Divorce because I betrayed her trust - PART 3

Part 1:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2861875#Post2861875

Part 2
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2863376#Post2863376

Well let's see what happens on Sunday. I don't plan on being at the house very long.

I've discovered from my mortgage broker that there is a further �500 cost, so I'll just tell her about that when I see her.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change

Less is always better. You want to avoid meeting face to face like the plague. You are a busy guy.

Ask her when is a good time to pick up the mail. Quickly swing by and pick it up. When you do, you are late getting someplace important. You are also dressed well and smell good and your car is clean and you look happy and are excited to get to wherever you are going and you do not tell her.....

I am busy, but I want to go as I have a chance to practice "acting As If" for real, and being happy and positive.
Just had my car washed today in fact! On Saturday I'll probably clean the inside.

I will arrange something on Sunday anyway and just leave after an hour or so. I don't need to be there long.

Originally Posted by Dan35

leave after an hour or so

Sounds like pursuit...

I need to get some stuff out the garage anyway as well as the mail.

I'm intending to just discuss what's necessary and then go. Might take less than an hour, might take more.

Regardless, I will be emitting GAL!

Journal

Is the general consensus that my W has indeed massively over-reacted to my mistakes?

I find it really interesting that the majority of people I have spoken to in person - and some of them, including my parents, know EVERY detail of what I did behind her back - are all agreed on the fact that after just under 3 yrs of M she threw in the towel. I have not revealed everything I did on here as I'm not sure (a) it matters or (b) I assume it is not appropriate for me to describe on this forum.

This is not to excuse my behaviour. I have remorse, but no longer feel the shame any more, as lots of people KNOW what I did - it's not a secret that I'm fuelling with shame. It's made it easier to deal with certainly.

I get that it was a lot for her to discover. To her I was essentially 'perfect' - probably a really bad thing to think as every little thing I did wrong was seen as pretty major by both me and her (NGS definitely). Then her discovery of what I'd done behind her back for years shattered that perception of me, that I was a 'decent man'.
I AM a decent man - I just let my selfishness cloud my judgement and didn't move forward until now.

If R happens further down the line, so be it (though I'm not so sure my W's sister will be pleased).
Even if it's too late for R and D is final, I know that I am getting better.

I will be AMOAFWL.

Originally Posted by "Dan35"

Is the general consensus that my W has indeed massively over-reacted to my mistakes?

Well, since 98% of men between the ages of 18 and 35 have looked at porn in the last 6 months, leaving you over that would be highly unusual. That's why several of us suspect there's more going on here.

I genuinely don't think she's seeing someone else. For the amount of times she's banged on about my breaking the marital vows etc., I really don't think she has it in her to be seeing someone on the side.

Her main reasons for leaving are:
1. the deceit and length of time - lasted the entire 8 yrs of our R. She feels that I knowingly did it, and 'loved' or 'enjoyed' it as I never stopped. However I did want to stop as I was feeling ashamed of it for a long time. She feels I rejected her and didn't want her.
2. the fact that I contributed to the sites (uploaded things, commented, friended other users, etc.)
3. messaged the women online for 8 months
4. uploaded 2 pics of SIL in a private chat with 1 of the women

She is completely anti-porn. No wriggle room on that.

She also said she was unhappy with me being rather 'passive' in the R, however she didn't bring it up regularly. We were otherwise very happy - she wasn't grumpy or anything - and we never really argued. She would always tell me "you're a good man" and "you work hard".

This is why it's such a shock.

Originally Posted by CWarrior

Well, since 98%99.999% of men between the ages of 18 and 35 75 have looked at porn in the last 6 months,

That's why several of us suspect there's more going on here.

Tarzan does not let go of one vine until he has a firm grip on the next one.

Originally Posted by Dan35

I genuinely don't think she's seeing someone else.

Most of us said things like this in the beginning. Most of us were wrong.

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She also said she was unhappy with me being rather 'passive' in the R,

Yes, quite unattractive behavior. Right now is not the time to pursue, but rather lead. Focus on alpha male traits.
Review this post:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2846984

Quote

She would always tell me "you're a good man" and "you work hard".

You want your your woman saying "You are a sexy man" or "You are my rock" or "I feel safe when I am around you"

She would call me sexy and say that I was handsome.

The only other things that were going on would be her feeling that she would always have to take the lead in the R, and the somewhat sporadic sex (weeks at a time separating each time we had it).
She brought it up a few times but would expect me to change immediately and I didn't. Because of NGS I avoided the confrontation and dismissed it and didn't do anything about it - not "comfortable with the uncomfortable".

She is quite demanding. Gets bored easily. Doesn't like a weekend in the house - we HAVE to go out. That's fine but I'd be worried about money for example in that respect.

Honestly, I can't think of other issues we had in the M.

Dan,

I get a theme in your postings. It should be clear to you by now that pursuit is not working.

You're ok with being friends with her? Really? Why? I'm pulling out the little hairs on my buzzed head right now!!!

You are shielding her from the consequences of her choices. Let her do her work and leave her to it. Stop helping her.

You are 100% that there is no affair. But 99% of the sitches here have them.

And for God sakes stop taking the blame of infidelity for watching porn. That's not infidelity but messaging the women and paying for pictures is. Own your crap and nothing more.

I really think it's time for you to spit on your hands and hoist the black flag here (Mencken reference). Stop being her helper. Start being a man of action. Stop pursuing. Get a life. Hit the gym hard. Find more things you are passionate about. Buy into being a man. That link R2C gave you above is gold!!!!!

I do feel though that I am not pursuing - well I certainly don't FEEL like I am as much now, at least.

I am coping better with not talking to her, and not reaching out. Only responding when she contacts me (and even then I deliberately wait several hours to respond). My emails to her are polite, short, but business-like now. I don't tend to text her now.

I do own what I did. I'm not in denial that I hurt her, and did things I shouldn't have done. I felt guilt and remorse for the distress it caused her, wished I'd sorted it our sooner.
But I have accepted and acknowledged my actions. That's the past. I'm in the present now and sorting everything out for myself (IC, etc.).
I've decided I'm not going to let it get me down during my GALing.

I don't feel I'm helping her that much - certainly not as much as I did when we were together anyway.

There are lots of things that she will struggle with, and I know that. I don't intend to assist in any way with those, as it's her decision to do those things and make her life more complicated.

I could spend hours at home every day worrying about what she's thinking or saying to her family, siblings, friends, work colleagues about me behind my back. But I am not. That is a complete waste of my energy, not productive, and won't improve the situation. I have decided not to be affected by it. I AM a good person, and feel a lot lighter now I've been on my own for these 4 months.

My plan on Sunday: clean car, new clothes, cologne on, positive, 'act as if', confident, lots of good news to fire off if she asks. No intention of discussing R. Decide on selling agent together. Tell her to contact them directly to confirm, as it's her project.
Get my mail and parcels, plus take some instruments out the garage as I need them for some gigs I've got soon. Leave. I intend on being there less than an hour, if that. I've made plans for the evening so I have an excuse to not hang around.

One thing I've forgotten to mention is that the last time I saw her (17 August), she took a cheeky jab at me.
Somehow we got on to the idea of me meeting someone else in future, and she said, "Well when you meet someone else, hopefully you won't be as horrible to her, and then you can...[rest of conversation]." Or words to that effect anyway.

I didn't pick her up on it, and instead let it slide as I couldn't be bothered to argue, but did give her a look of "that was unnecessary."

If she says something similar on Sunday, I was going to establish a boundary (is that the right term?) and simply say, "we're here to discuss the house and I'm here to collect my mail. That comment is not necessary and uncalled for." Advisable? Or is that too aggressive?

I'm finding myself not feeling as sad about the house as much. It's a shame but as someone else said here earlier, it's the reality of her decision.

Nice week so far. Had dinner out with best mate yesterday, and got a work night out today. Plans for Saturday as well.
Being productive. Bought some new clothes this week too. Also finished one of my arranging projects, and have contacted my publisher - they're interested in it, so that's another positive thing. Been booked for about 6 or 7 gigs in October-November alone - so should be earning nearly �900 in total in just over 2 months!

GAL is definitely happening.

Originally Posted by Dan35

One thing I've forgotten to mention is that the last time I saw her (17 August), she took a cheeky jab at me.
Somehow we got on to the idea of me meeting someone else in future, and she said, "Well when you meet someone else, hopefully you won't be as horrible to her, and then you can...[rest of conversation]." Or words to that effect anyway.

I didn't pick her up on it, and instead let it slide as I couldn't be bothered to argue, but did give her a look of "that was unnecessary."

If she says something similar on Sunday, I was going to establish a boundary (is that the right term?) and simply say, "we're here to discuss the house and I'm here to collect my mail. That comment is not necessary and uncalled for." Advisable? Or is that too aggressive?

