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Posted By: lumis70 A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 07/27/19 11:02 PM
Don't really know where to start, so I guess I'll dive right in.

I'm 35, and my W just turned 30. We have been married 5 years and together 8. We have a toddler turning 2 in a little more than a week.

The morning of June 14th was the last moment I've felt as if my marriage wasn't teetering on the edge. Before jumping into that, I'll give some backstory of the major points of my relationship leading to this.

My W is the daughter of a minister. She has always felt that she had to put on a good public face because of this.

Prior to our relationship, my W suffered sexual trauma in the form of date rape by someone she was dating. I didn't know this until the first year into our relationship.

Our dating period had only minor hiccups, reaching a point 2 years in after 1 year of co-habitation where, out of the blue, she wanted to split up. We reconciled 24 hours later and were soon after talking about marriage. This seems to be a pattern that continues - she allows herself to reach a state of vulnerability, considers separating, and then we take the next big step in our lives after reconciliation. The steps we take have never been taken as a way of 'making things better' but rather after reconciliation, we've both felt that we've been sitting stagnant and it was simply time to push forward.

Less than one year into our marriage, she cheated on me over a window of 5-7 months. A lot. Like over a dozen PA with some other EA sprinkled in. I will save the forum the details, but her behavior was EXTREMELY destructive to herself, the relationship, and everyone involved (including OM that were themselves married). She came clean later in the evening after a day where one of the OM had been in our marital bed. The sweater unraveled slowly over the next few months; one affair turned into over a dozen.

We attended marital counseling initially, and the counselor was not very effective. W was lying through the appointments. The next counselor we saw was a specialist in sex/love addition and personally, I found her very helpful. My W felt disgusted in herself and while I had my own mountain to climb, I felt that my W's SLA was a coping response to the prior sexual trauma my wife experienced, and therefore, an illness. Sickness and health, and all that.

Side note - my W and I took SLA tests provided the counselor and I expected to see a high (bad) score for myself. What I didn't realize was that the SLA tests focused on the risks to self/others the potential addict was willing to take to get their 'fix'. As I expected, the W spiked the charts and I barely registered beyond a couple of points. The counselor suggested that my W was pursuing the OM as a way of taking back control that was taken from her in her trauma. When things got physical, she dissociated entirely, describing the situation as viewing the sexual act from a security camera above the room.

Near the end of the infidelity, my wife retreated to her parents house and wanted to end the relationship. We reconciled over a few days time of face to face discussion and time together.

Over the next 2 years, we explored a number of alternative lifestyles, such as mutually dating OW (W is bisexual) in both the emotional and physical sense. In the end, we had some fun that was in no way worth the emotional damage. My W was very damaged by seeing my emotional attraction to other women after her own fell flat in a quicker amount of time.

I'll talk about my vices a little at this point, and while they do not begin here, this just feels like a good point to talk about myself.

I have always considered myself a fairly mature person, though this allows me to get a little overconfident in myself. I have done things like tease, nag, etc. over things that don't really warrant this behavior. In 2 or 3 moments in our relationship, I've have blown my top and said some very hurtful things implying many of our issues are solely my W's fault. Generally in arguments, I am the calm one. I also had a wandering eye for a long time in the relationship; due to the bisexuality of my W and previous girlfriends, I sometimes would comment on other women to my W. Sometimes this was acceptable, but often it was not. I recognized my faults and worked on them, but I am a stubborn person, and some vices have taken a LONG time to improve upon.

At some point along the way (in these 2 years), my W opened her own business. This was a huge success for her, and shockingly, she cheated around this time again in a one-night PA. She told me within a couple of days and we worked through it. I was aware of the probability of relapse so while it was a shock, I was not hurt in the same way. We discussed the possibility that she has a tendency to 'sabotage her own happiness' during major transitional points in her life. This wasn't the first or last time we discussed this topic.

Near the end of our polyamory 'experiment', my wife again decided leave. I don't think this departure lasted more than 24 hours. When she opened up and expressed that she didn't see a future with children AND polyamory, I think she was surprised that I called off the only existing outside relationship immediately. We pushed on. Much later (I'll note it further in), I found out that she had EA with two OM around this time. They were short-lived but they did happen. There were no PA to my knowledge.

Shortly after reconciliation, my wife learned she was pregnant. She had an IUD and this was completely unexpected. I trusted her when she told me that the child was mine and there was zero possibility of any other scenario. There was some doubt, but I'll clear it up right now by saying my daughter is my twin... no question she is very much my flesh and blood.

12 weeks into the pregnancy, I had a nervous breakdown lasting 2-3 weeks. During this time I stayed with my parents and started on antidepressants. They were hell to start, but about 10 days in, they finally started leveling me out. I returned home on my pregnant W's request.

During the pregnancy, my W had morning sickness from 12 weeks until labor. I tried my best to support her, but I was battling my own insecurities and fears during this time. She looks back on this time as being very alone.

Our daughter arrived and we couldn't have been more happy. Unfortunately, I felt as if I was always playing 'catch-up' in my fatherly duties and that my W was just so much better at it than me. I wasn't a bad father, but I could have done much more in the first 12-18 months of my daughter's life. W looks back on this time as functioning as a single mother at times.

Around the time my daughter turned 1, we decided to buy a home. Days before closing, my W disclosed that the business was not doing well, and that she had the EA that was mentioned a few paragraphs above. We continued on and closed on the home.

This brings us, more or less, to a year before the present day. In this last year, we have had the following occur:

1. Our former landlord sued us for $6000 immediately after moving out. The money was being used to improve his home in order to sell it, and he was writing it off as 'damages from former tenants'. This included turning the front and back lawn of the home into a golf coarse quality landscape. We could not financially fight it, and we settled out of court to avoid further legal fees. The former landlord clearly had practiced this in the past.

2. We had another unplanned pregnancy while using an IUD. This time, we chose to terminate the pregnancy at 12 weeks and requested to not see or know the health of the child. We both will regret this decision for the rest of our lives but financially, we were weighing our current child's well-being against our unborn child. I believe that my W feels as if I convinced her to go through with this. I do not feel as if we even had a decision in the matter.

3. My W's business went bankrupt and I discovered she had been paying herself on credit for a long time. She is currently in debt over $80k and working on filing for Chapter 7.

4. I had another nervous breakdown, and emotionally lashed out at my wife one evening while coming up on my medications. I should have stayed with my parents. I said many things I regret. I blamed her for everything. I told her she needed to 'grow up'. It was bad all around.

5. The basement of our home flooded and caused $8000 in damages. The cause was a faulty weather sealing job performed by the previous owner's hired contractor. We are still in the midst of a lawsuit to try to recoup these damages (though it seems promising).

6. After my breakdown (lasting about a week this time), my wife had another EA which I discovered.

7. I personally reached out to someone online about the idea of polyamory and then presented the idea to my W within 24 hours. I came into the conversation with my W from the perspective 'if you're not interested, we can just drop it and ghost her'. To her, this was an EA that I committed.

8. My W's car blew up. The motor is completely blown and the car is dead in the water.

This brings us to a April/May of this year. My W let me know that she was considering leaving. After some discussion, we determined that my involvement as a father was the biggest driver. I stepped up my game. Big time. This has not been something I've backslid on and it has felt perfectly natural. Things seemed to be improving.

In the 2 weeks leading up to June 14th, I discussed with my individual counselor that I'd had a strange feeling that my W was socking away money, going to just up and leave suddenly, or something similar. There was just a 'fog' over the relationship despite constant reassurance, sex, etc.

The night before June 14th, my wife and I had sex, and later, she literally got out of a bath in the evening, walked all the way downstairs, and invited me into the bath with her. I asked her later in bed if something was wrong; despite all the physical connection, her mood felt off. She became very agitated (not uncommon when difficult feelings are being discussed), and we shelved it.

The morning of June 14th felt normal. I left for work and came home on my lunch as usual. I noticed her car (my old car) was there but the house seemed empty and her computer was missing. I texted her and she said to check my e-mail. The e-mail stated that she was separating, living with her (local) parents indefinitely, and wanting to end our marriage and discuss financial and child care ASAP. I was devastated and reached out to anyone I could this day.

I tried to go to the in-law's home and my MIL came out and told me I would not be allowed inside to see my daughter, my daughter would not be brought outside to see me, and I could not take my daughter home. I was told that I was abusive (later clarified as 'emotionally abusive') and that my W and the MIL did not feel safe. I called the local police to understand my rights. The PD took a report but talked me out of dispatching a welfare check as they suggested this would be seen as a power play (and my W had agreed to speak to me face-to-face later in the evening with her parents present).

I also contacted a family attorney on my bosses' advice. I received about 15 minutes of consultation discussing status quo, etc. and I understand the lawyer's position now as being a facilitator and not a counselor.

I sat down with my W that evening and we talked... a lot. I could not get a direct reason for the departure aside from 'it isn't working', 'I've been unhappy for years', etc. Pure negatives. She also voiced that her individual counselor was the one who told her to leave in this manner, send the e-mail, etc. I voiced my disapproval at her counselor's advice noting that I saw this appropriate for a woman escaping abuse... but it seemed strange here given her counselor had never seen or spoken to me (her counselor is a web-based video chat service... I have my own reservations about this, but some swear by it). We went for a walk and she had a brief moment when she said 'I thought I was totally ready to sign papers and be done today...' then stopped before she finished.

Over the next week, we lived apart and divided our parental duties roughly 50:50. I hounded her over text message. We would get emotionally exhausted face-to-face. It was terrible. I read a few self-help books, learned a LOT about myself in the evenings alone. We finally agreed to sit down and have a long talk. We agreed to the following:

1. Written/defined child-care schedule.
2. Attend 8 weeks of marital counseling.
3. No legal action during this time.
4. No romantic/sexual relationships during this time.
5. Spend Saturdays together as a family.
6. She was welcome to return home sooner than 8 weeks, if she desired.
7. Decide during out 8th session to separate, reconcile, or extend our counseling agreement.

We both agreed to this after some discussion.

During this time, she had a birth control implant removed from her arm. Within a week, she explained to me that with the implant, she felt as if she was falling out of love with me and was uncomfortable when I touched her. The reason she realized that, was that those feelings disappeared after the implant was removed.

The first counseling session was stressful... but approximately a week later, she was willing to stay the night. I urged her that in order to see my improvement, she needed to be somewhat present. We starting being physically intimate immediately.

The following three weeks were very positive. I was considering her emotions more in every decision or interaction and while it felt totally natural, she told me I seemed like a different person. She had a few moments of doubt, but was talking about things like renewing our vows in January, having another child, etc.

On July 18th, she voiced that she was struggling again, and viewing her time at her parent's house as a better living situation again. On the 21st, she doubled down on this telling me she was having major doubts and 'didn't know what was going on with her this week'. Due to the screwed up hormonal balance from the implant removal, she had two periods back-to-back with only 2-3 days in-between.

She hung out with some high school friends on the 19th. Around this time she started not wearing her ring by choice (it was being repaired through part of all of this). I asked her to wear it that evening and she later disclosed that she had taken it off in front of her friends because they didn't know she was living at home again. Along the way, she has really seemed embarrassed to tell friends/family she is trying to make things work with me again.

The night of the 21st, I was told I was smothering her, that my changes I'd made, while positive, seemed like 'BS' and that they were not sustainable. She wanted me to sleep on the couch, later allowed me to sleep in bed with a body pillow between us, and then later removed the pillow. This week has been very warm and cold... sometimes physical touch is okay, other times it sets her off.

This finally came to a head (again) on the evening of the 25th when we had a friend over, played some board games, and when the he left, literally after the door shut, she said 'we need to talk - this isn't working' and expressed that she didn't want to complete the remaining 4 weeks of counseling, wanted to call it off, sign papers, be done.

We slept in the same bed that evening and after some discussion, attended counseling in the morning. In the weeks leading up to this, the counselor had asked how we were doing and the W would immediately have a positive response (aside from week 1). Week 4 was lukewarm, but still a positive response noting that we had been having sex, etc.

She told the counselor she was done putting in work on our marriage, and just wanted to end it. The counselor made her repeat this a few times, and my W added 'I'll be the bad guy'. The counselor attempted to find an arrangement that could work for us as I really wanted to complete what we committed to. The counselor offered:

1. Stop coming to counseling completely.
2. Attend marital counseling individually for the remaining 3 weeks.
3. Attend together, while living apart, and having an open mind by omitting the black/white outcomes of permanent divorce/separation or permanent reconciliation.

My W agreed to choice 3.

We also agreed that interactions face-to-face outside of counseling would NOT include the relationship as a topic.

We are still working out our arrangements for care of our daughter but W is camping with the same high school friends from last night until Sunday afternoon, and plans to pack her things and move out that evening.

I have done a LOT of reading on this site, and will probably read half of the DR book by the end of the day tomorrow. I am trying my hardest to give her space right now through the pain. I am also trying to take care of my daughter, and keep my supportive friends/family close. I realize that friends/family will be biased but I feel like I'm losing my mind when I'm alone and not doing things like writing, reading, etc.

Any support at all is appreciated. I'm hurting right now. I still hold hope that we *CAN* get through this if she is willing, but I am trying to take it day by day and care for myself without weighing any potential future expectations higher than others.

I am trying to practice detachment, doing my 180s, and following the 37 rules. When I had 2 weeks alone (5-ish weeks back) it took a solid week to week and a half to calm myself a little. This is when she started to become more receptive. I am struggling to control myself more than I'm attempting to control the situation under times of extreme stress... but I'm doing the best I can. I just don't know what I'm even dealing with right now... W is only 30 but she hits SO many of the MLC bullet points. At the same time, she has a very WAW mentality.
Posted By: Cadet Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 07/28/19 01:03 PM
Welcome to the board

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htm

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!

Get out and Get a Life (GAL).

DETACH.

Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.

Have NO EXPECTATIONS.

Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:

I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072

Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414

Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566

Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554

Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619

Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Posted By: sandi2 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 07/28/19 04:11 PM
Hi, welcome to the forum. Sounds as if you are dealing with a W who has very serious issues.

How old was she when she was raped? Did your W ever tell her parents about the rape? Did your W receive any psychological counseling after the rape?

Quote
Less than one year into our marriage, she cheated on me over a window of 5-7 months. A lot. Like over a dozen PA with some other EA sprinkled in.


Well, the first thought that comes to my mind is that this is all related somehow to the rape aftermath, if the girl never received therapy.

I don't think MC is going to help at the moment. She needs a psychiatrist. She can fake out a counselor pretty easily. She got experienced in putting on a pleasant face and giving a positive response, being the D of a minister........right?

Did you know her very long before you started dating?

Quote
The next counselor we saw was a specialist in sex/love addition and personally, I found her very helpful. My W felt disgusted in herself and while I had my own mountain to climb, I felt that my W's SLA was a coping response to the prior sexual trauma my wife experienced, and therefore, an illness. Sickness and health, and all that.


What do you mean, "I had my own mountain to climb"? Are you addicted to porn, or have you been guilty of inappropriate behavior with other women?

Quote
Over the next 2 years, we explored a number of alternative lifestyles, such as mutually dating OW (W is bisexual) in both the emotional and physical sense. In the end, we had some fun that was in no way worth the emotional damage. My W was very damaged by seeing my emotional attraction to other women after her own fell flat in a quicker amount of time.


shocked Okay, I'm trying to understand. Was this exploration of alternative lifestyles suppose to help your W find peace with the trauma of the rape........or was it a solution for sex addiction?

Quote
I just don't know what I'm even dealing with right now... W is only 30 but she hits SO many of the MLC bullet points. At the same time, she has a very WAW mentality.


I finished reading your post and I am almost speechless, otherwise, I would probably write way too much. I don't think your W is a WAW. Your W needs a psychiatrist, and I'm not being shady. She has emotional/mental issues that will only get worse if she doesn't receive proper help in dealing with her rape.......which is probably the root for all her acting out.

Others will come and give their thoughts on it. IMHO, I think the MR needs to be put on hold, until she is willing to reveal the truth and stay under the care of a psychiatrist. If she does better while staying with her parents, then politely stay away and leave her alone. This situation is not going to get better long-term, until she gets better help than previously.

You said it yourself, every time she splits, she wants to reconcile and jump to some next step.........which is not a real step, and then she repeats sexual behaviors outside the M. She's still using that same pattern, so going back with her right now is not going to last......b/c she needs serious help. Trying these alternative lifestyles, etc., has damaged the MR, and it's damaged you as individuals. It's going to take a lot more than a few days at the parents to fix this mess. ((hugs))

I'll ask again, do the parents know about the rape? If so, it's important to know how they responded and what they did to get their D help.

How did she rebel as a preacher's D? Was she promiscuous before the date rape experience?

How do you deal with her chronic lying?
Posted By: lumis70 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 07/28/19 07:33 PM
Originally Posted by sandi2
Hi, welcome to the forum. Sounds as if you are dealing with a W who has very serious issues.

How old was she when she was raped? Did your W ever tell her parents about the rape? Did your W receive any psychological counseling after the rape?


IIRC, she was 21 or just turned 22. W told her parents about the rape after the infidelity near the end of our first year of marriage. She also filed a police report. It had been too long for the DA to do anything as they said there simply wasn't enough evidence to make a case. My W has seen multiple counselors/therapists since the rape, though she didn't prioritize it early on. Some have helped, some haven't.

Originally Posted by sandi2
Well, the first thought that comes to my mind is that this is all related somehow to the rape aftermath, if the girl never received therapy.

I don't think MC is going to help at the moment. She needs a psychiatrist. She can fake out a counselor pretty easily. She got experienced in putting on a pleasant face and giving a positive response, being the D of a minister........right?


She is the D of a minister, yes.

Originally Posted by sandi2
Did you know her very long before you started dating?


A couple of years online via a dating site. I was in the friend zone for this time due to distance, mainly. When I completed college and my job brought me closer, we dated for a few weeks before she withdrew. This is when she started dating the guy that ultimately raped her. She returned to me a few weeks after. It was a long time before I knew about the rape.

Originally Posted by sandi2
What do you mean, "I had my own mountain to climb"? Are you addicted to porn, or have you been guilty of inappropriate behavior with other women?


Being the spouse to an addict and choosing to stay rather than leave is a mountain in and of itself, which is what I was referring to. I needed to learn to set boundaries and learn how to forgive. This took years.

I watch pornography, yes. Is it an addiction? That is tough to say... my W has been accepting of it as a form of stress relief for me, but at other times, she indicates that it hurts her. If it is something that causes her pain, I would want to stop (and would consider this working against an addiction), but the mixed signals I receive from her on this topic make it very difficult to know what is right. My definition of addiction relates to the willingness to allow your actions to hurt yourself and others.

I did make my own mistake with another woman - I'll note the details below after your next question.

