Hoosjim's back... and maybe his WW, too (?)

[hoosjim]

Hey Y'all. Been a while.

Sorry and sad to report this, but I have a... situation. Maybe something, maybe... well, not maybe nothing. It's definitely something. The question is, how serious a something is it, how seriously do I need to take it, and how aggressively do i need to respond to it?

This most definitely involves the WW syndrome and recovery from and potential relapsing to that state by a wife. I need input on this from the WW experts, particularly the invaluable insights of Sandi2 and artista if they are still out there. If either of y'all are listening, or for anyone else who has picked up that baton, let me know and i will explain in greater detail.

My previous story and timeline left off at the following thread (16 of 16) for any who want to catch up...

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2827456&page=1

[hoosjim]

In a nutshell, my W, while I was at fraternity reunion out of town for the night last weekend, met up with her very wayward BFF and a couple of other girls... with my knowledge. They had dinner and drinks... also that i knew about.

Trouble started when I tried calling her once i hit my out of town destination. Straight to VM... which meant either she was on another call, the phone was off, or the phone was out of signal range of any tower (the latter extremely unlikely dead smack in the middle of a major metro area). I called back several times over the next 30-45 minutes, but her phone still went straight to VM. This would not have troubled me hardly at all... except for the fact that she was out with her BFF (who now lives in Florida but this weekend was visiting in our neck of the woods) and my WW being "off the grid" and unreachable whilst out with her BFF had been one of the disturbing hallmarks of the depths of her former WW lifestyle and her affair she carried on for several months. This raised some uncomfortable memories for me... but still no alarms. Yet.

For grins, because I was curious where she was, i ran her phone through the family tracker we all have in my family and have for past two years. NADA. Phone is completely unreachable/unfindable. I hadn't done this in over a year.. almost wish i hadn't

My phone runs out of juice while i am out with my friends, and is down for approximately an hour. When i return to hotel and plug it in, i get a series of backed up phone messages from her. Numerous: "Where are you... I miss you.. thinking of you" etc etc. Not unusual for us to send these types of texts these days... but this was a LOT of them. I send her a short text asking where she'd been...was her phone was off(?) and i get a really long text back how she missed me making it a point to tell me how she'd been telling her three friends how much she missed me, how good and helpful our marriage counseling had been, how it was now better than the honeymoon.... all of which raised alarm bells with me. It was the kind of thing she would do before in the bad old days when she knew she'd done something wrong and was trying to compensate. She followed it up with a racy picture of herself.

I am fairly curt by text this entire time... to me, her being out with bff and being unreachable is disrespectful of our history and situation, at a minimum. She continues with the frequent obsequious texts through the following morning... we have a date scheduled the following evening, but i am evasive about my plans and my return-- my own bff (her bff's ex) is having a tough time and wants to get together for dinner, so i indicate i may do so and start our date a little later than planned). When I do return, she is very touch, lovey, etc., very affectionate, and our date goes very well... as our dates have been going for months on end... during which time i have seen nothing to raise red flags, seen no signs of disrespect from her, nothing but affection and "how thankful and lucky she is, etc. etc." I ask her about her evening and she just reiterates they went out for dinner and drinks at a well known spot at a local mall, they talked alot and caught up on things. She apologizes somewhat circuitously about being "out of touch".. says she wasn't sure why her phone didn't ring since "it was definitely on", though never says anything about how that might have made me feel under the circumstances... And i decide to let it slide... don't even tell her it brought up spectres of the past and her wayward days with her bff and AP (who themselves were friends).

Flash forward to tonight. Working on back to school stuff with my son, and he says "Hey Dad, wanna see something that will really creep you out"? "Okay, I say"... and he proceeds to show me the location history on the google account on his phone that has tracked his every move for the past two years he's had the phone. "Yikes!" I feign horror, though i already knew of this feature. At any rate, after he leaves a few minutes later, i am staring at my own gmail screen, and i notice that my wife's email is still there in the drop down, logged on. On a whim, I open her account and look at her location history... which she never bothered to turn off. Long story short, that night i was out of town, after dinner with her GFs, she went to the bar that had been the chief hangout of her AP and one of the main locations where they had had meet ups... which her bff had been instrumental in orchestrating and concealing. Now, the AP/OM has moved several states away... I know this for a fact and I have kept periodic tabs on the predatory SOB-- he's still there. Not that i dont think he could have come back here for a day or two (he still has family and friends locally), but his current residence is about 700 miles away... and rumor is he had a falling out with that particular bar owner anyway. Also, wouldn't surprise me if her bff and one of the other GFs wanted to go there for whatever reason as it is or was one of their neighborhood hangouts. So, plenty of reason the visit could have been innocent... IF MY WIFE HAD JUST TOLD ME... WHICH SHE DIDNT (and the way she described the evening intentionally excluded it any mention of it, and i made sure to ask in roundabout fashion at least three or four times when we were talking about it last week.) FWIW, if she HAD told me she wanted to go there, I would not have objected ... that's how good things have been between us.(I have even brought up the two of us going there sometime, as i had very much enjoyed the food and atmosphere at that place before she and my friend... the OM... stabbed me in the back)

Also, the google location records indicate she was there at that building with the OM's old bar, which is also an apartment building, from 11 PM until 10 AM the next morning... but there are ambiguities (primarily that it doesn't show her return to our house, but just places her there at home the following day... so she really could have returned at any time-- the exact time being unclear but from the timing of her texts and such she had to have been there at least an hour.

It surprises me how calm i am about this. Disappointed, even pissed off, yes... but... i am even picturing her having an overnight liaison with OM... and I am fine. We'd be done, of course, but I am amazingly in control of my emotions here. What particularly troubles me is not that I think she actually had some sort of meet up-- I think it much more likely that bff and others and maybe even her wanted to go... and maybe she even just gave them a ride over, IDK... but that she didn't want to tell me for whatever reason. And i find that very, very,, very troubling from the standpoint of respect, and empathy, and of her being a recovering WW. The way she smooched up to me after she had been out of touch that evening was the first time i have had any warning bells go off in over a year since we had our BIg Moment Reset and I walked awayfor a week and a half.. and i should have listened to the warning bells. Oh well...

So i need to address this. very aggressively, I think. Calmly, but aggressively. PArticulalry seeking input from Sandi2 and artista, here...

[Family Man]

Easy to see the alarm bells here and good to see that you have considered the innocent options. If you assume the worst you know it could do serious damage to your recovery. Calm is good, aggressive sounds dangerous. Conscientiously might be a better mindset. Hope this helps.

[SteveLW]

Hj, good to hear from you despite the circumstances.

Sandi is still here. Haven't seen a post from Arista in a while. My initial thought is to have you go back and read that. Objectively. Pretend like you are someone else reading HJ's post. Tell me if you get the same impression as me: HJ's gut is telling him one thing, but his mind is trying to "rationalize" it away.

The thing that stood out to me was the "if she had said she wanted to go there I would not have objected". Then why did she hide it?

I'll defer to Sandi in this one. I'm not sure you need to take any action. The deception is troubling considering the past, but likely it was just her having a "single ladies" night out with the horrible influence of the BFF. Thank goodness her visits are few and far between.

[sandi2]

Heeeeey! I was just thinking about you and your W yesterday, and wishing we could hear from you. I didn't want any troubling news, but I'm really glad you decided to come talk about this update before allowing it to fester.

I'm really wanting to give your W the benefit of doubt on this one. We know her BFF is rotten and the worst influence for your W. I think she went alone with whatever the group wanted, and she knew you would probably have lots of questions if you knew they went to the old hangout. Do I think BFF chose that bar on purpose? I don't put it past her one bit.

I want to believe your W started feeling a bit uncomfortable for going there, and she started sending the texts.

When i return to hotel and plug it in, i get a series of backed up phone messages from her. Numerous: "Where are you... I miss you.. thinking of you" etc etc. Not unusual for us to send these types of texts these days... but this was a LOT of them.

Did the time on her text messages match the time your phone was down, or during the period you couldn't reach her? .

I send her a short text asking where she'd been...was her phone was off(?) and i get a really long text back how she missed me making it a point to tell me how she'd been telling her three friends how much she missed me, how good and helpful our marriage counseling had been, how it was now better than the honeymoon.... all of which raised alarm bells with me. It was the kind of thing she would do before in the bad old days when she knew she'd done something wrong and was trying to compensate. She followed it up with a racy picture of herself.

You ask one question and she never addresses it? Yes, I have to say it looks as if she was trying to avoid it. Perhaps she thought what you didn't know--wouldn't hurt you..........knowing how you feel about BFF arranging for her to meet OM at the bar in the past (or maybe it was another bar). Anyway, being a recovering WW, it was not wise to avoid your direct question. She should know by now that you will immediately pick up on how she skirts around it.

I could even see BFF arranging to "surprise" your W, by having OM at the bar (if he just happen to be in town)........and BFF thinking it would be funny. Twisted, but funny. However, your W didn't have to stay, since she had her own car and could leave any time. We could imagine all sorts of scenarios, but that doesn't help.

It does seem a bit overkill.......as if she wants to distract you from asking her more questions. What about the sexy photo? Did that surprise you, or is that the norm these past months?

I ask her about her evening and she just reiterates they went out for dinner and drinks at a well known spot at a local mall, they talked alot and caught up on things.

You were hoping she would tell you they went to the old hangout, without you asking. I could see her wanting to avoid all of it, but I don't understand the deal with her phone........unless she didn't want you picking up on the background noise.

My suggestion is to ask her to give you a direct answer on which bar they went to that night. The longer you hold on to this, the more it will eat at you.

How long has it been since last session with MC?

[AnotherStander]

It just doesn't add up and I think you are right to be suspicious. My suggestion would be to tell her you think her behavior is odd, explain to her why you think it's odd, and ask her if something happened that she is trying to hide. I would also confront her about the tracking info that shows she went somewhere she didn't tell you about. Put all the cards on the table and give her a chance to explain. Set a boundary- no more turning the phone off, period. Don't let her lie her way out, hold her accountable.

[hoosjim]

I'm really wanting to give your W the benefit of doubt on this one. We know her BFF is rotten and the worst influence for your W. I think she went alone with whatever the group wanted, and she knew you would probably have lots of questions if you knew they went to the old hangout.

Hey Sandi! Thanks so much for stopping by my thread! I still stop by myself from time to time and try to throw out the odd nugget by way of "paying it forward", but somehow I never feel quite right about it. Despite my W and i sharing literally everything now (or at least so i had thought), for a number of reasons i feel that this place and the experiences I had here are something I shouldn't necessarily share... and keeping that hidden runs counter to everything I thought (and that our counselor has continually taught us) a healthy marriage should be about. So, much as I like y'all and much as I'd like to help more... I just feel funny about it. I still am trying to find a way to get more engaged out here in the non-cyber world, hopefully through the church helping couples in troubled marriages.