Validate. Don't get defensive. WAS's are incredibly skilled at jabbing where it hurts the most.

W: "blah blah hopefully you won't be as horrible to her blah blah"
Dan: "You are saying I was horrible to you."
W: "Yes! What? You don't think you were horrible to me?"
Dan: "It sounds like that felt really awful and upsetting. Can we please discuss the house now?"

Also, saying "That comment is not necessary" is not a boundary. A boundary would be saying, "If you continue to talk to me in that manner, I will cut off our conversation and leave." Then next time she does it you follow through.

You can't control other people, you can only set boundaries on what you will and will not accept, and take actions to show that the boundary is really there (and not an empty NG threat).

Thank you unchien for clarifying. That's really helpful.

Guess it's about me just being confident to take charge of the conversation as necessary, and not let it descend into her telling me how upset she is. We both know already.

Whilst I am intending to be positive when I see her, how much 'as if' do I give off? Literally acting as though I'm over her completely and loving life? Or simply happy and contented with how things have been going? At the back of my mind I'm thinking if I am too confident she'll think "oh he's over me. I obviously didn't mean much to him then." Or is that the NGS talking?!

You can't control how she reacts to anything you do or say.

NGS will have you changing your words and actions in an attempt to get a certain reaction. You have zero control. Zero. Keep telling yourself that.

For awhile, you can probably expect no matter what you do it will be interpreted as a sign you are the devil incarnate. Maybe it will soften over time, maybe not. You can't control it.

Because this is hard to do early on, we advise PMA and GAL and sort of a "fake it til you make it" attitude. Be friendly, cordial, but detached. Eventually it becomes your natural MO.

If you are worried about descending into a negative R talk, prepare for a short validation and then redirect or walk away. You don't have to sit and validate her pounding away at you repeatedly.

Originally Posted by �Dan35�

Guess it's about me just being confident to take charge of the conversation as necessary, and not let it descend into her telling me how upset she is. We both know already.

Hi Dan,

Rather, accept you don�t control whether she goes positive or goes negative. If she�s upset, it�s unlikely there�s anything you can do to wave it away, but validating and empathizing typically makes us feel understood, connected, and not alone. Note, validation doesn�t imply agreement with her.

That's helpful too CW, thank you.

One other thing on my mind - we'll decide on an agent and discuss the costs etc. I have a strong feeling that she will then expect ME to contact the chosen agent and organise stuff to get things in motion re selling the house.

I see two views on this when I've mentioned this before:

1 - I do the work in starting the ball rolling on the sale. This shows leadership qualities and shows I'm co-operating. However, the downside is that it looks like I also want out of the M as quickly as possible, or don't care enough, or want to get away from her as fast as possible.

2- I suggest SHE gets the ball rolling instead - the reasons being that (a) she is living there, (b) the agents are closer to the house, not where I am at my parents' house, and (c) it's her choice to sell and D.
However, does that look like I'm neglecting responsibility and also appear weak? If I suggest it, I don't know how she'll react - in agreement/neutral or very negative. Should I point out that since she is the one who suggested it, she should do the work?

I am nervous I admit, but I will adopt the 'fake it til you make it' attitude cited above. I have a lot of good things I reel off if she asks.

I assume I need to portray myself as AMOAFWL as much as possible...?

Dan,

quit overthinking things. You need to toughen up. That was the point of my Mencken quote from the other day. You need to get an edge to you. I'm not saying to be disrespectful, but women are attracted to men with an edge.

You can show leadership in a way other than facilitating a divorce you don't want. I would let her pick the agent and stay out of it. It's not hard and she's a big girl. If she wants to be single she can figure it the hell out. Just tell her that she can handle the home sale and leave it at that. If she presses further you say "I thought this is what you wanted". And then say no more. End of conversation, you have somewhere to be and something to do.

OK - so more of a tough love stance with her then? In other words, don't be harsh or nasty, but just firm, assertive but not controlling. Is that right?

That is very out of character for me, so it'll be a very obvious 180 and will probably catch her off guard. Do I need to worry about her perhaps thinking that I'm being deliberately 'closed' on everything? Or just not worry, be the alpha and just let her like it or lump it?!

Hi Dan35,

I agree, she's the one eager to sell the house, so let her do any work. It's not your pet project. I'd agree with the adjectives you used: not harsh nor nasty, assertive and firm about what you do with your own time, not controlling about what she does with her time. Do you need to worry about her feeling X? It's a chance to validate! More like, "Wow, that does sound hard!" and not "Well, if you'd just change your mind.."

You say standing up for yourself is a big 180. Consider thinking through how you'd deal with likely tries from her to regain control e.g., "Aren't we still friends?!", or "This is the final nail in the coffin." or "Then I'm going with a different agent." or "No worries. I know a guy who's always eager to help me."

I honestly have no idea how she might react.

Essentially then I'm saying, "Ok we've chosen who will put it up for sale. You contact them then, and get them to take the photos and get the house online. Makes sense as you're here and I'm not." I'll leave it at that and see what she says.

If she kicks off I will simply validate, won't take the bait, and then leave. I do have plans for the evening anyway (GAL) so I have an excuse to go back home and get ready for that.

Originally Posted by CWarrior

You say standing up for yourself is a big 180. Consider thinking through how you'd deal with likely tries from her to regain control e.g., "Aren't we still friends?!", or "This is the final nail in the coffin." or "Then I'm going with a different agent." or "No worries. I know a guy who's always eager to help me."

If she asked if we were "still friends" - I'd probably say "Yes. We are." and not say anything further, then steer the conversation to something else.

Getting a bit nervous about tomorrow afternoon - I know I shouldn't be, since I won't be there long, but I am.

Perhaps I shouldn't reel off my list of GAL activities, even if she asks? Just give bare minimum answers if she asks 'how have things been going,' to maintin the 'mysterious' idea? She definitely will ask. And I will ask how she has been. I won't go into it much further than that though.

What does everyone think?

Hi Dan,

Originally Posted by "Dan35"

Getting a bit nervous about tomorrow afternoon

It's normal to be nervous in this situation!

Originally Posted by "Dan35"

Perhaps I shouldn't reel off my list of GAL activities, even if she asks? Just give bare minimum answers if she asks 'how have things been going,' to maintin the 'mysterious' idea? She definitely will ask. And I will ask how she has been. I won't go into it much further than that though.

The first time you set a boundary can be upsetting for someone used to getting their way. Strive to hold firm on your control over your own body, and remember to focus on validating her feelings and understanding her position more than justifying yourself. These can be radically impactful 180s, since most people don't do them, the first upping her respect and the second her connection to you.

I don't know much about playing mysterious! In a similar position, I told my partner about one activity I did that week in detail (which was social but not focused on other women) and there was evidence about the place of other activities. Maybe someone else will chime in who focuses more on this.

These are ideas from 1,000+ miles away! You know your own situation. Good luck!

Thanks CW, that's good advice.

I will let her know about passing my exams. That can be my 'main news'.

Just finished my morning exercise. Going to clean my car and then have a shower before leaving after lunch, about 1pm.
Will ensure I look as presentable as possible!

Update on meet up at the house:

[Hadn't seen W since 17 August]

OK it went well. I was pleasant, confident, wore nice new clothes, expensive cologne, haircut, clean car, the works.
I was there just under 2 hours.

She asked how I was and "what's new?" I told her about my exams.
"Anything else?" she asked.
I said I had lots of gigs lined up and would be earning a lot in the next few months. Days out planned. Proper gym induction on Tuesday.

I asked about her. I listened and validated as she talked about the extra work she's had to take on and not enjoying.

She was also talking about how she went out heavily drinking several times and went ot work hungover etc. I was very unattracted to her at this point - she was like when we first met in 2010.

We emptied the dishwasher together while we talked.

Then we stood in the kitchen and talked. She has lots of stuff on too. I listened. I validated well I thought. I felt I validated well when she said she was lonely in the house - her main reason for selling. I said things like "I can see why you'd feel that way" or "yes it must get lonely here a lot being on your own."
She is worried about moving to live with her brother. He has a very small house. She was saying, "I just don't know how I'll fit all my stuff in his house, or how I'm going to run my businesses anymore."

I responded "Well, this is the reality of this decision." She didn't answer me back.

Also she said, "And what will be do with all the stuff in the shed?"

Me - "Find a place for it."

I went to the garage and took some stuff to my car, then got my mail and parcels.

We decided on an agent. I made her email them. She wasn't happy about that.

Later on she said, "this is your house too so you can do some things as well to help the sale. I'm very busy and have a lot on."

[Cheeky! I thought, "what, and I'm not busy?!"]

I then reminded her to pay me a final payment for her Macbook (I bought it on my credit card and she's been paying me back for it).

I said I needed to leave (was meeting my sister for dinner later). I didn't give W a hug when I left, nor did I say "nice to see you" or anything. Effectively, I left by saying, "OK, well I'll be off then. Keep me in the loop about the house. See yah."

