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Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2

Posted By: crdcheck

Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 07/10/19 04:33 PM

Original thread: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2853370&page=1

Quick background: Wife of nine years told me in early May that in no uncertain terms we are getting a divorce. We started counseling about a year ago where I came clean about my infidelity (serious, long-term). Changed from a road warrior job to a local job (same company as her) 4 weeks before the announcement. At this point she says she can't trust me and that I always put my needs first. We have a three year old. We were seeing a therapist for that year who wasn't pro-marriage and just switched but after the announcement (discernment session was a bust). He recommended DR and "Should I try to work it out".
Posted By: crdcheck

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 07/10/19 04:41 PM

Originally Posted by Steve85
crd, agree to her wanting her own apartment. But insist that the joint account is liquidated (50/50 split) and that you both handle your own finances from this point forward. I assume you can afford the house on your own income?


I could afford the house but it would be a significant financial burden. W and I have equal salaries and our standard of living is based on dual incomes. If the house doesn't sell in a month or two it would be a problem.

I'm also of the mindset that there really isn't a benefit to paying for two homes at this point - we aren't fighting, D3 isn't aware, we still do a lot as a family, W has her own room (i.e. we don't have to see each other after D3 goes to sleep if she doesn't want to) and, because of DB, she's getting virtually no pressure from me. I'm not suggesting that she won't get the emotional space that she wants until she's physically out, but I don't see why I (and D3) should have to pay for that. Not to mention that she has a friend who she can stay with for free.
Posted By: Steve85

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 07/10/19 04:46 PM

Doing anything but going along with her plan will be seen as pressure and pursuit in the way of controlling. Your lives are about to change dramatically in all ways, including financially, no need to delay it. Fact: two incomes afford a higher standard of living than single income. That is a reality you both must face.

And as far as you and D3 paying for that, that is the way life works. Our decisions are not made in a vacuum. They affect other people. No way to get around that.
Posted By: Ready2Change

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 07/10/19 05:42 PM


Read this and understand why I think you should make this statement:

H:"I have been thinking about what you said last night. I believe you are right. I don't think we should prolong this any longer. I think it is best if we get you setup in an apartment. I also think we should drop the price of the house so I can get a place I can afford"

I wish you well during this difficult time

R2C
Posted By: AnotherStander

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 07/10/19 08:05 PM

Originally Posted by crdcheck
Originally Posted by Steve85
crd, agree to her wanting her own apartment. But insist that the joint account is liquidated (50/50 split) and that you both handle your own finances from this point forward. I assume you can afford the house on your own income?


I could afford the house but it would be a significant financial burden. W and I have equal salaries and our standard of living is based on dual incomes. If the house doesn't sell in a month or two it would be a problem.

I'm also of the mindset that there really isn't a benefit to paying for two homes at this point - we aren't fighting, D3 isn't aware, we still do a lot as a family, W has her own room (i.e. we don't have to see each other after D3 goes to sleep if she doesn't want to) and, because of DB, she's getting virtually no pressure from me. I'm not suggesting that she won't get the emotional space that she wants until she's physically out, but I don't see why I (and D3) should have to pay for that. Not to mention that she has a friend who she can stay with for free.


So she wants to move out before the house sells, and what, thinks she can quit paying half the bills and mortgage but still reap half the profits if and when the house sells? Here is what I would tell her- you don't care when she moves out, that's her decision to make. But she WILL have to continue paying half the bills and mortgage until the house sells AND pay 100% of her bills and rent on her new place. She can't afford that? Then tough, she has to stay until the house sells.

As far as cleaning up the kitchen, I agree with LH that you shouldn't argue about it but tell her to ask politely next time, that you don't respond well to demands but you will consider polite requests.
Posted By: Steve85

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 07/10/19 08:19 PM

Originally Posted by AnotherStander


So she wants to move out before the house sells, and what, thinks she can quit paying half the bills and mortgage but still reap half the profits if and when the house sells? Here is what I would tell her- you don't care when she moves out, that's her decision to make. But she WILL have to continue paying half the bills and mortgage until the house sells AND pay 100% of her bills and rent on her new place. She can't afford that? Then tough, she has to stay until the house sells.



AS, just a followup question to this? How does he enforce this? If she moves out, and switches her direct deposit to another account, how does he enforce "you still have to pay half"?
Posted By: Ready2Change

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 07/11/19 06:53 PM

Originally Posted by Steve85
AS, just a followup question to this? How does he enforce this? If she moves out, and switches her direct deposit to another account, how does he enforce "you still have to pay half"?


Part of the divorce claims. lawyer up. Speak with a lawyer ASAP.


I was covering household bills even though I had a rental. Lawyers know the game.
Posted By: crdcheck

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 07/14/19 10:40 PM

Can't believe that it's been four days, it feels like much longer.

I've continued detaching and it honestly feels pretty good. Probably the biggest change has been that I've stopped worrying so much about how she will react and, when she explodes about something, to just calmly respond with my point of view. For example, my brother's wife invited me out for a surprise dinner with them and a couple of other friends on Friday - I accepted without talking to W (I knew that she didn't have plans - we share when we are going to be out), I just told her that I was going. She told me that she would go out Saturday night in a way that seemed like it was retaliation. That was fine with me but she didn't end up going out. Anyway, back to Friday, since the restaurant was around the corner from my house I invited everyone over for a drink beforehand. W flipped out saying that I should have asked her first and that telling her during the day was not enough time to have a conversation. Instead of arguing I asked her (this was over text) what a reasonable time frame would be, validated her feelings ("I can see how this could feel like it came out of left field") and did not respond to her provocations (W: "This is you being passive aggressive for some reason"). I also got her to agree that, before having any non-family in the house (e.g. home showings) that she would extend the same courtesy (24 hours notice, ask rather than tell).

There have been a few other "good bad" conversations (i.e. about something bad but went well) but it really doesn't matter for our marriage - I don't see any way out of our downward trajectory. Got our first offer on the house today and W is still looking at apartments. I won't say that it feels good but it's not the kick in the stomach that it was a few weeks ago. I don't really want to talk with her about it - it gives me anxiety and then I don't think as clearly (e.g. she wants to get a huge place in the most expensive part of town and I struggle to keep from saying "Good luck with doing that on a single income" rather than "uh huh" or bragging about the place I plan to get).

Overall, W seems pretty cold. We'll make dinner together and watch some TV but she's playing on her phone, basically doesn't talk (I was always the one to make conversation but I've stopped that). The hopeful person in me (ha!) thinks that she's getting some feelings and is steeling herself against them. The pessimist in me thinks that she is seeing my detachment and associated lack of yielding to her as me putting my needs first (big complaint) and is thus reinforcing her narrative.

