Hi all,
I have been a silent reader for a while and would like to seek the advice from the experts on my next steps. My stitch had been more than a year and I'll like to summarize the background below:
Our family profile as per my signature. Wife is an educator. BD on me in July last year during our anniversary dinner with our marriage might be a the end of road. We've got to see a counselor ( Big Shock for me ) as suggested by her friend and this was actually not new. She's been feeling like that for a few years and etc.
Prior to that, I had been working late for an extended period of time so I thought my absence might have taken a toll on her. But then again it would not be physical exhaustion as we have a helper at home and she would not need to lift a finger on household chores or children as she had the support of my parents as well for the kids. Basically, Apart from working, her day ends with getting home, having dinner (which is all prepared) and then go about with her own things.
After the BD, I agreed with her that let's see a counselor. I also try to reduce the stay back at work and make more time for the family. Along the way, she also mentioned that her friend recommended us to take a couple trip to work it out which I agreed to and paid for the ticket n accommodation to the holiday, our delayed honeymoon so to speak. Abit of general background, she was from quite a well off family with enabling parents while mine is more of a background which everything I have to strive for. Thus I always strive and work hard to provide my family a better life while she has things, rather easy.
However prior to our appointment with the counselor, there were many sessions of argument between us. It seems like she is finding fault with everything and I took her bait, trying to reason and logic with her and when all her claims failed, I am the defensive one. And when it comes to the counselling session, she refuses to go initially. I tried to convince her to attend for the sake of the children which she did, but with a closed heart. At the session, she just keep stating it is over and even the counselor finds her very strong minded about her decision.
Follow that was our trip. When our trip was coming to an end, she started to tell me this is the wrap up trip, instead of the work it out trip. Returning from the trip, she keeps initiating the divorce arrangement talks with me. I had been reading up other help books and following their guide I told her, well if that is what you want, I consent but that is not what I want. I had thought that my wife was having an MLC but now understanding from here, I now understand she is wayward.
A week after we were back from the trip, I found out that actually all along even before BD, she had an EA with her student, which is a teenager. I was shocked and questioned her professionalism and sanity. But after that she just defended they are only friends and she enjoyed hanging out in their student group. They even planned for holiday which I consented initially without knowing it and later, I stopped it. When I stop her from going, she went hysterical and tried to negotiate, bargain with me to allow her to go for the trip but I held on to my stand. Till her behavior got so outta hand that I drag her to a psychiatrist that verified her to be normal and it's just marital issues we're having.
Her family had been involved all this while because I told her fine, if we are going to divorce, lets inform our families and move on. But she always refuse me to let her parents know and mentioned that she will handle them herself and let them know after we are divorced. Which I felt is kinda nuts as I would have owe them an explanation if that happens. They had been trying to help mending our relationship and were totally disappointed in how she was behaving.
She changed her phone password, became very shady and is away from the home always. Drinking, pubs and ktv and I was doing the super husband thing which Sandi mentioned in her reflections post. I got by through the bottom of every bottle, to stay strong for the kids and give them more attention. While she always talks to the kids about separation to try to get them used to it, (in her terms).
Well I had also been through the mistakes of spy/cry/beg/confronting the other boy zzzzz and the mash-mellow stuffs but gradually, I got kinda numb about it. And she claimed to her parents that she had cut contacts with the group of students since December as they had left school.
And since Dec, things had been fine for a while until she start mentioning divorce again. I told her that if she would like to proceed, it's fine. I drafted out the divorce agreement in march and handed it to her. And then I start to seek for my lawyer for my best interest. I told her that once proceedings is being initiated, I will bring the kids along with me and move out.
Thereafter, although she keep mentioning a couple of times that she is going to proceed with the divorce, she never really took the action. Till in May this year, she mentioned it again and said she is going to do it the next day. I said fine, then we will move out then. And the very next day after she got home, she told me she had submitted the documentations to her lawyer, but told them to hold first because she need to think about it still. And she will be moving out to bunk with her friend. I told her that she is most welcome to go and in fact, I was actually relieved that she is moving out.
Her intention to move out was to simulate post divorce living arrangements as I will be the primary care giver of the kids during weekday while she during weekends. And then she will come back during the weekends to accompany the kids. But the funny thing is, she will come back on random days and bring her laundry back for our helper to wash (yeah she's that pampered) and even though she said she will not be home to eat anymore and intend to reduce her joint expenses contribution, she eats anyway when she i back (not that I mind about food actually zzz). I just felt like she is acting like a teenage rebel.
Now couple of months has past. She came back mentioning that her friend intended to rent the room out to a potential tenant. Although her friend did offer her if she like to rent the room, she turned the offer down as she felt like giving the opportunity to another person (I would like to think that she had wore out her friend's patience and people is asking her to leave in a nicer way).
As her stay over her friend's place is expiring, she started her divorce crusade at me again. For 3 weeks, she told me every week she is going to proceed for the divorce. First week she said that I told her it's fine. Go ahead. Although this is not what I wanted, I value your opinion. Although I did told her that her actions along had been selfish and irresponsible to the kids and that is my view of her. Once she proceed, just inform me and I will activate my lawyer.
Then she told me I can just go ahead and plan what I want to do as she will be proceeding. I told her, just let me know after you had proceeded and I will activate my lawyer because once I do so, he will start his charging. I never hear from her about the divorce proceeding for the whole week from then. Then last week, she started again. Saying that we need to talk. I said ok. Then she said she acknowledged I had become a better person, this and that and blah blah blah. I said yes, I have become a better person for myself and the family. Then she went on with the divorce talk again and I told her.... you had been mentioning this for over a year. And my reply to you is always then same. Next, I pass her my lawyer's name card. I told her if you like to proceed, you can copy my lawyer. Then she turned aside and cried. I asked her anything else? She just shook her head while I went to prepare lunch for the family. Awhile later, she came out join us for lunch and acted as if nothing had happened.
Again, I heard nothing from her for the whole week and this week, she is at it again. Talked to me about the divorce, mentioned she had yet to proceed because she is worried that if we divorce, I wanted to move out immediately with the kids. Why don't I move out during the school holidays only so it will be easier for them to adjust. I told her well, that would be my decision isn't it? I will decide and do what is in the best interest for the children. She would not need to worry about that. And because recently I had been GAL and spending much on fashion and myself, she also asked me if I am seeing someone twice. I just gave her a simple, straight no.
Next up, she started to come asked me how much my lawyer is charging? She said divorce is going to cost unnecessary money and since my lawyer's fee is lower, why not we proceed the filing through my lawyer? I told her, my lawyer is there to represent my best interest. Divorce is what u seek for not what I want. So if you like to proceed, please seek your own legal assistance. Even if you look for my lawyer now, he will not take up your case as that would be conflict of interest. Then she backed off and said noted on that.
That was on monday and today is wednesday and I have heard nothing. She actually moved back in on Sunday and mentioned she is going to stay over at her friend's tonight again which I told her to just go ahead.
Above is the brief background of my story. Now I just GAL, and when she is back during the weekends, I will go out and leave everything to her. Previously I did slept in the guest room and gave her the master bedroom with the kids. But later I find it's rather inconvenient and move back to the master bedroom. When she was about to move back, she asked me if I would to move to my parents place when she is back? I replied to her why should I? I am going to stay in the master bedroom and on our bed. If she does not like it, she can sleep on the kids bed or find somewhere else.
I also stopped going over to her place for the weekly visit and meals as I feel that whenever the dynamics is getting back to the norm, she will crusade again. I also stopped our marriage counselling sometime back as I felt it's unproductive and it's more like an airing of complaint session.
Yeah sure my wife had a troubled childhood and problematic past. Thus initially I thought it was MLC and never came to the term wayward. When I mentioned MLC she also start to visit a therapist but she never shared any of the outcome of the sessions with me. And since she does not like to share it, I would not ask her. But whole on whole, she had become like a changed person while I am here standing for the family.
Recently, she had mellowed down somewhat perhaps her antics all these while would have worn her out. But I do not intend to go soft and still stick onto my stand of what I am doing now. GAL and be mentally strong. Just would like to see what advice the Vets would have for me here and if her divorce threats are empty?
T,
Why are you moving out? Seems that since you are the primary caregiver you should stay in the family home.
I would stop reiterating that D is not what you want. You stated it once and that's enough. Her threats are probably to make sure you're on the hook as plan b.
I have a hunch that the ea is still going on and she knows it's wrong but can't end it due to the addictive nature of an affair. If not she's probably looking for that high again.
Hi LH,
I'm moving out because we do not intend to keep the marital home. From where I am, Housing is quite expensive and for the size of the house which we are having now actually comes from our joint contribution. And if I am going to assume the house, I will have to buy over her share.
Anyway, the reason I am moving out is because I will be moving over to my parents place at the mean time as they are the primary care taker of my chaps while we work. And I am going to terminate the domestic helper's service back at home and dispose the house asap so I can get another property.
The taking of all these items away is also serving another slap across her face as I will end all financial contribution to current arrangement. I have yet done so because I am still utilizing some of it such as the family car and such but she would be more worst off without it than me.
My plan is stay at my parents place as they look after the kids during the day time and the other property also serves as additional passive income from renting it out. And by moving out, I am trying to get the kids to adapt and if they can't, I'll let them be back to the old house for couple of days and then move over again. They had been telling me that they like the house and don't wish to move out from it. I can keep the house if I want but that would be quite trying and not quite worth it in investment terms. And I will have to seek for separate care taking arrangement for my kids.
With regards of the EA, I do have some suspicions too. Perhaps it might have ended or she is on the look out for someone new. Or perhaps she got into a same gender affair with her friend that she is bunking with now? My wife was previously a divorcee and she was in a same gender relationship until she met me which I came by and gave her a family that she never thought she would have back then blah blah
The fog is deep with this one and she's not out of it. The way she is going at things which I like to joke about is, divorce is her KPI. On my end, I would not care much about her. I felt that she used to get reactions from me via her threats but overtime the effect is wearing off. Then she will dig at me via the children matter but that also cease to be effective for her. On the whole, she's like wolf's wife. Enabling parents, entitled, and yes the general consensus is I also spoil her after her parents that I am totally guilty of.
For now, I am focusing on myself. I am thinking if I should maintain status quo in maintaining my boundaries and continuing DB, or dish out something the next time her nonsense is here again. I just don't quite like that when I am not around, she will go and tell the kids that we are separating and how the arrangement will be like for them and next the kids will be coming to me and ask me about that. I can sense the emotional disturbance in my elder boy. When I told her to stop telling the kids such things, she retorts that she preparing them for it. She knows the kids my soft spot and previously when I said she was selfish, she claims that she is giving up the primary care taking of the kids to me because she knows my parents can take good care of them instead of entrusting them at day care centers. If she is to prove that she care for the kids, she will fight for their custody with me! Well thinking back, I should have told her take them then! haha.
Other than the kids being my primary concern, I am all good though I just feel kinda of like in a limbo for now.
Thus I as hesitating if to post or not to post as it's kinda tiring and sick to raise these old matters but well, I think I would appreciate some directions and new views as I've not been speaking to someone on these matters for a while.
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Boy sounds like there were a lot of red flags prior to you marrying her.
You mentioned your boundaries. What are they?
Tosmile, in general I think you are handling things well now. Obviously if you have been reading here for a while then you know what to do and not to do.
I think the most telling part of her recent behavior is this:
"Next up, she started to come asked me how much my lawyer is charging? She said divorce is going to cost unnecessary money and since my lawyer's fee is lower, why not we proceed the filing through my lawyer? I told her, my lawyer is there to represent my best interest. Divorce is what u seek for not what I want. So if you like to proceed, please seek your own legal assistance. Even if you look for my lawyer now, he will not take up your case as that would be conflict of interest. Then she backed off and said noted on that. "
This is typical lazy WW behavior. They want a D but they want to do no work on the D. So they try to make the LBH miserable so they'll file for D. Stand your ground until YOU are ready to end the madness. Your sitch reminds me a lot of another poster's sitch. I'll try to find his threads.
T,
Why are you moving out? Seems that since you are the primary caregiver you should stay in the family home.
I would stop reiterating that D is not what you want. You stated it once and that's enough. Her threats are probably to make sure you're on the hook as plan b.
I have a hunch that the ea is still going on and she knows it's wrong but can't end it due to the addictive nature of an affair. If not she's probably looking for that high again.
I second this bolded part. She's using it against you. She doesn't respect you.
She is doing crazy stuff too. Maybe read some of the older affair busting stuff. I see her crying out for attention and help over and over again, risking jail to carry on an affair with a minor? Or is this college? Either way it's highly questionable. Given that you use the word "holiday" I take it you're somewhere in the UK. That word always gives me a laugh, I find our differences (UK & USA) quite interesting and cool. But on the other hand, if you're in the UK, most of that society is going to see a teacher/student relationship as highly inappropriate, morally wrong, and potential civil and legal liability. It's scary.
I love how strong you've gotten in the last year. I can see your growth. You did great there. I did notice some controlling behavior as well on your part, but I don't know that you're still doing that. What do you want to happen with the MR ultimately?
Hi LH, Steve85 and ovrrnbw,
Thanks for your reply. I'm actually not in UK but in Asia.
LH,
Yeah there were much red flags and I was thinking I could be the person who helped her out of it hah. She ever been in a self-discovery course couple of years back and the trainer got them to do some sketching. From her artwork, the trainer mentioned she has some serious issues but she plainly brush it off back then. Now when it all spilled out, she start seeking for some professional help through art theraphy.
My boundaries to her are:
1. As long as we are in this marriage, I will not allow any third party in it. If she need her freedom and to resolve her issues, go ahead. But I will not take it lying down if there is a third party. (This I communicated to her.)
