Link to Part 1:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2841771Link to Part 2:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2842502Link to Part 3:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2845184Link to Part 4:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2850893Link to Part 5:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2857721Summary to date:
W was unhappy in 2018 and probably a few years earlier about her lack of career advancement, responsibilities of being a mother and wife, and lack of connection in our MR. She became involved in an EA with a co-worker (OM1) in August. She was going to an IC without my knowledge and came to the determination that I was the cause of her unhappiness. BD and IHS in November. I made all of the classic mistakes of begging, pleading, doing all the chores (super husband), etc. She became obsessed with her physical appearance. Spending money on facial treatments, anti-aging creams, manicures, pedicures, etc. EA with OM1 became a PA. Then, she was seduced by a 25 year old pickup artist (OM2) at a downtown bar and had a PA a couple weeks later which evolved into a limerant relationship. W went deeply underground with her smartphone when I found out and confronted. W met another low-life (OM3) in March on an online dating app and is still in an ongoing PA with him while cycling back to OM2 as desired. She has experienced the highest of highs when OM contacts her and the lowest of lows when ignored. She was full blown GGW and cycling between at least 5 OM. Her current favorites are OM2 and OM3. W has distanced herself from anyone of strong moral character and primarily interacts with a recently divorced woman that became her BFF last year. W bought her own house and moved out in early April. We have arranged 50/50 custody of our kids, S8 and D5, rotating every few days.
I would characterize myself as experiencing PTSD symptoms after BD/PA discovery for about 4 months. Way too much pursuit, pressure, and R talk. I became obsessed with snooping and trying to identify and over-analyze everything that went wrong in our MR that led us to this state. In doing so, I pushed her farther and farther away. I've heard just about every WW catch phrase from her along with way. She has re-written our MR history and focuses on all the negatives. I've been doing a much better job of GAL and detaching since late February. Contact has been like a business relationship, mostly limited to co-parenting and logistics. I confronted her in early May about no longer living in an open marriage. Her response was basically laughter and she said if you want a divorce, then she's all for it. That night she sent me an email requesting that I gather all of my financial records and decide what items I want to keep by the end of May. She hasn't mentioned it since but she met with a L at the end of August to seemingly start the process.
The EAs/PAs with multiple OM continue. When we do interact, she generally treats me nice. I am securely in the friend zone as I’ve allowed her to cake eat this entire time with her horse at our marital home. I am living in limbo which [censored], but I’m having a great time with my kids when they are with me. Also getting out doing activities I enjoy and spending time with friends.
At the end of July, I was ready to confront her on the A’s and file for D. Then, the H of a good friend of hers died in a motorcycle accident. This pushed my W into a state of deep reflection and for about 3 days I could see the girl I used to be married to. Unfortunately, that was short lived and she quickly reverted back to her WW lifestyle and resumed contact with OM3 along with OM2 occasionally. At that time, I asked her to attend Retrouvaille to say I tried everything and shockingly she said yes. However, she recently inadvertently sent me a text about OM3 that was intended for divorced BFF. I went full NC for 3 days after the text. Then things pretty much blew up again on a call about the NC where I said as long as she’s in contact with OM I need to limit contact with her as it only relates to the kids.
W is conflicted by guilt she feels from friends and family that think what she’s doing is wrong and her feelings of what she wants for herself. I’m sensing my MR is coming to and end in the next month or so with one of us filing for D.
Curtis. Isn't it amazing how they refuse to take accountability or responsibility for the consequences and outcomes due to their decisions and actions? She has had to distance herself from family and friends of moral standards that are judging her and slut shaming her for her actions. She even says herself, despite her clearly knowing that you know that there are 3 other men, she attempts to falsely and arrogantly justify her actions, and falsely socially lift herself up on a social pedestal thus contradicting herself by saying "There are not other men, don't make me out to be a f'in whore." OM3 is giving her parenting advice, is treating her poorly, and she is even rebelling to some degree against him. (Most likely for him giving her unsolicited advise on parenting, which feels like another form of control to her.) But is still considering him an option, even though she contradicts herself that it won't work because he is two hours away. Based off her divorced BFF H and BFF's experience and validation of seeing herself, her feelings, and circumstances in her BFF, she is comparing him to you as being controlling because you set clear, good and healthy boundaries as well as responsibility since she fired you as her H as far as the Horse and the property is concerned.
IHC, exactly, you hit the nail on the head. Could not have said any of this better myself. Justification of her WW behavior, gaslighting/lies to me, trying to maintain good standing in social opinion, upset with OM3 for giving parenting advice when he has never met our kids, and still blaming me for most everything that isn’t going the way she likes in life. It’s appalling and pure selfishness.
Her opinion of your changes is again re-writing of marital history, and after so many years of "her knowing you, your behaviors, and habits" she is convinced that your attempts to change, or lack of change is only to manipulate them back into a relationship or M. They are convinced because of their experiences over long periods of time and past events. Right, wrong, good, bad, or indifferent. The irony of this is that they themselves do not realize that they have changed too. They took their vows based on their feelings on their wedding day, and not on actual principles or values.
They can’t consider the possibility that the LBS finally woke up when thrown into crisis at BD. Finally started listening and becoming self-aware of our own shortcomings prompting a lasting desire to permanently change for ourselves and for the best interest of our partner. It seems the WW mindset also believes that feelings in this moment are and forever will be. They refuse to consider the possibility that positive feelings could return for the LBS. Even though they existed previously, it violates their conclusion to consider that those feelings could return if they choose to love.
They have bought the narrative from validation from outside sources and influences, such as family members, books, divorced BFF, IC, D attorney, etc. They seek people similar to how they ae currently feeling. Validation I've noticed, although I am poor at it, I've realized something about it. It coincides with confidence. Confidence of the WAW to leave the M based on their own self worth, and their worth of the opinion of their social peers, (which is underlyingly and probably more important to them then then the opinion of themselves.) They have this confidence to leave because they are unhappy, and don't want to feel or be controlled, submissive, or be obedient to their husband, hence the term "Wayward" They have no respect for you because of your behaviors, but also if you look carefully to their actions and not their words, they have no respect or worth for themselves. (The same goes for us too.) I can confidently state this as a solid opinion because everyone seems to be looking for their happiness and purpose outside of themselves, rather than within. Yes we all want freedom, experiences, novelty, purpose, and goal achievements. But unless we do the work and they as well on ourselves we will all keep repeating the same patterns in our future relationships.
They seek reassurance from sources that boost their confidence that they are making the right decisions, without really examining the sources, their morals, principles, or values. Validation without the solid principles or morals can lead someone astray in the long term. Validation is a two way street I've noticed that needs to be handled delicately. You want to in a sense acknowledge their feelings without coming across as disingenuous, but not actually cement their feelings as fact, with you assuming the accountability and responsibility of their feelings for why they think you did XY and Z wrong from past experiences. By all means take accountability to correct those things as your 180's but do not let your WW make you take the entire blame for the M failure. (Most likely they're going to take as little accountability as possible and hold you responsible for the failure because it's all about them right now, playing victim status to the M while at the same time justifying their irresponsible behavior.)
They're going to repeat these mistakes over and over again looking for confidence in another person in a relationship, slowly undermine the other person's confidence in the R, and the other person, and then start taking them apart once the honeymoon phase ends, never being satisfied and then they are going to go to the next person, and the next person and so on.
Yes, the enablers and sympathizers feed their arrogance and reinforce that they are making the right decisions to find happiness for themselves. My W had excellent morals, much better than mine up until the last year. I suppose they just weren’t strong enough and once they didn’t align with her actions and submission to temptation and lust, they were rapidly discarded. I do feel sorry for her in this regard. I anticipate she will have deep shame and regret in the future over this period of her life when she finally matures emotionally and is able to cope with the reality of her life.
The next time you have a discussion with WW about anything other than logistics or kids, D procedure, or just anything casual in passing, Especially if its about OM1, OM2 or OM3 SHUT IT DOWN, HANGUP OR WALK AWAY. You are not her therapist, and it is well past the point of no return have you listening to her other than for a business transaction, because that's all she used to treating you as is a business transaction between the division of all your stuff, the divorce papers, and the kids. I think you're doing a hell of a job though putting things into action as far as making changes, a lot better than I am. You are doing a good job. Just make sure to keep your self-respect intact.
I’m with you on this. I’ve heard enough lies. Going dark as possible with kids is my goal. We’ll see how long I can keep it up.
Interesting that with OM3 she can't have her way with and he pisses her off and yet she's sleeping with him and then there is her husband and she says "jump" and he says "how high" and she has no respect or attraction to him.
Yeah, I see the push-pull, treat them like garbage, ignore, keep them wanting more attraction techniques at the start of a relationship. That is not sustainable in a long-term MR, IMO. That behavior needs to be replaced with a deeper love and intimacy that can withstand decades of ups and downs.
I do agree that the LBH can’t put the WW on a pedestal and bend over backwards to her requests. That will not earn her respect. Most words and actions are received negatively by the WW during an active affair. Better to back off, stop pursuit, and maintain self-respect than to chase a cheater.
Curt,
You best post yet. Your last post should be how you interact with you WW, when you have too. Short and to the point. No fluff, buff, or huff.
Onward and upward
C,
What are your plans for the horse? You told her you were done taking care of it.
WW went to OM3’s place again today.
I’m done. I am going to confront her. I am no longer waiting for her in limbo.
My script is ready and I have some paperwork to deliver to her on dividing assets.
I have reached the point where I need to stand up for what I believe is right. I will no longer remain in a MR that is defiled.
We will both live with the consequences. My kids will know I fought for her, but now it’s time for me to respect myself.
C,
Forget the script and just have her served or start to DB. These grandiose speeches/scripts never work.
As we told you dozens of times. Actions not words.
What LH says: ACTIONS
Stop snooping. Get out of that road. Is the road to nowhere (Talking Heads)
Just start DB. Get your respect back Curtis.
Stay strong there!
C,
you've never stopped snooping. You've never given her or yourself space. Don't confront her. Instead, let her go. You've had the death grip around her since day one. Let her go.
In her mind you aren't in a "MR". In the practical sense she is right. On paper you are right. Why not get rid of the horse and keep her out of your house and out of your life for the time being?
This confrontation is going to lead to further lack of respect.
This last post is pure emotion. I know you're hurting. I've been there. Sorry Curtis.
C,
you've never stopped snooping. You've never given her or yourself space. Don't confront her. Instead, let her go. You've had the death grip around her since day one. Let her go.
In her mind you aren't in a "MR". In the practical sense she is right. On paper you are right. Why not get rid of the horse and keep her out of your house and out of your life for the time being?
This confrontation is going to lead to further lack of respect.
This last post is pure emotion. I know you're hurting. I've been there. Sorry Curtis.
Ovr, you’re right, the post was made late last night after discovering she was with OM3 again. It was my emotional, impulsive response to being over this and no longer tolerating the disrespect of my MR. Living in limbo while she’s out gallivanting is tearing me apart. I know it’s because I’m snooping. If I stopped, then I wouldn’t feel this type of pain. My mind dwells so often on how I just want this all to be over.
Just yesterday I was contemplating why I was so disappointed when she inadvertently sent me the text about OM3. I came to a similar conclusion as you stated that she believes we are not in a MR. I was hurt when I received the text because I thought we were rebuilding trust and I was trying to give her the benefit of the doubt that the other R’s had ended when she agreed to attend Retrouvaille weekend. I now realize that I had an expectation and that her and I have two different realities.
It was an inexcusable way to go about it but I understand that she was done with me and done with the MR at BD and likely for a long time prior. I need to consider that she was emotionally D at BD, and that her reality was that we were D (paper MR only) and she was free to do what/who she wanted. My reality was that I’ve still considered us married this whole time. I need to come to grips with that and if I was in a new relationship with her or someone else, then I wouldn’t expect that person to disclose everything about their past, lovers, escapades, etc. Sure, those may come up at some point, but full disclosure up front would not be a requirement to start a new relationship.
What I really wanted to rebuild trust was confidence that the other R’s were over and a feeling of safety and security that they would never happen again. Not rehashing details about the past. I wanted it to be a time to move forward. I wanted to have more intimacy with her than we had before, so there wouldn’t need to be secrets and we could share our feelings, concerns, and expectations. I wanted us to be able to be vulnerable around each other and feel safe that we are not judging but rather supportive and understanding. My wants are a long way off and may never come to fruition.
I’m conflicted between confronting her and moving forward with D, giving her the choice to commit or initiate D, or continue NC. I have to say that NC is the least appealing to me right now. I much prefer a decision and movement in either direction.
C,
since she is married on paper, these are not R's she was in. Since at least one of them predated your separation and because you're married, they are indeed affairs. Don't validate them by calling them R's.
I’m conflicted between confronting her and moving forward with D, giving her the choice to commit or initiate D, or continue NC. I have to say that NC is the least appealing to me right now. I much prefer a decision and movement in either direction.
It's almost is you're saying you need something that many here have been saying you need: TIME & SPACE. How can you know what to do, how can you make this big decision based solely on emotion, without giving yourself time to think and heal and grow? How can you think and heal and grow without space from her? How can you get space from her when she comes over and tells you sob stories, feeds you breadcrumbs, and prances around on her horse?
I know you're thinking that it's a step in the wrong direction. But she doesn't care about you or how she hurts you, so you must protect yourself.
Plan some fun social events for Curtis this weekend. You need some time out with friends and no kids or W talk.
What LH says: ACTIONS
Just start DB. Get your respect back Curtis.
Neff, I’m failing to comprehend how I am getting respect back by waiting for her to file for D. I understand that I’m gaining some respect by going NC, removing myself from the equation, and not participating in a triangular relationship.
You are a role model for your kids. Honor them.
Wouldn't I be honoring my kids more by ending this farce of a MR and showing them it’s more important to respect yourself.
since she is married on paper, these are not R's she was in. Since at least one of them predated your separation and because you're married, they are indeed affairs. Don't validate them by calling them R's.
PAs with OM1, OM2, OM3 started before WW moved out in April. They are affairs. I wasn’t necessarily trying to validate them, but rather convey the WW belief system to justify why they feel these R’s (affairs) are acceptable while still legally married.
Plan some fun social events for Curtis this weekend. You need some time out with friends and no kids or W talk.
I’m taking S8 to a college football game this weekend. Large scale socialization. Then hurricane prep as there’s a chance I could be impacted. It will be interesting to see what she does with her horse.
