Dear all,
I finally decided to post here, though I've been reading this forum for the last few weeks. I've found great value in coming here, and even though they don't know me, at the outset wish to greet and thank members like Steve85, Still Standing, Ready to Change, Sandi2, DnJ, job and similar veterans, whose wisdom really resonates with me.
Apologies for the length and detail of my post, and focus on my XW, but I find this cathartic and a chance to vent with people who have gone through the same insidious trial by fire. I really would welcome any evaluations or insight, as I've been living in a parallel universe the last 6.5 months. Here's my story.
I'm early 40's and my XW is turning 50 very soon. We're both professionally employed in high stress jobs. We met early 2004, and fell for each other very quickly (she pursued me), and I moved in with her within a few months at her request. We married in 2013, have a 10 year old son, and I have 2 adult step kids (early 20's) from her. She was previously married, and was just finalising her divorce and settlement when we met (she initially approached me on behalf of her best friend at a club, but liked me herself, and we ended up being attracted to each other immediately and very strongly - more on the friend later). I was in my mid 20's, quite naive, and she was older and far and away very wordly.
My XW is a very dominant, gregarious, bombastic, independant, know what she wants and take charge kind of person, whereas I'm quite the other end of the spectrum. She was the one with the ideas, and I carried out the nuts and bolts of our vision, becuase I liked her vision - I thought we very much complemented each other, and we were good at what we each brought to the table. She is the sort of person who is so strong willed and independant that if she sets her mind on something, she cant be told otherwise. You could be outside looking at the sky and saying it's blue, and she'd say its pink and not listen to the reality. The behaviour I oftentimes found most baffling related to her 'bossiness' - if she wanted to do a chore, or something else, she expected me to participate with what she wanted me to do. She would also say she didn't want to have to tell me what to do, so when I would go and do something of my own accord (usually chore related), she would almost plead for me not to do it, and come and relax with her, or sit with her, because she didn't want me to do whatever I was planning to do. We often joked around about 'happy wife, happy life' and how she appreciated my easy going nature and acceptance of her 'bossiness'. Looking back now, it strikes me that from the beginning of the R, she would at random but frequent times question me as to why I wanted to be with an older woman, she's older than me, and similar things, but I would always reassure her. Mutual and very frequent displays of affection had always been huge in our R, right til the end. She was a good, strong, loving woman, and I loved her, flaws and all.
In late January 2019, I kissed my wife before going to work and when I came home, my wife was like a stranger. She was angry with me because the current home (CH) we lived in was in my sole legal name (it was formerly an investment property) and she was freaking out about that if 'something should happen between us' and 'people change when this happens'. Her eyes and face were dark - she looked different. Late in 2018, we sold our matrimonial home (MH), made a good profit, and were all ready to start our dream of flipping homes, which we'd been talking about for months, and relaxing more and enjoying life. She had this belief that the MH was hers, as was most of the proceeds of sale in our joint account, because our first home together was hers from a previous marriage, and she got an inheritance from her father years ago. About a week or 2 before, she had met up with her abovementioned friend for lunch, and had scheduled a night out the night after the argument with her friend again. I had always encouraged her to be close to her friends and see them as often as she could, even though she would sometimes cancel as she wanted to hang at home with us, or just couldn't be bothered.
Anyway, earlier that day (like only 5 hours before the meltdown), she called me excitedly at lunchtime and said she found a house we could buy and move into while renovating, and we were both happy and excited about that. It was the normal, loving 'catch up' conversation we regularly had when I was at work - I still cant fathom how within a few hours she changed so much. We'd both been a bit strained lately though because the CH was tiny and very run down, and in my view had a bad 'vibe', and the reno quotes were more than we had anticipated. We'd been forced to sleep on mattresses on the floor in the lounge room for about 2 months by that time, and my adult step daughter moved in again early January as well, due to fly in again the night of the above argument - so, 4 people sleeping on matresses in a small lounge room.
We'd also been frustrated due to lack of intimacy from her recent implant surgery and the sleeping arrangements, getting quotes to renovate, and a couple of weeks earlier my SS had run her ragged in buying him a car and having R problems with a girlfriend. Throughout 2018, she had worried quite a bit about menopause and ageing, had become very engaged with reading fiction/erotic stories on her phone in her sparetime (an issue I'd raised with her a few times as I was feeling neglected). She finished her Psychology Masters December 2018 (she had wanted to be a counsellor but changed her mind about halfway through the course). I had always supported her and mostly been the proverbial 'good husband', which she reminded me of often, but was also often critical too. We holidayed after we sold our MH, and she became very focussed on getting implants just before we went, which we did during our holiday even though we had to cancel and rebook and significantly change our itinerary. After we got back in December 2018, she wanted to get a facelift, a Vespa, a diamond ring, and a pinball machine - I got her the pinball machine the day before the abovementioned argument. She'd been encouraging me to take up fishing again, which I had, and we were going to get a boat. We'd decided after selling the home that we'd spend some money on ourselves.
After the argument, she went very cold and distant. I had experienced this before during bad arguments, where she would essentially coldly ignore me for a few days, then either apologise for being a b...h and not knowing what came over her, or things would just slide back to normal. After a week though, she took off her ring. I approached her cautiously to find out what was wrong, and the floodgates opened. From what I remember, I was told that the 'fog has lifted' (I found that really odd), we're incompatible, it's over and we're 'never, ever, ever, ever' getting back together, she has cut out people from her life before like this and never changes her mind, she has changed and her needs have changed, I haven't changed even though she's been asking me to so she needs to force a change, I'm too negative and grumpy, I don't face conflict and hide in the shadows, her kids come first, she wants adventure, she wants to hitchhike in India, she's turning 50 soon and only has 10 good years and wants to have a huge 50th bday with all her friends, I'm a great guy but we're incompatible, she resented my back injury from years ago and having to do more housework and that I didnt listen to her in getting surgery/pilates, we communicate superficially like neighbours, we're superficial, she's sick of b!tching about me to her friends, her friends an colleagues are settling in their relationships and she doesn't want to just settle, loves me but not in love, feels nothing and there's no spark or attraction, doesn't want to hug, touch or kiss me, criticised me for my testosterone issues from years ago but then said the sex was pretty good, has neglected her friends for too long, wants to focus on her kids and friends, I should get a new girlfriend and have kids as I'm younger than her and would make a great partner but not for her, she wants to be alone and never wants to live with a man again but won't close her mind to future relationships, wants to be friends and remain living together for a couple of years so we can still buy and flip homes for 'financial security' etc etc.
I tried to reason with her, but she rewrote history, and countered with very forceful but seemingly illogical arguments. She even said it was a huge 'red flag' for her during our argument the previous week that I brought up that I had helped her for years with her University assignments when I stuck up for myself and reminded how we were a partnership and helped each other as a team. She told me that when we argued in the past and she apologised she only did it because I moped and she felt like that was me trying to control her. The big focus was on her age, how her needs changed, how I haven't changed, we are incompatible, not stagnating, wanting to be with friends and her kids, wanting to go on adventures and how only 'you can make you happy'. I apologised for my part in not meeting her needs for change, and was told no need to apologise and she only blames herself for not doing this sooner, and has felt this way for 2 years. I suggested counselling but she refused absolutely. She seemed very angry at herself that she hadn't ended things sooner.
We'd been to marriage counselling once in January 2018 at my suggestion after a big blow up with my step son. We went once, and then she didn't want to go anymore, and went back to normal. I found it odd she just abruptly stopped but I continued about 2 or 3 times though.
The head spin was only heightened about 2 months after when she left a personalised astrology report lying around which I read briefly but had to put down. It had day by day readings for the next couple of years (more like this is what you can expect to happen today and what you should and shouldn't do). It spoke of a very strong sense that 2019 for her was a huge year of change, that her source of happiness was her, reconnect with friends, and not let anything stand in her way for change and personal happiness. I asked her about that, and she told me that it was 'just a report' that she ordered when we sold our MH in October 2018 and read from time to time. I noticed too immediately after her ending our marriage that she was getting online tarot and horoscope readings, reconnecting with friends from her early years, and listening to Landslide by Fleetwood Mac.
After she ended it, I took it hard, but kept it absolutely to myself. I didn't pursue, snoop, try to change her mind or anything like that. I found Larry B very early, and his MLC theory really resonated with what I was going through. At nearly all times I think I maintained an outward display of positivity, calmness and dignity and didn't really question/argue any of her actions or words. I noticed when she wasnt working (she works evenings on weekends) she became even more engrossed with reading stories on her phone (she'd lie in bed for 4 or 5 hours doing this), and started going out with all the friends she 'neglected'. She acted as though nothing happened, and appeared very happy. She spent lots of money buying clothes and other stuff online which seemed way too young for her. She went on a weight loss binge, diet shakes laser treatment and her and my step daughter acted like I didn't exist, carrying on with laughing and giggling like teenagers and planning their holiday (they even played the Arian Grand song about breaking up with your boyfriend in front of me, whihc I ignored). A week or so later, I was told they'd booked a month long adventure holiday overseas and that our son would have to catch a bus after school to my work and wait til I finished so I could take him home - that absolutely stunned me. He's too young to be unaccompanied, which she knew.
I went along with her desire to live together and we looked at houses to buy and renovate. She made it clear several times it was for financial security and that we're never getting back together - I told her I accepted that. She pushed for a property settlement split as well, and during discussions in March I told her I couldn't live together and wanted to get my own rental home to have space to heal - she immediately said she was relieved I'd said that as she realised and was going to say she couldn't live with me either and also needed to heal (though 5 minutes earlier she said she was so happy). A few weeks earlier, I'd questioned the reality of living together as housemates when she pressed me for a decision. This enraged her, and told me she'd 'f..k me over before I did' and take all our money, and robotically repeating how the money was hers because of her inheritance, its the only good thing from her father, I had nothing when we met, etc. I'd never seen such rage, and her face physically changed, with the 'shark eyes' Larry said to watch out for. I was very mindful of not engaging with the monstering again, though we did have a few flare ups later which she agitated when discussing asset split and our son. She did apologise once a few days after she called me a 'money hungry c..t'. I adopted a position of letting it all wash over me and not reacting, as I knew deep down this wasn't the real her, and any reaction would inflame things. Indeed, my step daughter intervened once and told her mum off for her behaviour. On a couple of occassions, she championed her hated XH by telling me that at least he looked after her financially. Ironic, as early in our relationship they were so bad I had to comfort her and act as intermediary. I think she beleived that when she split with me, I would become some kind of maniac and make it very difficult - I think she had to get a restraining order against her XH. I imagine she was surprised when I didn't, and instead accepted what she was saying and told her how much I appreciated all she had done as wife and mother. It hurt me deeply when she conflated me with her father/XH, as I had always been sensitive, gentle and protective of her, and told her I'm not her father or XH, I'm still me, but she didn't hear it.
I don't know what happened with her. It was like a switch was flipped (and kept flipping). I looked into her childhood. During our marriage, she had told me a few bad things, but never opened up and shut down quickly, choking up with emotion, then back to 'normal' almost instantly. She hated her father (he was physically abusive) and her mother left her father early, and my XW and her sister fended for themselves a lot of the time, with my XW taking off from home to travel the world in her late teens. Her XH physically assaulted her and her mother was doubting of that. She always talked of freedom from her parents, 'nobody tells me what to do', and the only thing she learned from her parents was how not to treat kids. Her mother left her father when they were young, and forged her own path - she too is a strong, wilfull lady. Her mother's motto is "me, myself and I". My XW's mantra is "only you can make you happy". From knowing her for 15 years, I know her emotional shield is do not show any weakness to anyone, best form of defense is attack, don't apologise, and always have the last word.
Its all so very odd. I went from the person she said she was lucky to have, so good to her and I cant ever leave her and wanting to grow old and die and be buried together, to a sometimes hated stranger. Maybe she went from fear of abandonment to abandoning me first? Maybe she felt we were or were becoming codependant? Maybe it all became too much and I was the relief valve? She only told her mother a few months after this all happened. Her mother called me and said she was told I had verbally abused the kids which was why she left me. Her mother had a huge fallout, and she said my XW was just like her father and would end up like her father - all alone. They had another huge argument last month, and my XW spent 10 mins giving me the details, to which I listened quietly, she concluding she really only wanted to call me to tell me our son can't stay there anymore overnight.
I ended up moving out in April for my own emotional sanity. One moment I was persona non grata, the next moment she'd want to share a drink and watch telly and joke around like we used to. She wanted me to stay a little longer, saying there's no rush, and I'd always be part of her life - I told her I no longer live here, and this is the reality of her decision. As I was packing, I noticed she kept a huge bundle of love letters, romantic notes and cards that I had given her over the years - that really choked me up, but I didn't say anything. She wanted me to keep the CH, but I didn't want it. We share care of my son, and my XW and SD stayed with me for 2 weeks whilst the CH was being renovated. She was very normal during that period, and a couple of times seemed nostalgic even. She questioned me and I told her parts of my journey of healing, self discovery, my childhood issues and my inroads with my own psychological/childhood analysis and reflection in relation to my negativity, reactivity, emotional makeup and fear of conflict.
She seemed enthralled by what I've learned, and invited me a few times for dinner to her home to talk about it. Last time, as we stood in her kitchen talking, she said I looked amazing (whilst playing with her hair and earrings) and that her sister said the same (I'd been working out as it energises me). She wanted to keep catching up and talking about personal development and psychology over a whiskey or 2 - I said maybe. All up, we spoke about 4 times about this psychology stuff for about an hour each time. I noticed 3 things which made me feel empowered - she was seemingly enraptured, I did most of the talking without much interruption or judgment or change of subject from her, and she actually validated what I was saying. She had always complained 'we don't communicate' to which I'd reply I'd listen to her but when I wanted to speak, she wouldn't be attentive, be dismissive, would interrupt with her own comments, and then change the topic, or just look bored. She acknowledged this flaw many times, but never really changed. At the end of one of these recent talks about me, she said she still loves me (she's said this a few times on random occassions), but choked up and said I was 'closed off and emotionally unavailable and she couldn't take it any more', then abruptly left. After reading this forum, I'm not sure if I should continue with telling her these things though as maybe this is R talk? I did see though this as maybe being a 180 in showing emotional intelligence.