2. I stopped any intimacy with her because, I am not a man tool. (I told her this too)
3. I do not let her thrash talk me nor talk down at me. (This I carried out via my action)
4. I no longer allow her to convince me how inadequate I was as a husband to her needs and feel sad about it. Because I genuinely believes I tried to the best that I could in my role. It is perhaps our expectation does not match and our communication broke down. When we have such issue, it should be resolved through us and mediation, not through her actions.
Once BD, I started to sort out things and taking actions to work on the marriage and where I thought I fell short in then. Although she claimed she tried to work on it blah blah blah, I seen zero actions from her towards rebuilding the relationship. Instead it's all hell break loose, doing what she want to do and totally letting her emotions rule over everything.
Back then we were we seeing a counselor, the counselor also noted that she has an escapist character. Instead of facing and resolving problem, she either bury it or run away from it. I guess that is how she lead her life. She had a petty chaotic childhood with the parents frequently quarreling and the mum always telling them she is staying in the marriage because of them children. And mum was kinda abusive as well towards her when she's young due to her own frustrations over hardship in life and etc and W just bury everything and put up the front to be the ideal daughter to please the mum. Not to mentioned family was very controlling and imposed unreasonable restrictions on her. Thus, she had little commitment to rough it through issues I think. Because she keep saying that she does not want to be like her mum and stay for the children. She just want to do her own things. find her own place, live by herself and doing everything by herself. Thus when she moved out, I encouraged her so she can have a feel of how it is.
But then she was still very dependent on the home support. Also because after the rough childhood when the family is doing better, the parents tried to make it up to them siblings and pampered them like princes and princess. So basically she had a life of a golden spoon from her teenage years onwards, but never really address those matters in her earlier years.
But I feel she could totally let go of everything because when the kids are sick, she would not even pop by to check on them even though she's just less than 30 mins drive away. She would always claim that the kids matter to her a lot but I don't really see it via her actions. Thus, I am particularly concern about the Children well being if they are with her.
5. I would not let her guilt trip me on how I am paying attention to myself or doing the things I like. Yes one of the issue was she mentioned I was on the phone too much and phone gaming. Perhaps it was much back then but I don't think I should give it up completely as long as I don't overly indulge in it.
Steve85,
Yes I agree she is lazy. She never had to worry about anything as I had all taken care of for her. I had always been the planner in our relationship and life and I am a plan A,B,C guy, always coming up with contingencies. At first when she mentioned about divorce, I was the one combing through all the information, law and such. While for her, she thought that divorce is just signing on the paper and a ray of golden light will shine on her then start sh!tting rainbow. Initially during the shocked stage, I was still concerned and keep prompting her of what are her plans post divorce? had she considered about her living arrangements, her expenses, this and that? Till I chided her that look, you are the one who wanted a divorce and it seems that I became more knowledgeable in it that you.
Till I can't be bother about considering for her anymore and just map out what I have to do at my end eventually when that happens and how to best settle the kids. I can say that till date, she still has no clue what she's in for. Likewise when she moved out, she took the family car with her, without considering that it is meant for ferrying the kids to school. And when she did that, she was still expecting me to transfer the parking arrangement for her and help her find which is the most convenient parking lots. I told her you had to sort that out yourself! For god sake.
As like mentioned by my lawyer when I gave him a short summary of my sitch, he straight away mentioned she's spoilt. Thus to me, I see her the deadly cocktail of MLC, Wayward and being Spoilt. Which I have a hand in spoiling her too.
ovrrnbw,
No matter where we are, the kind of EA that she had is intolerable. It goes against the fundamental value of moral and sorts, not to mention her role as a mentor to the kid. She could be the mum of that kid. That's why I told her if she knows wth she was doing and what she's putting at stake? I would have been more accepting it was some other better or established guy but, her student? There was a precedence of such being exposed and it was her colleague. Then she was so sad that it happened to her colleague and exclaiming what the hell was she doing. But then nothing surprising, what they once against they are now for it.
She said she enjoyed hanging out with them as she would feel very carefree and without a worry in the world. Trying to catch up on her lost youth, dressing young, getting a tattoo and behaving like what teenagers will do.
Noted on the bold part which LH and you highlighted. I agree that she totally has no respect for me now. It eroded away into resentment and hatred. and as what Sandi mentioned, there would not be love without respect which is very true. I also faced alot of projections and blame shifting. Along with the re-writing of history and, accusations I would say? haha
If you ask me where I am thinking for this marriage to head to.... This is how I feel for now. I actually don't mind her taking time to go and do what she want in life and resolves whichever issues she has. But I will not tolerate if she does anything to dishonor the marriage.
In the process of DB, I try to set the feeling and love for her aside and focus more on my emotional well being first. She is a family member to me, and the mother of my children. Actually she was such an angel back then thus I had rained that much of attention on her. But now she had become who she is, I had to pull back to protect myself. Frankly, I do hope that she would walk through that fog and come to, then start piecing things together. Otherwise, I have to be strong and be the light for our kids. Because as the couple, we have the choice. But the kids, they don't. I just felt very apologetic towards them that they had to go through this.
One thing I know is I want to get back the respect first. Because I know that is required for us to get back together. And even if we don't and I don't have that back, she'll likely give me much [censored] even if we separate.
Abit of update on my situation.
W moved back and we sleep in the same room though she took the kid's bed while the kids sleep with me.
However ever since she moving back and when we are on the way to work (alone in the car after dropping the kids off), she would raise about the Divorce. This happens once a week for about a month. Happens again this morning. However, I headed the advice here and stop saying that: " she can proceed this is what she wants but not what I wanted". I simply acknowledged it and said ok.
Earlier, she was talking about the high expenditure from our joint family account and I explained to her those where the requirement to keep the family running and I had always been the one overseeing it. After that, she brought the topic to the divorce again. She repeated on the issue of cost of lawyers for both side if she is going to engage for her own lawyer and I get mine. Then she suggest again that why not everything goes through my lawyer and then she will not engage a lawyer and just read through the documentation my lawyer draft and go through the divorce. Her stance, is to save cost.
I told her that sounds funny to me. Why should my Lawyer be the one drafting out these? I engage my lawyer to represent me and to provide me sound advice when I face the situation of divorce, not to draft the documents for divorce. Then she said her lawyer's fees are high. In which, I replied she can just go google and there are a lot of Lawyers that's offering rates even cheaper then my lawyer online. Then she replied in that case, ok.
After that, she went on and ask if I am going over to her parent's place for dinner during the weekend and as there's a stretch of public holiday coming up, how the arrangement of the kids would be. I told her that with regards to her parent's place, I have to see if I have any other appointments. And for the holidays, basically I have programs everyday. So I would likely be available only for 1 day to be around.
But since she came back, she had also mellowed down much and lesser of her previous emotional mood swings and verbal abuses. Thou still some projection and blame shifting, generally it had reduced. I wonder how serious she is about the Divorce now as it's like a repetitive conversation that she always bring up once we are alone and once weekly that I could already predict what she is going to say. Towards my family members, she's behaving the same towards them though maybe still avoiding family events which I never force her to attend as well. when she asked me if it's necessary for her to be there? I always told her up to you if you would like to be there.
For the Vets, what do you'll think of this weekly thing? Temperature testing? or just being plain lazy and still waiting to be served?
I don't know if Sandiz might read this thread and provide some opinions too?
T,
Doubt it's temp checking more than likely being lazy. I'm wondering why the two of you are alone in the car? Can't you take separate cars? I'm also wondering why you are still attending each other's family functions? Will you continue that when your D?
I told her that sounds funny to me. Why should my Lawyer be the one drafting out these? I engage my lawyer to represent me and to provide me sound advice when I face the situation of divorce, not to draft the documents for divorce. Then she said her lawyer's fees are high. In which, I replied she can just go google and there are a lot of Lawyers that's offering rates even cheaper then my lawyer online. Then she replied in that case, ok.
That's a great response, well done!
For the Vets, what do you'll think of this weekly thing? Temperature testing? or just being plain lazy and still waiting to be served?
She wants a divorce but she doesn't want to do the work. First of all, it's just too much responsibility and WAS's don't want responsibility, they want Easy Street. Second, she wants to be able to "save face" with others by telling them that YOU were the one that divorced HER. If you keep doing what you're doing and leave her to do the D work then she may very well never bother. It happens a lot.
Abit of update on my situation.
W moved back and we sleep in the same room though she took the kid's bed while the kids sleep with me.
However ever since she moving back and when we are on the way to work (alone in the car after dropping the kids off), she would raise about the Divorce. This happens once a week for about a month. Happens again this morning. However, I headed the advice here and stop saying that: " she can proceed this is what she wants but not what I wanted". I simply acknowledged it and said ok.
Earlier, she was talking about the high expenditure from our joint family account and I explained to her those where the requirement to keep the family running and I had always been the one overseeing it. After that, she brought the topic to the divorce again. She repeated on the issue of cost of lawyers for both side if she is going to engage for her own lawyer and I get mine. Then she suggest again that why not everything goes through my lawyer and then she will not engage a lawyer and just read through the documentation my lawyer draft and go through the divorce. Her stance, is to save cost.
I told her that sounds funny to me. Why should my Lawyer be the one drafting out these? I engage my lawyer to represent me and to provide me sound advice when I face the situation of divorce, not to draft the documents for divorce. Then she said her lawyer's fees are high. In which, I replied she can just go google and there are a lot of Lawyers that's offering rates even cheaper then my lawyer online. Then she replied in that case, ok.
After that, she went on and ask if I am going over to her parent's place for dinner during the weekend and as there's a stretch of public holiday coming up, how the arrangement of the kids would be. I told her that with regards to her parent's place, I have to see if I have any other appointments. And for the holidays, basically I have programs everyday. So I would likely be available only for 1 day to be around.
But since she came back, she had also mellowed down much and lesser of her previous emotional mood swings and verbal abuses. Thou still some projection and blame shifting, generally it had reduced. I wonder how serious she is about the Divorce now as it's like a repetitive conversation that she always bring up once we are alone and once weekly that I could already predict what she is going to say. Towards my family members, she's behaving the same towards them though maybe still avoiding family events which I never force her to attend as well. when she asked me if it's necessary for her to be there? I always told her up to you if you would like to be there.
For the Vets, what do you'll think of this weekly thing? Temperature testing? or just being plain lazy and still waiting to be served?
I don't know if Sandiz might read this thread and provide some opinions too?
You have a WW and WWs are the laziest creatures this side of a sloth. I am concerned and need to give you one 2x4:
"I told her that sounds funny to me. Why should my Lawyer be the one drafting out these? I engage my lawyer to represent me and to provide me sound advice when I face the situation of divorce, not to draft the documents for divorce. Then she said her lawyer's fees are high. In which, I replied she can just go google and there are a lot of Lawyers that's offering rates even cheaper then my lawyer online. Then she replied in that case, ok. "
Stop being so wordy.
"My lawyer represents me, and since I am not the one pushing for D I will not agree to use him to file D papers."
Her: "But my lawyer fees are so high!"
"I understand that you feel that your lawyer's fees for filing are too high."
Her: "Why aren't you helping fix this?"
"I am sorry you feel I am not helping. That must be frustrating."
Her: "Why are you being difficult?"
"I can understand how you feel I am being difficult, that is not my intent."
Make your case: "My lawyer is for me."
Then listen and validate. Have you read the validation thread?
Oh, and STOP SOLVING HER PROBLEMS FOR HER.
"In which, I replied she can just go google and there are a lot of Lawyers that's offering rates even cheaper then my lawyer online."
Don't do this!!! This stuff is for her to figure out. Just like the parking. And even in that case, don't say it, just leave it to her.
"Sorry, I am too busy to take care of the parking arrangements."
Then listen and validate.
Just validate when she says it will be expensive, or hard, or whatever. Do not figure out the divorce for her. She is an adult and you are not her assistant. I'd stop sharing rides if possible too.
She keeps bringing up the divorce b/c she isn't sure. If she was sure she'd have taken action. Don't let emotion (fear in this case) guide you.
Just validate when she says it will be expensive, or hard, or whatever. Do not figure out the divorce for her. She is an adult and you are not her assistant. I'd stop sharing rides if possible too.
She keeps bringing up the divorce b/c she isn't sure. If she was sure she'd have taken action. Don't let emotion (fear in this case) guide you.
THIS^^^
She's also using to try and manipulate you. That is why detachment is a must!
Guys,
Thanks for the insight.
LH,
I don’t think I will still be attending anymore of the family functions once the divorce is through. My thoughts are for now, the invitation from her parents had been extended to me and I am practising the only going if I felt like going and not for any other thing else.
We are sharing the ride because we drop off the kids together and by that time if I am to take public transport, I would be late. We only have one family car and as I also contribute to it, I felt I do have the right to use it and the she dropping me off after the kids had been a routine.
Noted on the validation part. I was kinda lost as till current state, I’m not too sure already what to reply her as it’s repetitive and getting sickening. Just thinking if she’s a totally gone case or there is still possibility for her to get out of the fog down the toad and if I am to still stand, what should be my behaviour. Same? Or aggressively distance myself further?
I am not sure you need to be aggressive about any of it. Just GAL, detach, and work on your 180s. Give her the time and space she asked for.
Read cadet's links again. A lot of those tell you what your demeanor and behavior would be. I kept a copy of sandi's rules with me (electronic on my phone) at all times!
Hi Steve85,
Yep had been giving her space till I’m treating her like almost non existent. Never dabble into her life and choices and just let her be.
Would carry on to focus in GAL n 180s. Sometimes, she initiated certain pleasant conversations with me and I just replied cordially. Other times I just keep short. And sometimes she would be nice and check if I would like lunch or what and she can cook my share or offer to help me with take away which I just decide according to my mood. Right way to go?
Updates,
This morning while on the way to drop me off, W told me that she had proceeded to file and it will be attention to my Lawyer. I said ok. Then I asked her when did she file it? She mentioned last week. Then I said I will inform my lawyer and she said it will not be that soon anyway will at least take about 4 - 5 months. I told her well I'll just give my lawyer the heads up and anything will be through him. Then after I got off, I notice she's been keep looking at me as if thinking how I would react but I just went on my business as usual.
