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The last straw

Posted By: Zip

The last straw - 09/05/19 03:07 PM

I find it tough to be here but like others, I am at the last stages of M. Been M for 32 yrs and with for 37yrs. Hard to explain all that has led to this other than trust issues. 15 yrs ago W told me she couldnt go on with me. She stated she was confused and gave the ILYBNWY. This came as a complete shock to me. We had just bought a farm and became friends with the prior owner. I found out just before settlement he was going thru a D which is why it was for sale. The sale was outside of a normal purchase as it was being auctioned. Reason I bring this up is it created a lot of correspondence with him vs thru an agent. My W became very fond of him and his son who was close to the same age as D2. I didn't think much of it but found he and W were spending time together during the day when everyone was at work or school. She just admitted to an EA with him this August due to her IC stating she should come clean. She denied this at the time and we both went to IC and MC. I spent 1 1/2 yrs in IC and we went to MC for a couple of months to work out what i thought were the issues. She said I didnt treat her right and she was much apposed to adult films we would watch. Porn was a big part of her issue which she never shared with me before . We ended this practice as a couple.

Intimacy was sparse and I eventually would seek relief from the internet. She found some correspondence with other women which was just that. There were other times she accused me having a relationship with a co worker and an email which was questionable. The co worker and I traveled out of state for a few days at a time and another co worker felt it important to call my W and spread a rumor of us drinking wine on a bed together. The rumor passed through 3 parties prior to getting to my W. The email which was 3 yrs ago was a contact I was receiving business information and had a bit of a questionable tone to it. I explained why it was written but she apparently never accepted this. After this email had been found by her, all intimacy stopped. Its been a very rocky 3 yrs with me begging for us to work on these issues. I pleaded for us to go to MC. She wouldn't agree stating it didn't work the first time when we attended 15 yrs ago.

Our Ds were living at home but D1 found a house where she can take her horses. Looked as if D1 and horses were going to leave this spring. I felt W was protecting D1 and her hobby but thought she was looking to leave the M after this took place. I pretty much begged her to see a MC and she agreed on Valentines day to do so and would call to set an appt. I waited until the end of March to ask where she was in setting an appt. Sh said she is too busy to set an appt. let it go until the end of April and got same answer. told her I can call to set an appt. All along we are getting closer to D1 moving her horses in July if all goes well. I set an appt for the middle of May, We went to the meeting and within 15 minutes she made it clear she wanted a D and has talked to a L. I was devastated although reality was pointing in that direction.

Left the MC and headed home later that eve. We had a chance to speak that night and I told her this was not what I was expecting at all. She said we haven't been married for 3 yrs. I pleaded my case on why we needed to work on the M and not throw it away, she seemed to have a change in action. Still nice and showing some attention to me. A month went by and she was warming up to me but still not interested in going back to MC. All this time she is GALing and losing weight. Looking really good but still no time for me. Then I made a big mistake. She found pictures on my phone. It was of her as I havent seen her naked for 3 yrs, I took pics unbeknownst to her and i invaded her privacy. She blew up and said thats it, Im out and want a D. This was the first of August.

I know I had done wrong. No excuses for my actions. Although it wasnt of another woman, or an affair or any other action which would have caused the same outcome, it was just as bad. I have asked for forgiveness and have on a couple occasions pleaded my case but at this time, I have stopped doing so, understanding that this action does no good. I am now at the mercy of what she wants as to moving forward.

D1 got engaged a few days prior to this happening and went away only to come back and ask to have her weddiing at the farm. Prior to her asking, we explain what happened, ( being transparent per W) and that we are going to D. THis went over horribly. Both Ds were present as well as fiance for this talk, Quite uncomfortable but i felt if W wanted me to tell them, then I would own up to my actions. Both Ds asked how we got to this part in the M and why we never seeked help. I told them I have asked and W wouldnt go. The Ds seemed to accept that the both of us had attributed to the demise and held no ill will towards me. In fact it has strengthened the relationship with D1 and opened up a better communication w D2 who is tough to deal with on a good day. I think W thought they would dis own me but that isn't the case up to now.

No paperwork has been filed by W yet. We had 3 conversations that should be noted. the first was 2 weeks ago, one last week. and another last night. Unfortunately, W is not much on conversations, in fact it becomes a monologue. She accuses me of verbal diarrhea and all I hear are crickets.

The first meaningful conversation started with if she would like to talk about anything in the past, present or future, she finally opened up a bit. the takeaway was" she didnt know where the D is"...no confirmation on if that meant paperwork or emotional status. " She doesn't feel love"....not sure if she meant from me or for me. "All i want her for is sex"....told her if that's all i am here for, I would have left a long time ago. "I have a wall around me that was starting to come down until the pic issue and now cant trust you ever again"....no answer to that one but heard it loud and clear. I did feel the conversation went better than expected as she did say some key points with no clarification. At least a starting point.

She was showing some softening through the week and when I asked her for a hug she said sure I can do that which felt good. Later that night she left for a few days away at the beach and gave me another hug. Seemed she may be thinking things over and there may be some hope (a dangerous feeling).

A conversation on the 3rd day away was a conversation I had when I called her to see how she was doing. My emotions were not in check and as she said, while she was sitting with her lady friends, I was Grilling her and Interrigating her on issues that were totally unacceptable. She eventually hung up on me after I told her she should just stay down there as long as she could. I would even bring her the laptop so she can work from there. This didnt need to be said but emotions got in the way and I was going to pay the price for my verbal diarrhea. I pretty much fell apart the rest of the evening and the next morning. I went to church and came back still in an emotional wreck...only to see her in the next 30 minutes in the driveway. I went up to her and hugged her and said " I am so glad to see you". This is 15 hrs after telling her to pretty much not come home. What a roller coaster.....for both. She kinda looked at me as if I was crazy, go figure, and then later said she can't live like this anymore.

We had another conversation last night which got interrupted by D2. Gist of it is she feels she cant ever get trust back enough to love me and cant see moving forward. She hasn't filled out paperwork due to me telling her I wasn't going to give the necessary docs to her. I dont recall ever telling her this. She said she had some of it filled out and when I asked for it, she said it was on her computer but didn't offer to get it for us to discuss. I was glad for that. After D2 left the room, we tried to pick up on the conversation again but was not going anywhere as she was too tired to talk. I have seen this all too often and knew it was heading to a "verbal diarrhea monologue" which I really wanted to avoid, My tone changes and volume elevates when trying to get a point across and knew it had started to head that way. We left it on a not so good note with no real time to pick it up again.

I am leaving for a couple of days which will be good for both of us especially by avoiding her having to do anything for my birthday. Soo..... there are other points I have left out which probably plays in on both sides but the most of my doings are out there. I still love her and want this to work for the future but I have found the lack of any affection, romance, and intimacy has been tough to go without. Why I still love her is beyond me but the fact is I do. One thing for sure is there will be a change, either with or without her is yet to be determined although she holds the cards and it doesnt look like the plans are not for me to be included in the future.

Suggestions are most welcome and my thanks for your time reading my sitch as well as your input.
Posted By: Cadet

Re: The last straw - 09/05/19 03:45 PM

Welcome to the board

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htm

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!

Get out and Get a Life (GAL).

DETACH.

Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.

Have NO EXPECTATIONS.

Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:

I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072

Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414

Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566

Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554

Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619

Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Posted By: Ready2Change

Re: The last straw - 09/05/19 04:46 PM

Hi Zip,


Most guys here talk WAY TOO MUCH to their W. Lean to Listen to UNDERSTAND her FEELINGS and validate.

Most guys here want to push their POV. Do not do this. If asked, respond "I am not sure" or "I have not decided" or "I have not thought about that"...IE postpone your answer. Come here and get guidance.



Read this thread and all the threads linked in the first post:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2846984


Hopefully we can guide you through this difficult sitch.
Posted By: CWarrior

Re: The last straw - 09/05/19 05:23 PM

Hi Zip,

I read your situation from beginning to end. Wow! Tensions between you have been building for so long. Like many of us, you tried pleading first, and can cross that off as ineffective.

Originally Posted by "Zip"
I went up to her and hugged her and said " I am so glad to see you". This is 15 hrs after telling her to pretty much not come home. What a roller coaster.....for both. She kinda looked at me as if I was crazy.

This is where Ready2Change's advice comes in to be slow to express what you want. Early in my sitch, I asked for a 2-weeks no-contact. When I changed my mind 2 days later, she'd already made alternative living plans.. for 3 months. You're not the first nor last to make this mistake and set your relationship back.

When relationships are at a tipping point, small mistakes can have big consequences. It's often better to do nothing for a day than to do something wrong when they're in such jeopardy.

Victor Frankl: "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom."
Posted By: AnotherStander

Re: The last straw - 09/05/19 07:56 PM

Zip, welcome to the forums! You're applying way too much pressure to her. All the R talks have got to cease immediately. Quit trying to hug her and grill her and talk to her and snoop on her. Stop all of it! What should you do instead? NOTHING. Pull back. Leave her alone. Give her time and space. Find solitude and ask yourself what you want from a spouse, then look at what you've had for the last X years. No sex for 3 years? Brother if there's no medical reason for that I would have helped her pack and held the door open for her a LONG time ago. Why are you putting up with this misery? DON'T! Detach and leave her to her mess. You are worth more than this. If you effectively detach and find yourself then she may very well realize what she's losing and have a change of heart, but as long as you remain desperate and needy she is going to want nothing to do with you. Have you read DR yet? Read it, read Cadet's links, read other sitches here. Ask questions. But most of all leave your W alone for now.
Posted By: Zip

Re: The last straw - 09/06/19 08:30 PM

thanks for the input! I am going to try posting this short answer as I wrote out a response last night and it didn't show up
Posted By: Zip

Re: The last straw - 09/06/19 08:45 PM

Going to try again as the message may be in the holding due to me being new.

Ready.... I agree about myself. When you dont get an answer but instead just a blank look back without any response, one seems to start rambling. I am very guilty of this which NEVER ended well. You would think after all these years, I would have gotten the message. Unfortunately, I came to the realization that what i was doing was insanity....with the same results. Trying real hard not to fall into this trap again. Especially after reading Another's post.

Cwarrior....Pleading got me nowhere....period. Actually, it did get her to a MC which in the first 15 min she said clearly...I want a D. Only took 3 yrs with a push from this past valentines day to see a MC on 5/20. I guess she finally felt it was time to pull the plug....but she says "there has never been a plan".....hmmmm

Another.... I have read your posts a lot and respect and value your input. Thanks for not sugar coating it. I am taking your advise strongly. It is my BDay today and got texts from W wishing me a great day,,,, finally responded with a thanks. She has called and sent her to VM ..... THIS DETACHING [censored]!!! I am working through the pain of loving her even for her faults....but..... I dont deserve this S@#T and there is a glimpse of anger starting to set in.

There are parts I probably didn't share just because of the length of the orig post. My D1 is now engaged just days before hell broke loose. She wants to get married at the farm which is putting a lot of pressure on all of us. I am hell bound to have this happen for her regardless of the W. THe issue is I can not see co habitating under the same roof for 10 mos with W in the house. She wants out..... then go..... I think she has said to me 3-4 times that she can not see her self being able to be the wife i want her to be. I guess the patience and detaching must be the only option.

Got one book and waiting for the other to show up. will start reading it asap as well as posting

THANKS ALL for your input. Sure wish I wasn't here but I am and appreciate your help.

Z
Posted By: Cadet

Re: The last straw - 09/06/19 08:48 PM

Originally Posted by Zip
the message may be in the holding due to me being new.

There are none in holding and your post count is 3 and there are 3 showing so maybe you never pressed post - IDK.
Posted By: Zip

Re: The last straw - 09/06/19 08:59 PM

Thanks Cadet....u know some of us are just technically challenged!
Posted By: Zip

Re: The last straw - 09/07/19 05:08 AM

Was up early this morning outside of not sleeping well, I wanted to be gone before W and D2 got moving. Managed to get out of the house before seeing them. Interestingly enough, D1 and her fiancť texted me birthday wishes early in the am. Shortly after my phone was constantly going off. With nonstop texts....it waste W....sending a dozen b-day gifs to me. I thought if I got a "happy bday" woulda been more in line but it seemed she was over doing it considering the circumstances. I was quite surprised and a bit shocked. I answered back a simple thanks. She also wanted to know what time I was leaving town. Told her after work and left it at that. Last was a call from her in the afternoon which I texted an answer that I couldn't talk. No VM was left and I didn't call back. I am thinking this is detaching...if she needed me, she could have left a Vm for me. She didn't .

Will be back home tomorrow afternoon and will see how the reaction is from her. I have plenty to do to avoid any interaction and will follow Anther's advice. I heard your advice and agree that's what I need to do.

Sunday, I was inviter to watch the football game at a mutual friend's house. May be able to go and escape being at home but not sure if it would be right to do being it is an old classmate of the W. It could put them in the middle if I go and she finds out.....thoughts on going?

Another.....I never took into consideration my worth as she has diminished my internal value. I was a go getter and hustler. Worked hard to provide and now looking back, I see the fruits we have for that work. She will get half and I am not bitter over that, at least not yet. She does well and has had the opportunity to save a substantial amount of cash unbeknownst to me until very recent. She did tell me but is reluctant to disclose the actual amount. I find it hard to see this as a piece of a master plan that has been put in place. I do find it odd she told me about it. It would have been discovered and mane she felt she better disclose a little at a time while planning her exit. I got a little off track but wanted to say in writing a list of what I want in a W, she falls short in quite a few. It's all love driven. Would be interesting to see her list as well.

Enough for now....any input would be much appreciated.

Z
Posted By: Zip

Re: The last straw - 09/09/19 01:45 AM

Went out of town Friday evening without any communication outside if texts from her wishing me H-Bday and wanted to know when I was leaving. She did call late afternoon and I let it go to vm which she didnít leave one. No contact Saturday until I got home in the eve. No more than a couple words about how the dog was doing. No other conversation. I had to start the convo. Not her. She is apparently mad and I am as well. Thinking how I have bee used for years just to protect D1 and D2. Communication has come to a temporary halt.

I understand how in the past I have been accused of talking too much. Got good advice to leave her alone and stop talking. I agree My monologues havenít gotten me anywhere. The new me is finding this hard but working on it. Itís very different due to her usually keeping everything close to the vest and never verbalizing, and I express exactly what is on my mind and then some. Always a negative outcome. I am wondering if this is what I should be doing because the lack of communication seems counterintuitive and not a positive approach.

Still fighting emotions. Go s from wanting fix the R to being mad and ready to through in the towel. I know I donít want the D but quite certain paperwork is on the way. Being in limbo [censored]. I am trying to find patience But it is tough. Keeping convo to a minimum but the old me would be to push for answers, which resulted in a negative outcome. I feel there is nothing I can do. I am trying to stay busy and keep my mind off the sitch but really fighting it. Is this normal?

Zip
Posted By: CWarrior

Re: The last straw - 09/09/19 03:02 AM

Originally Posted by "Zip"
No more than a couple words about how the dog was doing. No other conversation. I had to start the convo. Not her.

Did you HAVE TO start the conversation?