At any rate, yes, part of me wants to give her the benefit of the doubt, here, too... Things have literally been great for us, better than they have ever been-- we are extremely affectionate, we laugh and joke and flirt constantly and talk frankly about everything, have frequent dates, and are always making plans for the future, never fight and she never shows me any disrespect-- and I have had no alarm bells or anything until now. But at the same time... I can't think of anything she could have done short of contacting OM or engaging in another affair that would have shaken my trust in her as seriously as this episode has.She KNOWS the relationship/dynamic with her and bff going out is an unpleasant one for me. Just in May we had a lengthy conversation about it as she was preparing to go visit bff for a weekend. She asked why I hadnt been very talkative and had been quiet whenever she brought up the trip. I told her, truthfully, that I had no reason not to trust her now, that i had faith in our relationship and didn't think she was going to stray while with bff but, at the same time, that there was still relatively recent history there and that, for me, her being together and going out with bff, and especially having a girls weekend with bff, raised those painful memories back up with me. Her response to that was "Well then i shouldn't go, how can I go after you told me that?" And my response to her at that point was: "This is a relationship you want to maintain, and even though I don't trust her, I trust you... The bad memories I have of that time and the associated pain are something that is going to take time to heal, and is just going to be part the continual healing of our own relationship... but there's nothing you are doing "wrong" or that would make me distrust you at this point that is causing those feelings to be there. Its just going to take time. Go, and have fun." So she went... but she is or should still be very aware of my feelings on the subject. FWIW, she also saw bff the weekend prior to this current incident (bff is in town for a couple of weeks to visit family and to hand off her kids to her ex, my own bff) and she kept in constant touch by text and told me everywhere she went. (And, after I found out what i found out last night i went back and checked her location the previous weekend, and for the visit to florida in May, and everything was just as she said.) So she knows this relationship and that dynamic still raise painful memories for me, and in similar situations the past few months she has gone out of her way to let me know where she is and what she's doing (and, yes, to flirt and such)... Until now.. and then she goes overboard for what is normal for us now, which was always a sign in the past that she'd messed up.

So, yeah... why not tell me now (and, as i have said, she and i have openly discussed going back to that bar together, and she has to know it is a strong possibility that we will do so in the future and also that i don't have any particular hesitation or hang up about the bar in a vacuum)? The fact that she was acting like she did and that she hasn't told me tells me she knows she did something she shouldn't have... I just... argh! We have had it hammered into us over and over and over how important openness and honesty and trust is, and she KNOWS that this (bff/OM/that whole dynamic) is the biggest potential trust issue that we still have!

Did the time on her text messages match the time your phone was down, or during the period you couldn't reach her?

Here's the timeline:

5:30 pm-- she leaves work
5:35pm-- she texts me (I am driving)
5:37-5:42--several texts exchanged with bff
5:55 pm -- arrrives at restaurant at mall (google location shows her at mall until 10:25)
6:44-6:49-- I send her two texts, responding to her and telling her i've arrived and telling her I'd call in a sec after checking in (didn't know she was going out straight from work, though i admittedly hadn't asked).
6:50-- I call her and phone goes straight to VM
6:51-- I text her again, letting her know i tried to call but she was going straight to VM
6:55--Up in room, i start thinking and run a family tracker... but her phone is not locatable.
8:00-- I call again but straight to VM
10:25--Google shows her leaving Mall
10:26--T Mobile phone log shows her receiving my texts at this time (so her phone WAS off or out of signal range), as well as a picture text from bff and two picture texts from one of the other girls
10:26-- log shows her sending first of several texts to me, though i do not receive it immediately.
10:25-10:42, -- she drives to a strip mall nearby and stops for 15 minutes, during which time she makes a three minute call to our son
10:57-- she drives to OM's old bar, arriving at approx 11:15
[GOOGLE LOCATION SHOWS HER AT THAT LOCATION AND THEN NEXT THING SHE IS HOME AT 10:17 NEXT MORNING, BUT NOTHING IN BETWEEN]
Approx 11:00-- my phone dies-- not sure exactly when as i stopped looking at it
11:13-11:17-- sends me a series of "Whatcha doing, I miss you" texts
11:50-- she sends me two more texts"where are you, I miss you type things"
12:45-- Two more texts to me
12:50-- I plug my phone into friends car lighter and get a little power but nothing downloads before i have to unplug
1:35-1:40 four more texts to me (Note that i don't know for sure what order the texts were sent in, but they clearly arrived in my inbox out of time order.
1:46-- I get to hotel and plug in and receive all the above texts from her. I reply "What happened to you?"
1:48-- Her: "Nothing, i texted you and got no response"
1:52-- Me to her: "Your phone was off"
BIG GAP
5:51 AM-- Text to me: "So weird my phone never rang and ringer is turned up, did you get all my texts"
5:53 AM-- Text to her friend with whom she used to work (the girl moved out of state two months ago) and in whom she had previously confided when I walked out on her last year and she was desperate for help
9:27 AM-- Me in response-- "You must have been in no signal zone then, where'd ya go?
10:08AM-- Her to me "Met the girls at _________ (bar at mall) after work. Really missed talking to and hugging you. Almost called a couple times but didn't want to be that girl who calls during guy time. [Lotta other chitter chatter, very long text, including the stuff about talking to the other girls about how good our marriage is now and how good therapy was and its better than ever etc etc etc.]"

That's pretty much it. She sent my numerous flirty bitmojis and texts after that, and talking about our upcoming date, but i was fairly curt in reply. She was super dolled up when i got back, very affectionate.

It does seem a bit overkill.......as if she wants to distract you from asking her more questions. What about the sexy photo? Did that surprise you, or is that the norm these past months?

Like I said, things have been very affectionate and flirty between us. We banter and cuddle and hold hands alot, even in front of the kids (which elicits groans and eye-rolls). That said, things have been a bit cooler the past couple of months, at least sexually: I injured my shoulder playing basketball and she had to go off of her BC pills because they were interacting with one of her other meds and making her sick, so we haven't been able to be quite as spontaneous (she even had a brief pregnancy "scare")... but we have still been as affectionate with each other. I would say the texting and constant day to day contact and banter has tailed off SOMEWHAT from the honeymoon-period peak... enough so that I noticed the significant ramp up after this past weekend's incident. I let her initiate the text exchanges on probably close to a 2-1 ratio, though i am still attentive and irascable and flirty and suggestive with her-- pursuit and distance, lol.

You ask one question and she never addresses it? Yes, I have to say it looks as if she was trying to avoid it. Perhaps she thought what you didn't know--wouldn't hurt you..........knowing how you feel about BFF arranging for her to meet OM at the bar in the past (or maybe it was another bar). Anyway, being a recovering WW, it was not wise to avoid your direct question. She should know by now that you will immediately pick up on how she skirts around it.

Yeah, she should have known. And she should know better. Sandi, isn't there a real risk here of her "getting a thrill" out of being sneaky and bad with bff again and rekindling the wayward mindset? She has always been a bit of stubborn, rebellious sort to begin with, even as that is at odds with her "good girl" Catholic upbringing. I really feel like she needs a good sharp rap on the knuckles with a ruler or something, here, to remind her...

My suggestion is to ask her to give you a direct answer on which bar they went to that night. The longer you hold on to this, the more it will eat at you.

How long has it been since last session with MC?

My inclination is to approach it one of two ways: 1) "Listen, W, is there anything else you want to tell me about the girls night out last Saturday night, where yall went and what you did?" or 2) (More direct) "When were you planning on tell me y'all went to Patriot's Saturday night?" I can see merit to either approach. 1 seems more passive aggressive and less assertive, while 2 seems possible to put her on the defensive. Then again, I DID say i think she needs a rap across the knuckles (or on the rump, lol). But, yeah... it is significant to me, and i don't think i can just let it slide-- it's important to me and I don't want it to fester AND i honestly worry a bit about a WW relapse, particularly with some of the things artista related a while back.

As to MC, we haven't had a full blown session in probably 9-10 , months, though we are a member of the MCs private FB group, where she does live podcasts and Q&As and we read her blog posts regularly. MC has actually checked in with us three or four times now asking how we are doing and if we wanted to come in. I have brought it up with W twice in the wake of these outreaches and W has demurred, most recently in June, saying "What is there to discuss? Are there any problems?"... and I really had to agree... things were great. I couldn't think of any marital issues we would discuss with MC. Like i said i still have lingering resentment towards bff and anytime they go out-- not a regular occurrence with bff in florida-- it still evokes painful memories in me but, other than that, OUR relationship is and has been great, and, until this Iweekend, I had nearly 100% trust in her. We are going to the beach in September for our anniversary, which is also where MC has her practice, and i had thought to suggest we take her to lunch or something just to say hi and say "thanks", but we have no sessions on the horizon. Maybe this would be reason to schedule one?

Thanks again Sandi! Glad you are still around!

[hoosjim]

Also, Sandi, fwiw, the racy photo she sent me late night that night was NOT a current one of her that evening... it was a stock one she had on her phone she had taken previously and that she keeps in a photo album titled "for hoosjim"... so that pic is not evidence of her "being at home" at the time...

[hoosjim]

Sandi, please see my above (and probably over-long) response/post on this as well.

I feel the need to reiterate, here, that this is a really big issue for me, and the more and more i think about this, the more it disgusts me. I'm sure she's going to think/say that it's no big deal, that she didn't do anything, etc etc etc. But...Really? I mean... really? My trust in her-- so hard to rebuild and over so many months-- has now again been significantly damaged... significantly... and I see this as a meaningful setback.

Not sure what she could possibly say that is going to justify this or make me feel differently, and I am an analytical guy who can likely come up with more scenarios/possibilities than the regular Joe (as those who have noted my tendency to rationalize and defend her actions in the past would attest to.)

Not sure I should talk to her about this tonight, because I am likely to be less level headed than i should be... but going to have to soon as we have our annual family vacation coming up starting Wed night... (and why the hell does she always seem to pull this crap right before some sort of family event/vacay/function.

Ah, well... All y'all's further thoughts on this and what i initially responded to Sandi with are, as always, warmly appreciated.

Here's hoping I remain one of the forum's happy endings...

[AnotherStander]

Jim, did you see my response? I think maybe you missed it after Sandi's. I wouldn't let this fester. It clearly bugs the crap out of you and that is reason enough for you to confront her about it.

[hoosjim]

Jim, did you see my response? I think maybe you missed it after Sandi's. I wouldn't let this fester. It clearly bugs the crap out of you and that is reason enough for you to confront her about it.

Actually, i had missed it, thanks.

I wasn't ready to confront her about this yet. Still might not be. Point I'm at now the more i think about it the madder i get and i need to cool off a bit... I want to be cool and fully in control of my emotions when i do this, and right now there's a good chance i won't be.

The fact she did this shows that either a) I can't trust her because she still has a wayward mindset and/or is just plain willing to lie to me or do things she knows are contrary to the best interests of our MR or b) that she herself doesn't trust the MR or isn't "all-in" on it enough to put it FIRST and come to me to discuss these types of situations (and like I said, at the place we were, had she just told me she was going, Id've simply said "cool... bring me back some wings to warm up tomorrow when i get home."

It could also be evidence that she is/was up to something worse, though i think that is the least likely possibility (though certainly not IM-possible given the dynamic.

This is just really frikking disturbing. That bar is a local bar with a local/regular clientelle. We have run into regulars from that place when we were out (or, rather, SHE has with me and said "Oh, I saw so-and-so from the bar... they're here to support their entrant in the karaoke contest... Come to think of it she talked to that acquaintance while i was at the bathroom and never made a move to go over with me and introduce.) See, the thing is, after I stopped going there, she was there FREQUENTLY with OM and her bff... and it is a small bar with a regular clientelle. They KNEW she was the wife of a former friend of OM's (me), and i was friendly with a few people at that bar as well. I just didn't feel like i wanted to go back ever again knowing that a number of people there knew that D-head OM was stealing my W. For her to go back there, now, without me, just seems really weird. The thought of her hanging out there, SECRETLY, and partying and having a good time just really, really burns me. Can't imagine the low regard she must actually have for our relationship to have done that.

She knows something's up, BTW. Has asked me several times, now "what's the matter", to which I've said "look, I've got some things on my mind and I just need some space right now." She even came BACK from work this morning, claiming she took the wrong car-- one the kids needed-- by mistake, and could I "drive her to work instead of taking the Metro". (she's really sharp this way and would never do that inadvertently, especially for something concerning the kids) Whatever, i was pretty quiet in the car despite numerous "whatcha thinkin' bout"s. She's made several physical advances which i have rebuffed. I keep thinking maybe she'll fess up on her own, which to me would be significant, but don't think it's gonna happen. Starting to calm down a little, so perhaps I'll bring it up tonight. Otherwise It'll probably have to wait until after family vacay this weekend.