In the DB space, I feel like I'm following a lot of the basic guidance (yay!) but missing one of the key areas - I don't have a measure for success, which means that I may be going down a "cheeseless tunnel" and not really be able to prove it. The thing is that the measures I thought about before (W back in MBR, W takes house off of market temporarily, W touches me) just aren't going to happen. Or, at least, I don't think that I have a path to these. "Never say never" and all that, but I think that that it's the right move to lower my expectations, focus on myself and my dignity. I'm not cheating, I'm "GAL-ing", I'm spending a lot of time w/ D3... that feels right to me. Thoughts?
Posted By: crdcheck

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 07/16/19 04:12 PM

Sent W an email yesterday with some proposed topics to cover, far more than could be done in 20-30 minutes (our new time limit for tricky conversations), bolded the ones important to me and asked her to pick the ones she wanted to cover. We talked about:

Timing/paying for her to get an apartment. Her view is that the longer we are under the same roof the more likely it is that there will be a blow up between us, that D3 senses that there is an issue, that she has more of a need to get a place locked down, and that not having a place locked down gives her anxiety. I validated (though I don't agree with all of her logic) and shared my perspective, that she is always welcome to leave, but that it will be on her dime. She tried to pull a "kitchen sink" approach (bringing in all kinds of random stories and issues) and I held to the home topic. We eventually agreed that no lease would be signed until we had a temporary custody arrangement on paper and an approach for paying for it. I didn't want it to come across as a threat but I did share that any big unilateral expenses would not be viewed as wanting to work together in D3's best interests.

Planning of weeks. We've been pretty good about letting each other know when we will be out (e.g. going to gym, doing open houses) but there have been a couple of gaps that I wanted to talk through. Good conversation overall, there were some miscommunications (W took D3 to the pool on Sunday and didn't tell me when she would be back, couldn't respond to texts because they were in the pool, which upset me - turns out she thought that she told me, and maybe I forgot).

1:1 interactions. This really boiled down to me saying that it's grating when people are messaging on their phones in front of me (and/or D3) virtually nonstop; I told her that she is fully within her rights to tell me to just deal with it but that, for me, that may mean that, when D3 is in bed, I go over to my brother's house to hang out. I don't mind being alone but I really don't like being next to someone who is so focused on someone else. She was definitely upset, threw up that I was on my phone more (I'm on my phone, but more browsing, which feels different than interacting with someone not in the same room), that we've had arguments about this in the past, and so on. I validated, said that I agree that I haven't been perfect with my phone either.

Speaking of the phone, as part of my "plan" put in place in October to improve trust I was texting W every time I left/arrived somewhere which I continued to do even after she announced the divorce. I figured that the possibility that it showed my continuing commitment to rebuilding trust outweighed the fact that it's not aligned with detaching. Anyway, she told me that I don't have to do it anymore. I wasn't sure how to respond because I know that I don't have to do anything, it's all a choice. But I don't want to ignore her boundaries. So, I asked "so you are saying that you don't want me to text?" and she danced around it a bit but ultimately said "yes". That's a disappointment because it is a nail in the trust-building coffin and I didn't bring it up, she did (i.e. it wasn't like I was asking if it helped, I don't bring up anything from my plan, etc.).

Last item: she has noticed that I "just leave" and she did acknowledge that she was irritated with it but that she had to ask herself why she was feeling that way, etc. So, while I feel that I am still on a bad path (i.e. divorce is all but a given) at least I can say that I tried something different. On the other hand, the fact that I don't initiate conversations beyond greetings (a very positive "good morning!" etc.) has led to little conversation at all which I think that she believes means that I'm angry with her (i.e. feeds into her narrative that I sulk and turn mean when I'm mad). It's not that, and I honestly feel better than I've felt in months (not always, of course), but it seems like she's so stuck in her head that she can't imagine that she could be a contributor to the environment.

I'm not sure that I am looking for any specific advice right now but if anyone has any suggestions for other "tunnels" to try I'm all ears.
Posted By: Steve85

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 07/16/19 05:41 PM

So when I read all of that I couldn't help but feel your desire to control. The fact that her phone use "bothers" you is on you! Why even discuss that. In our sitches, words are meaningless. This where you set a boundary........for YOU!

"When D3 is in bed, if W starts texting incessantly, I am going to tell her I am going out for a while and go hang at brothers."

So just do that, don't try to control her phone usage! Further, even if you do end up controlling that, do you think it will stop? Or will she go covert with it? She could be like my W and go into the bathroom for 2 hours so she could text freely with EAP. "Oh, my stomach is really upset. I kept feeling like I had to go!"

Same thing with the "in October to improve trust I was texting W every time I left/arrived somewhere which I continued to do even after she announced the divorce". Hmmmm really? Or was this your way of showing her what you require when she is out? crd, trying to control can take many forms. Manipulation. Threats. Guilt. Etc. I know how LBSs think about this because in my 2005 sitch I did the same thing. I gave all of my passwords for everything to my W. "Just wanted to be fully open with you." Remember, she is the one that had an EA in 2005.Admittedly, I was hoping in the spirit of building trust, she would reciprocate. She didn't.

So drop the rope. Stop trying to control. If she engages in things you can't handle, then get out and GAL!
Posted By: unchien

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 07/16/19 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by crdcheck
the fact that I don't initiate conversations beyond greetings (a very positive "good morning!" etc.) has led to little conversation at all which I think that she believes means that I'm angry with her (i.e. feeds into her narrative that I sulk and turn mean when I'm mad). It's not that, and I honestly feel better than I've felt in months (not always, of course), but it seems like she's so stuck in her head that she can't imagine that she could be a contributor to the environment.

You can only control your own words and actions, not how your W decides to react or interpret them.

I had the exact same reaction from my W when I mostly stopped initiating convo's, and when I would "just leave" to go for a walk to clear my head. MWD writes in DR about experimenting with different things and then adjusting your approach based on the results, but I think this applies more when the MR's are pre-BD and in less dire situations. I think you are pretty much "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" on most of these approaches. So keep doing what feels good and stay focused on self-improvement. You have a long road ahead. From your posts I think rebuilding trust with your W, if that is going to happen, will take a very long time.

One completely arbitrary and skewed opinion I have is that all the "milestone" events during this process (BD, D filing, moving out, D closing) don't necessarily need to mean you adjust or change your approach. The danger is that often we are stuck in limbo for months or years, then there is a sudden sea change due to hitting some milestone event, and it is quite easy to feel the need to make a sudden change to one's approach out of desperation to stave off the next big event.

I know trust is a major issue in your sitch. Mine as well (for different reasons). I asked our MC "How can I rebuild trust?" and he said "That's not for me or your W to answer. You need to figure that out." Regardless of whether you R, I think it is really positive to work on rebuilding trust with your W. It will make you a stronger person. She has specifically told you to stop texting. But you will be interacting at least talking about money and D3. There are opportunities there to demonstrate integrity and trustworthiness.