She tells me she's only hanging around with one or 2 friends now, and her other friend and her do pub trivia, and both wanted me to go with them so they could use my brains to win. They were all intent on salsa dancing, went once, then she got bored with it. She asked me to help her move some heavy furniture - I told her to organise a 'working bee' with all her 'friends', to which she said they all work and are busy.
Instead of her amazing huge 50th birthday party, she now wants a small dinner with a couple of friends and the kids and invited me (I said maybe). She also said she really doesn't know what she's going to do now, and maybe shouldn't have had kids (both of whihc I found very disquieting, as it was the 'old' her when she said this), and is going through menopause. I've noticed too she will repeat things over and over again. She bought a dress she wanted to show me as it was too small. Over a week, she told me that about 6 or 7 times. She has asked me several times out of the blue if I've been dating, and she's happy to do babysitting of our son. I told her truthfully I'm focusing on my own personal development. Out of the blue, she bought me expensive furniture whilst staying with me and told me if she won lotto she'd give me half because she can be a 'nice person'. In contrast, the other day she said angrily she wanted me to pay for our sons after school care whilst shes on holidays because I didn't pay her for fuel in picking up my son from school when I'm at work (saying this mere seconds after excitedly showing me her bathroom renos). Recently, she told me I'm a good man and great father and she didn't regret marrying me (previously during a rage saying she was an idiot for marrying her XH and a f'wit for then marrying me). She's always had a bit of a no filter 'stream of consciousness' talk style, but this has increased quite markedly.
We'd both visited psychics (we both enjoy psychics). She'd booked 2, but cancelled the 2nd as I think she liked the first one's reading. She said hers told her that I'd find a woman with a Uni Degree and be very happy - I said that'd be nice. She was also told there was a 'possible future' and she would flip houses and sell to old people who like smaller houses. Shes done that to the CH. We were going to demolish it as it was so bad, but she has superficially renovated it and ignored all the structural issues - I found her doing that to be financial suicide. My psychic said she has depression/anxiety with historic learned passive/aggression and that she is angry with herself, not me. I was also told she has a dark aura, and our auras were not in sync anymore and unless she got counselling there was no hope. My XW was always very mindful and acknoweldges not being empathetic at all, and after we separated thanked me for showing her how to be empathetic and easy going. According to Larry's theory, spouses are drawn together by similar painful childhood energies, and I think ours was abandonment.
Currently, I struggle with detachment. I understand the concept and rationale, but find it terribly difficult to apply the techniques and distance my ruminating thoughts. I was doing well in April and May, then regressed, and have found it difficult to get back on my feet. I lift weights, walk a lot, fish, go to the mall and window shop, bike ride, meditate and read about self improvement, as well as keep a schmick house. I'm thinking of doing Larry's enviromnental changer course, and have been seeing an IC for a few months. Reflecting, I do struggle with attachment issues to the closest people in my life at the time, which I trace to my childhood (things were recently revealed which I had forgotten or didnt know about). I really struggled with the suddeness and absoluteness of her change - we had everything mapped out. I don't like sudden change - I like stability, routine and predictability. I suppose I've come here to tell my story, get some views on what happened with her (ie is this MLC?), and perhaps some support if possible.
To my XW I present as having accepted, moved on and improved myself. There was no begging, pleading, pressure, crying or guilting from me. I knew based on what she's like that she would see this as weakness and view it with contempt, and its not my style anyway. We both choked up a few times when talking though during moments of normality. I resolved very early I would 180 on what I think she expected me to do (ie be like her father or XH), plus the fact when I go, it's going to be with a clear conscience in having taken the higher road, and being bad to women no matter how bad they are to me is not my nature, especially as she was my wife and the mother of my son.
I don't really communicate at all unless to answer a text or call, no R talks, and I continue to validate her with all her problems that pop up. I was always pretty good at this, and nearly every time after she finished work she would vent with me for sometimes up to an hour, or vent about her general frustrations, or bitch about her mother, sister, friends, the kids, colleagues etc etc. I 180'd with my negativity and procrastination around her, and tell her everything is fantastic, her renos are great, the problems she has with tradesman will work out, I'm doing well etc. As another 180, I've just reconnected with my step son, who was a huge source of conflict during the M (probably accounted for 90% of our R fights, and triggered in me an immense amount of anxiety) and who had huge problems himself. I nearly teared up when he told me I was more of a father to him than his own dad and how he had changed over the last year for the better and is the man he's becoming because of me. Ironically, a few years ago my XW kicked him out when he was 17 as he called her the worst thing you can say to a woman. I was stunned though that for about 6 months she wanted nothing to do with him and very cold and distant to him. She acted to him like she acted to me after separation - cold, calculating indifference. Now, she's saying he'll come back to live with her and she doesn't want to live with my SD as they fight too much. Further irony is a few weeks ago my XW called my SD that same bad word after they had a huge fight and my SD came to stay with me for a little while as she was so upset. My XW has always been very much say whatever you want without thinking and if someone doesn't like it who cares what they think, always have the last word, and act before thinking too much just for the sake of doing something.
Thanks so much for listening and sorry for my long post. Kind regards
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Hello DS9, welcome to the forums! WOW is your W ever going through something. Sure sounds like MLC which can be triggered by menopause. It sounds like you're kind of a DB'ing natural, you've been doing a great job of giving her time and space and working on yourself and GAL'ing. The one thing that jumped out that you might want to work on is you still let her pull you back in all the time. She invites you over to talk about XYZ and you are far too quick to oblige. I would try to cut back on that and be more mysterious. It sounds like she's learning to miss you, but if you are too available then she'll take advantage of that and leave you in the friend zone. When she asks you about dating don't answer her. Just say something like "that's no longer your concern, is it." Keep in mind she's fired you as H, and as such you are no longer obligated to share details of your personal life with her (and shouldn't).
Also read the links Cadet posted, read DR, and read through the MLC forums. It will likely be a long time before she comes out of the tunnel. She'll pull you in and then push you away hard, and that will continue for quite some time if you let it. So try and work a little harder on that detachment!
I agree with AS.
I'm not sure if I should continue with telling her these things though as maybe this is R talk? I did see though this as maybe being a 180 in showing emotional intelligence.
I lean toward lots of listening and little talking for a man. Validate her feelings. You are the emotional rock.
Do not talk about, but rather show her your personal growth changes.
Keep working on your personal growth and being attractive. Seduce her back.
Read this thread and all the threads linked in the first post:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2846984#Post2846984Welcome to a great support group.
AS and R2c, thank you for your comments and welcome.
Thanks for the quotes link- I’ve already been through them they are gold. When I have a little more time I’d like to put some things to you about confidence and leadership so I could get some feedback.
Noted as to keep listening. It probably was lost in my long post but during the M I was the listener she was the talker. A complaint was we don’t communicate. When I used to talk she would glaze over and not seem interested etc. recently she said I was closed off and emotionally unavailable, and that she debriefed and vented with colleagues, not me, even though I was there for her to talk whenever she needed. Indeed when she would come home I’d go outside and greet her at the carport and she ‘d start venting from there. She would sometimes call at work and I’d always be available to talk about anything. I don’t know if this is rewriting history and or projection on her part? I don’t understand what she means by emotionally unavailable.
I thought maybe if I talked about the things I learned recently about my childhood and deeper psychological matters that would be a good thing particularly if she asked. One complaint was I never faced conflict and would disappear to our room, which I sometimes did do. I discovered this was something I did as a little boy when my parents fought and was my default reaction to conflict. I explained that discovery to her and the strategies I’d learned to confront rather than avoid, and to examine the subconscious story behind undersirable R behaviour. I told her that I had no idea how impactful our childhood is to our behaviour and an R relationship and it’s not our fault about my childhood but it’s my
Responsibility to do something to address it.
Thanks again for any feedback kind regards
I don’t understand what she means by emotionally unavailable.
Google it.
I found this Statement:
Men who work from a place that it’s all about their needs, wants, and feelings even in relation to others are unavailable. Yes it’s good to know what you want, feels and need — however in relation to others, it’s about the matching of your wants, feelings, and needs with another person’s. Not about someone else or you negating each other’s wants, feelings, and needs.
I don’t understand what she means by emotionally unavailable.
Google it.
I found this Statement
Thank you. Yes, in some ways I fit the bill, but in a lot of ways, she does too ( a few years ago, she told me point blank she'll withhold from telling me things if she thinks I wont like it). Anyway, I think the wisdom here would suggest that I don't now start talking about my things that show my 'emotional availability', and to just keep listening and validating, with perhaps a balancing act to not always be so available to hear her out considering the aspect of not slipping into the friendzone (she used to call/text at anytime at my work, sometimes several times a day)?
Gotcha too in continuing to be the 'emotional rock' - thank you - prior to coming here, I'd pictured myself as continuing to be the 'emotional wharf'. Again, I'll need to be mindful of not being in the friendzone though.
Gotcha too as to seduction - I was a real daggy dresser when she met me. Mismatched clothes etc etc. She took a knife to all that, and loved buying me clothes that she liked me to wear, though got a little offended if I didn't like it. Now, I've paralleled, but not exactly replicated, the styles she wanted me to have and bought for me. Similar but different hair cut with holding cream (never used to wear hair cream), new wrist watches, very neatly trimmed beard (she liked me with a beard, but my one now is very trimmed), tighter fitting slacks and business shirts, lots of green, blue and grey colours (she loved my green eyes and said these colours accentuate them), different cologne (never used to wear it, but now I smear it on, particularly if I know we'll have contact). I'm off to see the XW's sister in a few days - I'll dress impeccably, as I know she'll relay it to the XW. Last time I saw my SIL, she commented how nice my cologne was. I've always been a soft, slow talker, so I've continued with that too. I used to have a very sharp wit and play on words style, but I've toned that down a lot.
My very modest ego to begin with took a huge punch to the guts when at BD she told me she felt nothing and wasn't attracted to me. Up til the end, we'd both regularly told and showed each other how attracted we were to each other.
Could I get some feedback please on the 'alpha male' concept I see here so often. I was not one during the M in the typical sense. Leadership attempts by me were met with either dismissal, criticism, or overruling. Where I did say or where we agreed I'd lead and handle it, it was usually overruled. Example - just before the split, we bought her a car. I'm a very good negotiator, she's not. XW and I agreed to a price between ourselves. The dealer didnt meet it by a few thousand dollars. We agreed we'd walk, as I knew they'd chase us for the sale. As we're about to do so, the XW tells the dealer we'll take the car at their price. During the good times, we often joked how XW wore the pants, and she was grateful that I was so accommodating. She is so used to that.
Given my current sitch, I don't think a 180 on now being alpha male would work - she reacts very badly to these types of men. She communicates with something along the lines of "DS, you need to blah blah blah", and I've ignored reacting to the 'you need to' command style commentary. I'm thinking to address that, if it pops up again I'll say something like "Thanks - I'll agree to/agree to do blah blah blah, can you please do blah blah blah". Or should I address directly the 'you need to' style of commentary with her? It is mildly annoying, but I'm used to it, as that's her style for a long time.
Thanks again guys - I really value the feedback!
D,
So if I hear you correctly you are saying she reacts badly to men who like to lead and she likes to wear the pants in the family? Yet you have been submissive to her in your marriage and yet here you are on this board.
Did you read “No Mr. Nice Guy”?
Did you talk to your W after she pulled the stunt in the dealership?
Hi LH19 thanks for coming on board.
Yes, yes and yes (this is one of the reasons I thought mlc) - bad reaction really to anyone who tries to ‘lead’, unless she agrees with the path and result. Looking back, I think it’s a reaction so that she is not being controlled, and that she never wants to follow the crowd and have freedom. I remember years ago I put my foot down firmly over a small issue that I was organising and she went ballistic screaming ‘nobody tells me what to do!” I’m nearly sure she learned this reaction from her childhood experience and her father. That’s not to say I didn’t have faults because I sure did with fear of conflict negativity sometimes grumpiness and stress popping up in my behaviour but I’m turning a new leaf and focusing on fixing this.
Yes fully agree I was submissive. Id sometimes would go along to get along. It wasn’t like I sat back and did nothing as 99% of the time I was content to go along and indeed was happy with what she wanted for her or the family. 80-90% of the time I did the nuts and bolts of the work management organisation of what we were doing, particularly major purchases such as houses cars etc as well as anything that needed procedural requirements as im good with attention to detail, paperwork negotiating bargaining etc etc
With the car I can’t remember exactly. She said she just wanted to do the deal and get out of there. She was sheepish and apologetic and I wasn’t shy in expressing about my disappointment. We then had problems with the dealer not complying with the contract that I was handling and told her very firmly not to pay them any money till I sorted it and I’d pay on delivery. Guess what- she already paid half the money because the contract said it was due and she just wanted to pay them to get it done and give the dealer the benefit of the doubt and worried they would ‘do something ‘ if we didn’t pay or if I continued to hammer them to fulfill their obligations. There were a few other jaw drop moments like that and she knew she had a weakness but just couldn’t help herself sometimes. I learned to accept that this was her and she wouldn’t change and whilst I would have preferred otherwise, I realised you take the good with the bad in marriage. She could often be impulsive. When we sold our house she was worried about leaping to a decision other than our plan and sincerely asked me to keep her in check and maintain the plan. I consider myself level headed and far from impulsive.
I’ve got nmmng and dr on order from my bookstore. Looking back, I think the reason we lasted as long as we did was because I was so accommodating and easy going, plus I actually enjoyed being a ‘nice guy’ and doing nice things as often as I could for my XW, as she had so many great qualities as well.
The reason I raise the leadership/alpha male dynamic was not to whinge about it but to get feedback on my sitch given how often veterans here like yourself almost always seem to say don’t be a beta, be an alpha because that’s what women end up wanting. Could you point me to anyone here who has a vaguely similar dynamic to me?
Thanks again
Yeah pretty much every guy on here lol.
