Junior Member
An uninspiring title that doesn't begin to scratch the surface of my current state. This is very difficult to write because there is so much to write about.
Current status: Wife and I have are doing a live-in separation. Me 43, she 42 with 2 boys ages 10 and 12.
History: Acquaintances in high school, connected during college, dating after college. Lived together for a year before she moved out to buy her own home. Remained friends, eventually dating again, and several years later, married. We moved away from family and friends in 2009 (me following work). About a year later, we're struggling. Found draft text to an ex-bf (with whom she had an abortion with in college) with her in just bra and panties bragging about her 35-year old body. Later accidentally found out that while back in our home state she went out to dinner with an ex-fiance. Weeks later, she's contacted an attorney and sold her wedding band. Few months later and she indicates that she's here to stay, committed to working on the marriage and will not divorce me.
Issues: Me - early on and through the first several years of marriage it was anger. Angry outbursts, including road rage, raging at myself for perceived mistakes, physically hitting myself and verbally abusing myself, including suicidal talk, raging at her for perceived slights and mistakes. Raging here meaning yelling and aggressive tone of voice. Last several years the anger has receded (though not completely gone as I would lose patience and temper with my young children, including yelling at them and name-calling), but replaced with what I have recently found out to be depression that led to physical and emotional isolation and withdrawal lasting from a day to several days to several weeks. This manifested itself as not going to bed with my wife, not talking to or saying very little, not going on family activities, including holidays. Also a long history of passive aggressive behaviors, including snooping on her phone/internet and then coming at her sideways rather than talking directly about an issue.
Recent history - last 6 months: early part of 2019 characterized by me being isolated and withdrawn, frozen and unable to discuss problems I am having with her behavior or my personal issues (working with IC) or my feelings within the marriage. I initiate marriage counseling in March/April. No romantic intimacy since late 2018; sporadic "I love you's" and kissing/hugging through May.
Father's Day this year she informs me that she wants to separate following an instance the night before where, again, I don't handle my 10 year old's behavior well, including raising my voice and her stepping in but me not walking away (consistent theme the last 2 years). We agree to hold off telling our boys until after our summer trip to home state in July. Sleep in same bed, doing family activities, etc. No hugging, kissing. Doing MC with talk about possible reconciliation and the marriage counselor summarizing that my wife just doesn't have any emotional trust, that my wife can't be vulnerable with me and won't be without that trust. While on vacation back in our home state, she did indicate that she hoped that we could work this out and even thanked me for the kindness I was showing to her (her sisters are in rough relationships and she was contrasting me to their spouses).
Early August, discover huge volume of texting between wife and family friend's husband, ie., hours per day. We're still in counseling. 2x in one week, we have appointments and both time we talk about this "friendship". Day after second appointment, discover I love you text to him along with another text expressing that she cant wait to take showers with him after their runs. I immediately confront both of them, very tumultuous evening at home as I try to explain to kids what's happening. Understand now that what she explained in those 2 sessions was just a lie. Both claim to have just developed feelings for each other. HIs wife is battling alcoholism and between me and her, they started leaning on each other very heavily as they confided in each other about the state of their marriages. Odd thing is that the week before I found these two texts to him, she was actively assisting him with finding treatment centers for his wife and understanding what their insurance would cover. Concurrently, she is telling me through March, April into July and August that she's hoping they repair their marriage. In fact, a week before finding the texts, we were both visiting him the night before his wife left for a treatment center intake session and my wife would later remark two different times how excited and happy he was when explaining how he came home from work the night before and his wife had not been drinking (and he was).
She went no contact and notified several of her friends about an inappropriate relationship. I believe that her father and his wife knows and perhaps one of her sisters. Recently, there has been some low-level contact with him that I know of as their children and our visit each other's households on a daily basis. I think there's more, but it's through email and hidden. I did see an email exchange where she indicated that she would like updates on their family and he replied wanting the same and after having asked my wife when it was safe to email my wife explained any time and that she would handle whatever problem I had with it with me.
She has been writing a lot, including a letter to me indicating that she doesn't want to married to me and that I should continue changing to ensure that I am a good father to our children. I have seen some of her writing wherein she expresses a lot of hurt and frustration that she has to give up some a great friendship with him and for wrecking the relationship between our families (families were very close with similar-aged children, family outings, and camping trips together). She's angry that while she's losing some of her friends due to this relationship, he doesn't seem to be.
