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Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5

Posted By: IHCLACS

Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 07/30/19 04:08 PM

Old Thread. http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2855638#Post2855638
Posted By: AnotherStander

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 07/30/19 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by IHCLACS
No offense taken AS ;-) Just curious why it was perceived that way? I was short and in a hurry because of work. New thread started


Sounds like I just misinterpreted, sometimes it's hard to tell over the Internet. Sometimes I run across my own messages days or weeks later and think "wow that sounds so much different than it did when I was typing it" smile
Posted By: IHCLACS

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 07/30/19 08:23 PM

Yeah I understand that AS. There have been times where W texted me and I took it offensively the way was typed out. Sometimes it came across as a demand from her but then when I discuss it with her later that wasn't her intention. I know a lot of people including myself to come across that way sometime in text just because we're in a hurry to get a message out, and don't reread how we come across other people. Reading social cues when people mean well and want to give positive criticism versus them taking a jab at you is also a lost art in interpreting. I kind of come from a long line of argumentive defensive Misfits, and I always try to be the better example out of all of them. Depends on how defensive of someone is. My younger brother you can't tell him anything even if it's for his own good. I have those Tendencies sometimes as well but I try and hear what the other person trying to tell me before I react on something. Something I've been aware of probably since my adolescence. That and improving on my toneality when I speak with people. I used to have a really big chip on my shoulder and I've adjusted accordingly as I've gotten older, but there is always room for improvement and handling things correctly and then emotionally volatile situation. Divorce is new waters for me, because usually when relationships end you just walk away and that's it. but divorce I'm aware I'm still going to see this person for the rest of my life as long as my son is alive. So I have to be pleasant and civil, as long as I'm not getting disrespected or railroaded in the process, I will do my best to keep it that way.
Posted By: IHCLACS

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 08/02/19 06:26 PM

Ready for the irony? We are both going back and forth deciding whether to divorce or not. She doesn't trust me, doesn't believe I can change, one day is fine with me, the next day just totally resents me, is guarded, has walls up, has no romantical feelings, cannot be vulnerable, will not work on the M, just wants her space and me out of the house and out of sight out of mind, so she can start "working on herself" more since she can't with me in the house. She is starting the refi. Now for the irony....Our first mediation appointment is on our 10th Wedding Anniversay. August 13th. I know everyone here is going to tell me not to do it and rightfully so. But I am tempted to get her an anniversary card as a 180. But im probably not. Opinions?
Posted By: Steve85

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 08/02/19 06:44 PM

Go ahead and get her a card.

IHC, you seem to be around her an awful lot. How is GAL going?
Posted By: Wolfman

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 08/04/19 01:48 AM

Originally Posted by IHCLACS
She doesn't trust me, doesn't believe I can change, one day is fine with me, the next day just totally resents me, is guarded, has walls up, has no romantical feelings, cannot be vulnerable, will not work on the M, just wants her space and me out of the house and out of sight out of mind, so she can start "working on herself" more since she can't with me in the house. She is starting the refi. Now for the irony....Our first mediation appointment is on our 10th Wedding Anniversay. August 13th. I know everyone here is going to tell me not to do it and rightfully so. But I am tempted to get her an anniversary card as a 180. But im probably not. Opinions?


IH I mean seriously are we married to the same person. 15th anniversary is August 7. I feel the same way to I even mention that itís our anniversary? Probably not. Itís a shame that our wives canít see the big picture, they are so stuck on the past and believe no one can change in their life is ridiculous. The other thing is do they believe we canít change or do they just say that in their mind to justify their actions? For the mere fact that they have changed, from being out loving wife to hating us should prove to them that people change all they have to do is look in the mirror. But that will never happen.
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 08/04/19 02:26 AM

Originally Posted by Wolfman
Originally Posted by IHCLACS
She doesn't trust me, doesn't believe I can change, one day is fine with me, the next day just totally resents me, is guarded, has walls up, has no romantical feelings, cannot be vulnerable, will not work on the M, just wants her space and me out of the house and out of sight out of mind, so she can start "working on herself" more since she can't with me in the house. She is starting the refi. Now for the irony....Our first mediation appointment is on our 10th Wedding Anniversay. August 13th. I know everyone here is going to tell me not to do it and rightfully so. But I am tempted to get her an anniversary card as a 180. But im probably not. Opinions?


IH I mean seriously are we married to the same person. 15th anniversary is August 7. I feel the same way to I even mention that itís our anniversary? Probably not. Itís a shame that our wives canít see the big picture, they are so stuck on the past and believe no one can change in their life is ridiculous. The other thing is do they believe we canít change or do they just say that in their mind to justify their actions? For the mere fact that they have changed, from being out loving wife to hating us should prove to them that people change all they have to do is look in the mirror. But that will never happen.
IH, Wolf, my 15th wedding anniversary is in a few weeks as well. I was thinking a simple ďHappy AnniversaryĒ text. Maybe not until late morning or early afternoon to see if she sends something first. I recall reading a post from AnotherStander where he took his W out for dinner while DBing but he had moved on emotionally and had zero expectations as he was already moving through the D process.

Another text possibility: ďThe first X years of our marriage were amazing, the last year has been absolute hell, happy anniversary!Ē Just kidding, wouldnít recommend sending that unless you want to fast track the D.
Posted By: LH19

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 08/04/19 01:06 PM

Curtis when I read these posts by you it really concerns me about your well being. You want to text your W "Happy Anniversary" WTF? Are you going to send her flowers too? The term "Happy Anniversary" implies your Anniversary is happy times. Come on man please please please start to respect yourself.

I wish AS wouldn't have posted that. You're no where near where he was at and at the time he had zero knowledge of another male. Neither of you have come close to moving on emotionally and would have 100% expectations.
Posted By: IHCLACS

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 08/26/19 11:00 AM

Been quiet for a while because things are so ridiculous. Irony of Anniversary date last week. W goes to Dietary Weight Loss Program night before 10th anniversary date, gets Burger King afterwards, gets sick at both ends and food poisoning at stroke of midnight on anniversary date. I made sure she was ok, brought her water, plastic bags, paper towels, etc, made sure she got whatever was needed. Checked in on her again at 4am before leaving for work to make sure if I had to watch S1 or not since she felt ill. Wished her a happy anniversary anyway, we both laughed at the irony of it since she had come full circle. (She threw up the night I proposed to her from too much champagne 11 years ago.)

Had mediation last week. She made her intentions clear she wanted to move BIL into our home from Pittsburgh soon to compensate rent for mortgage, and for him to help with home renovations, since I refused to compleyr because both BIL's stuck their hands in my work, ripped some of it out, and left my tools all a mess all over the garage. Left stuff all over yard, which I haven't touched or have moved in two months. (Didn't state by what timeline and whether I would be out of home or in it. More on this later.) (First I heard of this, but anticipated it.)

Mediator was pushing for divorce to make things leagally binding. We both decided we would make that decision when physically apart and seperated. Even the mediator told W, she needs to get her financial ducks in a row, and is taking a lot of debt risk with refi and her revolving debts, equity, debt consolidation, plus payout/buyout and just attempting to give me a $5k advance as incentive, and not full split of equity until 2020. W drew up rough draft PSA agreement which we both revised a few times. I changed myself from Respondant to Petitioner, and gave myself a reasonable date of November 30th to be moved out. She changed it to Oct.30th and wants my stuff moved out by Sept 30th.

PSA:
Respondent will remain in the family home, located at XXXXX, until
the property is sold in 2020. The Respondent agrees to list the family home for sale with a realtor of her
choice by and no later than April 30, 2020. The Respondent agrees to pay all expenses associated with
living in the home, including but not limited to the mortgage payments, taxes, insurance, utility bills, and
maintenance costs.
The parties agree that the current value of the equity in the homestead will be determined by a home
appraisal that will be paid for by the Respondent at the time of submitting an application for refinance.
The current equity of the home, to be determined by the appraisal, will be split evenly between both the
Petitioner and the Respondent. The Respondent has agreed to pay for the Petitioner's share of joint
credit card consolidated debt in the amount of _______, in addition to a partial payment of $5,000.00
on October 30th, 2019 with the understanding that the Petitioner will be moved out and have his
personal belongings removed from the family home at XXXX into his own personal residence
by, and no later than October 30th, 2019. If the Petitioner chooses to remain in the homestead until this
date, the Petitioner agrees to pay rent in the amount of $1200.00 for the month of October, 2019 due
on October 1, 2019. The Petitioner also agrees that all personal belongings will confined to his
bedroom, the garage, and the backyard shed. Furthermore, any items outside of these areas will need
to be removed from the homestead or put into the aforementioned spaces within the home by
September 30, 2019. The Petitioner agrees to sign a quitclaim for the property deed to the family home
at XXXX on October 30, 2019. At the time that this signature is complete,
the Petitioner will receive the partial buyout payment of $5,000.00 from the Respondent.
Upon the sale of the family home, the Petitioner's remaining equity in the amount of _______ will be
paid by the Respondent. If the Respondent chooses or is required to remain in the homestead, the
Respondent will be expected to pay the Petitioner the remaining equity payment no later than August 2020.

Mediator gave us financial software portal login info and CIS intake form for consideration of all expenses, marital asset and liabilities.

Been having fun with the kid doing small things, day trips, going to Wal-Mart, Ice Cream, Etc. W has been going on vacation a lot this summer since she is off from work as teacher/behavioral specialist. 4 day beach trips, amusement parks with friends, more weekly beach trips, going out doing her own GAL. Ordering more and more personal crap online to the house. Tried having yet another talk, and understanding of what she's going through two weeks ago just before mediation. She felt my attempt to understand and validate was disingenuous. Oh well...

Here are the two kicks to the nut$ as of recently. She came up short for month of Aug, had absolutely no money since she doesn't get paid throughout summer. Back in Feb, we agreed to put aside OUR combined tax monies for covering bills through June-Aug. She changed the game and her responses on that as of recently. Used up all tax monies on "bills" and other "expenses" † Actually applied for additional lines of personal credit and was denied due to having high multiple revolving balances. So I confronted her about why she didn't have the money for Aug for joint bills and mortgage for August. And even though it's not any of my business anymore, that she apparently had the money to be making all these trips and buying all these smalls things, personal care products, all these summer trips, etc. She told me that her friends and her parents were picking up most of the tabs on these things. I verified otherwise according to statements and invoices I seen on the dining room table that were billed to her credit card. So she may have lied exaggerated the truth on some of that.

I've been making good money this summer bustung my butt with OT. I fronted her $4000 to cover all joint expenses and mortgage for month of Aug in agreement that I wouldn't be making any contributions for the month of September. I get a polite thank you.

Since was paying into my own health† insurance, but had a extremely high deductible on mental health, and she was paying to also keep me on her's as well for mental health coverage purposes, which I terminated last month. Just after I floated her the $4000. for Aug expenses then the very next day I get this email:

"One of the only remaining balances we need to settle is for your share of health insurance. For January- August, insurance cost $354.88/ each per month if split evenly for our own share plus S1 (($709.76 total/month). For January-June, you owed $2129.28 before deducting your half of the tax return which was $1712.47/each. So, the remaining balance that you owe me is $416.81- $75 that I used from the joint account last month for gas and groceries. So, your final amount owed is $341.81. Let me know if you have any questions."

I figure ok that's fair to ask that. Tasteless and tactless but fair. I haven't paid her the remaining balances on it but will. (Still tactless considering I just bailed her out for Aug, used my savings and potential future rent deposit, and now have to make it up in Sept. Plus she used half of my tax return to deduct what "I owe her" as a way of her saying "hey I already spent your half of the tax money, I'm still broke, and I need more liquidy from you.")

Since she doesn't speak with me unless absolutely necessary, and I keep insisting that we do not have conversations because of our inability to communicate, to keep it to email for accountability reasons. I emailed her two weeks in advanced on S1 audiologist audiologist doctor's appointment for S1 since we wanted to have his hearing tested because of his lack of response to certain things asking to keep me updated via email, and not by verbal interaction because we have severe communication issues.

I sent this on 08/06:

H: Please keep me posted on S1 current pediatric appointments, hearing and attention assessment, and further hearing, motor, or other functionary referrals as discussed.

W: She replied back "Will do" 08/06 but never got back to me with a specific date and time of appointment. Then this Monday night August 19th she told me about S1's appointment the next day at 5 p.m. I argue that I wasn't notified of a specific date and time and she never got back to me via email. Then she goes into blame shifting mode, gaslights me, and blames it on my memory, and that's not her fault that I can't remember conversations that she thinks she has had with me but never did. I tell her no these are conversations that never took place, and this is the exact reason why I keep emphasizing email communications only for the last several months. If I don't receive a response via email than that conversation didnt take place as far as I'm concerned. Follow the protocol. I told her that I'm not doing this anymore, and I'm not arguing with her, not being gas lit, or blamed for conversations that never took place. I'm not having anymore verbal conversations with her over logistics for this exact reason.

Because of the last-minute appointment notification interfere with me straightening up the yard for the appraiser her appraiser to come the next day.

Email: W: Just an fyi,† The appraisal is scheduled for this Wednesday afternoon. If there is any way you can strain up the yard, id appreciate it.

H: Your push mower is in the front yard, and some weeds can get pulled if you want to get started. I would appreciate it.

H: The yard is going to have to stay the way it is since until Thurs since it is at conflict with S1 5pm audioligist appointment which is more important to me. Which I was just now notified the date and time the night before after several email and verbal requests for date and time.

I am unable to communicate efficiently with you regarding S1 well being, appointments, finances, and other pertinent subjects from conversations that never took place, or partially took place verbally between us and left open ended,† due to lack of written response on your part, or you're memory loss.

Please stick to the plan of email for all future events and requests. It is what works for both of us right now. I can take care of a portion of the yard Thurs or this weekend.

Thanks.

Another added expense and issue coming up is daycare for Sept. For S1 since MIL is unable to watch him since she has cancer again and is going through chemo. We are anti-vaxxers so that also became an issue. She has appointments with three different facilities today. She got a little arrogant in email yesterday because she had to make 4 phone calls for child care.

This is the response I get:

W: I just scheduled three tours of daycare centers for tomorrow, 8/23.
1. XXX AT XXX† At 9:30 am
11:30 am

2.) XXX at XXX At 11:30

3. XXX at XXX at 1:15pm

I'm still waiting to hear back from one more day care center in XXX called XXX.

H: Ok. But does it do any good to schedule 3 day care centers tours? Unless all of them have vaccination exemptions? I'm missing info from you here. Do all 3 have vaccination exemptions? What is tuitions costs? Travel/Convenience time frames, etc? I would prefer to make a logical decision that suits all all 3 needs.

W: They all accept religious exemptions. Its too much info to share by email, so ill fill you in after work.

H: No thank you. Email only of intineary and details. I don't want to be accused of not remembering conversations that never took place.

Its simple...3 places... Vaccination Exemptions (All three established.) Hours of care....(7:30am to 4pm I presume.) Cost per month with potential deposit fees, miles/distance/convenience from primary residence. Unless there are some perks/care/educational advantages that one place has over another for S1?

W: Any other information you are welcome to research on your own. I've done beyond my share already. And you're welcome btw.

H: Ok thank you for taking the time to expedite that. I appreciate you doing that. Those were my next questions, the tuition rates for XXX and XXX

I noticed XXX is a bit further and a bit more expensive. We can potty train S1 jointly. No need for it in child care.† Please let me know how you feel about your experience and advantages/disadvantages tomorrow after your tours.

H: Oh by the way that's $3,500.00 that I fronted of you for the mortgage and utilities for this month. Even though it was an equal exchange for next month. That was my security deposit for an apartment. You're welcome too by the way.

W: I said thank you for that already, but thanks again.

So I get home after GAL last night. Appraisal was Weds. (No mention of it from W.) Im setting up a new trampoline I got for S1. We both apologised for being snickity in email after I asked for an apology, was having fun with S1 on trampoline. I inquire how appraisal went and status of refi. She's still waiting on it, then goes to inform me that BIL has job interview locally next week, wants to know if he could sleep over, and if I could get a move on in getting a few of my things out of the basement (Most of stuff is hers except books of mine and couches.) So she can move him in two weeks if he gets the job interview. He's recently divorced after a year, and moving from Pittsburgh to help W, MIL, and FIL with Cancer and Dementia, which I totally understand. I haven't seen BIL since Christmas since him and his XW stayed over. Normally I'd be totally cool with him staying there and hanging out with him but since our separation, and him and other BIL putting hands on my work in home, ripping out my electrical, I'm not comfortable with it. I stated to W I'm not comfortable with him living in home until I move out. But even though she's an equal shareholder in the house so am I and I'm not comfortable with it. Already too much tension and awkwardness.

I refuse to play the victim role but, lately I've taken on the mindset of where I am to a point where so many lines have been crossed, and even though it's my own perception of my own feelings and I need to deal with them. There's been so much inconsideration, lack of communication, blaming, push for her agenda on her part, that I am treated like a stranger in my own home. Its disrespectful. Her actions are disrespectful. She's a phony with niceties. Even though her demeanor most of the time is amicable and pleasant, with occasional resentment and blaming. With friends like that who needs enemies? In her mind she probably doesn't like hearing the word NO when she doesn't get what she wants when she wants, and probably thinks im being difficult out of spite, when I'm just protecting myself. Is pushing her narrative to get me out of the house as soon as possible, and is even sending me emails for apartments to rent in the area like she's trying to help me out. She makes decisions without my input on joint things, sometimes tries to talk to me, but still pushes her own narritive without any consideration to my situation as a result of her actions, all while acting like she's doing me a big favor every time she executes something without my input, and think a she is "saving me the trouble." I feel like a jerk afterwards for continually stopping her, and pointing it out when she starts telling me what I should do, and how I should do it, and making decisions for me, and I try to keep it as polite as possible, but its unsolicited decisions and advice and assumption that she knows what is best for me to be rude, although unintentional.

Her story and internal narritive changes constantly. Her answers and decisions change constantly. Surprises pop up left and right every week between us. Communication is poor if none at all. Still emotionally guarded, still pushing the emotional abuse narritive. Doesn't talk about nothing but logistics, goes out of her way to ignore me. Doesn't want to reconcile, won't accept apologies, is leaning heavily towards divorce but hasn't decided until seperated. Still reading self help books on such, being single, co dependency, narcissist abuse, how to be happy. Buying more and more perfumes, Spa treatments, nails every two weeks, new see through underwear and lingerie purchases, tons of new makeup purchases, a few new revealing clothes, (All out of character from past behaviors.) Personal Feminine Lubrication products in travel bags, new revealing swimsuits, affirmations like.††††† " I'm committed to the process of finding the real me." over and over again 50 times daily. ( Looks like something out of The Shining, where Jack Nicholson writes all work and no play makes Jack a Dull Boy.) Is constantly glued to her phone and is constantly on Facebook Messenger for whatever reasons. I'm still kind of pisses by her recent actions, but I need to accept it for what it is and move on.

Red flags galore of someone in MLC, MLT, cheating, preparing to cheat, or wanting to cheat, and either has already had the opportunity of is looking for it. IMO Might just be my own insecurities of trivial items and even though this is no evidence of such. The treatment like im a stranger, the obsessive reality tv shows, fantasies of life after divorce, house sale, debt consolidation, rv traveling across the country with a 2 yr.old. potentially moving to Iowa ( debt that she created over $50k from.) (She slowly learning what reality is going to be like as a result of her actions.) from equity of selling home, her obsessive phone habits, her GAL, the poor communication, tit for tat, expectations of me to share responsibilities which she doesn't want to take herself, but occaisionally shows initiative, complaints about equality. (Spends tons of money on weight loss programs but never takes initiative to use them or self disciplines. She thinks the programs and the principles are going to do the work for her and has always been this way except on 3 occasions throughout M.)† lack of resolve, the occasional resentment, blaming, shaming, unwillingness to work on the M, the push for her to just get me out of the home, all the while acting like she is doing me the favor. Its so ridiculous we are permenant marking our initials on all of our food purchases for the kitchen now too. But in her mind I'm the blame for it all. I'm emotionally abusive for saying NO. For standing my ground, for protecting myself, for making decisions that are best interest of me and S1, expressing my PIV for everything. I'm an insensitive a-hole for calling her out on B.S. when it comes up. I'm defiant for not agreeing with all of her decisions which leads to her own unintended consequences. I'm the reason why she's unhappy and needs to work on herself (Which she is doing a good job of with in IC.) That I was never supportive of her. That she's the victim in all this. Wants to take accountability, but can never seem to name it from her side. The past means nothing. Yesterdays good deeds and good times mean nothing. The M means nothing, what I brought to the table means nothing, that my ideals are antiquated, that Im a chauvinist, that we are on two different mindsets and scripts. That Im holding her back in life from achieving her full potential and being happy. That she is finally standing up for herself, That if she wishes her dreams into the universe, it will eventually come true. (With some hard work of course.) Hell if I'm a chauvinist, then she must be a moderate closet unadmitted feminist. (Sorry if I keep bringing this subject up in my posts, its just the way it is, and im trying to balance my mindset from what I observe, and what is healthy from this forum.)

