#15 Back to a cautious piecing - DivorceBusting.com

Previous thread:

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2863240&page=11

One thing is also like to point out. Many people new to my threads may not realize that we were firmly in Ring and piecing. Last week I found she was in contact on an online game with a guy that was remote (even in another country). She didn't BD me on confrontation. She immediately took steps to keep Ring and piecing, including full transparency and giving up the game and others too.

So this is a lot different than what we went through on Dec 2017.

That said, it is unacceptable. And I'm not going to simply sweep it under the rug.

You have the tools Stevie. You know how to use them.

Greatful dead`s Touch of grey comes to my mind.

Hope, respect. Patience.

Love

You both will get by. And it�s alright man.

Thank neffer.

BTW everyone, divorcebusting.com is back at work! WOOHOO

Let me up front and say that I am NOT advocating this approach. But, it's something I've been thinking about in general.
It more or less boils down to a R-rated and potentially damaging version of "if you love it, set it free." I am not saying that it will work either, but I am generally curious how this would fundamentally drive personal growth from both parties and potentially build something from it. Something Esther Perel says - "your first marriage is over. would you like to create a second one together?"

What if, and a big big if, you gave your W permission to follow her fantasy down the rabbit hole and see what she finds? Get to the rock bottom of it? You in the meantime are not waiting in the wings while she goes on her own discovery path, but take one of your own. A path that asks the same questions that your W is asking, but in a more direct way - why do you want to be in the relationship? what is about the other person that brings you fulfillment? would you be able to find fulfillment with someone else? In a way, open the relationship up for 12 months and see what happens. An experiment of sorts.

I understand this goes against principles of fidelity.

As I said, I don't even know if I would be able to do this, but one thing I know for sure - I will never ask someone to be in my life if they didn't want to be there fully and present with me. I'd rather be single and explore all that I want in life than be with someone who is 95% in. And who is willing to face the ups and downs in a relationship and be in a full partnership - whatever that looks like. The golden saying about decision making goes - 98% is hard, 100% is easy.

As a man of faith, I know what I have proposed goes against not just the Christian faith, but almost all the major religions of the world. The other way to potentially get to the finish line with your W is IC/MC and taking advantage of short circuiting her WW path.

Anyways, you asked me for it and so I gave it. As I said, I am not saying that you entertain this approach. I am merely projecting what I would NOW consider with all what I know and what types of challenges I am willing to bring on.

I also understand that this may offend people's sensibilities about monogamy, marriage, fidelity etc, and I respectfully see that. I am just sharing an unconventional approach that has piqued my curiosity.

Maika, ah ok. Yes that would definitely fly in the face of our faith. But then again, so does one spouse sneaking and engaging in this type of behavior.

The night I confronted her, as Blu pointed out, she took on a defensive tone. Right before we ended the conversation, I called her out on it and she admitted that she was embarrassed and ashamed which is why she was being defensive (and defiant). The next day we discussed it briefly. I actually floated this as a hypothetical, but in a very flippant way. "What am I supposed to do? Say go have a day? And then start engaging with women on the internet in similar manner? To me that is an open relationship and not something that I am open to." She immediately said no, that isn't what she wanted either, and that she knew it was wrong.

It is an interesting thought, but you are right that it is counter to my beliefs. Thanks for sharing though Maika.

Hi Steve,

Look here for "Deep Personal growth":
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2061094#Post2061094

Originally Posted by Ready2Change

Hi Steve,

Look here for "Deep Personal growth":
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2061094#Post2061094

Thanks R2C, any experience with a book called Open Her?

Originally Posted by Steve85

Thanks R2C, any experience with a book called Open Her?

Looks like 7 great ways to be more seductive.

The main reason I remember the DPG book was how they worked though the "We BOTH want out stage".

Originally Posted by Maika

Let me up front and say that I am NOT advocating this approach. But, it's something I've been thinking about in general.
It more or less boils down to a R-rated and potentially damaging version of "if you love it, set it free." I am not saying that it will work either, but I am generally curious how this would fundamentally drive personal growth from both parties and potentially build something from it. Something Esther Perel says - "your first marriage is over. would you like to create a second one together?"

What if, and a big big if, you gave your W permission to follow her fantasy down the rabbit hole and see what she finds? Get to the rock bottom of it? You in the meantime are not waiting in the wings while she goes on her own discovery path, but take one of your own. A path that asks the same questions that your W is asking, but in a more direct way - why do you want to be in the relationship? what is about the other person that brings you fulfillment? would you be able to find fulfillment with someone else? In a way, open the relationship up for 12 months and see what happens. An experiment of sorts.

I understand this goes against principles of fidelity.

As I said, I don't even know if I would be able to do this, but one thing I know for sure - I will never ask someone to be in my life if they didn't want to be there fully and present with me. I'd rather be single and explore all that I want in life than be with someone who is 95% in. And who is willing to face the ups and downs in a relationship and be in a full partnership - whatever that looks like. The golden saying about decision making goes - 98% is hard, 100% is easy.

As a man of faith, I know what I have proposed goes against not just the Christian faith, but almost all the major religions of the world. The other way to potentially get to the finish line with your W is IC/MC and taking advantage of short circuiting her WW path.

Anyways, you asked me for it and so I gave it. As I said, I am not saying that you entertain this approach. I am merely projecting what I would NOW consider with all what I know and what types of challenges I am willing to bring on.

I also understand that this may offend people's sensibilities about monogamy, marriage, fidelity etc, and I respectfully see that. I am just sharing an unconventional approach that has piqued my curiosity.

Sounds like a version of the movie HallPass. On one hand you want to take away the Forbiddeness of the the forbidden fruit. On the other hand, she is playing with temptation, but I understand completely where Maika is coming from with this about either being 100% there and in, or not at all. That's my attitude with my sich currently, and I really don't know if it's the right one to have because pride can seep its way into it. On the other hand it's still a matter of principle. Steve I know I'm a Noob here. But it sounds like your wife needs validation, flirtation and compliments from other men. You should ask her to explore the reason why in IC. it sounds like she needs to learn the difference between seeking a novelty or thrill to make her feel excited, and the difference between operating from morals and principles continuously and consistently

Hey Steve, I think you are getting alot of good insight on here... Sandi's in particular, given her own WW experience with online gaming and EAs.

None of us here know you IRL or have seen your sitch up close in person, but some of the things others have posted on here resonate with me:

In particular, i think you should keep in your mind the possibility that she is, as someone else posted, merely "in a time out". My own WW went through a couple such periods where she would give up a burner phone or not go out with her gf's or otherwise "behave herself" for a spell... and, yes, she would even throw some contrite-sounding sound-bites out there, but she was always yearning to get back to her WW lifestyle as soon as she could. It was only when she was convinced that she HAD lost me (not just that she might) that things really started to turn for her. Not sure your W has yet ever gotten to that point-- you have been DB-ing like mad, and doing a great job of it but... and this is crucial... you have to remember that you can't "nice her back" or even, IMHO, "attract" her back by being AMOAFWL. She has to get to the spot on her own where she wants to come all the way back and put her waywardness behind her. Only the almighty knows for sure if she is currently at that point, but i think, as Sandi cautions, that there is reason to be wary in this case.

