Hi everyone, I've been following these threads for some time now and finally am ready to post. My H and I have been together for 16 years, married 12, with a D7 and a D9. Once we had D7, our sex life dropped off significantly (I was the one with the lower sex drive), which was a source of a lot of frustration for him. Eventually, we started arguing more and more-- he'd be mean, I'd hold a grudge-- and our intimacy dwindled to the point where most of our conversations were just about logistics, the kids, politics-- not much about our relationship or how we were feeling about each other. We'd take short mini-breaks without the kids and have fun, romantic times, but once we got home it would be back to business as usual.
About two years ago, he started this process of feeling like I really wasn't attracted to him and that is why we weren't having sex and stopped initiating. (He didn’t tell this to me, just stopped to see if I would initiate… which I mostly didn’t.) After about six months of very infrequent sex, he told me he felt I wasn't attracted to him sexually and he didn't want to have sex anymore, that I broke him sexually. We were also arguing a lot and so decided to enter into MC about a year ago. At this point I really felt like most of our problems stemmed from him-- he has some anger management issues and would get pretty mean in arguments about stupid things, whereas I felt like we should be kinder to each other, though in retrospect I was just as culpable as he was. In addition, I think he was/is having some MLC issues, feeling like we had worked so hard to get where we are, now what; work started to taper off (he has his own business); started to question his religion; relationship with father started to deteriorate; etc. He turned 40 this year.
We were in MC for about six months, the first five months probably being us venting all our issues and relitigating fights in front of the MC. We read the love languages book and found that his primary love language was touch while that was much lower on my list; mine was acts of service (which he immediately started to do more of and has continued throughout this entire situation, interestingly enough— one of my major complaints was that he didn’t help out enough around the house and with the kids, and he is now at 50% or more with cooking, grocery shopping, carting around kids, etc.).
We ended up going away for a long weekend about seven months ago during which we had a lot of heart to hearts and tears and I ended up really coming to some realizations about how much I hurt him by withholding sex, and that I also had significant responsibility in our problems (previously I'd really been blaming him). This was a huge wake up call for me, but not so much for him-- throughout the time with our MC he was unable to commit to a shared end goal of a better marriage, but instead felt like our intimacy (emotional/physical) was gone and could never come back, and he was starting to talk more and more about other options (like moving to the basement or D, but this fantasy version of D where we would still be best friends and co-parent, he’d mow the lawn and still do all the things around the house he used to, we’d just live separately). A little after this I got the ILBYINILWY BD.
I did everything wrong-- tons of relationship talks, crying, me trying to convince him logically to keep trying, used the kids as a weapon, etc. I then read DB and started the process about five months ago. We stopped seeing the MC around this time because he really felt like she was on "my side" and I didn't think she was all that helpful if he wasn't committed/didn't trust her, but he has been seeing an IC for about nine months now (who I think might be the "you need to be happy" kind of IC). Also, I wanted to wait to re-start MC for him to be ready to commit to the R. I 180-ed, GALed, started exercising again, and also truly forgave him for his part in MR issues.
After several months of this, our relationship was much, much better and more fun and we have been getting along great. The resentment, anger, and dismissiveness I felt rolling off him in waves around BD time seem completely gone in favor of a nice/supportive friendship, but the sex is basically non-existent and he said he couldn't imagine ever having a sexual relationship with me again-- he feels his two choices are a passionless (though not loveless-- he is adamant that he does love me and we have a strong friendship) marriage or divorce and co-parenting.
Then about a month ago I got the second BD-- he admitted to an EA that had started back about eight months prior with someone who lives in another city to which he travels for work occasionally (I think he's seen her three or four times during this EA, though usually more than once on a single trip-- she'd pick him up at the airport, etc.). They had tried several times to cut it off but they have a connection, they can talk about everything, he’s attracted to her and her to him, etc etc. They'd met through a mutual friend a year earlier and had been in irregular contact (getting together for coffees when he was in her city, texting some, etc) and then she reached out to him because of a personal tragedy and had no-one else to talk to. She also needed career advice which he was of course happy to provide, and then they started talking on the phone and texting multiple times a week. A few weeks before the BD they decided to stop communicating with each other entirely because the relationship couldn't go anywhere at this point in time (since he is married)-- I think this was her more than him that cut it off.
I was devastated, and furious that he opened himself up to this relationship right during the time we were ostensibly working on our MR with the MC. (He feels like he's been working on the MR for years (= complaining that I don’t want to have sex enough), while I feel we really didn't start trying until MC and both of us really admitting there was a problem in our R. I think he attributes a lot of the increased positivity in our R to the fact that he had this other outlet with the AP (and has detached from the MR), though he does see the changes that I've made and acknowledges them. Whereas I feel like of course our MR (and restarting our sexual relationship) is impossible when he’s emotionally focused elsewhere.
Particularly since BD2, we've been spending a lot more time together talking and connecting rather than just watching TV like we used to. He moved into the spare room (though the kids haven't picked up on this yet) after BD1 for a few weeks then just came back without any real discussion except asking me if that was OK… then he moved back to the spare room after BD 2 and hasn't come back yet (says he isn't ready to "fake it"). We did have about a week of extended R talks after BD2 though I've really tried to stop doing it (have slipped a bit— part of his issue with our relationship had been “we can’t communicate” which I think actually translates for him into “R talks” since we do communicate pretty well, especially after I’ve been working on validating, listening, empathizing and not just reacting). He still actively feels a connection ("in love") with AP but has agreed not to contact her and to let me know if she contacts him before responding. In our last R talk about a week and a half ago, we agreed to take the pressure off by just spending time together and working on our friendship. He knows I want to figure out how to reconcile and build a new R; he says he’s truly 50/50 and just doesn’t know if a new MR is possible or if he even wants it. He is a great dad and really loves our kids— but says if it wasn’t for them he would have been long gone. He really sees me just as a good friend/partner but not in a romantic or sexual light. He has finally admitted that he hasn’t fully forgiven me for the sexless R— he feels like he could if we were back together sexually or if we were over, but in this middle ground he is still feeling pretty aggravated that he tried to tell me this was a big deal for all these years and then all of a sudden NOW I want to work on it and agree that sex is important (I’d previously felt like it was no big deal, most of my friends weren’t having a lot of sex with their husbands, I talked to my doctor who basically said it is really common and not to worry about it). He also says he doesn’t know how he would be able to process the guilt of the EA if we stayed together and if I would truly be able to forgive him.
So this is where I am. I have recently re-looked at the mini goals I made when I first read DB and almost all of them have been checked off, which is great. He left for a business trip last week and the night before he left we hung out and talked forever (not R talk), he made eye contact with me over our kids’ heads and smiled and I swear there was a spark; he touched my waist before we went to bed; he brought me to another room to show me pictures of myself from a few years ago to show me how good I look now (I’ve lost about 10 lbs and been working out again— still have another 5-10 lbs to go to perfect, but feeling really good).
However, right now I’m really freaking out because his trip took him now to the city where the AP lives, and I’m making myself crazy that he has contacted her. I know this is his path that he needs to go through even if he did contact her, but I need help to resist calling or texting him unless I have a real reason to do so. I am scared that all the progress we’ve made will vanish if he sees her or even is just thinking about her, which of course he is… and I think he’s also so stubborn and has convinced himself that the only way he could have any feelings for another person is that the MR was completely dead without any possibility for revival (I think partially because the guilt would be so much greater if he believed we still have a chance). He has said he feels a lot of guilt for hurting me but does not regret starting the EA with the AP since the intimate bond between us was gone.
Anyway, sorry for the length of this post! I would love advice, thoughts, any tips for how to stay the course, stay patient, etc.? I have been spending more time out with friends and at yoga trying to GAL, but generally I want to be with my kids when I’m not at work, and I also decided not to tell any of my/our friends at this point but feel duplicitous when we hang out because there is this huge thing I’m dealing with but not telling them about, which makes it not as fun to hang out with my friends as it was before. I am not sleeping well and having a terrible time focusing at work.
M (44) H (40)
M: 12 T: 16
D7 and D9
DB1 ILYB: April 2019
DB2 Discovered EA: August 2019
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Thanks so much... really spinning and reading through these forums has been helpful!
Im sorry you are here. I know that feeling of anxiety well. My exww cheated on me with her boss on out of state trips. My exww didnt care about hurting me. She had zero remorse.
Read everything Cadet posted. Several times. Focus on yourself. It doesnt matter what your H is doing. He may be with the AP. And there is a huge chance its not just an EA if he is traveling to see her. You must accept that.
Take a step back and breath. You cannot control him. Let him go. Leave him be. It hurts and its hard, but once you focus on yourself and accept that you do not control anything but yourself. you will feel better. That feeling of abandonment and betrayal will diminish. You will feel better I promise. But you have to take action on changing yourself.
Get to a point of self love and self care where you know you will be happy no matter what. In doing so he may feel the loss of you and may turn around and come back. But thats not your goal. Your goal is to be a woman only a fool would leave. You may even get to a point where you are done and dont want him back.
Thats the point I got to. I realized that I deserve much better than what I was getting and that I will not be married to someone who can cheat and treat me so poorly. I got to a point where I no longer wantes to reconcile.
I am a much happier person and I am thriving. My divorce was final in May 2019. I was BDed August 2018, confirmed PA October 2018. My situation progressed quickly compared to most.
You will be fine. You will live and love again. You will be a strong person that knows they deserve so much better. Keep pushing forward. One day at a time. Keep posting here.
Thank you...
Im sorry you are here. I know that feeling of anxiety well.
Just reading that brought tears to my eyes-- knowing that there are other people who have gone through this and understand.
The work trip was legit and only one and a half days in her city... But I do think that there is a good likelihood he had dinner with her last night. He had unfollowed her on Instagram (which he is barely on) and then refollowed her this weekend, checked multiple times, and then stopped (I know this stalking behavior is not healthy)-- but it seems unlikely to me that if he was tempted to look at her Instagram feed before he got to the city where she lives, that he wouldn't be tempted there (and he hasn't been on there since). He told me he went out to dinner with a mutual friend who he ran into on the train, but my spider sense is definitely twanging on this. (I did chat with the mutual friend who was like yes!! So good to see him!! But I didn't ask if they just hung out on the train or if they had dinner together... not sure how to ask without being weird.)
My biggest fear is for my kids-- I would do anything for them and truly can't imagine putting them through a divorce.
OK. I just found out he didn't have dinner with the mutual friend he said he did last night... he totally lied. What should I do?
I WANT to call him right now and ask him why he lied... I don't think that is a great idea. He comes home tomorrow.
My read on the situation is that he got to New York at a hotel by himself, didn't really see friends the first day, and was feeling lonely and thinking of her. Re-followed her on Instagram (which sends a notice to her) Friday and then decided to get to DC early enough yesterday to meet for dinner last night. I don't think this was a planned part of the trip as earlier he'd said he was going to get to DC pretty late or maybe early this morning.
I'm also wondering if I should confront him when he gets home and set some limits-- the fact that he's lying in real time and broke a promise to me (based on the premise of future trust necessary no matter what happens, if we end up together or separate co-parents) to not contact her is crossing a major line for me.
He lied because right now he doesn't respect you or your marriage.
Yes that hurts badly and you will want to lash out. You have every right to be angry but all the anger in the world isn't going to help you or your relationship. Do you have a trusted friend to call or go see to talk/yell/scream with? I don't think any communication with H will be helpful for you right now.
Rooskers, I know you're right... there is a friend I had earlier decided I could talk to about it. I'll give her a call. I was trying not to get friends involved unless absolutely necessary. I just don't understand how someone who has been such a stand-up guy his whole life (and always refused to even tell white lies) has now turned into a liar and a cheat.
BREATHE!!!! Step back and calm yourself down. Doing and saying things when you are angry will not help any situation and you could very well say things that you can't take back later. The more you try to control what he does, the more he's going to lie and keep things from you, and, yes, do exactly what you don't want him to do.
You are angry, but you can't control him. He's a grown man and will do what he needs to do to figure things out. The only person you can control is yourself and your actions.
I would find something to do, i.e., yell, beat the stuffing's out of a pillow, take a long walk or call a very close friend up and go out to dinner. The less you say right now, the better. You do not want to come off sounding like a shrew or his mother...you want him to look at you as his friend and spouse. Going off on him will only make him more apt to look at the ow in a good light...that is not what you want.
The more you demand, the more he will pull away. If you settle down, listen and you will find the answers you need...but coming off as a bulldozer will not get you what you want. It takes many many months to get to detachment, but you need to focus on you and keep your expectations of what you think he should be doing at zero. You didn't break him, therefore you can't fix him. Work on yourself and if you have things about yourself that you don't like, now is the time to focus on them and make some changes...but those changes are for you, not to win him over.
job, thank you... you are completely right. I need to get my DB and Healing From Infidelity books back out and re-read. Question-- I think there is a decent chance he'll tell me about seeing her when he gets home. How should I respond? Just validate and listen, try to understand why?
I would listen to see what he has to say about his trip. I would not bring up the ow at all. I doubt that he'll say anything about her, but I certainly would not ask him about it. The less you show interest in this woman, the better. Try to remember that you are the prize and she's just a band aid to his pain at the moment. When he sees that you are gong on about your life, living it to the fullest and actually enjoying doing things, he may very well turn his eye back on to you and be curious about what you are doing. You want to look more appealing to him that the ow.
Keep those expectations at zero and do not assume what he is doing or thinking. Assuming tends to get us into trouble because we aren't mind readers and don't have a clue what he is thinking.
The bottom line here is if you want to try to save your marriage, then you need to redirect that anger on to some project that you hate to do and keep the focus on you. When you feel that anger rising, go find something to do and try not to direct it on to him.
You can do this...it takes practice, but you can do this.
Job, thanks so much. That is exactly what I need... especially the assuming part. I think I keep attributing reasons behind his behavior and expecting XYZ is coming next... which is why this was especially hard since things had been going so well. He went from flinching at my touch several months ago (so I stopped) to initiating physical contact, initiating quality time together, calls just to chat and joke around, talking about vacation plans, etc. Been trying to work on our friendship and trust (explicitly) so this just feels like a huge step backwards.
Wow-- he just called to check in and chat and I was totally friendly, joked around and made him laugh, he told me what he'd been working on all day, etc. I did ask him what he was doing next ("finding some dinner") and I asked him if he'd gotten in touch with two good friends who we rarely see who live in that city-- he was like no! I haven't reached out, I didn't get my act together enough to find time to let people know I'd be in town. I was like really? That is too bad.. I was wondering why you spent 6 hours (train plus dinner) with (mutual friend) last night instead of calling our other (closer) friends... what DID you talk to (mutual friend) about for six hours anyway? He paused, sighed, and then said "ugh, she's so annoying." And then went on to say maybe he'd get in touch with our other friends and to call him later when I picked up the kids to talk, he's looking forward to updating me on one of his meetings, etc.
