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You hanging in there?
Hey Steve,

just wanted to drop in and tell you that I've been keeping up with your updates. Sorry to hear everything, but you know what to do. It's just hard as hell to do it in your own sitch! Ha, I know all about that!

Me and my dog have gotten out twice in the last week and have shots a fair amount of birds. Fall is here and I know you are probably looking forward to that as well.
Hope things are going well, Steve. You've been a big help to me and many others here. If anyone knows how to DB, it's you. Good luck, brother...
Steve, what's the latest?
Hey Steve. We are all rooting for you.
Hey everyone, sorry for the delay. Been really busy the last week and a half. Have had a chance to pop in and read a little but not to respond. Been GAL like a madman. Never really lapsed on that too much, but have had lots of opportunities to do so recently (it is that time of year), and I think they all came at a perfect time. W continues to be an open-book, she is fully transparent. Everything is unlocked and I know all her passwords, etc.

Our relationship, believe it or not, was really good prior to the last hiccup. It is even better now. I know that not every LBS that comes here is at fault for their sitch, but I know that my behavior played a large role, maybe 75% or more, of what occurred in my marriage. In fact, I saw a newbie post the other day that reminded me so much of where I was a 2 years ago. If you are a bitter, resentful, angry person that is miserable and makes everyone around you miserable too, then you have a lot of power in your hands to turn your life, and potentially your MR, around.
Thanks Steve glad to hear things are going well. Keep it up mate!
Hey Steve, glad to hear things are looking up.. keep up the good work!
Originally Posted by Steve85
Hey everyone, sorry for the delay. Been really busy the last week and a half. Have had a chance to pop in and read a little but not to respond. Been GAL like a madman. Never really lapsed on that too much, but have had lots of opportunities to do so recently (it is that time of year), and I think they all came at a perfect time. W continues to be an open-book, she is fully transparent. Everything is unlocked and I know all her passwords, etc.

Our relationship, believe it or not, was really good prior to the last hiccup. It is even better now. I know that not every LBS that comes here is at fault for their sitch, but I know that my behavior played a large role, maybe 75% or more, of what occurred in my marriage. In fact, I saw a newbie post the other day that reminded me so much of where I was a 2 years ago. If you are a bitter, resentful, angry person that is miserable and makes everyone around you miserable too, then you have a lot of power in your hands to turn your life, and potentially your MR, around.



Glad to hear things are going well, Steve. Happy for you!

While I am happy this was nothing but a speed bump, you should probably look into whether you did anything to contribute to the speed bump. There was obviously discontentment on her side that led to this. Of course, it is likely there was nothing you could have done and it was her issue to fix but if there was and if you can understand why and fix it, it can likely prevent a relapse in the future.
Sending hugs for you, W and D.

(((Stevie)))
Thanks everyone. Thanks neffer.

I am in a weird space now. I am not anxious, scared or anything. I just am doing my thing, doing my GAL activities and am okay with whatever occurs moving forward. Life will go on. Que sera sera. I have implicit trust in God that whatever will happen will work for the good.

I feel like I have become so good at detachment that I am almost disconnecting. And while I think that should concern me, it does not.

I woke up from a dream last night where she admitted (in the dream) to still contacting this last guy, and that she was engaging with him in an inappropriate way. I asked if she was in love with him, and she said she was. I asked if she wanted to leave for him, and she wouldn't answer. When I woke up from that I had trouble going back to sleep, not because I was upset, but because I wasn't upset. I started to explore why I was not upset and realized that I have reach a point, after nearly 2 years, where I am at point of not being sure of what I want. And it has a side-effect of the que sera sera attitude that I am feeling.

The good news is that in the past this would have caused me to revert on my 180s. I have matured beyond that, so I still have my changes instilled in me.

I think one of the other reasons for all of this is that for the last nearly 2 years where I have DB'd my tail off, my W is still not the girl I married. She has changed, and while some of that might be typical as we age, I just feel like some of it is the result of the past harm I have caused. She is not as affectionate as she used to be, she is much more solitary and independent, and she is more blunt and forthcoming with how she really feels about things (I could give examples but I think that captures it) where before she was much more conscious of how it might impact others' feelings.

In general, I guess while things are good, the last speedbump was a wake up reminder that all of this is still precarious and to make sure I am detached, that I am GAL, and that my 180s are truly who I am and not just to effect an outcome.

So that is where we are. Kind of an internal war with myself. I think part of it is what I've talked about in the past, where things were so bad for so long prior to the BD in Dec 2017 that I am looking back and wondering if I even want to keep trying. That there is more out there that is more fulfilling. That there is someone that will be more fitting to what I want and need rather than settling for what she is capable or willing to give. Or maybe I am just tired and want an end. Maybe marriage is too much work and I am not willing to do that work. Regardless, I know I am going to be ok no matter what!
Now itīs my turn to say: willingness. One of your first answers to my sitch was that. It was good advice then, and it is always good advice.

Time, patience.

Willingness
Originally Posted by Steve85
Thanks everyone. Thanks neffer.

I am in a weird space now. I am not anxious, scared or anything. I just am doing my thing, doing my GAL activities and am okay with whatever occurs moving forward. Life will go on. Que sera sera. I have implicit trust in God that whatever will happen will work for the good.

I feel like I have become so good at detachment that I am almost disconnecting. And while I think that should concern me, it does not.

I woke up from a dream last night where she admitted (in the dream) to still contacting this last guy, and that she was engaging with him in an inappropriate way. I asked if she was in love with him, and she said she was. I asked if she wanted to leave for him, and she wouldn't answer. When I woke up from that I had trouble going back to sleep, not because I was upset, but because I wasn't upset. I started to explore why I was not upset and realized that I have reach a point, after nearly 2 years, where I am at point of not being sure of what I want. And it has a side-effect of the que sera sera attitude that I am feeling.

The good news is that in the past this would have caused me to revert on my 180s. I have matured beyond that, so I still have my changes instilled in me.

I think one of the other reasons for all of this is that for the last nearly 2 years where I have DB'd my tail off, my W is still not the girl I married. She has changed, and while some of that might be typical as we age, I just feel like some of it is the result of the past harm I have caused. She is not as affectionate as she used to be, she is much more solitary and independent, and she is more blunt and forthcoming with how she really feels about things (I could give examples but I think that captures it) where before she was much more conscious of how it might impact others' feelings.

In general, I guess while things are good, the last speedbump was a wake up reminder that all of this is still precarious and to make sure I am detached, that I am GAL, and that my 180s are truly who I am and not just to effect an outcome.

So that is where we are. Kind of an internal war with myself. I think part of it is what I've talked about in the past, where things were so bad for so long prior to the BD in Dec 2017 that I am looking back and wondering if I even want to keep trying. That there is more out there that is more fulfilling. That there is someone that will be more fitting to what I want and need rather than settling for what she is capable or willing to give. Or maybe I am just tired and want an end. Maybe marriage is too much work and I am not willing to do that work. Regardless, I know I am going to be ok no matter what!


Steve,
I don't have any answers but I can provide some insight of some problems I see having the benefit of looking at this from the outside without emotions involved. Again, these are my opinions and I could be wrong, but I am listing them in the hope they may be useful to you

1. Attraction: I feel that your wife is not attracted to you. Find what is missing and work on getting the attraction back in your marriage. I understand you are probably aware of this, but based on your sitch you are not taking the right actions to re-attract her back. Give this some thought and see what you need to do different.

2. Stop expecting your W to become the girl you married. Accept her for the person she is today or talk to her about what needs to change. The change should not require her to become who she was earlier just the person you want her to be in the future.

3. You are clearly not happy in your marriage. I feel that you are standing because you value the institution of marriage and that may be leading to subconscious resentment in your DB efforts. Adopt a mindset that you are willing to walk away from the marriage (note that this is different from actually walking away). I think this will not only help you but also help re-trigger attraction in your W
Originally Posted by neffer
Now itīs my turn to say: willingness. One of your first answers to my sitch was that. It was good advice then, and it is always good advice.

Time, patience.

Willingness


I hate when people use me back on me! LOL

Seriously though, willingness is an outcome of patience. Something I used to be very short on, and something that I constantly need to check myself for.
Originally Posted by MLCxH
Originally Posted by Steve85
Thanks everyone. Thanks neffer.

