Link to Part 1:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2841771Link to Part 2:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2842502Link to Part 3:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2845184Link to Part 4:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2850893Summary to date:
W was unhappy in 2018 and probably a few years earlier about her lack of career advancement, responsibilities of being a mother and wife, and lack of connection in our MR. She became involved in an EA with a co-worker in August. She was going to an IC without my knowledge and came to the determination that I was the cause of her unhappiness. BD and IHS in November. I made all of the classic mistakes of begging, pleading, doing all the chores (super husband), etc. She became obsessed with her physical appearance. Spending money on facial treatments, anti-aging creams, manicures, pedicures, etc. She was seduced by a 25 year old pickup artist (OM1) at a downtown bar and had a PA a couple weeks later which evolved into a limerant relationship. W went deeply underground with her smartphone when I found out and confronted. She has experienced the highest of highs when OM contacts her and the lowest of lows when ignored. She is full blown GGW and is currently cycling between at least 5 OM. W has distanced herself from anyone of strong moral character and primarily interacts with a recently divorced woman that became her BFF last year. W bought her own house and moved out in early April. We have arranged 50/50 custody of our kids, S8 and D4, rotating every few days.
I would characterize myself of experiencing PTSD symptoms after BD/PA discovery for about 4 months. Way too much pursuit, pressure, and R talk. I became obsessed with snooping and trying to identify and over-analyze everything that went wrong in our MR that led us to this state. In doing so, I pushed her farther and farther away. I've heard just about every WW catch phrase from her along with way. She has re-written our MR history and focuses on all the negatives. I've been doing a much better job of GAL and detaching since late February. Contact right now is like a business relationship, mostly limited to co-parenting and logistics. I confronted her in early May about no longer living in an open marriage. Her response was basically laughter and she said if you want a divorce, then she's all for it. That night she sent me an email requesting that I gather all of my financial records and decide what items I want to keep by the end of May. She hasn't mentioned it since.
The EAs/PAs with multiple OM continue. When we do interact, she generally treats me nice. I am securely in the friend zone as I’ve allowed her to cake eat this entire time with her horse at our marital home. I am living in limbo which [censored], but I’m having a great time with my kids when they are with me. Also getting out doing activities I enjoy and spending time with friends.
I feel that I’m at a crossroads, some days I just want to file for D because I don’t trust her and don’t know if I ever will be able to again. Other days I think maybe I need to continue giving her Time and Space. My son specifically asked me not to quit. So, I’m torn between doing what’s right and in line with my morals versus my kids hopes and my dreams of what a happy future our family could have if she ended her affairs and wanted to R.
I feel that I’m at a crossroads, some days I just want to file for D because I don’t trust her and don’t know if I ever will be able to again. Other days I think maybe I need to continue giving her Time and Space. My son specifically asked me not to quit. So, I’m torn between doing what’s right and in line with my morals versus my kids hopes and my dreams of what a happy future our family could have if she ended her affairs and wanted to R.
curtis, first, why wouldn't you file for D?
Your S8 asked you not to quit. Hmmm. What if he asked you to drink poison? Would you do it? Or would you explain to him how detrimental that would be? Now I am not saying to tell your S8 how bad his mom is. But sitting him down to explain that your life has to move on and he will understand one day would be the better approach.
Because you have hopes and dreams of what a happy future with your family could be IF she ended her affairs and wanted to R? And she couldn't do that after you file for D? During the D? After the D? That isn't an excuse.
Further, you don't want to R with HER, at least as she is now, you have a romantic delusion of HER as she used to be. sandi says "the girl you married is gone!" You have to assume she is never coming back. Even if this multiple cheating version wanted to R, could you trust that it was because she was her old self again? Or because she likes having her horses (cake) there??
You are at a crossroads only because you are stalling. You know what to do. You need to move on. I do not advocate most LBSs filing for D because that is doing the WAS's dirty work. But you are not in the same sitch as most. I'd think about it.
Final thought. We teach people how to treat us. And our kids learn from us. What are your S & D learning by the way you are handling your sitch?
Fast-forward 20 years. And one or both of them are in a similar situation as you. What would you want them to do?
That´s the main concern. You are a role model for your children.
You need to stand for yourself and get your respect back Curtis. Be proud of what you have done. You keep that fight. But you need to move on. Value yourself as your children value you.
Keep strong there man!
Better late than never and knowing that I didn’t give her a direct choice. I don’t see how it could backfire, I’ve already lost her and she’s cheating, I feel I’m already living the worst ending. How much worse can it get?
So how does this command respect?
Steve, great question. This depends on what I include in my confrontation script, i.e. if I expose knowledge of her continued A’s which she believes have been kept secret from me. Yes, I may have waited too long. My love for her made me delusional. I accepted her bad choices and hoped she would wake up and exit the fog on her own and within my timeline.
This shows that I’m a man that respects himself to no longer be part of MR that involves a third party. Even if I’m no longer important to her, I’m important to myself, I’m moving forward, and I don’t need her to live a wonderful life.
curtis, first, why wouldn't you file for D?
Reflecting on the big picture of my sitch, I feel that simply filing for D is weak. It gives the impression that I just gave up on my fight and stand with a meek exit. I want to regain some respect and let her know why I have decided to take the action of filing. It’s as much for me as it is her and I don’t want to go out like a whimpering dog with his tail between his legs.
Your S8 asked you not to quit. Hmmm. What if he asked you to drink poison? Would you do it? Or would you explain to him how detrimental that would be? Now I am not saying to tell your S8 how bad his mom is. But sitting him down to explain that your life has to move on and he will understand one day would be the better approach.
Parents make many personal sacrifices for their children. My kids gave me much of the strength I needed to standby this long. I do want to do right in his eyes; however, I agree he’ll understand when I decide to take action. He has seen the turmoil I’ve been through and how hard I’ve fought and changed to become the best version of myself, AMOAFWL.
Because you have hopes and dreams of what a happy future with your family could be IF she ended her affairs and wanted to R? And she couldn't do that after you file for D? During the D? After the D? That isn't an excuse.
Sure, we could R after filing or during the D. I’m not so sure about after D. I place such high value on commitment and the sanctity of MR and once that ends I don’t know if I could find the forgiveness to R.
Further, you don't want to R with HER, at least as she is now, you have a romantic delusion of HER as she used to be. sandi says "the girl you married is gone!" You have to assume she is never coming back. Even if this multiple cheating version wanted to R, could you trust that it was because she was her old self again? Or because she likes having her horses (cake) there??
You’re right, not with who she is now. Trust would take a LONG time to rebuild. She would have to show genuine change through consistent actions for me to see that the girl I married had returned.
You are at a crossroads only because you are stalling. You know what to do. You need to move on. I do not advocate most LBSs filing for D because that is doing the WAS's dirty work. But you are not in the same sitch as most. I'd think about it.
I know that you are more pro-MR than most on here and advocate earning your way out of the MR. I must have really portrayed my WW to be a monster in this sitch. Of course, cheating with multiple partners and ripping a family apart while cake eating the entire time is not the typical sitch. When you are in the thick of it, it’s not always easy to see reality from the inside and it’s helpful to read and hear the assessment of observers.
Final thought. We teach people how to treat us. And our kids learn from us. What are your S & D learning by the way you are handling your sitch?
Well, from me they are learning that you don’t cut and run when the going gets tough. They are learning the meaning of commitment, love, and forgiveness. They are learning that you do everything in your power to stand for what you believe in. They will also learn that once you’ve given all you could, it’s okay to move on. You can’t control others and respect that they are free to make their own choices. We will emerge as better people regardless of the outcome.
You are a role model for your children.
You need to stand for yourself and get your respect back Curtis. Be proud of what you have done. You keep that fight. But you need to move on. Value yourself as your children value you.
Nef, thanks for the encouragement. I am proud of my journey. While I never would wish this upon anyone, I have grown so much as a man and a husband. I’ll probably never fully understand women, but I have discovered my shortcomings and learned what it takes to have a healthy relationship. I am a better father and have grown closer to God. All of these things make me appreciate that I went through this life changing situation...and I haven’t lost all hope that my MR could be stronger than ever if we were to R.
Curtis,
You've come a long way. Keep going! I like your last post. You've thought this through and I see both your perspective and Steve's. Do what you think is best. Good luck.
Journaling.
GAL was fun over the weekend. W had the kids. I played volleyball on Friday night, then went out with a friend after for food and drinks. On Saturday, I worked out, then met up with some co-workers and we went to a sketch comedy show. Very funny, I enjoyed having some good laughs. On Sunday, I worked out again, then did some projects around the house until the kids came back over with W from her place.
I placed the kid’s summer camp shirts in her car for the field trip this week. There was a book on the seat. I won’t give the title as it’s against forum rules but it’s about stop trying to be "positive" all the time to become better, happier people. It’s a counterintuitive self-help book about learning what to care about and what not to care about.
W fed the horses while I was cleaning the pool filter, then came up to me to tell me that S8 was grounded. She started to talking about him not respecting boundaries. I thought to myself, yes, and there are consequences for violating boundaries, but I didn’t bring that up.
She went on to talk about how her horse was gaining a lot of weight and that morphed into her saying she was putting on some weight as well. My W is very slim and athletic and has always had a fast metabolism to the extent of being able to eat whatever she wants without having to worry about her figure. She lifted her shorts slightly to show me her thighs. I don’t see any weight gain and didn’t pay much attention, just validated.
She went on to say that she thinks she finally recovered from her hospital stay and it’s going to force her to start working out again. 4 years ago, my W had a life threatening infection while she was breastfeeding our D. She spent 9 days in the hospital and they pumped her full of every antibiotic you can think of trying to combat it. I really think these drugs affected her hormones and chemical balance for a long time, but now she says she’s recovered, so I guess that’s good. Maybe that means my W of 4 years ago will come back.
I finished up the weekend by cooking dinner for the kids, then reading some books to them before bedtime. I love my kids so much, things just feel more right when they are home.
Let’s call that post part 1, part 2 will include scripts for the possible confrontation that gives her the choice.
OK, here is where part 2 begins. I have compiled scripts and excerpts from my research on 100's of sitches. The posts that follow will be broken up into several parts by groups of members due to the length. DBers may benefit from these consolidated scripts at some point in the future. Hopefully, others find this to be a helpful resource.
For me personally, I'm still working on my script and will share to receive community feedback soon.
I've been thinking a long time about what to say to my WW and my subsequent actions. I am debating 1) whether to mention the A's/OM and 2) going NC for a period of time or filing for D after stating my position. On the former, it lets her know that I really know what's going on and what she's done, but I'm not sure it's worth even giving the OM any attention. On the latter, I don't know that a period of NC will shake her from the fog. I feel the A's would continue to run their course. I'm okay with the outcome of D based on everything I've gone through. I've accepted that. So, starting the D process will be moving my life forward.
Here are the scripts that I am considering. The first two are hard stance bust the affair scripts largely based on PuppyDogTails and Robx posts. The last two are more cool deliveries of accepting things as they are and calmly stating what I've decided largely based on Bustorama posts:
1) "Maybe you should sit down, we need to talk about something. I know all about you and the OM and it needs to stop. It's incredibly disrespectful to me, to our marriage, and to our family. We always taught our kids the importance of honesty; I've decided that WHATEVER happens with us, I am going to insist on that in our family moving forward. If contact with the OM does not immediately cease, I want nothing more to do with you and I will prepare to take steps for D."
2) "Maybe you should sit down, we need to talk about something. From now on I'm moving in this direction, if you want to come along, go ahead, I won't control you and tell you that can or can't come but I can't wait for you anymore and you already know that if you're with the OM, you aren't with me, I'm not settling for anything less than that. If you really want to be with the OM, I really can't say or do anything to stop that and you should be with him if you're willing to lie so much to me, if you can't be true to me that means he's more important to you than I am and you know what... I'm ok with that because I'm more important to me and that's all that matters - I see that now. If you wanted to be with me, you knew that you had alot of trust to rebuild and that's only through consistent action and I'm through with pressuring you to be my wife, I don't want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with me and that's pretty much what it looks like to me so let's stop playing games: you go and be with the OM, I'm ok with that, in fact I'm better than OK, I'm awesome because I'm finally being honest with myself about all of this and that includes being honest about who you are and where you are right now. I know what I'm worth and I've been settling for less for too long. I can't wait for you anymore, I've spent enough time waiting for you to do the right thing and I know that doesn't work because I would probably have to wait forever and still not get what I wanted. So you can do what you want, be with the OM, I hope he makes you happy and I'm going to start wanting something better for me."
3) "Maybe you should sit down, we need to talk about something. I have decided that this separation is no longer working for me. I know what I'm worth and I've been settling for less for too long. I can't wait for you anymore, I've spent enough time waiting for you to do the right thing and I know that doesn't work because I probably would have to wait forever and still not get what I wanted. People make their own choices, I do not own you, you are free to make your own choices and I respect your decision to not work on our marriage. I would have preferred to work things out, but I understand that is not what you want. So, I am letting you go and moving forward with my life. I will be putting my things in order to file for divorce. I think you should find another place for our horse as soon as possible. I want NO CONTACT with you except for emergency stuff about the kids to make it easier for me to move on."
4) "Maybe you should sit down, we need to talk about something. I have decided that this is no longer working for me. I have neglected my wants and needs and pushed my values and beliefs aside for far loo long hoping you would do the right thing. I realize that I could be waiting my entire life for that to happen and that's not fair to me or our family. I accept that you don't want to be with me and that's okay because I don't want to be with someone that doesn't want to be with me either. I respect myself too much to remain married to someone who doesn't want me. I have decided to move forward with my life. Please do not contact me unless it's an emergency related to the kids as I feel that's what I need to move on. I think you should find another place for our horse as soon as possible. Please prepare your requests for a settlement so we can get moving on the D."
I wanted to run these by the board for feedback as I'm thinking about delivering these messages soon. Thanks in advance.
1-4 all suck.
You don't say anything. Talk is cheap. We tell LBSs all the time...don't say.....do!
So what can you do? Stop thinking about what to say and think about what you can do?
Here are some questions: How much are you charging her for boarding of the horses? Have you talked to a L? Does she have a key and come and goes as she wants? If so, why? I know early on there was talk about not being able to afford the house without her, is that still the case? If so why not put the house up for sale?
Any words you say will be weak and not commanding of respect without action. Actions speak louder than words.
ACTION...NOT WORDS.
How about:
This arrangement isn’t working for me anymore. I have decided to move forward with the D process and would like us to come to an agreement on custody and finances so the lawyers don’t take all our money.
Less is more.
Well, some version of them all worked for others here in the past. I'm not saying to deliver just the words. It is a starting point that prompts the action. For instance, in Puppy's case, he told his W he knew about her affair, then followed up by filing for D when she refused to end the A. In Bustorama's case, he told his W he was basically done, went NC for many weeks, then moved on to D. Both of them R.
So what can you do? Stop thinking about what to say and think about what you can do?
Here are some questions: How much are you charging her for boarding of the horses? Have you talked to a L? Does she have a key and come and goes as she wants? If so, why? I know early on there was talk about not being able to afford the house without her, is that still the case? If so why not put the house up for sale?
I can demand the horse is off the property, go NC, and/or file for D.
I'm still not charging for the horse. I've spoken with a L twice, may call again today to initiate some paperwork. She does have a key, but doesn't step foot in the house without asking first. I can probably afford the house without her but that would require giving up a lot of luxuries (travel, extra savings, dining out, etc.). I like my home and so do my kids, not ready to uproot them.
I think you should find another place for our horse as soon as possible. I want NO CONTACT with you except for emergency stuff about the kids to make it easier for me to move on."
If you're going to file, just file the D, send her the copy for her review with this message on a post it note. But call it "the" horse and not "our" horse.
Here's the thing Curtis, you spent so much time engrossed in her and put up with so much crap that now you are running the full opposite way. It's one extreme to the other, which is why I think you are getting some flack here. I can tell you really want her back. I know it, I feel it, sense it, whatever.
I think you should go NC with her, save for kids emergencies. Tell her to only contact you in case of emergency. And when she calls about something that's not an emergency, you tell her this is not an emergency and hang up. You need to do this for a little while IMO.
If you're going to file, just file the D, send her the copy for her review with this message on a post it note. But call it "the" horse and not "our" horse.
Akkk, that was a typo, should have been "your" not "our".
Here's the thing Curtis, you spent so much time engrossed in her and put up with so much crap that now you are running the full opposite way. It's one extreme to the other, which is why I think you are getting some flack here. I can tell you really want her back. I know it, I feel it, sense it, whatever.
I think you should go NC with her, save for kids emergencies. Tell her to only contact you in case of emergency. And when she calls about something that's not an emergency, you tell her this is not an emergency and hang up. You need to do this for a little while IMO.