Currently, my wife has zero interest in working on the marriage. Period. She has indicated that she would like to work a divorce through a mediator and has explained that her resentment toward me grows as I resist the divorce and she feels that I will force a very difficult and adversarial divorce process. She has explained that she has suffered too long in this marriage and wants the chance to be happy by herself or with someone else. She describes our relationship, in part, as abusive, but also that she has felt unsafe and uncared for.
She has said that she sees the changes I am making, but recognizes this as yet another one of my cycles wherein after she expresses frustration with the marriage or the want to separate I turn my act around until...and then revert to similar behavioral patterns. She firmly believes that she cannot trust that the changes I am making can be or will be lasting and will not put herself into a vulnerable position to be hurt again.
This past weekend, we talked again about mediation. She asked, for the first time, why I was resisting mediation and divorce. I shared several different reasons. She and I both have divorced parents, though very different experiences. Whereas my father became highly introverted and didn't even date much, my mom remarried a physically and abusive alcoholic who just wrecked my mom, bother, and I for 15 years. My wife, otoh, her mother and father remained very cordial seeing one another at family events and interacting positively. They both went on to marry others and have successful relationships. I simply explained that I want a different marriage with her that is loving, joyful, intimate, and caring and that I think what's best for our children is having two loving parents in a loving, intimate marriage. She can't get herself on board with that.
My wife's emotional affair is a result of me leaving a huge, gaping emotional hole open and she intentionally allowed another man to fill it. She also believes that I could never forgive her for that which is another reason not to try to repair the marriage. Further, she has expressed, in moments of anger or emotional stress, that my resistance to divorce just means that I am holding her hostage.
I truly do love my wife. I am working on myself and making permanent changes (though, I could always have a relapse, I am far more conscious and present with my emotions). This live-in separation is a killer.
There are so many other details and bits and pieces, but I think I have exhausted myself typing this much out at this moment.
I would love some insight, advice, tough love, etc. I have broken my marriage, but while my wife is ready to divorce, I am not.
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Hi Det,
There are some relatively blameless people here. I’m not one of them. I’m sorry you’re here. Owning mistakes is a great first step towards doing better in the future. It sounds like you’ve decided anger and depression don’t suit you, and maybe are ready to make permanent changes.
1. The timeline is unclear. What year did you get together.. and get married? When did the anger and depression begin? Were there good periods before things became rocky in 2009?
2. I didn’t see the below in your story. When and how often did she threaten to leave? What did you try to make permanent changes? Why do you feel they didn’t stick?
She has said that she sees the changes I am making, but recognizes this as yet another one of my cycles wherein after she expresses frustration with the marriage or the want to separate I turn my act around until...and then revert to similar behavioral patterns
3. When you relate this story, are you or her OM as more likely to verbally abuse your kids? I get you never physically abuse your kids, despite a physically abusive parental figure.
She asked, for the first time, why I was resisting mediation and divorce. I shared several different reasons.. my mom remarried a physically and abusive alcoholic who just wrecked my mom, bother, and I for 15 years.
Married in 2003. First started dating in 1998; lived together in 1999; she bought a house and we're not together 2000-2001; reconnected in 2002; married 2003.
Anger present through adolescent year and into adulthood. Likely depressed throughout entire marriage and possibly even before, just manifested itself as anger. Got some anger management training and counseling and shifted from anger to isolation and withdrawing, not being present and catastrophizing low-level things.
She wanted to divorce in 2010; asked me to leave a few times between then and now, but I wouldn't give up in the marriage.
I sought individual counseling with a social worker. Did that consistently in 2010 and 2011 and that's when wife recommitted to the marriage. I would then back off IC, relapse into my behavior pattern and then restart counseling, get better, stop going. Wash, rinse, repeat. I would think I was good and stop going, but inevitably relapse.
I suppose that she would think I am more likely to verbally abuse our children.
2003 married. Got together in 1998 and 1999, lived together in 2000, but wife not happy and moved out to buy her own home. Back together in 2001-2002.
There were really good times and really bad times. It's been a tough marriage for her given my behaviors even before 2009.
Anger present since teen years. Learned recently that likely the anger was an expression of depression. The depression manifesting itself as anger and recently as isolation and withdrawal.
She wanted a divorce in 2010, but recommitted once I started doing IC and was making rapid improvements. Between 2010 and now there have been at least three instances where she indicated she wasn't happy and wanted to separate.