Originally Posted by sandi2
shocked Okay, I'm trying to understand. Was this exploration of alternative lifestyles suppose to help your W find peace with the trauma of the rape........or was it a solution for sex addiction?


This actually began with my wife coming to me saying she wanted to physically explore women (potentially together with me). This took place really close to when her infidelity began and may have coincided with EA or even PA taking place.

Shortly after this, I went on a camping trip with friends. One of my exes was on the trip (this wasn't known or planned in advance). She drunkenly voiced to me that she was interested in being physical with another woman... and I said that I would connect her with my W if she wanted to. We were stupid and made out. I called my W in the morning, left immediately, and told her what had happened. She confessed to kissing someone else, as well. Much, much later, I learned that there was much more she had done already in terms of PA by that point (oral sex, etc.).

The fallout of the infidelity was a very confusing time for her and I. We were already wrapped up in ethically non-monogamous actions at this time, despite wanting to leave the unethical behavior behind. Our exploration had nothing to do with the rape, nor the sexual addiction... we were young, dumb, and trying to figure out what we wanted. It did serve as a common ground for us - we enjoyed talking about the people we were seeing together, commiserating, etc. It certainly wasn't necessary or beneficial for us, long-term.

Originally Posted by sandi2
I finished reading your post and I am almost speechless, otherwise, I would probably write way too much. I don't think your W is a WAW. Your W needs a psychiatrist, and I'm not being shady. She has emotional/mental issues that will only get worse if she doesn't receive proper help in dealing with her rape.......which is probably the root for all her acting out.

Others will come and give their thoughts on it. IMHO, I think the MR needs to be put on hold, until she is willing to reveal the truth and stay under the care of a psychiatrist. If she does better while staying with her parents, then politely stay away and leave her alone. This situation is not going to get better long-term, until she gets better help than previously.

You said it yourself, every time she splits, she wants to reconcile and jump to some next step.........which is not a real step, and then she repeats sexual behaviors outside the M. She's still using that same pattern, so going back with her right now is not going to last......b/c she needs serious help. Trying these alternative lifestyles, etc., has damaged the MR, and it's damaged you as individuals. It's going to take a lot more than a few days at the parents to fix this mess. ((hugs))


I agree, though we have a 2 year old D wrapped up in this. My family is my life to me, and my W obviously had this baggage coming in. I accept her for who she is and desperately want to continue this journey with her.

Originally Posted by sandi2
I'll ask again, do the parents know about the rape? If so, it's important to know how they responded and what they did to get their D help.


They know, and they took a passive yet sympathetic approach. They generally just say 'we are always here for you' and support her in her decisions.

They also know about the infidelity, business bankruptcy, etc. though they did not know as many details as they do now. When the EA took place earlier in this year, I reached out to her father out of concern for my D and my W's ability to be a fit mother. I provided many details of our struggles in the past that he was unaware of. In my W's interactions with this OM, she sent photos of our D, including bath tub photos, etc. Nothing overtly sexual or inappropriate (beyond this being so very obviously inappropriate), nor anything that he was requesting be sent. I saw this as a HUGE, HUGE issue and called her out on it. She didn't have any ill intent, but she really had no clue who this guy was on the other side of the text/voice/etc. messaging.

Originally Posted by sandi2
How did she rebel as a preacher's D? Was she promiscuous before the date rape experience?


I wouldn't say overly promiscuous to my knowledge. She dated and performed oral sex on guys she was dating, but I was the second person she willingly had sex with. The only other guy was an ex boyfriend that verbally abused her.

Originally Posted by sandi2
How do you deal with her chronic lying?


That's a very good question and difficult to answer when worded like that. I trust her. I can't explain why, but I do trust her. I have moments of doubt and typically know when something is up (the fog around the relationship prior to the BD).
Posted By: ovrrnbw Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 07/28/19 11:21 PM
Hey there, sorry you're here. I think your first post may be longer than my first post. And I hope it is b/c then I can feel better about being long-winded, haha!

It sounds like you've been trying to put a band aid on all these problems, but the band aid is not the remedy.

[/quote]The counselor suggested that my W was pursuing the OM as a way of taking back control that was taken from her in her trauma. When things got physical, she dissociated entirely, describing the situation as viewing the sexual act from a security camera above the room.[/quote] Sounds like the young girl from the show Sharp Objects, if anyone has seen it. Crazy how us humans work.

Ultimately, she is exhibiting destructive behaviors consistently for a long time and is luring other people in. Now you have to let go and be the best you that you can be. You may lose her over all of this, but losing her is better than continuing down the road she is leading you.

Quote
I trusted her when she told me that the child was mine and there was zero possibility of any other scenario.
Have you bounced this off anyone else? It's a highly questionable statement. I wonder if the ensuing depression and anxiety was related.

The two of you have created an environment of turmoil but there's always an explanation or it's not your fault or her fault. You need to let go of her and figure out your own issues. And if and when you do that you may want no part of her anymore. Just stop going to MC, go to IC, and do your best to get through these tough emotions. You've put up with so much disrespect it's unbelievable. This is insane and you need to have a major life change if you are not going to continue this pattern.

As for your W, I'd back off and support in whatever way you can. She needs more help as the counselors haven't been successful this far, though I don't know how much she is committed to fixing herself yet either.
Posted By: lumis70 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 07/29/19 01:35 AM
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Ultimately, she is exhibiting destructive behaviors consistently for a long time and is luring other people in. Now you have to let go and be the best you that you can be. You may lose her over all of this, but losing her is better than continuing down the road she is leading you.


I am trying to detach and better myself. It is difficult because it is such a shock from my normal daily routine to not simply spend time with my family.

The second BD after 3 weeks of what seemed like improvement and commitment really was not something I was expecting and I'm having a much more difficult time with all of this right now. In hindsight, I realize her talking of another child, vacations, renewing vows, etc. was a total distraction for her and fantasy. When the reality set in for her that she needed to work hard, those three 'good' weeks might as well have not existed.

Her motivation to work (in any sense) has been badly damaged and got noticeably worse around the time the business money issues all came to light. She worked very hard, and the business still failed. Mismanagement was a problem, but she DID put her blood, sweat, and tears into the company.

Regarding the willingness to put in effort - when she was here for the 3 weeks, I rarely even found that she'd close a cabinet in the kitchen or put condiments away after using them. I held my tongue, but it was like living with a child in that sense (hence my questions about MLC). The fact that she is shrugging off all possible responsibility, talking about renting a 'cute little apartment' (how?!), borrowing her parents car, living with her parents, and spending quite a bit more time with her high school friends that she has in years just all seems like she's trying to roll back the clock.

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Have you bounced this off anyone else? It's a highly questionable statement. I wonder if the ensuing depression and anxiety was related.


You might have to clarify what you mean here - I had a breakdown like clockwork 12 weeks in on the second unexpected pregnancy, as well. Never had anything like these before in my life. It certainly was clinical depression but if you're questioning that my D is my blood, there is no question in my mind. She looks exactly like me.

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The two of you have created an environment of turmoil but there's always an explanation or it's not your fault or her fault. You need to let go of her and figure out your own issues. And if and when you do that you may want no part of her anymore.


The thought has come to mind. With our child, having no part of her in my life anymore is not a viable option. I am absolutely not 'staying together for the kids' but I feel as if divorce is not the most positive option (not yet, at least). Again, I wouldn't be here on this board if I thought otherwise... that said, I'm sure my wife's behaviors would test Michelle's rare instances of recommending divorce given the recurring infidelity.

If divorce is the best option, I am hoping I can believe it before it comes to that point.

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Just stop going to MC, go to IC, and do your best to get through these tough emotions. You've put up with so much disrespect it's unbelievable. This is insane and you need to have a major life change if you are not going to continue this pattern.


My IC is good, but he and I agreed to revisit after the 8 weeks of MC. He is concerned about me, first and foremost (as he is trained). Our last session focused on radical acceptance of the situation and realizing I have no power aside from controlling myself.

Personally, I have enjoyed our sessions with the MC. It has been a safe place that my W and I have communicated better than we have in ages. We have 3 sessions left of our agreed upon 8 total. The side benefit of the MC is that it will likely be useful for long-term co-parenting, should we go our separate ways.

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As for your W, I'd back off and support in whatever way you can. She needs more help as the counselors haven't been successful this far, though I don't know how much she is committed to fixing herself yet either.


I think she is lost and doesn't fully (or even partially) know how. I am focusing right now on trying to stay detached. Keeping text messages entirely focused on logistics of childcare, money, etc. Trying to avoid saying 'I love you' (that's my hardest rule to keep). I appreciate the tough love from the replies on here. It honestly isn't what I expected after lurking for so long... but it helps put my position in perspective.
Posted By: lumis70 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 07/29/19 02:59 AM
She suggested a compromise on Friday that during this separation, our D not be relocated, but rather my W is at the home during waking hours, then returns to her parents to sleep. I told her to think on it over the weekend but that I was open to it.

She returned home this evening and announced that she wanted to resume the co-parenting schedule we used 5 weeks back. I reminded her of her compromise suggestion and she essentially told me she changed her mind, and this is what she wants. She admitted that her earlier idea was potentially better for our daughter, but she didn't seem to care.

While she was here, I made a point to mention that when she specifically says things in front of me like "[D's name], I missed you so so much", that it was hurtful because she intentionally tries to make a grand show of the fact that she's not saying these things to me.

I managed to not say 'I love you' (first) while she was here, but I did let her know that I had missed her while she was with friends this weekend. She took a light pack of clothing, our daughter, her computer, and left. On the way out, she did say 'we will both miss you' and 'we love you' and I did tell her I loved her back.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 07/29/19 01:34 PM
lumis, sorry you are here. And wow, that initial read of your sitch was pretty exhausting. Not going to lie, but it appears that you have a lot to overcome. And you've obviously made a lot of mistakes.

First, your initial post had a thread of victim-hood throughout. You seem to run a bit from responsibility. For instance, on the abortion. You position it as if you had NO choice. That is not something that you just fall into. That is a deliberate action that requires appointments and follow-through. So to paint it as if you guys were periphery to the decision to terminate that pregnancy is a complete white-wash of facts. Using your child's well-being against the unborn child's is also a falsehood. That casts dispersion on anyone that has more than one child! You even talk about your "breakdowns" as if you are using them as excuses for not stepping up, or as if it an excuse to make poor decisions (leaving the marital home, etc). I do not pretend to be an expert on mental health, but you seem to be able to handle some things that are pretty anxiety-inducing.

Second, you are putting way too much pressure on her. The whole agreement to do counseling for 8 weeks, and everything related to that smacks of trying to exert pressure, and even more, control. Reminding her of what she has agreed to. Making the point that she has to be present to see your changes. All of that screams pressure....AND control. I'd never excuse EAs and PAs, but I do have to wonder how much of her EAs and PAs are due to you being overbearing. As if she is rebelling against the control you try to exert. I saw this dynamic in my own sitch, as I was pretty controlling, and would let me frustrations and displeasure be known when her choices didn't match up to the choices I wanted her to make. Even on this point, I see avoidance from you on taking responsibility. You blame her promiscuity solely on her "trauma", while there are clear signs that there is more at play there than just merely her being driven by her past trauma.

Third, I mentioned lots of mistakes. lumis, you have an opportunity for huge 180s here. Sure you can 180 on your being an absent father. And being verbally abusive. Those were two things I had to 180 on too. But you can also 180 on your ethics and morals. "Shared OW?" Reaching out to someone online? Presenting polyamory to her as an option based on that EA? lumis, do you have a moral compass at all? Do you have a real understanding of what it means to commit to someone in a marriage, forsaking all others? You say she was a minister's daughter, and her parents seem to be somewhat involved in her life. Have you ever reached out to them for moral guidance? Or anyone for that matter?

You are reading DR. Good. Start implementing it. That means you are going to have to take bold steps. First, GAL. When you aren't parenting you are busy. And this doesn't involve OW!! It involves you being with other males, doing manly things. I don't care if it is merely bowling, the fact is you need male companionship that has nothing to do wive loe and sex. Second, you need to detach from her. This means you try to exert ZERO control over her. You remove all pressure and pursuit. You give her space and time to figure her own stuff out. You LET HER GO TO GET HER BACK! And finally, work on you.180s all around. Get into church if you have any inclination along those lines and try to find some type of a moral compass to your life. You are not an animal. You can control your impulses!!

Final 2x4:

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While she was here, I made a point to mention that when she specifically says things in front of me like "[D's name], I missed you so so much", that it was hurtful because she intentionally tries to make a grand show of the fact that she's not saying these things to me.


What in the world is that!?! You say you are partway through DR. What part of the book advocates this type of pressure? How does this align with detachment? Could this scream desperation and being completely pathetic more?? (I'll answer that last one: NO!!!) You have to man up and command respect. And this ain't it. Everything isn't about you. You said: "I have always considered myself a fairly mature person". Really? Because the above quote shows a total lack of maturity. I mean, being jealous of your own child's relationship with their mother?!?! Really?

Lumis, I sure hope your W isn't the only one lying to her IC..............
Posted By: petri Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 07/29/19 02:33 PM
Lumis. You are doing everything I did. Well I was not jealous to my kids for having a mother who misses them. But everything else. Pressure to get to therapy, play the victim card etc. Dude. This is a loooooong run. You have to realize that this isn't about her. This is about you. It took me a long time to understand that. And still after 2 years I see myself asking "am I really doing this for me or her". Like Steve said LET HER GO TO GET HER BACK. It took me too long to do that the right way. You need to get to your head that you are not the victim and you need to stop acting like one.

Be the best dad ever and become the better version of you. I was told today about my XW that she has to work on herself. We cannot cure them. It is not our duty to pull them out of the deep end. Like Neffer always posts: be the lighthouse

You got this buddy. Just try to calm down. It's hard, we all know it. But it's the only thing you can do.
Posted By: Traveler Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 07/29/19 03:06 PM
Wow! You and your wife have seen a lot and have a ton to overcome. I hope you find this a safe place to work on you, and you ultimately emerge as a happier person and father.

Originally Posted by lumis
While she was here, I made a point to mention that when she specifically says things in front of me like "[D's name], I missed you so so much", that it was hurtful because she intentionally tries to make a grand show of the fact that she's not saying these things to me.

I managed to not say 'I love you' (first) while she was here, but I did let her know that I had missed her while she was with friends this weekend. She took a light pack of clothing, our daughter, her computer, and left. On the way out, she did say 'we will both miss you' and 'we love you' and I did tell her I loved her back.


This is one of many places where you try to control your wife. Toning this down would be a great 180. You control you, she controls her. You CAN set boundaries to protect yourself without being controlling. There's a whole thread on that topic Cadet doubtless linked to above. For example, if "When she makes a grand show of missing her daughter (but not you), you hurt, so you will walk to another room." If you decide upon that boundary, there's no need to communicate it, because the boundary is for you and not her.

This is not the same as being a doormat. When my partner visited I twice caught her trying to open a box I received with fun things waiting in it. I said, "No." She was excited and worried I wouldn't get around to opening them. I said I look forward to opening them when I feel like. I control me, she controls her.
Posted By: lumis70 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 07/29/19 05:49 PM
Originally Posted by Steve85
For instance, on the abortion. You position it as if you had NO choice. That is not something that you just fall into. That is a deliberate action that requires appointments and follow-through. So to paint it as if you guys were periphery to the decision to terminate that pregnancy is a complete white-wash of facts. Using your child's well-being against the unborn child's is also a falsehood. That casts dispersion on anyone that has more than one child!


You are correct. In the end, it was a choice. While sitting in that office watching my W take the pills, I half expected myself to slap them out of her hands and say 'no'... and I didn't. This is a burden I will live with the rest of my life. That said, I only think it would make my current situation worse if we had an infant in the mix. This doesn't make the abortion acceptable or justified, but I ask that you allow me to make my own peace with God on this one.

Originally Posted by Steve85
You even talk about your "breakdowns" as if you are using them as excuses for not stepping up, or as if it an excuse to make poor decisions (leaving the marital home, etc). I do not pretend to be an expert on mental health, but you seem to be able to handle some things that are pretty anxiety-inducing.


My two breakdowns were full-blown nervous breakdowns. My IC described my ability to handle stress as a large bowl that eventually overflows. Some people gradually check-out as stress increases while I maintain until I just eventually cannot. These breakdowns were periods of lying on the couch in total fear, consumed by intrusive thoughts and insomnia. Notably, early morning waking with consuming anxiety/fear that tapered off as the day went on. This is a spot-on clinical depression diagnosis. My anti-depressants help, but the initial ramp-up to the desired dosage is VERY rough and makes all the negative feelings more intense for a while. I did make the mistake of tapering off the anti-depressants after my first breakdown. I fully intend to continue these medications indefinitely now; combined with IC, they help to 'make my stress bowl larger', as my IC suggested.

I blame my breakdowns for two things - staying at my parents for 10 days or so while my pregnant W was home alone (first time), and lashing out at my wife one evening verbally (second time). Staying at my parents was not necessarily something that has been held against me - when my W asked me to come home at 7 days, then again at 10, she was very understanding (as much as she was able without experiencing my feelings directly).

The 'lash out' was and still is absolutely held against me with resentment. This would have been on day 3 or 4 of about 2-3 WEEKS of ramping up the medication dosage. For me, this meant I was in a position of my mental state being taken from a 3-4 (out of 10) to a 2. I know how I react to this medication, and in hindsight, being at my parents house for a week would have been a wiser choice. I said some very mean things that literally started with just a minor nag about our D's high chair being left all sticky and covered with food. My mouth kept running like a faucet spouting things such as blaming all our financial woes on her secrecy regarding her business debt, talk about the past infidelity, telling her to 'grow up', talk of splitting up, etc. I distinctly remember in my own head thinking 'what in the world am I saying?! I'm not this upset about these things!' and I just felt like I couldn't stop. To this day, I have never felt this out of control in what I was saying to anyone else.

Originally Posted by Steve85
Second, you are putting way too much pressure on her. The whole agreement to do counseling for 8 weeks, and everything related to that smacks of trying to exert pressure, and even more, control. Reminding her of what she has agreed to. Making the point that she has to be present to see your changes. All of that screams pressure....AND control.


I understand your view here. I have certainly backed off on the 'you need to be present to see my improvement' stance. The 8 weeks of counseling was something we sat down and discussed very amicably before agreeing to it. For her, I think it was a reasonable timeline that balanced her need to 'rip the band-aid off' and my struggle to not have ANY plan in place for the upcoming weeks.

I fear that her and I see the lifelong implications of filing for anything in different levels of seriousness. For her, it's a fresh start with a chance to live on her own in an apartment and 'our D will be okay'. For me, it's a sharp decrease in my D's quality of life and potentially not having a safe roof over her head. We live in a city where renters are often booted out in order to sell land to developers and one of the primary reasons we took on the financial stress of buying a home was to mitigate this worry.

