New thread to continue from the first part.
Part 1:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2861875#Post2861875Really appreciate everybody's input so far. Keep the advice coming please - it is most welcome!!
Recap for everyone:
Married 3 years, together 8. No kids.
W discovered I have had a strong porn addiction. Since before we met. She discovered I'd signed up to 2 websites (free), contributed and maintained profiles on these sites, then messaged 2 women in explicit chat/email, paid these two women £60 over 8 months (since September 2018) for photos of them. I also uploaded pics of some of my exes and 2 photos of my SIL from her Facebook page to one of these women in (private) chat - they commented on them all in a sexual way. W asked me to move out in May. I'm living with parents. She's in the house alone. She applied for divorce. I received the paperwork yesterday (28th August). She wants to sell the house. We've had 2 estate agents look already.
I'm getting IC. She refuses it. I'm GALing. She says she wants to remain friends and is "sad everything has happened the way it has."
Hi Dan,
I am sure you had bigger issues than porn in your M.
It is important that you get to a point where you understand that the she has an EQUAL part in the failing of the M.
Relationships are 50/50.
When you get to this point,(hopefully right now) You should AGREE with her that the M was not working for you either.
You want way more in a marriage than what you had.
This puts you both on the same page.
She says she wants to remain friends
I would make it clear that you will not be her friend if she divorces you. You will be friendly to get through this a quickly and painless as possible.
Do not say this, but it is your belief:
"I can't be friends with someone I love"
I'm not going to text if she gets home safely. I will only respond if she texts first. I'm doing this more now. I'm only texting first if I have to get into the house (only she can access the alarm remotely now, and I no longer have a smart phone).
Or don't respond at all to her sometimes.
But defintely go with R2C's advice on friends. I have 0 "friends" that are women. I have a good friend who is "friends" with lots of women, funny how he has slept with all of them.
I second the "friend" comments above. I've moved to being cordial and pleasant but I'm not communicating anything more than logistics. I agree with you that it's tough - we have a level of intimacy and shared background that makes conversing easy. As soon as the D is finalized, though, I expect these to be few and far between. My W had said that she wanted me to come to her family's home for holidays, etc. Nope. Haven't said that yet but will politely decline all joint activities going forward.
At a higher level, I'm not proactively informing her of D3's activities (e.g. if she wants to know that D3 had a bath last night she can ask me, I'm not telling her). I do inform her when I will be taking D3 out of town but it's this: "FYI, I'm taking D3 to [hometown] this weekend, she'll be there Fri-Mon". I'm not even acknowledging TMs from her that I don't need to (FYIs, etc.).
All that to say that you should make this as easy on yourself as possible - if in doubt, don't communicate it out. Unless it's something your W needs to know for logistics then don't send it. Keep all messages brief. Don't tack on any personal stuff. Don't even put in small talk ("House is locked up. Crazy weather, huh?"). If you want to communicate with someone, do it with other friends, coworkers, or at your new hobby (you're getting those, right?).
I am sure you had bigger issues than porn in your M.
It is important that you get to a point where you understand that the she has an EQUAL part in the failing of the M.
Relationships are 50/50.
I think the only other issue was me having a massive case of NGS: Feeling inadequate, always seeking approval, being afraid to try new things, reclusive emotionally, not revealing problems or failings, hiding mistakes.
She is a very strong, heart-on-sleeve person. I envied that about her. She just "did stuff" for the sake of doing stuff, tried things, if they didn't work, she moved on easily.
I suppose a joint failing was communication. She would expect me to know that she was unhappy about something and purposely didn't bring it up until it was late in the day when she'd be more angry rather than have a simple restrained "I'm a little concerned about this" talk.
Journal
She is back from holiday tonight.
Not sure what to do if she chases me on the estate agents. She's convinced the sale of our house will be done in a matter of weeks but both agents told me it'll realistically be Xmas by the time something major happens.
I had a few nostalgia moments throughout the day. I had a bit of a sad walk round town during my lunch break at work today, although I was doing my 'confidence' thing where I make myself stand tall and keep my head up and that certainly works. I went to a book shop (the air-con in it was very welcome) and found a book by Esther Perel about surviving infidelity. I read a brief section about spouses writing 'goodbye' letters to each other in their final therapy sessions when D was finalised. I started crying in the book store reading some of them. Made me think of all the little quirks of my W that I adore so much. I wanted to buy the book and send it to my W. I composed myself and walked out into the sunshine, then went back to work for the afternoon.
I got a haircut today to feel better still. I did some exercise at home and tomorrow willl FINALLY go to the gym near my work to sign up to start in September. Thinking taking classes in cycling, yoga, weights, and then also using the swimming pool and sauna. Probably 3-4 times a week.
One thing my W loves is Jellycat toys. We have a big collection of them, about 30. She says I have a gift for animating them - I move their bodies and arms around as if they're real and she loved it. They told little stories and she used to have silly conversations with these stuffed toys - it was so cute to watch her have a bit of silly fun. A particular fave of hers is a lion about 8" tall - she calls him "Mr Lion" - we created a very lazy, selfish, mischievous but lovable personality for him, and she says she is a 'kindred spirit' to him somewhat. We had lots of laughs together. It's these silly moments that I miss. Quoting Family Guy every so often in conversation. Dancing briefly in the kitchen to jazz on the radio while we wait for the dinner to cook. Cuddling on the sofa watching Stranger Things. Listening to Madness in the car on long journeys and hearing my W's regular lament that she can't play the piano. Lots of nice memories.
I suddenly felt angry towards W - rushing into a S and D, blabbing my porn addiction to her entire family and most of her close friends (though her parents don't know all the sordid details). She even told me "I shouldn't have told everyone. I don't know why I did that." I was so annoyed! Then her blanking me suddenly last month. I think of her bad-mouthing me to all and sundry. I haven't checked her Facebook profile for 2 months. I've hidden her from the site to avoid temptation and snooping.
Then I felt calmer - Reminding myself that I'm sorting myself out, becoming confident and GALing. I felt better this evening.
She hasn't texted me this evening tosay she's back. I won't contact her to check if she got back safely. I'll wait for her to text first.
Journal
She hasn't texted me this evening tosay she's back. I won't contact her to check if she got back safely. I'll wait for her to text first.
Good idea. But don't 'wait' for the text - if it comes, it comes.
If you want to get into the gym, I'd suggest go and buy your own bench and weights. That way, you can train whenever you want at home.
BTW, I love Madness too - can't listen to "Embarassment" anymore though.
Good luck Dan
DS9, yes I have some kettle bells at home so using those as well as doing sit-ups etc.
It's 8.30am and she hasn't messaged me. I assume she's back ok.
I hope her shoulder is getting better.
I looked in the mirror this morning and didn't feel disgusted with myself. I thought "You are a good guy. You had some issues. You're tackling them. You're not a bad person." Or words to that effect anyway.
Good stuff - get some barbells and dumbbells so you can adjust the weight and up it. Youtube some techniques and do it every day several times a day and you’ll see the results and feel even better when you look in that mirror.
Don’t stress about no message. The reality has changed. Message your buddy’s instead.
What are you doing for GAL? I struggle with this actually. I became such a homebody and family man it’s hard to adapt. I forced myself out for a burger at a nice burger joint then went for a few quiet ones at the local. Was hoping some nice ladies would pick me up but no dice- mostly old men!
I’m going to do online gaming later tonight with some mates. I thought the other night how weird is that a 40 something man playing shooting games!
For GAL I'm talking to friends that I've not made effort to stay in touch with lately. Mostly talking on FB messenger or text as they live far away, but it's nice to speak to them. They are of course asking for updates on my situation and they're sad and basically on my side even if I am the one who caused my W's pain, and she isn't cheating or having a MLC.
I'm having a few days out by myself. I have gone to a TV recording for a comedy show, and a few orchestral concerts in London (going again on Saturday - might go earlier so I can have a few hours shopping and walking in parks).
I am a musician and I write/arrange music so have been just creating projects for myself to work on. So I'd get to my parents' house after work, relax, have dinner, watch TV, exercise, then do a bit of project work. Then watch some comedy on TV then bed. That's working.
I think going to the gym will also help. I've always been scared of going to a gym (NGS) - just the fear of other more 'alpha' guys thinking snide comments about my scrawny frame and how I'll be here a while before any results happen (!). But actually, you know what? I've learned quickly from IC that it doesn't matter. They're not thinking about me. They're just thinking about themselves. So I'm learning to leave those thoughts behind.
Sandi2, I did respond to your questions - they're on the previous thread. Sorry, I can't send a private message to let you know this!
I appreciate you taking the time to read through my situation. I know you're very busy and in need on this forum!
Found it strange to read in the divorce papers that my W said "my husband declined marriage counselling."
Now, I have *absolutely* no recollection of her mentioning it, though that doesn't mean she said it. It may have been said fleetingly in the midst of a long rant she was giving, and I've forgotten that bit.
But what really irks me is that two months ago she definitely mentioned the possibility of getting therapy together, then when I mentioned it again in July about us getting some, she vehemently refused the very thought of it!! She said, "I don't need that. I'll be fine."