Everything your W is doing (on her phone while you watch TV, triggered by little things, etc.) is exactly what my sitch was like the last 2-3 months. She was checked out of the MR, just going through the motions being pleasant as a roommate and that's about it. My sitch is different (trial S, I moved out), but what I can say is that I feel this huge sense of relief now that we live apart just having some time and space away from the daily grind. And I can see my W, when we do interact, seems less wound up and stressed. Your W seems like she's triggered by literally anything you do at the moment, so unfortunately the likely way for her to change her mindset is this change of scenery.

I can't remember - are you two still going to MC?
Posted By: crdcheck

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 07/16/19 08:52 PM

Originally Posted by Steve85
So when I read all of that I couldn't help but feel your desire to control. The fact that her phone use "bothers" you is on you! Why even discuss that. In our sitches, words are meaningless. This where you set a boundary........for YOU!

"When D3 is in bed, if W starts texting incessantly, I am going to tell her I am going out for a while and go hang at brothers."

So just do that, don't try to control her phone usage! Further, even if you do end up controlling that, do you think it will stop? Or will she go covert with it? She could be like my W and go into the bathroom for 2 hours so she could text freely with EAP. "Oh, my stomach is really upset. I kept feeling like I had to go!"


Just to be clear, I have no interest in trying to control her phone usage, it's just really grating when someone is hanging out with you and they are busy messaging other people. And if she doesn't want to hang out that's fine. It just feels like I'm being a d**k if I stop hanging out with her without an explanation. The other side is that I can try to ignore it but it really does drive me crazy (not just from her) and I don't want to be a grump (and I don't want it to hurt other conversations).

Originally Posted by Steve85

Same thing with the "in October to improve trust I was texting W every time I left/arrived somewhere which I continued to do even after she announced the divorce". Hmmmm really? Or was this your way of showing her what you require when she is out? crd, trying to control can take many forms. Manipulation. Threats. Guilt. Etc. I know how LBSs think about this because in my 2005 sitch I did the same thing. I gave all of my passwords for everything to my W. "Just wanted to be fully open with you." Remember, she is the one that had an EA in 2005.Admittedly, I was hoping in the spirit of building trust, she would reciprocate. She didn't.


Absolutely not. I cheated, not her. I had a documented plan for what I would do/not do (e.g. not going out to parties by myself, staying off of facebook) and, as far as I was concerned, until we weren't married or she told me otherwise I would follow the plan. The alternative was that she would assume that I was out hooking up or just looking for an excuse to not follow the plan (one of her pre-D criticisms has been any of my misses, e.g. if I forget to text right away). I'm not snooping, inquiring, trying to figure out what she's doing, etc.
Originally Posted by Steve85

So drop the rope. Stop trying to control. If she engages in things you can't handle, then get out and GAL!

I hear you and I get that this is part of DBing but please also understand that her issues with me are trust and a belief that I always put myself first, and if I just peace out without telling her why or refuse to eat dinner with her that aligns with that narrative - I have to strike the right balance.
Posted By: crdcheck

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 07/16/19 08:58 PM

Originally Posted by unchien

I had the exact same reaction from my W when I mostly stopped initiating convo's, and when I would "just leave" to go for a walk to clear my head. MWD writes in DR about experimenting with different things and then adjusting your approach based on the results, but I think this applies more when the MR's are pre-BD and in less dire situations. I think you are pretty much "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" on most of these approaches. So keep doing what feels good and stay focused on self-improvement. You have a long road ahead. From your posts I think rebuilding trust with your W, if that is going to happen, will take a very long time.


Thanks, good to know that my sitch is not completely abnormal.
Originally Posted by unchien

I know trust is a major issue in your sitch. Mine as well (for different reasons). I asked our MC "How can I rebuild trust?" and he said "That's not for me or your W to answer. You need to figure that out." Regardless of whether you R, I think it is really positive to work on rebuilding trust with your W. It will make you a stronger person. She has specifically told you to stop texting. But you will be interacting at least talking about money and D3. There are opportunities there to demonstrate integrity and trustworthiness.

Yep, agreed. I don't see the not-texting as indicating that I have no options in the future but it certainly reduces it.
Originally Posted by unchien

Everything your W is doing (on her phone while you watch TV, triggered by little things, etc.) is exactly what my sitch was like the last 2-3 months. She was checked out of the MR, just going through the motions being pleasant as a roommate and that's about it. My sitch is different (trial S, I moved out), but what I can say is that I feel this huge sense of relief now that we live apart just having some time and space away from the daily grind. And I can see my W, when we do interact, seems less wound up and stressed. Your W seems like she's triggered by literally anything you do at the moment, so unfortunately the likely way for her to change her mindset is this change of scenery.

Honestly, I'm looking forward to having the house sold so we can get that space. I'm feeling ok in general now that I'm not concerning myself with ensuring that I do nothing wrong in her mind but it's clear that she's not and, if we are to R, it won't be while she's upset. I wish that she were open to a trial separation for a variety of reasons - I think that she will hold my post-D behavior against me (she's really judgmental).

Originally Posted by unchien

I can't remember - are you two still going to MC?


We were seeing one to be able to discuss coparenting but I don't think she's a fan so I'm leaving it up to her as to whether we continue or not. No pressure.
Posted By: unchien

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 07/16/19 09:27 PM

crd - Re: trust building. The October documented plan was a great start, but in real life things are not that concrete and easy to implement. Simply saying what you will do, then doing what you said, is a great way to start. "I will pick up D3 at 4pm" - be there on time.

You've also mentioned your W complained you always put your needs first. Do you agree with her, or find some grain of truth in what she says?

Whether or not it's fair or unfair for her to distrust you, or accuse you of selfishness, I think there is value regardless of the outcome of your MR to find the truth in what she says, and think about what you can change for your future relationships (including R if that opportunity arises).

Note I am *not* saying her truth is more valid than yours. A lot of this process is sorting out what is yours, and what is not.

I agree on your approach to MC. Leave it up to her.
Posted By: crdcheck

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 07/17/19 09:36 PM

Originally Posted by unchien
crd - Re: trust building. The October documented plan was a great start, but in real life things are not that concrete and easy to implement. Simply saying what you will do, then doing what you said, is a great way to start. "I will pick up D3 at 4pm" - be there on time.


Yep, will do. I follow through on my commitments but not always 100% - maybe I didn't text as soon as I got to a friend's house. Interpretation is that I don't care rather than an honest slip. Anything less than 100% is unacceptable with W. But no excuses, and no reason to give up, even if we don't have a relationship.
Originally Posted by unchien
You've also mentioned your W complained you always put your needs first. Do you agree with her, or find some grain of truth in what she says?

Whether or not it's fair or unfair for her to distrust you, or accuse you of selfishness, I think there is value regardless of the outcome of your MR to find the truth in what she says, and think about what you can change for your future relationships (including R if that opportunity arises).

