an unhappy place and that the changes in me being more open and going out wouldn't have happened with out the seperation.
She then stated that I would be happier and in a better place for it.
I didn't say much ,just tried to keep eye contact and nodded.
I did say I realised some change had to happen.
So because of that foolish interaction I feel she has recomposed herself and appears surer than ever.
I know this is early days and I would be a fool to think I could change her mind.
Going to have to see her throughout the day due to Halloween etc.
She's back to offering to help transport my belongings etc.
Have to stay consistent through the day.
J,
Yeah these are interactions that happen all the time to the LBS. That is why we always advise to listen and validate. The LBS always falls into the trap that is they just say that magical sentence it will get WW to second guess her choice. However in reality it just reassures the WW that you are still on the hook as plan B and they have time to explore other options.
You will see changes when she starts to wonder about where you stand.
It's OK to help with your D but the long convos need to stop. Have a brief convo, then excuse yourself and leave. Always be the first to end convos and first to leave!
I agree, every long convo leads to some sort of pain
She loves to talk, and she was my best friend and partner for 16years.
It's an easy trap to fall into.
Halloween tonight so will try and keep all focus on the kids.
I know my son wants to watch a horror movie with me tonight.
I think she is angling towards going out rather than watching a movie together.
Obviously it makes it uncomfortable for her.
Maybe I'll swing it so I go out instead.
So here we go for the evening
Just received a call from wife as to who was picking daughter up.
I replied we hadn't discussed it today.
She says I should as she has been getting everything ready.
Pick up is in 10mins time, I told her I was just dealing with something but would see them all at home in an hour.
Wife then starts to say that she feels she has done everything in getting ready for Halloween and over the last few weeks.
That she knew I was busy at work but that I could have done more at home.
(This is the home I have been kicked out of and been made clear it makes her uncomfortable when I'm there)
So I just validated, she paused to say something else, felt like she was looking for an argument. Not biting.
I 'll go round offer to help with anything I can and then keep my focus on the kids.
Strapping in for a testing night
Do you answer every time she calls?
Hi Steve.
Yeah to be honest I do, didn't to start with, but with shared business and kids I have been recently and definitely a temptation to jump when she does.
Yeah to be honest I do, didn't to start with, but with shared business and kids I have been recently and definitely a temptation to jump when she does.
Voice mail is your friend.
I know my son wants to watch a horror movie with me tonight.
That is what I would do.
I think she is angling towards going out
Wish her a good time.
Really struggling today.
Had a good Halloween with the kids. Wife seemed happy. She even teased me a bit with a joke about cleaning up with the kids.
This morning I'm in the family home alone packing my things ,trying to seperate our shared belongings. She's chosen to go out as she didn't want to be here.
I would like to think it's because it's emotional for her too. But she is showing no signs. Very matter of fact. " I don't mind what you take etc, not going to argue over anything, half of it is yours but you understand why I don't want to be here"
Part of me feels she just dosent want to face any of the reality, I have no idea whether she cares or not.
Not sure it matters as it's not like she is going to change her mind.
She will come back later to give me a lift.
How the he'll do i keep a Pma or make out this isn't bothering me , on the day I'm walking away from the home, my family and symbolically my wife?
I feel all of this just cements her moving forward having all reminders if me removed.
I should probably add I'm feeling a lot of anger also today.
Emotional temptation to let her know " there you've got what you want, hope you're happy"
Childish and spiteful I know , just juggling a lot of emotions and as ever staying calm and Pma feels like I'm just giving up.
I’m here with you JD. It’s just so tempting to say angry things isn’t it. I’ve had that temptation so many times but I haven’t acted on it. You draw on that huge reservoir of willpower you have in you jd. In moments of weakness pain and anger I repeat the word ‘calm’ over and over again whilst breathing- 4 seconds inhalation then 5 seconds exhaling. Try it for me please. You got this buddy!
J,
I am sorry you are going through this right now.
It is my opinion that they do not show sadness in public because that will put into question their decision and they don't want someone trying to talk them out of it. Also knowing that your are there as plan b is comforting to them in case it doesn't work out. Remember that how they feel now is how they think they are always going to feel. Just as they believe that you are always going to feel the way you do now. We both obviously know that feelings change.
Can't you get a lift from someone else?
Really struggling today.
Had a good Halloween with the kids. Wife seemed happy. She even teased me a bit with a joke about cleaning up with the kids.
This morning I'm in the family home alone packing my things ,trying to seperate our shared belongings. She's chosen to go out as she didn't want to be here.
I would like to think it's because it's emotional for her too. But she is showing no signs. Very matter of fact. " I don't mind what you take etc, not going to argue over anything, half of it is yours but you understand why I don't want to be here"
Part of me feels she just dosent want to face any of the reality, I have no idea whether she cares or not.
