Onward and upward! - DivorceBusting.com

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Concert was awesome!!!

I�m feeling emotional right now. Maybe cause I drank too much. I miss my W. But I realize I�m worth having. I�m
Worth being loved. I didn�t realize the toll bd takes on your ego. I touched her a bit at show. I put my hand in her back. I grabbed her hand once to lead her around. She didn�t reciprocate but she didn�t pull away either. She was chatty on the way home. She didn�t act bothered by anything I did.

I�ve just had a bit to drink and m venting

I miss her. But I want to let her go at the same time. Sometimes I feel Like it�s all too much. Then I feel strong and like nothing could slow me down. I�ve made a lot of progress. Then sometimes it feels like very little. But more than anything I miss her. She isn�t perfect. We were imperfect together. We filled each other�s gaps I�m sitting on my front porch. Listening to the rain. And my ears are ringing like crazy from the show

I didn�t have expectations. I�m not spiraling. I guess I�m just feeling the pain right now. I�ve done such a good job lately of GAL and detaching. But at this moment. It�s just a bit much. Concerts are our thing. I just miss her damnit

I�m sorry for this rant. But I know if al the people in the world you guys get it. We didn�t have a bad evening. It went just fine. It just wasn�t great. This is just me having a moment I guess

Steve they played Pantera�s old song respect. Singer started crying over loss of Vinnie Paul It was a very good show

Thanks for letting me do my thing guys

Tomorrow it�s back on the DBing horse

Thanks

Oz

Originally Posted by Ozman

She isn�t perfect. We were imperfect together. We filled each other�s gaps

Ozman, imagine becoming so powerful, you don't need a partner to fill your gaps. You're getting there. Glad there were was some progress and it was a good night. Sorry it wasn't a great night.

Hang in there oz. We all have days where we feel sad and start thinking about how tough things are. Just remember that as time goes on, the moments of sadness will decrease. Just think about how much better you feel in general now compared to around BD. Tomorrow will be a better day! Make it so.

You are going to make it, Oz! You are stronger than you think.

((hugs))

Originally Posted by ozman

I didn�t have expectations. I�m not spiraling. I guess I�m just feeling the pain right now. I�ve done such a good job lately of GAL and detaching. But at this moment. It�s just a bit much. Concerts are our thing. I just miss her damnit

I�m sorry for this rant. But I know if al the people in the world you guys get it. We didn�t have a bad evening. It went just fine. It just wasn�t great. This is just me having a moment I guess

Steve they played Pantera�s old song respect. Singer started crying over loss of Vinnie Paul It was a very good show

Love Pantera, man!

I feel you Oz - concerts were W and my thing too. At least W went with you. My W will not speak to me or ride in the same car anymore - she says she doesn't want to give me hope.

Try to see the positive in that you both went together and you had a great time. That's a win in any column

Stay strong, man

Originally Posted by ozman

Concert was awesome!!! ....she didn�t pull away either. She was chatty on the way home. She didn�t act bothered by anything I did.

I believe this is a good sign. Keep your positive changes going.

Can you re-frame your experience for me? IE how do you feel about your behavior.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change

Originally Posted by ozman

Concert was awesome!!! ....she didn�t pull away either. She was chatty on the way home. She didn�t act bothered by anything I did.

I believe this is a good sign. Keep your positive changes going.

Can you re-frame your experience for me? IE how do you feel about your behavior.

That is a good question.

You say you feel like superhuman right now. You have to be careful that these endorphins aren�t only because they are yielding positive responses from your W. It needs to be because you feel so good about yourself right now. And if your W was yo stop with the positive response, you would still feel awesome because the changes you are making are for you

Originally Posted by Ginger1

It needs to be because you feel so good about yourself right now. And if your W was yo stop with the positive response, you would still feel awesome because the changes you are making are for you

And to add to this. You should still feel awesome even if you W decided to make out with some guy at the show.

Her behavior should not affect how you feel. It might affect how you respond.

I know the feeling Oz. There are times when I feel like I am detaching pretty well than times I miss her so much. Just like today, we met up for lunch and talked about our D school clothing, supplies, pick up, drop off. etc. That's when I realize I still do really miss her so much but know she isn't the same person anymore.

Its definitely going to take time. No need to apologize, better to let us know than keeping it to yourself. There are so many great people in here that understands what we are going through and gives great insight and advice. My parents been together foreverrrrr - and all they tell me is why you still thinking about her when she cheated on you? I tell her it's not that easy to just forget but they are so old school, they don't understand where I am at. That is why I come on and vent, ask questions, & journal here.

There was a quote I ran across today, I forgot where I saw it but it states "Your taste in people will change when you learn to love yourself." So many thoughts ran through my head but in the end what comes to mind is working on myself to become a better, confident person no matter what the future brings. And from what I can tell, you are doing a great job at it.

Stay positive, stay strong! You got this!

Thanks everybody!!!

R2C there was a couple times I made contact I felt nervous doing it. Then there was a couple times it felt totally natural

In the beginning of the show I felt really confident. I did what you said. I put my hand on her back. Les her to the shirts and bought her one. I was oozing confidence for a while. Towards the end of the show I started second guessing myself. She seemed like I might be making her uncomfortable. But we were in the pit and it was really hot and crowded in there

At the end if she had a bad time she didn�t let me know it.

She woke me up this morning cause I slept over my alarm. We talked for a second. She squeezed my foot on the way by the bed in an affectionate way. She left bedroom and I thought I might have heard her say ILY. But I�m very unsure of that cause my ears are ringin so bad today.

I had a great time last night. Part of it is regardless of W. Part of it is because of her. I would be naive if I say she has zero bearing in my mood. But I have made progress in that dept.

We did have a few very close moments

I really don�t know how to categorize last night

I�m in a weird funk today. Lol. Not sad. But not happy. It�s weird.