Also, if she IS at that point, i think it is going to be crucial for her to be in IC, and with a counselor that a) she is comfortable with and b) understands the addictive nature of EMAs and the dangers of relapsing. A couple folks above mentioned the importance of addressing trauma or other important dynamics and events of childhood, and they are absolutely right. In our initial early forays into MC and IC, my w (and even I, to a lesser extent) scoffed at the idea that talking about one's own childhood would have any utility in addressing problems in a MR. The funny thing is, once we got to the point... and particularly once SHE got to the point... where we were both bought in 100% to the counselling and trying to repair the MR, talking about her childhood traumas, issues, and hangups was one of the most important components to our reconciliation. The point of all this is, i guess, to say you should be very mindful of how you go about choosing your counselors. I was extremely blessed to have one just kind of "pop up" through a long-lost friend that i hadn't seen in probably 25 years... amazing coincidence... and she turned out to be just what we needed. At any rate, don't just pick someone at random, try to find out something about them, and don't just necessarily pick the most experienced or highly rated (ours was fairly young had just struck out on her own with her own practice-- Christian marriage counselor and sex therapist... didn't think there even was such a thing, lol). It goes without saying that any counselor you choose should be pro-marriage. If possible and both are amenable, it probably would help if your counselor is Christian, but i wouldn't get married to that idea, necessarily.. My own W, as it sounds as if yours does, has a bit of a conflicted relationship with her own faith, and she resisted at first the idea of faith-based counselling (which resulted in a couple of visits early on to someone we just picked at random with high ratings which turned out to be a disaster-- both because the counselor was just not a good fit with us and our situation, but also because my W just wasnt ready for counselling at that point-- which is something you yourself should evaluate and consider as a possibility in your sitch.)

At any rate, hang in there! Keep DB-ing! Im pulling for ya and sending some prayers your way.

Thanks, hoos. Your post is awesome.

My W really is all in on faith. But like the rest of us she is fallible. Which is why we need faith in the first place.

Our MC was phenomenal. She did a great job and I attribute my marriage not ending a lot to her work. She did a especially good job getting me to see how selfish and self-centered I was for the majority of my life. We'll probably go with someone new not that we live so far from her practice, so your advice will come in handy.

Ok everyone. I have something I have to confess. Something I've never admitted in this forum before, but based on my current circumstances I feel it is extremely necessary to come clean.

I've had my own EAs.

Wow this is harder to post than I thought it would be.

I'm so sorry to disappoint you all.

I've had 4 total. First two were 17 and 18 years ago. Those I admitted to my wife after her EA in 2005.

The last two were 8 and 6 years ago.

So I'm in no position to judge anyone.....

Steve, you're human. I've never had an EA or PA, but made plenty of mistakes. No stones to throw.

Hi Steve,

Further to my previous and your reply about your W's childhood trauma - wow, that is huge, and I really empathise.

IMHO, this may be the key issue. IMHO, with this type of serious unresolved childhood trauma and abandonment (particularly your MIL sweeping things away, which is huge) without addressing it, doing anything else may be like trying to fix a smoky engine by constantly replacing the muffler.

Can I suggest you look into EMDR therapy for your wife? Spare no expense in getting the best if you do. You are golden in having a W who is open to IC.

Further to mine and Hoosjim's posts Steve, I remember listening to a podcast by an American Family therapist called 'Dr Deb'. I cant remember further identifying details other than she very much underscored the importance of getting a registered and trained 'Family Therapist', and she was very specific with that term, and to interview the Family Therapist to establish credentials, experience etc. I remember listenign to her and being amazed by what she was saying.

Confessions aside. This is not about judging anyone. It's about assessing the situation and advising accordingly based on DB principles.

It's about advising how to proceed regarding the current turn of events.

Appreciate the honesty and being candid Steve. EAs are a slippery beast to define and I am guessing when you say that you had EAs, you were engaged in some fantasy or sharing things that you wouldn't with your W. I've come to have a more sober look at EAs and I am not quite sold on them in the same way that I was before as I see there is a lot of nuance to it - but that's for another time.

Looks like you've worked through your EAs, but you still have a pattern just like your W. Have you done the self-reflective work on why this pattern exists? what are you doing differently now to meet your own needs by yourself to not have an EA? I believe this is an interesting piece of information because I think you need to address this pattern with her in counseling.

Who�s in position to judge S? We all need to learn from life. That�s all.

Respect

Originally Posted by Steve85

I've had 4 total. First two were 17 and 18 years ago. Those I admitted to my wife after her EA in 2005.

The last two were 8 and 6 years ago.

So I'm in no position to judge anyone.....

You are human and everyone makes mistakes. If anything, it helps you empathize with your W and forgive her. This is huge because there can be no R without forgiveness first.

However, be careful not to confuse judging and being able to forgive with just accepting disrespectful behavior on her part. Your mistakes more than 6 years ago should not be justification for her actions today.

Stay strong!

Originally Posted by Steve85

I've had my own EAs.

We are all sinners. Repentance and forgiveness are the keys.

How can you use this to strengthen your bond with W?

My lady and I talked about this a long time ago:

I tell her to get dressed up sexy and go to location XYZ at 7p and wait for me.
I show up later than her, lets say 8p.
Most likely, some guy will be showing her interest when I get there.
I walk up and make out with her.

I have done this at least 3 time now.

Does it hurt or help my relationship? She gets to feel sexy. She gets to feel desired. She gets to feel protected. It is all about her feelings.

How to you improve the intimate bond with your W?

Steve, does your W know about your EA's? If so, how were they addressed at the time? I'm just curious that if she knew about them, her attitude now is "well you did it so I don't understand why you're making such a big deal out of me doing it".

Originally Posted by Ready2Change

Originally Posted by Steve85

I've had my own EAs.

We are all sinners. Repentance and forgiveness are the keys.

How can you use this to strengthen your bond with W?

My lady and I talked about this a long time ago:

I tell her to get dressed up sexy and go to location XYZ at 7p and wait for me.
I show up later than her, lets say 8p.
Most likely, some guy will be showing her interest when I get there.
I walk up and make out with her.

I have done this at least 3 time now.

Does it hurt or help my relationship? She gets to feel sexy. She gets to feel desired. She gets to feel protected. It is all about her feelings.

How to you improve the intimate bond with your W?

Thanks.

I feel really guilty right now. Ashamed. And as I said I do not feel like I can take a firm stand against this, as firm as some of you here are advocating, because I have the whole "he without sin cast the first stone" thought process.

I do think I will pick up a book on emotional cheating. I usually dive into a subject when I find myself up against a wall.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander

Steve, does your W know about your EA's? If so, how were they addressed at the time? I'm just curious that if she knew about them, her attitude now is "well you did it so I don't understand why you're making such a big deal out of me doing it".

AS, always feel honored to get your input. In fact, I was going to take a break from the forum, then saw you had responded. My W does know about the first 2. Not the last 2. At the time, after her very deep, and strongly connected EA in 2005, I came clean about the first two. We recommitted to each other and moved forward. Admittedly, I think she did more work in 2005 than I did. Yes, I know that hers was the situation that prompted the issues, but I didn't DB the way I could of. I didn't 180, GAL, nor find a healthy self-differentiation like I should have. Like a lot of immature husbands I felt that there was no in-between. Either I was doting, overly attached....or I was detached. I now understand the nuance of being lovingly detached in a healthy way, and still being being plugged into the MR and upholding my end.