Other than that, had a lovely dinner out with my parents, sister and her H and dog Hugo (black miniature poodle). It was very nice and we laughed a bit. We didn't talk about my situation at all. I was glad.
"Dropping the rope" is extremely difficult. I've found it very hard.
The lyrics of Toto's Rosanna come to mind - "Never thought that losing you could ever hurt so bad".
I'm quite a romantic so envisage everything working out, regardless of what's happened.
Always have, even with past girlfriends who now I'd avoid like the plague and have zero affection for now.
My W has filed for D. I received the papers yesterday evening in the post. I have been trying to GAL as much as possible. When I last saw her on 17th Aug, she commented "so life's good for you then?" I tried to answer "yes" in a happy and upbeat way. I think she looked annoyed. She didn't press it though.
Dan - you put the above in another thread, but I thought I would respond here.
Dropping the rope doesn't happen overnight. It's one of those paradoxical things, too, where you have to stop trying in order for it to happen.
You're going through the grieving process. It's hard to DB and grieve at the same time. Hang in there and things will get better, I promise. Early on it's normal to be frustrated about how DB is going, because you are also dealing with a lot of emotional flooding.
What you call romantic sounds an awful lot like NGS. I'm the same way, for instance I always liked tying things off neat when I broke up with XGF's (instead of just being honest and telling them the truth). Stuff like that.
I think what's most important early on is just committing to the DB process and following the guidelines. Eventually, you will find your emotional center and this will come more naturally. Early on in my situation I wasted a lot of energy worrying that I was emotionally ping-ponging all over the place, rather than just accepting it as part of the process, believing it would pass, and in the meantime doing the best "fake it til you make it" impression that I could.
I think that's the way forward now.
I am thinking positively for me. Trying my absolute best to GAL and just fill my time with good things.
I found it scary how the NGS book described me so accurately. I have so many traits of NGS. It is saddening to hear it. THIS is why everything went wrong. Not in my M but in previous relationships too even though they were not as intense as my M.
Detaching is hard. I keep looking at my phone expecting something from her. I haven't asked her if she got back safely from holiday. I haven't contacted her at all.
I will probably send back the D papers next week.
Do I need to tell her "I don't want this, but I know I can't change your mind. I'm not going to obstruct you." Or something to that effect? I want to save the M, but she is so stubborn and has given up. I would still fight for it.
Got IC next Thursday so will have a lot to update my therapist with now!
I will probably send back the D papers next week.
Do I need to tell her "I don't want this, but I know I can't change your mind. I'm not going to obstruct you." Or something to that effect? I want to save the M, but she is so stubborn and has given up. I would still fight for it.
Nope, she knows already, just send them back sans message. Move on with your life as much as possible. You don't want to create barriers to her returning but you don't need to place giant billboards stating "TURN HERE NOW FOR LIFELONG LOVE". For this to work she has to believe that there is something about you that she hasn't seen before and you being what you have always been won't do that. GAL. Take a dancing class. Take that scotch-tasting trip you've always wanted to but she wasn't interested in so you held off (and resented, most likely). Enroll in a history class. Take yoga. Whatever it is, GAL.
One other thing I did that I can say was a mistake - I laid everything out to my W's parents (against the advice on this board). I was hoping that they would see that, while I was the "bad guy", I wasn't a demon. Regardless of whether or not I was successful it did not help my sitch and they are essentially not talking to me (probably because I stopped assisting with the divorce process). So, if you are having urges to tell her friends or family that you've changed, resist them. I can't say that my sitch would be better if I hadn't said anything but it wouldn't be worse. Our W's have demonized us, all they see is darkness. Only time and being different (i.e. disrupting their narrative) will change that.
I had to contact her this monring (Sunday) to tell her what the bills were for the house.
I kept it short and to the point.
Yes I was thinking if I should write a little note to her parents to apologise (they live 200 miles away), but I guess that would not help at this stage.
What I cannot understand is how someone can be in love for 8 years, and then decide they are not in love within the space of 12 weeks. Is this an example of "Don't believe 100% of what they say?"
I cracked - I checked my Ws facebook page.
Not much on there, certainly nothing about our R. She has simply removed the 'relationship status' and our M from the 'life events' tab. That's it. She has just been going out with girl friends. Few snaps from her recent holiday. That's it really.
I am annoyed with myself for doing this. But I lasted 3 months without looking.
Anyway, seeing my IC on Thursday 5th for an update. I am going to speak to them about NGS and my progress (signed up to the gym, exercising, working on hobbies, little contact with W recently).
I had to contact her this monring (Sunday) to tell her what the bills were for the house.
I kept it short and to the point.
Yes I was thinking if I should write a little note to her parents to apologise (they live 200 miles away), but I guess that would not help at this stage.
What I cannot understand is how someone can be in love for 8 years, and then decide they are not in love within the space of 12 weeks. Is this an example of "Don't believe 100% of what they say?"
No, not a good idea to send the in laws anything. DB principles apply to them too.
In my case, my MIL contacted me a few months after BD in a fury about my XW after she found out. I slipped a little in telling her about some of the details (she had been told a fib about why my XW left) and I got a bit emotional (I didnt know about DB principles back then) but finished by telling her I'll be fine, she needs to support her daughter and not be angry with her, and that I'd always acted with honour and hadn't done the things she'd been told.
She has said that a 3rd estate agent is coming round tomorrow (Tuesday) to value the house. She texted me to ask if there are any questions she needs to ask.
I will reply and get her to ask about certain fees so we can compare them. I want to end my reply with "Very sad about our house." Should I? Is that pursuing?
Looking at the divorce application online.
All I need to do is click a few buttons saying:
"I have read the divorce application."
"I accept the divorce and won't defend."
"I confirm I don't have any other court judgements."
I can't defend - neither my wife and I can afford this.
There are two incorrect things in her blurb about why she's divorcing me, but they're a mix up of dates so I won't pick her up on those.
It is all so COLD. I'm breaking my marriage up literally at the click of a button.
It's horrible.
I do want things to work out but my W is so adamant about this. I can't understand how she's decided in less than 12 weeks that she would prefer to lose our house, our security, and everything we've built for 8 years. It's the 'easy option' for her, to walk away. She would rather not try. This is what hurts me the most. Although I'm the one in the wrong entirely, SHE is the one who has given up. Even when she mentioned therapy a couple of months ago and seemed more positive towards it, now she's changed her mind.
Hi Dan I wouldn’t say that. I think you already made your position and deep remorse clear. Not only is it pursuing but she may think if you’re now so sad about it then why did you put us in this position. Not judging you just speculation on her mindset.
Don’t fight her on this divorce application Dan. Be the man who takes the higher road. If there’s factual issues speak to a lawyer about how to respond. Do this before signing off.
Remember the divorce means nothing compared to losing her heart. If it’s any consolation you had a good run at 12 weeks- my run was 5 hours. I don’t know the answer to why this happens. It’s emotional and sometimes defies logic.
I am certain that her sister and some of her friends have manipulated her/coerced her in this.
She denies it and I cannot prove it, but I don't want to look into it any further. Just a gut feeling.
OK I won't say I'm sad about the house.
We have both agreed we won't fight. At present we are being pleasant and not arguing. I have detached to a degree and not actively spoken to her. Only responded to her if she has reached out.
I assume this is correct.
I of course want her to see how I've changed. I'm just hoping that in time she will see this. Whether she regrets the D and selling/losing our lovely beautiful home and putting herself in a very much worse of position (living in a room in her brother's house, no space to run her businesses, taking on extra work she doesn't want to do) is another matter.
Yeah Dan her cheer squad probably encouraged things but let that go. Good friends would have told her to stick with it and work it out, like my friends did. In my sitch my XW told me she was sick of bitching about me to her friends and colleagues. These are the same people who my XW used to sing my praises to and ask for my help and advice on their behalf when they had issues that I could help with due to my area of expertise. Make sure when you see these friends and family you show the best version of you even if your insides are churning. Try to give a good and positive vibe. Read something on the law of attraction that talks about vibrational attraction. Dress masculine and impeccably at all times around your w, her friends and family. I posted on ozmans thread a few weeks ago some thoughts on dress, appearance etc.
Yes only respond when she reaches out. Polite concise and businesslike.
Good luck mate
Yes I agree completely.
If I do ever see them - not sure if that will happen anytime soon - I will be positive and amiable.
I get so sad sometimes. Especially when I think back to our lovely moments together. It's the little things I miss. Part of me is thinking, maybe it was the security of the relationship I miss, not her specifically, but then there are so many things I see that remind me of her, or I see something and think "ah, my W would love that." or "I know what she would have to say about that!". I miss the in-jokes and laughter most of all.
Thanks - I need luck certainly!
Yeah me too mate. I miss all that too, especially the random acts of kindness/service and the personal jinx moments but try not to think about it or it eats you up. I reckon a lot of this is to do with immediate personal happiness over working things out and having responsibility and a desire to communicate needs clearly.
What are you doing for gal? I’m joining a tennis club this week. Took my sd and s for Father’s Day lunch yesterday and my sd paid for lunch! I find I need to force myself or I just sit at home!