[hoosjim]

Another, even more simplified take:

She was either a) up to something so bad she doesn't want me to know about it OR b) not up to something, but is so callous she doesn't care about the pain and doubt and relational damage it would inflict on me/us if/when i found out she went there secretly... and i have always found out (she's the world's most inept liar/secret-keeper)

And I just received my third flirty text of the morning. Just unbelievable.

[sandi2]

Sandi, isn't there a real risk here of her "getting a thrill" out of being sneaky and bad with bff again and rekindling the wayward mindset? She has always been a bit of stubborn, rebellious sort to begin with, even as that is at odds with her "good girl" Catholic upbringing. I really feel like she needs a good sharp rap on the knuckles with a ruler or something, here, to remind her...

Okay, let's start with the Bible. It tells of Adam's fall in the garden of Eden, and one of the consequences was that Adam's descendants would inherit his same old sin nature. So, when we were physically born, we got a little something from Adam. Salvation is a spiritual birth. It gives eternal life and a new nature. However, salvation didn't do away with the our old sin nature we inherited. Therefore, we struggle with two natures.

I told you quite some time ago that I felt your W's true issue was a spiritual one. If she has been saved, and if she still holds some thread of rebellion in her Catholic "good girl" upbringing, I think she struggles with those two natures. I also think she loves you, and wants to be M to you, but when she gets around those "friends" and that environment, it beacons the bad girl to come out and play.

Every person has an area of strength, and an area of weakness. The smart thing, IMHO, is to recognize your weakness and work to get stronger, which usually start by avoiding the avenues that tempt the weakness. As an observer, this desire to be a "bad girl" sometimes, is her weak area. I think you would agree that her BFF is not a good influence on your W. She encourages her bad side to come out and play. So, as long as she continues to hang around friends that live a wayward type lifestyle, I believe she will be tempted...........b/c she doesn't seem to be strong enough.......or she simply doesn't want to tell them she is not going back to that bar, and she's not going to do whatever it is they do after they start drinking.

A new person on the board could read all your threads, and I think they would see a local place that seem to be a hot bed of temptation. I'm talking about your favorite bar. Now, you have defended it to the sky and back, but the way I see it, neither of you should be going there. As I recall, you stopped posting when the subject turned on you a female bartender that worked in this particular bar. And this was right after reconciling with your W! You thought it was kind of funny and brushed it off, and that's when you stopped posting.

So now, your W is still going to that same bar? Like, she goes there alone? I know you wrote extensively about how that was your favorite hangout, etc., etc. It just seems linked to several things that has happened during the past, and maybe currently.

As a recovering WW, I believe she has to put her big girls panties on and establish very clear boundaries for how she will conduct herself as a lady, a married woman, and a Christian. A recovering WW (who had some type of an A, or engaged in GGW stuff) is like anyone else who deals with a particular addiction. You can't go back into that old environment, engage in those activities. etc. You have to stay away, and work on getting stronger and affair proofing your MR as best that you can. And in her case, I'd start by staying away from those old haunts.......and those old friends who want to pull her back into that situation.


If she sees nothing wrong with what they do on a girl's night out, and has no intentions of finding a better group of ladies for friends, and/or if she doesn't have the strength to tell her current BFF and friends that she isn't going to that particular bar, or go bar hopping all night.........then I think there will always be a degree of risk involved. What's with these gals who want to hang out at bars? Anyway, the combination of the BFF influence and something about that bar plays on the weak area of your W. I can't give all the blame to the BFF. During the time when your W was staying for the wine down after work, she again, seemed to see nothing wrong with it. If it had continued, I think she was on her way of allowing things to really get out of hand. (Of course, this was before you reconciled). So, she has to stop taking part in these types of settings. I think we've talk before about how she sees no red flags or lives by certain boundary lines........and this gets her into trouble. This is a woman with two grown boys, so by now, she should be able to see the need to set boundaries for herself.


If you feel everything has been great, and suddenly the old girl friends shows up and they go to the old hangout........problems arise. To me, it seems clear where the problem lies, and it doesn't have anything to do with you, in her way of thinking. It's as if she just wants these few hours to be free and do whatever she feels like doing. I actually feel she is heavily influenced to go along with the group and don't be a party- pooper. They might even tease her about texting you every few minutes. Maybe they pressured her into turning off her phone.........who knows. It all comes down to her not standing up against it and saying I'm not going to partake in it.

So, let me ask if you and your W have been attending Church regularly? Is she getting good food for her soul? This may sound preachy, but she needs to be around sources of good influence. Make friends with people who don't go to bars to hang out. IMHO, your W needs to stay away from the bar environment. She has no business going there by herself. I think the people she chooses to hang out after work, go spend weekends, and overnight things, have to stop b/c it feeds that weakness and desire to be a bad girl. She (and you) may defend her actions, but she knows it's wrong......and that's why it appeals to her.

It's like the story of feeding the two wolves. The two wolves, being the two natures we have. The one that is fed the most, will become the stronger. The fact that the two of you have had a great honeymoon period is wonderful and your story should be inspiring for others who need some hope. However, the story doesn't end as long you continue living. I don't know what happened that night her phone was off, but she seems as though she feels guilty about something. I don't think you should continue to wait before asking her about it. Your mind will create much worse crimes than probably really happened. I'm not good with words, but Another Stander is excellent in how to address something this sensitive.

I keep repeating myself, but I really do think she needs to make a decision to conduct herself like a married woman, and a Christian lady (if she claims to be Christian) and stop going out and engaging in activities that cause suspicion, and bring up bad memories, etc. The more she continues feeding that wolf, it will get stronger and do damage to the MR.

My suggestion is to call your MC and get her advice, or go ahead and approach your W. I know how you roll things around in your head, and you have been a little cool.......so she knows something is up. Next thing, she will start being cool back to you, and things will start going downhill. So, get the thorn out now! Don't end up sleeping in separate beds again. (((hugs)))

[hoosjim]

So. back from vacation. W and i did discuss this issue, though not sure it is completely resolved.

When I went to pick her up from work on thursday, she is sitting on bench outside work, stifling tears. She gets in car and i can see she has been crying. I ask her what's up. She says, through tears "I've been crying on and off all day, trying to figure out for the past three days why you are shutting me out right now, and..." (And i have been, I've been curt, somewhat cold, not as responsive as usual, etc.) So, although i still had not intended on talking about it at that point, I interrupt and ask her "You can't think of any reason why?" Her answer: "Well, all I can think of is that bff and gf and I went to ____________ (OM's old bar where they used to hang out, and where i hung out from time to time with OM before the A started) for just an hour last weekend after dinner, but I didn't think it was a problem, i thought we were past that, and then i was going to tell you and then things with the kids got crazy [they did] and i didnt want to drop that on you in the middle of that..."(etc etc etc.). To which I respond: "I asked you twice what happened to you and where you went and you STILL didn't think to tell me you had gone there?" To which she kind of hems and haws about "didn't think i had asked her where she had gone" (which, after reviewing my texts, is TECHNICALLY true as i had just noted her phone being off and asked "what happened" to her. Whatever. We also discussed her being out with bff as historically being a cover for bad behavior and OM (or at least that bad behavior tended to arise around bff, and i specifically say (without yelling) "I am getting really really ***king tired of the common denominator when all these incidents happen being your bff... really getting tired of her involvement." Also that that scenario is one that is STILL one that raised painful memories for me (she said she didn't know that, thought we were past it) and that "level 2" of that dynamic is when she is out with bff and unreachable... as she was on this occasion and of which she would have been reminded when her phone came back on or came back in signal range (she claims it was on the whole time.) Level 3 (or DEFCON 1) of that dynamic would be the two foregoing factors AND she is secretly at the OM's old hangout/bar. She repeated again that she was going to tell me but just couldn't find the right time, and I asked her how she thought i felt, not knowing she had gone there and, under the circumstances (out with bff, unreachable) discovered ON MY OWN that she had gone there without telling me. She responded, through tears, "very hurt, horrible... I'm sorry.. I didn't think it would be a problem." She kept coming back to "There was nobody there, you know he lives far far away now, and nothing happened there" to which my response was "Your misunderstanding the bigger problem, which is that you should have told me. If you had told me ahead of time I would have said 'great, have fun, bring me back some wings to warm up tomorrow", but by not telling me and going there in secret you really damaged the trust i have for... it's changed the way i feel about you right now." To which her response was "I don't really think you would have been "okay" with it ahead of time".

So here is my problem with all that: either she knew it would be a problem for me ("I knew, no, wait, i FELT you might be troubled by me going there") and went anyway in secret, OR she didn't bother to think about how it might affect me which means she is being pretty carefree/callous about protecting the MR. If she knew it was problem or even might be problem for me she a) shouldn't have gone or at least b) should've talked to me first. Seems like she is trying to have it both ways. She "didn't think it would be a problem" but then "thought about telling me but didn't want to tell me during a bad time with the kids." She was also crafting her words carefully, trying to backtrack from "knowing" I'd have a problem with it to "I didn't KNOW you'd have a problem with it but i had a little bit of a feeling that you might and i should tell you." Basically, she's caught in the lie/deception.

So, IDK. I don't think anything happened other than that she went somewhere she should have told me about first, and that she probably thought "easier to ask forgiveness than ask for permission." Im sure she feels bad about it but not sure if it because she hurt me and the MR or because i pushed her away emotionally for a week and she felt isolated/alone. All that said... I am NOT over it... I brought it up again obliquely over the weekend and she said "I thought we were okay now" and I kind of let it drop... but I am not "okay." We are doing better "intimately", talking and flirting some and going out, and I am trying to re-establish that closeness with touch and holding and the like, but i am not really feeling it yet. We haven't had sex since the night after I returned home the previous week (two nights after she had been out with bff and gf and she was EXTRA affectionate when I got back. Still burns me to think about.

A new person on the board could read all your threads, and I think they would see a local place that seem to be a hot bed of temptation. I'm talking about your favorite bar. Now, you have defended it to the sky and back, but the way I see it, neither of you should be going there. As I recall, you stopped posting when the subject turned on you a female bartender that worked in this particular bar. And this was right after reconciling with your W! You thought it was kind of funny and brushed it off, and that's when you stopped posting.

So now, your W is still going to that same bar? Like, she goes there alone? I know you wrote extensively about how that was your favorite hangout, etc., etc. It just seems linked to several things that has happened during the past, and maybe currently.

Just to keep the geography straight, and because i know you follow many different people's sitches on here: There are two bars-- 1) OM's bar/hangout, where i used to go from time to time with OM, my former friend until i found out about his A with my W, and where W and bff had numerous meet-ups with OM and his friends during the course of the A, and then 2) "My bar" The patio bar somewhat near to my own neighborhood where I started going as part of my GAL and "get out and meet people" efforts and eventually became a regular there. I am still on good terms with the owner and several members of the staff. W would "drop by" and visit or temp-check me from time to time during the A and before we reconciled, but that was MY hangout, never frequented by OM. Neither me nor my W have been to OM's bar since the A ended and we reconciled, though we had discussed going there together as a "take back", and I have come close to ordering out for wings from there and going to pick them up, and have told W so, though had not yet done so. This was the first time either of us had set foot in the place since the A. MY favorite hangout had been and still to a degree is bar #2 (My Bar) which is the bar where the attractive younger woman tend bar... and Good point about that (though that was not why i stopped posting for a while, that sort of happened on it's own)-- yes, that was and has been a challenge for me. I had continued to go there, sometimes actually with W, sometimes with other friends for happy hour... and found myself getting a little too close to said bartender-- she is very friendly, very pretty, very smart (a doctoral candidate graduating at the end of the summer)--a temptation-- and while she hadn't said or done anything that might have been taken as an overture since that night a few months back, it seemed we were finding out a little too much about each other, which was pointed out by my one evening to W when i mentioned something about her "Oh, _________ was saying she's had some experience with that." Hadn't really resonated with me until then, but i realized that's exactly what happened with my W and OM-- letting someone of the opposite sex get too close. So, now, I don't go there except with W and, preferably, a whole group of friends, ideally other couples.