It may seem like I've gone from one extreme to the other. However, detachment has been improving for many months. There were occasional backslides and I certainly did not DB perfectly. I have slowly transformed since BD and it hasn't been an immediate 180. I have finally come to see reality for what it is and who she is right now. This plan has been in the works and I've extended my timeline because I thought there were some positive signs. However, I was fooled several times. I tried to be patient, but the disrespect is unending.
You get to a point where you can no longer tolerate being lied to, disrespected, cheated on, etc. It's saying to her: "I don't care what you do or who you do it with. You do what you want. I'm done. I want and deserve a better life for myself."
Everything I have discovered about her is so despicable and yet I do want her back. It makes no sense. I want a version of her back that no longer exists. I'm sick of the crap, the continued lies, deceit, and betrayal. I no longer feel like being a pawn in her game of multiple lives with OM. Each being fed a different story for her selfish desires. Getting the horse off property and NC with her will help me move forward. I don't want to see or speak with her. I understand your point on slowing down and trying NC. I plan to make my intentions known as respecting her choice and cutting off contact. Still mulling over the D filing in parallel decision. There are some factors in play that I need to discuss with a L.
How about:
This arrangement isn’t working for me anymore. I have decided to move forward with the D process and would like us to come to an agreement on custody and finances so the lawyers don’t take all our money.
Less is more.
LH, thanks for the feedback. Goals of the message are for it to come across as confident and decisive, regain some respect for myself, and be accepting of her choice.
Updated script:
"This arrangement isn’t working for me anymore. I respect your decision to not work on our MR. I would have preferred to work things out, but I understand that is not what you want. I respect myself too much to continue waiting for someone that doesn't want to be with me. I realize that I could be waiting forever for that to happen and that's not fair to us or our family. I have decided to move forward with the D process and would like us to come to an agreement on custody and finances so the lawyers don’t take all our money. I think you should find another place for your horse as soon as possible. Only contact me if it's an emergency related to the kids as I feel that's what I need to move on."
Updated script:
"This arrangement isn't working for me anymore. I respect your decision to not work on our MR. I would have preferred to work things out, but I understand that is not what you want. I respect myself too much to continue waiting for someone that doesn't want to be with me. I realize that I could be waiting forever for that to happen and that's not fair to us or our family. I have decided to move forward with the D process and would like us to come to an agreement on custody and finances so the lawyers don't take all our money. I think you should find another place for your horse as soon as possible. Only contact me if it's an emergency related to the kids as I feel that's what I need to move on."
First I would suggest talking to a lawyer and preparing a settlement agreement yourself. THEN talk to her. "W, this separation isn't working for me and I've decided to proceed with D. I've consulted a lawyer and here are the settlement papers, please review them and let me know if you are in agreement. Please find another place for your horse as soon as possible and let's limit contact from now on to either issues related to the kids or the divorce settlement."
Please understand you should NOT do this to "wake her up" because it probably won't.
Well, some version of them all worked for others here in the past. I'm not saying to deliver just the words. It is a starting point that prompts the action. For instance, in Puppy's case, he told his W he knew about her affair, then followed up by filing for D when she refused to end the A. In Bustorama's case, he told his W he was basically done, went NC for many weeks, then moved on to D. Both of them R.
But in both of those cases they filed because they were done with the BS and ready to move on. I'm not sure you are there yet, it sounds like for you this is just a trick to get her back. In that regard it will fail, and then what? You'll say "oops sorry I want a do-over, I'm not proceeding with D after all." Don't do that. Think long and hard about this, take a few weeks or even months to sort out if this (divorce) is really what you want. Because it probably IS what she wants, and she will fully support you doing all the work for her.
"This arrangement isn’t working for me anymore! I respect and accept your decision to not make our Marriage a priority. I respect myself too much to continue waiting for someone that doesn't want to be with me. I realize that I could be waiting forever for that to happen and that’s not what I want. I have decided to move forward with the D process and would like us to come to an agreement on custody and finances, keeping this process as simple as possible. I think you should find another place for your horse as soon as possible. Only contact me if it's an emergency in relation to our kids as I feel that's what I need to move on."
More to the point and less explaining.
OK, I'm with you now Curtis. Just be brief if you say anything. I still prefer the post it attached to D papers.
I still say action is better than words:
Filing for D and having her served > saying "I am moving forward with D."
Not answering your calls or texts unless questions directly about kids > saying "I think we should have no contact except for the kids."
Giving her a legal document stating the horse has to be moved > saying to her "You need to move the horse somewhere else."
COMMAND RESPECT.
I am going to jump in here Curtis . You TELL her “ I am not continuing with this situation. You have chosen someone else over me . My choice is to “ insert what you want moving forward without her in any way “ and do it . You are a great guy and deserve better . You can do it
First I would suggest talking to a lawyer and preparing a settlement agreement yourself. THEN talk to her. "W, this separation isn't working for me and I've decided to proceed with D. I've consulted a lawyer and here are the settlement papers, please review them and let me know if you are in agreement. Please find another place for your horse as soon as possible and let's limit contact from now on to either issues related to the kids or the divorce settlement."
Please understand you should NOT do this to "wake her up" because it probably won't.
AS, I do like your suggestion of having a draft settlement agreement prepared when I deliver the message. It shows action has been taken, not just words. The wording is a bit too business like for me though. It’s important to me to tell her that I’m doing this out of respect for myself and that I accept her decision to not work on the MR. I feel that must be said for closure.
Well, some version of them all worked for others here in the past
But in both of those cases they filed because they were done with the BS and ready to move on. I'm not sure you are there yet, it sounds like for you this is just a trick to get her back. In that regard it will fail, and then what? You'll say "oops sorry I want a do-over, I'm not proceeding with D after all." Don't do that. Think long and hard about this, take a few weeks or even months to sort out if this (divorce) is really what you want. Because it probably IS what she wants, and she will fully support you doing all the work for her.
AS, I must say that you have a knack for getting the LBS to think long and hard before making a major decision. There have been a few occasions where I’ve read your posts and put the brakes on steps I thought I was ready to take. I appreciate that and I can see you are a strong supporter of giving these sitches time and letting them play out. Probably because you know that these affairs don’t last 9 times out of 10.
I am done with the BS and perpetual lies. This is not a trick and I am okay with the outcome of D at this point. I haven’t seen genuine change in her or desire to ever want to be with me again. Since BD, I have confirmed at least 3 PAs (and suspect at least 2 more), online dating with a few other men, sexting fantasies with people she’s never met, gaslighting, physical separation, loss of my kids 50% of the time, cake eating, and the selfishness persists. I just ask myself why would I elect to continue a MR with this person. Have you ever seen a WW come back and want to R with a track record such as hers? I would need a REAL apology where she feels remorse for the pain her choices caused me before I would entertain that notion. So far, I’ve received nothing more than a half-hearted fake apology for the ONS with the pickup artist way back on Valentine’s Day.
JoeJoe, Steve, Over, Tryhard, nice healthy debate on better wording and merits of actions instead. I appreciate the multiple POVs. It really helps me sort through this mess and gives me different perspectives and options to consider. I’m going to remain patient (maybe call it stalling as Steve wrote) until I’m comfortable with my decision.
There has been a new development that I’ll probably share sometime today once I have more time to type.
AS, I do like your suggestion of having a draft settlement agreement prepared when I deliver the message. It shows action has been taken, not just words. The wording is a bit too business like for me though. It's important to me to tell her that I'm doing this out of respect for myself and that I accept her decision to not work on the MR. I feel that must be said for closure.
That's fine just try not to get too emotional during the convo. "Businesslike" is actually a good attitude to strive for, because she will realize you're serious and not just trying to trick her into getting back together.
AS, I must say that you have a knack for getting the LBS to think long and hard before making a major decision. There have been a few occasions where I’ve read your posts and put the brakes on steps I thought I was ready to take. I appreciate that and I can see you are a strong supporter of giving these sitches time and letting them play out. Probably because you know that these affairs don’t last 9 times out of 10.
Quite right about affairs, they rarely last long. But I don't say that to suggest you bide your time to see if the affair peters out. It's really just to make sure your mind is in the right place. For me it took a good 18 months to get to the point where I knew for sure I was ready for D. There were times before that that I -thought- I was ready, but I was still going back and forth. There's no rush, just take your time and make sure you are ready. When you can think about D without anger or pain or sadness then you're getting there.
I am done with the BS and perpetual lies. This is not a trick and I am okay with the outcome of D at this point. I haven’t seen genuine change in her or desire to ever want to be with me again. Since BD, I have confirmed at least 3 PAs (and suspect at least 2 more), online dating with a few other men, sexting fantasies with people she’s never met, gaslighting, physical separation, loss of my kids 50% of the time, cake eating, and the selfishness persists. I just ask myself why would I elect to continue a MR with this person. Have you ever seen a WW come back and want to R with a track record such as hers?
As hard as it may be to believe, yes I have! But usually by the time they come around the LBS is done with them. For many WW's it's almost like a mental illness. They behave in ways completely out of character with who they were. Many of them eventually get "back to normal" and often can't even believe themselves that they did what they did. Often the damage is so bad that no matter how humble they are when they return it's not enough for the LBS. The LBS is understandably skeptical that they are really "healed" and won't just do it all over again.
Could it be possible that the fog is lifting??
This is a potentially MAJOR update in my sitch. Vets all said that WW had to hit rock bottom and feel real loss before anything would change. It's possible that just happened over the weekend.
Some background, W for the most part only associates with two other women since BD, divorced BFF and a mutual friend that has a very rocky MR herself. W went out to dinner with divorced BFF on Saturday night and received a call from our mutual friend saying that her husband was riding his motorcycle, got in an accident, and was being airlifted to the hospital.
W was debating whether or not to leave divorced BFF and go to the hospital to support her friend and she chose not to go. In W's defense, details were very sparse as she described it as to the severity of his condition. A few hours later some initial test results came back and it was determined that he was essentially brain dead. W texted me to let me know what had happened. She then called and we spoke for a few minutes about the tragic events and how awful our friend must be feeling.
Sunday morning, W decided she wanted to go to the hospital to be with her friend. However, she wasn't up for seeing visitors. Final test results came back and he was declared dead.
W called me to discuss how we could help out. She sounded distraught and somewhat frantic on the phone. The mutual friend has a S and D about the same age as our kids and W suggested that we watch them this week. She wanted to stay at my house and bring them over because she doesn't have enough space at her place. I thought about this for a minute and said I'm okay with that as long as you can respect my boundaries. She asked which boundaries are those and after a pause I replied not contacting OM by text or call on the property. She immediately responded no problem. She asked what other boundaries. I said that's the primary one I'm concerned about and again she immediately said no problem. Although, she did seem annoyed that I had to state the boundary and she started to say that I don't understand but this wasn't the time to get into it with the stress she's under. I told her well maybe at some point you could help me understand and she said sure.
W came over to feed her horse and I talked with her about the accident. She was extremely broken up about her friend and not being there for her. I could tell that she regrets the decision terribly and she asked me point blank if I though she was a bad friend for not going. I validated then said that she made the best decision she could with the information she had available. We continued to discuss what happened, I mostly listened to her and continued validating.
W took our kids to her place and she sent me a series of texts about her friend's relatives watching the kids so they wouldn't be coming to our place. Near the end of the text exchange I wrote "I'm glad you told me and appreciate you being honest about your feelings. I hope you can get some sleep. Good night." She replied "Good night. Sorry. I am using my typical avoidance behavior but being unconscious is my only reprieve from this overwhelming ugliness I feel inside me." I did not respond.
Expectations are very low, but this tragic death seems to have triggered something in my W that's opened her eyes to see the WW behavior. I'm probably not following DB techniques so well right now, but in light of the recent events and loss of life, there are more important matters at hand. A tragedy like this really makes you contemplate your life, your purpose, your dreams, etc. and shows you that life is short. Do you really want to be pining away to be with someone that doesn't want to be with you when it can all be over in an instant? Or is it worth it to continue fighting for that person when you realize they could be gone overnight and they are what is most important to you?
This takes us up through Sunday night. More to follow tomorrow...
C,
That is a tragic story and that reminds me more and more why I am not submitting to my urges to buy a motorcycle while being the father to two young children.
I guess I'm not following your rock bottom and feeling of loss analogy. This happened to your Ws friend not your W. Your W has felt zero loss. After everything she has done to you and your children, you can't muster up the strength to tell her she can't keep her horse at your house.
Right now she gets to run around with other men, see her horse and her children whenever she wants and knows you'll be waiting there with open arms if she so chooses to stop. I know you do a lot of research on this board to help in your situation. I suggest you start reading up on attraction. Why your w is attracted to men she can't have her way with.
Though a tradegdy. IMO it changes nothing.
Terrible decision curtis to try and control her with the OM boundary. First, you have no way to enforce that boundary. What are you going to do demand she show her phone to you on a regular interval?? I continue to see LBSs struggle with trying to control their WAS/WS. You can't. And when you try you cement to the WAS/WS that what they are doing is the right decision. Most WAS/WS are rebelling against control, especially WWs!! Imagine if you just agreed to letting her stay there with the kids and friends' kids? Imagine how much further you would have gotten, especially since it never came to fruition anyway!
The other reason you trying to control her is a bad idea, because WWs especially want what is forbidden. By forbidding her to do that, it makes her want to do it more. If she ever stays at your house again, you can bet she will contact him to spite you.
As far as this: I'm probably not following DB techniques so well right now
ALWAYS BE DBING!
The other reason you trying to control her is a bad idea, because WWs especially want what is forbidden. By forbidding her to do that, it makes her want to do it more. If she ever stays at your house again, you can bet she will contact him to spite you.
What to expound on this, curtis, since you may not have read much about my own sitch. During my 2005 sitch, I had put spyware on our home PC, that is how I caught my W's EA. She sent him a no contact email. Immediately said she wanted to fix our marriage. However, her heart was far from me. She was "in love" with him, or at least this trumped up image of him in her head.
In the weeks that followed, she felt like a caged animal. She started sending him email despite the fact that I could monitor the activity. It was like a big "screw you and your rules" to me.
I came home one night, went into the office, and uninstalled the spyware. I told her "you are free to do whatever you want to do."
The result? She no longer wanted to communicate with him, and that died out almost immediately. She committed back to our marriage, and overtime proved that commitment through consistent behavior.
curtis, drop all control efforts. You are still trying to control what you cannot. And it will work against you. Further, your WW isn't going to change over a weekend. Hope is good, expectations are bad. And I see expectations in your update. Her behavior will have to be consistent over a long period of time before you will ever be able to trust that she is having second thoughts related to her choices. Not a few moments of emotion over a weekend.
You were going to take some pretty strong actions last we talked. How are you coming on those?
Terrible decision curtis to try and control her with the OM boundary.
Steve, the boundary was not to control her, it was to protect myself. I went through hell when she was living with me and contacting OM in front of me. I was willing to help out the other family, but not willing to put up with crap that affects my emotions. The result, she has respected my boundary and left her phone in the car the past two nights.
Something has changed, it could be temporary, but I’ll expound on my update about last night.
That is a tragic story and that reminds me more and more why I am not submitting to my urges to buy a motorcycle while being the father to two young children.
I bought a bike when I was 21 and had it for 2 years. Never any real close calls, but I quickly realized it wasn’t worth the risk. Too many drivers that aren’t looking out for you. Always had to be in such a heightened sense of awareness with your surroundings which took away from the exhilaration. I wouldn’t even think about it with kids.
I guess I'm not following your rock bottom and feeling of loss analogy. This happened to your Ws friend not your W. Your W has felt zero loss. After everything she has done to you and your children, you can't muster up the strength to tell her she can't keep her horse at your house.
Yes, this happened to her friend, but the loss as I’m seeing it is W’s sense of self and realization on what she’s become. The fog is lifting, I don’t think this is the time for tough love. More details to follow in my next update.
Curtis, I'm not really following your logic here, are you saying that you think your W might be having second thoughts about leaving you after seeing how upset her friend was over losing her H? That might be true but I suspect that she'll return right back to being a normal WAS/WW after a little time passes and she gets over the initial shock. I wouldn't change a thing if I were you, just keep on DB'ing.
That is a tragic story and that reminds me more and more why I am not submitting to my urges to buy a motorcycle while being the father to two young children.
I bought a bike when I was 21 and had it for 2 years. Never any real close calls, but I quickly realized it wasn’t worth the risk. Too many drivers that aren’t looking out for you. Always had to be in such a heightened sense of awareness with your surroundings which took away from the exhilaration. I wouldn’t even think about it with kids.
That's your choice of course. I've been riding 48 years and on the street for 40 of those years. No accidents. I am hyper aware of everything going on around me when riding. It does not take away from the exhilaration for me. There are 4 to 5 thousand motorcycle deaths a year in the US. There are approximately the same number of pedestrian deaths and swimming deaths. By most people's logic we should all probably stop walking and swimming too. There are 3 times as many fall deaths, so for heaven's sake don't climb on anything.