C,
I think part of the problem is that you don’t understand DB. Wondering if you ever read the book? You can gain respect by not filing for D. Your number one problem is you let her treat you like a doormat. She comes to you when she wants something. Take care of horse, swim in pool, emotional support when friend dies. You read that as her softening when she’s just using you. DB says no snooping you snoop. DB say not pursuit you pursue. DB says no cake eating and you love stuffing down her throat. DB says actions not words you hang on every word she says.
DB is the way to go you should try it sometime.
What LH says: ACTIONS
Just start DB. Get your respect back Curtis.
Neff, I’m failing to comprehend how I am getting respect back by waiting for her to file for D. I understand that I’m gaining some respect by going NC, removing myself from the equation, and not participating in a triangular relationship.
You are a role model for your kids. Honor them.
Wouldn't I be honoring my kids more by ending this farce of a MR and showing them it’s more important to respect yourself.
Sure you would man...are you?
Face the future with no fear. Stand there for your kids.
As LH says, you don´t need to file to gain some respect back. You need to DB!
Do it man! Trust yourself!
(((Curtis)))
It was an inexcusable way to go about it but I understand that she was done with me and done with the MR at BD and likely for a long time prior. I need to consider that she was emotionally D at BD, and that her reality was that we were D (paper MR only) and she was free to do what/who she wanted. My reality was that I’ve still considered us married this whole time. I need to come to grips with that and if I was in a new relationship with her or someone else, then I wouldn’t expect that person to disclose everything about their past, lovers, escapades, etc.
Curtis, this is exactly right. Now I am not defending her or saying it's "right" that she thinks those things, I absolutely do not. It is extremely dishonorable and for people who hold honor in high regard it is repulsive to see someone behave this way. Nevertheless this is exactly how WW's think. They think the M is over at BD and that they are single and free to do what they want. If you think about her behavior since BD, you'll see it is consistent with this idea.
I’m conflicted between confronting her and moving forward with D, giving her the choice to commit or initiate D, or continue NC.
I will say what I will always say at times like this- if you're not sure then wait a few weeks or even months. Don't do anything until you are sure it's what you want. Regarding confronting, do it if you must but please understand it's unlikely to change anything because as mentioned above, she thinks she's single anyway. If you're going to confront then just tell her you know and leave it at that. No R talk, no waiting for her to explain, no explaining to her how you know or anything of the sort.
I have to say that NC is the least appealing to me right now. I much prefer a decision and movement in either direction.
That's because you want to gain control back. You feel you've lost control and that you need to do something drastic to take control back again. That's not true though, NC is a way of taking control of your life again. It's saying "I am going to do what I want to do and leave you to your mess and not let it affect me anymore." You should never, ever consider filing for D without a long period of NC (or minimal C).
That's because you want to gain control back. You feel you've lost control and that you need to do something drastic to take control back again. That's not true though, NC is a way of taking control of your life again. It's saying "I am going to do what I want to do and leave you to your mess and not let it affect me anymore." You should never, ever consider filing for D without a long period of NC (or minimal C).
Well, my WW must not agree about when to file for D. Her L sent her the entire dissolution package today to populate. I know I can’t control whether she files or not. What’s the recommended advice knowing it’s coming, continue with NC and wait for it to arrive?
I need to consider that she was emotionally D at BD, and that her reality was that we were D (paper MR only) and she was free to do what/who she wanted. My reality was that I’ve still considered us married this whole time. I need to come to grips with that and if I was in a new relationship with her or someone else, then I wouldn’t expect that person to disclose everything about their past, lovers, escapades, etc. Sure, those may come up at some point, but full disclosure up front would not be a requirement to start a new relationship.
What?!
This is an example of your NGS and just how little respect you have for yourself. We've tried to tell you her viewpoint, based on what we've learned about the wayward W.....but that doesn't mean it
was reality or that you should condone her wayward mentality.....nor, sweep it under the rug (should there be a new R). You will not have a new R with her if it's built on lies, deceit, and secrets. So, you think you would be in the wrong to expect her to be up front with you about her affairs? Man oh man! At
what point do you think full disclosure would be a requirement to start a new relationship? IMHO, I would want full disclosure before I committed the second time around.
Even if you married another woman, and if she had slept with....say....... your best friend, your boss, or a relative, you wouldn't expect her to disclose that information
before you married her? Perhaps she was legally free to sleep with anyone she chose, but
ethically, would you not want her to respect you enough to let you hear it from her? If I was going to marry someone, I'd want to know about their past, lovers, and escapades. (I'm not talking about disclosing the dirty
details of them having sex).
What I really wanted to rebuild trust was confidence that the other R’s were over and a feeling of safety and security that they would never happen again.
The
burden of rebuilding trust, IMHO, is mainly on the person who's guilty of betrayal. It's up to her to show that she can be trusted again, after violating it. Now I realize that trust is like "faith" and it's up to you, but when it comes to reconciliation and/or a new relationship with that same person, I believe they should make amends before you just jump in trusting again. See, from the get-go you have tried to make allowances and put her with you in the same shoe, but it didn't work b/c she doesn't want what you want. She doesn't feel what you feel. She doesn't honor what you honor.
Not rehashing details about the past.
It's funny that you make this statement, b/c you are the one who is always wanting to have a R talk, or confront her. Maybe it wasn't to rehash the past, but you do a lot of talking about what you want. I get the feeling that you think telling her about this great new marriage would convince her to come back home. The only thing that will convince her to join you in making a new MR is for her to see you moving forward without her.
I wanted it to be a time to move forward. I wanted to have more intimacy with her than we had before, so there wouldn’t need to be secrets and we could share our feelings, concerns, and expectations.
These are dreams, not actions.
I wanted us to be able to be vulnerable around each other
Stop right there, b/c I think you used this vulnerable word in past posts. Let's look that word up in the dictionary.
1) susceptible to physical or emotional attack or harm; 2) (of a person) in need of special care, support, or protection because of age, disability, or risk of abuse or neglect.IMHO, women don't want a vulnerable man for her husband. She wants him to be the strong one, not the vulnerable one in the relationship. Maybe that is something you need to examine about the past. It's the woman who looks to her H for protection and leadership. Perhaps she didn't get that vibe from you, b/c you showed weakness and she couldn't lean on your strength.
and feel safe that we are not judging but rather supportive and understanding.
If I was the WW and heard you present this talk, I would immediately recognize you speaking for both of us. You are trying to paint the glowing picture of a perfect relationship, hoping to lasso her and pull her back. It is heavy pursuing words, even if you think you are simply describing what "you" want.
I’m conflicted between confronting her and moving forward with D, giving her the choice to commit or initiate D, or continue NC.
See? There you go again, wanting to confront (talk) and giving her the choice to commit or initiate D. How many times will it take telling you this plan doesn't work, before you accept that it really doesn't work? You don't tell a WW to commit or initiate D. She has already proven she doesn't want to commit, and she's not initiating D b/c she benefits from being Mrs. Curtis.
Venting...S8 and I were getting ready to head out to a football game and WW is there prepping the barn for the hurricane. I noticed she brought the ladder over from her place and I mentioned to S8 that I hope she leaves it so I can clean out the gutters.
Of course, S8 brings it up.
S8: “Dad needs the ladder to clean the gutters.”
WW: “Dad could have just asked me instead of using our son as the messenger, but dad won't talk to me.”
LBH: “What did you say? Don’t talk to me like that, I didn’t ask him to say anything about the ladder.”
WW: “Your just mad because you’re not getting your way.”
LBH: “Not getting my way? Am I getting my way when you go to OM3’s city?”
Probably should have bit my lip, but it was a truth dart. This NC seems to really be pissing her off. She doesn’t like me not being available to her when she pleases. Maybe I should have not responded or said something like there are consequences for your choices.
Gosh darn it!!! I think she’s trying to ruin my night. Not going to happen. S8 and I will have a blast.
C,
Explain to me exactly what those consequences are.
It sounds like your WW has your place and her own place. That has to be hard for you. She gets what she wants from you and throws away what she doesn't.
This is just me talking, and I'm really in no position to be giving advise because I'm somewhere between being a hard @$$ wanting respect, and a softie privately because I miss the person that was once there known as my W. But if I even had suspicion of my woman cheating on me, and she had absolutely no legal claim to my property, didn't want to reconcile, didn't want to be my W anymore and she wanted out. I would have told her to GTFO my property until she gets right with God, her ways, and right with her Husband. Maybe prideful of me and gets me divorced, but I don't give a damn if they need space, wants to find themselves, moves away or worse, forces you to move, they can keep it. I may be an @$$hole who has made some bad mistakes in my M and I have to live forever with the guilt of not correcting it when I should have which led me to this, but my self respect cones first. They can stay or go. If they want to go, then they can keep walking. Don't let the door kick you in the @$$ on the way out.
C,
Explain to me exactly what those consequences are.
Hmm...LH, now you’re trying to ruin my night making me think about this. Consequences are NC with me which is pissing her off and perhaps eventually her seeing the destruction of our family that she has caused. Unlikely though as she appears to be dead set on filing.
It sounds like your WW has your place and her own place. That has to be hard for you. She gets what she wants from you and throws away what she doesn't.
Ovr, I don’t see a way around it unless I file to obtain sole possession of the property. We are both on the deed. I’m not an animal hater to just open the gate and allow the horse to trot off. I know her well enough to appreciate that would be an unforgivable act in her mind. I recall you suggesting that I tell her to move it or I sell it off. To me that is vindictive and an attempt to punish her. She’s held me in contempt for a long time about the horse. Even prior to BD, so I’ve tried to 180 on that to be more accepting of her pride and joy. I get it, it is hard when I recognize how she is taking advantage of our success in life and me for only the small part that benefits her.
On a positive note, S8 and I are have a wonderful time at the football game. Big blowout in favor of the good guys.
This is just me talking, and I'm really in no position to be giving advise because I'm somewhere between being a hard @$$ wanting respect, and a softie privately because I miss the person that was once there known as my W. But if I even had suspicion of my woman cheating on me, and she had absolutely no legal claim to my property, didn't want to reconcile, didn't want to be my W anymore and she wanted out. I would have told her to GTFO my property until she gets right with God, her ways, and right with her Husband. Maybe prideful of me and gets me divorced, but I don't give a damn if they need space, wants to find themselves, moves away or worse, forces you to move, they can keep it. I may be an @$$hole who has made some bad mistakes in my M and I have to live forever with the guilt of not correcting it when I should have which led me to this, but my self respect cones first. They can stay or go. If they want to go, then they can keep walking. Don't let the door kick you in the @$$ on the way out.
She does have legal claim to the property, but I know where you’re coming from. The cheating is definitely getting to me and prompting thoughts of being progressively mean to her. I’m trying very hard to suppress these thoughts because they shouldn’t be arising if I was more detached.
I’ve been reading HoosJim’s sitch a lot lately and that helped me discover Artista and her posts. Artista’s H basically told her that he thought she had a problem, she needed to get help, and that he couldn’t protect her any longer and needed to distance himself from her to protect himself. I feel like this is where I’m kind of at.
C,
You actually cost me sleep last night because I read your posts before bed and I couldn't fall asleep because it made me angry. I guess I need to detach from you lol. So you're worried that anything that happens to the horse would become unforgivable but her completely destroying your soul and your family is forgivable on your end. WTF???
So in your mind your NC for two days is going to make he see she is destroying her family and make her wake up? WTF????
Now after reading hoosjims thread which btw has zero in common with your sitch, you decide you need to distance yourself and protect yourself enem though we've been telling you this for seven months. WTF????
Look man I am really sorry you're going through this but I truly believe you will be better off without her. If she ever gets her $hit together you can revisit a recon in the future. IMO you need to take at minimum a year to work on yourself and realize that you have value and that you will never allow someone to disrespect you again in this manner.
Stay strong!
If I was in a new relationship with her or someone else, then I wouldn’t expect that person to disclose everything about their past, lovers, escapades, etc. Sure, those may come up at some point, but full disclosure up front would not be a requirement to start a new relationship.
What?!
This is an example of your NGS and just how little respect you have for yourself. We've tried to tell you her viewpoint, based on what we've learned about the wayward W.....but that doesn't mean it
was reality or that you should condone her wayward mentality.....nor, sweep it under the rug (should there be a new R). You will not have a new R with her if it's built on lies, deceit, and secrets. So, you think you would be in the wrong to expect her to be up front with you about her affairs? Man oh man! At
what point do you think full disclosure would be a requirement to start a new relationship? IMHO, I would want full disclosure before I committed the second time around.
Sandi, point taken. If I’m understanding you correctly you’re saying the LBS can’t give a WW a pass that everything they’ve done was acceptable because they were wayward. In no way whatsoever do I condone her affairs and they can’t be swept under the rug. They need to be dealt with to my satisfaction once, then we need to move on. It’s not something I would want to bring up again later in the R and use against her. I certainly don’t want to be exposed to the intimate details as that paints a mental picture that is difficult to block out. I do want a relationship built on honesty and trust. That is essential based on all the pain I’ve experienced from the lies and deceit. So, you’ve convinced me that full disclosure on all of the affair partners is a must to demonstrate commitment to me as her only partner going forward.
Regarding NGS, much of mine developed after BD. Aside from covert contracts and trying to fix her problems, I really wasn’t a “nice guy” during our MR. I told her what I wanted and she usually went along with it. She became tired and resentful about feeling like she didn’t have a voice in the MR and that she wasn’t treated like an equal partner. My NGS since BD stems from trying to avoid D at all costs and holding the rope for so long. Knowing my S was involved in active PAs made me spin and it’s taken a long time to see and learn how to handle that type of sitch.
Not rehashing details about the past.
It's funny that you make this statement, b/c you are the one who is always wanting to have a R talk, or confront her. Maybe it wasn't to rehash the past, but you do a lot of talking about what you want. I get the feeling that you think telling her about this great new marriage would convince her to come back home. The only thing that will convince her to join you in making a new MR is for her to see you moving forward without her.
The best way I can think of to show I’m moving on without her is to file for D. Some days I feel that is absolutely, unequivocally the right thing to do. Then, other days I find myself still giving her the benefit of the doubt that she will wake up and see the damage she’s caused to me, our MR, and our family.