I absolutely agree with her that the examples she cites could be seen as me just doing what I want. Where we disagree is a) in the why and b) whether I always do it or is she ignoring the bigger picture. As to "a" she says that I'm a narcissist who doesn't care about her. The (well, my) reality is that I did all kinds of things for her, asked and unasked, and never got feedback as to what was valuable vs what wasn't, which areas where I resisted and she didn't care vs. areas where she was really upset. So, she could say that she wants to eat Thai tonight and I could say "eh, I had it at lunch, why don't we do Mexican" and she could think (but not say) that it's an example of me not caring about her, that she wants to eat healthier and I just think about what I want. But if I say "hey, sure, I mean, I had Thai for lunch but I love it so fine, let's do it" it's not noticed.

Between October and shortly after the D announcement I yielded to her on just about everything unless I let myself get triggered (e.g. if she wanted me to take D3 to the doctor and I had done that last two appointments, she would say that her work is "higher stakes" than mine and I let that set me off rather than listening to her view and expressing how hurtful that comment is to me). Since detaching I know that she sees me as not caring as much about her because I'm not automatically deferring.
Posted By: crdcheck

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 07/17/19 09:47 PM

So had a bad night last night. We'd agreed that last night I would go out, she would stay home, and tonight she goes out and I stay home. I went out with a mutual friend (male, reliable) for a happy hour and then a college alumni event that happened to be at a restaurant a half block from my house. Got home at 9:30 PM or so, no issues. W shared some stories from the evening (nice! she chose to converse on her own).

Problem was when she said that she found an apartment and said that she could move in August 1st. She made it sound like she'd essentially signed an agreement and this was contrary to the discussion we'd had the night before (that we would make no large financial commitments without running by each other and that we wouldn't move out prior to documenting our property and financial separation approach along with custody with our mediator). I have intense anxiety about this whole thing because I'm worried that she will do something that she feels is justified and then I'm left either just taking it or going the litigation route. Anyway, I don't think that I used the wrong words with her (no cursing, no accusations, no "kitchen sink" items) but my tone was terrible, accusatory, and she got upset and stormed out. My reaction definitely fit with her narrative that I'm negative and probably came across as controlling.

So, what I should have done is to say "It sounds great that you found a place that works. This is a lot for me to digest, it's late (we have an agreement to not have serious conversations after 9 PM), and I've had a few drinks - can we talk about this tomorrow? I feel like there are some open items we need to work through before signing anything". Obviously I can't go back and do it the "right" way but I did apologize this morning, explained that my reaction was not what it should have been. W thanked me.
Posted By: unchien

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 07/17/19 10:48 PM

crd - Good on you for analyzing how you could have approached it differently. We all make mistakes, mistakes are learning opportunities.

Can you please add a signature to your posts? I can't remember if D is filed, or if you are just separating for now.

It is entirely reasonable to want to document the financial, property and custody approach prior to actually separating. Bring it up next time in mediation. Also think about what level of documentation you require, and how much you trust your W to hold to the agreement. Your W may have a different idea of what "documenting our approach" actually means.
Posted By: crdcheck

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 07/18/19 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by unchien
Can you please add a signature to your posts? I can't remember if D is filed, or if you are just separating for now.


Done! Though right now I'm not seeing any signatures for some reason.

Feel like I'm sliding back a bit today. Everything was fine, we both did our own thing last night (W went to sister-in-law's, my side, for dinner) so I was home w/ D3, did some research on different home options, etc after she went to bed. Slept great (which is notable because when I get stressed about this I find myself waking up at 3-4 in the morning and struggling to get back to sleep). This morning was fine, too. But then I was having a 1:1 w/ a colleague at work and she mentioned that she sat next to W at a meeting (we work at the same company, I joined just a month before the D announcement so that I would be off the road, focusing my my family) and that kind of hit me - we are going to be intertwined for. ever. And not just for a few events here and there (not that that's nothing) but our work overlaps significantly. I will see her at least every other day and we will likely be in meetings together soon.

So, feeling sad at the moment where I didn't before. Like, we have so much in common, we have the same friends, colleagues, daughter, approach to finances, interest in travel, etc.etc. etc. and that's all going away. And there will be daily reminders. Not sure that I'm looking for advice, just felt like sharing. But if anyone has anything I'm listening.
Posted By: Steve85

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 07/18/19 08:30 PM

Originally Posted by crdcheck
Originally Posted by unchien
Can you please add a signature to your posts? I can't remember if D is filed, or if you are just separating for now.


Done! Though right now I'm not seeing any signatures for some reason.


You must be on a smartphone. To see them on smartphones, turn the phone sideways.

Originally Posted by crdcheck

Feel like I'm sliding back a bit today. Everything was fine, we both did our own thing last night (W went to sister-in-law's, my side, for dinner) so I was home w/ D3, did some research on different home options, etc after she went to bed. Slept great (which is notable because when I get stressed about this I find myself waking up at 3-4 in the morning and struggling to get back to sleep). This morning was fine, too. But then I was having a 1:1 w/ a colleague at work and she mentioned that she sat next to W at a meeting (we work at the same company, I joined just a month before the D announcement so that I would be off the road, focusing my my family) and that kind of hit me - we are going to be intertwined for. ever. And not just for a few events here and there (not that that's nothing) but our work overlaps significantly. I will see her at least every other day and we will likely be in meetings together soon.

So, feeling sad at the moment where I didn't before. Like, we have so much in common, we have the same friends, colleagues, daughter, approach to finances, interest in travel, etc.etc. etc. and that's all going away. And there will be daily reminders. Not sure that I'm looking for advice, just felt like sharing. But if anyone has anything I'm listening.


Meh. There are more jobs out there. If it becomes a problem find another job. You will be coparents for the next several decades. You only have to be coworkers if you choose to be.
Posted By: unchien

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 07/18/19 09:00 PM

Originally Posted by crdcheck
Feel like I'm sliding back a bit today. Everything was fine, we both did our own thing last night (W went to sister-in-law's, my side, for dinner) so I was home w/ D3, did some research on different home options, etc after she went to bed. Slept great (which is notable because when I get stressed about this I find myself waking up at 3-4 in the morning and struggling to get back to sleep). This morning was fine, too. But then I was having a 1:1 w/ a colleague at work and she mentioned that she sat next to W at a meeting (we work at the same company, I joined just a month before the D announcement so that I would be off the road, focusing my my family) and that kind of hit me - we are going to be intertwined for. ever. And not just for a few events here and there (not that that's nothing) but our work overlaps significantly. I will see her at least every other day and we will likely be in meetings together soon.