It all starts with respect. An alpha male will always stay true to his beliefs and values and will never allow anyone to disrespect him. The event you were organizing is a great example that you should have stuck to your guns, let her know here behavior was unacceptable and asked for an apology for her behavior. If she continued to display that type of behavior towards you then you have no choice but to walk and never look back. At first she wouldn't like it but she would slowly start to respect you.
I would also suggest you read " How to be a 3% Man" by Corey Wayne"
I've always been a soft, slow talker, so I've continued with that too.
Slow is good. Deeper is good. Louder is good. Alpha traits.
Being able to project your voice (when needed) is a good skill to have/ learn.
OK as a beta-in-recovery... don't think of it like "I should become an alpha because that's what people say women want."
Become an alpha (or whatever you want to call it) because you will be in charge of your own happiness. Someone who is confident, assertive, and attractive. Someone who commands respect from others, but also holds himself to high standards. You will be the captain of your own ship.
Report back after you read NMMNG. If it doesn't read like an autobiography I will be surprised.
Yeah pretty much every guy on here lol.
Yeah, you're right. I read a lot of Gekko's sitch, and it seems there's parallels with his XW and mine. Thanks again for the book suggestion too.
With the respect issue (lack thereof), that popped up a few times in the M, mainly with my step kids. There was little consistency, and the XW's view was respect is earned, not automatic. She made it clear on lots off occasions she felt trapped in the middle. I read here about 'covert contracts' - it resonated, because I think I grew resentful sometimes that my expectations weren't being met, which snowballed sometimes.
In the current reality, I think you're very right about the respect issue being the one angle I can push for in terms of being the 'alpha' male. I'm thinking this will include taking a lot of time to answer sms', calls etc from the wife, and being firm but polite and calm if we discuss and disagree, then walking away if the XW escalates, saying something like "this discussion is becoming unproductive and we'll table another time and date to continue it" or "the way you're speaking to me is unacceptable to me, I'm leaving blah blah'. This is going to be tough!
I think one of my alpha characteristics was my ferocious approach to anyone outside the family trying to get one up on us. A few months ago the XW called me in a panic as a tradesman was trying to rip her off. I think for the first time I'd known her she asked me 'what do I do'. She relayed the sitch (the old we want more money and if you dont pay we're going to keep driving in front of your house) and I went into my cold business mode and suggested what I would do, but it was up to her. Problems continued so I spoke to the tradie very forcefully and ended up meeting him at her house, telling XW to stay in the yard til I sorted him out, which I did, then reported the outcome to the XW, and left. I reckon these types of things will pop up again and she may contact me to be the enforcer because I was the one who 99% of the time dealt with these people.
My question too is, is this an alpha characteristic in the sense discussed here, and if so do I continue in that role. Or, is this just another example of the XW has fired me as H now its her problem and the extent of my involvement is to validate her frustrations at getting scammed (because her jumping in head first without really thinking is her MO) and/or it's against Sandi's advice to not give advise to the XW even when asked.
My thinking is continue to be the rock steady 'enforcer' that the XW can count on, but not be so available to do it instantly, and be more detached (kind of like a hired consultant). Happy to hear to the contrary from the forum.
I can tell there's going to be lots of moments like these with my step kids too, where I'm called to be the answer/guidance/fix it guy to 'what do I do' and I plan on being there for my step kids regardless.
Thanks again LH19 and any other members who can assist. Kind regds, D
I've always been a soft, slow talker, so I've continued with that too.
Slow is good. Deeper is good. Louder is good. Alpha traits.
Being able to project your voice (when needed) is a good skill to have/ learn.
Thanks R2C. My job actually requires a lot of talking and persuavive language, and I've become pretty good with my speech delivery. In the good times during the M, the XW would often seductively joke with me what a smooth talker I was and how she loved it (pretty much every day during the M I would manage multiple witty covert and classy but sexually charged or romantic comments directed to her, whihc she loved). I've totally erased any overtly seductive tilt or suggestion in my conversation with her since separation. I have lowered the tone of my already deep voice, speak slower and softer around her. XW voice is often very loud, shrill and nasally, so I consciously do all I can to keep my volume low but resonative. Whilst I think in that sitch, lower volume from me is better, I'll try your suggestion of louder is good from me. Thank you.
Speaking of your previous suggestion of seducing her back, which I really liked, many times since separation she has called me 'babe', honey, sweetheart etc in conversation, initially apologising, then the last few times not pulling herself up, though this hasnt occurred for probably 2 months now. At all times, I never reacted or reciprocated as I suspected learned behaviour (we never called each other by name, only babe or hun etc). After separation there was also a bit of brushing up by her against me, touching hands, leg etc, all of which I ignored too. With the passage of more time, if this happens again, I'm thinking maybe react to cute names with a smile and a quick and lighthearted "Yes hun?", and a quick gentle reciprocating brush of my hand on her if she does that to me first? I remember now at the beginning of R she was testing the waters with these things, and I now remember her first ILU was very guarded and testing as she got out of my car after a date. What do you think?
OK as a beta-in-recovery... don't think of it like "I should become an alpha because that's what people say women want."
Become an alpha (or whatever you want to call it) because you will be in charge of your own happiness. Someone who is confident, assertive, and attractive. Someone who commands respect from others, but also holds himself to high standards. You will be the captain of your own ship.
Report back after you read NMMNG. If it doesn't read like an autobiography I will be surprised.
Thanks Unchien. Appreciate the wise counsel. Will read and report back!
Hi all,
I was hoping to get some feedback from the forum in relation to a couple of issues which will pop up in the next week or so in respect of parenting arrangements for my 10 yo S, his Bday, my XW's, mine, and broader issues of me standing up for myself.
Parenting -
My XW has been on o'seas holiday the last month with my SD. I have had my son full time accordingly. We have a loose verbal equal care weekabout arrangement, which we agreed to, but which she modified from time to time, usually sending me her work schedule and effectively telling me to work it out. Before she left, she said she wanted to look at changing when she got back, because she reckons she has my S more than I, and that while its great I'm spending all this time improving myself, she is tired, and even thouhg she's looking forward to her holiday she needs a life too. There's always a sting in the tail with anything she says unfortunately. I agreed we would talk when she got back, and validated how busy she's been with everything going on in her life.
The current weekabout works for me and my S. Just after separation, she thought I'd still live with her, and effectively continue to care for my S on weekends or other nights of the week when she was called to work. I told her very ealry in the separation that because of her decision, the new reality was that I wanted weekabout, and am no longer a babysitter every weekend. She didn't like that, and has thrown it back on me every chance she can. We agreed that she would have my S 2 weekends a month, and repeatedly advised she would need to get others to care for him when she worked (she works every weekend and Friday or Monday night). On my week, my XW gets my S from school and has him til I pick him up after work - she suggested this as she didn't want him in care, but recently suggested along the lines that its a big favour she's doing for me
On off weekends, either of us will have our son for a few hours for breakfast or what not, and sometimes during the week for dinner. These 'ad hoc' arrangements are always very cordial in organising - its the more longer term arrangements that become very difficult and sometimes venomous to discuss
Now, I'm thinking when the talk comes, I'll simply state that I'm happy with the current arrangement to continue for the next few months but if she wants to change, to send me an itinerary which I'll consider and come back to her on. Now that my adult SS and SD live with her again, she has 2 care options when she works. I'm just wondering if there's any value in me pointing that out if she goes back to the old chestnut of me having him every weekend and she having him during the week, or, to simply restate what I've previously said to her that this isnt my concern that she needs other people to look after my S when she works (which caused her to blow a fuse).
Bdays -
Her 50th is coming up very very soon. At BD in January, she made a grand gesture and said she was going to have a huge party with all her friends. A couple of months ago, she said it was just going to be a dinner out with a couple of friends and the kids and she invited me - I said maybe. Now I'm wise to the wisdom of this forum, me going is a bad idea. If her friends are going, she has said to me at BD she was sick of bitching about me to her friends, and said later she spoke to her friends and they couldn't believe some of the things I'd said. I'm not sure if it would be sensible to state when declining her party invitation to say I wouldn't be comfortable going knowing her friends would be there and what they think about me? If I just decline and say 'sorry Ive got other plans' she'll likely raise I've known about her bday for months and get angry. I know the forum's wisdom would say who cares what she thinks, so I'm a little torn as I'm still working on expunging my NGS!
I intend a nice gift to her from my son, and nothing from me, other than a short text around midday saying happy bday hope you have a great day.
My bday -
Its a couple of days after my XW, on a weeknight. I haven't said anything about any plans, nor do I intend to. If she asks, I'll just say I have plans, and will also have my S celebrate with me the following weekend, and that I'll invite my SD and SS to come along if they'd like.
Standing up -
I was a 'wussy man'.Very protective of my wife, but very attuned to pleasing her, and not voicing my deeper needs, not pulling her up in a constructive way regarding her behaviopur to me, and going along to get along. I wasn't obsequious, but I did enjoy doing things for her as an expression of my love and having her on a pedestal. I thank the forum for drawing this to my attention. For me, weaning NGS will mainly be about getting my self respect back, ensuring she respects me, and not being so available.
In doing so, I'm thinking in gradual incremental stages, or do I flick the switch, so to speak?. If I get an email at work saying 'can you please print this' or 'can you access my email and check this', if its for her personal benefit and its just more conveneient for her to get me to do it, I'll ignore it. If I get a text that says "D, you need to blah blah' instead of pretending I didn't notice it was like a command, I'll say "Telling me what to do doesnt suit me any more". Thoughts?
Thanks again for any and all feedback. I cant underscore just how contrary to my nature these changes will be and value the support.
Parenting- 50/50 split is best for the child. Get the "Normal" written and agreed (even if in an email) so that future things are clearer for everyone. Acknowledge that exceptions will happen and you will be flexible. You just want as much notice as possible.
Thank you again for your feedback R2C.
I've just been reading up on your suggested scripts in the Boundaries thread too. Very informative and I've made some notes. For guys like me, it's very counter intuitive, but I'm going to trust in the process. I think I was naive in trusting other resources which said don't argue with anything the MLC spouse says and basically go along and let it wash over you.
In a sense too, I rationalised me going along with nearly everything on the basis that if I didn't, the emotional toll on me would be greater - essentially trading space for time.
If you have any thoughts about anything else in my above post, I'd welcome them.
Thanks again mate. Regds, D
Weaning yourselff off NGS is tricky to start with - I'm doing the same.
Do it all for you. Be assertive but not aggressive. Be pleasant but not a pushover.
It's hard!
Thanks Dan appreciate the support mate. The thing I find hard is that it’s my nature and moreso it was one of my ‘qualities’ my wife loved about me, which paradoxically could have ultimately repelled her. I just don’t know.
What was your first example of weaning away from ngs?
If you have any thoughts about anything else in my above post, I'd welcome them.
As far as HER birthday, if she asks you AGAIN to go, I would strongly conciser accepting the offer. If she hasn't asked by the day before, I would plan on not going. Make sense?
If you have any thoughts about anything else in my above post, I'd welcome them.
As far as HER birthday, if she asks you AGAIN to go, I would strongly conciser accepting the offer. If she hasn't asked by the day before, I would plan on not going. Make sense?
Thanks R2C,
Really appreciate you sticking with me.
Unless the aim in me going is to showcase what an exciting and attractive man I am in front of her and her select few friends, I don't see the sense. Sorry mate my brain's a bit slow this morning so could you please spell it out if I'm wrong?
If she asks you, she wants you there.
Hi all,
I suppose this is a bit of venting, journalling, and seeking feedback on a very recent revelation.
Venting/feedback sought-
Ive been listening to some podcasts of R Glover on NMMG whilst the books on order, and I'm feeling very mixed emotions about the aspect of 'differentiation' and how it played out in my R - I was left feeling a bit like I was d@mned if I did and d@mned if I didnt, and I know I shouldnt, but also feeling foolish and naive.
Glover spoke of an example of differentation where the guy says to the girl - Im going out for drinks with my buds Friday, girl says ok, but then wants him to stay with her, he says no, and shes ok with it.
Early in the R, before cohabitation, I was pretty independant - hung with friends, did other things etc. There were 2 incidents early, and one later, which I think really had me unwittingly fall into a lack of differentiation.
Within probably a week or 2 of meeting her, I was out with a mate buying him a stereo. XW asked where I was, told her, and she wanted me to come over as she was free. Told her I couldn't, but would be over as soon as I could, and she got pretty cranky, making me feel guilty
A few weeks after, I went paintballing with a huge group of friends, and I could tell she wasnt happy, as she wanted to spend time with me.
In the first few months of the R, I lived and worked about 2 hours away. Used to get lots of invites to come to her place (ie almost daily, even though I spent every weekend at her place), which if I said I couldn't (as I was exhausted working long hours, plus the drive time), she would get very pouty and sometimes give me the cold distance treatment
When our S was a toddler, I managed to get away overnight to visit my best friend (by that stage I saw my friends maybe once or twice a year as I took my father/husband duties very seriously and paramount). In the morning, at my friends, out of the blue, I got a text from XW saying 'pack your [censored] and get out'. I replied but she didnt respond, so I rushed home, getting the silent treatment for a few days.
Throughout the R, I used to get lots of comments like 'never leave me', 'you're mine', 'if you get another woman I'll cut off your cahones', 'my XH came home after an argument with lipstick on his neck' etc etc - all of whihc were said in jest, but had the desired effect I think - they very firmly resolved in my mind that even though I never even thought of being unfaithful, I needed to keep showing her she was the only one and make her happy.
A couple of years ago, I went for a week long o'seas holiday with my best friends from childhood. I intially had no plan to go with them, but XW really encouraged me to go, so we spoke about it, and I did. I got the cold distant treatment again when i was over there, and when I got back, she was very clingy then passionate with me. A few months later, during an argument, she threw out of the blue at me that when i was there I should have slept with a prostitute on my holiday! I was deeply hurt and told her she should be ashamed of saying that to me.
I wish I'd known about differentiation. Again, I know I shouldn't, as the XW probably didnt mean it, but I'm feeling duped, but I'm also feeling like I'm never going to let this type of thing happen again.
Anyone else experience this type of stuff? How did you deal with it?