Originally Posted by "Zip"
I understand how in the past I have been accused of talking too much. Got good advice to leave her alone and stop talking. I agree My monologues havenít gotten me anywhere. The new me is finding this hard but working on it.

Good work! Change is hard. If monologues are one of your trademarks, it's going to be a noticeable 180.

Originally Posted by "Zip"
She is apparently mad and I am as well.

Awareness is good. You're mad, and with good reason. Do have know coping strategies--e.g, exercise, meditation, and/or individual therapy? I find those help process anger, so we can act as per our values.

Originally Posted by "Zip"
I am wondering if this is what I should be doing because the lack of communication seems counterintuitive and not a positive approach.

I double-checked Sandi's 37 Rules. They do encourage the left behind partner to shush. They also encourage them to listen intently and validate all the walk away spouse has to say when they're ready to speak. I've found our communication has improved greatly since I've done a little more listening to my partner.
Posted By: Zip

Re: The last straw - 09/10/19 02:46 AM

cwarrrior....no I didn't meet to but walking through the room and heading up for the evening I thought I should say something and not be rude. Felt asking about the dog would be a simple response and it was. It was more to see if she would even acknowledge me. She did. Guess I shouldn't have said anything?

I am in IC since the last of May when she said she was done. I am finding it helpful but this whole process feels like slow motion. Don't get me .wrong in that I want it over, it's just sooo much in limbo. IC says lay low and react slowly. It's just the waiting to see what' going to happen. No paperwork....no conversations.....no nothing except knowing she wants out...I think. I am quite sure she is done and due to D1 planning a wedding at the farm has put her plans On hold. I'm not even sure of this. That's the issue....I know nothing regarding her plans. I do know I dont want to live this way for the next 10 months.

Looking into joining a gym close to work. The farm takes a lot of my time and I am reconsidering keeping the livestock and being finished with that part. This will give me more time for my GAL.

Conversing with the W Is a struggle. She doesn't open up. One of the main issues that has gotten us to this sitch. If I stay quiet, to will def be a 180 for me and who knows when she will speak?

Good news is she wanted to know where I would like to have my BDay dinner....need to decide but felt that was nice.

Guess I need to continue to chill.....

Zip
Posted By: Steve85

Re: The last straw - 09/10/19 01:05 PM

Zip, hang in there man. I know what you are going through, been through it myself. Continuing to chill is the best thing that you can do. Also, start living a life of honesty and integrity in all your dealings. This is a new self-discovery I have moved to the top of my priority list. The kind of person you are is not the person you show to others. The kind of person you are is the person you are when no one is looking. Guess what, that latter will always end up shining through, good or bad. Change who you are at your core, and then be yourself. It can't help but to have an impact on others.

Remember sandi's rules. Learn them. Know them. Use them. My favorite is to always be upbeat and pleasant, no matter what she does or doesn't do.
Posted By: Zip

Re: The last straw - 09/11/19 03:08 AM

Thanks Steve! This is some crazy stuff...I am struggling a lot trying to do the right things but find just a simple quick hiccup will derail any positive movement.

Her issues were trust based and I am not sure how to show a 180 on this. I want to be transparent which is important but I am taking advice to chill and leave her alone. She will ask what I have planned for the day most mornings but I havenít given her a rundown on all I have planned due to limiting my conversations with her. Unfortunately I have a lot of freedom in my job being self employed and in sales. I also had my assistant retire in June. That was good and bad as she would try stirring up issues with my wife which I was not aware of. W told me she wasnít playing that game with her. Issue is she has to believe what I tell her without any checks and balances. I donít know how to rebuild the trust when I am to chill and limit all conversations with her. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Another interesting issue is for those who are aware of the sitch says move on. No intimacy for 3 yrs and you are still in love with her is crazy. Move on and find someone who will appreciate me. Then I am reading DB and feeling this M could and should be saved. At 58 do I want to start over, well not really. I have to decide if itís worth investing time in trying to save the M or move on and deal with the pain now. This isnít taking in her side which D papers have not been filed as far as I can tell. Itís status quo for her in the back bedroom, no rings on and doing what she wants to do as usual. I donít see where she has to move on as she is content as a roommate and acts like the M is done. Not much difference outside of moving out of the MB.

She wanted the invoice for the annual propane costs so she could pay it. If you want a D, why are you willing to pay the $1200 bill if you may be leaving? She paid it last year but I have paid it the 5 yrs prior. This is confusing to me.

If I did the BD, I wouldnít be shelling out a lump sum that doesnít have to be paid....or I would pass it on to her. Makes little sense and makes me wonder if she is going to D me or not.

Trying to chill, and chill, and chill..... very confused by her actions. I need to really work on myself and leave her alone as stated earlier, itís just a downfall as I want to discuss where the sitch is but canít.

Need to work on me....

Zip
Posted By: Zip

Re: The last straw - 09/11/19 11:00 PM

I am struggling with how to stay quiet and avoid any communication, outside of what she may start, and trying to build trust. Seems counterintuitive.... R2C and AS were here and could use some support in this as Iím a bit lost.

Yesterday, I did text her confirm if she didnít have dinner planned, I would pick up something and put on the grille. Did that and she complimented me on dinner then she cleaned up as I had to take care of horses. Overall a good night as I finished in the barn and returned to the house to find D2 and W in bed. No convo this morning and just a text from her telling me she watered horses. I thanked her and nothing since including coming into the house this eve. Just back to non communication which is why we have struggled in the past.

Steve....any suggestions on actions instilling trust and integrity are greatly appreciated!

Starting to waffle about whether itís worth the fight looking back at the history and knowing what a mountain I need to climb with no promises that #1. She is going to even participate and #2 I donít want to be 60 and starting over.

Maybe some vets could shed light on this as I am fighting it.

With D1 planning on her wedding here in June 2020, I am wondering if I am just being played as I have been. She works from home and no interruptions to her, status quo. Lives in the back br and all is good for her. Time is on my side but itís tough to know whatís up esp not communicating.


She said last wed night she will never be able to love me again like a wife. Said she had paperwork on her computer to fill out for the L but stated I told he r I would not give her the tax returns etc....something I donít recall saying. Figured she would give me a copy so I can give her what she needs but there has been no attempt to talk about it since. Starting to think either she can file regardless which makes sense to me and that her L isnít getting the paperwork complete in a timely manner......or......is she stalling? Either way, I am thinking itís outside of my control SO LEAVE IT ALONE......harder said than done.

Feeling lost in this......any help would be greatly appreciated.

Also how do I copy quoted portions so I can answer ....sorry for the learning curve, lol!

Zip
Posted By: Zip

Re: The last straw - 09/11/19 11:04 PM

Been reading other threads and DB book. Not done yet but I go from thinking this can be saved to whether it should be saved.

Finding advice is always available.....itís the good advice thatís hard to get...... Family and friends are not always the best as I am learning and reading.

Zip
Posted By: CWarrior

Re: The last straw - 09/11/19 11:10 PM

Originally Posted by "Zip"
Starting to think either she can file regardless which makes sense to me

Hi Zip, in the USA she can file for divorce without any input from you. I filed myself without any attorneys--took 2-3 days effort and ~$200. If/when you get served, you don't have to do anything, but probably should!
Posted By: CWarrior

Re: The last straw - 09/12/19 12:07 AM

IIRC, the initial filing announces intent, puts temporary restraining orders in place for both regarding finances and kids, and tells the served party their rights. It doesn't include any sort of settlement.

Posted By: Ready2Change

Re: The last straw - 09/12/19 01:02 AM

Originally Posted by Zip
Also how do I copy quoted portions so I can answer ....sorry for the learning curve, lol!
There should be a quote button at the bottom of each post, next to the reply and report buttons.
Posted By: Ready2Change

Re: The last straw - 09/12/19 01:04 AM

Originally Posted by Zip
I am struggling with how to stay quiet and avoid any communication, outside of what she may start, and trying to build trust. Seems counter-intuitive.... R2C and AS were here and could use some support in this as Iím a bit lost.
You should act like you do when having a conversation with a cashier. Pleasant, but not personal.
Posted By: Zip

Re: The last straw - 09/12/19 02:08 AM

CW, this is what I thought and am going to meet w a L next week. This is #2 L, the back up plan which I learned years ago in business. Got a logical one to start but the bulldog is in my back pocket if needed and now blocked from W retaining her. With that said, itís pointing to W stalling.

When we had the few conversations, she says she canít move on but has an excuse for everything such as moving out, selling property, not having a place to buy as she isnít going to rent...on and on. Mind you, she has put away a six figure nest egg she slipped up and told me about that she has been working on the past couple years while I am keeping everything afloat. Talk about a slight trust issue. She could buy a place for cash for what she wants. Furthermore her sis moved to a shore home and still has her home in town which is sitting vacant 80% of the time. Suggested she move there and her response was, ďnot in that town, besides you could move to your brotherís houseĒ. Yup, I could if we didnít have livestock to tend to.

Other issues have surfaced w D2, she has no respect for me(a learned trait from W) and W and D2 are BFFs. This crap is getting very frustrating and the disrespect from her is becoming a part of the overall issue. W will not engage in supporting me nor has she for quite some time. This family has become disfunctional and W has driven it to this point. D1 says just ignore them many times as she has had her fill with them as well. Just one more reason to move on. I donít see any way to reverse this with W so controlling. I feel beat down by all of this but Iím going to chalk it up to a bad day and hope for a better day tomorrow.

Was hoping life would be easier at this age.....
Posted By: Zip

Re: The last straw - 09/12/19 02:25 AM

R2C. Thanks for the advice.

So for example, tonight, I came in from the barn and W was on her iPad and watching tv, I walked through the room, made eye contact and kept going to the BR. No convo at all. She knows I am out happy w D2 and her and she said nothing so I said nothing. This is becoming a standoff. I guess if she has something to say, I can politely answer, otherwise keep moving?

Have a B-Day dinner for me she has planned for tomorrow night. Not sure who but guess itís D1 and fiancť, D2 and BF, W and I. Right now, Iím ready to cancel it. Why be with W and D2 with their disrespect for me.

Think I need to sleep on this, I prefer to avoid conflict and go. Nothing good will come of me cancelling although, there is going to be a time Iím not gonna give a s#@7; and let them know Iím done.

My brain is feeling like a pinball machine with thoughts all over the place.

All of your advice is well appreciated and is sinking in....thanks so much.

Zip
Posted By: Zip

Re: The last straw - 09/12/19 08:26 PM

How do you try rebuilding trust and validate if you are trying to show with actions and not words?

Could use some help, if some of the vets can offer some advice i would greatly appreciate jt !!
Posted By: unchien

Re: The last straw - 09/12/19 08:56 PM

Hey Zip - First time posting here on your thread.

Steve85 gave you great advice on rebuilding trust:

Originally Posted by Steve85
I know what you are going through, been through it myself. Continuing to chill is the best thing that you can do. Also, start living a life of honesty and integrity in all your dealings. This is a new self-discovery I have moved to the top of my priority list. The kind of person you are is not the person you show to others. The kind of person you are is the person you are when no one is looking. Guess what, that latter will always end up shining through, good or bad. Change who you are at your core, and then be yourself. It can't help but to have an impact on others.

Once you identify your core values, tap into them, and act with integrity whether you are alone or with other people, it will shine through.

This also means trust is not regained overnight, unfortunately. And it may never be regained. But you certainly can't regain a healthy trust without taking these steps.
Posted By: Zip

Re: The last straw - 09/13/19 04:54 PM

^^^^ agree with what Steve said. i am working hard on this but there is no barometer nor instant gratification as to whether anything i do is positive. Working on ME.... so I get it isnt and shouldn't be about effect.

As far as regaining trust. Probably will not ever be with W.

Sitch has slid even more as conversation is at a bare minimum. Had B Day dinner and she got some presents for me which was very nice. Interestingly enough, no card. Guess she didnt want to say anything which a card would be doing just that and would include her signing, meaning she was endorsing the card's message.

Struggling and now wondering if D is on the way from either one of us. Starting to believe this process is just drawing out the pain and suffering for more to come in the future. NOT what i want to think but starting to find it more apparent in my thought process. May be just a bad period in the whole sitch.
Posted By: sandi2

Re: The last straw - 09/13/19 08:55 PM

Wow! I was chomping at the bit before I had read a dozen lines. Zip, I don't know you but I know who has been in control of this relationship, and it wasn't you. There is a lot more than trust issues going on here.

Quote
She just admitted to an EA with him this August due to her IC stating she should come clean. She denied this at the time and we both went to IC and MC.


So, was she and OM in an affair for 15 yrs and it's just now coming out? If they were spending that much time together while everyone was away........I think it's safe to assume they took the affair to the physical level. A wayward wife gives trickled down truth, and she usually will admit to a lower level of the actual truth. In other words, if she was pressured to tell you about OM, she's going to imply they were mostly friends, then finally admit that she did have a little emotional thing for him.

Okay, so why was she seeing an IC before anything came out about the affair?

I understand the MC, but why were you in IC? I'm guess I'm asking if both of you were seeing IC for the same issues. Were you seeing the same counselor?

Quote
She stated she was confused and gave the ILYBNWY.


The only thing that causes a wife to be "confused" about her feelings for her H........is when OM is in the picture.

Quote
She said I didnt treat her right and she was much apposed to adult films we would watch. Porn was a big part of her issue which she never shared with me before . We ended this practice as a couple.


How did you not treat her right? I suspect that was a load of b.s. She is a wayward wife who is guilty of infidelity, so she was scrambling to come up with some excuse. However, there was some reason the both of you were seeing IC. What was it?

Quote
Intimacy was sparse and I eventually would seek relief from the internet.


Sparse, huh? How long had you been suffering a sexually starved marriage before she permanently cut you off?

Quote
After this email had been found by her, all intimacy stopped. Its been a very rocky 3 yrs with me begging for us to work on these issues. I pleaded for us to go to MC. She wouldn't agree stating it didn't work the first time when we attended 15 yrs ago.


Look Zip, the woman never intended to work on the MR. She was searching for something to use against you, and she found the email. She used that email for her handy little excuse to stop having sex with you permanently. Here's the thing I want you to consider. You went 3 yrs with no sex from your W. Did she give you a variety of excuses over those 3 yrs, or just shoot you down? Were you waiting on her to initiate? To make matters worse, or it seems to me, that you bought into her b.s. and became the underdog, while she called the shots in the bedroom, and in the family dynamic. She not only had no respect for you as a man and as her H, but demonstrated enough disrespect that it taught her D that's the way to treat a husband. Now you have two females in the home disrespecting the male leader.

Quote
I pretty much begged her to see a MC and she agreed on Valentines day to do so and would call to set an appt. I waited until the end of March to ask where she was in setting an appt. Sh said she is too busy to set an appt. let it go until the end of April and got same answer. told her I can call to set an appt. All along we are getting closer to D1 moving her horses in July if all goes well. I set an appt for the middle of May, We went to the meeting and within 15 minutes she made it clear she wanted a D and has talked to a L. I was devastated although reality was pointing in that direction.


