Positive signs - DivorceBusting.com

I'm a returning contributor and a bit of a fraud. My marriage broke up 18 years ago( very painful ) and I got into a new relationship 16 years ago( not actually married ). History has repeated and she has just left me for another guy only this time I'm fighting like crazy to get her back. I'm boring my friends with my constant obsession so I thought I might get support from more like-minded people on this site. My insights may be useful to fellow sufferers too.

Some background: our relationship became stale for a number of reasons:-

Subconciously because of the baggage I was carrying from my previous relationship I was not committing fully for fear of getting hurt again
We have been conflict avoiders so could not resolve our issues well
medical and other issues inhibited sex( we didn't talk this through )
We stopped trying

In summary we were good friends but she did not feel the love she craved( my fault ) and I felt I could no longer make her really happy. I was drinking too much and this radically affected my energy levels, awareness, ability to act and so many other things.( Advice to heavy drinkers - get this under control it can change your life for the better ).

After I stopped the booze she told me she was going out the following night on a date with an old friend whose marriage was on the rocks( she'd known about this for weeks but didn't tell me). I admitted that I didn't seem to make her happy, I wanted her to be happy and that the idea made sense. I thought I could not compete. A few days later I suggested we got together for a special last intimate occasion not really expecting her to agree. Wow - she agreed without question and we had a magnificent weekend. I now realised I could make her happy and I did not want to let her go. But she was committed. We were frequently intimate in the next 2 weeks and we started to talk more openly. I thought I had saved the situation but she decided she could not carry on with both of us and gave me the boot. He has been treating her like a princess and she says she is having the time of her life. He is well minted and has the benefit of a long acquaintance with her. But I know I'm under her skin.

I've worked hard on myself and she has noticed. Now for the signs that I see as positive. What do you experts( especially the women ) think about these:-

I wrote her a poem that explored her mind quite deeply and she got very angry
I apologised for upsetting her, we discussed it and she forgave me( she never disputed the content )
After the anger she wrote down her feelings in a notebook. She showed it to me and it was a list of the things I didn't do that he did.
She has shown interest in a date I went on.

I intend to go dark for a bit but we are still on good speaking terms. Any advice or insights would be appreciated.

I have posted Cadet's Welcome Posting below:

Welcome to the board

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htm

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!

Get out and Get a Life (GAL).

DETACH.

Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.

Have NO EXPECTATIONS.

Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:

I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072

Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414

Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566

Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554

Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619

Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon

Me-65, D32,S31

This is tough to respond to...

You want her to be committed to you, but after 16 years neither of you wanted to commit to more than dating?

You need time to heal from this and possibly the prior R. Take that time for yourself. Don't lie down like a whipped dog and take her crap.

The best thing you can do to get her back is to go no contact for 20 or 30 days, maybe longer. If she changes her mind you'll know bc she'll be trying hard to get you back.

Thankyou ovrrnbw,

I'm in no contact now. We were a bit closer than you imply - intending to set up home. It was more my fault than hers because of my baggage but you make a good point. As regards taking her crap I don't believe she is doing it deliberately - she is confused and I think she needs no contact more than me. I've made huge strides without the booze and fully accept my faults in the saga. She may be chronically hurt and in a rebound. She has said if he were not in the picture we would be trying again. I have tried to convey that I accept the breakup but I still want to build a new relationship with her. I'm sure she knows I'm serious. Since I posted I realised that her notes were a feeble attempt to justify her decision, not sure who to???

When I've seen her she has been tactile but not very intimate.

Do you really think no contact is powerful enough to change her mind?

No contact is statistically the best shot you have. I'd check out exgfrecovery on the search engines.

It goes hand in hand with DB. In your case, what true reason do you have to contact her? Kids? House? Divorce papers? None of those right?

thanks again ovrrnbw, You are right about the need to contact. I've looked at the site and, like many others, it favours the no contact approach but it doesn't really explain why it works. Last night I was thinking about it and came up with some thoughts about my situation:-

I believe she is on a 3 day trip with OM. He is using up a pile of air miles that are due to expire. I know he had hoped to use them with his wife to rebuild their relationship. If I know her at all( and I do ) she will not be sleeping well, thinking about the mess she is in. Two people trying to convince themselves they are having a good time by spending money and taking photos when they would both rather be with someone else? Developing a real bond in this situation must be tough, surely ( and I don't believe he'll outperform me in the sack ).

