Hello all. I've been following the forum for the last couple of weeks, and I've found it to be very helpful. My wife (34 years old) decided 4 weeks ago that she was no longer in love with me, and told me she was considering getting a divorce.
A couple of days later, it was revealed that she is having an emotional affair with some guy who lives 1000 miles away, and she refuses to stop texting with him. I told her that with the OM in the picture, our relationship could not possibly move forward in any way. She still refuses to stop communicating with the OM.
Now, I admit our marriage was not perfect, and I certainly was not perfect. But now she says the last 13 years of being together were hell for her because I was too controlling and selfish. I was not aware she felt this way, and I told her that these are things we can work on, if only we both commit to working on them.
She says that now she doesn't know what she wants, and that she needs time and space to think about herself. She has moved into a hotel down the street, but still comes by to play with the dogs, to do her laundry here, and sometimes she has dinner with me. We don't have any kids.
My question is: How do I proceed with this situation? Should I do the LRT? Or just the regular non-LRT stuff in the book The Divorce Remedy? Or something else entirely? Help please!
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Hi Dbx80,
The first thing is to take deep breaths and pause. Don't be in a rush to contact her or make big decisions.
Days into my sitch I rashly decided to Go Dark (similar to Last Resort Technique) when I wasn't ready for it and broke down and contacted her 3 days later. lmao. I probably set my situation back 3 weeks!
Over and over we see folks worsen their sitch with impulsive actions.
I'm sorry you're going through this.
A couple of days later, it was revealed
How was it revealed? There's a difference between her telling you and you discovering on your own. Do you know how long this EA has been ongoing? How did it start? How serious is it?
she refuses to stop texting with him.
How does she justify having an EA while married? Has she told you why she won't stop talking to him?
The more we know about your story the better the board can advise!
Hi CWarrior. Thanks for your response.
The EA came to light when I saw her texts showing up on her iPad in real time (her iPad was at home with me, and she was out and about with her iPhone). I later confronted her about it, and she admitted it.
She justifies the texting by saying they are just friends, that’s he’s just a distraction, and that he really listens to her. I’ve explained that those types of “flirty” texts are highly inappropriate for a married spouse, but i suppose she thinks that since she’s “unsure” about whether she wants to continue in the marriage at this point, it’s no longer “cheating” since we’re “on a break.” She’s told me that I can date others if I want to, “as long as nothing physical happens.”
So yeah, it’s all kind of a mess...
She’s asking for time and space so give her time and space. When she comes to see the dogs make sure you have plans. You can’t make her stop the EA. Sounds like she thinks you’re a control freak so that is more of the same behavior. Too early for LRT. Become less available and never contact her first. When she contacts you keep it business like.
Hi LH. Sometimes she asks me to dinner or to lunch. Should I decline those invitations? Or accept but keep it “business like” during the meal? Or...?
Nobody goes to hell willingly, much less stays there for 13 years.
She most likely moved out for a reason that you won't like. I'd be scarce as well, especially if she was at the house.
Don't decline all the invites, just have plans 70% off the time.
Give her the time and space she is asking for.
What is the point of being scarce? On the one hand, I understand that being scarce will give her the "time and space" she has requested. On the other hand, I feel like giving her all this time and space will just bring her closer to the OM, whom she is still texting with on a regular basis (per her own admission).
Wouldn't it be better to be friendly and available with her so that she can see that I'm not the monster her wayward mind has suddenly framed me to be, and so that I can compare favorably to the OM? I feel like being scarce would just affirm her current thoughts about my being selfish and neglectful.
I guess what I'm asking is: Isn't it better to be friendly than absent? I'm not talking about pursuing her or pressuring her. I'm just talking about being present and friendly when we happen to be in the same room together for whatever reason.
And I know, I don't just want to be friends with her. I want to be her life-long husband. But don't people have to be friends before they become lovers and life-long partners?
I guess I just find it hard to believe that by leaving her alone and being scarce, that she will just magically "snap out of it" and coming running back to me. Being passive and distant like that doesn't sound like a winning strategy to my logical brain.
You should always be cordial when in the same room together.
So you are asking if you should compete with OM for your W?
You say above that she is asking for time and space and you are indicating you don’t want to give her time and space so in essence that is more selfish behavior. Everything above is about what you want.
What you want her to do is to wonder about you.
What is the point of being scarce?
Hey DBX, sorry to see you here mate.
Think of it this way. Imagine you now intensely disliked someone who once was very close to you, and wanted them nowhere near you. This is how your W feels about you now.
Would it make you feel better about that person you now dislike if they hovered around you? Probably not. In fact, you'd probably dislike them more.
Listen to LH19, ovrrnbw and the other veterans here, and trust the process they put to you. You're lucky in that you've come here early. Make sure you've read Sandi's 37 rules - print them off. Start DB'ing! Her leaving you means you need to adopt a DILLIGAF attitude to that.
Being passive and distant like that doesn't sound like a winning strategy to my logical brain.
There is very little logic to the actions of these spouses who leave. Trust me, I'm a big logic guy and I'm still struggling with the lack of logic 7 months later. Your W's decision was emotional.
But don't people have to be friends before they become lovers and life-long partners?
Not really mate. When I first met my XW at a club, within 5 minutes she was 'reading my palm' and telling me there was a line on my palm which said she'd be my next lover. It's about emotion, attraction, and the vibe you give off.
Good luck mate!
OK, I understand what you’re saying. It’s just confusing because, for example, today she came over to have dinner with me. If you “intensely dislike someone” as DS9 put it, do you go to their house to have dinner with them and talk for 2 hours? Remember that she is staying in a hotel and really has no need to come by the house except to see the dogs every couple of days. So the fact that she chooses to come over for dinner and conversation with me suggests that she does not “intensely dislike” me. Am I wrong?
BTW, I always try to keep the conversations light and pressure-free. I don’t mention the relationship unless she brings it up first.
She might have just come over for dinner b/c OM couldn't entertain her and she's tired of feeling shacked up in a hotel room without fresh food.
Decline the next invitation or prepare to start being there for her when she is clearly not there for you. Do you think she would find that attractive? Do you think people want the things that they already have and know they can have whenver they want?
Keep reading, keep posting Dbx.
Remember "believe nothing that they say and half of what they do".
Part of the rules are counterintuitive. Trust them. You can´t compite with OM and she´s gonna read
you are still trying to control her. Give her time and space as requested. You are gonna need them too.
Keep studying DB. It takes time. Be patient.
Thanks for the input ovrrnbw and neffer. Lately, she has been coming over for dinner pretty consistently almost every night. What am I supposed to do? I can't just leave my house every time she shows up. Am I supposed to go hide in the bedroom while she's in the kitchen eating her dinner? That doesn't seem like an attractive thing to do. Help?
How about some boundaries on when she can and cannot come over? How about having other plans?
Hi LH19. I'm not sure I'm in a position to set boundaries regarding access to the house, as we both own the house 50/50. As far as "having other plans", I can certainly do that once or twice a week, but what about the other 5 days? I guess I'm just getting stuck on the practical aspects of being "scarce" in my own home.
Well you can go cut the grass, go for a walk, go to the gym, work on a project etc.
What LH says. GAL, GAL, GAL.
GAL!
DBX, I was in a similar sitch. W was staying in another room of the house, absolutely certain she was going to divorce me, but was happy to make dinner for the two of us, watch TV together, I cleaned up. No arguments, no anger. Maybe not as many conversations as you. Two questions I had to answer were: 1) is she being my lover and partner, or is she being a friend? 2) what do I want?
For me, this was absolute friendzone, maybe a bit of her using me, too (we also maintained the illusion of family for our daughter, giving W more time and more control over the relationship). As to the second question, I want a wife, not a friend. So, I stopped being her friend. It's been a challenge to balance because I naturally like people and want to be around them. I had to force myself to limit myself to being cordial, not sharing too much. What I'll tell you specifically is that you need to GAL and do 180s. Go ahead and make dinner, but bring it to a friend's house. Or make it for yourself, not her. Eat early, eat late, whatever, but you aren't her cook. Maybe have people over. Whatever it is, do what you enjoy, and do new things.
Final thought: if you keep doing what you've always done, you can't expect a different result. Whatever narrative your W has for you, you are confirming it every time you do what you've done before. I can't tell you what the right answer is but I can tell you the wrong one: doing what you've done before.
Thanks for the input ovrrnbw and neffer. Lately, she has been coming over for dinner pretty consistently almost every night. What am I supposed to do? I can't just leave my house every time she shows up. Am I supposed to go hide in the bedroom while she's in the kitchen eating her dinner? That doesn't seem like an attractive thing to do. Help?
Well you certainly could.
But you shouldn't be there when she shows up. You should be out doing something. And not every time but often.