I'm proud of myself for controlling my response. I also kind of hate that I feel so much better now after talking with him even though he is lying.
Hi May,
I WANT to call him right now and ask him why he lied... I don't think that is a great idea. He comes home tomorrow.
Argh! That part of you that wants to call him a pile of smelly shoe leather, maybe is better to express here.
I'm also wondering if I should confront him when he gets home and set some limits
What might those limits look like? There's a GREAT post on here called the Boundaries Cheat Sheet that helps guide setting good BOUNDARIES (limits to protect you) vs. poor ULTIMATUMs (limits to control others).
What might those limits look like? There's a GREAT post on here called the Boundaries Cheat Sheet that helps guide setting good BOUNDARIES (limits to protect you) vs. poor ULTIMATUMs (limits to control others).
CWarrior, this is really helpful-- thanks so much. I was imagining that the boundaries I had set was the "no contact' which he'd agreed to, though there was no ultimatum or establishment of what would happen if he did. I asked for it out of respect for me and to work on the trust between us, which we need as co-parents no matter what happens, and he had agreed. Knowing I can't control his behavior and only my own reaction/response, I am feeling like this was a setback-- frustrating especially because we had become so much closer in the last couple of weeks-- but trying to play the long game and setting conditions that he can't meet now just isn't productive. What I'm struggling with is worried about my own self-respect since I DID ask him for NC and he'd agreed but has now violated that.
Another question-- does anyone have experience with a WS who has cultivated a total fantasy D situation? In his head, we can be divorced but still have dinner together as a family multiple times a week, vacation together, he'll still mow the lawn and handle the stuff around the house he used to. I try not to talk about it anymore as one of my 180s because early on I painted a really bleak (but probably more realistic) picture of D and he was incredibly resistant.
My EXWW literally wanted a D, but us still live together like BFFs so that it wouldnt impact the kids. She literally came to my room, said "sorry" coughed up come fake tears and said "you dont have to move out".
They are delusional. I literally told her that I am not her friend and that since she chose her boss and to cheat one me, and to mistreat me and divorce, that I would not be her friend. I told her that I was her husband, not a friend. I told her that it was all or nothing.
It royally p!ssed her off because it burst her fantasy bubble. She just got angry and mistreated me more. But I am glad I said it.
My EXWW literally wanted a D, but us still live together like BFFs so that it wouldnt impact the kids.
SoTorn, glad you burst her fantasy bubble... it blows my mind that they think that would be possible for the long term. One of my problems is that we have friends who divorced 5 years ago and up until the last six months or so had literally done exactly what my husband is fantasizing about... they lived separately but spent every holiday together including traveling to his parents house for a week, ate dinner as a family several times a week, etc etc. I think the main reason it worked is because he didn't date and while she did a bit it was never serious. Now, he has a new GF who is putting a stop to all of it, so at least WH is seeing that can't last when a new person comes into the picture. We have another good couple friend who last year the wife said wanted a divorce, the husband said basically "OK" and within six months they were D, still friends, seeing other people seriously, and they eat dinner together several times a week. My husband keeps saying "they are so much happier now."
So I managed to not say anything about my husband seeing the OW on his business trip-- thanks 100% to you guys. (I am so, so grateful to all of you-- those who talked me down from calling him and those who are sharing their stories that have been so helpful to read. What an amazing, generous group of people.)
He came back Wednesday evening, and has been very friendly, fun, nice, etc. I've been practicing letting go of worrying about all of this and focusing on myself. And... he moved back into the bedroom (has been sleeping in the guest room for the past month, since BD2 when he told me about the EA). The first night he mumbled something about being too tired to deal with the guest room (futon there isn't as comfortable as our bed) and I said nothing. Last night he just got in bed and didn't say a word, neither did I. We chatted normally for awhile then both when to sleep. Then in the middle of the night he woke me up, hugged me, we cuddled for a bit, then had sex for the first time in six months (since before BD1, ILYB). !!!! After we chatted for awhile then went to sleep. No R discussion. This morning all fine/positive/normal. Previously, we had a SSM (I was the lower desire spouse) and that was/is a major reason for our problems. He has said as recently as a few weeks ago that he was not sexually attracted to me and the one thing he cannot envision in our future R is sex. Sooo....
I'm trying not to make this into all that big of a deal. I feel like moving back into the bedroom is a positive sign, but it was also a relatively easy time to do it (just back from a trip) with less significance attached to it than if he'd just switched rooms one night. I also don't want to attach too much to the sex. Like you guys have been saying-- zero expectations and assumptions. My plan is to take it all in stride, not say anything about it unless he brings it up, and then listen/validate if he does. He hasn't said a word about seeing OW, but we also haven't been in a situation where he might have brought it up. Thoughts/comments/suggestions welcome... I'm kind of thrown for a loop. I'm not shocked he moved back into the MB-- I had thought (before his trip) that there was a 50/50 chance he'd do it when he returned, since things had been so positive and it was a natural time to do it without seeming like a big deal-- but the sex part did really surprise me. I was thinking that there was zero chance that we'd have sex again without him saying explicitly he was ready to work on our MR and to try to rediscover the passionate side of our R.
Trying to stick with zero expectations and assumptions but man, it is hard! What keeps running through my mind is the fact that he told me he could NEVER imagine having sex with me again (at one point right after BD1 even the thought of it seemed to gross him out), was not sexually attracted to me, etc. That was also a time when he'd flinch away from even incidental physical contact. Now he's regularly initiating physical touch several times a day (his love language) and then I'm just so weirded out that after all this (and definitely seeing the OW last week on his business trip) he's now moved back into the bedroom, plus the sex for the first time in six months. I want to not think about it and just let it be... but would be really interested in other people's perspectives on all of this.
Sounds like cake-eating to me. He's having a fling and enjoying no-strings-attached family life with you when it suits him. Unfortunately walkaway husbands in particular have a habit of doing this. To him it probably means nothing other than some temporary sexual gratification. Michele's official take on this is it is OK to have sex as long as it doesn't affect you emotionally and you have no expectations about it. Realistically I'm not sure any LBS can really do that though. Also there's the concern about getting an STD from your own husband, that may sound crazy but it has happened many times.
I think he said that about never imagining sex again to see your reaction. It seems like you didn't make a big deal out of it with him, which made him wonder if you're okay with that or if you're not attracted to him anymore. He came back into the room to see if you'll be all over him again, which some men can feel is overwhelming, or if you keep acting normal. I think you're doing the right thing by keeping yourself together and not making it a bigger deal in front of him.
It's hard not to have expectations and not to want more intimacy and sex, but try to restrain yourself, that's what I've been doing. Let him initiate and keep focusing on yourself. It's hard, but honestly, you're his wife, he is yours, not hers. Don't think about you losing him and need to keep him, think of it as him getting you back, after all, he is the one that wanted out, if he wants to stay he needs to work for it.
Good luck!
Sounds like cake-eating to me. He's having a fling and enjoying no-strings-attached family life with you when it suits him.
AnotherStander, I'm curious to know more about the appropriate response to cake-eating... it seems like something LBSs shouldn't put up with, but I didn't really pick that up in DR or Healing From Infidelity.... did I miss it? Or is it more something dealt with on the boards?
I think you're doing the right thing by keeping yourself together and not making it a bigger deal in front of him....Let him initiate and keep focusing on yourself. It's hard, but honestly, you're his wife, he is yours, not hers. Don't think about you losing him and need to keep him, think of it as him getting you back, after all, he is the one that wanted out, if he wants to stay he needs to work for it.
Uptown, thanks so much for this-- really helpful-- totally gives me what I need to keep moving forward with emotional neutrality. This is great.
May, a tough call to have sex or not. In my situation, I'm glad I did, even if the sex felt strange and left me with mixed feelings. It's bonding, if done right leaves neither of you desperate to get those needs met elsewhere, and probably helped us on the road to reconciliation. In my case it was cake-eating (she wanted sex and fun without the everyday), but I had no concerns about a physical affair.
May, a tough call to have sex or not. In my situation, I'm glad I did, even if the sex felt strange and left me with mixed feelings. It's bonding, if done right leaves neither of you desperate to get those needs met elsewhere, and probably helped us on the road to reconciliation.
Thanks, CWarrior... that is really helpful. how is it all feeling now?
We're in this space where the last time we had an R talk (2-3 weeks ago) he just wasn't sure if he could/wanted to reconcile because he didn't think a passionate/sexual relationship was possible between us again, plus he wasn't sure he could deal with the guilt of the EA. We agreed to take it slow and just focus on our friendship, which has been going great, and if I didn't know that he had just seen her last week I would be feeling really good about what happened and our progress. In our case, he's 100 percent in on the everyday and both the day-to-day relationship between the two of us and his relationship with the kids is tremendously improved from where it was six months ago at BD1, he's been an incredible dad and doing more around the house than I am now. The same situations that would have set off a major argument are handled fine now, we are talking about all kinds of things, and having fun together again. The gap is in the passionate/sexual connection, especially/probably in comparison for the limerence he feels for the OW in the EA. Which is maybe why the sex thing has thrown me for such a loop. I truly didn't think it was going to happen without a lot of time/talking/therapy, based on what he's been saying.
Anyway, I am trying as hard as I can not to read too much into any of this, both worrying about him seeing her for dinner last week and coming home to move straight back into the bedroom.
It's so hard to keep emotional neutrality. Are you finding other ways to vent? I try to go on long walks with the dog and take baths. I agree with CWarrior in that sex helps with bonding. Make sure sex isn't all about him, though. Try to make foreplay longer and make sure you're enjoying it too, otherwise you will feel like he's just using you.
Keep it up, May!
Thanks, CWarrior... that is really helpful. how is it all feeling now?
It felt great again after 2-3x, and especially now since reconciling. At the time it felt more like kinky sex than making love, which makes sense considering she was angry and didn't trust me or consider me a friend.
Thanks, CWarrior and uptown. I am doing a lot of yoga, exercising and self-care, which definitely helps.
Also, it hasn't happened again... I am wondering if I should initiate, which would be a pretty significant 180 for me. The reason I haven't is that the last time we TALKED about it, he said he wasn't interested, etc etc., and we had agreed to work on our friendship before anything else. When it happened, it was in the middle of the night and he initiated, though we both verbally consented. On the one hand, initiating sex isn't exactly detaching, and I also want to be respectful of what he said he wanted/didn't want the last time we had an R talk. On the other hand, it would be a major 180 for me and address one of his biggest issues in our MR (not enough sex and especially the fact that I never initiated), and like you both say, can help with bonding.
Hello Mrs May,
sorry you're here... I will say from my own experience that men seem to pursue affairs for different reasons than women. You'll want to read up on attraction and learn to be attractive, mysterious, and strong. I'd suggest not lingering in his presence when he is home.
he just wasn't sure if he could/wanted to reconcile because he didn't think a passionate/sexual relationship was possible between us again, plus he wasn't sure he could deal with the guilt of the EA.
One of the tougher lessons to learn is to not believe anything he says. I doubt what he said is true.
In our case, he's 100 percent in on the everyday and both the day-to-day relationship between the two of us
This seems very optimistic considering his actions with OW.
Also, it hasn't happened again... I am wondering if I should initiate, which would be a pretty significant 180 for me. The reason I haven't is that the last time we TALKED about it, he said he wasn't interested, etc etc.,
Personally, I think that's a clever plan, since it's a 180 and you say he initiated once in the middle of the night. I've rekindled relationships in the middle of the night I wouldn't have at other times. Walls are down.
I'd love to see more success stories here. It's not a smooth sea, but you seem in range.
In our case, he's 100 percent in on the everyday and both the day-to-day relationship between the two of us
This seems very optimistic considering his actions with OW.
Hi Ovrrnbw, thanks for this... I think you're right, 100 percent is overstating it. I mean, though, that we're doing much better between the two of us and he went from being not super helpful at home to constantly performing acts of service-- now he does all the grocery shopping and at least half of the cooking. This happened after we read the five love languages book when we were in MC (acts of service is my primary love language; his is physical touch).
He seems to think that the R between the two of us is better in the day-to-day because he had this emotional outlet with the OW. I personally don't buy that, but I do think that the OW/EA is keeping him from focusing on our R. I do think I need to keep getting out of the house and focus on being more mysterious (that is hard for me). Strength is my motto these days.
Personally, I think that's a clever plan, since it's a 180 and you say he initiated once in the middle of the night. I've rekindled relationships in the middle of the night I wouldn't have at other times. Walls are down.
I'd love to see more success stories here. It's not a smooth sea, but you seem in range.
CWarrior, trying not to get my hopes up... but really nice to hear you say that (especially because of where you are!). I'll see about initiating... also don't want to show any pursuing behaviors... maybe another middle of the night one?
Update/journaling... couple nights ago did a few very subtle feelers on initiating sex with no response and so backed off completely. Things continue to be about the same-- we're getting along well, talking about real stuff (not just kid logistics), he's sent a few texts/called just to check in or tell me something interesting. However, I sense that he's a little down, not sure if it is because he's thinking about/missing OW or work/other stuff. I've been working on getting out of the house more, being less transparent, focusing on self-care, etc. I don't feel that emotional connection that had started to come back before he went on his business trip (excepting the middle of the night sex).
One question-- tomorrow night we have child care and were planning on going out-- in our last R talk three weeks ago we agreed to focus on our friendship, including going out on 'dates' just the two of us. We haven't talked about what we're going to do and I've purposely not offered options or ideas, just waiting on him-- both because that is usually what I do and also because I don't want to put any pressure on him or act like I'm pursuing him and putting a lot of emphasis on this one night. Now I'm wondering if making him be the one to do the lift of suggesting/planning is too much and I should just go ahead and make reservations somewhere fun-- something *I* want to do and he's invited. Thoughts?
Journaling... I decided to plan nothing about the night out Saturday. I went to yoga in the afternoon while he watched the football game and the kids, said as I was going out I'd be home 15 minutes or so before we were taking the kids to the sitter. He was like oh, that's tonight? I said yes, figure out what you want to do and left. (Usually I'm the one that plans everything-- I normally will think of a few options and let him choose between them.) When I came home he was really weird-- first he kind of pretended he hadn't thought of anything ("so, what do you want to do?") but then it turned out he'd researched a bunch of different options for things other than just going out to dinner, since we're both doing the Whole 30 and dinners out aren't quite as much fun if we can't eat/drink whatever we want. So I chose (a movie plus a quick dinner beforehand), total 180 on both our parts, and it was fun.