Well in my opinion, the weight of the trust issue is due toher behavior, unless I've read it wrong. She has managed to twist things and cause you to believe that you are the bad guy here. While you would have went along with whatever she said, if you thought it would warm her blood a little. Of course, we only have your side of the story, but I'm just saying I see a man who was leaving the MR (and especially the sexual relationship) up to his W, and begging her to get help. She has been deceitful, disrespectful, manipulative, and dishonest. You say you are being transparent. Has your cheating W of 15 yrs done any transparency work? My guess is no, b/c she would feel it invades her privacy, and I'd also guess her affair had zero consequences.

Quote
Left the MC and headed home later that eve. We had a chance to speak that night and I told her this was not what I was expecting at all. She said we haven't been married for 3 yrs. I pleaded my case on why we needed to work on the M and not throw it away, she seemed to have a change in action. Still nice and showing some attention to me. A month went by and she was warming up to me but still not interested in going back to MC. All this time she is GALing and losing weight. Looking really good but still no time for me. Then I made a big mistake. She found pictures on my phone. It was of her as I havent seen her naked for 3 yrs, I took pics unbeknownst to her and i invaded her privacy. She blew up and said thats it, Im out and want a D. This was the first of August.

I know I had done wrong. No excuses for my actions. Although it wasnt of another woman, or an affair or any other action which would have caused the same outcome, it was just as bad.


WHAT?!? You took a secret photo of your naked wife (who has refused you sex for three yrs) and that's just as bad as having an affair??? Who are you listening to? Wait.......I know, it's your W! The W who was looking on your phone. The W who would have had a fit if you looked on her phone, right? The same W that had no consequences for her A.

I want to tell you something. Your W is still cheating on you. You need to get your b@lls back and stop acting like some guilty wuss. Stop acting like you were the one scr@wing around. Stop apologizing and begging. It's not attractive. How would an alpha male have reacted when his W reacted to seeing her photo on his phone?

Quote
She was showing some softening through the week and when I asked her for a hug she said sure I can do that which felt good. Later that night she left for a few days away at the beach and gave me another hug. Seemed she may be thinking things over and there may be some hope (a dangerous feeling).


No Zip, she was playing you.
Posted By: sandi2

Re: The last straw - 09/13/19 10:50 PM

Continuing from my previous post.........

Quote
Was up early this morning outside of not sleeping well, I wanted to be gone before W and D2 got moving. Managed to get out of the house before seeing them.


Perhaps you think detaching means to avoid. I will copy a short version of the definition of DB detaching in my next post. You are working way too hard at avoiding your W and D2. (BTW most posters here identify they daughters by age, rather than order of birth......just in case it confuses anyone.) I read Another Stander's advice and I don't think he meant to completely avoid any possibility of seeing your W. IMHO, he was saying to just back off and stop trying to fix things with the methods you were using.

Quote
She will get half and I am not bitter over that, at least not yet. She does well and has had the opportunity to save a substantial amount of cash unbeknownst to me until very recent. She did tell me but is reluctant to disclose the actual amount. I find it hard to see this as a piece of a master plan that has been put in place.


Believe it. She has been a wayward wife for quite some time, and if there's one thing WW's do.....it is to look out for #1. Yes, she has been sneaking and planning for a while. I don't know if the law can force her hand (should you divorce), but I would be checking with a lawyer. Don't tip your hand and let her know what you are thinking. Is she employed or was this your money she was stashing?

Quote
I understand how in the past I have been accused of talking too much. Got good advice to leave her alone and stop talking. I agree My monologues havenít gotten me anywhere. The new me is finding this hard but working on it. Itís very different due to her usually keeping everything close to the vest and never verbalizing, and I express exactly what is on my mind and then some. Always a negative outcome. I am wondering if this is what I should be doing because the lack of communication seems counterintuitive and not a positive approach.


Like I previously stated, I don't think the advice was to taken to mean you never communicate or that you try to escape the house without running into her. As the LBH, you may struggle to stay balanced when you read advice. I've been shocked to discover how some LBS's interpret the 37 rules, but I think it is partly due to the emotional stress they are under (It just couldn't be the way they were written. smile ) Also, after you are here for a little while, you'll learn our personalities and writing styles.

People like you and me have the desire to talk. We need to talk. That's how we deal with life is talking about it. I am married to a man who does not talk. I would try to have a conversation and it would always end with me having a monologue. If I had to guess, you are wondering how on earth the marital problems will be resolved if nobody is talking. You and I see talking as communication, but everyone doesn't agree, especially if emotions come into play. I think you said something about your voice getting stronger/louder as you spoke to her. I like to see men with good strong voices, but did you know that sometimes if a man speaks softly but seriously to his W, it has more effect than yelling? I am not talking about a timid voice, or one full of fear or dread. I mean getting close to her, looking her dead in the eye and softly making a statement. Don't get weird or anything. You could start to practice controlling the tone and volume of your voice, when you are talking to others, as well as to family.

Let me ask you a couple of questions. Do you feel the urgency to talk with your W, so as to find out where she stands or tell her what you think? If she's still talking divorce, will you beg again for her to go to counseling, or will you give in to what she says? Based on what I perceived about the dynamics in your relationship, she is the leader and you follow whatever she tells you. If I'm wrong, please tell me. Just b/c she isn't the main talker, doesn't mean she isn't the one in charge. This happens a lot when the H has the mentality that a "happy wife is happy life".

Quote
I am struggling with how to stay quiet and avoid any communication, outside of what she may start, and trying to build trust.


Well, I've said enough about the talking, so I'll try not to repeat myself. Do you have a plan? Do you know what you really want? Not what she says, but what you want? She knows how to play this game much better than you, right? She can wait you out. I don't think a standoff is good, except to cool down and try to get control of emotions. I think that's how a lot of couples get into a sexually starved marriage. They are waiting on the other spouse to initiate, so they go for years in a standoff. BTW, I'm not telling you to go talk to her. Just hear me out, first. You need to know where YOU stand about her deceit and manipulation. You say something about trying to build trust, but what you are referring to is you having to earn her trust. Am I right? You see yourself as being the spouse who did something as bad as cheating. Well, when I came to the board back in 2007 as a wayward W who was still in an Internet affair, I was told by several LBH's that there was NOTHING worse than betrayal. If I tried to explain my situation, they shut me down (or tried to) and said if I wasn't happy in my M that I should have done the decent thing and get a divorce. Imagine that! I mean, nothing is worse than betrayal? That was the consensus of those posting to me at the time.

I said all of that for a purpose. Know who has betrayed whom by cheating with another person. If and when the subject arises, know exactly what you will not tolerate in your MR any longer. You need to study boundaries, b/c you really need to protect your feelings from this woman who manipulates your mind. Your self respect has flat lined, and the women in your household (especially the W) will never respect you until you can respect yourself. As already noted by others, you deserve better. Maybe she does, too. These issues did not pop up overnight, so I wonder if there is something deeper going on.

Anyway, don't get into a hurry to talk about things, b/c you need to do some serious soul searching about what you wish you had.....from what you really have. For example, you said you didn't know why you should still love her, but you do. My question is do you love the girl you married, or the woman she became? Know your own heart, before you try to convince someone else to change theirs.
Posted By: Zip

Re: The last straw - 09/14/19 10:05 PM

Hi Sandi...thanks for joining in. I greatly appreciate your input and advice. I will try to get the answers regarding the questions you have posted.

The A went for 5-6 mos from 12/03 to 5/04... when it was exposed. She denied it and stated she didnt know what she wanted. Further conversations were that he was a great dad....not taking into consideration that he was in a divorce which the youngest son was heading to another state and he would not be able to spend time with him. the window for him was closing and it was easy for OM to come to the house and have his son play with D23 who was 8 at the time.

She denied any PA or EA until 8/3/19 whereby she said it was an EA and needed to come clean per her current IC. Still denies any PA... this doesnt surprise me. WHo Knows. We both then saw IC and a MC after this all blew up. She saw IC for 3 mos and I saw IC for 1.5 yrs as I was the reason for this in her mind. MC was for 3 mos and things changed whereby we were getting back to a better M. Finally had intimacy 4 mos after the incident... which was strongly urged by her IC and the MC. Not what she wanted to hear but.... We saw different IC thru this.

The IC was based on the " I dont know what I want (OM or Me) and need space"

In treating her right, she felt I put her at the bottom of the list of who came first. She felt I was putting, work, church activities, coaching the Ds and a Civic group all before her. She was on the bottom. I didnt see this but she felt this way.

As far as the adult films, she never stated it as a problem until she had a convo with OM who said it was wrong and there shouldnt be a TV in the bedroom. She bought in and I agreed to end it based on the MC and her stating it was wrong.

As far as a sex starved marriage, I would have to say probably 6-7 yrs based on what i feel should have been much better. She found correspondence/ email which she felt very permissive. this was during the sparse intimacy period and shut it down July 2016. there was one other time in Jan 17 that we had sex. That was it. Asked for her and she was never willing and always a reason. I would get mad and that is how it ended, I try again and she wanted nothing to do with me. Too tired, come to bed after or before me... anything to avoid it.

I bought into her BS.... with no way of moving it off dead center. She refused to do anything about it and said all her friends are in the same situation and she is no different. told her that is them, not us... still didn't matter. YOU finally get so angry, then tired of being angry, that you give up. Try looking for the good and hope for a better time. I also heard about the menopause issues that play a role in it. She has no medical issues outside of the norm needing lubrication but nothing out of the ordinary.

I have given her reasons for trust, ie the email and correspondence she saw....all by snooping but... still I did wrong there. then the pic issue is what she feels went WAY OVER the Edge...and endorsed by her support group.

Not sure how an ALPHA male would have handled it...maybe tell her its of you and get over it? Not sure but seems most who know think it was horrendous, unless they come clean with having pics of their own of their spouses. Males dont see it as a D ending issue, Females think the absolute worst of me and it holds all the merit needed to say bye.

How did i see it, well, yes it was wrong. Really wrong, Does it warrant a D, well with all the past showing she has been quite protective, it gives her the excuse to paint me as the horrible H. I dont think it is the end all, but even this morning with a rare conversation, it breaks her down discussing it. I validate the best i could. Told her I am sorry and see how devastating it has been to her. And that I can't imagine the hurt I have caused her.

She has stated it would have been easier if I had an affair. Yes from her and not others although my IC feels it would end most M.

I agree there was no consequence paid for her A.... which by the way... just became that out of her mouth last month.

I totally agree that she has been planning an out although she can play me in saying there was no plan... the monies she has saved is from her being self employed, We both are self employed in different businesses. She doesnt tell me what she makes nor does she ask me of my business. We handle certain bills which she has the food, H/E loan and one other loan for a lot. I handle the Mtge and most insurances. My monthly is much heavier than hers which allowed her to sock monies away. She still states it wasnt being hidden, I have never seen it as it is in her business account. I am not on it nor do i snoop. I know i will see it but it hasnt been offered even up to this morning when I asked about it in a conversation i will explain below.

I do want to talk about the R and where we stand as well as finding out what is going on. She said she was giving a 30 peroid to see where her feelings were. A great time when I am trying my best to just stay sane. I was not aware of this timeframe and sitting on the sidelines waiting for paperwork. She used the conversation we had while she was on the beach to decide it would not work moving forward as she cant live like this anymore.

Will I talk to her and beg to save the M or go to MC....no. I told her were i am and she needs to decide for herself if she wants to move forward., I need to work on what I want. Wrote a list of what I want and she is hitting 25% of the list at best. Could she be at 80%, yes, will she? Who knows but probably not at this time. W will need to step up and agree to working on this 100% which isnt going to happen. PEROID. Her feelings, pride, and what she wants will not let her do this, IMHO.

Our convo today was that she wanted to RSVP for a wedding, She saw a post on FB, which is the first and last i will do. it said " as I look in my past, i found as one door closes that i wanted to stay open, there seems another always comes open that is a better option to what I thought was good" not exactly that but it was pretty clear that I was saying if she is leaving, i will find another door to move forward though. IT WAS NOT A WISE POST. She pretty much told me I shouldnt go as i may stir up drama. This is what took us to where the D stands.

She said the L was putting a doc together to allow her to buy a home while we were working out the details..... WHat does that mean???? I thought it over and realize after the conv was over, what she was saying is she will file for D with the doc saying she can purchase a home thereafter and i will not be on the deed. this is saying she is moving on....

I saw her this afternoon and told her i now know what she meant by the docs and it was to be attached to the filing, She then said she didn t know what she was doing and she wasnt going to talk about it. this would have been a good time to discuss being we has an empty house. She said she wasnt discussuing it and I said thats fine, when you feel up to it, let me know, not an issue waiting and I just dont want all the hard feelings working through it.


I need to decide where I want to go, If the W could meet somewhere in the middle and work on the M, I am open, She told me she paid the annual propane bill which i found odd if she is leaving. Then yesterday, she wrote a sizable check for my quarterly est income tax bill which we have split out for each of us to pay with our portions spelled out which we both pay our portions. She said since i pay the health ins, she would pay my taxes for me. I am not sure what she is doing nor do i understand why she is unloading this $$ when she is planning on leaving.

FInding the last 48 hrs have been mixed messages. NO IDEA but worried that she may just be playing me.

Meeting w the L this week. Will have a better feel for whats going on to protect myself,

VERY CONFUSED...

Sandi, Hope this helps and any input or clarification will be greatly apreciated!!!

thanks to everyone else as your advice is very welcome.

Z.
Posted By: sandi2

Re: The last straw - 09/17/19 01:40 PM

I forgot to copy & paste the DB definition of detaching.

*************************

Definition of Healthy Detachment...(Posted by DBer Peanut originally)

I. Detachment

Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.

Attached, we take personally ALL that is said, not said, done and not done.

When our ego gets wounded, we are more inclined to do/say things that undermine our goals.

When we are Detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love.

Met with love (known as to lovingly detach*), we are in a position to diffuse the situation, and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.

On the flip-side, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.

Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not indifference. It is not the mind saying, I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.

It is the natural acceptance that we alone are responsible for how we act. We cannot control another person, but we can control how we respond to them.

We are responsible for our own actions (no one else is).

We are responsible for our own happiness. (No one else is)


PART II Detachment (found around here)

Detachment is the:

* Ability to allow S the freedom to be him/herself.

* Holding back from the need to rescue, save or fix S from being sick, dysfunctional or irrational.

* Giving S "the space" to be him/herself.

* Disengaging from an over-enmeshed or dependent relationship with S.

* Accepting that I cannot change or control S and it was never my duty/job to do so.

* Establishing of emotional boundaries between me and S, so that both of us might be able to develop our own sense of autonomy and independence.

* Process by which I am free to feel my own feelings when I see S falter and fail and not to feel responsible for his/her failure, faltering or learning.

* Ability to maintain an emotional bond of love, concern and caring, without the negative results of rescuing, enabling, fixing, demanding or controlling.

* Placing of all things in life into a healthy, rational perspective. (=Balance is a piece of detachment).

* Ability to exercise emotional self-protection and prevention so as not to hang on beyond a reasonable and rational point.

* Ability to let people I love and care for accept personal responsibility for their own actions and not bail them out when their actions lead to failure or trouble for them.

* Ability to allow S to be who he/she really is rather than who I want him/her to be.