Hi LH19. I'm not sure I'm in a position to set boundaries regarding access to the house, as we both own the house 50/50. As far as "having other plans", I can certainly do that once or twice a week, but what about the other 5 days? I guess I'm just getting stuck on the practical aspects of being "scarce" in my own home.
You can only do fun things one or two days a week? Cmon. Your lady moved out but wants to come back for a little dose of you as she sees fit, but you can't get out and enjoy life? What is stopping you, seriously? What things are preventing this?
DBX, I was in a similar sitch. W was staying in another room of the house, absolutely certain she was going to divorce me, but was happy to make dinner for the two of us, watch TV together, I cleaned up. No arguments, no anger. Maybe not as many conversations as you. Two questions I had to answer were: 1) is she being my lover and partner, or is she being a friend? 2) what do I want?
For me, this was absolute friendzone, maybe a bit of her using me, too (we also maintained the illusion of family for our daughter, giving W more time and more control over the relationship). As to the second question, I want a wife, not a friend. So, I stopped being her friend. It's been a challenge to balance because I naturally like people and want to be around them. I had to force myself to limit myself to being cordial, not sharing too much. What I'll tell you specifically is that you need to GAL and do 180s. Go ahead and make dinner, but bring it to a friend's house. Or make it for yourself, not her. Eat early, eat late, whatever, but you aren't her cook. Maybe have people over. Whatever it is, do what you enjoy, and do new things.
Final thought: if you keep doing what you've always done, you can't expect a different result. Whatever narrative your W has for you, you are confirming it every time you do what you've done before. I can't tell you what the right answer is but I can tell you the wrong one: doing what you've done before.
This is solid gold in simplicity
Wouldn't it be better to be friendly and available with her so that she can see that I'm not the monster her wayward mind has suddenly framed me to be, and so that I can compare favorably to the OM? I feel like being scarce would just affirm her current thoughts about my being selfish and neglectful.
You won't compare favorably to the OM. OM = Fantasy. You can't compete with a fantasy. Do some research and googling on limerence affairs. It hurts, but the sooner you understand and accept what is happening, the better you will be able to respond.
The fantasy needs to break. It needs time. Part of her fantasy is that you will still be around for her needs - take that away. Then give the OM time to show his imperfections. Then give the A time to develop cracks. Live your life while that happens.
You can't compete anyways as a man desperately pursuing a woman who doesn't want him. You can compete eventually as strong, independent Dbx80 who knows he deserves better than her and is moving on with his life. You are awesome and are going to kick butt at life with or without her.
Thanks everyone for your responses.
I do wonder though: everyone on here seems so sure of themselves about what I should be doing. How many of you have actually reconciled with your spouses, and are now happily married?
DB,
I'm reconciled with my W. We are working on our M daily. So happily, I won't say that, I would say we are both working hard to make each other feel safe.
But there are no guarantees, we still have our arguments and disagreements. But now, after an, (let me say disagreement) we listen to each other.
Onward and upward
Hi Dbx80, my partner and I are on better terms than ever. Note, my situation involved no EAs or PAs and we're only 2 yrs in--hence my advice being limited to, being slow to speak, and slow to make big decisions! I was in a 10 year relationship before that and was the WAS in that marriage.
Like you, I've been accused of being controlling. Truth! My partner was sometimes controlling, too. I'm now more cognizant of controlling behavior and quick to say, "I control me, you control you."
I'm also better at listening/validating and expressing my feelings in a healthy way.
Lately, she has been coming over for dinner pretty consistently almost every night. What am I supposed to do? I can't just leave my house every time she shows up. Am I supposed to go hide in the bedroom while she's in the kitchen eating her dinner? That doesn't seem like an attractive thing to do. Help?
Are you inviting her over for dinner? If not, how does she let you know she's coming? Is she doing her laundry there, and manages to be there at dinner time? If the latter is the case, then you might get dressed to go out and then tell her that you previously made plans for that night.
What's attractive to the W that has left her H and is currently in an EA, may not look so attractive to the LBH. FWIW, I don't advocate that the LBH hide from his W.
Now, I admit our marriage was not perfect, and I certainly was not perfect. But now she says the last 13 years of being together were hell for her because I was too controlling and selfish. I was not aware she felt this way, and I told her that these are things we can work on, if only we both commit to working on them.
Does she mean you are too controlling and selfish with just
her? Would you be willing to work on "too controlling and selfish"
without her commitment? I mean, just do it b/c it would be a more attractive version of you?
My question is: How do I proceed with this situation?
First step, IMHO, is to become informed. You start by reading the links on Cadet's post. This will arm you with effective DBing methods. Next, start going out and getting a life that does not include your W. Start filling in the calendar dates with plans. Learn to be a bit more private when interacting with your W, and not give away your information. The point is to create a more interesting, even mysterious man. Don't try to impress her, and don't pursue. Don't discuss with her anything we tell you, unless we specifically suggest saying certain things.
Should I do the LRT? Or just the regular non-LRT stuff in the book The Divorce Remedy?
Well, whenever a spouse has dropped the bomb, moved out, and is in some type of an affair........I think the LRT is in order. However, I'm not sure you are currently ready to proceed with the LRT. Call it female intuition, or b.s. I feel you really want to find a softer approach.
Let me ask you a question. If you discover that her EA has turned PA, will that be a deal breaker for you?
Hi sandi. Thanks for your response. To answer your questions:
I’m not inviting her over for dinner. She just shows up to eat dinner whenever she pleases. It’s her house too, although right now she’s living in a hotel. So I cannot really just lock her out of the house. She has her own key. And yes, she also comes by the house to do laundry and to play with the dogs. And I promise I won’t hide from her!
I’m assuming she was saying that I was too controlling and selfish in our relationship. I have copped to it though, and I can see how she would think I was selfish and controlling. So that is certainly I’m working on, and I believe this was a “wake up” call for me in that respect.
You say that the point is to “create a more interesting, even mysterious man.” I totally get that, but sometimes I feel like I should take a “softer approach” as you call it, and I try to be there for her and be happy and friendly so that she associates good feelings with me. I know this is not what your rules advocate, but it’s how I’m wired, I guess.
If I discover that her EA has turned into a PA, that would likely be a dealbreaker for me. The EA partner lives 1000 miles away, so it’s unlikely to turn into a PA anytime soon.
If I discover that her EA has turned into a PA, that would likely be a dealbreaker for me. The EA partner lives 1000 miles away, so it’s unlikely to turn into a PA anytime soon.
Hi Dbx80, she's in a hotel room even though she doesn't mind seeing you nearly everyday, she says it's okay for you to date (which implies the same for her), and 1000 miles is only a weekend flight away. You know your wife, but to an outsider, your situation sounds perilously close to a PA.
I hope it doesn't come to that, of course. She did say dating's okay "as long as it's not physical", which implies she realizes getting physical crosses a significant line in the sand.
Hi Dbx80, she's in a hotel room even though she doesn't mind seeing you nearly everyday, she says it's okay for you to date (which implies the same for her), and 1000 miles is only a weekend flight away. You know your wife, but to an outsider, your situation sounds perilously close to a PA.
I hope it doesn't come to that, of course. She did say dating's okay "as long as it's not physical", which implies she realizes getting physical crosses a significant line in the sand.
Hi CWarrior. Yes, she did specify that physical or sexual activities with others would be out of the question during our "break". So that does make me think that she's not really *that* close to turning her EA into a PA. But who knows. She may be saying that to just prevent me from moving on while she does whatever she wants. I don't believe that's the case, but I suppose that's a possibility.
Also, in yesterday's couple's counseling session, the counselor asked her if she was still texting the OM. She responded saying, "A little." The counselor asked if she had any plans to meet up with the OM. She said, "No, nothing like that." Then she said something like, "I know I would have to end the relationship with the OM entirely in order to give our marriage another try. However, I also don't want to feel *forced* to give up my relationship with the OM. I want to be able to reach that conclusion on my own. That's why I'm asking for space and time--so I can think about my life and what I want to do."
I'm paraphrasing, but that was the gist of it.
Oh, and after our session, when we were in the elevator alone, she reached into my button-down shirt in between two buttons and felt my bare chest, and then said, "You're not wearing an undershirt." I was very surprised, but I know it probably doesn't mean much.
She wants to cake eat. It doesnt mean anything other than she wants you as a solid plan B. Don't be plan B. Its you are nothing. You deserve someone fully committed to you. Know your value. Show your WW that you know your value.
Thanks everyone for your responses.
I do wonder though: everyone on here seems so sure of themselves about what I should be doing. How many of you have actually reconciled with your spouses, and are now happily married?
We don't have any clear data, there is literally no clear data out there.
Is your pursuit plan working? Do you want to hear the experience of everyone here? Can you listen to advice and apply it to your situation? Are you reading other situations?