I weird thing - I did not feel VERY SAD when I went there today.

I think I came across well - no arguments. We didn't discuss R or D.

Within 20mins of me leaving, she texted to say "Thanks for coming and helping out. I've sent you the money for the Macbook. Does that mean I'm fully paid up now?" Strange as she knows it's an hour's drive to my parents' house. I waited until 8.30pm and just replied: "Yes the Macbook is fully paid up." Nothing more.

If she expects me to do more then I'll say, "With respect, the decision to sell the house is yours. You should therefore lead the sale. I will cooperate, but I will let you drive."

Bravo Dan, sounds like you handled that like a champ! All of that exchange sounds really good mate.

Originally Posted by Dan35

I responded "Well, this is the reality of this decision." She didn't answer me back.

Haha - I use pretty much exactly the exact same phrase too, and there's never a response to me either. Its a bit of a thought terminating cliche.

Keep up the good work mate

Hi Dan, it sounds you handled that really well.

Originally Posted by �Dan�

She was also talking about how she went out heavily drinking several times and went ot work hungover etc. I was very unattracted to her at this point - she was like when we first met in 2010.

Sounds like she�d better come to her senses soon before you�ve moved on.

Thanks both.

Yes I'm pleased with how it went. I'm staying positive.

My view now - I was great for her. It's HER loss she's throwing everything away without wanting to try. She is missing out on the new me. I'm GALing and happy.

Just need to wait for house sale now I guess. I will keep everything up consistently and ensure she always sees this improved version of me as that's who I am now.

Originally Posted by Dan35

Perhaps I shouldn't reel off my list of GAL activities, even if she asks? Just give bare minimum answers if she asks 'how have things been going,' to maintin the 'mysterious' idea?

I know the meet already took place but just wanted to say that you are correct here, you don't want to share your GAL activities with her. If she asks then give the bare minimum. When my XW would ask after BD I would respond with a generic "things are going great, how are things with you?" If she pressed for more info I would just say things like "Oh yes, I'm definitely staying busy!"

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OK it went well. I was pleasant, confident, wore nice new clothes, expensive cologne, haircut, clean car, the works.

Awesome! Did she ask why? If she did a great response would be "I have something I'm going to when we're done here." You don't want to make her think you're trying to impress her.

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I said things like "I can see why you'd feel that way" or "yes it must get lonely here a lot being on your own."

Great!

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She is worried about moving to live with her brother. He has a very small house. She was saying, "I just don't know how I'll fit all my stuff in his house, or how I'm going to run my businesses anymore."

I responded "Well, this is the reality of this decision." She didn't answer me back.

So why did you suddenly stop the validation? "I'm sure that's frustrating but I'm confident you'll get it worked out." Remember, it's not your job to "teach her a lesson". Let life do that.

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I didn't give W a hug when I left, nor did I say "nice to see you" or anything. Effectively, I left by saying, "OK, well I'll be off then. Keep me in the loop about the house. See yah."

Good.

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If she expects me to do more then I'll say, "With respect, the decision to sell the house is yours. You should therefore lead the sale. I will cooperate, but I will let you drive."

The idea here is not that you want her to think you're being punitive, but rather you are just too busy to be her errand boy. I assume you have a financial interest in the house so if this is going to happen then you want to make sure your interest is protected. You don't want to give her complete control because if she sells it at a huge loss then you pay for her mistake as well. So stay involved, but let her drive things. If she asks you to do something reasonable (provide info or such) then do it. If she makes silly demands (such as "this is your house too, you need to mow the yard and pick up all the dog poo") then politely decline and remind her that you have your own place you have to maintain.

Thanks AS.

I didn't list everything no, although I really wanted to. She asked about certain things and I gave information - not in great detail you'll be pleased to hear (!):

I only answered questions where she'd ask about something:

"How have your exams gone then?" -I said I passed my exams and would be getting a pay rise soon.

"What else have you got going on?"
-I said I have lots of gigs lined up in the next few months.
-Gym induction this week

(OK, probably should have just said "Yeah loads of stuff going on. Keeping busy." and left it at that).

"What are your living plans?"
-I just said I'd stay at home with parents and save for the moment. Didn't go into more detail.

My costs are going to plummet significantly, so I'll be able to save quite a bit over the next 6 months or so and build up a nice deposit.

Things I didn't tell her about are that I've applied for a 2nd evening job, IC going extremely well, publisher interest for a piece I've worked on, other financial stuff, trips out to London planned.

Neither of us can afford to immediately move in to a new place alone, even though her sister keeps saying to her "Just buy a new place! You'll have some money!" (in her usual 'just do something coz you can' attitude). We both have very specific needs about what a house must have and how it's laid out - mainly space! - so both of us need to buy the RIGHT house in the RIGHT place. That's worth me holding off on buying immediately in the interim certainly.

I am doing the whole "look good" thing for me. I want her to see that I am doing fine and happy. I am working on portraying a positive look not just with her but with everyone I interact with. I think it worked with her anyway. She didn't comment on how I looked or anything but I felt good about myself and that's all that matters. My sister and her husband and even my mum have said "You're like a different person now. You're much more confident and look better."

My fault for not making that clear. I did validate about her living concerns. I said something like "yes I can understand how you've be worried about that." Then she said something else and I said "that's the reality of this decision."

Yes I'm of course happy to do things like email out info or attend to small matters regarding the house sale. I just don't want her to expect me to do ALL the communicating with the estate agent. We definitely won't sell at a loss - it's been valued higher than what we bought it for. We'll both walk away with a modest five-figure sum each. At least I get the value of my deposit back in full, and pretty much get back the amount I've invested in the house (furniture, bills, garden stuff etc.) over 3 years. I can clear all my debts (not that I have anything significant though, which is good).

I was a bit sad when I got home thinking about how nice the house is. Lovely location and we worked hard at it. But then I thought, I can move closer to my family, and get a GREAT house to myself and make it my own. I reminded myself that I haven't lost everything - I have somewhere to go, have my family, and mates, and my job. I'm doing better than ok.

Good good good that's all very well done! That's some good DB'ing there

Thank you - it felt good not really being in a state of worry for once. Yes I was nervous, but happy with how I handled things. I'm glad I was not too stand-offish, but not overtly emotional.

Not hugging her when I left was hard though. She is the perfect height for me to hug! Plus her hair always smells nice.

Anyway, GAL is working well for me, and I'm looking forward.

Neither of us have heard back from the estate agents yet. Strange as they were very keen to take on the house a week or two ago.

What has been very liberating is not worrying about what she, her family, friends, or work colleagues are saying about me. Since my W has told loads of people about what I did, in various states of detail, I no longer feel any shame.
My IC said, "The shame was driving the secrecy." (similar to what I've read in NMMNG). I have now got to a stage where I am owning my mistakes, and have made massive progress in sorting them out.

I am NOT an awful man. I was great for my W - it is her loss. Despite my mistakes and transgressions, lots of people have come down on my side weirdly, even those who I've told everything to.

Onward to more GAL activities!

Saw a few friends today that I haven't seen in a while - I broke the news to them.
Whilst they were sad, they all said I looked really well considering everything. One said he didn't recognise me, as I was looking and walking in a much more confident manner. Gave me a massive boost today, was a very nice feeling.

That is the power of GAL and PMA everyone!

Originally Posted by "Dan35"

That is the power of GAL and PMA everyone!

Hey Dan, glad your GAL and self-improvement are reaping real dividends!

Thanks CW - and I'd know all about dividends being an accountant! <apologies for 'Dad joke' there>

W texted me this morning to say that estate agents are coming round to the house tomorrow to take photos. I have not replied ,and don't intend to.

Things have been going well lately I feel.

Journal

Had a really good induction at the gym last night. The member of staff I was introduced to took me into an office first and measured me height and weight, then discussed what I wanted to achieve. I stepped on a special set of scales that analyses your body composition; this gives the gym staff a better idea of what to suggest I work on. Apparently I have very little fat on me anyway and a high water content which is all good - plus I have the metabolic rate of a 21 year old (I'm 36).

She worked out an exercise regime and then took me through all the machines she thought would be good for me - it was an hour's workout using 3 sets on each machine, and I worked through it with her support. I was using 40kg on a leg press machine first time off - might not sound much to some, but that's a huge deal for me, as I never thought I'd ever do that, so was really surprised and pleased.

I enjoyed it very much and liked all the machines I was assigned to use.

I get 2 further 'catch-up' sessions with her at two/three weekly intervals to check how things are going. Plus I have a special 'key' that goes in each machine which reminds me how high or low to set the seat so I don't have to remember. I get a parking permit for 3 car parks in the town, and my membership card gets me 10-20% discounts off certain restaurants for meals out!