I tried IC and anger management work to deal with me. Steady attendance early on but as I progressed would go longer between appointments until I would stop going thinking I'm fine, but would then revert to angry outbursts and then passive aggressive withdrawal and isolation. I mean, I'd lose my [censored] and then mentally kill myself and then believe why would anyone want me around and so would isolate and withdraw.
Crushes me to say, she likely believes that I am more likely than the OM to verbally abuse our children.
DD, have you sought out help for the anger issues? Sounds like it's been a serious problem for a long time, do try to get into counseling for that, it's not something you can fix on your own. She's been living with it a long time and is done with it now. All you can do is step back and give her time and space while you work on your issues. At first she will think you're just doing it as tricks to get her back so it's important to be consistent over a long period of time. One of our long-time posters here used to say 180's + time = change she can believe in. Please understand there are no quick fixes, you've got to have a lot of patience.
Don't fight her on the D. If she's set on proceeding then let her. Don't do any of the work herself, your attitude should be "this isn't what I want but I understand it's what you want and I will not stand in your way." Don't do the work yourself but if she needs anything from you then provide it in a timely manner. If she wants to meet with a mediator then do so.
DD, have you sought out help for the anger issues? Sounds like it's been a serious problem for a long time, do try to get into counseling for that, it's not something you can fix on your own.
I have. Started several years ago with IC and then injected a specific anger management therapist. I was doing great and stopped attending because I thought, well, I'm doing great. Slowly, I relapsed. Would start up IC again, be doing well, and relapse. Over and over I did that and she rode that roller coaster.
She's been living with it a long time and is done with it now. All you can do is step back and give her time and space while you work on your issues. At first she will think you're just doing it as tricks to get her back so it's important to be consistent over a long period of time. One of our long-time posters here used to say 180's + time = change she can believe in. Please understand there are no quick fixes, you've got to have a lot of patience.
Yeah, I have acknowledged to her that I understand that she's been on this roller coaster, this merry-go-round for years. She's lost hope and doesn't trust that what I have been doing is real and can be long-lasting. Rationally, I hear what she is saying and can understand why she feels and believes that.
Don't fight her on the D. If she's set on proceeding then let her. Don't do any of the work herself, your attitude should be "this isn't what I want but I understand it's what you want and I will not stand in your way." Don't do the work yourself but if she needs anything from you then provide it in a timely manner. If she wants to meet with a mediator then do so.
She hasn't or isn't likely to initiate divorce.
In July at a MC session (before I found her tests to the OM), I explained that I was engaging in radical acceptance that my wife wanted a separation and that she didn't trust the changes I was making. I explained that I simply accepted that if she wanted a divorce, then I knew that she would initiate that. The counselor saw a reaction in my wife and asked about it. My wife explained that she didn't think that was true, that she would initiate a divorce.
Two weekends ago, in the midst of a disagreement about moving furniture around to make room for her to sleep in the office we have, she left the conversation (after I came up with a compromise) only to come back and indicate that she wanted to move forward with a divorce and asked if I was interested in mediation. I again explained that I didn't want a divorce.
I don't think she's going to initiate a divorce.
Hi Det,
There are some relatively blameless people here. I’m not one of them. I’m sorry you’re here. Owning mistakes is a great first step towards doing better in the future. It sounds like you’ve decided anger and depression don’t suit you, and maybe are ready to make permanent changes.
1. The timeline is unclear. What year did you get together.. and get married? When did the anger and depression begin? Were there good periods before things became rocky in 2009?
2. I didn’t see the below in your story. When and how often did she threaten to leave? What did you try to make permanent changes? Why do you feel they didn’t stick?
She has said that she sees the changes I am making, but recognizes this as yet another one of my cycles wherein after she expresses frustration with the marriage or the want to separate I turn my act around until...and then revert to similar behavioral patterns
3. When you relate this story, are you or her OM as more likely to verbally abuse your kids? I get you never physically abuse your kids, despite a physically abusive parental figure.
She asked, for the first time, why I was resisting mediation and divorce. I shared several different reasons.. my mom remarried a physically and abusive alcoholic who just wrecked my mom, bother, and I for 15 years.
I didnt quote you above, so you may not have known that I replied.