What I see is a woman that is a good person, that is nice, caring, thoughtful, career wise, hard worker mentally, used to be selfless, that means well, who learned to be a people pleaser from her emotionally unavailable Vietnam vet anxious semi-alcoholic father who was and is a good man as provider, did a lot of sacrificing for the family up until his recent dementia. (Apparently according to IC, her new development is she's an emotional eater because she learned to get candy every other day, with her father when she was little when he went to the liquor store for a six pack.) I see a woman who lost her "identity" when she got into a relationship with me some 12 years ago. Despite her trying to keep a PMA most of the time. I think she secretly hates herself for it. She is looking for her self worth by attempting to explore what is outside of her through experiences.

Overall she is a good woman. A very thoughtfull gift giver. She's just not for me, and not for my ideal of marriage I've realized. At least the traditional kind that I expect. Home cooked meal (not frozen trader Joe's or take out every other night.) Eating dinner at the table every night like a family instead of on the couch. Dishes done and kitchen cleaned. Good conversation instead of being lost in the smartphone or reality tv as an escape. Taking care of the home and division of labor and responsibility. Being fair and not having gender role confusion, and†good communication. Teaching children good principles rather then good feelings. Attempt to understand another's POV without judgement or bias. Responsibly saving money, doing housework, building an empire, rather than chasing new novelty always going out, balance the two between money, going out, work, and working on home, balancing social affairs. Regular intimacy emotional and physical.

On my end of the street. I need to work on my anger (it comes and goes) detach further, (Its hard because everyday brings up emotions of either not caring anymore and indifference on my part and hers, or taking a step closer torwards the edge of divorce everyday. Its hard not to let their hurtful actions affect you.) I'm trying to work being assertive without being demanding or aggressive. Better organized. More thoughtful in planning which Im very slowly getting better at. Something I haven't been able to handle since co-habitation 10 years ago. Self sabotaging. My negative attitude to external circumstance.

I know the rant of this is mostly about her. I've been GAL ing with co worker and a few friends which has been somewhat good. Been doing 5 mile walks with my friend. If my move in the up coming weeks doesn't affect my free time. I think I'm going to take a mini vacation in the end of Sept. Band practice is coming up soon again. Been having a great time with the kid alone. We went hiking this weekend. He will be two next month and he's already a trailblazer and rock climbing.
Posted By: AnotherStander

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 08/26/19 06:01 PM

IH, I know to you it seems like she's not being cooperative and you are, but honestly reading this whole exchange it sounds to me like you're both equally contributing to the discord. Not a lot of listening and validating happening on your end. You just like to pick at each other.

That said, she is very clearly having financial issues and man I would get out of there as quickly as you can! How is she going to come up with the 5k to pay you the way she's burning through money? She's already in debt up to her eyeballs it sounds like. I have a feeling that money you fronted her is long gone which is why she's trying to nick you for a few hundred more. I know you're working through a mediator but do you separately have an L? I would just make quadruple sure that you can't be held out to dry on all this debt she's racking up!
Posted By: Wolfman

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 08/27/19 12:14 AM

It is almost scary how much our wives are alike. Even down to bury her face I. The phone at dinner and watching reality tv. Somehow we married twins. Unfortunately we are still heading down the same miserable road with w who donít realize what they had in us. Stay strong my friend and we will get through this. Maybe we will meet amazing women and this will all be a thing of the past. There are women out there deserve men like us, not these ungrateful women we married!! Just by going out and meeting other women has showed me there are some pretty amazing women out there that got ďbadĒ husbands like we did wives!! Keep in touch IH we are on the same path which almost seems like the same woman. Scary!!!
Posted By: CWarrior

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 09/13/19 07:38 PM

Hi IHCLACS, how's it going? I saw you post elsewhere. I hope you're finding yourself in a mellower place. Your conversations with your partner were getting mighty tense for a bit.

Originally Posted by "IHCLACS"
H:I am unable to communicate efficiently with you regarding S1 well being, appointments, finances, and other pertinent subjects from conversations that never took place, or partially took place verbally between us and left open ended, due to lack of written response on your part, or you're memory loss.

Please stick to the plan of email for all future events and requests. It is what works for both of us right now. I can take care of a portion of the yard Thurs or this weekend.


Posted By: IHCLACS

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 09/16/19 09:49 AM

Been quiet lately. Been wanting to write here for weeks everything that is going on. Been having a lot of good realizations. Have to... Well.. Don't have to but.. Kind of need to pack up and get out of my own home in 15 days. She's moving BIL in to help with her cost to her new mortgage she refinanced all the individual and joint debt into, and she's charging me rent if I stay past October according to PMA. I've asked her not to move BIL in while im still in the home with the awkwardness between us as it is. She agreed at first, then sneekily had BIL drop off some of his stuff in basement two weekends ago. I haven't signed quit claims deed yet. BIL is coming from Pittsburgh to live here, pay rent, and make small repairs to house to get it market ready for next year, and help out with MIL who's going through chemo, and FIL who is going into VA home because of dementia. Her family is helping her out and vice versa. I get it. I understand it's nothing personal. But I'm kind of taking it personally. She's not doing it to hurt me, but to survive, and supplement cost if child daycare.

I'm sort of depressed, in a place of complacency, avoidance and non motivational daze, and been avoiding packing up my garage and shed. Just been sitting around the house watching self help You Tube videos lately. I have a lot of tools and a lot to clean up. I have no idea where I'm going to put all my stuff. I'm on a scramble to find a place suitable to income, location to work and S2. I have to come up with security deposit, plus whatever furnishings I may need for S2.

I've kind of let myself go as far as helping with the yard stuff, pool, etc. I just clean up my area, keep it straight, and help out with main floor of home for now. I've completely stopped doing husbandly duties for a while. The grass, weeds, landscaping hasn't been tended to in weeks. I figure its going to be her house now until she sells it. Her and BIL can figure it all out. I'm scared about $$$ and survival. I just had a reduction of hours at work this week. Am going to have to figure in CS support eventually and monthly daycare. She will release $5000 once I sign the quit claims deed to the property. We've both been dragging our feet with mediator, CS and moving this along.

As far as GAL I have a dance meetup today which also conflicts with an apartment viewing I have today. Been doing band practice and hanging out with a few friends which has been fun.

S1 was sick all last week. Monday he suddenly came down with Croupe and couldn't breath Mon. Night so we called the ambulance. ER visit was short, and he was ok within a few hours. He was good up until Weds/Thurs. But had stomach/bowl issues all week so we kept him home. I took 2 days off to watch him to give her a break and lost more $ there at a time where I desperately need it. The thing that really stunk about all this I booked him a party for his birthday Sept 14th and had to cancel it to allow him to recover. Don't know when I will be able to rebook it with all that is going on. Still celebrated his 2nd bday yesterday at home with pizza and cake. It was fun. He was happy. My mind is in 50 directions.

I've pretty much pulled away and have been doing my own thing for a while. We just ignore each other most of the time other than for the sake of S2. We bury ourselves in our phones. It's been this way since Jan. Had a kind of R talk last week. Brought up when back in Feb. She wanted me to move to basement. I didn't want to do it because of lack of respect, consideration, and humidity in summer. Her narritive that although wouldn't have been ideal for her, it would have gave her more space for herself, and me daily access to S2. (Again playing the family co-parent narrative.) Plus would have helped her still with the mortgage $. I kind of asked when she decided on moving BIL in. It was this June. Again trying not to take this personally I see this is clearly all about money and survival. But still with friends like that who needs enemies? I think this whole time she's wanted to keep me involved with things and keep me involved with her family and functions, but I've been distancing myself from everyone intentionally. She flipped the script on me and said that since you asked for your space I just gave it to you and didn't invite you to anything, and told her family such, after I declined a few invites this summer. My cousin invited all of us to her house warming party last weekend. I asked that only myself and my son attend. I kind of disinvited W. I made it a point to say that it wouldn't be awkward for me to have her there at the party. But it's also not fair to me that I wasn't invited anything all year with all the trips that she made. That I was disincluded. She again subscript inside Vault you denied my invites on a few occasions so I just gave you your space. I explained that if we are separating then I'm going to act seperated. Clearly we are on two totally different narratives I am hurting and I'm just trying to heal, and she still wants my company or did want my company earlier in the year at these occasions probably for the sake of co-parenting. I won't be a friend I won't be a plan B and I won't be second place to someone who fired me as her H. She just doesn't see it this way at all she doesn't get it? She thinks I'm being difficult. I also made a mention that once I move out I want to arrange a public meeting place to pick up S1. That I won't be coming by the house to pick him up. A convenience store right down the block from the home. But I don't want to know what's going on the home or set foot in front of it ever again. She starts mentioning to me how it's inconvenience for her to do that. I make a point that no matter where I'm going to be living within a 15-mile radius if I can help it, and I'm doing her the favor by picking him up that close to the home which is 2 blocks away.

In this conversation she made a mention of how we both would have been able to have our privacy and although not ideal for her but suitable, if I moved to the basement when she asked me to back in Feb, and somewhere she mention that she wouldn't be running guys or people in and out of the house. I was like what!?... So I playfully accused her of seeing someone or being potentially being involved with someone. She reinforced that she wasn't but you couldn't even look at me when she said if she had her head down the whole time. So I playfully told her she was full of $hit and just laughed at it. Every time I've done this she's always said I don't have the time or the energy to have a relationship with someone else. I said who said anything about a relationship? She said if she was to have a relationship with someone else, she would want to work on herself for at least a year post seperation. I doubt she is seeing someone, but still am suspicious. All the red flags are there. But may mean absolutely nothing.

More irony is I had a few dating profiles active from February that I deactivated recently. Just before I deactivated them the other day, my brother's ex-girlfriend from 7 years ago who got divorced two years ago that my wife hangs around with and has been hanging around with this whole time came up in my dating search. My wife mentioned to me back in April this divorced XGF of my brother was seeing six guys at once. Because this woman still talks to my younger brother. I can tell my wife was a little bit hesitant back then to reveal any further info and protective and hiding something about something that she knows getting back to my other brother getting back to me. They recently went to a concert together two weeks ago on Labor Day and my wife anticipated that I was going to be at that concert but assumed incorrectly cuz I went to a different concert. I also came across another dating profile that is the sister of my wife's girlfriend who is getting married in January. I also have suspicions that this other girlfriend of hers is another enabler if there is anything going on? I asked my wife if she hung out with this person, she said no, she's annoying, but mentioned to me that she is single. I told her I know playfully and she want to know how I knew...lol... I guess you could say we're temp checking each other.

My wife also asked me for money again last week and I asked her what it was for and what it was going to and she said it was none of my business. So I took the money back. Then she cried and she said she wanted to take her father to the boardwalk before they put them in a home which hasn't actually happened yet. My MIL is putting it off. So I gave her a few $100 to tide her over until she got paid on the 15th. She was broke from the end of August until then, and until the refinance went through.

Things are a mess I'm going to have to figure out where I'm going to live I'm going to afford it where I'm going to put all my stuff and I have to do it really fast. My head is spinning. But I hope I figure it out and it all works out.

That's my update. I sometimes wonder if I have the wrong mindset and all of this and I'm being a stubborn hard a$$. I've been trying really hard to take a balanced approach to be polite courteous and friendly, without seeming punitive. But I'm still willing to lose it all and lose her for the sake of my self-respect as pridefull as it seems. There are days where I just don't care anymore. I don't want to R. I just want to build a new life, be more subject to change for the better, and move on. Then there are other days where I'm kind of numb, still in disbelief this is happening and wish I could reconcile with her. The silence and the lack of communication, different narratives, understanding, vulnerability, willingness really bugs me. Sometimes I have to remind myself to curb my anger about it and keep a balanced mindset, be alert about what's really going on around me, but yet still of compassion for her.

She puts on a really good normal front in front of other people and acts like she's happy, but when around me alone, her tone and behavior changes. You can hear the depression and stress in her voice struggling to survive and be the new person she wants to be. She is dedicated to all of her programs and her therapy. But her habits and actions indicate otherwise.

Just need more time more space and more detachment. I hope she figures herself out in her life. Just as much as I need to figure mine out individually.
Posted By: DS9

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 09/16/19 10:40 AM

Oh man Iím feeling your pain and confusion brother. Iím absorbing some of it for you mate to give you some headspace.

Howís your sonís croup? Keep an eye on his tonsils and temperature. Donít hesitate to go back to hospital if needed.

Can you afford temporary storage for your stuff or store with a mate? Can you afford Airbnb or similar if you donít find a place in time? Caravan park? Just something temporary. You donít want to rush into a lease.

Whatís a quit claim?

If your heads spinning make sure you keep a notebook with you to map things out and jot things down. This plays havoc on short term memory and rapid decision making.

I found insight timer app helped calm my mind when it was racing. Davidji and David gandelman are so soothing!

Nothing Iíve read suggests your mindset is distorted.

Stay strong mate and stay the course. Youíre your childrenís rock. Cheers ds
Posted By: Tryhard

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 09/16/19 11:18 AM

Why you giving her money ? She is just manipulating you with don stories. You are going to kick yourself down the line . She is happy around everyone else but when you she is shaky with stress and depression?
Posted By: AnotherStander

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 09/16/19 11:59 AM

IH, hang in there, even though separating might put a financial strain on you I suspect you will start feeling a lot better about life after you get out of the limbo you're stuck in right now! Sounds like you're handling interactions with your W well. I wouldn't bother with the R talks anymore because it just sends you spinning and who knows if she's even telling you the truth.

Quote
I sometimes wonder if I have the wrong mindset and all of this and I'm being a stubborn hard a$$.


I think a lot of us have or had those same thoughts. You spend years treating this person like they are your best friend and to suddenly shot that down makes you feel like a jerk. But detaching, GALing, leaving her alone is absolutely the best approach. It's not being cold, rude or indifferent. Just "not as available".

Quote
I've been trying really hard to take a balanced approach to be polite courteous and friendly, without seeming punitive.


Good!

Quote
There are days where I just don't care anymore. I don't want to R. I just want to build a new life, be more subject to change for the better, and move on. Then there are other days where I'm kind of numb, still in disbelief this is happening and wish I could reconcile with her. The silence and the lack of communication, different narratives, understanding, vulnerability, willingness really bugs me. Sometimes I have to remind myself to curb my anger about it and keep a balanced mindset, be alert about what's really going on around me, but yet still of compassion for her.


Yes, this is a great summary of the difficulties of being an LBS. It is frustrating, but it is also normal. And your last sentence (bolded) is spot on.
Posted By: IHCLACS

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 09/16/19 10:14 PM

AS, Tryhard, and DS9. Thanks for the support. As far as $ and the W. Both her and I maintained our individual health insurance with our workplaces, but she had me on as a secondary on her policy. I had her keep me on it from January to August for the mental health benefits since my plans deduction was over $1000. So she took my half of the tax return money from this year deducted that from what I owed her (Even though she already spent it.) So owed amount came out to $321 and change. So I gave her $100 torwards that to give her a little cash flow until she got paid. I'm in no hurry to give it all to her at once, despite having the money because I have to plan for all of my amenities purchases and rent security deposit in the next 15 to 30 days. She can sweat it. Besides she's holding my $5k until I sign the quick claims deed. What that is is basically you relinquish any ownership of title to the property. She is now the sole mortgage holder for the mortgage note since refinance. Funny story she had a guy come by the house I filled out some papers and signed off on them. I didn't relinquish anything it was just with knowledge that she is the sole mortgage note holder. Had to fill out our date of marriage on the form. She couldn't remember the year...lol... even though our 10th anniversary was three weeks prior.

As far as our R talks... I'd rather slam my ball$ in a sliding door then have another one of those talks. I mean yeah it brings Clarity on other people's perceptions of things but it really doesn't do any good as far as the marriage is concerned. I only bring certain things up every once in awhile just to gauge how far off both of our perceptions are since we barely communicate. I'm done fighting for her, standing for her, and holding onto her. She is overall a good woman, but I'm just hurt as a man, a father and a husband. She is not out to get me or screw me, she is being fair overall and amicable. Im just more focused on getting my act together for my own and S2's sake. Im gone though. I'm going out of my way to distance myself from her and her family despite them all still being very good people. I'm not playing into her narrative that we can still be a family, act as a family, etc... So yeah I'm being a little bit of a hard a$$ at times, but that's my mindset, and my family's mindset when people divorce and seperate. Her family's mindset is everybody can still get along and go to family functions and be friends and all this other stuff, bring future relationship mates etc... maybe one day when I'm ready for it, years down the road when im detached. The only thing I'm willing to attend is if its for S2 like birthdays or back to school night. Otherwise..SEPERATED!!! Good luck to you and your new life, I wish you well. as far as dealing with the headaches I'm getting the better end of the deal when it comes to the buyout and she's going to have to go through all the trouble to put the house in the market... So?...TBC... going to my first swing dancing lessons tonight yeehaw
Posted By: neffer

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 09/19/19 01:26 AM

Happy birthday IH. Keep doing what works for you man. Keep DB.

Time and patience, get into amoafwl.

Stay strong there, DB!
Posted By: IHCLACS

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 10/04/19 10:26 AM

Found this really awesome guy on YouTube who is a life coach on living your best self and relationships. Teaches valuable life lessons. He really goes deep into how to live the best version of yourself, heal, handle relationships, etc.
Posted By: IHCLACS

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 10/04/19 08:00 PM

I have some thoughts and feelings here to express later that I've been thinking about all day and very similar to Uni and IW. Thornton and Wolf as well. But first tonight I'm going to go live for me I'm going out solo I think I'm going to go find a jazz club or something. I need to make me happy and I need to be alone doing it and get reacquainted with myself. I have mostly always been a socially lone wolf that is a lot of fun cuz if I ever have to wait around for someone else to do the things that I want to do. I would never get to do them. Time to regrow who I was and grow who I will be.
Posted By: rooskers

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 10/04/19 09:11 PM

Quote
Her family's mindset is everybody can still get along and go to family functions and be friends and all this other stuff, bring future relationship mates etc... maybe one day when I'm ready for it, years down the road when im detached.


My XW had an aunt and uncle who divorced and the resulting two families got along so well they would go camping together. I think my XW had a fantasy this would have been us. Her aunt and uncle both agreed to leave on good terms, there was no affair, one of them didn't just walk away, and there was still trust in the relationship. None of that happened in our divorce.

Quote
Otherwise..SEPERATED!!! Good luck to you and your new life, I wish you well.


You said it perfectly in my mind.
Posted By: neffer

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 10/04/19 09:26 PM

Get out and GAL. Enjoy yourself.
Posted By: IHCLACS

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 10/10/19 11:33 PM

Hey guys. I was losing my F@$KIN mind last night all through this morning in terror. My reality is becoming my literal nightmares, and my nightmares my reality. I was having not a nightmare but a dream last night about being in a house with a lot of rooms that combined all the places XW and I lived including current one. I was going through a lot of her stuff and my stuff and discovering new rooms that never existed. I was getting prepared to leave. (This is a dream theme with me with my parents home as well.) I was caught in a dream loop where I thought I was awake but wasn't. So when I actually did wake up, I bolted out the bedroom door, past the XW and into the kitchen, had a few deep breaths, had a bowl of serial, and XW asked if. I was ok. I decided to tell her about the dream anyway. She just made sure I was ok, and went to bed.