Yes, this happened to her friend, but the loss as I’m seeing it is W’s sense of self and realization on what she’s become. The fog is lifting, I don’t think this is the time for tough love. More details to follow in my next update.
I don't think her fog is lifting, you're misinterpreting her emotional reaction to this. Don't let it lead you to bad decisions. It's fine to support her and listen and validate if she wants to talk about it. But she'll probably be getting plenty of support from OM too, so keep that in mind.
Terrible decision curtis to try and control her with the OM boundary.
Steve, the boundary was not to control her, it was to protect myself. I went through hell when she was living with me and contacting OM in front of me. I was willing to help out the other family, but not willing to put up with crap that affects my emotions. The result, she has respected my boundary and left her phone in the car the past two nights.
Something has changed, it could be temporary, but I’ll expound on my update about last night.
Man up. Be AMOAWL. And getting upset about her texting or messaging someone is not it. You act like she was screen sharing on a big screen TV as she messaged. If you are talking about always being on her phone, so what? We've all been through that. One of the biggest problems LBSs make is focusing on the wrong things.
And deep down, whether you want to admit it or not, it is about control.
Curtis - I agree with the others about misinterpreting your W's words and actions. I agree that supporting her through a difficult time is okay, but don't look for things that aren't there.
Regarding the boundary and control, MWD herself has an opinion! I heard this on a podcast where she was interviewed. In this case, she was talking about teenagers being sneaky (using it as an analogy for cheaters).
If you go to a teenage child and say "You are being sneaky, I am going to check your phone every day and I want to know what you are doing and who you are texting"... what are they going to do? They are going to go deeper underground. They will install apps that delete texts. They will get extra sneaky. And you will lose trust. Or they will abide by the rules but they will feel controlled and have resentment. In that case you trust them more, but at what price?
Your W is following your rules, but at what price?
the boundary was not to control her, it was to protect myself. I went through hell when she was living with me and contacting OM in front of me. I was willing to help out the other family, but not willing to put up with crap that affects my emotions. The result, she has respected my boundary and left her phone in the car the past two nights.
Curtis I am really sorry you are going through what you are going through. I can't imagine the pain of dealing with your W's choices and actions. I don't know how I would handle or tolerate your situation, and I feel a bit guilty giving you advice on something I don't have experience myself with. I know I would have intense jealousy for one.
However... I do have experience with emotional awareness and regulation. "Crap that affects my emotions" - of course it affects your emotions. Explore this -- do you feel like your W "makes" you feel a certain way? If so, you have given control of your emotions over to your W, and even worse, by adopting the attitude that your emotions are at the whim of another person, you will struggle to regain your emotional balance because you aren't putting in the hard work to achieve it.
I think Steve85 and other vets here are trying to give you advice on appropriate boundaries that work for situations like yours. They have been through the trials by fire. I'm not going to give you a hard time about the boundary you set because I do understand where you are coming from. You don't want your W flaunting things in your face. It triggers you. I get it. I'm just nudging you towards being able to handle these things with more emotional equanimity.
Continuing my update on the events from yesterday. W texted me in the morning asking if I heard from the friend whose husband died in the motorcycle accident. Then she started going into a bunch of hypothetical what if's that may have prevented it from occurring. I asked W how she was doing with all of it and she replied that she woke up and it hit her like a ton of bricks.
In the evening, W came over to feed the horse and came in the house to get the kids to stay at her place for the evening. We started a conversation about the accident again and W said she hates herself for not being there for her friend. I validated and told her she would have countless opportunities in the future to let her know how much she cares. W said "I like to think I have good ethics and morals, but I don't, I constantly make bad choices." and "I act upon instinctual urges."
Then, she broke down in tears. I went to her and hugged her for about a minute to try and comfort her. She did not pull away, she wrapped her arms around me, she remained in the embrace until I let her go. This is only the 3rd time I touched my W all year, the first 2 attempts (January and May) were unwanted/rejected, this time she appreciated the support.
She went on to talk about how she felt when her mother died when she was 19 and how she doesn't remember much of it as that time in her life was "erased" from her memory. W said she has a dangerous power of being able to block out painful experiences. She continued to talk about her adolescent years and dealing with her alcoholic mother that treated her like garbage leading up to her death from cancer.
We continued to talk, she wasn't in a hurry to leave. I think she stayed for about 2.5 hours before finally taking the kids to her place. Once she got back to her place and the kids were asleep, she texted me about random stuff for about an hour.
That takes us through Monday night.
Now many of you may think I'm delusional and that could be; however, I do sense that something has changed in her. What she was saying to me, her body language, the look in her eyes all tell me that she is starting or has finally realized that her behavior is not in line with her moral compass. I also think that she has gone NC with the OM...at least for the time being.
I'm not naive to think that 2 days of this new personality means she is back to normal and I know she could revert back to WW in an instant. Although, this could be a turning point where she is slowly drawn out of the fog. This doesn't mean she loves me or has any desire to work on the MR, but it could mean that she starts returning to live a life of higher moral character. I also need to keep my hopes in check as I realize this could be a short-term plea for emotional support as she is coping with the death of her friend's spouse.
Quick update, W continued to be very chatty over text on Tuesday. Topics were about the friend and her H’s death, kids upcoming school activities, her happiness regarding news that one of our friends from college just got engaged to an old GF from 15 years ago. On the latter, she texted “They are both still young and have lot of life left.”
She went on texting to ask what has happened with divorced BFF’s XH and his behavior since he already got remarried and now only wants his kids every other weekend. She texted “I can understand the marriage not working and being completely infatuated with this woman...but when he just essentially gave up his children?!“ She went on to text about a co-workers friend that started acting completely different and it turns out he had a brain tumor that was affecting his reasoning and judgment.
The two texts noted above got me thinking if she is trying to imply something about us. If so, makes me think we are at a turning point where she is having doubts about the S or is again justifying to herself that D is in her best interest. It could be that she is trying to assess how difficult her path home might be. I know mindreading and probably trying to look for something that has nothing to do with me.
W continued to text me for over an hour on Tuesday night after the kids went to bed. She kept saying she wants to help. Help by mowing the horse pastures, staining a cabinet light rail that I want to install under our wet bar cabinets, and assisting with dropping off the kids at camp in the morning when they are staying with me the night before. She texted “I want to help”, “Please let me help”, and “I’m always available to help”.
Text convo wrapped up with W saying she had a minor breakdown at work after hearing about the organ donation being completed on her friend’s deceased H. But then she was able to finally talk on the phone with her friend about the accident and everything which calmed her down.
On Wednesday...crickets. W was radio silent all day. We had planned to tell our kids in the evening about the friend’s death. W texted after work saying she’s being a coward and wants to put off telling them. I replied that’s fine and that I want to take the lead on telling them and we will do that together when she’s ready.
So, I don’t know where she’s at right now. 3 days of positive, regular interaction and 1 day back to dim, minimal contact. Was I just short-term emotional support or is she really struggling with her feelings and desires versus what she knows is morally right and decent?
I fear her coming out of the tunnel, then getting scared and running back in if she senses any pressure, i.e. the Squirrel Analogy, no sudden movements that might scare her off. Or do I try to gently guide her along and lead her to the safe Lighthouse?
We warned you. And your mind reading isn't going to help.
NO you do not gently guide her. curtis, you've been here long enough to know the basic principles. "Gently guiding" is pressure and pursuit. And it is control. All things you avoid.
The lighthouse is unmovable. Everyone knows where it is. If they want to go to the lighthouse they do it, but the lighthouse never goes to them.
Hi Curtis. Let me tell you something. Wayward world is all about ourselves, it´s all selfishness. Those are our prime feelings. So you can see your W devastated by what happened to her friend, her wanting to help and being elusive about talking to the kids about what happened...Do you see her devastated for what she´s done to the MR or to the family? Keep hope and expectations secured man.
As Steve says, just keep your light on.
Be strong Curtis, keep DB!
We warned you. And your mind reading isn't going to help.
NO you do not gently guide her. curtis, you've been here long enough to know the basic principles. "Gently guiding" is pressure and pursuit. And it is control. All things you avoid.
The lighthouse is unmovable. Everyone knows where it is. If they want to go to the lighthouse they do it, but the lighthouse never goes to them.
Steve, right now I feel somewhat duped. My hopes did rise in the past few days and I now I’m cycling back down. I’m going to re-post something from Part 3 of my sitch back in April that you shared with someone else (
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2846409#Post2846409):
“If you had a crystal ball and could see that if her A will end in July....that she would recommit to the marriage in Sept. and in a year from now you guys would be in the same bed, coparenting as spouses, going on weekly dates, what would you choose? Obviously you can't know that, but one of the things I've adopted for people going through this is: earn your way out of your marriage. IE, don't take the easy way out. Make sure you can look back and say to yourself, I did all I could do to try to save this marriage. It may come up later with your kids.”
I do hope the crystal ball is correct for my sitch and the death of her friend’s H ended the A in July and she will recommit in September. I was ready to take action to end the limbo until the recent events. Now, I’m considering extending my timeline again.
I plan to sit back, observe her actions, and take stock for the time being. Wait for her to come to me...patience, patience, patience.
Hi Curtis. Let me tell you something. Wayward world is all about ourselves, it´s all selfishness. Those are our prime feelings. So you can see your W devastated by what happened to her friend, her wanting to help and being elusive about talking to the kids about what happened...Do you see her devastated for what she´s done to the MR or to the family? Keep hope and expectations secured man.
As Steve says, just keep your light on.
Nef, you’re right, I see her feeling guilt and wanting to do things that make her feel better as a person, but I don’t see remorse for what she’s done to the MR. The light is on and the road home is paved and smooth if she wants that.
Was I just short-term emotional support
YES THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT IT IS AND WHAT WE TOLD YOU IT WAS!!!! I'm not yelling, just emphasizing that point
You're firmly in the friendzone with her. Emotional support when she needs it, nothing to her when she doesn't need it. It's interesting that you said you feel like you got duped, I think you did too, but not by her. Her actions are very consistent and predictable for a WAS. You were duped by your own feelings and expectations.
I fear her coming out of the tunnel, then getting scared and running back in if she senses any pressure, i.e. the Squirrel Analogy, no sudden movements that might scare her off. Or do I try to gently guide her along and lead her to the safe Lighthouse?
You see her as coming out of the tunnel? Based on what? Her words?
Think about the lighthouse's job. It shines a beam of light. It doesn't wade out into the stormy waters to
pull the sailor to shore. It firmly stands on solid ground and shines light. It's up to the sailor to follow the light to safety.
I think your idea of "gently guiding her" is you trying to
help her, and you are using these analogies. It sounds like the right thing to do to the ears of a LBH, however, it doesn't work like you see it. She has to figure it out on her own. You can't fix her, and I think that's what you are really wanting to do. ((hugs))
Whenever the LBH thinks his W is trying to get closer by more talking, or offering to do help with certain responsibilities or chores.......it seems to be a somewhat dangerous territory. By that, I mean that he lets down his guard b/c he wants to believe she is trying to work through her issues or whatever. Actually, he is scared to death to
not let her do whatever it is she has mentioned, b/c he fears it's the one time she may have a breakthrough........realization, start coming out of the fog, or whatever. The lines he has drawn begins to blur, b/c he's spending too much time letting her talk/text him, letting her come around the house, etc. First thing he knows, she has slithered under the door like a snake, and has done none of the necessary work. Guess what? That's what she is doing now............
slithering. This is JMHO.
Other than her one horse, are there any more horses or animals in the barn? See, you should have either had her to do all the chores connected to the upkeep of the horse.......or removed the horse from the property (unless there is a law the forbids it.) However, you were too soft-hearted when it came to her and the horse, so there were no clear cut lines about her having to take care of the responsibilities of the horse. You would say something, but there were no consequences, so if she didn't want to drive out there to take care of it, then she didn't.
Now......she is begging you to let her go so far as to cut the pasture. Are there any other animals, or just the one horse?
The horse (and swimming pool) have been her main reasons for coming to the house, since the separation. You knew this, and I think it's why you were so reluctant to draw hard lines about the horse. You were afraid she would no longer come at all, and you weren't emotionally ready. So now, you are faced with this situation of her wanting to jump in and "help more". It would have been easier if you had had a firm understanding about the horse when she first left. See what I mean?
I don't think she's ready to stick to anything on a regular basis, but rather everything will rely on her mood at that moment. If it inconveniences everyone else, that's too bad. She is wishy-washy and that's why you have to be wise and strongly planted in what is right & wrong. Otherwise, she's going to break your heart over & over again. One day she may want you to listen to her talk for hours. She may even suggest that the family go together and do this or that, but then she lets you & the kids down b/c something else distracted her attention.
Don't let her recent talks mislead you. I think having these long talk/texts play tricks on your heart. It pulls you in, and you become more emotionally attached. How about you limit how much you respond? I mean, you mentally put a time limit on these conversations. After 15 - 20 minutes, you have to go. You stop texting. You are involved in a project, a movie, book, hobby, or something other than using your time to respond to every text message from her. Don't be available all the time. Right now, you cannot think about gently guiding her back, b/c it
messes with your head. It's a game you are playing with yourself.
You're firmly in the friendzone with her. Emotional support when she needs it, nothing to her when she doesn't need it. It's interesting that you said you feel like you got duped, I think you did too, but not by her. Her actions are very consistent and predictable for a WAS. You were duped by your own feelings and expectations.
AS, very astute observation. You’ve been following my sitch from the beginning and I’ve had so few positives with WW to latch onto, just one kick in the balls after another. Providing her with emotional support and all the text convo really raised my spirits and made feel like we were connecting. I had not talked or communicated with her that much since before she moved out. It gave me a new hope. The LBS when scorned for so long has a tendency to jump at any perceived improvement in the R and say this is it, this is the turning point, the WAS is starting to warm up. Unfortunately it’s still about them and their selfishness, improved behavior must be demonstrated over a long period of time to believe it’s real.
This is the day 2 of her returning to low contact. Tonight she had a good excuse as she went to visit and is staying over with her recently widowed friend. We’ll see what tomorrow brings. W has the kids this weekend and it’s D4 soon to be D5’s birthday. I plan to make that very special for my sweet little girl.
C,
You can't connect with a woman who is actively sleep with other men. You are not her therapist you are her husband. What you are doing right now is actually lowering your chances of ever having a romantic relationship with her again. I think it's time to revisit your boundaries because right now you have none.
You see her as coming out of the tunnel? Based on what? Her words?
Yes, based mostly on her words along with her tears (an action). I know...can’t believe what she says. Her facial expressions, tone, and body language were a 180 from how I’ve seen her since WW began. I saw guilt for not being there for her friend and shame for herself for not following the moral code she thought she lived by. Now I probably read too much into that thinking it was about more than just her friend but also about what her choices have done to our MR. I felt she was finally able to see the damage she’s caused and the destruction in her wake.
Think about the lighthouse's job. It shines a beam of light. It doesn't wade out into the stormy waters to pull the sailor to shore. It firmly stands on solid ground and shines light. It's up to the sailor to follow the light to safety.
Point taken. The lighthouse is a fixed object. I thought I could be the lighthouse keeper. He’s mobile and can take his boat out to the sailor and say hey there are dangerous rocks over that way, but if you look this way through the fog you’ll see a beaming light. It’s the path to travel that leads you out of the storm to safe refuge.
I think your idea of "gently guiding her" is you trying to help her, and you are using these analogies. It sounds like the right thing to do to the ears of a LBH, however, it doesn't work like you see it. She has to figure it out on her own. You can't fix her, and I think that's what you are really wanting to do. ((hugs))
Yeah, I do want to help her. Waiting for her to figure it out on her own is the hard part. The LBH sees many simple solutions and just wants to shout, hey W why can’t you see, the answer is there, right in front of you!
Whenever the LBH thinks his W is trying to get closer by more talking, or offering to do help with certain responsibilities or chores.......it seems to be a somewhat dangerous territory. By that, I mean that he lets down his guard b/c he wants to believe she is trying to work through her issues or whatever. Actually, he is scared to death to not let her do whatever it is she has mentioned, b/c he fears it's the one time she may have a breakthrough........realization, start coming out of the fog, or whatever. The lines he has drawn begins to blur, b/c he's spending too much time letting her talk/text him, letting her come around the house, etc. First thing he knows, she has slithered under the door like a snake, and has done none of the necessary work. Guess what? That's what she is doing now............slithering. This is JMHO.
I can see your POV. I recognize this is what I’m feeling. It’s like a delicate balance walking a tightrope where I want to be open to this newfound motivation and if I deny the advances, then she’ll be scared off and slither away. I see that she has an enormous amount of work to do before I can let her in the door. I’m am clearly struggling with tough love in this emotional time for her with her friend becoming recently widowed. I can’t bring myself to pile that on her now as well with the stress and pain she is experiencing.