During the time when your W was staying for the wine down after work, she again, seemed to see nothing wrong with it. If it had continued, I think she was on her way of allowing things to really get out of hand. (Of course, this was before you reconciled). So, she has to stop taking part in these types of settings. I think we've talk before about how she sees no red flags or lives by certain boundary lines........and this gets her into trouble.

Part of the reason all of this is so disconcerting is that everything HAD been going so well, and she HAD been behaving so responsibly. She herself decided/realized that the after-work wine-downs were not an appropriate/healthy atmosphere for her to be in, so she has stopped going... the doctor plied her with a couple of "gift" bottles of wine from time to time for a few weeks after she stopped, but she just brought them home for us... So he stopped. He is somewhat colder to both of us now and I think it is pretty clear what his intentions were all along. At any rate, W doesn't go nor ask to go to those, and she includes me in all work functions that she does attend. She also had not been pining after bff. As I mentioned, she had had a "Trial visit" about three months ago with one other girl (whom I basically trust) and she showed exemplary behavior-- constantly texting me, letting me know what they were doing and where they were (i double checked all of this last week after the recent incident), didn't get drunk, and came home early and made a date for us even though the other two wanted her to stay. She continues to show me the kind of respect and affection that she almost never did before, and all seemed well. Really a head scratcher why she did this, and i hope it wasn't a "thrill" that she'll want to repeat.

So, let me ask if you and your W have been attending Church regularly? Is she getting good food for her soul? This may sound preachy, but she needs to be around sources of good influence. Make friends with people who don't go to bars to hang out.

So, this is both a positive and a potential sticking point with us. She is definitely a person of faith, definitely Christian (which is one of the reasons i ended up with her-- my former GF at the time i met W was an avowed atheist, and I have always been a person of faith even though my adherence and practitioning have waxed and waned, I always knew i believed and always had that faith and it was always important to me, so i knew it was not going to work out to a MR for me and my GF, and I heard my W say something not long after we met which made me realize she WAS a Christian, and that was one of the things i found attractive about her)... BUT also definitely Roman Catholic which, at this point, I am not. I joined the RC church (I was raised Presbyterian) primarily for the kids, but I also was somewhat attracted to the tradition and actually to the inflexibility of the doctrine (God's Word doesn't change just because societal mores do) and it became an important chapter in my spiritual journey. For a number of reasons, however, even as my Christian faith has grown and developed, particularly in the aftermath of the affair and subsequent reconcilliation, my own beliefs and practices have diverged enough from the RC church that i no longer consider myself to be "Roman Catholic" even though i still attend church there with her and the kids. During the period of the A and my own GAL/growth, i became involved, via a good friend (My W's bff's now-XH) with a nearby independent protestant church with a more evangelical bent. Won't belabor all of the specifics, but suffice it to say that the messages i'd hear there on sunday, starting from the very first time i went about two weeks after BD, seemed to speak directly to me-- in fact i am convinced that they did-- and that i was meant to be at that church. The growth and development in my faith and the understanding of some things i gained while going there were instrumental in my own journey and recovery and, ultimately, in the reconcilliation of my MR. I had tried to get my W to go there (as, interestingly, had her bff who at the time was still cohabitating with my friend her then STBXH) and she did view a couple of the Sunday services via TV, once with all four of us (before we know bff's true colors) and once just with me, but said the pastor didn't appeal to her and that he didn't seem trustworthy. Of course, her first exposure was a sermon about MR's and not giving up on them and being committed "to staying" no matter what which, at the time, flew directly in the face of her WW mindset. The church is also much less traditional than a RC church, with people calling out alot in the southern baptist tradition (We are in Virginia) and live Christian pop/folk music instead of the typical choir/organ. I thought she might open up a bit to it after we had reonciled, and i have alluded to the services without directly suggesting we go, but she hasn't bitten. I still watch the services online on Sunday evenings if i have time or, more likely, listen to the podcast of the services later in the week while i am working out. I continue to find them very helpful and inspirational but have not been able to figure out a way to share them with my W. One of the things i find so attractive about this church is that they are VERY big on service and giving back to the community, and also on small focus and prayer groups-- they are constantly doing both of these things, are pretty organized about it, and make it extremely easy to get involved, and these are two areas I have always felt i should be doing more in, particularly service. It is also a VERY positive and uplifting/forgiving atmosphere-- much the opposite of the typical Catholic Guilt Trip (apologies to the Catholics on here) which i feel would really be great for her. All that said, NOT that i have anything against the RC faith in a vacuum-- i know that prople come to God in different ways, and that that way works very well for some people... its just that i have moved past it and have found answers and opportunities i didn't have before at this new place. At any rate... I'd get involved with her at the RC church, too... but just doesn't seem like there are the same opportunities and DEFINITELY not the same level of energy in the congregation. I'd really be open to suggestions, here... and she and i have never been that great about openly discussing our faiths or even praying together outside of church. She tends to be pretty private about it, and has noted on several occasions that she is extremely uncomfortable, even borderline resentful at times at the ease with which evangelicals call out to and converse with God, particularly during extemporaneous prayer, "like it comes so natural and i just don't know how to do that". Obviously all the catholic praying is fairly prescribed, and there is not much opportunity to just "talk to God on your own terms"... and this is the way she was raised and where she is comfortable... Except, obviously, for the guilt she feels at all the "Bad things she has done" (in addition to the A, she, in desperation, had an abortion at a very young age-- freshman in college-- and has never really gotten over the grief and guilt from that). IDK.. like i said, a sticky situation in an area that should, ideally, be an area of refuge/strength for us. I pray for some resolution in this area because i know it could be the bedrock that could fully protect our MR forever... but i just don't know where to go with it. Obviously, any thoughts anyone has on this w3ould be welcome.

It's like the story of feeding the two wolves.

I love the fable of the Two Wolves. I have some Native American heritage back there, my great great Grandmother, so it speaks to me. The second tattoo i got was actually a yin/yang of two wolves, black and white, fighting.

[neffer]

Hi HJ. Speaking from the dark side...I´d give her the benefit of the doubt. I find myself in some how similar situations. It´s about doing some kind of damage control. Trying to keep dark things that could be triggers for our past behaviors: we carry guilt and shame man. We are not free of that and we don´t want to acknowledge the pain we have done to our loved ones. We try to evade that the most.

I know she did wrong going where she went. She knows that too. Some part of reality she doesn´t want to face: our own wrongdoing.

We must face our own demons. We can´t run away forever. You may see the white and black mosaic on the floor HJ, but there´s grey everywhere. The two wolves...

[SteveLW]

Jim, I guess my problem would be that you have no real way of knowing if OM was in town or not. I don't mean to make it worse for you, but it is vacation season. I assume he has people near you he could have been in visiting. I am sorry but the hiding and deception would make my mind go to the worst possible scenario. It just doesn't feel quite right. The phone being out of range. Her being where she shouldn't have been. Who she was with. Just seems like a perfect storm.

[sandi2]

I went to the dictionary to make sure I was using the correct spelling and form of "conscience". Maybe it's due to the subject matter in our previous posts, but I found the definition matching up with that subject.

"The concept of conscience, as commonly used in its moral sense, is the inherent ability of every healthy human being to perceive what is right and what is wrong and, on the strength of this perception, to control, monitor, evaluate and execute their actions. Such values as right or wrong, good or evil, just or unjust, and fair or unfair have existed throughout human history but are also shaped by an individual’s cultural, political and economic environment. The closer our inner state of conscience identifies with the higher perception of these concepts, such as good, right, just, and fair, the higher our degree of “conscience", and less physical stress is experienced if we feel that we act according to these concepts."

She repeated again that she was going to tell me but just couldn't find the right time,


To which her response was "I don't really think you would have been "okay" with it ahead of time".

IMHO, your RWW (recovering WW) knew you would not be okay before she decided to go to that bar. (BTW, thanks for the clarification in the two bars.) Call it intuition, instincts, smarts, conscience, or whatever.......she knew better. She knew how you truly feel about her BFF's influence. Yet, she willingly went along with the group. And, whenever a woman says she was going to tell you but just couldn't find the right time........I call it b.s. I think she was playing with time, hoping that the subject never had to come up. However, when you pulled back and was cool to her for a few days, she ran out of time. Did she have a guilty conscience based on her moral/spiritual values? Was she disappointed in herself (and don't be surprised to hear her use this one), considering she had worked hard the past few months to build trust back into the MR..........and then carelessly through it away? I don't like how she grabs onto the line "I thought we were past this". She may have wanted YOU to get to the place that it didn't bother you if she returned to some former conduct whenever going out with BFF..........but she knew you wouldn't be too happy, and that's why she didn't bring it up before she went.

You had previously wondered if she didn't care about your feelings and the pain it caused you. It's like WW's have a teenager's brain. They don't think it through to the end and the consequences it might cause. They think they can hang out with the wrong people and not be pulled into wrong actions. She knew there was a chance you wouldn't like it if she asked beforehand, so she just didn't say anything. To me, that is an action. It says it was more important to her to go along with her friends, than to be open with you about what was really going on that night (when her phone went dead, etc.). If she was innocent of any inappropriate conduct, all she had to do was tell you what happened. Instead, she chose to conceal as best she could.

So, what happened between the last time she went out with her BFF and this time? Maybe nothing. Like I said, I have to wonder if she thinks that in time she will be able to go out with those women and it not lead to something inappropriate? IMHO, she can't fall back into those old behavior patterns and expect different outcomes. The first time meeting with BFF, she did all the things she could to secure your feelings. But the more frequently she's around her, I think her resolve weakens.

Neither me nor my W have been to OM's bar since the A ended and we reconciled, though we had discussed going there together as a "take back", and I have come close to ordering out for wings from there and going to pick them up, and have told W so, though had not yet done so.

I think I expressed my views about this in the past, but why would you do that? I know, someone IRL suggested, but it seems crazy. Don't play with that sort of stuff. Stay away from negative influences, even when your MR is strong.

Hadn't really resonated with me until then, but i realized that's exactly what happened with my W and OM-- letting someone of the opposite sex get too close. So, now, I don't go there except with W and, preferably, a whole group of friends, ideally other couples.

I'm really glad to hear that!

She also had not been pining after bff. As I mentioned, she had had a "Trial visit" about three months ago with one other girl (whom I basically trust) and she showed exemplary behavior-- constantly texting me, letting me know what they were doing and where they were (i double checked all of this last week after the recent incident), didn't get drunk, and came home early and made a date for us even though the other two wanted her to stay. She continues to show me the kind of respect and affection that she almost never did before, and all seemed well. Really a head scratcher why she did this, and i hope it wasn't a "thrill" that she'll want to repeat.

