Divorcebusting.com
Posted By: kiro Life goes on - 07/12/19 08:06 PM
Previous thread:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2841642&page=1
Posted By: kiro Re: Life goes on - 07/12/19 08:17 PM
I extracted the following quote from an article about women choosing to not have kids:

ę†In order to argue ďreligion,Ē you have to believe in it, and people who believe in it arenít undecided on kids, so donít need this post. Itís for everyone who doesnít use religion, and needs discussions outside of it.†Ľ

It struck me that this quote also applies to marriage.

I think it really sums up the whole problem. Theyíre all tied together. Belief in religion, marriage, stable family, and having kids. Once this chain is broken, it all falls apart.
Posted By: Destroyd Re: Life goes on - 07/12/19 09:08 PM
I agree with this, Kiro. Without religion people tend to have no true values to get them to do the right thing when they want to rebel.
Posted By: IHCLACS Re: Life goes on - 07/12/19 09:47 PM
Originally Posted by Destroyd
I agree with this, Kiro. Without religion people tend to have no true values to get them to do the right thing when they want to rebel.


This goes for ourselves as well as our spouses. Sometimes we even BS ourselves. That a person is right for us clearly when we know that all that they are and do are all wrong for us. This is why the Bible clearly says that feelings can be deceived. It's nature to act on feelings and been that way since Adam and Eve. You need biblical principles to follow for God to guide you through your life rather than you doing it on your own "self independence" I freely admit though I am somewhat of a hypocrite because even though I know this I need to practice more of what I preach. I struggle a lot between the natural and the spiritual. I've been throwing this Dynamic out here and everyone for weeks now. You subtly see it movies like Fireproof. A man wants to be respected and trusted before he is loved. A woman wants to feel cherished and valued as well as respected and loved. Well what happens when you break your word, you disappoint, or you don't follow through. You are no longer respected. What happens when you rebell, disrespect, strive for self Independence and false confidence. Yes you grow and you empower yourself. But I'm willing to bet the next relationship won't last for the very long whole maybe short-term? Confidence income from two places either God himself, or from experience in the world. Otherwise it is self-inflating, And over compensating for some hidden insecurities. The heart can be deceived and feelings can lead us to all the wrong places even though we think it's right in pursuing them. It may also by chance lead us to the right places as well. What God is the creator Who would know better than him and his patrons that gave testimony to him and Jesus Christ. When we think we can do whatever we want that's when we feel the most pain whether five years from now or ten years from now. We have to learn to stay on the steady course. There is one for you. God reconciled himself to man for their sins and their nature who died for us to save us. I understand that people should leave if they are in a very bad in threatening situation. But IMO, not to reconcile yourself to your spouse or even make an attempt to because of all of your conflicts disagreements resentments feelings excetera and lack of understanding, cannot reconcile yourself to what Corinthians in the Apostle Paul says about marriage. But even with the horse he clearly says that he wants us to go in peace. So sometimes it is a better option. Speaking of options isn't it funny how we always compare our options outside of our own relationship and marriage? That we want to happy for filling life and that moment All That season for a Time, but we have no idea what could happen in the future for us whether we split or whether we try again. People might grow or people might change your people might fall apart. Something profound that I realizd is. Yes we have to self differentiate codependent, but do not keep a lifetime commitment means we couldn't keep any commitments to ourselves in the first place, as far as always working and improving on ourselves as individuals
Posted By: kiro Re: Life goes on - 07/13/19 03:41 PM
Thanks IHCLACS for your post. I didnít understand everything you wrote, but I do agree with the overall meaning smile
Posted By: kiro Re: Life goes on - 07/13/19 04:26 PM
Change of topics a little...

Record of my state of mind 2 years after BD and waiting for final D:

Zero bitterness. Zero anger. No bad feelings toward ex at all.

Although I still believe in family values, I accept that some people may prefer to be single or to have more freedom. Nothing wrong with that. Unluckily for me, my ex bought into that idea. Itís her right and her choice.

For the first time, I think Iím ready to be just a friend with her. I donít feel jealousy if she has a new relationship. I donít feel any need to prove anything to her.

Also, more than any time before, Iím starting to plan for my life going forward without fear of losing her forever and without regret for what we had before. E.g. Iím thinking of selling the house, moving closer to my work and to university campuses.

And I am now rethinking whether I really would want to remarry again. Like the guy said in the MR wheel video that someone had posted on my last thread (before being removed), it might be insanity to do the same thing again and expect a different result. Lol grin

Since I am against relationships outside of a marriage, this means I am considering just staying single for the rest of my life. Although I would miss companionship and especially the small things, like having brief intimate conversations and sharing day to day life, I am also enjoying my freedom. At my age (49 heading into my 50s), I think I can live without physical intimacy. I wouldnít have said that 20 years ago smile
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Life goes on - 07/13/19 04:46 PM
Originally Posted by Destroyd
I agree with this, Kiro. Without religion people tend to have no true values to get them to do the right thing when they want to rebel.


I absolutely disagree with this. Belief in religion is NOT required to "do the right thing", in fact it seems the opposite is true. I know several couples who are agnostic or athiest, one couple is same-sex and they've all been married 25+ years. One of the couples over 35 years. Meanwhile I know plenty of "religious" couples that are separated or divorced. I think "religious" people tend to lean on their beliefs to justify their wayward behavior, using "I'm forgiven" or "God wants me to be happy" as an excuse to stray. People who don't have strong religious beliefs tend to work harder to fix things because they don't believe they have some kind of holy safety net to fall back on.
Posted By: Destroyd Re: Life goes on - 07/13/19 05:11 PM
AS, I don't believe that people need to be religious to do the right thing, but when they want to rebel, I think that religion helps people to do the right thing. The desire to rebel was the point I was emphasizing.
Posted By: kiro Re: Life goes on - 07/13/19 05:21 PM
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
I absolutely disagree with this. Belief in religion is NOT required to "do the right thing", in fact it seems the opposite is true. I know several couples who are agnostic or athiest, one couple is same-sex and they've all been married 25+ years. One of the couples over 35 years. Meanwhile I know plenty of "religious" couples that are separated or divorced. I think "religious" people tend to lean on their beliefs to justify their wayward behavior, using "I'm forgiven" or "God wants me to be happy" as an excuse to stray. People who don't have strong religious beliefs tend to work harder to fix things because they don't believe they have some kind of holy safety net to fall back on.

AS, lol grin
I partially agree with you. I donít think successful marriages and doing the right thing are limited to religious people.

But I donít agree with your comment about religious people justifying waywardness the way you describe it. Itís funny blush but thatís not what I have in mind when I think religious people.

I think TRUE religious people will be more patient and will avoid breaking up their marriage. But their faith needs to be genuine and strong.

On the other hand, the risk for religious people is that they could stay miserably married instead of truly working hard together to improve the relationship. Atheists donít have this constraint. They will either fix it or break it.

P.S. As I said before, I donít see any difference between atheists and agnostics. By definition, belief is an act of faith. Despite the uncertainties, one decides to believe or not to believe. If one believes, he/she is a believer. If she/he doesnít, he/she is a non-believer. The non-believer may say ĎI am atheist and I know there is no Godí, but he/she only thinks he/she knows but isnít able to prove it. So in a way, all atheists are agnostics. The big difference between them and believers is that believers will commit to a religion with their acts.
Posted By: kiro Re: Life goes on - 07/13/19 06:07 PM
From the point of view of a believer, life has a meaning. We donít believe in the absurdity of life like existentialists. We believe in an Absolute Truth. God is not an idea that we create in our mind. Existentialism and Relativism believe that reality is subjective and that each person creates their own world. Each person is a creator of their own truth.

Because there is a true meaning to life, as believers, we know that our acts matter to us and to others. Life is not an absurd haphazard thing. Marriage and family have a true purpose to individuals and to society.

Non-believers, on the other hand, donít have this moral foundation. They only take into consideration their own happiness and other pragmatic considerations. And since their views are relative and subjective, they also have a changing dynamic nature. Itís a pragmatic equation for them, and they follow their feelings and mind to make their decisions. But feelings change all the time. Also, as we grow older, we go through many physical and hormonal changes. I canít list all the reasons peopleís feelings and priorities change with time, but my point is that without a constant moral foundation such as the one that religion provides, most marriages are bound to fail sooner or later.

Of course, there are exceptions to that rule. And even religious people need to learn good relationship habits to have a happy marriage.
Posted By: kiro Re: Life goes on - 07/13/19 06:37 PM
And even non-believers still follow some religious practices without realizing it due to culture and traditions. Marriage itself has its roots in religious practice. The more societies move away from religion, the fewer you will find long term marriages.

As societies become more liberal, we rely more and more on human ideas and Ďscientific studiesí than we rely on Godís texts. This is found everywhere around us. Weíre bombarded all the time with research studies about happiness, about healthy habits, healthy food, etc.

But human ideas evolve all the time. And these studies are often biased and limited. People have more and more options to follow. And with the explosion of the information available, we can find studies that will justify almost any theory we want.