Now, I know that I can show her I’m moving forward without filing for D, but my patience has been progressively faltering. I feel similar to what Starsky described as there came a time to make a stand for holiness in the MR. Since she knows that I know she is still in an active PA, or at least in contact with the OM and lying to me about it, I just don’t feel like I can condone and tolerate it any longer. D will be horrible for my family, especially b/c I see how great of a future W and I can have if we were to R. I accept that will never happen unless she gives up the AP. It seems her stubbornness and feelings for him won’t allow her to end it right now and maybe ever. Ultimately it is her choice, but I also have the power to make a choice for myself and for what’s best for my kids.
I wanted us to be able to be vulnerable around each other
Stop right there, b/c I think you used this vulnerable word in past posts. Let's look that word up in the dictionary.
1) susceptible to physical or emotional attack or harm; 2) (of a person) in need of special care, support, or protection because of age, disability, or risk of abuse or neglect.IMHO, women don't want a vulnerable man for her husband. She wants him to be the strong one, not the vulnerable one in the relationship. Maybe that is something you need to examine about the past. It's the woman who looks to her H for protection and leadership. Perhaps she didn't get that vibe from you, b/c you showed weakness and she couldn't lean on your strength.
I’ve thought about some of my responsibilities in the MR as a H often and concluded that it is my role to protect our MR and protect our family from harm and predators. Now the question is how do I act to accomplish that objective. I was in such a daze early on after BD that I didn’t know which way was up. Also, my WW was so resentful of me that any efforts along this front would have likely sent her running even faster in the opposite direction. However, now things have calmed down and I do not believe that she still sees me as the root cause for all of her unhappiness. Still, I’m not sure how to be a protector beyond stating it with words alone. It’s not advised to confront the OM and removing myself from her life doesn’t really allow me to provide protection. I can just be a great father to my kids while they are with me, lovingly detach and leave her to figure out her own mess while she is wayward.
and feel safe that we are not judging but rather supportive and understanding.
If I was the WW and heard you present this talk, I would immediately recognize you speaking for both of us. You are trying to paint the glowing picture of a perfect relationship, hoping to lasso her and pull her back. It is heavy pursuing words, even if you think you are simply describing what "you" want.
I don’t have much of a rebuttal here. She basically expressed her concern about people at Retrouvaille judging her in this manner and I know it is a soft spot. However despicable her actions and choices have been, they are based on her feelings at the time and I should respect that as I had no control over them. I feel that if she were to open up to me with real honesty and insight into the why’s, then I will need to be safe to approach in her eyes.
I’m conflicted between confronting her and moving forward with D, giving her the choice to commit or initiate D, or continue NC.
See? There you go again, wanting to confront (talk) and giving her the choice to commit or initiate D. How many times will it take telling you this plan doesn't work, before you accept that it really doesn't work? You don't tell a WW to commit or initiate D. She has already proven she doesn't want to commit, and she's not initiating D b/c she benefits from being Mrs. Curtis.
I am hearing you Sandi, it’s not how many times everyone telling me that talking doesn’t work. It’s when do I feel like I’ve done all I can, when will I have no regrets that I did what I could to save the MR, when will I stand up for what I believe in and what I will tolerate from my S. When will I finally let her go and cut off all benefits she receives from having me as her H. Those are some of the most challenging questions to answer for the LBS and timing to act upon them is also key.
When will I finally let her go and cut off all benefits she receives from having me as her H. Those are some of the most challenging questions to answer for the LBS and timing to act upon them is also key.
If you had followed advice, it would have been 6 months ago.. Bye bye Mr Horse. Hello GAL
You actually cost me sleep last night because I read your posts before bed and I couldn't fall asleep because it made me angry. I guess I need to detach from you lol. So you're worried that anything that happens to the horse would become unforgivable but her completely destroying your soul and your family is forgivable on your end. WTF???
LH, please don’t lose sleep over me. You have better and more exciting things to think about at night. Yes, detach, don’t let what I post affect your emotions. I’m replying in the morning so you can be angry all day.
On some level, I feel that horse is more important to her than most human beings. It is her pride and joy. However, I still believe family and kids are first in her life.
Now after reading hoosjims thread which btw has zero in common with your sitch, you decide you need to distance yourself and protect yourself even though we've been telling you this for seven months. WTF????
What can I say...I guess I’m slow? In some regards I’m as stubborn as her and stuck in my ways of doing what doesn’t work. Yes, I was in a fog too and didn’t want to see reality for what it was in that my MR was over and she had no intentions of coming back.
Ok, so my sitch is not like hoosjim’s and you previously informed me that it was not like P_Jam’s. While each sitch is unique and has its own quirks, many of them are similar and follow a repeatable storyline. So, dare I ask which sitches does mine have the most in common with? I hope they don’t all end in D with never a hint of R. Please find me one as bad as mine that successfully R.
Look man I am really sorry you're going through this but I truly believe you will be better off without her. If she ever gets her $hit together you can revisit a recon in the future. IMO you need to take at minimum a year to work on yourself and realize that you have value and that you will never allow someone to disrespect you again in this manner.
LH, I truly respect your opinion and can’t blame you for making this recommendation when you step back and logically evaluate my sitch and all that has gone down. I know my value and I have allowed her to disrespect me over and over again. Isn’t that to be expected to some extent when the LBH makes a decision to stand, remain married, and give the WW time and space?
This is one of the biggest decisions of my life and it’s bigger than me. It will have a lasting affect on me, her, my kids, family, and friends. Those are some of the considerations and factors I’m battling internally. Respect versus hope for what could be.
If you had followed advice, it would have been 6 months ago.. Bye bye Mr Horse. Hello GAL
Yes, when I joined the forum and I most likely would have been D by now. I wouldn’t have had to endure all the pain and suffering of knowing my W was cheating with several OM. On the flip side, I would have felt like I was the quitter. I allowed myself to be disrespected for what I saw as the greater prize of restoring my MR and keeping my family together. I truly feel giving it all you can for as long as you can is justified when you choose to love your S and especially when young kids are involved.
C,
Your number one problem is you still think that allowing yourself to be disrespected is the best way to save your marriage when in reality it is the reason your W will most likely D you. I don't know why you can't understand it. This IMO is what is going to haunt you. What if I would have listen to the people who have seen these situations 1,000s of times?
You can stand for your marriage and not allow disrespect. You could have told your W that she is free to move out and live her life as she pleases but she has to take her pride and joy (horse wtf??) with her. You could have calmly told her no she can't come over and swim and drink your beer whenever she wants because it doesn't work for you.
When I was 17 my gf at the time broke up with me. I cried, wrote her love notes even dropped off a cassette tape (yeah I'm old) of our song at her apartment. Guess what happened she still dumped me. Years down the road it was never about her or getting dumped my reminder was how I acted after being dumped. I didn't respect myself.
Curtis the reality is by the time you get here the odds are you will end up getting D'd. We have recently found out one of our few success stories is challenged again. We try to help you to increase your odds of preventing it and help you the best we can to move forward. Most newbies struggle with DB because its counterintuitive.
Curtis I think you are a really nice guy but I also think you are very naive to how attraction works. Google "hypergamy". You read bits and pieces of old threads, probably books and other sources but I don't think you clearly understand the circumstances and context and then have problems with implementation.
Today is the first day of the rest of your life. DB starts today.
Please listen to us Curtis.
Start DB.
Respect!
I don't know why you can't understand it. This IMO is what is going to haunt you. What if I would have listen to the people who have seen these situations 1,000s of times?
THIS !!!!
My biggest regret is that i never put DB into practice after OM1... I lost self respect for a couple of months, all in the effort to save the family / say a tried.. All futile..
Listen, GAL, Detach - even if she doesnt respect you, gain self respect !
Curt,
Here is some truth, my wife and I reconciled. We are still together. After all the damage I did and she did we are still together today, that does not mean it will always be that way. And we both understand that. We both are more aware of our mistakes and faults and are working to improve our M and relationship.
But we would not be reconciled if I was being nice to her. It's no way. Below I will give you some of my W statements while she was in the fog and some after she came out.
My WW told me, "who are you going to meet this weekend." I was dressed to impressed and took a trip to Austin for the weekend. I asked her to shave my back before I left. After shaving my back she say's, "I'm not shaving your back ever again, and tell that bi$%^ that you are meeting up with to enjoy you". I just looked at her and rolled out. I didn't try to defend myself or give an explanation. While, I was walking out, she says, "I now know how it feels to be cheated on by you". I never give her any indications I was messing with another woman, it was her own guilt eating her up.
After we reconciled. My wife told me, "The thought of you being with OW was tearing me up. I would have to move to another city before I watch you get in a relationship with OW" (she's the cheater not me, what a crazy statement).
I stop calling, texting, emailing or holding long conversations with her. That type of communication was for someone special in my life and my WW wasn't it. She started texting, emailing, and calling me. I was short and to the point in our communication. After we reconciled she told me, she started complaining to the OM about my actions, he was getting jealous (LOL). Her OM was jealous of her husband. I never mentioned his name or gave the thought of him any life by letting his name of anything about him come out of my mouth.
One of the last events that happen was, my W wanted to spend time with me, so we watched a movie, I found out she was still talking to the OM, after she had informed me she wasn't. I woked her up right at the moment, and told her to get her sh!t and leave. I meant it, I was done. And she felt it, no more disrespect. I wasn't going to allow it. We went back and forth about her getting the hell out. And then I gave her two options, you can continue talking to him and leave, or stop talking to him and stay. The whole point of that, was to show her I was done with the BS. That happened at the end of September 2017, A week later she asked me to set up counseling sessions, she flaked on the first few sessions, ( I never forced her to go). By the end of the month she was asking to work on the M. Now, mind you, I had asked her on multiple occasions in July and August to go to counseling, I just stop asking, after I found this forum.
I found this site at the end of August 2017. It took me three weeks of being smashed upside the head by Vets for me to get that me being nice was not going to work and to just let go of what I thought was right and DB. Once I started DBing my relationship and interactions with my WW started to turn around.
My wife told me in June 2017 ILYBINILWY, I begged and pleaded until the beginning of August, no change in her heart, actions or her wants of wanting out. I started to actively DB at the beginning of September.
I posted the my time line to give you a reference. Your actions are not in line with a person that want to be respected. Your actions are in line with a person that don't mind being disrespected.
This post is getting too long. But I see a person, that's not really getting the application of what he's reading or what he's being told. You haven't implemented any of the DB fundamentals effectively yet.
You are still saying things like:
"I truly feel giving it all you can for as long as you can is justified when you choose to love your S and especially when young kids are involved." (Not one person has told you to stop loving your W, we have all told you to stop allowing the disrespect and start respecting yourself)
"However, I still believe family and kids are first in her life." (Why in the world would you believe this, her actions have shown you the exact opposite, you are hoping this is how she feels)
"It will have a lasting affect on me, her, my kids, family, and friends. Those are some of the considerations and factors I’m battling internally. Respect versus hope for what could be." (There's that hope word again, it's great to have hope, it's bad to hold on to it like your life depends on it. You are worried about your actions while eliminating her actions, her actions as causing the damage at the moment not YOURS)
"I hope they don’t all end in D with never a hint of R. Please find me one as bad as mine that successfully R." (This comment sounds so weak, it made me spit out my water) (This is all you are worried about. Like I have told you before, you are emotionally attached to one outcome and that's RECON. You have to detach from that outcome to DB effectively)
Then you write this paragraph after everything Sandi, AS, LH and everyone else has been telling you. Which leads me to believe you are doing what ever you want to do. Because, if you were listening you would of never written this:
"I’ve thought about some of my responsibilities in the MR as a H often and concluded that it is my role to protect our MR and protect our family from harm and predators. Now the question is how do I act to accomplish that objective. I was in such a daze early on after BD that I didn’t know which way was up. Also, my WW was so resentful of me that any efforts along this front would have likely sent her running even faster in the opposite direction. However, now things have calmed down and I do not believe that she still sees me as the root cause for all of her unhappiness. Still, I’m not sure how to be a protector beyond stating it with words alone. It’s not advised to confront the OM and removing myself from her life doesn’t really allow me to provide protection. I can just be a great father to my kids while they are with me, lovingly detach and leave her to figure out her own mess while she is wayward.(Yes do this)" (Protection, really!!! You are worried about the wrong things. You should be DBing, not trying to proctect you WW from predators (which in this case are men that you WW, have allowed in her life and not predators).
Keep posting. I'm sorry if my post is too blunt!
Been a couple weeks since I posted, so I wanted to give a LONG update on my sitch. No paperwork has been filed, I'm still married, still separated, WW may or may not still be in a PA (assuming she is), horse is still on my property, and....
....surprise, surprise we're registered for Retrouvaille...why?...I don't really know...maybe because I'm long overdue for something positive to happen in my sitch.
I really appreciate the comments and advice from JoeJoe, LH, Sandi, AS, Nef, IHC, MrBrside, etc. I've re-read your most recent posts on my thread several times and I think it has finally sunk in. JoeJoe, I especially appreciate the summary of the tough love you showed your W. I'll admit that I've failed miserably at DBing. I wasn't able to bring myself to apply the techniques at the proper time. Had I been able to do it over again, knowing what I know now, I would have done things differently. I would not have tolerated disrespect from the start when I discovered the PA with OM1. My shortcomings may have cost me my MR, but I have reached my highest level of detachment so far.
At the beginning of September, I finally came to the realization that my W just doesn't love me. If she did, then she would do whatever it takes to be with the man she loves. This is why she doesn't put forth any effort into us. There are OM in her life that are more important to her. When the LBS accepts this fact, then detachment becomes much easier. It has also freed my mind to reflect deeply on her behavior and choices and how damaging they have been to me and my kids. I won't go into the details, so much of it is absolutely disgusting.
To say that getting BD is a life changing experience is an understatement. Nevertheless, I am a much stronger person as a result and will know how to handle it and know that I'll be fine if I'm ever in a similar sitch again. My confidence has returned, I am more productive at work, spend quality time with my kids when they're with me, and keep busy most evenings with coaching S8's baseball team, playing volleyball and basketball, watching D5 play soccer, going to church, spending time with friends. As great as it would be to share all of this with my family fully intact, I find that I don't nearly miss my W as much. She is off living her life and whatever that entails and I'm living mine.
Contact with WW has been minimal this month. She rarely reaches out, occasionally there is a short text exchange or brief conversation about the kids and that's about it. When the kids are exchanged, we wait in each other's garage and don't step foot in each other's house.