The atmosphere was good - I said in an earlier post that I was always worried about going to a gym. But you know what - it wasn't very busy (it was 7pm) and everyone was just focussed on their own thing. I just got on with mine. I'm going to do this regime twice a week, then have signed up to 3 classes (cycling, yoga, weights) and will go for a swim on Sunday mornings. So that's six times a week to the gym. Plus I'll keep doing my kettle bells & planks/crunches etc. at home most days, usually when I get up before work.

My mum said this morning before I left for work that she's pleased I'm looking after myself and that I'm talking more and seem happier. Plus my friends are noticing and pointing out very positive differences.

I'm doing all this for me. It's my W's loss - she's given up a great catch!

NMMNG!

Good stuff Dan. It�s a good idea to get a home gym too and develop your own routine

With your house are you both registered owners? Get a title search done to check. Have you both agreed on split of sale proceeds? If not and it sells quickly then safest option is leave proceeds in conveyancing lawyers trust account pending a court order.

See your lawyer about all this.

Yes we're definitely both on the mortgage. We have already agreed everything will be split 50/50 equally - house proceeds, joint bank accounts. We have agreed in writing to not split the balances of our personal bank accounts, or pensions. I've sorted my 2 pensions out - knowing W, she hasn't done this yet. I'm not helping!

We've also mutually agreed on which items in the house we'll take.

Maybe when I have my own place I could get some stuff too - can't afford it at the mo and no space at parents' house!

Dan, glad to hear you went outside your comfort zone on the gym and that it all worked out, hopefully that'll encourage you to seek out other new GAL activities as well!

Thanks AS - yes definitely outside my comfort zone, and it all ended up being absolutely fine!

Planned a few days out in the next fortnight or so. Going to a show in London with my mum next week for example. Just booked a random day off work - I never really do that! Cant' wait for gig season to begin in October - more pocket money!

Little things work.

One thought - my mum has said I shouldn't ignore W too much as it may come across rude.
I'm trying to explain that I'm detaching and letting her get on with stuff.

My mum feels sorry for W as she'll be living in a cramped room in her brothers little house and will struggle to run her businesses after the house is sold. I feel for her too of course - I'm not heartless. But it is her choice to do all of this - I wanted to R and sort things out together but she was not interested. Yes, everything that caused this was down to me. But she wouldn't try.

It was her decision to fall out of love with me in 3 months, stop the M and start D. Or is this one of those 'believe only half of what they say' moments?

What are people's thoughts? E.g. when she texted me to say "someone's coming round on Wednesday to take pics of the house" I did not respond. I didn't think it necessary - I don't live there, I won't see the pics, and wr haven't arranged to meet up to do anything at all regarding anything. I've still not replied and won't.

Hey Dan

Sorry, I didn't mean the mortgage, I meant the house ownership. Not sure exactly what its called in UK, but do a Title search to see if your and the W's name are on the title/deed as registered owners. If so, you'll need to sign and agree to any house sale Contract etc. If not, she could do things without you knowing. See a lawyer to check

With your agreement, is this legally binding in a consent order or whatever you call it in the UK? If not, you may wish to do so to protect yourself. Again, see a lawyer asap.

Yes we both own the house. I believe it was a requirement when we bought it originally.

Had a slight down moment yesterday evening. Thought about W and some nice times together. Then I thought about what I've achieved in the last couple of months and how I've made massive steps, and how sad it is that she decided not to be beside me to witness these changes. I started to feel better. I keep saying to myself, 'it's her loss'.

Originally Posted by DaB35

One thought - my mum has said I shouldn't ignore W too much as it may come across rude.
I'm trying to explain that I'm detaching and letting her get on with stuff.

Well first of all that would be true if this was a typical argument between a couple. But it's not, you've been BD'd. Once that happens the WAS has closed off their heart to you for the time being. There is no amount of pursuit and/ or being nice that will help, in fact it usually makes things worse. That said, you definitely do not want to appear rude, the key is to "lovingly" detach. This is where Sandi's rules come in because they describe how you can detach without being cold/ rude/ indifferent. So read those rules every day as a reminder of how to behave around W.

Quote

My mum feels sorry for W as she'll be living in a cramped room in her brothers little house and will struggle to run her businesses after the house is sold. I feel for her too of course - I'm not heartless. But it is her choice to do all of this - I wanted to R and sort things out together but she was not interested. Yes, everything that caused this was down to me. But she wouldn't try.

Well you are exactly right. You played a role but in the end she was the one that decided to end things rather than work on it. So whatever fallout happens, that is 100% on her. You can feel sorry for her but do not try to rescue her.

Quote

What are people's thoughts? E.g. when she texted me to say "someone's coming round on Wednesday to take pics of the house" I did not respond. I didn't think it necessary - I don't live there, I won't see the pics, and wr haven't arranged to meet up to do anything at all regarding anything. I've still not replied and won't.

Either don't reply or reply with a very simple "OK" to texts like that.

Originally Posted by DaB35

Yes we both own the house.

Good. See a lawyer to discuss your agreement and to have that legally formalised.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander

[quote=DaB35]

Either don't reply or reply with a very simple "OK" to texts like that.

If there must be a reply, I think the thumbs up emoji conveys an even greater sense that you lack the time or inclination to even type ok.

[Changed my username display slightly, in case anyone I know comes across this in google search and can identify me]

Journal

Had a great IC session yesterday. Really examining lots of NGS traits and what we can do to overcome them. My IC feels I've made such good progress that I don't need to see her weekly anymore Also good for saving a bit of cash!

We're not really talking about the porn thing anymore - she feels I've moved on from that and am owning that problem and really have made huge leaps in leaving all that behind. We've been focussing on unlearning certain trains of thought. All the GAL activities I've been doing have really sped things along - even in just a few months. It'll take loads more time and effort but I'm up for it!

Went to the gym last night at about 8 - was very quiet so a good time to go. Only been three times but it's done me a world of good. I'm intending to up my visits to 5/6 times a week doing various things. When I was on the machines I wasn't even thinking about what others were thinking about me, or if they were watching me. I just got there, did my thing, then left.

W texted me this morning (Friday) saying my certificate for my exams has arrived. Bit annoyed as I had asked them to post it to my work address a while ago! I'll ask her to post it on to me, as I'm not driving 40 miles to pick up a piece of paper. Naturally my boss needs to see it, so I can hopefully get that pay rise!

Little update for today:

Having texted me about my certificate arriving, I waiting just over 2 hours, then said:

"OK, thanks for letting me know. Could you please post it on to me? I asked them to send it to work but clearly they didn't. I have a review with my boss next week and need to show it to him." Thought that was ok - polite request, plus reason for it.

She then asked if her phone number came up as her parents are saying her new phone sim was not displaying her correct number. I just said, "Yes number was usual one."

A little later she replied, "Oh that's so weird...[explained problem at length and how she has switched networks again and fed up of constantly ringing up companies]. I will post it on but can't get to post office til Monday I reckon."

I will wait another hour or so and simply reply "Yes Monday is fine. Thank you."

Just checking two things:
1. Should I 'validate' about her phone problem, e.g. "That sounds very frustrating." Or is it not necessary since it's not focussed on her feelings etc. and instead on just a 'thing'?

2. Are my responses ok and is it good that I'm waiting for a while before responding each time? It's getting easier to detach, and I figure if I wait then it looks like I'm busy and not waiting/expecting a text from her all the time.

Hey dan remember to keep everything short. Post issue could�ve been condensed to � ta please post to xyz regards dan �

I wouldn�t validate the phone thing at all.

If she writes war and peace you write spot the dog. If she talks like Shakespeare you talk like John wick.

Yes waiting is very good

Thanks DS.

Yes on reflection I could have made my request much shorter. I'm learning!

OK so ignore the phone thing. I will wait til after lunch then say "Yes Monday will be fine, thank you." and leave it at that.

Originally Posted by DS9

If she writes war and peace you write spot the dog.

Love this ^

Instead of Monday being fine etc just flick her a thumbs up emoji.

Have you read the excellent book world war z? When battling the ghouls, they weren�t winning til they began to �out G the G �.

I don't have a smartphone now, so emojis aren't possible on my little 1-inch screen device!
No Wi-Fi, no GPS, only stores 50 texts (including ones I've sent), no data. It has been BRILLIANT. Had it 4 months now.

I just check my emails in my lunch break at work or at home, and then check facebook (when I do use it, which is not often) or watch YouTube etc. when I'm at home. It's great.
When I go out on lunch for a walk I enjoy the colour of the sky or the sounds of the town etc. much more. Also, I walk better, and slower, with more purpose and confidence. I'm going to keep being a non-smartphone user! Plus it's a nice talking point occasionally.

LIttle Journal

Day off from gym today. Did a bit of work at home instead.

Going to look at various lock-up storage facilities tomorrow to see what my options are.