She comes back Wednesday, I go away for a week Thursday so no contact will be the default. I could easily believe that she will be going through the emotional roller-coaster that I have been on for weeks. Is this the sort of reason it works? Anyone been on the receiving end who could comment? Am I just being ridiculously optimistic? I must admit I am trying really hard to see positives( working on me ).

FM, you guys aren't married, correct? I am always curious as to why people that are having issues with a GF don't take that as the answer to the question "does this relationship have a long-term chance?".

My advice? Cut bait, and meet some new women. Maybe there is someone else out there that you will be more compatible. My mom used to tell me related, to a longtime on-again, off-again relationship that went on for years: if its meant to be it will be.

Pull back. Go out and meet some new women. You aren't tied to this woman like you would be if she were your W.

Oh, and stop being so codependent. Your life will go on with OR without her.

Thanks Steve, I was expecting that from a lot of people on this site because I was here 17 years ago trying to save my marriage. Hence my allusion to fraud at the start. This breakup doesn't hurt as deeply as the last but it still hurts like hell because I have woken up to my true feelings at last. I've been with her for 16 years so the relationship has a long term chance. I am sort of dating someone with enormous common interests as part of my plan to reduce codependency but I'm under no illusions that I wouldn't be back with the missus like a shot given the opportunity. The date is not currently love material so I have no conflict of interest. Time will tell but if she comes back it will be a different relationship( and I may still play bridge with the date )

Hey, good for you. You aren't married and therefore are free to date!

One last question. With her for 16 years so you conclude "the relationship has a long term chance". Then why did you never marry her?

We are both divorcees. I thought the main reason to marry was stability for the children so I couldn't see the point. She wanted to get married quite early on but I said I wasn't up for it. If we didn't want to stay together I thought we should be free to split. I could say it backfired but the truth is that it was the OM that caused me to realise how I really felt. Without him we would still be in a rut and I would be numb. With him in the picture I am in great pain but aware of my emotions. If we get back together it will be a new beginning. She has said that she agrees with me about marriage now so I'm sort of easy either way if it's what she really needs.

Come you DBers any comments on the original post?

As for the original post, do you think this is enough pain to keep your eyes open and be the thing that really drives you to change? It sounds like you've begun, but sustaining those changes is the true challenge. No matter what happens with this woman you love and are wanting to get back, that is the most important thing you will do. Have you made a plan to keep the good going?

Hi FM,

First let me say that you have a nasty list of R issues there, in your case your GF isn't leaving because she's going through something, she's leaving because it was a crappy relationship. That makes it much tougher to get her back.

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[*]Subconsciously because of the baggage I was carrying from my previous relationship I was not committing fully for fear of getting hurt again.

[*]We have been conflict avoiders so could not resolve our issues well

[*]medical and other issues inhibited sex( we didn't talk this through )

[*]We stopped trying

I was drinking too much

These are all absolute relationship killers. Now OM has stepped into the picture treating her like you probably did early on and making her feel important and needed again. How do you combat that? By owning your issues and working on them. Stop the drinking. Lose weight if you need to. Seek out counseling to help you deal with your previous baggage. Step up your wardrobe. Clean up your life in every way possible. With time the "newness" of OM will probably wear off and when it does maybe she'll look at the new and improved you and want to give it a shot again. But even if she doesn't you will have regained your confidence and self-worth and will be ready to take on a newer, more healthy R.

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I've worked hard on myself and she has noticed. Now for the signs that I see as positive. What do you experts( especially the women ) think about these:-

[*]I wrote her a poem that explored her mind quite deeply and she got very angry
[*]I apologised for upsetting her, we discussed it and she forgave me( she never disputed the content )
[*]After the anger she wrote down her feelings in a notebook. She showed it to me and it was a list of the things I didn't do that he did.

You see these as positives? Why? No more poems, love notes, heartfelt texts, letters, etc. She's done and nothing you do along those lines will make a difference (as you can clearly see from her above reaction). The best thing you can do right now is TIME and SPACE. Leave her alone. It's what she wants.