Something else I'll share. At the end of August, when I took S8 to the college football game, my W and D5 went to my parent's house. They spent over 4 hours there and my mom had somewhat of a relationship talk with my W without my prior consent. My mom basically told her that MR is hard and it's not always sunshine and rainbows. That there were many times when she was upset with my dad, but they worked through it, and they've just celebrated their 45th anniversary.
Here were some of the highlights that W said to my mom:
"Curtis and I are on different timelines."
"I've notice his changes, but I'm still trying to figure things out for myself."
"I'm not ready to come back yet."
"I feel bad for making him wait."
"We might attend this Retrouvaille thing, but don't change any of your plans now to watch the kids."
"We're both on a deed of the other house and it could become a rental."
"I don't like going out anymore, the crowd is too young for me." (referring to the night last November when she accepted a ride from a stranger and met OM1)
"My sister turned out normal, but I did not."
"Probably not, no one knows me better than myself." (when mom asked if she was going to talk with someone about her issues)
My gut tells me that she is still in contact with OM3, but I don't think she has gone to see him this month as he lives 2 hours away. Perhaps, the talk with my mother caused her to rethink some of her choices; although, I could be completely wrong. She seems cold and fairly distant, what does AP withdrawal look like?
A post I read from Steve85 on R2C's Quotes thread struck me.
I think it is important that you make sure they understand two things:
1. That you are willing to walk away and end things. As quoted earlier in my thread (s), "they will never find you more attractive than when you're walking away". So true.
2. That they understand that you do love them, that you'd prefer to stay with them, but not unless there are changes and work done in their end.
About a week and a half ago I sent my W the following text: "Hope you know how much I really do love you." She replied: "I know you do. Thank you." This is the first time I said ILY all year. I wanted to say that regardless of how my sitch resolves. Sending it felt like a farewell to me and helped detach more knowing that I've stated through all of the crap and BS, I still made the choice to love her. She will understand that I am willing to walk away and end things soon as well if she doesn't make a choice and I make it for her.
The last two sermons at church have been very appropriate, they were on forgiveness and boundaries, how fitting for the LBS. Kids went with me to the service and afterwards, I asked S8 how he was doing through all of this. He didn't want to say much as I don't think he likes to speak poorly about his mother. Then, he finally said he was sad and that he was angry that he doesn't get to be with both of his parents everyday. This was hard to hear. I just told him I wish things were different but we'll make the most of the time we do have together. Sometimes I hope that my kids turn out nothing like who their mother is right now as her morals destroy people.
Finally...on to Retrouvaille. WW had originally agreed to give the program a try at the beginning of August. I sent her some more information on it at the end of August where it stated that infidelity must be ended before the program is entered. She never responded to the email. I sent her a text a week ago as I needed to know if arrangements should be made for child care, here was the exchange:
H: "Ball is in your court wrt to Retrouvaille."
No response until two days later.
W: "So I asked some questions but they haven't responded yet. The retrovaille or whatever it's called."
H: "Thanks for the update. I appreciate you letting me know."
W: "We can just register and go from there?"
H: "I can do that online. I think they follow up with a phone call."
W: "Okay"
H: "Alright, I'll sign us up."
I received a call from the registration coordinator that evening. He only asked if I'm willing to commit to the entire program consisting of the weekend and 6 follow-up sessions. He also went through a list of requests including that ties with any outside relationships be severed prior to starting the program. W sent me a joking text about some of the requirements later that night. So, I guess she received the call as well and agreed to the terms. Does this mean she is ending her A, I doubt it. I really have no idea why she is going other than to say she tried, who knows, can't hurt anything at this point.
I know many of you advised against attending Retrouvaille until she recommitted to working on the MR. However, I see it as my LRT. I've read stories where WAS went in right off an affair and decided to recommit as the weekend progressed. I am hoping for that miracle, because I don't want to continue living in limbo. Trust me when I say my expectations are nearly zero. I've gone back and forth this week asking myself if I really want to go through with the weekend and if I really see a happy future with her. I certainly don't with who she has become, but if the alien monster departs, perhaps a woman will be exposed that I still love.
I do have a question for AS and any others that may have attended Retrouvaille. I know the questions circle around your own feelings. How do you respond to the questions in reference to BD? Meaning do you frame your responses on how you felt prior to BD when everything was seemingly good, post BD when your life was turned upside down, or provide both perspectives? Thanks in advance.
C,
Boy you sure have me shaking my head after every post of yours that I read lol. I wish you well in Retrouvaille and hope that it works out for you.
You're a good guy who has a lot to offer. I hope you understand that some day.
Curtis, wishing you the best outcome from Retrouvaille.
Trust yourself.
Respect!
Thanks LH and Neffer.
I have read many reviews about Retrouvaille and one in particular about not having regrets said “figure out a way to go or always wonder what might have been.”
Sometimes it’s hard to say what the best possible outcome is for me. Today I’m back to feeling it’s saving my MR. I know that’s what my kids want.
I am looking forward to the weekend. I want to go in with a PMA and give it my best effort. I hope she arrives with an open mind and a willing heart.
I do have a question for AS and any others that may have attended Retrouvaille. I know the questions circle around your own feelings. How do you respond to the questions in reference to BD? Meaning do you frame your responses on how you felt prior to BD when everything was seemingly good, post BD when your life was turned upside down, or provide both perspectives? Thanks in advance.
They will guide you through the communications process once you're there. The focus isn't on what happened or why, the focus is very much on feelings. What you are feeling, what she is feeling, how to explain why you feel like you do, what questions to ask her to discover why she feels like she does. It's all about listening and validating. If you read my comments on validation you know I'm always saying that validation is not agreeing/disagreeing/ negotiating/ explaining/ arguing/ etc. It is simply acknowledging. You may completely disagree with why she is angry about something, but you can STILL acknowledge that she is angry. We all have our feelings about things and the idea is to understand that to each of us, our feelings are real and are our reality whether others agree with them or not. Retro will help you to understand this, and to have your feelings and to let others have theirs. They will give you communication tools and skills for this. They will also give you tools to unlock a lot of feelings you may have been holding in for a long time. It's a very emotional experience.
My best advice for Retro is to quit thinking about it. Go in with a fresh mind. Drop any expectations you have about it. I'll tell you right now it's very unlikely to trigger a 180 in your wife, she's not to that point yet. Go into it not expecting your M to be saved, but rather accept it as a learning experience for you. It didn't save my M but I did learn a lot. I learned 90% of what I know about listening and validating there.
My best advice for Retro is to quit thinking about it. Go in with a fresh mind. Drop any expectations you have about it. I'll tell you right now it's very unlikely to trigger a 180 in your wife, she's not to that point yet. Go into it not expecting your M to be saved, but rather accept it as a learning experience for you. It didn't save my M but I did learn a lot. I learned 90% of what I know about listening and validating there.
Thanks AS! I appreciate the advice. Sounds like I will become a validation expert, a useful tool in a relationship. She’s definitely had her feelings through all of this and mine have mostly been in direct conflict. I will be careful not to judge as they were real for her regardless of whether I felt they were right or wrong.
I will go and trust the process. I do hope we make it through the weekend and the six post sessions. If we can make it through that over the next couple months, we’ll have passed the 1 year anniversary of BD. I feel completing the entire program would demonstrate some level of willingness and commitment. More-so than just cake eating I would think. Small steps in the right direction. At the very least I will learn new skills and grow as a person.
I don’t think going is would be considered cake eating it would be more to check the boxes of we tried everything.
I don’t think going is would be considered cake eating it would be more to check the boxes of we tried everything.
Yep, I agree this may be to say we tried everything. Accepting that POV makes it easier to keep my expectations low going in.
My comment regarding cake eating was alluding to the notion of her being able to maintain the status quo for a couple more months with the horse, family, and benefits of marriage.
I do feel she is torn between giving up the awesome single life that allows her to do what she pleases and the stability and security of the lifestyle that she has in our MR. Unfortunately, she can’t yet see how to be happy in the MR. She won’t acknowledge the possibility of a win-win scenario (married and happy).
Thanks AS! I appreciate the advice. Sounds like I will become a validation expert, a useful tool in a relationship. She’s definitely had her feelings through all of this and mine have mostly been in direct conflict. I will be careful not to judge as they were real for her regardless of whether I felt they were right or wrong.
Yes exactly right. You'll learn that your feelings weren't so much in conflict, it's just that each individual has different feelings and feelings are not "right" or "wrong". For example maybe my favorite cousin Joe Awesome passed away in a car accident. I am upset about it but others I know could care less because they don't know him, so me expressing grief about it might be falling on deaf ears. The thing is, even though they don't care, I do, and if they were sensitive to my feelings then they would understand and sympathize even though it's not a personal loss to them. Sometimes your feelings may be the opposite. Maybe Suzie down the street had a dog that was run over by Joe Awesome and she never got over it, so she was actually happy that he died. Those feelings may seem "wrong" to me in my grief, but she has her reasons for her feelings just like I do.
I do hope we make it through the weekend and the six post sessions.
I think if you're honest with yourself you "hope" that because you heard the statistic that people that made it through all the sessions had a better chance of saving their M. But I don't want you to get your hopes up, you'll learn a lot but this isn't the "epiphany" you want your W to have. The statistic gives false hope because the people who both WANT to work on their M are the ones that go to all the followup sessions. It's not the other way around where the people who make it through the sessions save their M. Do you understand the difference? Your W is both feet out the door and this won't change that.
I feel completing the entire program would demonstrate some level of willingness and commitment.
I am with LH, she's only going so she can check it off her list of "everything I did to try and save the M but proved it was already over." It's fine to have hopes for future recon but you can't attach them to a "magic bullet" because that's not how these things work (unfortunately).
I can't say this enough- DROP ALL EXPECTATIONS.
I think if you're honest with yourself you "hope" that because you heard the statistic that people that made it through all the sessions had a better chance of saving their M. But I don't want you to get your hopes up, you'll learn a lot but this isn't the "epiphany" you want your W to have. The statistic gives false hope because the people who both WANT to work on their M are the ones that go to all the followup sessions. It's not the other way around where the people who make it through the sessions save their M. Do you understand the difference? Your W is both feet out the door and this won't change that.
I can't say this enough- DROP ALL EXPECTATIONS.
I hear you loud and clear. I needed the calibration. You nailed it on my hope if we were to complete the program. The 80% success rate is for couples that BOTH want to do the work. I am at an extreme handicap, a 1% long shot.
I figure that somewhere along the line, during the weekend, post sessions, or some other awakening, a change in her mindset would need to occur for things to swing back in my favor. She would need to want to work on the MR. Otherwise, we will end up in the 20% category of those that finish and don’t save their MR.
Either way, I’ll go, enjoy my time there, and live with the outcome.
C,
what's up man?
I'm surprised your W went to talk to your mom. Kind of weird but oh well. I wouldn't think about it very much though.
"I've notice his changes, but I'm still trying to figure things out for myself."
This is just WW garbage IMO. Why does she need OM to "figure things out"?
Most of everything she told your mom is a steaming pile of horse...well, you know.
I do feel she is torn between giving up the awesome single life that allows her to do what she pleases and the stability and security of the lifestyle that she has in our MR.
Well you just told her how much you love her, she is able to talk to you when she needs to, come see the horse...I only say this to remind you that she hasn't given up much yet.
I figure that somewhere along the line, during the weekend, post sessions, or some other awakening, a change in her mindset would need to occur for things to swing back in my favor
I think your W has had moments like this. The real change is when she decides to continue working on things even when she doesn't feel like it - that's the hard part for a WS. When things are rosy, everyone is good. When S&%^ hits the fan, can you stand and fight or will you run? In this regard, the WS is no different than anyone else. We say our vows, but when push comes to shove, do we mean them?
I think you can show your love for her in ways other than sending a text out of the blue telling her you love her. I think you just go be a good dad, leave her be, and do the things that make you happy. That's love C.
C,
"I've notice his changes, but I'm still trying to figure things out for myself."
This is just WW garbage IMO. Why does she need OM to "figure things out"?
Most of everything she told your mom is a steaming pile of horse...well, you know.
From who's horse? Lol.... Sorry Curtis... I luv ya! Just that everytime I read about the horse or horse puckey. It makes me laugh. Horses that smile like Mr. Ed really make me chuckle.
Well DB community my Retrouvaille weekend has arrived!! Things feel awfully surreal with WW this week. Very little interaction and communication. On Monday she texted asking about the plan for my mom watching the kids while we go to RetroV. She said this was getting super inconvenient as we are going to miss D5’s soccer game on Friday, S8’s fall baseball opening day on Saturday, and she’s not able to attend a software training seminar for work that she planned before I brought up attending the weekend. I validated in response and she replied that she is not looking forward to this at all with a frown emoji. I asked if it was because she didn’t know what to expect and she replied I don’t know.
On Tuesday night she came over to feed the horses and D5 left her shoes. So, I brought the shoes over to W’s house before school on Wednesday morning. Took the kids to sports practice that evening. I coached S8’s baseball, W watched D5’s soccer. W came over to the baseball field after soccer practice ended and was friendly with the other parents. We walked to the parking lot together and exchanged some small talk before going our separate ways. A little later she texted saying thank you so much for bringing D5’s shoes over this morning. I have been getting a little different vibe from her lately sort of like she doesn’t mind being around me. Imagine that, feeling like your W isn’t repulsed being around her H.
This evening I texted her asking if she would like to leave around 5pm tomorrow and grab a bite to eat on the way. She replied sure. So, I guess she is okay with us driving to RetroV together. I did request two beds in the room. Not trying to apply any pressure in that regard. Hopefully, I don’t do, say, or write anything that makes my sitch worse. I’ve felt very strong and confident the past few days. Definitely more like I was prior to BD although much more self aware now and with my 180s part of who I am.
I’m feeling really good tonight and eager to spend a weekend with my W. I have no idea how either of us will handle what we’re about to get ourselves into. Whatever happens happens.
Thank you everyone for the support. Wish me luck.
Hi Curtis,
I skimmed your situation. If it wasn't obvious to your wife initially, it's painfully clear by now you love her and you're trying your very best to make this work for yourself and your family.
If AnotherStander says he learned most of his validation skill from RetroV--wow! I've been reading about listening, validation, and empathy for weeks. My relationship with my partner, family, colleagues, and even ex's improved. It's the best skill I've learned in years. Yet.. I hear nuances in his posts I haven't mastered.