I am in a weird space now. I am not anxious, scared or anything. I just am doing my thing, doing my GAL activities and am okay with whatever occurs moving forward. Life will go on. Que sera sera. I have implicit trust in God that whatever will happen will work for the good.

I feel like I have become so good at detachment that I am almost disconnecting. And while I think that should concern me, it does not.

I woke up from a dream last night where she admitted (in the dream) to still contacting this last guy, and that she was engaging with him in an inappropriate way. I asked if she was in love with him, and she said she was. I asked if she wanted to leave for him, and she wouldn't answer. When I woke up from that I had trouble going back to sleep, not because I was upset, but because I wasn't upset. I started to explore why I was not upset and realized that I have reach a point, after nearly 2 years, where I am at point of not being sure of what I want. And it has a side-effect of the que sera sera attitude that I am feeling.

The good news is that in the past this would have caused me to revert on my 180s. I have matured beyond that, so I still have my changes instilled in me.

I think one of the other reasons for all of this is that for the last nearly 2 years where I have DB'd my tail off, my W is still not the girl I married. She has changed, and while some of that might be typical as we age, I just feel like some of it is the result of the past harm I have caused. She is not as affectionate as she used to be, she is much more solitary and independent, and she is more blunt and forthcoming with how she really feels about things (I could give examples but I think that captures it) where before she was much more conscious of how it might impact others' feelings.

In general, I guess while things are good, the last speedbump was a wake up reminder that all of this is still precarious and to make sure I am detached, that I am GAL, and that my 180s are truly who I am and not just to effect an outcome.

So that is where we are. Kind of an internal war with myself. I think part of it is what I've talked about in the past, where things were so bad for so long prior to the BD in Dec 2017 that I am looking back and wondering if I even want to keep trying. That there is more out there that is more fulfilling. That there is someone that will be more fitting to what I want and need rather than settling for what she is capable or willing to give. Or maybe I am just tired and want an end. Maybe marriage is too much work and I am not willing to do that work. Regardless, I know I am going to be ok no matter what!


Steve,
I don't have any answers but I can provide some insight of some problems I see having the benefit of looking at this from the outside without emotions involved. Again, these are my opinions and I could be wrong, but I am listing them in the hope they may be useful to you

1. Attraction: I feel that your wife is not attracted to you. Find what is missing and work on getting the attraction back in your marriage. I understand you are probably aware of this, but based on your sitch you are not taking the right actions to re-attract her back. Give this some thought and see what you need to do different.

2. Stop expecting your W to become the girl you married. Accept her for the person she is today or talk to her about what needs to change. The change should not require her to become who she was earlier just the person you want her to be in the future.

3. You are clearly not happy in your marriage. I feel that you are standing because you value the institution of marriage and that may be leading to subconscious resentment in your DB efforts. Adopt a mindset that you are willing to walk away from the marriage (note that this is different from actually walking away). I think this will not only help you but also help re-trigger attraction in your W


1. Probably not far off. As I said, I think a lot of this stems from my past, poor behavior. And while great strides have been made here, and there is evidence that it has turned around at least some, I think this may be true. I know we say around here a lot that attraction for wives follows respect. She is insistent that she highly respects me. But I think that past hurts made her lose the romantic "He would never hurt me" view that she had for the "perfect" husband. And while she is thrilled (her own words) with what I have been like the last 22 months, I think there is still a bit of mistrust there that holds her back. I have done quite a bit to re-attract her, but I think it is probably unrealistic to think that 22 months can erase nearly 19 (even 20 counting our last year of dating) of passive-aggressive, covert contracts. I would be open to any thoughts you might have as to how to amp this up even more than I have.

2. Good advice. I do think that there was an element of hoping that DBing, that being a better spouse, that 180ing on some very poor, destructive behavior, would engender her to change back to being more like the girl I married. Sometimes the feelings of the heart have a tough time receiving the logic from the brain. And I think this was the case here. My head was saying "Listen to sandi! The girl you married is gone." But my heart was longing for that girl that thought I walked on water. The truth is that if we have any chance of a future I do have accept her for the woman she is now. I do disagree with talking to her about what needs to change though. I think I need to keep this all in the mind sight of controlling myself. Can I live the rest of my life with this new person she has become? Or do I need to let her go to be whomever she feels she needs to be, and move with my own life? It is a big question. And one that I need to take time and wrestle with, but not trying to control or change her in the process.

3. I think you are right with your first statement to a point. I am 90% happy with my marriage. But the 10% raises its ugly head from time-to-time. I do value the institution of marriage. Otherwise I would have bolted a long time ago. But I am not sure about the characterization that I am subconsciously resentful in my DB efforts. I say that because about 3 months in I realized that DBing was for me. Even if I was single I would need to be detached (not letting things out of my control decide if I am happy or not), GAL (go out and do new things, engage in things I enjoy), and 180 (engage in constant self-improvement,never settling for where I am at in my development). And I believe truly that I am willing to walk away from my marriage. While it isn't what I want, what I need to do is to decide what I WANT, that was the point of my update/diatribe earlier. I need to figure that out (I have a plan I think I am going to hire a life-coach), and the decide if she, as who she is today, fits into that desire or not. And then act accordingly.

Thanks MLC for your insight as always! I appreciate it greatly.
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I woke up from a dream last night where she admitted (in the dream) to still contacting this last guy, and that she was engaging with him in an inappropriate way. I asked if she was in love with him, and she said she was. I asked if she wanted to leave for him, and she wouldn't answer. When I woke up from that I had trouble going back to sleep, not because I was upset, but because I wasn't upset. I started to explore why I was not upset and realized that I have reach a point, after nearly 2 years, where I am at point of not being sure of what I want. And it has a side-effect of the que sera sera attitude that I am feeling.


That's interesting. I had a similar dream (that W was actually amorously smitten, in love with, the OM, and that i witnessed a tender moment between them). Unlike you, this was very early in my journey and i was NOT so sanguine about it-- at that point it represented what would have been a definite escalation in my W's interactions with OM and I had also not yet reached any kind of level of detachment--- this was maybe two months into the whole thing. Funny thing was, their relationship had escalated, as i would soon come to find out, and I would also, at that point, begin my long journey to 180/GAL/improve myself and detach myself. I relate this because, to me, this is a very clear sign that you have the detachment you need to 1) be healthy for yourself and 2) be AMOAFWL and the best husband possible for your w. Dreams, prescient or not, can reveal important information about both ourselves and those around us and our relationships with them.

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I think one of the other reasons for all of this is that for the last nearly 2 years where I have DB'd my tail off, my W is still not the girl I married. She has changed, and while some of that might be typical as we age, I just feel like some of it is the result of the past harm I have caused. She is not as affectionate as she used to be, she is much more solitary and independent, and she is more blunt and forthcoming with how she really feels about things (I could give examples but I think that captures it) where before she was much more conscious of how it might impact others' feelings.


People change sometimes. This can particularly be so as we age and our hormonal balance changes, and, as i understand it, can be doubly so for women in the age group of our wives as they undergo menopause. I, too, noticed profound changes in my W during her waywardness. Often reminded me nothing of her old self. Ultimately, there were elements in her personality and makeup-- strong ones-- that prevailed within her and helped bring her back (and largely, as i have posted before, due to a divine softening of her heart, and of mine). However, even when she "came back", she was still somewhat changed. Thankfully, she was still someone i wanted to be with and i someone she wanted to be with. But that is something you will have to decide in your own case... as will your wife... Because, at the end of the day, love is not an arrow shot from the string of a little cherub, nor a magical spell cast from on high. True, lasting, love is a choice-- a verb much more than it is a noun-- that I choose to love this person, and everything that they are, all their good and all their "bad". That definition and meaning of "love" is something i did not completely understand prior to my ordeal, but is a revelation that my spiritual journey during that period led me to. In the end, i think that that concept of love--"I choose you"-- is way more romantic, sexy, whatever you want to call it than the others.