Other than her one horse, are there any more horses or animals in the barn? See, you should have either had her to do all the chores connected to the upkeep of the horse.......or removed the horse from the property (unless there is a law the forbids it.) However, you were too soft-hearted when it came to her and the horse, so there were no clear cut lines about her having to take care of the responsibilities of the horse. You would say something, but there were no consequences, so if she didn't want to drive out there to take care of it, then she didn't. Now......she is begging you to let her go so far as to cut the pasture. Are there any other animals, or just the one horse?
There are two other horses on our property and in the barn right now. One is a neighbors that we’re taking care of while he is gone for the summer. The other is a boarder that pays monthly. Here is the truth on the arrangement, I feed all of the horses in the morning, then she comes over in the evenings to feed the horses and clean the stalls. The other two horses weren’t there yet when she moved out in early April. That is when I failed to say you fired me as your husband so I’m not going to assist with the chores for your horse. Now, I’ve been doing them for 4 months and it seems like the only way to stop is to give her the ultimatum and initiate the D process.
Here is where it gets worse, she would send me a text in the evening about 3-4 times a month asking if I could feed the horses that night. She would use some excuse like she is meeting some friends from work or visiting divorced BFF or working on a project at her house. Of course, I always said yes. I come to find out that almost every time she was going to see one of her OM on those nights. It sickens me that I enabled her cheating.
The horse (and swimming pool) have been her main reasons for coming to the house, since the separation. You knew this, and I think it's why you were so reluctant to draw hard lines about the horse. You were afraid she would no longer come at all, and you weren't emotionally ready. So now, you are faced with this situation of her wanting to jump in and "help more". It would have been easier if you had had a firm understanding about the horse when she first left. See what I mean?
I do, it muddied the waters on separation from the beginning. She comes over and leaves our kids in the house while she’s out doing chores or taking her horse for a ride. It’s a great setup for her. She really hasn’t felt what life without me is like and I have to constantly see her when she comes around on a daily basis. That’s why I wanted to finally get rid of the horse to stop the emotional triggers of seeing her and really start moving on with my life.
I don't think she's ready to stick to anything on a regular basis, but rather everything will rely on her mood at that moment. If it inconveniences everyone else, that's too bad. She is wishy-washy and that's why you have to be wise and strongly planted in what is right & wrong. Otherwise, she's going to break your heart over & over again. One day she may want you to listen to her talk for hours. She may even suggest that the family go together and do this or that, but then she lets you & the kids down b/c something else distracted her attention.
This ^^^^^ the emotional roller coaster. It breeds false hope. So frustrating waiting, wondering, and hoping the good mood stays consistently. It is a battle of will and perseverance.
Don't let her recent talks mislead you. I think having these long talk/texts play tricks on your heart. It pulls you in, and you become more emotionally attached. How about you limit how much you respond? I mean, you mentally put a time limit on these conversations. After 15 - 20 minutes, you have to go. You stop texting. You are involved in a project, a movie, book, hobby, or something other than using your time to respond to every text message from her. Don't be available all the time. Right now, you cannot think about gently guiding her back, b/c it messes with your head. It's a game you are playing with yourself.
Good idea on limiting the length of the talk/texts interactions. Helps with attraction to be less available and having something else to go do. Also limits the amount of my attachment. It’s not a problem right now because she’s dropped contact again the past 2 days, but I’ll remember this the next time she reaches out to me for emotional support.
Originally Posted by sandi2
You see her as coming out of the tunnel? Based on what? Her words?
Yes, based mostly on her words along with her tears (an action). I know...can’t believe what she says. Her facial expressions, tone, and body language were a 180 from how I’ve seen her since WW began. I saw guilt for not being there for her friend and shame for herself for not following the moral code she thought she lived by. Now I probably read too much into that thinking it was about more than just her friend but also about what her choices have done to our MR. I felt she was finally able to see the damage she’s caused and the destruction in her wake.
I think you read
way too much into thinking it was about more than just her own feelings tied to what happened to her friend. It had nothing to do with you. And I would not consider these tears as her doing action. She was having a pity party and wanted you to tell her what she wanted to hear, b/c she felt guilty for not being there for her friend.
Originally Posted by sandi2
Think about the lighthouse's job. It shines a beam of light. It doesn't wade out into the stormy waters to pull the sailor to shore. It firmly stands on solid ground and shines light. It's up to the sailor to follow the light to safety.
Point taken. The lighthouse is a fixed object. I thought I could be the lighthouse keeper. He’s mobile and can take his boat out to the sailor and say hey there are dangerous rocks over that way, but if you look this way through the fog you’ll see a beaming light. It’s the path to travel that leads you out of the storm to safe refuge.
Well, it sounds good on paper, except she won't listen to his warnings, especially when it's her LBH. It's part of the complexity of the WW. She would see it as
pressure and pursuit. Yeah, I do want to help her. Waiting for her to figure it out on her own is the hard part. The LBH sees many simple solutions and just wants to shout, hey W why can’t you see, the answer is there, right in front of you!
You don't
understand why she can't see the obvious, but you think you can open her eyes? Curtis, your simple solutions involve
talking her back. In reality, those type solutions are
pursuit. And pursuit doesn't work. It is applying emotional pressure to her. That pressure makes her run. We have told you this from the beginning, but you haven't accepted it. You still want to do what doesn't work.
I can see your POV. I recognize this is what I’m feeling. It’s like a delicate balance walking a tightrope where I want to be open to this newfound motivation and if I deny the advances, then she’ll be scared off and slither away.
What newfound motivation? Are you referring to her wanting to cut the pasture and take the kids to camp? That won't last. She's reacting to emotions.
Look, you have been scared to death you'll lose her since day one. You just find a new color paper to wrap up your excuses for not following DB. Detach, GAL, & 180. DBing is not what scares her off.
I’m am clearly struggling with tough love in this emotional time for her with her friend becoming recently widowed. I can’t bring myself to pile that on her now as well with the stress and pain she is experiencing.
And next week or next month it will be something else. IMHO, this would have been an opportunity for her to see that the H she fired is no longer available to hear her sob over not being there when her BFF needed her. But you can't do it, can you? You would see that action as being cruel. In fact, you see any tough love as cruel. This is why you end up enabling her, and why the cycle continues.
She comes over and leaves our kids in the house while she’s out doing chores or taking her horse for a ride. It’s a great setup for her. She really hasn’t felt what life without me is like and I have to constantly see her when she comes around on a daily basis. That’s why I wanted to finally get rid of the horse to stop the emotional triggers of seeing her and really start moving on with my life.
So why didn't you? This is an example of what I mean by you enabling her and the cycle continuing. Your life becomes more complicated b/c you don't have effective personal boundaries. You are at her mercy, as long as you continue to enable her. She won't do the necessary work, b/c she doesn't have to, when you are there to enable her.
You don't
understand why she can't see the obvious, but you think you can open her eyes? Curtis, your simple solutions involve
talking her back. In reality, those type solutions are
pursuit. And pursuit doesn't work. It is applying emotional pressure to her. That pressure makes her run. We have told you this from the beginning, but you haven't accepted it. You still want to do what doesn't work.
I have been told from the beginning and I’ve taken it to heart. I recognize I want to do what doesn’t work, but I’ve refrained from doing what doesn't work for a while now. I am a fixer and have a desire to step in and help her; however, I know she needs to fix herself, on her own if there is any chance of lasting R.
What newfound motivation? Are you referring to her wanting to cut the pasture and take the kids to camp? That won't last. She's reacting to emotions.
Perhaps it won’t last. Experience with other stories says it won’t. Only time will tell. I can sense that she is thinking differently, but I’m not going to get my hopes up too high until if and when she shows true remorse and consistent actions that prove her commitment to me.
Look, you have been scared to death you'll lose her since day one. You just find a new color paper to wrap up your excuses for not following DB. Detach, GAL, & 180. DBing is not what scares her off.
Actually, I’m not so scared to lose her anymore. Haven’t been since my amazing vacation with the kids in June. Detachment is a work in progress, but GAL and 180s are going well. I know I’ll be just fine on my own. I also know that I will meet someone else if this ends in D. After all, I am AMOAFWL.
And next week or next month it will be something else. IMHO, this would have been an opportunity for her to see that the H she fired is no longer available to hear her sob over not being there when her BFF needed her. But you can't do it, can you? You would see that action as being cruel. In fact, you see any tough love as cruel. This is why you end up enabling her, and why the cycle continues.
You make a valid point. I do see some aspects of tough love as being cruel. I feel like I missed several opportunities earlier in my sitch to apply tough love. Now I’ve backed myself into a corner and it’s either too late or would be ineffective to apply tough love. For example, I did pack her remaining clothes and place them in the garage in early May after I tried to enforce the no open marriage boundary. It was too late as she had already moved out.
She comes over and leaves our kids in the house while she’s out doing chores or taking her horse for a ride. It’s a great setup for her. She really hasn’t felt what life without me is like and I have to constantly see her when she comes around on a daily basis. That’s why I wanted to finally get rid of the horse to stop the emotional triggers of seeing her and really start moving on with my life.
So why didn't you? This is an example of what I mean by you enabling her and the cycle continuing. Your life becomes more complicated b/c you don't have effective personal boundaries. You are at her mercy, as long as you continue to enable her. She won't do the necessary work, b/c she doesn't have to, when you are there to enable her.
I didn’t because of the tragic death of her friend’s H and W’s change in behavior in response. I have decided to trust my gut on this one for a little while and observe how it plays out. It is an excuse and it’s certainly not the first I’ve used. I’m not going to get involved or pursue, but rather sit back and see if she starts pursuing me. If it doesn’t amount to anything in the next few weeks, I haven’t lost much, only additional time being married. Then I plan to continue down my path of moving forward without her.
W has the kids this weekend and texted saying they were coming over to feed the horses and that we needed to tell the kids about friend’s H’s death. I was mowing the lawn when they arrived and W started asking me about wiring an outlet in her house for an over the range microwave. I gave her some advice because I don’t want the place to have an electrical fire with my kids inside. W said the microwave project was the one thing she was wanting to finish. Does that mean she is ready to come back afterwards? Doubtful.
W called me “honey” on her way to the barn. First time I heard her refer to me with that word since January. Can’t remember the exact context, but probably just a natural reaction, didn’t give it much stock.
I finished mowing, then went in the house with W. We sat the kids down in the living room. W then went to get Windex out of the closet, came back, and cleaned the coffee table and end table glass. She didn’t say anything, just did it. Very weird, guess I’m slipping with keeping up with the chores.
I took the lead on telling the kids about the motorcycle accident. I told them very directly what happened to him and that he was dead. I let them know how important it is that we are there for our friends right now. It didn’t seem to bother either of them at all. W attempted to help them understand by saying “Just think how you would feel if dad died tomorrow.”
^^^^^^^ That last statement right there is the key and why I feel her eyes have been opened. It ties things together for me and why I’ve been speculating that she is starting to realize the damage that she’s caused. I believe that she has given serious thought to losing me fully and what life would be like without me, especially if I were gone in an instant. It just may be the catalyst that starts her off on the long road home.
W and I talked about her widowed friend’s relationship with her deceased H and how it was described negatively by the W, but positively by friends of the H. We agreed that the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. My W said “There are two sides to every situation and there is fault on both sides. Just like ours. But ours isn’t out in the open for everybody to comment on.”
I went out to the car to say goodbye to the kids and W showed me all the school clothes she bought for them. I complimented her on the selections. Then she said “Curtis, thank you.” I asked for what and she replied “For telling the kids about the death.” I said your welcome and goodbye.
I’ve noticed that W has been very careful around me since the death of friend’s H. It’s almost like she’s trying extra hard not to offend me over anything. It is different behavior and I’m not sure what to make of it yet.
Sorry C I'm not buying any of it. More excuses to put up with the bs. The coffee table cleaning is just more disrespect.
Interesting that with everything she has put you and your family through you think tough love is cruel.
Read Sandi's response over and over until sinks in because until it does you are cementing yourself into the permanent FZ.
Curtis,
Your WW is acting on emotion. The respect for you is gone and her desire for the marriage is no longer there.
Your WW is throwing your crumbs, but you are so desperate to make this work, you see them as a 4 course meal.
You spent hours looking at old sitchs and preparing a speech to the WW. The problem is that you cherry picked the scenarios that saw a positive impact but ignored the factors involved ( ie timings / factors differed from yours etc ) , which would mean this wouldn’t work in your sitch.
Your keep saying your need to fight for the marriage. You are fighting but losing 2 other things.. Respect and your day to day life. Life is short, so make the most of it. GAL, move on and focus on you / your new family. It is clear from the posts you refuse to drop the rope. You have mentioned in numerous posts about fighting for the marriage. If you need to prove it to your kids, print these forum posts off.. They show you were 100% committed. Nobody can expect you to carry on forever.
You mention your son wanting you to fight for the marriage. So let me ask you this question. If your son was being bullied at school - What would you tell your son to do ? I suspect your would tell your son to stand up for himself.. Bullies generally back away when challenged.. They lose their control and actually ( in a weird way ) respect their victim. Your wife is effectively bullying you, yet you let it happen... That’s like the child who hangs around with the bully hoping that if he takes enough abuse, the bully will start to like him and find somebody else to pickup. But they will always be seen as weak by the bully – and there is certainly no respect, by the bully or the others that see it. You are in danger of becoming that child how hangs around with a bully just to try and be accepted… Your WW / kids will see this – But do you think it gains their respect ?
You think your WW is coming out of the fog because of a few crumbs. I think you are overlooking all the negatives, just to cling onto hope with one or two positives.
One thing I think is often overlooked in a lot of sitchs is also the OW – or divorced female friend / generally female friends. Women are more influenced by their friends than males are. Her divorced female friend has a massive influence on her thoughts and emotions. Divorced female friend will be acting in her own best interests, keeping her new GGW buddy available. Do you really think divorced female friend is fighting for your corner / your marriage. Your WW is not only fighting her own demons, but she has this little devil is sitting on her shoulder whispering nasties in her ear.
I saw this in my personal sitch – I discovered EA1 exactly a year today ( time flies ) – On the night in question ( i.e. last night 1 year ago ) her best mate encouraged her to stay out with EA1, instead of catching her taxi and even text her “Shag him”. Once I discovered EA1 my WW was distraught and spent 4 days trying to do everything to reconcile. She requested copies of the messages she sent to her mate ( they were deleted off her phone ) to prove there was no physical contact, stopped replying to the guy and allowed me to run a deleted message scan on her phone. She wanted counselling and was generally upset about her actions. Four days later she went with a drink with her best mate.. She came home with a different attitude. After a 2 hour chat with her mate, the EA1 was my fault because I was making her unhappy, EA1 wasn’t an affair at all and I was just jealous / controlling etc.. I should have walked away then, as although we had a good few months after this before EA2, it showed she wasn’t prepared to accept any responsibility..
My point being its not only the OM who is the problem. So even if your WW has ceased contact with OM, until she breaks away from the influence of the best mate, she will never be 100% committed ( IMO )
Finally..
I keep going on about emotion, and how it impacts on rational thought.
Your wife has thrown away her good life, future, kids, stability, you etc – because she is acting on emotion. Something happened that made her snap - In her broken world, 2 + 2 = 5 – I think you accept this, but you think you can fix it.. If this board has taught me anything, its that you can’t fix.. Or even influence them, as they are working on emotion, not rational. Your WW is broken.. You cant fix her and she doesn’t want to listen to anything you say..
But then lets come to you..
You are fortunate enough to have some excellent feed back / advice on here from the best – the Vets.. Sandi, Anotherstander, Steve85 etc
Rational people look at their feedback / advice to you and think “bang on, great advice, makes sense” .. etc
We all agree your wife is acting on emotion.. But from your replies, YOU ARE as well. All your posts show you are acting on emotion. You ask for advice, but refuse to drop the rope or follow the advice. You are hanging on thinking that you know best / your sitch is different / you can nice your wife back… or trying to justify her actions etc .… You are acting on your emotion. In the same way your WW wont listen to your advise / want to be fixed, your emotion ( I know DB is counterintuitive ) is stopping you following advice and actually moving forward or making rational decisions – and it’s been said a 1000s times.. The best way to get them back, is let them go.
Sorry C I'm not buying any of it.
You guys were right. Her awakening was not sustainable. It didn’t last, she is back with the OM. Was with him the night of D5’s birthday...unbelievable.
Oh well, my hopes were up, but fortunately my expectations were low, so I’m not feeling too bad about her diving right back into WW.
My point being its not only the OM who is the problem. So even if your WW has ceased contact with OM, until she breaks away from the influence of the best mate, she will never be 100% committed ( IMO )
MrBrside, great post! I wish I had more time to respond, I’ll just comment on this part for now. The wake and funeral are over for the widowed friend’s deceased H. WW was with divorced BFF last night and it appears that has cemented my fate. She has been with my WW this entire free fall into the depths of immorality and deceit. I fully agree with you in that even if one OM went away, BFF would do her darnedest to make sure there were more OM before W considered coming back to me.