I realize that my reminders about our commitment to MC were overbearing. The broken commitments in our relationship are frequent but never get any easier, regardless of how small they are. They are certainly a trigger for my stress. The MC last Friday discussed our options in a way of finding compromise. We chose to separate, co-parent, and avoid black-and-white discussions about reconciliation/divorce and rather focus on the day-to-day feelings. I hold no expectations for what will come in the next three weeks. I have my preferences, but I accept anything that comes my way.

Originally Posted by Steve85
I'd never excuse EAs and PAs, but I do have to wonder how much of her EAs and PAs are due to you being overbearing. As if she is rebelling against the control you try to exert. I saw this dynamic in my own sitch, as I was pretty controlling, and would let me frustrations and displeasure be known when her choices didn't match up to the choices I wanted her to make. Even on this point, I see avoidance from you on taking responsibility. You blame her promiscuity solely on her "trauma", while there are clear signs that there is more at play there than just merely her being driven by her past trauma.


Me being overbearing tends to come in times of stress and conflict. The lead-up to the EA or PA in the past has generally been a period of contentment (perhaps to the point of boredom/complacency). My W has often said she 'sabotages her happiness'. Whenever we are approaching a point where we both are being vulnerable and comfortable with each other, major drama takes place (for lack of a better catch-all).

She has said in hindsight that she has come to a few conclusions about the EA/PA:

1. She does not like to call them a sex/love addiction. Our MC suggested to call them coping mechanisms to trauma. To me it was semantics but I understand now how the negative connotation of addiction made her feel inferior (broken) to me as a person.
2. Part of her acting out in the first year of our marriage was driven by jealousy that I was more sexually active than her during my college years.
3. The most recent EA was a choice she made rather than being driven by a compulsion - she was made about the 'lashing out' I mentioned above, and personally transformed a platonic friendship into an inappropriate EA.
4. She feels that her relationship between physical sex and emotional love is severely damaged and physical sex instills some fear in her about emotional love and being vulnerable in this sense.

Originally Posted by Steve85
Third, I mentioned lots of mistakes. lumis, you have an opportunity for huge 180s here. Sure you can 180 on your being an absent father. And being verbally abusive. Those were two things I had to 180 on too. But you can also 180 on your ethics and morals. "Shared OW?" Reaching out to someone online? Presenting polyamory to her as an option based on that EA? lumis, do you have a moral compass at all? Do you have a real understanding of what it means to commit to someone in a marriage, forsaking all others? You say she was a minister's daughter, and her parents seem to be somewhat involved in her life. Have you ever reached out to them for moral guidance? Or anyone for that matter?


Please understand that I am in a very different position on a lot of these actions. These are stupid mistakes of my past that were not worth the short bursts of perceived fun/excitement. I would never judge people that live in these arrangements successfully as I believe to each their own, but they are not for me.

Originally Posted by Steve85
You are reading DR. Good. Start implementing it. That means you are going to have to take bold steps. First, GAL. When you aren't parenting you are busy. And this doesn't involve OW!! It involves you being with other males, doing manly things. I don't care if it is merely bowling, the fact is you need male companionship that has nothing to do with love and sex.


I have no interest in OW right now. Of course the thought of 'how will I date in my 30's?' has arisen... but it is firmly on the rearmost back-burner right now. I am struggling to come up with ideas of how to spend my time but I am reaching out to friends and family constantly to try to avoid moping or just sitting around. A big difficulty has been the fact that friends are busy with their own lives.

Even while parenting, finding things to do has been a challenge given nap-time, financial struggle, etc. Going on walks, inviting my parents over for a 'grandparent day', and going to church (it's been a while but I have never lost my faith) are all things I've accomplished in the last couple of weeks.

Originally Posted by Steve85
Second, you need to detach from her. This means you try to exert ZERO control over her. You remove all pressure and pursuit. You give her space and time to figure her own stuff out. You LET HER GO TO GET HER BACK! And finally, work on you. 180s all around. Get into church if you have any inclination along those lines and try to find some type of a moral compass to your life. You are not an animal. You can control your impulses!!


Day to day, there *is* improvement here. Went to church on Sunday with my D and it was a very emotional yet positive experience. In the daycare/Sunday school, a little boy tripped and cried. My D gave him her stuffed kitty and hugged him until he calmed down. I'm tearing up just typing this and I will never, ever forget this memory we made. I know I am not an animal and stupid decisions made in the past were out of ignorance or thrill-seeking (or even distraction) rather than some primal 'need'.

Originally Posted by Steve85
Final 2x4:

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While she was here, I made a point to mention that when she specifically says things in front of me like "[D's name], I missed you so so much", that it was hurtful because she intentionally tries to make a grand show of the fact that she's not saying these things to me.


What in the world is that!?! You say you are partway through DR. What part of the book advocates this type of pressure? How does this align with detachment? Could this scream desperation and being completely pathetic more?? (I'll answer that last one: NO!!!) You have to man up and command respect. And this ain't it. Everything isn't about you. You said: "I have always considered myself a fairly mature person". Really? Because the above quote shows a total lack of maturity. I mean, being jealous of your own child's relationship with their mother?!?! Really?


I am not jealous of the relationship between my D and my W. It is simply hurtful to watch my W take extra steps to seemingly convince herself of what she is doing. For example, the day she left with my D, she changed her address. Last night after moving her things out of the home, she made the effort to remove the line 'proud wife' from one of her social media accounts headlines. She's certainly not feeling like a 'proud wife' right now so I get it. I'm learning. You are right and this is a total (and well-deserved) 2x4 to me.

Originally Posted by Steve85
Lumis, I sure hope your W isn't the only one lying to her IC..............


I pour it all out at IC, but sometimes it is difficult to focus on a specific point. I do not lie to my IC but perhaps just have trouble showing the IC what I need to work on. I internalize a LOT and forming my feelings into actual words is challenging for me.

Originally Posted by petri
Lumis. You are doing everything I did. Well I was not jealous to my kids for having a mother who misses them. But everything else. Pressure to get to therapy, play the victim card etc. Dude. This is a loooooong run. You have to realize that this isn't about her. This is about you. It took me a long time to understand that. And still after 2 years I see myself asking "am I really doing this for me or her". Like Steve said LET HER GO TO GET HER BACK. It took me too long to do that the right way. You need to get to your head that you are not the victim and you need to stop acting like one.

Be the best dad ever and become the better version of you. I was told today about my XW that she has to work on herself. We cannot cure them. It is not our duty to pull them out of the deep end. Like Neffer always posts: be the lighthouse

You got this buddy. Just try to calm down. It's hard, we all know it. But it's the only thing you can do.


Thank you for this. It is difficult to hear, but I appreciate the insight. Again, to clarify - I'm not jealous of my D and W's closeness... it's just the over-the-top performance she puts on in times of conflict. It is like she is trying to convince herself of something and just feels like such an act. I can weather that storm, but it was just so fresh I had a moment of weakness that came out.

Originally Posted by CWarrior
Wow! You and your wife have seen a lot and have a ton to overcome. I hope you find this a safe place to work on you, and you ultimately emerge as a happier person and father.

...

This is one of many places where you try to control your wife. Toning this down would be a great 180. You control you, she controls her. You CAN set boundaries to protect yourself without being controlling. There's a whole thread on that topic Cadet doubtless linked to above. For example, if "When she makes a grand show of missing her daughter (but not you), you hurt, so you will walk to another room." If you decide upon that boundary, there's no need to communicate it, because the boundary is for you and not her.


I think one of the big challenges is that our MC has been on the other side of this - explicitly telling us to state 'what you did here hurt me' when we feel hurt.

I should note that when I posted '...it was hurtful because she intentionally tries to make a grand show of the fact that she's not saying these things to me' that what I *SAID* was simply that her actions were hurtful to me. I did not say the second half, I kept those feelings inside. Silver lining, not the goal, and still a ton of hard work to go... but after re-reading my post I realized my words were not quite the same as what I posted.
Posted By: petri Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 07/29/19 06:54 PM
Lumis. Maybe it came out little harsh on the jealousy part about the kids. Maybe. You need to really take a deep look inside of you. I know. Things are just happening and you are hurting. But you need to keep your cool. Do some soul searching now. Think of every single thing that you did wrong. Then start your 180's. You really need to be honest with yourself on this otherwise it won't work. Our shadows are not a nice place to dig in. Keep us posted buddy!
Posted By: SteveLW Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 07/29/19 07:18 PM
Originally Posted by petri
Lumis. Maybe it came out little harsh on the jealousy part about the kids. Maybe. You need to really take a deep look inside of you. I know. Things are just happening and you are hurting. But you need to keep your cool. Do some soul searching now. Think of every single thing that you did wrong. Then start your 180's. You really need to be honest with yourself on this otherwise it won't work. Our shadows are not a nice place to dig in. Keep us posted buddy!


petri, thank you. I was struggling on how to respond to lumis' latest post.I am still detecting quite a bit of responsibility avoidance. petri, nailed it lumis. You have to be honest with yourself, or you will never be able to be honest with anyone else (IC included).
Posted By: petri Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 07/29/19 07:31 PM
Steve. I agree but Lumis is early on in this. Honesty is the key to everything.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 07/29/19 07:41 PM
Originally Posted by petri
Steve. I agree but Lumis is early on in this. Honesty is the key to everything.


I agree 100%. Maybe I worded my agreement poorly.
Posted By: lumis70 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 07/29/19 10:38 PM
Originally Posted by petri
Lumis. Maybe it came out little harsh on the jealousy part about the kids. Maybe. You need to really take a deep look inside of you. I know. Things are just happening and you are hurting. But you need to keep your cool. Do some soul searching now. Think of every single thing that you did wrong. Then start your 180's. You really need to be honest with yourself on this otherwise it won't work. Our shadows are not a nice place to dig in. Keep us posted buddy!


Originally Posted by Steve85
...I am still detecting quite a bit of responsibility avoidance. petri, nailed it lumis. You have to be honest with yourself, or you will never be able to be honest with anyone else (IC included).


I understand fully that I have quite a bit of responsibility in my current state of affairs. I'll just throw some thoughts out from the past weeks (especially during my 2 weeks of separation prior). I realize these are not behaviors that are immediately better overnight... but I am working on myself.

1. Understanding my W's feelings, for one, was not something that I had a mature understanding of how to do (while at the same time being overconfident in thinking I did). Old way of thinking would be something like:

W: I feel like you're mad at me.
Me: I'm not mad at you.

I was trying to 'fix' the issue but to my W, I was simply brushing her feelings aside as 'wrong' or unimportant. In the three weeks that my W was back home, I started to think differently and use mirroring techniques, etc.

W: I feel like you're mad at me.
Me: I understand that you feel like I'm mad, could you tell me why you're feeling that way?
W: (explains further... sometimes - other times, she shows anger/rage/frustration at even being asked to say anything more about her feelings)
Me: That makes total sense; if I let you down like that, I would likely expect you to be mad or frustrated with me as well.

And my god... she noticed. The thing that was weird was the part I mentioned in my original post - she told me that it felt fake, that I seemed like a totally different person than who she left, etc. For me, it felt totally natural as long as I'd catch myself at the very start and not dive right into 'fix-it' mode. I asked her if these changes she noticed in me were positive (side note - I hadn't read the rules yet at this point!) and she said 'yeah... I guess' but clearly didn't trust my behavior.

2. I had a wandering eye for other women for a long time, and was stubborn in changing this behavior. This was a vicious cycle - at times, she would agree and happily talk about other women with me. Other times, she would get very upset. VERY rarely, she would calmly say 'I don't really feel comfortable talking like this at the moment, it is making me self-conscious'. Other times, she would be the one that threw a comment out about another woman first!

Even in the three weeks that she had returned home, she initiated a comment on another woman a few times. One of the commitments I made when she returned was to not continue with any of this behavior, ever... so my reply to her was simply 'I don't say things like that anymore'.

She even brought up the topic of adding another woman to the bedroom while she was home over the 3 week time-frame despite venting total disgust at the idea of our past activities less than a week prior in MC. My response was simply 'we don't need things like that in our lives any longer - the things we did were not worth how they hurt us.'

This is not the only behavior I have that received mixed signals on a regular basis... but it is likely the most damaging. Pornography is also something I have received severely mixed signals about.

3. I did things that would be considered taking my family for granted such as coming home, and going to work in the garage for an hour or longer before coming in to say hello or seeing if the W needed any relief from childcare. This one goes hand-in-hand with #4:

4. I really had a tough time with childcare over the first 12-18 months. I was scared and I felt as if she took to it so naturally. She woke up EVERY night for the first year to breastfeed our child. I did at times offer to feed our D using pumped milk, but her response was usually 'well I'd have to wake up to pump anyhow to keep up production... so what's the point?'.

I would also at times completely tune out, play video games, etc. while she was dealing with a crying baby at bedtime or bath time. This was absolutely not an every night occurrence but I know for a fact it is being viewed as such, right now.

Her pregnancy was really rough - vomiting nightly, waking up choking on vomit and stomach acid, etc. I tried to be present and there for her, but I should have done more... even if it was only sitting next to her more often while she was sick. I was going through my own battle with depression at the time but it wasn't an excuse... we we're both scared and hadn't been through that situation before.

I feel as if I've stepped up sincerely in child care, but to this she's basically voiced 'too little, too late' and even implied that this was one reason she felt comfortable with the BD and leaving now that I could care for my D on my own.

I feel awful that I learned how to be a father so slowly.

5. We have experienced a sharp decline in quality time with each other since our D arrived. I take some responsibility for this as I know this is truly what makes her feel loved, but I didn't realize that it had been so absent for us over the last 2 years. We still watched TV in the evenings, but what we did prior to our D being born was to go out to dinner or happy hour, look each other in the eyes, and actually communicate one on one.

Those are probably the top 5 I can think of. I'm trying to focus my 180 work on long-term behaviors more than one-off situations (such as laying into her during the second meltdown I had). She certainly holds that against me, but it's hard to do a 180 on something that seems so foreign to my usual behavior.

I regret what I said that night and apologized like 6 hours later the next morning (and dozens of times since)... but I certainly couldn't turn back the clock. The only thing I could promise from then on was to not drop off the medications (to prevent ever having to go through the hell of going back on them at some point). Is my mental state in that moment (or the medications) a scapegoat? I'm not trying to make it into that - the actions were mine... I've just never felt so out of control as I did while I saying those things to her.
Posted By: lumis70 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 07/30/19 03:35 AM
Okay, so I'm up to step 3 in DR and having some difficulties with my goals from step 2. I started with a list of three things that I wanted, and then the further I read, the more I felt as if the goals I set were too short-sighted. I've now gone through three lists and would love to get some brutally honest feedback on where I'm at.

First attempt:

1. I want to learn to understand my W better and genuinely show her that I do care about her feelings in the way she needs, rather than the way I would need.
2. I want to find ways to spend more quality time together on a regular basis.
3. I was to put my family first, always, and stop getting distracted by hobbies or other escapes or detractors from what is really important to me.

I read a little further, and refined it to this (and added a few):

1. I want to understand my W better.
2. I want to create more opportunities to spend quality time together.
3. I want to maintain an honest and open relationship with each other.
4. I want to forgive each other for our imperfections and not hold on to the past.
5. I want us to be focused on each other and avoid distractions and unhealthy escapes.
6. I want to raise our child together as a committed team.
7. I want my W to come home when she is ready to work on our issues together.

Felt pretty good at this point, and then read a little further in. I realized that first, I needed to trim it down to 3... and second, I needed to look at the immediate concerns as well as the BIG long-standing issues.

1. I want my W to believe that our marriage is worth salvaging and show me through her actions.

My baby steps will be to see this through proactive affection (verbal or physical) when we exchange our D, or simple proactive text messages asking how I am doing, and so forth. Granted, these are not necessarily signs of moving towards goal #1, they are likely the first steps. This first goal was the toughest to identify the baby steps for me because without being a mind-reader, I need to go off my W's current and past behaviors entirely (and still only believe 50% of them).

2. I want to be forgiven for my past mistakes and for my W to let go of the pain from the past.

The actions that will show this are reduced dwelling on negative past memories. Not hearing 'I've been lonely for years', 'I don't even know why I married you', etc. Hearing even a single positive memory would be a big one.

3. I want my W to honor our commitments to me, no matter how large or small.

The best I can hope for in the near future is no further talk of skipping out of MC. We have three scheduled sessions left (maybe we will continue, maybe not... I can't see the future) and for her to attend all three without complaint would certainly honor a very small commitment that we made to each other and our family.

Step 3 will actually be fairly straightforward - I think the safest place to communicate these will be in MC this week (Friday).

If I'm way off-target here, please call me out. I'm still learning...
Posted By: petri Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 07/30/19 06:55 AM
That is a good start. I would recommend for you to make action or behavior goals. I.e. how are you going to achieve those golas that you listed, what do YOU need to do. Your goals need to be about you, what you can do. Not what you want your W to do.

And I did not see the controlling part in your "fault" list...honestyhonestyhonesty. There is no way around it.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 07/30/19 12:06 PM
lumis, go back and read those 3 again. I am feeling more desire to control...HER.

Those 3 are what you want FROM HER. This is focusing on her, not on yourself.

And while those are nice things to want, you have no way to make those things happen. When will she show you she values the marriage? When will she forgive you? When will she honor her commitments to you? That is an easy answer: When SHE decides to do it.

So what do you do in the meantime? That is where you need to focus. What ACTIONS are you going to take? Petri nailed it (just read his response).

Lumis, you need to take a step back, take a deep breath, and come to a realization that you have no control over her. You get to control one person in this life: YOU. So step back from the way you've approached this in the past and realize that your way forward has to be self-focused. You have to view it as if she is gone and NOT coming back. This is why you go out and double-down on GAL. This is why work hard to detach from her (read the detachment thread, this one is important). This is why you identify your poor behavior, 180 on those, and really use this gift you've been given to improve yourself!

Sometimes, the side-effect of GAL, detachment and 180s is you attract your WAW back. But that isn't the goal, nor the focus. The goal is to save yourself. The focus on what you need to do to be the best lumis you can be. The harder you try to control her, to try to save the MR, the more it will slip through your fingers.
Posted By: petri Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 07/30/19 01:45 PM
Originally Posted by Steve85

Lumis, you need to take a step back, take a deep breath, and come to a realization that you have no control over her. You get to control one person in this life: YOU. So step back from the way you've approached this in the past and realize that your way forward has to be self-focused. You have to view it as if she is gone and NOT coming back. This is why you go out and double-down on GAL. This is why work hard to detach from her (read the detachment thread, this one is important). This is why you identify your poor behavior, 180 on those, and really use this gift you've been given to improve yourself.