So people are more and more confused because of all of the options available. And this is the only possible result from loss of faith. This is Satanís final and most brilliant contribution: total chaos. Convincing people that God doesnít exist is a very difficult task, but overwhelming people with contradicting information to make them lose sight of the righteous path is a much easier task.
Posted By: kiro Re: Life goes on - 07/13/19 06:49 PM
To the point that it becomes ironical and comical how public opinion on important topics in life have become random choices. This is why people are split 50/50 between liberals and democrats. And this is why 50% of marriages end up in divorce. Itís not much different than tossing a coin.

Iíd say that if we didnít have law and enforcement, weíd probably have 50% of the people who would be criminals.

Without guidance from God, the human race is bound to go astray.

So yes, you will find non religious people who still do good and you can find successful marriages away from religion, but getting married becomes like tossing a coin. Am I going to be in the lucky 50% or in the unlucky group?
Posted By: joejoe1 Re: Life goes on - 07/14/19 12:57 AM
K,

I believe that there are so many variables to couples staying together or getting divorced and not just randomness.

I really wonder if people were taught how to love in grade school and high school would divorce numbers be lower.

I really feel like our society has made M to be this fantasy place of sunshine and rainbows, when in reality it's much more and a bunch of hardwork and compromise.

I think people choose who and what they want with the information they have been presented with. But, when the dust settles what they really was looking for isn't what they chose.
Posted By: IHCLACS Re: Life goes on - 07/14/19 04:52 PM
Originally Posted by kiro
From the point of view of a believer, life has a meaning. We donít believe in the absurdity of life like existentialists. We believe in an Absolute Truth. God is not an idea that we create in our mind. Existentialism and Relativism believe that reality is subjective and that each person creates their own world. Each person is a creator of their own truth.

Because there is a true meaning to life, as believers, we know that our acts matter to us and to others. Life is not an absurd haphazard thing. Marriage and family have a true purpose to individuals and to society.

Non-believers, on the other hand, donít have this moral foundation. They only take into consideration their own happiness and other pragmatic considerations. And since their views are relative and subjective, they also have a changing dynamic nature. Itís a pragmatic equation for them, and they follow their feelings and mind to make their decisions. But feelings change all the time. Also, as we grow older, we go through many physical and hormonal changes. I canít list all the reasons peopleís feelings and priorities change with time, but my point is that without a constant moral foundation such as the one that religion provides, most marriages are bound to fail sooner or later.

Of course, there are exceptions to that rule. And even religious people need to learn good relationship habits to have a happy marriage.


This is exactly what I was trying to emphasize.
Posted By: kiro Re: Life goes on - 07/15/19 01:55 PM
MEETING WITH EXW

Long Post... sorry.... but I thought it was worth recording the details because it shows an evolution in our Sitch... 2 years later...

Yesterday, out of the blue, I called my ex and asked her if she wanted to go out for a coffee.

Chit-Chat about work and studies:
We went out a few hours later. She seemed very relaxed and happy. She talked a lot about her studies and her work.

About her feeling unsafe during MR:
I brought up our MR. I told her that I thought about the fact that she felt insecure during the MR, which is something unpleasant in a relationship. I hadn't felt the same. I always felt secure in our MR (until BD). I explained that I understood what she did and I accepted it. And that I had no bad feelings anymore.

She opened up and explained that she didn't feel safe in the relationship. She felt always judged. She always had to give in, and didn't feel the freedom to be herself. She always had to walk on eggshells out of fear that I would criticize her. She couldn't be vulnerable in front of me and couldn't show her weaknesses due to that. And that made her feel unhappy and made her lose her identity. So she needed to rediscover herself.

I explained that I had no clue that she felt that way during the MR. She was surprised. She thought she mentioned it to me over and over and that I never took her seriously.

I explained that I had read dozens of other people's stories and that it was very common that the LBS had no idea what was going on with the WAS until BD.


Her uncertainties about moving on:
Reading between the lines, she showed that she wasn't sure she did the right thing for the long term.

EXW: "What do think I will go through next since you read so much about midlife crisis and other people's stories, and you're a few steps ahead of me? smile "

ME: "you have become the opposite of who you were before. Most probably, you will slowly revert back to your old personality and would end up somewhere in the center, a more mature but balanced and moderate person."

ME: "At the beginning, I didn't agree at all with you leaving, but now that I am detached, I accept the fact that you needed to go away. You needed to live on your own and learn to become independent and rediscover yourself. You are definitely a stronger and more confident person in that regard."

She agreed and really appreciated that. Then, she brought up how difficult it would have been for her to study and work such long hours if we were still living together.

ME: "Midlife is a difficult age anyway. Did you know that people are at their lowest happiness during these years and that their happiness improves as they grow older"

EXW: "Yes, I know. I even read that many people will later wonder why they were so unhappy before and regret what they did. And I told myself OMG! Do you think that will be my case?"

ME: "Maybe"

About being a good LBS:
ME: "I have never once blamed you or been disrespectful to you since BD and separation."

EXW corrected me and reminded me of a few examples that I said things that were disrespectful to her. Oops! I guess I had an over-inflated view of myself! lol blush grin


About MR and R:
I talked about the advantages of MR and stability and said that I knew she didn't believe in MR anymore. She disagreed and said that she still believed in MR. I talked about the fact that her parents and many people in her family were divorced, and this normalized D for her.

EXW: "But I always cared about our MR and really wanted it to succeed."

ME: "I know and this is why I still embarrass myself blush and have these conversations with you."

ME: "I know you are a focused and goal oriented person. You always want to succeed in what you do and you don't look back."

EXW: "Not always. There are many things that I did and then realized I was wrong. Then I learned from the experienced and moved on."

ME: "I want you to know that there is still an opportunity if you wanted to. (Re-)MR is still a possibility especially that we both agree that MR and stability have many benefits for everyone.

EXW: "But would you be willing to Reconcile after everything we went through. This was traumatic."

ME: "Traumatic for you or for me?"

EXW: "For you mostly. I just left."

ME:"I would be open for R because since day 1, I made sure I stayed in a positive mentality especially toward you. I always tried to understand where you were coming from instead of blaming you."

EXW showed a true interest in the possibility of R.

About love:
ME: "You know? If in the future, you gave me a chance, I think I can gain your heart again. blush grin"

EXW: "I know. Love is easy to revive."

Wrapping up:
After that, there was an awkward silence... none of us knowing what to say after that or what to do.

... a few confused looks... awkward smiles... small talk...

Then... ME: "It's starting to get cold", EXW: "Yes, maybe we should get going"...

Then as we're leaving, I tell her that it was a good conversation. She agrees and gives me this look with a smile that I haven't seen for a very long time... the smile of a woman telling a man that she likes him... almost like the first time I told her I liked her 20 years ago.


Nothing further to say and no intention for the short term to do anything about it. It was a spur of the moment thing.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Life goes on - 07/15/19 02:08 PM
K,

Correct me if Iím wrong but didnít you have the same conversation about 4 months ago on the phone?
Posted By: kiro Re: Life goes on - 07/15/19 03:42 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
K, Correct me if Iím wrong but didnít you have the same conversation about 4 months ago on the phone?

Sort of... but it wasn't the same.

Last time, she was defensive and mostly responsive to what I was saying. And it was over the phone.

This time, the conversation was truly 2-sided. We were much more relaxed and not emotional. It felt genuine. We both seem to understand the other much more than before.

Yesterday, I just felt I was ready to be friends with her and kinda wanted to have another meaningful discussion with her to understand where she is in her progress. These discussions help me get closure and free myself of any bitterness. I think bad feelings are mostly due to misunderstanding the other person and making a lot of assumptions and speculation...

Anyway, I don't have any expectations or any hopes. And I'm not planning to act on any of this any time soon. My post was mostly to record the conversation and let other newbies know how WAS/WWs behavior can evolve with time...
Posted By: kiro Re: Life goes on - 07/26/19 03:28 PM
Court finally approved our D on July 16th. I can officially say I am divorced now smile
Posted By: kiro Re: Life goes on - 09/03/19 04:48 PM
ďDear Algebra,
Please stop asking us to find your x.
Sheís never coming back and donít ask y.Ē

laugh
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Life goes on - 09/03/19 05:38 PM
Hey Kiro, not sure whether to congratulate you or offer condolences on the D, LOL! So I'll ask instead, how are you doing? Did it affect you positively or negatively emotionally? I felt like it would send me spiraling, but instead I walked out of court and just breathed a sigh of relief. It felt like I could finally put it behind me and work on rebuilding my life. I hope it was the same for you!
Posted By: kiro Re: Life goes on - 09/03/19 07:13 PM
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Hey Kiro, not sure whether to congratulate you or offer condolences on the D, LOL! So I'll ask instead, how are you doing? Did it affect you positively or negatively emotionally? I felt like it would send me spiraling, but instead I walked out of court and just breathed a sigh of relief. It felt like I could finally put it behind me and work on rebuilding my life. I hope it was the same for you!


Hi AS, thanks for asking. To be honest, the D itself didn't affect me at all negatively or positively. We had already agreed on everything with a mediator and submitted the paperwork back in the spring. The court's decision was nothing but a formality really. Maybe, the only relief was because there was always a tiny risk that the court could disagree with something in the agreement. I did actually discover 1 surprise; that the spousal support payments will be increased every year to account for inflation. It annoyed me for 1 day and then I just moved on wink


But I have to say that my struggles are not over yet. I am still working on rebuilding my life and rediscovering what I want to do. The toughest part is loneliness and boredom. I met a few other women during the past 6 months, but still haven't found the right person. Mentally, I know that I shouldn't rush into a new relationship before being ready and meeting the right person, but I really like company and don't enjoy being on my own all the time. I don't know how people do it.