I'm sad to lose our wonderful house that we really looked after for 3 years, but W decided to fire me so I have to respect her decision, much as I don't think it was the right one. I'm therefore looking at GAL and detachment instead.

My intention is not solely to get her to notice my changes. No. My goal is to continue bettering myself and show everyone that I have improved my outlook on life and general perception of myself, which has always never been 100%. I will be AMOAFWL.

Originally Posted by CWarrior

That's why several of us suspect there's more going on here.

I've been thinking about this for a day or so. There really is no evidence that she was or is seeing someone else. She has never mentioned it, and I believe she is incapable of keeping that a secret. She says "I cannot keep any secrets. I have to tell it to someone. I can't lie." That's the remnants of guilt from her childhood religious upbringing there, and she has acknowledged that is what it is herself many times.

She has expressed annoyance that I'm too quiet and 'don't say any words'. She would not address this like DR explains - "When you don't talk to me frequently about what's going on in your life or your thoughts [etc.], I feel..."
I'd just get "Why don't you speak?!" We wouldn't argue but that was because of NGS - avoiding conflict.

When I would be annoyed at her or she did something that upset me, I wouldn't call her out on it. My fault entirely - no boundaries set. This led to her friends joke that she wore the trousers and was 'in charge' of me. She didn't like that and always said we were equals. But truth is she has a very dominating personality, despite the fact that she has admitted it is a massive front because she is immensely insecure - although she only reveals this when she is extremely upset (like discovering my infidelity and online chats etc.).

This is why I'm sad that she dismissed IC for herself. I think it'd help her enormously. To clarify, I'm not suggesting it to her 24/7!

She is just a "simple soul" (her words) who "sees things straight down the middle - I tell it like it is."

I honestly cannot think of anything further that might be "going on".

Have I missed something?

W has emailed me to say that our house is on the market.

She attached a link. I don't want to look at the link as it might make me upset.

Any advice on how I should respond? And should it be email or text?

I'm going to email back:

"OK, thanks for letting me know [thumbs up emoji]"

No Hi, no Bye.

Originally Posted by "DaB35"

When I would be annoyed at her or she did something that upset me, I wouldn't call her out on it. My fault entirely - no boundaries set. This led to her friends joke that she wore the trousers and was 'in charge' of me. She didn't like that and always said we were equals.

For most, what you've copped to would be an excuse for ending a marriage they're dissatisfied with, rather than an insurmountable reason for ending a satisfying marriage. As you say, many of us have irrational triggers. IMHO, you've owned your mistakes.. and you haven't missed anything you've shared.

Originally Posted by "DaB35"

Any advice on how I should respond? And should it be email or text?

Are there any factors that go against the typical DB advice of a short acknowledgment?

My advice in responding to her letting you know about the house being listed is not to respond at all.

Or, depending on the vibe you wish to give, you could say something like - "Excellent! Let's hope it sells quick! Fingers crossed!!!!! (insert smile face emoji). Make sure you tell the agent we want a very quick settlement period."

I'm actually tending to the latter. Flips the script mate

Thanks CW for your opinion.

Another example of when she upset me
During an argument recently (July) she said "I did lots of things to make you like me when we first got together. I stopped biting my nails [even though she still did it occasionally when we were living together], and I stopped smoking as I know you hate it."

And yet, after a few drinks she would always be grabbing another person's cigarette or vape for a puff. She'd have a 'girls night in' with two work colleagues every couple of months (staying over at one of their houses), and she'd smoke then - she would admit it to me. I don't understand why she'd say "I stopped it" but then would give in to social peer pressure, wanting to look cool, don't know what to be honest, and then just blatantly go against what she said to me. Just one basically but I'd be annoyed at her for saying emphatically that she stopped "for me" and then given half a chance would go against it.

It really irritated me. I have total regret for never saying "When you smoke it frustrates me because you keep telling me you stopped but whenever you're in a social situation you would be quite happy to do it when I'm not around. I don't like it."

Also, she would often go on holiday with her University friends for a week or so every year. Yet she'd then complain to me, "We never go on holiday." I'd feel upset because I'd have happily discussed going away somewhere with her if she wanted to!

I honestly don't know what my irrational trigger would be. I always thought that if my W ever cheated on me physically, I would think long and hard before ending the M and getting D, especially the length of time we've been in a R.

My view is she will certainly be re-writing history with her friends. Probably saying things like:
"Yeah he was really boring wasn't he?" [yet she'd tell me how nice it was that I 'calmed her down' as she 'needed that' in her life]
"We didn't really have much in common" [even though we absolutely did]
"I was tired of always being in charge." [even though I would take the lead on things too, perhaps not as often though]
And so on.

But you know what? I'm not dwelling on that. I know that i'm a good man, and I have so much to offer. It is her loss. She is putting herself in a really awful position by deciding to sell the house, D, give up on M and R. I fought. She said she doesn't want to put the effort in to make things work, as "I've done nothing wrong, why should I bother?"

I do feel I've owned my mistakes. All the GALing I've been doing has really helped so much. I went to the gym 5 times last week. I want to sustain that. The advantage is that I won't see her for weeks at a time so all the gym activity will provide quite noticeable changes for the next time I see her!

Originally Posted by DS9

My advice in responding to her letting you know about the house being listed is not to respond at all.

Or, depending on the vibe you wish to give, you could say something like - "Excellent! Let's hope it sells quick! Fingers crossed!!!!! (insert smile face emoji). Make sure you tell the agent we want a very quick settlement period."

I'm actually tending to the latter. Flips the script mate

Very interesting DS. I had never even considered that.

My initially reaction was not to completely ignore her; it's still 'detached' to a degree isn't it if I give a very short response.

But yes, giving an almost over-the-top positive reaction like that might surprise her. Not sure if she'll see through that and think "Umm why are you saying it like that?"

She announced it in a rather excited way - "Our house is on the market!" (incl. the exclamation mark), like she is really happy about it.

I could reply with "Excellent. Thanks for updating me." Just 5 words there...ok?

Journal

My sister has been taking my mum to IC for about a month. It is not just about me and my M break down but generally she's been feeling under the weather and unhappy about a few other things. It's been really good - the IC is fantastic and very attentive and understanding. It has brought the three of us closer certainly.

I went with mum this week as my sister is on holiday with friends. We have already been together as a group of 3.

It has been a nice safe environment for me to disclose my fears and inner thoughts to her - she had no idea I Was feeling down about myself, poor body image, fear of intimacy etc. She said it's been great to hear me talk so much recently.

One very interesting thing she in therapy was "To be honest, I never thought you would last with W. She always gets bored and flits between things. I predicted that she'd stop things with you, as she wanted to move on to the next thing. Not sticking, not trying." I thanked her for saying it, and it made lots of sense. Maybe she wanted out?

My W always had relationships that never got beyond 2 years before me - she cheerfully admits "At the two year mark, I usually hate being around them, then I dump them." Then, "With you, I didn't get that." Although, maybe she did get it in the 8th year? Not sure. I know my infidelity and breach of trust was a major issue, and I do own the fact that I broke my W's heart. I did.

Again though, my mum's IC said, "But you've not actually physically been unfaithful, and you've not met up with anybody. It does seem too fast, almsot as if she has her own issues clouding her judgement in the background."

My sister and mum had immediately picked up on my W's insecurity within weeks of meeting her 8 years ago ("She talks way too much", "she laughs like she's really nervous all the time"). I thought it fascinating how perceptive they both were.

Have had a few thoughts about W, but then I imagined myself living alone, in my new house, closer to my sister and parents, closer to work, enjoying cooking in my new kitchen, kitting out the house with cool stuff, finally having space to display my almost-100% complete G1 Transformer collection (!), and so on.

GAL - this evening, off to gym. Going to try and up some weights on some of the machines. Also going to book tickets to a 'Bat walk' on Saturday for my sister and I. It's in a wood near town and some expert talks about bats and who runs a rescue sanctuary - I may get to actually hold a rescue bat! - and then we go on a walk at dusk bat-spotting. Should be a fun couple of hours.

Looking at other threads, I seem to see myself as both a LBS and also WWH.

LBS because my W instigated D and decided to fire me from the R and M.

WWH as she did what she did because of my mistakes. I totally accept them and I can only imagine the hurt she felt when she found out everything, and all at once.

I wonder if W has chosen to 'go dark' and essentially doing the let go/drop the rope thing, albeit without any assistance from a board such as this and of course no IC. She is definitely GALing.

Is this normal for me to feel like this - a mixture of spouses who could be in each situation?

Realised I have not really thought about W's family, my nieces, or my W's friends for weeks. They only intermittently appear in my head, literally for a few seconds, as in 'oh yes, those people exist.' I feel somewhat guilty for that - they were such a 'present' part of my life until May this year. Now, not one of them has spoken to me, and yet I don't feel massively upset by that. Should I?