Over the weekend, she was behaving fine and raise some conversations with me. Next, she mentioned the above this morning (as if to fulfill the weekly KPI)
Anyway, I guess I should just continue what I am doing? Or there are any specific actions that I should take now?
There are certain days which you would feel the low and today is one such for me.
Down with a flu while dragging myself to work due to multiple important meetings for the day. Did not sleep well the night before as Son was having nightmares and woke me up couple of times. Coping with a knee injury too hence Jogging maybe out for a while. On the whole I'm sitting in front of my work desk stoning away till the next meeting.
Counting back if all is true that she had proceeded with the filing the previous week, I should be receiving the notification from my Lawyer this week as I told her to direct the application to my Lawyer. Upon that, I will commence my plan to pack up with my kids and move out of the current place over to my parents as per initially decided and terminate whichever joint support I am contributing for this home.
This morning on the way to work, the trip was silent with no conversation shared. There was the urge to tell her I will commence the above immediately but I held back. I don't want her to felt that she could get a reaction from me by tell me that she had proceeded last week. She always mentioned that we can be good friends even after we separated and etc. But I have something for her. The next time she mention that, I will tell her that once the process is done, I will see you no more than the mother of my children. Have you ever seen me still being good friends with my exes?
Seeking some support and advice.
Thought I detached much but still way to go. Since my last post, these 2 weeks had been fine and she starts to get into small but short general conversation. Things seems to be slightly positive but I also do not pin too much hope on it. And when I stopped jogging as I injured my ligament, she even remind and suggest me to go see a sports injury doctor one particular day when I was away from work.
Couple of days back, we were on the way to work and alone again. The trip started fine after dropping off the younger kid and we were talking about various topics and I got abit conversational and showing more interest in the chat. Suddenly out of the blue, she just said oh yeah that her lawyer called her the day before and asking if we are to state down the figure of the joint maintenance fee for the children in the divorce agreement? I told her yeah, why not? She then say the lawyer advice if we do not state down, there would be more room and flexibility for adjustment. I told if there are future changes it would be up to negotiation but list it down for now. Then she said ok and tried to switch to another topic.
After a while, I told her, well once my lawyer received the notification, I will move out with the kids per previously mentioned and cease all existing living arrangement. The common financial contribution, the live in domestic helper's service and various other. She then asked me what's the rush? I could wait till year end school holiday for the kids to do that and the divorce will only be official next year.
I told her well since we are going for it, what for drag and delay it? What is to come will come and just make it swift and decisive. Thereafter, the trip went silent and till I got off the car, I just said good bye to her. Sometimes, I am suspecting if she is deliberately delaying the divorce till next year because by then, she will be relocating to somewhere near our town to work and she can actually forgo the car then. Now it is because she needs the family car and I am co-sharing it thus she is dragging it? But if this wild assumption of mine is true, then well wow, it's kinda speechless for a reason to delay divorce with.
I thought I could be fine and taking it as normal but whenever she raise about the divorce topic, even though I don't show it to her, it still thugs my heart. It still have some effect on me through periods though not totally removing my functions previously. And on the other note, I have this metaphor like she is trying to drive the knife slowly into me over periodic intervals especially when things are fine for a while then she will stab a bit... then leave it there till the next time when she will push the knife in another inch again.
Any advice from the vets?
If I'm reading this correctly, you think she is delaying for her own good, so that she can use the car until she can move and not need it anymore? In that scenario, I get why you wouldn't want to continue this arrangement and why you'd rather end it now and not have her taking advantage of you. But you don't know right? And you can't know either, right? So give it a big ole woosa and let it go. If you want to divorce her do it. If you don't want to divorce her, don't do it. The car is not the issue, the idea of her leaving you and taking advantage of you while doing so is.
As far as driving the knife, yes that's normal IMO. It's usually done when the LBS gets his or her hopes up.
Ovrrnbw,
Thanks for bringing me back to the issue which I think I was distracted from. You are right on the part about the crux being her wanting to leave and not the other stuffs. I am a bit confused by her behaviour recently as well thus perhaps subconsciously grew hope and allowed the stabbing.
Example previously I had told her I will stop going over her place for the weekly dinner with her family. Because within me, I feel that if I go over, she would react a day or two later with some stabbing when things seems to somewhat resume to family quo. But not every week, she will ask me if I will be going over even though I told her I would not be anymore. I am not sure if it was my mother in law asking her to invite me weekly but we’ll she could just tell her mum no I am no longer coming?
And recently, she started doing some stuffs that she never did ever since the sitch started. Like suddenly one day she was cooking for my parents, and another day she suddenly handed my parents some gifts and such. Thus I am kinda confuse by her behaviour. She will still tend to be very close with my family members, cousins, aunts and such even though previously she had been avoiding gathering sessions with them. And seems like she is only out to draw blood from me once I let my guard down about from my detachment. Scheme of a waw?
Should I see these signs as something positive or jus ignore it? Actually one think I am always curious about is, what are the signs if she is coming back and how do I react from there?
There's no way for you to know why she's doing all of that, so don't even try to understand it IMO.
I found this quote a while back and Steve made it famous:
When she wants you, you'll know it. When she doesn't, you'll be confused.
So which is it?
Hi ovrrnbw,
Wise words. Recently I am confused with her behavior as she exhibited behavior and signs of whom she was in the past, though it's kinda like some flash backs thus I am also confused.
Will take this phase for judgment.
Hi TS. You know what ‘s said, you need to let her go if you want her back. Do you?
Keep detaching and sticking to DB: no expectations. Show her you’ll go on with your life and being the leader of your family. Avoid those recurrent MR talks about divorce. She knows where you stand, stop that.
How’s GAL going?
Hi neffer,
Yes for now I am still detaching and not holding expectations. Holding up the family and focusing on the kids. I never discuss to her anything about marriage and only keep conversations short with regards to day to day matters or regarding the kids.
Like 2 days back she suddenly told me that she will be out of town next week for another holiday. I told her sure ok. Just lt me know if she'll like me to drop her at the air port or pick her up when she is back ( No special intent for this. Just goodwill ). Then she said she never check the time of her flight yet and I told her just let me know if she likes to.
And next Saturday is my Dad's birthday and there will be a family gathering. I told her about the event and just join us if she'll like to.
GAL been fine. My knee recovered and I'm back to jogging and exercising. Felt good after exerting it all on the track and covered in sweat. Recently, with the kids, she's also doing the "My stand is same as you". When I discipline the kids and they went to her, she stood by my stance which I think would be good for the kids.
Oh yeah, something funny happened. Last year we acted as a separated family in a short film by a common friend. The script was me and my wife were separated with each of us taking along a kid and then reunited in the end. Along the while in real life since bomb dropped, she had been talking to the kids about separation.
Thus while tugging in the kids to sleep couple of days ago, the elder one suddenly blurted out that "we will be separated like the film we acted in and that fulfills your wish for separation." Next the younger one echoed "Yeah I will be with mum as like in the film and you will be dad" After that she was kinda taken aback and told them that it's all just scripted and it's friction. I guess that moment did someone knock her senses a bit for always talking to the kids about separation which in her words, "preparing them for it".
Till far, I have not receive any notification from her Lawyer although she claimed that she had filed for more than a month back.
I am not sure if I had handled this situation correctly.
Things had been ok for awhile. Yesterday she was asking if I am going out in the evening I mentioned that I might have some plans. Then she keep asking me what time I will return for she may be going out. Which I responded that well she can go ahead I’ll just change my schedule and accompany the kids. Then after dinner, out she went.
Then, I accompanied the kids to sleep and waking up intermittently as one of the chap was not feeling well. It was 4:30am that I noted she is not back yet. I dropped her a call thinking if something might went wrong. She never picked up. Then I dropped her a message asking if she’s coming back tonight and if everything is ok. She replied sorry will be abit late. And said she will be returning for the night. Then I replied ok. Just concern.
By the time she returned, it was 6am. I asked her in a firm and calm manner, where were she for the night? She avoided my question and said well, she went for supper. I told her that at this time, what she is having is breakfast, not supper. She kept quiet, proceed to wash up before rolling into my kid’s empty bed as my kid was sleeping with me.
Then I asked her if she just intend to brush this off? Doesn’t she need to be accountable for her action? Our home is not a hotel and this is not how u treat it and treat us. Then she asked me what’s wrong? I told her well nothing is right about her action. Does she think there’s nothing wrong? She kept quiet on it. I then asked her whom she was out with the night before? She mentioned they went to a pub and after that had supper. I told her pubs closes latest at 3am. It’s 3 good hours after that.
Then she went on the we agreed never to interfere in each other business blah blah blah. I told her there was not such agreement before. I give her my respect and I demanded back equally the same respect. She then claim I never tol her where I go also when I am Out (part of gal) out which I replied well if you asked, I would have say. then she asked me if it is that she gave me names, then the matter will be rested?
I told her that is not the point. She has to know her role and who she is and what she is doing. Before she claimed that how she does not wish to be someone whom she isn’t to please everyone and such and how unhappy she is with her life yada yada, take a look at her own actions. Then she claims she does not need me to pity her. I told her I am not pitying her but my children. given her role as a mum, a wife, an educator and all she place herself on the moral high horse, does she think her action was right at all for the night? She then shut her eye and kept mum about it. And I just stop probing further.
All along, my tone was calm but firm. For today, I think she’s just going to sleep the whole day away as usual with no responsibilities for the kids. I am just going to enjoy the day with both the lovely boys. And also this evening, I will excuse myself from dinner over her family (had been attending the last few weeks) as an action of my displeasure over what had happened.
Any comments or advice for me?
This is tough. I'm at a loss for advice here TS. So I'm going to say that until you figure out a plan of how to respond, you try not to worry about what she is doing. Now that you've brought it up with her, she surely knows. She even knew before you spoke to her about it. I don't see that you are ready to divorce her, so I say you focus on your own stuff and try to let her go. Let her staying out all night be water off the duck's back.
What are you doing for self improvement and self growth?
Hi Ovrrnbw,
The same recently. Trying to keep myself busy but the difference is I started going over for weekly meals after certain gathering festivals and things were pleasant till the above episode.
This couple of days she just revert to the state of hostility style when she converse with me carrying the tone of angst in her voice, even though it was just general topics. The night before she was trying to engage into a disagreement with me over if to on/off the air conditioner while we sleep but I never took the bait. But I can feel the bitterness from there.
Today on the way to work, I told her that the elder boy had a habit of flicking his middle fingers at others right now and we've got to correct him. Then she started accusing by saying well, he learnt that from seeing me doing that. I corrected her on the spot asking her since when she saw me doing that? Even if I swore much during my younger days and such, I corrected my self when I became a father and I never swear in front of my kids, let alone flashing the middle finger and flashing the finger had never been a habit or action I do. She kept quiet after that.
I feel that she has slide into the bitter mode again and starting to build fantasies in her mind to taint me in justifying for her actions or whichever so. The denial and projection to make herself feel better?
Phew, past weekend, she had a melt down on me.
We were out for lunch together as a family to a restaurant. Upon arriving at the venue and turning into the carpark, I stopped because there was another car in front of me having issues in parking. And it was driven by a rather elderly gentlemen.
The gentlemen really had some challenge in navigating into the space and start to cause some tailback being our car as well. Then she started nagging at me saying that I should have parked behind and I should do that. I just told her let's have some patience. It's an elderly person trying to park and our path behind are blocked.
Then her tone changed and exclaimed she and the kids are all hungry and we are stuck in this mess. I told her lets have a bit of patience more. I am also hungry and I have not taken anything since the morning. Then she went ape and exclaimed it's my fault and I should have parked behind!. I told her then what do you expect me to do now? I can't reverse. Would you like to go down and confront the gentlemen I asked her.
With that, she just stormed off the car herself, and walked to towards the other car. But at this time, the driver managed to get into parking position and reverse the car in. Upon this, she just walked towards the restaurant herself. Then I drove past her and parked the car. Kids were on the car and witness the earlier matter. I told them kids, we must have patience while on the road and there is no need to get into a rage. I was explaining to them we have to always be calm as we got off the car, she walked over and claimed what I was telling to the kids? I told her I was teaching them to be patience especially if facing an elderly person. And she just keep biting on it.
When we got into the restaurant and while queuing, she mentioned that she's going to share a serving with my younger boy while I get a serving with the elder boy. I told her the elder boy and I would need a serving each otherwise we would not be full. She got flicked again and started ranting that is not what she meant and whatsoever flaring by her then, I couldn't and don't wanna recall any more. Those who queue behind us were shocked and even the servers were taken aback.
I just kept quiet, ignore her and went on with the order and had a quiet lunch. Thereafter, I told her that I am not going over her place for dinner. Post that, a couple of days went by without much correspondence between us. Yesterday morning, she told me that she would be moving out to her friend's house again on "some days" as her tenant had moved away. I never stop her and said ok. Post that, her tone to me changed since yesterday till today and tonight, she supposed to stay over her friend's place.
Looking back, perhaps I may not have handle the validation in the car well as similarly I was getting abit impatient but maintaining my cool on the other car's parking. And when she blew the sparks, I also engage her back. Other than that, I just can't be bothered much of her moving out. It seems that she is still very deep in the fog and seriously, it's kinda sad for me to see that the kids pretty much don't ask for her anymore when she is away.
I'm not sure how you could have validated that, sounds like she was just looking for an excuse to start a fight. Overall you did well not letting things escalate.
Sometimes WAS's will bait the LBS constantly to create tension, it's their way of convincing themselves that leaving the M is the "right" thing to do (especially if the LBS lets themselves get pulled into fights).