But I�m stayin true to the new thread name. Onward and upward!

I recommend pulling back a bit tonight. Create distance. Grab S and go to park and feed the ducks (or something like that).

Because?

IMO it shows that you are cool, you got crap going on, your not just sitting around waiting for her to squeeze your foot again. Make her wonder, be a little mysterious, you have a life and it doesn't revolve around her.

You touched her last night, you initiated some contact so you back off some and give her space. Guys with options, with a life, with interests, with their crap together don't sit around and wait to be squeezed again.

Her attraction will increase for you in that space.

I might have goofed up. Her sister and her husband were at concert too. Her sisters husband is one of my best friends. I kinda spilled the beans to him last night. Didn�t mean to it just came out. He promised he wouldn�t say anything. Him and his wife (my Ws sister) are having MAJOR problems.

Ws sister told her last night she needed to talk to her. Hope it�s not about what I told him. He got really drunk last night

Sigh

Well hopefully you didn�t tell him your strategies and that you are getting help from strangers on the Internet.

This is why I stopped having even a single drink around my W.

Lol nope. Just that W and I were having issues too. He was like �we married some crazy sisters man�. Lol they have been together for 19 years

Hey guys. Hope everyone is well.

Just wanted to stop by and say thanks for all the advice the other night. It was golden advice. Nothing really to report. Just wanted to say hello. Been feelin super melancholy since concert. Things went well enough that it stirred up some stuff I was buryin. But it feels different now. More like I miss her. But there is acceptance mixed in. I look at her differently the last couple days. Been a little more pain than normal. But it�s more of a letting go pain. If that makes sense at all. Kinda like a saying goodbye type of pain. It�s really hard to describe. Maybe it�s finally acceptance. I don�t know. Gotta get done new GAL lined up. Work has been tough and school just started and S is not enjoying it lol.

Thanks

Oz

Quote

I recommend pulling back a bit tonight. Create distance. Grab S and go to park and feed the ducks (or something like that).

Because?

Whenever there is a moment that causes positive emotions for the LBH, the WAW will often pull back the following day b/c she doesn't want him to think they are reconciling just b/c they had a moment. She doesn't want him making more of it than it really is.........so she'll pull back to remind him nothing has changed.

I think R2C was telling you to pull back a little, to show that you aren't phased by the playful actions from your W, or that you enjoyed a concert together. It is a way to protect your own emotions, instead of "watching" her to see how she's going to act.

You may experience these type of emotions several times. It seems whenever the LBH has a day where his emotions run high (and especially if he feels a boost of hope), invariably, it will be followed by a period of feeling "down". It doesn't mean anything expect that it's emotions, and you have to keep them balanced as much as possible.

Instead of trying to analyze what all this means, just follow R2C's advice and get busy. Remember, pulling back does not mean to act cold, sullen, mad. You just don't hoover over her, sit and watch her, etc. You GAL.

Thanks Sandi! I appreciate. And also TB from above.

It�s good to know my feelings are normal. It was a good time.

Gotta get some stuff figured out for this weekend. Need to go out a do a lot of GAL

I�m checking myself here. I saw that she bought some pretty sexy new underwear. She hasn�t hid them
Or anything. I don�t pay attention to it or think about it. I just note it. Go out GAL. apply the NMMNG techniques I�m
Learning and go be awesome and confident and proud of me right?

This is the correct way right?

Quote

Learning and go be awesome and confident and proud of me right?

This is the correct way right?

Sounds good to me.

So something interesting.

Ws whole body cracks and pops and hurts in the morning. Every morning without fail. She has been this way since before we met. I would pop her back for her for years. (Us hugging her arms around my neck and me squeezing her)

After BD this ABRUPTLY stopped. I would ask if she wanted her back popped and she would say no even though I knew it was hurting

After concert the other night I�ve been DBing even harder than normal. Yesterday after work I picked up a couple tickets for another rock show coming to town. It�s one of her favorite bands. I casually gave her her ticket yesterday. She was surprised and really happy.

This morning I got up went for my run got back made an awesome breakfast. She was standing there trying to massage her hands cause her joints hurt. I don�t know what made me do it cause I knew it would probably blow up in my face but I held out my hand. She looked at me and then put her hand in mine and I massaged it for a min. It was a very close min with a lot of good tension.

A little bit later she asked if I could pop her back. She wrapped her arms around me and I did. Then I gave her a short back massage.

I shouldn�t read into this at all right? But this is a first since bd.

Thanks

Oz

I think I can say with 100% certainty that the answer from all will be correct, do not read into this. What I�ve cone to understand is that these types of things might be slightly meaningful, but could just as easily be completely meaningless. The point is not to spend energy trying to figure it out. I�m NO expert, but I think you can notice it, even enjoy it briefly, and then let it go.

Originally Posted by HopeCA

you can notice it, even enjoy it briefly, and then let it go.

Good advise.

Ok thanks for that. That�s exactly what I did. It�s happened a couple times now. I enjoy the closeness. Then when it ends I let it go and don�t think about it. It�s easier than I thought it would be

So I took your advice. I went and got some new shoes. Not the same style I would normally wear. Got some new shirts and shorts. Changing up my look some. Made me feel pretty good. I�m gonna try to revisit the hair next. Difficult with the radiation damage but I�ll figure something out.

Had a great weekend (why do they always go so fast?). Played cards with friends again went shopping. I�m going over to neighbors tonight to help him more with his truck. Then I�m gonna change u joints on mine.

I�m getting stuff done around house like crazy. Loving spending time with S he is a real blast to be around.

I also wanted to mention that the depression in the mornings is starting to go away. I�m looking forward to work instead of dreading the day.

None of this would have happened without me finding this website and you excellent people

Thank you

Oz

I find the mornings the worst - at night, just before I go to bed I try to distract myself by watching a comedy on TV or reading something non-fiction and humorous. But when I wake up, I'm reminded that things are falling apart and she's not beside me in bed, she's 50 miles away alone in our house. I can't give her a kiss goodbye as I leave for work.