Issues: Me - early on and through the first several years of marriage it was anger. Angry outbursts, including road rage, raging at myself for perceived mistakes, physically hitting myself and verbally abusing myself, including suicidal talk, raging at her for perceived slights and mistakes. Raging here meaning yelling and aggressive tone of voice. Last several years the anger has receded (though not completely gone as I would lose patience and temper with my young children, including yelling at them and name-calling), but replaced with what I have recently found out to be depression that led to physical and emotional isolation and withdrawal lasting from a day to several days to several weeks. This manifested itself as not going to bed with my wife, not talking to or saying very little, not going on family activities, including holidays. Also a long history of passive aggressive behaviors, including snooping on her phone/internet and then coming at her sideways rather than talking directly about an issue.
DrDet, you have a huge opportunity here on several 180s that will turn your life (if not your MR) around. As a guy that sounded a lot like you, I can tell you that getting over the anger, the bitterness, and the resentment, and healing yourself can really make your world open up and allow you to reach your full potential. This is not a guarantee that it will save your marriage. Here is the thing, saving your marriage isn't up to you. It takes two to make a marriage, only one to get a divorce. So focus on what you can save: yourself.
Here is my advice as someone that has been through this almost exactly (go read my sitch):
1) Focus on 180ing on all of your poor behavior
2) Get out of MC.....get into (or stay in) IC (If your current IC isn't working out, switch! Do not settle for a mediocre IC)
3) GAL.....like a madman. Every minute you aren't spending with your kids you should be out being busy
4) Detach. You have to let her go to get her back (#3 works with that). She has essentially fired you as her husband, so let her see what it is like to not have you in that capacity anymore
5) STOP TRYING TO CONTROL EVERYTHING. If your angry outbursts, road rage, getting upset at your own mistakes, yelling and aggressiveness, passive-aggressiveness is from the same place mine was, it stems from a need to control everyone and everything. And when that invariably can't happen, then you lash out things, including yourself. LET GO OF CONTROL. You can only control one person in this life....yourself
DrDet, you have a huge opportunity here on several 180s that will turn your life (if not your MR) around. As a guy that sounded a lot like you, I can tell you that getting over the anger, the bitterness, and the resentment, and healing yourself can really make your world open up and allow you to reach your full potential. This is not a guarantee that it will save your marriage. Here is the thing, saving your marriage isn't up to you. It takes two to make a marriage, only one to get a divorce. So focus on what you can save: yourself.
Here is my advice as someone that has been through this almost exactly (go read my sitch):
1) Focus on 180ing on all of your poor behavior
2) Get out of MC.....get into (or stay in) IC (If your current IC isn't working out, switch! Do not settle for a mediocre IC)
3) GAL.....like a madman. Every minute you aren't spending with your kids you should be out being busy
4) Detach. You have to let her go to get her back (#3 works with that). She has essentially fired you as her husband, so let her see what it is like to not have you in that capacity anymore
5) STOP TRYING TO CONTROL EVERYTHING. If your angry outbursts, road rage, getting upset at your own mistakes, yelling and aggressiveness, passive-aggressiveness is from the same place mine was, it stems from a need to control everyone and everything. And when that invariably can't happen, then you lash out things, including yourself. LET GO OF CONTROL. You can only control one person in this life....yourself
Thanks for the encouraging words and advice.
What does 180ing my behavior mean?
We haven't done MC since I discovered the MC.
I'm working on GAL.
Detaching is so hard. I find myself so easily falling into helping her, interacting with her, etc. For example, her car needed to be looked at, so when she asked for a ride home after dropping off the car, I said, of course. And tonight, now that the car is ready, I was more than willing to take care of arranging payment for the work (we do have a joint acct) and give her a ride to pick up the car. When I get home for work, one of her friends is here and I fall into their conversation and when my wife mentioned, oh yeah, we are going to pick up the car, I simply said that your friend is here and we can do it later.
The angry outbursts, road rage...all gone. Over the last year or so, there's been little anger, but I shifted into withdrawing from the family and isolating myself under the pretense that she couldn't love because I couldn't do things like remodeling a home, fixing the car, or wasn't as talented as the OM.
180 means recognizing and stopping all of your toxic and negative behaviors that negatively impacted your MR. 180s are for you. They better you.
You are solid in the friend zone with the car repairs etc. I pulled all of my money from our joint accounts and split our savings down the middle.
I backed off snd stopped doing anything for the sole benefit of my exww. I would suggest you do the same. She fired you as her husband.