This morning did another big 180-- he said he's planning a business trip to the city where the AP lives. I of course was flooded with anxiety and anger, especially because he wants to extend the trip over a weekend and would miss a number of things with the kids in order to see a friend get a big national award the following week. Thanks to you guys (job, sotorn especially-- THANK YOU) I just kept the mantra in my head of "he's a grown man, I can't control him" and said "ok." Asked some questions about what the various plans were, was noncommittal. Then later on in the morning he started thinking out loud about the pros and cons of staying for the friend's award, leaning more on the cons. I didn't say anything. (Although, would it have been better for me to validate? "Yes, that's a difficult decision?")
In the past (before BD) I was really aggravated about how much travel he took and what the effect was on me for childcare/work, and him saying he was going to be away over the weekend, especially missing a number of kid-related events, would have had me blowing up at him and we'd get in a major fight (he thinks/thought I don't respect his work because I'm so unsupportive of the travel which is a significant portion of his job, and the trade off for working at home and normally being able to handle more of the kid pickups/ sick days etc). So, we'll see what he ends up doing. If he does stay for the award, he will definitely see the AP since she's friends with the guy who is getting the award. I just can't worry about it and need to let it go... right? (easier said than done!)
Caught up on your sitch too . So many similar aspects . Couple things just from my point of view . Ignore he brought up the trip . Wish him well . What seems to have positive outcomes with me is when H takes time away I GAL harder and I tell him nothing about it . Just give the mysterious i have plans . Hire a sitter and go GAL or take the kids and do something super fun . When he checks in be pleasant but get off phone first and say your busy . Months later he still doesn’t know half of my GAL activities but he throws some hate out about it once in awhile . Oh I didn’t invite you to this because you said you had plans is just an example or I didn’t know what you were doing . I ignore every bait attempt . I don’t do GAL to make him angry or get a reaction but it is one of the things I know he notices very clearly . Almost overwhelms me with temp checks those few days .I’m just a bit of a mystery. If he tries to have me on phone late and is not home I just say it’s late and I have a busy day planned for tomorrow. Have a great night . Sometimes my gal is sitting in my pajamas enjoying a ton of movies in the quiet . Sometimes I go shopping all day or grab dinner with friends . But I give limited info on it .
Sex ... this is a hard one . We have very different sitches with this . We have always had a strong sex life . I chose to continue with it . Could he have had an A or is I don’t know but right now there is no sign of it . We bond with sex . I have put out there a few times or initiated always met with resistance so I stopped doing what didn’t work .All men have some body part they love about a women or you . My H is shoulders . So I tend to once in awhile just accent them . A bit dressed up but not over the top . Smile and go about my business . Distance yourself from him . Be busy but happy . Let him pursue you . I was always a bit of a push away attention from him . 180 can be to be more receptive then initiate. I don’t care if I’m folding laundry I’m doing it with a smile . The more you smile the more it becomes who you are .
Let the EA burn out . Let them feel the pressure of that . GAL more .
The one thing I saw was you said you used the kids as weapons . Protect them yes by all means . I tried the opposite I gave him unlimited access to them . Not me . Access to kids .
I asked something the other day to H I saw on here under validating when he started a R talk . How can I make this easier for you ? H response be so means I’ll run so hard I won’t ever wanna come back and won’t be confused . I smiled , giggled and said well that’s not happening so good luck .
You are doing great . Hang in there . Marathon not a sprint . Be the lighthouse.
Caligirl, thank you so much!
I definitely need to work on being more mysterious about GALing but it is kind of hard when we live together and sleep in the same bed. Our practice has always been to be super open with each other about what we are doing when we aren't together so it feels really weird to just say I have plans. For instance I'm going out for drinks tonight and so just said yesterday hey I'm going out for drinks tomorrow so you have the girls-- he tried to ask me with who but it kind of got lost and I didn't answer (trying to be mysterious) -- then this morning I reminded him to pick up the kids and he asked who I was having drinks with? So I told him. (Business-related drinks, with a man.) Don't you think it would be too weird to say like none of your business? or no-one you know? (he does know this guy anyway... and it probably isn't a bad thing all in all for him to know. Otherwise I'm sure he'd assume I was with a female friend.) So far, he doesn't seem to care that much about my GALing. Maybe I'm doing it wrong... but he is also someone who has always been a big proponent of me spending more time doing things for myself.
When he checks in be pleasant but get off phone first and say your busy.
This is totally something I could do and need to be better at doing... I went out with a friend the other night and he texted me asking where we ended up eating and I replied... better to just ignore, right? Get off the phone first, don't respond or answer right away, let there be a delay in responding to texts.
The one thing I saw was you said you used the kids as weapons . Protect them yes by all means . I tried the opposite I gave him unlimited access to them . Not me . Access to kids .
By using the kids as a weapon I didn't restrict access to them, I just threw a bunch of statistics at him about how bad it would be for the kids for us to get divorced and tried to use them as a reason for him to want to stay and work on our MR. But this clearly all has to do with what he's feeling not what logic would dictate, so I've stopped talking about it. He is a great dad and spends a ton of time with them, either on his own when I'm out GALing or all together as a family.
I'm so impressed with how you are a total natural at this! Total inspiration
And yes it is a marathon! Impatience is my biggest problem.
May & Cali,
You both have so much strength! I have been following both your stories and I, too, have many similarities to your situations. Hang in there and keep doing GAL and patience! Just wanted to throw yall some words of encouragement.
My take on when asked what I’m doing . Short and sweet . I have plans for drinks . If he asked with who . Say - my friends . Make yourself busy doing something else in another room happily .I would think if he keeps asking at that point maybe say with who . May be a question for vets . If you are out and he asked what you ate no I wouldn’t respond to it right away . Few hours later maybe a one word if that . My H too is a huge pusher with me spending time out of house . He always had trust in me and knew exactly what I was doing . Definitely now doesn’t like the vagueness but his choice .
Amazing both our H ‘s remain good dads to our children . We definitely have a plus with that . In the beginning I did say how divorce is not good for them too but now he’s around so much I barely even say it . More just a random S asked if you were coming for dinner . I said you had plans with so and so or work .
Does he tell you he’s going to see AP ? I only ask because you said you both agreed to be honest do you feel like you should tell him where you are going or with who .
Kristin-- thanks so much and you too! It is so nice knowing that there are other people out there who you can talk to and who are going through such similar things.
Cali-- It's weird. The past two weeks (since he got back from his last business trip) if you were a fly on the wall you would think we were totally fine. For the last few months we have actually been getting along waaaaay better than we had been over the last couple of years-- seems like we have dealt with all the minor stuff, all the resentment/anger/picking fights seems to be gone. He is way more present with me and the kids than he was a year ago and WAY more helpful around the house. Except for the one night, we haven't been intimate physically or emotionally, no R talks-- basically feel like good friends, which is what we said we wanted to work on.
Like today we met for lunch, then tonight he took the kids to soccer, coached our older daughter's team and took the younger one along so that I could go to yoga. We got home around the same time, cooked dinner together, ate as a family, cleaned up, hung out and talked a little about the timeline for his next trip, then he just went to bed.
In terms of honesty, he had told me he was NC with the AP after the BD seven weeks ago, though it wasn't because he had chosen to make it work with me (last we spoke, he doesn't know if he wants this), but because they mutually decided they couldn't pursue an R because of the circumstances. She also lives 5,000 miles away, so it isn't really like there is much real opportunity there.
According to him, they'd been NC for about 3 weeks when he told me about her. I know he contacted her once to tell her he'd told me about her, and once to tell her that he'd agreed to NC. I do actually think that was true because he's barely on Instagram and then I noticed when he went on his trip he was on IG a ton the second night he was there. He had re-followed her (had unfollowed her after BD) and checked it like every couple of hours including in the middle of the night-- I don't see why he would have done this if he'd been in contact with her all along. (Also he is kind of an idiot since she had to approve his re-follow request, so it was basically the same as texting her.) Then his IG activity slowed back down to normal and I know (well, I'm assuming, but he told me he had dinner with a mutual friend which was a lie) he had dinner with her. (For the record, I'm not proud of the stalking that resulted in me finding this all out.)
He came home two weeks ago and moved back into our bedroom (from the spare room) and hasn't said a word. So, I don't know if he's still talking to her or not. I actually really thought he would tell me just to be transparent, but he hasn't. So the honesty is not there, and he very well could be texting with her all day long.
Even so, it would still be really strange for me to refuse to tell him who I was out with. I can try to be vague but I'm terrible at being mysterious and he just asks anyway. I don't think it is in my nature. I can definitely work harder at not answering texts/phone calls right away, though.
Seems like these Hs are going through an incredible amount of turmoil, uncertainty, fear, etc... all the same emotions we're facing too but the added pressure/guilt of they're the ones doing it... and at least for my H also feeling like R with me means resigning himself to a passionless marriage since he says he can't see us back together physically.
Last night I made the mistake of opening the door for an R talk, ended up talking for 3 hours. H is now thinking he wants to move out. He is still in love with the AP and told me he'd spoken with her a couple of times and texted with her a few times, to see how she's doing. He said something to the effect of "she's not very happy about all this" but didn't elaborate and I didn't ask. he didn't say anything about seeing her a couple of weeks ago.
He said he didn't see being able to repair the R between us, he can't see how I could forgive him and trust him again, or that he could forgive himself. He thinks maybe he's just a bad person. He cried a little. He actively is in love with AP and can't believe it would be possible to have romantic/passionate feelings for me again. He doesn't want to let go of how he feels about her. His next trip to her city is in 2 weeks. He said he didn't know that it would be possible to let go of the feelings he had for her-- we talked a little about the fact that he's never had a serious GF before, never said "ILY" to anyone before me, and so he has no context or experience in getting over someone. He said "I've never broken up with someone before" which sticks with me a little-- wondering what that means (was definitely not in reference to what is going on between the two of us but more like what is going on between him and the AP.
I did a lot of validating and listening (good). I also argued for working on our R as being the best thing for all of us with the best possible outcome, that we could always go down the road of D once we knew we tried everything, and brought up the kids (bad). He said everything I am saying is logical and basically all the same arguments in his own head for staying but emotionally he isn't there and his mental health is suffering. He does believe that if we both were to commit to rebuilding a new R and were 100% in, we might be able to do it, but he doesn't know how to get there or if he wants to.
He said the sex the other night "didn't do a lot for my cause" because he didn't feel any big emotional connection. (He lasted about a minute for context, not on purpose.) He did it because it felt natural and he wanted to see how he felt. I said OK, I understood how he felt, but that I wasn't expecting that it would magically fix things and he shouldn't either. He is really against doing anything that doesn't feel natural.
His vision of a D is now that I live here with the kids, he picks them up from school, stays through dinner, and then just goes to his own place. He would still come mow the lawn and do all the same stuff he does now, including paying half the mortgage. He imagines that it would be exactly the same as it is now, except he would go to his own place to sleep. The kids wouldn't see anything different between their parents (because we are already in a sexless M). I think he imagines that the Al move here and when I reacted to that (bad I know) he said he imagined that I would be FRIENDS with her. (Now from my perspective I think this is all still a crazy fantasy and would never work but if we are going to go down that road, me having the house and the kids full time and no financial consequence seems a lot better than what has been going on in my head, but I can't believe he would actually give that all up when it came down to it.)
He's refusing to cut off all contact with her and doesn't want drag it out with me/ "postpone the inevitable" because he's been trying for so long but also clearly because he knows she's not going to wait around forever. Every time we've talked it seems like either he's getting more infatuated with her as time goes on or he's letting me see more of it.
We ended up just going to bed last night in our MB (he said "I feel like I should sleep in the office" and I said "I don't think you have to" and he just got in bed and went to sleep. I tried but barely slept.
I know I shouldn't have opened the door for an R talk-- he clearly isn't ready. This morning he said he's worried that I'm idealizing him and he'll never be able to make me happy because maybe he's just a bad person. (This is someone whose identity is definitely tied up in his vision of himself as a good/moral/right person-- what his choices are doing to him are pretty significant and devastating, and I think he can't believe that our R is salvagable because it would make his behavior all the worse.)
So... I messed up, I heard things I didn't want to hear, feel that I pushed him a little further down the road since he said out loud he was thinking about moving out. What should I do now? This morning after talking about having done something that has caused him to have a moral injury, I validated. He said "we just need to take this one day at a time," that we don't need to make any big decisions right now (maybe backing off a bit from last night.) I think I need some advice on what to do next, and what I could have done differently/better last night.
We all have had those relationship talks and heard things that we didn't want to hear. So, pick yourself up, dust yourself off and look to tomorrow as a brand new day.
I would not have another relationship talk w/him at the moment. He's "thinking" about moving out and that doesn't necessarily mean that he will. It could be his way of telling you to back off. He's right, you need to take it one day at a time and you do not need to decide today or tomorrow what you want done in the way of a divorce.
Get back into Galing and continue to detach. Live your life to the fullest and just leave him be. If he moves out, it will be his decision and not one that you helped to make for him.
It's okay...we all have fallen into the trap of relationship talks.
Tomorrow is a new day and you will begin anew with detaching and doing for you.
I would not have another relationship talk w/him at the moment....Live your life to the fullest and just leave him be.
Job, thanks so much. I have a few logistical questions-- OK to have a talk about other things, work etc related? One reason why this happened is because I'm trying to avoid just sitting next to each other on the couch watching TV after the kids go to bed-- for the first few weeks post-BD we spent that time having good and deep conversations, most non-R related, with me practicing validation rather than giving advice or solving his problems, and it really did help us both to feel closer. (180 for both of us.) But should I just leave him completely alone -- he turns on the TV and I go read a book or do work?
If he does start an R talk, just say I'm not ready to have this discussion right now?
If he does start an R talk, just say I'm not ready to have this discussion right now?
Hi May! Your second question is easier. If they want to share, by all means encourage them, and validate.
Him: "I want to talk about our R"
You: "Okay, I'm listening."
Him: "What do you think about X?"
You: "Since you brought it up, I'm curious about your feelings."
Him: <blah> <blah> <blah>
You: "Wow, so you feel <blah> <blah> <blah"
Him: "Yes, so I think it's best to do Y. Don't you agree?
You: "I'd need to think about it."
But should I just leave him completely alone -- he turns on the TV and I go read a book or do work?
Your first question is harder. He's in an EA, is likely to try to further things when he visits her in two weeks, and has a fantasy that he can have his cake (family dinners with you and the kids) and eat it too (spend evenings with his lover). You're in a tough place just now--wishing you strength and luck.
If he does start an R talk, just say I'm not ready to have this discussion right now?
Hi May! Your second question is easier. If they want to share, by all means encourage them, and validate.