I hope and pray that you and your W make that choice, if it is the best one for you and that, if you don't, you find someone that warrants such a choice and who will find you worthy of the same choice in return.
hoos, you make great points. This jumped out at me: "Thankfully, she was still someone i wanted to be with and i someone she wanted to be with."

Obviously I think we all have dealbreakers that would mean if our spouses turned into X then we would walk. And there is the old saying that goes: "Women marry a man hoping he'll change, men marry a woman hoping she won't."

I am actually surprised, just like I was last December, how strong the desire to pull the plug is right now. It has taken me by surprise. I keep hearing the words of one of our vets: "Relax, nothing has changed, take your time and don't do anything rash." I almost suffocated right now when around her in the house. I really need to pray hard. I can see me slipping into a GAL glut. I have been home so little the last few weeks and I think that is my subconscious pushing me further and further away.

I am thankful for this forum as being a safe place to discuss what is going on in my head!

Originally Posted by Steve85

1. Probably not far off. As I said, I think a lot of this stems from my past, poor behavior. And while great strides have been made here, and there is evidence that it has turned around at least some, I think this may be true. I know we say around here a lot that attraction for wives follows respect. She is insistent that she highly respects me. But I think that past hurts made her lose the romantic "He would never hurt me" view that she had for the "perfect" husband. And while she is thrilled (her own words) with what I have been like the last 22 months, I think there is still a bit of mistrust there that holds her back. I have done quite a bit to re-attract her, but I think it is probably unrealistic to think that 22 months can erase nearly 19 (even 20 counting our last year of dating) of passive-aggressive, covert contracts. I would be open to any thoughts you might have as to how to amp this up even more than I have.

.

This actually made me think of something. I understand that it may take her more time to forgive you completely for past hurts but if you want to build attraction, you need to be alpha. This means in your mind you should expect her to accept you for who you are today. If you try to justify her behavior based on your actions 22 months ago, that is beta behavior and will only cause her to lose respect for you. Regardless of your past, you need to act like you are the prize today and mentally act like you expect her to recognize that. Don't make excuses for her. If you can get that mental shift within you, I think that will help. Make sure you don't hurt her today and learn from your past mistakes. Treat her right but expect that she treats you right too based on who you have been recently and not 22 months ago.


Originally Posted by Steve85

2. I do disagree with talking to her about what needs to change though. I think I need to keep this all in the mind sight of controlling myself. Can I live the rest of my life with this new person she has become? Or do I need to let her go to be whomever she feels she needs to be, and move with my own life? It is a big question. And one that I need to take time and wrestle with, but not trying to control or change her in the process.



What I meant is that if there are any deal breakers for you, talk to her before you decide it is not worth standing. If you can accept her for who she is, that is the best case scenario. But if something is important to you and you absolutely need her to change don't assume she won't and walk away. There may be things your wife is willing to change if she knows it is hurting the marriage - and she may decide to change because it makes her a better person and not just because you wanted it. Think about all of the LBS who come here saying "if only I knew what to change sooner, I could have saved my MR". You don't want to be a WAS because you did not communicate to her that something was a deal breaker for you.

Originally Posted by Steve85



Thanks MLC for your insight as always! I appreciate it greatly.


Happy to help! Some of the feedback I have provided is not easy to read with an open mind but I know you are a strong person that can take this the right way. I do believe you can turn this around quickly with a few more small changes.
I did a lot of damage in my marriage over the course of 28 years. Angry, controlling, etc. Turns out it was untreated mental illness but it was too little too late. He was still attracted to me physically (and I him) but the connection wasn't there. I'd get angry about it which of course drove us further apart. I wanted him to be in love with me like I was him but he checked out years ago. I knew it of course. I just kept throwing things at it hoping something, anything would stick. Never happened.

He finally pulled the plug 7 months after I got a job. I suspect he's been planning this for years probably waiting until the kids were older, waiting until we sold the house, waiting until I got a job. He lined his ducks up so very perfectly. After we sold the house I thought "he's going to leave me" and he did. I ignored the feeling to my detriment.

I have no real advice other than to say I've been there. I know that after 18 months if I DB I won't care anymore. I can do anything for 18 months. Heck I'm already at 6 months. Yeah it stinks but this is out of my control.
MLC, thanks, yeah I have been concentrating on being alpha. I've read a lot of books on alpha behavior, on masculinity, etc. I think she sees me as the alpha. I do think we need to be back in to IC individually, and MC. That is coming.

kas, you have a good handle on things, I think you are going to be fine no matter what happens.
Originally Posted by Steve85
I think she sees me as the alpha. .


Alpha is a state of mind and it is about you. If you feel and act alpha there will be a lot of subconscious behaviors that will be attractive to her. What she thinks and whether she sees you as alpha or not is immaterial.
Almost told her I wanted a to separate this morning. It was weird. The urge just overcame me. Actually the urge was to say "I want a divorce", but then I softened it down to "I think we should separate". I was able to avoid actually saying but it was close.

I drove to work and I started to to break down the emotions. I think it is mostly what I said in one of my more recent posts. I am just tired. After nearly 2 years of always being on, always catching my reactions and emotions, and tempering them, I think I am just ready to be free of the bondage. I also think that there is a part hoos and I discussed. If she was who she is now when we got married, I probably would not have married her. And so there is a big part of me that is sitting here thinking "I deserve more. I deserve better. I deserve to not have to settle for less than I would demand of a potential spouse."

There is one other aspect involved to. I remember years ago a friend of mine married this woman. She was very nice. Very sweet. And she wanted to be with him 24/7. I remember her coming to events where it was just all of us guys, but she wasn't about to not tag along with him. I liked her a lot, so I didn't mind, but looking back 25 years later I can see where it was a red flag. Eventually he grew tired of it, wanted space, and he finally left her. When I asked what happened he said "I realized that I was never going to make her happy." That line captures how I feel. I am never going to be able to make her happy. Whether I am a jerk like I was for 90% of our first 18 years. Whether I am "amazing" the way I have been for almost the last two years. I just don't think she is going to be happy with me. Maybe she will never be happy with anyone. But no matter what I try I can't make her happy. And worse, I shouldn't even be trying because that is on her, not me.

So for now we are in limbo. She doesn't know she is in limbo though. I haven't BD'd her. I am sure this post will disappoint some of you, and for that I am sorry. But these are my honest thoughts and feelings. Maybe one day I will snap out of it. Maybe it is because the bump in the road is still so fresh. Maybe I am caught in this cycle of working so hard on me for 10-12 months, that I go through a few weeks where I question everything. IDK.
S,

I totally understand where youíre coming from when you say your tired. I also always remember your story not following the script that we see here so many times. I believe I even once said that IMO if your W had a job and her OM was accessible she would have most likely divorced you. Until they get out there and experience reality the fantasy never goes away.

I like you wasnít the greatest husband for the first 13 years but was able to show my ex the best of me for a year and a half but it wasnít enough to overcome the 13 not so good years. Iím still a true believer that true reconciliations only happens after time and space. Maybe a separation isnít a bad idea.

Take some time and process your emotions and see how you feel in a few weeks.

Best of luck to you Steve.
You canīt act on emotions Steve. You have done a long journey. You know who you are. You know what you deserve.

Completely agree with LH, itīs about DB basics:

Originally Posted by LH19
Iím still a true believer that true reconciliations only happens after time and space.


We donīt live on crumbs. Face your life Steve. Be proud of where you stand.

Originally Posted by LH19
S,

I totally understand where youíre coming from when you say your tired. I also always remember your story not following the script that we see here so many times. I believe I even once said that IMO if your W had a job and her OM was accessible she would have most likely divorced you. Until they get out there and experience reality the fantasy never goes away.

I like you wasnít the greatest husband for the first 13 years but was able to show my ex the best of me for a year and a half but it wasnít enough to overcome the 13 not so good years. Iím still a true believer that true reconciliations only happens after time and space. Maybe a separation isnít a bad idea.

Take some time and process your emotions and see how you feel in a few weeks.

Best of luck to you Steve.


Yes, I need to remain patient. Thanks. I've come this far, I can hold out a little longer. I actually got excited by the prospect of separating, and eventually divorcing. Very similar to where I was last Dec.

Originally Posted by neffer
You canīt act on emotions Steve. You have done a long journey. You know who you are. You know what you deserve.