I hope this weekend is a great learning experience. I hope having tried it all, it will also enable you to step out of limbo--either with your wife towards marriage, or on your own towards a faithful partner.
Just catching up on your situation. Good luck for the weekend.
I agree with CW above - I've been using validation/empathy techniques on my members of family and things have improved between my mum and sister massively in the last few months. We talk more and my mum has said she has noticed I'm like a different person - much happier.
The key here is what's been said before - no expectations. Just be confident and positive inwardly, and that will exude confidence outwardly. Apologies for the rather clumsy way of phrasing that!
Well I'm glad she has a positive attitude about it lol. Keep your expectations at zero!
I really hope you understand some day that she needs to EARN another chance with YOU by doing ALL the heavy lifting.
Good luck my friend!
No expectations.
Hope
DB
Good luck C!
Curtis, good luck, keep an open mind and no expectations and everything should go smoothly!
I hear you loud and clear. I needed the calibration. You nailed it on my hope if we were to complete the program. The 80% success rate is for couples that BOTH want to do the work. I am at an extreme handicap, a 1% long shot.
Yes 1% is probably right. RIGHT NOW. I am not trying to steal your hope away, just give you more realistic expectations of your timeline. The chances of recon right now are very, very poor. But as time goes on and you detach and she explores herself then the chances keep getting better. I just didn't want to see you pin your hopes on this or anything else too soon because that leads to disappointment, and disappointment can be so devastating for a LBS. So keep your eyes on the horizon, that's where your hope is. For now just do your thing.
Things feel awfully surreal with WW this week. Very little interaction and communication. On Monday she texted asking about the plan for my mom watching the kids while we go to RetroV. She said this was getting super inconvenient as we are going to miss D5’s soccer game on Friday, S8’s fall baseball opening day on Saturday, and she’s not able to attend a software training seminar for work that she planned before I brought up attending the weekend. I validated in response and she replied that she is not looking forward to this at all with a frown emoji. I asked if it was because she didn’t know what to expect and she replied I don’t know.
All very solid signs that she is still firmly in the WAS camp. She's just not ready to recommit. It's unfortunate but not surprising. In my case it was my XW that requested to go, but she was likewise not committed to it or working on the M.
I have been getting a little different vibe from her lately sort of like she doesn’t mind being around me. Imagine that, feeling like your W isn’t repulsed being around her H.
That's pretty typical, they all run hot and cold. That's why we call it the roller coaster! Don't get excited when she's at the top and don't get depressed when she's at the bottom. You stay to the side on firm ground while she rides up and down.
Let us know how it went when you get a chance!
I appreciate the words of encouragement. I have hope, but not expecting a drastic turnaround. Hoping this will be a catalyst for W looking back in my direction and just maybe becoming curious. If not, life goes on, and I’ll keep DBing.
At a minimum, I should gain some insight on her feelings which she’s closed off and I’ve been out of touch with for so long. She may feel more comfortable once we both learn how to communicate effectively over the weekend.
I think it is a small victory in her merely attending, I can feel a sense of achievement in that feat. I hope she brings a cooperative spirit.
I wish everyone a happy weekend! Mine will be hard work, but I wouldn’t trade this opportunity. Leaving no stone unturned. Focusing on what I can do. Showing her AMOAFWL.
You can do this , strength brother, whatever the outcome. Be a man , dig deep , be a man of few , but succinct words . Remember, you can validate when it’s your turn , do not be weak , you can do it
Ps , I , love , COMMAS !!
All the best Curtis. You can do this mate!
Retrouvaille...wow! What an experience. That was the most emotionally charged event I’ve ever been a part of. It was grueling, hard work, and enlightening. I can see how it has saved so many marriages, overcoming horrible situations including depression, death of a child, addiction, restraining orders, separation, infidelity of both spouses.
I felt SO tired afterwards, both mentally and physically. My emotions were on a rollercoaster from deeply examining the feelings why I love her and why I want to build a new MR to feelings of wanting this all to be over and move forward with the D and my life to everything in between.
W participated and answered the questions honestly and genuinely. The program states that the weekend is not the time to bring up the past. Unfortunately she did at one point and was still not honest about the OM. I didn’t press her on it, just listened and accepted that she is still WW.
The program entry guidelines are that all third party relationships be terminated before starting. On Sunday morning, she confirmed that she is still in contact with OM3 and does not plan to end contact. She stated she hasn’t been with him in a month but talks and/or texts with him daily. She said she understood the entry guideline, but chose not to adhere. Apparently, the feelings for OM3 and the “in love” A fog are too strong. It’s clear he is more important to her than me, our MR, and our family right now.
By Saturday night she was done and burned out. W is spiritual, but not a Christian. Although, the primary focus of Retrouvaille is saving MR relationships, there are sprinkled references to God. Unfortunately, a bit too much for my W’s liking and she shut down. She wanted to leave. I made a few gentle comments to see if she would reconsider. She was certain and I was not going to hold her there against her will. We departed at lunch on Sunday.
W was in deep brought on the drive back with many long and loud inhales and exhales. She asked if I thought she had unrealistic expectations and I replied she needs to decide what’s most important to her in life. She does not want to attend the post sessions, but offered to continue dialoguing a few times a week as a substitute for the six weekly 4 hour follow-up sessions every Sunday through the program.
She wrote “I’m sorry”, she wrote “I love you”, she warmed during the weekend. She wrote that she feels guilty for destroying what we had. She forgave me for all of her past complaints. She wrote she doesn’t know if she can forgive herself and that she has a poor self image. She wrote that she sees how hard I’ve tried and how much I’ve changed. Yet, attraction has not returned. We agreed almost all our major areas of conflict have been resolved, but she doesn’t feel attracted. She still doesn’t get that love is a decision and attraction can be rebuilt if you commit to that choice. She wrote she can’t see a future together right now. On Saturday evening there was a question on how we currently feel, she wrote “Cautiously Curious.” Yes, sounds highly non-committal, but more positive than when we started the weekend. Maybe this was the small achievement and baby step that I can take away from Retrouvaille.
So, she won’t break contact with OM, but wants to dialogue with me. At one point W said that she’s on the fence and several times during the weekend she felt like coming back and other times like ending it. W said she can’t come back and leave again, she can’t do that to the kids. She wants more time to figure things out and said she hasn’t felt like we were separated and she was completely off on her own. She wants to “feel separated.” She knows I feel I’m her plan B. W said she would D her if she was me.
This is so confusing, she wants to feel separated but is wants to continue dialoguing. She asked that I help her work on her self image. The thoughts and feelings swing by the minute. At this time, I plan to work with her on the dialoguing and see where it leads.
There is a ton more and I’ll try to post in a longer update once I’m able to process everything.
In closing, I HIGHLY recommend Retrouvaille for couples where BOTH partners want to work on the MR. It works, I have no doubt about it.
C,
I'm sorry Retrouvaille didn't work out but you knew it was a long shot as best so I'm guessing you weren't to surprised.
I am going tho keep this brief and give you to pieces of advice:
1. Don't dialogue with her while she is still talking to OM. That is your boundary. As far as helping her with her self image, you didn't break her and you can't fix her. Leave her to work on herself.
2. Give her the separation she is requesting. That means live like you are divorced. She takes and houses the horse, you discuss nothing but the children and you move on with your life. The only thing that will turn this around long term is time and space.
Don't listen to any of her words because it's all WW bs. Look only at her actions. Her continuing contact with OM is an action. Her continuing to life on her own action. You will not build attraction until she respects you and no woman will respect a man who is willing to share her with another man.
Curt,
We have given you so much advice and you have chose to go against that advice in every single situation. Advice is an option you can choose to take it or leave it. But every time I read a post from you, it reaks of you kicking hope down the road to try to get your WW back, (she don't won't to come back at the moment). Allow her to be free of you trying to fix things.
You have all the ability to take your respect back. You knew your WW was still talking to OM3, you knew she was in contact with OM and still decided to go to an event the we explicitly told you it was for two people willing to work on the M. AS and I told you it would overwhelm your WW if you brought her there, and she got overwhelmed. That whole weekend made you look desperate and weak.
Now she wants to continue dialog (What does that even means). She wants to talk to you about her feelings, while on the end continue to make OM3 her #1 priority, while throwing you crumbs. Come on man!!!! Wake up!! Please!!! Have some dignity and self respect for yourself. Why would you even want that? Dialog, what are you and her going to dialog (talk about)?
Get out of her way, and move forward with you life. Everything you have done and I mean everything has been about you trying to control your WW and ya'll situation. I told you that months ago, that you need to stop trying control your situation and your WW with these obvious (trying to fix things) tactics.
You have lost control of this situation. I'm pretty sure one of your WW complaints have been about your controlling ways, and they are continuing, you done nothing to correct it.
Your WW has told she feels more for OM and wants space and time from you to feel what it's like to be separated. It's obvious she don't want to hurt you at the same time keep you as a plan B by leaving those tiny bread crumbs and you eat them right up.
I don't know what else or advice to give you. It's so frustrating reading your post. I don't get frustrated easily. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!
I hope I read a post from you one day soon, where you took some advice from this forum.
Curtis. What if this place wasn't about divorce busting (Where it didn't potentially provide false hope, but yet pep talks on saving yourself and becoming a better person.) ? What if this place was just a little guy to guy hang out cafe? Tailgate, party or event? What if after talking to your buddies about your W actions, behavior, and screwing around with OM3, what do you think they would say to you? They would probably say something like: "Pack her $hit, off load, sell, or find another location for the horse, or charge rent for it, have some dignity and self respect, and take your ball$ back." You know why they would say that? Because they are emotionally detached from the situation. I know its hard to detach because you spent so many years, intimate moments, and vulnerability with this person. But let me ask you this? If this were a friend, acquaintance, or family member doing this to you. Would you respond the same way? Or would you put up real boundaries with real consequences, and distance yourself from this person to keep you emotionally healthy?
Curtis- great comments from LH, Joe and IH above.
LH said most of what I was going to but just to reinforce a couple of his points:
I would not recommend dialoging with her. I would suggest telling her that while you would be open to that, you don't feel it's appropriate while she's engaging in an affair. She might argue that she's not actually sleeping with him but simply talking to him is STILL an affair.
She says she doesn't feel separated and wants to. Make that wish come true. Quit ALL contact with her. Tell her to get the horse out of there. Don't do her any favors, don't let her come by, end it all. She will never learn to miss you until you can make that happen.
I shake my head every time i read your comments Curtis.
I dont know you as a person, and i really dont want to come across as attacking, but you seem to be a door matt.. I dont want to get personal, but i dont know how you look in the mirror and have any self respect.
If people ask me about the biggest thing i would change ( i tried, pleaded, begged etc for approx 2 months prior to minding this site ) it would be not kicking her @$$ out sooner. Out of my whole sitch its the lack of self respect that still eats me up... I put up with it from October until December, then had cake eating for another month.. 2 to 3 months of crap.. Yes i've lost seing my kids daily, yes i am single at 39 and now i have a biggest mortgage.. But the thing that kicks me the most is my own stupid weekness when all this started..
Our sitchs are very similar.. I said that from day one.. we are about 2 months out of line in terms of time scale, but you are now nealry 12 months in and still in total limbo / denial...
Dude, you need to really get a grip and get your life in order... You have one life to live, and at the moment you are living it for somebody else. I really hope you snap out of this mindset and start to live for you and your kids.. Send the horse to the glue factory - ;-)
If people ask me about the biggest thing i would change ( i tried, pleaded, begged etc for approx 2 months prior to minding this site ) it would be not kicking her @SS out sooner. Out of my whole sitch its the lack of self respect that still eats me up... I put up with it from October until December, then had cake eating for another month.. 2 to 3 months of crap.. Yes i've lost seing my kids daily, yes i am single at 39 and now i have a biggest mortgage.. But the thing that kicks me the most is my own stupid weekness when all this started..
A 2x4 named "truth"
But in your and my and every other LBS's defense, we get blindsided by BD and we are reeling and almost all of us go through that phase of begging and pleading and generally making fools of ourselves. It's part of the process to recovery I think. It has to happen. But as the saying goes- "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me." Let me tell you, I learned my lesson! My GF and I have gone through some rough times and when she says something like "maybe we should break up" I say "I think you're right, that's for the best" and then I go dark. Inevitably a day or two later she's back crying and apologizing. I will never be anyone's doormat again, not for a month or a week or a day or an hour!
So Curtis, hopefully these 2x4's aren't knocking you down. You are hurting and suffering and miserable and in that state is is darned tough to think and see clearly. And it's also tough to read harsh advice, I know it's hard because it was for me too. But that's what's great about this place is that we can help you cut through the fog. So try to read and learn and adapt. You can do this!
Here you go Curtis. Time for some red pills.
I appreciate the words of encouragement. I have hope, but not expecting a drastic turnaround. Hoping this will be a catalyst for W looking back in my direction and just maybe becoming curious. If not, life goes on, and I’ll keep DBing.
At a minimum, I should gain some insight on her feelings which she’s closed off and I’ve been out of touch with for so long. She may feel more comfortable once we both learn how to communicate effectively over the weekend.
I think it is a small victory in her merely attending, I can feel a sense of achievement in that feat. I hope she brings a cooperative spirit.
I wish everyone a happy weekend! Mine will be hard work, but I wouldn’t trade this opportunity. Leaving no stone unturned. Focusing on what I can do. Showing her AMOAFWL.
Geez, I've been bombarded by 2x4's. I don't blame any of you. I would give the same advice to someone else.
Re-quoting my last post before attending Retrouvaille and I would say that all-in-all it was a success. My goals were met. W is curious and looking back in my direction. I gained a load of insight on her feelings. She brought a very cooperative spirit, participated and gave genuine effort.
No, it was not a drastic 180 on her part, but we left the weekend in a more positive place than when we arrived. I was disappointed that we left early, likely because I had an expectation that we would commit to the entire program which included the 6 weekly follow-up sessions. The expectation wasn't good, and she picked up on that when we left. However, I still have hope.
C,
I'm sorry Retrouvaille didn't work out but you knew it was a long shot as best so I'm guessing you weren't to surprised.
I am going tho keep this brief and give you to pieces of advice:
1. Don't dialogue with her while she is still talking to OM. That is your boundary. As far as helping her with her self image, you didn't break her and you can't fix her. Leave her to work on herself.