But then I get up and that feeling goes. I am trying to wake up and get out of bed instantly when I wake up. I try to do a bit of exercise like sit ups or something to pass the time before I need to leave for work (I'm staying at my parents' house, and that is only a 5 min drive to work as opposed to a 75min drive). So I'd recommend that if you can. It's not easy to do ti every day, sometimes I just fall back to sleep, but at least trying it will make you feel good.

Hey Dan. Ya mornings were rough before I started excercise. But they have been a lot better lately since running in the mornings. (That was sandis suggestion).

I hope you start feeling better soon Dan

Question now that I have initiated a little touching now and then at concert. And her with the back popping thing. Is this something I continue. Slight touching now and then? Trying to build a little tension. Or do I go back to letting her initiate?

Thanks

Oz

Did I offend?

Originally Posted by ozman

Question now that I have initiated a little touching now and then at concert. And her with the back popping thing. Is this something I continue. Slight touching now and then? Trying to build a little tension. Or do I go back to letting her initiate?

For now, I would let her initiate.

You initiate when it is natural. Leading her through a crowd. Leaning in to talk when it is loud.

Ok thanks R2C. I appreciate it. Sitting on porch last night beside me. I gave her a back rub. She didn�t seem to mind. I�ll back off some

Yes back off.......she knows what she told you, she knows there has been no sex, she knows your a man and you want sex. You don�t want to come across as desperate, needy, and thirsty.

Ok thank you. I think I was getting sucked in a little. This is really difficult to mix the DBing and treating her like a cat but also the touching thing

I also don�t want to get sucked in mentally and be hit with Bd # 2. Yuk.

This all seems very tedious

One thing I always do. When we are walking in a parking lot or on a sidewalk, I will"guide" her to walk on the inside of me, away from the car traffic (in a lot), or away from the for traffic coming the other way. She feels taken care of when I do that.

Thanks Steve. That�s a good idea.

I�m trying to keep my head level. Things have been going really well. As in really well. At the same time she Bd me and she still makes a conscious decision to not say I love you and she may be msging somebody else.

It�s hard to make those things mix in my head. I think I�m still failing at gal. I think I need to try harder. I�m also still too attached I think. That�s why there is so much angst I believe

Ozman, based on the frequency of your thread changing titles, and your progress resuming successful physical contact with your partner, you're doing amazing at GAL and Detachment compared to earlier.

Originally Posted by ozman

Sitting on porch last night beside me. I gave her a back rub.

What did she give you in advance (or in return)?

I guess in that light you are right CW. It just doesn�t seem like much compared to others on here.

Maybe I could have so help understanding something. I had really thought I had put these feelings behind me. There is a reason I changed my thread name to onward and upward. Cause most of the time that�s where it seems like I�m headed. Ever since the concert 1 week ago. We have had physical contact several times. A few hand on the backs a few front to front hug type back poppings. A hand massage here and there. A back rub last night. Which I may have accidentally later on a little thick. Maybe. I�m not sure. It�s so small. But it�s a good thing. And I feel like crap I actually got teary eyed earlier. It�s like an improvement makes me sad. I know this is a long road. And I�m only 2.5 months in. But it�s hard to be still.

R2C just saw yours so I�m editing this to reply.

She was wincing. Her back is in constant pain. She sat down beside me on porch. I just reached over and started. She was enjoying it (easy to tell). I worked my way down her her arm to her hand. I was there for a bit and then she said �I have to go put S in bed�. And got up and left. Whole massage lasted maybe 5 min. She didn�t initiate. I guess my bad

Originally Posted by ozman

She didn�t initiate. I guess my bad

As long as you had no intentions or expectation, I think it is OK.

There is a balance on doing things. Women score things different than men,

You get more points for 10 five minute back rubs than 1 two hour back rub.

This is how things SHOULD be in a healthy relationship:

W:"Will you do this and that for me"
H:"Yes, Would you make your yummy fried chicken for dinner?"

Ok thank you!!!!

So how does this mix with her MAYBE texting somebody. (I found out her sisters and my sister text her on FB messenger or am I just ignoring that still? Cause an alpha doesn�t care right

It is nice she isn�t repulsed my me anymore.

Originally Posted by ozman

She was enjoying it (easy to tell). I worked my way down her her arm to her hand. I was there for a bit and then she said �I have to go put S in bed�.

Are you sure she was enjoying it? Sounds to me like she was maybe just tolerating it, then when you got to her hand that was too personal and she excused herself. Just be careful, I think you're applying too much pressure to her. I know it's tempting but she's not there yet.

She was letting her head droop and visibly enjoying it. She had just stepped out for a cigarette and it was done. It was past S�s bedtime and she wanted to get to bed too. Now saying that I did wonder if I took it a touch too far with the hand thing. It just seemed like it might be ok cause she put her hand in mine the other day for me to rub it.

But AnotherStander i think you might be right as well. The last thing I want to do is pressure her.

Originally Posted by ozman

So I took your advice. I went and got some new shoes. Not the same style I would normally wear. Got some new shirts and shorts. Changing up my look some. Made me feel pretty good. I�m gonna try to revisit the hair next. Difficult with the radiation damage but I�ll figure something out.
Oz

Hey Oz. Nice one mate. If you've got one of those name brand 2nds outlets near you, go there for clothes and accessories - cheap, unique and variety. Depending on your age, budget, physique and fitting in with your community style (rural, urban etc), you cant go wrong with several quality cotton fine knit polo shirts instead of t-shirts (Target is ok if you have limited choice). Go a little smaller size than usual, especially if you have a good physique, and get the ones with the elasticated bit at the end of the sleeve, esp if you have good biceps.