Early on my XW treated me pretty poorly, and then at one point she actually came to me and explained she had done it to "help me move on" but felt bad because I wasn't reciprocating. So she said she wasn't going to do it anymore. And she didn't after that. So yes, they do sometimes do it intentionally to drive us away.
Hi AnotherStander,
I get the baiting part. Always remind myself not to be caught by it. She used to be a just let it slide off her back kind of person but during the eve before the BD, she did ever mentioned that she does not wish to let things go anymore and she would like to voice out her opinion. Then she was referring to about kids squashing chocolate bars at supermarkets or inconsiderate actions by others, she would want to to voice out on them. But I noted it evolved into more of verbal conviction of other's action to justify/satisfy her moral beliefs.
On Saturday, I joined her and the kids for lunch but I was late from work and they were at the restaurant and ordered the food first. They each got a set meal and when I reached, I ordered mine through the tablet and it was processed electronically. After a while, their food came first as their order were processed earlier. Then my wife mentioned that they might not be able to finish their portion and perhaps I should share with them. I told her sure, then I asked the restaurant manager over and told her I wish to cancel my order. The restaurant manager acknowledged and walked away.
After a while, I checked through the ordering tablet and saw my order in the bill still. Thus, I asked the restaurant manager over and enquire about why my order had not been cancelled? The restaurant manager just mentioned oh, she thought I was trying to verify with her if my order had been successfully keyed in, instead of a cancellation request. Then the restaurant manager run to the kitchen to check but it was too late. They have started preparing the order. Then the restaurant manager came back and reiterate that she thought it was trying to ask her if the order had been taken in and the food had been prepared. Although she never apologize and the service wasn't really that good in this manner, I just let it slide as I thought I was the one who ordered and wished to cancel it later and after all, its a miscommunication. Why ruined the lunch together for that?
After the restaurant manager left our table, my wife mentioned that its she who heard wrongly. I told her I know. But looking at her reply and attitude, it does not seems that she is intending to apologize also thus just let it slide. No point holding on to it. Then my wife tried to bait me by saying "Well, her attitude is just like someone". I just let it slide and pretend I never hear that.
Next, my order was served to me and to my surprised, my wife had not let it slide. She confronted the Restaurant manager again saying earlier, it's she who heard my request wrongly. Then the restaurant manager starts to get defensive again saying she thought I was trying to confirm my order. Then, I just told them yes, my request was to cancel the order. The restaurant manager did not catch it but it's ok. Just let it go and it's a miscommunication.
Normally, I will refer to how a person treat a service staff as a yardstick of character and it is really disturbing that why she is biting so hard into such a matter. Following that, my wife started to mentioned that one of the kid's order should be free as one kid dine free with 2 paying adults when they order kids meal. Then she start to go through the bill again and upon seeing the kids order on the invoice, starts calling the restaurant manager over again asking why the kids order are being charged? The restaurant manager then advice her that it because the kids ordered other meals than the kids meal. Thus its being charge.
Next, she turned to the children and was about to cast the responsibility onto them but I just intersected. I mentioned they are just kids and when you pass the ordering tablet to them, how would they know which item are on promotion and which are not? After they order, we should check through before confirming. Then she just kept quiet.
It was really a tiring lunch though I hope to be there for and with the kids. I just feel like she's like a piranha, trying to chew onto something always and challenge it and prove her point, to please or comfort some internal beliefs or what. Or maybe trying to make up to how she could have reacted to past situations in her life which she have not done so then but spamming it on everyone now?
One thing that always stands out to me from Sandi's advice is "she's no longer the girl you married". Sometimes that girl is gone for good. I've noticed that since my wife went through her WW period, she's not as compassionate as she used to be. She's much more blunt and direct, without the same level of caution and regard for the feelings of others. I think this may be a permanent change in her personality. I do miss the fact that she was so considerate before, but I can't change that or her. It does make for some uncomfortable moments.
Anyway, just deal with it when you have to as best you can. It sounds like you handled it pretty well.
It was really a tiring lunch though I hope to be there for and with the kids. I just feel like she's like a piranha, trying to chew onto something always and challenge it and prove her point, to please or comfort some internal beliefs or what. Or maybe trying to make up to how she could have reacted to past situations in her life which she have not done so then but spamming it on everyone now?
OK so let me say as an impartial observer this is what I am seeing here- you and your W go out to lunch, there is a miscommunication that IS THE MANAGER'S FAULT and your W chooses to confront the manager while you would rather not. The manager acknowledges the misunderstanding but refuses to do anything about it, which is WRONG. Your W continues to press the manager while you basically try to get her to back off and just ignore the problem. So my take? Your W was 100% correct in demanding the manager do something, and you did not support your wife in her efforts to seek reparation. What message do you think that sends to her? Now you might think this is a minor incident, and you would be right, but all these little incidences over years and years add up for the WAS until they reach the breaking point.
Have you read No More Mister Nice Guy? It's a good companion read to DR and we suggest it a lot after reading DR. It's not what the title sounds like, it addresses "nice guy syndrome" (NGS) and how outwardly "nice" guys tend to act in very passive/aggressive ways that are very damaging to their relationships. Most guys here aren't full blown nice guys but can identify with at least some of what they read. This example you gave of this interaction at the restaurant definitely smacks of NGS.
To follow on with AS... my H and I have the same dynamic (though opposite gender) where he's the one to get ridiculously angry with people who take to long to park and servers who screw up orders and can't/won't acknowledge their mistake. This was a long, LONG time area of contention for us because I felt like (a) NBD chill and (b) let's not make a scene, especially in front of the kids. So the other day we were driving and a car in front of us did a few annoying things... not really all that big of a deal but my H got heated and honked once. The car pulls up alongside of us and the lady rolls down her window and starts shouting. What I would have done previously is try to calm my H and get angry with him for causing the sitch. This time I did nothing and validated him for being annoyed, and when the lady went off the rails and I was totally on his side that her behavior was unacceptable. We kept driving, he was quiet for awhile... and then he said to me out of nowhere what he thought he could have done better, and that he probably shouldn't have engaged at all with the kids in the car. I was blown away. This was probably the most stark example of it, but since I've stopped responding when he starts to get road rage, it has completely simmered down to the point where he says something off-hand when encountering a bad driver but the anger that used to be behind it is nearly gone.
I know my sitch is not the same as yours BUT I agree with AS that maybe these are opportunities for 180s for you in these kinds of sitches. She's spinning out of control and maybe you're feeding that somewhat with your actions in those situations.
Hi AS and May,
Thanks for pointing out from another perspective which I have failed to notice. I do note that it is the Manager's fault in this manner and agreed with my wife that it's the manager's fault on missing out on my request, though I chose to take the stand not to pursue further as I thought it's a small matter and just leave and let live. In fact, when the manager came over for the first time, I did tell her that my request is to cancel the order and she's wrong. Just thought that the episode was over but surprised my wife was still holding on to it. Perhaps its like those quarrels we had which after it was over, I thought things were fine but in fact they are not and I never noticed.
This could be like what AS said, built up and accumulated over the years that contributed to the triggering as well. Will look up on the Mr. Nice guy portion and read on it and perhaps the next time, just be more assertive?
To follow on with AS... my H and I have the same dynamic (though opposite gender) where he's the one to get ridiculously angry with people who take to long to park and servers who screw up orders and can't/won't acknowledge their mistake. This was a long, LONG time area of contention for us because I felt like (a) NBD chill and (b) let's not make a scene, especially in front of the kids. So the other day we were driving and a car in front of us did a few annoying things... not really all that big of a deal but my H got heated and honked once. The car pulls up alongside of us and the lady rolls down her window and starts shouting. What I would have done previously is try to calm my H and get angry with him for causing the sitch. This time I did nothing and validated him for being annoyed, and when the lady went off the rails and I was totally on his side that her behavior was unacceptable. We kept driving, he was quiet for awhile... and then he said to me out of nowhere what he thought he could have done better, and that he probably shouldn't have engaged at all with the kids in the car. I was blown away. This was probably the most stark example of it, but since I've stopped responding when he starts to get road rage, it has completely simmered down to the point where he says something off-hand when encountering a bad driver but the anger that used to be behind it is nearly gone.
I know my sitch is not the same as yours BUT I agree with AS that maybe these are opportunities for 180s for you in these kinds of sitches. She's spinning out of control and maybe you're feeding that somewhat with your actions in those situations.
Hi may22,
By the way this scenario sounds like me in the past and my wife was assuming your role. But somehow or rather nowadays, I noticed that we have swapped our roles. I becoming whom she was while she becoming whom I were for certain instances.
Hi TS,
That is really interesting and congratulations-- that is probably a pretty major 180 for you. And I can say that I could imagine if I was in your wife's shoes, your calmness when I'm feeling out of control might be infuriating... but from a DB perspective maybe in a good way as it shows she's registering your 180. If that is the case, maybe continuing on your path of calmness and 180s is actually the better route than backing her up-- you are definitely the best judge of that.
But if I could make a tiny suggestion:
After the restaurant manager left our table, my wife mentioned that its she who heard wrongly. I told her I know. But looking at her reply and attitude, it does not seems that she is intending to apologize also thus just let it slide. No point holding on to it. Then my wife tried to bait me by saying "Well, her attitude is just like someone". I just let it slide and pretend I never hear that.
maybe instead of the "let it slide" elaboration you could have left it at "I know"? Validating and then staying out of it might help to *not* fan her flames? Being told to calm down and let it go when you're spoiling for a fight is like pouring gasoline on a fire (I've totally been there). Though of course you were right to step in when she was turning on the kids.
I used to think that the kids seeing their dad being an a**hole and me letting it slide was detrimental to them and so I called out his behavior every time. Now I just validate and generally stay out of it and not only does it happen way less frequently but it generally peters out very quickly after one comment rather than escalating. And, I'm not letting him use me as a foil for his anger and confusion.
A weekend which I was trying to keep my cool.
Saturday night we were out having a dinner with her family and extended family for her Aunt's birthday celebration. But through the dinner, she was impatient because she had arranged a Halloween party later with her friends and she wanted to go back to get her make up done as she was trying to dress up as some ghost. Earlier, before we attended the dinner, I gave her some tips on how to dress up for the party and she liked it. But as we were leaving the dinner place, she started showing her temper for whichever slight delay that occurs along our way back.
Got home and after the kids slept, she went ahead with her prep and left the house. She returned around 5 plus am in the morning and I was woken up by her coming into the room and also by a shoulder sprain that I had. As usual, she slept on my younger boy's bed which was a mattress on the ground next to our bed. After a while, she started texting discreetly lying down at the blanket.
I do not know if it was due to her past EA that I experienced and when I saw this, I just told her that she does not need to text so discreetly.. Was it another guy or what is the bunch of students that she used to hang out with? She mentioned no. She is just texting "Them" that she is back home safely. I asked her if it was other man? She mentioned no again. Then she tried to give an excused that she had fallen asleep and the phone slide off onto the bed. I told her, just tell me the truth. I saw her texting. She went quiet. Then I said, well if there's other guys, its ok. The kids and I will just proceed with the separation plan and I will wait for her Divorce paper (She mentioned she had proceed with the divorce papers with her lawyer since August but till date, My Lawyer and I have not received any notification or anything).
Then she said she went out with XXX and YYY (XXX husband commits infidelity and she stayed because he is rich and YYY divorced her husband as he was living off her and the 3 of them were like the 3 musketeers sharing their marriage misery). After that, I just leave it as it is and she drifted off to sleep. In the late morning, she woken up for the restroom and I asked her how she like her lunch to be done as I was cooking for the whole family and she replied me in a normal tone. Then before I left the room, she asked me why did I react in that manner whenever she went out and came back.
I told her, for the previous episode, she went out for the entire night and only came back in the morning without informing. And for this morning episode, I saw her messaging discreetly like how she was behaving when she had her EA. Thus, I am making my stand. Next, she starts to say that the divorce paper is already in process and we should know our role. I told her yes, I know that but as long as the papers are not signed, I am still her husband and she is still my wife and she has to respect that status.
Next, I mentioned to her the following but before I said, I told her that what I was going to say is not something that I wish to change her mind about the divorce she is seeking after but what I feel I have to say. I told her that it would be tough for me to be her "Friend" once we are divorced because, I don't think it is right for me to downgrade my status from a husband to be her friend just to make her happy and feel good. Then she said she acknowledged that. Then I told her, she had been complaining about her health is not that good and getting angry when others told her she looks pale and frail. But in all honesty even as a friend, has she reviewed about her own lifestyle?
When at home, she was sleeping away the entire day, skipping and missing meals. then at night, she will go out till the wee hours. And during the day time when the kids ask for her and awaken her to join them for activities, she would be so edgy and bad tempered due to lack of rest. Basically she was a shadow of her past. Then she started to divert the topic and start to mention that she felt she is in good health and she is ok. Then she starts talking about the kids saying she had sought advice from various parents how to manage them best at their age etc.
I told her I felt glad that you are taking reference from the others on their opinion and advises. If you might have done the same for your marriage from those successful couples. She started to defend herself saying she did and quoted a few couples which I thought they are of very different demographics (Her 3 musketeer clique or problematic and partying creature couples without kids). Then she started saying that everyone of them are having problems also but yeah. Her feelings for me is dead and its over and she started feeling like this 9 years ago. And I am only in this pain for 2 years only and I feel this way.
I laughed and told her that I though you mentioned that you were killing your feelings for me since 2 years ago but now it became 9 years? Did you upgrade your count because I am also graduating at the 2 years mark? Then she said her feelings had started to fade 9 years ago thus since 2 years ago she made up her mind to kill it off totally and now she totally has no feelings for me. Only possibility if only, is after the divorce and everything would have to start all over again.