†I know no one here is going to be able to help me with this so I am just journaling in a sense. I don't expect answers or responses from anyone, but I just need to get this off my chest. There's been a strange number of coincidences and signs the last couple of days.

Just so everyone is updated on my situation.† I was going over the numbers this last weekend to see how my income will stack up with me living out of the marital home in my own place. With current costs with S2's daycare, some remedial behavioral training costs for S2, and living expenses, if I barely eat, and never go out, and I've been crunching the numbers, I will still be $100 in the red a month. That's even before CS which we still haven't figured out yet. I've been paralyzed with fear, but slowly moving through it torwards strength with prayer. I feel like a prisoner in my own home. BIL has moved in. W ignores me for the last how many 7 months. Im off the mortgage note by her actions. But I won't sign the quit claims deed or accept the terms for a paltry $5k incentive without a L reviewing such. XW has PSA agreement drawn up to split equity when house sells next year. I cannot afford a L the moment. I'm still concerned leaving the M home, and abandonment issues legally speaking, (XW knows this, in past suggested some form of written agreements to alievate. (Don't know if she has changed her mind and is coming after me? ) I put down a down a deposit for a rental today.

So since this last Dec, a cousin of mine has been pushing me to start up a new business as a XYZ lets say, for solely my own benefit. But it would require me to be 1099 contractor with an insurance adjustment company. I would have to upfront startup costs for tools, truck, PIP, etc. I would have to tap my retirement for a 3rd time in the last 10 years, and most likely take it all out this time to startup business, survive, and pad all living and business cost. I have only about 40k. I'm concerned about tax and CS implications. Im scared because I don't know if I can handle all the responsibility. But I don't see any other choice in the matter as far as surviving. I have also expressed my concerns about 50/50 custody with XW and current work schedule, trying to find a way to make it work, she is adamant about not having it, and rejecting 50/50 custody over last week discussions.

Where things get really weird and scary is. For the last 3 days I've gotten this strange intuition to see a psychic, and pop ups from my phone browser unsolicited for all things concerning my STBXW sign Aries. (I'm a Virgo) I read one of them the other night, and it spoke of several uncanny things that perfectly describe my XW current state, emotions, intentions, etc. I was going to email it to her the other night, but held back. Also for the last 3 days I have been drawn to YouTube videos about Christianity, being saved, spiritual struggle, rejecting sin, dying to self, and not messing with the occult, etc, Being a Godly man/husband woman/wife, etc. I haven't been actively looking for these things. They just pop up in my feeds out of nowhere and I view them. It seems like every time I want to or start to get detached and focus on myself. The whole God teachings brings me back to trying to be more understanding, compassionate, patient, and hopeful from a distance, while allowing them to be them, and do them, without any interference from me. But it still gives me false hope. Not in the Lord. But the XW. Im still struggling with reforming some of my habits.

So where it gets even stranger is my S2 went into W room the other night, so I had to get him. I discovered my XW went to go see a psychic. I acquired this information from one of her notebooks that S2 grabbed.

This is where it gets scary. I really hate airing my XW "dirty laundry" in public, I just want to say that don't take any joy or pleasure in doing such, as it is not a good thing to do, don't mean to have mal-intent, but the irony and coincidences of all this is uncanny. Its really scaring me because of its accuracy, its implications, and the fact that XW is messing with it, and I don't know what do with it, and as always, it takes time for me to accept and recover every time I learn something more profound of significance. (The last 24 hrs have been subject to panic for me, but I'm good now.) I don't intend to shame her, judge her, or exploit her. I understand its invasion of privacy, even if I just come across things in passing, I know I should probably look the other way and focus on me. That I shouldn't be publishing this kind of stuff to make me feel better. But I am genuinely concerned without saying or indicating anything to her. Its hard for me to hold it in, and is upsetting. It may not mean anything.

I have been known throughout the entire relationship of 12 years to look at XW's journal from very early on from year one. I've made her aware of this from early on as well as I did it to understand her better out of concern, there are things I have learned about her in time about past BF's, and resentments and disappointment with me as well as them, patterns of behavior with her, that I would have never learned because she stuffs her true feelings down and keeps secrets. I'm really not great at keeping secrets or holding onto them, except when it comes to really really personal stuff. I am am open book that tells the truth even if it hurts me. She knows this about me, and I can understand why someone would view it as an invasion of privacy, feel controlled and untrustworthy. She stopped writing years ago because of this. I can understand why trust can be broken because of these things, and I really need to not bring this kind if insecurity into my next R. I've been cheated in a few time in the past. For the most part I always trusted W until this recent year after BD.

Her notes from Psychic:

Medium predicted her maiden name. That her paternal grandmother was spirit guide. Arms open to her. That either Grandmother or XW has a fear of dying. Difficulty walking. Constant worry.† (XW complained about knees after her GAL this Sat.) Virus related.

Spirit (Paternal Grandmother whom XW never met but is very similar to came greet her. ) Advised wants to help her with family conflict. For XW to wash hands of negative person causing conflict. (Me.) That my intentions aren't good. She wrote down "You can't divorce family." (This is something my brother and family has always said to me.) She correlated that with me, and that I am up to no good. That she should be careful. That I have a strong personality. That she has to seperate herself from male figure.

This part regarding my S2 was remarkable. It goes even further to predict and elaborate on my S2's current personality, behaviot, situation and relationship with XW and MIL. MIL and XW adore S2 and he is their world. That S2 is on spectrum of developmentally challenged. That he is an explorer, he learns by doing, is sensitive and empathetic, is an old soul sent to help earth. That he needs space to explore, not to keep a tight rope on him, that he will face challenges in public school settings, too much resistance will backfire. That his Grandmother (MIL or XW deceased paternal GM.) will be his guide. Medium also goes on to advise XW that she should push for primary custody, and is adamant not to do joint custody or 50/50 custody. That more time with XW is better with her and for her. She should talk with a lawyer(s), and get an agreement that XW will not agree or pay alimony or CS. Not to let communication with me get under skin.

Heart healing: Ask for protection for XW and S2, that she has been hurt.

Medium confirmed that "I would not hurt or harm S2" (Apparantly a fear of XW with no example or merit.)

Fulfillment of wishes is money and child support. Its also forecasted I will be making good money in future. Forecasted that she will be switching jobs or asking for a raise. Increase in salary in new job position and also asking for more child support.

Marriage: Suffering in silence. (Yeah like she's the only one as a result of her actions.)

Hope: Positive outcome. To trust gut instinct.

Confidence 100% in Patience and Planning: payoff is good and academic and nature may possibly be going back to school again within the next year.

Inheritance: 3 money cards together.
That things are coming to fruition. She was advised to push herself more in her career. Take more classes. (This I find kind of funny because she has done nothing but complain how much he wants to quit her job, do something purposeful with her life, and how miserable she is over the last 4 or 5 years, and that is sucking the life out of her.) She already has her Masters and her ABA and Behavioral as well as sign language courses another certifications related to the education field. She was also advised to push for more money and find a new partner that makes more money. To look for someone stable in a good job. (My work history has always been a little irregular.) Advised to focus on herself for 2 years. No new partner until Sept. 21st. (This is ironic because it is the end of the Virgo cycle. My cycle.)

I was going to list even more horoscopes of significance to sich, but don't want to overwhelm the readers. XW wanted to actually make chit chat about her day with S2, and a few other things. I listened, validated, had a few laughs over trivial things. She actually offered to make me dinner, and brought it to me. I almost died! I thanked her graciously. She went on to say she may bring S2 to go away this weekend for family gathering if he feels better. (I volunteered to watch him on my weekend off if he needed to stay back because of ear infection and cold.) She tried to temp check me again. Every time she goes away, she make playful comments about me ordering up hookers and having parties. I gave her the "The last thing I need in my life right now is ANOTHER WOMAN!" So she interprets and spins ANOTHER like? What do you mean by ANOTHER? (Multiple) and starts saying, they're my words. So Im like: Its you're perception you can interpret it any way you like. My extra ciricular activities are no longer of your concern... Lol...

I can't wait to move. I just hope im not legally screwing myself, and hope I can find a way to swing all the expenses and CS. I'm scared, and actually doing this on a wing and a prayer. I was hurting and anxious all day and couldn't breath from those notes that I read. All day long I felt like evil was around me. Then it lifted after I got home. I'm ok emotionally with parting ways from XW and having seperate spaces, detaching and moving on.. But its still hard to accept and it hurts there may be someone else in her and S2's life in the future, and the possibility that XW may fight me on 50/50 I don't want to be the bad guy, but I'm not going to let her control the lead on this one. I don't want to be the bad guy. But I will if path comes to shove. I still think what she is doing, and consulting mediums is not socially wrong but spiritually wrong. I just don't want to see her go down the wrong path with God and spurts and demons and stuff. She is a Christian. If the medium is right. (Boy was that accurate.) Then Im in for a whirlwind ride. I hope she finds herself, finds her happiness, her self esteem, her self worth, etc, and her purpose, but through God's purpose, will, and prayer... (I've looked into all these things before in the past. The Secret. Eckhart Tolle, Yoga, Reiki, Chakras, Acupuncture, Chinese Medicine, The Law of Attraction, etc, all for anxiety, wellness and health. Had one strage experience and stopped.) Its a road I can no longer follow. I just need to pull myself out of some bad sins and habits. But I want Jesus, I want God, and no other substitute. I hope he can help us. Regardless of which way we go.
Posted By: IHCLACS

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 10/11/19 12:55 AM

Alright talk about mood swing... ( On my part and for the better.) Was having fun tonight with S2, genuinely happy, jokey even. As if I didn't have a care in the world, and caught a glimpse of my old self. Don't know why? Don't know if it's because I am securing a new apt. Don't know if it's because I faced a fear? And it's off my chest? Its weird. This roller coaster of emotions is ridiculous. Sometimes I have to remind myself to put this whole thing down, and just laugh a little. I was nice as pie tonight and genuinely smiling. We made some small chit chat about random stuff. XW was struggling to administer nebulizer to S2. So I tried to distract him during setup. We both tried to work with him on it. She asked me for a lot of help tonight, so I offered it. XW was somewhat in a good mood until that. You could tell she was a little annoyed. I came up with the laughable S2 could be Bain from Batman with the nebulizer mask. S2 was watching tv show and a child was getting a shot from a Dr.. So I said to S2 "Watch out for the pricks!" So XW replied. "There's a big one sitting right there!" Meaning me. So I faked laughed. Said "good one" Then asked XW what she was going to be for Halloween? Bride of Frankenstein. I picked up S2's playbroom and said. "Well if you take this out for a ride on Halloween, all you need to bring is yourself!" Lol.. She was like. "You were just looking around the room to a segway for that weren't you? Things almost felt normal. Almost. Then S2 went to bed, I picked up after him, cleaned up the living room, (No thank you'd not that I was expecting one.) and it was back to typical behavior after S2 goes to bed, she engages in TV escapes and laughs in it with reality shows and typically ignores my presence, but this time. I just didn't care I just smiled because I was happy. Walked right past her even if no eye contact. Which is typical for the last 12 months after S2 goes to bed. I've had these moments before over past 12 months where I don't get it? Sometimes she doesn't affect me at all or what she does.. I'm just happy for no reason. I can't make her happy, and that's perfectly ok. That's up to her, and I know I am not entirely responsible for it. (Although they think we are.) All I can do is be a little but of the old me. A little but of the new me. But more importantly. Choose not to be down. Choose to be full of joy. Choose not to be defensive. Choose not to sink into misery and fade away. Choose not to focus on all life's problems and let go. Who wants to be around someone that is complaining, critical, argumentitive, and miserable all the time? Its exhausting. (Meaning old me.) My life is going to be just fine, and I really want to smile more and laugh a little. Yeah. I need to bring that back.
Posted By: DS9

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 10/11/19 04:50 AM

Hey IHC

I'm still with you buddy. How you doing right now?

I'm sorry to hear about this psychic discovery and that you've been spinning a bit. You may remember these types of things popping up in my sitch. I've heard they can destroy marriages.

To me, seeing a psychic is nothing to be worried about. A good one offers perspective you cannot get from any other source. The 'predictions' you cite XW as having received from her psychic are remarkable, aren't they?

Go see one. A good one. Go with a completely open mind. Don't be surprised if they say it's unusual for a man to attend. The dreams you have worry me. You should talk to the psychic about that, and ask about auras. You may wish to look into spiritual healing and cleansing too. I hear sage smoke does wonders in a home with bad energy. I'm Catholic btw.

PS - I'm a Virgo as well. Good sign, hey. Apparently, 2019 is a huge year of change for us.

Keep me posted. Cheers, DS
Posted By: IHCLACS

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 10/12/19 07:55 PM

W has been fairly nice as of lately. Know it means nothing.

I did her a favor and signed a check to release escrow from mortgage company. She closed Joint check account at my request. I was going to close it myself but checked with her first. She wanted to keep it open until the end of the month and we both agreed on that and then she want to close in any way without telling me. That's fine though there was zero balance in there. She offered me dinner the other night. Small gestures that mean nothing has changed, but I give and take with it. S2 has been sick all week. I offered to watch him this weekend after work this Sat so XW could go away with family. BIL went Fri. Night. They celebrate Canadian Thanksgiving every year as family tradition from GF even though they are not Canadian. XW couldn't make up mind whether to take S2 or have me watch him because of cough which is understandable. For the last year despite us seperating, she still keeps requesting I do family occasions with her and S2. I can't tell if these are olive branches, or cake eating with her and her perception. I know I shouldn't care what you think at this point but their actions show that she clearly wants to divorce me, move on with another life in another man in the future. I've refused every invitation for the last year IHS, I have been very consistent about that, yes she still keeps asking me on every family occasion. I have explained to her I'm not doing this to be punitive. Is that I need to heal, that she has hurt me by separating our family and our marriage, I love that won't play family unless we are together as a family. She has told her family that I am just taking my space from everyone. I don't understand why they can't see it from my point of view ? As much as I really really miss her entire family, she knows this, and they know it as well, I don't want to set a precedence that I am going to attend family functions as the Ex. I'm not going to be friends with her until I'm fully healed and I am ready, if I ever decide that. The way I see it is if someone wants to get away from me that bad and removed me from their life piece by piece, action by action, they don't get to cherry pick and choose where they get to have me in their life. Whether it is for their convenience as a courtesy, or whether it is for S2. I am a co-parent I am no longer a husband . If I am not considered as her H in the future, especially if she gets involved on another relationship with another man in the future. I'm not trying to mind read but I know how she thinks. She's probably saying to herself that I'm no different, that I am antisocial, which nothing could be further from the truth. and that I haven't changed. Any 180s as far as attending family functions. I've always attended all of her family functions with joy. I would maybe miss one or two friend occasions during the year to work on the house in the past. Her narrative and perception is I have missed almost every family occasion in the past. To me it seems this is clearly about me handling S2 to her,and doing joint family things together I'm not going to do that. still apparently even though she may be extending the olive branch and being polite. Is clearly not for the marriage or for her it's for the sake of S2 and me seeing her family. I want my respect, and she keeps crossing my boundaries with this, hoping that I will do these things. Clearly she only wants to benefit from them, but I am no longer the benefit of company to her. It's really difficult for me to understand how these people could think this way especially immediately right now given what's going on and then I'm moving out in separating. That I've lost my home, that I've lost my wife, that I've lost my family, and that this whole situation was forced upon me by her hands and her actions.

l kind of know how to handle these family situations, I just don't know if Im going about it the right way. I do want to act Godly and friendly but still maintain my boundaries for my own emotional health for obvious reasons. I know that I need to remove all emotional responses to her. If anyone wants to give me any tips or how to respond to these requests like this in the future, if it comes up again like Thanksgiving or Christmas. I would greatly appreciate it. I need to know whether I'm handling this correctly and if I'm being prideful or if I'm responding correctly.

H: My phone battery is dropping fast today. What is the decision with S2? Are you taking him?

XW: Still not sure... would you consider coming up with him tomorrow for the day if he stays home tonight.

H: Sorry. I don't play family unless I actually belong to one.

H: You can take him tonight, or leave him with me for the weekend. Please let me know so I can make /cancel plans.

XW: Im leaving him with you

H: Ok
Posted By: LH19

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 10/12/19 08:17 PM

I,

I guess I really donít understand why you just donít say ďthanks but I have plansĒ? Your response comes off as bitter and vindictive to me.

Youíre all over the board with how you act around her and itís probably confusing to her.
Posted By: CWarrior

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 10/12/19 08:42 PM

Originally Posted by IHCLACS
I have explained to her I'm not doing this to be punitive. Is that I need to heal, that she has hurt me by separating our family and our marriage, I love that won't play family unless we are together as a family.

l kind of know how to handle these family situations, I just don't know if Im going about it the right way.

If anyone wants to give me any tips or how to respond to these requests like this in the future, if it comes up again like Thanksgiving or Christmas. I would greatly appreciate it. I need to know whether I'm handling this correctly and if I'm being prideful or if I'm responding correctly.

XW: Still not sure... would you consider coming up with him tomorrow for the day if he stays home tonight.

H: Sorry. I don't play family unless I actually belong to one.

Hi IHCLACS, I support your decision not to go, but I don't support the way you're saying it. Imagine an acquaintance or co-worker invited you over? "Thanks, but I have plans." "Thanks, but I'm looking forward to working on my car | garden | traveling | getting some solo R&R time." Simple formula - show appreciation + decline. Boundaries control your actions--she chooses to invite you, you choose (boundary) not to go.

Imagine how harsh your reply would sound if you said it to a stranger.
Posted By: IHCLACS

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 10/13/19 01:18 PM

Thanks CWarrior and LH19 I agree. I need to remove the emotion from it, the reactivity from it,† tone it down a bit, and politely decline and stop trying to drive my point and POV home with her with this subject.† I don't obviously have plans because I am watching sick S2 as a favor to her on my weekend off. (I volunteered to do it for her without her asking as a kind gesture.) So she knows I don't have plans. I have been in person with her, courteous, respectful, empathetic, validating, and polite with her.

I just can't tell if this is her being so extensively courteous every single time that she may be offering an olive branch. Or is she just being courteous by nature. I'm only doing this and acting this way regarding family functions with her, because a lot of the vets here suggested it doing family affairs seperate, if the WAS wants to seperate. Her actions of removing me from the mortgage, refinancing the house, meeting with a medium, moving BIL in,† not agreeing for 50/50 custody, seeking as much CS and $ as possible, but she doesn't want to be responsible for alimony or CS to me if that is the way it goes. It's evidently clear what her intentions are for the M. And being me as a potential threat in her narrative and head very similar to Uni's sich. But she asks every single time when a family occaision comes up if I would consider going and when I politely decline, she still presses with a "ok well in case you change your mind" ... Even though I've established that boundary over 7 months ago and have been consistent with it every single time.† A few months ago she told me that by me living here over the last seven months is like having an ex-boyfriend live with her, she wants her space. She probably won't remember this if I told her but, she also said a couple months ago that I was holding her back in life. So I'm out. Peace, Dueces.† I'm moving. Im onto my own life, my own business, and my own thing.

So why would I attend family functions with her? There's no respect with being in the friend zone. There's her emotions, responses, actions, and attitude, although still in control, polite, but also all over the place. I can see her silently hurting just looking for distractions when I'm around her.† I'm usually ignored by her but once in a while she'll be nice and make chitchat with me. She wants to move on with her life but she wants to invite me to all family occasions? So who is really sending mixed signals here? I'm sorry but you can't have it both ways.† Again I am now a co-parent I am not a husband.† I agree with what a lot of people say here how they want to act like a family but they don't want to be an intact family? Can't have your cake and eat it too. So yeah I'm venting and complaining about it here because it makes no sense to my logical mind. Do I need to fine tune a few things every time this comes up? Sure. But I'm going to keep delivering the same answer.
"Thank you but I have plans." I just need to check myself, and what her clear intentions are. That's all.