180 means recognizing and stopping all of your toxic and negative behaviors that negatively impacted your MR. 180s are for you. They better you.
You are solid in the friend zone with the car repairs etc. I pulled all of my money from our joint accounts and split our savings down the middle.
I backed off snd stopped doing anything for the sole benefit of my exww. I would suggest you do the same. She fired you as her husband.
Yeah, I get it...tonight she was complaining that I am not being a kind friend as she deals with a bad job and looking for a new one. She wants me to fulfill the marriage responsibilities of providing for the household, taking car of car repair stuff, etc., but she wants to be separated.
.tonight she was complaining that I am not being a kind friend as she deals with a bad job and looking for a new one. She wants me to fulfill the marriage responsibilities of providing for the household, taking car of car repair stuff, etc., but she wants to be separated.
How did you respond to her complaints? That's almost as important as your "yes" or "no"!
.tonight she was complaining that I am not being a kind friend as she deals with a bad job and looking for a new one. She wants me to fulfill the marriage responsibilities of providing for the household, taking car of car repair stuff, etc., but she wants to be separated.
How did you respond to her complaints? That's almost as important as your "yes" or "no"!
THIS.
Listen. Validate. Please read and study the validation thread.
.tonight she was complaining that I am not being a kind friend as she deals with a bad job and looking for a new one. She wants me to fulfill the marriage responsibilities of providing for the household, taking car of car repair stuff, etc., but she wants to be separated.
How did you respond to her complaints? That's almost as important as your "yes" or "no"!
THIS.
Listen. Validate. Please read and study the validation thread.
Tonight was simply maddening, though. Had my car at the auto shop that needed to be picked up and she offers to give me a ride...cool. On the way over, I get the, well, we have a moment without the kids and I'd like to talk about mediation. She then goes down the road of starting mediation now so that by next summer we can dissolve the marriage and the kids don't have to adjust while they're in school. According to her, we need to keep the kids interests and their stability in mind. I exercised some restraint and didn't tell her that she could have kept that in mind before screwing around with the OM.
I basically just let her talk and didn't reply. She kept on trying to persuade me that mediation was the best approach so that we could avoid the expense of attorneys and avoid a bitter, drawn out divorce fight...unless, she says, that is what I want.
I reiterated, again, that I want neither mediation or a divorce. That I'm not going to divorce her right now and would prefer remaining married. So she took me down the road asking why I would want this marriage (this being our crappy marriage where I had anger problems and would isolate and withdraw). I explained I wanted a different marriage and she banged me with, well, why, why do you want to stay married to me. She further went to say that, well, thats right, you wouldn't want to divorce me because I haven't abused you for years as you did to me (she characterizes my anger problems and withdrawing as forms of abuse). I suggest that we both have unresolved resentment and have both done some ****ty things.
Here's the real kicker...As she was talking about wanting to move on with mediation, she said that she wanted a chance to be happy with someone who wants her as a companion. I took a few moments and let her go on before telling her that I want to be and would be that companion. She smirked and sniffed and told me that that's not what I have been showing her recently because while she's been in crisis mode about her job, finding a new job and having panic attacks, I haven't been a kind friend. When I told her that I know her job has been ****ty and she responded that yeah, I knew, but that I wasn't doing anything about it. I finally had it at that moment. I told her that she's the one who wants to be separated, she's the one who keeps pushing and pushing to divorce and that for my well-being I was detaching to protect myself. Of course, her reply now is well, why wait to divorce, why not end it since we're both detaching. **** her. That was bull****, man.
Somewhere in this conversation she asked if I wanted her to find a mediator or if we should find one together. I told her that this is her thing and if she wants to pursue then move and at some point I'll have to become a participant, until then, I'm not initiating a divorce.
For our entire relationship I was the giving her the pep talks, encouraging her, supporting her and she was grateful for that. Now, because I am 180'ing her she's complaining that I'm not someone she can ask for help or for support since I'm detaching. Well, tough ****, this is what separation looks like.
It's funny, though, her implication being that recently I haven't been showing her that I care or would be a companion because I haven't been offering her a shoulder to cry on or coddling her as she's sitting at the dining room table crying while my boys and I are playing a game in the living room or offering her support when she's having a panic attack after spending all evening crying in front of me and boys. I'm not going to emotionally invest myself just so she can turn it on me the next day with another demand that I start divorce proceedings and telling that she wants to move forward with dissolving the marriage
.tonight she was complaining that I am not being a kind friend as she deals with a bad job and looking for a new one. She wants me to fulfill the marriage responsibilities of providing for the household, taking car of car repair stuff, etc., but she wants to be separated.