Completely agree with LH, itīs about DB basics:

Originally Posted by LH19
Iím still a true believer that true reconciliations only happens after time and space.


We donīt live on crumbs. Face your life Steve. Be proud of where you stand.



Well the space hasn't been a problem! I have been GAL to a fault. But I need to remain patient, and let things progress.
A good insight into the was , bravo Steve, you are a top man , shoot straight and you will be fine , as alwayspatience is the key
Originally Posted by Steve85
Almost told her I wanted a to separate this morning. It was weird. The urge just overcame me. Actually the urge was to say "I want a divorce", but then I softened it down to "I think we should separate". I was able to avoid actually saying but it was close.


Glad you held back from saying it. You've probably seen me tell others this before, but if you said that to yourself today then that could be nothing more than fleeting feelings. But if you say it to yourself every day for a month or two or three, well then there is more to it. So give yourself time and see how you feel.

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I am just tired. After nearly 2 years of always being on, always catching my reactions and emotions, and tempering them, I think I am just ready to be free of the bondage. I also think that there is a part hoos and I discussed. If she was who she is now when we got married, I probably would not have married her. And so there is a big part of me that is sitting here thinking "I deserve more. I deserve better. I deserve to not have to settle for less than I would demand of a potential spouse."


Definitely can see why you would feel that way. A lot has changed since then, she's not the same person and you probably aren't either. At some point you have to ask yourself if THIS person is really who you want to be with. I think some people choose to stay together simply because of the shared history, and more power to them. I don't think that would work for me though, I need to be with someone that constantly stimulates me (and I her as well).

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I am never going to be able to make her happy. Whether I am a jerk like I was for 90% of our first 18 years. Whether I am "amazing" the way I have been for almost the last two years. I just don't think she is going to be happy with me. Maybe she will never be happy with anyone. But no matter what I try I can't make her happy.


I can't remember if you read the Happiness Trap early on, but if not then you might want to pick it up. You're right in that you can't make her happy, only SHE can do that. And only YOU can make yourself happy. I think our society makes us believe we have to chase happiness, like it's something that's out there that we need to find and buy and hold onto. Or that we need to take from someone else, steal and hide and covet. But it's more of a state of mind, we can choose to be happy despite whatever is going on all around us. The story of Corrie ten Boom in the concentration camp during WWII is just astonishing, this woman lived in the most horrific conditions imaginable and brought love, joy and hope to everyone around her. She was HAPPY. How is it possible in those circumstances? Seems impossible to most. I would venture to say she was happier than any millionaire around today. No husband, no kids, sister died in the same concentration camp, no belongings, no hope, no future, a prisoner despite having committed no crime. If she can be happy under those circumstances then there is hope for anyone.

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Maybe one day I will snap out of it. Maybe it is because the bump in the road is still so fresh. Maybe I am caught in this cycle of working so hard on me for 10-12 months, that I go through a few weeks where I question everything. IDK.


Maybe so. That's why you need to give yourself time! Maybe try to get out and GAL some more and recenter yourself. And whether people here are disappointed or not I think it's great that you share your experience whether positive or negative. It's a good learning opportunity for us all.
Steve do not sell yourself short , AS speaks wisdom as always , you get what you deserve, took me a long time to work that out . There are good people out there , donít Fuk up and settle for anything less
Not sure if you ever read Eckhart Tolle's "The Power of Now" or "The New Earth", Steve, but maybe give them a gander, if you are so inclined.

There are some amazing revelations in those two books that might help you with how you are feeling right now. Not every single word of the books will resonate, mind you, but a lot of it may help you to understand why you are feeling the way that you are right now. It definitely helped me.

AS said the rest - that is one very intelligent person right there. Keep out of your fleeting emotions- they will pass as they always do.

Keep strong, man - you got this.
Iím behind you Steve whatever you decide. Iím no chop on any of the vets here, especially with advice, but all Iíll say is do whatever is needed for you to avoid being a shell of a man at the end of it all.
Steve...I hear you and relate so much. As others have said, take your time and feel what you need to feel. With all your work, I know you will make the right decision for yourself in the end, whatever that may be.
Hey Steve...I am not on much anymore but when I check in always want to see how those who helped me are doing.

I am in the same boat as you. Continuously saying life might just be better starting over. One thing keeping me around is S15 and am happy my sitch is not where it was this time last year. I think we as LBS needed to go to that extreme mentally to realize where we have been and that we will not go back even though our new norm is way different than it was pre BD.

I think we are ok with that and it is normal after all these years to keep questioning this new R because we were conditioned to that old routine.

I too, constantly have anxiety about whether OM will reemerge but I cut those feelings off very quickly because I know...I know that I will never be disrespected that way again and I could walk away from the R at that moment and start my life over without anger.

I am embracing the new R that I have and am working on being happy...not just content that A is over, etc etc but happy with the changes I have made for myself and a new attitude toward life. I gave up on hoping things would "go back to the way they were"....that is unrealistic and we can't wait for that to happen. Move forward Steve be happy.
Originally Posted by lost8
Hey Steve...I am not on much anymore but when I check in always want to see how those who helped me are doing.

I am in the same boat as you. Continuously saying life might just be better starting over. One thing keeping me around is S15 and am happy my sitch is not where it was this time last year. I think we as LBS needed to go to that extreme mentally to realize where we have been and that we will not go back even though our new norm is way different than it was pre BD.

I think we are ok with that and it is normal after all these years to keep questioning this new R because we were conditioned to that old routine.

I too, constantly have anxiety about whether OM will reemerge but I cut those feelings off very quickly because I know...I know that I will never be disrespected that way again and I could walk away from the R at that moment and start my life over without anger.

I am embracing the new R that I have and am working on being happy...not just content that A is over, etc etc but happy with the changes I have made for myself and a new attitude toward life. I gave up on hoping things would "go back to the way they were"....that is unrealistic and we can't wait for that to happen. Move forward Steve be happy.


Thanks l8, I am in a much better place right now. I have been GAL like crazy and this has helped. I continue to be healthily lovingly detached. And I continue to make sure my 180s are cemented. I think that sometimes life just gets a little overwhelming. Even in a good marriage there are ups and downs. Keeping the right perspective is so important. My W did start having inappropriate conversations again a couple of months ago. I caught it, confronted, and she agreed to full transparency. My choice is to accept that and move forward, or say that was the last straw and bolt. What I don't have the right to do is stay and complain. I listened to a podcast recently on relationships and this was the main point they were making. And I think we've made that point on this forum quite a bit too. I tested myself and decided to stick around.
[quote]
Originally Posted by LH19
S,
I believe I even once said that IMO if your W had a job and her OM was accessible she would have most likely divorced you. Until they get out there and experience reality the fantasy never goes away.


This and I think its a 2-way street. Steve, you are exactly where I'd be had I gotten the chance to reconcile. Honestly I got exhausted just reading your post. WAH had a fantasy of how life was going to be but guess what I had my own fantasy. His fantasy and mine didn't line up because duh it's a fantasy. Reality is different. Reality is right in front of me, today, this moment. Fantasy is in my head. Its in his head.

S19 tells me that WAH is still knee deep in fantasy land and honestly so am I. His fantasy is that life will be better without me in it. Not true but I see his point. It will be different but not better. Want to know why it won't be better? He isn't doing the work. Simply removing me isn't going to fix HIM.

And on my side of the street it's another fantasy. My fantasy was that if I was loved enough then my life would be better. Also not true. I still think I need someone and I won't truly be free until I fix this. For me the idea isn't to find someone else (this isn't difficult) its to not need someone else? Make sense?
Originally Posted by kas99
Quote
[quote=LH19]S,
I believe I even once said that IMO if your W had a job and her OM was accessible she would have most likely divorced you. Until they get out there and experience reality the fantasy never goes away.


This and I think its a 2-way street. Steve, you are exactly where I'd be had I gotten the chance to reconcile. Honestly I got exhausted just reading your post. WAH had a fantasy of how life was going to be but guess what I had my own fantasy. His fantasy and mine didn't line up because duh it's a fantasy. Reality is different. Reality is right in front of me, today, this moment. Fantasy is in my head. Its in his head.