Him: "I want to talk about our R"
You: "Okay, I'm listening."
Him: "What do you think about X?"
You: "Since you brought it up, I'm curious about your feelings."
Him: <blah> <blah> <blah>
You: "Wow, so you feel <blah> <blah> <blah"
Him: "Yes, so I think it's best to do Y. Don't you agree?
You: "I'd need to think about it."
CW, this is gold... I need to memorize it and be ready. I think there is a chance he'll want to continue the convo tonight.
Your first question is harder. He's in an EA, is likely to try to further things when he visits her in two weeks, and has a fantasy that he can have his cake (family dinners with you and the kids) and eat it too (spend evenings with his lover). You're in a tough place just now--wishing you strength and luck.
I know-- I think we're both longing for some kind of clarity, like it would be easier if he just made up his mind one way or the other. I get the feeling that she might be giving him a little static. But, he was originally planning on going for a week and a half, including a weekend-- even up till yesterday was still verbally weighing the pros and cons-- and today just booked flights to only be away for 5 days, including staying here on Saturday night for an event we were both invited to for my work (and he wasn't all that stoked about attending, but knew it was important to me) and tickets he bought for a show later that night (which ironically is a program he was introduced to by the AP early on, they went to this same thing). I'm not trying to make any assumptions one way or the other, but he definitely had justification to go for a week and a half and skip these events here with me, and he chose not to.
In the meantime... I'll keep those responses at the ready should I need them, and focus on GAL, detaching (haha, not quite there yet), being pleasant and not giving him any excuses to make an easy decision.
May, R talks are pressure and WAS's hate pressure. His responses were very predictable. He's confused, he's not in love with you, he doesn't know what to do but he still wants out of the M. Blah blah blah. It's straight-up script. R talks are pointless because what he is telling you is just a reflection of how he feels at that moment in time. He will speak in absolutes ("there's no chance for us", "it's over for good") but his feelings can and will change. It may take a week or a month or a year or even longer. But he won't always feel the same as he thinks he does right now.
I did a lot of validating and listening (good). I also argued for working on our R as being the best thing for all of us with the best possible outcome
That's not validating or listening. That is the opposite. When you validate you take a neutral stance. You're not arguing for the M, you're not arguing against it. You're just letting him talk and offering supportive comments. "That must be difficult to go through". That said, be careful that you don't say or do anything that implies you SUPPORT him in this affair. You can validate, but you've also got to take a "tough love" approach with him. Don't make it a secret that you find his affair activities distasteful.
His vision of a D is now that I live here with the kids, he picks them up from school, stays through dinner, and then just goes to his own place.
Here is where he needs a "tough love" wakeup call. Your response should have been along the lines of "Once you are out of the house I want you to respect my privacy, I will not allow you to stay for dinner or drop by unannounced. If separation and divorce is what you want then I can't stop you, but I will not allow you to continue to use me as if we are married while you are engaging in an affair." WAS's have a fantasy about how great life will be after S and D. You need to put him on notice that A) you are not going to contribute to his fantasy and B) you fully intend to have your OWN SEPARATE LIFE from him after S and/ or D. This will have a big impact on him, right now he sees you as someone he can disrespect and use and string along. Once he realizes you may move on without him, he will see you as "higher value". He's got to learn he may lose you in this.
Now from my perspective I think this is all still a crazy fantasy and would never work but if we are going to go down that road, me having the house and the kids full time and no financial consequence seems a lot better than what has been going on in my head, but I can't believe he would actually give that all up when it came down to it.
You are right, it's a fantasy. It will never work that way, it's not sustainable for multiple reasons. Insist on a written agreement regarding support and child custody if you separate. Don't rely on his promises of support.
We ended up just going to bed last night in our MB (he said "I feel like I should sleep in the office" and I said "I don't think you have to" and he just got in bed and went to sleep. I tried but barely slept.
Next time he offers to sleep elsewhere then AGREE. Tell him you think it's a good idea to make that permanent since he is in an affair. Again, he's got to think he may lose you. You've got to bring the cake-eating to a stop.
Thanks AS, I needed this tough love
That said, be careful that you don't say or do anything that implies you SUPPORT him in this affair. You can validate, but you've also got to take a "tough love" approach with him. Don't make it a secret that you find his affair activities distasteful.
My stance on his EA to him has been that I understand how he got there but that he has to realize he didn't just "fall" into it by accident... he made a series of choices that led to the situation, and he could have made different choices at every step. I'm especially angry that he started this while in the middle of MC, which we ended up stopping a couple of months after he started the EA (I didn't know that at the time) because he felt like the MC was on "my side" and totally shut down in the sessions. He continued in IC with a different counselor (had started with the IC to work on some of his own stuff like anger management). He has said he is sorry he is in the EA and sorry he got to the place where he was open to it, but that he doesn't regret it.
Regarding continuing the EA-- this is the first R talk we've had where he's admitted to continued contact. The previous R talks (including the BD) he told me he wasn't in contact with her at all while he wasn't in a place to move their R forward-- haha sounds like she is trying to LRS him). I'd asked him after BD to promise not to contact her while we were still married out of respect for me and the future need for trust between us regardless of what happens (R or co-parenting) and he agreed 'for the time being' but refused to put a timeline on it. After he told me this last time that he has spoken to her a couple of times and texted a bit (but that she "isn't happy") I didn't say anything about respect and I didn't ask him to not talk to her-- I asked why he hadn't told me previously (he didn't know) and said that we'll never be able to work on how we might rebuild a new R if he's still in contact with her and has her on her mind. Was that OK? I didn't want to act like I was jealous of her (I'm not to be honest) and I didn't want to ask him again to do something that is too hard for him to stick to (NC). I mostly just pointed out that we aren't seeing if we could "fall back in love again" (something he had said) until the AP is completely out of the picture. Was that OK?
Next time he offers to sleep elsewhere then AGREE. Tell him you think it's a good idea to make that permanent since he is in an affair. Again, he's got to think he may lose you. You've got to bring the cake-eating to a stop.
So I did that the last time and it ended up being SO stressful for me that the kids were going to notice. It lasted 2-3 weeks and then he quietly moved back into the MR. I read someone on this forum saying they would rather have their kids see their parents going through some difficulties now than to be divorced-- feel that is good advice (thanks and sorry I can't remember who you are!) but I have a huge amount of anxiety about the kids... so that is why I didn't push him into sleeping in the office. The other thing is that I think the AP is pushing him for some action that demonstrates he's choosing her, and I didn't want to give him a reason from me (like agreeing that it would be for the best) to have one. He told me during our R talk (in the context of his continuing conversations with AP) that I had probably noticed he was "off" at lunch the day before (I hadn't) and he said he was depressed, I think about her.
So far his words have been exactly what you said, AP-- following the script, plus (this is probably script too) some "I'm not good enough/ you'll never be able to forgive me" stuff. However, some of his language about me and our R has improved-- he had previously been in negative sentiment override and I was the villain holding him back etc; now he is much kinder, can talk about fun and positive memories from our past, etc. He spent some time the other night elaborating about what it is he loves about me and how he's proud of me, etc-- he said (because I had withheld sex for so long) that he had just learned to love me another way (without passion).
But his actions seem to be more on my side. He's living at home, sleeping in the MB, cut his upcoming trip to her city in half AND reduced a day on the front end to ensure he could attend an event he knew was important to me (though when he told me why he moved his flight till the next day, it was because Saturday was going to be so busy with soccer/swim meets for the kids during the day, it would be too hard to leave that day. And as an afterthought, plus then we can go to those two things in the evening.)
I guess where I am right now is in this crazy awful limbo-- he isn't choosing her and he isn't choosing me-- and I've been feeling that if I can focus on the 180s/GALs/ detaching and avoid R talks, the EA may burn itself out since she seems to be looking for some action on his part towards S or D and he hasn't actually made that yet, with the exception of telling me that she exists. If I can keep my composure and patience through this (be the lighthouse) is there a good reason to kick him out of the MB or house?
No one is perfect. So you started an R talk . Lesson learned . It the big picture a small blip. Don’t believe any of what he says . And half of what he does . He’s talking about a fantasy of you and AP being friends . Do not allow that even into your head .
AP may be giving him some static . Stay on your course keep DBing the EA may very well burn out on its own . I would not make any decisions right now after a relationship talk with the MBR or house .
Thanks, Caligirl. No R talks since then, just regular positive interactions.... just need to stay the course (marathon, not a sprint). I know I'll be pretty stressed as it gets closer to the time he leaves on his business trip on Sunday, and stressed while he's gone-- hoping I can use this time to really focus on myself, GALing, and detaching... though easier said than done.
Going out tonight for drinks with friends!
Hope you are doing well ! Enjoy the GAL with your friends . Just checking in ... hoping your not stressing too much and keeping busy.
Hi Caligirl! Thanks for checking in. I'm doing okay-- we went out last night and had a good time, he leaves tonight for his trip. For whatever reason I'm doing better with all of this-- less anxious, it doesn't really bother me too much if I wonder if he's going to see her or not-- like whatever, he'll do what he wants to do, worrying about it isn't going to help anything and just makes me stressed out. Just trying to focus on the positive (he brought up the idea of the four of us traveling together for Christmas break for the first time, I acted interested but didn't jump at it too fast). I will also say that working out and being physically fit has had incredibly positive impact on my mindset-- can't recommend it highly enough!
Hope you're hanging in there too CG!
Hey May! Keep working on those positive vibes. I'm sure at some point, this trip will be stressful for you but come back to this and read it over and over.
-- less anxious, it doesn't really bother me too much if I wonder if he's going to see her or not-- like whatever, he'll do what he wants to do, worrying about it isn't going to help anything and just makes me stressed out.
Hope you're having a good week.
Thanks so much for checking in, Kristin!! That really helps... and in fact I (somehow, surprisingly) still feel pretty chill about him being gone and in her city. He's been in decent contact since he left, texting and called a couple of times-- including once when I was at work yesterday. I didn't answer (was in a meeting) but texted to see what was up and he said "just letting you know I arrived. Nothing else-- have a good day and tell the girls I love them." Which is unusual, since (a) he'd texted already a number of times since landing and getting to his hotel, so I did know he'd arrived and (b) unusual to call just to chat with me (not when he thought he might get to talk to the kids). I didn't call him back, though I did let the girls call him when I picked them up after school.
As I type this I know it sounds like I'm putting a lot of energy/emphasis into his behavior, BUT... it is nice but not like super important to me, and I'm not trying to analyze what it might or might not mean-- just noting that it happened and is a bit different than in the past. Maybe I'll feel differently if he goes dark, but generally I do feel like I'm starting to detach a bit. (Is this what it feels like? Or do I need a 2x4 to stop pretending I'm doing oh so well??
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Sounds like you are doing great. Keep detaching and putting your energy into you and the kids . Great you are less anxious not only for you but I’m sure your positive attitude will be noticed by H too .
I'm hanging in there... odds are that he saw her last night as I heard very little from him and significant delays in response to a couple of texts (total temp checking on my part, not proud of it, but not too egregious). However, I was re-reading my thread and remember how borderline out of control I felt the last time this was happening and while I'm still not completely detached by any means, I'm definitely in a much better place than I was then in terms of letting him do what he needs to do and focusing on my kids and myself.
Girls and I played hooky from swim team and watched a movie cuddled on the couch. I'm back down to my high school/college weight... haven't been at this weight since I got married. Good friend came over for dinner Monday night, seeing other friends tonight.
He called this morning to talk to the girls and just missed them (I'd already dropped them off), we chatted pleasantly for a couple of minutes.
So question... I've been thinking about a goal of strengthening my R with his mom. One of our issues had been that I would get annoyed at how long they would come to visit, etc etc (partially because I was always seeing it as a competition with my own parents-- if we spend x weeks with one set of grandparents it had to be equal on the other side) and he has always felt that I was cold to his mom. The last couple of times he's taken the kids to his parents I haven't come, mostly because I have limited vacation days compared to him, but I know it comes across to him like I don't care about them. I feel like strengthening my R with her will be an important and positive step no matter what happens going forward for the kids, though I also know that a part of my motivation is because I think she'll be a real advocate for our M if it gets to the point of S and he has to tell her what has been going on. He's actually been working on his own R with my mom which has been rocky in the past (texting her kids stuff and crossword puzzle stuff)-- and he is very close with his own mom, talking to her on the phone nearly every day. So-- is it a bad thing for me to have this as a goal and work on it, knowing that a part-- though not the majority-- of the reason is linked to him, not just for me and the kids? I know she loves me and would honestly be thrilled to have a closer R with me.
He just called to chat ("because he knew I'd be interested in hearing how his day went"-- it is like he needs to tell himself he needs an excuse to call me!), was nice. I didn't answer when he called but did call him back quickly. Turns out he went to a baseball game watch last night-- maybe not true but I didn't ask, he just told me all about it, lots of detail so pretty odd to make it all up. Not gonna lie, I do feel some relief, but still feeling able to be fine with whatever comes next, OR whatever has already happened.
Hey May. Good for you focusing on you and the kids and trying to make peace with whatever comes next and whatever is happening/happened. I think it would be good to build a better relationship with your MIL. Keep in mind, though, that your goal should be to build that R with nothing but a better connections for your kiddos and yourself. Subconsciously, I know you'll be thinking "I'm going to butter her up so that if H leaves and we S, she will set him straight!" Just be cautious that you are building that for you, your strength, and your kids. I made the mistake of leaning heavily on WWs family after BD (my fam is located a lot further away and they all knew what was happening). It caused them to really create a rift in my M and caused ww to grow closer to her AP.
Glad you and the H had a friendly chat last night and I hope he is feeling the distance (even if just for work).
I do not know now would be a good time to increase contact with his mom . It may come off as pursuit . He’s traveling possibly seeing AP I would say lay low with his family . No pressure . If you reconcile then I would say yes or even if you separate and keep it strictly for the kids benefit . Just a word of caution - I had a very positive relationship with H mother never a bad relationship. She even stated she would always back our marriage and not S. Well when H went there with his revision of history she went nuts on me . Telling him to get a D. I’m an awful person bla bla bla .Hasn’t spoken to me in months . Never asked how I was or checked up on me . Now the tables turned once again . He ll come back from a visit and say my mom says she misses you . I don’t respond . She is his mother and remember she always will be .
Good job noticing you are less anxious and not calling him frequently. We all temp check once in awhile no harm . You are getting way stronger .
Thanks, K and CG. If I'm being honest I don't have the right motivations to focus on my R with his mom. They live really far away anyway so not a lot of opportunity, though they're planning a trip to stay with us in January. I'll just think about it and take opportunities to be warm when I can.