IF & WHEN THESE ^^^ FACTORS ARE ADDRESSED, -

We could have a great friendship, or a great marriage. And those are treasures.
Posted By: CWarrior

Re: The last straw - 09/17/19 04:19 PM

Hi Zip,

It's exhausting just reading all you're going through. Living through that would be H-E-DoubleHockeySticks.

Originally Posted by "Zip"
Wrote a list of what I want and she is hitting 25% of the list at best. Could she be at 80%, yes, will she?.

It won't happen unless and until she wants to be married to you. When she wants out is definitely NOT the time to unload on her a list of things she's doing wrong / should change to be with you.

It's amazing how much a partner will change when they choose you!

Originally Posted by "Zip"
"as I look in my past, i found as one door closes that i wanted to stay open, there seems another always comes open that is a better option to what I thought was good"

Nope. What was your goal in sending it? You can always share ideas here before implementing them. In these situations often sitting on your hands is better than doing something rash.

Originally Posted by "Zip"
Our convo today was that she wanted to RSVP for a wedding, She pretty much told me I shouldnt go as i may stir up drama. This is what took us to where the D stands.

Was SHE invited or were YOU invited? If you were BOTH invited, she decides for herself if she goes, and you decide for yourself if you go. This shows you don't control her and she doesn't control you. You are both individuals free to make choices! A wedding is a social occasion where you get to catch-up and meet people.

Originally Posted by "Zip"
I saw her this afternoon and told her i now know what she meant by the docs and it was to be attached to the filing, She then said she didn t know what she was doing and she wasnt going to talk about it. this would have been a good time to discuss being we has an empty house.

Except, DB'ing says to drop the pressure and relationship talks. Case A: She's lying and knows exactly what she's doing--then there's nothing to talk about. When she files, you'll see what she's asking for and can approve or reject it. Your lawyer will advise you of your rights and take any protective measures necessary. Case B: She's being honest and doesn't know what she's doing, as evidenced by the mixed signals. You're pressuring her to make a choice when it probably won't go in your favor. Why?! Drop the pressure.

Take care, Zip!
Posted By: Zip

Re: The last straw - 09/17/19 10:29 PM

Been a bit busy at work as well as around the house. Been meaning to give an update.

CW, agreed, should have never posted it but guess we learn. Since then, seems she is in a much better place towards me. Communication has been much better for some unknown reason. No conversation regarding the wedding but we both were invited. I think she prob rsvpíd by now but not sure what she sent in. Not going to assume anything.

W made calls to me yesterday to discuss dinner which I found odd....not at all normal. Then again today to tell me she was meeting D23 and a feriend of hers to watch a HS soccer game. This is a change from her telling me I have lost any right to ask her what and where she is going or doing. I greatly appreciate her letting me know and feeling the communication is helping us both. Maybe a reason but I canít read into it all too deep, just continuing to work on myself and not react.

As far as a list, it would be unrealistic to even think of bringing this up. It was for my own use trying to help me know what I want. I can see it working if in fact she is willing. Canít get any read from her on what she is thinking or by what she says. I do see actions that tend to leaning towards staying. Could be very temporary or potentially using me to get to the wedding date next summer. Just seems to be a long time to live under the same roof especially when she says sĒshe canít live under these conditions.Ē I think, hmmm, no yelling, no arguing, just pretty much as usual other than she is in the back BR.

Hasnít been put out in the least bit...other than one big issue, that is her trusting me. I donít know why she would leave until she had her plan executed to purchase a home and go. Why go thru all the work twice. Why not just stay status quo until next summer then leave after the wedding. Good news is time is on my side then if I want it to work. This is sooo confusing......

Have become more accepting to what ever may happen. Either way I think in the end I will be much better off, with or without her, as there will be changes in the future.

Thoughts?

Z
Posted By: Zip

Re: The last straw - 09/19/19 03:01 AM

So this process was s getting harder. My patience is being tried big time. Just trying to get a read on her is like dancing with fire. Look at her wrong or ask a simple question and she is ready to take me on. Just the tone at times is enough to try avoiding her at all costs.

The thought of potentially pulling the trigger and filing myself is creeping into my mind more often than I prefer. This wasnít nor isnít exactly what I thought I would be thinking. Its a bit disturbing although when I think it through, I start wondering just what I will be losing out on. Think about the family and what I will be willing to settle with in a M, and in my heart, know the W will ever get there.

Meeting w the bulldog L tomorrow. Will get more answers regarding the bizarre payments of utilities and my personal qtrly inc taxes. Saying it was because I pay her health ins just isnít cutting it in my mind. Canít come up with the logic behind this and I have to believe her L advised her to do so. She did get additional info from CPA prior to this paying of taxes. Timing seems she got tax returns from CPA then to the L and then pd taxes. And then explained she was having L draw up a doc to allow her to buy a house. Spelling it out, it seems she had a pretty productive week. Maybe the paperwork is getting closer to being filed.

Becoming more mad about the sitch. Guess itís a stage.

Ughh....

Zip
Posted By: AnotherStander

Re: The last straw - 09/19/19 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by Zip
So this process was s getting harder. My patience is being tried big time. Just trying to get a read on her is like dancing with fire. Look at her wrong or ask a simple question and she is ready to take me on. Just the tone at times is enough to try avoiding her at all costs.


Yes exactly, this is why we preach giving them time and space! You can literally do nothing right in her eyes right now, nothing will appease her. So don't even try. Do your own thing and let her do hers. When you do talk to her stick to business. Be polite but detached.

Quote
Think about the family and what I will be willing to settle with in a M, and in my heart, know the W will ever get there.


The W she is right now isn't worth being married to. In the future who knows, she may change back, it happens. But she may not, so that's what makes "standing" tough.
Posted By: Choco44

Re: The last straw - 09/19/19 12:54 PM

Your situation sounds similar to mine right now.
I know he wants out, but weíre not talking about when and how. Iím trying to not ask questions about the relationship, but itís so difficult. I want answers d@mmit! 😊
Posted By: Thornton

Re: The last straw - 09/19/19 12:57 PM

I can relate, Zip.

My W is acting the same exact way. Ice cold, no eye contact. In fact, I said goodnight to W and D12 last night and only D12 responded. She canít even be decent enough to say goodnight.
Posted By: Zip

Re: The last straw - 09/22/19 01:05 AM

Thanks for the responses!

Been a busy week w b-days Including me, D23, and now W. Dinners for all except getting pushback from W on having hers, not sure why but looks it wonít be Sunday on her BDay. She thinks it best to post phone til maybe Wednesday... who knows. Made reservations but will cancel tomorrow with confirmation from her. Did t want to be caught w/o res as she says I am always late and never plan. Just another action vs words.

Had BDay dinner w D23 and the crew and everything went exceptionally well. W even held hands for a short period. I unfortunately initiated it but I ended it as well after a couple minutes. Wrong I know but guess I was taking her temp as nothing going on since last Saturday after the FB post when she was a bit hot and asked if I might have someone Iíd rather take to the wedding in Oct. she has softened since that conversation.

Did meet w L2 better known as the bulldog. They are destruction specialists and this one fits the bill....she was pretty much ready to destroy the M at a drop of the hat and told me she canít see what I am waitng for as my W has left the M a long time ago. Asked if I was seeing a IC which I said yes. Asked how many sessions and when I said 15-20 she laughed and said she isnít doing her job and I should see a male counselor. When I walked out, oi prayed I would never need her and be in her office again. Hope I am right. She makes her living destroying M and I had to remind myself it is how she is wired. Walked away and started back on th DBing track again.

Still fighting the patience.... need to stay calm and let it flow... still finishing the books and working hard to stay busy.

I feel for all of us...this just stinks.

Thornton, choco and Steve....we will prevail thru this....

Another, I greatly appreciate your input as well as Sandi!!!!

Zip
Posted By: Thornton

Re: The last straw - 09/22/19 01:35 AM

Hang in there, Zip. Keep that focus on you. Letting your W go to truly figure out her stuff is the healthiest thing you can do. Keep detaching, she just might start to warm up.
Posted By: Zip

Re: The last straw - 09/23/19 09:07 PM

Update on where the sitch is. Seems there has been a change in the W. She has been much more warm and friendly the past week.

Originally Posted by Thornton
Hang in there, Zip. Keep that focus on you. Letting your W go to truly figure out her stuff is the healthiest thing you can do. Keep detaching, she just might start to warm up.


The detaching is a bit tough for me and I have made mistakes on sliding backwards in the sense i show some feelings of afffection to her. Even so she is still warming up. Since the prior weekend, she is acting as close to me as she did prior to the whole blow up. Still different BR which I am okay with but showing some signs of caring towards me.

This month has been BDay month for most of the family, Mine first which came w/ presents and a dinner but no card from the W. I assume she didnt want to write anything down and sign, such as ILY...etc. She did recognize my BD as l said above which i found interesting,. She said she didnt get to the card store but she bought something there which cant be gotten anywhere else in town...,so I have to assume she wasnt up for giving me a card. OK, I can settle for that with all other ways she showed she cared.

Had BD dinner for D24 as listed and all went really well with W and I. She is showing some affection which i would think would not be happening if she was on the eve of dropping paperwork in my lap.... maybe wrong and am cautious about thinking this is potentially changing for the better but do feel a difference from her.

Had the W's BD yesterday. She didn't go to a friend's house for the game which i didn't find too hard to understand. She wanted to relax at home. ALL GOOD,,, I had made reservations for the family for her dinner which she was exited to go. Was ready when I got home and we all had a great time at dinner. Came home and I gave her some gifts with a card. I did sign it with an ILY in there. She liked her presents and got up and gave me a kiss on the lips with a smile.
Lots more than I would have expected from her. Seeing some changes and not ready to ask any specific questions, just going to keep doing what I have been doing, working on myself and keeping calm.

Not sure if I am included in the wedding in Oct but would be surprised if I am not.... although anything could happen between now and then. Her attitude, communication, and inclusion of me in whats going on seems to have greatly improved. Hope I am not in a dream as it will be a real blow if this R goes off track again, I have to take some blame but know she is as well.

Will keep on DBing and working on myself, and working towards better days...

Zip
Posted By: sandi2

Re: The last straw - 09/26/19 09:24 PM

Just stay alert and don't get emotionally pulled in by her recent actions. You may never know why she has chosen to become friendlier, but I am suspicious of WW's. If they can appease or fool the LBH just enough to slither under the backdoor of the MR, without work and change.........they will. I think I am safe in saying that most WW's prefer to simply pick up where the relationship left off, without them being held accountable and doing whatever it takes to save the M. Let me rephrase by saying that a WW who is not remorseful and humble will do as little as possible to maintain her position in the M dynamic, b/c her heart has not changed. She can put on a little show, but that doesn't mean anything has changed in her heart. I think it is a big mistake to let a WW come back too quickly too easily.

I know it gets confusing to newcomers b/c we are saying to not have relationship talks........however, I want to inject something along the lines of letting her come back into the MR too easily, without atoning for her actions. In order for true reconciliation to happen, her waywardness needs to be addressed and if she is willing to have family therapy and a transparency plan of action, and whatever else is needed for the MR to succeed........then I think that needs to be communicated at some point. She needs to realize she can't just flip the switch on/off and assume you will be thankful for any crumbs and not require any effort from her. Don't bring it up right now, but at sometime if she seems to settle in as if nothing ever happened, and she gives not explanations......I wouldn't let it go indefinitely before setting some ground rules. Why? B/c that's what WW's prefer to do........act as if nothing ever happened. They want to play nice-nice with the LBH but not do the real heavy work of repairing the damage they caused. Of course, she intends to keep separate bedrooms and keep you in the friend zone, as long as you go along with it. That is a mistake to agree to those conditions, thinking a reconciliation will eventually come. So, keep what I'm saying in the back of your mind. Don't assume she is ready to work on the MR just b/c she has shown some movements of warmth toward you. She may not follow through with the D, for whatever reason........(usually b/c the WW sees more benefit staying with the LBH). This could be nothing more than pretense, b/c you just don't know how the wheels are turning in her head. When there are so outward signs of remorse, no seeking forgiveness, no explanations, no nothing.........don't buy into the act.

Here's the thing you need to remember about a WW. She is incredibly selfish. So, whenever you see her doing something that doesn't make sense to you, just write it down that she is getting something out of it. It's usually temporary, but she gets something emotionally, financially, physically, or whatever. It's all about her. I don't know if he's still around, cause I don't see his posts, but there was a H who had a WW that cake eat like you couldn't believe, and kept him at arms length for years. He went along with whatever shots she called, and last I heard, nothing had changed. That description covers a lot of H's on the board. I hope it won't include you as well.

Keep posting, Zip. ((hugs))
Posted By: LovingIt

Re: The last straw - 09/27/19 12:11 AM

@sandi2

First of all, thanks for all your comments and time!

Some followup question to your WW comment above. Do you think if they are doing this consciously (premeditated), or subconsciously (chemically driven)?
Posted By: sandi2

Re: The last straw - 09/30/19 04:15 PM

Quote
@sandi2

First of all, thanks for all your comments and time!

Some followup question to your WW comment above. Do you think if they are doing this consciously (premeditated), or subconsciously (chemically driven)?


These type questions causes me to answer with too many words, but I'll give it my best shot. blush

Waywardness is an act of free volition. It is not forced upon any woman to lose respect for her H. It begins with unresolved resentment that she's tried to push down and go on with her life, but it's still there in her heart. She may carry this unresolved resentment for years, and the H may have no idea. Since her sexual desire is tied to her level of respect for her H, sexual intimacy flies out the window pretty fast. Many couples have a SSM for years, and the H thinks she simply has a low drive.........no, she doesn't respect him, and that's the problem in the bedroom. Eventually, the loss of respect and unresolved resentment will breed and other negative attitudes are born. Selfishness becomes a big proponent, suggesting she deserves better, or this is her time to do what she wants, etc. The little signs of disrespect come more to the surface in forms of rebellion. Eventually the little signs grow into all out rebellion. She rebels against her H, the marriage.

I believe all forms of waywardness begins with a negative mental attitude about her spouse. It's not that she premeditates her negative emotions/attitude, but they are never resolved through forgiveness, therapy, etc. She might try certain solutions she read in a book, but found no success b/c she is either too depressed or has reached the dangerous point of believing her H will never change and she's giving up. Some women may try to let it go of their resentment and succeed, but for the women who can't/won't let it go.......they hang on to it and it brews and the negative junk feeds her mind/soul. So, every time she is let down or disappointed in her H, it's thrown into the big heap of marital lifetime resentments.

I wouldn't say that resentment is premeditated exactly, however, if she already has stinking thinking....she's not going to try and stop it when it comes knocking. She may even come to expect it, especially if her H never attempts to make changes. It's up to the individual to let resentment hang on, roll it over & over, festering in their heart. It's as if she has this little devil sitting on her shoulder whispering in her ear and reminding her of every wrong thing her H has done, and in fact, suggests that he is the problem of all her unhappiness.....and, she deserves better.

All of this grows and sprouts into other things that convinces the H she is completely nuts, and I can readily see how WW's reflect narcissism, especially when their rebellion is flourishing. IMHO, that's why a lot of H's believe it's due to MLC, menopausal, borderline personality, prescriptions, alcohol or something in her past is causing her to behave as if an alien has replaced the real woman he married. I do believe that certain medications can tip the scale, b/c anything that messes with your brain chemicals, is going to affect how you feel and how you process thoughts.