Journalling -
XW returned from month long holiday. My S has gone back to her now, so house feeling a bit empty. One text from XW yesterday talking about school issue I didn't need to know about. I 180'd in not answering for about 4 hours, then kept the reply short, and didn't ask about the holiday. If she wants to tell me, that's up to her.
Fathers Day coming up soon. First one after BD. Invited my adult SS and SD. Huge 180 with my young adult SS really continues to evolve. We communicate now like we never had huge issues, and I don't eat up with anxiety at the mere thought of him. I credit that to his huge recent emotional changes, and my ability to realise I cant react to him based on previous experience, something I only learned post BD (emotional intelligence). SS issues were a huge source of strain between me and XW for years, and worry for XW too. I'm hoping too that it gives XW some comfort knowing (if she knows) we've reconciled and I'm now there for my SS if he needs me.
I had something similar. My W would always say - usually every couple of weeks - "don't leave me," "you won't leave me will you?" "you do love me don't you?" For about 5-6 years out of 8. And then after BD she says she doesn't need to go to therapy...
To wean yourself off NGS - do small things first. Do one thing that you'd normally not do. Might be buying a new item of clothing that's "a bit expensive", say 10-20% above what you may usually pay for something - treat yourself. Or perhaps getting into a hobby that you never had chance to. Or asking for a raise/promotion at work.
Or going somewhere - another town - alone, to see an event. Then post on FB about what a great time you had. No pics necessary - just say "I was at [x] - it was great." Be positive.
It's hard because you want to contact your W to say "I'm going to [x] - would you like to come too?" You know that if S or D wasn't in either of your lives, they'd immediately say "Yeah of course I'd love to!" and you'd have a nice day together.
Some people have the idea that the spouse who wants D looks at your more positive life and has second thoughts. Not sure if that's 100% accurate, but for me I'm just doing the positive things and continuing to look forward.
I had something similar. My W would always say - usually every couple of weeks - "don't leave me," "you won't leave me will you?" "you do love me don't you?" For about 5-6 years out of 8. And then after BD she says she doesn't need to go to therapy...
Yeah, it's hard to fathom isn't it. Especially in my sitch, where my last genuine "I love you'' was literally a few hours before BD.
It's funny you say about it being hard about wanting to contact. I think for me I was in such shock when it happened I wasn't event thinking about contacting her about anything!
As to 2nd thoughts, I don't know. Maybe. I think with my XW, even if she had 2nd thoughts, she would remind herself that she's already made up her mind, and that would be the end of it. I'm 99.99% sure of that. The 0.01% is why I'm here.
Hi DS,
Could you edit your profile and put criticals into signature such as:
Me:40
XW:49
S10
Divorce finalized xx:2019
This helps us.
Thansk R2C
Ive just added these but I'm not seeing them here. Can anyone see the signature footnote details Ive typed in?
DS -
I'm in NGS recovery myself.
I have a pretty simple mindset about it all. What's mine is mine, and what's yours is yours. I own my emotional stuff, you own yours.
Once you start to take control of your happiness, you may get some backlash. You must resist the temptation to cave in to the backlash. This is not "going out and being an alpha male and doing whatever the heck you want". This is owning your own happiness, just like every human being has the right to do. It helps to also have faith that this will not just help you, but it will make all your relationships healthier, including the one with your partner (even if you end up splitting).
What makes you happy? If you don't know, start with little things. Experiment. It can be really really small. I started buying cage-free eggs. It took literally zero effort or time. But the difference in taste when I have eggs in the morning is priceless. It makes me incrementally happier. It sounds stupid... I would have never started doing this until I went through my situation.
I can't remember if I saw this here on DB forums or elsewhere, but I am a math nerd:
1.00^365 = 1.00
1.01^365 = 37.78
Little changes, over time, add up.
Thanks Unchien,
Appreicate the tips and support mate. I get you on not being an alpha that does whatever he wants. I cant remember the term but Glover calls it something like a balanced male, or similar.
It's funny you talk about happiness and what makes me happy. Frankly, there's been no revelation here, or 'newness', as I've largely continued with my lifestyle as it was before separation, because my XW and I pretty much gelled in what we both liked and how things were done.
One aspect of NGS I struggle with is the NGS symptom of doing things with uncommunicated expectation of something in return. I get really happy with being generous and doing acts of service, but without any expectation of a reciprocal gesture, other than perhaps a big smile and thank you sometimes.
What really has aligned with my personality is NGS being an anxiety management disorder, being concenred about what people think of you, and not expressing needs. These are aspects I need to work on, as well as self differentiation from partners.
I'm not sure if NGS applies to 3rd parties outside the wife/family, in the sense that a 'nice guy' also displays NGS to the general population?
Cheers D
Hi all
My XW and SD got back last week from a 4 week holiday. Saw XW on the weekend when getting my son. Enthusiastically invited in to sit down and told about the holiday, reno dramas, new tatoo, unwelcome tax surprise, o/seas medical costs etc. I displayed polite, interested indifference, asked no questions, and left at the earliest opportunity.
Emails yesterday about ongoing parenting arrangements, as we have nothing formalised. XW wanted more time since getting back, with the inference being I've had S for a month thus she wants a little more to make up for that. I ignored that self serving comment, and told her I'd need time to consider (the old me would have dropped everything and responded immediately). SMS this morning wanting my reply, and I said I'd email her later. Instant reply with 'that doesnt sound good' 'its a yes or no answer' etc. I ignored, and simply said "I'm out walking" - "ok, sorry", then "FYI my phones being fixed so I wont see your email til I get it back" - no reply from me.
I've since emailed back, in my own time, accepting her proposal with conditions for some time with my S interspersed. I told her my conditions, rather than asking if they were ok. Also, I used her first name for the first time since BD. I hadnt called her by her name since I cant remember - we always used terms of endearment. I know that sounds weird that I hadnt used her first name since now - I think it's a significant step in cutting the rope for me though.
Her bday is coming up - I'd been asked to come twice months ago in a roundabout way. She's not mentioned it again, other than wanting our S that day. I've not mentioned my attendance either, nor will I.
If I go, I'm thinking to give her a gift voucher and just a plain card with the words 'Happy Birthday (XW) - congratulations on your milestone - have a wonderful day - Regards, D". Thoughts on this message?
All previous cards were large and extravagant and I'd written poems, witty or romantic messages, love hearts etc, basically filling all the space with messages she loved to see.
If I don't go, I'll just send an sms with the same message.
Regardless, there'll be a lovely card and expensive gift voucher from my son to her.
Any thoughts?
Thanks, D
DS,
Your suggestions for your W bday are good. If decide go or you don't both of the options are good to.go with. Nothing over board and no more LBS Hubby making her his number 1 priority.
Keep up the good work.
Thanks joejoe - appreciate the guidance. Regards, D
Journaling-
Odd day today. Picked my son up and spoke to sd and ss. There’s four of them living in a 2 bedroom 70m2 home. Told them they’re welcome to come round whenever they need space or somewhere to study.
Ss gave me a bear hug. A little over a year ago he was threatening physical violence. Felt good that he sees me as a father figure now. I never had a connection with him and he was a very difficult kid. Some awful memories that are now just that.
Sd called me and she’s coming to stay tonight. Ss and sd had a huge fight. Spoke to ss and counselled him. XW is at some function. It was always the case when the s—t hit the fan I was in the breach. Some things never change and sometimes nice guys don’t shy from problems. Be the lighthouse D
I decided to come over here from the MLC Forum and post my answer to your about what the word "fog" means when we reference it. The "fog" isn't a medical condition all on it's own, but a part of the depression that people experience when the are in MLC. The symptoms are memory problems, irritability, inability to concentrate, and poor motivation. In MLC, depression is the main ingredient. You might want to take some time and read up on depression. You will see many symptoms of the "fog" there.
Thank you very much job. I’m going to read up further on depression. There was an excellent thread here on depression and mlc.
If you have time and interest please feel free to review my first post and let me know if you think my XW has had a mlc.
Kind Regds Dan
XW had her bday on the weekend. No further invite to attend so I said nothing.
I’ve been polite but distant and disinterested in her various streams of consciousness that she tells me about and don’t reply to texts and when I do it’s several hours later.
Sons bday on the weekend too. I paid and organised it. She offered money which I accepted. My ngs side almost said no so i felt good accepting it without any uncertainty in my voice. I suppose i should have first asked for half but baby steps.
XW sent me happy bday text quite early this morning finishing with XX. I was a little shocked as this was the first sign of any affection whatsoever since bd. Does this mean anything?
I waited till this afternoon to respond, tying a ‘thanks ‘ to a msg about S.
I would not read into the XX too much. Nice of her to say happy bday - she didn't have to.
It's like that scene in High Fidelity where John Cusack's character has the discussion about ending a statement with the word "yet" - he asks, "does it mean she's going to do it? Or would she have already done it if she really wanted to?" and so on. Great film!
After one weekday evening of talking at length in our house, then me not leaving to go back to my parent's house til 1am (an hour's drive), my W texted me at 2am saying "hope you got home ok sweetie".
4 weeks later, she announced D.
So I would not analyse it. I'd delete it in fact, to avoid the temptation to keep looking at it.
I think one of the sticky threads says "have no expectations."
XW had her bday on the weekend. No further invite to attend so I said nothing.
I’ve been polite but distant and disinterested in her various streams of consciousness that she tells me about and don’t reply to texts and when I do it’s several hours later.
Sons bday on the weekend too. I paid and organised it. She offered money which I accepted. My ngs side almost said no so i felt good accepting it without any uncertainty in my voice. I suppose i should have first asked for half but baby steps.
XW sent me happy bday text quite early this morning finishing with XX. I was a little shocked as this was the first sign of any affection whatsoever since bd. Does this mean anything?
I waited till this afternoon to respond, tying a ‘thanks ‘ to a msg about S.
So wait, her bday, your S's bday and yours are all within a few days of each other? Wow that's wild! Just take her bday wishes as a nice baby step. Like Michele says, do celebrate the baby steps internally but externally keep on DBing! It just means what you're doing is working
Need GAL help folks! Any tennis players out there? Loved tennis when I was a teen and joined a club to get back into it. Need help with recommendations for a good 'intermediate level' tennis racquet, as there's so many racquets and I wouldn't have a clue as its been 25 years since I picked one up. I'm tall and rangy, hopeless server, but very good with power shots, chip n chase etc. Many thanks.
GAL has been hard for me guys (I'm an introvert), but I'm trying! Planning gel gun trip with my son and his friends soon, and a visit to an amusement park this weekend. Baby steps (keep saying that because I love the movie What about Bob!)
I think one of the sticky threads says "have no expectations."
Yeah, outwardly, I haven't read too much into it at all. Just found it strange that after 7 months of ice cold detachment (and I mean sub zero cold) from her she'd decide to do that, and so early in the morning.
I'd sent her a birthday sms a few days before but it was quite distant and formal, and I waited til midday before sending, tying it in with a message about our S.
So wait, her bday, your S's bday and yours are all within a few days of each other?
Hi AS - yes, we 3 are within a week of each other!
AS, I have a question for you too about DB'ing, if you wouldn't mind.
During the M, my XW had several very close girlfriends who went through their own D, and they always seemed to talk about their D's and XH's, inlcuding my XW, whose XH before me put her through hell. Universally, each of her friends had bad divorces, and my XW would tell me all about the gory details of how bad the XH's were (cheating, vindictive, abandon the kids, aggressive behaviours, couldn't do anything around the home, name calling, muckraking, inflexible, dragging through the court, you name it). Essentially, these XH's were hated for how much they fought my wife's friends. My XW's friends all knew me, liked me very much, and I liked them.
I have been pretty much the total opposite of these XH's. I see my taking the high road as a 180 on what my XW expected after she BD'd. Do you think that counts, and do you think it matters?
Hi all,
I’ve been in a bit of a funk the last few days.
I’ve been ignoring xw’s calls last couple of weeks. She’ll call at work several times then sms. If it’s not to do with S or urgent I’ll reply to sms in the evening. I suspect this annoys her. I’m a lot more distant in face to face contact. I think it’s been noticed. I’m doing this to detach.
Went for dinner for S’s birthday. A few days before she asked me what we would do for bday, I came up with idea, she then said she’s working, then said she’d come. She asked me if I’d received an sms which I’d already replied to. I was cordial but essentially ignored her. After dinner she made a big deal about splitting the bill with the server, then left. I’m not doing any more family dinners with that attitude. Why want a family dinner for our S’s bday and act like that. S tells me XW hasn’t bought him a present. Told him not to worry as mummy was probably too busy.
Visited MIL w S to maintain connection for S and to check on her due to health. Mil said some choice words about XW and said I was too nice, giving and generous to her daughter. I agreed.
Guys this s$&t is draining me. Nothing bad has happened and there’s no crisis but I think my willpower tank has emptied. I just need to accept there’s no point. XW said at bd shes changed and we’re never getting back. She’s done that to other people and previous relationships. I know that for a fact. I dunno guys.
Took my son to an amusement park and we had a great time. Spent lots of money because now I don’t need to worry about the minister for finance checking up on the account. Bought a home gym too.
Cheers D
Keep on detaching. Changes are for your new life. Get into amoafwl. Expect nothing, fear nothing, get it?
Keep the GAL going. Be there for your S
It takes time, use that time wisely.
Remember to believe nothing that they say.
Stick to DB. Don´t do things waiting for an immediate reward: no expectations whatsoever.
Stay strong DS. Time and patience. And DB, of course. ;-)
Thanks Neffer,
Really appreciate your encouragement. It's a bloody lonely path I tread, but tread it I am, and I'm so grateful for the forum's support. What very little family I have is far away from me, as are my friend network.
In my mind, I'm becoming AMOAFWL. I'm physically the best I've been in years and years, and my IC continues, focussing on addressing the childhood subconscious root causes of many of some of my flawed subconscious behaviours/reactions (negativity, procrastination, go along to get along and similar).
I took some photos of my S on the weekend when we went out. Normally I'd send these to XW (just photos by sms, no words), and she has sent to me. I'm thinking of stopping this practice. Any thoughts?