I believe that if she knew about my last two, that attitude you suggest might be hers. But since the night I confronted, she has taken full ownership, and is willing to work to fix things.

S,

I understand your need to take a break. It sounds like with both of you committing multiple EAs that there is definitely something missing from each of you in your marriage. I wonder if religion and your daughter are the only things holding it together?

Take some time before making any permanent decisions.

Originally Posted by Steve85

In fact, I was going to take a break from the forum,

The forum is emotionally draining, even when in just a support role. Helping others gives me a clearer idea on how to interact with my woman. There is a balance.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change

Originally Posted by Steve85

In fact, I was going to take a break from the forum,

The forum is emotionally draining, even when in just a support role. Helping others gives me a clearer idea on how to interact with my woman. There is a balance.

I think the other thing that is hard is to watch people change over time. My W is not the girl I married. I know that, yet my brain sometimes wants to go back to when she was. And think of her that way. Being a mom. Losing their identity. Menopause. Depression. AD medications. All have an effect and changes who they are. Her personality is much different than it was. Her capacity to empathy has changed.

We went on vacation with her mom and step-dad camping 2 years ago. Her mom and stepdad are extremely picky eaters. 70+ years old and act like toddlers if there is something they don't like on their plate. So we go to lunch, order sandwiches, and when the girl brings my step-FIL his sandwich there is a -GASP- dill pickle spear on his plate. He goes into meltdown mode about it being on his plate. My W looks at him across the table and says "OH GROW UP. So what, there is a pickle on your plate. Just don't eat it if you don't like it!" Her mom pipes up: "But if you don't like pickles then you don't want pickle juice on your plate." My W says: "Oh wahhhhhh. Whatever, be a grown adult and deal with it!"

10 years ago no WAY does she have this exchange.

So all of that is, I believe a result of the things I've mentioned above. It manifests in other ways to. She isn't nearly as affectionate as she used to be. She is a little more callous in the way she says things. Etc.

She still has a heart of gold, she really does. But to say she is more selfish than she was 10 or 20 years ago is an understatement.

There is an old saying.

Women marry a man hoping he will change. Men marry a woman hoping she won't.

Steve, did your EAs 6-8 years ago involve ILUs and nude picture exchanges like your wife's? It seems to me an EA is more loosely defined than a PA, and all EAs while harmful are not equivalent.

Originally Posted by CWarrior

Steve, did your EAs 6-8 years ago involve ILUs and nude picture exchanges like your wife's? It seems to me an EA is more loosely defined than a PA, and all EAs while harmful are not equivalent.

Yes.

Originally Posted by Steve85

My W does know about the first 2. Not the last 2. At the time, after her very deep, and strongly connected EA in 2005, I came clean about the first two. We recommitted to each other and moved forward.

So it sounds like that has not been a factor in her having these EA's, that's mainly what I was curious about. Given your above response and your very strong expressions of remorse here, I'm wondering if you feel like you need to come clean to her on the second two EA's? I am absolutely not suggesting that you do or don't, merely asking you where your heart is on that. I know you're a man of faith so I suspect it's been eating at you a long time.

Quote

I believe that if she knew about my last two, that attitude you suggest might be hers. But since the night I confronted, she has taken full ownership, and is willing to work to fix things.

Obviously opening up to her about yours now could be very difficult given her recent activities. That would be a very difficult choice to make and I certainly don't envy you. Maybe something to discuss with your IC, or privately with your MC.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change

The forum is emotionally draining, even when in just a support role. Helping others gives me a clearer idea on how to interact with my woman. There is a balance.

Absolutely. In some ways reading other sitches makes me relive some of the pain I went through in mine and that can be difficult at times. But it also reminds me of why it's important to be very vigilant in my current R's, not just with my GF but with my kids and even my ex. And it is therapeutic helping others, and who better to help them than those of us who have walked a mile run a marathon in their shoes.

Quote

I believe that if she knew about my last two, that attitude you suggest might be hers. But since the night I confronted, she has taken full ownership, and is willing to work to fix things.

Obviously opening up to her about yours now could be very difficult given her recent activities. That would be a very difficult choice to make and I certainly don't envy you. Maybe something to discuss with your IC, or privately with your MC.

FWIW, I found it difficult to "come clean" with my W about various things while she was obviously still wayward. At the very first, mind you, before i got me feet under me and started DB-ing, I was all "Im so sorry, I effed up our MR, what can I do?" etc etc... But that was, obviously, not at all helpful and i quickly wised up and stopped doing that. There were, however, things that i DID need to take ownership of like mishandling and hiding the family finances, as well as things that happened during her WW days (like my nights out and some of the monitoring) that, as I presume it is with your own EAs, I did not feel like it was helpful to be disclosing at that time. And my MC/IC backed me up on this. Later, though, when it became clear she had had her "turn" and was bought-in on repairing the MR, i did start sharing some of that with her, and it proved to be a good choice to have delayed-- it was less worrying/threatening to discuss my own missteps at that point having the confidence that we were reconciling. Not that i was "off the hook" mind you, but we were, I am convinced, able to address those issues in a much more constructive fashion without putting the MR at additional risk during the previous period when it was under much greater stress.

Keep up the good fight... praying hard for you and your W...

Well, I may come off as looking a bit mean, but I'm not going to tell you that your just human and that everyone makes mistakes (at least not yet). I was amazed after you got a few verbal pats on the shoulder, you quickly returned to the subject of how your W has changed. You don't want to talk about your four affairs, but you jump right back where you left off with her.

Quote

Ok everyone. I have something I have to confess. Something I've never admitted in this forum before, but based on my current circumstances I feel it is extremely necessary to come clean.

I've had my own EAs.

Wow this is harder to post than I thought it would be.

I'm so sorry to disappoint you all.

It's not so much about disappointing us.......although, I'll admit it does, b/c you've presented yourself as the faithful spouse for 1 1/2 years. Did you ever consider the advice from some of us might be just a little different if you had been upfront at the beginning? I mean the basic principals wouldn't change, but I think you know what I mean. I went back and read your threads again, and it's interesting when it's read with seeing you as the faithful spouse and then reading it again after finding out you are just as guilty as your W.

Quote

I've had 4 total. First two were 17 and 18 years ago. Those I admitted to my wife after her EA in 2005.

So you had two EA's before she had one, right? Was it the two women you referred to in previous posts?

Okay, so then you had two more EA's after her's in 2005. Was it with the same woman or same two women?

Quote

I feel really guilty right now. Ashamed. And as I said I do not feel like I can take a firm stand against this, as firm as some of you here are advocating, because I have the whole "he without sin cast the first stone" thought process.

Steve, you feel guilty & ashamed b/c you have not been totally honest with your W, or even with those who wanted to help you. You knew people looked up to you and respected the advice you offered. Yet, you continued to play a role. I can't help but wonder if this parallels with your church life. You are playing a role in your M, at church, and in life. No wonder you are exhausted! Take it from one sinner to another, it will catch up with you. I don't know if you have squared things away with God, but I encourage you to do what you believe and teach. I also encourage you to seek His perfect will for how you address this situation. I pray that you will find peace in your heart. Once you know you are right in the eyes of God, then you can stand up for what is right. You can stand against sin, without stoning the sinner. ((hugs))

Quote

Originally Posted by CWarrior
Steve, did your EAs 6-8 years ago involve ILUs and nude picture exchanges like your wife's? It seems to me an EA is more loosely defined than a PA, and all EAs while harmful are not equivalent.