2. Give her the separation she is requesting. That means live like you are divorced. She takes and houses the horse, you discuss nothing but the children and you move on with your life. The only thing that will turn this around long term is time and space.
Don't listen to any of her words because it's all WW bs. Look only at her actions. Her continuing contact with OM is an action. Her continuing to life on her own action. You will not build attraction until she respects you and no woman will respect a man who is willing to share her with another man.
LH, it may be premature to claim that Retrouvaille didn't work out. Nevertheless, I think you're advice is perfect. Enforcing a boundary that shows I will not share my W, letting her fix her own problems, and giving her what she wants (separation). It shows that I'm respecting myself and her requests. I cannot argue with you at all. Still, I question if it's the right thing to do at this moment. Everyone here seems to agree that it is.
Yet, I'm still trying to evaluate this objectively. She has not been with OM3 since the end of August (if that is true)...I think it is as OM3 is 2 hours away and we've had a lot of kid activities in the past month. She is likely still in contact with him though. She has scheduled dialogue sessions with me several days this week, even when she doesn't have the kids. She is curious and looking back in my direction.
We have given you so much advice and you have chose to go against that advice in every single situation. Advice is an option you can choose to take it or leave it. But every time I read a post from you, it reaks of you kicking hope down the road to try to get your WW back, (she don't won't to come back at the moment). Allow her to be free of you trying to fix things.
Get out of her way, and move forward with you life. Everything you have done and I mean everything has been about you trying to control your WW and ya'll situation. I told you that months ago, that you need to stop trying control your situation and your WW with these obvious (trying to fix things) tactics.
Your WW has told she feels more for OM and wants space and time from you to feel what it's like to be separated. It's obvious she don't want to hurt you at the same time keep you as a plan B by leaving those tiny bread crumbs and you eat them right up.
I don't know what else or advice to give you. It's so frustrating reading your post. I don't get frustrated easily. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!
Joejoe, you are right. Your advice is filled with logic. I am dealing with an illogical human being right now and I'm being illogical as well by even considering not to follow the sound advice everyone is giving me. I have not made a decision on this yet.
They would probably say something like: "Pack her $hit, off load, sell, or find another location for the horse, or charge rent for it, have some dignity and self respect, and take your ball$ back."
IH, they would and have. If I had a friend going through this, knowing what I know now, I would give say something like that too.
I shake my head every time i read your comments Curtis.
I dont know you as a person, and i really dont want to come across as attacking, but you seem to be a door matt.. I dont want to get personal, but i dont know how you look in the mirror and have any self respect.
I haven't shared too much about what she opened up about during Retrouvaille, but I see that she recognizes the destruction that she's caused. I see why it appears I'm being a doormat. I haven't done much in the 11 months since BD to command respect.
But as the saying goes- "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me."
I was fooled in late July after her friend's H died and she seemed to have an awakening for a week. That was short-lived and her WW returned. Now, I may be getting fooled again until the Retrouvaille hangover wears off. It's another up cycle on the roller coaster, she is running hot. The cold will probably return again. I don't have a plan if that happens,
You are hurting and suffering and miserable and in that state is is darned tough to think and see clearly.
I'm actually not doing too bad at all. Actually, even though my MR is a disaster, I'm feeling quite upbeat about life.
I would like to know from the vets. When a WW starts to question her choices and the A fog lifts ever so slightly, is that not the time to be there for support rather than alienating her? Showing her that I'm the better option?
I would like to know from the vets. When a WW starts to question her choices and the A fog lifts ever so slightly, is that not the time to be there for support rather than alienating her? Showing her that I'm the better option?
She's asking for separation and until she is kicking the door down to change that you need to listen to her and give her what she wants, but stopping all the BS with her frequent visits and talks.
Re-quoting my last post before attending Retrouvaille and I would say that all-in-all it was a success. My goals were met. W is curious and looking back in my direction. I gained a load of insight on her feelings. She brought a very cooperative spirit, participated and gave genuine effort.
No, it was not a drastic 180 on her part, but we left the weekend in a more positive place than when we arrived. I was disappointed that we left early, likely because I had an expectation that we would commit to the entire program which included the 6 weekly follow-up sessions. The expectation wasn't good, and she picked up on that when we left. However, I still have hope.
Sorry but from an outsider looking in, this looks like you are in total la la land... Just what you have written shows where your head is at.. and its not a good place?
However, I still have hope.
Hope for what ? You have tried to justify why RV was a success, but the reality is that you are no better off than your were when you went. You say you have a better understanding of WW.. Sandy says it time and time again, and there are 100 people on here would you agree - Believe nothing they say!!... She played you and fed you a few crumbs, yet is still engaged to OM3... And you still have hope ????
I would like to know from the vets. When a WW starts to question her choices and the A fog lifts ever so slightly, is that not the time to be there for support rather than alienating her? Showing her that I'm the better option?
Icing on the cake ( she can carry on cake eating) comment to show how you are still the same person you were the day you joined this board..Harsh but true..
Disrespected, used, mentally abused even... and you are still bothered about looking like the BETTER option'... Why on earth would you want to be a better option for somebody like this. Would you ever trust her again - dont be a fool.. Sorry to say but she is damaged goods. And with damaged good, you dont use them, you get rid.
Be a BETTER YOU and get yourself into a BETTER place. A place with no horse, a place without her, a place where your children, own health and mental wellbeing are key - a place where you focus on BETTERING yourself... And in 12 months time, once you are in that place, consider a relationship with a BETTER person - NOT your WW.. She is not a good relationship candidate. At the moment you are still in love with your WW.. Once them goggles lift ( hence why i said a min 12 months before starting to look at other people ) you will see that your WW wasnt all that. There are 1000s of ladies out there.. Ladies that are not damaged like your WW. Ladies who are good relationship material. She is damaged and damaging you.. Move onwards and upwards.. Become BETTER for you are YOUR future.. Not Better for some WW who just uses and abuses.
C,
Boy you sure are a different cat. Let's throw OM3 out of the equation. You are still not listening to what she is saying! She is asking for a true separation. Does that sound like someone who wants to work on the marriage?
I agree that she may be questioning her choice with OM3 due to his availability and distance. However that doesn't mean she's coming back to you. She has stated that she is not attracted to you and I know this is going to sound harsh but I can see why. You have no backbone and allow her to treat you badly. That is not attractive!!!!!
I have no doubt that you are a great father and a super nice guy but until you learn to love and respect yourself you will struggle to keep a relationship with a woman who has options.
If you want to forever cement yourself in the friend zone then go ahead and support her. I still think you're going to kick yourself one day for not trying DB.
I would like to know from the vets. When a WW starts to question her choices and the A fog lifts ever so slightly, is that not the time to be there for support rather than alienating her? Showing her that I'm the better option?
Curtis, let me quote back a few things you said:
"On Sunday morning, she confirmed that she is still in contact with OM3 and does not plan to end contact."
"talks and/or texts with him daily"
"Apparently, the feelings for OM3 and the “in love” A fog are too strong."
"It’s clear he is more important to her than me, our MR, and our family right now."
"She wrote that she sees how hard I’ve tried and how much I’ve changed. Yet, attraction has not returned."
"She wrote she can’t see a future together right now. "
"said she hasn’t felt like we were separated and she was completely off on her own. She wants to “feel separated."
In summary, she's still in an affair, she feels stuck to you even though you are separated and she wants to be on her own and "feel separated". HER FOG HAS NOT LIFTED ONE IOTA. This is not the time to try and be her best friend, because that is where you will stay. You want to show her you are the better option? Cut all contact with her. Tell her to get her horse out of there ASAP. Tell her you want her to respect your privacy and quit dropping by unannounced. Maybe then she will learn to miss you, because right now, she doesn't.
Curt,
Ummmmmm......Are you punking us? If so you got me!! I get it you are hitting us with an episode of DB Forum Punk'ed.
But just in case you aren't punking us, I have to say I can see how your WW is not attracted to you. Your actions are very unattractive. You haven't DB or used any of Sandi's Rules for dealing with WWs. You are just floating in la la land.
People are on here pleading with you to DB and take actions that show your WW you are a strong and attractive man, and from some reason every post from you is about some form of hope.
What happens if your WW does come back, tomorrow because she breaks up with OM3? let me tell you, she finds OM4, because she is still WW. And you are so focused on her, and getting her back that you aren't listening or trying anything we are telling you.
You have been doing it your way for months now with no head way. We tell you to DB and drop to rope, so in the event your WW does come back, she comes back to a strong and confident man, that don't put up with her Sh$T. But you are so keen on not losing a person that is already gone that you are pushing further away from you.
IMO, you seem to be a very selfish person, let me explain, I think getting your W back is all about you, she's telling you want she wants, but you are trying to force her to do something she doesn't want to do at the moment. And you are relentless. That's a very unattractive position to be in and your WW seems to be fed up with it. That's were her actions are showing you. Her words are keeping you strung along for the stable benefit you provide.
CURTIS...........................................WAKE UP!!!!!!
Joejoe
Uhh.... Tell her to get on her fawkin horse, go west, and ride into the fastasy fog sunset. Curtis. Maybe you should watch Pet Cemetery a few times to see what happens when you bury your wife and keep digging her up again. (Alright Ill try not to be an A hole.) I get moments in my day where I feel like my life is over, I want to end it all, and them, Ill never be good enough, I can't change, I don't have a future, I'm mad, angry, resentful, forgiving, understanding, compassionate, all in the same 10 minutes...Every time this happens and my mind goes crazy about how to emotionally handle it. I eat something (Because I get negative and depressed when I'm hungry.) I say out loud. " I release you, I let you go, you no longer have power over me, my thoughts and my emotions. Then I tell myself, I must change. I must heal, and I must release this anger and stay commited to the process. I am without therapy, I have a very short temper, am a very emotional person, with a very low frustration tolerance, and a racing anxious mind with a lot of guilt from all of my relationships. I must contain and monitor my emotions, correct my internal dialog, rebuild myself and my confidence, and focus on exclusively me, what I can control, and how I show up. etc. These are just states, and old repetitive habits Curtis. Thinking about what was, is not what currently is, and we need to be aware of that. People want to be where they want to be for whatever reason they justify, right, wrong, or indifferent, and we must leave them there. But we can protect ourselves, and respond firmly with dignity, without being reactive facetious, OR WEAK!!! YOU ARE THE PRIZE CURTIS! You just don't realize it yet! Love is a choice and attraction dies for numerous reasons. Being a doormat, insecure, co dependant, needy, not enforcing boundaries, placating, words not matching actions, represent, bordeom, narcissistic behavior, delusional realities, take your pick. Control the frame, control your emotions, control your current reality, control your situation. She is never going to respect you if she lost it for you, and went WW. At this point in the game it shouldn't matter. She shouldn't matter. Her respect for you or opinion for you shouldn't matter. Have a backbone, keep your morals, your strength, your castle and your example for your kids. Don't ever give your strength to someone that no longer wants you. I've been weak plenty of times and strong plenty of times in my marriage, and my past relationships. No consistency. No respect.
I would even go as far finding a place to house/ rent a stable for the horse, and send her the bill. Arrange a public place locally for you to exchange the kids. Don't respond to chit chat, random phone calls or text messages. Don't allow her near the property unless she is legally entitled to. She is treating you like garbage that was thrown away in yesterdays trash heap. Set those boundaries and enforce them.
Nice post, IHCLACS. I completely agree with you.
Thanks Thornton. The pimp in me comes out every now and again, and confidence and self respect briefly comes back when we know we can handle whatever comes at us, after all of us going through this step by step. All of us. Together. I love you guys. Curtis. Let this be a lesson. Not from me but from your W. NMMNG!!!! I gotta learn not to be such a hard@$$ at times and emotionally weak at others. Find the balance Curtis. Find something to do with yourself. Daydream about your future without W. Think about the endless freedom, the peace and quiet, the emotional stability, the non dramatic events. Just rest. Just you. Just you healing. Just your purpose. Just your wants, your rules, your principles, your desires. You are starting over again. So make it a good one to grow. Wolf. I hope you are getting this too, and all the other souls here that are hurting, She can't being you happiness. Only you can buddy, ironically its what attracts others to us, and it is also what repels people too when we are sour grapes, complacent, weak, etc. Repeat after me:
"I am not for everybody, and everybody is not for me. I have the power to own up to my mistakes, fix them, remind myself daily that I am a good person. I must forgive others, and myself, and let go, but respect myself enough not to allow others to manipulate me."
Hi Curtis,
Sounds like the worst--she's still into OM3, and you're still hanging onto crumbs as Plan C.
W and I did complete most of the Retrouvaille dialogue questions this past week. We met on Tuesday and Friday to go over our responses with each other. On Tuesday, we covered the first 2 questions and she was still writing out her answers as I arrived. In her defense she had a tough week at work and was trying to solve a major problem on her own. So, I understood why she didn’t have time to be prepared in advance. On Friday, she had 1 of the 2 questions complete when she came over. One of the questions she answered was what good quality did you discover about your spouse during the Retrouvaille weekend? She answered that she felt inspired by my amazing capacity to forgive. She hopes that she will be able to forgive similarly. It seems to me that she has either felt my forgiveness for the lies and cheating or is trying to soften me up for forgiveness for these actions in the future. I have not forgiven for everything yet.
W came over yesterday to feed the horses and pick up the kids. She stayed for a few hours. I noticed she’s leaving her phone sit around more and is checking it less often lately. We started talking about Retrouvaille and she still doesn’t want to attend the post sessions, yesterday would have been the first post. I asked if we were still going to try to do the course work on our own as she suggested last weekend and she said maybe. She doesn’t seem to have a strong desire to do the work. She said the writing takes time and maybe it would be easier to talk about some questions. It doesn’t appear to me that she is making this a priority, her heart just isn’t in it and I’m not going to force her to do the work.
W told me she bought a desk at a garage sale for the other house. I must of had a look on my face of displeasure and W noticed.
W: “What, I see that look on your face?”
H: “It seems like you plan on being there a while.”
W: “I feel pressure and that you have expectations of me. I want zero expectations.”
H: “I don’t know what we’re doing with the Retrouvaille then. Im not expecting anything from you. I’ve been waiting for you to tell me that you’ve ended it with the OM.”
W: “I did end it. I haven’t seen him in over a month and I’ve been NC for a week and a half.”
H: “So, a couple days before we attended Retrouvaille?”
W: “Yes”
H: “Why did you tell me at the weekend that there was still contact.”