Thank-you AS for this, a critical appraisal. Your first point is well made but while I have portrayed the crappiness in our R this happened after we had just enjoyed a 10 day holiday together. We Had a stunning 2 weeks after she dropped the bomb because I had woken up from my drunken stupor and realised what I wanted. I have smartened up my act and was fortunate enough to do it visibly before she left. I've lost 18 lb, I made her feel loved and we have spoken more intimately than ever. I've regained the energy I used to have to complete tasks in my life and shown an ability to meet some emotional needs that were unsatisfied. In summary we have enough in common to be good friends and I have demonstrated a commitment that was missing. The poem was my first ever. The notes were concise and clearly stated my commitment and new attitudes. I've generally avoided clinginess and dependency. I think I have achieved the cleanup of my act that you suggest and we are on the same page there.

So why do these seem positive to me?

I risked invading her head space which made her angry but she forgave me when we discussed it
The notes she wrote while angry were obviously for me and she pretended she didn't want me to see them although she brought them to my house and let me photocopy them.
She wouldn't care about my dating if she really thought she was moving on

Do you still see no positives?

Thanks ovrrnbw, the changes I have made have been a doddle. I'm totally content with them whatever happens with my R. I was an idiot. If she comes back I'll have the challenge of building a proper R and I relish the idea. If she doesn't I'll have to build it with someone else. I really hope she comes back.

Originally Posted by Family Man

Your first point is well made but while I have portrayed the crappiness in our R this happened after we had just enjoyed a 10 day holiday together. We Had a stunning 2 weeks after she dropped the bomb because I had woken up from my drunken stupor and realised what I wanted.

To her this is all "too little too late". She thinks her mind is made up and she's done for good. That's only a reflection of how she feels right now, her feelings may very well change with time. But for now she's quite sure she's done, and this is why we say don't temp check. So yes you are confused because you got BD'd and then had a good time with her, but that's actually pretty typical WAS (and yes I know she's not your spouse but this is the shorthand we use around here) behavior. She did it so she could say she "tried everything".

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I have smartened up my act and was fortunate enough to do it visibly before she left. I've lost 18 lb, I made her feel loved and we have spoken more intimately than ever. I've regained the energy I used to have to complete tasks in my life and shown an ability to meet some emotional needs that were unsatisfied. In summary we have enough in common to be good friends and I have demonstrated a commitment that was missing.

That's all great, but don't engage in pursuit behavior and don't expect a fast turnaround on her part. These things take time!

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The poem was my first ever. The notes were concise and clearly stated my commitment and new attitudes.

Our advice on poems, letters, songs, etc. is by all means write them. Write them to her! It can be therapeutic. But DON'T give them to her!

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I risked invading her head space which made her angry but she forgave me when we discussed it

I'm not saying it's a negative but I don't see it as a positive. More like "neutral". You said something that offended her, and now you've smoothed it over so that's good.

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The notes she wrote while angry were obviously for me and she pretended she didn't want me to see them although she brought them to my house and let me photocopy them.

So she gave you a laundry list of things she finds better about OM than you. And... you see that as a good thing? I'm all for optimism but I think it may be a bit misplaced here!

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She wouldn't care about my dating if she really thought she was moving on

My XW has a saying- "she doesn't want you but she doesn't want anyone else to have you either." That's where her head is right now. She wants to have her fling with OM and make a new life with him. But at the same time she wants you to wait in the wings in case it doesn't work out. You DO NOT want to be Plan B. Once you establish yourself as Plan B you are stuck there.

Thanks again AS, I like your analytical approach even if the conclusions are painful. As regards the first section I believe she jumped when she did because she knew she was close to changing her mind( but still too little too late ). I've been advised that "getting into her head" and understanding her are very attractive in a partner - hence the poem. Do you have a view on that? I think it was a direct hit at getting her to question her decision without judging her. She became quite calm and friendly after I assured her that I did it for her rather than to further my own ends.

The laundry list is laughed at by everyone I've talked to about it. Very thin and inaccurate at times - I thought she may be trying( and failing ) to convince herself. Has she relegated me to plan B or is she finding it difficult to lose face and leave OM? I've seen that sort of behaviour in her before.

She has made other moves that seem positive precursors to getting back but they may be just contingency plans to keep me as plan B( which I hadn't considered before you mentioned it ). Is Plan B discussed anywhere on the site?

Originally Posted by Family Man

She wanted to get married quite early on but I said I wasn't up for it. If we didn't want to stay together I thought we should be free to split. I could say it backfired

I wouldn't say it backfired, more like this became a self-fulfilling prophecy. She wanted to split....and was free to do so.

So Family Man, I see you shrugging your shoulders and saying: "If we get back together it will be a new beginning. She has said that she agrees with me about marriage now so I'm sort of easy either way if it's what she really needs."