Lumis. This right here is your first goal. Your first baby step. Steve is one of THE TOP MEN here. If he says something, you need to listen. You could also do some further reading on Nice Guy Syndrome. Something about this is telling me to bring this up. Not sure but it won't hurt either.
Posted By: lumis70 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 07/30/19 06:56 PM
Originally Posted by petri
Your goals need to be about you, what you can do. Not what you want your W to do.


I cannot post copyrighted text, but a review of step 2 in the book definitely gives examples stating things like 'I want my W to come home by so-and-so month' or 'I want my W to put effort into salvaging our marriage'. I having a lot of difficulty understanding this and not because I am trying to control the situation or my W... rather the book and the advice being given here seem to be in opposition. I'm not here to argue - I'm here to learn... but I'll definitely ask questions when things don't make sense to me.

You'll notice as I refined my list, I drifted AWAY from things I could change myself and into the realm of what I truly wanted in my marriage. This seemed to be exactly what DR was guiding me to do and I was absolutely not doing this in an attempt to control the situation (I am simply stating my wants and the small signs that will tell me they could be coming, not stating how I am going to get them).

My first attempt at the list was much better for short-term self-improvement goals - but isn't step 2 all about defining the BIG goals that you strive for to create a potentially encouraging path to follow (avoiding nebulous adjectives and finding milestones or even mile-'pebbles' to look for)?

Step 3 talks about how to communicate these wants with the W. In other words, step 3 seems to be about learning to be assertive. I stopped midway through step 3 as I really wanted to discuss step 2-3 on here, first.

(Given the responses on here, I strongly suspect that the latter half of step 3 or further steps will focus on teaching me that despite me wanting my goals in step 2, I'll be working on myself and learning that whether or not goals of step 2 are accomplished... it doesn't matter in the end).

Originally Posted by petri
And I did not see the controlling part in your "fault" list...honestyhonestyhonesty. There is no way around it.


My anxiety reflex is to try to control the situation and make it more predictable. Generally speaking, I really don't feel as if I'm very controlling when things are calm. I go to work, don't have a constant need to know where my W was, what she was doing, etc. Last minute major changes to schedules, unexpected changes at home, etc. are what trigger my anxiety which then turns into damage mitigation (i.e. try to gain some control). My attempts to control things are directly proportional to stress - for example:

Scenario 1 - W rearranges a room in the home while I'm working. When I get home, this surprise causes a little stress to me and might ask her kindly to just give me a heads-up so it's less of a surprise to me next time. A simple text from her stating 'I'm rearranging this room today' would have me replying 'great! I can't wait to see what you do with it when I get home!'. In either case, I have zero desire to move things back to the way they were previously, but if I had to do some soul-searching, I'd say I'm probably a little scarred from surprises in general.

Scenario 2 - I come home and W and D are gone. E-mail in my inbox stating the marriage is over and everything I thought I knew when I left for work that morning was wrong. Full-blown control the situation mode. This is where I need serious work. I don't think anyone in this situation would be sitting there immediately saying 'this is fine... no matter how it turns out, I'll be fine', but I obviously can find great improvement in this area.

So yes - my desire to control the situation rather than simply control myself under stress is definitely a fault of mine! I absolutely do NOT deny that. In college, I would often get a ton of coursework dumped on me all at one time. This caused me a great deal of anxiety until I sat down for 15 minutes and created a schedule. Is that type of behavior unhealthy? If not, where is the line?

Originally Posted by Steve85
lumis, go back and read those 3 again. I am feeling more desire to control...HER.

Those 3 are what you want FROM HER. This is focusing on her, not on yourself.

And while those are nice things to want, you have no way to make those things happen. When will she show you she values the marriage? When will she forgive you? When will she honor her commitments to you? That is an easy answer: When SHE decides to do it.


I want to clarify something here. Are you recommending things that I will be covering as I continue the DR steps as I briefly mentioned earlier? I strongly suspect that the book will be guiding me in the same direction that you are, but I am only in step 2-3 in my reading. I am going into this with a step 1 mind-set by taking it extremely slow and making sure I'm understanding the purpose of each step. In that sense, I firmly believe my goals align with step 2 of DR. I'm still building my 'foundation' here - it sounds like your recommendations are the 'framing' that may soon follow in step 4+.

Originally Posted by Steve85
You have to view it as if she is gone and NOT coming back. This is why you go out and double-down on GAL. This is why work hard to detach from her (read the detachment thread, this one is important). This is why you identify your poor behavior, 180 on those, and really use this gift you've been given to improve yourself!


I struggle here. She is predominately absent in my day-by-day view of life right now. She did text me first thing this morning with a picture of my D and we exchanged a few polite words 'how did you sleep? etc.'; it is strange because she initiates the contact, and then has a cold or no reply. It's almost like bait for me to slip and say something dumb but I've been doing a better job of NOT doing anything of the sort (avoiding ALL relationship talk, saying 'I miss my family', or anything of the sort).

I am trying to avoid thinking of the black/white end-results of 'she will come back and reconcile' or 'she will file for divorce' and simply exist in the moment. The jarring surprise of waking up, rolling over and putting my arm around nothing is absolutely an rotten feeling, but acceptance as the day goes on is easier.

Originally Posted by petri
Lumis. This right here is your first goal. Your first baby step. Steve is one of THE TOP MEN here. If he says something, you need to listen. You could also do some further reading on Nice Guy Syndrome. Something about this is telling me to bring this up. Not sure but it won't hurt either.


I've been in the friend-zone before but Nice Guy Syndrome certainly doesn't ring-true to me. I am feeling pain at a broken, freely-given commitment - not some unspoken contract that weighs 8 years of our actions against each other. We don't owe each other anything.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 07/30/19 07:08 PM
lumis, perhaps you are right. It has been a while since I read the book. I am guessing that this is MWD's section for getting out what you want from your marriage and W, before she turns to having the reader take a long look at themselves. So I will give you a pass on this for now. It was just after reading your first few posts, and then seeing this list, it appeared that you were still in a "I must control her" mindset. We all struggle with that mindset at first. So some of us are quick to jump on that.

Quote
I struggle here. She is predominately absent in my day-by-day view of life right now. She did text me first thing this morning with a picture of my D and we exchanged a few polite words 'how did you sleep? etc.'; it is strange because she initiates the contact, and then has a cold or no reply. It's almost like bait for me to slip and say something dumb but I've been doing a better job of NOT doing anything of the sort (avoiding ALL relationship talk, saying 'I miss my family', or anything of the sort).

I am trying to avoid thinking of the black/white end-results of 'she will come back and reconcile' or 'she will file for divorce' and simply exist in the moment. The jarring surprise of waking up, rolling over and putting my arm around nothing is absolutely an rotten feeling, but acceptance as the day goes on is easier.


The general rule should be for you to NOT respond unless it is a direct question. And then answer in as few words as possible. Yes or no questions get yes or no answers. More than likely she is keeping you on the hook (thus the contact initiating but then going cold or no reply) because you make her feel safe as her back-up plan. We refer to as being Plan B. No one wants to be Plan B. So don't be. Sometimes removing yourself as Plan B will get the WAW to consider moving you back p to Plan A....just don't count on it. NO EXPECTATIONS!

I like the attitude of living in the moment. That is good. But you still need to account for what you do each moment. Stay busy. The posters that struggle the most are the ones that sit idly and stew. Read a poster named OrangeK's threads and you will see a bad example of this. Guy had a million excuses for not GAL and to this day he still suffers from over attachment to his now exwife. Doing the work we suggest will prepare you well for the next phase of your life, whether that means your MR ends or not. Detachment becomes easier if you stay busy. So get out there and GAL!
Originally Posted by lumis70
I cannot post copyrighted text


You can if it's out of Michele's books. These are her forums smile

Quote
but a review of step 2 in the book definitely gives examples stating things like 'I want my W to come home by so-and-so month' or 'I want my W to put effort into salvaging our marriage'. I having a lot of difficulty understanding this and not because I am trying to control the situation or my W... rather the book and the advice being given here seem to be in opposition. I'm not here to argue - I'm here to learn... but I'll definitely ask questions when things don't make sense to me.


We all want those things and set those things as goals early on. Unfortunately those are things we have zero control over. Our personal goals really need to be over what we CAN control, such as weight loss, improving appearance, learning something new, volunteering, eating better, exercising, improving our parenting skills, picking up a new hobby, etc. THOSE things can and will eventually affect our WAS's perception of us and hopefully lead to them wanting to come home, or wanting to salvage the marriage. So the book versus the advice here is not necessarily in opposition, it's just a clarification of how you get there.

Quote
You'll notice as I refined my list, I drifted AWAY from things I could change myself and into the realm of what I truly wanted in my marriage. This seemed to be exactly what DR was guiding me to do and I was absolutely not doing this in an attempt to control the situation (I am simply stating my wants and the small signs that will tell me they could be coming, not stating how I am going to get them).


And I think that's fine. Perhaps it would help to come up with a list of personal goals, and a list of what you hope those goals will achieve. The former you can directly control, the latter you cannot -control- but you can -influence- via the first list. Make sense?

Quote
Step 3 talks about how to communicate these wants with the W. In other words, step 3 seems to be about learning to be assertive. I stopped midway through step 3 as I really wanted to discuss step 2-3 on here, first.


You communicate through actions, not words. WAS's feel like the LBS has been giving them lip service for months or years but not following through. So if you hit her up with a list of your changes, she's not going to believe it. Even when you start showing her changes she won't believe it's real. She may even get angry, saying it's "too little too late" or such. You have to stick with your changes over a long period of time before she'll really believe it.
Posted By: lumis70 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 07/30/19 10:10 PM
Okay, real talk for a moment... and stick with this one to the end - the middle of last week my W borrowed $100 in order to buy supplies for her job. She promised to pay it back that evening. She didn't, but I didn't push the issue as she was spending time over the weekend with her friends and then there was the planned move-out on Sunday evening.

I asked her about it last night via text message and she stated she would transfer it over that evening... and didn't. Mentioned it this morning between the other texts she sent and she just avoided the topic entirely.

Over my lunch, I said "[I'm] on lunch and was gonna go to the bank, can you complete that transfer so I can put the cash you borrowed back?"

I'm not trying to hound her here, it's just that the cash she was given was actually set aside to cover a large bill that is going to be sitting in my lap any day now (she was aware of this when she asked for the cash).

She replied:

"Hey honey! Sorry I wasn't ignoring you. I had my phone charging upstairs. [long explanation about money and options for getting it to me] Let me know."

Then:

"I'm sorry I haven't texted much I've just been in such a funk. Trying to just process life."

So this probably wouldn't be a red-flag for anyone else... but this is not at all how my wife normally talks. These texts are... weird to me.

I did not mention it in my first post, but when my wife left and subsequently returned at the end of the polyamory stuff (when she had two EA), she confided in me that she was glad she returned, had planned to take her own life, and was trying to cut ties beforehand by leaving me. The way that departure took place was her leaving me over text message as my plane touched down after a two-week business trip in Asia (very impersonal, out of the blue, etc. - similar to e-mailing me earlier in June).

I have later brought this confession up to her and she claims to not remember it. I've never forgotten - she seemed dead serious when she told me in tears.

She has been known to self-harm, but to the best of my knowledge, she has never made an attempt on her own life. The text regarding the 'funk' and 'processing life' is nagging me and I really do not know if I should take any action here. She will be dropping our D off at our home this evening, and then she will be alone or with her parents for two nights.

I am absolutely not trying to control her, but my radar of something being 'off' is going crazy after reading that, and frankly, it worries me - what is a reasonable course of action here? Maybe a text to her father (the more level-headed of the parents) stating 'please ensure [W's name] has support on days when our D is with me and she is alone - I am worried about her and hope I'm worried about nothing'?
Posted By: Traveler Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 07/30/19 10:35 PM
Wolf, if your alarm bells are going off and you feel her dad may take you seriously, I would. For me, saving a life trumps getting a spouse back, and a suicidal spouse can be a danger to your child.

After I D'd my ex-wife, she went off meds. Her doctor called me sometimes to keep tabs. While I wasn't my ex-wife's keeper, I also had some interest in not seeing her spiral too far.

I kept the alternative of CPS and taking full custody in mind.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 07/30/19 10:37 PM
lumis, I've dealt with suicide and attempted suicide. Here's the thing, if someone wants to take their own life or try to, they are going to do it. Nothing you can do to stop it. However, I will say that this is you focusing on her, again. And this is you trying to control what you can't control, again.

So just consider that before acting. Remember, you've been fired as her husband. Be a father now, to your child. She's not your responsibility.
Posted By: lumis70 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 07/30/19 11:45 PM
Originally Posted by Steve85
lumis, I've dealt with suicide and attempted suicide. Here's the thing, if someone wants to take their own life or try to, they are going to do it. Nothing you can do to stop it. However, I will say that this is you focusing on her, again. And this is you trying to control what you can't control, again.

So just consider that before acting. Remember, you've been fired as her husband. Be a father now, to your child. She's not your responsibility.


I fully agree with you re: if someone wants to do it, they'll do it. I have personally dealt with the suicide of three friends in my life... thankfully none too close to me, but I digress. It's never easy.

I will hold tight for now - I wanted to wait for a few replies to let some of the stress settle for me, and it has. I still have some concern, but I'll just remain vigilant for any other red flags before contacting her father. She is not my responsibility, but I obviously still care. If the worst possible thing happened at this point and I hadn't even fired a text off to her father, I know I would have a hard time with it.

Thank you for the replies on this. If any further alarms start ringing, her dad would absolutely take me seriously and would likely keep it in confidence.
Posted By: lumis70 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/02/19 10:57 PM
Got back into the DR book and realized that if I had read 2 paragraphs further, my questions would have been answered there. Michele essentially says that if you're already separated, steps 1-3 are for future reference and shouldn't really necessarily be applied as they could add fuel to the fire.

W has been back and forth over the last few days over text. I have been letting her make the majority of the effort with regards to contact while I've been spending time with friends and just trying to not stress about the future.

A friend's W told me something (or rather a couple of things) that made a lot of sense - my W is someone who is balling all her stress and negativity up right now and using me as a scapegoat (or a punching bag), which forces her to push me away. When she is alone and her problems still exist, she seeks to pull me back to avoid dealing with them. She also explained that she saw me as a 'fixer' who would continue to work on a project, even if it never had an end. She has a background in psychology and these were certainly things I've been putting thought into over the last few days.

Went to counseling today. We were somewhat all over the place, but we began by me venting my frustrations that my W has left me with a few major responsibilities, such as her cat, without asking if I would be willing to take care of them for her during this separation. After that, I brought up more frustrations that she has defined a child care schedule that she wants to stick to... until she wants a long weekend and tries to change it last minute (calling it a compromise). Makes it really difficult to GAL though I'm getting better at getting out with my D and just GAL through parenting time.

We also talked quite a bit about my empathy (one of my weaker skills), her frustrations with me during her pregnancy, etc. It was something of a rocky one, today.

I've calmed down quite a bit and I'm trying to take it day-by-day. I am focusing on what I have and remaining as positive about it as possible, while trying to avoid thinking about what is missing and making myself miserable.
Posted By: lumis70 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/05/19 10:54 PM
I've had a few good days over the weekend followed by a pretty rough morning.

August 3rd was my D's birthday and my W and I agreed to do a family day for her. My W was somewhat physical, off and on, throughout the day. Her mood was up and down also. She indicated that for the third week in a row, she was having lady issues for the third time back-to-back... to say she has issues with hormonal birth control is a serious understatement. Not a scapegoat, but it would be naive to pretend her mood was not being affected. The day was tense, but overall positive. I have been very good at ONLY reciprocating the 'I miss you' and 'I love you' statements rather than saying them first. Physical touch, I'm still working on it - she is making it challenging as she initiates, then at a certain point will say 'okay, this is feeling weird'. Trying my best to follow the last resort techniques but I'm hitting so many challenges (i.e. if she says 'I love you', I am returning it... I assume that is okay?).

Sunday, I had my D all day. We started off the morning with church, followed by a day trip to a local event at a racetrack. My D was a little tired and it was pretty warm, but we had a good time! We picked up some groceries on the way home, then she napped until my W arrived to pick her up. My W hung out a bit and seemed fairly level-headed. At one point, she asked if I would like a kiss and I told her I certainly wouldn't turn it down. Her and my D left, and she said 'we love you!' as she was leaving. I almost skipped the

Through all of this, I have been texting minimally - sticking to replies or *maybe* one text a day. I asked her on Sunday morning if she had blocked me from her shared calendar as it had disappeared from my phone. She said she did, but not for a specific reason other than to have more space. I said it was fine, and that I had no issues with it... just that I had relied on her schedule to see things like my D's doctor appointments, etc. I was very reassuring to her that it was not a problem and I was only checking to see if it had the sharing permissions revoked by mistake.

She texted in the evening on Sunday stating that my D was having a tough time sleeping, stressing her out, and that my W's mother was also stressing her out by offering unsolicited parenting advice. I told her I was sorry, and 'other than reminding you you're a good mother and can come home whenever you're ready, I don't know how I can help'. She thanked me.

Today, I went to work as normal and went back home for lunch. My W asked over text how my day was in the morning, and I just mentioned that work stress was pretty high today. While I was home for lunch, my W randomly showed up looking for a laptop charger and acting extremely angry/aggressive towards me when she couldn't find it. She was raising her voice, yelling, etc. and telling me how bad of a day she was having. I said I was sorry she was stressed and she started grasping at straws on things to throw out:

W: being in this house makes me anxious... I'm jealous you have so much space and I have so little at my parents
Me: you are welcome to return home at any time

W: I came home to console you because I knew you were having a bad day and I f*ed it up
Me: you didn't mess anything up, and I'm glad I was able to see you

W: I don't want to move back in here
Me: I'm not asking you to move back right now...
W: I don't know if I ever will want to move back in here
Me: yes, I understand that

(I had purchased a car over the weekend as my daily driver finally gave up the ghost)
W: you bought yourself this nice new car and you should have bought it while I was still here... I'm so jealous you bought yourself a motorcycle to commute and gave me the old beater!
Me: I discussed the purchase of the motorcycle (a little fuel-efficient scooter...) with you before I purchased it
W: yeah, but you didn't tell me how bad the Civic was...
Me: the Civic got significantly worse with the Summer heat after you started driving it - the plan all along was to replace it, but we were not in a financially stable enough position to do it, and at the time, it was a fully functional car; I also made sure to ask your input on the purchase of the new (to me) Subaru because I felt there was potential that you would be driving it

Me: I'm sorry you're having a bad day, I didn't cause it, and I'd appreciate it if you didn't take our your anger on me
W: (completely yelling at this point) I don't like who I am around you, I never got this mad or raised my voice before I dated you

She threw out a few other go-to things, like I'm manipulating her, she doesn't trust me, etc.