S19 tells me that WAH is still knee deep in fantasy land and honestly so am I. His fantasy is that life will be better without me in it. Not true but I see his point. It will be different but not better. Want to know why it won't be better? He isn't doing the work. Simply removing me isn't going to fix HIM.

And on my side of the street it's another fantasy. My fantasy was that if I was loved enough then my life would be better. Also not true. I still think I need someone and I won't truly be free until I fix this. For me the idea isn't to find someone else (this isn't difficult) its to not need someone else? Make sense?


Thanks kas. Appreciate it. What part or parts exhausted you? Just curious.

"And on my side of the street it's another fantasy. My fantasy was that if I was loved enough then my life would be better. Also not true. I still think I need someone and I won't truly be free until I fix this. For me the idea isn't to find someone else (this isn't difficult) its to not need someone else? Make sense?"

This is incredibly insightful. I praise you for being able to take a hard look at yourself like this. Kas, I truly believe that all of these situations are nothing if not a growth opportunity. Grow or die. Those are our choices. So I applaud you for looking into this. Please follow this up with some good IC and get to the root of why you have this need.
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I can't remember if you read the Happiness Trap early on, but if not then you might want to pick it up. You're right in that you can't make her happy, only SHE can do that. And only YOU can make yourself happy. I think our society makes us believe we have to chase happiness, like it's something that's out there that we need to find and buy and hold onto. Or that we need to take from someone else, steal and hide and covet. But it's more of a state of mind, we can choose to be happy despite whatever is going on all around us. The story of Corrie ten Boom in the concentration camp during WWII is just astonishing, this woman lived in the most horrific conditions imaginable and brought love, joy and hope to everyone around her. She was HAPPY. How is it possible in those circumstances? Seems impossible to most. I would venture to say she was happier than any millionaire around today. No husband, no kids, sister died in the same concentration camp, no belongings, no hope, no future, a prisoner despite having committed no crime. If she can be happy under those circumstances then there is hope for anyone.


There's alot of faith-based material on this out there. I know our pastor talks about it quite alot. You'll often hear it framed in terms of "happiness" vice "joy", with "happiness" being something you pursue (somewhat selfishly) but somehow never quite obtain... at least with any permanence. "Joy" on the other hand comes from within, from an inner sense of well-being or, if you are a person of faith, from one's personal relationship with the Lord. "Joy" starts within but actually overflows out of you when you are at your most joyful, bringing light and joy to others. I probably butchered the explanation, but i always find it a very compelling message/discussion when i hear it.
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Thanks kas. Appreciate it. What part or parts exhausted you? Just curious.


If you've ever read or listened to Brene Brown she talks about "hustling for your worth". She uses the analogy of being stuck in a spider web no matter which way your turn you're still stuck. I got the vibe you are exhausted from "hustling" and from trying to escape the web. As much as I want my WAH back it wouldn't work and I know it. I'd hustle and (this makes me cry) I know I'd be more miserable/exhausted than I am now. See its easier to live in denial than to face the truth. Steve you know the truth as do I which is why you're struggling. My IC used to say you can't "unknow" something. She talked about it like trying to hold a beach ball underwater. Exhausting.

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This is incredibly insightful. I praise you for being able to take a hard look at yourself like this. Kas, I truly believe that all of these situations are nothing if not a growth opportunity. Grow or die. Those are our choices. So I applaud you for looking into this. Please follow this up with some good IC and get to the root of why you have this need.


I'm in tears today close to sobbing so not feeling so strong today. I'm grateful to post on your thread. Putting my thoughts out there even if it's to give you advice helps me. We teach what we most need to learn right? I've had 20 years (off and on) of IC and honestly it's like kicking a drug habit all the IC in the world can't fix this. I know why I'm addicted but the cure is to go cold turkey. I need to learn to sit with the bad feelings without a man in my life.

WAH doesn't want me. That is my truth. I can go seek another man or I can learn to live without one. I think the short term pain is better than continuing to be in pain for the rest of my life. If I seek another man before I fix this I'll be right back here in no time. Guarantee it.
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I've had 20 years (off and on) of IC and honestly it's like kicking a drug habit all the IC in the world can't fix this. I know why I'm addicted but the cure is to go cold turkey. I need to learn to sit with the bad feelings without a man in my life.

WAH doesn't want me. That is my truth. I can go seek another man or I can learn to live without one. I think the short term pain is better than continuing to be in pain for the rest of my life. If I seek another man before I fix this I'll be right back here in no time. Guarantee it.


kas, I feel for you, and i know what you're going through. You think you need this one person, or perhaps just any person, to make you happy, and you don't know how you're going to survive without them. I was there myself. But, I'd urge you to read my most recent post just above here, on seeking happiness versus experiencing joy. My W and i bothwent through this journey, each of us in our different ways, and it was transformative. Bottom line is that if you go searching for "true happiness" outside yourself, you will forever be seeking. You need to find joy/satisfaction/thankfulness/happiness(if you must call it that) within yourself. You have to be "good" and whole on your own. My pastor is fond of saying that he hates the phrase "you complete me", because when you put two broken/incomplete people together you dont get a "complete" anything... you get a pair of broken/incomplete people. The best relationships are ones where each person, even with all their goods and bads, is comfortable in their own skin and, despite whatever ghosts or brokenness they have experienced, bring a "whole" person to the relationship. It's the difference between codependence and interdependence. That's why GAL's and 180s are so integral to DB-ing... it's all about building YOU up and making YOU the best person you can be... someone you can be happy being whether you're with a man or single. My W and I found this primarily through faith. However you go about trying to find it, my hopes and prayers are that you do... you are a unique person with unique gifts and a unique purpose on this earth.. celebrate that!
Hey Steve, didn't mean to thread-jack, above, but i felt my response to kas kind of built on and extended what i had posted to you in my previous post, so i left it here. Hope that's okay, and hope you are doing well.

Peace, brother.
Originally Posted by Steve85
Almost told her I wanted to separate this morning. It was weird. The urge just overcame me.


How are things now?
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Originally Posted by Steve85
Almost told her I wanted to separate this morning. It was weird. The urge just overcame me.


How are things now?


Things are good. We are back to the pre-bump-in-the-road dynamic. We are having a lot of fun together, we are interacting well and sharing our lives well. She continues to be openly transparent on everything.

One small obstacle to physical intimacy. She recently developed a health issue that is preventing it. Went to her doctor today and the doctor said there was a procedure to correct it, but that it was up to her. Don't want to get into details, but just suffice it to say her and I need to discuss it. I need to be more open about needs, etc.
Originally Posted by Steve85
I need to be more open about needs

Check out Fine Art of Erotic Talk p187. You might be able to tweek it to be less needy sounding.

I really don't talk about my needs with my lady. I build up the tension, tease, give her a choice"

Rated G version:
Me:"Want to fool around before or after dinner?" Smile/Wink
Glad to hear things are back on track Steve.
Way to go Steve!

Have you tried coming home at lunchtime, but not for lunch, yet?

I fully agree with R2C about not talking about your needs (in the intimacy sphere). You fulfill hers, and focus on hers being your priority, and I can guarantee she'll be asking you what you need and want! Maybe give her a hint if you feel the timing's right by whispering it in her ear in conjunction with what you intend to do to her!

I've got no idea what her health issue is, but if it's just preventing you from, ahem, coupling in the traditional sense, then maybe a chance to explore other options in fulfilling her needs.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change
[quote=Steve85]

Rated G version:
Me:"Want to fool around before or after dinner?" Smile/Wink


PG version (even better if you cook dinner)

Hope you're hungry darl. We're having XYZ for dinner - I'm devouring you for dessert... (insert wink emoji)

Good luck Steve!
Steve, how's it going?
Jim,

Things are good. The old house is almost sold. So that will be good. D16 finished driver's ed. Hunting season is here. W and I have been having a lot of fun, enjoying each other's company. I am still GAL (gun range Tues./hunting this weekend). Really nothing to report. She was on a church ladies' trip last weekend. I did some "verifying" and found nothing out of the ordinary. So we seem to be over the bump in the road of a couple of months ago.