I don't understand that. You've been around long enough to have firm beliefs in what YOU want. So if you get back together, are you willing to give her the long-term commitment that you have thus far been unwilling to give her?

Thanks Steve, yes I am absolutely up for the commitment to the best relationship either of us has ever known. As regards marriage I was against it because it was early in our R. Now we're 16 years in and I feel more committed than ever so although I don't need it, if she does it's no big deal with me. I don't think marriage should be used to keep us together - we should want to be together because it's such fun.

Whilst I would still appreciate input on the positive signs( especially from women ) the thought of being Plan B is playing on my mind. Any thoughts on this:
She is lady captain at the golf club and has organised an away weekend. We were down to share a room. In her angry notes she said she didn't want me to go. She was at my place the other day and she mentioned that we had to confirm the arrangements. I didn't want think about it at that time so I asked her to email the options. There were 2 rooms available - her double and a single. Another member( Ed ) and I both wanted to go. In the email she proposed 4 options in this order:

We still share, Ed has the single
I share with Ed she has the single
She shares with OM, Ed has the single
She shares with OM, I have the single

Before I saw the email she contacted OM( who is not a member of our club ) and he said he would not attend if it meant bumping a member.( so he wouldn't go ). As she was telling me this it dawned on both of us that she couldn't share with OM and a huge grin formed on her face when she realised option 1 would work. That is what she has now booked. What is she playing at? It seems an extraordinary length to go to to keep me as plan B. There was no pleading with him to come( how would that make him feel ). How should I play it on the day( not the golf )?

Originally Posted by Family Man

I've been advised that "getting into her head" and understanding her are very attractive in a partner - hence the poem. Do you have a view on that?

Well despite everything she is probably still very confused even though she doesn't want you to know that. It's like a storm is raging inside her head, so trying to get in there and figure things out is kind of an exercise in futility (although we all start out trying to do it).

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I think it was a direct hit at getting her to question her decision without judging her.

LBS's try all kind of tricks to get the WAS to "see the light" or "snap out of it". The thing is, she is on a journey and you can't speed her up along it. But you CAN slow her down! Just about anything you try to "open her eyes" is just going to slow her down. Time and space is the best you can do right now.

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The laundry list is laughed at by everyone I've talked to about it. Very thin and inaccurate at times - I thought she may be trying( and failing ) to convince herself.

Yes that's usually the case. They are trying to justify leaving the relationship in whatever way they can. And they DO absolutely believe their list is true. With time she'll start remembering there were good and even great things about the relationship, but right now she's focusing on the bad.

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She has made other moves that seem positive precursors to getting back but they may be just contingency plans to keep me as plan B( which I hadn't considered before you mentioned it ). Is Plan B discussed anywhere on the site?

We talk about it a lot on the forums but I don't remember if it's in DR or not. There's also the distance/ pursuit dynamic which Dobson talks about a lot in his book Love Must Be Tough (a good companion read to DR). You pursue, she distances. The harder you pursue the faster she runs away. Remove all pressure and she will quit running and even take a step towards you. You misinterpret and stat pursuing again and she runs away. Sometimes people here refer to it as like feeding a squirrel, you have to hold perfectly still and the squirrel will approach but if you make any movement at all it runs and the process starts all over again.

Thanks AS, By "understanding her" I don't mean her current confusion, I mean when we are in a normal relationship. I think I'm lucky that she hasn't been unpleasant and seems to enjoy my company - hence the alarm bells when you mentioned plan B. I've told her several times that I understand parts of her psyche better than she does and she's never denied it.

I tried to do everything I could to assure her of my sincerity before going dark - some of it was really enjoyable and therapeutic in developing me. Now I see the benefit in no contact - she has a lot to think about.

Did you read the previous post about the golf weekend? I'd really like your views on that.

Steve, you planted a seed on my mind that has just sprouted. I come from a family of divorcees and so I'm cynical about marriage, possibly anti-marriage. But the idea of us celebrating a committed reunion with some sort of formal acknowledgement is strangely attractive. Is there a wedding alternative or have I had a eureka moment?

Originally Posted by Family Man

I think I'm lucky that she hasn't been unpleasant and seems to enjoy my company - hence the alarm bells when you mentioned plan B.