I also think that I haven't gone through all the 5 stages of grieving properly. Apparently, I somehow had skipped the Anger stage, but had managed to go through the Denial, Bargaining, Depression and possibly even Acceptance. I am now feeling "soft" anger and contempt toward my ex, and I don't wish her a happy life. I'd like to say that I don't feel that way, but unfortunately I do.

That's really where I am... rebuilding my life slowly piece by piece one day at a time...
Posted By: kiro Re: Life goes on - 12/09/19 02:47 PM
Itís been 3 months since I logged on to this site. I thought Iíd give a few quick updates.

In a few weeks, it will be 2 years since my ExW left and 2.5 years since BD.

D was finalized 3 months ago and all financials settled now.

There is no contact between XW and me except a few short emails from time to time about shared expenses.

Iíve done all my payments to her according to D agreement with no delays. She hasnít completed all hers yet. Sheís delaying and making it difficult. I feel sheís trying to push my buttons.

I have a girlfriend now and weíre getting along really well. Sheís a great person and weíre in love with each other. Sheís also been separated for over 2 years and going through her D now. We still havenít taken our R to the next level until her D is final.

My GF reminds me not to get caught in the small traps that my XW puts for me. Instead of engaging in disputes when she tries to push my buttons, I just let it go and take the high road.

E.g. XW owes me a few hundred $. Sheís been delaying payment although I just paid her hundreds of thousands $ in cash as part of D settlement. When I reminded her by email, she took forever to reply, then wrote back that she will look into it when she has time, and that sheíll deduct $50 she paid for Uber to go help our S18 while I was away on 1-day business trip. I was going to write back and get into an argument but my GF told me that sheís just trying to pull my leg into a fight. So I just wrote back ę†Sure†Ľ. Iíd rather buy my peace of mind even it costs me a few hundred $ more.

Other than that, life is good. Iím busy with work, the kids, the house... I go out with friends once a week, spend time relaxing and doing things I enjoy, I spend time with patents and siblings when I can, and mostly spend a lot of time with my GF smile

Thatís it really for now.
Posted By: kiro Re: Life goes on - 12/09/19 03:03 PM
A note for newcomers:

When I joined this site more than 21 months ago, I could only think of 1 thing: Reconciliation with my W.

I read everything available about MLC, WW, WAW, etc. I was desperate.

And I was convinced that I could wait as long as it takes and do whatever it takes to save my MR. Like most people here, I read that MLC takes 2 to 7 years on average and that most MLCs tend to be on the longer side of that range. I read that the S that leaves seldom returns before 2 years if they ever return.

I thought that I would wait.

But 2 years is awfully long and so many changes happen during that time.

At this point now, I want a new life. I hope my GF will get her D soon and look forward to a new R with her. The worst thing that could happen now is my XW wanting to come back. I donít think Iíd want to be back with her, but wouldnít want to be put in a position to say No.

Things change and we change. Life is good and we can be happy without our WAS/MLCer blush smile
Posted By: ovrrnbw Re: Life goes on - 12/09/19 03:30 PM
Quote
Sheís also been separated for over 2 years and going through her D now.


So you're in love with a married chick? Man...

"Separated" means "married but looking to step out on my marriage" in my experience. I wonder if what she is telling you is true.

And you're still not sure if you want your ex or not.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Life goes on - 12/09/19 04:36 PM
Hey Kiro, glad to hear you are doing well! Sorry to hear your XW is still being a pain-in-the-rear but it happens sometimes. Don't get in too big of a hurry to take your R with GF" to the next level", you've got plenty of time! Try to get to know who this person is before jumping into anything serious. Good luck!
Posted By: kiro Re: Life goes on - 12/09/19 05:57 PM
Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
So you're in love with a married chick? Man...

"Separated" means "married but looking to step out on my marriage" in my experience. I wonder if what she is telling you is true.

And you're still not sure if you want your ex or not.


Trust me. I am more conservative than almost anyone on this site. I haven't and will not engage in anything with this woman until she is totally divorced.

She has been asking her H for D for 2 years, but he's been ignoring her. She hadn't fought for it in court because she felt she didn't need to and because she was afraid of him. When we met and she started having feelings for me, she immediately went to a lawyer and is now working with the lawyer and her H through legal proceedings.

She is the most religious, devout and modest woman I have ever met. Her H has cheated on her many times. And she left him more than 2 years ago. They have been living separate lives since then.


Am I unsure about my ex? No... But this is a complicated topic. I know I am doing the right thing. I don't feel I need to
explain myself any further.
Posted By: kiro Re: Life goes on - 12/09/19 06:01 PM
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Don't get in too big of a hurry to take your R with GF" to the next level", you've got plenty of time! Try to get to know who this person is before jumping into anything serious. Good luck!


thanks AS. We are getting to know each other. That's all we're doing now. I'm in for the long ride. We are not rushing anything, really not. This R may go somewhere or not. I feel lucky that I met this woman. She is great. She also thinks I am great. That's all for now. The rest will take time as you say...
Posted By: kiro Re: Life goes on - 02/04/20 12:25 AM
Wow! It hasn't even been 3 years since BD (almost 2.5 years), just over 2 years since separation and only 6 months since D.

But it feels like such a long time... I remember just after BD when I read that most MLCs lasted 3 to 7 years or more. And that MLCers never came back before 2 years if they ever came back at all...

Back then, I had no idea what 2 or 3 years would feel like. Well, now I can say that it's a VERY VERY long time to put our life on hold waiting for someone else to make up their mind... it's definitely not worth it...

Anyway, we'll see how I feel in a few years when it will be 7 years laugh
Posted By: IHCLACS Re: Life goes on - 02/04/20 12:41 AM
Wow. Hey Kiro. You are a name and a sich I haven't seen or read since I first got here a year ago. Hope everything is good with you and life. Sounds like you are on the up and up.
Posted By: kiro Re: Life goes on - 02/04/20 01:27 AM
Originally Posted by IHCLACS
Wow. Hey Kiro. You are a name and a sich I haven't seen or read since I first got here a year ago. Hope everything is good with you and life. Sounds like you are on the up and up.


Yea.. I don't come here very often anymore b/c I don't have much to offer and don't have anything more to learn about the topics discussed here...

I used to give advice to others, but I can't really do this anymore... Although many siches look alike, people are different and stories can take different paths. It's almost like trying to predict someone's free will. Even God doesn't try to guess what each person will choose to do.
Posted By: IHCLACS Re: Life goes on - 02/04/20 10:51 AM
Originally Posted by kiro
Originally Posted by IHCLACS
Wow. Hey Kiro. You are a name and a sich I haven't seen or read since I first got here a year ago. Hope everything is good with you and life. Sounds like you are on the up and up.


Yea.. I don't come here very often anymore b/c I don't have much to offer and don't have anything more to learn about the topics discussed here...

I used to give advice to others, but I can't really do this anymore... Although many siches look alike, people are different and stories can take different paths. It's almost like trying to predict someone's free will. Even God doesn't try to guess what each person will choose to do.


Those are all really good valid observations and points. It's kind of along same reasons why my post got shorter and shorter practically down to nothing. So many variables when it comes to emotional logical financial circumstantial legal practical mental and compatibility reasons, set this place although full of outstanding advice I notice it becomes more about coping and taking your own direction and decision on what you can control yourself. it's basically a big think tank of ideas and trying what may or may not work with no guarantees or standard of template. As I mentioned to someone in another post there is no one-size-fits-all. It's so funny how we come here and read each other stitches, and find the same patterns in most of them though, And how we can also almost exactly relate to them and be like WTH? I try to focus more on the success stories on people that were successful at saving themselves and their own lives independently, since that's all we can control
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Life goes on - 02/04/20 01:03 PM
Originally Posted by kiro
Back then, I had no idea what 2 or 3 years would feel like. Well, now I can say that it's a VERY VERY long time to put our life on hold waiting for someone else to make up their mind... it's definitely not worth it...

Anyway, we'll see how I feel in a few years when it will be 7 years laugh


Hey Kiro! For me, the more time that passes the more it all seems like a distant memory. At the time it seemed like it dragged on and on like the worst kind of limbo, but after D my "new normal" just became my "normal" and it all kind of faded away. Not sure if it's the same for everyone! Glad to hear you are doing well smile
Posted By: DejaVu6 Re: Life goes on - 02/04/20 02:02 PM
Glad to hear you are doing well. Sounds like you and gf have things pretty figured out. I hope it works out for you. (((HUGS)))
Posted By: kiro Re: Life goes on - 02/12/20 01:38 AM
Journaling...

I was thinking what would I have done if I was the one who wanted to leave my W when I was married? How would I have handled it?

This is a big IF of course... but with some imagination, I could imagine what it would have been like.

First, I wouldn't have left except in 1 of 3 scenarios:

1. I was truly miserable and the need to leave was my only option to save my sanity and find happiness again.

2. I wasn't necessarily miserable but was bored. Then I started thinking about the limitless possibilities in life. Why not take a chance and try something new?