I'm not going to lie I do want to go and she even extended the opportunity for me to go with S2 tomorrow again and again and again after me politely refusing 3 times. We had a little discussion before she left, she was upset with leaving S2 behind ( because he has ear and sinus infection), so I validated, and empathized.† So who is really benefiting besides S2 and myself by seeing her family? Or is she benefiting by S2 being there. (If he feels better.) She's obviously not asking me because she wants me there. It's just an extended courtesy. By consistantly declining these functions, am I operating on principle pride and stubborness? Or by me attending these things, would it be helpful for me in the future to mend some fences? I'm sorry but men and women have totally different mindsets. Women who are no longer romantically attracted to someone usually think. "Ok ...but he will make a good friend if I keep him around." That's usury IMHO. and not self respecting to someone that dumped them, their family and their marriage.

I'm going off into another segway here but. Some people confuse self-help self-exploration self care and self-improvement with taking care of themselves and reinventing themselves with "Im doing this to better myself or feel good, or Im doing this for my children."† I'm not saying give yourself away so the extent of your completely exhausted and drained emotionally and physically to a shell of your former self. Which is the position of lot of these WAW'S are in. Trust me I get it ladies about losing your identity in these and I can understand how a woman or even a Man can go through that as far as their identity, their changes, their purpose and their self worth, losing it and needing to find it for reasons of childhood trauma, or whatever reason etc.. Your sacrifice to your spouse and your family shouldn't cost you your sanity and your health and well being. I don't want to see these people like my XW and all of your W's unhappy, directionless, hurting, and conformed to someone else's idea of what they think they should be, they should have the freedom to make a change and be themselves, the new selves if they want to. But... But... I still think that they are short-sighted at best, and breaking up the family separating and divorcing by means of gaining back themselves, may be beneficial in the short run but not in the long run.† I still find it to be that they are unawaringly a tad selfish in the pursuit of seeking happiness and saving themselves. IMHO. No one should ever control anyone in a marriage or in love or relationship But a lot of the WAS's here refused to see the chaos that they are causing the other person, not to mention the division of the family, hurt to the children, etc.† Plus the expenditure of monetary means and assets that are really not necessary in fighting in all of this. When it comes down to the nitty-gritty of alimony and child support. (I'm sure most children turn out fine with divorced and separated parents.)

Keep this in mind because this important. In our culture. Even the best intended people who are commited to solely working on themselves after a divorce or breakup. Are going to date. Are going to sleep with people, for the sake of testing the waters of compatibility, companionship, pleasure, loneliness, experimentation, urge, and satisfaction. THAT DOESNT MEAN THEY ARE PURSUING OR INVOLVED IN A RELATIONSHIP. I may be projecting a little, but its just what I see in our culture, all around me, in other sich's and eventually in my own as well. Just fallen nature.

But this is how I think most men see it. Logically. They invested in a woman a bride, a wife, a helpmate, a lover, a family, a home, his love, his hard work, his commitment, his sacrifice for life. Now add the expense and grief of lawyers, court costs, selling of marital home, CS. And if by some miracle you get 50/50 custody as a man. Otherwise you'll be seeing your children every other weekend.† all because someone woke up one day and thought I'm not happy and they had a midlife crisis or midlife transition.

That normal everyday marital arguments turn into being emotionally abusive and incompatible. That resentment that built within them without ever being addressed, but having expectations that no person could ever meet.† That everything is supposed to be feelings and fairytale romances without ever having to work hard for anything or learn new means of communications, stragety, compromise, or coping skills through pro marital therapy or counciling.† Isn't that why we are all here because we knew a part of us screwed up, and we want to learn, change and grow, but a part of us also knows that the other person should also take accountability and responsibility for the downward slide of the M. I think it there are a lot of great men and women here that understand our positions as well as our spouses. But IMHO. I still believe that in Western culture a lot of women really do not see or care about the struggles that men go through during a divorce, or the long term effects of it. That's what I don't see. I don't see that in every single one of our situations is the accountability or empathetic compassion of the other person they are hurting or their struggles. I don't see many women advocates for men. Or vice versa. I don't see a balance in the family courts regarding split asserts, income, CS, and award of 50/50 custody unless there is neglect involved from a man's perspective.

The WAS only care about themselves in these moments of crisis... The M or F. It's selfishness and ungodly at the core. Even though they may not realize it. Even if they're intentions are good. Men become walking ATMs for their resources, and are considered utilities in our society, and women become objectified sex objects by men as a result of all this. Its dehumanizing on both accounts.

If a man is obligated by society, by morale, as well as legally obligated by the family courts to provide to their ex spouses, children and families, then why do women in our society get to sherk all accountability, responsibility, and get to start their lives over with after divorce along with a new BF, more resources, at the BF's expense as well as the XH's? If this isn't dual mating stragety, I don't know what is?

The WAS thinks that if they just go on enough trips abroad, have enough new experiences, have enough affairs, find a new beau, get enough hobbies, do enough GAL, enough GGW or Guys GW, have a huge social life, obtain enough money, do enough therapy, fulfil all of their desires, buy enough makeup, enough clothes, perfumes and cologne, go to the gym enough, gets enough praise and external validation, leaves the person they once were the most intimate with that they will be happy. They think that they will be happy if they mediate enough, practice the law of attraction or karma, will it to the universe, draw up poster boards of all their desires in life, the places that they want to live, life they want to experience, that they will eventually receive or achieve it. Please by all means everyone strive to be your best. Always continue to improve.† And although I don't want to impose my Christian beliefs on anyone here just needs to be said. There is your will and desire and then there's God's Will and purpose for your life. I choose to be happy and I choose to be grateful for everyday and I choose to trust in him. God created the universe, the law of attraction, and he is good in everything in your life. To acknowledge a source of power such as Reiki, Chakras, Horoscopes, or the law of attraction for meditation. Is to deny the source of its power.† I would rather live a physically bankrupt life then spiritually bankrupt life. Our society is morally and spiritually bankrupt. If it wasn't, you wouldn't see so much corruption, so much ungodly influence, and you wouldn't see so many marriages fail.

Again so short-sighted. When you are old and gray and have no one to take care of you or if you are fortunate to have someone take care of you, you're still going to be having blended families, and our children missing out on what would have been a lot of good and sacred life lessons in being raised.† Divorce busting taught me this if anything happiness is a choice and it comes from within. It is in my case, the only thing I will have after this D is Jesus Christ, God and their purpose for my life. Not my own, and not by my own will. Only he can change hearts and minds if we are willing to accept. I hope and pray someday more people realize this in the quest for their lives, and hope and pray that our spouses realize this as well, that being scared of dying, and seeking out all your pleasures and desires in this world and in this life can be fruitful, or fruitless depending on how influenced we are, and how big our ego is. I would think it eventually leaves you spiritually bankrupt in the tide and the wake of whom they and we also hurt, in the long run.

Sorry I know my thoughts are all over the place. Its difficult to summarize and write these things and give some kind of order, clairity or presentation to them for me. Sometimes I feel like im too busy writing and thinking these things that I am learning, need to learn, that I am wasting my time, when I could be enjoying it, living, acomplishing, and playing with S2. Eventually I will get to a place where there is less reflection, more action, and more upward movement. I am also relearning what reality is, who I am, and who I will be in all of this.

Posted By: LH19

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 10/13/19 02:00 PM

I,

Plain in simple she is not reconsidering recon right now she is most likely being polite asking you along. ďNo thanks I have plansĒ you could be going to X if you have son or Y if you donít have son.

You and W keep holding on to the victim mentality and that is not a healthy attitude. You are both extremely codependent and if you donít fix that you will almost certainly be back here again.

Iím not discounting that this isnít hard. Itís the hardest fuching thing Iíve ever been through but wallowing, being vindictive, bitterness will get you know where my friend.

Be the lighthouse man!
Posted By: IHCLACS

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 10/13/19 02:58 PM

No more co dependency. Haven't been co dependant in months. Im moving out, she's carrying on with her life. I'm carrying on with mine. As far as the victim mentality. It comes and goes. The more I become independent. The more it will go. I got plans to do some major overhauls internally and externally. Its just carrying all these realizations that I learn here and elsewhere around until I get there. I don't want her to consider recon right now, I just want to get my life right and so does she. I'm really fine with whatever outcome at this point with no expectations. Its just learning and thinking about all these new things and applying them in your life. I guess the only thing right now that disappoints me is thst people who divorce trade don't think about long term outcomes, only short term relief. Its disempowering and heart breaking. But it is what it is. Gotta keep moving forward.
Posted By: IHCLACS

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 10/15/19 04:44 PM

Hey guys,

I have a topic and a behavioral dynamic that I have touched upon early in my sich about 6 months ago that is still affecting me. (Its not going to matter in 15 days because I'm moving.)

I would like to cover the topic of "emotional grey rock method" and how it applies to the "narcissist vs empath" behavioral dynamic, and if anyone here has experienced, or is currently putting such "psychological techniques" into practice with their ex's.

So what "emotional grey rock" technique or method consists of to those who arent familiar with it. The grey rock method is a practice where an individual becomes emotionally non-responsive, boring, and virtually acts like a rock. Emotional detachment serves to undermine a narcissist's attempts to lure and manipulate, causing them to grow uninterested and bored. Gray Rock is primarily a way of encouraging a psychopath, a stalker or other emotionally unbalanced person, to lose interest in you.

To most of you, especially the LBS this can simply feel like the other person "growing cold" or "giving the silent treatment" torwards you. This has been going on in my sich for at least 9 months IHS.

The reason why I bring this up is because, I can see from the side of the person who is being manipulated by a true narcissist "who always feels like they are walking on egg shells" how this can be a psychological defense mechanism in preserving themselves. I get it that they are hurt, hurting, and either may have a partial reflection of us, our previous behaviors, or a reflection of themselves which has nothing to do with us

If a spouse pulls away romantically, I don't have to like it, but I do have to accept it eventually at some point in time, deal with current reality that this person is who they are and chooses not to have us be a part of their lives in any form other than kids, and that's fine. But at what point does them doing this become emotionally manipulative as well? I find it to be just as childish as the silent treatment. IMHO I think it fits into the area of pop psychology, should only be given so much validity, and is emotionally numbing, and immature. I'm not saying that a distant or removed Ex spouse has to adorn us with attention and praise and laughter even if just as a friend. But when you clearly observe someone acting robotic around you, and only you for over a year, you can't help but take notice when a person is happy, and inquiring, and pleasant around everyone else but you.

So yesterday I did a lot of reading of scripture and God's word and tried to take my mind off my sich, and focus on the things that may get my mind, attitude and spirit right. That made me happy. I chose to be happy yesterday no matter what. My patience, focus and understanding is increasing. Everyday while I am away from or not in contact with XW. I try to build myself up to always be a better person regardless of who I interact with. I want to change how I perceive the world, and how I interact with it and be more positive, more compassionate, more empathetic, and more understanding. But when I go "home" my progress doesn't come unglued, but is definately met with wilfull resistance.

Here is a typical example of everyday life and the dynamics between us for the last 8 months, since XW went completely cold, started putting her needs, wants, desires for self exploration, self improvement, self entitlement to S2, That she wants to have primary custody, more money, and more experiences in life, and villianizes me constantly of the portrayal of my role and presence over the last 8 months around her, and and S2.

I came home from work, asked about S2 with XW, and went about my business. Greeted BIL. Was short but pleasant. Asked about BIL's day. Did the same with XW and left it at that. XW makes a mention that BIL's dog found a mouse in his now basement apartment. (As if she wanted me to do something about it, or as if I was in some way responsible for it.) I just replied, "Well it is fall, and they do hibernate and gather in the fall." (She thinks they are more present in the spring.) Later on with S2 while I was listening to a Christian Joyce Meyer video on relationships with yourself. (Awesome video BTW.) S2 grabbed a crayon and started writing all over the window. I tried to deter him from doing so, but it was too late. So I figured at that point I might as well let him go to town, and I would simply wipe it off later. XW eventually came out of bedroom and attempted to reprimand me for allowing S2 to do that. I explained to her that I tried to deter him and I didn't want to encourage him in doing that in the future, but by what he already did, it was pointless to stop him, and that I would take care of it and clean it off.

This is the part where it gets completely ridiculous, and reflects the dysfunctional dynamics between us for the last year or two, but more so now.)† So XW went to dry erase the crayon off the window, which is a good method, (I tell her this.)† but leaves a film still. I use lighter fluid or goof off to remove stuff like that because it works even better, and doesn't leave any residue behind. Although a short instance, XW proceeded to argue with me about how her method was better, and that mine uses chemicals, and I should avoid it, and that I should proceed to wipe my half of the crayon marks, and she do her side. (Not as a test of who's method is better, or division of chore, but as a division of space, in other words, "Don't do something too close to me.") I politely explain to her that although are her method is good, it leaves behind a film. That lighter fluid has naphta in it, and is meant for removing stuff like that, and dissipates quickly, and actually doesn't leave behind any chemical residue or trace. That neither one of us has to be right or wrong or better, that we both have our solutions for dealing with the issue, and that this doesn't have to turn into a petty argument, and we can utilize both methods together, but separately if she wishes.

Fast forward to later in the evening, we both play with S2, feed him, watch him, etc. She has a pleasant convo with BIL about improvement to basement. We watch a few funny YouTube videos on the TV with S2 and we all laugh. Everything is pleasant. I for the most part mind my business. XW cuts up apples for S2 to snack on, I put some peanut butter on them, S2 gets peanut butter residue in hair and hands, but nothing visually noticeable. XW smells peanut butter on him, suggests a bath, even though I gave him a bath one evening prior. It is now 8:30pm already 30 min past S2's bedtime, so I find a bath to be impractical at this point. XW makes a good valid point about other kids in daycare potentially having peanut allergies. I actually agree with her, and that she has a good point. I get him cleaned up. Wipe wash his hair, and remove his fleece. He's good to go. I get his bottle ready. I make a joke about how it would be funny if S2 was on playground at school, and a whole flock of squirrels started gathering around him because he smells like peanut butter. That he could be the squirrel wisperer. XW finds this amusingly funny, and forceably chuckles a little.

Last weekend was my weekend off with S2, but I concessions it to XW so she could attend annual family function. I mentioned this in my previous posts. I had to work Sat mandatory. But XW got to go away overnight and enjoy family. After XW called next day to check in on S2, XW COUSIN calls me from XW'S phone immediately after to give me the rundown on their fun activities, says she loves me and misses me, wishes I was there. That I miss them too, and hope they are having a good time. (I actually was invited and politefully declined.) Watching sick S2. We converse what's going on in our lives and she mentions her husband's birthday. I mention I'm getting ready to move soon. We have a really nice conversation, and end the phone call after 15 minutes. ( It's funny how XW and I are happy and fun and are ourselves around all of our own family members but around each other.)

So anywhere where I'm going with this is later on last evening, after the peanut butter incident. XW asks me if I can watch S2 for a few hours so she can go get a mani/pedi this Sat. As an assumed even trade for her watching S2 while I had to work last Sat. Even though it was technically my weekend off and I was doing her the favor willingly by watching him. She said that I could have the following weekend off. (Basically she was already deciding for me.) I told her I would have to think about it as I may be making plans, and would let her know about Sat. Also made a point that I should get to decide when to redeem the weekend I offered up out of courtesy to be fair.

These instances and requests which I encounter weekly for the last 9 months pi$$ me off silently and secretly for several reasons.† Be it that I'm usually working to survive, in the midst of forcibly moving out of my own home, and that I never hardly get to arrange any leisurely or fun activities or self care for myself, because it is always requested and assumed I will swap blocks of time with XW to watch S2 during events where she goes and GAL's. Its been this way all throughout the summer, and I am a little jealous because I have had ZERO experiences this year. No vacation, no getaway, used up my PTO Vac. Week early in the year to watch S2 back in April. I am working past this jealousy, and just taking it as it is what it is. I've been good with holding the line as far as trading time depending on what she is requesting it for.

Last night I also made another joke about something trivial, I forget... Oh S2 took t shirt off, and XW made comment about him being "Magic Mike" like the stripper that Matthew McConahuey played. I replied back in a kidding way, and although I shouldn't have said it. I said "No our S2 will never be a male stripper, and that its shameful." She obviously didn't find it funny even in my over exaggerated tonality to let her know I was kidding. Ok...Then I notice XW puts on her robotic face again in front of me. Almost as if to demonstrate. "I am not responding or reacting to your comment and am ignoring you." Doing the gray rock thing again.

Now guys. Before anyone labels me as a narcissist or having narcisstic tendencies, or seeking approval or reactions, drama or validation from people. I have gotten so accustomed to this manipulative "silent treatment" for so long in IHS , that I find comical, immature, emotionally manipulative and numbing to the other person that I usually pay no mind to it. I am not seeking to reconnect or reconcile anything with anyone at this time, or win anybody over. I can literally take anyone or leave anyone at present face value dependant on their current behavior.

But every once in a while it gets under my skin because I see it for what it is. Its another person protecting themselves from any emotional interaction or attachment that they deem to be the other person in their own mind "emotionally unstable" but from my POV the only thing it accomplishes is making them even more numb and emotionally suppressive and unstable themselves as a result of doing this "Gray Rock Method."

This is what XW has been doing for the last 9 months in most interactions. She will intently stare at the TV screen, intently distract herself with her phone, with games, messages, etc in front of me or my presence, in all circumstances, avoid most eye contact, and intently preoccupy and smother S2 to remove acknowledgement of my presence when I am around S2 and her. She does however acknowledge my presence for S2. Even though I ignore it, and her, and don't pay any mind to this behavior of hers. I don't feel the need for her to be paying attention to me, but again, sometimes it just gets under my skin because it feels like some psych game, even when I am being nice just for the sake of being nice without any ulterior motive other than to be a better version of myself. She's basically demonstrating I am non existent. I called her out on it politely about 6 to 7 months ago, and it was projected onto me by her that she is just protecting herself, and I am the one playing the mind games. So its fruitless to even address it, argue about it, or resolve it. I am no longer externally reactive to it. But it does light a fire in my belly every now and again when it does occur.

I will be glad to be rid of these types of interactions once I move in 15 days as they are a huge influence on my own well being. I know... Detach detach detach. Let it roll off you like water on a ducks back.

I guess the reason why I'm writing about all this is in wondering if anyone has experienced this type of increasing dysfunction and how the cope with it, deal with it, etc. I understand why they are doing it, but that doesn't mean that I don't find it childish or manipulative.
Posted By: AnotherStander

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 10/15/19 07:16 PM

IH, it sounds to me like you are pushing her buttons. The Magic Mike comment for example, she makes a joke and you say something back that can easily be construed as your distaste for her joke with a little "holier than thou" attitude thrown in for good measure. Now you could write a paragraph about what your real intent was and how you were joking etc. etc. but the bottom line is that is how it reads to me and more than likely she was insulted by it.

Same thing with your "better" idea on how to clean the window. She's probably thinking that nothing she does is "good enough" for you. Thus the gray rock reaction, because anything else is just going to net a lecture from you similar to the lecture you gave her on WHY your window cleaning idea is "better".

The real question here is why does her gray rock reaction push your buttons? Because she's not engaging? Grey rock is what YOU should be doing with her! Quit lecturing her! She starts cleaning the window in a way you don't like? Drink a nice tall glass of STFU and let her. She tells a joke you don't like? Smile or chuckle and go about your business.
Posted By: CWarrior

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 10/16/19 08:46 AM

Originally Posted by "IHLACS"
I guess the reason why I'm writing about all this is in wondering if anyone has experienced this type of increasing dysfunction and how the cope with it, deal with it, etc.

Well..

Originally Posted by "IHLACS"
So XW went to dry erase the crayon off the window, which is a good method, (I tell her this.) but leaves a film still. I use lighter fluid or goof off to remove stuff like that because it works even better, and doesn't leave any residue behind.

Oof. Unsolicited advice.