For what it's worth, she always loses her cool, big time, when she loses something around the house. This isn't an excuse for her to treat me like a punching bag. I made multiple attempts to leave the house and go back to work and she just kept saying things like "I'm leaving soon anyhow, so you don't need to go"... and then she'd proceed to keep the argument going. Ultimately, she left mad, saying she didn't even want to go in to work anymore.

Trying to calm myself at work now; I was doing pretty well, and this certainly challenged my mood given I was already dealing with work stress.
Posted By: lumis70 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/06/19 03:52 AM
Meant to say:

I almost skipped the event at the race track but stuck it out in order to GAL. Felt pretty good about Sunday overall, despite getting bored at the event and leaving 40 minutes in. The whole idea of GAL is tough for me because I'm really something of a homebody. Before I was married, I spent a lot of time with friends, even just sitting around their home. Now, most of them are married or have kids or are just too busy with life. Beyond that, I'd go out for dinner or happy hour with my W or friends. Trying to really avoid bars and limit myself to a beer or less a night right now so those aren't very appealing ideas at the moment.
Posted By: lumis70 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/12/19 06:27 PM
It's been a week of ups and downs. Last counseling session was Wednesday of last week. The ride there was fairly tense and my W brought up a comment I made 7-8 years ago that was a comment about her nose said in front of friends. It was not intended to be mean, and I had no idea at the time that she was self-conscious about her nose. This became almost the entire topic of the counseling session...

I apologized (and have MANY times before) and the counselor had us do a validation exercise where I told her I understood how saying this years ago reminded her of an ex that cut her down in front of his family often. I voiced frustrations that nothing I've ever said or done is forgiven, but rather stored away in a drawer to be pulled out at a moment's notice. W said this was just an example of how I 'cut her down' all the time. I challenged her to give a more recent example and she came up with nothing.

The homework we were given by the counselor was to essentially have a date night (alone, without our D), though it wasn't necessarily a date night. More like some one-on-one time outside of the home in a neutral place. We have spent time together, but we haven't completed this yet, and the next (8th) counseling session is tomorrow. I'll come back to this.

On Friday, my W was flirting with me over text, sending photos of herself in the bath and implying that she wanted to have sex later that night. When she came over that night (to drop our D off), we put out D to bed, and then she became extremely aggressive/sad/angry/etc. and said that she was still having issues with her monthly cycle, didn't want to do anything physical, etc. It was a BAD night all around and I tried multiple times to dismiss her but she just seemed to want to prolong a fight/argument. Needless to say, nothing happened that evening physically.

The next day (Saturday), we planned on a family outing. She arrived late and I was assuming the worst... but she walked up and gave me a very passionate kiss. In the car on the way to a community swimming pool, she was extremely positive, said her lady issues had calmed down and she was in a better mood. I told her that she seemed like an entirely different person that I hadn't seen in a long time. The day was great, and we ended up having sex that evening. She left to hang out with her recently divorced friend and stayed at her parents house that night.

On Sunday, I bounced the idea off her that she could come hang out before work and she asked for me to pick her up. We hung out a while, things seemed positive, but she said 'I don't want you to think I'm moving back just because we had a good day and had sex', and I reassured her that I was making no assumptions and just taking things as they came. I took her back to her parents a few hours later and suggested trying an overnight again this upcoming week - she replied that she thought it was a good idea. Our one-on-one night was tentatively planned for Monday evening.

Monday morning (today), she comes to pick up our D. She seemed a little more tense and despite hugging me, quickly says that she didn't want to be touched, and said she wasn't excited about our one-on-one time this evening, or our counseling session tomorrow, and that she was pretty sure she knew what she wanted (implying splitting legally). Great way to start my week. I left her alone with my D and left for work. I haven't texted since and I'm having such a rough time with this back-and-forth behavior.
Posted By: Jac12 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/12/19 06:39 PM
My thoughts are this: you seemed to be pursuing a little bit here and it's making her back off a bit. If she isn't entirely sure what she wants she's likely to go negative as a way of not getting your expectations up.

Keep detaching, do your own thing and let her come to you. Let her ask for an overnight, let her ask to hang out before work.

Maybe the vets will chime in with better advice than me.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/12/19 06:57 PM
Ah yes, the roller-coaster ride. "I want you!" "I don't want you!"

I guess I should put this crudely, the way an anti-divorce author (not MWD) put it to me when I had a paid counseling session with her. I mentioned that right after BD my W actually propositioned me one night. When I asked "Really?" she quickly back-peddled. This author said "she is probably horny as crap" but she didn't say crap.

You were a booty-call. Take it for the physical act that it was.

Afterward she was afraid you would think that it meant something so she put the wall back up. "I am not looking forward to one-on-one time....nor MC.....oh and I still want to split up."

The mistake you are making is to believe what she says, and more than half of what she does. KNOCK IT OFF.

Go back to DB principles...believe nothing she says and only half of what she does...and that half doesn't include sex.
Posted By: lumis70 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/12/19 07:23 PM
My reassurances to her are that I am not taking anything at more than face value at the moment. She texted me at work to see if I was doing okay after this morning, and I responded a bit telling her that if she's not feeling this one-on-one thing tonight, that I'm absolutely not pressuring her to do it. Word for word:

"I'm not pressuring you to make any decisions or be uncomfortable if you're not feeling it tonight. The 8 week ultimatum thing was unrealistic in hindsight, there is no rush and I'm taking it day by day."

She replied:

"I think I just felt pressure to have the date before counseling tomorrow but I don't know why"

And I said:

"Then let's postpone! Or not call it a date! Or anything! Our last week has been hills and valleys and that is okay - there is absolutely nothing wrong with not feeling it tonight"

And her:

"Yeah you're right"

So yes, I'm absolutely on the roller coaster of hearing '...if I move back home' and then a day later hearing 'I may never want to be your wife or have sex with you ever again'. I am doing better day-by-day in avoiding the pursuit, but the hot/cold feelings from her make it REALLY easy to slip-up at the exact wrong moment.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/12/19 07:27 PM
Just remember, she has no idea what is going to feel minute to minute.

Remember these words:

When she wants to come back you will know. When she doesn't, you will confused.
Posted By: lumis70 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/12/19 11:09 PM
Originally Posted by Steve85
Just remember, she has no idea what is going to feel minute to minute.

Remember these words:

When she wants to come back you will know. When she doesn't, you will confused.


In my case, I've been confused even when she did come back for three weeks, but I understand what you mean.

She is seeing her OBGYN this Wednesday in an effort to try to find a way of regulating her hormone levels given the roller coaster ride she's been having since the removal of the implant. Clearly, our problems go far beyond this... but coming from my own experiences with anti-depressants - getting your body chemistry sorted is an integral part of the process of being able to process things.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/13/19 12:46 PM
Eh, I am not sure you are putting your "hopes" in the right area. I came to this board (if you read my initial thread) convinced that my marital problems were due to my W's anti-depressants. I was wrong. And the proof is that now she is still on them and our MR is stronger than it has ever been.

What if her body chemistry NEVER "gets sorted"? Body chemistry is a much art as it is science. You can take two people with the same symptoms, give them the same treatment, and get two entirely different results. Couple that with the fact that you have family medicine and general practitioners prescribing the majority of the psych meds today even though that is not where their expertise lies, and you can see that this is further exasperated.

My goal is to see lumis end a post with a paragraph on what HE is doing to IMPROVE HIMSELF. Not putting his hope into something his W is doing that may or may not have any effect on him.
Posted By: lumis70 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/13/19 05:18 PM
Originally Posted by Steve85
Eh, I am not sure you are putting your "hopes" in the right area. I came to this board (if you read my initial thread) convinced that my marital problems were due to my W's anti-depressants. I was wrong. And the proof is that now she is still on them and our MR is stronger than it has ever been.

What if her body chemistry NEVER "gets sorted"? Body chemistry is a much art as it is science. You can take two people with the same symptoms, give them the same treatment, and get two entirely different results. Couple that with the fact that you have family medicine and general practitioners prescribing the majority of the psych meds today even though that is not where their expertise lies, and you can see that this is further exasperated.

My goal is to see lumis end a post with a paragraph on what HE is doing to IMPROVE HIMSELF. Not putting his hope into something his W is doing that may or may not have any effect on him.


Fair enough - I've just felt that it was irresponsible to ignore a few points; I'm not a doctor, but I am a fairly intelligent and educated person, so forgive my analytical mind a moment, then I'll move on:

1. When she was on a natural cycle, one day prior to her period she would have an 'off' day nearly every month, like clockwork. Now, I've dated plenty of women prior to my marriage... the one-day per cycle changes I'm talking about with my W are NOT just PMS but a profound difference in her personality (like a full blown Jekyll/Hyde thing). The weird part is, a day later Jekyll looks back and says 'who the hell was I yesterday' EVERY time, but Hyde doesn't seem to know Jekyll exists, even when things were great a day prior.

Is this a chemical or hormonal imbalance? Mental illness? Who knows... but it is my W, and I accept her regardless. She and I both recognize this as normal, and on a monthly basis we've just dealt with it.

2. Her mood has worsened since receiving the birth control implant following the abortion. When I say worsened, I mean the same Jekyll and Hyde difference, but on a longer term and in a more gradual manner. She has also been tired 24/7, etc. I can't describe in words how large of a difference this is but I can say that I am seeing the same thing noted in the point above becoming the norm. A few red flags that she has thrown up:

"I just want to stop feeling like a crazy person" or "...like I'm going crazy"
"I don't know what's going on with me"

3. Five to six months into the implant her period effectively flipped from being a 7-10 day thing to being nearly the whole month, and significantly more of an impact on her day to day life (worded for brevity... but you get it). This coincided with me discussing with my counselor the 'fog' that I felt over our relationship - I was noticing that something was changing in her mood, but she was being secretive about it so it just felt 'off'. This also coincided with the EA she had online... but I digress. Another red flag at this time:

"I don't know what is going on, but I need to get this implant taken out..." in reference to her not being able to 'get in the mood' when we were being intimate - a problem we have NEVER had in our relationship

4. After she left, we agreed that she would get the implant removed ASAP. She did, and within a week, she returned home and her personality was effectively back to normal... or even an overshoot. This was a total night and day difference - almost to an excessive level; she was talking about renewing our vows, being so in love with me and our family, being happy to be home, bringing her belongings back home and telling me it was a 'forever' move, and even talking about having another child. Yes - believe nothing you hear and half of what you see... but these were legitimate and profound changes in her behavior... and VERY suddenly. I was cautiously optimistic. She looked back and saw the 'Hyde' behavior and acknowledged it saying:

"Feeling like that was making me think I was falling out of love with you - I can't believe how different I feel now"

Again... I'm not a doctor, but I absolutely know the effect of having a maintenance level of a synthetic hormone in your system and suddenly removing it. You end up with a sudden deficit of a hormone/chemical because your body was able to become lazy with production given the synthetic source. Eventually, your body realizes this, and overcompensates in an effort to reach equilibrium. Which brings us to...

5. About two weeks after returning home, she began to express distrust and the same standoffish behavior. This continued to get worse and worse until she moved back to her parents. A day later, her period started. This was a little over three weeks ago and she has effectively had her period three times, back to back, with only a day of downtime between.

Probably not coincidentally, these few downtime days have also been the days when she has done things like walk up and kiss me and say she loves me. The last day like this was Saturday and I told her that it was like a night and day difference from the day prior; that was also the day we had sex. Booty call or not... she was a different person that day, completely.

She talked about going on a low-dose birth control pill around this time to regulate her cycle and I suggested talking to her OBGYN during an appointment she already had booked this week.

So, to respond to your question:

Quote
What if her body chemistry NEVER "gets sorted"? Body chemistry is a much art as it is science. You can take two people with the same symptoms, give them the same treatment, and get two entirely different results.


I am not referring to her anti-depressants with this but rather the fact that she is experiencing physical symptoms of an endocrine system imbalance given her natural cycle is entirely different from the cycle she is experiencing right now. This really seems to tie-in with withdrawal symptoms of a single hormone birth control being suddenly removed from her system. All I can do is encourage her to seek medical assistance for this, and I feel that I have committed this much to her by marrying her. This is not the cause of our issues, but it is likely muddying the waters at the moment. I also cannot deny that the separation had led to me seeking self-improvement, so there may be a silver lining.

If her chemistry never goes back to where it was prior, or if she has simply changed as a person. I will have to accept that she isn't the person she was before and make decisions in the best interest of myself and my D. I'm not fully at that bridge yet; I feel as if my W really is in a state of distress right now. I don't think it's total denial to say that I'd feel more accepting once her physical symptoms (i.e. the constant back-to-back irregular periods) subside.

To improve myself, I am focusing on the following small steps:

1. Practicing empathy and validation in my interactions with everyone.
2. Focusing more attention on my D when I'm caring for her - playing more, narrating her life in an effort to help her speech skills, going on walks with the stroller.
3. Trying to connect with friends more, even if just via text (since they are quite busy).
4. Going to church on Sunday with my D.
5. Visiting with my neighbor in the evenings; he has a newborn and is going through a bit of a rough patch himself. Just a way to keep social.
6. Keeping myself busy in the garage - I'm a bit of a homebody and fairly broke at the moment, so I've just been inventing small, but time-consuming tasks to do such as rebuilding my motorcycle engine, etc.
Posted By: lumis70 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/21/19 05:41 AM
A few updates on life first:

1. Daily commuter died, so I borrowed against a project car to buy a used car. Worked out well in the long run and reduced monthly payments overall. Asked for the W's input on purchase via text 'just in case' she would ever potentially be driving it. Got a manual transmission Outback - I'll come back to this.
2. Basement flooded... again. Different room - total loss of the laminate flooring in the master bedroom. No upside to this one.
3. Got a BIG raise at work - 4-5 years overdue, but generous enough to make me happy.
4. Found out about another $600-800 debt to the government due to my W's mismanagement of business taxes/finances. Verified my name was clear from it given it was a LLC business-related thing.

I felt as if things were going pretty well for the last few days. There were a few hiccups such as an argument where she essentially said I bought the car to try to entice her back, should have bought it sooner, etc. I didn't want to buy it... I had to - she has no vehicle of her own (driving her parents' cars) and the commuter that died was the only child-friendly vehicle I have. Not much to say here... she was mad for the sake of being mad and I just absorbed it.

We had a planned date night last Friday at the suggestion of our counselor. Things were tense in the car and it started off pretty rocky... almost ended before it began. I mentioned that we should find some time for my W to learn how to drive the new car that I recently purchased. She was interested in learning to drive stick, but responded without much enthusiasm. Then I suggested that since we were going to dinner so early, we could grab a drink for happy hour afterwards and she just blew up, saying I was trying to make more plans on the spot, etc. Literally from that point until we got to the restaurant, nothing I said was acceptable... everything just made her mad. I suggested we call off the date and she kept saying she didn't want to as she was looking forward to dining out... then went back to the anger/aggression. I called her out on the fact that I had said nothing that justified the anger, and ultimately we went in and ate - a few bites in and she went from a hangry 9.5/10 to like a 2 or 3. Not the first time that has happened, but the rest of the night went fairly well.

The next day was our weekly family day. She had family plans in the morning and didn't make it over until 2 in the afternoon with our D. It was known in advance and not a problem. D went down for a nap right away and the W suggested using nap time for sex... so we did. Afterward, she said she was tapped out in terms of physical intimacy for the day, but wanted to still hang out with me a while. We ended up having sex again later, and then she left before our D woke up. It was a very positive day, but unlike the first unexpected physical intimacy a week prior, I didn't let myself get carried away thinking it meant she was coming back right away. Baby steps... but if we are connecting physically with each other rather than outside sources, I see this as a good thing.

Started to somewhat 'let go' and just live in the moment. Our communication since then has been very short and to the point, with each of us indicating we missed the other, etc. from time to time. W indicated over text that she wanted to do a family night this Thursday and potentially spend the night (but 'no promises').

Then today rolled around - Tuesday is when my D gets dropped off by the W after work. Our D is now realizing that when my W drops her off at the house, it means my W is leaving shortly after and she has tantrums. This was really a trigger for both my W and I and we definitely got deeper into a relationship talk than we should have. W said she didn't think she wanted to continue the relationship, etc.; all extreme negatives. In hindsight, believe nothing you hear, yeah, yeah... but in the moment and with our D crying about my W leaving soon, we both just really got too emotional. W didn't call off the Thursday family night... but she insinuated that she might; I don't know if it was intended as a threat, her feeling uncomfortable about it after the argument, or what... but it wasn't a fun time.

Her financial situation and plans for the worst-case scenario came up - the best she could offer is that her parents are giving her free rent indefinitely to which I replied: "that doesn't address reliably supporting our child at all". She didn't have a good response other than she had no plans, and said I was trying to tell her she needed to move home because she didn't have any money. I guess I had two goals - I was trying to plant a seed of reality in her head, as it seems like she's trying to avoid reality and responsibility, and I *am* formulating a contingency plan to best serve my D and myself should things go South, and was trying to gauge if she was doing the same.

I've made the decision that should worse come to worse, I will be fighting for full custodial rights but retain 50:50 family time. My D needs her mother, but her mother's financial and moral decisions in the last year alone worry me with regard to any legal decisions regarding our child and her ability to provide reliable care. The inability of my W to ask for help when she is in over her head (financially or otherwise), coupled with the fact that she sent photos of our D to the stranger she had an EA with are some pretty relevant arguing points.

Another more recent one - last weekend (the 10th), she asked to borrow money for drinks with her recently divorced friend - I declined saying I didn't have any extra cash (though it was really because she is so behind on her own income I knew I wouldn't ever see the money back). She proceeded to raid the change jar in the house; the next day I bought shoes for our D using money that was borrowed from my 401(k) as an emergency fund and you better believe I made this point clear to her in a very blunt way.

I hope it doesn't come to a custody fight, but if so, at least I have a loose game plan.

So with regard to the argument today - a step and a half forward and then one back. Guess it's better than the opposite.

Hoping for the best this Thursday evening, but the W has been talking about doing an overnight for two weeks now without actually following through so I'm not holding my breath; just hopeful.

Got to church last Sunday with my D and had a really good day overall. Still working on my motorcycle and trying to think of new ways to GAL. There's a concert later this month I might go to alone and this upcoming weekend I have a friend's bachelor party to attend from Friday through Saturday.
Posted By: lumis70 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/23/19 05:44 AM
Originally Posted by lumis70
Hoping for the best this Thursday evening, but the W has been talking about doing an overnight for two weeks now without actually following through so I'm not holding my breath; just hopeful.


Well... she didn't stick around tonight. Not really surprised but the fact that she keeps saying she wants to stay over, then backing out isn't getting any less hurtful.
Posted By: LH19 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/23/19 10:52 AM
L,

It's not surprising at all. You're putting way too much pressure and getting into arguments with her. Don't try to force reality on her. That will happen on its own. You need to tighten up your game. Have you read DB?
Hi L,

I just read your thread. I recommend going back and reading what Sandi2 posted to you.