3. I fell into some sort of EA or PA


How I would behave would probably depend which scenario I'm in. However, it's difficult to imagine being in the 1st scenario after such a long marriage. If I was truly miserable, personally, I wouldn't have lasted 17 years.

This leaves scenarios 2 & 3. In both cases, I would know deep inside that I was the one who wanted to leave. My W didn't do anything to trigger it. I'm the one who wanted something different.

SCENARIO 2

In scenario 2, this couldn't have happened over night. This would have needed a long time feeling empty and bored before deciding to do something about it.

Probably, I would first try to talk to W about how I was feeling. But she doesn't get it. She keeps talking about the same things she wanted from me. She gets defensive and thinks I'm criticizing her instead of understanding me and listening to me.

After failing to talk to her, I would start experimenting new things: new activities, new hobbies, new friends, new food, new places, etc. And at the same time, I would avoid doing more of the same old things, so spending less time with W, kids, family, etc.

I would be hoping that W would understand and support me. But she probably would be upset I wasn't spending time with her and not helping her at home. So she would lash out and spoil my plans...

I would be moody. I would think a lot, be evasive, distant, pensive, etc. I may become more irritable. I would be searching for answers. I'd read a lot on the topic, I'd ask people, I'd listen to podcasts, etc.

And then, at some point, I wouldn't be able to avoid the thought of leaving and trying something new. At first, I'd brush it away, but the thought would keep coming back.

Then, one day, the inevitable happens. W would push me over the edge and I would lose my mind and explode. I would find myself suddenly dropping the EB and say that I had had enough and wanted a separation.

After saying it, I would be confused but decide to hold my grounds since I'd said it already. To save face, I would look for arguments to justify my decision. Since anyway, she hadn't noticed what I had been going through, there was no point trying to explain how I felt. She didn't get it. She didn't help me. She failed to make me happy. So it must all be her fault.

The more she would push me, beg me, pursue me, the more I'd move away and the harder I would try to find new arguments to blame her.

I would start focusing on all the negativity in our R to justify my decision. I would ignore anything positive. I would dig deep in my memory to find all the times she did something wrong or she hurt me. I would start listing all these negatives.

When I'm alone, I'd have a guilty conscience about what I did. My mind would keep going back and forth... What if I was wrong? Should I keep going? Should I go back? I'd start giving mixed signals.

I would be in a lot of pain and confusion. This pain and the confusion would be added to my already existing feeling of unhappiness and emptiness.

I'd want to stop these feelings at any cost. So I decide to distance myself more and more, to detach from W, to spend time away from home & family... I'd start focusing on new possibilities. I'd make stories in my mind, fantasies about how it would be like in the future...

I'd convince myself that I can block it all out. I can stop thinking about it. I can move on. This phase of my life is over. All I need to do is close this book and never open it again.

And I'd try to stay busy to avoid the guilt to creep back into my mind... And what better way than to work on my new future. I'd start planning for my future by putting money aside, looking for a new place, new friends, etc.
Posted By: kiro Re: Life goes on - 02/12/20 01:56 AM
Continued...

And before I know it, I already have 1 foot out the door.

Deep inside, I know what I did. I know I was unfair and that I made up stories. I know that my MR wasn't that bad. I know W isn't bad.

But I also know that I cannot take back everything I said. In other words, I already ruined it. There is no way she would forgive me.

I have doubts. I am not sure if I'd truly be happier when I leave, but after everything that I'd said and done, it would be dumb not to try. W seems desperate anyway. If I change my mind down the road, she'd take me back in a beat.


I'm excited about my new life and this gives me a new energy. Friends and colleagues see the change in me. They compliment me and encourage me. This gives me confidence that I'm doing the right thing. Maybe, some other women even flirt with me. It feels good and exciting...

It's an adrenaline rush... I can't stop it...

Somehow, I have become selfish. I'm only thinking about myself, but I can't help it. And so what? I've given so much to others in the past. I've sacrificed myself so much. It's ok to live my life.

MR is over anyway. Thinking about it only causes pain to both of us. We might as well get a D and end it before it gets worse. I need to get her off my back...

It's a rollercoaster. Once I got on it, it's difficult to come off.

W keeps thinking so rationally. She keeps bringing up old memories from MR and talking about the kids. What's wrong with her? How has she become so dependent? Doesn't she have any imagination? Why can't she move on?

It's actually for her own good that I need to stay away and avoid any contact with her... But I'll help her if she needs because I am still a good person.
Posted By: kiro Re: Life goes on - 02/12/20 02:04 AM
That's what I would probably do if I was the WAS smile
Posted By: wooba Re: Life goes on - 02/12/20 02:57 PM
Wow Kiro. That was difficult for me to read. Especially the last part - ďIíll help her if she needs me because Iím still a good person.Ē

My H said to me when we were talking about D, ďyou will probably get xx amount for alimony, but if you still need help, I of course will help you.Ē Like he was a godsend whoís so fcking admirable for extending a helping hand to me in a hypothetical D situation....

All I can say itís totally delusional.

I appreciate you sharing your imagination with us. What purpose did this little exercise serve for you?
Posted By: wayfarer Re: Life goes on - 02/12/20 03:20 PM
Kiro, my H ended up in EA that became a PA but this all started with scenario 2. I could feel it starting in Spring of 19, but he'd never talk about it. No matter what I asked or how I asked it he wouldn't talk to me about it and blamed it on work, stress, literally anything but him or our R. Every single thing you wrote is exactly how all of this has been going down, except I will not bring up old memories with him. He can't see our MR as it really was any way. There's no point in trying to correct him. But this is so accurate and it's absolutely soul crushing.
Posted By: kiro Re: Life goes on - 02/12/20 04:34 PM
Originally Posted by wooba
Wow Kiro. That was difficult for me to read. Especially the last part - ďIíll help her if she needs me because Iím still a good person.Ē

I'm so sorry Wooba. I felt bad after putting a smiley on my last message b/c I know this is a painful topic for everyone here including myself.

Originally Posted by wooba
My H said to me when we were talking about D, ďyou will probably get xx amount for alimony, but if you still need help, I of course will help you.Ē Like he was a godsend whoís so fcking admirable for extending a helping hand to me in a hypothetical D situation....

All I can say itís totally delusional.

I'm sorry to hear that... I truly feel your pain. It's been almost 3 years for me and it hasn't been easy.

Originally Posted by wooba
I appreciate you sharing your imagination with us. What purpose did this little exercise serve for you?

This is the most complex human behavior topic I have ever witnessed. Although I have moved on with my life, sometimes I can't stop my mind from thinking about it again.

I think what is missing in my sitch and in many others I guess is closure. I don't know if this exercise served anything in particular. Usually, whenever I think about what happened, I analyze how each of us behaved before and after BD. It's my way for trying to understand.

Yesterday, for the 1st time, I asked myself a different question: How would I have behaved if I was the one who wanted to leave? Writing my thoughts helps me get it out, so my mind doesn't go crazy in endless loops thinking about it.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Life goes on - 02/12/20 04:59 PM
K,

I really enjoy your posts and wish you posted more. Yesterday I was leaving my sonís basketball game and I left alone while my son and daughter wants to exís. Getting into the car I started to get angry because I couldnít talk to my son about the game and I went home alone. Iím trying to empathize will her decision but find it difficult. I have listened to some podcasts on Midlife Transitioning and realized this is more then just a snap decision on her part. There are hormones and brain chemicals in play. I guess the disappointment comes in the fact that I picked a weak person who was not willing to exhaust all options before breaking up my family.

Keep posting.
Posted By: kiro Re: Life goes on - 02/12/20 05:04 PM
Originally Posted by wayfarer
Kiro, my H ended up in EA that became a PA but this all started with scenario 2. I could feel it starting in Spring of 19, but he'd never talk about it. No matter what I asked or how I asked it he wouldn't talk to me about it and blamed it on work, stress, literally anything but him or our R. Every single thing you wrote is exactly how all of this has been going down, except I will not bring up old memories with him. He can't see our MR as it really was any way. There's no point in trying to correct him. But this is so accurate and it's absolutely soul crushing.

Wayfare, I'm so sorry... I didn't mean to add more pain to you or anyone else. And by no mean am I trying to justify what a WAS does. I was just trying to put myself in the WAS shoes to understand how they think and why they act the way they do.

Humans are just complicated creatures. And relationships/marriages are even more complicated because they involve 2 of these complicated creatures.

But I still think the LBS has take some responsibility for how they feel. I am not saying that the LBS did anything wrong. They definitely shouldn't blame themself for what happened, but the LBS needs to take responsibility for their own life, their behavior, and their feelings... Often, as it was in my case, I allowed myself to become too dependent on my W and had lost a big part of my individuality. I should have realized that MR comes with a risk. It's common knowledge that 50% of MRs end in D. I felt that we were safe, that these statistics didn't apply to us. I took what we had for granted.

All it takes for a MR to fail is for 1 person to decide that they want something different. I thought that I owned my W's life as much as I own mine. But I was wrong. I only own my life. I can only control me.