Ditch the boardies and go with those above knee swimming/active style shorts and colour match with the top you wear (google colour matching). Less casual would be those denim/cotton material 'cargo/chino' shorts, but without those big square flappy pockets at the bottom front. Try to wear colours that highlight your eye colour (you can google this). Try thin small knit cotton v neck sweaters - again, tight fit to accentuate. Match with chino style pants, or stylish jeans. Go for 'slim fit' style clothes, subject to whether you have a beer gut of course lol! Don't fear tasteful floral or light pink tops, polos etc. Don't worry if your mates bag you - I bet they'll eventually copy you.

Ditch the pluggers and get quality thongs or better, stylish man sandals, or even nice leather casual slip ons. If more formal, try the elastic side style boots (RM Williams style but far sleeker) and get in tan and black colours and keep them polished. Brand is Shaw & Smith from Mathers - currently on sale - they look great! I wear them to work.

Unless your W likes long hair, cut it and keep it trim and styled. I get mine done every 3 weeks now. Before it would be once every 1.5 mths. Remember what style your wife liked, then change it a little. If your wife likes a beard, grow it but trim every day. I got a Schick trimmer/razor combo from Woolies on special for $10. Trim your eyebrows, nose, ears, nails etc.

Cologne! Cologne Cologne! I'd only use on special occasions but now drown in it. I like Cool Water, Tabac or 4711. look for specials at your local chemist and stock up. If cologning, avoid overly smelly deodorant and get a neutral smell roll on for perspiration. Subject to budget, try for a new good brand chronograph wrist watch in metal.

If like me your modest ego took a punch to the guts then a kick on the way down, you will feel a lot better wearing the best you can as often as you can on the budget you can afford! Stick your chest out, back straight, and without looking like an ape, walk around like you're carrying a barrel under each arm!

Do all of the above, especially if you're going to run into or see your wife's family/friends etc. It will be relayed - trust me. Do not ask your wife if she noticed you bought new stuff, changed your style, or if she likes it.

Maybe think about adding something to your home too? Nice glass vase and some lillies in your own little corner of the house smell and look great. Maybe make a terrarium (or several) with your kids and chuck it on the kitchen bench. I'm in my own rental since a few months ago - I went all out buying homewares, decorative pieces, oriental ornaments, furniture etc. I didn't realise how much I loved this stuff, and it made me feel better, apart from the fact that my XW was a home deco wiz and I wanted to 'out G the G'. Domestically too, especially make sure you keep the toilet lid down, blu loo topped up, toilet paper the right way and roll holder always stocked. Ask me if you want any 'domestic' tips if this is one of your 180's.

Hope this helps. Good luck mate!

Originally Posted by ozman

She was letting her head droop and visibly enjoying it. She had just stepped out for a cigarette and it was done. It was past S�s bedtime and she wanted to get to bed too. Now saying that I did wonder if I took it a touch too far with the hand thing. It just seemed like it might be ok cause she put her hand in mine the other day for me to rub it.

But AnotherStander i think you might be right as well. The last thing I want to do is pressure her.

Before my XW ended it, I was often her 'personal groomer', tweezerer, and moisturiser applier, shoe putter onner etc etc,. After, this all stopped. A few times, she asked me to check something on her etc, whihc I did in a businesslike fashion. A little while ago she asked me out of the blue to check something on the back of her neck. This type of thing pre BD would usually lead to me roaming elsewhere, which she loved. As it was, I brushed my finger lightly over the area, looked, there was nothing there, I told her so, then walked off. In my view, keep it businesslike, don't show any pleasure or excitement if she asks you to do it and when doing it, and end the task without going further "all done W". Maybe even try saying sorry my fingers are sore/tired/cold. Cheers.

So I have some terms I need to look up lol

Boardies, chino , pluggers Lol I feel uncultured lol. I have always been a jeans and T shirt (a lot of times band shirt. That�s how W says she likes me best) or snug wranglers and a western pearl snap with cowboy hat. That�s about all I own lol. Well now I got a few extra things from the other day lol. I could use all the tips I could get.

Hey Oz, just something quick here about touching your W. I think it is difficult for a man to touch his woman without him thinking it might lead to sex. Therefore, my suggestion for you to have an idea of how to touch and where to draw the line before she gets skittish, is to think of how you would touch someone who is off limits for sex. As some of the guys have pointed out, there are ways to physically touch without it feeling intimate to her. Rubbing her back and shoulders is okay, as long as you don't get too close to her waist line. Taking her hand to guide through a crowd, a restaurant, etc., is usually fine. Trying to "hold hands" while sitting next to her may be too much right now, if she's not ready. Touching her face, hair, and back on her neck is seen as very personal and some women feel it is intimate.

I encourage you to stick with non-intimate physical touches.........like a small touch & go. In other words, you may touch her shoulder or pat her back but you quickly move on and don't act as if it was a big deal. You don't watch her to see how she responds. Just act as if it's all natural. If you rub her back, be sure you don't take advantage and slowly work your way to other areas. Try to think of yourself as a professional who is helping his patient.

IMHO, most women (there are some exceptions) need the relationship to be good/better, in order to desire sex with her H. My advice is to work on the non-sexual touches, and when she becomes comfortable with those type of touches.......then maybe you can start touching her face or hair. Here's the thing, Oz. You need to do it quickly and step away to find something else to do after you touch her face. That's what we call "touch and go". It's important that you act completely normal and that you aren't expecting her to react. Otherwise, she sees it as pressure, and if she's not ready for more intimate touching, she'll pull away.