So, feeling sad at the moment where I didn't before. Like, we have so much in common, we have the same friends, colleagues, daughter, approach to finances, interest in travel, etc.etc. etc. and that's all going away. And there will be daily reminders. Not sure that I'm looking for advice, just felt like sharing. But if anyone has anything I'm listening.

crd - Part of the grieving process. Sit with it, there's no way around it other than going through it. Try not to catastrophize your thinking, just experience the feelings, but don't wallow. Anger, sadness, anxiety, worry, all of it. My W communicated the BD in June but I really knew in March -- I'm 3-4 months in and still grieving but in a much better place. For awhile every day I would experience 2-3 episodes of intense grief at random times, it was rough. It gets better.
Posted By: crdcheck

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 07/19/19 08:59 PM

Stressful evening and day. We have a list of things to talk about once D3 is in bed, everything from basic weekly planning (who is taking D3 to swim lessons on Saturday?) to deeper divorce items (e.g. how/when we will purchase the random stuff needed to create a new house). These actually go pretty well for the most part. We seem to both be respectful of each other and willing to work together on our tactical needs and wants. It's funny, those moments are where I'm like "if this is so easy why are we breaking up?" But then we got into the topic of her moving out. To recap and make clear - I'm fine with her moving out (to be honest, I am looking forward to having this all behind me). The issue is how her new apartment is paid for and for how long. That debate doesn't really matter because we had agreed that a) all joint expenses would have to be approved by both of us and b) that this was something that we would discuss at our next mediation session. She casually mentioned that she's having a painter over to the place she found which I ignored (thought it could be bait or maybe she doesn't "get" how stressed this makes me).

Actually, I should break for a sec - it stresses me out because, if it were the other way around, she'd be dropping mediation and going to a litigator. I feel that this is putting me and D3 at an economic disadvantage and is disrespectful. My worry is that the only option I feel I have if she starts taking money out of our joint account is litigation and that will cost us all in so many ways. So, that she's moving out doesn't stress me out - that she will walk all over me and give me no option but to litigate... well, that's terrifying.

So, she got upset last night when I said that I wasn't on board with us jointly paying for her apartment (same as I've written before), she got mad and stormed upstairs (I remained calm). I did validate but she doesn't want to hear it - all she wants is my agreement to give her what she wants. That continued into today with texts, me expressing that I'm concerned about either of us making unilateral decisions about joint items and reiterating that this should be discussed with our mediator who can guide the conversation and document the outcomes.

The other thing she mentioned is that she doesn't want me to mention to colleagues that we are married, that "it is going to make it very uncomfortable for both of us to backtrack and brings our personal situation to work". I don't know what to say to that - she's told at least six people in her org that we are getting divorced and has stopped wearing her ring, but there was no communication to me about her expectations. What should I say when I meet someone and they say "Oh, you're W's husband!"? "Uh, no, actually, we're separated"?

Once again probably just sharing/venting. As noted in previous posts, it's clear that there is no way for me to "win" - she's vilified me. I hate playing into her narrative but I'm not going to compromise my and D3's lives for her sake, and I'm not going to be a doormat.

Overall probably a bit more angry than sad today. Wish we could just be done with this.
Posted By: unchien

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 07/20/19 06:30 AM

crd - Simplify. What are the things you do care about? Focus on those. The rest, as stressful as it may be, I suggest you let slide, or you will get in daily battles.

Regarding the work item, what do you want to do? Ignore what your W wants to do. Then discuss in mediation as it does affect both of you, and I think it is wise to try to come to agreement.

Regarding the money - the painter is absolutely argument bait. Ignore it. Let it go. Just my opinion, easy for me to say, it's not my money. For the rent and term, discuss in mediation.

Money is a huge trigger for me as well. I just choose to ignore about 90% of the issues that come up because I want to focus on my own well-being and my kids.

You could also consider separating finances now.

Why do you think you would need to go to litigation? Do you suspect she will sign a lease without your approval, even though you discussed agreeing to this item in mediation? If that is the main sticking point, make it clear to your W now that you expect you will work this out in mediation before she takes any action, but also that you are hopeful you can come to agreement on something that will work for everyone (i.e., you don't need to make it sound like a threat, just a "hey, I'm not okay if you just sign a lease.). Also consider what is your proposal, and at what point you are willing to compromise. Art of negotiating.

Also I would advise not getting into text message conversations on this item. Text messaging is absolutely the worst form of communication. Texts can be misinterpreted in so many ways, and they often are emotion-driven. If she starts a text thread on this topic, just reply, "I would like to discuss this next week in mediation and not over text." I've been in a few text battles the last few weeks, I started replying in this way, and my W stopped. I will use e-mail sometimes as I feel like there is time to reply and be thorough and specific. Now we only text pictures of the kids, and basic logistic information.

Do you have a good custody plan in place?
Posted By: crdcheck

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 07/22/19 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by unchien
crd - Simplify. What are the things you do care about? Focus on those. The rest, as stressful as it may be, I suggest you let slide, or you will get in daily battles.

Yep, that's what I've been doing, much like most of our relationship (pick battles). One of my worries is that giving in on one leads to the next, to the next and so on. For example, her rush to move out was enabled by my allowing the house to be put on the market before we had property/finance split approach on paper with mediator. That allowed her to see a light at the end of the tunnel that she is accelerating toward.

Originally Posted by unchien
Regarding the work item, what do you want to do? Ignore what your W wants to do. Then discuss in mediation as it does affect both of you, and I think it is wise to try to come to agreement.

I am doing what I want to do and what I think is reasonable - we are married right now, everyone knows both of us, and saying anything else invites conversation that I assume she'd rather not have. I mean, it will be easy to say "yes, I know W - we actually split up recently" and then move on. But we haven't yet...
Originally Posted by unchien

Why do you think you would need to go to litigation? Do you suspect she will sign a lease without your approval, even though you discussed agreeing to this item in mediation? If that is the main sticking point, make it clear to your W now that you expect you will work this out in mediation before she takes any action, but also that you are hopeful you can come to agreement on something that will work for everyone (i.e., you don't need to make it sound like a threat, just a "hey, I'm not okay if you just sign a lease.). Also consider what is your proposal, and at what point you are willing to compromise. Art of negotiating.

Yep, done. I think that she signed anyway. I'm keeping an eye on the checking account. Thing is that she's vilified me, there's nothing I can do that is positive in her mind, and because of my cheating everything she does is justified in her mind. So I'm left with the nuclear option of litigation (if it comes to that).

On a positive note, seeing how anti-me she is helps me to detach. I recognize that she's hurt and angry and that this could change, but I can't reconcile with the person she is right now. Perhaps she'll see my changes after the D and will open her mind a bit but there's literally nothing I can do at this point. And for what it's worth, I'm pretty sure that there was nothing I could have done over the past six months - perhaps if I had stood up (GAL, been assertive) that would have prompted deeper conversations with our MC but that's still a stretch.
Originally Posted by unchien

Also I would advise not getting into text message conversations on this item. Text messaging is absolutely the worst form of communication. Texts can be misinterpreted in so many ways, and they often are emotion-driven. If she starts a text thread on this topic, just reply, "I would like to discuss this next week in mediation and not over text." I've been in a few text battles the last few weeks, I started replying in this way, and my W stopped. I will use e-mail sometimes as I feel like there is time to reply and be thorough and specific. Now we only text pictures of the kids, and basic logistic information.