My XW started out treating me mean like a lot of WAS's do. But early on she actually approached me about it, said she was doing it because she thought it would help me(!!!!) detach and want to divorce, but she could see it was hurting me instead so she was going to stop doing it. And she did, she was pretty kind and polite after that throughout the rest of our M and through S and (mostly) through D. So nice in fact that a few times I thought things must be turning around and I temp checked her. Every time I did I got promptly slapped back down to reality, she never stopped being full-steam-ahead on S and D. So it's great that she's enjoying your company, that is certainly better than the alternative of your WAS being a jerk as is often the case around here. But don't let that confuse you, it doesn't mean her position is softening, at least not right now.

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Did you read the previous post about the golf weekend? I'd really like your views on that.

I did but I didn't fully understand it, so I'll go back and look at it again:

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Before I saw the email she contacted OM( who is not a member of our club ) and he said he would not attend if it meant bumping a member.( so he wouldn't go ). As she was telling me this it dawned on both of us that she couldn't share with OM and a huge grin formed on her face when she realised option 1 would work. That is what she has now booked. What is she playing at? It seems an extraordinary length to go to to keep me as plan B. There was no pleading with him to come( how would that make him feel ).

So OM recused himself, and the two of you are going to share a room and a bed?

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How should I play it on the day( not the golf )?

I would be inclined to treat her like a "friendly neighbor", be kind and polite but no relationship talks at all. If she initiates an R talk then just listen and validate. If you're asking about being intimate, I would let her take the lead on that. Some WAS's want to keep having sex and others don't. Even if she does want to I wouldn't read anything to it.

Thanks AS, More food for thought. Of course for us the S has happened and there is no D. So the effect of S is that we no longer sleep together and we are no longer seen as an item. OM is carrying the baggage of a 48 year marriage and he has told her that he would be back with his wife like a shot if he could. His outstanding qualities, as described in her laundry list include

carrying the shopping
saying "after you"
being tidy in his dressing up
he wants her to help him choose his new sofas

To be fair he's a nice guy who has gone through the mill with his marriage but I don't see this competing with the new me she saw before she left. Of course the old me lacked a lot. She made the decision to leave before my transformation and she doesn't change her mind easily. Does this context affect your view at all?

Originally Posted by Family Man

Does this context affect your view at all?

Are you asking if I think you are the better option and she will therefore choose you? If that's what you're asking then no, WAS's nearly always "affair down". No one is really sure why, but I suspect it's because if they look downward on the "desirability scale" then they will find an OM who will do just about anything for them because they feel they don't "deserve" them. Often what they lacked in the R was nurturing, and a lesser OM will fall all over himself to give her what she's been lacking.

Thanks AS. Yes that was my question. And your reply is not what I wanted to hear, but, as always, a good point. It sounds like WASs are typically lacking in confidence. She has stated that if it were not for OM we would be working on the R. I'm sure I made her happy before she left so my best hope is that the A fizzles out. The lack of discussion over OM's attendance and the broad smile makes me wonder whether she is simply playing a game with me( I try to be optimistic ). Does anyone think that this is a time for a grand gesture - e.g. a honeymoon with or without a marriage. I wonder whether OM would even object under the circumstances since it's such a new relationship and I would make her very happy. Grand gestures don't seem to be recommended here but surely there must be times when it counts. Thoughts anybody?

F,

So your gf is cheating on you with an OM who is so wonderful that he says "after you" and needs help picking out sofas WTF???? and you want to propose? Do you think that will make you look strong or weak?

You have been watching too many romcoms my friend.

Interesting view LH. Actually she is not cheating on me - she has dumped me. And I can understand why given my past behaviour. It is since then that I have woken up to what I want and have made changes that would have avoided the issue. Now I want her back. She is in no doubt about my strength and nor am I and we are the only 2 people who matter in that regard. If I had followed Will Smith's advice "Be yourself, do your own thing and work hard" she'd still be with me.
My question is when is a grand gesture a good idea? I haven't seen them advocated anywhere on the site. And what other sort of gesture might be appropriate?

If anything she is cheating on OM and I haven't seen a romcom in years.

F,

My point is in more valid when you consider she dumped you. Proposing to someone who dumped you is more likely to be seen as pathetic that's why you don't see it around here.

The best gesture you can make is to give her the time and space to figure her $hit out. She has to choose to want to be with you for it to work out long term. Have you ever heard the term "rejection breeds obsession"?

How long have you made these supposed changes? It takes a really long time to make changes that last.