Journal

I�m really wondering how long I can do this. It�s like being down in the trenches, slugging it out but not gaining. When she just undresses in front of me do I just act like I�m not attracted? That seems to send the wrong msg. Like I�ve lost interest. I feel like I should just ask are you in or out? If your in then let�s do this. If your not than I want to move on cause this middle ground , this almost relationship, is tearing me up. I have done GAL more than anybody I know when I was single. I went to Cali for 3 months by myself. Walked, saw, explored, backpacked, hiked. I went to Japan for a month by myself! Walked across the entire country with a Japanese buddy. Backpacked almost 20 miles a day. I�ve seen things none of my friends have. I just don�t enjoy being by myself anymore

Why do I feel so crummy? Ever since the concert and the really good time I�m just down. I don�t know what to do differently. I�m DBing well. If I go sit in front porch to have a drink she comes and sits beside me if I go to the back same. If I go take a shower she will sometimes come into bathroom so we can visit. If I go hang out in bedroom she will come in and lie down on bed so we can chat. She said she was thinking about going swimming at sisters house. Asked if I wanted to. I said no I have things to do. After a while I asked her if she was going she said no. She bases her plans around what I�m going to do.

H I�m going to the farmers market, you wanna go?
W sure go grab your coffee and I�ll get ready
(She calls when I�m at coffee shop)
W I don�t think we should go
H well I�m gonna go
W ok I�ll go too

Lol. I don�t get it if she doesn�t love me anymore and doesn�t want me. Why does she act like it? It�s not just being cordial. She enjoys being around me. I just don�t get it. Is she confused.

Is it weird I just want to rip the bandaid off. Sigh

Rant over.

Thanks

Just saw your post sandi. Thank you very much for that info. Like a lot. I�m not sure how much non intimate touching I should be doing right now either

Oz,

You need to be patient. My ex took two and a half years to file for d after original bomb drop. Your at two and a half months. Your number one problem is you have a good day and your expectations skyrocket. Then you realize nothing has changed and then you become down again.

You certainly can ask her if she is in or out. My guess is that if you force her to make a decision it will end badly for you. There's a high probability she's at least having an EA. Her giving that up is like asking a crack addict to give up crack.

Focus on yourself and your son and the rest will eventually take care of itself. Time to set those expectations at zero and detach and move forward.

Originally Posted by ozman

I�m not sure how much non intimate touching I should be doing right now either

When it is natural. She likes being touched, but not if it always leads to sex. She needs to "reprogram" her belief that all you want is sex if you start touching her.

Google - "smile with eyes"

LH. so since I�m not sure about an EA I just ignore it? Do they usually intensify and turn into a PA? I hope not. But I just ignore it? If it is there. And that�s still a fairly big if. When do I blow it up?

I�m workin on me. Hence the new thread name. I�m definitely a lot better than I was a month or so ago. But I have a long way to go

R2C. Thanks! It�s nice that things have improved enough between us that I�m asking questions about touching. Sigh. I glad we are getting along so well. We are like best friends right now.

I will google smiling eyes. Thank you

How do I learn her love language?

Oz,

You only ignore it if you�re not going to do anything about it. If you blow it up and she doesn�t stop will there be consequences? If so what are they?

What are your values? Are you ok sharing your W physically or emotionally with another man?

There are many red flags in your sitch and I think your gut is telling you something. You can�t re-attract her if she is giving herself emotionally or physically to another man.

What are the reasons for ignoring? If I don�t how do I approach her about it. I don�t have a way to prove. Everyone has said you have to have proof

Also if she was in an A would things be getting better between us?

You would ignore if you�re not going to do anything about it because it would make you look weak.

You would approach her and let her know that you won�t live in an open marriage and if she continues there will be consequences. If she continues you must implement the consequences. They must be strong. Separation/Divorce as an example.

If you want proof you can get proof. Phone records or a private investigator.

Better how? Because she�s nice to you? You took the pressure off so she�s nicer to you. Is there something else we don�t know about?

I would defiantly do something about it. There have been people in here say that I need to do a lot of DBing first though. To be AMOAFWL. And then lower the boom on an A. I can�t afford PI. there is no way to find out what�s on FB Messenger. Like Snapchat. Those apps are perfect for cheaters. On the other hand. Her sisters and her family use FB messenger all the time with her. So it may be them talking to her. The best I could do right now is accuse her or ask her.

Part of me feels like I haven�t given this near enough time either. Good thing is I dont feel emotional about it at all. I want her back. But I�m not going to play games

Can you look at her phone when she�s in the shower?

Personally, from what you have told us, I don't think you should snoop. I am a firm believer in gathering Intel, but only if you can handle what you find and take the correct action. I don't believe you are there yet.

Educate yourself first. Read this thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2039619&page=all

For now, just assume you are competing with a fantasy. Keep focused on your personal growth and traits that are attractive to all woman in general.

I can�t its password protected.

Ok R2C. I�ll read it. I wonder why I�m getting so anxious when things are steadily improving. I stick by what I said a long time ago. My sitch is just like Steve�s from DR. Slow steady improvements. I wonder why I�m getting impatient

Password protected. Another red flag.

So is mine. Ours always have been

I haven�t given it enough time have I feel like on the other hand. If she is in an A I�m ready for action. Problem is I don�t have a way to find out except asking her. Do my feelings make sense. I love her unbelievably. But Im worth more than this. I have screwed up. But I�m a good guy. I�m a really good guy. She knows it. She has told me so. I have just done a crappy job being a well adjusted man. But I�ve gained a lot in that territory.

Anyways I feel confident. I will be just fine whichever way this swings. I want it to swing my way of course. But if it doesn�t I�ll be golden. I�m a good man worth a good woman that is un negotiable. I don�t want to be with someone who doesn�t want me.

My question is..... do I need to prove this to her with better DBing and patience before I Pursue the potential A thing. Because the improvements between us are undeniable. She has been showing the slightest affections. Giving lots of compliments and such. The hugging back popping thing. The hand massage thing. I�m just trying to figure out if I�m being impatient. You guys know what I mean?

Yes if you have no proof just keep DBing and eventually if it�s happening it will rear it�s ugly head.