These situations have played out millions of times with predictable thoughts, feelings, and actions on both sides. You can absorb that information or not.
I’m not inviting her over for dinner. She just shows up to eat dinner whenever she pleases. It’s her house too, although right now she’s living in a hotel. So I cannot really just lock her out of the house. She has her own key. And yes, she also comes by the house to do laundry and to play with the dogs. And I promise I won’t hide from her! wink
Look up legal separation in your state. You possibly can legally keep her out of the house. Have you consulted an attorney yet?
This whole quote is troubling. You're just minimizing all her crap and while putting out the batsignal that you want her back. Why does she get access to the parts of the marriage she wants when she is having an affair and moved out? You promising not to hide from her just solidifies in my mind how you are going to try to be there to see her instead of going your own way.
This OM could have flown in already and you wouldn't be any wiser to it. My buddy takes flights to stay with hookups and hang out - it happens.
the counselor asked her if she was still texting the OM. She responded saying, "A little." The counselor asked if she had any plans to meet up with the OM. She said, "No, nothing like that."
Riiiigggghhhhhttttt. You should totally believe her....
What is the point of MC when she wants two men in her life? You are showing her that you are OK with her having two men in her life.
My head is about to explode. Man I have been where you are, and you are losing respect by the minute. You will regret that forever!
How many other forums/boards are you reading?
I’m not inviting her over for dinner. She just shows up to eat dinner whenever she pleases. It’s her house too, although right now she’s living in a hotel. So I cannot really just lock her out of the house. She has her own key.
Okay, so who buys the groceries, laundry detergent, etc.?
Do you cook the meal or buy carry-out?
Does she help clean up the kitchen?
I’m assuming she was saying that I was too controlling and selfish in our relationship. I have copped to it though, and I can see how she would think I was selfish and controlling. So that is certainly I’m working on, and I believe this was a “wake up” call for me in that respect.
In what ways were you controlling and selfish? How do you plan to work on it?
I think most LBH's see the bomb drop as if it is a wake up to go into action and fix things. He's ready to jump into working on the MR with his W. The problem lies with her. She is not trying to wake him up to fix the problems. She's announcing that she's done with him & the MR. Like most, she feels she has to give some type of an excuse or find justification for ending the M. So, she falls back on old complaints or makes up new ones. Now a lot of LBH's want to put on the Super Husband cape and show his W all the 180's he's made, but she doesn't care. She's fired him from his position as husband, so it's too little and too late.
Some LBH's believe after the bomb drop is the time to
prove just how much he loves her. In the past, she would have welcomed his efforts, but after she drops the bomb, she will not receive it anywhere close to the spirit in which it was given. His efforts tell her that he is so attached to her that she has to do a couple of things: 1) treat him much worse, so he will finally accept the M is over, or 2) throw him a few crumbs and keep him on the back burner (Plan B) just in case OM (Plan A) doesn't work out like she'd hoped. She does this by keeping the H confused......like telling him how she wants them to always be each other's best friend, yada, yada, yada.
Here's the plain harsh truth when the W has opened the M to a third party. The LBH cannot "nice" her back. He cannot "talk" her back. So where does that leave you if you can't nice her or talk her back? I suggest that the LBH attracts her. Before he can start showing her what a great H he could be....given another chance......he needs to put his focus on himself and how to become an attractive male. And, these first few posts from the community have tried to gently turn you in that direction.
You and your W are not running on the same track, and if your focus is entirely on her, you will derail. Instead of pursuing her, it's time to take care of yourself. Here's the thing that you may not know. I seriously doubt that she has even imagined you moving forward and enjoying life.....
without her. I bet she has never considered that she might be the one who got dumped, in the end. What about you? I hope you won't see yourself as powerless. Legally there may be things you can't do, but checking with a lawyer might put your mind to rest, just knowing where you stand. BTW, who is financing her hotel expenses?
There has been a lot of social talk about empowering women. Well, maybe I'm trying to empower LBH's.
The LBH has got to take back his inner power. During this time that his W wants her space......his job is to find male self. He needs to exercise his independent self. He doesn't have to answer to anybody, and he doesn't have to check with anyone to see "if it's okay" for him to do whatever he wants. Listen, this period may not last that long, so he needs to enjoy his own space while he can. He should work to improve, polish, or reinvent himself as a
man. If he will work on becoming the man he needs to be, then he will have whipped a big part of being the right H. He should enjoy doing things he has not done in a long time.
I can't remember if you are going to a gym to work out, but these other guys will tell you it is
very important in dealing with stress, plus it does wonders for the self esteem. So, work on your physical appearance. The outside is actually the easiest part. It's the hangups that snag us. If you are codependent or whatever your personal issues may be, work on those. Attending MC or couples classes is not going to help either of you while she's in an affair. I suggest you end the couple counseling and consider individual counseling for yourself. Your W can do whatever she wants about seeing a counselor. The point is that you are going to do whatever is necessary to help yourself come through this period in your life as more than just a survivor. You will come through it as a better man! You will be more physically fit, mentally/emotionally stronger, have a wider range of activities and interests, an increased number of friends, etc. If you will dig real deep, you will know where you are lacking. Your job is to work on you. Leave her to work on her. Don't try to fix her, b/c you can't. Don't try to fix the MR! You can't fix it until she ends the affair and is committed to doing whatever it takes to save the M. That's something she's got to work out.
BTW, don't tell your W how you are going to work on yourself. Tell her
nothing. I get so frustrated at LBH's who think telling his W he's going to do work on himself will make a fig's difference to her.
She doesn't care! If you really want to become more attractive, then tell her nothing about your personal life. When she fired you, she removed the right to know what you do on your personal time. Know what I mean?
While going through this separation, try to train yourself to interact with her the way you would interact with a cashier at the store. During the transaction, you smile, speak, maybe refer to the weather or something. If the cashier is talkative, you listen politely, maybe nod your head or laugh at something said. However, you don't ask the cashier personal questions. You don't poke around for deeper conversation, b/c you have things to do and places to go. You gracefully end the transaction and go on your way. This is an example of how to interact with your W. You don't have to give the silent treatment or the cold shoulder. You don't act as if you are mad. But neither should you engage in relationship discussions with her. If she talks about the sitch, your part is to listen. If you can validate her feelings, then do it. Otherwise, don't contribute your opinions. It's a hard job for some us!
Some people prefer the example of the neighbor. I usually call it the "nosy" neighbor, b/c once you start getting a life, your W is going to get extremely nosy. You don't share intimate details of your life. You mainly just listen to the neighbor talk. If you can validate a few times, that's great. But here's the thing with the nosy neighbor, you don't pull up a lawn chair and prepare to visit half the day. You want to be cordial, but you have things to do.......so you end the friendly chat and move on.
Same technique when she calls you on the phone. You always have things to do and places to go. You are an attractive guy who is being put out on the open market.........and who is not going to sit home and cry in his beer. The sooner you start seriously GAL, the sooner she's going to realize she's not the only one who will be set free if there is a divorce. Am I suggesting you start dating? No, but neither should you try to reassure her that she's the only woman for you, etc., etc. I'm telling you, when you pull away..........it's going to draw her in. It's like a couple's dance. When you step back, where does she go?
This is pure gold, Sandi! Thank you!
Yes, great Sandi! Definitely have some things to try from this.
Yes, she did specify that physical or sexual activities with others would be out of the question during our "break". So that does make me think that she's not really *that* close to turning her EA into a PA. But who knows. She may be saying that to just prevent me from moving on while she does whatever she wants. I don't believe that's the case, but I suppose that's a possibility.
Dbx, I wouldn’t trust her, mine said the same thing. Just before moving out my WW said that we should be free to date as long as it’s not taken too far (i.e. sleeping with others). What did she do? Moved out and went full blown GGW with multiple PAs.
Also, in yesterday's couple's counseling session, the counselor asked her if she was still texting the OM. She responded saying, "A little." The counselor asked if she had any plans to meet up with the OM. She said, "No, nothing like that." Then she said something like, "I know I would have to end the relationship with the OM entirely in order to give our marriage another try. However, I also don't want to feel *forced* to give up my relationship with the OM. I want to be able to reach that conclusion on my own. That's why I'm asking for space and time--so I can think about my life and what I want to do."
Around Valentine’s Day after I discovered that my WW had continued to meet her OM, I expressed to her how hurt I was and asked what she would want in a settlement. The next day she told me she deleted everything related to the OM from her phone and that it was over with him. Less than 3 weeks later it was back on. She said she resumed it out of principle. Any contact whatsoever with her OM or love interests resets the clock and she won’t be able to see you in a positive light, IMO.
I would just caution you to be highly skeptical of anything she says or does right now. They can launch very quickly into a world of darkness that you could never have imagined.