Originally Posted by Family Man

She has stated that if it were not for OM we would be working on the R.

Just throwing you a crumb to soften the blow on you.

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I'm sure I made her happy before she left so my best hope is that the A fizzles out.

As long as she knows you are Plan B then if that "affair" fizzles out there will be another and another. By the way is OM married? If not then it's not really an A so much as a new R? Anyway you've got to remove yourself from Plan B status. She's got to think she will lose you before she'll consider wanting you back. Have you ever seen Swingers? This scene is spot-on:

MIKE
And what if I don't want to give up on her?

ROB
You don't call.

MIKE
But you said I shouldn't call if I wanted to give up on her.

ROB
Right.

MIKE
So I don't call either way.

ROB
Right.

MIKE
So what's the difference?

ROB
The only difference between giving up and not giving up is if you take her back when she wants to come back. See, you can't do anything to make her want to come back. You can only do things to make her not want to come back.

MIKE
So the only difference is if I forget about her or pretend to forget about her.

ROB
Right.

MIKE
Well that [censored].

ROB
It [censored].

MIKE
So it's almost a retroactive decision. So I could, like, let's say, forget about her and when she comes back make like I just pretended to forget about her.

ROB
Right...or more likely the opposite.

MIKE
Right... Wait, what do you mean?

ROB
I mean first you'll pretend not to care, not call - whatever, and then, eventually, you really won't care.

MIKE
Unless she comes back first.

ROB
Ah, see, that's the thing. Somehow they don't come back until you really don't care anymore.

MIKE
There's the rub.

ROB
There's the rub.

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Does anyone think that this is a time for a grand gesture - e.g. a honeymoon with or without a marriage. I wonder whether OM would even object under the circumstances since it's such a new relationship and I would make her very happy. Grand gestures don't seem to be recommended here but surely there must be times when it counts. Thoughts anybody?

I think you need to quit trying to compete with OM and leave her to it. Just work on being the best you that you can be. Leave her be, go as dark as you can.

Originally Posted by LH19

F,

My point is in more valid when you consider she dumped you. Proposing to someone who dumped you is more likely to be seen as pathetic that's why you don't see it around here.

The best gesture you can make is to give her the time and space to figure her $hit out. She has to choose to want to be with you for it to work out long term. Have you ever heard the term "rejection breeds obsession"?

How long have you made these supposed changes? It takes a really long time to make changes that last.

^^^Wise words^^^

LH, I haven't proposed - I thought that the site was here to discuss possible actions like that. As regards people seeing me as pathetic - that's their problem. I am giving her space but there is a chance she may break the silence soon and I want to be prepared. If she contacts me I don't know how she will feel. If I compare myself to OM I reckon i'm a good bet now but we have a chequered history so I need to be able to handle the mixed emotions she may feel. I know what I want and I know she wants the same( we've been together for 16 years so you get a feeling ). But she needs to navigate from where she is to where we both want to be. If a gesture shortcuts that then I'm all for it - but no-one is commenting on that question,

As regards the changes I posted earlier that they have been a doddle. I cut down on the booze and recovered the old me. I was amazed and it feels great. If I'd done it years ago I wouldn't have been here. So I'm not worried about backsliding.

F,

I meant she would view it as pathetic. You don't propose to a woman who is in another relationship. Again that is something you would see on tv. It doesn't work in real life.

Look man I'm just being honest with you. The list you posted of the OMs great qualities are comical. That is why right now she doesn't think very highly of you. Can that change over time? Sure, but most likely many months more than likely years down the road.

As for her breaking the silence your best bet is to listen and validate.

I get the sense that you think your situation is different. It is not, that is why not one person on the board will tell you it's grand jesture time.

Originally Posted by Family Man

As regards people seeing me as pathetic - that's their problem.

Not "people", just her. I just related this in another thread, but back before I got married I dated a girl and broke up with her and she was sad, clingy and needy. Begged me to take her back. I found it repulsive. I later dated another girl and broke up with her and she moved right along like it didn't bother her a bit. That made me wonder if what I did was the right decision, and I started temp checking her. The point is that it is human nature to want what is difficult to get and to not really care about something/ someone that isn't a challenge. Right now she'll find your pursuit to be sad/ desperate/ pathetic. You seem to be having a lot of trouble grasping this concept!

Quote

I am giving her space but there is a chance she may break the silence soon and I want to be prepared.