I told her that I acknowledged that in the past, we have our own issues and we grow from it. In marriage, those that last, are those that have their marriage goal and getting through it together. I asked her why she got married and whats her marriage goal? She mentioned she got married to be happy and her goal was to grow old together and do the things we like to do. I told her there bound to be challenges and its how we overcome it. And happiness is what we achieve ourselves, not depending on others to give. I just be frank about it to her that it was not all roses when we were married and I too had my down times but I looked at the greater picture and aiming to move on together.
She said she does not want to scarifies like her mum for the kids and if she feel she is unhappy, she should just walk away. I told her that's her escapist way of handling matter which our counselor also feel so because that is her beliefs in marriage that she experienced from her parents. While for me, I believe in working it through. Then she said well it's too late and her heart has died. Thats why she don't want to hurt herself anymore and she want to be happy. And she cannot imagine how I will be when I receive her letters if I am sad in the way I am now.
I told her I am sad because of the wonderful future I thought we could have together but ain't going to happen. Many great things happened in our marriage as well but it's just unfortunate that they were not remembered and recognized than the other stuffs. But one thing I know is I do not need her to be worried about me because I will be moving on to be a even greater person than I was before and now as I want to set a great example for the kids. She then said that's great. I told her if her opinion is to proceed with the divorce, then when the paper is here I will sign but the kids and I will live great. Then she said that well, She and the kids will be great as well for I am just the primary caregiver of them. She will also be very happy with them.
Then I told her that well, it's just a pity that things has to be in this way. At this point in time, the kids came into the room and mentioned they are hungry and I stop the conversation with her and proceed to cook for them. Later through the day, we carried on our activities with the kids as if nothing happened and also visited my mother at the hospital together and she prepared for my mum a small gift.
I do notice that she seemed slightly lost the whole day after the incident but I do not know if it is due to that she lack sleep or from the outcome of our exchange.
I frankly do not know how I have handle the above situation. It does not hurt me as much as previously probably as I am detaching but I still do feel sad. Recently at times, I thought that she seems to be better and starts making plans to improve things at home, bringing back new cpu for the kids and etc but well it seems the light is still so far away if any. At times, I still hope to treat the part on the processing of divorce paper as 50% truth of what she said and only wait for the real action for it's coming to 3 months and I have not heard anything from the layers. But I have to prepare myself if it really does happen.
Any comments and opinion for me on the above?
I frankly do not know how I have handle the above situation.
It was an R talk and surely you've read enough here and in Michele's books to know that R talks are a BAD IDEA. R talks are pressure, and the WAS wants zero pressure. Plus she's just spouting the usual WAS nonsense, rewriting history and such. It doesn't mean a thing, it's just a reflection of her current WAS-fogged mindset. It's like asking someone that just had surgery to describe their thoughts on War and Peace when they're still foggy from anesthetic.
Regarding her health and parenting, you can't fix her. Right now she's engaging in GGW activities and nothing else matters to her. At some point she will hit rock bottom but that could be months away. All you can do is remove yourself from the equation. Get out, GAL, leave her to the mess she's making. Quit asking about who she's texting and why. Quit asking about the M. Quit asking about S and D unless you want to pursue it yourself.
TS,
To add to what AS said I would stop doing things together as a family. It help with detachment and it gets the kids use to doing things separately. Also, you need to stop trying to use logic and reason with her and validate her feelings.
It's very typical for the WW to drag their feet with D papers because right now she is getting the best of both worlds. She's living the single life and getting the comforts of the family life. Especially because the LBS is trying to placate the WW and turning into to super spouse and doing everything around the house.
Hi AS and LH19,
Thanks for sharing your views and advice.
Yes, I thought to myself that as I had said my piece to her, I would leave it as it is that even in future such instances occurs of her messaging so discreetly and such, I would not react on it the slightest bit.
I would need to DB even further and GAL more. With regards to the doing things as family part, normally if there is an event coming up, I would extend the invite and if she does not wish to join, I don't force or beg her to and just leave it as it is. As like now for her family side events, she would ask me if I would like to join and if I am not, she will just go ahead with the kids.
Just that this weekend, we would be going for a short trip arranged by her family much earlier as I think they were hoping that we can mend through such get together? But we opted for separate connecting rooms for the trip.
Another thing on GAL for me is maybe I am not that ready for my kids to be independent yet? There were occasions which is supposed to be her nights to look after the kids but she went ahead and plan events for herself. And when I told her that I am going out too, she would suggest that just leave the kids by themselves after they sleep. I am not very comfortable with that as the chaps does wake up middle of the night and when they found neither of us around, would be very worried.
Just like couple of days back, the younger one woke up and saw the mum missing and started to question her where she went in the middle of the night even though she accompanied them to sleep and goes out after that. For me when such occasion occurs, I opt to stay back with the children instead of proceeding with my plans. May not be a healthy move because it would just encourage her to go ahead with her plans anyway even though it's her turn to look after the kids. I am still looking for better arrangement for above situation.
Frankly, judging and looking at the state she is now, I cannot imagine getting back and living life with her. It would be a nightmare.
TS,
I guess I'm wondering why you are asking her to come along on family trips? Do you still plan on doing things together as a family when your are divorced?
My kids transitioned into D fairly well and I think it was because dew eased them into it by doing things with them separately. The only thing we did together as a family was eat together.
TS,
I am seeing the R talk recently. It doesn't seem to have helped. Talking about her behavior being unacceptable seems to be counter productive when you are still hanging around and not leaving her, so IMO you should avoid these talks for the time being.
Keep your sorrow and personal growth to yourself IMO. Don't discuss how great things could have been. I don't think she cares about your pain at the moment, and you talking about how you moving on to be a greater person and parent just comes off the wrong way.
Let her see these things for herself, because she won't hear it from you.
Hi LH19, and overrnbw,
Actually the trip was not arranged by me but by her family members. They hope that I would be joining and I went along as it was planned earlier and I was worried about the kids. Other than that, I just keep options open on events if she wish to come along / not as I read somewhere around here that it's fine to extend invitation but just don't let her change your plans? Other than that, same we only eat together as a family and it's also the if you like to join us, then join. If not, its fine we will not change our plans for you.
After it's over, I do think back and thought to myself, indeed the previous talk was relational. I should have drop it than to even be bothered by it. Focus on validating. However, she does try to take a cheap shot at me once in a while which really irks me as her remarks were so damn ridiculously outright to spite you. Most of the time, I just ignore it than even validating or replying her. But if it's too much, I would make my stand strongly.
Sometimes, I do get the funny feeling that she is doing the detachment thing from us and she is doing it quite well. Perhaps she's already genuinely on path the other direction thus able to pull it off so naturally. I should learn from it.
Hi LH19, and overrnbw,
Actually the trip was not arranged by me but by her family members. They hope that I would be joining and I went along as it was planned earlier and I was worried about the kids. Other than that, I just keep options open on events if she wish to come along / not as I read somewhere around here that it's fine to extend invitation but just don't let her change your plans? Other than that, same we only eat together as a family and it's also the if you like to join us, then join. If not, its fine we will not change our plans for you.
After it's over, I do think back and thought to myself, indeed the previous talk was relational. I should have drop it than to even be bothered by it. Focus on validating. However, she does try to take a cheap shot at me once in a while which really irks me as her remarks were so damn ridiculously outright to spite you. Most of the time, I just ignore it than even validating or replying her. But if it's too much, I would make my stand strongly.
Sometimes, I do get the funny feeling that she is doing the detachment thing from us and she is doing it quite well. Perhaps she's already genuinely on path the other direction thus able to pull it off so naturally. I should learn from it.
TS,
From your last couple post you are making a lot of mistakes with relationship talks, cake eating and allowing disrespect.
I feel like your cherry picking information here and there trying to fit into your narrative. You most likely have a wayward on your hands so you should not allow her to play happy family. You should never allow her throw cheap shots at you especially in front of the children. Also, never validate cheap shots and disrespectful behavior.
If you are looking to turn things around and attract her back she most respect you first. Right now she clearly doesn't.
I see nothing horribly wrong with going on the trip and playing "happy family" because she is not involved with an OM and she hasn't moved out. Might there be things happening that we don't know about? Sure, but at the same time if TS knows of nothing, or if it is not a physical affair, then I'd go be AMAOFWL around her, the kids, and extended family.
As for the disrespectful things she says, just find a way to leave the room. You can't control, but you don't have to tolerate that stuff TS.
Sorry OB but woman don’t stay out until 5:00am playing cribbage.
Sorry OB but woman don’t stay out until 5:00am playing cribbage.
My wife stays out all night and has been coming home at these times. I'm torn because in one of Sandi's 37 rules she says not to ask ANY questions. But i feel like coming home that late repeatedly is disrespectful to myself and son. I dont know what I should do. It's becoming more frequent, the last time she came home at 5am was halloween , and then she went out with her friends after work and came home closer to 2am this past saturday. Both times I texted her to have a good time. am i enabling her at this point?
K,
I wouldn’t say you’re enabler her but it is disrespectful. Here’s the thing, you can’t control her but you can set boundary to protect yourself.
K,
I wouldn’t say you’re enabler her but it is disrespectful. Here’s the thing, you can’t control her but you can set boundary to protect yourself.
Thank you LH19
I'm going to have to read up on boundaries again. I guess I don't really understand them pertaining to this situation
Sorry OB but woman don’t stay out until 5:00am playing cribbage.
I hear ya. But she's living at home, hasn't moved out, no affair that we know of. With TS not doing any reconnaissance it is not the time to pretend like he's ready to go hardcore DB on her.
I think he's not going to do well with the hard approach. And getting all reactive to what she is doing is not DB. So to me it's more of going the detachment route. How is it going to look to her family when he doesn't show up to family stuff with the W and kids? His W won't say "Oh well I'm staying out all night GGW and therefore he is setting a boundary". She'll throw him under the bus.
By and large I agree with your sentiment, I'm just not sure what he can do with that.
TS, what is the "status" of your R?
Well since papers have been filed its going to have to be explained to families anyway. Who cares what she tells her family that's her problem. He can always tell his family that they are having problems right now. I don't see the point of playing happy family and this gives the opportunity to slowly transition into doing things separately which will also help with detachment.
Hi all,
Thanks for the replies and such. Actually at this point in time, my mentality is split between no longer cares / don’t know what other stuffs I can do about her actions. Thus I maintain my stand and would not allow her to verbally abuse me through retaliation / ignoring.
During week days, she doesn’t come back for dinner. Her mum ever told me that certain days, she actually went over to their place for dinner before she comes back. I do not wish to think too much into that and maybe her mum might be covering up for her. When her family call looking for her and she’s not around, her mum will call her up and question her whereabouts. I do not want to take the initiative to be a whistle blower and involves her family as I don’t think it lead to anywhere positive as well.
With regards to the weekend nights out, she does put up IG photos after the event but who knows she could have blocked me from some other photos as well. But I don’t want to be bothered with that.
For now I think I am conditioning myself to treat her like a stranger. Even during family events. Another one coming up this weekend that her brother invited me over to his birthday dinner and they were looking forward to the stuffs I cook as it is a pot luck session.
Her family does know I am very displeased with her and they are by my side as they claim. They witness how shot fused and manipulating she was when she was talking to me, the kids, and even to the extend of trying to manage her family members. A common feeling they shared was, she is a totally changed person.
With regards to our relationship status OB, we are still married and living in the same house. She mentioned she had got her lawyer to process the divorce papers in August and I have also standby my lawyer. But till date nothing. So she just live in and kinda taking this place like a hotel now. But one thing is, I no longer try to dissuade her from divorce unlike previously and told her that she can proceed and serves me the papers and I am waiting if stuffs got riled up.
I may not be ready to be the initiator now. But I would no longer say I will not be the initiator like I used to think. Thus for now, perhaps you are right I am on the detachment route.
LH, I am trying to get whatever information I can while reading here and apply. Such as telling her I will live better as per some old timer quoted here, talk only when she initiate the relationship talk and also setting my boundaries which I confronted her during her late night out without at least the courtesy of informing because I do not condone her to take this home like a hotel. With regards to OM/EA and stuffs, she mentioned there isn’t. I had made it clear to her if I come to know about it if there is one, that’s it. We will cut everything here with me initiating. But I do not know if there could be OW though as some of her friends whom she hangs out with has different gender preference and basically, I do not see anyone of her close back comes from a family orientated or full family background.
I have not gotten the DB book previously as there was no electronic version band I do not wish to let her see I am reading the book as we still lives together. But now I have ordered the book and perhaps just wrap up the cover so she would not access it.
Sorry if what I type above may not be too coherent. Nursing a gastric flu with the kids monkeying around me now and posting this via phone.
Well since papers have been filed its going to have to be explained to families anyway. Who cares what she tells her family that's her problem. He can always tell his family that they are having problems right now. I don't see the point of playing happy family and this gives the opportunity to slowly transition into doing things separately which will also help with detachment.
Actually both families knows we are having problems and her family the full picture. Just that they are trying to be more supportive for the kids and leaving things to us to manage. I am actually joining her family at times as my in laws were hoping for me to be there. For now, I will go if I feel like it and not for her or for the hope of reconciliation but more for them. But I know will come a day if all comes to naught, I will not be joining for such occasions anymore.
TS,
In the grand scheme of things it doesn't change anything whether you attend family functions or not. I'm talking more about going out to eat and other fun things that you just take the kids. It took me a little while to adjust to just the three of us and it helped me immensely with detachment.
Hi LH,
Actually when I attended those functions, its not more of hoping anything for the both but I think to have the both parents being present together for the kids. I also do feel pointless on the part of playing happy family to the adults but more for the kids?
I am pretty used in going out with both the chaps myself now since it's coming to 2 years for our sitch. In fact, I do feel that the whole outing is much more relaxed and less pressured without her around. Given her sudden emotional explosion or way of preference over the others, then giving hell if couldn't get it her way.