"Do you think if they are doing this consciously (premeditated), or subconsciously (chemically driven)?" Now it's getting deep and complicated. Waywardness definitely comes from a personal choice of that individual. If chemicals are added, it makes matters much worse, IMHO. I think alcohol and drugs can cause people to behave inappropriately or much worse. If she already had a wayward heart, then being under the influence might give her courage to do something more outrageous than if she wasn't taking anything. But what I want people to understand is there's a difference when one is acting under the influence of a chemical, and when one is acting from what's in the heart/soul.

I do believe waywardness is a progression that begins with deep resentment, disrespect, and rebellion. If not checked, it will worsen until she is nothing like the girl you married.

I'll have to stop here, or else I'm going to write a sloppy book. smile I would like very much to hear your story. How about starting a thread?
Posted By: Zip

Re: The last straw - 10/23/19 04:52 AM

Well I have been off the grid for a while.

Need to post more and make the time to do so.

Found myself reading the dB and dr books and now want to re read them again. Great stuff! But with that said, I am finding myself second guessing my work as well as being very confused as to what I want. I am learning and growing in areas I should have been working on for years. Although there are many areas I found myself strong in, I am angry that I continued to lack in areas which, if I knew then what I know now would have potentially been a game changer for the M. Now I find myself getting angry at myself and would like to express my feelings with the W.

Good news is this opportunity has not come up even though I asked to have a discussion with her. This ha been a serious issue through the M whereby she will have a short conv and move on. The issue is still there but she is finished with it only to fester in her mind for years without addressing it. Best it has been on hold until I get myself in check. Learning a lot on self control, which I am still poor in doing. Need to work hard on this.

Realizing slowly itís about ME, and not her at this point. I am slowly starting to realize I may be better without her. I find myself thinking this more often than not lately. This wavering in my mind has my emotions all over the board. Being in limbo with her and in my mind [censored].

Iíll be back to post tomorrow. Just need to get my feelings off my chest.....

Zip
Posted By: Zip

Re: The last straw - 10/24/19 02:15 AM

Pretty uneventful day. Left for work and didnít let W know I was leaving. She was a bit busy and I was running behind. The past couple weeks, when I went into her office to say GB, she just ignored me until I went out of her office. Feel like she doesnít want me in there which my IC brought to light. Why donít I see that as clear is beyond me. So with that I will avoid both her BR and Office.

An hr later I get a text, ď hope you have a good dayĒ. Something I wouldnít have received from her as much as 3 weeks ago. Gave her a thumbs up and left it at that. I just donít feel I want to converse with her. For wanting to DB and save the M, I am sliding the other way. I feel my patience is really wearing on me. In the days of quick fixes and immediate satisfaction, I feel I am in limbo land. Pushing will result in a negative response so best to keep quiet. A major contributor to our issues is the lack of communication, a place we are bask at. Maybe it is time to push her to discuss the status? Know if I push a convo there wonít be any good of it. Waiting is where I have been w W. How do I move this off center , or do I let it lay?

Major issue is D27 wedding in June at the farm and I truly feel she is staying until then for her own benefit and no meaningful conversations to clarify her plans. I am in a pickle here with no good option. I could push the issue since she clearly stated she wants out, that we need to lay down some parameters moving forward. Still thinking her delaying may be she doesnít know what she wants. It will be a long winter if she stays. Been 60 days since she supposedly requested a ďSpousal waiverĒ from her L so she can go buy a house. Not one doc to date, makes me wonder what she is doing.

We are invited to a wedding this W/E and not sure I am included.. Was told I may be a problem at the wedding and she doesnít want me to start any drama. No idea why she would say such a statement but, itís now 45 days since she rsvpíd and I have no idea if Iím to go or stay. Hard to go to a wedding thAt I havenít associated w the family for 3 yrs and they are aware of our sitch thru W. If I am invited, not sure I should go. Just not feeling it to be w the W. Feelings of detachment are setting in. Feel this is what she has wanted all along.

Need to get some sleep.... thanks for your time

Zip
Posted By: MrBrside

Re: The last straw - 10/24/19 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by sandi2

Waywardness is an act of free volition. It is not forced upon any woman to lose respect for her H. It begins with unresolved resentment that she's tried to push down and go on with her life, but it's still there in her heart. She may carry this unresolved resentment for years, and the H may have no idea. Since her sexual desire is tied to her level of respect for her H, sexual intimacy flies out the window pretty fast. Many couples have a SSM for years, and the H thinks she simply has a low drive.........no, she doesn't respect him, and that's the problem in the bedroom. Eventually, the loss of respect and unresolved resentment will breed and other negative attitudes are born. Selfishness becomes a big proponent, suggesting she deserves better, or this is her time to do what she wants, etc. The little signs of disrespect come more to the surface in forms of rebellion. Eventually the little signs grow into all out rebellion. She rebels against her H, the marriage.




Hi Sandi,

Sorry to thread Hijack, but this is a great post. Really insightful.

My sitch is ancient history now and Iíve moved on, but whenever I read these sitchs ( all so similar ) I can never pinpoint what caused the lack of respect in my WAW. I rarely think about it in day or day life, but when I read stuff like your post above it always makes me wonder.

In my sitch, me and my WAW had an amazing relationship until our first daughter was born. There were one or two red flags, but generally we were in a great place. Plenty of affection, lots of great and exciting sex ( several times a day until the day before she gave birth ) , great communication, always fell asleep in each others arms and always doing things together... looking back now In a sad kind of way, It was like a fairy tail romance.. I am not seeing that period before D1 birth with rose tinted specs, there were loads of token gestures we kept and pictures of us looking madly in love, although I accept I ignored some red flags on her traits. She as a person was also very different ( she looks like a different person on photos now compared to before D1 was born) Ė Back then she was very ďplain JaneĒ ( but naturally pretty ), wore average no designer clothes, no makeup, normal hair, out occasionally with her girl mates etc. She was a catch Ė a normal girl who wasnít obsessed with herself or money / clothes / looks.. In her own words, she just wanted a ďhome birdĒ settled life.

Once our first daughter was born things changes very quickly ( which progressed a lot more over the next 6 years ) - Sex went from multiple times a day to once a week ďget it over with quickly Ē if lucky ( blamed tiredness from the baby usually ), and over the next few years she went from Plain Jane to a botox, boob jobbed, self-obsessed, spending on clothes obsessed, selfie lover who started to drink every single night and go out every other weekend. Looking back now it was obvious how she had little respect, just by little comments ( i.e. she used to love to drive my sports car, but after daughter was born, she always referred to it as a ďchavvy carĒ that I needesd to sell)

Now its only natural to expect a mother to give 100% to her new born, at the expense of our relationship to a degree Ė and I have no doubt that I went from Alpha to Beta once our daughter was born, but I doubt that happened overnight.
Can a new born baby cause the resentment you mention above ? Could it be the life she lost ( ie working, independence, socialising ) to being a full time mum while I got to go to work and carry on as normal Ė could that cause the resentment?
You touch upon BPD and Narasasim. My WAW shows a lot of traits of both of these and still does on the limited contact I have with her. I find it shocking how a person can change so much. Now i feel she see cares more about herself than the children. When our first was born, all the pictures on the phone were of D1.. Before she left, her phone was 100% selfies ( sometimes including the children ) Ė but always including her.. I will never understand what made a person change so much and actually before everything they used to hate.

But really love the time you spend giving the LBS the insight..
Posted By: Zip

Re: The last straw - 10/27/19 04:19 AM

Was asked to go to the wedding Thursday for the Saturday event. She said it snuck up on her and needed to know if I was going and needed an a seer right then. My concern in going is for a group of her friends from the beach in which I have been pretty much shunned from going. Quite frankly, I am not close to any of them due to the lack of always having to stay home and attend to everyoneís animals.

I did go but was reluctant, although I felt I needed to go being both D27 and fiancť, and D23 w BF were going. I saw no way out with all of them attending. Most disturbing is my W has stopped wearing her wedding rings since 8/4/19 it has been a real internal issue of mine which she is aware of from the past not wearing them. I knew this would be the case and it put me in a low spot which resulted in me not wearing mine. Quite childish on my behalf but warned to make a point. Not a word said from anyone....which was good. The problem is I am here on the board and am feeling there are glimpses of her being nice.....just nice, and I feel there should be more movement in one direction or another. There hasnít been any discussions regarding a D in 45 days. I find it hard to not think a D is eminent and canít get this thought out of my head. I am really struggling with this. Def not what I want but feel I am wasting my time and only setting myself up for a letdown.

I really need some feedback on whether this thought process s common or not and additionally some insight into how to handle it. Any help would be so greatly appreciated!!

Overall the wedding was okay....W was not very warm to me during the night but was better when we got home. I think some of her attitude could have been due to her personal friends she has talked to regarding the sitch and could have felt a bit uncomfortable with me there.

Itís late and should be getting rest. Hope my post makes some sense, if not Iíll try to be more clear tomorrow.

Thanks for any input you can give.


Zip
Posted By: LH19

Re: The last straw - 10/27/19 05:22 PM

Z,

It is very common for the LBS to feel that way. The problem is if you are sitting around the house moping and feeling sorry for yourself that is unattractive.

The best thing to do is not worry about things you canít control. Detach, work on you 180s and GAL your a$$ off!
Posted By: Zip

Re: The last straw - 10/29/19 03:20 AM

LH thanks for reading. I agree that action is very much unattractive. It isnít me as I canít keep up with the chores on the farm let alone getting ready for D27ís wedding next summer. There is so much to do with what seems a lot of time but it gets away fast so no problem staying busy in that regard.

The issue is simply that she moved to the back br and has been there since 8/4. Minimal communication on issues and was made clear she wanted out since 5/20 at the first MC session. The true end was the pic incident that made her convinced she was done on 8/4. The real truth is she is nothing more than a roommate that has been living under the same roof for over 3 yrs now. Just had our 32 nd Anniversary and will probably be the last. No intimacy for years and I have put up with it for unknown reasons other than thinking she may change and that I love her. This is now becoming more difficult as she is probably going to stay here until the wedding next June then leave. No conversations about it as she wonít discuss. Itís a control issue and she feels she has the upper hand due to my actions.

Her last conversation was 3 weeks ago when she said she was still waiting on her L to draft a spouse waiver so she can buy a house. This has now been over 60 days in the works, and no documents. Additionally, no signs of looking for a house either although she may and I wouldnít know. Her life is still the same other than sleeping in the other room. No affection at all...no goodnight..nothing unless I initiate it. Then maybe a hug and a kiss on her cheek.

Itís getting really old and wearing me down. I believe she wants me to be the bad guy and file, not her although she is the one who demanded a D. Not once but many times. For her to go, she needs to relocate her office from the house or commute back to the house until she moves. Her life is status quo, no changes at all. In fact she is in a place where she wants to be...alone but at home...and she can tolerate me as she can regulate what she does with me which is minimal.

I thought time was a good thing, but at 58, Iím wondering how long I have to live my life like roommates. Writing this is just infuriating. Iím at a loss.... if the M could be rekindled and there was affection and intimacy, I want to work on it but as it has been itís not worth the heartache and stress.

Just been beaten down and running very low on patience. Read DB and DR which gave me hope but itís so easy to feel defeated when such little change takes place.

Any insight is much appreciated

Zip
Posted By: LH19

Re: The last straw - 10/29/19 12:44 PM

Z,

There isn't really anything you can do right now accept to wait it out unless your ready to file for divorce.

I think it's best to hope for the best but start preparing for the worse.
Posted By: AnotherStander

Re: The last straw - 10/29/19 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by Zip
The real truth is she is nothing more than a roommate that has been living under the same roof for over 3 yrs now. Just had our 32 nd Anniversary and will probably be the last. No intimacy for years and I have put up with it for unknown reasons other than thinking she may change and that I love her.


This seems to happen a lot in long-term marriages, this loss of passion. My XW and I still had sex regularly, but I had told her several times in the later years that it felt like we were just roommates. It's hard to raise kids and both work and still keep the passion alive, and we didn't. Sometimes the couple stays together anyway, but sometimes one of them decides they want more out of life.

Quote
Her last conversation was 3 weeks ago when she said she was still waiting on her L to draft a spouse waiver so she can buy a house. This has now been over 60 days in the works, and no documents. Additionally, no signs of looking for a house either although she may and I wouldnít know.


Just leave that to her to work out. Try to quit spending a lot of brainpower on what she's doing, what she might do, what she's thinking about, what it all means.

Quote
I believe she wants me to be the bad guy and file


This is one case where you should be more than happy to disappoint her.

Quote
I thought time was a good thing, but at 58, Iím wondering how long I have to live my life like roommates.


I'm 58 as well. You're probably having a lot of the same thoughts that I have- how much longer do I have on this world? How long will I be able to perform sexually? How many "good" years do I have left, and do I want to spend them as I have been or do I want to implement some changes? I'm very fit and healthy, but at this age one major ailment could strip all that away quickly. So yes I hear you, and yes you do need to consider those things in deciding what direction you want your life to take. My XW left because she wanted change in her life, and she did make a lot of changes. I wanted things to stay the same, but looking back I think it was just complacency. I've made many changes since then and my life is more fulfilling as a result. So even though BD, S and D was the most painful thing I've ever been through, it was the kick in the pants I needed to really embrace life.

Quote
Writing this is just infuriating. Iím at a loss.... if the M could be rekindled and there was affection and intimacy, I want to work on it but as it has been itís not worth the heartache and stress.


Unfortunately there are no guarantees. You can DB your heart out and you might establish a new relationship with your wife that is even more fulfilling. Or she may leave and never look back. But even at 58 you have time, there's no need to rush things. Keep reading, keep DB'ing, keep working on yourself and give her time and space. Eventually your path will become more clear.
Posted By: Zip

Re: The last straw - 10/29/19 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by LH19
Z,

There isn't really anything you can do right now accept to wait it out unless your ready to file for divorce.

I think it's best to hope for the best but start preparing for the worse.



LH thats where I am having the problem. I wonder if I am not getting closer to this day but at this point, I am not there. I always felt we would grow old together and thats been my dream....although my actions havent shown such. its very hard to stay in love with nothing back. But for some reason, I feel still very in love with her. Why can i still feel so strongly for someone who gives so little back to me, for years. Is it a false feeling in my mind? I have no interest in finding or knowing of any other women i would rather be with. And I have seen the ripple effects of the D through my brothers and I dont want to see this happen to my Ds. THis just s*cks.
Posted By: Ready2Change

Re: The last straw - 10/29/19 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by Zip
Why can i still feel so strongly for someone who gives so little back to me, for years.
That is a great question for your IC. You have lots of personal growth work to do.
Posted By: LH19

Re: The last straw - 10/29/19 07:19 PM

Z,

There is a saying by Tony Robbins that ďrejection breeds obsessionĒ. The truth is you probably feel about her that same as she feels about you but men typically put up with more. Itís more about you feeling like your losing control of your life. Like your spinning down a drain and thereís nothing to grab on to and thatís a horrible feeling. Not to mention your probably fearing starting over at 58 years old.
Posted By: Zip

Re: The last straw - 10/29/19 07:35 PM

AS thanks for your input. i have been hoping to read input from you on my sitch. I am truly grateful for you, LH, Sandi2 and others for your valuable advice!