I know what it’s like to be Plan B (or more like C, D, or E for that matter). Don’t be like me. Listen to the vets here, they know what they’re talking about. I am a perfect example that nicing her back doesn’t work.
Hi Sandi. Thanks again for your response. Here are my responses:
How many other forums/boards are you reading?
I'm just reading this forum.
Okay, so who buys the groceries, laundry detergent, etc.?
Do you cook the meal or buy carry-out?
Does she help clean up the kitchen?
I buy the groceries and the laundry detergent. She cooks when she's here, and I cook when she's not. And yes, she cleans up the kitchen when she's here.
In what ways were you controlling and selfish? How do you plan to work on it?
She claims that she was engaging in so much conflict-avoidance with me, that she wouldn't even want to state her opinion, or tell me what she wanted or needed, for fear of starting an argument or getting a snide remark from me. And I can see where she's coming from. I'm no stranger to conflict, and I can have a very aggressive, sarcastic, and perhaps judgmental personality. So now through individual counseling, I'm recognizing these behaviors in me so that I can stop them from becoming an issue for others (including my spouse). She claims that for most of the marriage, it was always about what I wanted and what I could tolerate, and it was never about what she wanted. Although it's a bit of an exaggeration to say that it was "always" like that, I can recognize that my behavior was an issue in the relationship.
I think most LBH's see the bomb drop as if it is a wake up to go into action and fix things. He's ready to jump into working on the MR with his W. The problem lies with her. She is not trying to wake him up to fix the problems. She's announcing that she's done with him & the MR. Like most, she feels she has to give some type of an excuse or find justification for ending the M. So, she falls back on old complaints or makes up new ones. Now a lot of LBH's want to put on the Super Husband cape and show his W all the 180's he's made, but she doesn't care. She's fired him from his position as husband, so it's too little and too late.
This kind of strikes me as a defeatist attitude. You're saying she's done with me, that she doesn't care about me, and that anything I do is "too little, too late." So should I just throw in the towel and file for divorce??
Also, her excuses and justifications actually ring true to me! So it's not like she's making it up. Perhaps she's exaggerating a little, but the gist of her complaints are generally valid in my eyes.
Some LBH's believe after the bomb drop is the time to prove just how much he loves her. In the past, she would have welcomed his efforts, but after she drops the bomb, she will not receive it anywhere close to the spirit in which it was given. His efforts tell her that he is so attached to her that she has to do a couple of things: 1) treat him much worse, so he will finally accept the M is over, or 2) throw him a few crumbs and keep him on the back burner (Plan B) just in case OM (Plan A) doesn't work out like she'd hoped. She does this by keeping the H confused......like telling him how she wants them to always be each other's best friend, yada, yada, yada.
Yes, she has mentioned that she would like to remain friends. Of course, that's an impossibility for me. I could not be her friend if she's committed to another man.
Here's the plain harsh truth when the W has opened the M to a third party. The LBH cannot "nice" her back. He cannot "talk" her back. So where does that leave you if you can't nice her or talk her back? I suggest that the LBH attracts her. Before he can start showing her what a great H he could be....given another chance......he needs to put his focus on himself and how to become an attractive male. And, these first few posts from the community have tried to gently turn you in that direction.
I understand what you're saying about not "nicing" her back. However, I would have thought that being nice would be my 180 (since I was such a controlling, selfish a-hole before)! Now do you see why I'm confused??
You and your W are not running on the same track, and if your focus is entirely on her, you will derail. Instead of pursuing her, it's time to take care of yourself. Here's the thing that you may not know. I seriously doubt that she has even imagined you moving forward and enjoying life.....without her. I bet she has never considered that she might be the one who got dumped, in the end. What about you? I hope you won't see yourself as powerless. Legally there may be things you can't do, but checking with a lawyer might put your mind to rest, just knowing where you stand. BTW, who is financing her hotel expenses?
She is paying for her own hotel expenses. We both have well-paying jobs, and fortunately expenses are not an issue in this situation.
There has been a lot of social talk about empowering women. Well, maybe I'm trying to empower LBH's.
The LBH has got to take back his inner power. During this time that his W wants her space......his job is to find male self. He needs to exercise his independent self. He doesn't have to answer to anybody, and he doesn't have to check with anyone to see "if it's okay" for him to do whatever he wants. Listen, this period may not last that long, so he needs to enjoy his own space while he can. He should work to improve, polish, or reinvent himself as a
man. If he will work on becoming the man he needs to be, then he will have whipped a big part of being the right H. He should enjoy doing things he has not done in a long time.
Yes, I am starting to do a lot of things that I enjoy for myself and that I haven't done in a long time.
I can't remember if you are going to a gym to work out, but these other guys will tell you it is very important in dealing with stress, plus it does wonders for the self esteem. So, work on your physical appearance. The outside is actually the easiest part. It's the hangups that snag us. If you are codependent or whatever your personal issues may be, work on those. Attending MC or couples classes is not going to help either of you while she's in an affair. I suggest you end the couple counseling and consider individual counseling for yourself. Your W can do whatever she wants about seeing a counselor. The point is that you are going to do whatever is necessary to help yourself come through this period in your life as more than just a survivor. You will come through it as a better man! You will be more physically fit, mentally/emotionally stronger, have a wider range of activities and interests, an increased number of friends, etc. If you will dig real deep, you will know where you are lacking. Your job is to work on you. Leave her to work on her. Don't try to fix her, b/c you can't. Don't try to fix the MR! You can't fix it until she ends the affair and is committed to doing whatever it takes to save the M. That's something she's got to work out.
I am going to individual counseling, and we both go to couple's counseling together. You're saying we should stop going to couple's counseling, but I always liked going because she tends to open up and lets me know what she thinks our relationship needs in order to get back on track (for example, addressing the controlling and selfish behavior on my part). I understand that we cannot fix the marriage relationship until she ends the affair, but I thought it was still good to go to the couple's counseling if only to get her to share her thoughts and feelings about what went wrong and what can be improved.
BTW, don't tell your W how you are going to work on yourself. Tell her nothing. I get so frustrated at LBH's who think telling his W he's going to do work on himself will make a fig's difference to her. She doesn't care! If you really want to become more attractive, then tell her nothing about your personal life. When she fired you, she removed the right to know what you do on your personal time. Know what I mean?
So what do I say when she asks? For example, she may say "Where did you eat lunch today?" Would it not be appropriate to say "I went to the diner down the street"? Or what if she asks, "Who did you go with?" If I say, "A friend," she would just respond with, "Which friend?" I would feel awkward just ignoring her question or being coy about the answer.
While going through this separation, try to train yourself to interact with her the way you would interact with a cashier at the store. During the transaction, you smile, speak, maybe refer to the weather or something. If the cashier is talkative, you listen politely, maybe nod your head or laugh at something said. However, you don't ask the cashier personal questions. You don't poke around for deeper conversation, b/c you have things to do and places to go. You gracefully end the transaction and go on your way. This is an example of how to interact with your W. You don't have to give the silent treatment or the cold shoulder. You don't act as if you are mad. But neither should you engage in relationship discussions with her. If she talks about the sitch, your part is to listen. If you can validate her feelings, then do it. Otherwise, don't contribute your opinions. It's a hard job for some us!
I totally get what you're saying, but sometimes we're eating dinner together or in the same room, and I cannot just ignore her questions or just get up and leave every time she asks me something personal. That would be weird, I feel like.
Some people prefer the example of the neighbor. I usually call it the "nosy" neighbor, b/c once you start getting a life, your W is going to get extremely nosy. You don't share intimate details of your life. You mainly just listen to the neighbor talk. If you can validate a few times, that's great. But here's the thing with the nosy neighbor, you don't pull up a lawn chair and prepare to visit half the day. You want to be cordial, but you have things to do.......so you end the friendly chat and move on.
I guess I have a problem ending the chat and "moving on", because she's very nosy and won't let it go until I answer her questions. For example, a week or so ago, I tried to avoid sharing too much about what I did that day, and she was hounding me hours later about the same topic. So unless I share, she will just keep asking.
Same technique when she calls you on the phone. You always have things to do and places to go. You are an attractive guy who is being put out on the open market.........and who is not going to sit home and cry in his beer. The sooner you start seriously GAL, the sooner she's going to realize she's not the only one who will be set free if there is a divorce. Am I suggesting you start dating? No, but neither should you try to reassure her that she's the only woman for you, etc., etc. I'm telling you, when you pull away..........it's going to draw her in. It's like a couple's dance. When you step back, where does she go?
I guess my counterpoint is that by "pulling away" from her, it might just be "more of the same". Like I said above, my 180 was to be more considerate of her wants and needs, since I was such a controlling and selfish person during the relationship. I was not making her a priority during our marriage, and I feel that if I "pull away" as you suggest, that would just validate her stated reasons for leaving the marriage. Does that make sense?