How did you respond to her complaints? That's almost as important as your "yes" or "no"!
As posted above, I didn't really respond to her complaints per se.
I did tell her that I wanted to her companion but that she was choosing a different path.
I also explained that I was detaching to protect myself and my well-being as a way to explain why I was not initiating conversations or responding extensively when she drops her comments about her being upset that she has to give up being a part time sahm because of what's happening to us. I also told her that her continued and repeated attempts to get the divorce going tells me that she doesn't want my support and that her doing the live in separation also suggests that she doesn't want me to be supportive.
I also contrasted that with my behavior immediately following her telling me she wanted a separation up to the time I found out about the OM wherein I initiated conversations, validated her thoughts and feelings, expressed concern and support.
I am trying to 180 this situation and it's hard. It's not intuitive and my codependency is like a wall to 180ing.
.tonight she was complaining that I am not being a kind friend as she deals with a bad job and looking for a new one. She wants me to fulfill the marriage responsibilities of providing for the household, taking car of car repair stuff, etc., but she wants to be separated.
How did you respond to her complaints? That's almost as important as your "yes" or "no"!
THIS.
Listen. Validate. Please read and study the validation thread.
Tonight was simply maddening, though. Had my car at the auto shop that needed to be picked up and she offers to give me a ride...cool. On the way over, I get the, well, we have a moment without the kids and I'd like to talk about mediation. She then goes down the road of starting mediation now so that by next summer we can dissolve the marriage and the kids don't have to adjust while they're in school. According to her, we need to keep the kids interests and their stability in mind. I exercised some restraint and didn't tell her that she could have kept that in mind before screwing around with the OM.
I basically just let her talk and didn't reply. She kept on trying to persuade me that mediation was the best approach so that we could avoid the expense of attorneys and avoid a bitter, drawn out divorce fight...unless, she says, that is what I want.
I reiterated, again, that I want neither mediation or a divorce. That I'm not going to divorce her right now and would prefer remaining married. So she took me down the road asking why I would want this marriage (this being our crappy marriage where I had anger problems and would isolate and withdraw). I explained I wanted a different marriage and she banged me with, well, why, why do you want to stay married to me. She further went to say that, well, thats right, you wouldn't want to divorce me because I haven't abused you for years as you did to me (she characterizes my anger problems and withdrawing as forms of abuse). I suggest that we both have unresolved resentment and have both done some ****ty things.
Here's the real kicker...As she was talking about wanting to move on with mediation, she said that she wanted a chance to be happy with someone who wants her as a companion. I took a few moments and let her go on before telling her that I want to be and would be that companion. She smirked and sniffed and told me that that's not what I have been showing her recently because while she's been in crisis mode about her job, finding a new job and having panic attacks, I haven't been a kind friend. When I told her that I know her job has been ****ty and she responded that yeah, I knew, but that I wasn't doing anything about it. I finally had it at that moment. I told her that she's the one who wants to be separated, she's the one who keeps pushing and pushing to divorce and that for my well-being I was detaching to protect myself. Of course, her reply now is well, why wait to divorce, why not end it since we're both detaching. **** her. That was bull****, man.
Somewhere in this conversation she asked if I wanted her to find a mediator or if we should find one together. I told her that this is her thing and if she wants to pursue then move and at some point I'll have to become a participant, until then, I'm not initiating a divorce.
For our entire relationship I was the giving her the pep talks, encouraging her, supporting her and she was grateful for that. Now, because I am 180'ing her she's complaining that I'm not someone she can ask for help or for support since I'm detaching. Well, tough ****, this is what separation looks like.
It's funny, though, her implication being that recently I haven't been showing her that I care or would be a companion because I haven't been offering her a shoulder to cry on or coddling her as she's sitting at the dining room table crying while my boys and I are playing a game in the living room or offering her support when she's having a panic attack after spending all evening crying in front of me and boys. I'm not going to emotionally invest myself just so she can turn it on me the next day with another demand that I start divorce proceedings and telling that she wants to move forward with dissolving the marriage
Not sure how your responses were listening and validating....................
Well, remember some DB basics DD. Avoid MR talks, validate feelings and believe nothing that they say...