If she breaks the silence it won't be for the reasons you're hoping. AT BEST it'll be to make sure you are still Plan B. With time who knows, but it's too soon right now.

AS,

I could use your advice in my thread.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander

Originally Posted by Family Man

As regards people seeing me as pathetic - that's their problem.

Not "people", just her. I just related this in another thread, but back before I got married I dated a girl and broke up with her and she was sad, clingy and needy. Begged me to take her back. I found it repulsive. I later dated another girl and broke up with her and she moved right along like it didn't bother her a bit. That made me wonder if what I did was the right decision, and I started temp checking her. The point is that it is human nature to want what is difficult to get and to not really care about something/ someone that isn't a challenge. Right now she'll find your pursuit to be sad/ desperate/ pathetic. You seem to be having a lot of trouble grasping this concept!

Quote

I am giving her space but there is a chance she may break the silence soon and I want to be prepared.

If she breaks the silence it won't be for the reasons you're hoping. AT BEST it'll be to make sure you are still Plan B. With time who knows, but it's too soon right now.

Thanks AS, LS. Let's be clear -

OM is married
I am not pursuing her I am in no contact mode. I am not desperate in her presence or outside it. I just know what I want
Her opinion of me is not as low as you seem to assume
I am seeking clarification on a number of issues because I don't want to make gross blunders
I suspect she may contact me during no contact and I want to respond well

From what I'm hearing the following principles always apply:

She's got to think she's lost me before she'll want me
It'll take too long to be worth it
My situation is as bad as everybody else's
shortcuts like grand gestures are always a bad idea
All optimism is misplaced

I will not wait for ever for her to return but I don't have the need to seek other options for the moment. I still see some hope that she will be back because I offer a good chance of happiness for both of us. In our long time together we have not lost all attraction. Recently( after I cut the booze ) we have communicated better than ever. She decided to Pursue OM before I cut the booze. That is why I still harbour some hope.

OM really isn't an OM though. He's just a WH. No contact mode is good IMO. GAL, and maybe one day she comes back. During NC, you don't reply at all unless she is about to beat the door down to get you back. Seriously, follow that plan from the one site.

Originally Posted by Family Man

From what I'm hearing the following principles always apply:
She's got to think she's lost me before she'll want me
It'll take too long to be worth it
My situation is as bad as everybody else's
shortcuts like grand gestures are always a bad idea
All optimism is misplaced

This is pretty good, though I'd say you should have tons of optimism in yourself!

She texted last night. 4 fairly meaningless texts in a minute. I didn't answer. I read the "going dark" post where it does not advocate complete silence. A short one from me this morning while she's still asleep. I don't want her to think I'm playing games - but I guess I am.

What were the texts?

Sorry to go dark, I've been on hols. The texts were:-

a clarification text about her whereabouts which she wrote several days before
An apology for not sending the previous text
a statement that she had wanted to phone and wish me a happy holiday but it was too late to call and a query about when I would leave the next day
She hopes I'm well xx

She did call me before I left and wished me a happy hol. And we confirmed an appointment for her to help me with a job at home today( Saturday ). While I was away I got a text hoping I was enjoying my holiday. I replied in the positive and described what I was doing( knowing she would like to do that ) and that I would see her Saturday( implying that she need not text again). I felt this was all fairly positive so when I got back I called her and we arranged to go out Friday pm with her granddaughter. She was fairly keen to have the assistance. On separating I managed rather more than the bare minimum of kissing and hugging without any recoil.

Today she came round as planned but said she only had an hour. We did the job together and I asked her when she could help again. She suggested possibly tomorrow morning and Tuesday. She received some texts that seemed to be hurrying her up( not sure from whom, OM? ). She seemed to stay to the last minute before rushing off. Again rather more than the bare minimum of kissing and hugging without any recoil.

I'm feeling pretty good about this especially if OM was pressuring. I think I am seeing more positive signs than the rest of you. Anyone agree?

I texted her a text early this morning offering her breakfast. She would have liked that but in the event she cried off from our provisional appointment but confirmed Tuesday. I'm guessing OM is pressuring a bit in ways she is not enjoying - or is it just more of my unjustified optimism?

Your best bet is to go dark. Completely dark and that means no offers for breakfast.

The way this works is (and I've done my homework) if she comes back it will be when you have moved on. This process takes around 9-16 months and it cannot be rushed. Please stop talking to her. It's your only shot.