Originally Posted by ozman

Problem is I don�t have a way to find out except asking her.

Do not ask her. That is weak.

Quote

My question is..... do I need to prove this to her with better DBing and patience before I Pursue the potential A thing.

It is not about proving it to her. It is doing it for you.

Quote

She has been showing the slightest affections. Giving lots of compliments and such. The hugging back popping thing. The hand massage thing. I�m just trying to figure out if I�m being impatient. You guys know what I mean?

You are being impatient. You are also getting crumbs.

It is more than being patient, Read my tagline.

If the time comes, and this is extremely important:

Never reveal sources of Intel. Never reveal what you know. Only reveal that you DO KNOW.

Man thanks guys!! You are great!!

I have convinced myself I�m worth it. I�m a great guy. I�m funny and smart and I�m a catch. I�ve finally gotten there. It�s been hard but I believe this about myself now. I just want her to see it again like she used to. I�m just saying I want to prove those things to her. I also want her to see the kind of person she is. How good and beautiful and kind she can be. But I don�t think I can. I think she had to figure that out on her own. I think she just feels ugly and sad inside. I feel for her but I can�t fix it. I will stand here and wait for awhile. But not forever. The lighthouse story makes so much sense.

I wonder if this is what the rope drop feels like? Wow. It�s kind of exhilarating. Remember a month ago when the thought of her having an A was destroying me? Wow.

Thank God for you guys.

Ps. R2C. I did a bit more flirting to polish up my skills. What do you think of this?

Random cashier girl who was very pretty

We exchange hellos

I see a bandage on her finger

Me what happened to your hand?
Her oh I bite my nails and I�m trying to quit
Me well your way too pretty for that
Her (started and smile). Oh! Well thank you

Easy there cowboy lol.

So after the rope drop do you still get like second guessing feelings. Like your gut is still not sure of letting go

Oz,

I hate to tell you buddy but you haven�t dropped the rope. Pretty sure you still have a death grip on it. Takes a long time.

Well something is different. Cause I�m getting where I�m about done doing this song and dance with her

Look at the post before your last post.

Originally Posted by ozman

So after the rope drop do you still get like second guessing feelings. Like your gut is still not sure of letting go. Well something is different. Cause Im getting where Im about done doing this song and dance with her

From the outside, it sounds more like you want this situation to resolve a.s.a.p. one way or the other (impatience), and less like you're so focused on yourself you don't care what she does (dropping the rope).

Oz, regarding dropping the rope, answer this question:

If I looked out my window and my wife was having sex with a stranger on the lawn I would:

A) Collapse in tears
B) Wonder what happened to my happy life
C) Wring my hands in despair
D) Go outside to confront them
E) All of the above

Or would you:

F) Think to myself "wow that is weird" and go back to what I was doing

I view this more as detachment:

Quote

If I looked out my window and my wife was having sex with a stranger on the lawn I would:

A) Collapse in tears
B) Wonder what happened to my happy life
C) Wring my hands in despair
D) Go outside to confront them
E) All of the above

Or would you:

F) Think to myself "wow that is weird" and go back to what I was doing

I view Dropping the rope more about changing the emotional responses. Such as not arguing or controlling.

Quote

Of course, the reality is that both of us are actually causing the problem. Without realizing it, we are each encouraging the other to take the very stance we protest against.

AnotherStander CW R2C and Steve. This is where I�m at,

1 I�m a good man. I deserve a good woman
2 I cannot change her mind I fully understand this
3 I can�t fix her. �. �
4 when she gets crabby or in a bad mood. It does NOT phase me in the slightest.
5 I will be just fine without her (this does not mean I don�t want her)
6 we are getting along better than we have in years (laughing, talking, joking, a little flirting). We go out frequently. Take drives and such
7 we are in an almost relationship. Which I�m not interested in.
8 I need to work harder on GAL
9 she OBVIOUSLY enjoys spending time around me
10 I haven�t stuck to my 180s as well as I could have
11 6 months from now there will be a decision made. That is when looking for a new place to live will begin. We don�t like our current rental

I have become comfortable with me. I don�t need anybody�s approval. I�ve lived too long trying to gain approval from everybody

Oz,

How many times have you read DR?

I was reading 2/3 books a week. Look at this list. They are in a recommended reading order. Look where I rank NMMNG. There is one that says "Counter intuitive ways to attract" It is big. It is a must read:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2061094#Post2061094

Relax Oz, take your time and do nothing... just keep getting into amoafwl.

Stay strong there man!

Ok thanks guys. I�ll try to slow down a bit

Originally Posted by ozman

AnotherStander CW R2C and Steve. This is where I�m at

That all sounds great Oz. I think right now you might be fooling yourself a little bit, I don't think you are as "recovered" as you think you are. But that's OK, that's part of the healing process- convincing yourself you're done and then finding out a little later that you really weren't, and asking yourself why that is, and repeat. Eventually you really are done and moving on. Once you get to that point then that's often when recon pops up on the radar, but one thing at a time

Quote

This is where I�m at,

1 I�m a good man. I deserve a good woman
2 I cannot change her mind I fully understand this
3 I can�t fix her. �. �
4 when she gets crabby or in a bad mood. It does NOT phase me in the slightest.
5 I will be just fine without her (this does not mean I don�t want her)

Are you really there ^^^^^^^^^^^^^? Most of the above statements come from DB board language, which is fine unless you aren't "living" it. Are you trying to convince yourself you are the man you've described?

Quote

6 we are getting along better than we have in years (laughing, talking, joking, a little flirting). We go out frequently. Take drives and such

If you get along better than you have in years, then why are you trying to convince yourself that she is in some type of an affair?

Quote

7 we are in an almost relationship. Which I�m not interested in.

Again, this sounds like you are parroting from the board or a book.