Less and less I'm finding myself worried about what they think of me. My W would have told lots of people what I did - she would have told basically all her family, probably her two best friends (which means their partners will know), and has simply been telling her work colleagues "he cheated on me". They'd all gossip with each other so they will all know now (I used to work there part-time last year too).

I was really nervous about all that but as I mentioned before, as it's all out in the open the shame is no longer there, and with it goes the secrecy. It has made moving forward and sorting myself out a lot easier, like a massive weight has been lifted (apologies for cliche phrase there).

Getting a little down about just how expensive houses are in my parents' area. Even moving a 10-20 miles out seems unachievable at the moment. Waiting for my mortgage broker to get bac kto me on what my options are. It'd be fantastic to be on the way to getting my own place next year but it seems a little out of reach.

Friends are quite busy at the mo so I cannot see them, but am talking on FB messenger to a few at least. Mum and I are going in to London today for an afternoon show; looking forward to it.

Slight downer this morning - got an email from the courts saying the "decree nisi" has been granted and this will become active at the end of October. My W can then apply for a 'decree absolute' - this ends the M officially - 6 weeks after this date.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who is happy with GALing and everything, then something like this arrives and then makes things a bit darker for a brief period.

Is the solution simply to let it happen, get it done, and then be AMOAFWL to an even greater degree?

Great time yesterday in London with mum. Really enjoyed the show, then went to a lovely Indian restaurant in the evening. Home by 8.30. Nice day.

Interesting chat with my mum on the train home - she feels that W was jealous of both myself and my sister.
My W and I were both in the same industry (not any more - I changed career at 31 though I continue to do it as a hobby now) and even W said to me that she felt the 'lesser' of us, that I'd achieved more, was more respected and generally had better skills. She'd of course completely downplay her 2 successful little businesses, in a very niche area that I didn't understand. I'd always have to placate W and give her pep talks on this.

Also, my sister is quite glamorous and very popular. My mum feels sad that W never really spoke to my sister closely as SILs do. She'd never willingly want to spend time with my sister or text/Whatsapp her regularly. I'm not sure if it was due to the distance involved between us physically (i.e. where my sister lived and where we lived). If it was, that doesn't add up at all because her own family live 300 miles away! Being beset by NGS, I never brought it up even though I felt W didn't want to spend time with my family and woudl rather undertake a 5 hour drive to see hers, or a ten-minute drive to see her nearby friends.

Before we got M, my W also would always say "I must be married before I'm 30. I don't want to be walking down the aisle in my thirties!" She got married at 29. My mum and I wonder if this was due to subtle family pressure. Her parents married at 18 and her sister married at 23 and by 24 was already pregnant.

My parents have been more generous to both of us us than her own parents. My parents contributed a sizeable amount to our house deposit - which I'll give back to them once it is sold. Her parents could have given us double that very easily, but they didn't. They are very inconsistent with how they help out each of their 3 children which I find very strange. My parents by contrast have bought countless individual items for my W, and for the benefit of both of us and our house (they bought our sofas etc.). I'm not just talking from a sole financial perspective, but generally.

Also, one thing that really upset me was at Xmas time when we did the 'whose house are we at this year?' discussion. Whenever it was my parents' turn, my W would visibly look disappointed. She even said "It's more fun when it's a [her surname] Christmas." I was always really upset by that, as I felt that she was forcing me not to spend more time with my parents and was secretly wishing she wasn't there. I was weak back then, and did not establish a boundary there. She was polite and everything, but I got the feeling that she'd prefer to be swigging whiskey and talking loudly about politics (yawn) with her family.

Since we separated she has effectively regressed to what she'd do in her student days - heavy drinking, lots of late nights, hangovers, smoking, etc. When I went round the house a couple of weeks ago she was only talking about those kind of things and then worried about her living arrangements. I was not attracted to her. I felt sad when I realised that on reflection when I got home.

As mentioned before, she refuses IC. Ironic since both her and her own sister have been trying to get their own mum to go to IC and she is staunchly refusing too.

Long text from W this morning about 8am:

The smoke alarms in the house are faulty, so need to get them fixed. I gave the electric company her number so she can arrange a time with them. Boiler also needs annual service. Only �75 under this policy I organised when we moved in, but needs doing before house is sold.

She's had to change her phone number - apparently "[she's] had the worst week ever" and forgot to do loads of things (including forwarding some important mail for me this week, which she apologised for).

I'm going to wait a couple of hours before responding.

Should I validate her 'worst week' comment? Something like "Sounds like you've had a tough week. Also must be frustrating having to change your number having had the same one for so many years." Or is that not necessary? Just respond to the admin matters and end the conversation?

Going out shopping with my sister and the dog later today - should be nice. Then gym at 4.30.

Hey Dan

How you doing mate?

All I�d say about her worst week is �sounds tough, sorry you�re going through that. Btw x, y and z needs doing to progress with our property settlement blah blah �. Think of things she can do.

Don�t validate her cr&p week because she decided to regress to bad habits.

Keep your chin up mate.

Hi DS

Thanks - I've just acknowledged that her bad week must have sounded tough. I put that at the end of the email, after I listed all the things she needs to do. She has to read the gas meter, which she's never done in the 8 years we've been together. She has said so many times over the years that she doesn't like doing these kind of things. I laugh inside now when I hear that.

She can sort out the electrician, and she needs to contact the local council about the council tax refund (in UK you pay less if you live on your own, so we are due a bit of a rebate as I haven't lived there for a few months).

Kept it business-like otherwise. Feel better for doing so. Spent half an hour re-writing the email and cutting it down to the bare minimum of words. I don't half waffle on!

Good stuff. Minimalist is key.

When she complains, you think to yourself- dilligaf.

Another text this morning from W about the broken boiler.

Got a short reply to my email too yesterday - she isn't in the house much, so "not sure if [she] can get round to reading the gas meter" - it literally takes less than 30 seconds so don't know why that is such a task for her!
She said "I'm barely in the house anymore, am so busy."

I will reply letting her know that the gas company will just estimate our use then so the bill will be higher for October.

I also want to keep the grandfather clock. I paid for it as a post-wedding present for her, so I'd like it for myself. My parents don't want us to sell it either. I'll just say "One other thing - I would like to keep the clock."

I will then close by acknowledging "Sounds like you are keeping busy" and leave it at that.

***********

It seems like she is also detaching from me too. It feels very strange talking to her in this curt way, when previously we'd be littering our emails with "xxxxxxxx" etc. I do wonder what she's thinking sometimes. Are we both playing the same game - keeping aloof from each other?

My fundamental belief is she's been co-erced and pressured into choosing D by others, and I occasionally feel a little down by the fact that she effectively just 'switched off' her love for me in less than 12 weeks - but then is this a case of "Don't believe half of what they say or do"?? I don't see how after 8 years one can simply stop loving another in less than 3 months - what does that say about how that person viewed the relationship? If I were any other guy, would she act in exactly the same way?

Is she re-writing history with her friends and family, and boasting about how she's 'strong and will be fine. I don't need him.' etc. etc.? I have fleeting moments of feeling frustration at her - admitting to not want to put any effort into salvaging the M, or refusing MC and IC for herself, or just listening to biased opinions from friends/work colleagues/family. What really annoyed me is her work colleagues saying "I took my husband back and now I regret it." She has just assumed her life will play out exactly like theirs.

I wonder what will happen in a few months' time, when D is over, we're both single, house sold, and she's living in a tiny bedroom in her brother's house (she can have a desk or a wardrobe, not both. That's how small it is). Will she feel like she made the right decision?

Should my plan therefore be:
1. Just go with the D, let the house be sold, let us divide up the assets, leave her be.
and
2. Continue to GAL and feel more positive about myself
and
3. Don't talk to her unless she asks something about the house and even then keep it business-like and short.

My response to her email:

******
Hi

I'll ask if Monday a.m. is a good time for [company] to see the boiler. I'll check if they offer any priority bookings.
Monday is the last day I send exact numbers from the meter, so gas bill will just be estimated (higher) in October.

I've decided I would like to keep the grandfather clock, and the light fitting on the landing (assuming I find the old fitting to replace it which I think is still in the shed).

Sounds like you are keeping very busy with everything.
******

Short, to the point, no 'please' when asking about the clock etc., and a little validation that she's busy at the end.

I think it's ok.

Hey Dan,

Let her take her friends advice without it bothering you - dilligaf.

Your 1-2-3 plan sounds good mate!

I'd avoid email comments like the 'sounds like you...' one you refered to above. I'd keep these to when you speak directly and when she raises some issue.

Cheers, D

How's the gym going?

Hi DS

Thanks for the advice. I'll keep that in mind next time I email her back about things and save it for face-to-face occasions.