Besides their trip in January, my whole family is coming for Thanksgiving, and we have other friends staying with us for in the beginning of November... plus wondering what we are going to be doing for Christmas break... I *am* stressed about how what is going on could be affected by all of this, especially the two family visits. My H doesn't get along all that well with my mom in the best of circumstances, and I worry that 10 days of close contact will be detrimental.
Anyway, guess I'll cross that bridge when I come to it, and decide whether or not I should talk to my mom about what is going on to see if she can try not to antagonize him. And keep focusing on my kids and myself in the meantime.
You guys are the best. Hugs!!
Happy Monday! Not much to update... he came home Friday, we had a great weekend, no R talks, just a lot of fun with the kids. I'm having some trouble at work and he's been really helpful thinking through what is going on and strategies for dealing. He's being warm, friendly, nice, funny. The guy I fell in love with, but better because he's also now an amazing dad to our two daughters. I'm trying to sit in the moment and not worry about what may or may not happen in the future, not worry about what he's thinking or whether or not the AP is still in the picture... just enjoying my kids and being nice/friendly/fun/happy back to him.
The only thing I noticed that happened was someone was snapping a family photo of us and he put his arm around me just for a second then lifted off his hand-- almost like he did it automatically then remembered. I'd put my arm on his back when he touched me, and I just left it there for the pic. Feels SO weird and stupid to be dissecting an arm around my shoulder in a photo like we're in high school and this isn't my partner of the last 16 years.
If I didn't know what I know about how he's feeling towards me and the existence of the EA, whether it is still active or not-- everything would seem perfect in our R, except that we aren't physically intimate. All the fighting, resentment, anger, etc has disappeared and he is a way better dad and partner around the house than he was before. In fact, prior to 6 months ago when I finally understood and realized how important sex and physical intimacy is in a healthy R-- and how important it is/was especially to him as physical touch is his primary love language-- I would be happy as a clam right now since I didn't want sex anyway.
May22
Sounds like you are doing great at DB . Keeping being the most attractive version of yourself . You can see his confusion with the photo his natural response is to touch you but then he pulls away . My H did same things . Just pay no attention and keep smiling . You are doing great not pressuring when he was away .
Thanks Caligirl! I just need to work on being more patient. Today he was talking about purchasing an investment property (together) and inside I'm screaming ARE YOU KIDDING?? How are you talking about this right now? But I just listened and smiled and asked questions. It isn't going anywhere anyway, no need to turn it into an R talk. He did put back on his wedding ring again.
My biggest issue I think with DBing is that I have unfortunately made it crystal clear in past R conversations that I am not going anywhere and that I am a 110% believer in marriage and a two-parent household for kids, and he knows me well enough to know I would do anything for my children. I have made myself into the ultimate plan B that he knows will be just waiting around for him to decide he wants to work on our R. There is no way he is going to see me as mysterious or that there is any risk of losing me no matter what I do, unless he decides to take another step (like separation) and I can believably recalibrate. Hoping the 180s, GAL and PMA will do enough and that things don't need to get worse before they can get better.
may, kids also deserve to grow up in a home where both parents are healthy and have a healthy MR. So holding on despite any poor behavior on his part is antithetical to wanting the best and doing anything for your children.
Yes a 2 parent household is ideal. But not a broken 2 parent household. That is setting your kids up for problems in their own relationships, marriages, and adult home lives.
Kids would rather be from a broken home than in a broken home.
Admittedly I am not caught up on your sitch but I wanted to provide that perspective. I guess the what I am trying to say is don't use a 2 parent home for you kids as an excuse to let him get away with anything he wants.
Hi Steve,
Admittedly I am not caught up on your sitch but I wanted to provide that perspective. I guess the what I am trying to say is don't use a 2 parent home for you kids as an excuse to let him get away with anything he wants.
Thanks so much... yes, I 100% agree. Where we are right now as of our last R talk a couple of weeks ago (which I should have avoided but oh well) is that he loves me but is not IN love with me; he's not sure he can ever have a passionate/intimate R with me again or that I could forgive him for his EA.
My stance has been that I want us to try to build a new R and reestablish that passionate connection-- we both deserve it-- and if we can't then let's reassess but not walk away until we both know we've tried everything. He doesn't think that intimacy can come back, so he feels his choice is between D and a friendly but passionless M. I guess what I meant by the statement about holding on is that his impression is that I'd stay around no matter what (even though I have said that I believe I deserve a H who is IN love with me) and so he is secure in the fact that I'm plan B, no matter how much I GAL and try to act mysterious. (I am SO not mysterious anyway.)
It has sounded like his AP (who lives 5,000 miles away) gave him an ultimatum 3 months ago or so (a few weeks before he told me about her) and he hasn't had a ton of contact with her since but when he has it sounds like she's giving him static about not moving out, or whatever. He has this fantasy D idea where we'd be best friends and do everything exactly like we do now but after the kids go to bed he would go to his own place presumably with the AP. And the AP and I would be friends.
However, right now for our kids our R has never been better. Sleeping in the same bed, no fighting, nice happy family. Just no sex and the fact that I know he is emotionally connected elsewhere and feels incredibly guilty about it-- and I'm obviously dealing with all of that too. How much the kids (7 & 9) are picking up on all of that? I don't know, but honestly I don't think very much if at all.
I wouldn’t worry too much about your crystal clear intentions . H said to me I know you aren’t going anywhere a few times . I will say once I started to GAL I don’t think he was worried I was out looking to date or find someone but the doubt of what if by chance someone came in and swept me off my feet .
I think you are doing really good with taking the pressure off him . The calmness and noticing the anger is gone is proof . The AP apply all the pressure . It will only make it weaker .
Thanks Caligirl-- that is really helpful. Nothing much to report... he brought up the investment property idea again, I sounded interested but didn't really say anything. Last night after I got home from a dinner we chatted in bed for over an hour about work stuff for both of us.
Two nights ago he tried to pick a fight with me by not being helpful in getting the kids to bed-- I asked him a couple times to turn off the TV and get the kids in bed, he said "OK!" and then did NOTHING. I felt like he was almost purposefully not moving to see what I'd do. Finally I went over, yelled at all three of them, he turned off the TV and the kids ran to bed. He helped put them down and then said "are you mad at me?" I said "no" because actually I honestly wasn't (weirdly--six months ago I would have been coldly furious for the rest of the night). He was like "do you just not get mad at me any more? Why?" I said (totally honestly) "I don't know. It's like I don't really expect much." (which maybe I shouldn't have said but was the truth.) And he was quiet for a second and then said "I really appreciate you supporting me in doing this thing this week" (which involves him getting up at 4 am every morning, the implication being that he's been really tired in the evenings (true) and that was why he didn't help). I validated about his tiredness, said "you're welcome" and we went on with our evening. Weird. Did this dip too close to an R talk?
He may be testing you to see if you will take the bait . Though if he’s getting up earlier he may really just be tired too .H did that a lot . I think you did good . Don’t over think . He is starting to notice some of your improvements and so are you .
Couple things happened this weekend... yesterday we did the whole family thing, soccer games, swim meet, then on the spur of the moment decided to get tickets to the University football game. A couple of times during the day he acted like a total jerk, yelling at me when he spilled snacks (because I had left them in a place that would be easy to spill) and then we left the game with 6 minutes left in the 4th quarter, our team down by 14 pts, other team has the ball, our kids are more than an hour past their bedtimes. We listened to the game on the way home and our team comes back, ties, then loses to a FG at the very end. He yelled at me for leaving (admittedly my idea but he was totally fine with it), calls me an a**hole, the entire reason we went to the game was to experience the end, etc etc, all my fault that we left, he didn't want to but I forced it (bull), etc. I finally told him to cut it out and stop acting like an a**hole.
A little later he comes up to me, doesn't actually apologize but says he was frustrated and knows it was both our decisions to leave. I say I get it but I don't deserve to be treated like this. He apologizes and walks away.
I decided to let it go, take his apology on face value, and hang out with him for awhile. He had also had a stressful encounter with a friend reffing one of our daughters' soccer games in the morning (friend called him an a**hole, popular word yesterday) and he was really upset about it. I am pretty sure that is part of the reason that he was in a bad mood, he just took it out on me. Anyway, he talks for awhile about how he feels about this friend and I listen/validate and stay on his side.
I went to bed earlier than he did and around 3 am woke up to him hugging me. He then snuggles up right next to me, touching (we usually stay on our own sides of the bed, no touching except accidental). We end up starting to have sex, stopping because it is about to only last 30 seconds again, then he starts saying he's not comfortable with this, he's letting his d*** think for him and doesn't know if this is what he wants. He knows it is confusing for me but doesn't feel like he has been "invited" back into our bed, he just came back after his trip and we haven't talked about it. (True.) I asked if he wanted an explicit invitation and he said no, he's been back in the bed for a month... he is just confused and repeated he doesn't know what he wants, we haven't dealt with the issues between us, sex isn't going to fix anything, even though it was part of the problem. I agreed (was desperately trying to avoid an R talk so mostly just listened and asked a few clarifying questions). He said it seemed like we were getting along better, excepting today, but we hadn't talked about anything (meaning our R) for a month or so (been less than that but whatevs). I asked if he wanted to talk to an MC and he repeated he didn't know what he wanted. I said I didn't think sex would fix anything either and that I thought to deal with our issues we needed to see an experienced MC and both want to work on our M. We ended up talking a little bit about Esther Perel and then he went to sleep (I, of course, couldn't sleep and now am a walking zombie).
So... kind of an R talk? I didn't say anything about what I wanted or felt, except to clarify about not sweeping everything under the rug. He didn't say anything about AP and I didn't ask; he also is now back to "I don't know what I want" rather than "I am thinking I want to move out" which is what he said last time we talked. I think I did a good job in mostly listening and didn't try to convince him of anything. The truth is also that I'm starting to get angry with him-- angry for both what he did but also for what he ISN'T doing-- that he isn't prepared to work on our M and even try to fall back in love with me. I don't deserve to be his punching bag when he's upset about other things (though again, he is much improved here than before), which is part of why I'm angry today, but I'm also just frustrated and annoyed that he's still in this "I don't know what I want" and can't even bring himself to TRY.
What should I have done differently? I could have pretended to be asleep after he hugged me in the middle of the night.. I did reciprocate and am responsible for moving it into sex. We also didn't finish, partially because I didn't feel like another slam/bam/thank you maam that was totally focused on him-- I think I could be able to have sex without it affecting me too much emotionally, but I would want it to be for me too, not just for him and I don't think that is where it was going. If that is all it is going to be, I don't see the point either.
Good you didn’t bring up AP. He’s confused don’t add more to the confusion . Let him deal with that alone .
Sex seems to be a source of pressure for him . If he cuddles don’t be the one to turn to sex . Just cuddle . If he moves on to sex if you are going to be emotionally ok with it give it a whirl . If this is one of the main sources of conflict like you said in first post it’s going to take some time before he’s comfortable again . Sex is a hard one some say to do it some say not to . I chose to keep having sex but this was a strong point in my M and I couldn’t pin down an active affair .
I think your DB is helping . Look at his actions . He came back into mbr . He’s hasn’t moved forward with moving out . Apologized for being out of line .
It’s hard when you want them to show just some type of commitment. Marathon not a sprint . GAL more this week . Increase your happiness . You had a little bump with sex put it away and move forward .
Hi May,
I'm amazed how "aware" you were today. He was angry and called you names, partly because his friend was angry and called him names. You realized that but still called him on it and won't be his punching bag.
He yelled at me for leaving (admittedly my idea but he was totally fine with it), calls me an a**hole, the entire reason we went to the game was to experience the end, etc etc, all my fault that we left, he didn't want to but I forced it (bull), etc. I finally told him to cut it out and stop acting like an a**hole.
It sounds like his behavior escalated quickly from something you could validate (his feeling upset that the most exciting moments came just after leaving) to something you'd probably want to set a boundary on and not tolerate for your own mental health (being yelled at and called names).
I did reciprocate and am responsible for moving it into sex. We also didn't finish, partially because I didn't feel like another slam/bam/thank you maam that was totally focused on him-- I think I could be able to have sex without it affecting me too much emotionally, but I would want it to be for me too, not just for him and I don't think that is where it was going. If that is all it is going to be, I don't see the point either.
Sounds smart you stopped the sex, instead of continuing as a one-sided encounter. I see your mixed feelings--is engaging in it pressure, or a way of repairing a key issue? If you two end up engaging again, I wonder if instead of stopping, it's possible to guide him towards a position or another activity where you control his pace. Sorry if that's too graphic! I recall this has been a difficult area for you two.
He didn't say anything about AP and I didn't ask; he also is now back to "I don't know what I want" rather than "I am thinking I want to move out" which is what he said last time we talked.
You got through some tough situations today. I'm glad to hear you may be making progress!
Hi CW,
I'm amazed how "aware" you were today. He was angry and called you names, partly because his friend was angry and called him names. You realized that but still called him on it and won't be his punching bag.
Wow, thanks so much for saying that... putting that lens on it makes me feel really good that I've been able to make that progress for myself and on my own reactions... this is the first time I've really laid down my own boundaries, enforced them... AND then let it go afterwards when he apologized rather than stewing about it all night. Feel good about that!
Sounds smart you stopped the sex, instead of continuing as a one-sided encounter. I see your mixed feelings--is engaging in it pressure, or a way of repairing a key issue? If you two end up engaging again, I wonder if instead of stopping, it's possible to guide him towards a position or another activity where you control his pace. Sorry if that's too graphic! I recall this has been a difficult area for you two.
Yes, this is a tough one. He was clearly so conflicted about it-- it almost seemed like he felt his body was betraying him, and he said he couldn't give me "what I wanted"-- like making love vs. just having sex. I did send him the links to Esther Perel's two TED talks-- he'd heard her on someone's podcast and was interested in her perspectives.
Overall, though, I do feel like there is some progress here, especially with a little distance from Saturday night. We had two great days since then with 180s on both our parts-- Sunday he spent half a day on yardwork, which in the past would have triggered some angry feelings at me (he thinks since I put in the garden I should do more to stay on top of it, and he gets frustrated when things get overgrown). I've been doing more on my own, and then Sunday he just happily did a ton of work (letting me sleep in) and was really nice about it, invited me to participate (which I did) and it ended up being super productive and fun. Maybe doesn't sound like all that big of a deal but I was honestly amazed. Then we talked a ton about how he's feeling about this friend, he was really open about feeling hurt and acknowledged that he doesn't often show those feelings. I got the opportunity to be 100% on his side, which I didn't always do in these situations in the past, and I feel like he really opened up. He's been seeing an IC and I think his ability to acknowledge his feelings is coming through those sessions, and it is great.