You have a lot of work to do on yourself. Stay focused on your personal growth. I believe you need to learn to set boundaries. Your boundaries are weak.


I have more I want to say, but I think that is enough for now.
Posted By: lumis70 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/24/19 01:10 AM
I'm reading and understanding what is being left for me. I'm learning; slowly, but learning.

Today was awful. After last night, I figured it wouldn't be too bad but before counseling, she came over and said that she was done, and was going to make this clear in counseling and would not budge on it. Not the first time this was said... but this was heavy.

I told her that she underestimated how messy this would likely get and she asked what I meant. I said that since she was done, my priority would 100% be on my D, and that I would be petitioning for full custody given my W's actions and decisions over the last year. I made it clear that I still wanted to have 50:50 parenting time. Despite the last bit, this went over as well as expected. In counseling she explained that this was effectively me 'going back to my old ways' and trying to control her. She said this firmed up her decision to end the marriage.

The counselor made some good points about joint custody being beneficial for keeping everyone positive (as much as can be, at least) long-term. I really feel like I messed up big time, today. That said, if one emotionally-fueled statement ended the marriage, I feel as if I would step on a land-mine soon enough in another way, anyhow.

Feeling really down tonight, as much as I could use coaching, any kind words are all I really need at the moment. I'm trying to keep sight on a light at the end of this tunnel but my stomach is in knots and I'm just scared for the uncertainty of the future.

Thank you everyone who has posted, even if it's just to tell me to pull my head out of my butt... I'm trying to maintain a support network but I'm also trying not to be too much of a sad sack to everyone around me.
Posted By: DejaVu6 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/24/19 02:53 PM
Lumis... let her go to (possibly) get her back. It is your only option at this point. Basic human nature...you always want what you can’t have or, at least, what you think is difficult for you to get. You also don’t want to be around someone who makes you feel pressured and that is the effect you have on your W right now. Stop having R talks. Just stop. When she is around, be validating and kind but be busy being you...the you your W fell in love with in the first place.

I totally get the fear factor. Been there. Fear is just that...a worry your mind has created. A year later, the fear has subsided and life has begun. Not the life I wanted or planned for but the life that I have. Start living the life that you have for you and for your daughter. Also...if I were you, I would take a break on the MC until you both have the same goal. She is uncertain and MC is just making her more aware of that and feeling more pressure. Let her go. Stop the pressure and stop reminding her that she doesn’t want you right now...because she doesn’t. Not right now. That could change but not if you keep pressuring her and making emotionally charged statements and threats. That is the fear talking, not the rational you who wants the best for your daughter.

I KNOW how hard this is. Everyone posting on here does. We’ve all been there. It will get better if you do the things we are suggesting. (((HUGS)))
Posted By: lumis70 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/25/19 06:54 AM
DejaVu6 - just the reply I needed to hear; thank you.

I am trying to avoid R talks, but we will be physically face-to-face every 2-3 days for the next 16 years or so, and at the moment, I feel as if I'm being baited into arguments over nothing. This is how the majority of the R talks begin... for instance, before counseling last Friday, she literally said something like 'I'm going to say hurtful things in counseling today'. And then yes, I took the bait out of fear. The correct response would have probably been something like 'well I'm interested in hearing what you have to say with our counselor present'... or something.

I hear you on the MC - we have switched from weekly to every two weeks and the focus is intended to be our communication for the benefit of our child. What the W seems to want changes on a day-to-day lately. The idea of stopping the MC is a little scary as it is certainly helping in some of the problems we have.

The idea of sole custody was made out of fear, but I wouldn't call it irrational fear. I thought long and hard in my alone time about the pros and cons, and while I think the idea does have some merit for the best interest of our D, I think I'd be shutting the door on many potential benefits of joint custody, such as family time together whenever the W is willing. The MC helped quite a bit in pointing out things I wasn't considering here.

The bachelor party and team building thing at my work went well, but I did have bouts of major depression that hit me like a hammer a few times through both. This morning I was able to get some fishing in (at the bachelor party rental home which was on a river) and it was pretty relaxing. I hadn't really fished before aside from when I was really really young, and it definitely helped my mood. Unfortunately (or fortunately?) I needed to leave the party a day early to pick-up my D. This was my choice as the W would have been willing to provide care - I'm trying to use all the time I can with my D since I've noticed travel, sleep, and nap time all take up massive chunks of the time blocks we each have.

In counseling Friday, we agreed to not date or pursue romantic relationships until the legal split (whatever it ended up being) was finalized. This was something I requested on purely moral grounds; obviously she will do whatever she wants, but she seemed to indicate that it was the last thing on her radar and not a problem.

I saw her briefly today when I picked up my D. She seemed to be in a better mood than she was in counseling yesterday. I tried to stick to technical details such as when we could sit down and review the court documents, how she wanted to approach healthcare, etc. We considered a legal separation so she could stay on the healthcare plan and just pay me the difference each month; this would be a short-term solution until the next enrollment period. She then brought up the topic of dating and indicated she might not want to wait until things are finalized. I essentially told her that I couldn't stop her nor would I try, but that I absolutely had some ground rules that would form a morality clause in our paperwork. We agreed on these points (which I expected) - basically, no one is allowed to have a new partner stay over when our D is in the same home and our D cannot meet new partners until a minimum of 6 months of exclusive dating. Any concessions would need to be agreed upon in writing.

In short, I'm trying to work through this as amicably as possible with her. Today ended much better than it started. It is getting better day-by-day even just implementing parts of what is being suggested, but the biggest challenge comes in the form of getting knocked back to the ground again over and over by new waves of things getting worse. I'm emotionally drained this evening, but I bet I'll get a good night's sleep.

I'm curious, when you say 'we've all been there' - is my situation really no more ridiculous than anyone else on here? I'm down in the weeds feeling like her leaving me via e-mail saying she wants to end the marriage, followed by weeks of coming home, telling me it is forever, wanting another baby, and then going back to wanting to end the marriage all in the course of 2 months time is just insanity. The sex I get - people get horny and it was a booty call for both of us... but the extreme mental flip-flopping and talking about having another kid just blows my mind.
Posted By: lumis70 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/26/19 06:55 PM
I re-read this thread today:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2177869#Post2177869

It seems as if every time I read through it, more of the boxes are checked. We're up to a solid 25 of 30 which is disheartening given what I understand about MLC... but I'm starting to feel myself let go. Just an observation - not dwelling on this, but I am trying to keep myself sharp due to my D being under her care. Some of the MLC stuff is downright scary.

I am trying to formulate a game plan here, because I feel as if I'm tackling too many fronts at once (the biggest time sink is obviously not being able to detach effectively yet).

My cycle is currently this:

I have a few days where nothing got worse, and I start to settle into a comfortable zone, start to get a little bored, and really start to try and make plans with friends, etc.

Sometimes I follow-through on plans, but I oftentimes feel a deep low after the activity offers a distraction. I get thoughts like 'I can't wait to tell my W about th.... oh yeah, I forgot'. This in and of itself is a short-term low, but what really gets me is when she texts something like 'I miss you guys' while I have our D. This makes me feel good, and then inevitably a few days later, she drops another bomb such as last Friday's 'I've made up my mind 100% on ending the R'.

Her behavior over the next few days usually feels extremely fake, like she is acting. She makes it a point to ignore texts about very important things (money, bills, child care) and when I call her out on it saying something like 'I realize where we are at, but we are still parents and need to discuss this', she oftentimes replies with 'yes, you're right' and then loosens up a little, for lack of better words.

Side note - her saying things like 'that's a good point' or 'you're right' have ALWAYS coincided with a moment of clarity for her when I simply restate our reality over the last two months. For example:

I offered that after she got off work, she might come over and cut my hair and just hang out and watch some TV or something. The haircut thing was pushed off from the other day and frankly, my hair is not easy to cut... she doesn't want anyone else to cut it and I don't blame her. Aside from her work, I've hated 90% of haircuts I've gotten in my life.

W: 'I can probably come over and cut your hair. I'm a little confused why you want to spend quality time though besides family time'

Me: 'Why are you confused?'

W: 'Because we are not together anymore?'

Me: 'I recognize where we are at, but you are still my friend, my teammate in raising our child, and someone I care for. This isn't a high school breakup, we haven't been together in over a month but there are still days we've spent time together because we both felt like it.'

W: 'That's a good point. You're right'

Me: 'So it was an offer, that's it. I wanted to watch TV with my friend, so I offered.'

W: 'And you need a haircut lol'

Me: 'Yes I do, and you're the only one I trust [cutting my hair]. If you're not feeling it, just say so - I can handle it.'

She didn't come over last night, and I didn't expect her to. That said, she did text at 9 PM saying she was leaving work and asked what our D and I were up to. I said we were getting dinner, sent a picture of our D, and left it at that. She texted again at 11 PM asking if I was awake and then said 'maybe I can come cut your hair tomorrow?'. I said that it sounded good to me, and she said she forgot her supplies at the salon last night. I simply replied that it wasn't a big deal, and that was it for texting last night.

Emotionally, I know that I've backed off from her a LOT. After the BD, I was at an 11/10 for hounding her with R talk, and I'm at like maybe a 2/10 now. She DOES tend to bait/trap me when R talk does start, but I'm learning to see that better before it becomes a race to the bottom. I'm having a difficult time discerning between detaching in a healthy way and completely ignoring her. Good example - if she says she misses me, I say 'I miss you too'. I feel as if that's acceptable given she initiated... but I'm not sure.

When we exchange our child, I give her a big hug, because I want to act 'as-if' without pushing the limits (sometimes I kiss her on the cheek and I'm working on knocking that off!), and still be cordial. I explained to her that I would still be cordial to her in front of our D, and if she couldn't reciprocate, that I just ask she be civil.

This morning specifically, she came over, I gave her a hug, and we sat with our D while she ate breakfast. I made it a point to leave fairly quickly saying I should head to work, and she seemed just a teeny-tiny bit surprised. Gave my D a kiss, said I loved her, gave my W a hug, and took off.

This thread has helped me a little over the weekend; specifically, Hurt213's post:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2844693&page=3
Posted By: lumis70 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/27/19 04:05 AM
Today I've been trying to stay away from the W in terms of texting, etc. and I really don't know how to reply when she texts things like "you doing okay today?"

Little advice? It's like every time I back off she tries to initiate contact. She just sent a picture of her and our D as I was typing this out...
Posted By: DS9 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/27/19 05:33 AM
Hi Lumis

My suggestion is wait several hours to reply, then something like "All good thanks", or just that thumbs up emoji.

Your haircut incident brought memories - my XW used to cut mine in the way she liked. I didn't mind the style, but preferred my old style - happy wife, happy life, right?

Anyway, I go to a barber regularly now. You should too. Get the cut you want, and get a shampoo as well - it'll make you feel better. My hair is unruly too. A good barber will work with you to get the style you want.

Don't get your XW to cut your hair anymore. Do not ask her to do any of these things, nor hug, kiss etc unless it is initiated by her. As R2C told me, seduce her back.

If you haven't already, I'd read Robx's posts from years ago. I found them remarkable.

I see you like fishing - what gear have you got and what do you chase?

Good luck mate!
Posted By: lumis70 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/27/19 08:30 AM
Originally Posted by DS9
My suggestion is wait several hours to reply, then something like "All good thanks", or just that thumbs up emoji.


Appreciate this!

Originally Posted by DS9
Your haircut incident brought memories - my XW used to cut mine in the way she liked. I didn't mind the style, but preferred my old style - happy wife, happy life, right?

Anyway, I go to a barber regularly now. You should too. Get the cut you want, and get a shampoo as well - it'll make you feel better. My hair is unruly too. A good barber will work with you to get the style you want.


My hair is extremely fine... like every barber/stylist I've had in my life has had trouble with it - it isn't that she's cutting it the way she likes it... it's the fact that she's had 8 years of practice.

Originally Posted by DS9
Don't get your XW to cut your hair anymore. Do not ask her to do any of these things, nor hug, kiss etc unless it is initiated by her. As R2C told me, seduce her back.


I'll let her cut it this time, then find someone new. I do know that this will piss her off... not looking forward to it, but I understand what you're telling me.

I'll challenge you one time on this - I hug her because I want my D to see her parents hugging. The hugs aren't weird and they are co-initiated about 50% of the time right now. Both of us came from homes with parents that are still together and my parents rarely showed physical affection to each other. For my D's benefit, I would rather hug an ex-wife than not hug a wife. I hug my friends, male or female, and if worse came to worse and W and I split, and eventually became involved with other people, I would still hug her in front of my D.

The kisses I will stop - it's been a challenge but I can definitely do that going forward.

Originally Posted by DS9
If you haven't already, I'd read Robx's posts from years ago. I found them remarkable.


I will look these up, thank you.

Originally Posted by DS9
I see you like fishing - what gear have you got and what do you chase?


Honestly this was the first time in my adult life I've fished. I enjoyed it, and the gear I was using belonged to a friend. He said I was really good and I was pulling up bass every third cast or so. I don't know if I'd make it a new hobby, but it was very relaxing and if I didn't have to decide between time with my D and doing it for a few more hours, I would have kept at it!
Posted By: DS9 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/27/19 09:14 AM
Hi lumis

Ok got you with the hair. I wonder why she would want to keep doing this? Just before my bd my xw started ironing my shirts. After, she announced I’d have to start doing that as though she’d been doing it for years!

Got you with the hugs too and the background. My angle was from a totally different sitch. At bd for us all affection stopped immediately and this from multiple daily touching kisses hugs grabs gropes etc. my son noticed the lack of affection and it was heartbreaking, and very hard for me too, given the flick of a switch change.

Get into the gym immediately so when she does hug you, you feel physically different and wear cologne.

I’m glad you enjoyed fishing- there’s nothing like the rush of a screaming reel!
Posted By: lumis70 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/27/19 10:33 PM
So I thought I was doing pretty well today - there was a lot of back and forth via text, and I'm trying to apply what I'm learning. Some of this will be summarized but if there's room for improvement, I'd love to know:

W: After I drop our D off tonight, I need to go into work, then come back and cut your hair?

Me: That is fine, sure. I'll have your cat ready with her carrier, food, and litter box. She will need dry food soon.

(Note - W has neglected to care for her animal since she left it with me; she has had the cat since she was 11 years old so this baffles me. I have asked multiple times in counseling and out for her to take it, and she has been putting it off, but agreed to after 8 weeks of counseling. This is why I did not ask this time, but rather asserted that she will be taking the cat tonight.)

W: Okay. [thumbs-up sign]

Me: How did you sleep?

W: I slept okay.

Me: Just okay? Our D sleep okay?

W: Yeah, she's great!

Me: That's good, you doing alright?

W: For the most part yeah.

Me: What's going on?

W: Just sad about stuff.

Me: Your sadness is just as valid as your anger and resentment; I'm here to listen with full attention if you want. I understand that you want a divorce. You know that is not what I want, but I will not stand in your way if you choose to follow through with it.

W: I think it will just take time to figure out what our new friendship/relationship is like.

(I started slipping here)

Me: That's what I was saying when I was asking you to come home. I didn't want, and don't want our old marriage, but I didn't expect everything to be wonderful immediately. You have been figuring that out for 2 months already and there is no rush to figure it out. There is no shame in feeling how you feel, whether it be doubting your decision or doubling down on it.

(tried to recover)

Me: Your feelings are valid. Feeling positive one day and negative another are equally valid. I am listening to every thought and feeling you share with me and I hear all of it.

W: Thank you for being open to listening. I don't really know what to say right now.

Me: I have always listened. I haven't necessarily understood what you were asking of me in the past, but I was always listening. I understand you want a divorce; this is not the path I would want to take to get through this. However, I will not stand in your way if you choose to follow through with a divorce.

(slipping again here)

Me: Remember that no option is off the table. We are mature adults and allowed to change our minds, for better or for worse. The only three people these decisions matter to are each of our and our D. Not counselors, parents, friends, or others.

W: That's all true.

Me: We are pretty good at reading each other but we are not mind readers and we've been missing the mark for a while. Your communication to me was not effectively received and it was both and neither of our fault equally. I am just as frustrated with this as you are- I never wanted you to have to walk out the door for me to understand you, but we are where we are.

(trying again to recover)

Me: I hope your day improves- I know you don't want my support; just know that I am always willing to be available, drop everything, and give you my full attention. You've been there in my lowest times and I'm always here for you as long as you'll allow it.

W: It's not that I don't want your support I just don't even know what I need from you right now.

(side note - she literally said "I don't want your support" less than a week ago... 'believe nothing you hear' is very real)

Me: That makes sense that you wouldn't know what you need from me. In your shoes I imagine I would be thinking 'how could the person making me angry and resentful also be the same person I would want support from?'. That's my limited view from the other side of this, but it makes sense that you feel that way.

Me: I will always be patient for you. I get where we are- we missed the mark big time. Whatever path you take to address that- I will accept it.

(mixed bag on this next bit... said too much but cleaned it up at the end)

Me: A friend recently reminded me that at one point, we loved each other enough to get married and bring a child into the world. We made those choices. Those are not impulsive decisions but real, mature, adult love. For me, knowing that trumps all challenges because I know what we are capable of. My feelings and my path - not standing in the way of yours, just being open about my feelings.

W: That's fine. I like knowing what you're thinking. How's work?

(some random talk here and then...)

W: I think we should file for legal separation. That probably makes the most sense for now.

Me: If that's what you want, I will not stand in your way.

W: Yes. I would like to do that as soon as we can. Maybe tonight we can look over the paperwork.

Me: We can go over it, yes.

W: Thank you. That would be good.

(some random talk about technical details that I understood about the process)

(more random talk including us agreeing that we did not want to hire attorneys and wanted to try to be amicable)

Me: Not looking forward to this and this is not the path I would have chosen, but if this is what you want after we go over it all, I won't fight you. I don't expect us to file this evening, I think we should both reflect on it a few days after filling it out. That is my feeling and I respect if your's differs. I have no personal reason to rush anything because all I'm devoting time to right now is myself and our D (she understands I have moral issues with dating before legally being divorced or separated).

W: Well that's what I'm doing, too. I don't expect to file today but want to be on the same page about the details.

Me: FWIW, I'm willing to work amicably as long as we need to without involving the court. This is not being 'in limbo' for me, and while it isn't fun, I have no pressing needs that our marriage is preventing me from doing. I will be a good father and good person to you regardless.

W: You know me. It feels like a weird grey area and I don't like that. I'm just feeling like I already know what I want to happen so I don't want to wait and give you false hope.

Me: It isn't giving me false hope. Your feelings and dedication to this are valid and real to me. It's not the path I would take, but I'm not standing in your way.