She can't let down her guard. Have you discussed and agreed to certain ground rules to observe, as a means of shielding your MR from the things that lead to mistrust, suspicion, and inappropriate conduct? I mean, this could be an opportunity for the two of you to form a plan that protects your relationship from affairs. I'm not saying there is an affair proof plan, but thinking it won't ever happen to you is a snare that catches many couples unaware. I am not going to temp the strength of my MR by contacting someone on a dating site. I'm going nowhere around something of that nature. I'm not going to engage in online games, although I feel like it wouldn't bother me..........why would I temp it? I'm not going online to take back anything. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses, and you have to make some choices in your life and stay away from particular influences. If you run with the hogs, the slop starts looking okay to have for a snack.......or meal.

i know that prople come to God in different ways, and that that way works very well for some people... its just that i have moved past it and have found answers and opportunities i didn't have before at this new place. At any rate... I'd get involved with her at the RC church, too... but just doesn't seem like there are the same opportunities and DEFINITELY not the same level of energy in the congregation. I'd really be open to suggestions, here... and she and i have never been that great about openly discussing our faiths or even praying together outside of church. She tends to be pretty private about it, and has noted on several occasions that she is extremely uncomfortable, even borderline resentful at times at the ease with which evangelicals call out to and converse with God, particularly during extemporaneous prayer, "like it comes so natural and i just don't know how to do that".

It's a touchy situation for many people. It can feel very uncomfortable when you visit a congregation who worships in a style that's different than your own. And, let's be real here........some people in some congregations can get a little aggressive with newcomers, wanting them to join. Do you feel weird openly discussing your faith together, or is it mostly your W who feels uncomfortable? I don't understand why she would resent it, unless she felt someone was trying to force her to believe or practice in a way she's doesn't welcome. If that's the case, I would resent it, also. IDK, but based on past discussions with you, your W seems to tie religion to guilt, so she might see you as trying to use faith-based beliefs as a way of controlling.

[sandi2]

How are things going?

[artista]

wow, Hoosjim... i have been gone about a year... last July my 93-year old mother had lung surgery and survived... in August, my very much alive 66-year old brother had a benign tumor removed from his brain... he was supposed to be in the hospital for 5 days after the surgery and then go home... he survived the surgery but never woke up... he passed 3 weeks later, and it was shocking and devastating to our very close-knit family... we never expected him to die, and his passing was very hard on all of us, and especially my parents... in November my 93-year old mother broke her hip... she had surgery, survived the surgery and has recovered... she is as active as she was before breaking her hip... sadly, my 95-year old daddy passed away in late January... he died in the kindest, most gentle way possible... he went to take a nap and never woke up... so i have been away a little more than a year... here we are in August and today i decided to take a look at DB... first time since July 2018... i was looking for familiar posters, and i saw your name... so i am here, and i am interested in reading your situation and responding this weekend...

--artista

[artista]

okay... i am home from work now... i think it's good that you noticed the red flags and you are not rationalizing them as much as you used to... i have been in these situations, and sometimes it was me really being deceitful, and sometimes it was me being in a situation that i had not planned, but was not brave enough to tell my husband... and i did behave the same way your wife has... overly affectionate, etc... once when this happened, and my husband was suspicious for maybe a day or two, he finally confronted me, and this pretty much what he said: "artista, you have tell-tale signs when you are hiding something... i gave you a chance to be open and honest with me, but so far you have not taken that opportunity..." i want to say that this happened twice after our reconciliation... the other time, while i was having lunch by myself at a sushi restaurant, he called me and asked me, "is our marriage over?" boom! i said, "no... why???" and he said he knew i was hiding something... and both times i came clean... both times it was silly of me to not be upfront with my husband... i had not done anything wrong, until i kept things to myself... perhaps you can tell her that she has tell-tale signs when she is hiding something...

--artista

[curtis7]

i have been gone about a year...
--artista

Artista, welcome back, as a former WW, I would really appreciate your feedback on my sitch. Warning...it’s a long one with one of the worst WW according to some on this board. Thanks in advance.

Hoosjim, sorry to thread hijack.

[sandi2]

Artista! I am so happy to hear from you. You've been missed a lot. Sorry to hear about your loved ones. It's really hard when death hits so close together. (((hugs)))

[hoosjim]

Sandi2, artista... thanks for responding. You two were always stalwarts in sticking by me and supporting me through my darkest periods... even when i wasn't always receptive or otherwise very pleasant to deal with so i appreciate the continued follow up.

artista, so, so sorry to hear about your loss! I know we are all dealing with or have dealt with loss of some type at some point on this site, but you have been hit with so much in a very short period of time! My thoughts and prayers are with you... hang in there!

Sandi:

I call it b.s. I think she was playing with time, hoping that the subject never had to come up. However, when you pulled back and was cool to her for a few days, she ran out of time. Did she have a guilty conscience based on her moral/spiritual values? Was she disappointed in herself (and don't be surprised to hear her use this one), considering she had worked hard the past few months to build trust back into the MR..........and then carelessly through it away?

Sandi, we ended up having a long talk about this Thursday, and have had a couple of smaller talks since. My take, based mostly on what my W has said, but some on my own "read" of her, is that it was something very much like this. She went along with the girls, didn't want to fight the crowd and bff (who has a very strong personality and can be a bit of a bully), thought she could get in touch with me, then got scared to but still wanted to go along with her friends, then after it was past and things were okay with us just figured (hoped?) it would either a) never come up or b) not be an issue with me if it did.

Her story is that she tried to text me but got no response (true, my phone had died by the time they came out of dinner restaurant) and that had she gotten a response she wanted to talk by phone, but she didn't just want to drop a text on me of "I am going to the old bar where I used to hang out with OM"... she wanted to talk by voice. So she went along with bff and other gf who wanted to go Karaoke. She had been drinking less so she was the driver for all three. She searched for karaoke in town (also true-- she offered up her google search history to me and showed me) and they also drove around the old town downtown area past a couple of other pubs to see if they looked active and or had karaoke (also supported by some evidence-- we went back over her location track on her phone and did show them drive past those two other places, slightly out of the way, first). She tried texting me again when they got to the bar before they went in (she did), and then again once in bar from bathroom "because it was loud in bar from the music and if she got through to me she wanted to talk" (though my take is that there was probably an element of not wanting to get jeered by the other girls for calling her husband-- the other two are single/separated). She says they didn't anticipate seeing OM or that crowd since he is now living out of state, had previously had a falling out with owner, and that plan was to not go in or immediately leave if they saw any sign of that crowd in bar (and she shared tidbit with me that bff had also briefly dated someone from that crowd that she did NOT want to see again-- which jives with some of my old intel from two years back that i had not shared with her). They stayed a little over an hour, not many people there, and saw none of the "old crowd" (OM's crowd.) The bar has changed locations, and is more modern and less of a dive... she says it appears to be a different sort of clientelle now.

This story did not, of course, satisfy me or make things "all better"-- simply because the issue was NOT that she had gone there, but that she had done so in secret and that she had either deceived me or knowingly done something that could hurt me and our MR badly... But she granted she should either have told me ahead of time or not gone at all, and she apologized continually and profusely.

She was very contrite, tearful... sorry she had "disappointed me" and "hurt the trust we had rebuilt".She said she understood that it hurt me to have found out the way that i did... that she kept wanting to tell me but never found the right moment with issues with the kids coming up and then we had had a little spat about something else, and then it kept getting farther and farther in the past and she thought it might be better just to let it go. She'd made a "bad decision" and hoped i could forgive her but she knew it might take time. She also never once objected to me "snooping" or "spying", as she had in the bad old days, and we both agreed that keeping our location trackers and phones on was a good idea. We talked about the importance of putting each other and the MR first... in front of all our other relationships. At one point i said "I know bff is your best friend.." and she interrupted me and said, again through tears "No, your'e my best friend... dont you know that by now?" We also talked about the importance of protecting ourselves and the marriage, recommitted to being open about EVERYTHING, even things we thought might anger or hurt the other one, since concealing things of that nature had, in the past, been a big contributor to the downfall of our MR.

I again talked about my concerns about bff and her influence, and W said "I know she's not perfect and she's done a lot of bad things, but she has also had a really hard life (she has-- rape, a second near-rape, molested for years by her stepbrother, both her mothers are trainwrecks as is much of her family), i'm her only real friend, and I can't just abandon her... I don't agree with some of the things she's done, but that doesn't mean i cant be friends with her... but i do know i need to be careful and that i need to put us first always and im not going to make this kind of mistake again. If you want me to not see her i won't see her. (We agreed to talk more about this.)

I found her believable. I can read her pretty well, and while I think there may have been a little more of "I think i can get away with this with my friends" than she let on, I think the situation (MY phone being off as well and me being unreachable after her phone being out of range earlier when I was up and running, her long lost bff being in town and out with girls) contributed to enabling what happened, and that she would have told me had we talked that evening. She did, after all, fess up on her own after i had shut her out for three days and I asked her "Is there any reason you can think of that i should be mad at you?" I absolutely do NOT think she had any sort of liaison with OM or any other man.

We have mostly made up... had a couple of good dates, have been intimate again (she basically raped me last night in the kitchen while i was fixing the dishwasher)... though this obviously has created a new wound (or torn the scar tissue on the old one, which will take time to heal.) We are going to check in with MC when we are down there in a couple of weeks.

I don't understand why she would resent it, unless she felt someone was trying to force her to believe or practice in a way she's doesn't welcome. If that's the case, I would resent it, also. IDK, but based on past discussions with you, your W seems to tie religion to guilt, so she might see you as trying to use faith-based beliefs as a way of controlling.

Some of our awkwardness WRT religion dates back to when the kids were younger (and in the bad old days when we were more at odds than we were "partners") and I started having issues with the RCC and some of its teachings. This translated into me actively resisting some of the teachings wrt our kids and NOT backing up my W on some things... which just became another thing that i "doubted" about her and her values and that i "disagreed with" her on. Of course, now, as i said above, my views on religion and faith and how people come to God/Christ has softened somewhat, and I am much less dogmatic that my own understanding/revelation has to be the model for anyone else. Still, there's some uncertainty there for both of us... it is the one area where i wish more than anything i knew how to strengthen our relationship.

Artista:

i have been in these situations, and sometimes it was me really being deceitful, and sometimes it was me being in a situation that i had not planned, but was not brave enough to tell my husband... and i did behave the same way your wife has... overly affectionate, etc... once when this happened, and my husband was suspicious for maybe a day or two, he finally confronted me, and this pretty much what he said: "artista, you have tell-tale signs when you are hiding something... i gave you a chance to be open and honest with me, but so far you have not taken that opportunity..." i want to say that this happened twice after our reconciliation... the other time, while i was having lunch by myself at a sushi restaurant, he called me and asked me, "is our marriage over?" boom! i said, "no... why???" and he said he knew i was hiding something... and both times i came clean... both times it was silly of me to not be upfront with my husband... i had not done anything wrong, until i kept things to myself... perhaps you can tell her that she has tell-tale signs when she is hiding something...

Artisa, oh my gosh, YES!!! This is exactly the dyamic with me and my W!! She has major tells! She would be a horrible poker player! I told her often even during the depths of her WW period that she was a terrible (i.e. ineffective) liar, and it had been a running joke with us even before that that she was terrible at keeping secrets or hiding things even as simple as surprise parties or gifts. She just is not at all good at deceiving people. Not that she hasn't tried-- obviously the whole affair thing WAS deception, but she's just... bad at it. She'd do things like leave birthday cards to OM (and clearly for him) lying in plain sight on front seat of her car. And obviously her tells, which i levelled with her about this time--- mainly that she becomes EXTRA affectionate and solicitous after she has screwed up or done something wrong.. It's not as obvious now because we are so often affectionate... but you can still tell, plus I just have a very attuned and accurate sixth sense about people... I always have. I even had such about my ex-friend the OM, though i could never quite put my finger on it and my senses had become dulled due to the pit i was in but... i still had little alarm bells (which obviously should have been bigger, lol) Problem is with this (and she noted it) is that now she's "going to worry about being affectionate with me because I'm going to think she's upf to something". I told her it was more than just the being nice/affectionate, that it's the effusiveness/excessiveness of it given the situation and that, in addition to that, I just have a good "feel" for her... At any rate, this must have satisfied her objections given her behavior in the kitchen last night...