Gym is going well - at induction they suggested I do my routine twice a week but I've been aiming for 3 times a week. Last week I managed 4 times as some plans I had arranged one day got cancelled, so thought "why not go again". I'm upping some weights very gradually. I'm really struggling with the shoulder press machine though - I can only move 7.5-10kg!! It'll come. On all the other machines I'm using 25-35kg, and 50-60kg on the leg press. Might not sound huge to some, but that's a massive leap for me, and we all have to start somewhere!

I've only been going for a fortnight, but feeling differences already, so I'm excited about what the results will be after a couple of months.

Yes I would say 90% of the time I'm not bothered about what her friends are saying. Definitely much higher than a few months ago when I couldn't sleep. I've noticed going to the gym, going for walks every so often, and just being less anxious overall is making me sleep better and longer, I feel better generally, and I am feeling more confident when I'm walking around in public. Encouragement from my parents and sister is helping too.

Originally Posted by DaB35

It seems like she is also detaching from me too. It feels very strange talking to her in this curt way, when previously we'd be littering our emails with "xxxxxxxx" etc. I do wonder what she's thinking sometimes. Are we both playing the same game - keeping aloof from each other?

The LBS detaches as a trick to try to get the WAS back at first. Eventually they detach for real, but it takes a lot of time to get there. The WAS on the other hand WANTS to detach. It's what they want from the moment of BD. So while you see it as a game or strategy, she sees it as her moving on.

Quote

My fundamental belief is she's been co-erced and pressured into choosing D by others, and I occasionally feel a little down by the fact that she effectively just 'switched off' her love for me in less than 12 weeks

It is extremely hard to believe, but it is accurate. She really HAS switched off her love for you. For now she wants S and D, not because of what others are telling her but because it really is what she wants. I know it's hard to believe that the person that was madly in love with you can be like this now, but this is your reality. She may very well change later, but it won't happen anytime soon. The sooner you understand just how far gone she is the easier it will be for you to truly detach.

Quote

Is she re-writing history with her friends and family, and boasting about how she's 'strong and will be fine. I don't need him.' etc. etc.?

Yes she is. She believes her narrative for now. Later she may very well wonder why she did it and what she was thinking.

Quote

I have fleeting moments of feeling frustration at her - admitting to not want to put any effort into salvaging the M, or refusing MC and IC for herself, or just listening to biased opinions from friends/work colleagues/family. What really annoyed me is her work colleagues saying "I took my husband back and now I regret it." She has just assumed her life will play out exactly like theirs.

Whatever others are telling her doesn't matter. WAS's surround themselves with enablers. They are drawn to people that agree with their narrative and they move to cut people out of their lives that argue against what they are doing, even if it's their own family. A lot of LBS's want to blame people for "helping" them but what they don't realize is the WAS is engineering it all. She is finding people to tell her what she wants to hear.

Quote

I wonder what will happen in a few months' time, when D is over, we're both single, house sold, and she's living in a tiny bedroom in her brother's house (she can have a desk or a wardrobe, not both. That's how small it is). Will she feel like she made the right decision?

Here is what will probably happen- you'll keep finding ways to temp check her. Every time you do, no matter how small, it drives her farther away and convinces her splitting is the right thing to do. Eventually you'll decide she really is done and you'll go about building a life without her. You'll get out and GAL, you'll meet someone new, you'll start dating and enjoying yourself and realizing you're a pretty good catch and there's not just one "soul mate" for you in the world. THEN she'll start missing you. You're no longer "good ol' reliable plan B". She'll see the value in you that she blocked out of her mind. She may very well start temp checking YOU. But by then you'll be done and moved on and not sure you want to open yourself up to all that pain and misery with her again.

Quote

Should my plan therefore be:
1. Just go with the D, let the house be sold, let us divide up the assets, leave her be.
and
2. Continue to GAL and feel more positive about myself
and
3. Don't talk to her unless she asks something about the house and even then keep it business-like and short.

Yes exactly!

Thanks AS - I agree with basically everything you've said.

I am finding detaching a bit easier now. Not seeing her all the time - as sad as it is from time to time - speeds this up somewhat.

I like the thought of 'believing a narrative'. I'm guilty of that too though, I appreciate that.
She has more enablers than me. The people I've spoken to have called me out on my mistake as appropriate, but also been supportive of my GAL and moving forward with things.

I'm just getting on with my 3-step plan!

Hey Dan

Get a smart/sport watch like a Garmin Fenix to track your fitness. Otherwise, keep getting pumped!

Be like that dude in Capt America who started skinny and became the Cap!

Where the body goes, the mind will follow, and so will other interesting people!

Originally Posted by DS9

Where the body goes, the mind will follow, and so will other interesting people!

Thanks for this DS - I like it.

My Dad's birthday today so the four of us (parents, myself and sister) are out for a nice meal. Sister's dog is coming too.

Have not seen W since 15 September. Last contacted her last week regarding bills (see above).

Have been really focussing on myself, been looking at houses and where I could live, sorting out money, savings etc. Got lots of new clothes. Living with parents has meant I've got hundreds more in the bank after all my bills have gone out than usual - not driving as much as it's a 5min drive to work and back rather than a 75min one. Shoved that spare cash straight into savings - it's gotta go towards a new place!

Gym is going well - upped a few weights again last night so will continue with that. Got a 'check in' session with one of the gym staff next week so they can assess how I'm doing etc.

One worry I have is storing my instruments - I have to use a secure storage lock up in a nearby town. Quite expensive, but hoping once the furniture I'm keeping goes into a house the cost will eventually go down.

I'm still wearing my wedding ring, though I take it off when I go to the gym. What are people's thoughts on this? I think that I may wear it on my right hand after D. It's a nice ring. Or do I just put it in a drawer never to see the light of day again? I don't really want to sell it.

Had a great IC session today.

We're now reducing to once a month - IC believes I've come such a long way since we started sessions at the end of May, and I seem content with all the changes I've been making. She is very pleased with my progress. She thinks I should be wrapped up before Christmas.
I've owned my mistakes and my past, analysed them, sorted them out, got help, and am becoming better, happier person. Massive boost today, helped me along.

The song Life Goes On by The Damned seems appropriate here:

"Life goes on and on and on
If you think it's all gone wrong,
Go on and on and on...
...And always remember
This is the happiest day of your life.
...Take your time
Who cares what fools say.
I don't mind,
'Cos this is my day -
I'll live it my way today."

I interpret those words to mean: when things are going really badly, just keep going. GAL basically. You do what makes you happy. And you'll be fine.

Next GAL activity lined up - as my side-line job is an orchestral percussionist, I have to play lots of instruments each their own idiosyncrancies of technique. One thing I've never got round to doing is learn how to play castanets properly - holdign a pair on each hand, for that real authentic sound (in an orchestra you usually play them attached to handles or mounted on a flat wooden board for ease). Well, I bought some *proper* pro castanets from Spain this week, in a really lovely brown-reddish wood. They'll arrive next week, and the guy I was emailing from the shop for advice has directed me to some excellent YouTube vids. Next time I have an important excerpt, I can impress the conductor and my colleagues with my newly found technique! That's the lovely thing about GAL - do anything, as long as it's positive!

A good day today!

Had to go to the house today to pick up some things (W was out).

Didn't feel like home. Didn't feel much emotion whilst I was there. Good sign that detaching has worked?

It�s working DaB. It�s a process and it needs time. Keep walking forward.

Forwards always.

I've actually been taken aback by how many people have said to me "It's her loss. She is missing out on being with the best version of you right now. We can see how much you've changed for the better in just a short space of time. She'll regret it." Makes me feel a little sad for her, but then I think "forwards".

Life goes on and on and on...

Bit of advice needed please:

Text from W today.

One of our windows has shattered in the house - weirdly it's on the inside pane. So, it's not a break-in but more like a fault with the pane - perhaps the wood has expanded/contracted and the glass is apparently shattered evenly all over. Also our smoke alarms aren't working and the wiring needs checking.

W initially asked if I knew anything abotu the window. I replied about 30min later with a short "No, didn't know anything about that", acknowledged that it was "frustrating", and then said "I think the windows have their own separate warranty."

She replied about 8ish tonight saying "OK can I ask you to sort that out? I'm feelign completely overwhelmed at the mo and I'm going up to my parents tomorrow for a few days and signed off work for a bit so I won't be around to sort anything."

I haven't replied to this yet.

Her parents live about 200 miles away. She has been signed off work so many times in the last year.

I don't want to say "No, you sort it out," because it doesn't actually relate to the sale of the house. I'm happy to contact the people concerned, and then just make them come round on a day when I know she'll be working from home.

Do I validate how she's been "overwhelmed" and signed off work?

I'm a little annoyed at the situation - she's overwhelmed because normally, if things were all fine between us, I'd just sort this out anyway, and it'd be sorted within a few days and tradesmen would be booked to turn up to the house to fix everything in a timely manner. She seems to be struggling with day-to-day house stuff. Not sure why she needs to be signed off again.