Today is 9 months post-BD. Interesting development, I scheduled L appointment today. W sent a text asking me to call her to talk about something. I didn’t call, then a short while later she texts never mind, all cleared up. I come to find out she opened a case through her legal services today and was assigned my L. Her second text was after she had a different L assigned.
So, my W and I really think alike at times, sad in this case, but uncanny. It appears we both had the same thought in mind. Perhaps the funeral we attended today was the final nail in the coffin for our MR. Once I found out she has went back to OM that did it for me. I can no longer tolerate the disrespect. He is the last one she thinks about at night and the first one she thinks about in the morning. I will not remain in a MR where I’m an afterthought.
To make things more interesting, I decided to hit send tonight on an email I drafted a couple months ago asking her to attend Retrouvaille with me. I am fully expecting a no or no response, however it gives her something to think about. Nothing left to lose at this point and if the question ever comes up with my kids I can show them that I tried up until the end.
Curtis,
I'll be blunt on this....
You are still hanging on for dear life to that rope...
Once I found out she has went back to OM that did it for me. I can no longer tolerate the disrespect. He is the last one she thinks about at night and the first one she thinks about in the morning. I will not remain in a MR where I’m an afterthought.
Then
To make things more interesting, I decided to hit send tonight on an email I drafted a couple months ago asking her to attend Retrouvaille with me.
You have just made a statment about disrespect, then go against all logic and send the email about Retroivaille... Pursuit !
I'll bring this back to the bully comparison.You have effectively said..
Right dad, i'm not going to take this any more. Today, when i see him i will stand up to him.. I will no longer tolerate this disrespect..
Then
hmmm.. I'm worried what the bully will say / do...
Right Dad before i stood up to the bully, I decided to email the bully and tell him to leave me alone as i dont like it or the way he acts.
Dad feels pity - Bully laughs has ass off - both lose repect.
You are still thinking on emotion. You are not making rational decissions. I haven't gone back through the thread, but from memory one of the Vets even states that Retrouvaille won't move forward if a partner is engaged in an affair ? Yet you still send the email.. Your words will not shake her from this ( In much the same way i feel my words to you fall on deaf ears ) - You are trying to save your marrige, i am trying to help you to save yourself - or at least make the most of the life you have...
Your marrige is gone.. It will never return as you knew it
Another comparison - When my grandad had his stroke and then went into a coma we had a choice. There was a very very very very small chance ( but virtually zero ) he could recover. But it could be months, even years.. And even then he would not be the same person he was before the stroke.
The family had a choice to make.. Allow them to stop feeding / life support or spent the next week, month, years making regular trips to the hospital.. My Grandmother would have been left in limbo..
Point i am making - its a hard decission, your emotions are working against you etc - But you need to let go...
I can't help but feel the decission to see a laywer wasnt about you wanting a divorce, but another hope that the letter may snap her out of this.. She is too far gone..
Get rid of the horse and break contact, except when kid related - If you only see her once a week etc you will make massive progress..
C,
You know the letter was the wrong thing to do that's why you didn't run it by the board. Please take the next year and learn to love and respect yourself. You have two young boys who need you and look up to you. If you don't make some serious changes they will likely walk down the same path as you when they are older.
Always remember that no one will ever say or do anything to you that you don't allow them to.
Good luck my friend.
You are still hanging on for dear life to that rope...
You have just made a statment about disrespect, then go against all logic and send the email about Retroivaille... Pursuit !
You are still thinking on emotion. You are not making rational decisions. I haven't gone back through the thread, but from memory one of the Vets even states that Retrouvaille won't move forward if a partner is engaged in an affair ? Yet you still send the email.. Your words will not shake her from this ( In much the same way I feel my words to you fall on deaf ears ) - You are trying to save your marrige, i am trying to help you to save yourself - or at least make the most of the life you have...
Your marriage is gone.. It will never return as you knew it
Point I am making - its a hard decision, your emotions are working against you etc - But you need to let go...
I can't help but feel the decision to see a laywer wasnt about you wanting a divorce, but another hope that the letter may snap her out of this.. She is too far gone..
Get rid of the horse and break contact, except when kid related - If you only see her once a week etc you will make massive progress..
We all came here because we didn’t want a D. I know the MR I knew is gone and will never come back. Frankly, I don’t want that MR anymore because my W didn’t feel loved, respected, and appreciated enough to remain committed and faithful. I do want to try and start a new MR with her and find out if we can have something better. Ideally without having to go through with a D first. This is only possible if she chooses to end her A’s.
One thing I’ve learned on this board and in reading NMMNG and other resources is that it’s unlikely that you’ll get what you want if you don’t ask. So, the email described RetroV, I expressed my desire to try it, and asked if she was interested. I know a requirement for RetroV is that neither S is involved in another R. So, the first step is to ask if she’s willing, the second is to ask if she’ll end her A’s and really participate with an open mind.
I’ve let go of the outcomes. I’m moving down parallel paths. If she agrees to attend RetroV, that’s a positive step. Although, if she proceeds with the D path, then I’m preparing to protect the best interest for me and my kids.
My decision to see a L was twofold, 1) to terminate the disrespect, get out of limbo, and move forward with living my life and 2) hope that she would feel loss when faced with the reality of D. I realize that the latter is extremely unlikely with where she’s at as a person and who she’s become. Again, I’ve let go of the outcomes, but I want a decision from her. No, I don’t want a D, but I will not remain in a MR with infidelity, this has gone on long enough and it’s time for choices to be made.
I've said this 100 times if I've said it once........being impulsive will kill your DBing efforts every time.
As MrBSide pointed out, you are contradicting yourself. "I am done....will not tolerate the disrespect of an OM in a MR." Next breath: "Please go to Retrouvaille with me!!!"
As he said, that lost you respect in her eyes.
As another anti-D author (not MWD) states....if more LBHs took a stance of "I am not taking this, you are out of here." with their WAW/WW then more marriages would be saved. Beta behavior will get you D'd almost every time.
MrBrside has seemingly come out of nowhere with some outstanding comments, observations and advice, I think he is really spot on in what he said in the last few posts. Read it and take it in!
You guys were right. Her awakening was not sustainable. It didn’t last, she is back with the OM.
So it played out exactly like we said it would. Why? Because we have seen these situations sooooo many times and we know what to expect. Please listen to us, we're trying to help but you've got to trust that we know what we're talking about, and I think right now you're still trusting your (oh-so-wrong) instincts over our advice.
WW was with divorced BFF last night and it appears that has cemented my fate.
Don't sweat BFF. She's just an "enabler" and all that means is she is telling your W what she already wants to hear. She is going to surround herself with enablers and cut people out of her life that try to talk some sense into her. It's what WAS's do.
To make things more interesting, I decided to hit send tonight on an email I drafted a couple months ago asking her to attend Retrouvaille with me. I am fully expecting a no or no response, however it gives her something to think about. Nothing left to lose at this point and if the question ever comes up with my kids I can show them that I tried up until the end.
And this is where your faulty instincts are sending you astray again. DON'T DO THIS. PERIOD. If you've learned nothing from the last week then learn this- you simply cannot trust your instincts, because they are WRONG. LISTEN TO US!!!! Detach. Leave her alone. STOP ALL THE PRESSURE!!! Not only will the answer be "no", but she will wonder at just how sad and pathetic you are that you keep doing this even when she's having an affair right in your face. That is NOT attractive. Incidentally, you couldn't go to Retrou even if you wanted to because she is in an affair. To even get your foot in the door of Retrou both of you have to separately pass a phone interview stating there is no OP and that you are at least somewhat interested in giving the M a chance.
"
MrBrside has seemingly come out of nowhere
I've been here a while but HATED my username.. It sucked!!! my account was created during a time of desperation..
I may have moved on, but the username always reminded me of how i used to feel - it had to go...
I have added the following to my sig, but it doesnt show on posts...
"
Previous username - Helpme123.. A name chosen at a desperate time..
Now Mr Brightside.. coming out of my cage, and doing just fine.
Don't sweat BFF. She's just an "enabler" and all that means is she is telling your W what she already wants to hear. She is going to surround herself with enablers and cut people out of her life that try to talk some sense into her. It's what WAS's do.
I think you used this word (enabled) - you or somebody else did recently and i never got chance to comment.. and its bang on. My WAW did just this. Enablers and validators. I first heard this word off the marrige counciler on a 1 to 1 call.. She told me i was an enabler, as i always found a way to give the WAW what she desired / wanted. I suspect a lot of us become enablers ( happy wife, easy life rubbish ) - its when they dont get their own way, it goes south.. But its a catch 22.. I think they also lose respect for the bloke that bends over backward to do everything to create this "happy wife / happy life"
I love the MrBrightside name. My name was one made from a desperate mindset too.
Curtis, I still haven't asked my W about Retrouvaille. That is a lot. I think my W might feel pressure even now. I can't imagine how yours would feel. It also better for you to cease the pressure. You will be able to live at ease.
I can't believe you still let her come over and play mommy and daddy and see the horse and clean the house and get her little housewife fix in. When is that $%^& going to stop?
I think you're clinging to that, thinking that it is a way to rebuild your connection with her.
WW was with divorced BFF last night and it appears that has cemented my fate.
Don't sweat BFF. She's just an "enabler" and all that means is she is telling your W what she already wants to hear. She is going to surround herself with enablers and cut people out of her life that try to talk some sense into her. It's what WAS's do.
Yeah this rings true for me too. The only friend I hear anything about is divorced BFF that lives in waterfront home paid for by alimony of 3 previous H. My W spoke of wanting to live next door to her because its just so peaceful before she BD me. She is the one that provided books on how to 'live for yourself', 'divorcing narcissists', 'power negotiating', etc to W. BFF is a of the proponent of sayings like men are pigs and women don't need men in their lives, etc.
Funny thing is W has been telling me how necessary it has been to cut the 'negative' people from her life to make things better. All the 'negative' people are all of our friends from before BD. You know, the ones that know me and the ones that would advise her she is doing the wrong thing on every account. She has no friends from before BD. According to her they all 'left her' and she had no choice but to find new friends.
Hey C! Don´t wait for a magic bullet. Keep detaching. Focus on yourself. Get rid of those ambiguous behaviors.
Trust yourself Curtis! Keep DB.
I've said this 100 times if I've said it once........being impulsive will kill your DBing efforts every time.
As MrBSide pointed out, you are contradicting yourself. "I am done....will not tolerate the disrespect of an OM in a MR." Next breath: "Please go to Retrouvaille with me!!!"
As he said, that lost you respect in her eyes.
As another anti-D author (not MWD) states....if more LBHs took a stance of "I am not taking this, you are out of here." with their WAW/WW then more marriages would be saved. Beta behavior will get you D'd almost every time.
Steve, hindsight is 20/20. If I knew at BD and EA/PA discovery what I know now, strong action to not tolerate her behavior would have been taken. Yes, many LBHs are too slow to learn and recognize that their sitch is not unique. For many of us it took too long to accept and see reality for what it is. My MR may not be saved, hopefully others are by learning from my mistakes.
I know what I’m saying is contradictory; however, I view it as having multiple exits on my journey. RetroV could be taken, if that’s passed by, then proceeding with D could be taken. I am okay with whichever she chooses at this point. I am just no longer okay with the affairs while being married to her. That arrangement will either end by her choice or by one of us starting the D.
And this is where your faulty instincts are sending you astray again. DON'T DO THIS. PERIOD. If you've learned nothing from the last week then learn this- you simply cannot trust your instincts, because they are WRONG. LISTEN TO US!!!! Detach. Leave her alone. STOP ALL THE PRESSURE!!! Not only will the answer be "no", but she will wonder at just how sad and pathetic you are that you keep doing this even when she's having an affair right in your face. That is NOT attractive.
I’ve left her alone for months during the physical S and where has that gotten me? Yes, I carry on with my life and make the most of my time with the kids, but time and space has not slowed down her WW or A’s. It seems we are now in a neck and neck race for who takes legal action first.
She is not aware that I know about the affairs. Therefore, from that perspective I don’t believe it looks sad and pathetic. She sees me this whole time as waiting for her to come back, her having all the power to make that decision if she decides that is what she wants. I’m sure it would seem weak to ask her to attend RetroV if I exposed my knowledge of her A’s to her. My goal was to plant a seed. Coach said to remember TEA, Thoughts proceed Emotions and Emotions proceed Actions. Now it’s out there and she can read about the program if she so chooses. The thought has been shared along with how I feel it could help us. This may trigger emotions for her in the future. It may not be something she is willing to partake in at the next session in September, but perhaps somewhere down the road this will strike a chord and be an experience she suggests we try.
Recommendations on where to go from here are appreciated. Since we both have L meetings upcoming and assuming she says no to Retro, do I deliver my D settlement proposal or let her do the work and present hers first? I don’t know how quickly she will move, but the benefit I see in delivering mine first is to accelerate the process, get the horse off property, and break off contact sooner rather than later.
This just in...W just texted that she will give Retro a try. Now, how do I break the news to her that she can’t be involved with OM?
Yes. You can´t live in an open marriage...
I wouldnt even bother to tell her..
Let her find out herself..
2 reasons in my thought process for this
1) - she doesnt respect you.. How do you think you will look to her, if she knows you know about the affairs... and still want to try
2) - She has eaten cake from day one.. I dont believe this is any different... If she is accepted into this thing, she is still lying anyway ( or more than likelly ) - and you keep detaching / walk away.. She has an agenda.. or maybe its to say "oh kids mummy tried " etc
just MHO
She knows you know about the affairs because that was one of your boundaries if she came in your house.
Curt,
Wow, wow, wow. You are living a lie. Your entire sitch is a lie on both sides. Your wife is lying to you and you are holding on to information like it's going to doom to world if it gets loose.
What do you think is going to happen at Rville? If you are trying to recon and your W don't know where she is starting from in your eyes then she can't be sincere. She just agreed to something, not fully knowing what she might be walking into. And when ya'll get there and all the hard questions are asked, what will be your answers. Will ya'll continue to lie, if so, then Rville won't work.
Ya'll are starting from a point of deception on both ends. You have let go of a card that should of stayed in your pocket until you did the work, but you got impatient, and is more worried about a D, then gaining respect and building a M and R off of a solid foundation.
IMO, until the truth is free and flowing between the two of you, you won't be able to become intimate to build a foundation of real love and respect. Ya'll can't be honest with each other, but want to move forward in building a M on what?
It's time for you to become the man that demands respect and is not waiting on respect. Tell your W the truth before you go there, because if you don't, when you get there and she finds out you know in front of a stranger, it won't be pretty and that will be dam near impossible to come back from.
Joejoe
She knows you know about the affairs because that was one of your boundaries if she came in your house.
She knows that I’m aware that she’s in contact with OM. She doesn’t know that I know the extent and that the infidelity has continued beyond January when I confronted her the second time about hooking up with the 25 year old pickup artist in her car. She has called them her friends, trying to lead me to believe that there was no physical R with them.
I wouldnt even bother to tell her..
Let her find out herself..
2 reasons in my thought process for this
1) - she doesnt respect you.. How do you think you will look to her, if she knows you know about the affairs... and still want to try
2) - She has eaten cake from day one.. I dont believe this is any different... If she is accepted into this thing, she is still lying anyway ( or more than likelly ) - and you keep detaching / walk away.. She has an agenda.. or maybe its to say "oh kids mummy tried " etc
just MHO
It is possible she said yes to try and save face with family and the kids. That was essentially the outcome of the three failed MC sessions at the beginning of the year. She tried MC and was able to say it didn’t work.
I do like the idea of the program reps asking her the questions and her having to respond. I don’t really see anywhere on the website where it lists the requirements to attend, otherwise I could refer her to that and ask in general if she’s good with all of the stipulations.
AS, do you recall how quickly they call for the phone interview after registering?
It's time for you to become the man that demands respect and is not waiting on respect. Tell your W the truth before you go there, because if you don't, when you get there and she finds out you know in front of a stranger, it won't be pretty and that will be dam near impossible to come back from.
THIS!! With one small correction. Be the man that COMMANDS respect.
Your W is a WW. You have to switch to tough love. Or you will be in limbo for a long time. WW are notorious for doing whatever they want, and cake eating for as long as the LBH allows it.
She'll have to do a phone interview with the Retrovaille people first, and they will make it clear. I think....
AS, do you recall how quickly they call for the phone interview after registering?
It's been many years but from what I remember it was very soon, like the day after we registered. In my case it was actually my XW that wanted to give it a try, in retrospect I think it was too soon and that she just wanted to do it to say she "tried everything". I looked at their website and all I can see about the interview is the following:
"First, you will need to Register for a weekend program. Once you complete the registration process, you will be contacted by the Registration Couple from the community where you will be attending the weekend. They will give you a short briefing about the expectations, and answer any questions you may have about the program."