But let me be clear.. Regardless of I wrote in my imaginary scenarios above, the WAS is the main culprit here not the LBS. The WAS allowed themself to do something wrong and then they went too far and couldn't control it anymore. Then the damage is done... Once it's done, all the stories show that it cannot go back as it was. It's just the way that humans are built unfortunately.
Posted By: kiro Re: Life goes on - 02/12/20 05:30 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
I guess the disappointment comes in the fact that I picked a weak person who was not willing to exhaust all options before breaking up my family.

Thanks LH for your reply...

I think you are right. this is what it boils down to. Very well said.
Posted By: neffer Re: Life goes on - 02/12/20 05:35 PM
Selfishness. Thatīs one of the main ingredients into MLC. From there you start with lacking empathy and resentment.
Itīs a whole different view of yourself from yourself...loosing values and hearing only the things you want to hear. If you have a group of people sharing these biased values well...your next steps are doomed.

Self awareness. Family values. Respect.

I lost some of those values some time ago. Itīs not a peaceful journey. And you hurt people you love.

Selfishness. It starts there.

Time heals. Life goes on. We need to know, respect and love ourselves so as to be able to love others.
Posted By: wayfarer Re: Life goes on - 02/12/20 06:26 PM
Originally Posted by kiro
Wayfarer, I'm so sorry... I didn't mean to add more pain to you or anyone else. And by no mean am I trying to justify what a WAS does. I was just trying to put myself in the WAS shoes to understand how they think and why they act the way they do.


No need to apologize. There was no added pain. The soul crushing part is my H is sleeping w/ another woman while under my roof, and is in a rush to move out and start his new life. Just seeing it all written out from the beginning is a little jarring. And I'm not to the end of my story yet, so still a little hopeful I'm a lucky one that has a different ending.


Originally Posted by kiro
But I still think the LBS has take some responsibility for how they feel. I am not saying that the LBS did anything wrong. They definitely shouldn't blame themself for what happened, but the LBS needs to take responsibility for their own life, their behavior, and their feelings... Often, as it was in my case, I allowed myself to become too dependent on my W and had lost a big part of my individuality. I should have realized that MR comes with a risk. It's common knowledge that 50% of MRs end in D. I felt that we were safe, that these statistics didn't apply to us. I took what we had for granted.

All it takes for a MR to fail is for 1 person to decide that they want something different. .


We both lost our individuality. And I saw it happening, but I was severely depressed and dealing with grief and I couldn't stop it. And he isn't emotionally in tune enough to know the difference between losing yourself in a relationship and just losing yourself. And he did what he had always done before me, fill the holes with a woman. I never thought I owned him, but I thought I was special. I thought I was enough. And I couldn't have been more wrong. He can't not talk to me so I know I was special, but I was never going to be enough. Because he isn't even enough for himself.

Originally Posted by kiro
But let me be clear.. Regardless of I wrote in my imaginary scenarios above, the WAS is the main culprit here not the LBS. The WAS allowed themself to do something wrong and then they went too far and couldn't control it anymore. Then the damage is done... Once it's done, all the stories show that it cannot go back as it was. It's just the way that humans are built unfortunately.


As a person still standing, if there is a reconciliation ever, I'd never want it to go back to the way it was. I don't ever want to lose myself like that again. And I can't be in a relationship where my partner is falling apart but won't talk to me about it, even if my mental health seemed like the bigger issue at the time. I think it's why the ones who make it to the other side call it MR 2.0, and say it's deeper and stronger. It's impossible to keep moving forward and ignore the damage. You have to do a total tear down and start over with better and stronger material or you'll just be destroyed again. I think that's true of the individuals too.
Posted By: kiro Re: Life goes on - 02/12/20 06:59 PM
Originally Posted by wayfarer
And he did what he had always done before me, fill the holes with a woman. I never thought I owned him, but I thought I was special. I thought I was enough. And I couldn't have been more wrong. He can't not talk to me so I know I was special, but I was never going to be enough. Because he isn't even enough for himself.

You are special, but you don't need him for that. You are special whether he sees it or not.

Originally Posted by wayfarer
As a person still standing, if there is a reconciliation ever, I'd never want it to go back to the way it was. I don't ever want to lose myself like that again. And I can't be in a relationship where my partner is falling apart but won't talk to me about it, even if my mental health seemed like the bigger issue at the time. I think it's why the ones who make it to the other side call it MR 2.0, and say it's deeper and stronger. It's impossible to keep moving forward and ignore the damage. You have to do a total tear down and start over with better and stronger material or you'll just be destroyed again. I think that's true of the individuals too.

Yes I believe this is very true. But standing is difficult and long. It's been 3 years for me. We even have final D now. Although my ExW is the one who asked for D, she always left the door slightly open. She always said things like:

"I am not ready for reconciliation yet"
"I need to separate for some time, but maybe things will change in the future..."
Etc.

A big part of her message was that she needed time to work on herself and rebuild herself and that a MR2.0 is a possibility in the future if I was still available when she will be ready. Obviously, the message wasn't always that straightforward and direct. There were a lot of mixed signals, contradicting behaviors, confusion and so on...

But because it's such a long time, my life, my feelings and my priorities have changed. Since the damage is done anyway and that any possible R will not be like it used to be, I don't know if I'd be interested anymore. I am not sure what's in it for me?

Her decision has had a huge impact on the way my kids and I live our lives. Many of my friendships and social life have changed. My relationship with my kids has changed (to the better). My kids childhood and adolescence has been impacted considerably. And almost everything else was impacted too: finances, home, work, vacations, hobbies, etc.

So it wouldn't be about saving my family, my marriage, my kids or even my life. We are way passed this phase now...

So even if she were to come back and want MR2.0, why would I embark on such a complicated adventure?

Anyway, this is all hypothetical for me. I am actually seeing someone else now although it's still not a relationship yet. But at some point, I need to decide whether I want to commit to this other person or not.
Posted By: kiro Re: Life goes on - 02/12/20 07:23 PM
Originally Posted by neffer
Selfishness. Thatīs one of the main ingredients into MLC. From there you start with lacking empathy and resentment.
Itīs a whole different view of yourself from yourself...loosing values and hearing only the things you want to hear. If you have a group of people sharing these biased values well...your next steps are doomed.

Self awareness. Family values. Respect.

I lost some of those values some time ago. Itīs not a peaceful journey. And you hurt people you love.

Selfishness. It starts there.

Time heals. Life goes on. We need to know, respect and love ourselves so as to be able to love others.

Thanks Neffer

I totally agree. All these traits you describe were (are) very obvious in my ExW's behavior: Selfishness, losing values, lack of empathy, hurting others, etc.

I'm also happy you mentioned being around the wrong group of people. This factor is often ignored although it plays a big part. I'd add to it the influence of media, social media, books...

And yes time heals and life goes on, but our actions will live on forever. If we hurt someone, we should seek forgiveness and do our best to fix what we did (if we can). Time is not enough
Posted By: kiro Re: Life goes on - 02/12/20 10:52 PM
Sometimes I feel that the people on this DB site are my family. I can read any post and I can almost instantly connect and relate to that person. I donít meet many people in the real world who can understand me as well as everyone here.

Thank you all for sharing your stories and for supporting each other. ❤️
Posted By: wooba Re: Life goes on - 02/13/20 01:28 AM
Originally Posted by kiro
This is the most complex human behavior topic I have ever witnessed. Although I have moved on with my life, sometimes I can't stop my mind from thinking about it again.

I think what is missing in my sitch and in many others I guess is closure. I don't know if this exercise served anything in particular.

I agree. It still amazes me to think that everything pretty much happens internally in our heads (for both the WAS and the LBS). Sometimes outside forces do play a role, but mostly itís in your brain...a split second thought, a half-way-there feeling, bundled with chemical changes or just pure fate, to produce some kind of action that will change everything.

I hope you find the closure youíre looking for. What if you can never find closure? Do you think itís required to move on 100%? I donít think thereís an answer for everything. And maybe sometimes one has to accept the absence of closure to find closure. I donít even know if that makes sense, ha!

Originally Posted by kiro
I should have realized that MR comes with a risk. It's common knowledge that 50% of MRs end in D. I felt that we were safe, that these statistics didn't apply to us. I took what we had for granted.

This is how I felt too immediately after BD. I took things for granted. I thought we were safe. Although I also wasnít happy but I didnít sense the danger. M or any kind of relationship really takes hard work. It is easy to fall into this complacency and just think that you can cruise through life.

Originally Posted by kiro
So even if she were to come back and want MR2.0, why would I embark on such a complicated adventure?

I totally understand how you feel. I think about this too. Is it easier or harder to be with someone whom youíve already been through so much with together? Should we choose base on the difficulty? Iíve told my H this too- I love you, but it is so hard to love you. The easy way for me right now would definitely be to end my M. Maybe there is no right or wrong. Whatever happens, most of the time you would have already been put in a position towards a choice before you have to actively pick A or B. Maybe like you, youíre already seeing someone now....when the time comes where your XW wants to recon, you wouldnít even need to consider it because youíre already so invested in this other person.

LH & neffer- I def also agree with the selfishness and the weakness of the WAS. And those are hard to change. I canít imagine for those who have made it to piecing, how those two traits of the WAS affect the piecing process.
Posted By: kiro Re: Life goes on - 02/13/20 02:25 AM
Originally Posted by wooba
What if you can never find closure? Do you think itís required to move on 100%? I donít think thereís an answer for everything. And maybe sometimes one has to accept the absence of closure to find closure. I donít even know if that makes sense, ha!