Keep detaching. Keep DB
Stay strong there man.
[quote=Steve85][quote=CWarrior][quote="DrDet"]According to her, we need to keep the kids interests and their stability in mind. I exercised some restraint and didn't tell her that she could have kept that in mind before screwing around with the OM. I basically just let her talk and didn't reply.
Oof. The goal is to LISTEN and VALIDATE. Not attacking is a good start I suppose.
She further went to say that, well, thats right, you wouldn't want to divorce me because I haven't abused you for years as you did to me (she characterizes my anger problems and withdrawing as forms of abuse). I suggest that we both have unresolved resentment and have both done some ****ty things.
DrDet, this sounds like a KEY moment. She's expressing her frustration with her relationship with you. This is precisely where hearing where she's coming from and drawing her feelings out could make a difference.
"Wow, my verbal abuse has really wounded you."
"Wow, you feel my yelling and name-calling rose to the level of verbal abuse."
re: "She characterizes my anger problems [yelling at your kids and name-calling your kids] and withdrawing as forms of abuse"--you wouldn't consider that verbal and/or emotional abuse?
When I told her that I know her job has been ****ty
Yay! THAT is showing that you listened. Good job. I mean it.
I finally had it at that moment. I told her that she's the one who wants to be separated, she's the one who keeps pushing and pushing to divorce..
This is a good moment to discuss with your IC--the moment you lost your self-control. We all have limits. Anger management should include what to do in those moments, e.g., taking a 5-minute walk.
It's funny, though, her implication being that recently I haven't been showing her that I care or would be a companion because I haven't been offering her a shoulder to cry on or coddling her as she's sitting at the dining room table crying while my boys and I are playing a game or offering her support when she's having a panic attack after spending all evening crying in front of me and boys.
Wow--I wonder what your boys were thinking/feeling, watching their mom cry to panic attack levels as you engaged them with games. Which raises another point--your relationship with them is worth considering. Often separations and divorces can damage relationships with the kids.
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She further went to say that, well, thats right, you wouldn't want to divorce me because I haven't abused you for years as you did to me (she characterizes my anger problems and withdrawing as forms of abuse). I suggest that we both have unresolved resentment and have both done some ****ty things.
DrDet, this sounds like a KEY moment. She's expressing her frustration with her relationship with you. This is precisely where hearing where she's coming from and drawing her feelings out could make a difference.
re: "She characterizes my anger problems [yelling at your kids and name-calling your kids] and withdrawing as forms of abuse"--you wouldn't consider that a reasonable interpretationn.
I did tell her I understood that her perceiving it as abuse was reasonable and appropriate. I also acknowledged that what she feels and believes is true to her,it's what she feels and believes.
Wow--I wonder what your boys were thinking/feeling, watching their mom cry to panic attack levels as you engaged them with games. Which raises another point--your relationship with them is worth considering. Often separations and divorces can damage relationships with the kids.
You know, I'm getting advice to 180 her and I also firmly believe that she doesn't want me to show her care. She wants to divorce me and get away from me. Why the hell would she want me to show her caring? How do I maintain my dignity by showing care to someone who is experiencing pain as a result of her cheating on me and wanting to end the marriage?
Or am I being a thick headed dolt here?
Well, remember some DB basics DD. Avoid MR talks, validate feelings and believe nothing that they say...
Keep detaching. Keep DB
Stay strong there man.
What does detaching look like in practice?
Wow--I wonder what your boys were thinking/feeling, watching their mom cry to panic attack levels as you engaged them with games. Which raises another point--your relationship with them is worth considering. Often separations and divorces can damage relationships with the kids.
I could be wrong but it sounded like to me she was trying to claim the victim role to get him back "coddling" her. I suspect the kids have seen this behavior before.
That's what I keep thinking as well, ie manipulation. Both via the crying in front of us, then last night with the bit about me not showing her that I care
That's what I keep thinking as well, ie manipulation. Both via the crying in front of us, then last night with the bit about me not showing her that I care
I deleted my post because I wanted to be more positive. I was like this before I got on medication. For me it was a combination of extreme codependency and an inability to calm myself down.
Well, remember some DB basics DD. Avoid MR talks, validate feelings and believe nothing that they say...
Keep detaching. Keep DB
Stay strong there man.
What does detaching look like in practice?
Is to be free, to feel that freedom and live that freedom. And you let her go, no expectations whatsoever. Keep hope, keep DB.