For GAL I've signed up to local gym (starting in a few days), exercising at home too, hobbies at home, walking, speaking to friends that I haven't spoken to in a while.
Also have had a few day trips to London to see things (concerts, comedy etc.) on my own. Takes my mind off the situation. Might do more of that soon.
At work I'm doing exams (accountancy) and waiting on results for my last one. Hopefully that means a pay rise!
Yes I have remorse for not reaching out for help - she even said "If you had done it in private and sorted yourself out and didn't tell me, everything would have been fine and I would never have known." But because of the nature of my addiction I was ashamed to tell anyone - friends/family etc. I have expressed to her my remorse and regret that I never sought help.
My W is still really important to me. I don't hate her, and I haven't stopped loving her. I am just sad that she is so hardened that she feels it's ok to chuck the last 8 years away.
I really don't think I can do the "If this divorce goes through I do not want to be friends with you" thing.
It seems so cruel. To cut her out my life after making her part of the centre of my world for eight years.
I don't get the impression she wants to do that to me; well she's never said she wants to in the 3months this has all been going on. I don't think I could handle never seeing her again. I know it's easy to say that now, but we did have a particular connection, as cliched as that sounds, and to close the door on it forever seems too drastic.
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Had a sad morning thinking about W. Various emotions really. Loss, frustration, hope, love, happiness.
I feel so sad that she has decided to throw away everything in less than 3 months.
What do people think about this? If I had been in a relationship with someone for 8 years and it was on the whole really good with no issues, and the person I was with cheated on me - let's say a physical affair lasting 1 year (to clarify, I have NOT had a PA) - I don't think I would just kick them out forever and move on. I'd think "hang on, we've had 8 years together. They've made a mistake. A huge one nonetheless, and I will definitely take time to forgive, but I like to think I will."
I think it would be rather offensive to chuck a relationship away "just like that"; surely the betrayer would think that the 8 years didn't matter one bit to me.
I'd weigh up everything:
Have they abused me? No
Have they stolen from me? No
Have they belittled me in public? No
Do we argue all the time? No
I'd then think "OK - you have really hurt me, but I want this to work out because what we have is worth saving. I suggest we separate for a short time, you attend IC, and then perhaps we see someone together (MC) in a few weeks once you've started sorting your issues out. I don't want to give up on this M."
Yes the trust breaking is a big matter, I'm not downplaying that. I'm just interested to know others' thoughts on this. I don't see how people can simply axe a relationship in what is seemingly a moment's thought. It doesn't make sense to me.
Hey Dan I think if I found out about a 1 year PA it’d be all over for me. I think your addiction is on a much lower scale than that though. How often was it happening, when did she find out and how long had you been addicted?
Is there anything you can pick in the last couple of years which could underly her position and this was the proverbial straw?
DS9 - it had been going on in the background for our entire relationship - 8 years. I'd been 'using' the sites from actually before we met, but exchanged chats with 2 women for 8 months from September 2018.
It's certainly part of NGS and my therapist has been great in identifying certain things too - fear of intimacy, poor body image etc.
She found out everything in May this year.
She had caught me previously - a few pics on my phone in Xmas 2017. She was angry but it only lasted a day or so. I slept in the spare room that night. She was ok afterwards but would bring it up occasionally for a month or so afterwards. Valentine's day was a bit awkward but she was fine after that.
In the last year or so we hadn't had a huge amount of sex. About 4 or 5 times January to May. I've covered this in earlier posts. She has a few illnesses and was also giving me the impression that she wasn't interested. Communication was an issue from both her and me; she wouldn't bring up her concern until it was too late, by which time I couldn't do anything to change things, and I would assume that there was no problem as she didn't bring it up.
Weirdly, when we were separated we were intimate 6 times in one week in June (!).
I know, I was selfish and stupid to do what I did. I have remorse and am acknowledging my actions and consequences.
OK I had a backslide of detaching.
As an anniversary present, I made my W a little gift - a short stop-motion film featuring all her Jellycat toys. I also included a lot of references to in-jokes that we've had over the years. The background music was 'our song'. Not the song that we had at our wedding, just a song that means a lot to both of us about our R.
I left it in the house a while ago. I had started it in March (before W found out everything), but wanted to finish it despite everything that had happened. I just left a note saying that there wasn't a good time to give it to her in person, I didn't want to leave it incomplete, and hope she liked it.
Anyway, she texted me today:
W: "I got the DVD you made. I don't understand why you would make it, especially with our song. You know it's going to make this so much harder for me to bare? Is it deliberate? I just don't understand you at all."
I haven't replied yet, but I'm going to say:
Me - "I do see how you would feel it’ll make things harder to deal with. That’s not why I did it - I’m not out to upset you. I’m just letting you know that I care for you, no matter what. I can imagine how it would be overwhelming at this time. It’s really not deliberate. That song means so much to both of us, and what’s in the film. My intention was only good."
I believe I'm validating here but not being too defensive. I won't say sorry as that suggests NGS to me - thoughts?
Hi Dan,
For GAL I've signed up to local gym (starting in a few days), exercising at home too, hobbies at home, walking, speaking to friends that I haven't spoken to in a while.
Also have had a few day trips to London to see things (concerts, comedy etc.) on my own. Takes my mind off the situation. Might do more of that soon.
At work I'm doing exams (accountancy) and waiting on results for my last one. Hopefully that means a pay rise!
AWESOME!! Work on getting to the point where 75% of your post content is stuff like this. THIS is your path to healing!
My W is still really important to me. I don't hate her, and I haven't stopped loving her. I am just sad that she is so hardened that she feels it's ok to chuck the last 8 years away.
Yes it's hard for us all to wrap our heads around what happened to our M's. For some of us there's no reason at all. I was with my XW nearly 25 years and the most I ever got from her was "I don't know why, I just don't want to try anymore." You can spend your days contemplating the why's and what if's or you can go about the business of making yourself awesome. Having walked the path I'm here to tell you the 2nd choice is the way to go.
I think going to the gym will also help. I've always been scared of going to a gym (NGS) - just the fear of other more 'alpha' guys thinking snide comments about my scrawny frame and how I'll be here a while before any results happen (!).
It will definitely help, and having spent decades in multiple gyms I can tell you that your fears are completely unfounded. There are people from every walk of life working out in most gyms. Skinny, fat, buff, old, young, handicapped, etc. etc. I don't even particularly notice who is there or what they look like, I'm just there to get business done like most everyone else. Just use common sense, like don't hog up space in front of the dumbbell rack or jump on a bench or machine that someone else is using (if there's a towel on it that generally means someone is still using it and may not be on it at that moment because they are supersetting or something) and no one will care what you're doing. And don't ego-lift, no one cares how much you're lifting or how many times but if you're trying to lift too much and your form is horrible then people will be rolling their eyes. If you've never lifted in your life then spend some money on a trainer for a while, that is money extremely well spent because you will learn how to lift correctly from the beginning. Proper form is very, very important to keep you from getting injured.
Now let's talk about NGS for a second. You've read the book so you know NGS isn't about "being nice", it's about being passive/aggressive while putting on a facade of being a nice guy. Nice guys are VERY concerned about what others think of them. Not about what kind of person they really are, but more about what kind of person others -think- they are. So your gym fears are as you suspected largely because of NGS. So are all the following statements you've made:
Do I need to tell her "I don't want this, but I know I can't change your mind. I'm not going to obstruct you." Or something to that effect?
Yes I was thinking if I should write a little note to her parents to apologise (they live 200 miles away), but I guess that would not help at this stage.
I will reply and get her to ask about certain fees so we can compare them. I want to end my reply with "Very sad about our house." Should I? Is that pursuing?
I really don't think I can do the "If this divorce goes through I do not want to be friends with you" thing.
It seems so cruel. To cut her out my life after making her part of the centre of my world for eight years.
How is all that nice guy stuff working out for you so far? DROP IT! Here's the thing- people love a bad boy. Women love bad boys. Men love bad boys. Why? Because you know what you're getting. Even if they are a-holes you know that's who they are, they're "real". Why are men so afraid of being perceived as "bad" when that's exactly what most people are attracted to? It's strange. So quit freakin' worrying about whether everyone thinks you're nice, they probably DO think you're nice and that's part of the problem.
As an anniversary present, I made my W a little gift - a short stop-motion film featuring all her Jellycat toys. I also included a lot of references to in-jokes that we've had over the years. The background music was 'our song'. Not the song that we had at our wedding, just a song that means a lot to both of us about our R.
I left it in the house a while ago. I had started it in March (before W found out everything), but wanted to finish it despite everything that had happened. I just left a note saying that there wasn't a good time to give it to her in person, I didn't want to leave it incomplete, and hope she liked it.
Anyway, she texted me today:
W: "I got the DVD you made. I don't understand why you would make it, especially with our song. You know it's going to make this so much harder for me to bare? Is it deliberate? I just don't understand you at all."
Let me ask you something, if you break your arm which do you think would help it heal faster:
A) get it set and then leave it alone for a long time so it can heal on its own
B) hit it with a hammer each day to see if that makes it better
QUIT DOING B TO YOUR FAILING MARRIAGE! That is MAJOR pursuit, like exactly the kind of pursuit that makes your W think you are pathetic and someone she needs to get away from as quickly as possible.