W: Okay. I know this is all really weird and I'm sorry for that.

(poured out a lot in the next bit, but I don't necessarily think it was bad...)

Me: The problems we have are not going to be resolved in 8 weeks; not together, separated, or divorced. I have always been in it for the long haul because I see this as a marathon, not a sprint. I hear and understand your concerns about feeling like this is a grey area and I am sorry you feel that way.

Changes in legal status will not affect the fact that you are still my friend, teammate in raising our child, and someone I care for. The grey area is 8 years of your life talking; not our legal ties.

I imagine you are trying to make changes that will make you happy. If I were in your shoes, I don't think that moving out would have made me happy, getting a parenting plan in place wouldn't have made me happy, and getting a divorce wouldn't make me happy. Time is what it took for me in the past. Nothing else healed better than time and forgiveness.

This is weird and sad, yes. It's not the path I would have chosen to take.

W: I still want to communicate and work on forgiveness so we can maintain a good relationship. We will be connected forever. However I don't have any interest in staying married. I know you don't agree with my or think it's best to split up. But it is. I'm sure of that.

(taking a deep breath here... things felt like there were wishy-washy until this last message...)

Me: I know; what you're feeling is real and valid. It isn't the path I would want to take but I'm not going to stand in your way. This will not change.

You should have stopped texting waaay sooner. Like right here:

Me: How did you sleep?


Most LBS talk way to much. Less words are always better. Give her time and space.


Have someone else cut your hair.
Posted By: DS9 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/27/19 11:08 PM
Hey mate,

With respect, I think I probably would have ended this conversation after she gave you the thumbs up emoji regarding the cat right at the beginning. My observation is that you led this somewhere it didn't need to go after that point. Irrespective, if she had led this line of talk, I think the balance of what she said could have been met by you with just a lot of 'm-hmm, go on' and pensive facial and hand gestures.

I of course stand to be corrected by the vets if I'm wrong here.

In my sitch, after BD 7 months ago, I think I told my XW about 3 times something along the lines of "I accept your decision, and wish it weren't so', and I think that was probably 2 times too many.

There's sticky validation and Sandi's rules threads which I recommend you read.

Good luck mate

If you have time, go get your hair cut before D is dropped off.
Posted By: Jac12 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/27/19 11:10 PM
Way too much talking Lumis. Right at the very beginning of the conversation you started with the questions...if she wanted to open up and talk to you she would have. The conversation should have ended after she said: "okay (thumbs up sign)".

When you are telling her your thoughts on things it's adding pressure for her to make a decision. If she had to make a decision right now it wouldn't include you in her future (at this moment) so you need to stop putting that on her.

Detach, GAL and don't let her cut your hair. When she comes in you say: "Don't worry about my hair, there is a new barber I'd like to try but thanks for offering".

I'm no DB Pro either but I'm learning alot from reading other peoples situations. I also try to talk about things too much and its NEVER helped no matter what I say. Actions speak louder than words. She knows you don't want this but she probably feels like she's drowning and she'll do anything to breathe. So give her space and let her breathe. Focus on yourself and make some positive changes that may intrigue her. If not, down the road they'll intrigue someone else.

You can do this.


When W drops off D, Take D and say :

H: "Don't worry about my hair, there is a new barber I'd like to try but thanks for offering. Stay later at work if you need." then get in car and go someplace. Do not linger. Drive to park or a dinner.


Posted By: DS9 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/27/19 11:23 PM
Originally Posted by Ready2Change

If you have time, go get your hair cut before D is dropped off.


I'd actually make this a priority, get it cut to a different style, style it, get dressed up, but look slightly dishevelled, so when she arrives with D it looks like he's just got back from some exciting outing. Maybe even be busy on the phone when she arrives, and wave her off politely with hand gestures. If I were the W, I'd probably be expecting a continuation of this conversation upon arrival with D.
Posted By: lumis70 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/28/19 01:32 AM
Wow, I was shooting for a C, maybe C- and failed miserably.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change

Most LBS talk way to much. Less words are always better. Give her time and space.


Got it.

She got to the house like 15 minutes early (scheduled only 30 minutes after I'm done at work) so no time to get the hair cut earlier. She walked in and gave me a hug and kiss, then went back into work immediately. She will be coming back in 2 hours or so. The hair cut is just part of it - she wants to go over paperwork this evening. I'm going to try to limit tonight's talk to the parenting plan as I have it printed and filled. Honestly, that's all I'll be able to handle in one sitting.

Should I decline the haircut in person or text in advance saying I'll get it cut elsewhere? This is definitely something that she will find unusual or shocking. Another style isn't an option unless I grow it out for a few years... my hair style is either right or wrong. The other issue - declining the haircut will piss her off. Pissed off W before trying to agree on parenting plans seems iffy at best.
Posted By: DS9 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/28/19 02:00 AM
Originally Posted by lumis70


The other issue - declining the haircut will piss her off. Pissed off W before trying to agree on parenting plans seems iffy at best.


Ok, I think you should just focus solely on the parenting plan and spend as much time on that, then when she raises the haircut say dont worry, we've gone over time with the important stuff and I'm too tired etc etc. Don't telegraph that ahead of time - just focus on the important stuff, go over time, then decline the haircut, but only if she raises it.

Tomorrow, find a barber and get it cut - call ahead and see if they are good with fine hair. I'm assuming her getting 'p'd off' is just her nature? I think she'll need to start recognising the shock value in that you now have some independence, including the right to get your hair cut elsewhere.
Originally Posted by DS9
Ok, I think you should just focus solely on the parenting plan and spend as much time on that, then when she raises the haircut say dont worry, we've gone over time with the important stuff and I'm too tired etc etc. Don't telegraph that ahead of time - just focus on the important stuff, go over time, then decline the haircut, but only if she raises it.

Tomorrow, find a barber and get it cut - call ahead and see if they are good with fine hair.

This ^^^
Posted By: lumis70 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/28/19 05:31 AM
She hugged me and kissed me when she came into the house. The kiss was awkward because I never know if I should expect it or not. We focused on the parenting plan, and I refused the haircut saying I would get it done elsewhere (as politely as possible).

The parenting plan went effectively nowhere. She flipped through 20 some pages like it was a cartoon flip-book and said she didn't understand it well enough - I offered that she take it with her. She acted suspicious when I designated my address as the primary address for our child (she effectively has no home, as she is crashing at her parents' apartment). I said I didn't fully understand the implications and said we would need to look it up. Turns out, in joint custody, it doesn't really mean anything legally (I didn't share this yet as I learned it after she left).

We had a beer together, put our daughter down to bed, and she took off... that was about it. She said she was sad, apologized that this was 'weird'. The goodbye hug was a grandpa-style pat the back deal.
Posted By: Traveler Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/28/19 07:00 AM
Originally Posted by "Lumis"

Me: ?
W: I slept okay.
Me: ? ?
W: Yeah, she's great!
Me: ?
W: For the most part yeah.
Me: ?
W: Just sad about stuff.

Me: Your sadness is just as valid as your anger and resentment; I'm here to listen with full attention if you want. I understand that you want a divorce. You know that is not what I want, but I will not stand in your way if you choose to follow through with it.

Lumis, it sounds like you were excited for her to say something meaningful so you could listen and validate. Alas, her answers were SHORT and CLOSED-ENDED. This indicates they didn't want to do so, and pressuring with many questions and monologues probably didn't help your case.

Originally Posted by "Lumis"
We had a beer together, put our daughter down to bed, and she took off... that was about it.

Round II sounds like it went much smoother.
Posted By: Traveler Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/28/19 07:41 AM
Originally Posted by "Lumis"
I told her that she underestimated how messy this would likely get and she asked what I meant. I said that since she was done, my priority would 100% be on my D, and that I would be petitioning for full custody.. In counseling she explained that this was effectively me 'going back to my old ways' and trying to control her. She said this firmed up her decision to end the marriage.

Wow.. it's been a rough month. It seems ridiculously unfair that separation forces us to try to learn to "let go" at the very moment our lives are spinning wildly out of control.

Originally Posted by "Lumis"
The parenting plan went effectively nowhere. She flipped through 20 some pages like it was a cartoon flip-book and said she didn't understand it well enough

What were your expectations? It seems natural to want time to review such an important document. She may even want to make changes so it reflects a mix of your ideas and hers.

Originally Posted by "Lumis"
(she effectively has no home, as she is crashing at her parents' apartment). Turns out, in joint custody, it doesn't really mean anything legally

The address in mine determines my kids' school district and how far we can move. If the address in yours has no meaning, I'd fill in her parents' address. That should help reduce her doubts.
Lumis, great advice from the others. Just to reinforce their points- keep convos short and business-like. Remember you can't "nice" her back. Find someone else to cut your hair, my XW used to cut mine but after BD I found someone else posthaste. Next time you see her carry the freakin' cat out to the car for her. Don't take no for an answer.
Posted By: lumis70 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/28/19 04:58 PM
Originally Posted by CWarrior
What were your expectations? It seems natural to want time to review such an important document. She may even want to make changes so it reflects a mix of your ideas and hers.


My expectations were to receive some input as we had agreed on many points in advance. I expected that she would need to think about holidays but everything else is pretty cut and dry. Her only other point of concern was verbal (my choice) vs. written agreement to altering the child care schedule temporarily.

Originally Posted by CWarrior
The address in mine determines my kids' school district and how far we can move. If the address in yours has no meaning, I'd fill in her parents' address. That should help reduce her doubts.


I've heard it can be preferential but not req'd in my area for school district, and frankly this isn't a concern for 3-4 years. Her parents are looking for a new place to live so I selected my address given the (relative) permanence.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Next time you see her carry the freakin' cat out to the car for her. Don't take no for an answer.


Oh! I forgot about that! She was getting ready to leave and I told her the cat carrier/litter box/cat food was all ready. She tried to get out of it saying 'can I just get her tomorrow?' and 'is it okay if I just come by tomorrow night and pick her up?' but I extremely politely pushed back saying 'oh it will just be easier to take her tonight, all the stuff is ready to go! See?'.

Honestly, I love cats and have one I'm still caring for (blind, deaf, and has renal failure), but her 20 year old kitty was just too much work due to some unfortunate litter box habits (i.e. the box is for #1, the floor is for #2). When my W was pregnant with our D, she got out of all cat-related responsibilities using the 'can't change cat litter when I'm pregnant' excuse for EVERYTHING, including feeding. Once our D was born, nothing changed; I have been the cat's primary caretaker since.
Posted By: lumis70 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/29/19 05:26 PM
I felt pretty good about yesterday but hit a MASSIVE snag this morning.

I'll note at the beginning - I am not seeking out her life updates online; she has blocked me on Find My Friends as well as her calendar (which is really inconvenient for exchanging our D, but whatever). The extent of what have seen are her Instagram where she too the words 'proud wife' out of her profile, and her Facebook where she still lists me as her husband. Don't forget this - I am being completely honest when I say I am NOT seeking out life updates about her; I know how bad they hurt, how little good they do, and how anxious this would make me. I'll come back to this in a moment.

So yesterday, the only messages were as follows:

1. Me asking her to transfer money into our shared account to not overdraw on the counseling check.
2. Her asking how my D and I were doing - I waited 20 min. then replied 'All good thanks'
3. Her asking how my day way - I waited 40 min. then replied 'Good thanks!' and she said 'That's good'
4. Sent a few photos of our D as we tend to do as a courtesy to each other; she said 'Thank you for sending photos of our D' and I said 'You're welcome'. She replied 'I really appreciate it' and I sent a thumbs-up.
5. Her asking at 11 pm if I was awake, then telling me that she just saw a massive car/pedestrian accident and gave some details. I replied 'That's crazy'. I wasn't trying to be cold, but I honestly was stumped with how to respond without becoming a shoulder to cry on.

Then, browsing an anonymous message board (think Reddit or the old Craigslist local threads), I stumbled across a post with her name, which is spelled in a really unique way. I didn't seek this out. At all...

...but I did pull the loose thread attached to the sweater.

The post essentially said '[W's name] - enjoyed talking to you, and I hope you find what you're looking for after your divorce is finalized. Don't text me.'

I replied posing as an anonymous party curious if it was indeed about her... and it was. Her and I agreed to not pursue romantic interests until the divorce/separation was filed or finalized, but this guy had been on a date with her. He noted that she initially implied they would have sex after the date as long as there was protection, but that she did not follow through with anything sexual. He knew that she was still married and had a D. He knew my D's age. He knew my W's job (though she had lied about details). He knew her age. Just listing all of this to confirm that yes, this really happened.

This morning, my W came over to pick up our D. She mentioned she didn't sleep and had a bad night due to the car accident she witnessed. I tested the waters by saying I didn't sleep and had a bad dream. She asked what it was about, and I stated that I dreamed that despite our agreement to not pursue romantic interests, that she had been dating and talking to people romantically/sexually. She took my hand and told me I could trust her, that she had thought about it, but had not done anything of the sort. She reconfirmed this at least three times over the short window of feeding our D breakfast.

She indicated that she wished we had our MC this week rather than next week, as she was having a really tough time. She also showed some anger that I didn't give her any acknowledgement about the car accident. I replied that if she wanted support, she would need to ask as the last thing she told me was that she didn't want my support. She was doing a total dance between wanting to hug me and not let herself be physically close.

So needless to say, my morning is pretty lousy. I suspected she was dating already given her urgency to file papers (as if shortening the window of time would undo the lying that already took place), but she is clearly back to her cycle of cultivating lust.

As a reminder from page 1, her addictive cycle when cheating in the past was as follows:

1. Cultivate lust with men by telling them everything they want to hear, showing them anything they want to see, etc.
2. Continue to feel power over men until the point where things inevitably become physical.
3. Either follow-through with sexual interactions and dissociate during the act(s), or back out at the last minute and ghost the person entirely.

Now... is this cheating? No, probably not at this point. We are separated, and she has fired me as her husband. This behavior however SERIOUSLY worries me w/ regard to her self-control in the care of our D. I am at a loss as to what to do right now.

We made the agreement to not hire lawyers unless the other does first... but I'm feeling as if I may need one for the following reasons:

1. She takes anger out on me and has to the point of physically hitting me during our relationship. Without me around, I'm worried my D may fill this void.
2. She throws self-preservation to the wind when pursuing these addictive tendencies. In the past, she engaged in unprotected sex, sex with multiple men in one day, and allowing herself to be physically battered by these men. I am worried less that this will take place with my D present than I am that one day, my D may suddenly have no mother.
3. She overshares information about our D with these EA interests. She has sent photos of our D to people she met online, including photos of our D in the bathtub.

I'm scared this morning... I'm not even thinking about having her back but just focused on the best interests of my D. Perhaps emotions are blowing this out of proportion... but I don't know.
Posted By: lumis70 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/29/19 06:34 PM
I thought the OM was done talking and he just kept going...

Things didn't get sexual, but they planned it next time they met so they would be able 'to have more time'.
She stopped replying to his texts, but continued to send barely clothed photos of herself to him.
They initially started talking because she vented about hooking up with someone prior who got feelings for her, then ghosted her. This one is obviously hearsay but still having a rough morning.

She is completely out of control of her own actions. Yes, she is an adult and can make these decisions, but this is like the first year of our marriage all over again in terms of her behavior.

My options, as I see it, are as follows:

1. Take charge and file for divorce myself to get some structure in place.
2. Consult with another attorney; hire if I feel custody may become nasty based on the initial consultation.
3. Talk to her father and show the example of her current cultivating lust behavior; in the past, he was all-in for staging an intervention to her addiction - note that this is probably the least likely choice I will make.
4. Call her out on lying? Simply dropping this guy's name would stop her dead in her tracks right now... but to what end? Addicts need to hit their own rock-bottom and I don't see this helping anything.
5. Wait a day and hang out with my DB support.

I'm scared for my D's sake here. If my W is a lost-cause, I do not want to waste a moment supporting my D's safety in whatever way possible.
Lumis, sorry you're going through this. She's a lying cheater like so many other waywards whose husbands end up here. Please wrap your mind around that. She lies, and she cheats. That's not someone you can trust, right? So don't. AS for your options:

1. Not yet.
2. Definitely.
3. No, absolutely not.
4. If you confront her then expect her to go deeper undercover with her activities, and to lie to your face about it.
5. Waiting is always a good idea if you're unsure how to proceed. It's also a good idea after a new "discovery".

I would also offer:

6. Go completely dark except for required contact about D. No pictures, no chummy texts, stick strictly to required business. GAL GAL GAL. Quit snooping, you know she lies and cheats so there's nothing more to learn from it.
Posted By: lumis70 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/29/19 09:52 PM
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
1. Not yet.
2. Definitely.
3. No, absolutely not.
4. If you confront her then expect her to go deeper undercover with her activities, and to lie to your face about it.
5. Waiting is always a good idea if you're unsure how to proceed. It's also a good idea after a new "discovery".
6. Go completely dark except for required contact about D. No pictures, no chummy texts, stick strictly to required business. GAL GAL GAL. Quit snooping, you know she lies and cheats so there's nothing more to learn from it.


1. Filled the paperwork at least. I feel as if it's worth printing and providing it to her. She will not lift a finger with this unless I shove it into her lap.
2. I consulted with one prior. I could consult again, but frankly I know I'll hit a point where they'll either want me to hire them or hit the road.
3. Noted.
4. I don't know what my motivation would be here, other than to let her know that I know she is lying. I am really struggling here - I see signs of the addiction and I am having a hard time not seeing her as a suffering spouse.
5. I haven't taken action aside from filling out paperwork.
6. It's all business today, and I'm not digging. I'm at the bottom of the hole.
Posted By: lumis70 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/29/19 11:38 PM
I am holding back... but all I want to do right now is text her saying:

"Please just ignore me and our relationship for a moment and listen; I am intimately familiar with how you act when you are struggling with your own personal demons, and really think that you are going through something that isn't healthy and is causing you to make choices that you will seriously regret later, as you have in the past. If this is correct, then you are not making yourself or your D proud, and you need to make the choice to get help. I am not telling you that I am the help you need, but I am always here for you."

I don't want to pursue full custody after agreeing to joint, however the current situation changes things in my mind. She makes BAD decisions when she is dealing with the sex/love addiction, and I am scared for our D.
Posted By: LH19 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/29/19 11:54 PM
That would be a very bad move dude. You are trying to use logic and reason with an emotional human being.
Posted By: Jac12 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/30/19 12:49 AM
Don't text her that.
Posted By: lumis70 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/30/19 01:07 AM
I didn't text her that. I said more than I should, but definitely not that much.
Posted By: Jac12 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/30/19 01:20 AM
What did you say?
Posted By: lumis70 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/30/19 01:22 AM
She agreed to my drafted separation statement that gives joint custody, her business debt stays in her name, I keep the house (there is no equity in it), and we have 50:50 time with out daughter. She also agreed to paying me about $2500 in back income, $500/mo. for her health insurance. She is asking for no child support, and no spousal support. All court ordered. Since this is jointly filed, I am heavily leaving towards getting the ink dry tomorrow to get these agreements locked in.
Posted By: lumis70 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/30/19 04:14 PM
She made it clear that she wanted the filing to be a divorce and not separation.