Detaching from Cadet’s welcome post.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414
Well, found out that my wife was taking a day off of work to, in her words, work on her resume and apply for more jobs, but to also meet the OM for a picnic lunch and her explanation was that she wanted his advice on her resume. I'm a 20-year HR guy and she has plenty of friends and family in her field. Led to a very long conversation, but the end point is still that she's done.
I blew up the planned lunch meeting. Texted the OMs wife (The OMs family and ours were very close, kids still hang out and play, and I am in touch with his wife), though she replied the next morning that she'd talk to him that evening, wtf? Ultimately, the wife sent me several angry texts and they didn't meet.
Anyway, that long conversation after I confronted her about the lunch date...I went on to tell her I wasn't financing her affair any longer. I explained that we wouldn't be doing the live in separation while she continued her affair. She tried wriggle by saying they weren't (and then later on saying that they were) in some sort of regular contact. She then asked if I was interested in divorcing and I said yes, she asked if I was interested in mediation and I said, of course. She was surprised by this response. I laid out a very clear path that we get this done sooner rather than later and that I would not be financing her and her affair through next summer so, in her words, the boys could adjust to the new living arrangement. Which in her mind was us keeping the house and us rotating, ie, one of us living here while the other lived in a second residence. I simply said, no, that's not going to work for me.
She repeatedly said that the affair wouldn't have happened if I didn't leave her feeling lonely by withdrawing and isolating myself. She explained that she's out of tries and out of hope. She tried so hard for years and years and years. I responded by saying that I'm not rejecting her perception, but that I didn't agree with her perspective that our marriage simply bad every year. But that's her truth.
She's very upset (crying) that she's in a position where she has no retirement and no income to support herself or herself and the kids. She kept remarking about how I'm the one with the career, I bought the house, and she can't support herself. That she ****ed herself by choosing to be a sahm, a decision we both made. She asked whether there's a possibility that we could move back to our home state so that the kids could grow up around her family. I said, sure, as a family we would, otherwise, why am I moving back? She raised the point that, right, I'd give her what she wanted so long as we stayed married, ie., she played the you're holding me hostage card.
This was not a conversation that we should have had, but I was weak and had it anyway. I was painful to hear her again tell me that I didn't step up and didn't show up in the marriage leaving her hanging and alone; that my past behaviors were abusive; and that I chose to remain angry or chose to withdraw and isolate rather than choose her and the family. I see why she thinks that. I also explained that I wasn't intentionally trying to just be the angry guy or to show her I didn't care by withdrawing. I was ****ing depressed and was in denial. I thought I was getting better only to fall back on my same behaviors. But she really believes (and I get it) that I wasn't willing to change or to work on me.
But what got her really fired up was when she asked what I was thinking about post-divorce living arrangements and I flatly said that I'm planning on keeping the house and joint 50-50 custody and parenting time. Wow...she was basically hyperventilating. She got up from the table and walked away saying, so, you get to keep the house and the boys and I lose, that I have to remain married to you so I don't end up in a one bedroom apartment. I tried at this moment to quiet things down, slow things down by reminding her to just breath, to slow down, we're not there, yet. Didn't work. Sarcastically she said good night hubby before turning around and jumping on me with her legs wrapped around smacking kisses on the head saying, see happy wife. You get to stay married.
Part of me wants to expose this to her immediate family. I think that maybe she's still in the affair fog and exposure might snap her out of it. But it feels also like it would be vindictive and would lead to more acrimony.
Nonetheless, I am no longer resisting mediation and agreed to attend along with some parenting classes that are required.
I seriously doubt that by exposing the affair, etc. to her immediate family will snap her out of it. Be careful...blood is thicker than water when it comes to families and their wayward/MLC family members. Best to leave this alone.
Keep the focus on you and what your goals are in respect to your home and children.
Hi Det,
There’s nothing weak about deciding a relationship isn’t for you and moving on. The only reason this may read as a tragedy is you said all this when you were feeling upset. Often when we’re upset we say things we wouldn’t on another day, and what we say has long-term consequences. If you’re still on-board in a week, no tragedy.
“Required parenting classes” — Sounds wise to do any required parenting classes. Good anger management techniques could help make and keep unsupervised 50/50 custody a reality.
Financially, in the USA courts will ensure your wife gets adequate alimony and child support to survive and probably do better than she fears just now. That will all become clearer in time.