So maybe they don't require that you promise not to be involved with an OP anymore. There's a 1-800 number you can call if you have any questions about that.
What do you think is going to happen at Rville? If you are trying to recon and your W don't know where she is starting from in your eyes then she can't be sincere. She just agreed to something, not fully knowing what she might be walking into. And when ya'll get there and all the hard questions are asked, what will be your answers. Will ya'll continue to lie, if so, then Rville won't work.
It is not my intent to ambush her at Rville. Ideally, we are both completely open and honest there and use that experience as opportunity to connect, fully understand each other’s feelings, and lay the groundwork for R. A new MR built on honesty, integrity, and commitment. I agree with you that it would be best if the truth comes out and the lies on both sides stop prior to attending. I need to find a way to create a safe environment to do that where she doesn’t feel like she is going to be judged or attacked for her choices.
Ya'll are starting from a point of deception on both ends. You have let go of a card that should of stayed in your pocket until you did the work, but you got impatient, and is more worried about a D, then gaining respect and building a M and R off of a solid foundation.
IMO, until the truth is free and flowing between the two of you, you won't be able to become intimate to build a foundation of real love and respect. Ya'll can't be honest with each other, but want to move forward in building a M on what?
It's time for you to become the man that demands respect and is not waiting on respect. Tell your W the truth before you go there, because if you don't, when you get there and she finds out you know in front of a stranger, it won't be pretty and that will be dam near impossible to come back from.
It’s clear to me now that W and I did not have a strong emotional connection prior to BD, our communication was poor. We were both passive aggressive and held disappointments inside. We avoided conflict and were not able to clearly express our wants, needs, and expectations to each other. Based on current state of affairs, it’s obvious that type of relationship doesn’t work in the long run.
Disclosing what I know to her is something I’ve struggled with for many months. I held onto it for so long because I felt that once it was out she would run farther away, deeper into her A’s and WW. Instead, I chose to give her time and space and wait patiently to see if they ran their course. She was/is so resentful of me that exposure would have been the fastest path to D. At times, I’ve thought about taking some of the despicable details to my grave and never letting her know beyond the fact that I know she has been intimate with OM. Not who, what, when, where or how many times or the lies used as a cover. In time and with work on both sides, I believe that I can forgive her for those that I know about. However, I think there is a lot more lingering in the darkness that I’m not sure I even want to know about. It’s a delicate balance on the level of detail that a person needs to know to feel trusting that the truth has been told while not getting into descriptions that cause images in the mind that are difficult to erase.
This is a tough decision because I want to lay the cards on the table so we both go in with equal footing at Rville. On the other hand, I know just getting her there is half the battle. I don’t feel she is committed to me at all right now and my hope is that in going through the program we both discover there is a starting point to build on. At least, this is how many reviews and testimonials describe the program with their S that was way gone. I need to find the right time and opportunity to broach the topic of her ongoing affairs without losing her willingness to try Rville.
I’ve tried to follow the DBing principle of no relationship talks. Is attempting to have a truth conversation with her about the OM considered a relationship talk? I would not be begging, pleading, trying to change her feelings or convince that our MR is what’s right. Rather trying to understand and establish an environment where the lies can stop. I feel like we have been separated long enough where I can attempt to have an honest conversation like that which doesn’t come across as applying pressure. The objective is moreso to establish this is where we stand.
Curt,
IMO, the conversation about her infidelity will be a difficult one no matter how you approach it. She doesn't know that you know all the details that you do. Once she finds out, she will take it extremely hard. I don't know what her response will be, but I'm 100% sure It won't be what you expect. Especially if she believes you only know certain things.
If you get to Rville and her infidelity is disclosed, she might feel attacked. It's my advice to disclose before she goes and let it be her choice to still go to Rville. are not go.
You are still to attached you don't want to disclose because you want to get her to Rville, to me that is a really selfish statement and it's all about you. Your W has free choice, and going to Rville needs to be her CHOICE and not your manipulation. Because, that's how she will feel if you go there and bring up OM without giving her a chance to decide on her own if she want to go under the condition that she is an adulterous. Most Rville has a little bit of religious aspect to it and bringing her there, disclosing what you know and then opening up about your feelings, will feel like a mountain coming down on top of her.
You are still trying to control your sitch. You need to let go and allow her to come to you from a place of honesty and transparency. Right now, you and her have too much under the rug and in the closet.
Too me your mindset is not set up in the right way. You are way too worried about losing her. You keep saying, "If I tell her what I know, it will push her away". Guess what she is already gone. You need to change you mindset to be, "In order to have a chance of getting my W back and having a happy M, I must command respect". That means you must tell her what you know, lay it all out and move forward. Be a man that can walk in truth and hold people accountable when they have wronged you. Right now you are not that man.
Stop thinking about losing your wife, because all your actions have been in prevention of losing her. And start thinking about gaining respect, and that will put you in a place and have you acting in a way that gives you the best chance of winning your W back.
Joe
Curt,
IMO, the conversation about her infidelity will be a difficult one no matter how you approach it. She doesn't know that you know all the details that you do. Once she finds out, she will take it extremely hard. I don't know what her response will be, but I'm 100% sure It won't be what you expect. Especially if she believes you only know certain things.
If you get to Rville and her infidelity is disclosed, she might feel attacked. It's my advice to disclose before she goes and let it be her choice to still go to Rville. are not go.
You are still to attached you don't want to disclose because you want to get her to Rville, to me that is a really selfish statement and it's all about you. Your W has free choice, and going to Rville needs to be her CHOICE and not your manipulation. Because, that's how she will feel if you go there and bring up OM without giving her a chance to decide on her own if she want to go under the condition that she is an adulterous. Most Rville has a little bit of religious aspect to it and bringing her there, disclosing what you know and then opening up about your feelings, will feel like a mountain coming down on top of her.
You are still trying to control your sitch. You need to let go and allow her to come to you from a place of honesty and transparency. Right now, you and her have too much under the rug and in the closet.
Too me your mindset is not set up in the right way. You are way too worried about losing her. You keep saying, "If I tell her what I know, it will push her away". Guess what she is already gone. You need to change you mindset to be, "In order to have a chance of getting my W back and having a happy M, I must command respect". That means you must tell her what you know, lay it all out and move forward. Be a man that can walk in truth and hold people accountable when they have wronged you. Right now you are not that man.
Stop thinking about losing your wife, because all your actions have been in prevention of losing her. And start thinking about gaining respect, and that will put you in a place and have you acting in a way that gives you the best chance of winning your W back.
Joe
I’m really struggling today going back and forth on 3 options:
1) Attend Rville at the end of Sept without discussing her A’s beforehand
2) Disclose to her that I know she’s still having PAs
3) Confront her with my speech that I’m moving forward and ready to proceed with the D process.
The A’s are so painful, it’s the most cruel thing a person can do to their S IMO. It hurts so bad knowing she’s giving herself to OM and lying and gaslighting me about it. I’ve been thinking often over the past couple months that I just want the pain to go away. Loving detachment is so difficult with affairs.
Here are my thoughts on each path:
1) I can put my blinders on and make it to Rville, perhaps her PAs blow up in the meantime. This is the time and space approach. I still go into Rville without her knowing what I know and it will be apparent fairly quickly there if she is being honest. I would be relying on a miracle happening there.
2) I see two outcomes, we rapidly move towards the D legal process or we finally have an honest discussion about her choices and she may still be willing to attend Rville. I see the latter highly unlikely based on where she’s at right now.
3) This route effectively ends my stand and allows me to move forward with some respect for myself. I suppose Rville is a possibility if she has a change of heart during the D process.
I’m contemplating if I’ll regret it in the future if she was willing to try Rville and I did something that changed her mind about going. Always asking myself the question what if we had gone. We all wish we had the answers to know which choices to make that won’t self-sabotage our DBing goals.
Just not a good day for me emotionally. I don’t want to make an impulsive decision, but the pain is getting to me today.
Fortunately the kids are with me this weekend and I can pour out my love on them and take solace that they actually welcome and appreciate it compared to my WW.
I’m coaching S8’s baseball team in a tournament this weekend. He hit a walkoff triple in the first game and homered twice in the second. WW showed up 45 minutes late for the first game. First tournament she attended all summer, but she was only there in body as she spent almost all her time on her phone. Sometimes I wish she would just stay away, out of sight, out of mind.
Curt,
Your last post was completely about, what your WW will do.
Listen, I'm imploring you to reread your last post over and over. Because it was written by a very weak man. You can't control a thing your WW does, and that post was all about trying to predict an outcome. STOP IT! The only thing you need worrying controlling is you. YOU, YOU, not your WW.
It's her choice to go. Stop blaming yourself, ACCEPT your fault, forgive yourself and move forward. Her decision to go or not go is her decision, and her decision alone.
You wrote 3 options, then gave yourself two paths, then ended with yourself seeing one outcome (that was wild). You have to focus on yourself, too much focus is still on her.
The options you need to give yourself, should be about you, and only you.
Options
1. Tell her: Her reaction is none of my concern
2. Don't tell her. Her reaction is none of my concern
Both options, leads you down the same path focusing on yourself, healing yourself, and loving and respecting yourself. IMO you are trying to go to Rville, in hopes of getting your WW to change her mind. Without respect and honesty, Rville will not work. Focus on honesty and respect, you want your WW to be honest and her too respect you. Be the man and take the lead. You start with being honest to her and respecting yourself.
If you are not living in those values, why are you expecting your WW too?
Options
1. Tell her: Her reaction is none of my concern
2. Don't tell her. Her reaction is none of my concern
Both options, leads you down the same path focusing on yourself, healing yourself, and loving and respecting yourself. IMO you are trying to go to Rville, in hopes of getting your WW to change her mind. Without respect and honesty, Rville will not work. Focus on honesty and respect, you want your WW to be honest and her too respect you. Be the man and take the lead. You start with being honest to her and respecting yourself.
If you are not living in those values, why are you expecting your WW too?
Joe, thanks for the reply. I’m reading your posts over and over again and it’s starting to sink in. Leading with honesty and respect is the type of relationship I want to build upon. Believe me, I’m getting there, working myself up to it.
Doing much better today. Coached S8’s baseball team this weekend and they won the tournament. He hit 5 more homers today to finish with 6 homers in 4 games. Absolutely incredible!! I get so much enjoyment out of leading these boys and showing them how to compete with good sportsmanship. I especially enjoyed handing the team trophy to the son of the deceased father that died in the motorcycle accident a couple weeks ago. He will remember it forever.
GAL continued with sprucing up the yard, soaking in the pool, going to the gym, and then out for sushi with a friend. Keeping busy kept my mind off WW and when I did think of her it was a mix of disgust and indifference. I’m going to give Rville some more thought, I may call the 800 number in the next couple days to ask some questions on what they recommend / policies on a spouse that has been or still is involved in an affair.
I’m going to give Rville some more thought, I may call the 800 number in the next couple days to ask some questions on what they recommend / policies on a spouse that has been or still is involved in an affair.
I called the Retrouvaille folks a couple days ago and discussed the program in greater detail. They did confirm that it doesn't work if one S is still actively involved with APs. They also stated that a commitment needs to be made to attend both the weekend and all 6 post sessions. Again, they stated the program doesn't work if the post sessions aren't attended as well. The phone interview is usually conducted shortly before the actual event, but they offered to call sooner to get the active affair question out there.
IMO, the conversation about her infidelity will be a difficult one no matter how you approach it. She doesn't know that you know all the details that you do. Once she finds out, she will take it extremely hard. I don't know what her response will be, but I'm 100% sure It won't be what you expect. Especially if she believes you only know certain things.
If you get to Rville and her infidelity is disclosed, she might feel attacked. It's my advice to disclose before she goes and let it be her choice to still go to Rville. are not go.
Options
1. Tell her: Her reaction is none of my concern
2. Don't tell her. Her reaction is none of my concern
Both options, leads you down the same path focusing on yourself, healing yourself, and loving and respecting yourself. IMO you are trying to go to Rville, in hopes of getting your WW to change her mind. Without respect and honesty, Rville will not work. Focus on honesty and respect, you want your WW to be honest and her too respect you. Be the man and take the lead. You start with being honest to her and respecting yourself.
If you are not living in those values, why are you expecting your WW too?
I decided to tell her.
I started by asking if she had any more questions about Retrouvaille after reading about the program online. Her concerns and my responses were as follows:
1) Staying in a hotel room with me and much of the work being individual couples work in the room. I explained that there are two beds in the room. Also, I briefly described dialoguing and how the couples write about their feelings, then go back to their room to discuss each other's responses.
2) Time commitment of the weekend plus the post sessions. I shared that Friday is check-in early evening followed by introductions and starting the program from 8pm-11pm. Saturday is a full day and Sunday finishes around 5pm. She said she would only commit to participating through Saturday.
3) Being judged by others. I explained that the only time we share anything with the group is during introductions. I told her my intent is not to go there to guilt or ambush her or bring up the past. I said the first weekend is not the time to address those issues. Rather to give us a new methodology to communicate and a foundation for the present and going forward.
4) Her uncommon views of MR not agreeing with the Christian definition of MR. I asked her to help me understand this more and she basically stated that she doesn't believe in MR and implied that she can't be (or doesn't want to be) monogamous. She said that I shouldn't have high expectations and not be surprised if the teachings don't work on her because I will likely be disappointed.
At that point, I brought up the primary requirement of not being involved with OM. I told her that I know she has been involved with OM1 and OM2 in the past 9 months since BD (not a surprise to her as she knows that I know about the PA with OM2). I also told her that I know that she has continued that interaction with OM in the 4+ months since she moved out. I told her that it is a requirement that those relationships be over before attending Rville and I asked if those are still going to be going on. Her reply was waffling and vague at best. She said "No, I don't think so, no probably not, I don't even talk to OM2 anymore, and there is nothing with OM1." I didn't bring up OM3 which I believe is still a full blown PA and neither did she. Maybe that was a missed opportunity, I don't know if I should have challenged her on OM3 or not. I chose not to because I felt there was really nothing I can do to stop it, has to be her choice.
The door was open for her to be honest about her affairs, but she was still not willing to open up about them. I told her that honesty is very important to me moving forward and that is what I want to show her and the example I want to set for our kids. I told her I don't really know how she feels in the 4+ months since leaving since this is really the first time we really talked like this. I told her that I've tried to give her space and distance over this time to figure things out as she requested and she agreed that I have. She said she still doesn't know how she feels. I said there are some things better unknown because it's kind of like once you've seen it, then it can't be unseen. I told her that I can know enough about the past without knowing everything to try and re-establish trust. She said she doesn't know if she can't get passed everything herself and feel like I will not guilt or manipulate or be able to trust her. I replied I don't know either and won't until we are ready to try.
She said "It's me, I don't know if I can get over my transgressions." She said she hasn't been single in her life except one month between her sophomore and junior years in high school. She said she's been single over the past 9 months and I thought to myself really, you're in contact with OM on a daily basis. She said that her problem is that she goes from one fantasy to the next always looking for the ideal, that she's always lived that way and never truly lives in reality. She said she doesn't know if she can live in reality because that's not who she is. She said she really doesn't know who she is or what she wants or how she feels.
She said we are good friends right now and that's it. She doesn't feel anything else for me (FZ...great). I told her I need to be more than just friends, I want to be more than an afterthought. She complained about not being able to live the way she wants financially right now. She teared up and said she doesn't want to come back only for materialistic reasons. I agreed with her that's not why I want her to come back either, I said I want her to come back because she wants to be with me. It was quite late at this time, she was tired, and wanted to go back to her place. I thanked her for being open and said I appreciated the honesty and we said goodnight.
Well, that was the talk in a nutshell. At the moment, still a green light for Retrouvaille with a partial commitment for the weekend. It remains to be seen how deep she'll be in her affairs when it is scheduled to begin in 6 weeks. The Rville program details and addressing her concerns evolved into a R talk. I kept my cool and did not try to criticize, attack, or judge. I basically tried to accept who she is right now, what's done is done, and focus on how to move forward. I used several validating comments, asked a few questions to clarify and better understand what she was saying, and mostly tried to listen and not convince her. She clearly has a lack of attraction and minimal respect for me right now. I feel like telling her that she will not know how she feels about me and us until she breaks off all contact with the OM. I've read that it can take 6-24 months to get over an A. Every time they make contact her clock resets to zero. I really don't think she understands that or doesn't want to end it, or doesn't know how to break free from it.
Not sure where to go from here, ask for NC with OM? Or let things ride, let her fix her own problems, be the lighthouse, and wait for Rville?
Hey curtis, you are light years distance from DB doing what you´ve done. I´m sorry to tell you man...
Just give her time and space. Stop pushing. Detach and do your life. GAL like a mad man. Don´t wait for crumbs. You can´t force her back.