Thanks for asking, appreciate it.
Hey guys. Quick checkin. Been struggling with the instinct to be clingy and needy. Fighting it hard. This is something I've struggled with over the years. If I start feeling close and connected I can fall into the needy clingy trap.

GAL hasn't been an issue. Still hiitting the gun range with a buddy. I'm in a tree stand as I type this. Just need some 2x4s.
Nothing wrong with needing your woman now and again. What are you needing her for?
Ovr, just a needy clingy thing. Not sure much needing. I'll type more from my pc later.
I like when a guy needs me and is a little clingy. Shows vulnerability. Thereís a right way of going about it though. You can still be a man even when you want and need your partner
Originally Posted by Ginger1
I like when a guy needs me and is a little clingy. Shows vulnerability. Thereís a right way of going about it though. You can still be a man even when you want and need your partner


Could you elaborate a bit on the "right way of going about it"? For me, at least, that might be helpful.
Originally Posted by Steve85
... Been struggling with the instinct to be clingy and needy....


It is OK to be needy (at times). Just donít be needy all the time. Know when it is OK.

Everything is not black or white. The key is knowing when to be black or white, or some level of grey.

Most of us come here knowing only one way of behaving (in certain areas). Being only one shade of grey gets us in trouble.


One of my biggest frustrations is how we all us broad categories. In this case, clingy and needy, encompasses a broad range. If you can be more specific, that helps a lot.

For example, if I said I went out last night and GAL. Not much info communicated, but if I said "I was out last night for 3 hours listening to live music, played 6 games of pool, met three new people bla bla bla", you have better understanding of what I did.
It does matter how you define clingy and needy.

I like a guy to say he just wants to be with me. Spend time with me, cuddle with me, whatever. Itís nice to know you are wanted.

What isnít good is being jealous, or nasty and cranky when you are turned down for those things and you donít get your way.

However, this usually works much better when you are in a good place. She will be receptive to it if she is comfortable with you and wanting to spend time with you. If she is t feeling you, she wonít be receptive.

In my last relationship I felt like I always had to play the distance card to get him to come closer. It was like the only way it worked. It shouldnít be that way though. You should be comfortable with your partner in being able to say ď I mjust want to spend time with you and connectĒ rather than have to play the distance pursuit game all the time. It gets really old for me.

I know R2change gives lots of advice on attracting women and keeping their attraction. Some i feel is accurate, we donlike to be made to feel sexy and wanted some times. Other times, I just love to know the guy Iím with wants to be with me and connect with me on a different level. More emotionally, rather than physically ( and I am high drive) I love when the guy I love just wants to spend time with me and excited about it ( my LL is quality tome)
Thanks for the interesting replies.

I think Ginger really hit on it by alluding to the distance card. I fear that being too clingy and needy will send my W into distance mode. Though her attitude towards having to pursue is so much more different than it was in the past. I really wonder if your SSRIs are causing her to be "numb" to her feelings as well as the feelings of others. I know I've talked about before how she doesn't have the same empathy for others that she did before. When I have mentioned this to her she chalks it up to be older, but I tend to believe that most people become more empathetic as they mature, not less.

So while I can certainly pursue to the point of her distancing (mostly through clingy, needy behavior) I do not believe I can engender any pursuit behavior by distancing. It is a strange place to be emotionally.
S,

How is she making out with IC? Is her lack of empathy a point of topic?
Originally Posted by LH19
S,

How is she making out with IC? Is her lack of empathy a point of topic?


LH, great question. C in general has been on hold since the move over a year ago. As we try to sell the old house. (There has been movement on that, BTW.) She knows I feel she should be in IC and that I even proposed that she go even though our finances are a bit on hold while we pay for two houses.
Ah I see. I thought you were going to make it a requirement after the last slip up? Thatís probably part of the reason you are getting anxious and want to over pursue. The old ďillusion of actionĒ kicking in. After the initial make up phase sheís probably distancing some?
Originally Posted by "Jim1234"
Could you elaborate a bit on the "right way of going about it"? For me, at least, that might be helpful.

Originally Posted by "Ginger"
I like a guy to say he just wants to be with me. Spend time with me, cuddle with me, whatever. Itís nice to know you are wanted.

What isnít good is being jealous, or nasty and cranky when you are turned down for those things and you donít get your way.

It's a negative if I say, "I called because I missed hearing your voice this morning.", but a positive if I say, "I called because I really wanted to hear your voice." Which is not to say one shouldn't have a discussion if one's needs are regularly unmet. My partner calls/texts a good morning almost every day.
Originally Posted by LH19
Ah I see. I thought you were going to make it a requirement after the last slip up? Thatís probably part of the reason you are getting anxious and want to over pursue. The old ďillusion of actionĒ kicking in. After the initial make up phase sheís probably distancing some?


Actually no. We've been in a good place emotionally. We are very connected. It's just I miss the girl that was very affectionate. But I have to come to terms with the fact that she's likely good for good. She doesn't refuse affection. She just doesn't initiate.
Ok. Now I understand. Youíre in a tough spot because you donít want to come off as needy asking for more affection initiated by her. Thatís a tough call because you donít want to force her if sheís not into it.
Originally Posted by LH19
Ok. Now I understand. Youíre in a tough spot because you donít want to come off as needy asking for more affection initiated by her. Thatís a tough call because you donít want to force her if sheís not into it.


Yes. Plus, I think my needing her affection is coming from a place of weakness...not strength. IE, instead of feeling so connected and in-tune that I enjoy her initiating affection, I feel like something is missing and insecure so I want her to initiate affection.

Some of this is my history. I was always a good friend to girls I was interested in. The girls that were interested in me I had no desire for. I am weird.
Not having your needs met to me is not a weakness. Do you feel comfortable talking to her about it?
Originally Posted by LH19
Not having your needs met to me is not a weakness. Do you feel comfortable talking to her about it?


I did. She chalks it up to being older.
Yeah not a fan of that answer. Well if everything else is going good you may have to give on that one.

My ex was like that with sex. Very rarely initiated but even more rarely turned me down. It bothered me. My friends thought I was nuts because I still got it when I wanted. It would get to me sometimes.
Originally Posted by LH19
Yeah not a fan of that answer. Well if everything else is going good you may have to give on that one.

My ex was like that with sex. Very rarely initiated but even more rarely turned me down. It bothered me. My friends thought I was nuts because I still got it when I wanted. It would get to me sometimes.


Yeah, I agree, and what you describe with sex is the case with us as well. She is always open to me initiating, but never initiates herself. She flirts, and makes innuendo, which I enjoy.

But yeah, I think this is more my hang-up than an actual problem.


Originally Posted by Steve85
I did. She chalks it up to being older.


I believe once a couple gets to "Together at last", they both should be going out of their way to meet the other persons needs. True giving.

I am not sure if you are there yet. How do you get there? I think it is part of the MC.




One of my mantras:
"As the man, I am in charge of the sex and romance department."

Seeing the desire in my ladies eyes and having her initiate a full on french kiss is priceless. This almost always happens when I am not being needy. I am just enjoying her for who she is. I am being romantic. I make it all about her.
Originally Posted by Ready2Change


Originally Posted by Steve85
I did. She chalks it up to being older.


I believe once a couple gets to "Together at last", they both should be going out of their way to meet the other persons needs. True giving.

I am not sure if you are there yet. How do you get there? I think it is part of the MC.




One of my mantras:
"As the man, I am in charge of the sex and romance department."

Seeing the desire in my ladies eyes and having her initiate a full on french kiss is priceless. This almost always happens when I am not being needy. I am just enjoying her for who she is. I am being romantic. I make it all about her.











Thanks, as always R2C!

I think part of my problem is I am feeling down right now. About a lot of things. This is having a negative impact on my MR outlook. I need to find my groove again and get back to where I was feeling fulfilled and happy internally. I have a lot to be happy and thankful for, and I need to get busy feeling that way again.
Oh, and I've decided that maybe I do need to employ a bit of a distance approach. I think I've been too "there", and trying to hard on filling her love tank (her LL is words of affirmation). I need to go back to being pleased, content, happy, fulfilled, confident, and not be so talkative. Let her initiate conversation and do more of the talking.