Thanks guys
It depends on why you are sending the photos. Are you sending them to stay connected to her or for her to stay connected to your S? And do you want her to continue sending you photos? If the answer is the last two, then why stop. If it the first one, however, you may want to consider stopping if it is getting in the way of you moving forward.
Thanks Dejavu,
The last 2 reasons. She's a great mum, but after BD she made some pretty poor and very out of character choices in my view, but I think she regrets these. I think sending photos gives some normalcy to the parenting dynamic, but I just don't want to bend over backwards anymore - NMMNG.
I'll send the last lot of photos, then no more, as I really couldn't be bothered. She can create her own memories.
I suspect this annoys her. I’m a lot more distant in face to face contact.
Of course it annoys her, she wants you at her beck and call when it suits her. Keep on detaching!
After dinner she made a big deal about splitting the bill with the server, then left. I’m not doing any more family dinners with that attitude.
Did she make a big deal because you wanted to split it and she wanted you to pick it up or because you wanted to pay for it and she wanted to split it? Before BD I always picked up the tab on family meals unless it was my bday (and usually even then) but after BD my XW always wanted to split things. I didn't argue, I just let her start picking up half.
S tells me XW hasn’t bought him a present. Told him not to worry as mummy was probably too busy.
It's not your job to bail her out, but don't throw her under the bus either. When this happens, then listen to your son and validate. "I am sure this upsets you, is that how you feel?" "Yes, why is she acting like this!" "I am sorry your feelings were hurt, is there anything I can do?" Maybe offer to take him to the park, go out to eat or grab some ice cream.
I just need to accept there’s no point. XW said at bd shes changed and we’re never getting back. She’s done that to other people and previous relationships. I know that for a fact. I dunno guys.
Well like DV said you can't believe anything she says. It's a reflection of how she feels right now. But even so, this person she is now, do you even WANT to be married to someone like that? I mean my XW changed into someone that I NEVER would have married to begin with. Had she been like that from day one I never would have gone out with her! She has slowly been changing back into her old self, but now I'm dating someone who treats me with a ton of love and respect and that is the least that anyone deserves in a relationship!
In my mind, I'm becoming AMOAFWL. I'm physically the best I've been in years and years, and my IC continues, focussing on addressing the childhood subconscious root causes of many of some of my flawed subconscious behaviours/reactions (negativity, procrastination, go along to get along and similar).
Great!
I took some photos of my S on the weekend when we went out. Normally I'd send these to XW (just photos by sms, no words), and she has sent to me. I'm thinking of stopping this practice. Any thoughts?
That's up to you. If you do it then like DV said just make sure it's for the right reasons- sharing S with her. I did it for a while but I think I was fooling myself about why I was doing it, so I stopped for quite a while. I do it now every once in a while but now it truly is just to share the kids with XW with no ulterior motives.
Sounds like you are in a much better place than her. Your GAL activities are helping and certainly the IC is really useful too.
It's funny how you see your S in a different light after BD. It can be frustrating how we do all the GALing, detaching, and positive steps and they just don't choose to see it. They will - in time. But by then you've moved on and it's too late fro them. Don't worry about that. Focus on the present and the present only. I realised I wasted so much time worrying about what would happen in 3 or 5 years' time. Now, I don't care. I just think about the week or fortnight ahead. That's sufficient.
You have a good relationship with your S so that' s another massive positive.
If you believe you're becoming AMOAFWL, then you already are to a degree, or definitely will be at least.
Thanks everyone. Really appreciate your input and support!
[quote=DS9]
Did she make a big deal because you wanted to split it
Hey AS. It was nothing like that. She just called the server over for the bill as we were getting up from our seats. Before we even had a chance to do anything she just loudly and awkwardly proclaimed she wanted a split bill. I've been very generous with my money since we split finances, so she knew I wasn't going to let her foot the bill. It's just her being her - get in first, make it loud and awkward, she needs to control the situation, and nobody tells her what to do.
My SD then decided she'd like to pay for me. XW decided to loudly tell me how nice it was that my SD was paying for me, even though I just said that to my SD, and we were all standing within 2 feet of each other. I ignored her.
Pre BD, we had a single joint account where we pooled all our income, so there was no issue with who paid the bill as it was mutual money.
[quote=DS9] It's a reflection of how she feels right now. But even so, this person she is now, do you even WANT to be married to someone like that?
I know man, it's how she has felt for months. She got a detailed personalised day by day astrology report late last year. It basically told her to make these changes immediately in 2019, focus on her own sole happiness without exception, and focus on friends and kids. The small bits I read before I put it down made me feel sick. It was like a movie script of what she'd done.
No, I wouldn't want to be married to her how she is now - I just don't know if she'll ever come back as I don't know if she has MLC. I've realised that for all her love and affection during our M, there was an undercurrent to her that if she grew tired or something, she'd walk without looking back. It's interesting you mentioned your new lady gives you a lot of love AND respect. My XW gave me a lot of love, but pretty much nil respect. I was very naive.
This forum and all the lovely people that inhabit it have made me realise how distorted my perception of how I should be in a relationship really was, and how to stick up for yourself with women in your life. It has also made me realise what I need to do to take responsibility and fix my part in the reasons why my M disintegrated.
Focus on the present and the present only. I realised I wasted so much time worrying about what would happen in 3 or 5 years' time. Now, I don't care. I just think about the week or fortnight ahead. That's sufficient.
Nail on head Dan. I've always had an undercurrent of uneasiness, which I've recently realised is my inbuilt mechanism whereby I worry about things way off in the future that may or may not happen, and always distilling worst case scenarios. I'm taking baby steps to becoming more Zen like with focussing on the now, and not becoming bogged in analysis paralysis.
[
It's a reflection of how she feels right now. But even so, this person she is now, do you even WANT to be married to someone like that?
I know man, it's how she has felt for months. She got a detailed personalised day by day astrology report late last year. It basically told her to make these changes immediately in 2019, focus on her own sole happiness without exception, and focus on friends and kids. The small bits I read before I put it down made me feel sick. It was like a movie script of what she'd done.
No, I wouldn't want to be married to her how she is now - I just don't know if she'll ever come back as I don't know if she has MLC. I've realised that for all her love and affection during our M, there was an undercurrent to her that if she grew tired or something, she'd walk without looking back.
This forum and all the lovely people that inhabit it have made me realise how distorted my perception of how I should be in a relationship really was, and how to stick up for yourself with women in your life. It has also made me realise what I need to do to take responsibility and fix my part in the reasons why my M disintegrated.
Seen that, felt that, and experienced that too. All too familiar. W was chasing all kinds of astrology reports for months and months and months on love, relationships, life, and finances. you hit the nail on the head when you said it feels like they were living their life according to some movie script. I had this conversation months ago with my STBXW. she even confided to me that she was considering seeing a psychic. I said to her. Youu know that you are fooling around with dark spirits right? And going against God? She agreed, but she still does it anyway, until I stopped just paying attention to everything she does, and focused on myself for the most part.
Hi all,
Baby steps in detachment and distancing continue.
Email from XW yesterday after I told her to get her own phone plan and gave her account number last week for porting her number. She asks if I'd like to continue paying for her phone. I politely declined and asked her to get her own plan, and to ensure any of her personal expenses from my CC were transferred to her own account. I now end my email with 'Regards, D'. She sms's with an apology about an expense of hers that came out that she thought she stopped - I ignored it.
Later, I picked up S and waited for him whilst seated outside on the porch. Normally I'd stand at the door. XW saw me from the backyard and came to the porch. I was in my usual professional business finery, which I've completely overhauled since BD, and I'm feeling really good about my beefier physique too. Pre BD, XW would randomly tell me she doesn't like skinny men, or skinny legs - I was a skinny man, but not anymore. I made sure to stand up when speaking (as I would with any lady) and I'm sure she noticed my quite different upper body. Pre BD, she would have been all over me.
XW asked if the door was open and told her I didn't try it, then chit chat from her. She asks if I wanted to take some food back, which I politely declined. She told S and me that S needs to start learning to cook and I said that was a great idea, and we're implementing that in my house too. She then asked if I wanted to come in and see the renos as we were leaving. I made a lighthearted jump to peek through the window which was too high for me to see through anyway, telling my S its time to go, and she's doing a fantastic job with transforming the house. As we're leaving, XW tells S loudly his birthday present should be arriving soon.
SMS from XW last night advising she intends to go o/s again with girlfriend and wishing me goodnight, which I didnt reply to. Further sms this morning asking about phone account number, then again 20 minutes later saying she found it, both of which I didnt reply to.
These are all really small steps relative to some of you guys, but I'm proud of myself and wanted to share!
[
W was chasing all kinds of astrology reports for months and months and months on love, relationships, life, and finances. you hit the nail on the head when you said it feels like they were living their life according to some movie script.
Yes mate it was awful finding that report. Thing is, we're pretty open minded to that type of thing. XW used to be big on psychics during the M. When we met, she was all into calculating our compatibility based on birthdays and other random numbers. What's weird to me is how, for all her posturing about being her own individual person who doesn't listen to anyone or care about what anyone thinks, she goes and does all this astrology and psychic stuff, and seems to rely on it.
This sounds great DS. You presented yourself in a great light. Well done - some textbook DB going on there.
It's very hard to not respond to texts, but it has to be done. Don't worry about feeling as though they're small steps. It all adds up exponentially even over a short space of time.
My W is exactly the same with the "I'm individual and don't care what others think about me," yet she is a massive worrier and does Tarot cards regularly.
Hey Dan thanks for the vote of confidence mate. It’s a real boost for me. Saw XW again when picking up my son. Big smiles and upbeat vibe from me and caught her looking at my biceps a few times which I ignored. Make sure you stick with your gym routine and you’ll see results!
With sms etc I’m actually finding it easy to not respond. In fact I don’t want to. I also don’t want to get texts or calls from my XW. I want her to leave me alone. If we didn’t have a son I’d have been gone.
Ah yes tarot. I think this demonstrates a great sense of uncertainty with the people who need it. Check your birthdays as a numerology search and see what comes up for 2019. It’s London to a brick there’ll be something there that’ll mirror what she’s doing. I saw a spiritual healer early in my sitch and he said he’s seen quite a few divorces from wives based on a numerology report. Did your w go and buy chrystals too?
No she hasn't bought crystals (yet!). I just checked numerology. My 'Life Path Number' is 1 and my 'Sun Number' is 4. The descriptions of both of these traits are COMPLETELY inaccurate for me. So there we go!
Yes she certainly tends to go with what's on the Tarots.
My advantage with the gym is that it's several weeks til I see my W each time now, so I think she will definitely notice any physical changes!
I'm not going to self impose my beliefs on everyone else's here... Butttt... Ok maybe it's fun to try and predict the future and your life with astrology and other mediums every once in a while just to see compatibility and certain character traits to birth order. I do it every once in a while just to see if the character traits ring true. I don't give much weight to it though. But these things are of the supernatural world, and against God's word IMO. The other thing that I find amusing about these things especially with our sich's is these people have absolutely no problem stepping into an uncertain future, but then seek reassurance of how their life is going to turn out from a medium. They are looking to find themselves but are seeking validation of their life outcomes, rather then accepting their own personal choices and consequences. But yeah. Too many people, good, but desperate people follow too many outside influences, too many outside narratives, and too many "movie scripts" to determine their life course, all the while proclaiming individuality and independence.
DS9, that all sounds great, you're getting the hang of DB'ing for sure! Not responding to her trivial texts, dressing nice when around her, but not FOR her, waiting outside for S, your improved appearance. It's all sending her a message that you're high value and not waiting around for her and not playing her games. Plus it's great for your self-esteem. Good work!
The other thing that I find amusing about these things especially with our sich's is these people have absolutely no problem stepping into an uncertain future, but then seek reassurance of how their life is going to turn out from a medium. They are looking to find themselves but are seeking validation of their life outcomes, rather then accepting their own personal choices and consequences. But yeah. Too many people, good, but desperate people follow too many outside influences, too many outside narratives, and too many "movie scripts" to determine their life course, all the while proclaiming individuality and independence.
Really well said mate. Couldn't have put it better myself. I read your sitch and cant believe your W and her soap star fantasy. That must have been disturbing. In your case, did your W start the fantasies/psychics/astrology things before she left, or after BD?
No she hasn't bought crystals (yet!). I just checked numerology. My 'Life Path Number' is 1 and my 'Sun Number' is 4. The descriptions of both of these traits are COMPLETELY inaccurate for me. So there we go!
Yes she certainly tends to go with what's on the Tarots.
They may be inaccurate, but these people follow them nonetheless. What I meant was, do an online astrology/nuerology check for her, with birthday, time and birthplace. It may give you insight as to what she intends to do. Actually maybe better not as it may be upsetting. I had to put my XW's down after a few pages as it was disturbing and actually wish I hadnt read it, even though I think she purposely left it where I'd see it.
The lesson here is if you enter a new relationship, run away if she starts talking about birthnumbers, astrology, chrystals, tarot and horoscopes.
DS9, that all sounds great, you're getting the hang of DB'ing for sure! Not responding to her trivial texts, dressing nice when around her, but not FOR her, waiting outside for S, your improved appearance. It's all sending her a message that you're high value and not waiting around for her and not playing her games. Plus it's great for your self-esteem. Good work!
Thanks AS really appreciate the vote of confidence and sticking with me mate! I'm maintaining being distant and aloof, but cordial and polite, reasonable, cooperative and dignified.
One issue that pops up is XW has referred to me in relation to my son as 'your father' or 'your dad', which I find bemusing, but petty. I continue to refer to XW to my son as 'mum' or 'mummy'. I think he'll remember that.
Wow DS9!! I just got caught up on your entire sich. That is a lot of drama! I could cherry pick all the instances a lot of us here have experienced, seen, heard, and witnessed. I had so many thoughts reviewing your sich between what is experienced on their end, and what improvements and realizations are on our end. Its a lit to inventory, unless you chunk it down and improve on them daily/weekly. There are so many dynamics to two people at play. A part of me is sometimes like?... Are relationships even worth it anymore with the lack of commitment in the world, and the desire for instant gratification and pleasures? It makes me think sometimes that there is so much relativity to them, that some people won't change, and some will change on a dime from who we knew and expected them as, add in childhood traumas, poor coping skills, emotional volatility, mlc, some passive aggressiveness, different personality compatibility conflicts, ngs, and we wonder why we are here, they are there, and how we can do better and learn from our mistakes, and not repeat them. Clearly one size does not fit all. But the scripts and the fog seem to play out the same way. More to follow.