I haven't replied yet, but I'm going to say:
Me - "I do see how you would feel it’ll make things harder to deal with. That’s not why I did it - I’m not out to upset you. I’m just letting you know that I care for you, no matter what. I can imagine how it would be overwhelming at this time. It’s really not deliberate. That song means so much to both of us, and what’s in the film. My intention was only good."
Really? That's how you want to respond? Go back and read DR again. Read NMMNG again. Also pick up and read The Married Man Sex Life Primer. Don't say or do ANYTHING to your W until you've really read them deeply. Don't just blast through them in an evening, read to UNDERSTAND.
I believe I'm validating here but not being too defensive. I won't say sorry as that suggests NGS to me - thoughts?
It is dripping with pursuit and NGS. Just don't reply.
AS, thanks for such an extensive reply. Much appreciated.
I'm worried that if I don't reply at all, she will simply respond with "Really? No answer? Don't you care?" or similar.
I don't want to justify what I did - I realise that I should not have done it and left it there for her to find. I just wanted to, that was the problem. However, is it ok to not reply to that then? Not even to validate and say something like "I can see how overwhelming it might have been for you. It is not deliberate." and leave it at that?
Just seems rude to not reply.
I'm worried that if I don't reply at all, she will simply respond with "Really? No answer? Don't you care?" or similar.
If you feel you must reply then say something like "I just thought it was a nice gesture, but I can see why it affected you negatively. I will keep that in mind in the future."
Don't say you're "sorry" or apologize for it, just acknowledge her feelings.
Yes that's a good response. Short and also validates. Thank you.
I met up with one of my schoolfriends for lunch today. Was great to see her and catch up. She is on my side and feels W is over-reacting (but then she doesn't have any problems with porn at all). Was nice to discuss things openly with a close friend of 20+ years. We agreed to arrange a dinner with other friends one time soon.
I'm trying to just distract myself with Spotify whilst I'm at work - with absolutely nothing that reminds me of W.
It's working.
Going to keep up with GAL; it's really helping.
I met up with one of my schoolfriends for lunch today. Was great to see her and catch up. She is on my side and feels W is over-reacting (but then she doesn't have any problems with porn at all).
I've avoided talking about the porn issue because I don't really know how deep you went down the rabbit hole. Obviously if it's affecting your work and your relationships then clearly that's an issue, and only you really know that. But just in general almost every man watches porn (there's an old joke- 99% of men watch porn and the other 1% lie about it), and I would venture to say that everyone that wants to throw you under the bus for it has watched it themselves.
Whether you're religious or not there's a significant quote attributed to Jesus- "First, remove the beam out of your own eye, and then you can see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother's eye." So your wife wants to wreck her life and yours over you watching porn, but is her life so squeaky clean? Or is she trying to remove a splinter from your eye while having a log wedged in her own? I doubt she's perfect.
I'm not giving you a free pass for the porn addiction, but I am agreeing with you that this should not be a deal-breaker in a relationship. If your W thinks she is going to leave you and go out there and find a perfect man who never watches porn then may God bless her poor, ignorant soul, LOL!
I went fairly deep as I relied on it as escapism from my problems that I should have addressed a long time ago. I'm addressing them now.
It wasn't affecting work (never looked at work) - only ever in my own time at home.
I should have stopped at simply 'looking' or 'curiosity'. It then spiralled. Unfortunately this spiralling happened at the same time as a lovely relationship with a great woman.
She is absolutely not perfect. She is a hypochondriac, stubborn, and she smokes when she is drunk which I really hate, but when I say I don't like that she smokes she just says "well I can do what I want." (it's not regular that's what annoys me. It's infrequent - I just think "well just don't do it then!").
I think it was a rebelling thing - she started smoking socially at college, abotu age 19/20, and she admits it was to rebel against her parents' staunch Christian upbringing. She certainly has issues but refuses therapy of any sort.
Yes wrecking both our lives over this. And I've stopped, and GALing instead.
Hi Dan,
AnotherStander has given you some fantastic advise. To respond to a couple points:
If I had been in a relationship with someone for 8 years.. and the person I was with cheated on me - let's say a physical affair lasting 1 year
I'd be 100% done, no question. You watched porn and messaged women, very different.
As an anniversary present, I made my W a little gift - a short stop-motion film
My ex-wife did something similar--she sent me a Photo DVD of all the good years we were together. I watched 1-2 slides, vented to friends she wouldn't leave me alone, and never replied.
I do see how you would feel it’ll make things harder to deal with.
Yikes! She tells you it makes this harder for her--and you disagree?!
I just thought it was a nice gesture, but I can see why it affected you negatively. I will keep that in mind in the future.
Masterful response--1-2 lines explaining why you did it, validating her feelings, and not apologizing.
She texted at around 5pm just saying "Sorry but you should have known it would upset me. I guess it doesn't matter now really."
Worth replying? I haven't yet.
If you didn't give a brief reply earlier, it still doesn't hurt to.
If you already replied earlier, no need for another.
I've drafted:
"I just thought it would be a nice gesture. It was not deliberate. I can see how you would be affected by it though. I didn't intend to upset you."
Hi Dan
I think most people here are in general agreement that Ws reaction seems to have been a bit extreme. So, is it all a bit of a convenient 'reason' for her to leave the M?
Is there something that we are missing here? Is there something that you are missing here? A deeper problem in the marriage perhaps? Could there be somebody else? I'm sorry to put that out there, but for me (as a 'wronged wife') there is something that doesn't add up.
In my eyes you are 'newlyweds' and if she is prepared to end your M in this way, for this reason, are you sure she is who you thought she was? Seems a bit lacking in staying power if I'm honest.
Marriages are full of hiccups. This looks on the surface to be a minor hiccup. If she's going to falter over this then I don't think that's an indication of how awful you were, but an indication of her character perhaps.
In no way do I wish to downplay what was wrong. I can imagine how hurtful that discovery was for her. A bit of life experience suggests to me that at some point, she's going to look back and feel her over reaction like a slap in the face. But I do think she has to fully realise what she has lost. Sending her gifts of reminiscence and romance is not going to do that is it?
Well this is interesting...I sent my reply this morning. I deliberately didn't respond yesterday. I felt a bit bad initially, but then thought "nope, don't feel bad about that. Detach."
I get this response before leaving for work this morning:
"I get that it was a nice gesture and it would have taken a lot of work. I was just hard to watch. I am sorry I came across as harsh."
This is proof that validating works! I didn't apologise for the gift, but she said sorry for her reaction.
I think most people here are in general agreement that Ws reaction seems to have been a bit extreme. So, is it all a bit of a convenient 'reason' for her to leave the M?
Is there something that we are missing here? Is there something that you are missing here? A deeper problem in the marriage perhaps? Could there be somebody else? I'm sorry to put that out there, but for me (as a 'wronged wife') there is something that doesn't add up.
In my eyes you are 'newlyweds' and if she is prepared to end your M in this way, for this reason, are you sure she is who you thought she was? Seems a bit lacking in staying power if I'm honest.
Marriages are full of hiccups. This looks on the surface to be a minor hiccup. If she's going to falter over this then I don't think that's an indication of how awful you were, but an indication of her character perhaps.
In no way do I wish to downplay what was wrong. I can imagine how hurtful that discovery was for her. A bit of life experience suggests to me that at some point, she's going to look back and feel her over reaction like a slap in the face. But I do think she has to fully realise what she has lost. Sending her gifts of reminiscence and romance is not going to do that is it?
I really don't know tbh Yorkie.
I don't believe she is seeing someone else. I don't believe she would have it in her to keep a secret like that. She always says, "I have given my whole heart to you. And only you." She also says she "can't lie. I feel a terrible knot in my stomach if I lie so I cannot be deceitful." I think this is the remnants of a strict and rather strange Christian upbringing (e.g. they didn't have a TV til she was about 13, alcoholic gran lived with them for several years who constantly belittled them and insulted them, often in front of their parents who didn't defend them etc.)
This is what EVERYBODY I've spoken to - my family, my friends, my IC - all agree on. And to most of them, I've revealed the full details of my porn addiction and what I did. My sister said early on, "This is the worst thing you'll ever go through as a couple. Why is she so keen on throwing everything away so soon? It's not like you'll ever do something like this again after seeing her reaction this first time."
Everything I did behind my wife's back was only online. I have never met up with anybody. My wife was my "first time" for goodness' sake! She maintains that I had "an emotional relationship" with the 2 women. She is basing this on the fact that I said things like "I miss you, I want you." etc. in our chats/emails. I wasn't actually 'falling' for these women - I never even saw their faces or spoke to them on the phone. I had no feelings for them other than lust. I said those things to get a reaction - I guess that's the addiction there, going for the buzz of a reaction, keeping it sustained.