Most of the problems that I've had in my life were due to my fat mouth.
Originally Posted by Steve85
I think part of my problem is I am feeling down right now. About a lot of things. This is having a negative impact on my MR outlook. I need to find my groove again and get back to where I was feeling fulfilled and happy internally. I have a lot to be happy and thankful for, and I need to get busy feeling that way again.

Boom! That's it! It's funny how quickly our perspectives can change when we line up a few small wins and get the good feelings rolling. I know you can do this. You know you can do this.

Steve, you've helped out a TREMENDOUS number of people here. You can turn this around and I know it.
Originally Posted by Steve85
Oh, and I've decided that maybe I do need to employ a bit of a distance approach. I think I've been too "there", and trying to hard on filling her love tank (her LL is words of affirmation). I need to go back to being pleased, content, happy, fulfilled, confident, and not be so talkative. Let her initiate conversation and do more of the talking.

Most of the problems that I've had in my life were due to my fat mouth.



Just tread lightly. Many people told me piecing is very different from BDing. Very. Depending upon your w, being clear honest and open is helpful. No doubt she knows of you need for affection (sex or otherwise) I think you struggle with "I shouldn't have to ask" thinking that we all get from time to time. (I had that same line of thought too many times).

But I look at it like I have no problem expressing my other needs to my wife. None. do you? Do you wait until she's hungry to ask about dinner? Do you sit in a cold house waiting for her to change the temp or close a window? if the TV was too loud would you just keep it that way without asking her about it? Do you go to bed when she's tired?

But like I said it takes a heck of a long time. I felt "stuck" for a couple of years. Honestly, I think some couples probably never get unstuck and decide to stay together for other reasons.


Got a call from a friend of 25 years last night. He was actually a supervisor of mine early in my career, and a very good one. He moved out of state shortly after getting married back in the late 90s, but we've stayed in contact over the years. Anyway, he had just be served with D papers. I don't have a lot of details yet, but he was looking to see if he should just move on or if he should keep trying to hang on. We are supposed to have a follow-up call. But as always I want to make sure I get perspectives here before advising him. He is saying a lot of the things we all say. "My ego can't let go." "I am a fighter." "I am thinking mostly about my kids."

Anyway it has been weighing heavily on me, been praying a lot of him. And her as well. It is sad how frequent all of this is.
Originally Posted by Steve85
But as always I want to make sure I get perspectives here before advising him.
I have handed out several copies of DR to in real life people. I also give them a copy of the four agreements as well. Tell them I have more books if interested.


I tell them about this website, but do not share my user name.

Advise some of the big items like Not to move out of the house etc.
Update:

Recently ran into a string of bad luck. Long story, but some is related to the new house and some the old house which we are in the process of selling (got and accepted an offer). Anyway, the last three days have been one piece of bad news, or negative events, after another.

The good news is that my W and I have been a solid team through it! It feels so good. 2 years ago and the weeks following BD, I would not have believed any of this was ever possible!! Newbies, please listen: GAL, 180s, and loving detachment (self-differentiation) can WORK!! It isn't a guarantee to save your marriage, but it gives you a better chance than pressure and pursuit. Trust the process of DBing...see it through to the end. Remember, even D (as some others here have proven) doesn't mean the end.
Oh, man, I'm dealing with issues with my house, too, and it's a major headache. You'll weather this storm, but the process [censored]. Great news that you are dealing with this together! I'm so happy for you!
Originally Posted by Jim1234
Oh, man, I'm dealing with issues with my house, too, and it's a major headache. You'll weather this storm, but the process [censored]. Great news that you are dealing with this together! I'm so happy for you!


Jim, I think you owe us an update! smile Look forward to reading your in thread soon.
Originally Posted by Steve85

The good news is that my W and I have been a solid team through it! It feels so good. 2 years ago and the weeks following BD, I would not have believed any of this was ever possible!!

Great to hear it, Steve! You give us newbies hope!
Well it is coming up on that time again. BD anniversary date. 12/23 will be two years since BD. It amazes me the amount of anxiety that date can still drum up.

Most of you that were here last year know that last year at this time I was struggling with why I fought so hard to save my marriage. Why I didn't just walk away after BD last year. I struggled for a couple of months with the idea of pulling the plug myself, as most of you are aware.

This year I am much more content in our new MR. After the speed bump in the late summer, as documented here, things are back on an even keel. Her and I are settling into middle-age, heading towards old-age, with a firm commitment to each other and to our MR. And this time I am not resting on my laurels. I continue to read, learn and improve. The sale of the old house has move forward, and soon I will insist that her and I get back into MC. I will get back into IC. I am never again going to sit back and just let life come at me, I am going to go out and get out of life what I want.

Anyway, I am sure I will come back here as the emotions of that date continue to rise and fall. Just wanted to give a quick update.
Wow, interesting too see you in a vulnerable spot.
It is sad and the older the people are, the sadder and dumber it is to D in my opinion. What are they running to? Do people in their late 50s, 60s and over really think there is better out there? I don't get it. I haven't dated in 35 years and from what I see and hear, I DON'T WANT TO!

Welcome to the other side of 6000 posts!
Originally Posted by Steve85
Well it is coming up on that time again. BD anniversary date. 12/23 will be two years since BD. It amazes me the amount of anxiety that date can still drum up.

Most of you that were here last year know that last year at this time I was struggling with why I fought so hard to save my marriage. Why I didn't just walk away after BD last year. I struggled for a couple of months with the idea of pulling the plug myself, as most of you are aware.

This year I am much more content in our new MR. After the speed bump in the late summer, as documented here, things are back on an even keel. Her and I are settling into middle-age, heading towards old-age, with a firm commitment to each other and to our MR. And this time I am not resting on my laurels. I continue to read, learn and improve. The sale of the old house has move forward, and soon I will insist that her and I get back into MC. I will get back into IC. I am never again going to sit back and just let life come at me, I am going to go out and get out of life what I want.

Anyway, I am sure I will come back here as the emotions of that date continue to rise and fall. Just wanted to give a quick update.


Steve85, I have been following your sitch for some time now. Although, I never commented. Iím glad to hear that things are going well with you and your wife. Your situation always gave me hope.

Itís funny that you say you battled with the decision to fight for your marriage. I can truly relate to that. I beat myself up sometimes for not walking away 2 years ago when I was first BDíd. Anyway, I wonít hijack your thread, itís just good to hear that you and your wife are committed to building a new marriage. I wish you both the best!

I read this thread the other day and thought of you:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=162709#Post162709

I would love to hear your perspective if you are willing to share. I am sure other readers would benefit.
Originally Posted by Ready2Change

I read this thread the other day and thought of you:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=162709#Post162709

I would love to hear your perspective if you are willing to share. I am sure other readers would benefit.


Interesting thread. I will have to look at it in more depth. I do think that the OP really hit on something related to positivity. You have to remain ever positive if you have any hope of success in piecing and Ring. Negativity, and being overly sensitive will destroy you. But I need to take more time to really digest that thread.
Originally Posted by Living
Originally Posted by Steve85
Well it is coming up on that time again. BD anniversary date. 12/23 will be two years since BD. It amazes me the amount of anxiety that date can still drum up.

Most of you that were here last year know that last year at this time I was struggling with why I fought so hard to save my marriage. Why I didn't just walk away after BD last year. I struggled for a couple of months with the idea of pulling the plug myself, as most of you are aware.

This year I am much more content in our new MR. After the speed bump in the late summer, as documented here, things are back on an even keel. Her and I are settling into middle-age, heading towards old-age, with a firm commitment to each other and to our MR. And this time I am not resting on my laurels. I continue to read, learn and improve. The sale of the old house has move forward, and soon I will insist that her and I get back into MC. I will get back into IC. I am never again going to sit back and just let life come at me, I am going to go out and get out of life what I want.

Anyway, I am sure I will come back here as the emotions of that date continue to rise and fall. Just wanted to give a quick update.


Steve85, I have been following your sitch for some time now. Although, I never commented. Iím glad to hear that things are going well with you and your wife. Your situation always gave me hope.