Originally Posted by "IHLACS"
Although a short instance, XW proceeded to argue with me about how her method was better, and that mine uses chemicals

She prefers her way--your is more comprehensive, hers is more green.

Originally Posted by "IHLACS"
I politely explain..

Oof! Mainsplaining.

ICLACS, I think this was unnecessary. First, you could skip offering unsolicited advice. Second, when she disagrees, you could prefer listening, validating, and being curious to "explaining" your view. Even when you must explain your view, considering their view first often makes others more receptive.
Posted By: CWarrior

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 10/16/19 05:32 PM

Originally Posted by IHLACS
I said "No our S2 will never be a male stripper, and that its shameful." She obviously didn't find it funny even in my over exaggerated tonality to let her know I was kidding. Ok...Then I notice XW puts on her robotic face again in front of me. Doing the gray rock thing again.

So your intent was to be silly, but your message didn't have the desired impact. If I were to wager a guess, something in that message triggered her, and the grey rock method is a means to protect herself because she felt hurt in that moment. It must feel frustrating that your once wife feels the need to protect herself. If you can intuit the trigger (e.g., AnotherStander believes she interpreted disapproval), you could avoid hitting it again. You don't have to try to avoid pushing her buttons, but it could make future interactions smoother.
Posted By: DS9

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 10/16/19 11:16 PM

Originally Posted by IHCLACS
Hey guys,

I guess the reason why I'm writing about all this is in wondering if anyone has experienced this type of increasing dysfunction and how the cope with it, deal with it, etc. I understand why they are doing it, but that doesn't mean that I don't find it childish or manipulative.



Hey IH how you doing buddy?

This psych thing she's doing with ignoring you is what I got too. I endured it for weeks and weeks. Glued to the Iphone, for hours, giggling and joking with SD, SD and XW playing loud music, hanging out and laughing in the bathroom...

Let it all wash over you. Its how some XW's keep their minds busy, probably to drown out the thoughts swirling in their heads. Don't raise it with her ever again.

Nice job in moving out soon. Good place? How you going to put your personal touches on it mate?

Cheers DS
Posted By: IHCLACS

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 10/23/19 08:11 PM

Give this a read. You'll start to understand the process of how their minds got here in the first place. But more importantly pay attention to your own behaviors as well.

https://themindsjournal.com/10-ways-instincts-bad-relationship/
Posted By: IHCLACS

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 10/25/19 10:30 PM

Im home with the kid tonight. XW was deep in her phone before not paying attention to anything around her including S2
I walked by her to go out for a smoke, and she minimized what she was doing on her phone. Then I walked back in again, and she presented like she was doing something with her thumbs while just staying on the pin lock screen. Hiding what she was looking at twice. She got all dolled up and went out.

D BIL has been living in basement the last 3 weeks. He's boffing this Colombian girl from a dating app who doesn't speak a lick of English, has kids back in Columbia, and here on a green card.
He had her in the basement all last weekend. I never saw it met her. XW and I went pumpkin picking with S2 which I invited her at first, then had 2nd thoughts because she was only coming along for S2 and confirmed this. We still had fun. We had a talk about how BIL had GF over house during weekend. I didn't even know she was in the house. XW brought it to my attention during pumpkin picking. That she wanted to create some boundaries with BIL about using the garage entrance and putting a door on from kitchen to basement, and not expose BIL GF to S2. So anyway after XW left. BIL new GF showed up just now looking for him, and doesn't have a car, and is waiting for him outside.. I called XW and texted me back BIL is on his way. I have her waiting outside. I'm not letting her in the house unless BIL is here or anywhere near S2. Getting tired of these Jerry Springer drama scenarios. I need to protect myself and S2 from this craziness. But I can't because I'm moving anyway. PSA agreement hasn't been signed, and house doesn't sell until next year. Getting parental agreement in place and starting up mediation in the next few weeks. I'm calm and I'm fine and relaxed. But internally I've had it with this F@!king horse$hit. Well at least I know my moral compass is due north.
Posted By: DS9

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 10/30/19 06:26 AM

Hey IH

How you been mate? It does sound like Jerry Springer. I'm sorry you're going through all that stuff, but glad to hear you're keeping it calm, fine and relaxed. How long again is it til you move out? Tell us about your new place. Cheers DS
Posted By: DS9

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 10/30/19 06:29 AM

Oh and checkout 31 October and your star sign (Virgo?). Apparently its some sort of crazy astrological day (31 October 2019)
Posted By: IHCLACS

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 10/31/19 01:59 AM

Next few days are going to be rough with move coming Sat. God I hope I live through this without having a breakdown. Saying goodbye to a lot of things and people memories and way of life with not a whole lot to look forward to, but I'm trying.
Posted By: DS9

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 10/31/19 02:08 AM

You got this IH.

You need to keep uber busy on Saturday to not think about the emotional aspects of the move. Have you got friends on board to help? If I was in the US I'd be there helping you buddy! Keep busy and chatting with them throughout. As soon as you've moved, get out there and try to get some nice homewares and decorative pieces that'll lift your spirits. Get some nice incense, do some sage smudging, and sea salt on the floor of each house entrance. Keep some nice calming music playing in the background.

If you're feeling down still, take a break and post how you're feeling in the forum. I'll be checking in on you ok!

So what's the new place like? Describe in detail please! Man cave options?? Nice places nearby to take your son?
Posted By: IHCLACS

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 10/31/19 01:46 PM

Well DS9. The first thing Im going to do is unload my kitchen ware, my cast iron collection, and my clothes and effects and get settled in. Get some dishware. (XW offered her old wares but I don't want any memories or reminders of her around me all the way down to the forks. I need to heal.) I haven't really cooked for myself much for pleasure in the last year. Been eating fast food everyday. Looking forward to getting back into cooking for myself for plead ure.Her and her Aunt used to do that Sage Sea Salt thing. I might consider it. Definately hear you on the music and incense.

Im going to have to go back multiple trips over the next month to make sure I get everything. Especially the garage and yard. The new place is a one bedroom that needs a little work. Bottom floor of two family. Got a huge shed for tools. Yard/Field in the back. I can play with my pizza oven which I haven't touched in a year. Debating if I want to move the four cords of wood for now XW house that I labored for. There are probably a lot of tools and stuff I can purge that I'm carrying with me. Im not really too prepared for this move other than needs. Once I get settled and stuff unpacked over the next week will keep everyone posted on progress. Still can't believe this is happening. But ill face it head on. Plow through it, and make the best of my life for now.
Posted By: Thornton

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 10/31/19 03:20 PM

Hang in there, IH!

You're strong and will grow from this experience no matter what happens in your M.
Posted By: IronWill

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 10/31/19 03:47 PM

Hey IH

Definitely keep yourself busy that day - moving around a lot, so much so that you are exhausted and too tired at the end of the day to think about anything.

Take it one minute at a time, one hour at a time, one day at a time. And don't forget to do something fun for yourself too.
smile
Posted By: IHCLACS

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 10/31/19 04:14 PM

Thanks for the support guys. I just realized. Today is the 7th year my father passed during hurricane Sandy. Going trick or treating at the mall with S2 later and XW since its raining. After this though I'm gone and done doing family functions. I need to heal. Done being treated like a stranger after 12 years who's only purpose is to fill joint parental time for special occasions. I will make my own special occasions with S2 from here on out. Requested mediation resume after a few weeks I get settled before T giving.
Posted By: unchien

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 10/31/19 07:52 PM

Hey IHC - Like others have said, focus on doing "the next thing" as best as you can.

My experience this summer was that the first couple days of the move were so busy I didn't have time for emotions to set in. A week or two later is when things started to hit me harder. I'm 4 months gone now and still working on making it feel like a home, but it does get better. It just takes some time. Hang in there.
Posted By: DS9

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 11/02/19 09:29 AM

Hey ih how you doing buddy? Howís the move going? Keep us posted!

Looking forward to some sagacious commentary from you too about your musings on moving to a new place!
Posted By: IHCLACS

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 11/02/19 10:12 AM

Morning. Thanks boys for the support it means a lot. It's going to be just fine :-) I'm a little worried about the XW. She's hurting bad. Will update later tonight after I get settled.
Posted By: DS9

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 11/02/19 01:27 PM

Ok mate sounds good! Use good lifting techniques
Posted By: rooskers

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 11/02/19 02:05 PM

Quote
I'm a little worried about the XW. She's hurting bad.


If someone wishes for good health, one must first ask oneself if he is ready to do away with the reasons for his illness. Only then is it possible to heal oneself.

Adapted from ~Hippocrates

Hang in there IHC.
Posted By: DS9

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 11/05/19 03:33 AM

Hey IH,

How's things going? How was the move?
Posted By: IHCLACS

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 11/05/19 11:29 AM

Sorry been so busy last couple of days haven't had time. Started composing response yesterday, then something new developed. Will update later tonight.
Posted By: DS9

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 11/05/19 01:02 PM

Ok mate hope allís well
Posted By: LH19

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 11/08/19 07:24 PM

IH,

Still waiting on the new developments in your story.
Posted By: DS9

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 11/12/19 11:56 PM

Hey IH

What's happening mate? Can you let us know what these developments are?

Cheers DS
Posted By: IHCLACS

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 11/13/19 06:54 PM

Have had a lot of massive massive realizations, and a few unpleasant circumstances regarding S2.†Been very introspective lately. I'm going to have to summarize it which may take a while. I wish sometimes I had a tape recorder for my thoughts. I want to journal all this stuff, but don't want to take the time being a busy body, and put off journaling because I'm filling my life with how I want my home. Daydreaming of having family over, Christmas Thanksgiving etc. Money is tight. But I AM LOVING being alone, having things my way, and really looking forward to the future. Earlier this week XW got notice S2 that his daycare is releasing him at end of month due to developmental issues. She went into panic mode and was going to find a way to change jobs and remotely work from home. But she found a place I think to accomdate his needs. He may possibly be autism spectrum. Having him tested. I doubt it though, he's two... He is getting early intervention however. There were other convos of significance that was all about her earlier in the week I will mention later in my summary. She was upset. I gave her a hug and kiss on the forehead, said we would figure it out, and left it at that.

I noticed mid week after text from MIL I started thinking about XW all day at work and all the past experiences. Realized that I trained my brain over the last year to think about her and situation of last year at work. The next day I brought her soup since she was sick when picking up S2. She was on the phone with MIL who was supposed to bring XW dinner, but couldn't because of last round of chemo. XW never mentioned I brought her dinner in convo. Whatever...Offered to take S2 Friday all into the weekend. I originally had Friday off. I did it to alleviate her as a nice gesture to give her a break and I wanted extra time with S2 anyway.† No thank you or gratitude, just an offer she was more than happy to ask about and accept so she could go out. Midweek I found all vday cards birthday cards, pictures etc. Going back 12 years. Eyes welled up a little and I boxed them up. Afterward I was good. Forever my @$$!!!.. Last Friday picked up the kid. She was dressed up ready to go, nails painted, etc. Saw a red piece of lingerie from the hallway on her bed when I grabbed the kid. Could be my imagination playing tricks but again... The red flags...Went to a toy convention with the kid Sat. It was awesome! Free classic arcade games, Al kinds of old nostagic toys. Rock em sock em robots, Evel Kenevel stunt sets, TMNT, loads of Star Wars stuff. Board games. Darth Vader, Bobafet, and a few other characters were there. All kinds of video game consoles from Collecovision, Atari to Nintendo, etc. We had a great time all weekend until he got sick again Sun. He hasn't been able to kick his cold in over a month.† XW found another facility for S2 to transition into. Cheaper cost too because of her affiliations with county behavioral special services.

So the conversation of somewhat significant I had with XW last week was her doing most of the talking and I JUST VVVAAALIDDDAATTED.... LOL..(Oh brother! The lingo around here.) XW was saying she was feeling sad over all the circumstances with parents, us, S2, family, etc. That she has no support and no one to talk to other than therapists about all this and maybe a few family members. She said that she hasn't seen her friends since the summer and hasn't talked to them much about everything. That she was growing distant a little with them too because they all have families, lives, etc. (I think that's b.s. with one of them cause wedding invite came multiple times back with maiden name.) We traded comparisons on how she felt like she never gets out, and how I felt the same way about my own social life. We both perceived that we were going out a lot apart from one another when I was IHS until last week. (I'm pretty sure she's hanging around with brother's divorced ex GF.) Always dressing up potentially going on double dates, but I could be wrong. She went on to say how my brother's ex GF was encouraging her to look at other men, and that she can't even begin to consider that, that she needs to process all this and feel sad for a while, find her tribe, develop new aspects of her life, health, mental, business, etc.. I actually encouraged her to date if she feels like it when she ready because I'm just done being insecure, and since I moved out I just don't GAF! She went on to say how she still feels so inauthentic as a person when taking with people, like she is still putting on a social mask which she has done her whole life..NGS (Nice girl syndrome.) That she just wants to be real with everyone. That she just needs to feel sad for a while, make life changes and process this. She tried to probe about me going out and what I'm doing. Just kept it basic in reply. Cigar smoking, hanging with the boys, and band practice. I noticed she volunteered nothing about activities. I know I need to be a little more mysterious. Gave her the standard response of "The last thing I need in my life right now is another woman. I need to focus on me, S2, and life transitions." Since that convo I've been very short in response and convo. Only about S2. For the first week I didn't give her my full address when she asked for it. Just town and road. At first she was extremely curious and wanted to see the place, then played it off for emergency purposes related to S2, which I understand. She thought I was being paranoid at first. I made it clear to respect my privacy and call before ever showing up. We agreed only for S2 pickups and emergencies, and agreed to notify one another when taking S2 out of the general area.

But then I had her pick up S2 and gave her the tour the other night. She was a bit envious.

Honestly I am absolutely loving living alone and focusing on me. What I'm doing what I want how I want things, etc. Moving my garage and tools this weekend which will be a nightmare into itself, but... Onward and upward. Detaching and loving it. Mediation may start back up in the next few weeks. XW is already making a lot of changes around the house, and some professional and personal development, turned the MBR into a work out room and office in a week. I took off from work today to watch. S2 he is sick with a nasty viral infection cough and fever which has been persistent for over a month. Im noticing more changes around (Now her house.) the house, and it doesn't even feel like I lived here after a week. So I am accepting it well, and her changes well and moving on with my progress and my life slowly day by day so that's good. Onward and upward. Its just the stupid stuff that momentarily pi$$es me off for like 60 seconds. Like now she cleans off and eats at the table and decorates, now she cleans the dishes and cleans up after herself, now she starts cooking and eating healthier, now she wants to better her life and herself for someone else. Anyone else. Now she allows BIL's dog but is allergic to pets. Its not that she didn't want to change, she just didn't want to change for me, but Im sure she could say theme same about the changes I am making too. Its like all these changes I wouldn't have had so many complaints in the M in the first place and loss of attraction. But Im over it now in less tgan 30 seconds. We are both changing for ourselves so that's good, and Im ok with it.

Funny out of completely nowhere. I am getting dates out the ying yang online. I made one for next week and am just keeping everything strictly platonic for now just for the sake of being social getting and to know people. Not going anywhere near relationships. I never thought I would say this but I really am loving being alone, focusing on myself, having a few new experiences, developing a few new habits and revisiting old hood ones. The more I focus on bettering my life doing somethings that I enjoy, without being co dependant on another, the more I forget about her and who she was and how things were little by little every day. I'm not replying to texts right away, not picking up phone calls immediately and keeping comms very basic but friendly. My anxiety has lessened a great deal. Im actually starting to see her as a person now, but as an XW and not a W. Slowly every day. So I'm ok for now. I set some friendly boundaries, I help when needed with S2 and I keep it nice but business like. The thing is now... I want to keep it this way. Not for the sake of attracting her back any longer but because I actually want my own life, privacy, and freedom, and allow her to do the same. I feel a little healthier, and I'm on my way slowly to my best version.

Ill update in a few weeks...lol..Sorry I do massive story dumps..
Posted By: IHCLACS

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 11/13/19 07:06 PM

Something I've been meaning to ask those here. Once they have moved out and seperated,
..Did you guys ever get the temporary feeling that you were leading a double life? I mean its only been a week in my new place but Im liking the new normal, and what I am looking forward to doung with myself and the place a little at a timevinde money allows it. I've surprisingly settled into my new normal fairly well in the last week. But I get these momentary sensations sometimes like I'm leading a double life between the old and the new. New pursuits, changes, people, hobbies, places, habits, etc. Anyone here ever have this experience?
Posted By: AnotherStander

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 11/13/19 10:03 PM

Originally Posted by IHCLACS
Something I've been meaning to ask those here. Once they have moved out and seperated,
..Did you guys ever get the temporary feeling that you were leading a double life?


Oh yes indeed, well you kind of do. You still have your parental responsibilities, so you're a part-time family man. But then you start dipping your toe into the dating pool so you're a single dating person part of the time. It takes an adjustment to get used to that. When I started dating it was really weird. I had just hard-wired myself to be loyal to that one person, so it took a while to warm up to the idea of being intimate with someone else.
Posted By: IHCLACS

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 11/13/19 11:48 PM

Yeah AS that's exactly what is going through my mind. Its like every little step torwards meeting new people in a dating sense feels like I'm being disloyal to another person, or the idea of another person, and myself, but then logic kicks in and I realize that this person no longer has no loyalty or commitment to me based on their past year of actions.

This is all a very different experience for me because in past relationships, the other person went away. So? Detachment occurred naturally. But when you have to speak with Ex over kids, finances, settlements, etc. That person never just goes away. Feelings still get stirred, but they lessen and become less frequent over time when you limit contact and attachment through time and space.

I almost feel like I'm doing something wrong, and being a hypocrite even though I am not. Being cheated on before, I despise them, and despise people who grab one hand before letting go of another. Or monkey branching. But people justify their actions in all different contexts. "Well I'm not in love with him/her so I can pursue others" "We were on a break so technically its ok." Or "He/She makes me feel good about myself and alive" or "There's nothing wrong with a new experience" or "Its just a date, I'm not marrying the person, or having sex with them Im just getting to know people. "

The ink on my divorce is not dry, hell it hasn't even been drafted yet...I really should wait until its final, but I gotta live and be social and enjoy life too while still rolling solo and working on myself ya know?
Posted By: LovingIt

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 11/14/19 12:31 AM

How do you go on dates and describe your current situation? I've fantasized about having platonic dates - if such a thing exists. But I feel like respectable person would steer away, or you have to lie to them, which is a bad way to meet people. So have not been able to pull the trigger.
Posted By: IHCLACS

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 11/14/19 02:27 AM

Yeah I believe in being candid, honest and authentic about any expectations or lack there of. I don't like to waste anyone's time. I plan on full disclosure after some pleasant "get to know you" chit chat, see how it goes, and then mention it later. I don't lie. Some people are just looking for friends, relationships, no hook ups, see how it goes, etc. I figure what do I or they have to lose besides an hour of time and a cup of coffee? Just did the phone thing so far. I figure it this way? At the very least? I made a new friend. What do I have to lose? Already lost my XW and the house? I haven't been on a date in 12 years, but I used to do online dating then from 2001 to 2007. Met the XW online. So much work. Its even harder now to get someone interested with all these apps. Almost like people shopping with the swipe left swipe right b.s. Not like the chatrooms and myspace of yesteryear, its like people shopping in a sea of shallow, uninteresting, solipsistic narcissists who have been burned, and are overwhelmed with guys hitting them up constantly. On one hand I get it from they're side on the other hand, most of them are non responsive and have as much personality as a head of cabbage. I used to put out 50 messages a week back in the day, maybe get 10 responses, and 3 dates where two of them were crazy. So I know how to handle that aspect... Lol..But the way online dating today is waaay stacked in the ladies favor and geared torwards the top 20% of men. I might just hang my hat up and deem it a waste of my time, get some more social hobbies and go back to doing things the old fashion way.

Let everyone know how it goes.
Posted By: DS9

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 11/14/19 04:12 AM

Hey IH,

Just touching base mate. So glad to hear you're enjoying your new joint and single life! I wish I had your optimism!