Not sure it matters as it's not like she is going to change her mind.
She will come back later to give me a lift.
How the he'll do i keep a Pma or make out this isn't bothering me , on the day I'm walking away from the home, my family and symbolically my wife?
I feel all of this just cements her moving forward having all reminders if me removed.
I will be in the same exact boat tonight and tomorrow moving. Yesterday XW and I went out with S2 to to go trick-or-treating and we had a good time I was upbeat positive and happy. She was kind of run-down from work and you could tell she was in a funk. Last night I had to stomach XW passing off S2 to brother-in-law and changing him and given him his bottle and putting him to bed. Almost as if I was being replaced and he was in training in taking care of him since I'm leaving the home tomorrow for good. I didn't let it phase me. But I sucked it up and still remained positive Jdevast. The honest to God truth is. THEY DONT CARE! Their love has gone cold for us in a romantic and marital sense. The only reason why they won't be in the house is not because of emotional reasons but because they want to give you your space and not get in your way, or deal with any potential emotions you may emit, or pleas or behaviors for last chances since they are done. I think a part of them feels guilty for what they're doing but they still feel justified and don't have any intention of looking back. Being moody spiteful resentful needy and insecure only cements that justification. It's a victim mindset of "see what you are doing to me?" Trust me I know a lot about this going to stop doing it for the rest of my life. I know you are probably angry and it feel like you are losing a lot based on someone else's decisions. But let me ask you something? See? There is how we are, how we think, and how we feel. And that's ok to have all of that.. But there is also how we present ourselves to other people and how they perceive that. We have to be aware of that. Would you just walk into work one morning and lash out at your co-workers because you were having a bad day and would it be right? Showing that resentment and holding on to it how is that serving you or benefiting your interactions with XW?? It's just going to make you more topsy-turvy and cement their position further that they are making the right choice. At this point in the game. Any positive or negative influences are going to have any effect on them anyway. so you might as well change your mindset and make it a positive one for you and learning how to control your emotions deal with them internally but yet still present yourself in a good fashion. Here is another weird way to try and look at it? Maybe moving and staying focused on getting your life settled can make you happy, and cut yourself off from The Source on the pain that you're feeling about the situation that you are in, or was in. something else to keep in mind for balance too. They are hurting whether they showed it or not. just because they act cold doesn't mean they don't have personal conflicts within themselves going on over all this. They just basically shut down the vulnerability factor., I'm willing to bet that make you keep a positive frame and act happy while you're moving is going to raise some questions from her. Directly or indirectly. It's kind of like this you almost have to convince them by exhibiting good behavior that they are the problem and not you. That they are the one making poor choices and not you. that you are secure in yourself and under emotional control no matter what and you'll be fine no matter what. Sadly it's taking me a year of In-House separation to learn this because I've always been a very emotionally reactive to every little thing. I've lost a spouse. But I've learned a lot and gained a lot more control over mysrkf. Hope this helps. I'm here for you for support if you need it. We all are.
I can't get any other lift unfortunately, I'm broke and really did isolate myself down here.
Trying to hold it together.
How do i try and play this when I see her today?
Calm and collected ? positive? Should something be said about how I didn't want this.
She seems to think this is all hunky dory, I don't want to show her how upset I am but I feel she needs to know I'm not ok with this.
Is it best to just keep my mouth shut?
She's just texted to ask how it's going.
Not going to reply immediately, but what do i say " fine thanks, nearly done" perhaps?
J, very sorry you're struggling, but it's to be expected! Of course you're down, having to move your stuff is a real gut-punch that it's all real and not going away anytime soon. It's OK to be down and depressed, allow yourself that.
I would like to think it's because it's emotional for her too. But she is showing no signs.
WAS's are masters of acting "as if". She absolutely is struggling, she just keeps it all deep within.
Part of me feels she just dosent want to face any of the reality, I have no idea whether she cares or not.
Not sure it matters as it's not like she is going to change her mind.
Yes she cares, no she's not going to change her mind anytime soon. It may happen later, but not right now. These things have to run their course.
How the he'll do i keep a Pma or make out this isn't bothering me , on the day I'm walking away from the home, my family and symbolically my wife?
Sometimes you just can't. It all sounds good on paper acting like you are fine and happy moving on, but in reality you can't mask your real feelings from someone who knows you so well. Just be you. Try not to have a mental breakdown in front of her, but she knows you're sad and you're not going to be able to completely conceal that fact.
How do i try and play this when I see her today?
Calm and collected ? positive?
I wouldn't try to act happy if you're not. Maybe make "neutral" your goal. Try to think of it like you are doing something at work, you may not like it but it's your job so you do it in a neutral manner without complaining or crying or such. Make sense?
Should something be said about how I didn't want this.
Definitely not.