OK, perhaps I should not have given her that gift. I just didn't want it left on my computer unfinished. I felt compelled to complete it. Yes, I wanted to remind her of what we have and what our relationship means to me. I see how that looks- an ulterior motive, manipulative. But that wasn't my intention, genuinely. I just wanted to do a nice thing for the woman I love. Lately
I haven't been begging or pursuing - although I do acknowledge that gift was pursuing - and not arguing with her. She is also not being angry with me. Things are fairly calm at the mo between us.
She has said that she feels was always the 'leader' in the relationship. I was quite passive (big case of Nice Guy Syndrome here). Wasn't as open as her; I knew everything about her but I didn't tell her lots of things about my past etc. She was unhappy that some of her friends portrayed me as a 'brow-beaten' husband and 'she wore the trousers' - I wasn't, it's just that if she said something or picked me up on anything, it was usually right anyway! We never really argued. I didn't avoid arguments - although there was an element of that certainly - but I often found myself agreeing with her anyway so it wasn't really an issue.
However in June when things were going well, I took the lead and said "Right we're going to do [xyz] today." She was pleased about that.
But in my view that's a minor thing. She never regularly brought that up regularly. I think it's a communication thing as well. She waited for me to talk about something; I was waiting for her. I have suggested MC together. She is absolutely not interested, even after suggesting it herself in June when things were looking more positive. I get: "I don't need that. I've got my family and friends. I'll be fine."
OK we had a dwindling sex life too, but then she admitted "you weren't instigating so I was finding you less attractive." Again in June we were very intimate 6 times in one week. She was texting stuff like "I've thought about you all day", "It was lovely to hear you tell me I'm beautiful so often", "I've always wanted you to think I was sexy, I'm glad you were more open and vocal about it." etc.
I will be responding to the divorce papers today (online).
She keeps saying "It is a lot to lose."
"I feel complicated about losing the house."
"I am so sad how things have ended, i wish things were different."
This is the most frustrating thing. She KNOWS it's a lot to lose, yet she is prepared to chuck it all away, and i believe a big reason for this is her pride. I'm sure she doesn't want to go back on her word because she will have boasted to all her friends "well I've served him the papers now." and they'll have said, "You go girl! You show him!" She will fear looking weak to them. She is a people pleaser.
Like I said before in the previous thread, some of her work colleagues have told her "I took my husband back but I regret it and now I'm trapped and I wish I'd moved on." She believes we will be exactly the same. I don't understand that line of thought to be honest.
In my view, she really needs IC herself. But she won't listen.
Replied to the divorce papers online this afternoon.
I thought I'd need loads of time and almost make it ceremonial, but in reality I spent a few minutes logging in and clicked two buttons, then logged out and went back to work.
I've read elsewhere that I need her to SEE that I'm going along with what she wants. I've not told her I've responded. I understand she'll get an email or letter about it anyway. I won't tell her unless she asks.
Dan - Don't tell her you responded. She will find out.
Look at your success in not responding in your previous post (about the gift). You gave her the time and space to think on her own. Let her navigate her feelings on her own.
In the meantime, notice how you are feeling while you have to sit and wait and go against your instincts to reach out. Be mindful that you can tolerate those emotions without the same old knee-jerk reactions. I think emotional awareness is a key step to overcoming NGS.
Thank you, yes that is very good advice.
I feel I am becoming a little more emotionally aware. Certainly not out of NGS completely but definitely feel I've made progress.
Dan - I think NGS recovery will take years. I'm nowhere near where I want to be, but I have a better idea of what the finish line looks like!
Yes I know it will be a slow process. I will get there!
Feeling a bit better today. Doing some hobby work at the mo - too cold and windy to go out for a walk. Will do some exercise at home later this evening, then have planned to watch a couple of crime dramas on TV before bed.
Being more open and talking to friends has been a big step for me - it really makes a difference. Being honest and frank with them too is refreshing; just means they can offer much more useful advice or support as they have more info about the problem.
Haven't heard from W today. I think I missed her only for a few minutes today.
She has emailed me just now - phone problems.
Asked if I had any thoughts on which estate agent we should go with.
I'm waiting for them to confirm fees - they've all been very vague so that's not helpful.
Shall I reply immediately and say "I'm waiting for more info. When I've got all the numbers, I'll send the info to you."
It's HER decision to sell the house. I don't want to. Am I right in sending her the stuff? She's living there so I think she should be responsible for getting this in motion.
Send this now:
H:"W, when I get the fees from both agents, I will let you know my decision"
If the agents keep dragging their feet, get two or 3 more into the process:
H:"W, The two agents are taking too long on a simple task. I don't think they are a good fit. I have 3 more agents lined up. Lets see if they can get things moving quicker"
OK I've basically sent a very brief email saying that I am waiting for more info and will send her all the fees info once I've received it all.
Urgh, it's so annoying. When I saw she'd emailed me I got a huge shot of adrenaline. I didn't like that.
It all feels so surreal still. Selling the house, divorce. I never thought it'd happen to me. She probably never thought that it'd happen to her either. I hate that she is rushing everything - she just wants it done. "I want a smooth sale and it to be out of the way."
I feel like I'm a perfectly good bit of food that's been discarded in the trash unopened because it's one day past the 'best buy' date.
Won't check my email til tomorrow afternoon at work on purpose.
Less than 4 months ago, we were a happily married couple, planning work on our home. What a change in 14-15 weeks. Now she wants out, served D papers, and is pushing for the quickest house sale in England at the mo.
Thankfully my GAL plan is working out well.
What are everyone's thoughts on the house sale - should I assist when she asks?
Or should I simply give her all the figures with totals, letting her know what we could get (overall and the split of equity after fees/sale), and ask her to choose and get it moving? I feel she is asking me to sort it all out. When we were together I always sorted out money stuff. Part of me thinks she should learn herself.
I'm ambivalent about this.
1) I don't want to argue and appear obstructive. I've agreed to the divorce saying I will not defend. I believe this is the right course of action at the stage, again to avoid appearing as though I want to deliberately oppose/stall things.
HOWEVER 2) It's HER choice to sell. She lives there. The estate agents are near her, not me. I don't want to sell. I want MC and talks. She wants to put herself in a worse off position in many aspects of her life.
Hey mate I’d assist. In fact, I’d be driving the sale. Show her you’re being a real man by not only complying with the divorce but also leading the direction to wrap things up.
I know this prevails against the forums collective wisdom so wait for other views before committing.
DS9, that's why I'm ambivalent on it. In complying fully, she will get what she wants at this moment. But she will also end up in a situation where she'll realise what she's given up.
In just 3 months, she's given up on the M, dismissed MC and IC completely. Has decided she doesn't want to work on the R.
My reluctance is that it also implies that I've given up on the M too - as if I don't want to fight anymore. I don't want any of this - I'm prepared to put the work in but she is just not interested.
Ok so if you think she’s bluffing about this being the end then stall. If she queries make up tangible reasons why the house shouldn’t be sold. Suggest it get rented to offset the mortgage. Check if there’s any break fee. Tell her you want to transfer to you and refinance and need time to make enquiries.
I hear you on how quickly things changed. It happens. I was looking at old sms from my XW and I got an ilu etc 2 hours before bd. 5 hours before I got an excited call saying she’d found a house for us to buy. It makes no sense so I’ve stopped trying to make sense and so should you.
You’ve stated your case to her about not wanting it to end. Will it be better or not to actually fight this? How will she see that? Will she be sitting at home and suddenly decide she wants you back because you’re now fighting for the M when you maybe didn’t during the M? In Australia we have a saying ‘leaving the porch light on for Harold Holt ‘. You need to turn the light off til shes ready for you to flick it on mate.
We weren't fighting during the M. The fighting only happened after she found out about my addiction and separated. Recently things have been calm. She has accepted she wants out - I got ILYBNILWY.
So by "turning the porch light off" as you say, you mean I should completely detach, imagine that 'I'm done' and then see how she reacts to that?
I've drafted:
"I just thought it would be a nice gesture. It was not deliberate. I can see how you would be affected by it though. I didn't intend to upset you."
Good. I would have left the last part off, when you are validating you don't want to tell someone what your "intent" was or wasn't because by doing so you are telling them they have misinterpreted, and that their feelings and their reaction are wrong. So keep that in mind in the future.
I get this response before leaving for work this morning:
"I get that it was a nice gesture and it would have taken a lot of work. I was just hard to watch. I am sorry I came across as harsh."
This is proof that validating works! I didn't apologise for the gift, but she said sorry for her reaction.
Great!
This is the most frustrating thing. She KNOWS it's a lot to lose, yet she is prepared to chuck it all away, and i believe a big reason for this is her pride. I'm sure she doesn't want to go back on her word because she will have boasted to all her friends "well I've served him the papers now." and they'll have said, "You go girl! You show him!" She will fear looking weak to them. She is a people pleaser.
Could be. There was a WAS that used to post here that said her biggest fear in reconciling was that she had to go back to everyone and explain to them why the man whose name she had been dragging through the mud for the previous year wasn't so bad after all. She said it was almost enough to prevent her from reconciling (she did eventually recon with him). Stubborn pride can be a deal-killer. But at the end of the day there's nothing you can do about it. My attitude is that if she's too "proud" to reconcile then that's not someone you want to be with. If her pride is more important to her than you are then that should tell you something.