Really enjoy reading your intellectual musings too. I must admit I thought I was top notch with knowing what words meant, but I've had to google a few that you've used! Solipsistic - classic!

Cheers DS
Posted By: AnotherStander

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 11/14/19 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by IHCLACS
Yeah AS that's exactly what is going through my mind. Its like every little step torwards meeting new people in a dating sense feels like I'm being disloyal to another person, or the idea of another person, and myself, but then logic kicks in and I realize that this person no longer has no loyalty or commitment to me based on their past year of actions.


Yeah it's a tough transition because your heart doesn't listen to your brain wink Takes your heart a while to adjust to the "new normal".

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Detachment occurred naturally. But when you have to speak with Ex over kids, finances, settlements, etc. That person never just goes away. Feelings still get stirred, but they lessen and become less frequent over time when you limit contact and attachment through time and space.


Yes and you're talking about a much longer term relationship with much deeper ties. You'll get there, but it takes a while!

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I almost feel like I'm doing something wrong, and being a hypocrite even though I am not.


Absolutely, it's normal to feel that way!

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The ink on my divorce is not dry, hell it hasn't even been drafted yet...I really should wait until its final, but I gotta live and be social and enjoy life too while still rolling solo and working on myself ya know?


It's up to you, some feel they need to wait until the D is final and others don't. Only you can make that call. You're getting close to a year since BD, dating in less than a year I feel is jumping in too soon, and even at the year mark feelings are still pretty raw. But the timeline is different for each person.
Posted By: DS9

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 11/19/19 08:03 AM

Hey ih

Just checking in. Hows the new place?
Posted By: IHCLACS

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 11/19/19 01:12 PM

The new place is coming along slowly. Looking forward to the holidays having family over, etc. Will update later this week what's going on. Emotions are fluctuating again.
Posted By: DS9

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 11/21/19 04:40 AM

Originally Posted by IHCLACS
The new place is coming along slowly. Looking forward to the holidays having family over, etc. Will update later this week what's going on. Emotions are fluctuating again.


Glad to hear you're enjoying the new place mate, but sorry to hear about the emotional rollercoaster. Keep us posted mate
Posted By: unchien

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 11/21/19 07:43 PM

IHC - Hang in there. There will be ups and downs with moving into a new place. It gets better, I guarantee it.
Posted By: DS9

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 11/26/19 06:43 AM

Hey IH

How you doing? Haven't heard from you in a while and you were going to update us...
Posted By: IHCLACS

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 11/26/19 11:58 AM

Sorry going crazy over here. A lot going on. Can't rest. Just trying to coordinate schedules with family. S2. Thanksgiving, cleaning house. Getting a table for thanksgiving dinner in time. And attending a wake. Father's coysin suddenly passed at 61. She had a heart attack last year. Almost died. Recovered. Celebrated her 1 year anniversary of living. Went on vacation last week, cane back, complained about pain in leg, may have had an embolism or blood clot and went to her heart and killed her. I think possibly the cabin pressure of the airplane ride may have had an effect. Or not? May be doing Santa photos with XW this weekend on my weekend off. Debating it...Seperate or together? Its not like we are both being photoed in it like last year just after DB.

Still feel like I'm leading two seperate lives. Standing on my principles. Some days I see the red flags and Im like. Nope! I'm good. I want to be alone. Its better off this way. I have just a little more control of me now. I listen to a lot of men"s red pill content which completely validates my experience with all the dysfunction with most relationships today. That's not to say I didn't contribute some of it? Other times I want to reconcile, but they are just moments of past atrachment that passes. It occurs with the holiday family unit stuff. But I am greatly looking forward to providing my own family with a wonderful thanksgiving this year (and some sense of normalcy) (Even though with the exception of my mother I know the rest of my family won't appreciate it and take it for granted.) I still enjoy doing it and the work even though its a lot. Coming back around to the XW. Again Im in a strange place between being stagnant with myself and growing as a person individually. Some days I still love her. Some days I hate her. Even though she hasn't done anything recently to deserve either. She has been a little more understanding and validating lately, which has surprised me. I know my feelings if wanting to reconcile lately in those brief moments only come rrom the past, what was, and what the idea I had of her was. I know she is not the same person. I only think of this when I am away. Or have a moment of humility in silence, or want to understand or be understood, or make amends for the sake of. Etc. I know it has nothing to do with current circumstance. When I drop off S2. I sometimes look at her with empathy and sometimes with disdain depending on what mood I'm in and what I'm thinking about. But I still keep the interactions pleasant, neutral, and focused on S2. We are good to one another, but we both know its going to take some time to heal all past resentments that crop up here and there for no apparent reason. I think we both care for each other as a person.

Its hard to deal with day to day. Again its Head vs. Heart and logic vs. emotions for both of I'm sure.She goes gray rock, I go gray rock. She opens up a little. I open up a little. She shuts down, I shut comms down. She plays victim. I play victim sometimes too. ( I mean after all I lost my home, family, marriage and unconditional time with S2 to an extent.) Women in general IMHO will never empathize with a man with this. Its all about her, her needs, her wants, her time and convenience with this kids, her support, etc. XW has been good however about me spending time with him so on the surface everything is cool in general. ( I just don't care for most Women's arrogance when it comes to time sharing with kids in these situations.) it's almost like they have to make you the bad guy and themselves the victim in their own mind to justify what they're doing to you.) If there is ever a midunderstandings bwtween us. Sometimes i just ignore it and carry forward, other times, I go well out of my way to make sure Im heard, acknowledge, that my feelings are acknowledged and boundaries respected. Thing that still pi$$es me off with her (And a lot of women in general is the lack of accountability, agency, and humility) That their experiences and feelings and mental narritives are more important than yours. They refuse to connect even if just plutonicly and try to see things from the man's side of just how much he loses because of their poor decisions. I still have yet to experience a woman go above and beyond and put of their way and whole hearty say Im sorry the sane way I would if someone showed me my wrongs and my hurts that I have caused. I know men (especially this one) can be stubborn at times because they want to be respected. But it is indeed earned too I'm sure on both sides through humility, restraint, understanding, and an empathy and desire to make things right, and always do the right thing.

But anyway... Carrying forward. Rebuilding my life one day at a time. Getting organized. Getting frustrated with it at times, but also enjoying the focus, the process and the experience. Hope you all have a Happy Thanksgiving. Im going to make the best of mine. Doing a wood fired Thanksgiving Turkey that's going to be awesome.
Posted By: Steve85

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 11/26/19 02:33 PM

IHC, you got this man! Remember, life is 10% what happens to us, and 90% our attitude and how we react to it! You've been here a long time and you know all of this stuff as well as any of us.

YOU GOT THIS.
Posted By: DS9

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 11/27/19 06:10 AM

Hey IH,

You've got a lot on your plate mate. It's like you read my mind too when you discussed the ebb and flow of your feeling and thoughts. You miss the what was, and what would've been. You just gotta keep DB'ing and keep your strength through the struggle.

How often do you see S2? How are his milestones going?

Man, that wood fired turkey sounds appetizing! Save a little piece of skin and drumstick for me won't you haha!

Cheers, DS
Posted By: IHCLACS

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 12/23/19 10:52 PM

Wow I haven't been on my own sich in over a month.

I've honestly been avoiding it as I didn't want to come here to complain.

So here is what has happened so far on XW side of the street since then. I'm only stating this to point out inconsistencies in her behaviors. Thanksgiving day. XW dropped S2 off at my apartment. Expected me to say hi to her grandmother in the vehicle which I did. I asked her if she wanted to pop in and say hi. She didn't want to come in for a sec to say hi to my family, and used getting her grandmother home as an excuse...(Ok. N.P.)
Her SOP response for anything extra curricular on her time is "I have an appointment." Doesn't volunteer anything. Been that way since April. (Nothing changed there.) Week after Thanksgiving I get the "I have an appointment, I have an appointment bit." She shows up one weeknight to pickup S2 in a brand new SUV. I expected this because my cousin told me she was shopping for new car. but was a little perturbed given how we are both losing income for the last 4 months due to S2 being sick and Im stretching food, and just making rent. I say nothing. I don't event comment on the new car. I invite her in to write her a check for monies I owed her on Auto Ins. She looks over my place, is glad for me. Admits is a little jealous of new place. Admits she also cannot afford new car payment after taking over house and mortgage. (I say nothing.) Write her the check, and she leaves with S2.

She has a bad habit of always asking me to swap dates a lot with S2 to revolve around her needs and social schedule. Always asking me to sacrifice my personal time. Unless it's warranted, information revealed why, and for legitimate reasons. I typically refuse "Sorry I can't. Have plans." We reschedule Santa photos due to S2 being sick early Dec. She attempts to get me to reschedule to her convenience on my weekend off. I refuse. "Sorry I have plans." (Pretty much her default responses since April.) I actually did have plans that night. I've asked her specifically to give me space and she has for the most part. But somewhere in the back of her mind she's still trying to play happy joint family, and invite me to certain things, exclude me from others, and only invites me for the sake of S2. (So I politely refuse most of them unless important milestones. Haloween, Santa, etc. No friend zone for me thanks.)

She asked me twice prior if I would like to have dinner with her after Santa photos. Asks me again the day of pictures. I politely decline. "Thanks but I already ate."
We reschedule for mid week. Meet them at the mall. I get there early. She walks in behind me, and I don't realize it. I go looking at stuff in AX to kill time. She calls. I don't answer. I walk out of store. Meetup. Waiting for Santa she tries to make small talk with me about how malls aren't crowded anymore around Christmas time. I reply. "Maybe Amazon has something to do with it?" S2 runs into Victoria Secrets. Starts whining because I picked him up. I say to him "I'm sorry I know. We can try Fredricks of Hollywood next time." Lol..XW says "Oh Jeez" I† notice somethings XW will find funny with me, and at other times she is like whatever. Once in a while we'll share a joke or laugh together, but otherwise we don't talk. I've stopped answering all of her calls and take 4-6 hours on non emergency texts when regarding S2.

I've asked my for Christmas belongings, lights, etc. From marital home. She was nice enough to pack them up for me. I notice she keeps trying to give me objects from the relationship like joint themed Christmas sweaters. I politely decline. I get the "No? Ok!" That and once in a while wants to do something joint with S2 every couple of months, otherwise does her own thing with and without him without any information volunteered my way. I reject them too (Except Haloween and pumpkin picking right before I moved out of marital home.) Recently she tried giving me a joint themed Christmas sweater for both of us. Asked me if I wanted it.† Said "Nah...Thanks I have a few new ones of my own I ordered."

Recently she asked me to watch S2 Sun. Jan 19th into Jan 20th overnight, go into work late and drop S2 off at MIL's. She doesn't state why in her email. (But I know why. GF getting married/bachelorette weekend/hotel reservations etc..) I simply reply back "Sorry I can't" Had suspicion going back to February when XW first started getting involved with bridal party is when rings came off and she starting "taking better care" of her feminine hygiene if you catch my drift. Nails, makeup, perfume, different clothing, weight loss surgeries, etc. Coukd be my paranoia from past but the red flags were there.

We agreed in text to start up mediaion again in Jan monies depending.† I initiated that text. I've noticed some things around the martial home that don't mean anything as far as sich changing, that kind of mean nothing, but worth mentioning. In her new office/workout room. (Old MBR) she put up painting I gave to her on our wedding day of two Adiriondack chairs at the beach, and another mural about love that I gave to her on vday a couple of years ago. I also noticed the ornaments on her tree we received are on it gifted from relatives from wedding, and an ornament from 2009 celebrating our marriage from her Mom. (Probably nothing probably just her being practical.)

Im debating on going to her and her Mom's church on Christmas Eve with S2. MIL invited me. My family bailed om me for Christmas Eve after I already decorated, bought the food and everything.. Really disappointed in them. Some reasons are valid, and some are
pi$$ poor pride and excuses. But its teaching me not to remain attached to people or outcomes. MIL left me a present at the marital home. I haven't opened it yet. XW invited me over for Christmas morning brunch, but again I politely declined and told her I have plans. Vets. Should I go to church Christmas Eve with them? Any opinions welcomed.
Posted By: IHCLACS

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 12/23/19 11:40 PM

Im sure everyone here is going to tell me to do what I am comfortable with without attachment or expectations. I know everyone here says "If you are confused by their intentions, then its breadcrumbing, if they want to reconcile YOU WILL KNOW!'
The reason why I always ask the vets here every time a situation like this comes up is because I want good discernment with this without being all removed and hard hearted. It still bewilderes me as to why XW continues to do these things when I have specifically asked her not to since April and have made my point very clear about such. No marriage. No family activity except special occasions. You want separated? Divorce? We do things separate... I just don't understand why someone doesn't get the message even with my silence and refusal. IMO its selfish of her to want to be friends and play family, and have me around to her benefit at times without having to be married to me. But other people like my cousin, she talks to XW too. She thinks it's her way of using S2 to reconnect with me. My cousin speaks with XW too. Its really hard for me to determine if I am being stubborn at times or am I gauging the current situation correctly based on her actions in the other direction away from the M. I've kind if learned my lesson with that 6 times over. Spending time with both of them together changes nothing. If anything it just reinforces her fantasy that I will always be there. But what if I'm wrong and my cousin is right. I just don't want to be vulnerable and keep opening up wounds over and over again, but I'm sure there is someone out there (Like XW and her family that will never see it from my POV.) Am I being stubborn? I figure it this way, nothing came out of it the last several times, so why bother? This isn't like the movies Fireproof. Im perfectly fine in my space. Somewhat enjoy being apart in these conditions, and honestly wouldn't mind taking D off the table, but there's no way in hell Ill move back into the M home without her attempting to carefully think about how much she's hurt me through all of this, and attempt to earn my trust back after laying it all on me seven times over since last year. If she never wakes up, In fine with D too. I won't pursue anymore I refuse to without a complete rock bottom sincere apology on her part after her opinions had to be heard and her feelings validated, but mine dismissed. I've made friends with silence. Its good and introspective for me.
Posted By: LH19

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 12/24/19 01:41 PM

I,

I really think that by the time the process is over the WS is so detached that they donít mind being friends with the LBs especially if it benefits the children.

To me a divorce is an action and I have yet to see anyone change there mind in the little time youíve been on your own. Tread lightly my friend.
Posted By: IHCLACS

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 12/24/19 03:48 PM

Will do. LH19. I intend to. I really need to read your sich over in the Surviving The Big D. Board.

This area with doing joint shared things and these types of invites all through my sich have been extremely confusing to me because of different mindsets... I have swung from one polar opposite to another. Rejecting and politely declining her at one turn, only to accept on choice occasion. Been fairly consistent in maintaining my position on it. But the reason for the confusion on my part is seven fold. Its because our mindsets are completely different when it comes to Ex's. Because of our families and experiences. XW and her family insisted on inviting my brothers XW to our wedding in 2009 so my nieces (who were small and bratty at the time) could be handled by their Mom. No matter how much I insisted to XW and her family that brother's XW and my brother had a lot of extreme animosity towards each other and families as a result of a nasty divorce as well. My STBXW and her family insisted on inviting brothers XW under the premise of "Can't they just get along for the sake of the children?" Although good intentions. But lack of respect for myself, my brother, mine and my family's wishes.

It became a comtention point between us then and our wedding where I was considering calling the wedding off because I was getting pulled in both directions by both families to do the right thing. But I knew that my father being the instigator that he was, and Ex SIL being the crazy person that she was, fireworks and drama would have definitely happened and I wasn't about to deal with that kind of stress, embarrassment, drama, or situation at my wedding. I still had to stay om my toes with my Father with anxiety that day with him instigating remarks to my oldest brother's wife who is the Sister of my other brothers ex.

So I guess it doesn't surprise me now that I think about it that my STBXW operates from this mindset. That everyone can still get along, attend family functions, introduce new people in dating in the future, and everyone should just be ok with it. "For the kids sake." My STBXW has a bad habit of befriending my brothers Ex's and spending PT with them.. Not that any of us have a problem with it, but it just goes to show how little consideration, respect and POV is given to the other side's wishes and good reasons for giving them. I understand it and where they are coming from. But STBXW always held resentment towards me for not having ExSIL invited to wedding, and as me holding power over her in that sich. She resented me in a sense because she had to "babysit" my unruly nieces the flower girls on "her wedding day." Because their Mom wasn't invited. But She made sure to invite EXSIL. To wedding after party. Which I didn't have a problem with and compromised on. She could have just as easily removed my nieces from the wedding however and that would have been fine by me. Since STBXW invited them as flower girls in the first place. Ironicly I am going to nieces house Christmas day without S2 to attend a party. She has a S1 right behind my S2. My Ex SIL and Brother will be there. My EXSIL is dying of Cancer. My brother and her sonewhat made amends for the sake of the grandkids for the first time in 20 years. So that is a miracle unto itself.

But anyway its not my principles or mindset and doesn't fit into my reality given how I came up in my family. An ex is an ex for a reason. You don't have to hate them. Forgive them yes. Understand they are human and they hurt too. Be polite friendly and cordial. Work together as co parents for the kids.

But the other reasons why this area is so confusing to me is several. Everyone here advocates NC, time and space and LRT for one, and I totally understand why. It diffuses, it heals, it develops self autonomy, removes co dependency, and gives room to think about self reflection and previous actions. I've had a bit of time this past month and year to reflect on all the unhealthy things we both brought to the M. Another reason why these situations confuse me so much is I have been specific, vocal and candid, and fairly consistent in my boundaries and rules with this. But I keep getting invited as if "I will see it they're way one day for the benefit of S2."† Another reason why it is confusing is my cousin who talks to STBXW has hope for us, and puts it in my head a lot that maybe STBXW is trying to reach out to me in a sense, and I am rejecting her, even still being aware of the actions taken against me the whole step of the way over the last year. Cousin also reminds me that STBXW is going through a lot with MIL getting over Cancer for the second time this last year, and FIL having progressive dementia. My STBXW reasons for leaving the M are seven fold. Mild MLC. Purpose in life, fear of dying, authenticity, childhood trauma, self worth issues, value, wanting to experience a new life with desires purpose in self, hobbies, travels, and relationships. I understand that and it is in a way selfish of me to hold on, so I let go. I can,be compassionate at times in that sense, and realize I have to allow a person to be who they are and want to be. Who an I how to tell a person how to live, how to feel, what to believe, and what is right for them? We both have a lot of work to do on ourselves and she is 10 steps ahead of me. If I had an ideal choice in my situation. I would continue to live apart.
Us work on ourselves, settle the property stuff and sale, but take divorce off the table. (I know its only a piece of paper and contract.)

When I get spiritual, biblical or talk to cousin, it gives me hope. But STBXW's actions prove me otherwise. So I distance myself. Its difficult for me to trust myself in this area with discernment because the vets know one thing from experience, I get validated in that from what I experience as a result of such by STBXW's actions. Cousin thinks Im making a mistake in distancing my self NC but won't tell me why. (Maybe she knows more to the circumstance because she talks to STBXW?) I clearly know one event can't turn everything around and that it takes time, years, and patience and we are going to mediation next month, and nothing is legally binding unless we officially divorce. Again either way Reconciled or Divorce. I will be fine, it might even be a blessing. I get to start life over anew and reinvent myself and my habits and transform. I can be good willed. I just don't want to be hard nosed and prideful about NC because what if cousin is right? I don't see how though. I haven't seen any words or actions moving back torwards R with explicit intent, just ambiguities and ambivalence. I don't want to "read the tea leaves" by the Christmas stuff and murals on the walls in the marital home as a sign of anything. I guess STBXW is just being her nice inviting self. Funny how they do that when you are acused of being emotionally and verbally abusive, that you are scary, and they don't trust you and aren't romantically attracted to you anymore. I can remain unattached. I just could use some reassurance that silence, distance and space is the right thing to do given what I've seen lately. (Im only two months physically, but one year verbally and emotionally separated so it must be.)
Posted By: LH19

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 12/24/19 04:21 PM

I,

Iím gonna give it to you straight. Move on. Your cousin is just trying to make you feel better. I was told by my friends wife that on the girls vacation this year all four girls said to my ex that her and I were going to get back together. She didnít refute it. All it did was get me stuck. Bare minimum two years to turn around. Donít make the mistake I did and move on. If the decision ever comes that you will have a choice to make.
Posted By: Mario

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 12/24/19 05:02 PM


I think with the piece of paper - the D. It's easier to have a real talk with her about how you won't be doing things as a family because you aren't a family. Your family is now you and your S.