She'll look for reasons to justify leaving the marriage no matter what you do.
By mysterious. If she asks what you're doing say you're out with friends or grabbing a bite to eat. If she presses you can remind her that she fired you as a husband. You're busy and you can still be nice (as Sandi said regarding the cashier at the store).
Let her guess and wonder what you're up to.
Your'e not pulling away, you're getting a life and doing things you want to do.
You are not pulling away. You are showing yourself that you love, respect and value yourself. Which she will see. She already pulled away. There is nothing for you to pull away from. So focus on yourself. You will thank yourself for it later.
Quick update:
Last night, she was here for dinner, and then started caressing my foot with her foot during the dinner. Thought it was strange, but just let it go. Later, she started basically groping me and then started kissing me. We then had sex (which she initiated). She did say “You know this doesn’t mean we’re back together. We’re just enjoying ourselves.”
Today, she was generally friendly and invited me to lunch tomorrow.
What does this all mean??
Thanks, gentlemen, for your encouraging words.
I buy the groceries and the laundry detergent. She cooks when she's here, and I cook when she's not. And yes, she cleans up the kitchen when she's here.
So if she shows up, everyone goes into the "normal" zone? Except it's not normal. It's as if you're playing happy family...... on her terms, of course. If she didn't have dinner there, she would have to eat out or eat something in her hotel room, right?
Originally Posted by sandi2
In what ways were you controlling and selfish? How do you plan to work on it?
She claims that she was engaging in so much conflict-avoidance with me, that she wouldn't even want to state her opinion, or tell me what she wanted or needed, for fear of starting an argument or getting a snide remark from me. And I can see where she's coming from. I'm no stranger to conflict, and I can have a very aggressive, sarcastic, and perhaps judgmental personality. So now through individual counseling, I'm recognizing these behaviors in me so that I can stop them from becoming an issue for others (including my spouse). She claims that for most of the marriage, it was always about what I wanted and what I could tolerate, and it was never about what she wanted. Although it's a bit of an exaggeration to say that it was "always" like that, I can recognize that my behavior was an issue in the relationship.
I couldn't help but laugh a little bit when noticing how you started two sentences with, "She claims".
I was surprised to see you so agreeable. Hopefully, your IC is giving you methods/techniques you can put into practice every day. You know, the people we are around during our childhood has a tremendous affect on our personalities and in how we interact with people. I've seen people who were very close to me, have similar traits you've described. My father was one, and I saw him overcome these negative patterns and grow into the most amazing man. I saw him as an amazing, b/c I knew what he was born into and some of what he had to overcome. I think it takes courage to make these changes, and a strong determination to learn and demonstrate better behavior.
Let me just caution you of something, as you grow through this experience (and I may have said this previously). LBH's struggle with staying balanced. They have a problem looking at what the W complained about and implementing new behavior. They go from one end of the spectrum to the polar end. So, don't get too frustrated if you feel you can't get anything right without someone on the board pointing it out. We'll be here trying to help you stay balanced.
Originally Posted by sandi2
Now a lot of LBH's want to put on the Super Husband cape and show his W all the 180's he's made, but she doesn't care. She's fired him from his position as husband, so it's too little and too late.
This kind of strikes me as a defeatist attitude. You're saying she's done with me, that she doesn't care about me, and that anything I do is "too little, too late." So should I just throw in the towel and file for divorce??
Throw in the towel? I wanted to show you how the bomb drop event is seen differently by the two spouses. She was making an announcement that the M is over, while he sees it as a wake up call. I'm trying to tell you just a little bit about her mindset, and warn you not to make the same mistakes others have made. I think Michele writes in her DR book how in most cases the W will try to tell her H she's not happy, but he doesn't hear her (partly b/c he doesn't recognize her language). However, when she drops the bomb, he is suddenly awake and ready to work. When he reads a book or gets advice on the forum, he can hardly wait to start all these 180's, correcting her complaints, etc. And like I said, the LBH has a tendency of overdoing or keeping things balanced in his head, and in his actions. Well, when he doesn't see his W respond quite like he thought she would, considering he is working his butt off to fix her complaints, his high hopes are deflated. That's b/c he doesn't quite understand the real problem, and he sure doesn't understand her. Why isn't she happy after he turns into a model of H perfection? That's why I'm here trying to tell the LBH that everything has changed at the point & time of the bomb drop. She'll likely drag up those old complaints for excuses to get a D (and some can be pretty flimsy). However, it's her mindset that is real problem.
By the time the LBH comes to the DB board, his W has lost respect, admiration, and loving feelings for him. Furthermore, she's probably rebelling against him and against their MR. She is not the same sweet girl he married. That doesn't mean the M can't be saved! I'm simply giving you a heads up about her. Most newcomer H's spend their time & energy trying to persuade the W to call off the D. The old persuasion talks no longer work, b/c she's no longer the same girl. She's not going to be rational or listen to logic, b/c she is making decisions based on her emotions. Everything revolves around her emotions. It's ironic that she blamed you of being selfish, b/c now you are going to see how everything has shifted and it's all about
her. Everything I've said is true, but I'm not suggesting that you throw in the towel and file for D. I am suggesting that you take a different approach, than trying to persuade your W into staying......by
talking about the MR.
Also, her excuses and justifications actually ring true to me! So it's not like she's making it up. Perhaps she's exaggerating a little, but the gist of her complaints are generally valid in my eyes.
Not all of them make up excuses and/or self justifications, but they
can if they feel it's necessary in getting the D. If she would be justified in divorcing you, then just tell us. I'm not talking about some of the things she complained about ringing true.........I'm asking you if you abused your W (mentally, physically, emotionally). Have you betrayed & deceived her? You need to say if you have. If not, then we need to move along so that you can get pertinent information in how to turn things around and, hopefully, save your M.
Yes, she has mentioned that she would like to remain friends. Of course, that's an impossibility for me. I could not be her friend if she's committed to another man.
What about if she was in an affair with another man?
I understand what you're saying about not "nicing" her back. However, I would have thought that being nice would be my 180 (since I was such a controlling, selfish a-hole before)! Now do you see why I'm confused??
Yes, I see what you are saying, but are you familiar with NGS? (The term/title is a little misleading.) First, to answer your question, you
don't 180 everything. We can return to this particular subject, once you answer my question about abuse. You certainly didn't use flattering words to described yourself. Anyway, you may see several references about Nice Guy Syndrome (NGS) across some threads. If you are not familiar with the term, google it or find the book. Whether you were the typical passive nice guy or if you were horrible in the MR, you still can't get her back by becoming Mr. Nice Guy. It just doesn't work. That doesn't mean you can't change bad behavior to good behavior.
It's not to say you can't behave like a decent human being, and even be polite. You can even be cordial, if you don't lose your head and overkill.
Search youtube for nice guy syndrome, and I think you can get a pretty good idea what a nice guy means around here. Then we can return to the subject, if needed.
Originally Posted by sandi2
BTW, don't tell your W how you are going to work on yourself. Tell her nothing. I get so frustrated at LBH's who think telling his W he's going to do work on himself will make a fig's difference to her. She doesn't care! If you really want to become more attractive, then tell her nothing about your personal life. When she fired you, she removed the right to know what you do on your personal time. Know what I mean?
So what do I say when she asks? For example, she may say "Where did you eat lunch today?" Would it not be appropriate to say "I went to the diner down the street"? Or what if she asks, "Who did you go with?" If I say, "A friend," she would just respond with, "Which friend?" I would feel awkward just ignoring her question or being coy about the answer.
You completely missed my point. I was talking about how some LBH's think it will make a difference (in her feelings) if he would tell her that he is working on himself. I said don't tell her that you are
working on yourself. I didn't say anything about all those other things. If she should come out and ask if you've been working out or going to the gym......then just simply say yes. Don't lie to her about anything.
I totally get what you're saying, but sometimes we're eating dinner together or in the same room, and I cannot just ignore her questions or just get up and leave every time she asks me something personal. That would be weird, I feel like.
Okay..........well, I'm going to end here and call it a night. Before I go, I want to suggest that you go back and read all the posts in this entire thread and notice how you respond by exaggerating or twisting what has been previously posted to you. Maybe you enjoy counterpointing a little too much?
Quick update:
Last night, she was here for dinner, and then started caressing my foot with her foot during the dinner. Thought it was strange, but just let it go. Later, she started basically groping me and then started kissing me. We then had sex (which she initiated). She did say “You know this doesn’t mean we’re back together. We’re just enjoying ourselves.”
Today, she was generally friendly and invited me to lunch tomorrow.
What does this all mean??
It means she needs to make sure you still want her, and she wants to see if she still has power over you.
Decline lunch and organize your sock drawer instead.
D,
Enjoy the moment for what it was and be sure not to turn into Mr. Melty.