Go to DB basics, page 1. Start all that again.
Forget about Retrouvaille. Have some dignity and tell her she´s free to live her fantasy life. Respect yourself Curtis. Get out of that vicious cycle, it goes down and down. Emerge, onward and upward. Your family needs the lighthouse shining. Your children need to see that light. It´s yours! Shine!
NO FEAR
Stay strong there Curtis, Please excuse me for being so harsh. Your W needs to get out of her fantasy world. I was there some time ago...it´s no real. But you need to let her go and face reality too. Your family deserves that.
Be strong man. Go dark and keep DB.
RESPECT. NO FEAR
(((((((((Curtis))))))))))
She said she would only commit to participating through Saturday.
Too hard to give up a whole weekend for the marriage? I guess that's the value she places on it.
Yea, everyone is already judging her, and her feelings about people judging her for her terrible actions are more important that how she has hurt you.
I asked her to help me understand this more and she basically stated that she doesn't believe in MR and implied that she can't be (or doesn't want to be) monogamous.
That's a secular view as well as Christian. She can't be monogamous? How were you able to hold your food down?
I don't know if I should have challenged her on OM3 or not.
NOOOOO. Never again. Stop bringing up the OM. She is always going to be able to find another OM. The OM is not the problem, she is!
She said "It's me, I don't know if I can get over my transgressions." She said she hasn't been single in her life except one month between her sophomore and junior years in high school.
Apparently she has forgotten how marriage works and needed to vocalize this to remind herself.
She said we are good friends right now and that's it.
Good lord, Curtis.
At the moment, still a green light for Retrouvaille with a partial commitment for the weekend.
I'm not sure why you think that. Because you pressured her into an R talk where she stated she can't be monogamous and she sees you as a friend only and is fine disrespecting you openly and behind your back and that she is hurting financially (oh poor her!)?
I feel like telling her that she will not know how she feels about me and us until she breaks off all contact with the OM.
And she will lie to you and say "OK maybe" or just remind you how she doesn't want to be monogamous and how she loves the "single life". Why would you ever say that? In her mind y'all aren't married. In your mind you are still married to her. You have to come to peace with the difference there.
Not sure where to go from here, ask for NC with OM? Or let things ride, let her fix her own problems, be the lighthouse, and wait for Rville?
How about get rid of the horse, set a parenting schedule, tell her not come over, and tell her only to call in case of emergencies. When she shows up to pick up the kids you send them outside. When you pick up the kids you don't go inside. YOU go NC with your W.
Your acting like Did, a poster we had here for a while who never let go. And believe me I was in your shoes Curtis. I made all the mistakes too. Try giving your W some real space. Just a few weeks ago you were ready to file for D. Now you're trying to pressure her back into the MR. If you keep this up, you're going just file for D without ever giving yourself or your W that space.
Curt,
You are forcing this Rville situation. Listen, you having to do a lot of convincing to get her to go. You are almost having to drag her there. She has not committed to going or doing the work. I really think you think, if you just get her there she will see the M is important, she will come around. But, I think she will more than likely rebel more. She is in full on rebellion.
Your W is way off from Rville. She's not ready and if you blow that card now when/if she does become ready it might leave a bad taste in her mouth for later on.
You are ready to ask for NC with OM, but you didn't even bring him up. You had an opportunity to lay it all out, but you back tracked. Your WW, hasn't shown any remorse, and actually, she explained to you, that she is deep in fantasies, more than one. Your WW hasn't shown any signs of commitment, so you are not in the right timeframe or spot to ask for NC. Your WW don't even know you know about him.
You are TOOO worried about what you WW will do. The hold DB process is about YOU getting better, healing, and becoming attractive again.
You were telling her what you wanted, while she was telling you what she's going to do and not do. And nothing she has said or done, amounts to her wanting to come back.
Let me state the above again. You were telling your wife (talking not doing) what you wanted. And you WW was telling you what she will and won't do (HER ACTIONS). Her actions and your wants, are far apart.
Break contact, cancel the Rville (for now) and focus on detaching and GAL without your WW.
onward and forward
C,
I’m not going to pile on you because our nicest poster got you pretty good. I just want to add that my guess part of your problem in your marriage is you didn’t listen to her. You’re trying to push Retroville on her when she’s telling you she can’t be monogamous. When someone tells you who they are believe them.
All you are doing right now is reminding her she has no romantic feelings for you.
I’m very curious as to why you have never tried to actually DB?
Curtis, I'm afraid I have to agree with Neffer and Joe, You're trying to force RV down her throat and it's just going to be a huge failure. I've been through it, I know exactly what happens there and what the atmosphere is and I guarantee you she is not going to embrace it given her current mindset. I think you should punt.
They also stated that a commitment needs to be made to attend both the weekend and all 6 post sessions. Again, they stated the program doesn't work if the post sessions aren't attended as well.
Having been through it and half the followup sessions, my take is that you've got this backwards. Or if they explained it that way then they have it backwards. The problem is this- if one or both of the couple don't buy in then they are not going to finish the followups. It's not that the program doesn't work unless you complete it all, it's that if your W isn't "all in" then you'll likely never make it through all the followups (which is what happened to me). The program doesn't work with a full-blown WAS, I am 100% convinced of that. It works wonders for someone who is on their way to being a WAS, or for struggling couples trying to figure out why they are not getting along. But once one has both feet out the door it's not going to pull them back in.
She said she would only commit to participating through Saturday.
Then don't go. If she can't even commit to the whole weekend then there's no point.
Being judged by others. I explained that the only time we share anything with the group is during introductions.
It's actually peppered through the program. But it is completely voluntary. You can really unload, or you can say nothing.
4) Her uncommon views of MR not agreeing with the Christian definition of MR. I asked her to help me understand this more and she basically stated that she doesn't believe in MR and implied that she can't be (or doesn't want to be) monogamous. She said that I shouldn't have high expectations and not be surprised if the teachings don't work on her because I will likely be disappointed.
All RV works on is communication. If she doesn't believe in marriage or monogamy, there's nothing that will happen there that will change her mind.
The door was open for her to be honest about her affairs, but she was still not willing to open up about them. I told her that honesty is very important to me moving forward and that is what I want to show her and the example I want to set for our kids. I told her I don't really know how she feels in the 4+ months since leaving since this is really the first time we really talked like this. I told her that I've tried to give her space and distance over this time to figure things out as she requested and she agreed that I have. She said she still doesn't know how she feels. I said there are some things better unknown because it's kind of like once you've seen it, then it can't be unseen. I told her that I can know enough about the past without knowing everything to try and re-establish trust. She said she doesn't know if she can't get passed everything herself and feel like I will not guilt or manipulate or be able to trust her. I replied I don't know either and won't until we are ready to try.
That was one big R talk that accomplished absolutely nothing. I'm wondering why you thought this was a good time to start pushing and pursuing her? Because it's seems like a really bad time to do it to me.
She said we are good friends right now and that's it. She doesn't feel anything else for me (FZ...great). I told her I need to be more than just friends, I want to be more than an afterthought. She complained about not being able to live the way she wants financially right now. She teared up and said she doesn't want to come back only for materialistic reasons. I agreed with her that's not why I want her to come back either, I said I want her to come back because she wants to be with me.
I can't stress enough that this convo should absolutely, positively not have happened. You are just pushing her farther and farther away. You're sounding desperate and needy.
She clearly has a lack of attraction and minimal respect for me right now.
Yes.
I feel like telling her that she will not know how she feels about me and us until she breaks off all contact with the OM.
You're wasting your time. Do this- cancel RV. Tell her you realize after your talk with her that it's not an appropriate time for that. Then completely and fully detach from her. No R talks, no chatty convos, no cutesy texts, NOTHING. You want to possibly save your M? Stop what you're doing and start DB'ing.
Hey C, how are things going? Give us an update please!
Hey C, how are things going? Give us an update please!
I’ll give a longer update soon, but I just had to share this, seriously can’t make this stuff up.
I’m out with the kids enjoying a thrilling round of mini golf. I just received the following texts from WW out of the blue within a span of 15 minutes.
WW: “So OM3 is ignoring me now. It irritates me that he gets to control when we speak and when we don’t.”
WW: “Oh sorry that was for divorced BFF...I’ll explain if you want. It isn’t as bad as it sounds.”
WW: “Anyway...big news. Horse we’re boarding jumped out the stall window so there are about 10 people taking care of that stupid twit.”
I have no words...feeling like I’m done again. Why tolerate this any longer?
Do I let her explain? TBH, her words mean next to nothing to me. She needs to show me with actions. I’m thinking about going as dark as possible and only allowing contact if it’s an emergency related to the kids.
Maybe she doesn’t understand that one of my non-negotiables is that she is 100% NC with her APs. Is this the time to tell her?
I could say/text the following to buy some more time to think this through: “I don't know what I want, I have a lot of thinking to do and I think it would be best if we are out of contact for a while."
I would really appreciate feedback from some vets. Am I overreacting that she still wants to be in contact with OM3? I also know she was in contact with OM2 earlier this week. No idea if she is setting up physical encounters or just can’t break free of them emotionally and needs to keep them on the hook. If I allow her to explain and it’s peppered with lies, then I go completely dark and NC?
Yes,
you need to go as dark as possible. Get rid of the horse. She should have no reason to come visit. Set a schedule for parenting. Phone calls only in emergencies. When she calls/texts and it's not an emergency you state that it's not an emergency and hang up or ignore if it's a text. She is bothered by not being the center of attention. It pisses her off that the OM ignores her, so use that to your advantage.
Maybe she doesn’t understand that one of my non-negotiables is that she is 100% NC with her APs. Is this the time to tell her?
SHE DOESN'T CARE. Saying this just solidifies how badly you want her and keeps you on the back burner. Don't text her anything about going out of contact, just show her.
She is a WW doing WW things. Why are you still tracking her comms? It only keeps you unhealthily attached. Don't "allow her to explain" just start moving on. She has never had to miss you Curtis, you've been there every step of the way.
You really need to just not see or talk to her for a while. You haven't had that in your sitch yet.
Curt,
Why, why do you want an explanation? You know all you're going to get are lies. You keep telling us what you are thinking about doing, and asking us what should you say. And we keep saying stop telling her things, show her with actions. You don't have to send warning messages. Just do what you are trying to warn her you are about to do. If she knows what's about to come, she will just prepare for it.
Maybe she don't care what your non-negotiables are. You are trying to shake her out the tree. We keep telling you to leave the tree alone and she will come down herself.
So, my advice is to stop telling her what you are about to do and do it.
Actions actions actions.
Yes, you need to go as dark as possible.
Don't text her anything about going out of contact, just show her.
Don't "allow her to explain" just start moving on. She has never had to miss you Curtis, you've been there every step of the way.
You really need to just not see or talk to her for a while. You haven't had that in your sitch yet.
YES!!! You are right Over. I haven’t responded to any of her texts from last night. S8 had his baseball assessments for the fall season this morning and W texted asking who was going to watch D5. I did not respond. It’s my weekend with the kids, not an emergency, I don’t need her.
Why, why do you want an explanation? You know all you're going to get are lies. You keep telling us what you are thinking about doing, and asking us what should you say. And we keep saying stop telling her things, show her with actions. You don't have to send warning messages. Just do what you are trying to warn her you are about to do. If she knows what's about to come, she will just prepare for it.
Maybe she don't care what your non-negotiables are. You are trying to shake her out the tree. We keep telling you to leave the tree alone and she will come down herself.
So, my advice is to stop telling her what you are about to do and do it.
Actions actions actions.
Joejoe, here is the action she will feel. I don’t want to see her, I don’t want to talk to her, I don’t want to hear from her. The time has come to go completely dark. She can decide what that means and do what she chooses. It’s going to stay this way for a while or until I ever receive an apology for what she’s done to me and our family that I feel shows true remorse.
Btw, I had not registered us for Retrouvaille and have no intention to anymore. That’s an action she can take.
WW: “So OM3 is ignoring me now. It irritates me that he gets to control when we speak and when we don’t.”
That's your clue right there! No, I'm not saying you should respond to her texts so she doesn't get irritated. I'm saying don't respond b/c it DOES! If OM3 was eagerly responding to her texts and showering her with attention, do you think it would bother her that "he gets to control when they speak and when they don't"? Of course not! She would be looking for OM4.
Don't give her the satisfaction.
Besides, you have too much self-respect to listen that mess.
BTW, notice how she throws around that word "control".
This woman is out of control, period.
WW: “So OM3 is ignoring me now. It irritates me that he gets to control when we speak and when we don’t.”
That's your clue right there! No, I'm not saying you should respond to her texts so she doesn't get irritated. I'm saying don't respond b/c it DOES! If OM3 was eagerly responding to her texts and showering her with attention, do you think it would bother her that "he gets to control when they speak and when they don't"? Of course not! She would be looking for OM4.
Don't give her the satisfaction.
Besides, you have too much self-respect to listen that mess.
BTW, notice how she throws around that word "control".
This woman is out of control, period.
Sandi, being overly controlling was one of her complaints against me. I guess that’s the type she attracts.
Last time I was at her house for kid exchange I noticed two hand written notes on her fridge:
“You are
toxic to everyone around you. STOP!!!”
and
“Everything in your life is a reflection of a choice you made. If you want a different result, make a different choice!”
I agree, she is toxic to me. I also agree with the second note. I want a different result, so I’m making a different choice, NC in this case.
She can get irritated or not about me ignoring her attempted contacts. NC is about protecting myself too. She can have her fantasy secret life, I’m not a part of that anymore. I have too much self-respect to listen to her feeble lies and coverups. I’m moving on.
Headed out with the kids to enjoy dinner at a Japanese Steakhouse with some friends. GAL time!
Last time I was at her house for kid exchange I noticed two hand written notes on her fridge:
“You are toxic to everyone around you. STOP!!!”
and
“Everything in your life is a reflection of a choice you made. If you want a different result, make a different choice!”
Interesting! It's as if those are her sticky-reminders. They are certainly directed at herself, and with some anger.
I wanted to post the email that I sent to WW a few weeks ago when I asked her to attend Retrouvaille and she said yes. I am highly unlikely to be attending anymore at this point, but wanted to share before this thread closes out and possibly help others.
W,
This has been on my heart for several weeks and I want to share it with you and get your thoughts. It's called "Retrouvaille" and it is designed for people in circumstances like ours. Either struggling in their marriages, separated, thinking about divorce, or already divorced. I learned about it from some people that have been in crisis and this helped them quite a bit. Many of them that have successfully come back from the brink swear by it and encourage people like us to go. It's not a "marriage retreat" or some kind of "love-in". From what I have learned it is designed to help couples heal, renew, and learn to communicate beyond the past that has landed them in crisis. No guarantees at all, but I would be willing to give it a shot. Seems like a safe, non-judgmental environment (that is how it has been described by those who have gone).
It's an international group with meetings all over the world. There is one in our area in September. Considering all that has happened and with BFF’s H passing, it's reinforced to me that you are the most important person in my life and that you are irreplaceable. I'd be willing to give it a try if you would. I think we both may regret it someday if we don't do everything we can to try. I would be going with no expectations, just an open mind.
It's certainly not something that I think I would have done in the past. I think most (if not ALL) of the work is individual or couple, no "group sharing". The link is below, take a look at it and please let me know your thoughts. It's church-based, but not religious.
H
Journaling.
Filling in some gaps in the week leading up to WW's inadvertent text to me about OM3.
Last weekend we held a birthday party for D5. W and I got along well with the setup and hosting the event with friends. It was a very special day for our D. I was thinking to myself throughout that this could be the last family get together that I participate in with her.
Early last week, WW was contacted by OM2 (25 year old pickup artist AP) asking how she was doing. She replied she was thinking of contacting him the night before to see how he was doing but chickened out. They also discussed OM3 and she replied how he snapped a couple times on her, but she would keep going back to him as she said the problem is he is very...persuasive.
Then she texted OM2: "To be honest I was in a bad place for awhile. My pure selfishness hit me hard. Ugly and shameful. I'm so sorry. I really appreciate you telling me you're okay."
I really don't know what to make of this exchange with OM2. She clearly is still thinking of him and OM3. I just don't see her going full NC on her own. I've given her the benefit of the doubt so often since BD and I'm really over it. She needs to do the hard work. Even tonight I'm spinning a bit on whether to extend an olive branch and tell her that I will listen to her explanation about OM3. That lasted for about 10 minutes, before I concluded that it will probably be more lies. The problem I have is this lingering notion in the back of my head that perhaps she is slowly trying to end her contact with the OM and she needs to do it her own way and on her own timeline.
Who knows, I'm not a mind reader, does anyone think I should give her the benefit of the doubt and allow her to explain? If it is less than full disclosure or contains lies, then I end the call/talk immediately? Or do I let this marinate longer and let her come back to me if she ever wants to explain herself?