Well I read both DB and DR.... and I need to read and re read again.

Its sooo easy to screw up....and to hit reverse and try backing out is damn near impossible.

A major screw up today. I was in a mood from the weekend wedding and it boiled over this morning. A couple issues added to the problem and i will be as short as i can.

Friday night i had an event with a banker who was askiing about the property I was thinking of buying in August. Due tot he BD, I walked away. I told him there were some marital issues on the table which he had gone through a few years ago and understood. He told me to call him Monday morning to discuss options to move forward if I wanted to. this got my mind going as it has been a master plan to purchase this property but it took the W years to finally agree it is a smart move.

Saturday, we go to the wedding where I am surrounded by all her beach friends and they are looking at me as if to say, "what are you doing here?" With the W in a cold mood and my D27 and D23 on the other side of the room, i felt very isolated and an outsider. Didnt sit well, I wrote notes to myself when I was alone at the recept saying I need to get out of this M and why did i ever agree to go. More stress just building inside of me.

Sunday...busy working on farm for June wedding...minimal interaction with W. good day.

Monday Morn, get a text out of the blue from owner of property for sale.,,, he wants to see if I am interested that it is still available. I thought someone else put a contract in but if so it didnt go. Banker stated he could get the financing but will need the W to waive her rights to the property. So I think if she has stated she is getting a spouse waiver to buy a house without me, then i will use the same form for this property.

The problem was the delivery...I asked her this morning if she had gotten the waiver form from the L, which she says no that she hasnt heard from the L. I said its been over 60 days.... wonder why, Well this then went downhill as I dont explain why I am looking for the form, and she feels i am now pushing for her to find a home and move on, I dont tell her about the property, this is mistake #? I have to put mistake #1 with the tone i am talking to her in , She then reminds me i said YEARS ago that it would take me 30 days, like my brother, to find another woman, THis is brought up and thrown in my face. So we are not in the heat of an argument. I asked is it a secret as to who your L is? She said no, and its easy to remember, her name is Meredith....just like the friend you have on FB. Well she apparently was told by her sister that I am friends with this woman who I am,, I will drop the friendship immediately and did tell the W when asked who she is, told her she bought some hay from me and has given me some advice on how to handle the sitch. Soo, this has opened up the "I dont trust you at all" and now I am wondering what to do at this time.

Seems to be natural to create problems versus just keeping my mouth shut and staying the course. You can do well for so long but then something goes astray in your mind and it goes to sh*t so quickly.... it is sad and disappointing how a 10 minute conversation can do so much destruction without even planning on such an outcome.

I know the 2x4 may need to be used on me which is well deserved. Just need to find the mental support to withhold and self control. I can only hope its not too late...again.

Zip
Posted By: Zip

Re: The last straw - 10/29/19 07:48 PM

Originally Posted by LH19
Z,

There is a saying by Tony Robbins that ďrejection breeds obsessionĒ. The truth is you probably feel about her that same as she feels about you but men typically put up with more. Itís more about you feeling like your losing control of your life. Like your spinning down a drain and thereís nothing to grab on to and thatís a horrible feeling. Not to mention your probably fearing starting over at 58 years old.



Could be it... i don't want to start over but have watched my brothers do so in the last 3 yrs and one older than me and one younger. They both say you will be happier getting through this regardless of the outcome. And both have found partners who make them happier.

Just dont want to face it I guess. The feelings are still strong and cant tell why I did have a brief discussion w IC but no clear answer I can cling to. We both will be fine financially but its tearing everything apart that we built that's sad. Not a good reason to hang in there I know.
Posted By: Zip

Re: The last straw - 10/29/19 07:54 PM

AS, R2C posted this quote (sorry I am not sure how to copy): My W has said she is a WAS. or atleast told me that fits her sitch.


WAS's are masters of acting "as if". They act like the new life they're pursuing is perfect, the answer to all their hopes and dreams. The reality is she's struggling. There's a storm inside her, she's fighting between wanting to go back to her old life and thinking she needs to pursue a new one. Which will win out is anyone's guess, but don't believe the placid, happy face she's putting on, it's a mask.

Thanks for this post... i find strength that its not just me going through this.

I am thinking this is the case that she is fighting a storm but never shows it. I am like a heartbeat and she is like a flat line... this is what antis up the responses from me for a response that rarely comes until it is full of venum
Posted By: Zip

Re: The last straw - 10/29/19 08:09 PM

At the wedding on Sat. the preacher said there were 5 things that can insure a positive marriage. The list is as follows from what i recall

Communication: both verbal and non verbal... you need to communicate when things are good and when they go bad, don't let it stew and blow. Get it out and minimize the problem by talking it out...(my summation which doesnt happen with W.) Much more to it but this is the resounding message.

Anger Management: Don't go to bed mad at each other, try to resolve the anger even if you disagree after you have discussed. Revisit the issue after you have cooler heads, but try to resolve the anger or it will eat you up inside.

Forgiveness: We ALL MAKE MISTAKES and will make them in the future as we are human, Learn to forgive your partner for their mistakes as you will make them yourself. You don't forget, you learn from them and become stronger.

Leave work at work: Don't bring home the problems from your work and impose the feelings on the family. ( have been accused of this and actually felt I must have been oblivious to doing so) I also find it hard that W works from home and never can walk away from her O. It is quite stressful and very maddening when she gets calls from her clients from 6-8pm.


So, with listing the above, I would say the M grade for each one has been at a D+ at best. I asked if the W listened and she said,,,we aren't getting into this now. Good point, just wanted to see if she heard what he said. Not sure we will ever be able to go back and visit these points at this juncture. but i am still hopeful we can.

Ughh

Zip
Posted By: Zip

Re: The last straw - 10/29/19 08:14 PM

Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Originally Posted by Zip
Why can i still feel so strongly for someone who gives so little back to me, for years.
That is a great question for your IC. You have lots of personal growth work to do.



I am not doing well at all in this personal growth area.. I feel I am having issues working on myself and how to keep my composure let alone trying to improve and grow. Do i need a manual to work through this as I feel quite lost.
Posted By: Ready2Change

Re: The last straw - 10/29/19 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by Zip
I asked if the W listened and she said,,,we aren't getting into this now.
Logic/Talking will not be effective. This is a perfect example.


Coach was very wise:
Originally Posted by Coach
To change the way they feel about you, you must change the way they think about you.

How do you do that? Most of us vets give the same advice in different words. The easiest and very productive way of changing the way your WAS thinks about you is to - agree with them (validate), drop the rope (let them go), and GAL (take care of yourself, become interesting). When someone comes in my office and is upset about their account the easiest way for me to calm them down is to agree with them. Now they can't be mad at me because we are on the same side of the table. If I try to tell them why they shouldn't be upset (logic) how are they going to respond?
Posted By: AnotherStander

Re: The last straw - 10/29/19 08:44 PM

Originally Posted by Zip
AS thanks for your input. i have been hoping to read input from you on my sitch. I am truly grateful for you, LH, Sandi2 and others for your valuable advice!


Absolutely! It's extremely difficult and painful to navigate this, and it's hard to find people that can relate. I'm happy to help and I know the others here are too.

Quote
Well I read both DB and DR.... and I need to read and re read again.


It does help. I read DR fairly regularly when XW wasn't around, and I also found 5 Love Languages and The Happiness Trap very helpful. The Married Man Sex Life Primer too, it can be on the crude side but it helps to understand how some of the "laws of attraction" work. Oh and "Love Must be Tough" was helpful.

Quote
Its sooo easy to screw up....and to hit reverse and try backing out is damn near impossible.


One thing it takes a while to realize is that no one thing really matters that much to your sitch. No one thing got you here, no one thing is going to fix your M, and no one thing is going to kill your chances. You're working on an upward trend, not perfection. If you make a mistake (and we all make plenty) then you think about it, learn from it, pick yourself up and keep moving forward.

Quote
She then reminds me i said YEARS ago that it would take me 30 days, like my brother, to find another woman, THis is brought up and thrown in my face. So we are not in the heat of an argument. I asked is it a secret as to who your L is? She said no, and its easy to remember, her name is Meredith....just like the friend you have on FB. Well she apparently was told by her sister that I am friends with this woman who I am,, I will drop the friendship immediately and did tell the W when asked who she is, told her she bought some hay from me and has given me some advice on how to handle the sitch. Soo, this has opened up the "I dont trust you at all" and now I am wondering what to do at this time.


Another hard-earned lesson is that right now, she's looking for any and every excuse to hate you. You have a female friend on FB, you said XYZ 28 years ago and she never got over it, you breathe too loud, you chew with your mouth open, you left the toilet seat up 7 years ago. On and on. This is what WAS's do, it helps them justify leaving. How do you deal with it? Listen and validate. "I remember her name because it's the same as your friend on FB, I can't trust you." "It sounds like you are upset, is that how you feel?" "Of course because blah blah blah!!" "I can tell you are upset, I am sorry I made you feel that way." Validation is not agreement, or disagreement, or arguing, it's simply acknowledging she has feelings about something even if you disagree with them. Validation is the most important DB'ing tool in my opinion, read everything you can on it.

Quote
"WAS's are masters of acting "as if". They act like the new life they're pursuing is perfect, the answer to all their hopes and dreams. The reality is she's struggling. There's a storm inside her, she's fighting between wanting to go back to her old life and thinking she needs to pursue a new one. Which will win out is anyone's guess, but don't believe the placid, happy face she's putting on, it's a mask."

Thanks for this post... i find strength that its not just me going through this.


This is one that people kept telling me back when I was going through the aftermath of BD and I insisted they didn't know my XW, that she was resolute and sure of herself, confident. Much later my XW actually told me that she was in turmoil, that it tore her up inside and she felt like she was ruining everyone's lives. She said she cried every day. I was wrong and the people here who have never seen or spoken with my XW were right. This person that we think we know so well, they behave differently after BD. There are patterns that the people here on this forum know and recognize that the LBS going through it doesn't because it's all so new to them. Your wife is going through a lot more than you realize which is another reason it's important to give her time and space, and to listen and validate without judgment.
Posted By: Ready2Change

Re: The last straw - 10/29/19 11:14 PM


Always think "Counter-intuitive"

Check out this post:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2061094#Post2061094


We always talk about "what works". Your measurement stick is not how she reacts, but rather how your behavior was different (in a good way). For example, did you listen rather than argue?
Posted By: Zip

Re: The last straw - 11/04/19 05:35 AM

Been working hard at items on the repair list for the wedding. Not much change to report. Seems W is more than content in the relationship. No real conv taking place. She is overwhelmed w work into the eve. Been offering to bring or cook dinner and taken up on it more than not ( not new for me to do esp in past 3+ yrs) but little appreciation.

She acts like I am a friend and shows NO signs in moving from back BR. I see this as a roadblock in moving forward. She is very content and has no reason to change as she probably wanted this all along. I am stuck in a roommate situation. So with my patience being tried, I am not sure this is M is even salvageable and thinking I am stuck until the D27 wedding next June. Not sure it would be wise to make waves and my IC is saying wait until her work slows down after the first of the yr. prior to addressing any heavy conversation. She feels timing is crucial. I want some answers or at least some positive signs to stay hopeful.

She described herself as a Walk away wife in the past. Any specific thoughts on how to deal with this sitch. She has said she loves me but.... she feels she could never live up to the expectations I have for a wife regarding sex. With it going on 3+ yrs., Iím thinking I am only kidding myself that there could be a change. I am constantly doubting the chances of any M survival. Time is ticking away and with her being so stubborn, as well as her family telling her to leave me, I foresee this process is to get through next June and then one of us will be filing docs. Maybe she is thinking between now and then she can solidify the friend status and walk without too much arguing and stress. This process is draining and wearing me down. Maybe good strategy on her behalf?

With the info here, I need to GAL, which seems difficult due to the chores around the farm. I could and think I need to spend more time in my shop and not be with her when she wants to watch tv. Best part is I can watch tv in shop and work on projects needing completion. I can spend more time at work as there is plenty I can do there but with her trust issues, I it best if I am home vs at the office.

Have had 2 episodes where she has seemed to think there has been a 3 rd person, one where I made a post on FB which was a quote, and the other as a recommended friend to her sister that this person was a friend of mine. Both have no merit at all but there was a point to each issue. That was W was not happy at all thinking there was another person and she was angry about both. I read her anger as being jealousy. If she wants a D, why would she be soo angry, and why would she even care. I would think she would act the opposite if she is done with me. Itís like ďI donít want you, but nobody else can have youĒ. There isnít anyone, period, but the response makes me think there must be something there to try building on. I feel there are soo many mixed actions that I am starting to wonder if Iím reading more into these actions and statements than I should. So confusing.

Maybe as a man I just want it fixed and it isnít going to be fixed on my time...

AS, R2C, sandi2 and others that may be able to shed light, I would really appreciate any advice!

Zip
Posted By: Ready2Change

Re: The last straw - 11/04/19 05:50 PM

Hi Zip,

Originally Posted by Zip
R2C...I would really appreciate any advice!
Pressures on...Thanks...LOL

I am assuming she is not actively in an affair.

Quote
She acts like I am a friend.... I see this as a roadblock in moving forward.

Q:How do I get out the friend zone?
A:Attraction and Seduction. Know the difference and know when each is appropriate.

Read this first two posts of this thread:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2061092&page=all

Focus on things under your control. Your behavior.


Quote
my IC is saying wait ... feels timing is crucial.
I agree. Personally, during this period of the process, It is critical for you to intently listen and observe and do very little talking.

Quote
she feels she could never live up to the expectations I have for a wife regarding sex.
Change the way you think of sex. From my list above, "Learn to pleasure a woman" was a good resource. "Make it all about her" is one of my mantras. Keeping things rated G, I almost always let my woman "score the touchdown" first. I make a large effort to keep things new and exciting. Pleasantly surprising her.

In your sitch, next time she is in the mood, you should be "Pleasantly different"...her response should be "Wow, that was Zip?"


Quote
There could be a change...Time is ticking away
Use your time wisely. Focus on your changes and not hers. Do not use her as the measuring stick. The measuring stick is how much you have changed.

How much different can your behavior be by the time of the wedding? Bust out of her "Stereo type" of you. IF you aren't much of a dancer, can you be an amazing dancer for the wedding? If you start practicing now with lessons, I am sure you can.

Quote
I need to GAL, which seems difficult due to the chores around the farm.

There is always a balance. With her trust issues, You can invite her:

"W,I am planning on going to watch live music this Friday. Would you like to join me?"

You are fine with a YES or NO answer, but you are going to the event no mater what she decides.


Quote
Itís like ďI donít want you, but nobody else can have youĒ. There isnít anyone, period, but the response makes me think there must be something there to try building on.
You have been with her for a long time, and lots of things need fixing. Fix the things under your control. Let her be. The cat will come to you when it is ready. Don't chase the cat. Be catnip.
Posted By: Zip

Re: The last straw - 11/06/19 03:29 AM

Thanks R2C! Sorry for the pressure!