Itís funny that you say you battled with the decision to fight for your marriage. I can truly relate to that. I beat myself up sometimes for not walking away 2 years ago when I was first BDíd. Anyway, I wonít hijack your thread, itís just good to hear that you and your wife are committed to building a new marriage. I wish you both the best!


I think part of it is laziness? I think after a year of always being on, last year at this time I was ready to just sit back and relax. And just come down for a while. I also think I had gotten a little lax in my GAL. GAL is not a temporary, just get me through my sitch thing. It is a lifelong thing. We should always be GAL! Just like we should always be self-improving (180s) and always being in a healthy level of self-differentiation (detachment).

If you think about it, the easiest way to bring about death in any aspect is to do nothing. If you sat down in one spot and did nothing, in a short period of time you would die right there. Same with relationships. Sitting down and doing nothing will bring about the death of your MR.
Originally Posted by Newbie20
Wow, interesting too see you in a vulnerable spot.

Originally Posted by Newbie20
It is sad and the older the people are, the sadder and dumber it is to D in my opinion. What are they running to? Do people in their late 50s, 60s and over really think there is better out there? I don't get it. I haven't dated in 35 years and from what I see and hear, I DON'T WANT TO!


Yeah, none of us are perfect here. I've given bad advice and been called out for it. And rightfully so. Vulnerability is part of being human. And while at times it is easy to see objectivity in other people's sitches, in our own it is very difficult.
Absolutely. No shade there. I didn't know your story until I just read it.
Itīs about living your life and being aware of that.

Keep walking your road dear brother.
Steve, wow I didn't remember that she BD'd you two days before Christmas, how thoughtful was that? Incredible! Hopefully the anxiety will pass but it's certainly understandable. My grandfather took his life right before Christmas when I was a kid and it was many, many years before I could make it through Christmas again without feeling terrible grief.

Originally Posted by Newbie20
It is sad and the older the people are, the sadder and dumber it is to D in my opinion. What are they running to? Do people in their late 50s, 60s and over really think there is better out there? I don't get it. I haven't dated in 35 years and from what I see and hear, I DON'T WANT TO!


Well it is easier for men I think, because we can date a lot younger. There's still a taboo in place for women to do that although it's not as frowned upon as it once was. Dating the same age once you're over 50 is tough because everyone is pretty set in their ways and established by then. Younger people have a lot more flexible lives and living situations, so if you date younger it's easier for your partner to adapt to your home and work schedule. Now as for what a WAS is thinking, well they're in the fog of a fantasy. They really do think they'll find that perfect mate that worships them, wants to spend every waking moment gazing into their eyes, makes millions, is emotionally supportive and is ready and willing for sex whenever called upon. Do they find that? No, of course not. But they -think- they will and you simply can't compete with a fantasy, because a fantasy partner has zero baggage and zero problems.
Well, in my case, he's 64 and "unable" to put it delicately. So younger ain't happening and the older ones .... OMG. He got lucky with me. I look 15-18 years younger.
Quote
Well it is coming up on that time again. BD anniversary date. 12/23 will be two years since BD. It amazes me the amount of anxiety that date can still drum up.


What IS it about the 23rd of the month? I not one, not two, not three, but FOUR significant blow ups/shoot-downs/crises/setbacks concerning my sitch and my WW that happened on the 23rd of the month. Including the initial BD. All within the first 8 months, IIRC. And then the final blow-up after months of work when everything seemed to come crashing down (as I thought) for good? Also on the 23rd, though that was after several months of being lulled into complacency.

Down with the the 23rd!!!! mad

(Glad to hear you are doing well, man, and hope you and the W have a Merry Christmas and many Happy New Years to come!)
Hey Steve,
Esther Perel talks a lot about the value of rituals to symbolize closing out a phase of life, like she had a couple rake dead leaves and burn the pile to symbolize getting rid of the dead pages of their R. Maybe a little cheesy but I wonder if you guys could plan something for that day-- even just planning to have a romantic evening together, dinner and a hotel or something else that you could look forward to that could turn the day from a negative into a positive? (Also, does she even remember that the 23rd was BD day?)
I really appreciate your postings both on your own situation and all you have given to others, including your insight on my sitch-- just want to say thank you and I'm thinking of you!
Hey Steve

Glad to hear things are on the up, and hope the 23rd passes but this time filled with newer and better memories for you and your family.

Cheers, DS
Originally Posted by neffer
Itīs about living your life and being aware of that.

Keep walking your road dear brother.


Thanks buddy! Thanks for all you do.
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Steve, wow I didn't remember that she BD'd you two days before Christmas, how thoughtful was that? Incredible! Hopefully the anxiety will pass but it's certainly understandable. My grandfather took his life right before Christmas when I was a kid and it was many, many years before I could make it through Christmas again without feeling terrible grief.


In her defense, I initiated BD. I had found her FB messenger messages to OM. I was too impulsive and confronted her. I wish I had just watched and monitored. But yes Christmas was terrible that year, and I am hoping my anxiety over the 23rd is less this year than last.
Originally Posted by hoosjim
Quote
Well it is coming up on that time again. BD anniversary date. 12/23 will be two years since BD. It amazes me the amount of anxiety that date can still drum up.


What IS it about the 23rd of the month? I not one, not two, not three, but FOUR significant blow ups/shoot-downs/crises/setbacks concerning my sitch and my WW that happened on the 23rd of the month. Including the initial BD. All within the first 8 months, IIRC. And then the final blow-up after months of work when everything seemed to come crashing down (as I thought) for good? Also on the 23rd, though that was after several months of being lulled into complacency.

Down with the the 23rd!!!! mad

(Glad to hear you are doing well, man, and hope you and the W have a Merry Christmas and many Happy New Years to come!)


LOL....well I am sure it is just a coincidence. Though your post did make me think of the Jim Carrey movie "The Number 23".
Originally Posted by may22
Hey Steve,
Esther Perel talks a lot about the value of rituals to symbolize closing out a phase of life, like she had a couple rake dead leaves and burn the pile to symbolize getting rid of the dead pages of their R. Maybe a little cheesy but I wonder if you guys could plan something for that day-- even just planning to have a romantic evening together, dinner and a hotel or something else that you could look forward to that could turn the day from a negative into a positive? (Also, does she even remember that the 23rd was BD day?)
I really appreciate your postings both on your own situation and all you have given to others, including your insight on my sitch-- just want to say thank you and I'm thinking of you!



Interesting idea. Though my W would have no idea that the 23rd is the anniversary of BD. At the time she would have seen it as "Liberation Day". And in her defense, I was a pretty crappy H on that day. My sitch was unique in that I caught the EA fairly early, and confronted, bringing about BD. I think had I not done that then she would have eventually BD'd me. and probably within weeks. In fact, in Dec. of 2016 (a year before BD) she said that she thought we should never have been married. I blew it off at the time, but I now look back and see how that was probably near the beginning of her becoming a WW and a WAW. The vets here and most other experts will tell you that the thought process started a long time prior, and sometimes up to 2 years before BD. I can certainly see the progression for her looking back. Maybe this year I should do something myself to "kill" the day moving forward. Thanks for the suggestion!
Originally Posted by DS9
Hey Steve

Glad to hear things are on the up, and hope the 23rd passes but this time filled with newer and better memories for you and your family.

Cheers, DS


Thanks Ds9! I love this forum and the support we provide one another!
Quote
I was morally and ethically opposed to SM to the point where I wouldn't even create an account for that purpose
If you ever change your mind, look me up, I am a friend of MWD.
Both you are so valuable. I understand the concept of giving back/paying forward and the two of you do most admirably. R2C I have bought and read several of the books you recommend re the "cat/squirrel" thing and that behavior is second nature to me. I am an expert flirter and seductress; too bad those qualities got lost in my M. I'm also a strong woman who doesn't need a man, but wants my particular one.

Steve: sorry for the threadjack. I agree with you re SM. Over 20 years ago I got caught up in an EA that started online. They are horribly addictive and seductive at the time; 20 years later it just seems stupid. Thankfully I got over it and didn't blow up my marriage although considered it at the time.
No problem on the hijack. Anytime someone wants to bash SM, then I am all for it!
Please start a new thread and link the two threads together.


new thread

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2875333#Post2875333
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