I've read elsewhere that I need her to SEE that I'm going along with what she wants. I've not told her I've responded. I understand she'll get an email or letter about it anyway. I won't tell her unless she asks.
Good.
What are everyone's thoughts on the house sale - should I assist when she asks?
Well house sales are very complicated matters and typically it can't be done without both parties participating. The DB'ing rule of thumb is don't take care of things yourself, but don't do anything to obstruct either. So let her do the "heavy lifting" but if she needs something from you then provide it.
AS Thank you for your reply.
I would have left the last part off, when you are validating you don't want to tell someone what your "intent" was or wasn't because by doing so you are telling them they have misinterpreted, and that their feelings and their reaction are wrong.
Yes I thought that as soon as I posted this response in the thread! Eventually I did leave that last bit off. I simply ended it with:
"I can see how you would be affected by it though. I will keep that in mind." That helped massively.
My attitude is that if she's too "proud" to reconcile then that's not someone you want to be with. If her pride is more important to her than you are then that should tell you something.
That's certainly something to think about. She's said "I'd always choose my family over a partner. Any day."
What I've found unattractive about her recently is the sudden change in mood, simply cutting off the M. I think she's very upset inside about deciding to end things between us, but I'm just frustrated at her refusal to seek IC for herself. She definitely needs to speak to a professional about everything and is just thinking that a couple of long phonecalls with her mum & sister plus some girly nights in at a mate's house will be all she needs.
I'm seeing my IC this evening. She has told me she has contacts near where my W is if she wishes to get IC for herself. Should I give my W those contact details - maybe a few weeks down the line?
Just found out that I passed my last accountancy exam this afternoon.
I can put a few more letters after my name, and hopefully will get a pay rise in October (hopefully!).
I'm going to do some more exams in 2020 to get further up the ladder. I want to be chartered before I'm 40, so I'm on the right path definitely.
Really good to have some positive news. Definitely a real GAL moment here.
Congratulations Dan!!! Good luck in getting the pay raise! (((HUGS)))
Haha thanks! I'm hoping it's soon
It's been a real nice bit of news. I am so glad it's done. I'm sad that my W isn't here to celebrate with me though.
I'm going to put it on FB that I've passed as my other friends would like to hear the news.
I don't really use FB much anymore, but at least W will get to hear about it indirectly - I'm not going out of my way at all to tell her.
Had a really good IC session this evening. My homework is to list 'incorrect beliefs' I've had about myself, not just in M but in general - and we'll tackle them one by one. I made some notes from listening to NMMNG so that will be a good place to start.
My IC said the positives of passing my exams and recent general GALing are really having a good effect. Haven't had any relapses into addiction at all, and also the 'craving' is much, much weaker. I'm beating it!
Just a shame my W isn't there to see the progress.
Have to respond to her about estate agents and selling the house soon. I am still waiting for one of them to confimr some fees (why can't they just immediately provide me with an accurate list?!).
I want to just send them to her, so she can pick one to use. She's the one who wants to sell. I am not happy that she's making me choose the estate agent when I don't even want the house to be sold at all.
Part of me wants to GAL and be so positive that she sees what she's left behind. Rest assured readers, my main goal is to better ME and MY LIFE first. That's my priority.
Hey Dan, question for you but no need to answer here - is this an "addiction" or just "typical" behavior? Does it interfere with your work, other parts of your life? Reason I ask is that I'm a bit worried that you may be trying to go too far, that a Victoria's Secret add may "compromise" you in the future. If you don't want to look at porn, great. But if you are a fully-functioning person who enjoys porn and is changing only because this is what your W would want, well, I fear that there is a risk of relapse in the future - the more you try to stop thinking about something the harder it is (e.g. try for the next 60 seconds to not think about elephants... good luck). And if you get your W back and in three years you look at a pic or rewatch some scene of an R rated movie, is she back out? All I'm saying is, make sure that you are true to yourself.
Re: house sale, I went the route of not obstructing but also not helping. In my sitch, I was the bad guy (cheater) but had spent a year making significant changes so, while I felt compelled to atone for my sins by helping her leave, folks here convinced me that I was doing her work for her. I gravitated toward letting her run things, saying that this was her "project" and I would help when she asked (rather than demanded) and when I felt reasonable (e.g. would not compromise my work) but I would not drive. At the same time, like you, I was GALing and moving my life forward (finding a new place to live, planning vacations, etc.). I'll be honest - I'm 4-6 weeks away from my D being finalized so I can't say that my approach is the one to follow. However, by the time she announced, it was already over, and she'd made the decision long before. She betrayed me in that regard. Which is part of the reason...
I have to wonder what else is your W thinking? Not that you know, not that you can ask, but boy, for a first offense to jump to D? Don't get me wrong, I understand the desire to make things right, but her response seems disproportionate to the offense, especially if you are seeking to right the "wrong".
In short, I don't see there as being any opportunity for you to do right in her eyes. Whether you help her or not she has fired you, pack your stuff, clear your desk, turn your badge in. And now she wants you to work an extra shift or two to get through the busy season. Not sure that's reasonable...
Thanks for your reply crdcheck.
is this an "addiction" or just "typical" behavior? Does it interfere with your work, other parts of your life?
I never looked at work at all. It was generally when I was alone in the house, but it got to the stage when I'd look in secret even when W was around too. E.g. we would each be sitting on one of our sofas one evening. I'd have my iPad close by; initially I'd be innocently looking at things for the house like flooring etc., and showing her, or emailing or checking FB. Then I'd feel compelling to message one of the women. Just a message, simply to get the anticipation of the buzz of a response from them.
Usually whenever my W left for the gym, I'd always say "what time are you back?" Classic. I'd look then. Sometimes if she was away visiting family for a few days (if I couldn't get time off work), I'd spend hours looking online. I was getting tired of it, so I knew it was a problem. I didn't have the courage at the time to admit it to ANYBODY or seek help myself. I was too proud to get therapy. Now, my IC has pointed out, that so many people know, the shame of it has somewhat dissipated because I'm not keeping it secret anymore. That's a good thing.
I need to change for myself - I was relying on it too much as escapism from when I was feeling stressed or berating myself about things (NGS). I believe I will not relapse back to the extent I was using previously. I haven't looked in nearly 4 months. And you know what? I feel better, and don't wonder what I'm missing out on at all.
Re: house sale, I went the route of not obstructing but also not helping. I gravitated toward letting her run things, saying that this was her "project" and I would help when she asked (rather than demanded) and when I felt reasonable (e.g. would not compromise my work) but I would not drive.
Yes I am definitely leaning towards this. I have been very cooperative. I was asked to organise 2 estate agent visits which I did. I gave a 3rd one my W's number so she had to arrange a viewing with them herself. My W is now pushing ME to decide which agent to go with. I'm going to get all the fees and summarise them in a spreadsheet, and then send it to her, basically saying, "you choose, it's your decision to sell."
I have to wonder what else is your W thinking? Not that you know, not that you can ask, but boy, for a first offense to jump to D? Don't get me wrong, I understand the desire to make things right, but her response seems disproportionate to the offense, especially if you are seeking to right the "wrong".
I have no idea what she is thinking. She is being led by family and friends and work colleagues. I know that. She is a people pleaser and doesn't want to go against others' well meaning advice.
It is not the first offense. She caught me 'looking' on my phone twice in 2017. Found some pictures. That was it. I wasn't messaging any women back then. I promised that there was nothing further that she needed to know about. Yes I lied to her. But that's NGS - avoiding your own flaws. I didn't want her to find everything out. Her main drive for D is the length of time I kept it hidden from her (8 years), the fact that I had effectively 'maintained' an online presence on one of the websites (I had a profile that I updated regularly), and of course uploading a pic of SIL in a private chat.
Yes I am seeking to right the wrongs I've made. I am sad that she is just stubbornly pushing through. Doesn't even seem bothered. I am detaching and not reaching out. I am missing her but in all honesty, am not thinking about her 24/7 as I was when this whole thing exploded in May. My IC said that if she runs into issues because of her new choice of living arrangements (living with her brother and his W in their tiny 2 bed house - no way can she run her businesses from there - plus she's had to take on a load of extra teaching work she really doesn't want to do), that is HER problem now, not ours as a couple.
Additional:
I'm mindful that of course as the house eventually goes up for sale, she and I will need to meet again to sort things out, and also for me to collect all my stuff from the house.
Do I need to point out the following at all, whether it be in a blunt or validating manner:
- Her choice to walk away from M not mine
- Sad that she didn't want to work things out and dismiss IC herself
- I'd have really tried to prove my worth to her if she wanted to reconcile
- Her choice to give up our life together, not mine
- Her choice to financially affect both our lives
I don't want to be passive aggressive (I am of course trying to avoid NGS now) but do I need to say any of the above to her at all?
Or should I simply GAL, completely detach, be a bit aloof, be positive and happy about MY life and where I am, and not look like I'm very sad and upset that my selfishness has caused me to lose my best friend and a wonderful woman, however flawed she may be?
I've always thought John Cusack would be ideal to play me in the imaginary film about my life (High Fidelity is one of my fave films and I love his character in it).