Sometime its just kinda crazy and out of the world. I'll just share an instance. I was at the mall. She was with the kids and she called asking if I am doing grocery shopping? I told her maybe later or the next day when they are back home and I get the car which is much more convenient for me. She then suggest me to do the shopping and they will drive over and pick me up.
I finished my shopping in time when they came over to pick me up. I got onto the car, she kicked up a big fuss. Saying why should I carry out the shopping now and could have done it the next day. And now she is late for her next appointment.
I never intend to do the shopping that day. She suggested me to.
I never ask her to pick me up. She offered to.
I was in time. Not the one delaying her.
I felt that I am dealing with a schizo at times. Thus, I actually pretty much enjoy the time alone with the chaps or by myself. Just that when I am out alone, I do worry about what the chaps are going through.
TS,
So you will do things together when divorced?
LH,
Meals with the kids, yes.
Her family occasions, depends but maybe as a family friend. However this would have to be reviewed if either of us has a new partner to avoid any form of awkwardness
A long and rough day.
This morning on the way to work, she mentioned to me that perhaps we should make some arrangement for care taking of our children when my mother goes for her surgery next February. I told her sure, it should be fine as our helper should be able to assume the task for both kids will be enrolled in same school coming spring and there should be no issue with logistics.
Next, she told me that the divorce paper should be ready soon. I said ok. Then she mentioned that I do not need to rush to plan in moving out with the kids. I told her, well, it is fine. This has been dragging for long. We will just proceed with our plan to move out and let her have the life she sought for. And on that note, she also does not need to worry about the children arrangement during my mother's surgery as we will make the arrangement ourselves. With that, I bid her good bye as I alight to my work place.
I thought that I will be fine when she mentioned the divorce topic and pretty much gotten over it but somehow, it stung me still. Couple days back, my helper was also sharing with me that when I was away, my wife was telling my children that I treated her so nice back then. But nowadays I only scolds her. (I did not actually scold her but reprimand and made my stand clear when she crosses my boundaries).
We had some disagreement over the weekend on how to discipline a dog which she had bought but later just leave it at home and left the care taking to others, for over a year plus. Then later, she got her mum to call and ask me not to punish the dog (I slap the dog's backside and showed it the pee when it starts peeing all over the house to housebreak the dog. Previously I succeeded in doing so but when my wife is around, the dog starts peeing all over and got away with it. Till now it starts peeing everywhere).
I gave her mum the words that I would not punish the dog again. Then I told my wife I will not be doing that and will carry out more positive reinforcements.
Then my wife said that she understand that I may feel angry and such and it's better that I continue with my counselling. It will be better for my well beings. I told her yeah thanks. I had actually been doing that. And I will just be a better person for the kids. And as it has come to this stage, its kind of tiring for me.
I share with her that, even if she made up her mind to divorce me, I am fine with it. And we are under the same roof, she does not has to treat me that way everytime she sees me. I asked if divorce would really solve the issue of her unhappiness? If it will, it's fine. And is she going to talk to me like that still even after we divorce? It's funny. It takes alot of energy to behave in this way. And I do not think she is happy. But well if she feels that is the best way it is to be and having a divorce is going to make her a happier person than now, then is fine. Just proceed.
I do not know if above constitute a relationship talk but I just feel I have to voice out. It has get quite tiring for me to face her in this way in daily manner and I don't quite see or understand the point of it. I told her to just drop the angst and such if she had made up her mind.
Today just ain't my day. Burnt out at work too. Time to get a drink.
TS,
Come on man you know those talks are pointless. Do you really think she's going to say "maybe you're right, it won't make me happy?". I'm very curious as to why you still ride to work together? Also, curious as to why you are the one moving out?
I gave her mum the words that I would not punish the dog again. Then I told my wife I will not be doing that and will carry out more positive reinforcements.
What you did is fine, that's how dogs learn. Why would you let her mom scold about a dog that your WW dumped on you? I'd tell your MIL to stay in her lane, and if she got mouthy more I'd be more frank about what her daughter is doing and ask if she plans on intervening there as well.
I agree with LH in that you need to stop with the R talks, quit talking about her.
I gave her mum the words that I would not punish the dog again. Then I told my wife I will not be doing that and will carry out more positive reinforcements.
What you did is fine, that's how dogs learn. Why would you let her mom scold about a dog that your WW dumped on you? I'd tell your MIL to stay in her lane, and if she got mouthy more I'd be more frank about what her daughter is doing and ask if she plans on intervening there as well.
I agree with LH in that you need to stop with the R talks, quit talking about her.
This is very common today where we can't hurt a dog's feelings. I just heard a report where you should never "yell" at your dog. LOL People view animals and pets above humans these days. So none of this surprises me. I am sure in some jurisdiction in the western world swatting your dog on the butt would get you jailed for animal cruelty. Crazy mixed up world today.
However, I agree with TS's capitulating on this. Best to defuse the situation than to aggravate it. It is a small point of concession. Is the plan for her to take the dog after the D?
I agree Steve, you have a way of making a point that is very helpful to someone who is still full of piss and vinegar like me.
I just wouldn't tell her that I'm not going to punish the dog ever, because I'm not letting someone make a liar out of me either.
She's probably wondering why she's scolding her SIL about a dog anyways.
Hi LH,
We are still taking the same ride to work because that is the family car and I am paying half of it. Thus I felt that why should I let her have it by herself, and I have to incur other transportation expense for myself? Just like why I am still staying in the house.
With regards to moving out of the house, that is because I intend to dispose our current home once I sign the papers if it is presented to me.
Hi ovrrnbw,
Her mum actually did not scold me but talked to me nicely and said she's very sad when the dog is being beaten. I did tell her mum what I did was disciplining the dog when normally the owner was nowhere to be seen to be doing her job. Then she starts saying that she would like to take over the dog after her current dog which is of old age dies. I told her by doing this, she is taking over the crap that her daughter left behind. The daughter previously had a dog before we were married and left the dog with her parents. Then the dog was also spoiled and untrained, [censored]/pee through the whole house even on my parent in law's bed and gets away with it.
My in laws actually knows what is going on and the daughter is lying. They had been enabling her previously especially my MIL and when I touch on the topic of her daughter, it has almost go to the extend she was trying to avoid it now a days.
I also do understand why. Because they are unable to do anything except apologizing to me due to how she had spoiled her and just sighing away. Well anyway I don't expect them to be doing anything for me either so I also don't feel good about dumping it on my MIL.
However I felt that her priority in the call is all wrong. Though I was already expecting she would call because I never went to her place for dinner. There are other matters to worry about but she is focusing on such matter and losing sleep over it. But well, she is someone who will go all out for animal than human anyway like what Steve85 mentioned so I just leave it there.
With regards to the car and because of my part in financing it, what's your take guys? Continue sharing it? or Take alternative transport myself even though I am financing it? Would need the car for now for ferrying the children and I know if I stop financing my share for the car, she would not be able to own it as well.
Recently, I noticed one thing.
When the wayward spouse does abit of chores, she would amplify it and makes as if she is the one that had been handling all the housekeeping and it's all her effort.
Conversation was started by her with regards to their well being touching on sleeping time of the kids and their request for ice-cream etc. She was claiming that although now is the holiday period, the kids should not sleep later than 10:00 pm and they should not be having Ice-Cream etc.
Although I validate on the part on kids should not sleep that late and not having Ice-Cream on a very frequent basis, I disagree on her extreme handling on it to the extend that kids should not have any of these treats, lollipop and sleeping later than 10:30pm like it is the rule of law. (However if she is the one that breaks it, it's fine).
I told her to cut the kids some slack. They are after all children. I told her to think like a 6 and 9 year old and what they like and what makes them happy? She is clamping down on them like how her mum had been treating her when she was young. She was not happy and now she is doing the same thing to our kids?
Then she starts to claim that now I am trying to be the "good guy" and allowing them to do or give whatever they want / like while she took on the role of a bad person. I told her that was never the intention. What I meant is in moderation. She was banning the kids from this and that and whenever there's the opportunity or behind our back, the kids would start to gorge themselves silly and lie to us. I told her I do not want this to become a characteristic behaviour that they carry into adulthood of hiding things. And how long can you restrict them?
They are growing up and they would have ample of opportunity to do it, either you like it or not. Most importantly is to explain to them and educate them on their choices. Likewise I told her I have stopped imposing strict restriction on the kids on their TV time but teaching them how to manage. We should not be so tough on them like she only allow 1 hour of TV time each even though it's the school holiday now and the kids are at home the whole day with nothing to do.
She starts to mentioned they should play their toys. I told her no kids play the same toys over and over again. We can allow them several activities in moderation. Next she claims she is the one who is always packing their toys and we are not doing anything blah blah blah (Just because she did that last weekend). I told her, well I appreciate you for packing the toys. But running a home and keeping it going is not only about packing the toys. There are many other chores that are ongoing in the background and we have been doing it. Just that we never sound out or mention it, doesn't mean we are not contributing to the household chores nor everything will just fall in place by themselves.
What I am sharing with you now is not to push blame but grooming the kids is our responsibility. If it does not work in one way, we try using another way. Just think of it that if you are a 9 year old kid what makes you happy? How would you feel if you are being restricted like the way you are doing to your kids? She just went quiet after that.
Seriously, its funny coming from someone who is missing from action most of the time and start making alot of noise for being around for a bit of time and doing something. Even the domestic helper was telling me that she's always kicking a fuss when she is back. And my elder boy had been challenging her more and more recently for her method towards him.
I have been releasing the rope more and more. On other times, the conversation with her had improved when I told her she does not need to talked to me in the manner she did. With angst in her tone or what. Thus after the previous post, she had talked to me more pleasantly. Previously she was telling me that she does not wish to mislead me or give me hope as I will be receiving the first draft of the divorce paper soon. I told her thanks for that. I am actually not harboring any hope or what so she can don't worry about that. I am just doing what a man is doing and how a father is treating his children. Just let me know when the papers will be here and I will let my lawyer know too. But she never reply after that.
I also had a change of mind recently. I would live at the house until the divorce has wrap up and the house being disposed then move out with my kids. I think both the chaps need sometime to transit as previously when I told them that we are shifting and we are separating, they both hugged me and cried. Mentioning they don't want to.
Well got to arrange some counselling sessions for them to when this happens. It's just irritating for what happened this morning. Especially the part on the amplification of self. We done alot for the house and the family and we never mention or claim credits for it because it's our home.
Not being away and neglecting all your duties, then help out a bit and start throwing your weight around and discrediting the others.
Updates.
This morning, she suddenly asked me how is my work? I gave her a brief description of what going on and what I am doing now.
Then she told me actually the draft divorce papers are ready since a couple days ago. It is just that she felt I looked stressed during this period and thus she had yet forward it to me. And she is also thinking about it.
Then I told her, well there's always stress in life. Depending on how one overcomes it and focus on all the meaningful little things we have now. Then she said ok she will be forwarding the draft paper to me. I said sure. Then I just bid her good by and alight to my work place.
How have I handled the situation?
Fine.
I would have preferred you just said, "I'm okay with whatever you decide." Remember, usually the less you say, the better. But you didn't handle it wrong or poorly.
I received her Lawyer's draft this morning.
It was a simple 2 page draft that mentioned about custody and division of asset.
Her claim on the reason for divorce was irreconcilable difference and we have been "separated for 3 years" in order to backdate and waive away the separation period as mandatory prior to divorce by the law of where we are.
She told me to take my time and read it. Well there isn't any much need to take my time to read. I browse through it within 5 minutes, then replied her that for any amendments, I will get my lawyer to work on it upon her official draft.
And I told her make the process as amicable as possible as I want to protect the kids and cushion them as much as I can from the impact.
To think that when we are leaving the house today, she was still asking for me help to get food for the dog as it's running out. I really like to see how this will work out.
Actually for the reason that she put up, irreconcilable difference and we have been "separated for 3 years", I was thinking of asking my lawyer to counter claim it as "Adultery" as she was wayward with EA.
Don't quite feel she should getaway with it like so easily.
Actually for the reason that she put up, irreconcilable difference and we have been "separated for 3 years", I was thinking of asking my lawyer to counter claim it as "Adultery" as she was wayward with EA.
Don't quite feel she should getaway with it like so easily.
Explored this. Unfortunately EAs don't meet the legal criteria of adultery. And in no fault states even adultery doesn't matter. Which is a real shame.
Ok. Well, on another note is that I am thinking that I would not hesitate on hiding the reason if people ask. Including the kids but for the kids, I only intend to let them know the real reason when they grow up.
At this point of time, I do not know if such thoughts a vengeful although I am still kinda calm. Nor if it is the best way t handle it.
This morning, she was asking me again how do I think of the draft papers? Why do I think it's too simple? I told her it's because it just seems to be a summary of all the items we agreed upon. Then she mentioned her lawyer advised her to keep it that way so everything would not be stone cast and in the event shall there be any changes, we can still further negotiate.
Then I told her fine, just send the official version to my lawyer. If there are any concerns or queries I'll get him to amend. Which again she told me that well this draft will be as good as the official version. Then I told her I'm ok. Just that I find the reason of divorce put forth could be better if it's adultery than irreconcilable difference.
Then she asked me what I meant by adultery. There wasn't such thing. I reminded her. This whole sitch started off with her EA and nonsense and she is telling me there ain't such thing? I am keeping it amicable does not mean there is no closure for me and she can run away from facing it.
I told her when we come to this stage, we have to face what has happened and be responsible for the facts. Not to sugarcoat it and deny of what happened. I also told her that shall one day, if the kids going to ask the reason, I will give them the truth.
Then she asked me if that day comes, can I allow her to be the one to break it to them and I'll fill in the blanks she left out? She feel it will be easier that way. I told her I understand why she will feel it that way but I do not think this situation is easy for anyone especially the kids that have it toughest.
Seriously for the WW.... They screw it up, then they make you the villain to justify themselves and now they thought they are getting away unscathed....
Just the way it is bro...let it roll of your back.