Yes.

Instead of us having to pick you, why not tell us about the EA's?

The first one was someone I had met while dating my wife. She started flirting and emailing nude pictures. This was back in the infancy of digital photography. She kept pressing to meet for "coffee", her euphemism for hooking up. I never let it get that far and she eventually meet someone and moved on. She was in the middle of a divorce when she was propositioning me. She lived about 15 minutes from me. This lasted about 6 months in 2000.

The second one was a woman I met online, on a online chatroom. She was in a semi open relationship. She listened to my marital problems mostly around me being a sex-starved husband. We web-cammed, and she did do some nudity on cam for me. She to started pressuring me to meet to relieve my pent up sexual energy. She alluded to performing acts on me without actually having intercourse. She lived about an hour away. At that point I cut off contact. My personal boundary was actually meeting in person. This one went on about 4 months in 2001.

W knew about both of those after I came clean following her EA in 05.

I stayed clear of all online activity like that afterward. And avoided social media.

Then (this is the difficult one to admit to), my longtime on again off again girlfriend contacted me via email in 2010. Eventually she started texting. Her marriage was rocky, she had just ended a 2 year PA with a guy I know. We started just confiding in each other. But eventually out turned sexual. There was sexting, even some phone sex. She would talk about meeting but it never materialized. I cut it off at one point but it started back up. It lasted overall about 21 months. She started going to MC to work on her marriage. By the way, she's contacted me on and off since 2012, sometimes trying to rekindle things but I've been resolute since then that there is no chance. Oh she lived about a half hour away.

The fourth was another girl I met, quite a bit younger than me (12 years), that I met online just after getting married. She was interested (lives about an hour away), but I made it clear I was married and not looking to cheat. We stayed in casual contact for years. She got married in 2007. In 2013 her marriage was having trouble. And she was pregnant with her only child. She contacted me, and it turned into sexting with her sending nudes. It lasted about 5 months and she later blamed it on pregnancy hormones and her husband not wanting to have sex while she was pregnant. She insinuated I took advantage of that.

That's the major details. I probably don't need to tell you all that in all 4 cases my marriage was not very good, and of course these actions didn't help. Further, I had various jobs stresses during the last two. Not an excuse but these helped me escape since this weren't great at home. I vowed after 2013 to never again let things like this happen.

Sandi, yes I've prayed and asked for forgiveness. Though my beliefs on true repentance means I will need to confess to my W at some point.

Obviously I'm very ashamed of these. I refuse to ever give in to such temptation ever again!

I've been listening to podcasts with Dr Glover where he discusses NGS within his life context. One of the huge things for him early on, and one aspect he says must be dealt with to recover from NGS, is being honest with yourself, and he did this by telling his support group all his little secrets, but was really worried that everyone would think ill of him - they didn't though.

Good on you Steve for having the guts to put it out there!

For what its worth, the accumulated weight of invaluable advice, motivation, perspective and encouragement you've given to people on this forum who come here in the darkest days of their lives, to me, far, far outweighs any personal indiscretions you've done.

Bravo Steve!

Originally Posted by DS9

I've been listening to podcasts with Dr Glover where he discusses NGS within his life context. One of the huge things for him early on, and one aspect he says must be dealt with to recover from NGS, is being honest with yourself, and he did this by telling his support group all his little secrets, but was really worried that everyone would think ill of him - they didn't though.

Good on you Steve for having the guts to put it out there!

For what its worth, the accumulated weight of invaluable advice, motivation, perspective and encouragement you've given to people on this forum who come here in the darkest days of their lives, to me, far, far outweighs any personal indiscretions you've done.

Bravo Steve!

Thanks DS9. That was tough to admit to. But I am glad I did. I also thank sandi for her tough love!

I�m sure it was hard to come clean. But over the years you didn�t come clean to the person it matters to. You need to come clean about the ones you didn�t, especially the most recent one.

Yeah, it really is hard to hold firm to your boundaries when you have done the same. I get that. But you are just going to have a marriage of lies and ready going forward. Living with that guilt until old age will be a tough one.

I think your best bet is to come clean and let the will happen, happen. Maybe a clean slate is what you both need. Having a marriage built on a foundation of lies will never be a good thing.

IDK, Steve and I'll probably get flamed for saying this, but that's okay. And the answer is between you and God.

Confessing something that is old and done like this is IMO, in a way, taking your burden and dumping it on your W. Are you telling her for her benefit or your own? Does she need to know? Did she ask you?

Like I said, IDK. I just want to put that out there.

Originally Posted by RR17

IDK, Steve and I'll probably get flamed for saying this, but that's okay. And the answer is between you and God.

Confessing something that is old and done like this is IMO, in a way, taking your burden and dumping it on your W. Are you telling her for her benefit or your own? Does she need to know? Did she ask you?

Like I said, IDK. I just want to put that out there.

Sometimes things are better left in the past, yes. But when you are trying to enforce boundaries on things you are guilty of yourself and you are hiding, kind of makes you a hypocrite, don�t you think?

But I guess that is between you and god Steve. But it will be difficult

Come clean or don�t come clean S the choice is yours. My personal opinion is that you come clean and both of you get into IC and MC immediately and tackle it head on. You and your W need to figure out what is missing in your R because obviously there are needs not being met. I have said it before but my fear for you is that once your daughter is out of the house one of you will pull plug. That�s is why I feel you need to tackle it head on, I don�t think whatever is not being met is going to fix itself.

TB and Steve,

I would love to get your advice and thoughts in my thread!

Originally Posted by Ginger1

Originally Posted by RR17

IDK, Steve and I'll probably get flamed for saying this, but that's okay. And the answer is between you and God.

Confessing something that is old and done like this is IMO, in a way, taking your burden and dumping it on your W. Are you telling her for her benefit or your own? Does she need to know? Did she ask you?

Like I said, IDK. I just want to put that out there.

Sometimes things are better left in the past, yes. But when you are trying to enforce boundaries on things you are guilty of yourself and you are hiding, kind of makes you a hypocrite, don�t you think?

But I guess that is between you and god Steve. But it will be difficult

The bible says:
�You have heard that it was said [a]to those of old, �You shall not commit adultery.� 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." Mat:27-28

So should I confess this every time I find a woman attractive?

We are all hypocrites. It's part of being human. So when is it okay to leave something in the past and who gets to decide?

Nothing fires me up more than when the Bible is twisted to suit ones motive .

I would say an affair with nudes phone sex and I love you�s Is a little more than finding a woman attractive, wouldn�t you say? Then I guess it would have suited Steve better to have no transparency, never find out about his wife on the game flirting and they both could keep all these things hidden and nothing will ever get fixed.

That is so far off in a comparison.

From what you are saying is they can go in sinning and if no one says anything, it�s like it�s not even happening.

How does that go forward and help what their issues are to the core?

Using the Bible that was disgusts me and I won�t even get into that.

Steve, do what you see fit, but you could both go and have EA�s when the marriage isn�t good, keep them secrets and not get to the core of the issues that are making these happen with some good therapy and open honesty.

Maybe ignorance is bliss for some

Ginger you go girl lol!