Anyway, we seem to be on the right track.

Interesting post script concerning our other issue, which is the female bartender at my (now our) other watering hole. W showed up to meet me there after work on Thursday... this was prior to our climactic thursday night talk on all of this... and we stayed and talked for a while, meeting two other friends plus one of the other regulars there. Our bartender was the attractive young lady-- the phd candidate-- i've previously discussed here. Wife has very fun, talkative. She found out my fellow "regular" was a classmate one year removed of hers at college, and also a basketball player like her... they knew alot of the same people. She kept reaching over and grabbing/groping me while she was talking to him, which is a bit out of character for her (At least in public, lol) and she later told me she was worried i would be hurt/worried about her talking to one of my friends at a bar, since that was how things with OM got started. At any rate, during our in depth talk later, I asked her"so, is there anything else i need to know that i don't know, that might come out later.. anything." She said no... no contact from OM, nothing. Then she asked "What about you". And I said "No, nothing... why?" Her: "Well, I see how bartender looks at you, and how you look at her..." at which point i object "Me look at her?"-- because I really don't "look" at her...or at least if I do it's not consciously, and i DEFINTELY make efforts to look ANYWHERE else when W is there... And W says "No, it's all good, im not worried, but i do see those things." Then she asks me "where did you stay that week and a half you were away last year" (meaning after i walked out)... "I know you were over there at the bar a few nights, and when i asked you last week where you stayed, jokingly, you were kind of evasive." (And i was, but i thought it was in a playful kind of mysterious way, but she apparently took it otherwise.) So I told her "I only stayed at hotels... not with anyone else. I'll be honest, i was so upset and "done" with you at that point that if an opportunity had arisen with someone i might very well have taken it... but it never arose.... and bartender was never at the bar on any of those nights when i was there during that period" [she had been out of country on a medical mission, apparently]...I continued: "IT;s actually one of those things that makes me think God was looking out for us... that and the way we got back together in the following weeks even though i was convinced we were done... until i saw you in town the night we first met to see if there was any hope."

At any rate, W seems comfortable being there and does not seem intimidated at all by this quite beautiful younger woman (with whom she actually shares a whole, whole lot in common). She even said in my ear during thursday happy hour at one point, "If she tries to hug you I'm going to take her down." (We later agreed that that or any other kind of touch with a member of the opposite sex for either of us has to be off limits).

I think we have appropriate limits in place... Like i said i don't go there without her any more, but i am curious from the women here: How good is y'all's "sixth sense" about such things, or does jealousy tend to render it over-active? At this point, despite the veiled overture (which may not even have been one) a few months back, I don't think there's anything there... and remember this is coming from me, a very typical male, who is hard-wired to think that most women do, in fact, "want" him, lol. I just think she's seeing things that arent there... though i did not say that to her... mostly joked and said things like "Well of course she's going to be interested... You've obviously got great taste in men, right?" But I do worry about her self-esteem issues coming back to haunt us... constantly worrying about WON I am going to stray, etc. She hasn't made any comments like she used to in the past, but if she's starting to see things that arent' there, maybe that's a concern.

[sandi2]

Finally! I was on pins & needles waiting to hear something.

I'm relieved to hear the conversation went well and that you feel better about her.

It does seem to match with what Artista was saying about herself.

I think we have appropriate limits in place... Like i said i don't go there without her any more, but i am curious from the women here: How good is y'all's "sixth sense" about such things, or does jealousy tend to render it over-active?

Women can read other women......especially when that other woman is looking a certain way at our man! Oh yes, honey........out sixth sense is very aware of what that hussy is doing.

Some women are jealous if another woman starts doing something we women all recognize in other women, it might make us jealous.........it kind of depends on how secure we feel. I think some jealousy comes into play for the wife in how her H responds to the hussy. I mean, to us it is so obvious when the OW is making eyes at him, even watching him when OW thinks he isn't noticing, flirting, touching his arm, over-laughing at his unfunny jokes, complementing, or whatever. When the H acts as if he is dense and doesn't see what OW is really doing.......and laughs at us if we bring it to his attention.......it makes us angry. If we say something to him about the OW's behavior, and he accuses us of over reacting, feeling jealous or imagining it............then it makes us angry. And, if he just eats up the OW's attention.......and afterwards, talk about how "nice" she is..........it makes us angry. And, don't even think of flirting back with that hussy.

[artista]

good morning, curtis7... i will take a look at your situation...

--artista

[hoosjim]

I'm relieved to hear the conversation went well and that you feel better about her.

It does seem to match with what Artista was saying about herself.

Thanks, Sandi.... Yes, i really do feel that that is it-- she just screwed up, made a bad decision, whatever, and then feared coming forward about it and thought/hoped it would just blow over. She knows, and the episode was probably good, in a way, even though it caused some short-term damage, because it got us talking again about more fundamental aspects of the MR which we hadn't done alot of lately because "things were so good"... but i think it IS good for a married couple to examine hard issues and talk about those sorts of things from time to time, even when things ARE good.

over-laughing at his unfunny jokes,

Hey! My jokes are quite funny, thank you!

I mean, to us it is so obvious when the OW is making eyes at him, even watching him when OW thinks he isn't noticing, flirting, touching his arm, over-laughing at his unfunny jokes, complementing, or whatever. When the H acts as if he is dense and doesn't see what OW is really doing.......and laughs at us if we bring it to his attention.......it makes us angry. If we say something to him about the OW's behavior, and he accuses us of over reacting, feeling jealous or imagining it............then it makes us angry. And, if he just eats up the OW's attention.......and afterwards, talk about how "nice" she is..........it makes us angry.

Yeah... <sigh>... I figured. Unfortunate situation. Now, i have not laughed at my W's take or accused her of overreacting or otherwise denied/refuted/invalidated my W's read on the situation. In fact, if you'll recall, after what i interpreted as the veiled overture from lovely bartender a few months back, I shared it with my W... though i was reluctant to do so... didn't want to be throwing accusations or causing hard feelings where none were warranted. (Though W has been convinced this chick has had her eye on my ever since W first showed up there during the bad old WW days when i was off on my own a bit and W used to drop by that bar from time to time to meet me and commented that this gal was intentionally ignoring me/us when W was around-- and honestly at that point in time i thought it couldn't hurt the dynamic with my W for W to think other women were interested in me). However, there were other possible interpretations to that overture from bartender (though, as I have said, i usually have a pretty good read on people and their intentions and a pretty good track record of knowing what people are after-- and, yes, even WRT potentially interested women and even though i am a man) and I have not seen anything since that time that would qualify as such, though this girl does continue to be friendly, chatty, comps me drinks on a regular basis (though i tip well as a customer and if i had a dollar for every time a female bartender had comped me a drink I'd be a rich man) and, yes, will sometimes touch me on the shoulder when she comes up from time to time-- but nothing i would consider out of line for a bartender with whom I am friendly and a regular customer. She did once, a couple weeks back, recommended another bar to me that i have since found out she herself has gone to (which recommendation i also shared with W and we actually went on Saturday), but there was never any invitation to meet or the like. If she is still making a play for me she is being extremely subtle about it. But, like I said, I have acknowledged in talking with my W that it (bartender interest in me) is possible and that I value her (W's) feelings on the subject, to which W has replied "I like the place, too, and I think we can keep going there." (It is a very unique place around here in terms of food, outdoor ambience, and live music-- an excellent and fun date spot).

For my own part, I have been upfront with W that, when she and i were on the outs, I would "flirt" with this bartender from time to time (but very lightly and playfully, in the way that many men will flirt with female bartenders and not in a "coming-on-to-you" kind of way) and, in fact, that I would often flirt with other women in the same fashion. Not that i was looking for anything per se at that point in time-- i still had hopes to save my marriage-- but engaging in that type of banter was fun, and liberating and, at the time, seemed harmless enough. And I have also told W that, had an opportunity with this bartender or another attractive OW come up during those couple of weeks that I walked out I cannot say for sure that i would not have taken it-- that that's how "done" I was with her and the MR...

But

that no such opportunity arose, despite my being at that bar without my ring on, for several nights. (Bartender was out of the country on a medical mission for her degree those two weeks-- interesting coincidence.) I have told W, and I remain absolutely convinced, that God was watching out for us and for our MR, and wasn't going to let me get into any tempting situations during that delicate period. And I have also been clear with my W that she is who I want and she is who I have chosen (and also make sure to point out to her all of the things I love about her and how we have so much fun together, etc etc.). I always tell her: "You know where my heart is."

And, if he just eats up the OW's attention.......and afterwards, talk about how "nice" she is..........it makes us angry. And, don't even think of flirting back with that hussy.

And I don't do any of that... at least not anymore. But... I do think it's unfortunate, and I do think that that evaluation of this girl may be a bit harsh. If/when she did become interested in me, I was arguably fair game-- not wearing a ring, frequenting this bar on my own, returning friendly attention... and I didn't make any secret of the fact even after my WW showed up once or twice that we were on the rocks. While never discussed it directly with this particular bartender, i didn't make a secret of it. One of the other bartenders (also a girl) once asked me "what's the deal with you two (meaning me and W).. sometimes i think you two are married and sometimes maybe dating and sometimes nothing, and you never say one way or the other", (If you'll recall W and i weren't at all snuggly or intimate or touchy-feely at that point) to which my response at the time was "Well, legally speaking, we're husband and wife... but as a practical matter we're just friends... and everything else between those two right now we're just kind of trying to figure out." So, it's quite possible, even probable, that our lovely "hussy" bartendress thought W and i were basically done at that point and that i was fair game. So, yeah, maybe she's interested, but I sure didn't do anything to dissuade her during the formative period of our acquaintance, and, to be honest, I do like her as a person... she's sunny, friendly, likes helping people... seems like a very nice girl. (Though I am careful to never point this out to my W) And, while I've several times told my W, half-jokingly: "Tall brunette, not my type" (which is generally true-- my W is a petite blonde as have been almost all of my relationships), under other circumstances and given maybe ten years less of age difference she's someone i could see myself being interested in-- as I believe i mentioned above she is, in terms of temperament and personality and background and interests very, very much like my W. And once her bartending days are done... likely within a couple of months.. she will be working in the same field as my W... in fact it is not at all unlikely that she would at some point interview with the clinic at which my W works, which is one of the largest and best known in the area and region, and also not at all unlikely that we will run into her socially or professionally in the future. So... someone we in other circumstances could have had a productive friendship with, even helped along the way with our contacts and connections and experience (which this girl might need-- she's said she feels very lost/directionless in the job/career search area right now-- also frighteningly similar to my W at a similar age)... but obviously not now. And I feel somewhat responsible for that.

Anyway... seems like we have a good handle on things here, now, and i appreciate all y'all's input.. As always, your help and support and insight has been invaluable.

Last note for anyone reading my thread... My own PSA for today: I cannot overstate how important it is to DATE YOUR SPOUSE. Go out! Have Fun! Find new exciting things to do! Be each others' best friend. So many couples these days make heroic efforts to "put the kids first", and so many others get lost in self-entertainment or social media, and still others hyper focus on career. Your MR is the single most important relationship in your life... and DOUBLY so (not LESS so) if you have kids. The best gift you can give your children is a hot marriage... wish my W and i had known this sooner...

[Traveler]

Last note for anyone reading my thread... My own PSA for today: I cannot overstate how important it is to DATE YOUR SPOUSE. Go out! Have Fun! Find new exciting things to do! Be each others' best friend. So many couples these days make heroic efforts to "put the kids first", and so many others get lost in self-entertainment or social media, and still others hyper focus on career. Your MR is the single most important relationship in your life... and DOUBLY so (not LESS so) if you have kids. The best gift you can give your children is a hot marriage... wish my W and i had known this sooner...