Do I need to point out the following at all, whether it be in a blunt or validating manner:
- Her choice to walk away from M not mine
- Sad that she didn't want to work things out and dismiss IC herself
- I'd have really tried to prove my worth to her if she wanted to reconcile
- Her choice to give up our life together, not mine
- Her choice to financially affect both our lives
Short answer- no. Long answer- no, no, no, no and no
She knows all of this already. Telling her will just make you look desperate/ needy and make her inclined to BD you all over again.
Or should I simply GAL, completely detach, be a bit aloof, be positive and happy about MY life and where I am, and not look like I'm very sad and upset that my selfishness has caused me to lose my best friend and a wonderful woman, however flawed she may be?
Yes!
Agree completely with AS and I will add that I have had the exact. same. feelings as you. Literally word for word. So, you aren't alone and that's a natural feeling.
The question I ask myself is, what do I expect to get out of this? Is it to make me feel better? Do I think W will come back? Your answer may be different from mine but for me it was bitterness, like, "hey, everything from here on out is your fault so don't come crying to me" because, let's face it, those words and any other words you may have will not make your W come back, period.
I know that I have not yet succeeded with my bid to R but I can tell you with 100% certainty that it's actions, not words, that will attract her. So, stop with the words, save them for someone who will really listen.
Don't give in!!!
Thanks AS - that was a quick resolution to that query!
I can tell you with 100% certainty that it's actions, not words, that will attract her. So, stop with the words, save them for someone who will really listen.
Don't give in!!!
Great advice, thank you. I am certainly trying this. I am not checking my phone all the time to see if she's messaged. When this all started in May I used to get really nervous when I saw she'd text me, now when she does I don't. I am definitely feeling like I'm detaching.
My actions currently are focussed on exercise, celebrating passing my exams (my parents have said they'll buy me a couple of things I've had my eye on for a few weeks as a well done), making a bit of money selling stuff on Ebay, keeping myself attractive (haircut every 4 weeks, grooming routine and sticking to it, wearing my expensive cologne to work), and enjoying simple things like feeling the breeze, or watching the birds in my parents' back garden every morning as I have my breakfast.
There are times recently when I feel *good* about life.
I now have all the info and fees from 3 estate agents.
I've summarised them together so I can see what the total cost is of selling the house and, roughly, what myself and W would each get from the proceeds. Massive differences I can tell you!
I am thinking of sending this summary to her and essentially telling her to choose. It is her decision to D and sell the house. I'd really appreciate advice on what would be the best way of phrasing this.
I don't want to just say "Here are all the numbers and options. You choose. This is your thing - you know I don't want to sell the house." That to me comes across as passive-aggressive and unhelpful. I've helped her in collating the info. I don't want to choose who sells our lovely home.
Any thoughts would be really welcome, thank you!
Aside - Thank you for everyone who has commented and posted on my thread. All of your thoughts have been enormously helpful. I'm sad I didn't discover this board very early on in my situation. I really am grateful for all your input.
Hi W. Here’s a list of agents and respective fees I’ve collated. Please select one from the list. My choice is agent X. Look forward to hearing from you asap. Regds for now, Dan 35
Dan, anything else in my view is weak and pressure. You’ll look like a goose if you keep repeating you don’t want to sell the house. Either stall that or Refinance and pay her out if you want to keep it. See a lawyer first though.
Negotiate with the agent to reduce commission
What you doing for gal? I’ve gone to a hotel for dinner by myself. I’m having 500gr rib eye steak with all the trimmings. F—k sitting home alone on a Saturday night!
Good luck mate
OK yes that's short and sweet isn't it.
Not sure what the re-mortgaging process involves. We do have a mortgage broker so I could speak to her about it potentially ??
For GAL - see further up the thread. Lots of things (for me anyway).
Yes dan see your broker to check borrowing capacity. Call bank to see if break fee for paying the mortgage out early.See a lawyer about your family law property settlement entitlements. Is home and mortgage in joint names? If transfer of ownership needed Your lawyer will tell you if there are family law waivers for transfer. Not sure for uk but suspect similar to oz. check with a lawyer anyway.
Check my terminology as uk could be different
Got a text from W just now thanking me for doing some work for her.
Before this all kicked off I arranged some music for a youth group she directs - she struggles finding repertoire for them as it's an odd mix of instruments, so I've helped out by doing things for her. I did one piece ages ago in Feb/March (so before everything exploded!) and she texted me now to say "Thank you for the arrangement, we started looking at it this week - the kids really loved it!"
Thought it was interesting that she took the time to send it. Not a lot of effort to do it I know, but she didn't have to. It's quite unrelated to everything so thought it odd that amidst everyting happening she'd thank me for that.
I will wait until this evening to reply - or should I just ignore it?
I'll send the estate agent summary by email and won't tell her I've done it. I'm thinking "Detach" at all possible
Wait a few hours then reply with ‘no worries ‘ or whatever the uk equivalent is, or just a thumb up emoji is my current go to. Better yet, say nothing.
I've decided I will not reply. I have to stop thinking of her expectantly waiting for a "thanks" text from me. She won't be doing that. Nor will she be texting later asking "why are you ignoring me?" - I assume she won't do that anyway!
She hasn't chased for the house stuff, so I'm going to wait on that too til at least after the weekend.
I've had a fairly relaxed day - exercise in the morning, got the car washed, worked on some hobby stuff, watched some funny YouTube vids, and then I discovered there was a little food festival going on in town so went to that. Had some delicious bao steamed buns and bought some nice garlic oil. I then cooked for my parents - got good feedback from the dinner!
I have thought about W a little. Nothing sad, just about her as a person really. I haven't thought about the house though.
She picked 3 agents. You pick the one you like. If you don't like any of the three then you pick three new ones you like, she picks one.
This is how the lawyers do it.
Simple negotiation. If you need mediation, then you find three, give her the contact info, she picks one.
Don't make this complicated.
Easier when you get along. Keep adding new options, until you both find one that works for both of you. Do you want to go get pizza with me? Dinner with you sounds good, I would prefer burgers. I had burgers last night, how about tacos? Sounds great. Perfect.
Neither of us are using lawyers. In the UK you don't actually need to use any unless one of you contests/fights for a significant reason (e.g. lots of money involved, or kids). The whole process can be done behind the scenes - you don't even have to attend court.
I don't want to pick any of these agents. As I said, her choice to sell up and split.
Journal
Nice weekend overall.
Saw my sister on Sunday - we went ot a food festival and had a lovely afternoon walking the dog round town.
Have been working on a big music arrangement project (not paid, just doing something as part of GAL) and have finished it this evening.
Have not heard from W at all apart from text Saturday morning thanking me for the work I did for her some months ago (see previous page in this thread). Hasn't chased me to provide house sale info yet.
I haven't really thought about her as much as I used to, to be honest. I do feel like I'm carrying less emotional weight around now. It is a very strange situation. I haven't forgotten my M of course, but I can't sit in a dark room wallowing in self-pity. I have to GAL!
Got a few nights out planned next week, including a work night out on Thursday and seeing best mate from school on Wednesday.
I miss her sometimes, but I'm working on improving me. Doing things for me. These days I'm thinking "I am not a bad man. I lost my way and didn't ask for assistance. I am getting that assistance now. I am a good person. I am good relationship material. If my W wants to fire me as H, and not try to reconcile, then it is her loss."
So overall, things are going well really, considering!!
Journal
So overall, things are going well really, considering!!
Good stuff Dan
Update
Got a text from W today:
"There are some important looking letters that have arrived for you. Should we maybe have a chat later or meet up? We really need to sort putting the house on the market ASAP. Apparently houses don't sell past October, so this is the time to do it really. I'm anxious to not live on my own anymore, it's very lonely."
I kind of think, "well that was YOUR decision to live alone, and YOUR decision to sell and YOUR decision to get a D!"
Have no idea how to respond to this. Help!
This is what I’d say Dan
Thanks W I appreciate you’re anxious to move forward with selling the house. I’m quite jammed with other commitments though so I’m happy to leave the organisation of listing in your hands. My preferred agent is x. Let X recommend a listing price that we can agree on. Keep me posted please. I’ll then communicate with our agent directly once one has been appointed.
Please Leave my mail at xyz and I’ll collect thanks for letting me know. Cheers d35
I do at some point need to go to the house to collect other items anyway as i need them for work.
Should I email her my agents' summary of overall costs, then suggest we meet at the weekend to go through stuff?
I'm a bit nervous about how to respond to be honest. I assume I should make it clear that she should take the lead with selling - or is that not wise? I have a preferred agent.
I hate the thought of losing our beautiful house. I don't want to lose it.
Shall I mention about her living alone being her choice? There are so many things I want to say but think I shouldn't!
Shall I say "I'm very busy this week - so maybe email might be quicker/easier than meeting face to face." ?
Or should I meet face to face to appear confident and happy and in a 'GAL' mood?