Yesterday was also a great day, we helped each other out a lot and he noticed and complimented me on a major 180 for me (we used to be in a place where even when he saying something rude as a joke would trigger me-- now I can just joke back)-- he noticed this yesterday, saying that not only am I so much better at handling his outbursts if he does get mad but now I can tell when he's just joking and give it back. He's initiating a lot of text chatting and conversations.
Anyway-- I do feel like we are reconnecting more emotionally. We have a busy few weeks coming up, with friends coming to stay, then he's off on a business trip (though not to her city thankfully), then my entire family comes for Thanksgiving... usually a stressful time as my mom and H don't always get along so well. I'm wondering if I should say anything to her ahead of time, at least that H is having a difficult time right now (I've told another friend that I thought he was in some version of MLC, which is a lot easier to share than that he's not in love with me anymore and in fact thinks he's in love with a 33 year old)? I don't want to say anything to her that could potentially damage their R or freak her out, but I also want her to be on her absolute best behavior and cut him some slack if things get hairy. My dad too... my H has cultivated this image of someone whose feelings can't be hurt, who jokes around a lot, and who is not afraid of a lively discussion/argument... but then people do say things to him, hurt his feelings, and then he shuts down. (Just like at the soccer game.) I'd love to avoid those situations if at all possible. Any thoughts?
Hi CG,
Sex seems to be a source of pressure for him . If he cuddles don’t be the one to turn to sex . Just cuddle . If he moves on to sex if you are going to be emotionally ok with it give it a whirl . If this is one of the main sources of conflict like you said in first post it’s going to take some time before he’s comfortable again.
I think you're right on-- it is pressure for him and I should just take his lead. He's still definitely holding some resentment/anger for me withholding sex for so long and I also think there is a big part of him that doesn't want to jump back in just because I want to now.
I think your DB is helping . Look at his actions . He came back into mbr . He’s hasn’t moved forward with moving out . Apologized for being out of line .
It’s hard when you want them to show just some type of commitment. Marathon not a sprint . GAL more this week . Increase your happiness . You had a little bump with sex put it away and move forward .
Thank you for this... it DOES really help to look at the actions and see that things are improving, even if baby steps and more slowly than I'd want. Sunday he also finally talked with me a little bit about Christmas vacation plans (I've been quiet to reduce pressure and waiting for him to suggest something) and has talked with other people about a family trip planned for next summer. Definitely need to make some GAL plans and keep my mind on me!
Good job with Christmas. Amazing they are capable of making plans . I did this with a kids birthday . Just mentioned it was ones birthday in a week few months back .I made no plans . Well I had some thoughts I kept to myself . H did all of it on his own . I just went along with it . Ended up being a great day .
Thanks Caligirl! Not much to update-- things continue to be positive/friendly/fun. Friends in town this weekend with an S2 who is a little bit of a monster (super cute but I forgot how destructive 2 year old boys can be) and H and I had the opportunity to be on the same team, rather than letting stress get the better of us and take it out on the other person. We actually had a short conversation about it as we both felt the temperature start to rise, and then everything was fine.
No R talks, no late night sex situations, nothing exciting to report. I do notice more contact (he'll come right up beside me, touching, to get my help on a crossword puzzle) but I definitely feel he is like a skittish cat-- don't call it out or he'll run away. In fact sometimes he notices as it happens and backs away himself.
I had the opportunity for 15 straight minutes with his phone when he was out and I knew there was no chance he'd catch me. Maybe I shouldn't have done this but have really wanted the opportunity to see for myself if there was anything on his phone. Nothing-- no messaging apps, went through everything. He wiped his call log about three weeks ago, halfway through his last trip, so potentially there was contact then (as I've assumed); he also could just be deleting the messages/calls as they come in but my gut is that the EA is over (for now), though may be more because she walked away than he did.
I had the opportunity for 15 straight minutes with his phone when he was out and I knew there was no chance he'd catch me. Maybe I shouldn't have done this but have really wanted the opportunity to see for myself if there was anything on his phone. Nothing-- no messaging apps, went through everything. He wiped his call log about three weeks ago, halfway through his last trip, so potentially there was contact then (as I've assumed); he also could just be deleting the messages/calls as they come in but my gut is that the EA is over (for now), though may be more because she walked away than he did.
Hi May, glad your situation's looking up--that you may be winning back your "skittish cat"!
If she walked away because she asked him to make a choice and he wouldn't, that says something about how he's feeling towards you. May May's relationship keep going in this direction!
Hi May, glad your situation's looking up--that you may be winning back your "skittish cat"!
If she walked away because she asked him to make a choice and he wouldn't, that says something about how he's feeling towards you. May May's relationship keep going in this direction!
Thanks CW! Still nothing to report-- same same, tiny positive steps but I guess boring is good
He's off on a business trip again now-- left late last night but to a different city. he's already texting me a bunch and I'm going to be slow on the responses to see how that all goes and just focus on having fun with the kids. My parents get here too before he gets back, which will also be fun for me and the kids, but I am a bit worried about how they'll interact. Decided not to stress about it and just cross that bridge when it comes-- and if there is tension, an opportunity to show him we're on the same team.
How are things going with you???
Hey May! Glad you are staying so optimistic and open! Keep that focus up. I like your goal of showing him you're on the same team. Slow and steady, consistent actions. We have no way of knowing that he is being "good" while on his trip, but drop the rope on the subject and enjoy life and your kiddos. It sounds like his heart is warming and he's pulling toward you. Don't scare the cat! Hope you have a great weekend.
Kristin
Love you are focusing on the kids ! Sometime even just for a few hours I get lost with them . Some of the best GAL I have .
You are doing great !! Learning to focus on you more .
OK. I need some help from vets.
H is on a business trip, not to the city where AP lives (DC)... or so I thought. Spoke with him last night and there was a last minute change, the group he's working for supposedly asked him to come to DC first for a meeting on Friday, then get to NY for the main meetings he is on this trip for on Monday. The group he's working for has offices in both places.
I called him last night (his time) because someone had opened our mail, and was asking him where he was staying and he told me the change of plans, etc. I am sure he noticed that I was surprised and not super thrilled that he hadn't told me beforehand where he would be. He heads to NY today.
Friday he texted me throughout the day, including a bunch during his dinner/bedtime. Yesterday much less texting, though responded to a text about our daughter's soccer game and texted me a couple things on his own. When I asked him what he'd been up to, he talked all about the dinner he had Friday night and then zero detail for what he ate that night... sure sign of a lie. (We're both into food.) I think at some level he knows I know he's lying, especially this time because he didn't tell me he was going to DC at all on this trip.
So here's my dilemma. Looking at all the small signs, things are definitely much better between us. The fact that he's texting me so much is a huge change from business trips several months ago. When he BD'd the EA on me, I am fairly confident he assumed I'd kick him out, which didn't happen, and then put the onus on him to decide to leave or not... which he hasn't done (and which I'm fairly sure the AP is/was "not happy" about). But, while things have improved, he is definitely not saying that he wants to R yet. Our last R talk, initiated by him a couple of weeks ago, went from "I'm thinking about moving out" to "I don't know what I want"... so improvement, but not anywhere close to actual R. And I am aware that for me to be secure in a future MR with him, he'll have to really want it rather than begrudgingly decide on Plan B (me) and not losing the kids half-time is better than the alternative. At this point, I'm having a really hard time envisioning how that will even ever happen.
I feel like it is incredibly disrespectful to me for him to continue to be in contact with her and lying about it. He knows I know he's talked with her a few times since BD, but not that he saw her once (maybe twice now). Partially I want to tell him if he wants to continue to be in contact with her, he needs to move out. On the other hand, maybe that gives him exactly what he wants (me telling him to go) so that the decision isn't on him. Is that a boundary? or am I just being impatient? I've had a few conversations with a DB coach, who has counseled patience, let this thing die on its own and focus on the friendship between us... but I'm also sick and tired of this. I obviously can't control him and I can't know if he's lying or not. I definitely am observing progress, but I feel like as long as he keeps talking to her, even just a little here or there, he'll never get to a place where he's ready to focus on us.
May many hugs going your way . This is one definitely for the vets .
I think the coach advise with being a little bit more patient . I wouldn’t pay too much attention to it . He knows you know he lied .
I would distance yourself when he comes back but be friendly . Amp up your GAL. He may try to bait you when he gets back . It easier for him to move out if you take the bait . Don’t give him that .
Right now you are running on anger . Try to give it a few days and see how you feel when he returns .
May many hugs going your way . This is one definitely for the vets .
I think the coach advise with being a little bit more patient . I wouldn’t pay too much attention to it . He knows you know he lied .
I would distance yourself when he comes back but be friendly . Amp up your GAL. He may try to bait you when he gets back . It easier for him to move out if you take the bait . Don’t give him that .
Right now you are running on anger . Try to give it a few days and see how you feel when he returns .
Thanks, CG... I needed that. I think at this point I'm going to go as NC as possible while he's away. No real reason to chat with him. He texted me a bit ago and I'm ignoring it.
When he gets back, my parents will already be here, and then my entire family (brothers, spouses and kids) for a week, so not a great time to be distant since I know he already sometimes feels a bit on the outs when my family is around-- would be a pretty easy way to make him feel crappy and drive him further away. Right now I'm thinking NC as much as possible until he returns, then friendly/nice in person... then maybe recalibrate with a little more distance after they leave. I am definitely feeling the anger right now.
Would love more opinions on this too...
I wouldn’t pull back if you go friendly/nice when your family is here . Too much from NC to friendly/nice to recalibrating .
Distant but friendly. Do the friendly house guest your coach said weeks ago .Enjoy time with your family . Really enjoy your family !!! It’s a tough balance . Don’t let his trip get into your head or emotions .
May,
Girl have I been here before. I am sure your head is spinning and you feel completely panicked. Breathe. The whole situation just s*cks. The vets probably have much better advice than I could muster. But I'm thinking about you and you're not alone. I agree with Cali in that I wouldn't go from NC to friendly and then back as it could come off as too hot and cold. I'm still wrapping my head around what a good balance actually means myself, but the friendly approach seems to effect your WH in a good way. Sending you lots of hugs today.
Kristin
I feel like it is incredibly disrespectful to me for him to continue to be in contact with her and lying about it.
Ouch! It must be frustrating to make so much progress--then he (probably) meets OW again and lies about it. I'd be angry at the dweeb! You have a good head on your shoulders, and are doing so much right. Also sending hugs your way, and well-wishes that the trip helped him better realize what he has.
I get the idea behind the cool-warm-cool approach--he's uncomfortable around your family. I agree with Cali the rapid changes may be more confusing than helpful and if you pick one that's probably better.
Hi CG and Kristin,
You guys are so amazing... I'm really thankful for you both!
D7, D9 and I had a really great weekend. Did a ton of fun stuff (plus they cleaned up their playroom!!) and had a blast. H texted me a few times yesterday in the afternoon my time (evening his time-- he's now no longer in her city) and I didn't respond to the more comments/observation ones. He then texted "how are my babies?" and I waited 20 minutes or so then responded "Great!" He responded right away "Busy day? Tell them I love them" to which I didn't respond.
This morning he called/texted a couple of times to try to catch the girls and say hi in the morning. We called him back in the car on the way to school. I was pretty neutral but we chatted a bit and he talked to the girls too.
Distant but friendly. Do the friendly house guest your coach said weeks ago .Enjoy time with your family . Really enjoy your family !!! It’s a tough balance . Don’t let his trip get into your head or emotions .
I agree with Cali in that I wouldn't go from NC to friendly and then back as it could come off as too hot and cold. I'm still wrapping my head around what a good balance actually means myself, but the friendly approach seems to effect your WH in a good way.
I'll work on this... I think you're both right. I saw on someone else's thread the analogy of the cat (?) coming out of the castle to sniff around your picnic, running back inside, etc and you just need to keep enjoying your picnic. (Maybe I'm mixing two together, but you get the gist.) Maybe he ran back inside with this trip. Kristin, he DOES respond well to friendliness. I'm just feeling angry right now and it is hard to be friendly/distant when I want to do a whole bunch of unproductive things, like saying horrible things to him that will be hard to take back.
I know my bias will be towards enjoying my family and letting H swing on the outs if he acts like a jerk (which he does when he is feeling insecure), but I think that would be pretty damaging. Last year on spring break we traveled with another family, H was a jerk one day and the other parents and I were all like WTF. I was not on his side and I know he really felt that distance from everyone... which made him say later that he knows most of our friends here are my friends, not his, so he doesn't have a lot to lose if we D since they're not really his friends anyway. Think this is something I'll have to really work on if I want to be his friend while my family is here. If he feels ostracized he'll just retreat further.
The other thing I can't stop thinking about-- which is also pretty unproductive-- is what is the AP possibly thinking? She seems like a fairly successful, good-looking woman, 33 yo (UGH--he was also proud to tell me she runs marathons)-- why is she wasting her time on this married man who lives 5000 miles away? I know that is what she's said to him also back in July/August, though maybe that was just a ploy to get him to leave me-- but in any case, even if it was "true love" between the two of them, the likelihood of it working out just seems so slim. I would guess her clock is ticking and maybe she feels like she's invested a lot of time now into my H, but they're both being total idiots.
Not much to report. He's texting a lot, called a few times, being really nice. In fact, I was kind of annoyed at him on the phone (spillover from the whole sitch) and he defused the situation and made me laugh. Nice to see him doing the hard work for a change.
Still mulling over whether or not to tell my mom any of what is going on when my parents get here tomorrow, and a bit worried about the family dynamics, but overall I'm feeling less angry and more back into calm DB mode.
I gave my folks limited information. I will say it’s easier for him to join my family for events or gatherings because I have a very strong stance on things . It’s my M so my choice to R. H parents were what I like to call “fakes” nice because they had to be when things were good but man did they really drive hard how he should not be with me when he ran .
I’m glad you are back to friendly . Build on this . Be confident and consistent with your stance .
Don’t let AP occupy your head . How many 33 year old , knock out , marathon runners you know that are single ?? There’s deep issues there . Most likely she’s a walking train wreck . You are a calm , friendly , caring , fit and confident catch .
Thanks CG
I am trying not to think about the AP. I actually hope she isn't a train wreck because it makes it more likely she's moving on and can find her OWN g-d husband instead of trying to poach mine
He comes home today and I thanks in great part to you guys, I am set to be confident, positive and friendly-- as best I can with the chaos of my entire family. My mom can be difficult and I already see her saying/doing things that are likely to irritate him. (They irritate me too but she's my mom!)
So he's back, things have been really positive. He's been super nice to my mom (and me) and nudged me under the table when she said something weird rather than get irritated, making us both have to fight cracking up.