Thanks. This is great advice. Need to do more of it. :p

[neffer]

Back to normal then...greatttttt!

[hoosjim]

Here's a question that's preying... somewhat heavily... on my mind today:

Once you are reconciling with your formerly WAS, or even, for that matter, reconciled, do you need to know whether or not your spouse actually had physical relations with someone else while they were in "walk-away" or "wayward" status? Should you want to know? Or Not? If so, should you ask, point blank? Does it matter?

Okay, so that's actually several questions, but same general issue.

In my case, I was inspired to do some self-reflecting over the weekend, partly as the result of a church service i attended recently and partly as the result of finding, while cleaning out the garage, a stack of my old journals from my early DB-ing days when my W was still very wayward, embroiled in what was at least an EA, and things looked very bleak for my MR. For color, my W is currently travelling out of town for a week and a half with her mother to visit her sister and nephew/godson. (They live in Nevada-- not Vegas--and tickets were expensive and we're cost-cutting so i stayed behind). I was intentionally flipping through the "worst" part of the timeline, trying to re-explore my feelings and how i got through that journey (my faith played a huge role, as you know, as did, i am still convinced, divine intervention both of which also interplayed with me finding these boards and DB-ing books) and, unfortunately, it brought back echoes of the old hurt and pain. Also, looking at it in the clear light of day, with a clear mind (BOY was I a mess back then, definitely less clear of mind), alot of what happened seemed clearer and less foggy in the clear light of hindsight. One thing that really stuck out to me is that I never found out definitively one way or the other if she had sexual relations with OM... even though she definitely had motive and opportunity. That particular detail sort of got glossed over and "washed away" in our ultimate reconcilliation and journey into piecing-- She did write me a couple of very long letters basically taking full responsibility, admitting what she had done, etc., and of course we had multiple therapy sessions where we cleared the air and i insisted on full accountability and the answers to several specific questions about her deceptions, which she uniformly and gladly answered... But i never specifically asked that question, nor did i even imply i wanted an answer to it. Maybe i was afraid of the answer, idk. I think i have said previously in my threads that i have some good reasons (that i wont go into here) to believe she did not have actual intercourse with the man, even during the depths of our ordeal. I also believe, though i am not certain and i did not make not of it in my journal, that at some point in early reconcilliation or as our MC was brokering our getting back together "to talk" that I indicated if she had had intercourse with him that she would need to be tested (particularly given this dirtbag's background)... or maybe MC suggested this, idk... but i think it came up and i think she gave some indication it was nothing to worry about, though my recollection also is that she was far from definitive in terms of "we had no sexual relations of any kind". Further, obviously, there are degrees of "sexual relations" (despite what Bill Clinton avers) that would not raise such testing concerns, and which would also not implicate such. She knows i know they "spent a night together in a hotel" which they did-- unplanned, apparently, after some social event involving her and bff and other friends-- and there may or may not have been others in the hotel room ... but i never got any details from her in response to the revelation from me that i knew, and i did not ask her to provide any, i just threw it out there during one of our early reconcilliation- process discussions when she backpedaled at one point on "how serious" the relationship with him was (Me: "Look I know X,Y, and Z, and I know you spent the night with him in a hotel"). Her only response was not details and not a denial that anything happened but rather "I'm not in love with him and i have no feelings for him and I am not seeing him or in contact or even want to be in contact with him..i want to be with you" (or something to that affect.) And, like I said, i never pushed it. I actually don't even know exactly when/where the night together occurred... There were two or three windows where something like that actually could have happened, and i never insisted on that being something she specifically and in detail come clean on. Not sure why. Maybe i figured she'd lose respect for me if she knew i knew she's slept with another man and i still wanted her back. Maybe because I was afraid it would affect how I felt about her to know for sure... and at that point i was once again interested in reconciling and getting a fresh start.

Problem is.... Now it's eating at me. Yeah, i know i know i shouldn't have gone down that rabbit hole... but now i did and I'm there. Brought up familiar feelings of resentment that i hadn't felt in a long time-- When W and i first met and dated, we split for a while (actually she broke up with me-- first time that had ever happened to me and hurt because she was first girl i ever really fell hard for) and she actually kind of threw me over for another guy who she had a couple of non-date "dates" with before we split. A bit more complicated than that-- she had told me she wasn't ready for a serious relationship, was scared at how close we were getting, and insisted (on and off) that we were "just friends" or "just hanging out". Still, at the time, it blindsed and hurt me (she knew how i felt, was forthcoming about some of her feelings but deceptive about seeing this other guy) and i harbored some resentment towards her for a considerable period--- resentment that very, very very nearly resulted in me having an affair while we were engaged (I came to my senses just in time and didn't go through with it.) At any rate, this latest re-visitation to her WW days and this issue raised some similar feelings... maybe not as strong as I am more confident now in our relationship than i think i have ever been, but it still ate at me enough when i was out with friends this weekend that i was getting borderline resentful again, almost to the point of appreciating the attention of other females a bit too much "Did she really sleep around on me? Seriously?" (And, yes, i am careful here and know how to maintain good boundaries but it was troubling to feel those feelings again.)

Thinking i probably eventually just get over this. Prayer, thankfulness, etc. I am strongly considering pitching the journals in a nod to our fresh start. Not even sure how i would ask her about this at this point, and, again, not sure i want to hear the answer... but at the same time some grimly curious part of me does... even as i know it might not be good to hear. And if i did hear, how would i respond? Could i ever get that image/thought out of my head? Would it lead me down a bad path as it nearly did before? But if i don't know, how long is that doubt going to hide in some dark place in my head gnawing at me and waiting for a moment of weakness to jump out and bite.

Anybody else have any experience with or thoughts on this?

Thanks yall...

[SteveLW]

So here is the thing. I will quote a line from Queensryche, "I Don't Believe In Love""

"She said she loved me,
I guess I never knew,
But do we ever,
Ever really know?"

Here is the thing whether she did or didn't with OM. Or some other man at some point when you your marriage was not good. You never ever really know.

I've known spouses that took affairs, or one night encounters, to their graves. Their spouse never knowing or even suspecting.

So you could ask her. She could say no. But would that settle it in your mind? I am guessing not.

Here are some more important questions:

1) Does it matter? I mean, if she were to admit to one night of wild passion with OM, would you take any action?
2) If it does matter, what would that action be? It has been so long that testing really is meaningless (issues would already have arisen). Are you going to leave her over it? (I am guessing not.)
3) Whether it does or doesn't matter, why is it bothering you? Maybe that is something to talk about in IC? There is no harm in going to IC to deal with this. I am of the belief now that dealing with the aftermath of D, nearly Ding, or affairs that we suffer from a form of PTSD. And that occasionally we need to deal with that with a professional.

Our old house is in the process of being sold. As soon as it is I will be scheduling IC with a Christian based therapist for myself.

[hoosjim]

So here is the thing. I will quote a line from Queensryche, "I Don't Believe In Love""

"She said she loved me,
I guess I never knew,
But do we ever,
Ever really know?"

I love this forum. If for no other reason than that i know i can come here and get Queensryche in response to a post...

You of course raise several good points, Steve, and some of those have already been swirling in my head. Does it really, at the end of the day, matter? Any more than if I (or she) has a one-time fleeting thought at some point about another member of the opposite sex ("Hmmm, nice, wonder what...")? And would i believe her 100% if she said "no"? Perhaps not. Probably the only way i 100% believe her is if she were to say "yes." I certainly don't think I'd take any action at this point... we both "chose" to come back, I had certain paramaters/boundaries that i insisted on, certain things i absolutely needed her to fess up to and come clean on... and she did. And we've had a great relationship with only one, to this point, hiccup. At this point we've each accepted the other back, at this point pretty unconditionally (barring obviously any future infidelities) and are moving forward. Maybe i just want to know more details about that night, idk... even if she lied when telling me, i'm just wondering how it came about, what the context was...why she never mentioned it as she came clean on everything else... even after i made it clear i knew about that. She's certainly come clean about things that i know were extremely difficult for her to admit to, but not that. Given everything else she's said/done, it would have been consistent of her to bring that up at some point, so regularly has she voiced remorse and sorrow over both the general situation and about specific wrongs, especially ones she knows i know about and that bother me.

And i am probably making it sound on here like it is a bigger deal to me than it actually is... I am not about to walk out on her or even go off on her or anything. But it has put a thorn in me, and I am constantly on guard nowadays for things that might threaten or weaken the relationship, even down the road, and having this dark doubt in the back of my mind sure seems like it might qualify.

I'd thought about the IC option, but the IC in my case is also our MC. Not sure i could really see her confidentially. I mean, of course i could see her confidentially, but W and i have resolved to be very open with each other, to discuss if we have any concerns, doubts, or issues, and we have generally done so, and MC is generally of the opinion that H/W should generally be completely open/honest with each other. That said, MC has, in the past, confidentially served each of us (W and I) in the capacity of IC, so she is certainly comfortable doing so, and i am sure she would be willing to do so again. Logisitically, I would likely just tell W there are some things that I need to work out and feel like i need to talk to Jessica in IC. Of course, if i do that, it's going to raise all sorts of doubts in my W's mind, and my W has a tendency to let her imagination run wild and assume the worst, and W is certain to keep asking me about it and bringing it up. So it's problematic from that standpoint. Options: 1) Talk to IC, don't tell W (I'm keeping secrets) 2) Talk to IC, tell W but not why (her imagination then drives her crazy wondering) 3) Talk to IC, tell W why, (which seems silly, might as well just discuss it with W in that case) 4) Do nothing (It likely passes after W gets back later this week and we reconnect, I get over it, and we move on... or maybe it festers like a tiny tumor... idk.)

All in all, first world problems, I suppose, given where we have been in the past and where we are now. I probably should have made it more of an issue at the time and insisted on discussing it and getting some closure. Not sure why i didn't . Maybe i feared the answer.

[Ready2Change]

I did not reconcile. I am in a new long term relationship (Close to 10 years now).

With my lady, I do not ask questions about past sexual experiences. When she brings them up, I will listen. I make it safe for her talk so I can know the "real her". Can you get mentally to that point?

You will know all her "dirty secrets" and still be OK with it and love her more for being open and honest and vulnerable?

[SteveLW]

Hoosjim, all great points. I really do believe in the PTSD thing though. So maybe #2, explaining to your W that you have some hangups that you just need to work through and that you will be completely open with her about what those things are if she really wants to know. But that you think it is best working it out in IC instead of burdening her with your hangups.

Maybe that won't work. Maybe it will.

I'd say go with #4 first, if it doesn't stop festering then move on to #2 with as much openness as she needs to feel comfortable.

[hoosjim]

I did not reconcile. I am in a new long term relationship (Close to 10 years now).

With my lady, I do not ask questions about past sexual experiences. When she brings them up, I will listen. I make it safe for her talk so I can know the "real her". Can you get mentally to that point?

I agree with and am comfortable with that paradigm. Actually, so is my W, and we have both been open with each other about past sexual experiences before we met.

Problem is... the dynamic i am talking about here is a little more complicated, don't you think? We are talking about sexual experiences here that, necessarily, involve betrayal, infidelity, adultery and which are potentially the most proximate and painful hurdle to be overcome in our reconciliation. It's one thing to openly discuss, with your current spouse or significant other, relationships you had before y'all met... it's quite another to discuss intimate relationships either of you had with someone else while you were still in a supposedly committed relationship with each other.

The former, i know from experience i am comfortable with. The latter... I honestly feel like i don't know, although I fear that deep down i do know and that that's why i avoided digging that deep on that point.

Maybe a quick session with the IC, on the QT, wouldn't be a bad idea...

[Ready2Change]

it's quite another to discuss intimate relationships either of you had with someone else while you were still in a supposedly committed relationship with each other.