Texts have been hit or miss, they keep us from getting too wordy but still allow for some thought. They are also the only option when D3 is in the picture.

Having said that, W blew up on me via text on Friday because, when I picked D3 up from summer camp, she wanted to go to her cousins, so I called W to see if that was ok. She didn't pick up so I texted. We had to go home to walk the dog and W went ballistic. She had planned to be late because she was meeting with the painter at her new apartment but that canceled, apparently. I figured I would have 30 min with the cousins and then head home. W wanted to do a movie night with D3 and me and, even though I repeatedly offered to cancel the cousins plans, she just kept flipping out on me. Totally ridiculous but allowed others (who are listening to her complain about me) see that she's not being completely logical or honest with them. FWIW I did try to call rather than text but she refused.

Originally Posted by unchien
Do you have a good custody plan in place?

We've drafted one with the mediator and are mostly aligned except for one holiday. However, it's not in place yet. That's one of the reasons I don't want leases signed, people moving out, etc., until we meet with the mediator - we have both made assumptions and, without them having been talked through and put on paper, we have a huge risk of being misaligned.

So, the weekend went pretty well, despite the fireworks Fri evening (re: cousin time - W locked herself in the guest room once D3 was in bed). Worked out Sat morning while W took D3 to dance, I took D3 to swim lessons in the afternoon and W tagged along, and then I had solo time with D3 at the pool until the evening when I went out with some friends. Pre-GALing I would have probably tagged along for the dance lesson (not necessary to have two parents but I would have felt guilty about letting W do it by herself) so no workout, definitely wouldn't have gone out with the friends because I'd be worried about what W would be thinking. Yesterday W took D3 to a friend's house to play then to the pool. I went out for lunch with my brother's family and in-laws, then open houses (found a really great option - D3 would get an entire floor to herself!), then met with a college alumnus who is divorced and remarried for his perspective. Had bro and his wife over for dinner after that. So, out doing what I want to do, nothing I shouldn't be doing.

W seems super cold in general, playing on phone, maybe annoyed that bro was talking about the houses we toured. Again, 1-2 months ago I'd be freaking out about how she's feeling, if I've upset her, if she's looking up lawyers on her phone. Now, well, I am still a bit scared, and I am still a bit sad because I see this as so repairable, but I'm not letting it run my life.

Last item (and could use feedback on this) - D3 doesn't have summer camp for three weeks starting next week so W's family a few hours away is watching her for the first week. We normally go altogether and W asked me what I wanted to do. Given that it's her family I told her that if she wanted me to go, I would go, and if she wants to go solo, then she is welcome to do so. She decided to go solo. I'm sad because this is a family thing and, as someone who enjoys serving others, I enjoyed serving my family by doing the [boring] drive. I'm also a bit sad since D3 will be away from me for a whole week (rather than five nights if I were to go along to drop her off). Was it wrong to defer?

I'm still really looking forward to being done with the divorce process. I mean, I don't see us reconciling prior to divorce and knowing that someone hates me and is operating from such a negative position is grating. Is this normal? Or is it me mentally giving up?
Posted By: unchien

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 07/22/19 10:01 PM

Originally Posted by crdcheck
Last item (and could use feedback on this) - D3 doesn't have summer camp for three weeks starting next week so W's family a few hours away is watching her for the first week. We normally go altogether and W asked me what I wanted to do. Given that it's her family I told her that if she wanted me to go, I would go, and if she wants to go solo, then she is welcome to do so. She decided to go solo. I'm sad because this is a family thing and, as someone who enjoys serving others, I enjoyed serving my family by doing the [boring] drive. I'm also a bit sad since D3 will be away from me for a whole week (rather than five nights if I were to go along to drop her off). Was it wrong to defer?

I'm still really looking forward to being done with the divorce process. I mean, I don't see us reconciling prior to divorce and knowing that someone hates me and is operating from such a negative position is grating. Is this normal? Or is it me mentally giving up?

crd - My W took my kids to the ILs for a week right after the BD. We had the same discussion, and decided (mutually) that I would not go. Perhaps you could negotiate some 1:1 time with D3 in return before the end of summer? Or ask to do a daily video chat (or whatever frequency you prefer) with her while she is at ILs?

For text blow-ups, I am learning on the fly also. Our MC says: "Who will be where at what time?" That's all you need to text. Now... it works best if you both are on board. Anytime she flips out, I would suggest calling her out on it, or just drawing a boundary that you will not keep responding to accusations or mind-reading. Also, general advice, don't try to change agreed-upon plans, even if it seems easy. My W wanted to take D5 to a party last weekend, I should have said no, but once I said yes, I was not going to renegotiate. I gritted my teeth and let it lie.

I am also engaging in some of the "playing family" stuff like you - I think it's really up to you how to handle it. We may do some family dinners here and there, but I'm gradually disengaging. I just don't see the point, it's way more enjoyable when I'm alone with my kids right now.

I also have wanted a lot of details documented, but I have learned to relent. It depends how toxic things are - I trust my W in certain areas and not others. I think giving her the leeway is a positive, but it isn't easy to do. As things are falling into place now a little bit, it seems to help that I have not been too legal. Again, I'm only in trial separation though.

Your sentiments about wanting to complete the process sound normal to me. Even in S I feel exactly the same way. It's fundamental: I don't want to be with somebody who does not value me (or only values me as a friend or a co-parent). That is completely natural and healthy. It's almost like the tables have turned. Yes, I have a lot I regret and a lot I want to atone for. I need to be given an open door and an opportunity - if the door is shut, I'll pack up my bag of "lessons learned" and keep walking. If you honestly and genuinely own your mistakes and have made positive changes, there's not much else you can do. I've made a lot of positive changes, and I am open to having honest conversations about how I see things, but only if she is wiling to have that conversation.

The vilification and anger from your W probably does help. In my sitch, I hope my W does find the healing she seeks, whether or not I am her H or not. Because she does seem broken and angry around me so removing myself from the equation seems healthy for all involved.

Every single person on this planet has a breaking point where they will no longer keep trying to "save" something - some people can wait longer and things do work out, or some situations don't take as long to turn around and don't test one's patience. I don't know. Maybe it is the brain's natural response to "give up" once it reaches peak exhaustion, whether or not a situation is truly salvageable. All I know is life is short, we are all imperfect, and this isn't an endurance competition.

Final comment - the physical S is going to do you some good. Your W is super angry and wants to move out. Let her go. It can only help you - not just for your relationship with her, but your own healing and moving on. I sense maybe you are still attached more to family life than your W specifically - I do miss interacting with my W's family, and some friends that are basically her old friends, but that is life for now. It's probably my new reality. Time to meet some new friends.
Posted By: crdcheck

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 07/25/19 09:11 PM

Originally Posted by unchien
I sense maybe you are still attached more to family life than your W specifically - I do miss interacting with my W's family, and some friends that are basically her old friends, but that is life for now. It's probably my new reality. Time to meet some new friends.