Thanks for the invite but I’ve got plans.
So I think she likes to have dinner with me, and it’s one of her “cake-eating” habits. What if I were to tell her that as a new rule during our “break”, we cannot have dinner together unless she has stopped communicating with the OM for X number of days (let’s just say, 3 days). Do you think this “boundary” would be beneficial or advisable? That way, the onus is on her to modify her behavior instead of on me (because it’s been very hard for me to deny her).
And if she were to agree to it, I think she would be honest in enforcing it. I think the guilt would eat her up otherwise.
D,
What are the consequences if you set the boundary and she breaks it?
Why is it hard for you to deny a woman that is seeking out intimacy with another man?
Hi Sandi. To answer your questions:
1. Yes, if she didn’t have dinner here, she would have to eat out or eat at her hotel.
2. I have not abused my wife. However, you should know that back when we were first dating 14 years ago, I did cheat on her once with an ex. I thought she was over it, but she has recently reference this in our talks. However, since we’ve been living together for 13 years now, I have never cheated on her or abused her.
3. I would not be able to remain friends with her if she were in a PA with the OM. Right now, it’s just an EA, which I’ve decided is something I could get over if she were to come back.
4. Yes, I’m familiar with NGS. I see some of myself in that (i.e., covert contracts). It’s something I’m working on as well.
5. And yes, sorry for counterpointing so much. It’s part of my line of work, and so it’s hard to stop when I’m not at work.
D,
What are the consequences if you set the boundary and she breaks it?
Why is it hard for you to deny a woman that is seeking out intimacy with another man?
I supposed if she breaks the boundary, I would tell her no more dinners together until she completely stops all communication with the OM.
And it’s hard to deny her because she’s the love of my life. What can I say?
Also, sometimes I feel like instead of “cake-eating”, she may be genuinely trying to test the waters with me to see if our relationship is worth another shot. I know you say it’s “cake-eating”, but sometimes I’m not so sure. At least, this is what goes through my mind.
Hi Dbx80,
And if she were to agree to it, I think she would be honest in enforcing it. I think the guilt would eat her up otherwise.
I see you trust her. Based on your story, isn't some skepticism warranted? She began the EA before telling you "ILYBINILWY" and "Maybe Divorce". You say it was secret, involved flirty texts, and the most dangerous thing of all--she says he really listens to her. By now, you probably realize listening is relationship glue! If there was any doubt there was intention behind it, note she said she didn't mind if you dated.
She's maybe not the Devil in Disguise, but also maybe not the Avatar of Honesty?
I'm skeptical of allowing someone who's misled you to self-policy your boundaries for you. I leave the discussion of "Dinner" or "Not Dinner" to others. I have no personal experience with affairs.
Well DB you certainly aren’t the first person to think their situation is different and go against DB principles. One of the most important things I learned from my experience is that as a man you need to learn to control your actions and emotions. Right now you are being manipulated by your w and the longer you allow that to happen the longer you will continue to suffer.
Make plans when she wants to come for dinner or go out with you for dinner.
Or just start saying "no thanks, I don't want to have dinner with you while you're with OM".
You're not so sure because you want to believe she's having second thoughts. IF she wanted to work on the marriage you would know.
Listen man, my W said all sorts of positive things that I took to heart and I believed she was reconsidering. However, there still wasn't any physical affection from her and here we are now going through a separation agreement with our lawyers. When I look back, she really didn't give me any indication that she was interested in a R with me.
Don't be her puppy dog.
I supposed if she breaks the boundary, I would tell her no more dinners together until she completely stops all communication with the OM.
Don't negotiate with a WAS. ^^^THIS should be your statement to her. Just tell her no more dinners, no texting, no phone calls, no happy little conversations, because you will NOT be involved in a relationship any longer with a cheater. PERIOD. You're trying to be nice, but you can't "nice" her back.
And it’s hard to deny her because she’s the love of my life. What can I say?
Like so many other LBS's that find themselves here, you are tricking yourself into thinking she is some kind of soulmate, the only person that can ever make you happy. It's simply not true. It's a big world out there full of amazing women. Your W may have been great for you at some point but not anymore. Who wants to be married to a lying cheater. The sooner you accept that your old W is gone, the sooner you can go about the business of really detaching. And when you well and truly detach, THEN she may learn what she's losing and regret her actions.
Also, sometimes I feel like instead of “cake-eating”, she may be genuinely trying to test the waters with me to see if our relationship is worth another shot. I know you say it’s “cake-eating”, but sometimes I’m not so sure. At least, this is what goes through my mind.
She's not ever going to learn to miss you if you are around all the time and doing stuff with her. Tough love is the only approach that works with cheaters, but it is the approach that 99% of LBS's don't have the intestinal fortitude to see through.
DBX,
the whole reason she comes over for dinner is b/c it beats take out and sitting in a hotel. I said that last week. It's the most obvious.
What if I were to tell her that as a new rule during our “break”, we cannot have dinner together unless she has stopped communicating with the OM for X number of days (let’s just say, 3 days)
Totally unenforceable. She's going to lie to you and not provide any way to prove what she is saying is true. Don't do it.
Right now, it’s just an EA
Believe nothing you hear!!! You don't know this!!!
Its not just an EA. Sorry but don't try and convince yourself of this. She is cake eating. Have some respect for yourself. Love yourself and understand that you deserve so much better.
Like said above, there are many many many fabulous women on this planet of which many would love to trest you like a king. I met one after I dropped the rope and she is a wonderful woman who shows me she wants me. I have honestly never felt so desired in my entire life. You deserve the same.
Thanks AnotherStander.
So are you saying I should literally tell her "no more dinners, no texting, no phone calls, no happy little conversations, because I will NOT be involved in a relationship any longer with a cheater." Am I supposed to explicitly say this to her, in no uncertain terms?
If so, won't she just run straight to the OM?
When I told her to stop talking to the OM before, she said it was important for her to make that decision herself (instead of being pressured into it).
DB,
Yes exactly! The difference is you are not telling her what to do, you are telling her what YOU won’t tolerate. Do you see the difference? It shows strength. She’ll be pissed but she will respect you. Respect = attraction.
How will that make her run to OM? She’s already with him.
DB,
Yes exactly! The difference is you are not telling her what to do, you are telling her what YOU won’t tolerate. Do you see the difference? It shows strength. She’ll be pissed but she will respect you. Respect = attraction.
How will that make her run to OM? She’s already with him.
Thanks LH19.
I meant to say, won't she just end up spending more and more time with OM (since she can't spend that time with me anymore), and therefore become much closer to him?
Hi Dbx80, I won't tell you whether to date your wife while she dates others or NOT date your wife while she dates others. I have no insights there, but I have insights on another matter you raised!
When I told her to stop talking to the OM before, she said it was important for her to make that decision herself (instead of being pressured into it).
Google the difference between a
boundary and an
ultimatum. An ultimatum attempts to control and pressure another person. "You better stop talking to him.. or else I won't have dinner with you!" A boundary only controls you, it limits what you'll accept. "I love you but I won't do an open relationship--I must decline dinner." In either case she may get angry. People usually are the first time you enforce boundaries. If you choose this path it may be worth considering some responses you predict and how you might respond.
I will NOT be involved in a relationship any longer with a cheater.
You could probably set the boundary without calling her names.
I don't think labeling her is essential to your point.
Your situation seems very close to mine right now except I’m the wife. He’s in the spare bedroom, we’re pretending for the kids, he doesn’t want to be married any more but he wants to walk the dogs together every night and have a nice chat. I don’t know whether I should still be making him dinner or doing his d@mn laundry!
What happened in your situation? I’m only 2 weeks in.
You are not in a competition with the OM. Plus if he lives 1,000 miles away he can’t see her that often.
The point is the statement. I love and respect myself too much to share you with another man.
To simplify the boundary:
W I will not live in an open marriage.
Thanks you guys. OK, she has just texted me the following: "Did you want to get dinner tonight with me?"
Can you guys help with the appropriate response? I don't want to mess this up.
Also, please note that we have not had dinner since Monday. I think she's been upset about an argument we had on Sunday about the relationship.
I think she's been upset about an argument we had on Sunday about the relationship.
What did you argue about? Sorry to hear that--sex and an invite to lunch Monday was promising.
"Did you want to get dinner tonight with me?"
"No. I adore you, so this is hard, but I won't do an open relationship." I would only send this message if you are actually up to enforcing this boundary. I deeply regret boundaries I stated then flipped on. It's your call to go boundary / no boundary, but if you set a boundary, be sure you're up to enforcing it.
Sorry just noticed this:
So are you saying I should literally tell her "no more dinners, no texting, no phone calls, no happy little conversations, because I will NOT be involved in a relationship any longer with a cheater." Am I supposed to explicitly say this to her, in no uncertain terms?