Feelings come and go but unfortunately too many react to what their currently feeling rather than giving time. In this state, poor decisions are made. I think this is why they say to remove all pressure, give space, GAL, and let go. If the WW feels pressured she's going to react based on her emotions...and the circle continues.
jac12 bro, yeah I am letting it slide.
I just sum up the situation like a kid done something wrong, find a scapegoat and then think they can happily gets away with it.
I think everything only starts to sink in for them once the papers is signed.
ToSmile, is your goal to reconcile? If so, you may want to deescalate not escalate.
Threatening to D her for adultery. Threatening to tell the kids about her adultery. None of that will get you where you want to be.
You handled the draft papers perfectly: "Send them over I will have my lawyer look them over." Perfect! But then leave it at that. Even if she comes back with something else.
And guess what? At least in my state, an EA is not considered infidelity. It [censored] but most states have not caught up to the modern world. Or they don't care. Likely the last one. Since most states have moved to no-fault divorces. Which means she could get ridden more than Seattle Slew and it wouldn't matter in the D proceedings.
And it doesn't even help with custody. Judges usually take the attitude that "okay, so you proved she likes sex. That doesn't mean she isn't a good mother." So your righteous indignation over her actions that led to your sitch probably will not matter.
What does matter? How worked up she can still get you over this stuff. How is your detachment coming along?
Hi Steve,
Yes, I do hope to reconcile, but not with whom she is now.
I mentioned that was because somehow I do not want to feel like a push over and she could like get away with it and pretending that everything is all well and fine. However after a while, I kinda cool down and thought about it that there's no point for me to make it difficult for myself too.
Then I messaged her and told her look, I am not trying to make things difficult here or to challenge her to one final fight over the divorce like she mentioned. I was just bringing up the fact and have a proper closure and face what actually happened than sweeping it under the carpet.
I gave her my words that the entire thing will be amicable and I will just look to my lawyer's recommendation. Then she mentioned that she is happy that the whole thing will be amicable and she agreed we should tell the kids when they are matured enough to understand the entire thing.
She asked me to give her a chance to tell the kids first and I fill in the blanks as she feels it will be easier if it comes from her first. To which, I told her I understand why she would think of it that way but the situation will not be easy for anyone, and for the kids the toughest. I know that feeling because I was told that my dad has an active affair that had been going on for decades by my aunt although my parents are still together. That was something really tough to handle. This also made me considered before if I should buried this forever and never tell the kids...
Then after that, she thanked me for the Christmas gifts which the kids got for her that I paid for. Over the weekend I was asking the kids if they like to get something for their mum and instead of keeping it a secret till Christmas, the younger boy let the cat out of the bag. I never intend to get for her anything less her feel the pressure of pursue.
And Christmas eve, she is joining my family at my Aunt's place for a celebration and she volunteer to help me choose something my Aunt likes as after drawing the lots, I am my aunt's Secret Santa.
Sometimes, I do really find it very weird of the way she's getting involved in things and situations and with those around me and pretend like nothing has happened but yet, we are heading for a divorce.
But one thing I noted is that recently, I do get much more pleasant attitude from her. Previously I do sense much defiance from her and for some instances even when her hands were full with stuffs toppling over, she would reject when I offer the gesture just to help. On top of the improvement in communication, this morning she was trying to put on her shoes but with her hands full, she asked for my help to assist with the items first.
I don't quite get worked up with this stuff much more or feel the deep cut like how I used to. The feeling now is more like a parent learning to let go of the kid knowing that he/she will run into the wall but there's nothing I can do about it. Only in this case, it will affect my 2 sons which makes me feel crappy in this situation.
Detachment is fine, just that I need to put more effort in it particularly during this festive seasons where the mood for and as a family is strong. I try to do things which I stopped doing previously. I got a new console for the kids as their early Christmas present and was on it with them at times. Other than that, I try to gather and catch up with my friends (but during such sessions we drink alot) and also trying to get back into the routine to jog as it had been raining almost everyday here.
Now in my mind is the next festive coming up which is the Chinese New Year. I am South East Asian and we have greater celebrations for this than Christmas. There would be alot of gifting to families and reunion events. During previous years, I am the one that took care of all the gifting and expenses for this event. But now I am thinking if we are really heading towards the divorce, I would rather that she make the plan for the financial expenses for her family side and I am not going to turn up for any of the reunion events.
The outcome of that will be very big if I absence for the celebration at her side and her absence at my side. It will be akin to declaring and announcing to all extended family members it is over. So I am contemplating about that now.
ToSmile, one last piece of advice, and then I will let others weigh in. You interact with her WAY too much, and say FAR too much. You need to stop doing that. The less you say, the better. Short, concise messages.
"Send them over I will have my lawyer look them over."
"You're welcome." (For the gifts.)
"When the time comes, we can tell the kids together."
Short. Concise. To the point. Shortcuts the conversation. Avoids a back-and-forth.
My guess? Deep down you think that interacting with her, even negatively, is better than the silence with her. That is an illusion. The less you interact right now the better.
Hi Steve,
Thank you so much for sharing. I will put a conscious note to that and limit my conversation. I think I got carried away and when she initiated something, I just talk too much. Part of my talkative character.
Yesterday she was home surprisingly early, since like for months. When I got home, both kids rushed to me and she was minding her business in the bedroom writing her journal, something which I have not seen her doing for a year. She used to write that when she started her own therapy session just after BD. but I guessed she had also stopped her therapist session. Something she refused to tell me about initially when I check in on her then and I never asked since.
After dinner I got into the bedroom and noticed something was not right. I probed my elder son and then he told me that he had a quarrel with her over some minor matters and the both of them were ignoring each others. I found out what happened started counselling my elder son telling him that the misunderstanding that caused their quarrel stem from good intention and we love him a lot thus the mother's action earlier. Next I told the boy to go hug his mother. The boy cried. And the mother also turned and cried.
This morning, she thanked me for resolving their disagreement. I just told her welcomed. I noted that she had always been getting into frequent argument with the boys. She felt that she knows and is caring for them. However I felt that she has no patience to managing the kids and have unrealistic expectations on them at her current state. Thus I also try to be around as much as I can to negate such occurrence.
Anyone has any advise for me to manage above scenario particularly with the kids getting into conflict with her?
If she goes through with a D, will you be able to be with them 100% of the time they are around her? The answer is, you can't manage her relationship with them. Only her and they can do that. You handled the disagreement very well, didn't take sides and suggested away to diffuse the situation. Well done. But not all of them will be that easy, nor will she appreciate your involvement. So tread lightly.
Hi Steve,
Thanks for the reply. Understand that I will not be able to be always around and they have to form their relationship.
I noted the dynamics between the elder son and her had changed and I am not sure if it's lack of her presence around them that causes it, or her crusade for separation which my Elder son had come to realize and understand what it is about (he's 9 years old), that increases such frequency of disagreement between them both.
He seems short fuse towards her and I am stepping in to prevent any negativity or issue on getting to him from the outcome this situation. One thing is he would not behave towards me like that but would just snap at her. End day no matter what comes, I hope he would still be respectful towards her as a mother.
I do not know if such dynamics is the outcome of my family situation moving more and more towards like a single parent situation (as we used to do everything together but nowdays most of their activity only involve 1 parent). Even if it really ended in divorce, I just want to minimize the hurt/effect on them thus trying to be around them as much as I can.
Perhaps I should seek out some professional support on how to manage them through. I will be meeting my IC next week and see if she has any recommendation for me too.
For now my goal is to speak less, keep my replies short, concise and don't initiate any conversations unnecessarily.
By the way hypothetically speaking, if she gets me a Christmas present, should I get her one too? or I should just say thank and remain at that? Never intend to get her any so to prevent it looking like a pursue.
Latest update.
She has told me that the draft she passed to me will be the terms and conditions for our Divorce. Her Lawyer will not be sending anything to my Lawyer's office. I can just proceed to my Lawyer's Office myself and check if the terms are fine.
If they are, we can just make an appointment with her Lawyer and sign it at her office and the Divorce will be finalized in 3-5 months. Would not even need to attend the court hearing as everything will be handled by her Lawyer.
To which I asked her upon then we will dispose our current house? She mentioned yes. Then I asked if there are any time frame which that has to be done? She mentioned no.
For now, I just replied: ok thanks. I will check with my Lawyer.
Am thinking how should I react to the above as of now. I got the feeling that the ball is "Served into my court" from the above exchange. That instead of her Lawyer serving the official notice to mine, I got to go check with my Lawyer if all is fine and then make an appointment with her to go to her Lawyer's office to sign.
And the open time frame bout disposing the house? I have some questions with that which I will have to clarify with my Lawyer. It would be like if there is no limitation on time frame when we will be disposing the house, I bet shes very likely going to sit on it base on the laziness of the WAW and then really cake eating having the Single status yet enjoying the benefit of family?
I do have the option to contest on her divorce application and drag the finalization of it to wait out the separation period of 3 years. Am considering about that.
Any advise to spare me here vets? Anything would be good in how I should take it from here or behave.
TS,
My advice to you is that if the terms are acceptable to you to agree to it and get the process rolling. To me there is nothing worse then living with someone who wants a divorce. It's not good for anybody.
One thing I have learned from this entire process is that when someone no longer sees you as a valuable person you remove them from your life as soon as possible.
TS,
Completely agree with all LH said.
The whole quote "She has told me that the draft she passed to me will be the terms and conditions for our Divorce." rubs me wrong though. Don't let her bully or control you, but yeah if you and your atty agree it's a good deal, the quicker you can get her out of your life the better.
-B
Hi Guys,
Thanks for the reply. I've called up my Lawyer but he's having year end holiday and likely will be meeting him beginning next year.
He browsed through the draft which I forwarded to him and he flagged out with regards to the maintenance which I will be paying to her in perpetual or until she is remarried. It was just a nominal sum which I input previous but he seems to have some concern on that. Well will follow up with him when he is back.
Just last this weekend, she was still asking if I am going over to her side for the weekly dinner. I told her no. Previously I had already mentioned to her that as we are processing for the D, I will no longer go over to her place anymore. I would not want her family to have any false hope. And yet she is asking me that.
I wonder really what is going on in her mind and if she knows the seriousness of all these.
The other funny thing is she is still carrying out home improvement stuffs during this period such as planting & potting, getting a cpu fixed up for the kids and such.
Sometimes I wonder if I am dealing with a mentally ill or a WW.
Do not get her a Christmas gift. She fired you as her H, and that is something a H would do. If she gives you one I would consider not accepting it. "I didn't think we were exchanging gifts this year, so I cannot accept this." If she insists, thank her in a gracious manner, and then do not open it in front of her.
Sometimes I wonder if I am dealing with a mentally ill or a WW.
There are almost no differences. Mental illness results in a person that is completely different than the person you knew. Guess what, waywardness results in the same exact thing.
Some stuffs happened earlier that made me snapped and lost my sh*t at her. I just regret that it was in front of the children but she really crossed the line.
Yesterday she brought the children over to her mother place for dinner and I was out GAL. By the time I came back, I saw everyone was sleeping and thus I thought it was a fine night except that she seems not to be feeling well with a few coughs through the night. This morning, she called in sick And mentioned she will not be going to work.
I was back during lunch to get food for the children and then back in the evening after work. Then, I was hinted by helper to be at home more often and be around with the kids. Something happened yesterday after they return from MIL place. I got my elder son over and asked him what happened? He started to narrate to me and broke down.
They got into a quarrel with the mother because they were playing with the console and phone when they were at the mother in law place. Then the mother gave him the silent treatment on the way back. And when they were home, they requested to play the console again but the mother does not allow. Then she got angry at them because “she was not feeling well” and pulled the trick which my mother did to her when she was a child and was so affected by.
She packed her bag threatening to leave the house. The elder one was shaken by it so much he went to the kitchen to take a knife and wanted to kill himself. Then she saw it and came back to stop him.
I was furious by this and tried to hold back. After a while when I got out to the living room, I saw the elder one sitting there with his dinner which he had only a plate of white rice and nothing else. No side dishes and such. I asked him what happened then he told me he is having an ulcer thus he is just taking plain rice. I guess something else and I took him to the dining table and my wife gave me a dirty look.
I could not take it anymore and start to confront her if the incident the day before. She relate what the elder one said, tried to justify that she was not feeling well and omitting the knife portion. I questioned her about it and told her that she is treating them like how her mother did to her and dumping her emotional baggage on them. Then she tried to challenge me saying I am the one who knows all and always the best. I told her there is no one who is the best and we are all learning to handle them. But her problem is she think she is always right and shoot others down. She is not fit to be a mother. Which decent mum will push a kid to such edge that he wanted to knife himself? The kids started crying at the table, we got into a staring match before she left the table to the study room and cry.
I told the kids it’s not their fault and they should never pull such self harming stance again. If there is anything and I am not around, just call me. The elder one then left the table and went to the bedroom to look for his mother. When I went in to look for him, she was hugging him and he was crying saying he does not want any of us to leave him. Then I told my wife u hear it from the horse mouth and so much thanks to your conditioning to the children about separation. You are affecting them but you refuse to acknowledge. I consoled him saying we all loves him and it saddened us that’s did such a thing.
Then he got over, I hugged him and he told me that he wanted me to tuck him in to sleep. Which I did so for him and the younger one before turning in because I am also running a fever. But now it is 2:35am at my place and I woke up with so much anger it is kind of eating me up. I am also considering to challenge the 50/50 custody previously agreed and limit her from overnight access to the children. Because she simply does not has the capability or patience for them. Most of the time when I am not around, they will erupt into a quarrel.
Considering such an incident happened yesterday and she was still quiet about it, really so much for co parenting for the best interest of the children. I am really so mad about it.
The action of wayward really reflects the dark side of humanity. Particularly those that you watch in TV or movie which you may think its being dramatized, until encountering it first hand.