I'm ok about contacting people and booking a time slot. That's it though - I'm not taking time out or booking leave off work to just drive up to the house to let the workmen in to do that they have to do. She can do that.

Help please

Have taken my wedding ring off. Feels veyr strange as I had gotten used to wearing it. I might put it back on occasionally. I do miss W still, of course I do. But she has decided this and although it's not what I want I have to go with what she's chosen.

Originally Posted by "DaB35"

Help please

I see your logic: this is house maintenance not related to the sale of the house, the house is a shared asset, and you're suggesting splitting the work 50/50--you book the workmen and she lets them in.

Sounds completely reasonable to me.

Yes my thoughts exactly.

Should I validate how she's been overwhelmed and is taking time off work?

I have not replied to her text still. Should I respond once I've booked someone to come round to fix things?

Originally Posted by DaB35

Bit of advice needed please:

She replied about 8ish tonight saying "OK can I ask you to sort that out? I'm feelign completely overwhelmed at the mo and I'm going up to my parents tomorrow for a few days and signed off work for a bit so I won't be around to sort anything."

I haven't replied to this yet. Help please

Not up to speed on your sitch, but I would text:

H:"W, I believe it best if you sort it out."

R2C

OK, so you think I should push the whole thing back to her?
My only hesitation is that is nothing to do with selling the house. If we were together and everything was fine, we'd both be organising it anyway, and I'd call them after agreeing a time with her to be in etc.

D,

IMO you should validate her feelings on being overwhelmed.

As for the window I would use is it as a 180 opportunity. If you never took care of that kinda stuff take the opportunity to 180 and do it. If you always took care of it then push back on it.

Truth of matter is either way it changes nothing.

LH - ok thanks.

Is something like "it sounds like you are finding it difficult to juggle everything, what with the extra work you've taken on. Sounds like a few days' break would do you good." ok?

Yes I would normally put it off, so a 180 for me would be sort it out today/tomorrow and update her on that.

Really useful to get everyone's views on all these little issues. Thanks everyone who is commenting and offering advice.

How about "I am sorry you feel overwhelmed. Sounds like a few days break will do you good".

Had a chase text from W this morning...

"So can you sort out the window? I need you to. Please let me know. Thanks."

The 'I need you to.' was interesting. I interpreted that as someone in trouble, rather than just ordering me about. Guess when we were together she'd just assume I'd do all of this without her input. Now I'm no longer in the house, it's falling to her to do more ringing up, which I know she hates.

I replied "Yes. I've spoken to them...[1 sentence update]." Then I validated about her feeling overwhelmed, and left it at that.

Good DaB. Give her space.

Originally Posted by DaB35

....normally, if things were all fine between us, I'd just sort this out anyway, and it'd be sorted within a few days and tradesmen would be booked to turn up to the house to fix everything in a timely manner. She seems to be struggling with day-to-day house stuff...

Opportunity to 180. Things ARE NOT FINE between you and her. Just use this as a learning experience for the NEXT call for you to help.

She has fired you as her husband. Let her feel the pain of being without you.

She takes care of the house she lives in. You take care of the house you live in.

It is extremely important that you project to her that you are extremely busy and extremely happy. This is fake it till you make it.

This is the MAX i would do to help her:

H:"W, here is the number of the guy I would use: (xxx)yyy-zzzz"

She "needs" you? I don't think she knows what "need" means.

R2C nails the response. Or you can always just not respond too. She doesn't want you, remember? You aren't going to be Mr Handyman forever.

Woman:"Will you buy me a drink?"
Alpha Man:"Absolutely, after you buy me one."

Beta man"Sure, what do you want?"
Woman "Expensive drink"

Be the Alpha.

Hey Dan

How you been mate? How's the body transformation going? Good to see you're going to up the weights.

You seem to be coming back frequently with what to respond with in relation to her texts.

If I remember, during the M you were the go to guy to get stuff sorted. You're not that man any more though.

Again, I would either ignore her, or just give her a phone number of someone who can help. Do you need her to do anything that is a joint enterprise in wrapping things up? If so, tell her what needs doing when you reply ie "Here's Tom the glazier's phone number. BTW, please sort out X, Y and Z and let me know when it's done. Regds, D35". Keep flipping the script.

If you want to be cheeky, next time an sms like this comes through, respond within a few minutes and say "I'm busy at the gym. I'll get back to you when I can.".

I interpret "I need" as her trying to boss you around. Don't let that happen mate.

Cheers, D

Hi DS

Gym is going well. Let's just say - for the gig I had at the weekend, I found it a lot easier to move my timpani from the car to the venue! Have a 'catch-up' session with someone at the gym on Wednesday to see how things are going. I have been able to up the number of reps for each exercise machine. I'm getting better at the shoulder press too, which is increasing my confidence and am doing well in the cycling/spin class too.

You're right - previously, in the M I would basically do everything to sort stuff. I'd find out who to call, contact them, arrange times, let W know, and organise payment (then she'd reimburse me half once done). I'd sort out all the finances, bills, utilities etc. I even did both our tax returns - I stress that I did that not because of NGS, but it's what I do for my job, and her return is very easy, even though she has no idea about tax and is rubbish at keeping records - I would get her to sort it all out first before I even touched the numbers, to her immense consternation!

Now, for this smoke alarm/window issue, all I'm going to do is get the contact numbers/find out who to actually speak to (I'm not sure if this is covered by our warranty with the builder or not), then give those tradesmen W's number so SHE has to arrange a time for them to turn up.

I have no idea what her schedule is now, so it is totally pointless for me to have to call a tradesman, they suggest a time, I have to contact W to check if that works for her, go back, change the time, check again, etc.
As the famous meme goes, "Ain't nobody got time for that!"

I spent the rest of the weekend with my mum looking at houses in the town where my sister lives. Seems ideally placed - not too far from work (10-15min drive which is fine), much closer to family, etc. No contact from the estate agents regarding our current house sale, so assume no-one's viewed it yet.

I don't think there are any matters that is a joint thing to be wrapped up - not yet anyway.

Sometimes things go well and I am confident that what I've replied to is appropriately business-like, using the 'as if' mentality, feeling that I'm detaching enough etc. Problem is, other times I do worry about how to respond (like in this instance).

Good stuff Dan

Glad to hear gym is going good! Keep it up. Make it like it's a part of everyday life. I find it energises me!

I've now doubled my dumbbell weight from the start weight I had. If you're not doing them yet, try concentration curls - great for biceps!

I fully get you about doing stuff not being about NGS. I did that too. It was part of what I saw our roles to be. She was good at the grander scheme things, I was good at the nitty gritty stuff. To me, that's not NGS, but rather you both getting stuff done. Where NGS crept in for me was my constant availability to do or buy or get whatever she wanted, without much reciprocity. I'd sometimes get 4 or 5 calls or sms's a day to do something or buy something! I was naive, and thought this is what a good husband does. In my job, I heard countless tales from wives whose husband's were lucky to mow the lawn every second weekend. I vowed not to be that type of man.

Yeah, just be very judicious and sparing in responding or guiding her. She can google tradespeople. That said, it may be an opportunity to demonstrate you're AMOAFWL. In my sitch, a few months ago, I handled a rogue tradesman my XW had engaged in her renos. She called me as he was trying to rip her off, and she didn't know what to do (her not knowing what to do was very unusual). Anyway, I got more involved as it became clear he was a rogue, but at her request. I ended up going over and 'talking' to the guy. Told XW and S to wait in the backyard while I handled him. I needed to raise my voice unfortunately. Anyway, called her back after he left, and told her I'd handled it, then I left. NGS or AMOAFWL? The latter I think. Keep an eye out for that type of opportunity Dan, but be very sparing. They'll remember it.

Hi DS

Thanks for your reply.
Had my catch-up yesterday. They said I was doing well; they've made a second workout routine for me so I can mix up two routines now, and using different machines.

Yes, she was good at organising our social lives, I'd do the behind-the-scenes house-running stuff. It worked really well.

I agree regarding NGS - I'd feel obliged to do things for her to keep her happy. My worst thing was rather than do something nice and not say anything - e.g. clean the house or prep food for cooking before she asked - I'd do it and point out soon after that I'd done it, looking for approval from her straightaway to 'validate' my good actions. I'd always try to 'impress' her and maintain that outward 'perfect man' persona. Thing is, I know I am a good person - but I realise now after IC that I was way too passive in the R - not just this one but all previous Rs too.

I am focussed on being AMOAFWL - I think a one-off act similar to you helping with the rogue trader is a good idea. Being absolutely sparing is key though, so rest assured I won't go looking for opportunities like this.

Now, the whole reason for her wanting D just seems so far away and remote, because I've been addressing it and have sought professional help to deal with it, with very successful results. Seems such a distant thing now. I keep telling myself, 'it's her loss'.

New thread:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2867858#Post2867858