It makes a lot of sense. Iíve actually accepted already that I wonít have answers. I have mostly moved on but there are still many aspects of my life that are in limbo still. Iím still sorta in a transition phase. So many things in my life have changed over the past 2 years. Iím still readjusting...

Originally Posted by wooba
I totally understand how you feel. I think about this too. Is it easier or harder to be with someone whom youíve already been through so much with together? Should we choose base on the difficulty?

My sitch is in a different phase than yours. We started D process 18 months ago and D was final about 6 months ago. Until D, I was ready to wait and put the work required. But itís different now. I met this very nice person that I like and she seems to like me as much. Do I put my life on hold and wait indefinitely for a woman who is not my wife anymore and shows no sign of remorse or any sign of wanting R? It wouldnít make any sense in my sitch.

Originally Posted by wooba
LH & neffer- I def also agree with the selfishness and the weakness of the WAS. And those are hard to change. I canít imagine for those who have made it to piecing, how those two traits of the WAS affect the piecing process.

My ExW has always shown signs of selfishness even before we had any major problems, although the selfishness before BD was mild. I lived and dealt with it throughout our MR
Posted By: neffer Re: Life goes on - 02/13/20 02:54 AM
Wooba, I was the WWS in my sitch...what helped me getting back on course? This site and the people here. They saved my life.
Posted By: wooba Re: Life goes on - 02/13/20 11:08 AM
Originally Posted by neffer
Wooba, I was the WWS in my sitch...what helped me getting back on course? This site and the people here. They saved my life.

Ah...Iíve read your thank you thread (couldnít find anything older) awhile ago and I went back and reread it again just now. You are a lucky one, something led you here and you got to turn your life around. Some days I dread my H would stumble upon this place and read my posts. But sometimes I actually hope he would find his way here himself for his own sake.
Posted By: kiro Re: Life goes on - 02/13/20 01:52 PM
Wooba, I love how you just wished your H to find his way for his own sake.

For me, itís a very difficult thing to do: wishing my exW good for her own sake, after what she has done to my family. The most difficult part to overcome is injustice. Even if I forget or forgive what she did to the family, to the kids and me, itís not easy to get passed the unfair things she said: Drawing a very negative and gloomy picture of our MR, disregarding and denying all the good times we had and the good & loving things I did for her, blaming me for the MR breakdown and blaming me for her irresponsible actions, insulting my parents and siblings and blaming them for all kinds of lies although they loved her as a part of their family and treated her really well, saying all kinds of lies during mediation in order to get a few extra $$ from me, and so on...

Itís not bitterness. I never think about these things and I never felt really affected by these words because I know most of them are lies. I donít wish anything horrible to happen to her, but I canít wish her good either. Until she apologizes or at least admits the unjust things she said, I just stay away from wishing her anything, good or bad. I donít know if this makes any sense... Just speaking my mind...
Posted By: neffer Re: Life goes on - 02/13/20 02:00 PM
Itīs all I wrote. I started piecing before getting here. And I found wisdom, light, respect, values and love for the other here. I stayed. So now Iīm a proud member of this community. Of course not for what I did, but for the people I found.
I will forever be grateful for this.

DB and this forum is a way to serve others through love.
Posted By: neffer Re: Life goes on - 02/13/20 02:09 PM
It takes time Kiro. You need to get rid of negative feelings. Itīs unnecessary to keep them inside. Free yourself from that. You know you did the fight.

Respect!
Posted By: kiro Re: Life goes on - 02/13/20 08:56 PM
Originally Posted by neffer
It takes time Kiro. You need to get rid of negative feelings. Itīs unnecessary to keep them inside. Free yourself from that. You know you did the fight.

Respect!

Thanks Neffer. I actually wrote a long reply this morning justifying why I was feeling this way. Then I deleted it b/c I realized that you were right.
Posted By: kiro Re: Life goes on - 12/15/20 03:17 AM
It has been 10 months since I logged in to this forum. Here is a quick update of my story:

It has been now 3 years and a half since ExW's BD. Our D was final a year and a half ago.

I met an amazing woman summer 2019 and we got married this summer.

My ExW remarried too. I think it's the same guy she had an affair with, but I am not 100% sure and don't really care. I had tried to be in good terms with her for about 2 years after BD, but at some point I got tired and decided to avoid any contact with her. For the past year and a half, we only text if there is something important to share about the kids.

At times, I still wonder about what could have been if my 1st marriage had continued. To this day, I cannot truly understand why my ExW acted the way she did. But I accept the fact that people are different and that we all have free choice.

Divorce is definitely one of the most difficult experiences one can go through. Sometimes, I feel that I aged more than 10 years in the past 3.5 years. But I have also learned so much in the process. Overall, I think I have become a better person.

My message to the people who are still going through the difficult phase is that life does go on at some point. Life becomes normal again. You can be happy again and you can find love again whether it's with the same person or a different person.

Things will change and your life won't be the same anymore. But you don't necessarily need to fight the change because it can bring good things in your life.

I don't know how I will feel about my ExW 5 years from now, but for now I decided to keep her out of my life. I don't know whether I forgave her or not. I think it depends on the days. But more and more she becomes part of the past and I don't really think about her or about what happenned.


What is also really important is to regain your individuality and to know that the only thing that you truly controls is yourself. You can't control your spouse or anyone else. Know yourself and know your principles. Be a good loving person but don't be a pushover.

I once read something like that: That you should be the captain of your own life. If someone wants to come on board, you greet them, you treat them well, and you take care of them. But if they don't want to, you let them go. This is very true.

If your spouse doesn't appreciate who you are, they are not worth it.

And you may end up finding a much better person who truly loves you for who you are like I have. I have found a woman who truly loves me and appreciates who I am. An I love her back, respect her and appreciate her. In the 17 years of my 1st marriage, I had never felt truly loved or appreciated. But I didn't really know any better and had got used to it.
Posted By: OnlyBent Re: Life goes on - 12/15/20 10:09 AM
Thanks for popping back and sharing Kiro, it brought tears to my eyes. Not because it isn't a happy ending for you, its amazing to hear how well you are doing. But it does hit home that, in my situation at least, this is the likely reality for me too. That a person we chose to spend our lives with and have children with, could be reduced to a memory, like Gotye says, just someone that I used to know.

Humans are a strange bunch.
Posted By: kiro Re: Life goes on - 12/15/20 12:56 PM
Originally Posted by OnlyBent
That a person we chose to spend our lives with and have children with, could be reduced to a memory, like Gotye says, just someone that I used to know.

Humans are a strange bunch.


Oh I totally agree. This may be the most important thing I learned from this experience: that humans are weird and strange.

It almost becomes philosophical. Who are we? And what do others represent for us? We are subjective beings. We make our own reality in our minds. We only know someone through our own subjectivity and can never truly know the other person.

Itís also very difficult to accept that the person we chose to spend our life with rejects us and doesnít want to be with us. But we need to rebuild our confidence and accept to let them go. Donít define yourself by what someone else decides to do with their life.
Posted By: kiro Re: Life goes on - 12/15/20 01:23 PM
If we do a survey about all the WASs, WWs and MLCERs, Iím pretty confident weíll find that they all had common personality traits way before BD.

If I were to take a guess, Iíd say these traits would include:

- A certain level of selfishness
- Inability to take responsibility for their mistakes
- Blaming others for their shortcomings
- Never apologizing
- Poor communicator
- Hiding their emotions
- A certain level of immaturity
- Dependent
- Low self esteem (that could manifest in different ways...)
- A certain level of narcissistic behaviour
Posted By: wooba Re: Life goes on - 12/15/20 01:34 PM
Originally Posted by kiro

- A certain level of selfishness
- Inability to take responsibility for their mistakes
- Blaming others for their shortcomings
- Never apologizing
- Poor communicator
- Hiding their emotions
- A certain level of immaturity
- Dependent
- Low self esteem (that could manifest in different ways...)
- A certain level of narcissistic behaviour



Bingo! But I wonder whether these traits were obvious to the LBSes before marriage. For me, they weren't.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Life goes on - 12/15/20 01:50 PM
Originally Posted by kiro
If we do a survey about all the WASs, WWs and MLCERs, Iím pretty confident weíll find that they all had common personality traits way before BD.

If I were to take a guess, Iíd say these traits would include:

- A certain level of selfishness
- Inability to take responsibility for their mistakes
- Blaming others for their shortcomings
- Never apologizing
- Poor communicator
- Hiding their emotions
- A certain level of immaturity
- Dependent
- Low self esteem (that could manifest in different ways...)
- A certain level of narcissistic behaviour



I'd be careful with this. There are a lot of layers, complexities and dynamics that go into these situations. It is easy to look back and try to define all of this and fit people into neat boxes. One of the things I have learned is that people do not fit into nice boxes. We sometimes want them to because it makes us feel safer. It makes us feel secure. It makes us feel in control. "If only I had noticed X, Y, and Z before we got married!" The problem is that for many of us, our WWs were completely different people from our Ws! I can vouch for this in my own sitch. My W is nothing like she was when she was a WW. Before and after! While WW she displayed many of the characteristics of your list. Before and since, none of that.