Hey mate. I wouldn’t say anything about all this being because of her choice. If you have to I used to use ‘this is the reality of your decision ‘. That’s as far as I could push back with my XW as she could be an absolute monster. It all depends how hard hearted your w is
Say you’ll meet her directly later this week to discuss. That’ll buy you time to think and compose yourself. Dress nice, slim fit clothes, new cologne etc and pump iron in the meantime!
When you meet up buy more time by saying you’re looking at refinancing house over to you and your enquiries are taking longer than you expected.
Dunno your role dynamic during the M. Did you do the organisation and carrying out of these types of major issues?
I f I were a betting man, I'd be willing to put up a few quid on the idea, that your W is polishing someone else's bishop. And is using your "transgression" to justify the divorce and to shame you into giving in to all her demands.
Sorry to be blunt, but I call it as I see it.
I ALWAYS sorted out the money as far as the house was concerned. She has a fear of 'ringing them up' as she jokingly said - she hates calling up any major companies - banks, insurance, tax office, anything important.
I would always have to organise the bills, took the meter readings, sorted out direct debit payments, spoke to the mortgage provider when necessary, gave her tax advice, looked at energy bills and switched if needed, added up what we spent each month then told her what she owed.
Anything 'important' or major relating to finance was my job.
This is why I'm thinking pushing this back to her. It's HER choice so she should lead on it.
OK I'll suggest this weekend then. I don't want to meet in the week.
I will email over the cost summary later today.
Sound good?
I really don't think I could afford to take on the house myself. The other thing is that it's *nowhere* near my work or family - 40-45miles - so whilst I keep it, I'll be living on my own like she is.
Not that bothersome for me, but I'll be a way from family/friends.
I f I were a betting man, I'd be willing to put up a few quid on the idea, that your W is polishing someone else's bishop. And is using your "transgression" to justify the divorce and to shame you into giving in to all her demands.
Sorry to be blunt, but I call it as I see it.
I'm not so sure. She is so adamant that she would never cheat, full stop. However she did say once, "how should we sort this out? Should I cheat on someone?!" Not sure if she was joking. Anyway, it'd be a totally different scenario, seeing as my infidelity is entirely online (no that being only online justifies it and makes it less hurtful to her, I get that).
I don't think she's seeing someone else. She would say "If you met someone else and wanted to be with them, I'd rather you told me instead of keeping it from me." Even when this didn't happen, she'd bring it up when things were fine between us, before and after marriage. I always thought that was weird. She definitely has insecurity issues that an IC should be addressing, but as I say, she refuses to take it.
Yes mate just tell her you’ll meet up and do whats needed to buy time. Go through the motions with the broker. Heck go through several! If you know the answer already that’s ok as you’re buying time. That’s what you want isn’t it?
Yes let her lead. You’re too busy with your new work project!
I f I were a betting man, I'd be willing to put up a few quid on the idea, that your W is polishing someone else's bishop. And is using your "transgression" to justify the divorce and to shame you into giving in to all her demands.
Sorry to be blunt, but I call it as I see it.
I'm not so sure. She is so adamant that she would never cheat, full stop. However she did say once, "how should we sort this out? Should I cheat on someone?!" Not sure if she was joking. Anyway, it'd be a totally different scenario, seeing as my infidelity is entirely online (no that being only online justifies it and makes it less hurtful to her, I get that).
I don't think she's seeing someone else. She would say "If you met someone else and wanted to be with them, I'd rather you told me instead of keeping it from me." Even when this didn't happen, she'd bring it up when things were fine between us, before and after marriage. I always thought that was weird. She definitely has insecurity issues that an IC should be addressing, but as I say, she refuses to take it.
The timing, the 3 week silence and the unusual sex drive right before the split up is a tell tale sign for me.
One other thing is a certainty also: No amount of pleading, ass kissing, shoe lickin', groveling puppy eyed behavior will bring her back. You've apologized enough. Even if she had a miraculous change of heart and decides to come back, would you be willing to live the rest of your life with your W dangling your "transgression" over your head the whole time?
You have to forgive yourself. Yes you F'd up, so what. We all f'u from time to time. On the scale of f'ups (the scale going from 1 (insignificant) to 10 (deffo marriage wrecker)), your transgression measures 2, maybe 3 on the $hitometer. On the end of the day, if your wife wants out, you have to let her go. If she decides to come back, you have a chance then, but if she decides to stay away, she was never your to begin with...
Drafted this (email):
"Here is a summary of the 3 agents and their prices, based on 4 different prices increasing by £5k each time. (attachment)
I appreciate that you are anxious to move forward with selling our house, so I am therefore happy to leave the organisation of getting it on sale in your hands especially since you are at the house more than me.
My preference is {name of agent} as we will each end up with over £1,000 more compared to the other two.
I am also waiting for {bank name} to contact me, as we may have to get one of their own valuers to look at the house instead of the agents, which will cost more money.
I am busy during the week but free at the weekend. Let's meet up Sunday afternoon, and I can collect the mail also.
Thanks - glad the arrangement* went down well."
*(this is the bit of work I posted to her that she thanked me for at the weekend)
I think this is ok - I'm not angry, don't think there's any passive-aggressive styuff in there, and I'm being neutral and unconfrontational.
VAPO - I forgave myself a while ago. I am not a bad man. I messed up and I'm taking care of my issues. At this stage I'm thinking, it's her loss. My parents believe that she will regret reacting to this extent, but won't ever admit it as she's too proud.
Well our mortgage broker is going to call me later this afternoon and go through a few figures to see if I can actually afford the house on my own.
Have sent the email. I removed a few lines, and didn't say "glad the arrangement went well." I just said "thanks for letting me know about the mail." and then put my name.
I do still want to be a lighthouse for my W. Is the best way to do this just to appear happy and content, and show her that I am not a horrible person after all?
Well our mortgage broker is going to call me later this afternoon and go through a few figures to see if I can actually afford the house on my own.
Have sent the email. I removed a few lines, and didn't say "glad the arrangement went well." I just said "thanks for letting me know about the mail." and then put my name.
I do still want to be a lighthouse for my W. Is the best way to do this just to appear happy and content, and show her that I am not a horrible person after all?
Life is too precious and short to spend it wondering what other people think. As the old saying goes: "Opinions are like a$$holes, everybody's got one."
You have to quit pondering what will make your W turn towards you. A strong confidant man will do that. And not somebody wishy washy pussy footing around. You cannot nice your W back. No amount of hoovering, cleaning, laundry work will say to her that's my man. There is no silver bullet, magic word that will reset your situation.
Just pour yourself a nice tall glass of STFU juice and focus on yourself, your growth and development. Quit feeling sorry for yourself and get your a$$ in gear.
Wow- tough!
I can't do anything in the house for her, since I haven't lived there for a few months now!
I am focussing on me. I am sorting things - it is hard but now I find I have only bad moments rather than whole bad days. My view now is it is her loss! I was great for her; I was really great for her. Yes, I messed up. But I'm a good person and I'm happy thinking that about myself.
That's good. Sounds like you followed DS9's excellent suggestions.
My parents believe that she will regret reacting to this extent, but won't ever admit it as she's too proud.
There's always a lot of mind-reading to go around after BD. Everyone engages in it- you, her, your parents, her parents, friends, family, strangers, the mailman. None of it matters a whit.
Thanks for the advice here. I've sent it. I haven't told her I've sent it.
My broker has said that I am not able to afford the house by myself - my salary would have to almost double! Might happen when I'm 50 but not at 36, so selling is the only option.
There is another £500 charge that I need ot inform W about. I'll just do that when I see her. I thought I took the lead in saying "let's meet Sunday", not options, just that day and that's it. I've said I'm busy. I won't give her any further info.
I am feeling a little better today. I'm now just saying to myself 'her loss' if I feel sad. I was perfect for her frankly. I won't tell her that; just hoping that she will realise that herself in time. When I see her on Sunday I'm going to look as attractive as possible and give off a lot of positivity.
Good things:
Passed exams, therefore pay rise on the cards soon
Therapist says I've made such good progress I don't have to see them weekly
Saving money when possible
Exercising and eating well
Walking regularly
Speaking to family and friends more frequently
Enjoying hobbies and going out alone to events
Don't feel shameful anymore about what I did - just remorse but am channelling that into really addressing my issues and sorting things out
Not feeling like I'm a failure
I am feeling happier when I look in the mirror
Drafted this (email):
"Here is a summary of the 3 agents and their prices, based on 4 different prices increasing by £5k each time. (attachment)
I appreciate that you are anxious to move forward with selling our house, so I am therefore happy to leave the organisation of getting it on sale in your hands especially since you are at the house more than me.
My preference is {name of agent} as we will each end up with over £1,000 more compared to the other two.
I am also waiting for {bank name} to contact me, as we may have to get one of their own valuers to look at the house instead of the agents, which will cost more money.
I am busy during the week but free at the weekend. Let's meet up Sunday afternoon, and I can collect the mail also.
Thanks - glad the arrangement* went down well."
Less is always better. You want to avoid meeting face to face like the plague. You are a busy guy.
Ask her when is a good time to pick up the mail. Quickly swing by and pick it up. When you do, you are late getting someplace important. You are also dressed well and smell good and your car is clean and you look happy and are excited to get to wherever you are going and you do not tell her.....