That is why I made it clear about my first person perspective and can't give you my "Hindsight".

Browse here, "understanding affairs" might have some insight for you:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2061094#Post2061094

[hoosjim]

Hey y'all,

For those who've followed my sitch from the beginning, you'll recall that one of the significant contributors to my MR degrading and falling apart, followed by an affair and near divorce, was my own ill health. I had a series of progressive and chronic conditions that literally almost killed me and was one of the things (financial trouble the other) that led me to an extreme degree of self-absorption and to me, in many ways, just giving up on a lot of things, my W and MR included. Those health problems were eventually unwound and solved, and I returned to a level of health probably better than at any time since my early 20s. (I am 53 currently). Unfortunately, the damage to my marriage was already done, and my wife and I almost did not make it through it. As youll recall, through a series of occurrences including my finding of the DB-ing resources (and for all of which I attribute a great degree of divine intervention) my wife and I managed to reconcile, and in just over 3 months time we will hit the two-year mark of that reconciliation process.

Now, however, I find myself in a quandary. I've been having increasing levels of back pain over the past 2 to 3 months, ultimately leading me to undergo a surgery (microdiscectomy) a week ago which, rightly or wrongly, I had come to believe would be relatively "minor" as such things go with a relatively short recovery time. Long story short, the surgery appears to be a failure, having made things worse, not better. (More pain, more numbness and tingling, and definite continued nerve impingement). Additionally, of course, I am now even more restricted because of a) the surgical wound and b) the fact that i now have an unhealed hole in my disc from the surgery that must be protected by not bending, twisting, or lifting anything over 10 pounds. So, I am borderline "worthless" right now... No sex, no helping with chores (touch and acts of service my W's two primary LLs ) no driving, and none of the other fun, physically active things I like to do. Best case scenario is that this is just somehow very short-term and I make a miraculous turnaround next week. Likely case to worst case, however, based on my prelim research is some level of additional surgical intervention which would be significantly more intrusive and keep me on the shelf much longer than this was supposed to have. (I see doctor on Tuesday and will know more).

Either way, as of right now, it looks like I'm going to be significantly physically limited for a period of weeks at least. Given that my physical transformation was such a significant component of my GAL-ing and 180-ing during DB-ing, this makes me nervous... As does the thought of my W again having to face a physically failing hoosjim... which was, as i noted, a significant component of the bad old days.

So I'm looking for input here, both practical from those who have experienced similar disability, as well as relationship-based, so that I don't fall into much of a rut, or get in a place where my health is impacting me too much, and/or impacting my MR.

Any thoughts on what I can do to: stay useful? Stay active? Stay romantically attached with wife? Not be a bummed out Grinch because I'm in pain, useless, and unromantic? Otherwise keep my MR "fun" during the time I am going through this?

I'm a different person now than I used to be, and much much much more well equipped emotionally and mentally to deal with this sort of crisis... But the specter of the past does concern me.

Prayer I got covered, but I certainly wouldn't mind others throwing in for me in that regard.

All thoughts welcome

[Ginger1]

In sickness and in health.

Sometimes it’s not fun.

Sometimes one spouse has to give 80% while the other can only give 20%.

This is an acute phase. You need to focus on your healing. And focusing on your healing shows her that you want to go back to being the active loving husband you were. If just sink into a depression, that probably where things will go south.

Right now it’s ok if you can’t go out and have fun and have sex and all of that. You shouldn’t worry about her straying because of that right after surgery.

So first, stop thinking you are a bummed out useless grinch. And instead think of yourself as a strong guy on the road to healing.

If you can pay the bills, continue to do that. Take the time to talk to her, joke around, talk about her day. Rub her feet. Kiss her. Compliment her.

But your focus should be on getting better. And I hope you do begin to feel some relief soon.

[Core]

Hey Hoosjim,

Back issues are no joke. I'm sorry to hear you're facing the problem and the pain.

A few thoughts:
Touch LL: You can still kiss; can tell her she looks beautiful and to come to you for a kiss.
Sit close at meals, hold her hand when you can.

Acts of service LL: If you can financially afford it, you can have flowers delivered to her. Order in meals. Work on bills/budget. Organize a trip for her to a spa.

You can show your perseverance by continuing self help books while your incapacitated and healing. Organize physical therapy once you are allowed by your doc to show W you're not waiting around. If you have a job where you can enhance skills from home via books or online material, now is a good time.

My mother had back issues and rarely allowed the time to heal, causing more issues in the end. Take the time to heal on this one.

I'll pray for you.

[ovrrnbw]

Jim, life isn't always ice cream and blowjays but we can certainly make the best of it.

Attitude is everything, pick a winning mindset every day.

"A mind needs books like a sword needs a whetstone, so hone your mind this time."

Best of luck my friend.

[job]

I have merged your two threads together. Please stick to one thread until you've reached 100 postings/replies. You can changed your subject line at any time within a thread.

[SteveLW]

Tough doesn't have to be sex. Holding hands. Stroking here face. Playing with her hair. All count.

And acts of service doesn't mean you have to do heavy lifting. Ordering food delivery, paying the bills, calling and making arrangements all count.

Don't look at what you can't do. Look at what you can do.

[hoosjim]

Hey y'all-- just thought I'd give a quick update, since the last post was a bit downbeat, and also a top-level "thank you" to everyone here.

I am now five weeks, going on six, post spinal surgery. I start PT on Monday. Been a rocky recovery so far—got worse before I started getting better. Finally managed to get through gatekeepers to talk to my surgeon, who told me the nerve was pretty badly traumatized—basically flattened by the disc bulge, and then, due to size of bulge, they had to retract the nerve to get it all out, further traumatizing it. Said nerves take a long time to heal fully and can feel worse before better. Also ordered a follow up MRI to be sure, and it was clean, no re-herniation of disc or other nerve impingement <whew!>

As I have recovered, I have found ways to keep as active as possible, be somewhat useful around the house, and remain as intimate as possible with my W. Made it a point to continue to find ways to touch and be close to her, and, wouldn’t you know, there are even ways to be “intimate” that don’t twist/bend/stress the lower spine For anyone ever facing a similar situation—illness, injury, etc—I cannot overemphasize the importance of trying to find ways to stay intimate… touch each other.. even if actual intercourse is out of the question. It really does reinforce the emotional bond. We had gone about four weeks “without”, and then one night when I was feeling better, I initiated—Earlier in day sent her flowers at her office just because she’d been having a hard time there, arranged with her coworkers for her to get off early and kidnapped her and took her out to new restaurant she’d been wanting to go to. Really nice evening and at the end of it we just “found a way.” <grin> Managed to not reinjure myself in the process, too! At any rate, the length of time <apart> HAD caused us to drift… even if just a little. Afterwards and since then she had been MUCH more demonstrative, cuddly, etc., and I have felt closer and been more demonstrative with her. It’s weird how the normal, daily, routine, can just cause you to “drift” away from each other a bit, and I am sure my injury exacerbated this (Don’t get me wrong, we were nowhere NEAR back to the “bad old days”… just a little less intimacy/closeness than their had been) I am confident in saying that the physical relationship helped strengthen that closeness and bond… So find a way to stay as intimate as possible, even through health problems, and, if you can’t, at least talk through it with each other...maybe you will end up "finding a way", too!

For her part, during my recovery, she has been extremely understanding and helpful… further signs that her recovery and our reconciliation is a strong one… in the old days when I was sick (And if you'll recall I was seriously and chronically ill for a while) she was dismissive, irritated, even resentful. Through this current injury, though, she has been an amazing spouse and source of comfort and support. Although, the shades of the past are not completely gone…. Last week in church she started crying. I put my arm around her and stroked her back and hair, but didn’t ask her "why" while we were in the service. Afterwards, though, I asked her what was up, and she said “Oh, just everything… the boys going back to school, me being so thankful for them and you and us and then feeling so sad that I did what I did and put us through all of that”… And I understand where she’s coming from. What happened between us was extremely painful, for me at the time and for her in the years leading up and then subsequently when she “came back” to the MR. Not sure when the scars will completely heal, if they ever do. I still get flashes of resentment and pain from time to time, particularly when triggers arise, though they seem to be slowly abating with time. Talked with the MC a few weeks back and she said it’s normal… and to talk to each other if it starts to affect our relationship.

Anyway, just wanted to update… feeling better and looking forward to starting rehab, hitting the gym, and resuming full activity. MR still rolling along and as good as its ever been… thanks in large part to the blessing of finding this place. I can’t imagine where I’d be if the good Lord hadn’t led me here. Pretty sure there is no way I would have turned my life around so quickly, and no way I would have ended up reconciling without DB-ing and the support of all you kind folks here (Not to minimize the importance of my MC, another “but for the grace of God I’d never have found her—she was and is the absolute BEST) but here and DB-ing, and my IRL friends and y’all were all crucial parts in the puzzle. I really appreciate the care and thoughtfulness and time that you folks put in here. Thanks for everything!!! (And especially for y'alls patience with my very long posts!)

[SteveLW]

Get better hoos! Love having you on the forum. With your experience you bring a valuable perspective.

[neffer]

Good to read that HJ. Time heals everything, you need to be on the up wave to reach that. First working on yourself. Happines comes from inside.

Both of your kids are out at university, right? So, how are you both coping with the empty nest syndrome? It seems you are having a good transition there.

Thanks for the update!

[AnotherStander]

Hey Jim, sorry to hear about the surgery but glad to hear the recover is going well! Great advice on staying connected with your spouse even when things are not going perfect in life! Good job keeping the work going on that healthy M

[hoosjim]

Both of your kids are out at university, right? So, how are you both coping with the empty nest syndrome? It seems you are having a good transition there.

It's funny with "Empty Nest Syndrome". The specter of both our boys heading off to college (Yes, they are both still enrolled) was initially one of the Big Bad Events that was scaring my W and contributing to her WW-ness. She discussed this at length in some of our counselling sessions. She saw that coming up and kept thinking "Well, after that, it will just be me and him here by ourselves... EEEK!" And, for my part, I have to admit I wasn't sure how i was going to handle it. She, obviously, initially handled it by succumbing to the GGW lifestyle and going wayward... losing weight/working out, buying and wearing new, revealing clothes, going out and staying out late with single friends, eventually starting her A with OM, etc etc. Funny thing is, as soon as we had passed through our crisis phase and started reconciling (almost exactly at the end of my younger son's senior year in HS), "empty nest" became a Godsend. It came along at JUST the right time to support our reconciliation efforts and give us many, many opportunities to get out and have fun on our own. Having our boys home had been probably somewhat more "tying down" than the average family, as our younger son has a serious case of Tourette's Syndrome --think high-functioning autism or aspergers, creating some issues and requiring us to be somewhat more engaged on the margin than the average parent-- and both played varsity sports, which consumed alot of our time (especially football). Don't get me wrong, we both love our kids and love spending time with them and going to their games and being involved, etc, but once we started reconciling we couldn't wait to get out, go out, have fun on our own, travel and get a hotel room and have it be JUST US in the room! So much so that we jumped the gun by a month or so and took a trip for a week leaving them both home during that Summer. Of course, there was a big party in our absence and they both got in major hot water and lessons were learned, but it was worth it. In sum, we have PLENTY to do. Lots of outdoor opportunities near us, we both like live music and like to frequent the local (And not so local) establishments... it's great! And since both boys are within a couple of hours drive, we still see just enough of them that we don't get to missing them too bad.

So, I guess, in a nutshell, "empty nest" and the specter thereof was both "bad" and "good" for us... served as a trigger for my W's WWism (some would prolly say MLC) but, ultimately, came along at the perfect time to turbocharge our reconciliation.

[Core]

Hey HJ, still around? How are you faring?