Originally Posted by Ginger1

Nothing fires me up more than when the Bible is twisted to suit ones motive .

I would say an affair with nudes phone sex and I love you�s Is a little more than finding a woman attractive, wouldn�t you say? Then I guess it would have suited Steve better to have no transparency, never find out about his wife on the game flirting and they both could keep all these things hidden and nothing will ever get fixed.

That is so far off in a comparison.

From what you are saying is they can go in sinning and if no one says anything, it�s like it�s not even happening.

How does that go forward and help what their issues are to the core?

Using the Bible that was disgusts me and I won�t even get into that.

Steve, do what you see fit, but you could both go and have EA�s when the marriage isn�t good, keep them secrets and not get to the core of the issues that are making these happen with some good therapy and open honesty.

Maybe ignorance is bliss for some

Ginger, my objective is not to win any debate. I am simply defending my words. Where is the twist?
Please don't put words in my mouth. If I am wrong, tell me where.

I did tell you where.

You say �should I tell my wife every time I find a woman attractive?� I didn�t put those words in your mouth.

Of course not. If Steve was just being attracted to other women, nothing should ever be said. We are all attracted to the opposite sex despite our relationship status. That�s actually healthy. It�s when we act on it. And when one You are comparing apples to oranges.

He acted on it

Hey everyone, appreciate the perspectives. I guess the thing is that my W claims she wouldn't care as long as it isn't a PA. Not sure I trust that.

I do believe that sins of the past should not prevent you from speaking out against those sins now. I've admitted to being an alcoholic when I was younger (25 years sober BTW), but now I still speak out against alcohol at every chance I get. Paul denied Christ during the crucifixion but then later accused the Jews in Jerusalem of denying Christ. I do not see past sins as making one a hypocrite. Now if I was actively in an EA today, and was confronting my W or others about their EA, then yes I would be hypocrite.

I am not saying anyone is wrong either. I do not think you are wrong if you think I should come clean, nor if you think I should bury it. I see merits in both. Mainly I wanted the truth out here on this forum. I almost came clean a few times before but never did because admitting even past faults can be difficult. But I wanted you all to have full perspective on this.

..and my point is that it is a personal decision of when it is appropriate. Siting the bible doesn't make it any more clear. Slinging labels like Hypocrite doesn't either.

I asked a rhetorical question to make this point. Things like:

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From what you are saying is they can go in sinning and if no one says anything, it�s like it�s not even happening.

That is putting words in my mouth. I never said nor inferred that.

Originally Posted by RR17

The bible says:
�You have heard that it was said [a]to those of old, �You shall not commit adultery.� 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." Mat:27-28

So should I confess this every time I find a woman attractive?

That's not what the passage means. The passage is talking about a man who is consumed with a woman- imagining her naked, having sex with her, obsessed with the idea of getting together with her, to the point that it is affecting his work and his relationships with his family. This is world's apart from seeing a woman and thinking "wow she's attractive!" I used to moderate a Christian forum and we got a lot of questions/statements like this and we spent time researching the original meanings of certain words used and the difference between those words and the King James translation. This is one of those instances where the English translation does not convey the true meaning of the original Hebrew.

Originally Posted by Ginger1

I did tell you where.

You say �should I tell my wife every time I find a woman attractive?� I didn�t put those words in your mouth.

Of course not. If Steve was just being attracted to other women, nothing should ever be said. We are all attracted to the opposite sex despite our relationship status. That�s actually healthy. It�s when we act on it. And when one You are comparing apples to oranges.

He acted on it

Well stated.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander

Originally Posted by RR17

The bible says:
�You have heard that it was said [a]to those of old, �You shall not commit adultery.� 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." Mat:27-28

So should I confess this every time I find a woman attractive?

That's not what the passage means. The passage is talking about a man who is consumed with a woman- imagining her naked, having sex with her, obsessed with the idea of getting together with her, to the point that it is affecting his work and his relationships with his family. This is world's apart from seeing a woman and thinking "wow she's attractive!" I used to moderate a Christian forum and we got a lot of questions/statements like this and we spent time researching the original meanings of certain words used and the difference between those words and the King James translation. This is one of those instances where the English translation does not convey the true meaning of the original Hebrew.

This is why I believe EAs are grounds for Christian divorce. Not all agree with me on that.

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Hey everyone, appreciate the perspectives. I guess the thing is that my W claims she wouldn't care as long as it isn't a PA. Not sure I trust that.

I am sure I wouldn't trust that. People say things to help support their own actions. My W said many untruths when I confronted her. It's all part of the lies we tell ourselves when we self justify. When our actions go against our own moral code.

Originally Posted by RR17

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Hey everyone, appreciate the perspectives. I guess the thing is that my W claims she wouldn't care as long as it isn't a PA. Not sure I trust that.

I am sure I wouldn't trust that. People say things to help support their own actions. My W said many untruths when I confronted her. It's all part of the lies we tell ourselves when we self justify. When our actions go against our own moral code.

I should point out that she did go on to say "I would be surprised by it". I think that is because she sees me as being of integrity and that image would be shattered.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander

Originally Posted by RR17

The bible says:
�You have heard that it was said [a]to those of old, �You shall not commit adultery.� 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." Mat:27-28

So should I confess this every time I find a woman attractive?

That's not what the passage means. The passage is talking about a man who is consumed with a woman- imagining her naked, having sex with her, obsessed with the idea of getting together with her, to the point that it is affecting his work and his relationships with his family. This is world's apart from seeing a woman and thinking "wow she's attractive!" I used to moderate a Christian forum and we got a lot of questions/statements like this and we spent time researching the original meanings of certain words used and the difference between those words and the King James translation. This is one of those instances where the English translation does not convey the true meaning of the original Hebrew.

Well, I've studied the bible in depth for through BSF for 11 years and blah blah blah..
Please don't pull that Bible high arch with me.

IMO, (this means "In my opinion") it is not just a verbal nuance to soften delivery. You are welcome to your own opinion. IMO, it means that we are all sinners and similar example are made regarding murder.
We are all hypocrites. It is because of grace that we are forgiven and not good behavior. But listen this isn't a theology discussion.
My biggest challenge with this forum. Is some here are more interested in proving their own point, instead of understanding that of another.

I�m not trying to prove any point except that was a very poor comparison. We are all sinners but when we want someone to practice what we haven�t been honest about in the past, it fixes nothing. In this instance, I think it would be highly productive to come clean given their circumstances.

Anyways, not up for a religious debate either, but I found it quite hilarious that my ex blatantly committed adultery with a BBY ON THE WAY, but his marriage to his affair partner was allowed in the Catholic Church because we weren�t married in the Catholic Church. So it was never recognized so he really never committed adultery.

Originally Posted by Ginger1

I�m not trying to prove any point except that was a very poor comparison. We are all sinners but when we want someone to practice what we haven�t been honest about in the past, it fixes nothing. In this instance, I think it would be highly productive to come clean given their circumstances.

Anyways, not up for a religious debate either, but I found it quite hilarious that my ex blatantly committed adultery with a BBY ON THE WAY, but his marriage to his affair partner was allowed in the Catholic Church because we weren�t married in the Catholic Church. So it was never recognized so he really never committed adultery.