W and I also reached a milestone last week. 15th wedding anniversary. She did not acknowledge the momentous occasion all day. When I got home from work, she was on the lawn tractor mowing the horse pasture. I guess that was my gift. I did make a 3 picture collage of photos of the kids that she had not seen previously and texted it to her late evening. I included the following text overlay "It's worth remembering we did some things right" and added the anniversary date. She simply replied "awww, thank you." I replied "Thank you for mowing the pasture, I know you have a lot to juggle and don't know how you do it." She replied "You seem to be doing a great job." I wasn't broken up about her not recognizing the anniversary, my primary thought was wondering if there will be a 16th next year.
I've been NC for 48 hours. She has only sent 5 texts during this time which were about watching D5 during S8's baseball assessments, horse feeding instructions from the boarder, kid exchange time, and asking who was feeding horses tonight. I responded to none of the texts. I dropped the kids at her place, watched them walk in the house, and didn't get out of the car.
If I could predict the future, I expect her to contact a L on Monday and start the D process. This is usually her impulsive response or threat when she doesn't like the way I'm treating her or when I'm "icing" her and not responding.
Curt,
You keep asking the same questions. I promise you will keep getting the same answers.
You keep doing the same things with you WW, I promise you will keep getting the same results!
You know the answers, I truly believe, you don't won't to deal with the outcome. Guess what, nobody does. Stop doing the same things. If she threatens you with a D, don't let that bother you, why would you, you are her third option right now. Ha third option. I used ha, lol.
So no, don't ask for an explanation!!!! You don't need, you just WANT it.
Please, please, please, start respecting yourself, because your WW sure isn't. How can you expect another person to start respecting you, when you aren't respecting yourself.
It's time to do the hard right!!!!!! It's going to hurt, you are going to spin. It's no way around it, only thru. So buckle up, these roller coaster rides are wild and bumpy as hell.
Onward and upward
However hard it sounds, you have to be positive for yourself.
Do whatever it takes to keep your mind in a good state, and keep doing that every day. It'll then become part of your daily routine. You'll feel confident and better about yourself.
Don't tell your WW what you're doing, just do it and let her see the changes.
C,
I really don't know what to say to you anymore. Did you really think acknowledging the anniversary was going to make her melt and run back to your arms? You can't play family with her, be her farm hand and her therapist and then go no contact for two days and not answer her routine questions. You're inconsistencies are going to are likely just to piss her off. Don't get me wrong it's ok to piss her off but only when you're commanding respect.
I really wish you would actually try DB but apparently you know better then AS, Sandi, Joejoe, Neffer etc.
Lastly I saw your post on Kikos thread and he gave you great advice. Retroville is not for your situation.
Curtis,
I've been there and done that when it comes to trying to keep a death grip on my WW. I understand that pain and the resistance to letting go. I read your post yesterday and didn't want to repeat myself, I didn't know what else to say. But yes, your W will get mad and be confused. I think my general message has been the same for at least a month. A while back, you were about to break through and she threw some bread crumbs which you happily named a feast.
Really it's time to DB, time to quit worrying about her. You keep trying to analyze her conversations with other men, why? Sever that connection! Make it to where you can't see it anymore. It keeps setting you back.
You want to know what I make of her convos with the OM? That she is screwed up right now. And that's what the OM think too, but they listen because they want some hanky panky. There is zero point to bring it up ever again unless your W is begging for you back.
Have you set a parenting schedule so that you don't have to text your W about it? Have you figured out a plan to get her horse under her care so that you don't have to text your W about it? These are kind of important things that need to be figured out. Once you have a plan, you stick to it and THEN there is nothing to talk about. But just going NC without taking care of stuff first is strange IMO. When I went NC with my W, there was nothing we needed to discuss anymore. We don't have kids or horses or anything. We knew who was paying what bills basically and that was that.
I really don't know what to say to you anymore. Did you really think acknowledging the anniversary was going to make her melt and run back to your arms? You can't play family with her, be her farm hand and her therapist and then go no contact for two days and not answer her routine questions. You're inconsistencies are going to are likely just to piss her off. Don't get me wrong it's ok to piss her off but only when you're commanding respect.
I really wish you would actually try DB but apparently you know better then AS, Sandi, Joejoe, Neffer etc.
Lastly I saw your post on Kikos thread and he gave you great advice. Retroville is not for your situation.
LH, no I didn't think the anniversary photo text of my kids would have any bearing on how she feels about me. I sent it for myself. Our wedding day was one of the greatest days of my life. I'm still married to her (legally) and I wanted to acknowledge the occasion and let her know it wasn't all bad and good things did come out of it.
I agree that the family activities and feeding her cake followed by NC seem inconsistent, but there was clearly a catalyst here when she sent me the inadvertent text about OM3 that she should understand.
The Retrouvaille situation was a catch 22 for me. I had zero expectations she would say yes, but didn't want to have regrets in the future that I didn't try everything while fighting for my MR. I was prepared to confront and start the D process and was shocked when she agreed. This extended my timeline again. I realize my situation and where she's at mentally is not conducive for the program to be effective. My thought was if there was even a 1 in 100, 1 in 1000, or 1 in 1,000,000 chance, then it's worth a weekend of my life to try and save my MR and family.
I'm not discounting the DB guidance provided by the experts here. It has done wonders on letting her words and actions have less and less of an impact on me. I've come to grips that my old MR is over and she is so far off in la la land that it may take years for her to come out. I want to be in a loving relationship, if not with her, then with someone else. My patience is gone. I have been mentally tired and drained for months. I have put up with so much poor behavior and disrespect and it devastated my emotional well being for a long time. I have picked myself up and recovered. Rebuilt myself into the man I want to be going forward. My kids will know in the future that I did all I could. I didn't take the easy path, I didn't follow so many others in today's cut and run culture. I stood for what I believe in until I had no fight left. The problem is that I married a quitter and I couldn't force her to change, accelerate her journey, or escape her fantasies and addiction.
You keep asking the same questions. I promise you will keep getting the same answers.
You keep doing the same things with you WW, I promise you will keep getting the same results!
You know the answers, I truly believe, you don't won't to deal with the outcome. Guess what, nobody does. Stop doing the same things. If she threatens you with a D, don't let that bother you, why would you, you are her third option right now. Ha third option. I used ha, lol.
So no, don't ask for an explanation!!!! You don't need, you just WANT it.
Please, please, please, start respecting yourself, because your WW sure isn't. How can you expect another person to start respecting you, when you aren't respecting yourself.
Joe, on the third day of NC, why called pissed off that I wasn't responding to her texts about the kids and the horse. So, I'm the bad guy for ignoring her after she sent me an errant text about OM3. I said why would you expect me to respond when you told me your other relationships would be over when you agreed to attend Rville, then I get a text that indicates they are clearly ongoing. From there I mostly listened. She said OM3 was a friend that she likes to talk to and that he was pissing her off. She said even yesterday he was trying to give her parenting advice about our kids. She said he can be a real jerk and flip for no reason, but she still wants to be in contact with him (she must be "in-love"). She admitted to having sex with him. She said the relationship will never work out because he lives 2 hours away, won't leave his job, and she won't give up custody. However, she won't break it off, because she can't get over why she would be doing that if she felt differently about me.
The things she said about the OM were compounding lies. She would speak in half-truths and lie upon lie to cover up her misdeeds to make herself out to be less awful than she's been. I just told her that I need honesty so we can put all of this behind us once and for all and move forward. She said neither of us can get passed this. I told her you don't know what I can and cannot forgive. Forgiveness is for me and that is for me to decide. She said she's had to distance herself from friends and family because they are judging her and say what they think she should be doing (work on the MR), but it doesn't agree with how she feels or what she wants, so she feels guilty and is conflicted.
She justified her feelings by saying my changes are manipulation to get her back, they won't last, and that I won't get what I want. I told her my changes are for me and the person I want to be going forward. She continued on into full MLC spew about always having to wait to get what she wants, that we aren't getting any younger, others judging her and taking my side due to the S, and how the kids will be fine.
I read your post yesterday and didn't want to repeat myself, I didn't know what else to say. But yes, your W will get mad and be confused.
Have you set a parenting schedule so that you don't have to text your W about it? Have you figured out a plan to get her horse under her care so that you don't have to text your W about it? These are kind of important things that need to be figured out. Once you have a plan, you stick to it and THEN there is nothing to talk about. But just going NC without taking care of stuff first is strange IMO.
Yes, parenting schedule is set along with horse care.
I told her that we should limit contact to emergency issues related to the kids only. She said I'm trying to punish her and that me not contacting her and refusing to take care of her horse is vindictive. Then, she accused me of being like divorced BFF's XH. She said we need to be able to talk about the kids. I told her if she calls, I will hand the phone to the kids. Regarding the horse, I said you fired me as your H over 9 months ago, I'm done taking care of your horse.
I told her that I can't continue this arrangement waiting for her to decide. I ended the call by saying as long as you are in contact with OM, then I need to protect myself, and limit my contact with you only as it relates to the kids. She fired back "Other Men", there are not "Other Men, don't make me out to be a f'n whore." I said fine, whatever, OM3.
The call did not go well and was more of the same as expected. I remained calm and collected throughout with some validation. Much of the spew was not deserving of validation. I don't think I'm worse off than I was. She had the opportunity to be open and honest, but once again chose the path of rampant lies. I should have shut it down after the first lie, or at the beginning of the call for that matter, but continued to listen to find out if she had made any positive movement. She reinforced her lack of feelings and respect for me. I feel she still completely resents me, seemingly no progress on that front in 9+ months.
As expected, W met with her L yesterday afternoon for a couple hours to work on sealing my fate. I feel she is setting all of this up according to her initial plan of being physically separated for about 6 months. Making sure she had her own place, could get her feet under her, and live on her own. Then, end the MR, showing friends and family that she gave it time and decided D was the right choice.
I plan to stay dim/dark in the weeks ahead and improve my DBing. She has a ton of work to do on herself. I just don't see her putting in the effort on that front. She's still a long ways off from rock bottom. If she brings up D, or paperwork arrives, I'm prepared emotionally for that outcome. I expect it at this point. I guess you could say my expectations are zero for saving my MR and high for it coming to an end.
Interesting that with OM3 she can't have her way with and he pisses her off and yet she's sleeping with him and then there is her husband and she says "jump" and he says "how high" and she has no respect or attraction to him.
Look Curtis the reality is you never really stood a chance anyway but I think you're going to regret that you never tried to DB. I really hope you can move forward and raise your boys and teach them about respect and honor. If you have ever seen the movie 300 there is a a scene where King Leonidas says to his son "don't forget today's lesson" and his son says "respect and honor".
So you told her you're done taking care of her horse. Are you a man of your word?
Curtis, you are the master of your fate.
You are a role model for your kids. Honor them.
Honor and respect!
I don't know why you break NC to listen to her BS. Now that you have a schedule set it's on you to leave her alone.
Listen to what LH said about OM3 vs you...
Curtis. Isn't it amazing how they refuse to take accountability or responsibility for the consequences and outcomes due to their decisions and actions? She has had to distance herself from family and friends of moral standards that are judging her and slut shaming her for her actions. She even says herself, despite her clearly knowing that you know that there are 3 other men, she attempts to falsely and arrogantly justify her actions, and falsely socially lift herself up on a social pedestal thus contradicting herself by saying "There are not other men, don't make me out to be a f'in whore." OM3 is giving her parenting advice, is treating her poorly, and she is even rebelling to some degree against him. (Most likely for him giving her unsolicited advise on parenting, which feels like another form of control to her.) But is still considering him an option, even though she contradicts herself that it won't work because he is two hours away. Based off her divorced BFF H and BFF's experience and validation of seeing herself, her feelings, and circumstances in her BFF, she is comparing him to you as being controlling because you set clear, good and healthy boundaries as well as responsibility since she fired you as her H as far as the Horse and the property is concerned.
Her opinion of your changes is again re-writing of marital history, and after so many years of "her knowing you, your behaviors, and habits" she is convinced that your attempts to change, or lack of change is only to manipulate them back into a relationship or M. They are convinced because of their experiences over long periods of time and past events. Right, wrong, good, bad, or indifferent. The irony of this is that they themselves do not realize that they have changed too. They took their vows based on their feelings on their wedding day, and not on actual principles or values.
They have bought the narrative from validation from outside sources and influences, such as family members, books, divorced BFF, IC, D attorney, etc. They seek people similar to how they ae currently feeling. Validation I've noticed, although I am poor at it, I've realized something about it. It coincides with confidence. Confidence of the WAW to leave the M based on their own self worth, and their worth of the opinion of their social peers, (which is underlyingly and probably more important to them then then the opinion of themselves.) They have this confidence to leave because they are unhappy, and don't want to feel or be controlled, submissive, or be obedient to their husband, hence the term "Wayward" They have no respect for you because of your behaviors, but also if you look carefully to their actions and not their words, they have no respect or worth for themselves. (The same goes for us too.) I can confidently state this as a solid opinion because everyone seems to be looking for their happiness and purpose outside of themselves, rather than within. Yes we all want freedom, experiences, novelty, purpose, and goal achievements. But unless we do the work and they as well on ourselves we will all keep repeating the same patterns in our future relationships.
They seek reassurance from sources that boost their confidence that they are making the right decisions, without really examining the sources, their morals, principles, or values. Validation without the solid principles or morals can lead someone astray in the long term. Validation is a two way street I've noticed that needs to be handled delicately. You want to in a sense acknowledge their feelings without coming across as disingenuous, but not actually cement their feelings as fact, with you assuming the accountability and responsibility of their feelings for why they think you did XY and Z wrong from past experiences. By all means take accountability to correct those things as your 180's but do not let your WW make you take the entire blame for the M failure. (Most likely they're going to take as little accountability as possible and hold you responsible for the failure because it's all about them right now, playing victim status to the M while at the same time justifying their irresponsible behavior.)
They're going to repeat these mistakes over and over again looking for confidence in another person in a relationship, slowly undermine the other person's confidence in the R, and the other person, and then start taking them apart once the honeymoon phase ends, never being satisfied and then they are going to go to the next person, and the next person and so on.
The next time you have a discussion with WW about anything other than logistics or kids, D procedure, or just anything casual in passing, Especially if its about OM1, OM2 or OM3 SHUT IT DOWN, HANGUP OR WALK AWAY. You are not her therapist, and it is well past the point of no return have you listening to her other than for a business transaction, because that's all she used to treating you as is a business transaction between the division of all your stuff, the divorce papers, and the kids. I think you're doing a hell of a job though putting things into action as far as making changes, a lot better than I am. You are doing a good job. Just make sure to keep your self-respect intact.
Curtis, you're on page 11 so time for a new thread!
Early last week, WW was contacted by OM2 (25 year old pickup artist AP) asking how she was doing. She replied she was thinking of contacting him the night before to see how he was doing but chickened out. They also discussed OM3 and she replied how he snapped a couple times on her, but she would keep going back to him as she said the problem is he is very...persuasive.
Then she texted OM2: "To be honest I was in a bad place for awhile. My pure selfishness hit me hard. Ugly and shameful. I'm so sorry. I really appreciate you telling me you're okay."
How do you know so much detail about their convos? You already know she's engaging in affairs. So don't snoop, because it'll just drive you crazy and you won't learn anything you don't already know.
I really don't know what to make of this exchange with OM2. She clearly is still thinking of him and OM3. I just don't see her going full NC on her own. I've given her the benefit of the doubt so often since BD and I'm really over it.
First what you need to make of it is she is having an affair. She's cheating on you. She's done with you. So you need to react accordingly. You seem to be hanging onto this idea that she's still one foot in the M, well she's not. She's a full-blown wayward with both feet out the door. Maybe she'll come back some day but not anytime soon. Second, benefit of the doubt? Why would you give your cheating W the benefit of the doubt? She's cheating! I'm sorry if my driving that point home hurts, but it seems like you're in denial over how serious this is.
She needs to do the hard work. Even tonight I'm spinning a bit on whether to extend an olive branch and tell her that I will listen to her explanation about OM3.
She's not going to do any hard work, medium work or even easy work for a long time. Let go of the idea that she's coming around soon, she's not. As for an explanation on OM3, why bother. An affair is an affair is an affair. There is no "explanation" that can reason it away.
That lasted for about 10 minutes, before I concluded that it will probably be more lies.
Yes, lying and secrecy (withholding of information is another form of lying) go hand-in-hand with affairs.
Who knows, I'm not a mind reader, does anyone think I should give her the benefit of the doubt and allow her to explain? If it is less than full disclosure or contains lies, then I end the call/talk immediately? Or do I let this marinate longer and let her come back to me if she ever wants to explain herself?
None of that. YOU work on YOU. Detach. GAL. Leave her alone. You've got to build some distance between the two of you before she might start to miss you. And I don't mean 48 hours of NC! We're talking months of little to no contact.
Start a new thread and link both threads together.