This is absolutely true. My W hasn't been a partner to me in years and, while I recognize that at least half of that is my responsibility (obviously the cheating is 100% on me) she has left 100% of the responsibility to fix things on me. I say that because, when I look at D3, she doesn't remember my failures - she sees my new actions, takes them at face value, and moves forward with love. I look at the pictures of the three of us on vacation, during snow days, etc., and say that, no matter how we recover, those are gone. So that's straight-up depressing. And it makes me angry at W because I am fine to move past all of the frustrations of the past, start from a blank slate. But she can't and she blames me.

Anyway, she's off to the ILs this weekend, that's fine. I'm sure that I'll facetime etc.
Posted By: crdcheck

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 07/25/19 09:13 PM

This is such a weird place. I知 detaching. I知 doing what I want for D3, myself. I知 being assertive. I知 looking forward to my single future. I知 acting 殿s if. I知 owning my feelings, not worrying about W痴 feelings (to clarify - I'm not changing my reasonable behavior simply to manage her feelings). With all that I知 now of the mindset that, "hey, I have done some terrible things, but I知 a good person at my core and, for W to leave, that says more about her than about me." So, logistically, I just want this to all be done. House sold, my own place, 50/50 custody in place, and not really have to talk to W except for D3 items. There are even some points where I知 just sort of done with her, don稚 really want it to work out. Can稚 tell if she痴 pushing buttons or that痴 just who she is. So all pretty straightforward.

That is, until I think that tonight may be the last night we have as a family of three (W taking D3 to inlaws solo, leaving her there for a week, then they come stay with us for a week, then D3 to my family for a week this last week is when W plans to move out). W asked me to grab some of D3痴 school papers from her desk and I noticed that she壇 removed all of our wedding photos. And between those two I知 nearly in tears. I don稚 really know why. I mean, I logically know that this is over and I have a future to look forward to (I have no shortage of people to hang out with, things to do), and there are parts of her that I honestly can稚 stand. But I still feel like I知 losing a huge part of myself, that all I want is for us to have another chance.

The feeling will pass. I知 joining a couple of friends for a broader company happy hour tomorrow, my dad is in town Sat/Sun and we値l get together, and I知 looking at houses with my brother on Sunday. I just I don稚 know I feel like this is wrong and a loss and I want to scream, yell, beg, promise, etc. to make it stop.
Posted By: unchien

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 07/25/19 09:26 PM

The rational part of you knows it is time to move on.

The emotional part of you still has grieving to do, all 5 stages. Accept that you'll have to go through it. You are only 2 months since the BD -- it's going to take a long time to sort yourself out. That's just not enough time to process everything.

I don't want to make this sound like false hope, but people do R after D. Sometimes space is what is needed for some healing, on both sides. One of my friends went through D (his W had a PA, then filed on him), and over a year after finalization they suddenly tried to R. This after a nasty D process full of anger. Not once, but twice. R didn't take. Now he's happier than he's ever been with his long-term live-in GF. I'm just saying... have an open mind, recognize there are a million possibilities from here on out, doors are never slammed shut, but new doors will open too.

I have my kids 30% of the time now, I miss them unbelievably, it is heart-breaking to see them forced to adapt to this situation, but... overall, I can't deny that I am happier right now than I was living with my W the last several months.

It will get better. Weather the storm
Posted By: crdcheck

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 07/31/19 01:33 AM

Originally Posted by unchien
I don't want to make this sound like false hope, but people do R after D. Sometimes space is what is needed for some healing, on both sides. One of my friends went through D (his W had a PA, then filed on him), and over a year after finalization they suddenly tried to R. This after a nasty D process full of anger. Not once, but twice. R didn't take.


I'm curious - what drove them to try to R? And what ultimately led to the failure? I don't have false hope - the stat I read was that 1/3 of divorced couples attempt to R and, of those, a third succeed. 10% chance is poor but not nothing. At this point, though, it feels like we are barely roommates.

Originally Posted by unchien
I have my kids 30% of the time now, I miss them unbelievably, it is heart-breaking to see them forced to adapt to this situation, but... overall, I can't deny that I am happier right now than I was living with my W the last several months.


Why only 30%?
Posted By: crdcheck

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 07/31/19 01:44 AM

It's been a few days since I've posted. This is both because I haven't had privacy and because there really hasn't been a catastrophe. D3 went solo with her mom to the in-laws last weekend. Minor fight because W didn't make facetime happen but that's not terrible. I had an amazing weekend by myself. Went out with a few old friends and made some new ones Friday at one of those arcade bar things. Thought to myself that there is no way I would have been there if W had been in town (separated or not). She wouldn't have been interested and would have whined that I was not with her. Saturday night had dinner with my bro and his family, my dad was in town. Sunday went house hunting with my brother, found a possible option. Worked out both days. In other words, GAL is going well. Oh, and since it's relevant, I didn't cheat in any way. Going to stick it out through the end.

Emotionally I have been good, too. No sadness, fear, etc. I know that it will come back but it's nice to recognize when it isn't here.

Oh, our house sold. So, that's another nail in the coffin (seems pretty sealed ha). Got a good offer so we are both fairly well-set for our next places. I did insist that we sign homemade paperwork saying that she would pay her own rent and her share of the house until it closed.

Funny thing - W has made a big deal about getting out of the house in the past but when she came back from her parents without D3 (who is staying with them for the week) she came back to the house rather than stay with a friend. I don't see any hope with this, more just interesting that she sometimes says that she can't wait to get away (us together is "toxic") but then, when she has nothing keeping her here, she stays. Crazy. And she is still happy to hang out, eat dinner together and watch TV. crazy

Tomorrow we have another session with our mediator. W is hoping that it's the second to last one. She wants me to compromise more but I feel that her starting point is biased her way (e.g. she'll include gifts from my parents to the house as property but not include gifts from her parents to the house). I'll be calm, collected, and assertive. I have nothing to gain by being angry and I have nothing to gain by yielding nonstop. We'll see how it goes.
Posted By: LH19

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 07/31/19 02:20 AM

Just curious as to why when you have no kids in the house you will hangout, eat dinner and watch tv with her?
Posted By: crdcheck

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 07/31/19 02:42 AM

Originally Posted by LH19
Just curious as to why when you have no kids in the house you will hangout, eat dinner and watch tv with her?

I enjoy spending time with her. In general, I prefer to hang out with anyone rather than no one. Also, she's great at cooking and I'm great at cleaning so figure that we might as well enjoy the (limited) partnership for a bit longer. For what it's worth I don't ask her to hang out - she's off doing her own thing tonight and I don't question.

What are you thinking?
Posted By: LH19

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 07/31/19 02:55 AM

I知 thinking that you池e in the friend zone. Is that acceptable to you? Will you get together and watch tv after you池e D?