All I ask is that you do not lump all faiths into the shortcomings of a particular denomination. I agree, let's steer clear of further religious debates because that really isn't the point. Regardless of religious views, you feel I should come clean to her. I can't tell you that you are wrong because that may indeed be the right approach.

We can all discuss tactics and strategies till the sun burns out, but what's missing from this conversation is 'values'. What are your values Steve? What values do you believe build a strong relationship? For me, that is honesty, trust, transparency, kindness, accountability, and love.

Drive your actions from your values. I would put everything out in the open and then see if this marriage is worth saving. Yeah, that's scary, but that is the only way forward from my perspective.

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What values do you believe build a strong relationship? For me, that is honesty, trust, transparency, kindness, accountability, and love.

and copious amounts of sex

^^^^^^^^ oh for sure

^^^^^^^^^^^

Originally Posted by TBSakaJ9

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What values do you believe build a strong relationship? For me, that is honesty, trust, transparency, kindness, accountability, and love.

and copious amounts of sex

Interesting aside. SO when I found out she was chatting with this guy, she mentioned that he was sex-starved, and that they bonded over that with my W saying she identified with his W. That he wanted more sex, they hadn't had sex in a month, and that my W couldn't remember the last time we had sex.

I pointed out that our sex life had been much more frequent, and the quality was way up. She said "Has it?" I was incredulous. I said, we've averaged at least once a month, if not more, including March of 2018 when we did it about 10 times in 2 weeks, and that she had initiated almost every time during that 2 week period. She had no recollection. It was crazy. Admittedly. her memory has never been that great, but I would think she'd at least acknowledge how much better our sex life has been. And while it diminished a bit over the summer due to house guests, we still had sex just a couple weeks before this discussion with her online friend.

Steve, I trust you have heard both perspectives in spite of any righteous indignation.

It's all clear as mud now.

Go your own way and as always, take what W says with a grain of salt. I support you regardless of your decision.

Originally Posted by RR17

Steve, I trust you have heard both perspectives in spite of any righteous indignation.

It's all clear as mud now.

Go your own way and as always, take what W says with a grain of salt. I support you regardless of your decision.

RR thank you. I appreciate that more than you can know.

Originally Posted by Maika

We can all discuss tactics and strategies till the sun burns out, but what's missing from this conversation is 'values'. What are your values Steve? What values do you believe build a strong relationship? For me, that is honesty, trust, transparency, kindness, accountability, and love.

Drive your actions from your values. I would put everything out in the open and then see if this marriage is worth saving. Yeah, that's scary, but that is the only way forward from my perspective.

This is �my point� I was trying to drive home. For the benefit of you and your marriage Steve, not because I�m touting what�s �right� and what�s �wrong�

Originally Posted by Ginger1

Originally Posted by Maika

We can all discuss tactics and strategies till the sun burns out, but what's missing from this conversation is 'values'. What are your values Steve? What values do you believe build a strong relationship? For me, that is honesty, trust, transparency, kindness, accountability, and love.

Drive your actions from your values. I would put everything out in the open and then see if this marriage is worth saving. Yeah, that's scary, but that is the only way forward from my perspective.

This is �my point� I was trying to drive home. For the benefit of you and your marriage Steve, not because I�m touting what�s �right� and what�s �wrong�

I didn't mean what is right or wrong from a religious standpoint. I meant what is right and wrong for my marriage. As I said, I see both viewpoints, and there are merits on both sides of the argument.

I guess if it wasn't my sitch I would advocate for what you and Maika are. I need to think and pray on it some more.

Again S you and your W need to find out what the missing link is. I am not an expert by any means but maybe there is something missing in the bedroom. Maybe your W has some desires she has never expressed before. Maybe you do as well...��

Food for thought.

Originally Posted by TBSakaJ9

Again S you and your W need to find out what the missing link is. I am not an expert by any means but maybe there is something missing in the bedroom. Maybe your W has some desires she has never expressed before. Maybe you do as well...��

Food for thought.

TY TB. There certainly was something missing in the bedroom during my EAs. She was on one edge of the bed, I was on the other. However, the literal space between us couldn't even compare to the figurative space between us. We went years in between sex at one stretch. I am not exaggerating. We were averaging 2 times a year, with months, and years in between. Again, this is not a valid excuse for my choices. Just the way it was.

Same during her EAs, we were so disconnected (note to newbies, this is different than detached) that she eventually went looking for the emotional and sexual connections she was craving.

I've recently realized that we as partners need to have the following connections with our spouses:

-physical
-intellectual
-spiritual
-emotional
-sexual

The last two for most people are the most powerful. I now concentrate on trying to connect with her on all 5 of those levels.

I was referring more to sexual desires, spicing up the bedroom, maybe there are some dark fantasy's within you both that need to be itched. Given your faith those things might be hard to express.

Again just trying to explore what might be missing.

I find it absolutely bizarre that there are 'two-sides' of a conversation around the need for truth and transparency in a relationship. Aren't we LBS's so gung-ho on holding our partners to this line when we have been deceived? I find it intriguing that you are asking your W to meet a standard that you won't meet yourself. And the values I described are part of every single faith in this world, so it's not something out of left field.

Originally Posted by TBSakaJ9

I was referring more to sexual desires, spicing up the bedroom, maybe there are some dark fantasy's within you both that need to be itched. Given your faith those things might be hard to express.

Again just trying to explore what might be missing.

TB, I would have agreed with you 2 years ago. Now, we are pretty spicy! I have no complaints in the bedroom, but I will explore whether or not she feels the same.

Originally Posted by Maika

I find it absolutely bizarre that there are 'two-sides' of a conversation around the need for truth and transparency in a relationship. Aren't we LBS's so gung-ho on holding our partners to this line when we have been deceived? I find it intriguing that you are asking your W to meet a standard that you won't meet yourself. And the values I described are part of every single faith in this world, so it's not something out of left field.

Maika, I completely understand that. But there are people that advocate NOT burdening your spouse with things so far in the past, and they have good reasons for advocating that. I think it would be much more black and white of an issue if we were talking about 6 months ago, or even a couple of years ago.

Again, I am definitely not saying you are wrong. And I may even end up fully heeding your advice.

Just a thought Steve considering she is a SAHM, Christ follower, etc. Maybe she could fit the mold of desiring something different, "the bad boy", the lifestyle of no responsibilities, etc.

One of my XW's best friend was married to a guy for 20 years who was a buttoned up, polo guy, clean shaving, good dad, your proto typical professional.

She divorced him for some dude that was bald, had a bunch of tat's, a big old foo man choo, and was jacked. Looked like he was straight out of some motorcycle club.

Just explore the possibilities of what her desires might be.

More perspective:

Maybe her problem isn't yours to solve. Maybe what is missing is on her. From some of the stuff you shared, I tend to believe it is.

Steve, I expect you and I are alike in often thinking that we have to fix everything. I think that is often a big mistake.

Boundaries and let them figure out what is missing. Just don't think you can always do it.

Originally Posted by TBSakaJ9

Just a thought Steve considering she is a SAHM, Christ follower, etc. Maybe she could fit the mold of desiring something different, "the bad boy", the lifestyle of no responsibilities, etc.

One of my XW's best friend was married to a guy for 20 years who was a buttoned up, polo guy, clean shaving, good dad, your proto typical professional.