Originally Posted by jac12
What did you say?


(regarding the drafted divorce documents she thanked me for sending it to her)

Me: Thank you for being honest so nothing has to be contested later. That dream last night really got to me.

W: You're welcome. You and I both have fears about stuff. I think that's normal.

Me: Some of your behaviors around me lately have reminded me of when you were making decisions that were self harmful and letting men use you. I've just been worried...

W: I have no idea how to act around you; this is new and uncomfortable for both of us.

Me: I'm not asking you to act a specific way - I'm stating what I feel from my experience with you in the past.

W: If you're talking about being physically distant, that's due to the fact that we aren't together anymore.

Me: That's not it at all.

W: I'm confused.

That was it. We will be filing today and in the short-term, I think it's for the best. I'm exhausted, and I don't want my old marriage. Am I making the right choice? Should I be pressing for a separation filing and not divorce? The fact that she held my hands, looked me in the eyes and flat-out lied yesterday is just... awful. I feel like I don't know who she is right now. The fact that she was even capable of that without shedding a tear is scary.
Posted By: lumis70 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/30/19 04:27 PM
I'm on the DB forums because I don't want a divorce... I desperately want to reconcile... but at the same time, I'm so scared that the terms presented to me will get MUCH worse if I drag it out. What do I do here?
Originally Posted by lumis70
I'm so scared that the terms presented to me will get MUCH worse if I drag it out. What do I do here?



If you believe this is the best deal you will get, I would get things finalized as quickly as possible.


Keep working on your personal growth. She may have a change of heart in the future. You can then decide what to do then.
Posted By: lumis70 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/30/19 05:53 PM
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
If you believe this is the best deal you will get, I would get things finalized as quickly as possible.


I negotiated with her via text a bit this morning (our county is much more difficult to file in than expected). We are postponing things for a few days, and I was able to get her to agree to a separation for a minimum of one year before conversion to divorce. I told her it was a preference for me, that I had hope and understood that she didn't, and that this would only prevent her from re-marrying within a year, and allow her to keep herself on my insurance (optionally). I agreed to cover the $300 filing fees should we convert to divorce.

I was also able to get her to agree to mutually undergo psych exams with court orders to follow the recommendations. I see nothing but benefits to this for my D. I received the exact script from a personal friend working in child services for a common order they use:

Quote
Both parties will complete a comprehensive psychological evaluation and follow any and all recommendations of the provider. This is to ensure that both parents are aware of any untreated mental health issues that could cause concern, and address them with mental health professionals so that they can safely parent the child.


Added some orders about social media and not talking down about the other spouse in public forum:

Quote
Neither party shall denigrate each other on social media during the separation. The intent is to restrict the posting of items online that would harm, disparage, denigrate, or otherwise negatively impact the other spouse's image or reputation or have a negative impact on the other spouse's business, school, or career prospects.


Moral clauses to prevent either party from introducing a new romantic partner to our D before 6 months of mutual dating and introduction to the other spouse.

All of these things she seems to be accepting and I am making these with my D's well-being in mind.
Posted By: LH19 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/30/19 06:12 PM
L,

Are your Ws complaints that everything is about you and that you’re a control freak?
Posted By: Traveler Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/30/19 06:56 PM
Originally Posted by "LH19"
Are your Ws complaints that everything is about you and that you’re a control freak?

Lumis, you are seeking an unusual amount of control over your partner in these filings. "And introduction to the other spouse" - How does this help your D? Suppose you meet this guy for 5 minutes and realize he hasn't showered in days, is rude and obnoxious, and believes college is for losers. You still don't get any say over whether that's your D's stepfather, one of the people influencing her life.

I would feel controlled if my ex-wife had asked for all these terms.
Posted By: lumis70 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/30/19 06:58 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
L,

Are your Ws complaints that everything is about you and that you’re a control freak?


Depends on the day. Complaints have ranged from needing to be in control (though this is NOT a common complaint - it is more of a recent one given the turmoil), not communicating well, not understanding her, making a comment about her nose 7 years ago, not being a good enough father for the first year and a half of our daughter's life, being terrible during her pregnancy, accusations of cheating, being fake, being too nice in an effort to win her back, looking at her wrong, being too happy (i.e. acting as-if), and so on. Everything is extremely negative right now, and has been for two months. She never focuses on one issue.

I see where you were going with the question, but these (morality clause, etc.) are things we had discussed prior - I didn't drop these all on her at once and we were in agreement on all that were covered previously. The only thing I dropped on her today was my preference for separation for 1 year before divorce, and the psych eval. The latter was at the suggestion of my friend in child services given her knowledge of things that have taken place when my W and D were alone (sending of my D's photos, getting into sewing kits, etc.). She said these didn't meet the mandatory reporting criteria as risk of abuse was low... but the photos that were sent were close.

Regarding the psych eval - my W has untreated mental health issues. This is clear as day. These may not be a risk to my D at the present time, but I do NOT want to wait until they are before seeking further help. Whether my marriage survives or not, this is a non-negotiable for me. It won't be fun for either of us, but I realize if I request this in the separation, it will be granted even if she objects as it will be in the best interest of our D. I have no expectations for the outcome - I honestly hope we throw away a bit of money and get a diagnosis of 'too healthy' but something tells me it won't have that outcome.

We need space. We both need to GAL. We need legal structure to protect everyone. I don't want a divorce, she does. I believe some time may give her healing, and if she needs to date a bit along the way, so be it. By getting this separation filed, I think we will be able to breathe a bit and find a new 'normal'. Maybe over the next year, she'll decide she doesn't like the new normal and wants to give it a shot again with a little more dedication... or hell, maybe I'll like the new normal. I fully intend to continue working on myself with the help of everyone here, though I pray the drama declines in the near future.

Some things from today - her grandmother is going to pass today or tomorrow (hospice care), and I simply offered to be present if she wanted me around, while setting aside all of our own issues. I told her I didn't expect her to reply with a decision, but just not to be ashamed to ask. She immediately said that perhaps her and my D would come over to my (I guess it's mine, now?) home. I just said to let me know, and 'whatever you need' and left it at that.
Posted By: lumis70 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/30/19 07:01 PM
Originally Posted by CWarrior
Lumis, you're seeking an unusual amount of control over your partner in these filings. "And introduction to the other spouse" - How does this help your D? Suppose you meet this guy for 5 minutes and realize he hasn't showered in days, is rude and obnoxious, and believes college is for losers. You still don't get any say over whether that's your D's stepfather, one of the people influencing her at the other home. I would definitely feel controlled if my ex-wife had asked for all these terms.


I will post the full statement and note that she was in FULL agreement with all of it. She didn't bat an eye - she wanted the exact same things from me and we mutually felt they were in the best interest of our D:

My concern with meeting the other partner and potentially objecting is along the lines of MLC behaviors - seeking someone that encourages bad behaviors (drugs, alcohol, etc.). I think it's totally reasonable to meet someone ONE TIME (minimum) that is potentially around your child on a regular basis.

Quote
Morality Clause:

Neither parent may introduce a new romantic partner to the child for a minimum of 6 months of exclusive dating.

Neither parent may introduce a new romantic partner to the child without prior introduction of the new romantic partner to the other parent.

Neither parent may cohabitate with or bring a new romantic partner into their home with the child present (even if the child is sleeping) for a minimum of 6 months of exclusive dating.

Neither parent may cohabitate with or bring a new romantic partner into their home with the child present (even if the child is sleeping) without prior introduction of the new romantic partner to the other parent.

Any objection by one parent to the other parent’s new romantic partner meeting the child or being present in the same home as the child under the above guidelines shall be settled by using a mutually agreed-upon, neutral third-party (such as a mediator, counselor, or other professional) to resolve any dispute before filing a court action. This shall not apply in the event of an emergency or abusive circumstance.

There will be no concessions made to the above guidelines unless the parents agree in writing.

Social Media Clause:

Neither parent may post images of the child to social media in open forum.

Neither parent may post identifying information (name, address, schedule, date-of-birth, etc.), preferences (favorite foods, activities, etc.), or any other information which may be used maliciously to entice or otherwise endanger the wellbeing of the child, by an unknown or anonymous third party, to social media in open forum.

There will be no concessions made to the above guidelines unless the parents agree in writing (including electronic communication, such as text message or e-mail).
Posted By: Traveler Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/30/19 07:01 PM
Originally Posted by "Lumis"
Regarding the psych eval - my W has untreated mental health issues. This is clear as day.

This one sounded reasonable. If both of you are okay, it's quick and easy to sign off on.

Originally Posted by "Lumis"
I will post the full statement and note that she was in FULL agreement with all of it. She didn't bat an eye - she wanted the exact same things from me and we mutually felt they were in the best interest of our D:

All is cool if you're both on the same page 100%.

Posted By: lumis70 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/30/19 07:06 PM
Originally Posted by CWarrior
Originally Posted by "Lumis"
Regarding the psych eval - my W has untreated mental health issues. This is clear as day.

This one sounded reasonable. If both of you are okay, it's quick and easy to sign off on.

Originally Posted by "Lumis"
I will post the full statement and note that she was in FULL agreement with all of it. She didn't bat an eye - she wanted the exact same things from me and we mutually felt they were in the best interest of our D:

All cool then. If you're both on the same page 100% it's not a control issue.



Thanks for the clarifications - it's tough to include the emotions behind the decisions we are making. She is a good mother, but mental illness is no joke, be it the addictive behaviors or otherwise. Safeguards that aren't intrusive on our normal lives are the goal and I would be completely open to any she suggested for me (though she hasn't suggested anything).
Posted By: lumis70 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/31/19 02:10 AM
W asked if she could come over, and then we go to dinner tonight. Feeling a little uneasy overall after being lied to yesterday, but given the situation with her grandmother, I'm going to try and suck it up and just have a decent time.
Posted By: lumis70 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/31/19 10:52 PM
We went to dinner, and she again brought up the topic of dating (others). She started by saying things like 'regardless of whether we are legally separated or just separated, we are not together'. I asked her once more if she had broken our commitment to not date, and she said she hadn't. I couldn't stand it and I dropped the OM's name; she started crying. She denied many of the things he told me, but she was appalled at the way he spoke of her behind her back (i.e. 'I bet she's a great F', 'I'm not looking to date her', calling her a hypocrite, etc.) and thanked me for calling her out on her dishonesty (I was FLOORED at this...).

I told her that I cared little about the date, and more about the lying; reminding her that honesty in raising our child was going to be a major requirement to work together. I explained that I understood what she meant by needing space, and I felt as if I did as well now. In order to get legal structure in-place, we will be filing for separation this week.

She indicated that she was interested in 'dating' me, but just wanted to make it clear that we were not going to be exclusively dating and that she would likely be seeing others. I told her that she was more than welcome to remind herself how fun the dating world is (not in a sarcastic way), but to be safe. We set some boundaries - electing not to reveal information when/if asked about dating is fine, don't overshare details unless asked, etc. The bottom line was, just don't lie to each other.

We talked about our marriage and how the basic foundation had been eroded though both of our actions in the past - rebuilding anything would require starting from scratch rather than building atop sand (which we both tied into her choice of moving back in for 3 weeks, and pretending everything was fine). It was a weird dinner, but I think we left feeling better than it started. She hugged me and kissed me when we got home, and left without coming inside. She indicated this morning that clearing the air felt good.

We talked a little bit about the possibility of having sex. We both felt comfortable with each other physically, but we made it clear that should we go down this route, we both understand not to read too much into it. Nothing came of this that night.

Today, she came over with our D earlier than the exchange time to hang out as a family. She mentioned filing papers and I had a minor breakdown, excusing myself to the restroom before she noticed. My D followed me to the bathroom door, and then my W followed my D and heard me cry. I asked that she not let our D see me, and that I just needed a moment. She said she didn't understand, and that I was getting 'everything I wanted'. I just said that I was sad and needed a moment. After I regained composure, we didn't end up doing much aside from putting out D down for a nap (D was grumpy!).

W asked if I would like to watch some TV together so we did. In about 2 hours, we cycled around between some physical contact (lying near or beside her), her not wanting contact, her initiating contact (holding my hand), her refusing contact when I reached my hand out later, exchanging foot-rubs, etc. It was all over the board.

When she left, she said 'I don't even know what we are doing, I was ready to file for divorce, and still am, so I don't understand this separation.' I just said 'neither of us knows where we will be in a year' and she said 'yeah, that's very true'. She talked about probably taking a 2-3 day retreat in the near future and just spending the time writing her thoughts in a journal over the time away. We talked about this last night too, and both agreed that it has always been massively beneficial to her in the past. We had a good hug, and she left. The departing mood wasn't as good as the night prior, but it wasn't awful.

Actions speak louder than words - we effectively went on a date last night, she came over early today, she stayed after our D went to sleep, and she reached out to hold my hand today. I'll take any small victories I can get.

In this moment, I am looking forward to having some legal structure in place this week that is NOT a full-blown divorce. I believe this will at least give me some relief for looming concerns (the home, our D's schedule, money, etc.). With those resolved amicably, I think I can work on myself in a more focused manner. The erratic behavior lately has given me great cause for concern about the legal paperwork, which is why we are filing as quickly as possible.
Posted By: lumis70 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 08/31/19 11:26 PM
Reflecting now, I'm realizing I probably should have validated a bit when she said 'I don't even know what we are doing, I was ready to file for divorce, and still am, so I don't understand this separation.' Not sure the best way to have done it... but that was definitely a missed opportunity.
Posted By: lumis70 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 09/02/19 02:08 AM
I’ve been replying with short replies today such as “good, thanks!” And such and she finally called me out on it saying “what’s with the short replies today, it’s making me anxious”.

What do I say to this when directly confronted?
Posted By: DS9 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 09/02/19 06:21 AM
Originally Posted by lumis70
I’ve been replying with short replies today such as “good, thanks!” And such and she finally called me out on it saying “what’s with the short replies today, it’s making me anxious”.

What do I say to this when directly confronted?


I'd say nothing mate. Or, if you have to, maybe just "I'm busy".
Posted By: lumis70 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 09/02/19 09:53 PM
Phone actually died on me, so I was able to say that. Worked out well. She explained today during exchange of our D that she felt like I was ghosting her, not here for her, etc. So confusing when, in the same conversation, she said she was uncomfortable with how close I was sitting to her.

It was a calm meet up with some family time at a park. She agreed to another 'family date' tomorrow night at a restaurant, but I will allow her to bring it up tomorrow. I've noticed these pre-planned events are usually the ones she tries to back out of, so if she just drops off our D after I'm done at work, I'll just roll with it.
Posted By: LH19 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 09/02/19 10:30 PM
You are doing an awful lot of pursuing and allow her to cake eat. Have you read DR or DB?
Posted By: lumis70 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 09/03/19 12:18 AM
I am reading DR right now. Compared to where I was 2 months back, I've made HUGE progress away from pursuing, but I have a lot of work ahead of me.
Originally Posted by lumis70
I've noticed these pre-planned events are usually the ones she tries to back out of, so if she just drops off our D after I'm done at work, I'll just roll with it.


Back out first.
Posted By: lumis70 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 09/03/19 09:11 PM
So tonight, we planned to have dinner out together with our D. She confirmed via text today saying "Hello! Are we still doing family dinner tonight?". I replied "Yeah that sounds good!". After this, she did her daily check in:

W: How is work?
Me: It's okay, thanks
W: Just okay?
Me: Yeah
W: Everything okay?
Me: I'll be fine
W: Just having a hard day?
Me: I'll be okay
W: Okay

You're saying I should just back out of the dinner tonight?
Posted By: LH19 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 09/03/19 10:39 PM
L,

Do you think being mopey and saying you are having a hard day is attractive or unattractive?

Why are you having family time when she fired you as her husband? Do you enjoy the friend zone?

If you want this to turn around she has to miss you. Only way for that to happen is time and space.
Posted By: lumis70 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 09/03/19 10:48 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
L,

Do you think being mopey and saying you are having a hard day is attractive or unattractive?


Unattractive, of course. I'm trying to apply what I'm learning here with the closed-ended answers. Should I be just saying "I'm doing great!" after waiting a while or what? I tried to keep the answers fairly neutral but when she outright says "...having a hard day?" it's like she's testing me and I'm having trouble scoring higher than about a D-average here.

Originally Posted by LH19
Why are you having family time when she fired you as her husband? Do you enjoy the friend zone?


Because I'm having an overwhelmingly difficult time detaching from my W in situations where I see it being beneficial to my D. My D likes to go out to eat, my W says she wants to go out on dates, and our family time is, for the most part, positive.

Originally Posted by LH19
If you want this to turn around she has to miss you. Only way for that to happen is time and space.


I'll cancel on dinner tonight. She is dropping off my D in about 2 hours. We are signing our parenting plan document and then I'll just let her know that I'll pass on dinner tonight.
Posted By: lumis70 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 09/03/19 11:05 PM
When we were first dating, I was definitely in her friend zone. We knew each other two years before dating and it's tough to do the opposite now, as I pursued her HARD at the beginning of our relationship and it was what got her to come around and give me a shot.

Also, when she has left in the past and returned, she has always thanked me for fighting so hard for her in the aftermath. These behaviors I have are something that has been reinforced over our entire relationship, and this is why I'm having such a rough time with this.

Not sure how to cancel on dinner face-to-face without it sounding mopey or sad given we will have just signed the parenting plan. I don't want to be mean, but she IS going to question why I want to cancel... and aside from saying I'm short on money (she might say it's on her, then), I'm having trouble coming up with a good way out.
Posted By: LH19 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 09/03/19 11:14 PM
Sorry this is late notice but something came up and I can’t make dinner.
Posted By: lumis70 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 09/03/19 11:26 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
Sorry this is late notice but something came up and I can’t make dinner.


She is driving our D over, we are signing paperwork in person, and we were driving in one car to get dinner. She knows I have my D tonight so you can see the bind I'm in. I honestly feel sick to my stomach given the paperwork signing... I don't wanna sound like I'm bailing because I'm ill... but it wouldn't really be a lie - I have zero appetite at the moment.
Posted By: lumis70 Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 09/04/19 12:35 AM
I cancelled on dinner over text - said that our D and I will just eat at home tonight. She replied 'did I do something to upset you?'. My lord she is good at trying to start fights.

I don't even know what to say back... and I still haven't replied.
Posted By: job Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning - 09/04/19 12:58 AM
New Thread:

Filing paperwork this week for legal separation
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