I didn't really mean to literally tell her that, I meant that that should be your internal dialog. She's actively engaging in an affair and until it ends you should keep any contact with her to an absolute minimum and whenever she reaches out then you remind yourself "I will NOT be involved in a relationship any longer with a cheater". Now if she does demand to know why you're distancing, you can say something like that but in a more diplomatic manner, such as "you are actively engaging in an affair and I feel I need time and space from you right now to consider my options moving forward." That puts her on notice that you are not waiting around as Plan B, but in a way that's not rude or cold.
If so, won't she just run straight to the OM?
She's already there, you can't run to where you already are. Even when she's around you she's with OM. Your actions need to be driven by a desire to save yourself, not driven by fear of what impact it will have on her.
When I told her to stop talking to the OM before, she said it was important for her to make that decision herself (instead of being pressured into it).
You can't make demands of her, but you can make boundaries. That's the difference between what you did and what I suggested above. When you say "I need time and space while you are engaging in an affair" then you are not telling her to stop the affair, you're telling her that you will not put up with it. You will not be her bestie. When you tell a wayward what to do then what is their response? They rebel against you and do it anyway. Boundaries are about protecting yourself, not making someone else do something.
Thanks you guys. OK, she has just texted me the following: "Did you want to get dinner tonight with me?"
Can you guys help with the appropriate response? I don't want to mess this up.
I wouldn't go. Read TXHubby's sitch, it'll give you an idea of what a miserable failure it is trying to "nice" a wayward back:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=60640&Number=2748478#Post2748478The way you see things right now, you're playing a "pick me!" game with her. You're hoping you can win her favor by showing you're nicer, a better friend and more available than OM. Please have more self-respect than that, you do not deserve a scumbag cheating wife! I really wish you would see her as a scummy cheater because that's what she is. She has the potential to be a great wife again I'm sure, but for now you're dealing with a lot of sleaziness and you're in denial about it. Your attitude should be "I want nothing to do with you until you repent of this waywardness and come back to me with a humble heart and spirit" (again, don't say this to her, this is your internal dialog).
What did you argue about? Sorry to hear that--sex and an invite to lunch Monday was promising.
Basically about everything. I foolishly asked if she had any new thoughts about our situation, or if she had reached any kind of conclusion. She blamed me for everything and it ended in a shouting match. Not my best moment.
"No. I adore you, so this is hard, but I won't do an open relationship." I would only send this message if you are actually up to enforcing this boundary. I deeply regret boundaries I stated then flipped on. It's your call to go boundary / no boundary, but if you set a boundary, be sure you're up to enforcing it.
So one thing I should let you know is that when we agreed to the "break", one of the rules that we both agreed to was that we could date or see others, as long as there was no "physical stuff". I realize now that it was a mistake for me to agree to that back then, since I don't want to be in an open relationship. Given that I'm now backtracking on our initial agreement from 6 weeks ago, should I address that in any way?
Maybe better: "No. I adore you, I still can picture a better us, but I won't do an open relationship."
Given that I'm now backtracking on our initial agreement from 6 weeks ago, should I address that in any way?
Ahh. That makes a slight difference!
"No. I adore you, I still can picture a better us, but I won't do an open relationship anymore."
Ahh. That makes a slight difference!
"No. I adore you, I still can picture a better us, but I won't do an open relationship anymore."
Thanks CWarrior. I can just picture her response to that: "I thought we both agreed to the rules of the break?"
If that's her response, should I say anything?
D,
I am still stuck on the dating without any physical stuff. WTF does that mean?
No I adore yous!
For the first text: I am sorry I already have plans.
As for the original agreement: w I’ve thought about it and this isn’t working for me. I’m not interested in being in an open marriage.
As for the fight on Sunday. What part of no relationship talks do you not understand?
Hi Dbx80,
My reading of your first message is that you caught her in an EA and told her to stop texting the OM. She refused, but gave you the consolation prize that you can date others (a break).
So one thing I should let you know is that when we agreed to the "break", one of the rules that we both agreed to was that we could date or see others, as long as there was no "physical stuff".
To be clear, when did you catch her in an EA vs. agree to a break? Who proposed these terms, and why did you agree to them (potentially expanding her affair to local people)?
I’ve thought about it and this isn’t working for me. I’m not interested in being in an open marriage.
A solid reply.
My reading of your first message is that you caught her in an EA and told her to stop texting the OM. She refused, but gave you the consolation prize that you can date others (a break).
Well first she dropped the bomb on me (“I love you but I’m not in love with you”). Then a couple of days later, I caught her texting the OM. She then agreed to “take a break” in lieu of getting a divorce, with the understanding that we could see others during the break (but that we could not do anything physical or sexual with them).
Who proposed these terms, and why did you agree to them (potentially expanding her affair to local people)?
She proposed the terms. I said I didn’t feel comfortable with those terms, and then she kind of shut down on me and it seemed like she was backing off the idea of a “break” and just going back to the idea of a “divorce.” In order to appease her and avoid her filing for divorce, I agreed to her terms.
So, you felt your cheating partner was done unless you agree to her terms--an open relationship where she dates whomever she likes, and maybe you compare favorably and win her back?
It sounds like a great arrangement for her and a miserable one for you.
Unless, I mean, you've been dating up a storm and enjoying the single life as well!
So, you felt your cheating partner was done unless you agree to her terms--an open relationship where she dates whomever she likes, and maybe you compare favorably and win her back?
It sounds like a great arrangement for her and a miserable one for you.
Unless, I mean, you've been dating up a storm and enjoying the single life as well!
I have not been dating, and yes, I understand now that it was a mistake. I was just too fearful of losing her when I made that decision.
DB,
9 times out of 10 when you fear losing something you will lose it. You can’t appease and nice her back.
Thanks for the response AnotherStander.
You said, "When you tell a wayward what to do then what is their response? They rebel against you and do it anyway." Are we 100% sure she's wayward instead of a MLCer? Is it possible that she's just a walk-away spouse? Does it make a difference?
D,
I am still stuck on the dating without any physical stuff. WTF does that mean?
No I adore yous!
For the first text: I am sorry I already have plans.
As for the original agreement: w I’ve thought about it and this isn’t working for me. I’m not interested in being in an open marriage.
As for the fight on Sunday. What part of no relationship talks do you not understand?
Thanks LH19, that's very helpful.
I suppose that dating without any physical stuff just means no sex.
And yes, I know I screwed up with the relationship talk. I'm still learning, I guess.
Isn’t dating without physical stuff a friendship?
I get it that you’re still learning but you have to try to minimize your mistakes. Do not let your w call all the shots. That will make you look weak. I think you have a chance if you start to show strength.
Isn’t dating without physical stuff a friendship?
Hi LH19,
If dating without physical stuff is just a friendship, then is she NOT involved in an EA? Is it just a friendship, and therefore she's not a wayward?
Dating with (an initial) "physical" limit can be very heated imho. I'll cop to being an OM in that situation before. I tutored her in Spanish--I covered the body parts one by one, making good use of a solitary hot tub.
Whatever the current boundaries actually are, it sounds like this isn't working for you.
In response to her request for a dinner together, what if I say something like, "If you’re still talking to that other guy, I don’t think it’s a good idea." Thoughts?
In response to her request for a dinner together, what if I say something like, "If you’re still talking to that other guy, I don’t think it’s a good idea." Thoughts?
Sounds really weak.
To elaborate, it's very passive compared to the prior suggestions:
You are actively engaging in an affair and I feel I need time and space from you right now to consider my options moving forward.
No. I adore you, I still can picture a better us, but I won't do an open relationship anymore.
I am sorry I already have plans. I’ve thought about it and this isn’t working for me. I’m not interested in being in an open marriage.
DB,
What if she says she's not talking to him? How would you know?
How about, saying yes if you want to go and no if you don't.
If you go, show your W APOAFWL. Put on your best dress and smell good.
If you say no, say, "No, I'm not in a place to go to dinner with you at this time". That's
Infidelity is the giving away of secrets being betrayed. It's not only about sex. If you feel betrayed, then your W committed infidelity. Are you comfortable with her friendship with this OM? If not, then it must stop for you and her to fix y'all M.
Your explanation about their R, sounds like you are trying to convince yourself that what's she's doing is not that bad. If you have to explain away a person's actions then something is wrong.
Joejoe
There's no shame in admitting if you're not ready to make a stand. Maybe you'd rather have 100% of your wife, but you'd accept 25% for now to have dinner company and occasional physical companionship. Own this. The EA was a betrayal, but accepting an open marriage or not is your choice.
D,
I am going to disagree with JJ1. If you go that shows her you are ok sharing her with another man. After being on here almost 5 years now the best stance with a WW is tough love.
IMO at minimum they are sexting each other.