She divorced him for some dude that was bald, had a bunch of tat's, a big old foo man choo, and was jacked. Looked like he was straight out of some motorcycle club.

Just explore the possibilities of what her desires might be.

So which one do you think I fall into? LOL

I shave my head. I have a tat. I usually wear a foomanchoo/goattee (though I am growing a full beard for hunting season). Admittedly I am less "jacked" than I was when her and I met.

However, I also clean up pretty well, where polos to work, and am successful at work as well.

HAHA.....well then get more tats!

Originally Posted by RR17

More perspective:

Maybe her problem isn't yours to solve. Maybe what is missing is on her. From some of the stuff you shared, I tend to believe it is.

Steve, I expect you and I are alike in often thinking that we have to fix everything. I think that is often a big mistake.

Boundaries and let them figure out what is missing. Just don't think you can always do it.

All fair comment. I even told her during this last incident that I didn't know if I could make her happy. She said, "it isn't up to you to make me happy." I was impressed with that response.

Originally Posted by "Steve85"

I shave my head. I have a tat. I usually wear a foomanchoo/goatee

Woah! Steve is both rolled up into one. Now we know it's her issue. :p

Originally Posted by "Steve85"

"it isn't up to you to make me happy."

Impressive.

Originally Posted by TBSakaJ9

My personal opinion is that you come clean

Timing is important. Now might be too soon. You could also wait too long.

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and both of you get into IC and MC immediately....whatever is not being met is going to fix itself.

Do this.

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You and your W need to figure out what is missing in your R because obviously there are needs not being met.

This is what is important. Maybe "OPEN and HONEST" is missing.

Do your research on this:
retrouvaille

Lead your wife through this. You can handle it.

Originally Posted by Steve85

I shave my head. I have a tat.

Well that changes everything...I can't be your friend....lol

Originally Posted by Ready2Change

Originally Posted by TBSakaJ9

My personal opinion is that you come clean

Timing is important. Now might be too soon. You could also wait too long.

Quote

and both of you get into IC and MC immediately....whatever is not being met is going to fix itself.

Do this.

Quote

You and your W need to figure out what is missing in your R because obviously there are needs not being met.

This is what is important. Maybe "OPEN and HONEST" is missing.

Do your research on this:
retrouvaille

Lead your wife through this. You can handle it.

Looked into retrouvaille. My concern is it is catholic based, we are not catholic. That in and of itself is not a problem, but Sunday worship becomes a problem. We will want to step away for a couple hours to worship with like-minded people (not necessarily OUR congregation). The information I read was that that was frowned upon.

I am still open to it though.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change

Originally Posted by Steve85

I shave my head. I have a tat.

Well that changes everything...I can't be your friend....lol

LOL

Originally Posted by CWarrior

Originally Posted by "Steve85"

I shave my head. I have a tat. I usually wear a foomanchoo/goatee

Woah! Steve is both rolled up into one. Now we know it's her issue. :p

Originally Posted by "Steve85"

"it isn't up to you to make me happy."

Impressive.

LOL

She does agree that it is wholly her issue. I just hope she has the fortitude to work on it.

Steve , what�s the current plan of action you are doing ?

Originally Posted by Tryhard

Steve , what�s the current plan of action you are doing ?

She has offered of her own volition full-transparency. I now have access to all of her accounts and devices.

IC for her and MC for us is also a requirement. (Remember, we are currently not in MC due to the old house still being for sale.)

We continue to discuss the last point. I don't think she is real enthused about Cing.

Originally Posted by Steve85

we are not catholic.

I am not a woman. That does not mean I don't know how a tampon works.

That�s her plan , what�s yours ? Btw I think Rville is probably a great path for you both You

Originally Posted by Tryhard

That�s her plan , what�s yours ? Btw I think Rville is probably a great path for you both You

My plan is to continue to work on me. Huge GAL this weekend, I'll be up at the hunting property all weekend.
Continue to cement my 180s. I am not sure she is totally convinced that bad Steve won't eventually reappear.
Continue to be self-differentiated. Recently saw this stated as being the best individual that you can be. A successful couple is made up of two complete individuals.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change

Originally Posted by Steve85

we are not catholic.

I am not a woman. That does not mean I don't know how a tampon works.

That wasn't my point. My point was that it being over a Sunday is problematic for us.

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W knew about both of those after I came clean following her EA in 05.

I stayed clear of all online activity like that afterward. And avoided social media.

Then (this is the difficult one to admit to),

You are preaching to the choir, b/c I know how hard it is to admit, even to a group of faceless people behind their computers. I'm glad you opened up about it on the board, and my hope for you is to heal. I want to note here how you proactively took measures to avoid the snare of online chat rooms, dating sites, etc. That is what we have to do. Recognize the first act we took that led us down an inappropriate path. Responding to an email or text from an old flame, going into a chatroom, joining a dating site, etc.........are first steps.

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my longtime on again off again girlfriend contacted me via email in 2010. Eventually she started texting. Her marriage was rocky, she had just ended a 2 year PA with a guy I know. We started just confiding in each other. But eventually out turned sexual. There was sexting, even some phone sex. She would talk about meeting but it never materialized. I cut it off at one point but it started back up. It lasted overall about 21 months. She started going to MC to work on her marriage. By the way, she's contacted me on and off since 2012, sometimes trying to rekindle things but I've been resolute since then that there is no chance. Oh she lived about a half hour away.

I find it interesting, and maybe this is a "man thing", IDK............but in posts about your W's OM and your OW, you state the mileage/time distance of the affair partner. Maybe H's link the distance of the affair partner to their availability, or lack thereof, for a PA. It's just something I've noticed in other LBH's posts, also.

[

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The fourth was another girl I met, quite a bit younger than me (12 years), that I met online just after getting married. She was interested (lives about an hour away), but I made it clear I was married and not looking to cheat. We stayed in casual contact for years. She got married in 2007. In 2013 her marriage was having trouble. And she was pregnant with her only child. She contacted me, and it turned into sexting with her sending nudes. It lasted about 5 months and she later blamed it on pregnancy hormones and her husband not wanting to have sex while she was pregnant. She insinuated I took advantage of that.

That's the major details. I probably don't need to tell you all that in all 4 cases my marriage was not very good, and of course these actions didn't help. Further, I had various jobs stresses during the last two. Not an excuse but these helped me escape since this weren't great at home. I vowed after 2013 to never again let things like this happen.

When a person's needs in their MR are not met for a long time, I believe they can become vulnerable and search for something that fills that void. I'm not trying to excuse an affair, just saying that when you went to a chatroom, you were looking for something. It seems that you and your W have both tried to fill a void through other means. Perhaps sex therapy might help, IDK, and have no experience with it. I told you early on that I was M very young and had extremely little knowledge about sex and zero knowledge of how sex (and especially the lack thereof) affects a man's health.

In the second paragraph, you used a key word that feeds online EA�s. That word is "escape". That was exactly what I was trying to do. I had no desire to meet any those guys in person. I just wanted to flirt and escape my reality. Plus, they fed my ego......but that's how the game is played. It usually doesn't stop with flirting, b/c the whole scenario is inappropriate, so eventually it's going to involve more.

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Sandi, yes I've prayed and asked for forgiveness. Though my beliefs on true repentance means I will need to confess to my W at some point.