No current affair. She had one in 2004 with the prior owner of the farm we bought. She just admitted to this in August with the suggestion from her IC. Her issue is she thinks I am with one person or another.

Need to read up on the attraction vs seduction... although using eitherany time soon seems a long shot.

Time is on my side, being nothing has moved forward. So....I am trying and will continue to use to the best of my ability. I just find it quite trying which pushes my patience button. I am finding this is the personal growth area needing lots of attention.

I will continue to work on my weaknesses and GALing.

Zip
Posted By: Zip

Re: The last straw - 11/08/19 01:57 AM

Update on me....vs her. When I write these thoughts, it reminds me of why I am here, and allows me to read what I know I should be doing. Guess it is a process of self reflection in a good way with a correction function built in through support of the vets!

Been feeling more detached from her emotionally over the past week. I am struggling with a few issues with her. The first is her actions being friendly but minimal communication. I asked over 3 was ago to have a discussion and she said not now itís late...I was fine with that, but asked if she would find a good time and I will gladly work that into happening. She agreed to do this. The lack of her not addressing a time came up in a brief conversation which I mentioned she was to let me know and hasnít done it yet. I got no response. It reminds me of her promising to set an apt with a MC which she never did. Soo, the point is, she isnít going to discuss until she is ready, or, perhaps maybe never. I find it disrespectful that she just disregards a request she agreed to follow up with. The deeper part of this is being in limbo land. No idea where we stand. Iím trying to listen and not talk but there isnít any conv from her to listen to and validate....just crickets.

With no conv and the separate BR issue, it seems it would be better to have a separate location vs being under one roof. I see it as a stepping stone to walking out which I think is the plan next June after D27 gets married. I feel Iím being played. Itís an assumption and a feeling based on the past where there isnít any conv and then when she finally decides to come forward, itís going to be an emotional roller coaster again w threatening D. MAYBE, itís again my issues i need to focus on and not what she is going to do. The diversion of thoughts does not come natural. Need to work hard on this. Could that be one of the secrets of GALing?

Holiday issues are invading my thought process as well. Thanksgiving at my familyís house will be fine. She will probably plan on going as if nothing is wrong. My parents were informed by her so there are no secrets there. We will be okay through Thanksgiving. Christmas is the issue. Her family comes to our house and MIL usually comes up a day early. Well with her saying she doesnít care to ever see me again and showed me that when she shrugged me off at D27s house warming party in October, itís clear she wonít want to be here. Itís out of my control on what she does but will welcome her if she would choose to come up, even for the day. There hasnít been any conv regarding this issue either. If W continues to not converse, who knows. Maybe they will go somewhere else but no idea where. Just an uncomfortable situation thatís looming. Donít know if I should bring it up or let it unfold.

Being in the dark with W is wearing on my patience and I am fighting showing it in my attitude. My attitude, in my eyes, is not helping my sitch. The feeling of detaching and a bit of anger isnít helping. I am sure this isnít unusual to feel this way. I have to turn my attitude around and finding it difficult to do so.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Zip
Posted By: Ready2Change

Re: The last straw - 11/08/19 02:05 AM

Did you buy the seduction book? It is big and full of good info.


Have your finished reading DR?
Posted By: Zip

Re: The last straw - 11/08/19 04:03 AM

Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Did you buy the seduction book? It is big and full of good info.


Have your finished reading DR?


Ordered the seduction book and read DR. Will re read/ study the DR steps again.

This is a painfully slow process. When there is zero movement, one gets really frustrated.

What I wouldnít give to just get 10 minutes to say my peace. Interestingly enough, when we do have those conversations, it seems to bring her closer.....I think. Could just be my warped mind wanting to think that.

Oh and I thought I posted earlier but must not have. R2C, I was reading some other sitch and your earlier posts were steady and supportive in a time of need. To help us through some of the most trying moments in this journey is priceless. You and many other vets and contributors are lifesavers. I personally wanted to give you my most sincere thanks for your time and advice.

Zip
Posted By: Ready2Change

Re: The last straw - 11/08/19 05:44 PM

My pleasure.

My believe: pass out what you want to receive. I have to put myself into everyone shoes and make a decision on how I would handle it. Guess what? When it happens in my life, I have already experienced it, It is part of my core values and behavior and I can more easily apply it to my own life.


Quote
This is a painfully slow process. When there is zero movement, one gets really frustrated.
Change your measurement stick. How much are YOU changing should be the measurement. Move as fast as you can. One step at a time.
Posted By: Zip

Re: The last straw - 11/09/19 01:44 AM

Originally Posted by Ready2Change
My pleasure.


Quote
This is a painfully slow process. When there is zero movement, one gets really frustrated.
Change your measurement stick. How much are YOU changing should be the measurement. Move as fast as you can. One step at a time.


Great point. There is a transition I need to continually remind myself that itís ME who needs to change and i am the only one I can change. Therefore I will be responsible for changes, and look at myself for improvement and movement.

Thanks R2C!
Posted By: rooskers

Re: The last straw - 11/09/19 03:36 AM

Quote
If she wants a D, why would she be soo angry, and why would she even care. I would think she would act the opposite if she is done with me.


Sorry you are going through all of this. I just wanted to say from experience, if she wanted a divorce she would have gotten one already. Mine wanted a divorce and within two months it was done. She is in limbo right now just as you are.
Posted By: Ready2Change

Re: The last straw - 11/09/19 06:32 AM

Hi Zip,

Here are all my post. Read them. Understand that they apply to all men. Apply them to your sitch:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=userposts&id=19238


Dig into Coach, PuppyDogTails, RobX, AllenA, Steve85, AnotherStander, LH19 posts. They are very wise.
Posted By: Zip

Re: The last straw - 12/06/19 02:17 AM

Well I have been away for some time from the board regarding posting and working in DBing. Joined the gym and working on trust issues w the wife.

Then came thanksgiving....and the headway I was thinking was taking place definitely not taking hold. W informed me of why she wasnít going to my family gathering as we have for 30+yrs but instead to her sisters house. I was disappointed but agreed she should go. The reasons she gave were not what I expected:

First, my mother called and introduced herself as Wís ex Mil. Although she fought herself before finishing saying it, the damage was done. I questioned my mom why she would have said such and she said it just slipped out.

Second. My Bro told his S about the pending D inAugust and he told his M, an Ex who my W met for dinner the same week and was informed of the D before she had time to mention it.

End result..she went to her S house. Saw her for 3 min on thanksgiving to wish her a good day.

Saw her for 2 min on Black Friday prior to her leaving for the rest of the w/e to spend time w her S at their beach house. Texted her Friday to make sure she made it and no communication after that until she returned Sunday afternoon. We all watched football the rest of the eve with min conv but everything was okay.

THEN CAME MONDAY MORNING

I was leaving for work and she stopped me saying she had to talk to me...to say ď I canít live here under these conditions any longer....then handed me paperwork to sign ď so she can buy a beach house and move on.

There is a lot in this doc regarding pending an absolute D and stating we have been separated since Sept 2016.

She disclosed she has put away $250k over a period of time and now know she is trying to protect this money to buy the house...in addition to expecting 50% of what we own.

Furthermore, she says I have 5 days to sign or her L will drag me into court.....

So the past 2 days I have been a wreck emotionally but today has been better. I realize I am getting played and now am wondering how this may work out. Have an appt next week w L and have been strategizing on how to proceed.

What a f#$&@ mess. All while I was hoping we were making baby steps in the right direction.

Any vets want to add 2 cents to this disaster would be greatly appreciated

Zip
Posted By: Zip

Re: The last straw - 12/06/19 02:27 AM

Been thinking on the separation date being 9/2016...

Found out there is a diff between marital assets and earned assets. Earned assets are not included in a D if earned after the sep date. The marital assets are split at time of D.....so she is trying to protect her nest egg from me. She was able to earn and have min expenses as I was paying the mtge and other exp vs her. She didnít share this until around July this yr. I was not happy she has been withholding this as itís clear there was a motive to it...

Some feel she will lose if and when this date is challenged. She was in the marital bed until aug 3 2019. Up til then we have been a married couple but w/o sex for 3 yrs.

The other option may be to accept the date if all marital assets are valued at 9/16 values and I would get the diff in the values vs her. Itís interesting how you can get sc#@$d w/o even knowing itís coming.

Thoughts?

Zip
Posted By: Zip

Re: The last straw - 12/06/19 02:33 AM

One idea is being she has not filed for D, I could file and use thee correct date and she will have to fight it vs me.

Second. Maybe try to negotiate all the assets now while she wants something vs waiting and making her mad beyond negotiating....

All L questions at this time but I am finding it hard to think I would ever want to try reconciling if it was an option , which I am quite sure that train left the station a while ago without my seeing it leave.

Guess m
I am a LBS....wondering what to do now....

I know my heart is now broken and need to get myself in a place to deal with the destruction...

Zip
Posted By: Zip

Re: The last straw - 12/06/19 02:54 AM

I am probably not handling this right but I donít want to even be with her in the same room or converse w her. D23 is with her most of the time or she is in her office working. I have not spoken to her but once yesterday when I told her I am in a horrible emotional state and will try working on getting her the doc when I see a L which is next W.

She says itís like living with a wet blanket piled on her and she canít do it anymore. This is the first I have heard such since the pic issue in August. I find it really odd that all of a sudden she needs out and now!

Afraid my D23 is prob going to move out w her or to her bf house. Lots of negative changes and trying to deal with what I can control.

My questions are what should I do on being with them or should I stay clear of W. I know now she is ready for a battle to keep all she can and more... and this ď I canít live like this anymoreĒ came as a surprise without any indication.

Oh and the last night when I got in, she wanted to know if I wanted to watch survivor with her....I politely declined.

This is nuts.....


Zip
Posted By: Zip

Re: The last straw - 12/06/19 03:02 AM

I feel she has worked me over and the battle hasnít even started

2 weeks ago, we had a conv and I told her she is free to go if thatís what she wants. Said a D isnít what I want but I am not holding her back. Also said Iím not going to pursue her but if she goes, Iím going to be right here at home.

Second thoughts might not have been the best thing to say but in reality, why stay if she is set on going. I now see she has been planning to leave and waiting for the right time.

And to think we have D27s wedding here at the farm in June....this just s#cks! I feel so bad for D27 and that her wedding is in the midst of our D.

Starting to get pissed at the W. Need to remind myself this is her doing. Not mine. Her issues, m
Not mine, and I cant control her...if she wants to go... then....

Zip
Posted By: Zip

Re: The last straw - 12/06/19 03:09 AM

Need to sleep and eat....not much of either the past few days.

I never wanted to be here but, I will be in a better place in the future....just seem that it wonít be with her.

So ironic, I rent to a couple who divorced and now back living together after a couple yrs, I then had a call from a client who was divorced when I met her and she then dated another client of mine. Not long ago I heard she got married again. I asked why she still had her first married last name and she said ď I did get married again, back to my first husbandĒ!

So...never say never....keep DBing..

Zip
Posted By: Ready2Change

Re: The last straw - 12/06/19 03:14 AM



Sorry to hear this.

Do not sign anything. Review things with your lawyer.

I am going to re-read your last several posts.
Posted By: Zip

Re: The last straw - 12/06/19 03:24 AM

Thanks R2C

No not signing anything.

How can she act cool and normal when she knows what she is trying to do to me?

I need to knock off the edgy attitude as it is so instinctive when you feel you are being attacked.

Itís amazing how your best friend turns into your biggest enemy. Talk about a helpless feeling. Didnít get here quickly and wouldnít change quickly.....but time has expired on this M.

Keep thinking....what a loss....for all of us.

Zip
Posted By: Ready2Change

Re: The last straw - 12/06/19 03:25 AM

Do not make any major decisions right now, but you can't sit on things.

1) DO NOT HAVE ANY MORE DISCUSSIONS WITH HER.

2) Part of your plan should include:

I would claim you have not separated. You both live in the same house correct? The day she moves out is the date of separation.

The cash she saved up can go on her half of the balance sheet. (or you can claim part of it). Do some research in the "Real Value" of things. $100K equity in a house does not equal $100K in cash. There are TAX issues as well. DANF is no longer posting here, but he was wise in the financial area.
Posted By: Ready2Change

Re: The last straw - 12/06/19 03:37 AM


It is important to compartmentalize things now.

Take care of you:
1) Talk to med doc and get some sleep aid pills.
2) Ask about aint axiety meds - they help take the edge off
3) Force yourself to eat. Put reminders into your phone

Focus on your relationship with your Daughters:
1) Make your discussions with them about them, not your sitch


Prepare for legal battle with W. She is not your friend right now. You have one giant cookie to split in half. The lawyers want to take as big of bites from it as they can. Draft up your personal list of items with Big value. Try not to quibble over the little things.


At some point every night, tell yourself "I will worry/deal with it tomorrow". It can be whatever is currently going through your head. Write it down on a notpad next to your bed and let it go.
Posted By: Zip

Re: The last straw - 12/06/19 03:37 AM

There are very few who felt it worth trying to salvage, and those who did think it worth trying have now agreed itís time to move on.

When friends and family say they knew she was done yrs ago, shows how blind some of us are to our R,

I donít think I was a great H, and know I gave her issues for trusting me. I also know when we discussed the issues, she didnít engage much at all. I thought the issues were resolved but hindsight now shows she never got over any issues and hence had serious consequences on our M and intimacy.

With that said, I do think I was an above H in trying to show her my love and affection. It fell on deft ears and I kept trying with minimum feedback. Canít be one way. Both conversations and affection. I often thought how I never saw her parents show affection in front of me over a 20 yr span. Could she be a product of her environment? Lessons learned.

All I know is this old dog will need to use these lessons learned moving into the future should I ever want another R.

Definitely not on my radar at this time although I wonder what a reciprocal relationship would be like.

Hard to hold back the emotions.....

Zip
Posted By: Ready2Change

Re: The last straw - 12/06/19 03:41 AM

Originally Posted by Zip

Hard to hold back the emotions....


Find safe times/places to let them out. Never where W can see/hear etc.


Go for a drive and park the car someplace safe. Let them out there. Some cry quietly in the shower.
Posted By: Ready2Change

Re: The last straw - 12/06/19 03:45 AM



sleep:


Deep breath in(nose). Deep breath out(mouth or nose). Repeat 10 times.

Keep breathing as above. Close your eyes. Focus on relaxing your face. Then focus on relaxing your chest. Then your arms. Then your hands. Then your legs. Then you feet.


Start at a 100 count down to 0 by 3s on every breath out. Repeat until you are out.
Posted By: Zip

Re: The last straw - 12/06/19 03:48 AM

Thanks R2C

Exhausted and turning in. Hopefully can get some sleep

Zip
Posted By: DS9

Re: The last straw - 12/06/19 03:52 AM


I second R2C's breathing exercises. Get onto them right now Zip. I find 4 seconds on the in breath and 5 seconds on the out really works for me.

I also repeat the mantra "calm" over and over in my head. I also like a mantra I heard "People love me and go out of their way to help me".

Get onto Davidji's guided meditations. His golden voice would put an ice addict to sleep.