And that is how it is done folks . Well done DS9 , keep it up , you can do it
Hi all,
Saw XW again yesterday. I see her about 4-5 times a fortnight. Reason is that she gets my son from school during my week because she doesn't work weekdays. I pick S up after I finish work.
Babysteps continue.
I wait on the porch, dressed in even finer finery today, and she comes out and initiates conversation 'oh, I thought you were X (her girlfriend) - I'm going out for dinner with her. I went for dinner with Y yesterday, and I'm going for dinner tomorrow night with Z'. Me - no, it's me, great, have fun.
She sits, then a little awkwardly and girlishly asks - 'Sooo, how you been? - Good. Really good actually (with a huge smile on my face). The old me would have rattled off a few things I'd been doing.
XW - it's getting hot soon and we'll be sweating in here. We might have to come to your place for your airconditioning! Me - oh no! Said that humourously with a bit of a laugh added in. She then said she'd buy her own AC. The old me would have said come over anytime.
XW - I'm so over cleaning the house and the mess SD and SS make, whilst finger jabbing the air in the direction of where they were inside the house. Me - You sound tired and frustrated. The old me would have engaged further with how often I clean my house and what I do, but I pulled that up before it left my mouth.
XW - I've told you how I quit FT position at work haven't I (yes, you have). Well, I'm speaking with XYZ about blah blah blah blah. Me - good luck with that!
It was time for me to bail, so I got S primed, bounded down the stairs with him, and gave XW a big airwave with my back turned as she said bye again, then we flicked the gate open and hit the road for my place. Application of DB principle to end before she ends applied, plus practising the maxim of "you'll never be more attractive than when she sees your back as your walking away" (or something like that).
Wow DS9!! I just got caught up on your entire sich. More to follow.
Thanks buddy, I look forward to hearing more from you. I find your posts very insightful and reflective, and they give me much food for thought.
And that is how it is done folks . Well done DS9 , keep it up , you can do it
Thanks Tryhard!
DS9 I have no advice and not much to say but thanks for reading my sitch and responding. It sounds like you are doing great and learning so much. I will continue to follow yours and offer help if I can.
Hi all,
Hope everyone had a great weekend. I had probably the most fun one, sans son, since BD. There were moments of ego boost, coupled with moments of reflection.
My nephew visited me, who I hadn't seen in years. He's mid 20's, and a fine young man. We share many interests. He was meeting up with a female platonic friend from school afterwards, but invited me as well. I thought I'd go along as the third wheel, as that's better than staying home, or heading out alone.
Went to a bar and a nightclub, neither of which I'd been to since XW met me all those years ago. I was pretty much the oldest guy there, but I'm told I look a lot younger apparently and am young at heart (great ego shot). Had a blast - drank more than I had in some time (many cocktail jugs were had), and had good food, plus great company. Turns out his female friend is very keen on me, but she is young enough to be my daughter, so I didn't even go there . A very articulate and mature young lady, and I enjoyed the conversation not only for that, but also to see just how different other women are to my XW.
Turns out my photos circulated with my nephew's other female friends and colleagues, and there's a 'line up' apparently, the first of which is a lady in her early thirties, 10 years younger than me. I'm not going to live like a monk anymore.
I'm sure some of you relate to this - after BD, my modest self confidence and ego took a hit - an absolute king hit pumelling actually. Here I was, with an XW 7 years older than me, rejecting me, then going about beautifying herself to make herself look younger. I was at zero - negative 10 actually.
This weekend has boosted me and revitalised my sense of self-confidence, and I felt like I was radiating positive energy when I was out and about enjoying myself. But, it has also made me realise that I rely too heavily on outside validation to give me a sense of happiness and purpose. I had sensed that about myself, but now it has become clear. Is it something I can 'unlearn'? Images of XW proclaiming often during the M 'only you can make you happy' without further explaining, echoed in my mind until I crushed them to the side. I think I'll discuss with my IC.
DS9 I have no advice and not much to say but thanks for reading my sitch and responding. It sounds like you are doing great and learning so much. I will continue to follow yours and offer help if I can.
Thanks Roo!
Hi all,
I hope everyone has survived another week, or better yet, thrived.
Mine’s been relatively uneventful.
Fishing, walking, weights, shopping and playing with my new smart watch has been the extent of my gal. Have my son now and have been helping sd with getting a new car.
XW sent me a photo of my son by sms the other day. I didn’t bother replying.
Saw her yesterday at change over. Waited on porch but invited in. Declined initially but relented as I didn’t want to give a rude vibe. She wanted to show me renos again so I peaked in then muttered something light hearted when she told me about room arrangements, then again tells me about which friend and what night she’s having dinner with. She knows I’m keen to leave as she now prompts s to hurry up.
I don’t tell her anything about what I’m doing. I left my money in the joint account which she can still see online and uses to pay the cc, and that tells the tale of where I’ve been and what I’ve been buying. I’m enjoying being generous with my money and spending on things I’ve always wanted. A few months ago I asked if she needed money when she was complaining about reno costs. So much for being the ‘money hungry c$&t’ she called me soon after bd.
SD rather intently asks me about gal and where I’ve been etc (who you going with why you going?). I’m vague in keeping with bd and I know it’ll get telegraphed straight to XW.
Saw XW today parked near me at the shops. She was on the phone next to 2 older men and seemed intent. Was tempted to ignore but thought there may have been a dispute. Got in my car, drove past and beeped and asked if all was ok. Old me would have rushed over to check. She rushed over to my car and grabbed my arm telling me she was on phone to emergency services as one man had assaulted the other, but everything was ok. I said fine and took off. Old me, as her protector, would have parked up got out and stood next to her to make sure she was ok and guided her away from these dudes. As it was I didn’t even sms her afterwards to check up. She fired me remember. Plus I had ice cream and frozen berries in the boot lol!
Good luck everyone and god bless, D
tells me about which friend and what night she’s having dinner with
she comes out and initiates conversation 'oh, I thought you were X (her girlfriend) - I'm going out for dinner with her. I went for dinner with Y yesterday, and I'm going for dinner tomorrow night with Z'
I find it interesting that for some reason they always find some way to try to keep us in their lives but at the same time want nothing to do with us. My XW keeps me updated regularly on her surgery coming up in couple months and what she is doing at work. I never respond anymore which has helped tremendously in detaching. I am guessing they try to keep us a little informed of their lives to keep us as possible plan B's in the future.
Keep up the amazing work DS9. You are DB'ing so well do you ever feel like maybe you want to move on and not ever want her back?
You seem to be doing really well DS. I'm following a lot of what you do (BTW thanks for all your comments on my threads over these last few months) and it definitely helps.
You are doing lots of GAL activities and the way you act with your XW is just right I think.
I find it interesting that for some reason they always find some way to try to keep us in their lives but at the same time want nothing to do with us.......I am guessing they try to keep us a little informed of their lives to keep us as possible plan B's in the future.
This made me think quite a bit this morning. I'm finding myself in the same situation frequently with my W. D is in progress but she is always telling me how she has no time to do things and is busy etc. Very interesting.
Hey roo
Yeah XW said she’d always be in my life. When that comes up again, or if she raises us still being friends, I’ve decided I’ll tell her ‘no, I’ve changed and my needs have changed. You’ll make a great friend, but not for me. We’re not friendship compatible. we’ll always be amicable co parents though’. If you check my first post , you’ll see I’m mirroring what she said to me at bd. I’ll out g the g. Ice cold cordiality.
Good work in not responding. It gets easier buddy. It could be plan b, but my ic thinks it more about them finding out and discerning what the new communication and relationship dynamic will be like.
No mate I don’t think I’d have her back. She’s old and not getting younger. I’m superficial that way. She’ll never get counselling and that is needed. She’s also on online dating which is a deal breaker for me. My nephew reminded me too of our centuries old family lineage and the code of honor we have, and what that means in terms of being treated with honour as well- I forgot I need to receive too. That’s not to say I don’t have feelings for her, and I know I’m still emotionally attached. I’d now much prefer the 3 significantly younger women who are after me. XW smashed me relentlessly and I took it all and smiled and kept being generous and loyal. She knew my nature and my unconditional love for her. She chose to end things in a way which she knew would destroy me- she came very close to doing that. What I’ve written here on this forum is a fraction of what I endured. I was a good man with a good heart but I didn’t know enough and I had my faults . That’s how I feel right now.
Thanks for the kind words mate. I’m still finding my feet with dbing. Cheers D
Thanks Dan I’m glad to help
We’re not friendship compatible. we’ll always be amicable co parents though’.
I agree with the first part of this statement for me. XW said at BD, "I think we are just two completely different people." I completely didn't understand how she could say that because we like similar music, outdoor activities, foods, and so much more. Now I understand that it isn't the outside but the inside that is different and so if she ever brought up friendship I would have to tell her "No, I think we are just two completely different people".
Unfortunately I don't think my XW is a good parent,but D13 and her relationship is between them. I don't discourage it and don't badmouth EW to D13. I can't give D13 advice on how to have a relationship with XW because I failed at that miserably, so D13 has a licensed therapist to help her navigate the relationship. I feel my role is to support D13 in her choices and make sure she is safe and taken care of. I have D13 about 305 out of 365 days of the year. This was EW decision when she told D13 she was leaving and when she called and discussed the divorce papers with me.
DS9 It seems like you are coming to a really good place in your mind and heart. I hope the ups and downs stabilize for the both of us. Keep updating because you give me hope.
Hi all,
Very minor baby steps yesterday...
My XW looks after my son during the day when he's on holidays and I work. I get a sms from her just before leaving - lots of pleases and thank you's asking for me to pick up Maccas on the way to her, and she'll pay me.
You guessed it, I didnt reply to the sms. I was too busy, and my fingers were tired from sms'ing my SD (who still lives with my XW) all day about organising a new car for her. I could be wrong, but I suspect the day will come where I'm questioned why I'm not responding. My answer will be short - 'sorry, your sms must've fallen to the end of the queue'.
I did get her Maccas though. She's still my S's mother, and it wasn't out of my way.
Delivered it with a smile, and an obsequious and surprised amount of gratitude from XW. She asked how much and I told her what would cover it. She didn't have that amount so but had more, so I told her that's fine and took the money. She did after all cause a fuss over splitting a restaurant bill the other week.
Old me would have sms'd her back immediately to clarify her order, and not accepted any form of payment. Old-old me was the errand boy - she wanted chocolate at 10pm, I'd be in the car getting it for her. Old me would have asked about what happened in the shopping centre carpark. Not anymore - NMMNG.
She tends to stand close to me when we talk at the door or on the porch. I tower over her and noticed how her black dyed hair has a huge amount of grey coming through on the top. She may have noticed my skin tight business shirt (tightly rolled up sleeves of course to strain against the biceps!) and pants and high gloss boots, or that the skinny slob upper body I once had is now more and more like an inverted triangle. Everywhere I go now it's dressed to the 9's. No more half broken thongs, parachute t shirts and mismatched shorts. I feel better about myself for it.
XW told me about how tired she was and wanting to go back to bed. I think I replied with an ok, and a big smile of casual indifference, then we took off. No need to validate, because what was there to validate. I think validation needs to be done sparingly and judiciously - too often, and you may start to look like some toadie.
She knows nothing about me now. I volunteer nothing, and answer briefly without detail if she asks. I'm becoming a ghost, other than the stable step dad to her kids, father to my son, and support for her mum when she needs me. I'm there, but not there. Everyone gets me now except her. The pedestal is cracking, but when the statue falls, I'll be gone. I'll have left a cushion on the ground to catch the fall, and a trial of dusty footprints pointing in my direction.
Anyway, I've taken a few days off to hang out with my son. I think I'll buy some new fishing gear too. I'm a hoarder!
[quote] I would have to tell her "No, I think we are just two completely different people".
Hey Roo,
I think with me, we would be friendship incompatible. We are different - hugely so in some respects. But, she is not a friend I would want, not now, probably not ever.
You're a great dad Roo. You'll be one of the veterans here who single dads come to for inspiration and advice. I agree with all you said. I thought it was bad when my XW took off for a month long holiday, but I just dont know what to say about the way your XW is conducting herself. She now has the guilts about that. I hope your XW will too.
Have you read "Danny, the Champion of the World"? Its underlying story to me is about a left behind father who raises a child. You remind me of that father mate.
Thanks for your support mate. I'll keep updating! Until I reach a stage of actual detached indifference, I'm going to keep DB'ing, and out-G'ing the G. Giving her time and space is not a problem for me, and never really was. My main flaws, as pointed out here in the forum, is the NGS facets I have. It's all in my mind, and it's getting better with baby steps.
DS, all sounds good, you're doing a great job at being AMOAFWL! Keep it up!
Hi all,
Hope everyone had a good weekend, thrived, and grew.
Life keeps churning for me.
DR and NMMNG have finally arrived at the bookstore! Cant wait to get stuck in.
I went on a date over the weekend. It was fun, but I was a little sick, which took the edge off. My date took care of me. MNG tendencies kicked in a little for me in that I kept saying sorry and felt the guilts. The contrast was interesting in care factor. XW would have been a little concerned, but not done much to actively care, and there would have been an edge of annoyance.
I have another date lined up too. I'm not going to live like a monk, that's for sure.
I've been doing a lot of fishing and gym work, and I'm now playing online war games with some buddies (yes, headset and all!). I bought a new watch, and keep adding to my fishing gear collection. My favourite purchase though was a blender! I've been buying these expensive juices from a jiuce bar to replace coffee, but now I'm doing it at home, and they're fantastic. I have several a day, and its all part of my continued health kick in conjunction with my weight training.
Had my son last week. I continue to wait on the porch at collection, sitting on the outside table setting, playing with my phone whilst last minute packing is done inside. There's usually a flustered apology from XW about S not being ready. I just smile and say it's ok.