He also said a couple of things that were borderline rude to me-- things that in the past would have started a big fight. The first thing I brushed off as it wasn't all that big of a deal. He came back into the room and apologized really nicely in front of my parents for what he said. Then this morning he said something kind of hurtful to me about my mom and instead of reacting I said "that kind of hurt my feelings"-- he immediately backtracked and I let it go. Then later on he called me to apologize and did so really nicely again.
So, I'll keep focusing on the positives and being positive and confident myself. Don't feel like any of the above means anything in terms of how he's feeling about R or not, but sure makes it easier to be fun and friendly when he's being the same.
Has he always said rude things ? He may not even realize they come off that way .
May, I just have to say. I read your whole thread and I think you're amazing. You could write the book on how to do DB right. What you have had to endure is beyond what I could. My god, a 33 year old AP .... I know with certainty that I would have walked away and probably trashed a few personal effects on the way out the door. Then tortured myself for weeks.. But I don't have two kids. If anyone makes this work, you will. I want to offer you my best wishes for this holiday. You're on the right track in my opinion.
May, I just have to say. I read your whole thread and I think you're amazing. You could write the book on how to do DB right. What you have had to endure is beyond what I could. My god, a 33 year old AP .... I know with certainty that I would have walked away and probably trashed a few personal effects on the way out the door. Then tortured myself for weeks.. But I don't have two kids. If anyone makes this work, you will. I want to offer you my best wishes for this holiday. You're on the right track in my opinion.
Wow, thank you KC... that is really nice of you to say and so encouraging. Though there are definitely folks on this board who are dealing with way worse. The kids are a big part of why I'm working through this (and to be honest if we didn't have kids I don't know if we would have gotten into our current sitch... we absolutely neglected each other for the kids once they came along). And, if the AP lived here I think I would also have trashed some personal effects and done things I regret
Has he always said rude things ? He may not even realize they come off that way .
Yup. This is definitely one of his issues... with everyone, not just with me. But he also is the worst apologizer in the world (he might say second worst after me)-- has the hardest time admitting a mistake or saying sorry. So the fact that he has been able to apologize and repair after being a jerk is a big deal. Not sure how much of that is DBing (I have definitely been working hard on setting a good example here) or his IC, or both.. but it is a big improvement from the past for sure.
So I'll pose the same question to you: Do you want him back in the MB if he doesn't want to be there??
"We did have a weird middle of the night exchange when he hugged me and we started to have sex, stopped, and he said he didn't feel like he had been "invited" back into our bed because we'd never talked about it. I definitely know he isn't comfortable being physical, at least when he thinks about it, and I think if I pushed him to think about it too much he might want to move back out. I basically never said a word."
Because this makes me think that you do.
Which is very odd considering your "feral cat" analogy. "He is a feral cat, that gets scared away, so I force him to sleep in the same bed as me!" ????
I really feel that LBSs, and it seems LBWs struggle with this more than LBHs, struggle the most with continuing to want certain things because it makes them "feel" better. As if living in a state of denial is better than knowing the truth, and dealing with the truth. We've had lots of LBWs here that act of fear. "If I don't say I love you first then I feel that he won't think I love him!" "If I kick him out of the MBR, aren't I pushing him into the arms of the OW?" "If I don't continue to be a W to him, I am afraid that he will look for someone else that will!"
Fact: He fired you as his W on bomb day.
Fact: The best way to show him what that means is to STOP acting like his W.
Fact: Pressure and pursuit almost ALWAYS results in producing what you fear most.
Hi Steve,
thanks for posting... moved it to my thread so I didn't hijack someone else's. I do want to clarify that I didn't force him to do anything-- I told him one time only I wasn't comfortable with the kids finding out that he was sleeping in the office, and he said maybe it was good for them to understand that Rs were work and things weren't always perfect. I didn't argue, validated (he had a point) and just said I wasn't sure I was ready for them knowing. That was the last time we talked about it and a few weeks later he just got back into the MB after a trip and that was that.
I think his comment about not being "invited" back into the bed was weird. H is not someone you can force into anything and he made his own choice to come back. I just didn't question it, say anything about it to him, basically kept my mouth shut and pretended to not really notice. That being said, I'm pretty sure he isn't back because he wants to R with me or sleep with me-- my guess is that he kind of feels the same way about not necessarily being ready to take this potential S/D thing to the next level by the kids finding out. I do think if I said anything to him about being back in the MB and acting like I thought it meant something like he was in love with me again, or wanted to R, he would run the other way (like a feral cat).
The MB and what it means for sex is also a difficult issue with us, because I was the one who didn't want to have sex with him for a long long time-- and he came to the conclusion that I wasn't sexually attracted to him anymore. He told me I 'broke him' sexually (this is probably a year before he started the EA and six months before the ILYB BD). I guess I didn't really act like his W for a long time, in one way that was really important to him. He said he couldn't imagine being in a sexual relationship with me again because he'd always imagine I was pretending just to stay together. So partially I do feel like sleeping in the same bed and giving some opportunities for sex to arise naturally is not a bad thing... though after that last interlude I've decided I'm not interested in sex again until he's ready to reconcile. (He thinks I fired him as an H years ago by refusing sex for all that time.)
But to your question-- do I want him in the MB if he doesn't want to be there-- I feel like you could expand that question to do I want him in the house if he doesn't want to be there, and do I want to be married to him if he doesn't want to be my H in a full MR-- and I have a couple of answers to that. In the near term, I feel like I am really hoping that he'll be ready to R without needing to take it to another level (like him moving out), so that people don't need to know, including the children.
I struggle somewhat with this because I also feel like reading through here maybe the fastest/most likely road to R would be kicking him to the curb and letting him see what life really is like without me. However, if I can avoid that and all that entails, from explaining to family/friends to hurting the kids, I would far prefer to do that. If it takes longer that way but the children stay out of it, I am OK with it taking longer. So, by him staying in the house, staying in the MB, our R better in most ways EXCEPT we aren't having sex because of him, not me-- I am OK with letting him still have some parts of me as a W. I don't think I'm fully ready to stand behind the LRT in any case.
And also...I truly don't know if I would want to stay married to him if this is as good as it is going to get. I am 100% holding onto hope that he'll want to R and we will build a new, sexual/intimate MR together-- but to be perfectly honest? I probably would be OK with how it is in order to keep the kids in a 2 parent household and to get to keep them 100 percent of the time. Splitting custody of the children terrifies me and I would honestly do just about anything to keep that from happening, as long as we can keep the 'best friends/co-parents' kind of R that we do now. We aren't fighting, when we do we can repair way more easily than we used to-- we just aren't having sex and he isn't "in love" with me anymore. So maybe I don't have the right attitude or mindset yet to be a good DB-er... but that is where I am.
Sorry... to add on-- Steve (or other vets) what are your thoughts? Am I hopeless? I am having a hard time separating what I might want/deserve as a woman from her H vs what I want as a mom for my kids.
I have lost 15 lbs and have regained a lot of confidence in my body and appearance, which is helping me a lot regardless of anything to do with him. But I do know that he thinks choosing to stay means I "win" (or at least he's said that). He also thinks that emotional intimacy = R talks, and since I've been avoiding them like the plague the last couple of months he thinks I'm just trying to pretend this never happened and want to go back to how it was.
Hi Steve,
thanks for posting... moved it to my thread so I didn't hijack someone else's. I do want to clarify that I didn't force him to do anything-- I told him one time only I wasn't comfortable with the kids finding out that he was sleeping in the office, and he said maybe it was good for them to understand that Rs were work and things weren't always perfect. I didn't argue, validated (he had a point) and just said I wasn't sure I was ready for them knowing. That was the last time we talked about it and a few weeks later he just got back into the MB after a trip and that was that.
Understood. My comment about wanting him back in the MBR if he doesn't want to be there was more about your attitude toward him being in there rather than how he actually ended up back in there. So many LBWs want things like having him move back home, or back into the MBR, even if it is begrudging on the WAH's part. It as if LBWs want to feel better with surface things regardless of the reality. That was all I was trying to get you and the other LBW to see.
I think his comment about not being "invited" back into the bed was weird. H is not someone you can force into anything and he made his own choice to come back. I just didn't question it, say anything about it to him, basically kept my mouth shut and pretended to not really notice. That being said, I'm pretty sure he isn't back because he wants to R with me or sleep with me-- my guess is that he kind of feels the same way about not necessarily being ready to take this potential S/D thing to the next level by the kids finding out. I do think if I said anything to him about being back in the MB and acting like I thought it meant something like he was in love with me again, or wanted to R, he would run the other way (like a feral cat).
His comment about being invited or not is typical WAS stuff. They make the decision to leave the MBR. They make the decision to start ending the marriage. And then put the onus on the LBS. It is pure excuses. "Well, she never invited me back." Yet she (the LBW) nevert asked him to leave in the first place! And this paragraph is why I said in the other thread "he returned when he wanted to". Because whether that was because he didn't want to affect the kids, or whether it was to sleep next to his W, or because the mattress is better. He did it because he wanted to! My comment about him returning because he wanted to was for the other LBW in that thread. Because she was looking for a magic bullet to get her WAH to return the MBR. Unfortunately it doesn't work that way.
Newcomers always ask: When will my WAS want to R? The answer is the same. It will happen when THEY decide THEY want to R. As you stated above, you can't force anyone. But the LBS's attitude should still be that you don't want the WAS to R, or to move back home, or return the MBR until THEY want to. Otherwise it is toothless and means nothing.
The MB and what it means for sex is also a difficult issue with us, because I was the one who didn't want to have sex with him for a long long time-- and he came to the conclusion that I wasn't sexually attracted to him anymore. He told me I 'broke him' sexually (this is probably a year before he started the EA and six months before the ILYB BD). I guess I didn't really act like his W for a long time, in one way that was really important to him. He said he couldn't imagine being in a sexual relationship with me again because he'd always imagine I was pretending just to stay together. So partially I do feel like sleeping in the same bed and giving some opportunities for sex to arise naturally is not a bad thing... though after that last interlude I've decided I'm not interested in sex again until he's ready to reconcile. (He thinks I fired him as an H years ago by refusing sex for all that time.)
I can relate to your H a lot on this. I had EAs when my W didn't want to have sex with me for many years. Even recently she admitted that she has sex with me for me. It is difficult for a man's ego to have a W that doesn't want or desire him sexually. After all, that is the part of the relationship that really sets it apart from all the other women that a man knows in life. Of all the women at church, at work, at the grocery store, etc, the thing that delineates my relationship with my W more than any other factor is that fact that we get naked and sexually intimate with one another. When a W stops doing that with her H, that special nature of their R goes away in his mind. And you the W starts to become not much different than all those other women mentioned above. And in fact a lot of sex-starved husbands start to treat their wives no different than those other women. I know that's what I did.
I think you have a unique opportunity in your sitch. To turn it around by bringing that special nature back to your MR. Our typical advice to LBS is to NOT initiate sex. But that is primarily to LBSs that were in sexually healthy Rs, and primarily to LBHs because they can get their jewels crushed quickly by being turned down. I think if you tried initiating with your H. and then continued do so occasionally, it could really turn the dynamic of your MR around and move you quicker in to Ring. I must caution, if you choose that path go into it with NO EXPECTATIONS. Including potentially being turned down. Brace yourself for it. However, I can tell you that if my W initiated with me (and she did as we started to R if you read my threads), there is no way I would turn her down. I say this because I know how your H feels. He has been so rejected, so beaten down sexually, that he is unlikely to ever initiate again. But I also know how I feel sleeping in bed next to my hot W! That I would kill for her to reach over....start stroking my back, or chest, and slowly move that hand down......while she leans over and passionately kisses me. So maybe explore that sometime but do so with your feelings clearly held in check.
One huge caveat: Only do that if you are 100%, not 99.999999999%, sure that he is not in a PA. If there is any doubt you must protect your health. A LBS should never ever have sex with a spouse in a PA due to disease.
But to your question-- do I want him in the MB if he doesn't want to be there-- I feel like you could expand that question to do I want him in the house if he doesn't want to be there, and do I want to be married to him if he doesn't want to be my H in a full MR-- and I have a couple of answers to that. In the near term, I feel like I am really hoping that he'll be ready to R without needing to take it to another level (like him moving out), so that people don't need to know, including the children.
Very astute! This is 100% true that this thinking can be applied to all those other areas. And I agree with you that the best path forward is for you to be patience, give him time and space, and let him come back to the MR without it going to the next level first. It is a much easier path to R if the problems are only known to the two of you. Every person that knows about your sitch is another obstacle in your H's way. This is why I implore LBS to not discuss their sitch with family and friends. I know in my sitch the one thing that really helped my W come back to the MR was that no one else knew about what she was doing. In fact, I believe she would have used friends and family knowing as an excuse to never comeback to the MR.
I struggle somewhat with this because I also feel like reading through here maybe the fastest/most likely road to R would be kicking him to the curb and letting him see what life really is like without me. However, if I can avoid that and all that entails, from explaining to family/friends to hurting the kids, I would far prefer to do that. If it takes longer that way but the children stay out of it, I am OK with it taking longer. So, by him staying in the house, staying in the MB, our R better in most ways EXCEPT we aren't having sex because of him, not me-- I am OK with letting him still have some parts of me as a W. I don't think I'm fully ready to stand behind the LRT in any case.
LRT and "going dark" is often one of the most misunderstood parts of DBing. LRT and going dark are for very specific circumstances. When a WAS has moved out, moved on, maybe even involved with another person. Not for sitches like yours where the LBS is still in the house, and has recently come back to he MBR! However, you can improve your situation through solid DBing actions: GAL. 180s. Detaching (google "self-differentiation in marriage" for a better understanding of detachment). Giving him time and space. Learning how to properly validate his feelings. But also having an "whatever" attitude (this comes with detachment). Your goal is to get to a place where he could come to you and confess having an orgy with 100 women, and you would go: "Oh, ok." and go back to whatever you were doing with out a reaction. That is tough to get to, but that is the type of attitude you need to take with him.
And also...I truly don't know if I would want to stay married to him if this is as good as it is going to get. I am 100% holding onto hope that he'll want to R and we will build a new, sexual/intimate MR together-- but to be perfectly honest? I probably would be OK with how it is in order to keep the kids in a 2 parent household and to get to keep them 100 percent of the time. Splitting custody of the children terrifies me and I would honestly do just about anything to keep that from happening, as long as we can keep the 'best friends/co-parents' kind of R that we do now. We aren't fighting, when we do we can repair way more easily than we used to-- we just aren't having sex and he isn't "in love" with me anymore. So maybe I don't have the right attitude or mindset yet to be a good DB-er... but that is where I am.