Good luck buddy
Posted By: LovingIt

Re: The last straw - 12/06/19 04:15 AM

Originally Posted by Zip
Been thinking on the separation date being 9/2016...

Found out there is a diff between marital assets and earned assets. Earned assets are not included in a D if earned after the sep date. The marital assets are split at time of D.....so she is trying to protect her nest egg from me. She was able to earn and have min expenses as I was paying the mtge and other exp vs her. She didnít share this until around July this yr. I was not happy she has been withholding this as itís clear there was a motive to it...

Some feel she will lose if and when this date is challenged. She was in the marital bed until aug 3 2019. Up til then we have been a married couple but w/o sex for 3 yrs.

The other option may be to accept the date if all marital assets are valued at 9/16 values and I would get the diff in the values vs her. Itís interesting how you can get sc#@$d w/o even knowing itís coming.

Thoughts?

Zip


Sh*t... this is my worst fear with DB and not filing is that I might get blind sided / f*cked. I guess as a male, you will be screwed even if you go on the offensive and fire the first shot.

She can't just claim any separation date, you either have to agree or she has to prove it somehow. Talk to a lawyer, and do the math with both dates, and see what is most fair to you.
Posted By: AnotherStander

Re: The last straw - 12/06/19 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by Zip

Then came thanksgiving....and the headway I was thinking was taking place definitely not taking hold. W informed me of why she wasnít going to my family gathering as we have for 30+yrs but instead to her sisters house. I was disappointed but agreed she should go. The reasons she gave were not what I expected:

First, my mother called and introduced herself as Wís ex Mil. Although she fought herself before finishing saying it, the damage was done. I questioned my mom why she would have said such and she said it just slipped out.


She didn't go because she didn't want to go. Of course she's going to try to make it sound like yours or your family's fault. But it's not, it's a personal choice she made. Don't beat your mom or brother up over it. Not their fault.

Quote
I was leaving for work and she stopped me saying she had to talk to me...to say ď I canít live here under these conditions any longer....then handed me paperwork to sign ď so she can buy a beach house and move on.


What is the paperwork? S or D or financial or what? Whatever it is, DO NOT SIGN ANYTHING until you've consulted with a lawyer! You're reeling right now from getting punched in the face, you've got to put your arms up and block yourself and regain your composure before you can fight back.

Quote
There is a lot in this doc regarding pending an absolute D and stating we have been separated since Sept 2016.


I agree with you that she's trying to protect her secret savings, and that just ain't going to fly in court. She can't sock away marital assets like that and then pull a date out of her butt to make it all hers.

Quote
She disclosed she has put away $250k over a period of time and now know she is trying to protect this money to buy the house...in addition to expecting 50% of what we own.


This is all fantasy-land. Consult with a lawyer and find out what reality is. I suspect half of that money will be yours.

Quote
Furthermore, she says I have 5 days to sign or her L will drag me into court.....


I would inform her that you are hiring an attorney to help you sort this out and 5 days isn't realistic. Also tell her you are not signing anything without legal advise. She's trying to scare you into signing, and when you don't fall for it then expect the monster to come out. She is going to try to bully you into signing, and then if that doesn't work I bet she'll turn on the charm. "Oh but if you sign this then I can finally move on and that will probably lead to recon later." Expect anything and everything.

Quote
I realize I am getting played and now am wondering how this may work out.


She is TRYING to play you. Luckily you didn't fall into the trap.

Quote
Have an appt next week w L and have been strategizing on how to proceed.


Perfect. Until then completely shut down on her. No chit chat, no R talks, no paperwork talks, NOTHING. Go dark.

Quote
What a f#$&@ mess. All while I was hoping we were making baby steps in the right direction.


Now you know she's been planning this and playing you for a fool for a long, long time.

Quote
Some feel she will lose if and when this date is challenged. She was in the marital bed until aug 3 2019. Up til then we have been a married couple but w/o sex for 3 yrs.


Yeah there is no way that will stand. Most courts don't legally recognize "in-house" separations, I think the court will say you're still not separated even now!

Quote
One idea is being she has not filed for D, I could file and use thee correct date and she will have to fight it vs me.


That actually sounds like a good strategy, but discuss it with your L. I would also tell your L that she's been stockpiling money and find out if there's a way to lock it up before she tries to hide it in an off-shore account or something.

Quote
Second. Maybe try to negotiate all the assets now while she wants something vs waiting and making her mad beyond negotiating....


Again, discussion for the L.

Quote
I am probably not handling this right but I donít want to even be with her in the same room or converse w her.


Until you talk to the L and start getting things organized on your side I think that's for the best.

Quote
Afraid my D23 is prob going to move out w her or to her bf house.


At 23 her days at home are numbered anyway, or should be. She's an adult, she can make her own decisions.

Quote
My questions are what should I do on being with them or should I stay clear of W.


Go dark, lawyer up, get prepared.

Quote
I know now she is ready for a battle to keep all she can and more... and this ď I canít live like this anymoreĒ came as a surprise without any indication.


Live like what? She's going to say in one breath that you've been separated for 3 years and then in the next say she can't stand this anymore? LOL!

Quote
I now see she has been planning to leave and waiting for the right time.


Exactly.

Quote
And to think we have D27s wedding here at the farm in June....this just s#cks! I feel so bad for D27 and that her wedding is in the midst of our D.


That just shows how selfish your W is being.

Quote
So ironic, I rent to a couple who divorced and now back living together after a couple yrs, I then had a call from a client who was divorced when I met her and she then dated another client of mine. Not long ago I heard she got married again. I asked why she still had her first married last name and she said ď I did get married again, back to my first husbandĒ!

So...never say never....keep DBing..


I know several similar stories from friends and coworkers. Some remarried after seemingly impossible-to-come-back-from situations. That's why I always tell people you never know what the future holds.
Posted By: Newbie20

Re: The last straw - 12/06/19 02:05 PM

No kidding! 250K in undisclosed cash AND 50%? This woman is insane. To the OP: hire a lawyer YESTERDAY. i used to do this kind of work.
Posted By: Zip

Re: The last straw - 12/06/19 06:43 PM


R2C, AS, and others.....thanks for the support. I, like others, feel like we are out here alone and you all come to the rescue and secure some sanity back into our lives. GOD BLESS YOU ALL!

So I have an appt with the L on Tues. Trying to get all the info I can to see what will be best. The L has had 2 consults with me so she is somewhat up to speed.... and I did leave a copy of the "Partial Property Settlement Agreement".

This doc states it is in regards to Real Property prior to the enrty of a final decree of divorce.

Says "which they have lived separate and apart from each other, but in the same household, since September 2016, and ....

whereas H and W desire to settle and determine their rights, obligations with regards to Real Property prior to the enrty of a final decree of divorce"

and whereas W has the benefit of competent and independent counsel and H has chosen to represent himself. (WTF.... really???.... oh yea I am going to buy into this crap?)

So W said to me, "if you have questions, my L said you can call her and she will answer any questions you may have.".

When does a L for the W have the ethics of talking to me??? I am really confused with this one and the W thought I may just do that???

UGHH....and just another day of pinball emotions, mad, crying, sad, remorseful, and back to pissed off...not necessarily in that order!

Thank GOD for those who actually care and check in on me...

Taking another chill pill...

Zip
Posted By: Zip

Re: The last straw - 12/06/19 06:50 PM

Originally Posted by Newbie20
No kidding! 250K in undisclosed cash AND 50%? This woman is insane. To the OP: hire a lawyer YESTERDAY. i used to do this kind of work.


Either that or her L is .... But i think she is going for broke and seeing what she comes up with, the sad part is the last statement she made..." either you sign it or my L said she will drag you into court!"

.....okay.....so is this because i am not signing a doc I dont need to sign,....or are you going to criminally charge me because i had some pictures of you without your permission? Either way, it wont be quick and am not sure any will be chargeable. BUT I AM NOT A L....or for that matter, a judge.
Posted By: Ready2Change

Re: The last straw - 12/06/19 07:10 PM





So the legal game begins. I wish you well.


You can speak with other L and represent yourself. Most likely not in your best interest. You don't know the rules as well as other lawyer. Plus, your emotions will not help. You will most likely make a written agreement with a lawyer that allows them to represent you and you will agree in that document not to contact other lawyer directly.


My experience: Whatever retainer you put down initially will not cover all the fees.

You have to take stock of what you have, the value, how it should be split. If you don't the lawyers will get you and your wife to argue over it. You pay them to argue, and they will. Both lawyers will know about all your wealth and take as much as they can. That is the game.
Posted By: Newbie20

Re: The last straw - 12/06/19 07:15 PM

Don't talk to the wife's lawyer. That's a conflict of interest on her part if you haven't agreed to be represented by her. I'd grieve the bi**ch to the state bar.
Posted By: AnotherStander

Re: The last straw - 12/06/19 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by Zip
R2C, AS, and others.....thanks for the support.


Absolutely! Who better to help than those who have "been there done that".

Quote
So I have an appt with the L on Tues. Trying to get all the info I can to see what will be best. The L has had 2 consults with me so she is somewhat up to speed.... and I did leave a copy of the "Partial Property Settlement Agreement".


Perfect. I know this is stressful but you are handling it like you should. Well done! Hang in there!

Quote
whereas H and W desire to settle and determine their rights


Yeah right. More like "whereas H and W desire W desires to settle and determine their her rights, whether real or imagined".

Quote
and whereas W has the benefit of competent and independent counsel and H has chosen to represent himself. (WTF.... really???.... oh yea I am going to buy into this crap?)


Yeah well that's what she's hoping. Welcome to your W's fantasy!

Quote
So W said to me, "if you have questions, my L said you can call her and she will answer any questions you may have.".

When does a L for the W have the ethics of talking to me??? I am really confused with this one and the W thought I may just do that???


Your W is about to get a rude wakeup call when she finds out you're not just letting her walk all over you.

Quote
UGHH....and just another day of pinball emotions, mad, crying, sad, remorseful, and back to pissed off...not necessarily in that order!


That's OK for you to feel those things. You're processing that while handling it like you should. You're separating your emotions from your actions. Again, well done!
Posted By: Ready2Change

Re: The last straw - 12/06/19 07:21 PM

Originally Posted by Zip
.....okay.....so is this because i am not signing a doc I dont need to sign,....or are you going to criminally charge me because i had some pictures of you without your permission?
This is all about money. You have a business to split up. You want to do it as cheap as possible for your family without you getting screwed over. Do not quibble over the little things.

List out the big items:

401K Value (Tax implications)
House equity value (Not easily liquidated)
$250K in hidden cash by wife
Land value
Posted By: Zip

Re: The last straw - 12/06/19 08:20 PM

Originally Posted by Ready2Change




So the legal game begins. I wish you well.


You can speak with other L and represent yourself. Most likely not in your best interest. You don't know the rules as well as other lawyer. Plus, your emotions will not help. You will most likely make a written agreement with a lawyer that allows them to represent you and you will agree in that document not to contact other lawyer directly.


My experience: Whatever retainer you put down initially will not cover all the fees.

I am sure of this. The best part is W is in love with $$ and hates to spend it. this will hopefully get us to the finish line at a lesser amount than if she didn t think that way. She is smart and will hopefully make smart decisions and not what the L tells her.


You have to take stock of what you have, the value, how it should be split. If you don't the lawyers will get you and your wife to argue over it. You pay them to argue, and they will. Both lawyers will know about all your wealth and take as much as they can. That is the game.


I have been assembling a spreadsheet for just that. She apparently has as well. So this is why her L is in for the battle. She has seen the #s from the W...whether they are right or not is unknown.

Interesting she said in Sept that she had all the info she needed to proceed with a D then, I didnt give her a damn thing and now know as she doesnt want any up to date info. Just 2016 . this has been the plan...the one she said didnt exist.
Posted By: Zip

Re: The last straw - 12/06/19 08:25 PM

Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Originally Posted by Zip
.....okay.....so is this because i am not signing a doc I dont need to sign,....or are you going to criminally charge me because i had some pictures of you without your permission?
This is all about money. You have a business to split up. You want to do it as cheap as possible for your family without you getting screwed over. Do not quibble over the little things.

List out the big items:

401K Value (Tax implications)
House equity value (Not easily liquidated)
$250K in hidden cash by wife
Land value



the large items will be the sticking spots Unfortunately there is everything above involved. I think if we can get this done while she has a desire to go, it may be beneficial to both parties. Get it done now and not drag on. There is an incentive on her behalf if she really wants to go. Otherwise we can snuggle up the the checkbooks and Ls for the next how many months or yrs.
Posted By: Zip

Re: The last straw - 12/06/19 08:31 PM

as my brother said, you need to look at this as a business decision only. Do what will be best for you and dont let the emotions get involved. And you need to play as nice as possible....to not lose more than you otherwise will.

Why is it that it always seems the LBS is always fighting from a handicapped position. She wants to go, so why do I need to make all the concessions....to the tune of $250k and potentially have my business ripped up, and I have to sell the farm.... just getting things off my chest.

Never saw a nice D...they MUST all SU@k

Zip
Posted By: Ready2Change

Re: The last straw - 12/06/19 09:34 PM

The more familiar you are with things the better. Read your states statues.



Posted By: Ready2Change

Re: The last straw - 12/08/19 04:27 AM

How you holding up?
Posted By: Zip

Re: The last straw - 12/09/19 03:09 AM

Originally Posted by Ready2Change
How you holding up?


Been an interesting and uneventful weekend. Given the circumstances, I guess okay. Had to pick up livestock from an animal hospital 11/2 hrs away and D23 went w me. Had a tough time carrying a conv with her but got better by the time we got back. It was time well spent. On way back W offered to get us lunch from market. We got back and D 27 and W had lunch. All ate together as there were no problems.

Got in from working outside and D 23 had left for eve. Was wondering how everything would unfold. I sat and was on my iPad when W came in. Asked if I wanted to watch blacklist. Which then went to survivor. No conv at all about doc or plans...just acted as everything was normal...then called an eve and she went to bed. No issues. Fought emotions while alone working outside alone. Overall the first day having any communication with her since Monday when she gave me the doc.

Yesterday, I mentioned ads and BFs and I were heading to get Christmas trees and she was welcome to go. She went and we had a good time. Got home and we both started decorating.. ass if there are no issues. Had a couple pics of her and I w tree which is odd for her who usually avoids pics with me. She fixed dinner and it was a nice eve with the whole family. For some reason , I asked if she would give me a hug and she said yes w/o hesitation but an odd look. Prob wondering why but she usually would blow me off as she was working. Overall a great day.

So to answer...I am holding up. No idea what is going through her head and need to take none of this as positive movement. I have been on an emotional roller coaster but trying to not show any of it to her.

Personally very confused. Canít tell or read where she is. She has acted like this before and would not act on statements since August. This doc is the first after stating she is filing for D but actually said 3 times she has been waiting for a spouse waiver to buy a house and move out.

No idea what is ahead. Will meet w L on tues pm and know more. My IC only says she doesnít understand and says she can see how I am very confused.

I need to hope for the best but prepare for the worst. One day at a time..

Thanks for checking in on me R2C.

Any advice would be great..

Zip
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