W: “I didn’t know if it was over at that time and if he would try to contact me again.”
H: “Would you share how you went NC?”
W: “No, it was messy and he was angry. I feel bad for hurting him.” —> (Thinking to myself: Really, hurting him, WTF?! What about the hurt inflicted on your H and family?)
W: “That doesn’t mean I want to come back and work on us. I’m still on the fence deciding which side to come down on.”
H: “Are you waiting for your feelings to come back?”
W: “Yes”
H: “That could take a very long time like many months.” —> (this reminded me of one of Starsky’s posts, see below)
W: “Am I just supposed to come back and hope my feelings return? I completely checked out last October. If I felt like I did a year and a half ago even, then it would be so much easier to come back.”
H: “I don’t want to go back to a year and a half a ago. We can build something so much better now.”
W: “I agree, but you know what I mean. I realize that a decision needs to be made at some point one way or the other. I can’t come back and decide a year from now it’s not what I wanted. I can’t do that to the kids, you, or myself.”
H: “I know, it’s a lot to think about and you want to be sure you are making the best decision for everyone.”
“Love is a Decision” vs. “Feelings”
In my situation (and in advising others who are at the stage you are at), I try to understand an important distinction:
FEELINGS -- romantic, "IN-love-with-you" feelings -- will take several months and even a couple of years to return following an affair. That was depressing for me to hear that when I was just starting to attempt reconciliation with my wife, and I in fact denied it was true, but it took a good 2-3 years for my wife's feelings of love and respect for me to return, and vice-versa.
The DECISION however to do what is necessary to repair the marriage following an affair is just that -- a DECISION. It should take no more than 5 minutes to decide -- certainly not more than 24 hours. Whenever my wife would say "I don't know if my feelings for you will ever return," I would say "I understand that and I'm willing to be very patient in that regard -- it could take many, many months. But whether or not you're willing to do this short list of things that I say I need at this point, to me, isn't about feelings. It's a DECISION that you need to make, if you want to remain married to me."
Maybe that's just me, but the "fog" doesn't need to be fully lifted in order for a formerly wayward spouse to decide on full no-contact and transparency and working on their marriage with their betrayed spouse.
W still doesn’t understand that love is a choice and once you fully commit, the feelings can follow. This was one of the reasons I was hoping she would stick with the Retrouvaille program as that concept is a primary point that is emphasized.
W rounded up the kids and she initiated another short exchange as she left.
W: “When I come back you’re going to be checking my phone all the time because of the cheating and it will be a different kind of pressure.” —> (first time I recall her using the word cheating, of course, she doesn’t feel it was cheating because she was done with the MR a year ago.)
H: “I never checked your phone or texts prior to BD.”
W: “You never had a need to, there was nothing to worry about.”
H: “You’re right, I had complete trust in you. It’s unhealthy for me and you if I have to check on your whereabouts or constantly be looking at your phone. Frankly, I won’t want to once I feel like I can trust you again.”
Between this last exchange about transparency and her earlier comments about being able to forgive, it seems she’s trying to set me up for massive rug sweeping. She doesn’t want to share all of the truths about what has happened. I feel she is assessing how painful it would be to come back and how difficult I will make it for her to just slide back into the MR. I’m sure this wouldn’t fly with many on the board.
I do believe she is currently NC with the OM. Will it last? Who knows, relapses seem common around here. W’s behavior has changed, less importance on the phone, more focus on the kids, and more gratitude towards me. However, she has also crawled into a shell and wants to be alone often. She has spent more time over the past month riding her horse, watching a lot of Netflix, and working on projects at her separation house. She seems to be going through OM withdrawal, grieving the end of the A, and feeling guilty for hurting him.
She asked for zero expectations and the feelings aren’t there for me right now. I will wait for her to initiate contact. When she reaches out I need to take it easy and not get my hopes up. I’ve had a problem with expecting too much too soon on up cycles. I’ve read it here many times, I press for more and it pushes her away rather than remaining patient and allowing her to come to me, i.e. wait for the cat to jump onto my lap.
This is the mantra I need to follow:
NO PRESSURE, NO PURSUIT, RESPECT, ATTRACTION!!!
I like the last sentence. You'll be more attractive when you start getting out of the house and stop chasing her around.
Start taking back your respect! Do any of your buddies know how much you have endured? My guess is no b/c they would be all over you!
LH smacks his face with palm of his hand.
As far as your mantra the first two your definitely doing and the last two are never going to happen based on the first two.
If though you have been here a year I think it's time to go back to the extreme basics and you should print off Sandi's 37 rules and try to follow I don't know maybe 5 of them.
So here we start again...
Welcome to the forum, I´m neffer...
Read what Cadet posted on the welcome message. Start from there.
Time and patience. Get into amoafwl. Believe nothing that they say...detach, GAL GAL GAL GAL GAL and keep no expectations.
Curtis, you have been the pursuer all this time. You need to be the prey.
DB man, please DB.
(((C)))
W came over yesterday to feed the horses and pick up the kids. She stayed for a few hours.
Curtis, it sure seems like I'm repeating myself a lot here but she is never, ever going to learn to miss you as long as you let her swing by and hang out for hours and do whatever she wants. Until you remove yourself from the equation you will forever be Plan B. She's never going to miss you, she's never going to be attracted to you.
It doesn’t appear to me that she is making this a priority, her heart just isn’t in it and I’m not going to force her to do the work.
But you are forcing her and applying a TON of pressure to her. It's got to stop.
W: “What, I see that look on your face?”
H: “It seems like you plan on being there a while.”
I don't mean to offend, but as a person outside your situation I read things like this and it just sounds very desperate and pathetic. You need to be projecting an air of masculinity and strength and right now you are not. If you want her back you've got to remake yourself into a strong, attractive, confident individual.
W: “I feel pressure and that you have expectations of me. I want zero expectations.”
H: “I don’t know what we’re doing with the Retrouvaille then. Im not expecting anything from you. I’ve been waiting for you to tell me that you’ve ended it with the OM.”
She's right, everything you say and do is full of expectations. You're practically begging.
W: “I did end it. I haven’t seen him in over a month and I’ve been NC for a week and a half.”
H: “So, a couple days before we attended Retrouvaille?”
W: “Yes”
H: “Why did you tell me at the weekend that there was still contact.”
Why are you cross-examining her. To be honest it's all none of your business. The two of you are separated, I'm surprised she's offering up as much info as she does. You're acting like the two of you are in a relationship but you are not.
W still doesn’t understand that love is a choice and once you fully commit, the feelings can follow.
And you don't understand that in order for her to love you again, she first has to be ATTRACTED to you again. She is not just going to choose you and say "well let's see what happens". WAS's are working off of emotions and feelings, not logic. She MUST have FEELINGS for you again before she will want you back. So ask yourself what do you think sounds more attractive to her:
A) Sad, desperate, clingy shell of a man applying constant pressure with relationship talks, letting her come by whenever she wants and spend hours, practically begging her to see the error of her ways, watching as she engages in affairs and pretends it's not happening.
-or-
B) Confident, attractive, independent man who doesn't put up with her crap, who tells her if she chooses not to be with him then he chooses to move on to better things. She wants to come by and hang out and he tells her no, that's not going to happen because we are no longer in a relationship and you can't have it both ways. She sees him dressing better, getting fit, engaging in fun activities without her. He never asks her about ANYTHING in her life because that's her mess and he's leaving her to it. He ignores all chit chat messages and tells her to limit contact to bills or the kids, period.
Right now you are A all day long. And she knows it. She's walking all over you. The good news is you can start being B right now, right this second. But you have to choose it and commit to it.
And Curtis, stop saying you are B when you are really A. That's not what I mean. You have to REALLY become B.
Hi Curtis,
W told me she bought a desk at a garage sale for the other house. I must of had a look on my face of displeasure and W noticed.
Curtis, that's an expectation and pressure. Look friend, I relate. Yesterday, my partner said, "I picked out a couch--soon we can snuggle more comfortably at my place, too!" I heard, "I love you, but I don't plan to return anytime soon." The difference is that I'd accepted the loss already--see my blogging yesterday--so instead of a sad face I replied, "I enjoy snuggling with you." I didn't temp-check. I'd already felt the loss and mourned it. I hope for more. I accept reality. I choose how I respond.
You said a few times you would tell a friend to do differently than you are doing. Are you your own friend? You should be! "So, your wife's been wayward with at least 3 OM this past year, has no feelings for you, has asked for true separation.... you should.." how would you finish that advice.. for a friend?
Curtis,
on the 15th March you wrote
it wasn’t until the beginning of March that I finally let her go and grasped the damage of my push behavior and importance of detaching.
To a degree I dislike replying to your posts, as i feel like i ( plus others ) are just bashing you... But at the same time i just want to help you snap out of this la la land you chose to exist in. I use the word exist, and until you move on, you really are not living.
Look at all the replys after your post last week.. About 10 people replied, but you came on here to go into the details on your chats with WW..
I look back at my initial posts and i cringe at what i wrote. I believe i felt like that at the time, but 9 months later i am a different person and realise i saw my relationship / WW wearing rose coloured glasses. I learnt so much from advise on here and my life is so much better than it was 9 month ago. I look better, i feel better and apart from the WW using the children to try and control me, i am in a better place. An amazing place even..
I just hope that at some point ( sooner rather than later ) you will snap out of la la land...
C,
I think the reason why everyone gets frustrated with you is because you get great advice and ignore it. Plus in nearly a year you have made zero progress. That’s why we are trying to get you to start now with the basics because you are causing more damage with the pursuit and pressure then you realize. Start DBing today.
When I posted about Retrouvaille a week ago, many of the replies were that she was still in an A and I needed to cut her off completely. I sensed something different, she had changed ever so slightly. I can’t expect her to come running back immediately, although I had hopes as I was reaching the end of my tolerance for living in an open MR.
I hear all of you crystal clear. It seems I am back at square one. If W has ended her A’s with the OM for good, then does that make her a WAW rather than a WW?
I know the same rules apply, but at least I don’t have to endure the pain of being cheated on. I’ve had several starts and stops with DBing in my sitch. I allowed many triggers to set me back. These were mostly due to new revelations surrounding her interactions with the OM.
I disagree that I’ve made zero progress in the past year. W has noticed my 180s. I am more detached. I don’t spy or snoop anymore. Once I found out the worst, I stopped that behavior. I’m sure DBing is easier when the LBS is not being actively betrayed. Believing that the A is over has sure had a calming effect on me and should allow for greater patience with time and space.
I really have tried to follow much of the advice given here. I need to follow the guidance Master Yoda: “Do or do not. There is no try.”
The 2x4’s are well deserved. I do feel re-inspired and more confident today and will do my best to DB.
C,
What makes you so sure she has stopped the affair?
I think there is another important fact that you seem to forget is that she doesn't want to be with you and is not attracted to you. She is keeping you on the hook as plan b while she seeks out OM4, 5 and 6.
What do her ACTIONS of buying a desk for her house tell you?
What are these 180s you speak of?
C,
DB 101:
Believe nothing they say and only half of what they do
Time + Space
Respect + Attraction
Validation + Listening
GAL
Boundaries
You don't know whether or not she is in an A. You don't have a way of knowing. She lied about the affair, what's another lie at this point? Focus on DB 101.
If W has ended her A’s with the OM for good, then does that make her a WAW rather than a WW?
WW is more of a mindset, WW's are rebellious and tend to push away loved ones (including their children) to pursue a GGW lifestyle. WAW's are just kind of "over" their marriage, they just don't want to be married to the LBS anymore and they usually don't even know why. They're just done. But WAW's usually don't push their children away, so at least in my opinion that's usually the biggest litmus test. Now both of them don't consider themselves married anymore after BD. So to them they're not engaging in an "affair" especially if they've already separated. The marriage doesn't exist anymore to them, it's just a nuisance written down on paper somewhere. So while the LBS looks at an affair as a despicable act, to the WAS it's just them "moving on".
With that said, no matter whether she's a WW or WAW the real question isn't "is the A over" because she can easily engage in another or go back to the previous one on a moment's notice. The real question is this- is she invested in making the M work? And of course in your case she's not, which is the point we've been trying to get through to you. She's not trying 100%, or 50%, or 10% or even 1%. She's just not. She doesn't want that right now. Will she ever? That depends on what you do moving forward.
Oh boy,
Come on Curtis!!!!!
You aren't listening are using the advice here, that is evident from your comments you are leaving on your thread. I told you, you are applying to much pressure in my prior post. Guess what you still are doing that behavior.
You have 180 the things you wanted to 180. How about you 180 applying pressure, how about 180 applying DB advice. Because you aren't using them at the moment.
Every post you write has a hint of, "my wife has done this minuscule thing" and then you jump to acting like the M might be back on. She told you that RV was too much pressure and you follow up with trying to get her to work on the assignments. You can't force a person to be with you.
You are talking about the A being over, and how it's has made you feel better knowing the A is over. WHAT!!!!! If you were DBing her A and whatever she's doing wouldn't be bothering you.
You say things like, " I’m sure DBing is easier when the LBS is not being actively betrayed." This is one of the main reasons to DB. Making a statement like that shows your progress!!! It's not that much.
So let's add it up:
We told you to get rid of the horses or let your WW know she needs to come get her horses: Horses are still at your home.
We said, stop interacting with your WW and talking about your R and M: Just this past weekend end, you spent the weekend talking about exactly that.
We told you to stop applying pressure: Just this weekend you ramp up the pressure.
We told you to you need time and space away from your WW: You spent this weekend practically begging her to come back to you.
We told you to work on getting your respect back: You spent this weekend losing respect.
So, you haven't work to gain your RESPECT back, you haven't gave her TIME or SPACE, you haven't stopped the R and M talks, you haven't stopped applying PRESSURE, you haven't gotten rid of the horses or told her she needs to come and find a place for them (which in my opinion is an excuse for you to see your WW).
So where are the changes happening at. You profess you have 180ed some behaviors, which ones?
Joejoe
, you haven't gotten rid of the horses or told her she needs to come and find a place for them (which in my opinion is an excuse for you to see your WW).
This would be an amazing actiony 180. If you're willing to do anything, would you try this?
Dude, you told her you have zero expectations and yet you're telling us that you did have expectations for R'ville...can't have it both ways.
You need to drop the rope ASAP and stop chasing her. Make your own plans as often as you can.
Curtis, brother!
What are you doing mate? Wake up!