However, I do think your point overall is a good one. One of the problems we see in our society (societies?) today is a rush to get married. People meet. They have that "in love", limerence feeling. "I can't imagine spending another second of my life without this person!" Within months, sometimes mere weeks, they are engaged. And they rush down the aisle to a lifelong commitment, only to wake up at some point after the wedding realizing that the person they just committed their life to is someone that they don't and didn't know very well at all!! This is why I am advocate of not getting engaged for at least a year, and not getting married for at least two years. That's right, 2 years of dating, minimal! But I realize I am old-fashioned and in the minority.

Marriage is hard enough without rushing into it. And often people that rush into it are the same ones to rush out of it.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Life goes on - 12/15/20 02:14 PM
Originally Posted by kiro
It has been now 3 years and a half since ExW's BD. Our D was final a year and a half ago.

I met an amazing woman summer 2019 and we got married this summer.

My ExW remarried too. I think it's the same guy she had an affair with, but I am not 100% sure and don't really care. I had tried to be in good terms with her for about 2 years after BD, but at some point I got tired and decided to avoid any contact with her. For the past year and a half, we only text if there is something important to share about the kids.


Congratulations! Wow both of you remarried a year and a half after D. They may be a record.

Originally Posted by kiro
I don't know how I will feel about my ExW 5 years from now, but for now I decided to keep her out of my life. I don't know whether I forgave her or not. I think it depends on the days. But more and more she becomes part of the past and I don't really think about her or about what happened.

That's where I am at right now. Plain and simple I can't have people in my life who don't care about my feelings. I only want people in my life who appreciate what I have to offer. Will this change someday? Maybe maybe not.

Kiro I always enjoyed your perspective on things and I wish you the best of luck.
Posted By: MrBrside Re: Life goes on - 12/15/20 02:32 PM
Originally Posted by kiro
If we do a survey about all the WASs, WWs and MLCERs, Iím pretty confident weíll find that they all had common personality traits way before BD.

If I were to take a guess, Iíd say these traits would include:

- A certain level of selfishness
- Inability to take responsibility for their mistakes
- Blaming others for their shortcomings
- Never apologizing
- Poor communicator
- Hiding their emotions
- A certain level of immaturity
- Dependent
- Low self esteem (that could manifest in different ways...)
- A certain level of narcissistic behaviour



Bingo for me as well.. My WW ticks 10 out of the above 10...

I sympathise with her OM lol.. and my children even more !

Glad you came out stronger Kiro.
Posted By: neffer Re: Life goes on - 12/15/20 03:37 PM
Embrace change Kiro!
Posted By: kiro Re: Life goes on - 12/15/20 04:47 PM
Originally Posted by Steve85
I'd be careful with this. There are a lot of layers, complexities and dynamics that go into these situations. It is easy to look back and try to define all of this and fit people into neat boxes. One of the things I have learned is that people do not fit into nice boxes. We sometimes want them to because it makes us feel safer. It makes us feel secure. It makes us feel in control. "If only I had noticed X, Y, and Z before we got married!" The problem is that for many of us, our WWs were completely different people from our Ws! I can vouch for this in my own sitch. My W is nothing like she was when she was a WW. Before and after! While WW she displayed many of the characteristics of your list. Before and since, none of that.

Steve, I wrote that message humorously and lightly more than anything. I didn't intend this to be really an accurate picture smile

I agree that in reality humans are more complicated than this simplistic view wink
Posted By: Traveler Re: Life goes on - 12/15/20 04:55 PM
Congratz on the good update!

These traits maybe apply more to WWs? wink

Some WASs here communicated their issues and tried to get their ex's into counseling before giving up. Some were leaving abusive relationships, which I highly encourage, or cheaters.
Posted By: kiro Re: Life goes on - 12/15/20 05:06 PM
Originally Posted by CWarrior
These traits maybe apply more to WWs?

Some WASs here communicated their issues and tried to get their ex's into counseling before giving up. Some were leaving abusive relationships, which I highly encourage, or cheaters.

As I said, I was being funny more than anything smile

To be honest, I am not even sure these traits even apply to my ExW. In reality, we had a good marriage for at least 16 of the 17 years we were together. And she was mostly a good wife and good person.

The reason I wrote that message with that list is like Steve said "to feel in control" and to pretend to understand something that is beyond my brain. LOL laugh
Posted By: harvey Re: Life goes on - 12/15/20 06:21 PM
I like your update. I'm a little worried about how quickly both you and your XW remarried.

My XW probably only had a few of those things, but that was enough to end our marriage. Everybody is flawed though. It's hard to absolutely identify which traits will cause a spouse to walk. I'm sure we all have traits that we'll avoid in future relationships. Narcissism is at the top of my list.
Posted By: kiro Re: Life goes on - 12/15/20 07:36 PM
Originally Posted by harvey
I'm a little worried about how quickly both you and your XW remarried.

Maybe. Only time will tell.

I cannot talk about my XW and her new H. I had read a lot about marrital affairs that turn into marriage usually don't succeed, but it's not my place to judge her. I am not in communication with her and don't know anything about her new life. I try to stay out of it and I try not to have an opinion about it. I neither wish her happiness nor misery. I am indifferent.

The only thing that's important to me is the wellbeing of my kids. I don't want them to stay with her if it ever turns into a harmful environment. For the time being, my kids seem ok when they spend time with her.

I can only talk for myself. I know my new W and I have the best intentions to live happily together in our new M. But for sure, it's not the same thing as a 1st marriage. It's definitely more complicated because we both have kids and because we come with our own package.

On the other hand, we also have more wisdom from our 1st experience. As I said, we will do our best and time will tell.

I kinda understand why the statistics show that 2nd marriages have a higher D rate. Although I am totally committed to my new W, we don't have any intentions to have children together. If things don't work out for some reason in the future, we don't have as much to lose.

This being said, I do hope that it will work out, that we'll stay together and that we'll continue being happy.
Posted By: BL42 Re: Life goes on - 12/16/20 11:55 AM
kiro,

Thanks for returning to share. I'm still relatively new here and find it insightful and reassuring to hear updates from several years post-BD. Glad to hear you're doing so well.
Posted By: kiro Re: Life goes on - 04/11/21 02:36 AM
I wanted to share another thought today

When I first started reading this forum more than 3.5 years ago, I had only 1 purpose: to fix my MR. And the way to achieve that purpose (I thought) was to find answers. And so I was only interested in reading success stories about people who were able to save their MR.

But I would often wonder about what happens to the majority of the people on this forum after they stopped writing. I'd wonder how many were able to save their MR? Did they find the answers they were looking for? Are they happy years later?

So I thought I'd answer these questions from my own story.

I was NOT able to save my MR.

And I didn't find the answers I was looking for. To this day, I can't really explain what happened. I can come up with plenty of theories about what happened, but they're just theories... What truly happened and why my exW behaved the way she did remain a mystery for me.

But I survived and so did my kids. The breakup and divorce left many scars for sure, but we were able to move on with our lives.

Some things in my life are still the same, but many things have changed. My perspective about certain things has changed. I matured and learned a lot in the process.

I got married again and I am happy in my new life and with my new wife. But it's a different kind of happiness.
Posted By: OnlyBent Re: Life goes on - 04/11/21 11:39 AM
Thanks for the update Kirk.

Can you elaborate on a different kind of happiness and what that means?
Posted By: LH19 Re: Life goes on - 04/11/21 01:51 PM
Originally Posted by OnlyBent
Thanks for the update Kirk.

Can you elaborate on a different kind of happiness and what that means?

So I wonít speak for Kiro but I can relate to what he is saying. I was happy being married and being part of an intact family. Now most of my happiness comes from the peace in my life being a single dating dad. I have like zero stress in my life.
Posted By: kiro Re: Life goes on - 04/11/21 02:45 PM
Originally Posted by kiro
And I didn't find the answers I was looking for. To this day, I can't really explain what happened. I can come up with plenty of theories about what happened, but they're just theories... What truly happened and why my exW behaved the way she did remain a mystery for me.

The real point of my previous post was that we donít always find all the answers weíre looking for. Sometimes one needs to accept that reality and learn to move on.

2 years ago, a friend told me his own story to make that point. His father left him and his mother when he was a young kid and never came back. When he became a young man, he went through a phase of his life trying to find answers about his dad, but at some point, he learned that it was pointless and that for his own safe he needed to move on and accept that it was ok not to get the answers.
Posted By: kiro Re: Life goes on - 04/11/21 03:20 PM
Originally Posted by OnlyBent
Thanks for the update Kirk.

Can you elaborate on a different kind of happiness and what that means?

I didnít really think about it too much when I wrote that. I guess there are many layers to it and a lot that can be said to explain.

First, I agree with LH19. I was happy in my 1st MR in an intact traditional family. That was the life I had planned and wanted for myself and my children. Although I got remarried, due to some logistical matters my new wife and her daughter havenít yet moved in with me. So like LH, I still have a lot of single time that I enjoy either by myself or with my kids.

But I also meant that D is still bitter and comes with a price. I still have to pay alimony and child support. I still have to see my kids go from house to house with all their stuff every other week. There is the awkwardness with all the common friends that my ex and I had. And the awkwardness of bringing my new wife into that circle of friends who are still friends with my ex. And then you still need to sort your feelings about all the old memories. Itís definitely a big readjustment.