Quote

8 I need to work harder on GAL. When will this change?
9 she OBVIOUSLY enjoys spending time around me. Soooooooooo?

10 I haven�t stuck to my 180s as well as I could have. What are your 180's?
11 6 months from now there will be a decision made. That is when looking for a new place to live will begin. We don�t like our current rental. You used the pronoun "we", so I assume you see yourself still together in 6 months? That's fine, I just don't know why it has anything to do with where you are in the MR, unless you are using that timeline to decide to live together or separately.

Quote

I have become comfortable with me. I don�t need anybody�s approval. I�ve lived too long trying to gain approval from everybody

Oz, I think focusing on building self-confidence as a man is important. You can be self-confident and save the MR, too. I get the feeling that you try to build your ego, but at the same time you think it comes at the price of your M, and that's not how it has to be. You don't have to put her down in order to build yourself upward. You don't have to find reasons to get a D in order to be AMOAFWL. I think you get easily distracted and can get rather obsessed about something. For instance, analyzing the touching. Now, you are getting obsessed about a possible affair.

.

Another stander I�m definitely more done than I was. But I think your right. I�m not as done as I think. As to your question of what I would do if I saw her having sex on the front lawn..... I would go outside. Look at her. Shake my head. Get in my truck go to a bar and order a tall lagunitas IPA. With salt. I would sit there and ponder and think. I would probably take my ring off.

R2C I�ve read it once. I�m reading the second book on your list now. About a third of the way through.

Sandi

Your first quote. I�m really mostly there. Not all the way. But what are other options that are more productive? My feelings in my chest don�t completly back it up. But they are getting there

2nd quote. We ARE getting along better than we have in years. We have become much better friends than we were. We talk easily and laugh a lot. It�s oretty easy to see she likes being around me. She is always following me around and asking what I want

To be continued

Ok. I want to finish the reply from yesterday. But I need ADVICE STAT. Her shoulder was hurting a lot last night. We went out with a couple friends. We got home and went to bed. She winced when she got in bed. I reached over and gave her a nice massage. I was waiting for the recoil. It didn�t happen. I finished. Rolled over to go to sleep. She said thank you and and sounded genuinely thankful.

This morning. We both wake up. It give her another massage. Am about to get up and she initiates. We had sex. I was VERY surprised.

I don�t know where to go from here

Don't read anything into it.

As R2C and Steve often say - when she is ready to come back you'll know, when she isn't you'll be confused. You are reacting too much IMO to her actions and words. Hopefully you enjoyed the sex but from here just keep doing what you are doing and work on yourself.

Originally Posted by ozman

Ok. I want to finish the reply from yesterday. But I need ADVICE STAT. Her shoulder was hurting a lot last night. We went out with a couple friends. We got home and went to bed. She winced when she got in bed. I reached over and gave her a nice massage. I was waiting for the recoil. It didn�t happen. I finished. Rolled over to go to sleep. She said thank you and and sounded genuinely thankful.

This morning. We both wake up. It give her another massage. Am about to get up and she initiates. We had sex. I was VERY surprised.

I don�t know where to go from here

Glad to hear.

What you are doing is working. Keep doing what works.

Hopefully you get another opportunity. If so, be different in bed. Not too different, but make it a pleasant surprise for her.

For example, if you always score the first touchdown, let her score two before you score.

Quote

I don�t know where to go from here

For now, don't behave as if you just assume anything has changed. On the other hand, don't swing too far the other way and act cold or silent. If the two of you can laugh and enjoy one another's company, then do what works. If she seems a bit withdrawn, give her some space. If she gets cozy with you, then respond likewise........if that's what you want.

Frankly Oz, I'm little confused and don't know what you really want. I can't tell if you are trying to say what you think we expect from you, or if you are trying to convince yourself that you want out of the M. Unless there is more than you've told, I can't figure out where you are trying to go. Do you want to stay M to your W?

Here's the thing, when you are just trying to play a role someone has suggested but you can't really capture the character in your own head, then you are going to struggle knowing what to do with the next move. So that's why I asked what do YOU want? Not what does your W want. Not what does the forum say. What does Oz want?

Ok thanks R2C.

Sandi.

I absolutely WANT to stay in my M. I love my W unbelievably but I have been working on letting go and accepting the fact that she may walk away. I�ve worked on being ready to be by myself. To be ready to handle an A. To be AMOAFWL. Please don�t misunderstand me. I would love nothing more than to recon. I�m just prepping for the worst. I was just curious if behave any differently now. Or if nothing changed. Can I initiate sex or intimacy now? Or just keep doing what I�m doing?

Originally Posted by ozman

Can I initiate sex or intimacy now?

Personally, I would let her initiate AT LEAST one more time. You focus on being attractive.

When I initiate with my woman, and get "turned down", I wait until she initiates. I focus on non-sexual touches, I build up the tension. I do things that turn her on. I help get her in "the mood".

Was there kissing involved? Did she "make out" with you?

There was no kissing. It�s still been 3 months since a kiss. The sex was not that great either. Hopefully just because it has been awhile. /-:

And after we ML. She went downstairs. I didn�t know if I should go down and hold her or act like nothing happened or what. So I went on my run. When I went downstairs with my headphones on she asked �are you going on a run?!?� Kinda surprised.

I said ya because I didn�t know what else to do. TB told me if she had sex with me not to turn into mr melty man

I got back and she was cooking breakfast which is a first in a long time

She was a bit standoffish yesterday. Not bad but there was a little bit. I don�t behave any differently at all? Touching massage etc.?

Wish all this came naturally

Quote

She was a bit standoffish yesterday.

I told you that could happen. IDK, but maybe it was a big step for her to initiate sex. In the past, would she initiate often? Did she have a healthy sex drive?

Quote

I don�t behave any differently at all? Touching massage etc.?