Okay, the hard part is forgiving yourself. Take 100% ownership for your choices. Don't blame the other women or stress for the EA's, and don't have a victim mentality due to the SSM. I know it's difficult, Steve, and I'm not saying that the SSM didn't condition you, but you still have to fully own it, in order to completely heal, IMHO. You will always deeply regret what you did, but you can move forward and not stay stuck in the past. IDK how fragile your W is, and I'm not going to tell you to confess your EA's to her at this time. I think it should be under the direction of a therapist........and of course, God leading you. I often say that "timing" is everything. I believe it with all my heart.

Personally, I look at finding a faith-based therapist much like I look at a surgeon. If she/he is a Christian, that�s a plus��..but quite frankly, what is more important is that she/he is highly qualified and experienced to perform surgery on me.

You�ve had 1 � years and I realize she needs therapy for her childhood issues, but maybe you need to lead the way in finding a therapist, rather than waiting on her to make the move. If you will find a therapist to see both of you together, then she/he would probably recommend a psychiatrist to your W, suggest changing her meds, etc. Make sense?

(((hugs)))

Hey Steve

Want you know that I recently volunteered that I had some of my own failures (maybe EA) from years ago. I want to work towards transparency with my wife (which feels like giving her TT from the BS incidentally, and I worry might kill us, sadly) now that she's started seemingly trying. I've told her a few things in batches over the last week. She always reacts so horrifically that it's difficult for me but I'm doing my best even if she refuses to see that.

Shes still angry, maybe she'll leave, but I feel better moving towards not having any of my own secrets.

Steve, it seems like based on the EAs of both you and W, neither of you is happy in the relationship. Given the history of EAs dating back to more than 15 years ago this does not seem to be some sort of short term crisis either. I am curious if you have given any thought to perhaps both of you may be better off with someone that actually makes you happy? Do your MC/IC have any thoughts on this? What are the reasons you are choosing to stay in a situation that has had you both unhappy for such a long time? Sorry for the blunt question.

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I pointed out that our sex life had been much more frequent, and the quality was way up. She said "Has it?"

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I found this exchange very interesting. It sounds like either WW selective memory "script"-- only remembering the bad and not the good about the MR or else just flat out misremembering the facts to fit their narrative. Alternatively, it is a case of mismatched expectations. Either way, a WHOLE lot conveyed by just a couple of words.

Another unrelated thought... Someone suggested a sex therapist and I would definitely endorse that based on personal experience. There are MC s who are also sex therapists... Gives them extra insight into intimacy on all levels. If you can find one who is also faith based and pro-marriage, jackpot. We found one such and she was so helpful we'd drive 3 1/2 hours to see her (she also did telemedicine sessions). At any rate, MC "fit" is crucial, and it definitely sounds as if sexual issues might be present in your case... And that therefore som sex counseling expertise might be in order

Originally Posted by MLCxH

Steve, it seems like based on the EAs of both you and W, neither of you is happy in the relationship. Given the history of EAs dating back to more than 15 years ago this does not seem to be some sort of short term crisis either. I am curious if you have given any thought to perhaps both of you may be better off with someone that actually makes you happy? Do your MC/IC have any thoughts on this? What are the reasons you are choosing to stay in a situation that has had you both unhappy for such a long time? Sorry for the blunt question.

I think this is a fair question to ask. However, the answer is similar to almost anyone that omes here looking for help. And that's when it's going well it is really good. There have been a lot of issues between us and individually that have caused our issues. Rather than throwing in the towel and giving up we've chosen to stick it out and work on those issues. It is incorrect to categorize us as solidly unhappy for 20 years. Has there been unhappiness? Yes, but not too the point where or ultimate decision was to D. Not that it hasn't been a consideration at times for one or both of us.

Hey Steve hope things are improving mate. Keep giving all you�ve got so you know you left no stone unturned. I suggested last week emdr therapy for your wife. Do both of yourselves a favour and look into it. Good luck D

Hey Steve, I see a lot of well-meaning advice and speculation in your thread in recent days. You have made a big impact on many people here, including me, and we feel the need to reciprocate.

We are all flawed people and I think that anything other than advice on how to proceed in DBing is inappropriate and sanctimonious. All of our sitchs a similar yet different and although some paths of action are clear, other's, only we can say for sure. And as Sandi pointed out, timing is everything.

The "Right Person Myth" is one many people fall for. The very idea that we will perform our best and be happy within a relationship once we meet the Right person is a delusion that exempts us from fixing our own faults.

I know you understand this. Besides, it's not the point of this forum.

Let us know how things progress and we are all here with your best interest in mind.

Steve, just read about all this and seems a lot has happened in the few weeks since I left. Hope you are ok and that things will get better for you!

Thanks guys. Appreciate all of you. GAL huge this past weekend. Was up at the property all weekend. W and I were in contact appropriately on text and calls. I was trying to strike a balance between being connected (since our connection has been so strong) and having her miss me a bit. When I got home last night she came right over and gave me a huge hug and a kiss.

The bump in the road seems over. I still will insist on counseling, but I will definitely need to lead on that. I will take all of the outstanding advice given here for that as the time approaches.

Thanks for the support everyone! I know I was one of the success stories, and I think I still am. Despite her slipping up, and my admission to my past transgressions. One of the things that is soooooo important in DBing is not focusing on what you can't change (the past) but focusing on doing thing the right way from this moment forward.

You ARE one of the success stories.

You know what?
This is life.
And life must be lived everyday.

Originally Posted by neffer

You ARE one of the success stories.

You know what?
This is life.
And life must be lived everyday.

This is gold. Thanks neffer.

Originally Posted by Steve85

Originally Posted by MLCxH

Steve, it seems like based on the EAs of both you and W, neither of you is happy in the relationship. Given the history of EAs dating back to more than 15 years ago this does not seem to be some sort of short term crisis either. I am curious if you have given any thought to perhaps both of you may be better off with someone that actually makes you happy? Do your MC/IC have any thoughts on this? What are the reasons you are choosing to stay in a situation that has had you both unhappy for such a long time? Sorry for the blunt question.

I think this is a fair question to ask. However, the answer is similar to almost anyone that omes here looking for help. And that's when it's going well it is really good. There have been a lot of issues between us and individually that have caused our issues. Rather than throwing in the towel and giving up we've chosen to stick it out and work on those issues. It is incorrect to categorize us as solidly unhappy for 20 years. Has there been unhappiness? Yes, but not too the point where or ultimate decision was to D. Not that it hasn't been a consideration at times for one or both of us.

Fair enough. It is easy to look at the 'grass is greener on the other side' and throw in the towel. One of the things we fail to do in our MRs is look at the green grass on our own side as often as we should. If we did that there would be less dissatisfaction and unhappiness and as a result less temptation to stray from the MR.

Originally Posted by Steve85

...GAL huge this past weekend. Was up at the property all weekend. W and I were in contact appropriately on text and calls. I was trying to strike a balance between being connected (since our connection has been so strong) and having her miss me a bit. When I got home last night she came right over and gave me a huge hug and a kiss.

I also try to balance in some dirty/flirty texting when I am away from my lady.

From my notes:

Quote

Blame is always about the past. Solutions must occur in the present. You must choose between blaming someone else or solving problems. You can not do both.

Please start a new thread and link both threads together.

New thread:

https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...flat&Number=2864960&#Post2864960