You say that she doesn't get the message. Maybe you aren't communicating the message as much as you think.

Personally, I'd stop with "I have plans," I'd just say "we talked about this." I think you need to stop saying that the only reason you aren't doing things as a family is because other things get in the way.

The D also gives the freedom to have a frank talk with the XW. I think people come here and they get the avoid R talks message beaten into their brains and they see every talk that's not small talk as an R talk.
Posted By: IHCLACS

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 12/24/19 05:13 PM

LH19 Bare minimum of two years if not at all.. Yeah I figured that if that. Move on. Absolutely. No point in slamming my d!ck in the door for a 6th or 7th time. Thanks for the reassurance and appealing to my logical side ;-) Its much better to live life on my own terms, not having to appeal to or pine for anyone. Much more mentally relieving to cross "that bridge when I get to it if I ever get to it." People make choices and take actions in life. Some have positive consequences, some negative. I can live with that. I always flew by the seat of my pants in life anyway for the most part. But now I have some serious planning of what my life will look like this next year and the next 30.
Posted By: IHCLACS

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 12/24/19 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by Mario

I think with the piece of paper - the D. It's easier to have a real talk with her about how you won't be doing things as a family because you aren't a family. Your family is now you and your S.

You say that she doesn't get the message. Maybe you aren't communicating the message as much as you think.

Personally, I'd stop with "I have plans," I'd just say "we talked about this." I think you need to stop saying that the only reason you aren't doing things as a family is because other things get in the way.

The D also gives the freedom to have a frank talk with the XW. I think people come here and they get the avoid R talks message beaten into their brains and they see every talk that's not small talk as an R talk.


Mario. I've verbally and literally set my boundaries with this several times over since March.
Here is a message excerpt from Oct to XW. She still takes it as "giving me my space" but still insists inviting me to family events after I've made my self clear on the mattof aer.

XW: Still not sure... would you consider coming up with him tomorrow for the day if he stays home tonight.
IH: Sorry. I don't play family unless I actually belong to one.
XW: You can take him tonight, or leave him with me for the weekend. Please let me know so I can make /cancel plans.

Another occasion
XW:We dont have to swap, you can still have friday. We will both see him tomorrow for santa pics. Id just ask that you video call tonight so jack can see you.
IH: I don't feel that's necessary. Unless he is looking for me I will see him tomorrow and Weds.
XW:Ok, i just thought you might wanna say hi
XW: We will see you tomorrow.
IH: I need space. Not from him. Do you understand?
XW: Yes.

Funny I deleted all text messages of XW from year prior back in Sept. Im reading over the texts in exchange beteeen us over stuff. S2 health. schedules and timetables and inconveniences and what not as far as respecting boundaries in time and space and schedules. Even though all my points are completely valid in my text messages I realize how much of a Maniac I sound like always trying to make my point. Guess that's why I went silent.
Posted By: IHCLACS

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 12/24/19 05:57 PM

Edit. This response was me. "IH: You can take him tonight, or leave him with me for the weekend. Please let me know so I can make /cancel plans."
Posted By: IHCLACS

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 12/30/19 03:31 AM

Alright need a little advice again in handling situation properly. 2x4 me if anyone thinks I'm mind reading. Ill try and keep it short.

My experience and observation on patterns of behavior with XW over a span of 9 months is when she wants to swap custody dates. This has been CONSTANT, this and frequently trying to get me involved in joint affairs with S2 and XW's family.† The swap requests typically are† on my days off to benefit her "social affairs." Unless I am provided with a valid reason for doing such from her. I have made it clear time and time and time again with the date swaps and shared family occasions I keep getting invited to, that if there is a swap it has to be 48hrs notice at minimum. I know its none of my business what XW is doing during her "social affairs." Or time off from S2. That's fine. I don't ask. But if she doesn't reveal reasons for swap, then I don't accept the request. (Please keep in mind this is not about control for me over her. This is about secrecy, and the potential of being manipulated.)

I'm willing to bend when she volunteers a valid reason to swap, but at every request to swap with no reason I ignore, or reply "Sorry but I can't" with no reason given in return. Even if there are equal exchanges at times for swaps, which there are... We both have been fair and willingly reciprocative with that. Like if I do her a favor and watch him for an occasion, she will give me a date of my choosing off.

But the real reason for me doing this especially even more frequently as of lately is because I feel I am being manipulated into watching S2 at helm and desire of her social schedule. I should be grateful to spend more time with S2 AND I WANT TO. I really miss him at times.† But I don't want to contribute to XW's plans to socialize, go on dates (not confirmed just speculation.) and other social occasions where she wants me to "be the built in babysitter for."

Here is where I am getting my mindset and reasoning from based from experiences. XW always texts and asks and presses my ETA for S2 pickups on some days/nights but not others. She has frequent weeknight appointments, therapy, support groups. That I already know about that she has barely revealed to me. Ok fine. I get that. That holds legitimacy for ETA pressing and possible custody swaps at times. Where I am having a problem is her asking me to do swaps or exchanges when it benefits her socially on my scheduled time off especially when the agenda is hidden in secrecy. I refuse to contribute to that.

Examples

10/28 6:24am
XW:I know I mentioned this last week, but I have a scheduling issue this Sunday, 11/3. Are you able to take S2 for the day? I would need from 9-3. Please let me know by this evening, so I can make arrangements if need be.

IH: Sorry, I can't. Brother and I will be moving half day Saturday and all of Sunday. This was my moving weekend and I'm pretty sure you were aware of that. Let me think about it, and I'll get back to you if something is workable.

XW: Originally it was my weekend off, and you asked to switch because of the move. My plans were made months ago. If you are able to take S2 during the day Sunday , id be willing to give you Friday night off. Ill look into other arrangements, but if anything chages, let me know.

IH: Right. You had a mention/discussion about a week or two ago about Nov. 3rd but no mention of time frame. 9am-3pm is the first I am hearing of it. I have fulfilled my two straight weekends of watching S2 on Oct 12th, 13th, 18th and 19th as part of the swap arrangement for Oct 26, 27th, Nov 2nd and 3rd.

My plans have changed as far as Brother's availability to help me move. So its a matter of necessity/convenience and not luxury. Even if I was to swap this Friday for Sunday, it still doesn't change my plans that Brother is available half day Saturday and full day Sunday to help move. I will get back to you tonight if there is something workable with Brother Otherwise I will be waiting possibly 2-3 weeks to move my stuff out of the garage.

XW: You dont nwed to change your plans. I just wanted to see if you were able to.watch S2 Sunday. Ill make arrangements for him on Sunday

12/13 e-mail 8:43am Overnight Request:

XW: I wanted to ask if you would be able to take S2 overnight on Sunday, January 19th. I realize it's technically a weeknight,† but the following day is MLK day so S2 will be off from daycare. If need be, I could arrange for my mom to watch him the next day if you dropped him off at her place in the morning on your way to work. It would require that you go in to work a little later, but you wouldn't have to miss the day.† I wanted to ask you first before anyone else. Let me know if you're able and willing. -XW.††

IH: Sorry I can't.

(Here she presumes I'm willing to miss hours at work which I desperately need. Then phrases the end of the paragraph
"I wanted to ask you before anyone else." In other words she's giving me right of first refusal and courtesy using S2 and my parental guardianship as a ploy.) Now although she doesn't mention it and possibly doesn't know that I know this. 01/19 the real reason she is asking me is because her GF is getting married on the 20th and XW is in the bridal party. Hotel for 20th and 21st So 01/18 - 01/19 is most likely the bachelorette party. I saw those well laid plans over 6 months ago from her own handwriting, and I wasn't shocked but wasn't impressed. So I know what that agenda entails.

I think I have only asked for two swaps the entire year revolving around my personal life. One was for Sat. OT back in July (Business related.) The other was for my birthday past. Otherwise all my social affairs revolve around my own time off and I plan them accordingly. She has CONSTANTLY BARRAGED ME with swap requests with no reasons given most of the time revolving around my time off.

These are just my beliefs based off of my consistent observations with her. Its like in a way she is saying† "Don't you want to spend more time with S2.?" as the emotional bait to get the social conveniences to her advantage. She has done this repeatedly ALL YEAR LONG! I believe to pull at my heart strings to spend more time with S2 on my time off and use it to her convenience. So what I believe is. If I also refuse without good cause it can be potentially used against me either in her own mind, or potentially in court, if it ever goes that far.

So this is the way Xmas went with me. Family bailed on me for Xmas Eve. Just me and S2.

MIL invited me to either 4pm or 12am church since she's playing the organ on Xmas Eve. I find out from MIL that XW is going at 4pm and BIL will go at 12pm (Due to FIL having dementia.)

I give XW ETA of S2 pick up of 2pm 12/24. I ask XW in text:

IH: Q.Q. would you like S2 to experience the nativity scene at church today with you and your mom with the rest of the kids?

No reply. I ask about this in person. XW says she's not attending 4pm church due to FIL having a bad day and is going over there to watch him. I reply to MIL:
IH: Sorry to hear FIL is having a rough time today. I do hope the both of you find comfort in the Lord you have an amazing performance at church today. Thank you for the gift I haven't opened it yet.

Literally minutes after I leave XW house with S2. MIL replies:
MIL: Thanks IH....FIL is better now....this stuff comes and goes..but things r moving towards the VA home meeting on jan 9. Feel free to come by later if u want..it will be BIL, XW, FIL and i for hordeurves after church..nothing fancy. Hope like your gift...I know can use it....🎄

IH: I just picked up S2. XW told me she was coming over to watch FIL while you go to play the organ for for service.

IH: I was actually hoping to attend service with S2 but since he hasn't napped yet we might miss the 4 p.m. service.

MIL: Well if u decided to come...u could be up in the balcony where I am..S2 could see everything...then leave when u need to...the animals are adorable.

IH: I actually have a friend stopping over at 5pm.

MIL: Whatever u decide...merry cmas...just know.....holidays u are ALWAYS included here...the decision is always yours. XW feels the same.

12/24 This comes in from XW at 3pm.
XW: If youre up for it, you should come by my parents later for apps around 5.
Its just my parents me and BIL.

IH: I would really like that but I have company at 5pm.

XW: Ok, no worries.

I had a friend stop over Christmas Eve on his way up to his sister's house. He is also my bandmate. Despite being letdown by immediate family. After I went through all the trouble of cleaning, decorating, buying all of food preparing all the meals, etc. My family bailed on me at the last minute for the sake of "maintaining tradition" at my mothers cat filth infested hoarder house, and since I don't feel safe there with S2 I wasn't about to bring him over there and I was very clear about that. The whole purpose of doing Christmas Eve traditions at my home was so that we could all be together including S2 without having all of the hazards or grief. There was also very poor communication on both my brothers part despite me having the agenda convo with one of them one week prior. So it was myself S2 and friend Xmas Eve. It was good. I was grateful, and it taught me an important lesson about expectations, disappointment, and who really wants to be in your life and who is worth your time.

12/25
XW: Would you be willing to pick up half and half when you bring S2?

IH: Sorry I don't have a lot of time today.
XW: Ok

Here I compromised and brought XW my some heavy cream for her shindig at her house with her family. She actually bought me a bottle of bourbon since she knew I wanted to make eggnog. Gave me a very thoughtful gift from herself, and a present from S2. I gave her a Lavendar bath set since I know she loves Lavendar from S2. I was on my way down to nieces Xmas party with Mom.

IH: Thank you again for the Bourbon.
XW: YW!

12/26 XW took BIL out for 30th birthday and planned on being home late. At request I watch S2 overnight and drop him off 5:45 am on 12/27. Had to get him up at 4am He was good eating breakfast, until I got in the shower with him. Threw a 40 minutes tantrum. Ususally he's good about showering together. But he has been extremely fussy and temperamental the last couple of months. Emotions are all over the place. Welcome to terrible twos. The first 1.5 years he was so chill.

XW: Did you want the night off? Im home tonight and can watch S2 as an exchange for last night. (Out with BIL. and company for 30th.)

I go to XW house anyway Fri to pick up S2. He's sleeping so I leave him there. My weekend off Sat and Sun.

12/27 email.
XW: I realize that next Tuesday ( new years eve) is my night with S2, so I planned to stay home for the night. Would you be interested in having any time with him during the day?

I don't respond.

12/29 text
XW: Did you see my email about New Years?

I don't respond.

12/29 Missed Call and VM. (I let it go to VM.)
XW: (Driving. Very matter of fact tone. Pauses not to reveal too much in between sentences not to reveal too much.)
"Hey its me.. Um..I texted you and also emailed you... But Um...I'm trying to work out the schedule for NYE. So Uh...if you can call me back when you get a chance? Um... I'm going to be out for a little bit this evening.. But...Um...You can call me either tonight or tomorrow... Alright bye."

Now my mind is wondering? If she's going to be out on Sat evening on her weekend with S2 Who's watching S2? BIL? Also from my previous observations when I was living in M home. XW was VERY UNLIKELY TO LEAVE HOUSE WITH S2 unless for day errands. Never went out at night on weekends with S2. Even during IHS. Sounds like shes amping up her social life to the max for 2020.

I don't respond.

XW calls again tonight. I don't answer. So 1 email 1 text message 1 VM and 2 phone calls in a 48 hr. Period All over. A half a day on NYE which is her day anyway to watch S2 and my night off. Whatever her social arrangements are. MUST BE REALLY IMPORTANT and last minute since she didn't mention the topic Fri when I went to pick up S2. Again if you re-read the email she sent regarding this. She plays it off as "Would you be interested in having any time with him during the day?"† For her to call me twice, leave me a VM, text message, and email over the matter. It must be to suit her social agenda, and she's eager to get back to somebody with confirmation. She wouldn't go through all that trouble if she didn't.

MIL even sent me a "Whoops that last message was meant for XW." Shortly after XW called me earlier and I didn't answer.

MIL: I tried so hard not to open the box of candy...till tonight!😳
Woops..candy message was .....for XW...looks like I'm getting everything mixed up lately. Hope u r doing ok.....

(Wonder if MIL sent it out intentionally as a test response because I didn't answer any of XW's correspondence?)

Ill probably respond back tomorrow. "Thanks but I have to work NYE during the day." Which is true.

Now I know I know. Her business is her business and mine is mine. That's fine. But that doesn't mean I have to placate to it or encourage it when I see more Red Flags than a Chinese Parade. My guess? Started talking to someone at BIL's event. Wants to make day plans. Don't know who with. I could be paranoid, I could be wrong? Who knows. But the thing is. Since April. She only tells me about family events and whereabouts voluntarily. Anything else related to her, her friends, her appointments, her rendezvous, etc. Complete secrecy whether significant or insignificant.

Ok time for everyone to club me over the head with 4x4's. Whether Im right or wrong in presuming things or mind reading without facts. Im not even going to go there. Again her business is her business. But that doesn't mean I can't observe her behavior just to make sure I am not being manipulated. Whether I'm wrong or right in my presumptions. Im not willing to do any more swaps or entertain any more date swaps without just cause. But on the same hand I don't want to be intrusive and ask the why every time as it is none of my business. But I do expect some sort of explanation or legitimacy for it. If I don't get one, I don't honor the request. I'm even to a point now where I'm not even going to respond to them unless XW gives just cause for it. Im certainly not going to entertain custody date swapping if she wants to go out on dates in the future whether in the open or in secret. I've lost enough over this. My M, my family, my home, and my sense of self worth which I am starting to gain traction with in my solitude. Realizing give as only as good as you get, and train people to treat you the way you want to be treated. Time is of the essence. Have healthy boundaries, self respect. Drive and purpose.† Now. Since I've repeatedly asked for certain boundaries, rules and conditions about "playing family" when we are no longer a family. Over and over and over. And I still repeatedly get invited to stuff. It a hard for me to tell if her and her family want me there "as the child's father" out of guilt? Out of sincerity? Maybe a little bit of both? Or if XW is reaching out. (I highly doubt it because I'm only invited when it involves S2 or joint stuff.) Or if she's using S2 as a dangling carrot. Again in they're minds? "Why can't we all just be friends and get along." In my mind: "I've never had a friend take my home, my family, my mortgage, pretty much my life and do it in secrecy, only to be transparent later when actions were required to proceed forward in getting their way." Who needs friends like that?

I have confronted XW about these things so many times that I just want to ghost her and not respond every time this comes up just to see if she gets the message. Its either that. Or I am going to have to have a hard talk again (which probably won't be respected and forgotten.) But will have to do so in a way where I am assertive that she makes her plans on her own time. Not mine, and not to just expect me to swap dates ever again without just cause or explanation. (Again I know its none of my business.) But I want to know if it is worth what I am sacrificing my time and plans for when I don't have S2 and she wants to swap to suit her social needs, whether it's appointments, GF'S, dating. Whatever. I don't like secrecy. Never have never will. Give me full transparency blunt force trauma. Even if it means she is dating. I'm a big boy I can take it. Im tired of this secrecy "I have plans.. Im busy...I have an appointment† Sorry I can't." cat and mouse game B.S.† I hate games. I don't like having them played on me and I don't like playing them. This is what she does. She makes all these plans with whomever people first. Sometimes months in advance. Then expects me to swap the week of with no explanation most of the time. Not doing it sorry. Now I know some of you here will probably say something to the effect of "Well what XW reveals to you has a lot to do with levels of trust right now. So don't expect XW to tell you anything." So as long as she responds this way then so will I. But I could use advise on how to confront her with balance and respect while still remaining assertive but not overbearing.† Sometimes I'm not sure of myself if Im being too hard.

Im just tired of playing these incognito mystery distance games. I feel like we are both manipulating each other to a degree. But what am I to do? I'm not even sure if I'm overbearing and defensive and pushing people away by thinking and acting this way. But I kind of have to be.† In a polite and excusable way, because in the past. I've been known to make too many points and be very confronting and making a big deal about my feelings, what bothers me, and how I want and need things, in making my point in the past just to never have it honored or respected, so why not try a different more distant subtle approach? I figured silence would speak volumes. And since nothing has changed torwards R in the last year. I'm actually enjoying going silent on everyone that has disappointed me. XW† Family included. I need to be valued more for my sacrifices, efforts, hard work and consideration. I feel very undervalued and underappreciated by these people. I know its a little manipulative of me. But I'm not doing it for a desired outcome. Im doing it because I actually need space from these people, and would rather give my time to other people that really want to spend time with me.

Somebody smash me over the head, because it's hard for me to discern and trust myself for thinking this way.
Posted By: IronWill

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 12/30/19 03:59 AM

Hey IHC -

Full disclosure, I don't have kids. But I am really missing time I used to spend visiting my nephews. I used to see them every week. Now its once every two or 3 months and limited to bday parties/get togethers.

Keep in mind, I have voluntarily backed off bc W spends all her free time with nephews now. But that is her family and she needs them.

If i were you and there were any opportunities to spend extra time with my son, I would take them. Your son will not be young for long. Take any extra time with him because time goes so fast.

My 2 cents.
Posted By: IHCLACS

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 12/30/19 04:28 AM

Ill try and reframe my mind that way, and plan more activities with S2. But I still have to balance and bear in mind that that can be abused. But you are right IW I need to make this less about XW and I and more about S2 and I. Im on LRT going dark. With mediation potentially happening in Jan. No date set yet. Logic, reality and experience tells me I have no hope in R. My faith tells me otherwise. So yeah I am at a conflict with myself daily for months on end over it. I won't push this car or M over the cliff willingly. Ill bring it up to the edge with tactics that really don't benefit me but in a way they do with my healing and distance. She's going to have to give it that last push and see it all the way through with what she started. Once mediation is final, decree is stamped and approved and XW house is sold and I get my cut.. Then I will have my closure. It ain't over till its over. I sure as hell ain't going to fight for the M but I'm not going push it off the cliff either. Its just best I back off. Focus on me and stay away until that day comes. When it does come Ill do what best for everyone and what everybody needs. (Notice I said needs not wants.) When that day comes to fruition. Then I will see what is down the road apiece.
Posted By: ovrrnbw

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 12/30/19 05:40 AM

When you demand a valid reason for her to swap the kids on her days, I can't help but think she is thinking WTF. Her business isn't your business! You aren't her dad! You either can or can't, keep it simple. She has to prove legitimacy to you? You know how this sounds?