Not going to reply immediately, but what do i say " fine thanks, nearly done" perhaps?
Yes, perfect. Stick to business. Be neutral.
Thanks people.
Really helps to get some of this out by posting.
The move went ok, I was pretty subdued to be fair but got on with it and was polite.
We stopped for a cigarette, she started talking about how now I had the flat, i could have the kids more, that maybe they would miss her, and not see her as the dominant one who had kicked their father out.
(Exactly what she did do)
She then brought up she knows my son messages me and didn't want secret messages going on about what she was doing e.g. her party the other night or me conspiring with him when he has had an argument with her.
I told her clearly that of course I message my son ,but she has nothing to worry about and that every time he has been upset or unfair with her I have either discussed it with her or challenged him on it.
She didn't seem satisfied but we left it at that.
While moving she started bringing up again how I could have the kids more, stated that she wanted to go out and see her friends on Sunday and could I watch them.
I was pretty tetchy to be honest and non commital, I said I had a class on Sunday and that I also had to confirm an online appointment.
She wasn't happy with this, I stated once I'm settled I would love to see the kids more.
She then said maybe I should have them for half the school term.
I said maybe, again pretty tetchy, my anger was getting the better of me , she knows me well enough to know that I'm not happy when I'm quiet.
Plan was that this flat was temporary until we sold the family home.
Then we could co parent 50/50.
She mentions know that she wants to put the house sale back until spring due to too much upheaval and even suggested buying me out.
I stated it's a lot to think about, once I'm settled we can discuss it.
Thanked her for the hand moving and she drove off.
I got the real sense she was looking for a fight about me not taking on a greater responsibility with the kids.
Truth is I have jumped every time she's asked or needed me.
The source of my anger is A: how cold and set in stone she appears to be about this whole thing and B, her desire for me to see the kids more is purely to facilitate her new social life.
Sat here thinking maybe I should text her to apologise for being tetchy today something like:
" hi , just wanted to say sorry for being tetchy earlier, it's been an emotional day for me, my course is ______time Sunday and my appointment is at _____pm"
Cripes! Now getting multiple texts asking questions about my appointment Sunday, and why can't I change it (because it means it's interfering with her plans)
I'm staying vague but politely not budging.
Slightly concerned that she will take this as more evidence of "controlling behaviour"
I feel I am being obstructive, that I should maybe drop the rope and let her new exciting single life play out.
At the same time, I have jumped every time for her and facilitated her new life.
I don't know if it's petty or not but she should realise it's not all roses and there is a reality to face.
Just concerned that she will find a way to make this about me obstructing or controlling her life.
Hi Jdevast, good job handling her badgering you during the move without budging or fighting.
I'd politely hold the line on Sunday and drop texting a bunch about it. Look at Augosto's thread for inspiration. You're not being controlling--telling her what to do. She can do whatever she wants. You set a boundary on what you will do and showing her you can stick to your boundaries once chosen is strength.
I agree with CW, not bending to her will is certainly not you being controlling. If you have plans then tell her and leave it at that.
J,
Just ignore the texts about your appointment. Definitely do not send a text to apologize. Definitely drop the rope.
She will realize it’s just going to take longer then you are most likely willing to wait.
So I've just had an offer from a friend to move back to London.find work there.
It would be a huge wrench and cause more distance between my wife and kids.
To be honest I have done everything she's wanted to make this seperation easier for her, I think in an attempt to nice her back.
So I'm thinking I at least need to put this out in front of her , let her realise some of the consequences.
Obviously I wouldn't see my kids as much ,but she wouldn't be pulling my strings
Looking for advice as to whether I should just float this out there with her.
"I'm thinking it might not be best I stay in this small town, everyone knows each other ,all the social scene is entwined etc etc.
To be honest kinda feels like an ultimatum. May backfire.
Is it better to be close to kids and her or put the threat of serious distance and reality there.
It may well be better for me.
She has been self first and maybe I need to.
She keeps talking about the future, and possibilities of meeting someone new, she stated the other day she believes I would be happier, but it's a real small town.
Still kinda feels spiteful or one upmanship but at same time need her to know I'm not here to jump rope.
Advice needed guys and gals
Do what is best for you and your relationship with your kids.
That's staying near by short-term.
Still feel I should maybe float it with her. Let her know I'm not just back up child care.
So I'm thinking I at least need to put this out in front of her , let her realise some of the consequences. Looking for advice as to whether I should just float this out there with her. "I'm thinking it might not be best I stay in this small town"
Hi JDevast, I'm not sure why you'd "float" the idea to her--it sounds like fishing for a reaction. If you feel moving away is best for you and your kids, plan the move, and give her reasonable notice.
To be honest kinda feels like an ultimatum. May backfire.
I'd be more worried about how your kids would feel.