XW came out and told me that she is going to keep the house for a while and buy another with a mortgage. My instant thought was good luck getting a mortgage now that you've given up your full time position and reverted back to casual! I said nothing though. She fired me as her H. My FT work position of many years, sterling credit rating and good income are now mine, and mine alone. She'll struggle to get credit (despite an excellent income), but that's life in her new normal. I just realised too that during the M I was the dude who organised all our loans, credit cards, major purchases etc. Even though I was the beta in our M, by god I pulled my weight and saved the family a lot of money with my haggling and bargaining and knowledge of the system.
She also told me about an old friend from University who got in touch after many years. I remember this friend, and she was a nice lady who we went to dinner with a few times. I just smiled, said that's great, then went back to reading from my phone. XW then told me in approving tones something about the tennis S and I had played (S must have told her I bought him a racquet). I just said 'Ok, thanks', then we left. She loudly told S that he can help with the lawn mowing tomorrow. I don't really know why she always yells stuff like that to him when we leave.
I always make sure to tell him to kiss and hug his mummy goodbye. I'm still faced with XW shrieking "S, your father is here!". The tone and objectification of that phrase is annoying and disrespectful, but I ignore it, and double down on making sure I'm very respectful of XW in front of my S. Flip the script, Alpha male doesn't care about these things, out G the G.
We had a play date at my house with lots of fun and laughter, and I actively engaged with the boys. We also went for a day trip. S and I are planning the next play date, and gel gun adventure. I don't think he does much at his mum's house.
Got a text from XW this morning. First one in over a week. Another lengthy detailed reminder about me looking after S one afternoon due to work, plus telling me he'd left something at my place. I was tempted to not reply frankly. She's notorious for these 'reminders' (even though I never need them or want them), which I honestly think is a power and control mechanism to make her feel like she is responsible and in control, despite me being perfectly capable and independent in my actions and what needs to be done. Indeed, it was sometimes a cause of me to tell her during M that I sometimes felt like she was my mother! For example, during the M I'd tell her something I was doing (ie loan application or Contract), which she wouldn't know how to do, or that it needed doing, then she would 'remind' me if I had done it yet!? Again, I think it had something to do with her wanting to maintain power and control, becuase she detested doing these this type of work.
Anyway, these 'reminders' are her schtick, and are important to her character type, so I deemed it would be courteous to respond, and a form of validation that she's being listened to. What did I say? Nothing. I just sent a 'thumbs up' emoji after about an hour. I'm too busy to type anything, and that emoji says it all really.
Got a text from ex MIL. She'd spoken to me recently about her health concerns, and I'd spoken to my BIL (my sister's husband) who's a surgeon and gave her some guidance, and told her I'm here if she needs me at all. The text was asking me what she'd been diagnosed with, as it was one of those lengthy medical terms, and she wanted to tell my ex SIL. I of course had remembered and told her. She replied simply with "You are a good man". It brought a tear to my eye - bloody MNG tendencies!
I've been in a lot of contact with my SD. She needs a car, and buying cars is my forte. She has a modest budget, so I told her I'd like to chip in to help. She politely declined. Anyway, we've been texting a lot about different cars. I'm enjoying the contact, and I'm being light hearted and funny in describing cars and such. Old me was quite stern and authoritarian with the kids. I'm now mixing life skill lessons with jokes, and I like the new me in that regard. SD and SS come to me instead of their father for things like this. To them, I'm still the go to guy who handles s#@t. To my XW, I'm now AMOAFWL.
DS, all sounds good, you're doing a great job at being AMOAFWL! Keep it up!
Thanks mate! A vote of confidence from someone like you really means a lot.
Hi all,
Just updating. Hope someone gets use from my recent experience.
I got a call from XW early this morning whilst waiting in the Doctor surgery. I don't know why I answered it - I think I thought it was an emergency due to the time.
XW - just calling to let you know I can't look after S next weekend and can't arrange care anywhere so we need to swap weekends (she works weekends). You can have him next weekend and I'll keep him this weekend
Me - I'm at the Doctors, and will speak with you later when I'm finished and had time to think about it.
XW - well I'm just telling you I cant look after him unless you want him alone at home
Me - I'm at the Dr's and cant talk, just send it in an email and I'll get back to you
XW- well, Im telling you. I don't need to write that down you can record this conversation
Me - I can say now I wont be swapping weekends as we have plans but we'll talk about it later ( I was getting a little snippy by this time).
I sent an email later.
In it, I apologised if I seemed short on the phone, as I slept in and was late for the Dr. I told her I appreciated it was frustrating and anxious to not have care arrangements for our S, BUT, when she calls and I tell her I cant talk, or need time to think, and she keeps talking, I feel IGNORED. I told her in future I needed an sms to let me know in advance if she wants to talk. I then said I can see she has no options to care, so I'll agree to swap weekends, but want him for a few hours tonight for dinner.
XW replied
Apologised too, and said she was anxious and had taken what I'd said on board. She said if I wanted to I could have him overnight and she'd collect in the morning, and asked if I was ok
I replied
Appreciated her apology and taking what I said on board, and I was sorry she was anxious. Said if anxiousness was ALSO due to how she feels about me, I'm here to listen IF she wants to talk about that. Told her I was ok.
I was surprised she apologised, very surprised she admitted she was anxious, then offered extra time (even though techincally it was my weekend).
I think I handled it ok. I was self reflective, non judgmental, empathetic, flexible, open to listening if she chose, but firm and concise in distilling how I felt about her behaviour and what I needed to avoid that feeling in future. Any thoughts? 2x4's welcome.
I'm of course not going to follow up with her on my last email. A firm, stable emotional wharf doesn't constantly beckon with words. It makes itself known that it is there, and it is safe. The boat chooses to dock. I chose to make it clear that she can talk if it's about any anxiety concerning ME - I'm not the 'emotional tampon' anymore, or a panacea. I'm not hubby who used to race out to the car when she pulled in at home ready to soothe and listen to her day at work and have dinner ready on the table. I'm AMOAFWL (or baby stepping towards that!)
I realise that despite my calmness, I am still triggered when she tells me what to do, and then persists even when I say I can't talk or need time to think.
Anyway, had a good IC session this morning. We discussed NGS, my childhood defense mechanisms, and my needs.
I thought you handled it very well. I’m impressed with her response too, if my H did that I think I’d drop dead from shock! Overall, a mature and reasonable exchange. I’m not sure if your final email was completely necessary - you could have just confirmed the plan and thanked her. But, not a big deal and if it felt like the right thing to do, don’t dwell on it.
Two different communication styles. Your X speaks like mine.
Obviously, you want her to ask you vs telling you. Set a boundary. Boundaries work.
I was thinking about our recent conversation.
When you _____
I feel_____
I want_____
If you continue_____
I appreciate______
Just stopping by your thread to let you know that somewhere in this world DS9 you were thought of kindly.
I'm still here for ya too DS9
I think you did really well DS. The triggering is normal I guess; I get that too especially from "request" texts/emails.
I agree - an apology is surprising. It is a welcome change certainly, so when that happens take a bit of pleasure from it!
It's amazing how NGS means you choose willingly to ignore your own needs, even simple ones, to placate your S in instead. You matter too!
Hi all,
Scout, Dab, IH, Roo, R2C, thanks heaps for checking in on me folks - really means a lot!
R2C - you're the go to guy for validation and boundaries - thanks again mate.
XW popped over on Saturday to grab my S and give me back some rope she borrowed. She sat in the car, so I grabbed the rope and leaned on the passenger side window sill (biceps bulging of course, as I'd been working out all morning) and I spoke to her about next changeover, then she asked to come in as it was sprinkling rain. My home, as always, was immaculate, and well decorated (I learned decorating from her and have paralleled her style because I like it so much). Offered her a coffee (I offer a drink to anyone who attends my home) and she immediately started venting about her work. Even though I wasn't interested, I paid attention whilst making coffee, with lot's of 'm-hmm's', concerned head nods and so on. During the M, almost very evening we'd spend up to an hour with her venting about work and me listening. Seems like she still knows where the safe emotional wharf is.
She then spoke of getting a great deal and bargaining on home air conditioning, with an enthusiastic 'way to go, great work!' from me. I think she was proud of that because she never bargains.
She thanked me again for swapping weekends (no problem), told me a house we had looked at just after BD was back on the market and I should look at buying it (m-hmm) and asked again with some concern if I was really ok healthwise (I'm fine, all good - (I'd been to the Doc Friday - old me would have told her why, what for, what Dr said, but nothing from me now, apart from it's all ok - an Alpha male handles his own s#*t, privately and discretely)). She started to ask more but S came into the kitchen.
XW told me SD had moved out and asked if I knew (Yes, I know), and this despite XW helping SD move because I couldn't help as I had plans that night, and XW borrowing my rope to do so.
XW said she'd put on weight and I said I'd lost weight. She said it must be all the walking I do (I smiled). Old me would have immediately said she looks fantastic, and old me didn't like walking, even though I'd almost always make the effort to go with her. At BD, she said I hadn't changed even though she'd been asking me to - well Missy, I have now, haven't I.
S and I then spoke of the upcoming sleepover with his friends, and XW commented about how my house was a real boyzone (I laughed, because my home has a strong 'feminine' feel, with lots of vases, cushions, glass ornaments, plants and so on, aside from the fishing rods in the lounge room and the guy stuff in the garage!), and yet again commented approvingly how I'm getting him involved in tennis and how he's been telling her about it (that's great).
I volunteered nothing, initiated nothing, spoke softly and about 5% to her 95%, and kept it light and upbeat.
As to GAL, I went on a date last week and another Saturday night. It's part of my GAL, I enjoy the company, and I'm not interviewing for a future wife. I'm finding these ladies fast becoming infatuated with me, even though I haven't really changed my nature aside from being more assertive and confident, and shed of some NGS characteristics. I'm really into talking to ladies in public or at the shops, engaging with them and even introducing myself! Old me was very introverted and too shy to talk to anyone, aside from the normal courtesies in passing.
I went fishing and shopping twice, cleaned the house and garage, lifted weights, and went walking a lot, and went out for steak last night. Probably spent too many hours playing online games with my mates though! I've started DR book and looking forward to finishing it.
Hope everyone's well!
Cheers, DS
DS you handled all of that amazingly well. Are you still wanting her to see the changes and come back?
Good job DS. I will refer to that thread for revision when I need to see W myself!
I like the idea of not revealing too many details. I'm exactly the same - old me would give every bit of info as it was felt to be crucial to the conversation. You did really well to remain calm and upbeat throughout. I must remember to speak much less than her - it adds to the mystery of your transformation.
Hey DS9, I just read through your sitch and you are making good strides given a challenging XW personality.
Raised by an abusive father, and then her first H was abusive as well? Did she/is she seeing a counselor to work through the huge impact these relationships have had on her?
So now she may be having a MLC, and she's following an astrology report like a script in making her life decisions? Okay then....
Before BD, were you truly happy in the M with your XW calling the shots and you carrying out "her vision", as you say? What was the dynamic between your parents in your household growing up?
As for your Dbing I see you are doing pretty well overall. I understand feeling somewhat triggered by your XW's "friendly reminder" texts LOL as I get them too. It's her anxiety and control issues. Personally I never respond to them because like you I already know what to do. It's like her texting me "BTW the sky is blue". But I think its fine to give the "okay" or "thumbs-up" emoji if you want, no real major harm done there. Also I would not have picked up the phone while at the Dr.'s office or really any other time. I'm busy. She can leave a message or text me and i'll get back to her, if necessary, when and how I choose, depending on the issue.
Our W's do have similar personalities in terms of acting tough, abrasive, controlling, etc. etc.- the type A so-called "alpha" female on steroids. Let me say a few things about this without going on a deep dive - first I know many and have dated numerous successful women who have it all going on, yet they are always in their feminine energy and they are very nice human beings - not abrasive controlling beeatches. So the strong woman who can handle her business does not have to be nasty to get it done. There is something separate going on with them that is a big problem.
The more "alpha" or masculine energy a woman has, the more R problems she is likely to encounter, and let me tell you I work and have worked with many many successful women over the past 25 years and have had a front row seat to it all. Women like your XW have a tough time because no alpha male is going to tolerate her needing to be at the helm. There is a meme out there that these types of women just need an ultra-alpha male to "tame" them, and they will then "submit". But in real life all the alphas I know and let me say I work in an industry with many of them, none of them have been successful and happy with a tough as nails alpha female. Most don't; even go that route - they go with the much more feminine women. Anecdotal but what else can I say.
So an over-the-top alpha female can link up with a more subservient guy who will let her run the show, maybe that will work? I have seen some of that but boy they don't seem happy. I think the woman ends up having some trouble with respecting a man who lets her call the shots. What a dilemma for them.
Look I had a W who understood and respected my alpha mindset despite her own aggressive, need-to-be-dominant nature, and she stayed in her lane. No way would I have married her otherwise. But after the wedding and the kids come out, she ratchets it up on me and day-to-day life is nothing but a power struggle. It's no way to live. So look at our respective sitches DB9 - same type of woman generally, two H's at opposite ends of the submission/dominance spectrum, same result.
Enough pontificating LOL. What type of woman do you want to spend the rest of your short life on this globe with?
No intention of hijacking your thread DS, but Gekko - my W is an alpha too! Always calling the shots, likes to be in charge, not happy sitting around, always restless, dominating. I was subservient and passive.
It's interesting how it's only when they've left a hole for us to fill that we realise this. When we're in the midst of it all, it really is not obvious, and nobody tells you either.
Raised by an abusive father, and then her first H was abusive as well? Did she/is she seeing a counselor to work through the huge impact these relationships have had on her?
Hey Gekko,
Thanks for coming on board mate - appreciate it.
She wasn't really raised by her dad. He was around, but not around, always doing his own thing. He beat her up once when she was sleeping because she laughed at him earlier in the day. Both her parents did their own thing. She was pretty much left to her own devices, but her mum was primary carer. Her mum's definitley an alpha, as was her dad. I never met her dad. She hated him, and didn't go to his funeral. After she told me what he was like to her, I told her I wish he was still alive so I could confront him. I was very protective of my XW. Her dad is buried overseas.