And a 48 hour notice? I don't get that either. There might be a time when you want her to babysit for your social affairs, why not make the best of it?

Her inviting you to her family stuff is bad? Sounds like she is trying to be amicable, her folks are still your kids grandparents. If you don't want to go just say that but imagine you may portray a certain attitude to her when she asks this.

Your responses to her are super wordy and confusing. You're upset that she gave you the "first right of refusal" as you put it...why? You're just snooping her personal life bc you want to know if she's dating. You're full of pain and it is surfacing in the form of your anger and insecurities. You have to make a change there.

I'd attend her family's events occasionally too just to show them how big your balls are. Take the challenge, pass the test.
Posted By: DS9

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 12/30/19 10:45 AM

Hey ih good to hear from you. Howís the new pad? All settled in?

Iím sorry family bailed on you for Xmas mate.

Can I echo overrnbw in saying donít worry about reasons being given or not for scheduling change requests, and if you do fish for them sheíll see that as controlling. Just either say yes or no. If yes a simple Ďhi XW, no worries, please collect S by 10amí. If no, then no need for sorries just say something like Ďhi XW I canít I have plansí. No need for explanation or anything that she can come back with and challenge you.

Always reply to parenting issues (R2Cís counsel), just wait a while, keep it extremely short and always be cordial and polite. If she writes war and peace to you, you reply with spot the dog.

Cheers ds
Posted By: Ginger1

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 12/30/19 10:55 AM

Here comes your club over the head.

Iím one breath you say her social life is none of your business. In the next, you say you do t want to fuel her social life and she should give you a reason for her swap so you can decide if you are fueling her social life.

It doesnít work that way.

Either you say ďsorry, I canít make that switchĒ or you say ďsure, no problemĒ

Your decision in making the switch should have absolutely nothing to do with her potential plans, only yours. If it doesnít work for YOU, then say no. If it does work for you, say YES. Your decision to swap should have nothing to do what she is doing with that tome.

One day, youíll maybe want to go on a date and you might need a swap. Is she entitled to the why? No, she wonít be either. She will either say yes or no, depending on if it works for her
Posted By: IHCLACS

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 12/31/19 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
When you demand a valid reason for her to swap the kids on her days, I can't help but think she is thinking WTF. Her business isn't your business! You aren't her dad! You either can or can't,† keep it simple. She has to prove legitimacy to you? You know how this sounds?

And a 48 hour notice? I don't get that either. There might be a time when you want her to babysit for your social affairs, why not make the best of it?

Her inviting you to her family stuff is bad? Sounds like she is trying to be amicable, her folks are still your kids grandparents. If you don't want to go just say that but imagine you may portray a certain attitude to her when she asks this.

Your responses to her are super wordy and confusing. You're upset that she gave you the "first right of refusal" as you put it...why? You're just snooping her personal life bc you want to know if she's dating. You're full of pain and it is surfacing in the form of your anger and insecurities. You have to† make a change there.

I'd attend her family's events occasionally too just to show them how big your balls are. Take the challenge, pass the test.


Ovrrnbw: Who said anything about a demand? I haven't demanded or asked anything from anyone or about anyone or their plans, and have kept all correspondence "Yes I can. Sorry I can't." Been responding that way since April. I like to K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple Stupid.) in all correspondence now with XW and avoid long wordy responses and explanations. Especially as of lately. It is my resolve.† Been more consistent with that lately. Your right Ovrrnvw. I'm not her Dad. I'm not her Husband either... Lol.. Her business isn't my business. I believe I clearly stated that in my previous post.

The 48 hr. notice boundary thing I put into place months ago as a result of XW always asking me for favors or time/child swaps for same day/last minute notice. AGAIN TO HER CONVENIENCE when I had already made plans ON MY TIME off. Which she obviously isn't/wasn't aware of because we stopped communicating during IHS and went to written form. The purpose of this boundary is for both individuals to have respect of their time, schedule, and proper planning. Also to prevent any confusion of conversations that may or may not have taken place in someone's mind, due to both parties barely talking.† (Again it was being slightly abused and expected of me to drop all plans at a moments notice.)

Ovrrnbw. I also never said that being invited to family occasions was bad thing. You did.. Its actually a good thing. Its just a good thing Im not ready for in its entirety yet. In small doses and limited frequency. I had well known intentions of going to church with all of them Xmas Eve, but the circumstances changed quickly with FIL and his dementia bouts and moods. As a result, I made my own plans with a friend and S2, So when I was asked again, I actually was busy and had plans. (Please re-read my post.) But again its a minor annoyance to me at times, and the frequency of the invites. (I don't show it externally. I'm always friendly, happy, and cheerful during our short interactions when picking up S2. What I disclose here is not what I portrait in reality. But internally it annoys me sometimes.) Why? Because I've held onto the whole "We are not together as a family." Mantra which is so advocated here on DB forum since I arrived here. Some advocate it, some don't. Who's right? What works? It all depends on the individual and what they are comfortable with at that time. I do accept invites to some occasions. (Santa photos. Birthday's, Pumpkin Picking, Halloween, etc.) I'm honestly not snooping. IDGAF! About XW social affairs, what she is doing, who she is seeing, and where she is. I DONT WANT TO KNOW! I just don't want my time, or my good will to swap at a moments notice being abused and S2 being used as the catalyst for it. But as I said to IW I need to make it more about myself and S2 than myself and XW mentally.. And as either you or Ginger mentioned. That works both ways and may actually benefit me in the future. I need to be more mindful of that. I like planned routine, structure, and prefer for it to be adhered to. Its what's right for me. Life happens, plans change, not everything is static, there has to be some give and take and I get that. But for now. Let XW make plans on her own time off like I do. I just dont want to be taken advantaged of as the built in babysitter. Ill give and take here and there on occaision. (Again re-read my post. Or not.) Am I wrong for thinking this way? Who knows? As far as anger and insecurities. Ill agree with you mildly there. I wouldn't be writing all this stuff, looking or posting on here if I truly didn't GAF and was fully detached! But again. I don't display it externally. During all interactions I'm nice as pie, friendly, upbeat and cordial. But internally it crops up every now and again.

As far as how "big my balls are." about family occasions. Read again what I stated above. I attend some functions and not others based on my availability, and just whether I emotionally feel like it. Again. My feelings and my narrative isn't someone else's, and it is what is, and that's that. As far as "passing tests" I don't jump through flaming hoops for anyone unless it benefits myself and S2 first, and then those around me. Please don't misconstrue what I am saying here as selfish, inconsiderate or defensive either. Since everyone here advocates NMMG, and all the Alpha B.S. Going dark. LRT, being short worded, scarce, GAL, staying busy and productive, focusing on individual purpose, etc. Certain behaviors, etc. I put myself first unless I want to help, or co mingle in a non co dependant way. Is it manipulation tactics in a way? Well? That's complicated. There is a difference between actually fully moving on with your life, actually being occupied, and just acting like it. And something in between. I'm at something in between right now. When an invitation comes up it just depends on how I feel, and whether Im actually busy or not. Also comes down to mindset. XW and in-laws think we are still a family. I think we are not. I don't see it that way right now. Could I be more receiving and open to it? Change my mindset on it. Sure. But Im not fully ready. When Im ready. I'm ready. Sometimes I will accept for the sake of S2 or just whether I feel like it.†

Im not the kind of person that goes along to get along emotionally, or make conversation to fill voids of silence. I am a profound conversationalist. But I also wear my heart, my emotions, and intentions on my sleeve, and it shows. If im not in a good overall place. It shows. If I am in a good place. It really shows. That can change by the hour, day, or week. I can regulate my emotions fairly ok, but need to really improve on it and my thoughts. Ill never change that about myself and don't want to. I always believe vulnerability is an asset not a liability. Who you choose to show it to, when why, where and how, is another story. I'm not the kind of person that has a filter and is vocal. Tactfulness possibly given the situation, but I don't filter and Im working on that.†Im a loud mouth shoot from the hip no b.s. kind of guy. I can be very empathetic and compassionate AS LONG AS I DONT LET MY OWN EMOTIONS GET THE BEST OF ME in a situation.

But. There is no point to me attending all joint family functions until I heal completely. No point of making shallow awkward conversation. Talking about the weather, the mall, or other ice breaker topics with people I was once intimate with in conversations.† Awkward silences on my part or theirs. No thanks. Again I've done post BD gatherings with them. Sometimes its great. Others its awkward for me. Just depends on my mood. No point of me attending if I am going to remain talkative with MIL and quiet with BIL. and XW. They can't rush it. I can't rush it. I've made my point clear to them with that. Im not going to sit around my XW and her family and pretend like nothing is wrong, acting all friendly like nothing happened. I lost my house, my W, my family, my authority and respect as a H, my BIL moved in, W took over the house and mortgage, and exited the M. I have compassion for all of their circumstances. I really do. FIL Dementia, BIL recently D. MIL 2nd bout with Cancer. XW. MLC and transition.† But I'm only willing to put the olive branch out so far at times until I fully heal. Im not willing to be vulnerable to anyone if they aren't willing to be vulnerable with me. Could these invitations possibly spark that? I guess Ill never know. XW hasn't changed course or interactions, so why should I? There's a limit with how much Im willing to be vulnerabke. There is no right or wrong about the way I feel. It just is. You see their removed behaviors and actions have caused me to remove myself even further to the point of going completely dark with them. Except MIL. They don't get to take all these actions even though I know their intentions were for different reasons, some having absolutely nothing to do with me, is nothing personal, and are not trying to intentionally hurt me. But they don't get to do all these things, and then for right now, expect me to be all happy happy joy joy and play family when it suits them.

If I wanted to K.I.S.S. and be less wordy in my last post I could have simply asked the board here.
"How do I confront XW without being confrontive, or being belligerent about always asking me to swap on my time off" Address my concerns of being taken advantage of. Fear of manipulation without making a big deal or fuss over it. Have them understand it, respect it, and more importantly FOLLOW IT!

Some of you might argue I need a attitude adjustment. Well that waxes and wanes with fluctuating thoughts and circumstances. I'd rather be married than be right. But... If Im not going to be married I might as well be right. On my own terms. My two time platonic friend date said something interesting to me last month that really stuck with me in conversation. Something along the lines of "Its important to observe the thoughts that we have, but its more important of the meaning to ourselves that we give it."

There were two other significant things I was going to put in here yesterday while I was writing this but I forgot. My thoughts for today are with 2020 approaching tomorrow is. This place is my emotional addiction amongst other things. I'm starting to wonder that the people like myself and others who frequent here are people who are emotionally stuck. I can't figure out at this time for the life of me why some days or weeks I'm perfectly okay with divorcing and moving on with my life. How sometimes I look at things that weren't good for me in that relationship and I'm okay. I'm detached for a time. When I have my short interactions with XW while picking up S2 I'm okay with the way things are and the way they're going. It's kind of like I don't miss the negative attributes that don't suit me in her and the R, but sometimes I think about the positive attributes that brought laughter joy and smiles understanding sometime in the past.

Maybe I need to really put this place, all relationships, my phone, my sich, You Tube, self introspection, my XW, my family, and other distractions in my life down for a while. Sit down, write out a list of what I want my life to look like in all areas of it for the next year or two, and progressively work torwards it. GAL, Finance, Career, Social, Personal Development. Spiritual, Habits, etc. I've been grateful for all good small moments this last year. But for the most part have been quite isolated. Its serving me to think and to self introspection and heal. But it isn't taking my life in the right direction. I want to be alone for right now, but not for long, and not forever. I want to see a new person come out of this. One that I don't even recognize, but still keeps his principles. I know what I want. I just need to write it out and stick to it. My habits and thoughts and the meaning I assign to it really need to change.
Posted By: Ginger1

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 12/31/19 01:04 PM

You are only being taken advantage of if you let yourself. I imagine that enough ďno, I canítĒ when she asks for a switch, will lead to her not asking anymore. You canít make her stop asking. But you can say no. And if you say no, you arenít being taken advantage of, right? Because itís your decision. And if you want an explanation as to what she Is doing since you are making your decision based upon that whether or not, she also has the choice to not tell you with the consequence of you saying no to her request.

Boundaries took me a while to learn. You canít make someone act a certain way. But you can decide what you are going to engage in. And if you chose to say no, that enforcing your boundaries If this is indeed a boundary.

And when you are divorced, first right of refusal is written into your agreement. The parent always gets the first choice, and if the answer is a no, then the custodial
Parent seeks an alternative .

In summary. You donít get to decide what others do or say or offer to tell you. But you do get the right to say no.
Posted By: IHCLACS

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 01/01/20 07:14 AM

Happy New Year Everyone. I intentionally stayed home this year for some needed solitude. Brother and mother invited me over. Declined. Landlord invited me to party upstairs. (Sounded like a stampede up there...lol) Talked with buddy/band mate on phone tonight. He chilling by himself. Had a rough day emotionally. Went numb again. Not because of NYE or being alone. Just past thoughts spanning back 13 years, successes and failures, where life is going in what direction, what progresses and changes have been made. etc.. Feelings and thoughts are funny man. Really letting go and partially letting go really does take time. But I'm determined to choose it everyday. Still figuring myself out with that in solitude which is a good thing. Sometimes we miss someone or who they were terribly and other times were just good doing our own thing focusing on ourselves.

Buddy actually emailed me Corey Wayne's How to be 3% Man . Finding it to be a great read and loving it in its sensible way and delivery. Actually read most of my posts from a year ago. I know it was probably heavy-laden with all of writing I did hear on DB. I'm glad I did it though since it acts as a reflection and a journal entry from where people were, are, and where they are going. Man a lot has changed in my thinking, circumstances and such as far as living life. Like to put more of that into action and practice in this year. I really really really want to express nothing but absolute gratitude to everyone here for being so attentive, listening and supportive and patient, especially in the beginning. I understand a lot of the things now that you guys said then, much more profoundly. Its funny how most of us here reflect on our entire 1yr. 2yr. Or however many years and realize we are no longer the same person we were, but kind of are in a sense. Some people change radically in a short amount of time and some people change slowly over time.

Just wanted to say God bless everyone of you and I hope you guys work torward being the best version of yourself in 2020. Love you all.
Posted By: DS9

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 01/01/20 08:09 AM

Happy new year ih. Jah bless you too mate. Sending you some heat and sunshine from sweltering oz. your virtual dbing buddy, ds
Posted By: IHCLACS

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 01/02/20 02:06 PM

Thanks DS9. I am forming some great the thories and mindsets over the last 24hrs..I think Im going to start playing a little game with myself this new year. Every time I start thinking of the past and getting emotionally stuck at times. Im going to actually do something beneficial or new for myself and just keep adding to the list. Building and doing building and doing.
Posted By: IHCLACS

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 01/13/20 03:12 PM

So last week was a bad week. Water pump broke on car. $500 bill. Credit card near max. Mom went into hospital one week ago for slight fever, shortness of breath, eventually had to be intubated, respiratory shut down, kidneys shut down, liver shut down. The hospital did everything they could with dialysis and treatment and I highly commend them for it. Mom unfortunately died yesterday. Im going to miss her. She was my confidant. My inspiration, my rock, and my best friend. Missed a boatload of work and $. Haven't slept in 5 days, have to settle funeral arrangements and estate. Wake for Thurs. Funeral for Friday. Snow coming Sat, S2 has minor ear surgery Friday early morning. Have to figure out with Brothers what to do with Moms house since its willed to my brother, but Im POA and Executor. Place is a $hithole so its going to take months if not a year to get it to market. XW was helpful with intentions. She started giving me advice on the estate stuff twice, so I politely said thanks for the advice, very useful and appreciate it. But you are overstepping your bounds. But she meant well and was just looking out for me and I get that. Got to see S2 briefly Sat and take him to the playground before I had to rush to the hospital. We had fun. Despite everything going on, and mediation possibly starting soon. I'm glad Mom is in a better place. For the life of me I can't figure out how or why I'm so calm through all of this. Im actually pretty good. I feel like the rock in the storm. It must be Jesus.
Posted By: AnotherStander

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 01/13/20 07:46 PM

Oh man, so sorry to hear about your mom IH, that's terrible! At least she went quickly and with little pain, it's a small silver lining but it's something.

I was executor for my grandmother's estate. I was handling it from 250 miles away. Her place was also a mess. We spent a week going through everything and throwing stuff away, giving stuff away, determining what we wanted to keep and what would go in the estate sale. I hired a person that specializes in estate sales and let her handle that part of it. Her place needed a ton of work but we elected to sell it as-is. Of course we got less for it, but in my opinion it was well worth the loss to not have to deal with renovations for months. So you might consider that. Consult with a realtor and find out how much it's worth as-is, and how much it would be worth renovated. Evaluate that against the renovation costs to decide if it's worth messing with. Good luck!
Posted By: IHCLACS

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 01/13/20 08:24 PM

Yeah AS I think Im going to go that route. Life's too busy and too short to be spending my time putting a silk hat on a pig. But its willed to my brother so? Ill see what he wants to do. He wants to start over and move south across the country. He's been holding the bag, paying all the taxes and helping Mom for the last 8 years. I'm considering the same. As long as I work out custody. Have a dilapidated house in a now prime area and prime market. [censored] it's a knock down.
Posted By: IronWill

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 01/13/20 09:41 PM

Hey IH -

I'm so sorry to hear about your loss. My condolences to you and your family.

These things are never easy, but you're a strong person and I know you'll figure it out.

Just like everything else, when it goes south, take it one day at a time, man.

Take care!
Posted By: LH19

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 01/13/20 09:45 PM

Sorry DB brother. Hang in there and be strong!
Posted By: DS9

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 01/14/20 04:47 AM

Oh gee IH. I don't know what to say my friend. You and your family have my prayers, sympathies and deepest respect at the passing of your mother. I'm so sorry for all the sh*t you've been through mate.

Keep posting with your thoughts and feelings and know you've got DB kin everywhere in the world, and especially a virtual DB bro in Oz.

Have you thought about seeing a GP to maybe get some meds to help take the edge off and sleep?

Focus on getting through this, even if it's minute by minute.

If you need $ help to fix your car, let me know, ok.

Stay strong buddy. I'll have you and your mum in my prayers tonight.

With sympathy, DS
Posted By: IHCLACS

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 01/14/20 01:56 PM

Thanks guys. Actually staying pretty strong, and handling it pretty well. Things are getting done in short and timely fashion. The estate affairs ate going to be a whole nother ball game. Almost handling things a little too well which scares me. No meds. No counciling. Getting a reasonable amount of sleep. Got me rethinking my whole life. Something about my personna where I overreact to the small annoying trivial things that trip me up, that add up to big things. But for some reason in crises I thrive, Im calm, and I get things done. Kind of telling myself, if I can get through D and parent passing, I can do anything in life. Been here before with my Father so?
Posted By: Steve85

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 01/14/20 02:01 PM

Hi IHC. Admittedly, due to you getting good advice from others, I haven't kept up on your sitch. Can you give me a summary of where you are today, vs, say, 6 months ago?
Posted By: IHCLACS

Re: Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 5 - 01/22/20 06:00 PM

Much stronger mentally at handling the negatives. But still a little bit stuck fully healing and moving forward and taking more action on what I want my life to look like for the next 5, 10, 15 years. All I know is there is no where for me to go but up from here on out. My mindset is still flip flopping a little from day to day. But im getting there slowly. Things I want to change about myself, my circumstances I get a little stuck and frustrated but eventually move past it. I am trying to shift from just existing to actually living. Its the planning part im getting stuck on, but the ideas are there.
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