After the previous day episode, the wife brought the kids out for a while yesterday morning and then got back and rest at home the whole day as she was not feeling well. And she was accompanying the kids when I got home yesterday night with some mini games. I wonder if it was for show because they know I was returning home to prove that she is not what I claim her to be or genuinely be with the kids.
This morning as I was leaving the house, she was telling me that she will be going over to stay at her friend's place for today and tomorrow. Just 2 days after she threatened to pack and leave and the reaction from the elder boy. I have no words for her. I just replied Ok.
I would need to really spend more time with the kids.
The MIL called late last night and the kids picked up the phone. She was asking where them mum was and the kids told her that the mum went to stay at her friend's house. Then the MIL asked to speak to me.
On the line, the MIL jumped and asked me why I did not stop her from going and why I allow her to go? And what actually happened. I told the MIL please go and ask your daughter. But she keep probe and probe and said the daughter told her to come ask me and I said fine. And I pour all out to her. The draft paper and what happen to the kiddos.
Then the MIL start to blame the "bad company" the daughter is with. I told the mum looked, there's no one to blame but your daughter. But anyway it's pointless. To me she's a goner and sh has crossed the line. I am considering to mount up the defense on access by her. She can see the kids anytime she wants but no overnight and oversea access. Initially the MIL was still trying to blame me why I did not let her know of such events? I told her she should have asked her daughter, not me. After hearing everything, she thank me and said she will go think of what to do. I also dunno what else to reply her.
I wake up so emotionally drained this morning and tired. I was still enjoying my time with the 2 chaps until this phone call came and messed the night up. It's really tiring.
The wife had kept a shared journal and left it in the open.
I flip it and indeed she noted down that day's incident. She was finding reason to justify herself and claiming that I am not listening to what she said (well I did probe what went on that lead to the knife incident... and allowed her to speak first before I start)
Then she starts to state that everyone is ignoring her. The kids does not care about her when they were playing their console (while she's the one hiding in the room on her phone?) and what good am I that apart getting breakfast for the kids and going exercise.... and becoming an Alpha male???
While she always has to be the bad person disciplining the kids while I play the good guy? (When she is always away?)
And when we went out I walk in front of her when we are going to retrieve the car and never care about her? while in fact she was just 2-3 steps behind me and she mentioned even friends walk side by side? (All after she serves me paper?)
That I am becoming a perfect father because she wants to divorce me (Well I am just stepping up and filling in her part to the kids)
Next she claim that she at times were still thinking if she made the right choice to divorce me and all these seems to justify it.
Geez. From what I see is for whatever things other does, she can find something to dig fault in it and for everything she does is like a holy gesture.
It is sad to see her like this. But nothing more. Somehow or rather the weekend's incident snatched the remaining rope from the hand...
Quit reading her journal. If she leaves it out on the table then just walk on by. If you need to make the table to eat or whatever then close the journal and set it aside without reading it. Remember Sandi's rules, don't believe anything she says (or writes) and only half of what she does. She's confused and in turmoil, her stream-of-consciousness is not grounded in reality.
Dear Veterans,
What are your takes on gatherings and festive reunion celebrations in face of impeding divorce?
1. Go ahead if you just feel it like without any expectation
2. Avoid it totally
Looking for some opinions. I am not sure if there are some changes going on but I am still doing my detachment and keeping my distance. I intend to still do so and sit by the banks than threading into murky water.
Some of these events happened the past couple of days.
For her work, she had been relocated to another institution that is very near to our place.
1. On a weekday drive to work, she suddenly mentioned about her colleague whom bought her car together with us had changed to a new car. Seems better and etc. I told her I ever thought of changing too in the past.
If she wanted to change to a new car, it is ok to proceed. Then she mentioned she will consider after the divorce process and subjected to where she lives post divorce. Then I told her yeah, you decide yourself then.
2. I threw a party over the weekend at the request of my children to invite all family members (including the in laws). I left the invitation of her family to her. At first she seem reluctant to invite her family members. But in the end, she extended the invitation to them although they could not make it as a couple of them fell sick due to the weather.
In the beginning she intended to prepare a dish for the event (I was doing the rest of the cooking). However after knowing her parents are not coming, she starts to mention that there seems to be too much food. I told her well, if you don't intend to prepare the dish, it's fine. I will replace it with something else. To which, she never provided me a reply.
The next day waking up in the morning, I asked her one more time. So you sure you are not preparing the dish? Then I will not be getting those ingredients. She kept quiet again. Until a while later then she asked me: "Why you don't want me to prepare the dish?"
I replied: "Well I thought you no longer want to do it. But if you want to, I'll just get the ingredients." Then she said ok yeah she will be preparing the dish. She was just thinking that the kitchen would be too crowded with the preparation and such. I told her well, what time you would need the kitchen and I will just pass it to you. She told me the time and I kept it at that.
3. Initially she told me that she will be going out in the evening at the time we are having the house party. I told her sure go ahead. I was expecting her to skip the party totally. But later, she actually stayed for a while and wait till everyone is here, ate some stuffs and mingle with them. Then as she was leaving, she asked me if she could grab some of the dish she prepared to her friend's party for them to try? I told her by all means go ahead. (Rarely she told me where she is going to but she mentioned this time round)
4. Yesterday, I intended to bring the kids out for an evening stroll when she suddenly mentioned that there is a gathering at her friend's place. She would like to bring the kids there and if I would like to join? I agreed might as well because I was intending to spend some time with the kids too.
As we were preparing to leave the house, she was getting a bit impatient as I was using the dressing room and she wanted to retrieve something. Then she asked me why I felt like going with them? I can choose not to go.( To think she was the one who asked me if I wanted to go?)
To which, I replied her: "I am going with you'll because I have originally intended to spend time with the kids and I am going for them. If you can handle them, sure by all means go ahead. I'm going to make my own plans." Then she switch around and said "well since you already wanted to go, lets just go together." I just smile at her and left the room.
Then we left the house and got into the elevator with the kids and I put on a new pair of shades I got. I was someone whom never wear any shades previously and I got a pair as part of my GAL. Then in front of the kids, she tried to make some funny remarks about me wearing shades. I told her: "Well, you may have your own prerogatives. To each their own." I think that caught her in surprise too and stopped her comments.
5. After the gathering, she told me that she and her friends are planning a family trip which include all kids sometime next year and asked if I would like to join them? I told her well, should be fine. Just let me know when it is. Surprised she asked me. More expecting that she will say she is going for a trip with the kids and leave it as that.
6. She posted some photos of the gatherings during this festive period which she joined with my family and my close friends on her social media. Something which she had not done since BD. Also, She used to keep her hair long because her mum likes her with that. Before BD, she cut her hair short and maintained it all the way during this period. Yesterday I overheard her friend asking if she is growing back her tress and she mentioned yeah she is.
7. On NYE, we will be having a gathering at her brother's place. I had told her previously that after the gathering, I will be bringing the kids to my cousin's place as she invited us. Then earlier, she came to ask me again if I did mention I have another party after her brother's place? I told her yes I did. My cousin invited and I am bringing along the kids. If she likes to, she can join us. Then she replied: "Oh, ok. She forgot I mentioned that." Leaving it open that she might be joining us? I was kind of expecting a "you guys go ahead"
Things felt slightly different after the incident which my boy threatened to kill himself. I do not know if the event had cause some cracks on her shell or she is just swirling in the fog. It also seems like she is having amnesia about things now and then.
Any comments about the above occurrence?
TS,
I don’t think anything changed other then the fact that she is ok being friends with you after divorce. By the time of BD WWs are detached because they have usually been detaching for years. Imagine if you were 100% detached. You wouldn’t mind having your W on a family vacation right? Instead of of jumping at the crumb you should have said “we are not a family anymore so there won’t be anymore family vacations”.
I know it’s easy to look for any signs but as is often said here “actions not words”. D papers are an action. Has she stopped them?
Sorry man.
Thanks for pointing that out LH
Noted it.
This period, things has been pretty peaceful. With the children, we are good but when the children are asleep or what, we just mind our own business.
This morning, I informed her that the arrangement of counselling for the kids is underway and it should starts in a couple of weeks.
Also, I told her my Lawyer has some concern with the divorcing terms. With regards to the part on the Token Alimony and children access. I initiate the talk because previously, I told her that I will be meeting my lawyer in Jan and I do not want her to feel that I am dragging the process.
She told me that if I do not feel like giving her Alimony, it is fine with her. And what do I mean by children access? Am I going to stop her from seeing the children?
I told her no. She will have free access to the children anytime but not overnight and oversea access. I told her reason is I also don't think its healthy for the kids to keep moving and shuffling between 2 homes and also she always wanted to go out during the weekends. How is she going to look after them?
Then she said well if she has something on she will inform me and make arrangements. I just smile and say I would have my own plans and life then. Anyway, this was advised by my lawyer in my interest which I am still considering.
Then she said ok and I bid bye to her and leave for work.
Is such a response above fine?
TS,
Thanks great about alimony! Definitely take her up on that offer.
What do you mean she will have access to the kids anytime? Is this not a joint custody arrangement?
Hi LH,
At where we are, there's 2 portion to the kids. One is Custody and one is access.
Custody will cover the major decision making for the children while access governs the visitation.
For Access, there are overnight access and overseas access as well. But I am intending to block the overnight and overseas access for her.
For custody wise, it will be joint custody. She is welcomed to visit the kids anytime but I do not think she has the capability or capacity to care for them now. Perhaps until the kids are older and can manage themselves then we'll see.
One funny episode recently was, previously, there was the hitting the dog incident that I mentioned. Then there was this time at my in law place, she was the one who could not stand the dog peeing and pooping everywhere and she herself hit the dog. And my mil was screaming at her after that. Then later, the dog did it again and she asked me to hit the dog but I just ignore it.
Interestingly since then till now, things are rather peaceful and she's getting more conversational with me and talking to me in a more proper and respectful manner. I have arranged counselling for the children and she seems more involved and want to be part of it and had been discussing with me on how we can guide our children in their day to day life and etc.
Although these are welcomed, I am still maintaining my mentality in GAL, exercise and dropping the rope. I would not take any pursuing action or show affection until she steps up and apologize, accept my conditions and work on it. Had a short chat with my MIL the other day. She also echoed my stand that I have to set conditions for her daughter if she is coming back.
Is the above the way to handle? if the fog starts to dismiss abit?
Hi Everyone,
It's been a while, hope everyone is doing well in the midst of this Pandemic.
Much had happened the past 6 months. My grandfather passed away, my mum went for an operation, but me and my wife has yet divorced 🤣
We are still staying together under the same roof but much less talking to each other. The last time she brought up about the papers was in march. Then, she told me that she did not raise about the subject was because my Grandfather passed away and my mum just had an operation. I told her well, that should not be the deterring factor and if she wish to go ahead, just let my Lawyer know.
Then she mentioned she was giving me some time to think (As I am intending to refuse the overnight and oversea access for her to the children). I told her what's my concern is the transition of the children and I had previously arranged counselling for them but it had to stop due to this pandemic. I told her that she might as well also use the time to consider about her decision.
Next, lock down was implemented in April. It was alright the first 2 weeks until one evening she was talking to me very rudely at the dining table. I told my stand and told her that she does not need to speak to me like that. The messaged could be conveyed at a much proper tone. Then she stomped off. At first she intended to pack her bags but I guess there's no where for her to move to due to the lock down situation. Then, she moved out of our bedroom into the study room.
Ever since her move, our 2 kids took turns to accompany us on alternate nights. Each of them will be with us for one night in the same room and rotate with the other. They were understanding in doing that. However, my wife staying in the study room inconvenient everyone because my helper could not carry on her chores there in the morning (as my wife always slept till late). Thus, I told my wife if she wish to move back into the bedroom, she can because it has been causing inconvenience for the rest. But she mentioned she is happy being at the study room. So I left her as it is.
Recently, the journal was left on the table again. And in it, I saw her writing about asking a close friend of her's about her opinion of me. The close friend was telling my wife that I am not a sincere person. I am a person who is very good at planning and managing projects and I am taking our marriage like a project and going through the motion and flow. Albeit feeling absurb, I just smile and close it. The last time I met this "closed" friend of her's was 6-7 years back? And I never really held a long conversation with her before. mostly was just hi and bye kind of thing. This closed friend herself is single (her fiance walked out from the engagement more than 10 years ago) and she was the one whom suggested to my wife that we should go for marriage counselling 8-9 years ago even without me knowing it "Shrugz"
Geez. Supposedly someone who "knows" you so well even though you'll don't know her. And she was encouraging my wife to look for someone else but told her to find herself first before she starts doing so.
Nowdays I am still taking things light. Still exercising, spending time with my kids but I seem to start having problem with drinking. Realized that I am on 6 packs every night and when evening comes, I just felt like drinking to make myself happier. Can't do much due to the lockdown and just work in a room during the day, work out and sneak for a drink at night.
For her, she started to rearrange the furniture in the study into a mess and start painting some walls of the house to touch up from the aging stage. Lesser being away but sometimes she sneaks out for a couple of hours. Meeting her friends and also bringing my children's toy model to a "friend" to fix it up for them. And this friend is so nice to even pick her up even though she is asking him a favour to fix the model.
I don't know. I do feel what I had for her seems to be wearing off too. Many a times after I finished drinking, I felt like just calling the lawyer to serve her the papers. But I also told myself not to make any decisions or do anything during intoxication for that would not be the best judgement made. I used to thought that I do not mind standing to wait. But as I try to love myself more, I am also not allowing myself to be treated in manners she used to treat me...
ToSmile, welcome back, and sorry things are still a struggle. My only advice for you right now? Stop drinking. Do it for your kids if not for yourself. As a former alcoholic I can tell you that drinking alone is a huge red-flag. And I cannot tell you how much better my life has been in the decades since I gave up alcohol.