I think we are all trying to tell you to stay in the middle of the spectrum and don't go too far on either end. I suggest you mirror her actions the next couple of days. I am hesitate to tell you this, b/c I don't want you using her actions as a measuring technique for your own behavior. Anyway, if she touches you in a non-sexual or non-intimate way........then you follow likewise. If she complains with back pain, it's okay to ask her if she would like a massage, but don't start touching her in those intimate areas, if she has clearly not encouraged you. In other words, until you have a better idea of what she wants, you let her initiate or encourage you to engage in sex, cuddling, making out, whatever.

The recent sex was probably awkward b/c both of you were trying to get a read on each other's feelings. Maybe she was checking your emotional temperature, or maybe she was checking her own feelings.........IDK. She could have just been horny..........but I think you could tell, right? I still say when a woman gives her man those long, deep, wet, open mouth, tongue kisses.........that's a good sign! But don't get over focused on that right now. I'm just saying.

Stay calm and balanced. If your W has seen positive changes in you and she is trying to make a move to see if her feelings might change, then you respond positively to her. Just don't go ape over having sex one time. Don't get clingy and start hoovering over her and making her feel like she can't breathe. Remember her saying she just wanted you to leave her alone. That's a woman who feels suffocated. Too many demands on her and too much stress. I think she likes the changes you've made b/c you've not been breathing down her neck. She has a few moments alone. Therefore, your job is to stay balanced in your behavior around her, and stay balanced in your head.

I want to remind you again, Oz, I am giving you advice based on not seeing behavior that suggests she is wayward. However, I can only go by what you report in your posts. So I am going to ask again if she is showing respect for you while in the presence of your child, relatives, friends, and when together in public. I remember you said it had happened a while back when she was putting you down, but then you said it stopped. Has there been any other occurrences? If so, then please let me know.

I think she was horny and trying to figure out how she may feel. There was no kissing at all.

Ok calm and balanced. Got it. She was just complaining about her shoulder and I started rubbing it. Without asking.
And she liked it and one thing led to another. Yesterday afternoon I tried it and she gave no positive signs. Even recoiled slightly so I backed off in a hurry. But I didn�t get in a bad mood or nothing.

I don�t let her mood affect me. At all. I�ve got to that point and it feels nice. She seemed very conflicted after the ML yesterday. One minute flirting with me. The next a little put off. Back and forth most of the day. This morning it�s all good mood and being funny. I�m just letting it all roll off my back and not getting pulled in.

You can probably guess that after the ML yesterday morning I was very happy. I knew not to read into it and used my run to temper my feelings. I was unsure if I should have been more affectionate afterwards but I think I made the right choice.

She has shown no disrespect at all. In private or in front of company. She is nice and considerate and respectful of me
There is only the msging thing which who knows. I�m not concerning myself with it because I can�t do anything about it. I�m just working on me.

Yesterday was awkward as a whole. She brought up the past a couple times. She said something about how I didn�t take care of myself the last 10 years but acknowledged how I am now. I just listened and validated

I can tell you I�m ver glad we didn�t have sex a month ago. I wasn�t in a place where I could have not read into it and I would have went off the deep end.

She seems very cheery today. Flirty. It�s an amazing day outside. I think I will throw the frisbee with the dogs and S this afternoon maybe W wants to go

FYI. W is in constant pain. Back mostly. We have spent thousands in doctors and specialists. None can come up with concrete answer. So sex life has had lots of ups and downs. She usually initiated prolly 80% of the time

PS she has started complimenting me on my looks again. That feels nice. (Again not reading into it. I�m prepared for her to up and serve me papers tomorrow).

O......she might have been horny or she could be starting to get those positive vibes back again. Like Sandi said just stay balanced. Continue running, taking care of yourself and just because you had sex don�t go into a full court press being touchy feely or talking about your R or being needy. It sounds like what you are doing is working so continue doing more of the same.

Hi Oz, I hope it's a move forward. Hard to say! In my situation, having sex again w/o kissing felt awkward, but ultimately was on the path to having sex again w/ kissing.

Originally Posted by ozman

PS she has started complimenting me on my looks again. That feels nice. (Again not reading into it. I�m prepared for her to up and serve me papers tomorrow).

Nice one mate.! I couldn't believe I stooped so low at the time but the other day I saw at Woolies one of those bargain bins and picked up some Nivea refresher face gel for men for $5. I've used it a few times and it actually made me look better! I've never bought anything like this but I thought why not!

Can I ask what's wrong with your wife's back? I've had back issues myself.

It sounds like things are going well for you. Keep your chin up Oz.

Originally Posted by sandi2

Quote

I don�t know where to go from here

Here's the thing,

Hi Sandi,

May I invite you to review and evaluate my XW in my sitch, subject to your time, interest, commitments etc? I've read a lot of your posts here and would value any insight you could offer. I apologise if my request is out of line or offends any rules here.

Oz, my apologies for hijacking.

Thank you

Lol. No prob DS. I did the same thing for sandis opinion of my W a while back. It�s all good. My wife fell 30 ft out of a tree when she was 11 years old. Her body has hurt since then. She recently had a day with no pain. She almost cried because she said she couldn�t remember what not hurting felt like

Hindsight being 20/20. She was definitely mixed between standoffish and flirting after we ML. very flirty unless I touched too much. Then she would get annoyed. I would quickly back off. She would approach again. Soooo yesterday I kept to myself more and she warmed up to me again. I was piddling around the house getting stuff done and she said

W I need to go run some errands and get some stuff done
H ok have a good time
W ok do we need anything?
H I can�t hmthink of it right now
W ok well I�m leaving
H ok see ya. Enjoy yourself
W ok bye
(She leaves. Comes back in 45 seconds)
W uhm. Do you wanna come with me?
H sure why not.

We go run errands. Decide to stop for an ice cream. It was nice

It�s amazing how this stuff works

New thread

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2863069&#Post2863069