Thanks everyone for your input. Unfortunately, I’m not strong enough right now to follow your advice. I ended up accepting no less than 2 dinner invites from her this weekend, and also sent her a text message earlier today that was “pursuing” in nature (but she didn’t respond, which kind of broke me). I guess I’m just not built for this. I’ve been an emotional wreck since BD 7 weeks ago, and my emotions seem to be in control of my actions right now. I know what I should be doing, but I just cannot bring myself to execute. My emotions take over and then I just cave in to her. I don’t know what’s wrong with me. I’ve never acted this way before, and it’s just the craziest thing. You guys probably think I’m pathetic, but I really don’t know how to fix this. I’m just lost.
Also, I’m pretty sure she’s going through a MLC. Does that change anything?
DB,
Don’t beat yourself up, most newbies have a hard time DBing early on. That’s why the recon rate is so low. Tony Robbins keyed the phrase “Rejection breeds Obsession” and that’s what you are experiencing right now.
As for vets we can only give you the best advice based on 100s if not 1000s of situations we have seen. It’s up to you guys to take it or not. Most don’t and suffer immensely for it.
It’s not surprising she didn’t respond to your text. She doesn’t want to give you false hope. The best thing to do is to pick yourself and dust yourself off and start to DB.
As for MLC, nah it doesn’t change anything.
As LH said, DBing early on is difficult, so don't beat yourself up too much.
The important thing is to keep trying it over and over again. I have seen many situations in this forum where the LBS has been nowhere close to even minor DB but over time they changed and started healing. You will fail but pick yourself up and try again. If you do that, you will look back at yourself in a few months and see how far you have come.
The best thing to do is to pick yourself and dust yourself off and start to DB.
Thanks LH.
Tomorrow we have a couple's counseling session. I used to think that these sessions were good for us because she would tend to open up about what she felt were problems in our marriage, or she would identify behaviors of mine that she felt were not attractive. I could then focus on changing those problem behaviors. However, I'm not so sure anymore about the counseling. Do you think it's worth it to continue the counseling at this point?
I wouldn’t as long as she is still emotionally invested in the OM it’s a waste of time and money. Couples counseling only works when two people are invested in saving/improving the relationship.
Also remember you don’t have to address all the problems she has with you. Only if they are valid behaviors you want to change. If she has a problem with you eating healthy and you like eating healthy, don’t change that behavior to placate her.
I wouldn’t as long as she is still emotionally invested in the OM it’s a waste of time and money. Couples counseling only works when two people are invested in saving/improving the relationship.
Also remember you don’t have to address all the problems she has with you. Only if they are valid behaviors you want to change. If she has a problem with you eating healthy and you like eating healthy, don’t change that behavior to placate her.
Thanks again LH. And yes, I'm only addressing behaviors that I would want to change for myself.
So if you were in my shoes right now, you would
seriously just stop the counseling and stop the dinners and the texts and the emails and the hanging-out, until she ends it with the OM? It seems like a very extreme thing to do, and I guess that's where I get hung up. I'm afraid I'll never see her again if I do that.
Two weeks ago, I didn't contact her for an entire week, and I made sure to give her the space that she was requesting. I didn't text, or email, or call, or anything, but I did accept dinner invites (always initiated by her). At the end of the week, she initiated sex, and I of course complied. I don't know if that tells you anything.
D,
Yes with the knowledge of what I know now and from being divorced for over a year. If you respect yourself and tell her that you will no share her with another and you never see her again what does that tell you? What you fear you attract.
Here’s what it tells me. You showed some balls and didn’t contact her for a week so that peeked her interest. She’s thinking “oh $hit is plan b slipping away?” She initiated sex to make sure you’re back on the hook as plan b and like you said of course you comply and wallaha you’re plan b again.
You get overly excited because you think you’re making progress so you pursue with a text and of course she distances again because she doesn’t want you to get your hopes up. Classic Pursuit and Distance dynamic that is in your homework.
DB this is going to be the hardest thing you have ever gone through in your life.
Thanks for the response AnotherStander.
You said, "When you tell a wayward what to do then what is their response? They rebel against you and do it anyway." Are we 100% sure she's wayward instead of a MLCer? Is it possible that she's just a walk-away spouse? Does it make a difference?
Yes it makes a difference IMO. I'm going to be softer on someone who is hurting so bad they want to leave than someone who is hurting so bad they want to leave and has an affair.
In response to her request for a dinner together, what if I say something like, "If you’re still talking to that other guy, I don’t think it’s a good idea." Thoughts?
Did you ever date a girl who had a boyfriend already? Would you continue on with a girlfriend if she was talking to OM? I hope you see my point.
Relationships are relationships. Marriage is a societal thing that really helps advance the human race beyond our monkey brains. Everyone understands the universal truths in relationships. Don't think about the formal marriage in this regard, but how you view relationships. I think that would be a fine thing to say. It's clear, it's about what you will do. Maybe take the "if" out of the front of the sentence.
Your story sounds familiar to so many here. Are you reading the other situations, looking for similarities, and learning from them?
I'm not sure that should be shunning her, just don't accept all of her invitations. You HAVE to work on your detachment. You have to be nonreactive, confident, strong. Learn how to control your emotions. Be attractive. Being the emotional person right now is not going to attract her back.
My bet is that the OM is a bit of a loser in some obvious ways. What are your good qualities? What are your bad qualities? How can you accentuate the positives about you and stomp out your weaknesses?
LH nailed the sex/plan B thing on the head. It has happened a million times before you. You need a pickup artist to help you in regards to attraction. That text was ill advised.
Hi guys. A lot has happened since the last time I posted, so here’s an update:
As you may recall, my W was taking time and space (by living in a hotel) to consider whether to proceed with divorce, or to give our marriage a second chance, all the while having an EA with a guy who lives 1000 miles away, and refusing to stop contacting him. Last week, she told me that she had made a decision, and that she wanted to get a divorce. Shortly thereafter, I decided to contact the OM myself to tell him to stop communicating with her, as he was helping to destroy a marriage (and I figured, what have I got to lose at this point). The OM told my wife I had contacted him, and my wife was not happy about that, to say the least. However, she did say that the OM was going to adhere to my request to stop talking with her (allegedly). Since then (this all happened last Tuesday), I have not spoken to or seen my wife. She has basically gone dark on me.
Thoughts?
Well DB most LBS think that the OM/OW are the problem and once they are eliminated then problem solved. The reality is the OP is just a symptom of the problem. My guess is they are still in contact and she still wants a divorce.
Speak to a lawyer, detach GAL and give her time and space. That’s all you can do right now.
I'm so sorry to hear this. Well, the decision to go dark or not has been made. As LH19 says not much to do now except to work on re-building yourself for your next relationship (with her, or someone else).
Well DB most LBS think that the OM/OW are the problem and once they are eliminated then problem solved. The reality is the OP is just a symptom of the problem. My guess is they are still in contact and she still wants a divorce.
Yes, or OM really did cut contact and now she is looking for OM2. But LH is exactly right, she's not coming back just because she had her candy taken away. Have you ever seen "My 600 Pound Life"? When those people go on the show and are put on a forced diet, it is AMAZING the lengths they will go to in order to secretly get a fast food fix. Even if confined to a hospital they find ways, even though they are only hurting themselves. That's the power of addiction, and make no mistake wayward wives are fully addicted.
Speak to a lawyer, detach GAL and give her time and space. That’s all you can do right now.
Absolutely.
My thoughts are that you shouldn't believe anything she says and only half of what she does. Implement the LRT.
Put the focus on you and not on her.
Thanks everyone for your responses. She came by yesterday to pick up some stuff from the house. She was cordial and we had some small talk. I tried to be scarce with my words, and left the room once we were done with the small talk. Will be seeing her again later today for a vet’s appointment for our dog.
Oh, and she was still wearing her wedding ring (as was I).
Another update:
Yesterday we took the dog to the vet, and everything was cordial once again. She was still wearing her wedding ring. At one point, she did initiate talk about how her work was going, and I engaged her about that. Other than that, all other talk was just small talk, and my words were "scarce".
She did her laundry, and after she left the house, I found that she had also done my laundry. So then I texted her a "thank you, you didn't have to do that." She responded with "it's ok. you're welcome."
I don't know when I'll see her again.
So yesterday, I did not see her, but I did notice that she logged into our security alarm system mobile app last night. The only reason she would have to log into the app is to check the activity at home (the app tracks motion in the house, the opening and closing of doors/windows, and the alarm being set to on or off). This is the first time she has checked the app in a very long time. Was she checking on me? Was she wondering about me? Getting curious about me?
Still doing LRT...
Was she checking on me? Was she wondering about me? Getting curious about me?
DB you are set the impossible task of trying to not care if she was or wasn't think about you. It isn't easy.