At the right time, I'm going to ask XW to go to his grave and let her feelings out and pray for closure of that chapter, if not for her, then for everyone else and our S, SS and SD who feels the invisible impact of her being let down by the one who was meant to protect and raise her.
Her first H punched her when she was pregnant. She's been in many short term relationships. I think one ended with her getting a restraining order. I remember a few years ago we had an argument and she told me she felt like punching me in the face. She spoke with pride about punching a boy at school who picked on her friend, and kneeing a woman at a party who slapped her. I never raised a finger. A few times I had to step in when her and SS became physical to protect her.
No counselling that I'm aware of to deal with the impact of these events. She wouldn't get counselling, as she says she doesn't need it. She wanted to be a counsellor herself and is around counsellor's, psychs etc all the time due to her work. Her way of dealing is shutting out these people from her life. The pain is still there as I saw it a few times in her face, then she quickly went back to normal. She studied psychology for years. We would often talk about her fellow students studying it to try to understand and fix themselves. I think I now know why she studied psych.
So now she may be having a MLC, and she's following an astrology report like a script in making her life decisions? Okay then....
Yeah, it's a headspin. Nobody tells her what to do, unless it's an astrology report or a psychic, or an online tarot reading.
Before BD, were you truly happy in the M with your XW calling the shots and you carrying out "her vision", as you say? What was the dynamic between your parents in your household growing up?
Frankly, I was fine with her calling the shots. I'm easy going, and she was very astute with her decisions, most of the time. 95% of the time, I agreed, except where she wanted to do something that was just outside our capacity, unrealistic, or would cost too much. My job is high stress, and I'm making big decisions for other people, so I like to have a break. So, on balance, I was happy with that dynamic.
My parents were complicated. My mum was so lethargic she barely got off the couch, she never cleaned and cooked infrequently. I was left to my own devices, and looked after my younger brother too. Dad was loving, but often at work. He made the decisions, but he wasnt a very good decision maker. We moved house every year, he made good money but we were often short as he spent frivolously. I remember him always being fed up with my mum's laziness and they quarrelled often. He was a good man though who endured. Neither of them understood each other I think.
Thanks heaps for your insight on the alpha/beta dynamic. It's not pontificating at all. Your experiences are very valuable to my understanding of things. I'm pretty naive about all that, and had never heard of this til I came on the forum. That said, XW would often talk about these types of people she encountered at work (but we didn't label them alphas), calling them 'tossers' and how she would get one up on them becuase she disliked them intensely and clashed with them all the time. I saw what I now know as alphas as being people who needed power and control over others to make themselves feel good about themselves, which both XW and I rebelled against if it was a third party we were dealing with. I'm very good at handling these types in my work, and would give XW hints and tips on how to deal with them too.
XW having no filter before speaking didn't help either. A few years ago she had huge trouble with a supervisor who had it in for her. XW was very anxious, and we got her out of that office. Frankly, I think we lasted as long as we did because of the fact I was so easy going, supportive and tolerant of my XW.
What type of woman do you want to spend the rest of your short life on this globe with?
I want a strong, independent woman. But, that woman also needs to be able to listen to me and not place me as a 3rd or 4th priority, and just be reasonable. She also needs to be attractive haha!
Thanks again Gekko.
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Roo, thanks again for your support. I'm a little torn in answering your question. Yes, I do want her to see the changes. But, I've also realised that my emotional and physical changes were a long time coming for me, but I didnt have the intense pain or loss to make those changes, nor did I know how to. I suppose part of my motivation was "F you XW, you say you wanted me to change, but I didn't, so now you've changed, and I'm not part of that - well, challenge accepted!"
After BD, she kept wagging her finger in my face shrieking "People change when they divorce" and "Words mean nada, actions DS, actions!". Well, I flipped the script on her. Some guys seek 'vengeance' on their X by stalking, harassing, making life hell, financially withholding, bad mouthing etc. Heck, all her divorced friends played their tales of woe in that regard on repeat. My riposte (not vengeance) was to become the best interpretation of DS I could be, and AMOAFWL. She projected me as being her XH, father and all previous boyfriends rolled into one. I told her I wasn't them, nor would I ever be - I didn't just say that with words, I demonstrated it with actions.
As to her coming back - I assess a 0.01% prospect.
If she did, we would have a lot of talking to do about our mutual needs and how we reconcile those, and where we can't, what resources will we harness to learn to live with and accept those differences. I crossed a major hurdle there with my SS, who for many years was a huge source of conflict between me and XW, to the point where we nearly separated several times. SS and I now get on great. He is a fine young man now, and he changed in the space of a few short months, and all after BD.
XW having no filter before speaking didn't help either. Frankly, I think we lasted as long as we did because of the fact I was so easy going, supportive and tolerant of my XW.
DS, this is my W too - 'speak before thinking'! - and I was too tolerant of some of her behaviour as well. How interesting that so many of us have Ss with very similar personality traits.
I know you are exploring your upbringing and childhood in IC, keep it up it will be helpful in understanding not only how you got to where you are but also in navigating future choices. Also looking at XW's background is important as there were plenty of red flags that you want to recognize in future developing R's, if you do not end up reconciling with XW.
There are plenty of strong independent women out there who are also feminine and nice people, who had wonderful upbringings and good R's with their fathers. I have dated some in the past and they are great and have a whole different thing going on then the uber-alpha women who can be harsh, rigid and need to be on the wheel all the time. In my experience the good ones, despite being able to handle their business on their own quite well, are still looking for a man who is decisive and can lead with confidence in the R.
Hi all,
S and I have been talking about what type of house I should buy next year. I want him involved in that. When doing so, he mentioned how much cash I got from our settlement. I asked him how he knew, and he told me he saw it in the account when mummy did internet banking, and mummy said it was mine and she didn't have much money left. I was a bit stunned, so told him mummy got money and she got a house too, as I think he thought I got more than his mum (and I didn't want him thinking she got not much at all, or I somehow screwed her over, when she got the lions share).
Anyway, we're planning his sleepover this weekend and looking forward to that.
Saw XW yesterday for a PT meeting. I was dressed to the 9's again haha. She parked next to me, and S came out to talk whilst I was in the car. XW stood outside, and I gave her a brief, disinterested greeting, which was reciprocated. XW made a flourish of moving our seats apart before we sat. S is doing really, really well at school. I was so worried he'd lag due to the separation. XW got quite annoyed when during the meeting my phone pinged twice with sms', telling me quite curtly to switch my phone off like she had. I ignored her. She shot off after the meeting. I'm finding I don't want to see her or be around her.
[quote=DS9]
DS, this is my W too - 'speak before thinking'!
Absolutely! The unfiltered stream of consciousness. She knew she had that, and sometimes couldn't control it. It got embarrassing soemtimes.
I know you are exploring your upbringing and childhood in IC, keep it up it
Thanks Gekko. Yes, I'm staying the course with this, and have really heeded your advice about these ultra alpha women and what to look out for. Thanks again mate!
Hi all
Neeed help asap please
Just seeking some quick feedback and opinions please....
I'm foreshadowing on setting some boundaries soon and am rehearsing how I'll do it.
Context is XW telling me what to do in connection with care for our S while she works.
Trying to find the right 'word' or 'phrase' here:
"XW, when you tell me, instead of asking me, you need me or want me to do X, I feel (INSERT WORD I"M TRYING TO COME UP WITH)...blah blah
I dont want to use words like "used", "taken advantage of", "your PA" "your babysitter"
Any thoughts?
Thanks guys
"XW, when you tell me, instead of asking me, you need me or want me to do X, I feel (INSERT WORD I"M TRYING TO COME UP WITH)...blah blah
I dont want to use words like "used", "taken advantage of", "your PA" "your babysitter"
Any thoughts?
Thanks guys
Disrespected
Thanks buddy
Was actually thinking of this word, but, there were a few times in the M when respect came up, and XW would say 'respect is earned'. Worried therefore about inviting another one of these monologues from her.
Or, maybe it doesnt matter now and I should just say the word disrespected?
Cheers DS
Was actually thinking of this word, but, there were a few times in the M when respect came up, and XW would say 'respect is earned'. Worried therefore about inviting another one of these monologues from her.
if it comes up again:
W:"Respect is earned"
H:"I agree. If you want me to consider your options, you will respect what I have asked."
I would argue you don’t earn respect you command respect.
This is gold. Thanks guys, and for answering so quickly!
Another quick question with some urgent replies please if possible
XW just sms'd me on another matter. She has just got a full time position again in her seconded office after quitting full time a few weeks ago in her original office (she quit so she didn't have to go back to the original office, which she didnt like).
Um, not sure if I should congratulate her, or how. I've been really concise and businesslike in sms.
Getting full time would be a big deal for her. It was a huge thing a few years ago to get it in her seconded office, and very hard to obtain full time in her employment. I really supported her in getting full time and it was a big focus on our lives at the time. I was very happy and so enthused for her when she originally got FT, but things have changed and I've been fired
I'm pretty sure her Love Language is words of affirmation. I don't want to congratulate or even acknowledge but think I should. Her getting FT also means she doesnt work every weekend and can spend quality time with our S every 2nd weekend (whihc she pointed out in her sms) instead of getting SS or SD to look after him. It laos means though we need to swap around our week about equal care arrangement. Therefore, I think I shoudl say soemthing by reply sms...
Something like....
"That's fantastic news XW, way to go. It must be such a relief getting full time - proud of you. It's really great too you get your weekends to spend quality time with S. Swapping weekends shouldnt be a problem at all, but just let me check and get back to you as I had a couple planned weekends with S in November and December. Regds DS"
What do you think? This would be one of the longest sms I've sent since BD
Too much!
Congratulations!
Thanks LH
Yeah, thought it may be be a bit over the top, but I saw in the validation thread some similar stuff where the X got a job or promotion.
So, I'll now do-
Congratulations! Swapping weekends shouldnt be a problem at all, but just let me check and get back to you as I had a couple planned weekends with S in November and December. Regds DS"
Cheers, DS
DS your second revision sounds great. You are able to give affirmation but also letting her know that although you are willing to consider the swapping weekends you have to make sure it works for you.
Just checking in to see how things are going.
Just checking in to see how things are going.
Hey Roo
Thanks for checking in buddy. How you been?
Babysteps with getting on with things continue.
Ended up curtailing my response to just congratulations, no worries to weekend swap. Further emails between us with when this new regime is to start, and I'm being accommodating, in my usual fashion. I'm going back to my younger days in adopting the mantra of 'no worries' to pretty much everything. XW asked me when we should start weekend swap and I told her when. Old me would have left it to her. Old her would have not asked.
Anyway, she ended up asking how we're going to swap, as it stuffs up our old weekabout system. Was tempted to tell her to propose something, but I just worked it out myself, as I have more confidence in my ability to do these things, plus its done to my satisfaction
S had sleepover with 3 mates the other weekend. He had an absolute blast and we're planning another one.
Tennis continues, and I'm having fun with that twice a week. I've been doing weight training every day now for 5 months and I'm just starting to become really pleased with the changes to my physique and satisfied I'm no longer a skinny slob. I've bought one of those you beaut scales that tell you body fat etc and I've got some goals there now too. Currently 43% muscle and 18% fat. I'm aiming for 100% muscle, 0% fat, and, most improtantly, 110% emotional intelligence. I've had a couple of IC sessions recently and we're exploring IFS. It really applies to me. Slowly getting through DR and yet to start NMMNG. I had a date last week too.
My ex MIL called last week to arrange to give me a gift voucher and update her health. A lot of talk introduced by her about XW. They're still not talking. I listened but stated XW is going through a difficult time and needs compassion and empathy, but has said she is happy so that's all that counts, and it's not my concern any more anyway. We talked a lot about what we're each doing for GAL. MIL told me I need to find a new partner and will find someone who deserves me. I laughed and told her I'm focusing on my S and on improving myself. My MIL is a good woman, and has always been good to me.
S and I visited her on the weekend and had a good time, but MIL kept asking me if I have found a new woman, hinting the gift she gave me can be used for two people. I'm starting to feel a little uncomfortable actually. Hope she doesnt try and set me up with one of her septuagenarian mates!
Hi all,
Seeking some opinions again please.
XW changed job schedule recently. It allows her to spend alternate weekend time with our S now, but she works a few days during the week now as well. Under old schedule, she would collect S from school during my week, and I would collect him from XW after I finished work.
I've received many many texts from her over the last week, including telling me about a few afternoons where she cant collect S now due to work (a real inconvenience for me) and including asking me nicely to take S to school on a couple of mornings during her time with him when she needs to get to work early. I've agreed on 2 occasions (but she needs to drop him to my place first), but she's now asked for 2 more, explaining she needs to earn money now her new schedule is less pay, and thanking me for understanding. I've not replied.
My NGS is saying 'yes' but my DB forum learned critical mind is saying attempted 'cake-eating'! There's only a few weeks left of school here, and next year he'll take a bus. During the M, for years I was taking all the kids to school and predominantly picking them up, and was also the taxi service for my step kids in their teens, letting XW sleep during those late night pick ups after the kids were at a party - but she fired me as husband.
Any thoughts please?
Hi DS
Hmm a difficult one. Not being a father, I may not be the best person to give advice, but here's my bit:
You have been accommodating in agreeing to 2 occasions where you will help her out. Pus you've stipulated terms (i.e. drop him at yours first) so you're not being too passive which is good.
Definitely don't just agree and say yes immediately to the two extra occasions.
On one hand you want to help S. On the other, she seemingly doesn't want you, yet needs your help here.
She needs to understand that you're not a taxi service anymore, but at the same time you don't want this to affect S in a detrimental way. Could you suggest S gets a lift with a friend whose parent can take him to her place?
DS, sounds like her work situation changed and that the request is legit and not just some attempt to take advantage of you. If that's the case then I would suggest working with her if it's not a huge inconvenience to you. This kind of stuff does happen in coparenting. Personally I feel it's best to try to remain a little flexible on these requests because you might need the favor returned. My XW and I have had to move days around and even switch entire weeks to work around work travel, meetings and overtime.