And then there are the scars from being cheated on. I felt like I was a child who lost his innocence and had to go through a painful experience to mature and learn a different side of life.

All these changes and the experience I went through changed me and my perspective about life. Thatís why I say Iím happy but in a different way. For example, I am much more grateful now for everything I have. I am kinder to the people in my life. I make more efforts to show my gratitude and love. I am more forgiving.

Yet at the same time, I learned to be more at peace with myself. I do things that I like. I have more hobbies than before. I started painting again and playing music. Basically, I do things for myself too.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Life goes on - 04/11/21 06:01 PM
Kiro, good to hear from you! When LBSs first come here it is so hard because we watch them struggle so much. To see you come back and with such strength and obvious control over your own life is so rewarding! I think most get there, but don't always come back to say they did.

Of course, many repeat their same mistakes. I did after my sitch in 2005. A good friend of mine is repeating history again in his new marriage. It requires being on guard and always working to prevent a repeat. (Note, this isn't for all LBSs since some WSs are just flawed and no matter how great of a S the LBS is the WS is going to flake out.)

We went out to a nice place last night for our 22nd anniversary. I always think back to where we were in 2005 and 2017 and resolve that I'm going to do all in my power to prevent it from occurring again. I can guarantee that if it all falls apart ever again that it won't be because of me.
Posted By: kiro Re: Life goes on - 04/12/21 01:46 AM
Originally Posted by SteveLW
(Note, this isn't for all LBSs since some WSs are just flawed and no matter how great of a S the LBS is the WS is going to flake out.)

Yep. Totally true. The LBS has to know that the only thing they control is their own behaviour. They have no control over nor are they responsible for their Sís actions.

Originally Posted by SteveLW
We went out with to a nice place last night for our 22nd anniversary. I always think back to where we were in 2005 and 2017 and resolve that I'm going to do all in my power to prevent it from occurring again. I can guarantee that if it all falls apart ever again that it won't be because of me.

Iím really happy for you Steve. I hope things continue working out and that both you will live happily together. Nothing gives me more joy than seeing people reconcile their MR.

I totally agree with you about learning from mistakes and doing everything you can to have a healthy relationship. The feeling that you did everything you could is very important.
Posted By: markw Re: Life goes on - 04/12/21 05:54 AM
Quote


. There is the awkwardness with all the common friends that my ex and I had. And the awkwardness of bringing my new wife into that circle of friends who are still friends with my ex. And then you still need to sort your feelings about all the old memories. Itís definitely a big readjustment.

And then there are the scars from being cheated on. I felt like I was a child who lost his innocence and had to go through a painful experience to mature and learn a different side of life.
.


i went for a BBQ with joint friends last night and found it very awkward when they announced they are meeting WW and her PA next week! it left me feeling a little betrayed, but i will process this feeling and move on from it, so its interesting to hear someone who has moved on and is introducing his own new wife to those joint friends!
Posted By: kiro Re: Life goes on - 04/12/21 01:54 PM
Originally Posted by markw
i went for a BBQ with joint friends last night and found it very awkward when they announced they are meeting WW and her PA next week! it left me feeling a little betrayed, but i will process this feeling and move on from it, so its interesting to hear someone who has moved on and is introducing his own new wife to those joint friends!

I still havenít introduced her to this circle of friends. But it will happen sooner or later.

I donít know if you can blame your friends for staying in touch with your WW. Itís a very awkward situation for them too. You donít know what story your WW has been telling them. Most friends try not to take sides and they think theyíre doing the right thing by staying neutral and supportive to both sides. Thatís very common.

But I did lose respect to some of my friends who took it a step further and actually encouraged her affair and the separation. But you also need to understand that I only see a small part of the truth. No one will tell you exactly who said what and who encouraged it. So at some point, youíll have to understand that the issues are between your W and you only. Itís better to keep your friends out of it or youíll lose them.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Life goes on - 04/12/21 03:14 PM
Originally Posted by kiro
[quote=markw]
But I did lose respect to some of my friends who took it a step further and actually encouraged her affair and the separation.


Those aren't friends.

We use that term too loosely. I have made no secret to the board that I am a recovering alcoholic. I had "friends" that when I went into recovery no longer wanted to hang out. I made it clear that to remain sober I couldn't be around partying and drinking. They were not interested in hanging out without partying and drinking. Thus, not true friends.

Value true friends. Jettison those that are not.
Posted By: kiro Re: Life goes on - 04/12/21 04:54 PM
Originally Posted by SteveLW

Those aren't friends.

We use that term too loosely. I have made no secret to the board that I am a recovering alcoholic. I had "friends" that when I went into recovery no longer wanted to hang out. I made it clear that to remain sober I couldn't be around partying and drinking. They were not interested in hanging out without partying and drinking. Thus, not true friends.

Value true friends. Jettison those that are not.

I probably need to think about this a little bit. Friendship is a complicated topic. I don't think it's black or white. It often falls in the gray areas.

If I use your example, you clearly expect your true friends to stand by you at any time especially when you're going through tough times. You also expect them to accept your choices and support you whatever these choices are. Right? And you're disappointed that they didn't want to hang out when you didn't want to party anymore. Understandable

But if I apply that same logic to the situation of 2 people splitting up, it means that friends will want to stand by each of you regardless of your choices. If they're as much your friend as they are your spouse's friend, they're put in a difficult predicament.

In a way, to agree on a definition of true friendship, we probably need to agree on a common moral code. A true friend will advise you to do the right thing because they want what's good for you.

But not everyone agrees on what's right and what's wrong. This is especially true when it comes to relationships in our modern days. Many people don't see marriage or family as an important value anymore. They may value independence, individuality, and personal fulfillment as higher values. (I'm not saying that marriage is in contradiction with any of these values necessarily)

When a WS starts behaving in a wayward, they usually have a different story to tell their friends. They'll say that they were unhappy in the MR, they'll accuse the LBS (often unfairly) of abusive behavior, they'll talk about finding their true self, their freedom, their independence, etc. They'll say a lot of things that could sound appealing and convicing to many people.

I think it's difficult to judge all your friends equally. Very few friendships are true and sincere anyway.


Lately, I've also been on the other side of the fence. I have a friend who has been going through separation this past year. And we've been spending a lot of time together. Given my experience, you'd expect that I would try to convince him not to separate. But there is just no way to convince someone of something when their minds are already made. From the outside, many people can accuse me of helping him out in his separation. But it wouldn't be true. The only choices I have are to stand by him and give him good advice when I can or to walk away.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Life goes on - 04/12/21 05:00 PM
Originally Posted by kiro
Originally Posted by SteveLW

Those aren't friends.

We use that term too loosely. I have made no secret to the board that I am a recovering alcoholic. I had "friends" that when I went into recovery no longer wanted to hang out. I made it clear that to remain sober I couldn't be around partying and drinking. They were not interested in hanging out without partying and drinking. Thus, not true friends.

Value true friends. Jettison those that are not.

I probably need to think about this a little bit. Friendship is a complicated topic. I don't think it's black or white. It often falls in the gray areas.

If I use your example, you clearly expect your true friends to stand by you at any time especially when you're going through tough times. You also expect them to accept your choices and support you whatever these choices are. Right? And you're disappointed that they didn't want to hang out when you didn't want to party anymore. Understandable

But if I apply that same logic to the situation of 2 people splitting up, it means that friends will want to stand by each of you regardless of your choices. If they're as much your friend as they are your spouse's friend, they're put in a difficult predicament.

In a way, to agree on a definition of true friendship, we probably need to agree on a common moral code. A true friend will advise you to do the right thing because they want what's good for you.

But not everyone agrees on what's right and what's wrong. This is especially true when it comes to relationships in our modern days. Many people don't see marriage or family as an important value anymore. They may value independence, individuality, and personal fulfillment as higher values. (I'm not saying that marriage is in contradiction with any of these values necessarily)

When a WS starts behaving in a wayward, they usually have a different story to tell their friends. They'll say that they were unhappy in the MR, they'll accuse the LBS (often unfairly) of abusive behavior, they'll talk about finding their true self, their freedom, their independence, etc. They'll say a lot of things that could sound appealing and convicing to many people.

I think it's difficult to judge all your friends equally. Very few friendships are true and sincere anyway.


Lately, I've also been on the other side of the fence. I have a friend who has been going through separation this past year. And we've been spending a lot of time together. Given my experience, you'd expect that I would try to convince him not to separate. But there is just no way to convince someone of something when their minds are already made. From the outside, many people can accuse me of helping him out in his separation. But it wouldn't be true. The only choices I have are to stand by him and give him good advice when I can or to walk away.


Can't really disagree with anything you've said. However, I would point out that standing by a friend that is separating form his wife and actively encouraging him to do so are two completely separate things.

I also submit that a true friend tells his friend when that friend is doing something wrong. For instance, my W and I had really close friends years ago. The W chose to cheat on her husband with a coworker, then leave our friend for this coworker. We stuck by him.......we jettisoned her.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Life goes on - 04/12/21 05:01 PM
Oh and it is a very complex subject, indeed!
© DivorceBusting.com