Limbo is tough. Limbo is hard. Limbo stinks. But look at limbo as the gift of time! We see a lot of LBSs here. The ones whose WAS is sprinting towards separation and D beg for more time. The ones that are stuck in what feels like endless limbo want something, anything to go faster (usually until it switches to sprinting towards separation and D). So don't look at limbo as being so terrible, because it could get worse and he could quickly go to the next level.
Lots of LBS have questions like: when will I know when it is time to move on? When will I know when they want to R? When will -insert question here-. All I can tel you is that you will know. We have a saying "When they want to R, you will know. When they don't, you will be confused." And if limbo goes on long enough, eventually you will have had a enough and you will know it is time to move things forward yourself. So don't dwell on the whens and ifs, dwell on the moment at hand and what is the best way to handle what you are dealing with at that moment from a DBing standpoint! And when in doubt, come here to get advice.
may I feel pretty good about your sitch, assuming he is not in a PA. EAs either become PAs or they die out. If he is in a PA this greatly complicates things and greatly changes the things you should be doing. (For instance, you SHOULD ask him to leave the MBR in that case, etc).
Keep on DBing!
may22, I finally finished reading your entire thread. I must say that you're doing an awesome job.....you're lucky that your H is still in the house, but I can imagine that only makes detaching that much harder when he's around all the time.
I am in a similar situation and can resonate with you on a lot of your views. Esp the bit about kids. Other than a few close friends, we have yet to tell our parents/our kids about what we're going through. And it gets so hard sometimes keep up the front.
sex is also an issue for us, and my H admitted to me that he's still hurt by my past rejections and he doesn't know whether coming back will change anything. He thinks that if he comes back, slowly with time, everything is just going to go back to the way it was (him feeling rejected all the time).
anyways, I just wanted to tell you that I admire your composure in all of this, esp with EA happening...I don't know how you do it!!!
We've had lots of LBWs here that act of fear. "If I don't say I love you first then I feel that he won't think I love him!" "If I kick him out of the MBR, aren't I pushing him into the arms of the OW?" "If I don't continue to be a W to him, I am afraid that he will look for someone else that will!"
Fact: He fired you as his W on bomb day.
Fact: The best way to show him what that means is to STOP acting like his W.
Fact: Pressure and pursuit almost ALWAYS results in producing what you fear most.
Steve85, I have to admit that sometimes it is hard for me to read your comments because they are so direct and no sugarcoating.....but I needed to hear this today. Thank you. Still trying to wrap my brain around this.
Your goal is to get to a place where he could come to you and confess having an orgy with 100 women, and you would go: "Oh, ok." and go back to whatever you were doing with out a reaction.
LOL. This is gold. I'd love to get to that state of mind. What if the H takes my non-reaction as a sign that I don't care/love anymore? I feel like this goes back to what you said above about LBW and fear. I'm still trying to understand what you wrote there.
All I can tel you is that you will know. We have a saying "When they want to R, you will know. When they don't, you will be confused." And if limbo goes on long enough, eventually you will have had a enough and you will know it is time to move things forward yourself. So don't dwell on the whens and ifs, dwell on the moment at hand and what is the best way to handle what you are dealing with at that moment from a DBing standpoint! And when in doubt, come here to get advice.
And this. If I could print anything out and stick it to my frig it'd be this. Thank you.
Hey May! I haven't dropped you a line in a while so I thought I would check in. I hope you had a great Thanksgiving. It sounds like you are doing great. H is definitely playing the blame shifting game (probably due to a guilty conscience) with the "I wasn't invited back into the MB". Take it in stride. If you could emotionally handle the rejection, the advice about initiating might be good in your case - as long as there isn't a PA. Stay strong and keep the focus girl! As far as your kiddos go, as hard as it is, try not to think of the future and what-ifs. Just keep being a great mom and take it one day at a time.
Hugs!
KG
Steve,
This Thanksgiving I'm grateful to YOU and to the rest of this board-- truly sanity-saving. I don't know where I'd be without this outlet and advice, and really appreciate your thoughts on my sitch.
I can relate to your H a lot on this. I had EAs when my W didn't want to have sex with me for many years. Even recently she admitted that she has sex with me for me. It is difficult for a man's ego to have a W that doesn't want or desire him sexually. After all, that is the part of the relationship that really sets it apart from all the other women that a man knows in life. Of all the women at church, at work, at the grocery store, etc, the thing that delineates my relationship with my W more than any other factor is that fact that we get naked and sexually intimate with one another. When a W stops doing that with her H, that special nature of their R goes away in his mind. And you the W starts to become not much different than all those other women mentioned above. And in fact a lot of sex-starved husbands start to treat their wives no different than those other women. I know that's what I did.
I think you have a unique opportunity in your sitch. To turn it around by bringing that special nature back to your MR. Our typical advice to LBS is to NOT initiate sex. But that is primarily to LBSs that were in sexually healthy Rs, and primarily to LBHs because they can get their jewels crushed quickly by being turned down. I think if you tried initiating with your H. and then continued do so occasionally, it could really turn the dynamic of your MR around and move you quicker in to Ring. I must caution, if you choose that path go into it with NO EXPECTATIONS. Including potentially being turned down. Brace yourself for it. However, I can tell you that if my W initiated with me (and she did as we started to R if you read my threads), there is no way I would turn her down. I say this because I know how your H feels. He has been so rejected, so beaten down sexually, that he is unlikely to ever initiate again. But I also know how I feel sleeping in bed next to my hot W! That I would kill for her to reach over....start stroking my back, or chest, and slowly move that hand down......while she leans over and passionately kisses me. So maybe explore that sometime but do so with your feelings clearly held in check.
One huge caveat: Only do that if you are 100%, not 99.999999999%, sure that he is not in a PA. If there is any doubt you must protect your health. A LBS should never ever have sex with a spouse in a PA due to disease.
So... weirdly enough, after I'd posted to you (and before I read your response) the night before last, I woke up from a weird dream, kind of freaked out and think I must have woken him up too. He rolled over, asked what was up (I said I had a weird dream) and then he started kissing me, very gently and nicely, then grabbed my hand. We sat like that for a few minutes. I had previously decided I wasn't going to push the sex part since the last time didn't go so well and wanted to be sure that he was really into it, so just held his hand. I am 99% sure he was waiting to see if I would try to initiate. I didn't, he eventually let go of my hand and rolled back to his side of the bed and went to sleep.
Now I'm feeling like I should have moved forward. I just didn't want to get us into a similar conversation/situation as the last time, which turned into an R talk and he was clearly so conflicted about doing it with me. And, I thought maybe it wasn't a bad thing for him not to see me as so eager when he's fired me as a W. Hopefully it didn't just bring back all his feelings of being rejected. I don't think so, though, as I didn't actively reject him-- just responded to him in kind (kissed him back when he kissed me, entwined my hands with his when he held mine) but didn't move it forward at all.
Steve, I also really appreciate your perspective as a H who had a W who was also not so interested in sex. For many years, I really didn't think it was all that big of a deal, then (after the ILYB BD) I felt like there was something wrong with me. Now I've been reading a lot about female sexuality and desire and this is an area where I really want to work. I *want* to have a passionate and healthy sex life with my H-- I really don't want to go back to how it was before. When we've talked about it in R talks, he's angry that I ignored it as an issue for so long and now, FINALLY accept it is an issue and am ready to have sex with him now that he's no longer interested-- my coach thinks his ego is involved here somewhat too and he doesn't want to feel like he's at my beck and call now that I'm interested in sex again. I also think he's frightened that we'd just go back to how it was after a bit and since he's in this place where he's detached from me, he doesn't want to risk getting emotionally involved again only to go through this same thing down the line in a few years.
Anyway, I will read through your whole thread (have only read the beginning and more recent posts so far)... seems like there will be a lot there that will be helpful for me!!
Also, I have some recommendations of books for your wife if this is an area she also wants to better understand about herself. For me, just knowing that there isn't anything wrong with me and researchers are learning more and more now about the complexities of (and role of context in) female desire was very helpful. Previously, I'd thought that I mostly needed to "fake it til you make it" in terms of having more sex, which isn't very attractive for either party to think about.
One huge caveat: Only do that if you are 100%, not 99.999999999%, sure that he is not in a PA. If there is any doubt you must protect your health. A LBS should never ever have sex with a spouse in a PA due to disease.
I'm 99.999% positive he isn't in a PA, but don't know how I could possibly be 100%... the good thing is that she lives 5000 miles away and they've only been in the same city six or so times total in the last 11 months, when they started talking. I know he's kissed her, he said that they had kissed a couple of times and then stopped, knowing it was wrong and they couldn't take it any further. (I don't think this is because he's any kind of hero, though I NEVER would have thought he would be someone to even be in an EA let alone kiss someone else-- I think it may be more because she was the one to stop it than he was.)
I honestly don't know how much they're even talking these days and am not so sure it is as much about her as the AP for him at this point as it is the fact that he has feelings for someone else and not for his wife, which to him means the sexual/passionate connection between us is dead and impossible to bring back (which also helps him to feel less guilty).
However, in thinking through the risks, I'm willing to take that 0.000001% chance that there is a PA-- small enough risk to my health that I'm willing to take it on if this is a possible route to R.
Very astute! This is 100% true that this thinking can be applied to all those other areas. And I agree with you that the best path forward is for you to be patience, give him time and space, and let him come back to the MR without it going to the next level first. It is a much easier path to R if the problems are only known to the two of you. Every person that knows about your sitch is another obstacle in your H's way. This is why I implore LBS to not discuss their sitch with family and friends. I know in my sitch the one thing that really helped my W come back to the MR was that no one else knew about what she was doing. In fact, I believe she would have used friends and family knowing as an excuse to never comeback to the MR.
This is super helpful. I haven't told anyone which is HARD for me (except that I have all you guys here) and a couple of friends think that H is having some version of an MLC (there are also some potential MLC markers for him, including this year is the first year he's made less $$ than me, his business (sole proprietorship) isn't doing as well as it had been, and while our lives had been mostly focused on his career/schooling since we had kids, including moving across the country for his graduate degree, this past year I participated in a prestigious fellowship program and he was the spouse instead of center stage). I really toyed with saying something to my mom over Thanksgiving, but I haven't. I do think if he takes it a step further like S, I would have a really hard time not throwing him under the bus... but hopefully we don't have to go there.
LRT and "going dark" is often one of the most misunderstood parts of DBing. LRT and going dark are for very specific circumstances. When a WAS has moved out, moved on, maybe even involved with another person. Not for sitches like yours where the LBS is still in the house, and has recently come back to he MBR! However, you can improve your situation through solid DBing actions: GAL. 180s. Detaching (google "self-differentiation in marriage" for a better understanding of detachment). Giving him time and space. Learning how to properly validate his feelings. But also having an "whatever" attitude (this comes with detachment). Your goal is to get to a place where he could come to you and confess having an orgy with 100 women, and you would go: "Oh, ok." and go back to whatever you were doing with out a reaction. That is tough to get to, but that is the type of attitude you need to take with him.
I have a ways to go still on the detachment. Definitely see some progress from a few months ago in re-reading this thread, but I'm not to where I need to be. This week has been extra hard with all the pressure of my entire family around and trying to both make sure he feels heard/validated by me while keeping my mom happy (even when H does act somewhat like a brat) is not fun. I'm sure I haven't been the unperturbed, positive, detached person I would like to be (and like Caligirl is... she's my hero
)-- now that people are starting to head back home I will need to refocus on GALing, validating, and detaching as much as I can.
Limbo is tough. Limbo is hard. Limbo stinks. But look at limbo as the gift of time! We see a lot of LBSs here. The ones whose WAS is sprinting towards separation and D beg for more time. The ones that are stuck in what feels like endless limbo want something, anything to go faster (usually until it switches to sprinting towards separation and D). So don't look at limbo as being so terrible, because it could get worse and he could quickly go to the next level.
Lots of LBS have questions like: when will I know when it is time to move on? When will I know when they want to R? When will -insert question here-. All I can tel you is that you will know. We have a saying "When they want to R, you will know. When they don't, you will be confused." And if limbo goes on long enough, eventually you will have had a enough and you will know it is time to move things forward yourself. So don't dwell on the whens and ifs, dwell on the moment at hand and what is the best way to handle what you are dealing with at that moment from a DBing standpoint! And when in doubt, come here to get advice.
may I feel pretty good about your sitch, assuming he is not in a PA. EAs either become PAs or they die out. If he is in a PA this greatly complicates things and greatly changes the things you should be doing. (For instance, you SHOULD ask him to leave the MBR in that case, etc).
Keep on DBing!
Limbo *is* awful... but you're right, not as awful as pushing him out the door. That would be worse, and keeping that in mind-- plus thinking of this limbo as the gift of time-- really helps keep me from doing anything stupid.
Again, I really don't think he is in a PA, at least currently-- my best guess is that he still feels 'in love' with her but that they're aren't in regular communication because he hasn't made any significant steps towards leaving the M with me, and I think that she gave him an ultimatum. Even the couple of evenings on his last few trips that I think he may have had dinner with her (once for sure, second time on this last trip is a maybe) I spoke with him at length pretty late before he went to bed and he wasn't trying to get off the phone, so I would be totally weirded out if he was actually with her for the whole night. And yes, of course they might have had a quickie or whatever in the hotel room or her place then went their separate ways, but why would they do that when I'm 5000 miles away and they have the freedom to do whatever they want?
If I did have proof he was in a PA (or if the AP lived here and they saw each other regularly) I know I would have a waaaay harder time dealing with all of this in the way I am now. I would definitely have kicked him out of the MB. I do feel fortunate that my sitch is not as bad as so many others, and that the circumstances are making it easier for me to handle than it could have been otherwise.
Even so, I do think the EA is on its last legs, maybe more because of her than him, but he isn't mentally disconnected from her yet and carries a lot of guilt about how he feels on top of everything else. And while things have improved, he is definitely not ready to R yet and I know I have a ways to go.
I'll keep thinking on how to initiate sex and try not to dwell too much on maybe having missed an opportunity the night before last. Any other recommendations?
Hey May! I haven't dropped you a line in a while so I thought I would check in. I hope you had a great Thanksgiving. It sounds like you are doing great. H is definitely playing the blame shifting game (probably due to a guilty conscience) with the "I wasn't invited back into the MB". Take it in stride. If you could emotionally handle the rejection, the advice about initiating might be good in your case - as long as there isn't a PA. Stay strong and keep the focus girl! As far as your kiddos go, as hard as it is, try not to think of the future and what-ifs. Just keep being a great mom and take it one day at a time.
Hugs!
KG
Thanks Kristin-- been thinking about you too over this past week! Hope you had a great Thanksgiving-- what did you end up doing? Hugs back to you!!