You've got the creme de la creme of this forum telling you what to do.
You're asleep, and the very best this forum has to offer is banging down your door, but you seem to be rolling over in bed and saying you'll be up soon, or have already gotten up.
Wake the f@#k up brother!
Everyone here cares about each other, and everyone wants you to wake up.
There's a sleeping giant inside you. The vets see it, but right now, you don't.
It's the eleventh hour mate.
You're a good man. Good luck, D
Never is too late C. Trust yourself. First thing you need to do is regain your own respect. You need to shine bright for your children. Be the lighthouse, stand up and shine.
Respect!
I hear all of you crystal clear. It seems I am back at square one. If W has ended her A’s with the OM for good, then does that make her a WAW rather than a WW?
I know the same rules apply, but at least I don’t have to endure the pain of being cheated on. I’ve had several starts and stops with DBing in my sitch. I allowed many triggers to set me back. These were mostly due to new revelations surrounding her interactions with the OM.
Curtis, you have never got past square one. A good start at square one would have been to detach and reduce contact. You did neither unless it was instigated by your WAW.. You have allowed her to cake eat from day 1, always on her terms. People have been saying to get rid of the horse for 6 months, yet you allow her to pop round and carry on as normal. She has the best of both worlds.
You tried to justify your actions by saying you were fighting for the M for the sake of the children. Most people get that "mind set" but again, its proven time, time and time again that your "fighting for the M" wont work.
You say on one of your posts that you are anayltical and spent hours and hours going through the posts of peopke hand picking the ones where their actions have made a positive impact on a WAW.. Yiou found a couple of positive examples but in the process you chose to ignore the other 1000s of posts where generally people dont ride off into the sunset on a horse.
You are verging on obsessed with making your M work, but the stats really are not in your favour, but you chose to ignore the fact that only 2% of these sitchs make M 2.0 work after 5 years.. And you are no where near Marrige 2.0..
You have the best Vets on this board advising you on every post, but you chose to ignore their "expect" advice.. They have been here for a long time, have first hand experience and have seen people like us come and go all the time.. Yet you chose to ignore this advice because of feel the fact your WAW is no longer messaging OM3, or because she hugged you because her friends husband died etc.
This may come across as harsh, but in my eyes you are verging on obsessed with your WAW. You dont listen to her, you ignore the advice here and you carry on doing anything and everything you can to persue her.. A lot of people of this board have been there, but i dont many that are still barelly trying to detach after this amount of time... After 9 months of her not wanting you, it kinda comes across as a little obsessive / stalkerish.
Hey Curtis,
I saw your post on Blu’s thread. How about giving us some updates before you send any letters.
DO NOT send any missives to your wife at this time! You want her back? The only way that you will have a fighting chance of her even thinking of returning is to let her go. Your expectations need to be lowered to zero. You have to drop the rope, practice detachment and living your life as if she isn't coming back. Many of them, when they see that you are moving on w/your life, will begin to take notice that they may lose you. Right now, you are sending her all of the messages that she needs to know that you are still out there waiting for her.
Leave her be! Give her the time and space she needs to work through her issues. If you don't, you will lost her completely and she will not even consider returning to the relationship. Drop the rope! Keep the focus on you, do things for you and yes, to keep your mind off of what she's doing. She's going to do whatever she needs to do to figure herself out. You didn't break her, therefore you can't fix her. She has to do the hard work in order to do that.
Please, please do not send anything to her. It will not help at this time.
A question for you.....I am curious....Why are you here if you are not going to listen to the people who are posting to you? You want to save your marriage? Then please start listening to the people who are posting to you. The advice that they've been providing is golden.
I haven't sent anything. I am listening to the advice here. However, I am no longer certain that I want to save my MR. I don't want her (who she is now) back. If she was even somewhat like my W from a year or more ago, then maybe. I want to move forward with my life with or without her, i.e. working on R or working towards D. Not living in limbo.
The Retrouvaille hangover didn't last long. We completed two dialogue sessions the first week after RV. Then once more last Saturday. Her effort was half-a$$ed during each meeting. She is not motivated to work on it. Last Sunday, she spent the night with OM3.
She wasn't truthful about breaking it off with OM3. She said it was over and it ended badly. Well, he actually dumped her because she was out of contact for 17 hours during the RV weekend. She called me controlling, but this guy can't go half a day without her checking in or he goes ballistic on her.
After she ran back to OM3, I gathered some intel. Here are excerpts of WW's text exchange with OM3 the day after RV.
OM3: You F'n liar, you never cared about me.
WW: I do. But doesn't matter actually. It matters how you feel. And I guess I don't make you feel loved. I'm sorry for that.
OM3: I regret anything I ever told you that matters to me! My daughters name, why me and my mom don't talk, any and everything! Because you don't give a F! You showed it Saturday and you opened my eyes, thank you.
WW: Wow. That hurts...okay.
OM3: My XW was at least woman enough to tell me she was f'n someone else! Unlike you, making up s***! I've never been s*** to you. I want to die and just be gone from here. You will be the last person to ever hurt me.
WW: Please don't. You will never be nothing to me.
OM3: I'll F XW before I F you again.
WW: Well you never got over her anyway
OM3: G F yourself b****. Don't confuse me for you and Curtis. Again. Still can't admit it. I hope your life goes to hell.
OM3: F you WW! You proved what I was to you Saturday! Deny it all you want, Curtis owns your heart! Curtis wasn't coaching 17 straight hours you MF whore. I'm going to [explicit, explicit, explicit] another b**** and I promise I'm going to send you pictures.
OM3: Disappear from my life you piece of s****!!! I've never ever regretted anyone!!! But I regret you!
WW: Yessir if that is what you want
OM3: Everything I ever told you, I regret it! I regret every picture of my daughter I sent you. I regret you even knowing her name.
OM3: You'll be getting pictures soon. I'm about to line them up. Not just one. You said you'd never hurt me and you did, intentionally! F you, Curtis and his parents, you g'dam slut!
OM3: F you!!!!! F you!!!!! I wish the worst for you! If anyone deserves it, it's you. You deserve s***! That's what you deserve. You deserve to lay in s*** and lose everything. That would make me smile again.
OM3: Look your kids in the face and tell them the only reason they were born was so you could get a f'n horse! Do that. You will hate me and regret me! I told you to never ever cross me.
WW: What purpose would that serve? Hurting children? Doesn't change the fact that I love them.
OM3: Your kids are better off without you. I F'N HATE YOU MORE THAN YOU CAN IMAGINE. Your excuses are beyond ridiculous and you're just pulling s*** out of your a$$.
WW: I have thought that on more than one occasion...my kids better off without me. Without any help from you.
All of that and she goes back to him on Sunday? Maybe it is true love and they are soulmates. He sounds like a real psychopath to me. Is this just manipulation and guilt that he is trying to lay on her? Does anyone think my W is in real danger or this guy could harm my kids? If so, I don't really care about what happens with my MR. I'll tell her family (dad and sister), maybe they will care enough to take action and save her from this monster, because she certainly hasn't let me save her.
I've been very dim with her for the past week and a half. About one text a day, only about the kids. I have been cordial and distant when we are together for kid exchanges. S8 had a baseball game on Thursday. W was texting the entire time, even when S8 was up to bat. It seems to be back on with the OM hot and heavy. Intel also indicates that she may have been with OM2 the day after the RV weekend. I don't want her around me. She lies to everyone.
If we D, I would want to start with the non-contested route. This is why I don't just go ahead and file. There needs to be an agreement on custody and fiances, then we file jointly. I've been rehearsing my script that was posted here a few months ago:
"This isn't working for me anymore. I respect and accept your decision to not make our MR a priority. I would have preferred to work things out, but I realize that is not what you want. I respect myself too much to continue waiting for someone that doesn't want to be with me. I have decided to move forward with my life. I hope we can agree on custody and finances and make this process as simple as possible. [I hand her the asset list so she can decide what she wants to keep]. I have to go, see you later."
Then, I follow-up with a short email containing an electronic copy of the asset list:
"I don’t want to live in limbo, it’s not fair to confuse the kids, and if you are planning on filing for divorce, then let’s get going so I can move on with my life. Know that this is not what I want, but if this is the only way you can be happy, I won’t stand in your way."
I'm strongly debating why I don't take this action right now. She is just not a good person the way she is now. Who knows if she will be a person that I would want to be with in the future. Would it be wrong to D her while she is in this dark place on her journey? I just don't have the energy, I feel like giving up, her choices are sucking the life out of me. I'm sick and tired of being disrespected and taken advantage of. Part of me wants to wait until the anniversary of BD, that I stood strong for 1 year. Gave her ample time to come out of the fog. Another part of me says what for, why wait and prolong the inevitable.
That's my update. Taking the kids to an Adult/Kids Halloween Party tonight. I'm going to enjoy myself with friends and meet some new people.
This isn’t working for me anymore . I respect myself enough to let you go and move forward with my life . ( I wouldn’t give her anything else she knows why and how you feel )
Please have the horse relocated by this date ____. If the horse is not relocated by this date ____I will relocate it to here ____ and have the bill sent to your address . Thanks ( stick to this if she doesn’t take the horse move it )
Even her AP brought up the horse . She knows you ll always be there and she’s using that . Let AP apply the pressure . He sounds like a real gem . Controlling , foul mouthed and issues with his mom . Let it have its own death . Tell her to move the horse no discussion about it . If she’s answers in anger . You no longer reside here please have the horse out by this date .
Keep being dim . Short and to the point . Kids only . When you do exchanges hello and goodbye .Smile and move along .
As far as asking for a D or starting it from your post it still seems as if you put the ball in her court . I wouldn’t mention a D. Detach . Have the horse removed . GAL and stay very dim .
Just my opinion from a newbie
I am going to offer you some advice and it is up to you as to whether you want to listen or not. This latest stuff is way too fresh in your mind. Give yourself a few days and allow that pain/hurt to wash over you and then release it. If, after a couple of days, you still feel the way that you do, then you will need to make some tough decisions. Sit down, make a list of pros and cons and then go from there.
Try to remember that actions speak louder than words. I've taken the liberty to change the emails you plan to send. If you do send one...do just one and leave it at that and then give her the time and space to respond back.
"I have come to the realization that you do not want to work on the marriage. This situation isn’t working for me anymore. I respect myself enough to let you go and move forward with my life."
I would keep the asset list on hand, but not give it to her unless she's ready to move forward with a divorce. Keep your cards close to the vest for now. You want to keep things simple, but straight forward at this time.
Enjoy the party this evening.
C,
First of sorry you had to read a text exchange with your W and the biggest dueche bag that ever walked the face of the earth.
I am going to make one final plea with you to try DB. No letters, no scripts, no asset list and start simple. Make it clear with her by ACTIONS that you're done with the BS. Ask her to remove the horse from your house and absolutely no contact that doesn't involve the kids. BTW once a day is too much in my book. You also have to stop snooping.
The problem you are having right now is you are trying to force everything. You tried forcing her to stop her affairs, forced her to go to Retrouvaille and now you want to force her to make a choice. It's nor surprising at all that you failed at all these attempts. She's not ready to comeback. She's even told you that but you don't listen very well.
If you're done I totally get it. No pleas, letters, grand jestures, deals, ultimatiums. Just do it.
I can promise you if you ask her to come home and work on the M you will get kicked in the b@lls so hard you'll never get up.
Just remember that you can always pull the D papers back.
What is the purpose of texting her every day? Why not get rid of the horse?
How is a divorce going to stop her from crapping all over you?
You might feel better if you quit worrying about her affairs and stopped snooping.
After she ran back to OM3, I gathered some intel. Here are excerpts of WW's text exchange with OM3 the day after RV.
OM3: You F'n liar, you never cared about me.
WW: I do. But doesn't matter actually. It matters how you feel. And I guess I don't make you feel loved. I'm sorry for that.
OM3: I regret anything I ever told you that matters to me! My daughters name, why me and my mom don't talk, any and everything! Because you don't give a F! You showed it Saturday and you opened my eyes, thank you.
WW: Wow. That hurts...okay.
OM3: My XW was at least woman enough to tell me she was f'n someone else! Unlike you, making up s***! I've never been s*** to you. I want to die and just be gone from here. You will be the last person to ever hurt me.
WW: Please don't. You will never be nothing to me.
OM3: I'll F XW before I F you again.
WW: Well you never got over her anyway
OM3: G F yourself b****. Don't confuse me for you and Curtis. Again. Still can't admit it. I hope your life goes to hell.
OM3: F you WW! You proved what I was to you Saturday! Deny it all you want, Curtis owns your heart! Curtis wasn't coaching 17 straight hours you MF whore. I'm going to [explicit, explicit, explicit] another b**** and I promise I'm going to send you pictures.
OM3: Disappear from my life you piece of s****!!! I've never ever regretted anyone!!! But I regret you!
WW: Yessir if that is what you want
OM3: Everything I ever told you, I regret it! I regret every picture of my daughter I sent you. I regret you even knowing her name.
OM3: You'll be getting pictures soon. I'm about to line them up. Not just one. You said you'd never hurt me and you did, intentionally! F you, Curtis and his parents, you g'dam slut!
OM3: F you!!!!! F you!!!!! I wish the worst for you! If anyone deserves it, it's you. You deserve s***! That's what you deserve. You deserve to lay in s*** and lose everything. That would make me smile again.
OM3: Look your kids in the face and tell them the only reason they were born was so you could get a f'n horse! Do that. You will hate me and regret me! I told you to never ever cross me.
WW: What purpose would that serve? Hurting children? Doesn't change the fact that I love them.
OM3: Your kids are better off without you. I F'N HATE YOU MORE THAN YOU CAN IMAGINE. Your excuses are beyond ridiculous and you're just pulling s*** out of your a$$.
WW: I have thought that on more than one occasion...my kids better off without me. Without any help from you.
Wow! That is absolutely terrible the way he talked to her. I read the others advice and it seems right on point. As a woman I can tell you, if I were your WW I would be very confused right now and would panic at losing my safety net. If you just let her walk all over you and she knows you'll be there waiting, she will string you along. Don't let that happen.
Curtis, make like Nike and JUST DO IT. Your W doesn’t deserve to hear your thoughts and she won’t care anyway. If you have a plan for your life, make it happen and tell your W only what she needs to know.
Stalking her private messages is creepy, my dude. Just stop. Stop torturing yourself. Don’t just drop the rope, cut it. Good luck.