Wouldn稚 you being out somewhere peek her interest? Who is CC out with tonight.

Wouldn稚 learning how to be alone and enjoy yourself be a good idea right now?
Posted By: crdcheck

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 07/31/19 03:55 AM

No, it's not acceptable, but it's also short-lived. She's moving out the week after next. I'm moving out by mid-September. I was out of the house this weekend more than I was in and I have plans tomorrow night (plus stayed late at work tonight). I'm doing what I want, no resentment of her, no show, either.

In two weeks she is going to get home to not find D3 for the first time in her life. She's going to compare that experience against what she is leaving behind. Yes, I'm the a-hole husband who cheated. I'm also the great father, the easy friend, and, most importantly, the guy who was willing to work on our marriage while she dashed out the door. I don't see watching TV with her as necessarily improving the potential for R but I also don't see it as reducing the odds. She's vilified me. Having a few final data points of ok times doesn't seem bad to me. And I'm not foregoing other plans. To be honest, I've had a headcold for a week and all I wanted to do after all the nights out was to hang at home.

But maybe I'm looking at this wrong.

One question: what is "cc"? If you mean W then I don't know. Thought that it may have been a baseball game with her team but it's late and she's not home. So who knows?
Posted By: unchien

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 07/31/19 07:20 AM

Originally Posted by crdcheck
Originally Posted by unchien
I don't want to make this sound like false hope, but people do R after D. Sometimes space is what is needed for some healing, on both sides. One of my friends went through D (his W had a PA, then filed on him), and over a year after finalization they suddenly tried to R. This after a nasty D process full of anger. Not once, but twice. R didn't take.


I'm curious - what drove them to try to R? And what ultimately led to the failure? I don't have false hope - the stat I read was that 1/3 of divorced couples attempt to R and, of those, a third succeed. 10% chance is poor but not nothing. At this point, though, it feels like we are barely roommates.

I don't know the detailed history, but the LBH was always open to R, and his WAW made overtures. They tried twice to my knowledge.

I think timing has a lot to do with R failures -- I think it's common for both parties to want to R at some point, but often not at the same time.

Originally Posted by crdcheck
Originally Posted by unchien
I have my kids 30% of the time now, I miss them unbelievably, it is heart-breaking to see them forced to adapt to this situation, but... overall, I can't deny that I am happier right now than I was living with my W the last several months.


Why only 30%?

I assume you mean as opposed to 50/50? Once my youngest is school-age I would press for 50/50 (if our sitch goes that route).

I don't really feel like listing all my rationale, other than just saying 30/70 is what I wanted, my W proposed less, and I got all of what I wanted. So I am satisfied. My only quibble is I have a fairly long stretch between seeing them, so we are working on trying to insert some time in there during those gaps.

We'll see how it goes, my W and I are open to adjusting this schedule once it gets up and running when school starts.
Posted By: LH19

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 07/31/19 08:07 AM

CC is short for Crdcheck
Posted By: crdcheck

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 07/31/19 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by LH19
CC is short for Crdcheck


Ah, that makes sense. I was wondering if you were suggesting that I try to figure out what exactly W was up to, ha. Lots of new acronyms here for me.

Yes, I am going out as much as I can stand without leaning too much on others. Going out tonight for sure, probably tomorrow as well. D3 back on Fri so will spend days with her as much as possible, probably go out after she's in bed.

Posted By: crdcheck

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 07/31/19 01:12 PM

Originally Posted by unchien

I assume you mean as opposed to 50/50? Once my youngest is school-age I would press for 50/50 (if our sitch goes that route).

I don't really feel like listing all my rationale, other than just saying 30/70 is what I wanted, my W proposed less, and I got all of what I wanted. So I am satisfied. My only quibble is I have a fairly long stretch between seeing them, so we are working on trying to insert some time in there during those gaps.

We'll see how it goes, my W and I are open to adjusting this schedule once it gets up and running when school starts.

Got it, and apologies if I came across as direct. One of the quibbles W and I have had is that she is seeing herself as "giving up" 50% of her time with D3 and that I should treat this as a sort of gift from her. I have several issues with this, not the least of which is that my state is a 50/50 default state (so she would have to prove that I shouldn't have D3 50% and with no abuse/drugs/etc. that would be difficult) and that she considers time spent with dad to build a solid relationship a loss of some kind. Was just curious about how others approached.
Posted By: unchien

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 07/31/19 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by crdcheck

Got it, and apologies if I came across as direct. One of the quibbles W and I have had is that she is seeing herself as "giving up" 50% of her time with D3 and that I should treat this as a sort of gift from her. I have several issues with this, not the least of which is that my state is a 50/50 default state (so she would have to prove that I shouldn't have D3 50% and with no abuse/drugs/etc. that would be difficult) and that she considers time spent with dad to build a solid relationship a loss of some kind. Was just curious about how others approached.

CC - No worries, I betrayed my sensitivity on this issue as I am sure some people would suggest I should have pushed for 50/50. I am in a trial separation at the moment so this is not all written in stone, but I understand the importance of establishing regular timeshare if things do evolve into a D.

The rationale for why 30 and not 50 is very long-winded, and specific to my our life circumstances. As part of my new outlook on life and goal of improving emotional awareness, I will admit I feel conflicting emotions about the arrangement. I'm just not convinced 50/50 would have been best for my kids at this moment. Also my 30% is heavily weighted towards weekends which are full days uninterrupted by school, so I feel good about the quality of time I am getting.

See, now I feel like I am being defensive...

For you... if you want 50/50, absolutely go for 50/50. Stand your ground. It doesn't matter what your W thinks. You are your daughter's father, you have equal rights. Are there states that don't start with 50/50 assumption?
Posted By: crdcheck

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/01/19 06:00 PM

Interesting day yesterday. Took the afternoon off to have a 1:1 with my therapist - all was good though she seems to think that I am giving up on trying to R based on my use of DB techniques. I didn't specify that I was getting info from here, etc., just said that I am getting my own life, no longer changing myself to try to make W feel good (or at least not bad), and developing myself into someone that W can respect (whether or not she does is on her).

After IC was our mediation meeting. Got through most of the property pretty easily and no real issues with the sticking points. Most of our stuff is replaceable so if W gets the the silverware then I get a new set paid for out of our joint account. There are a few items where she says that she doesn't want to buy replacements right away but a judge won't sign off on an agreement that has outstanding items. I told her that I'm not in a rush, she's moving out so she is getting her space, so if she can't figure out how to buy 10 things in the next 1-2 months that's on her. She is angry that I won't compromise (her belief, I disagree) and that she feels "pressured". I wasn't perfect but I was pretty good - I should have said that I understand where she is coming from and that she needs to manage her anxiety and feelings as I am managing mine. I said something to that effect but did finally say that most of the pressure is on me, that her drives are to save as much money as possible and get the D finalized as quickly as possible and that anything I say/do that doesn't align to this is antagonistic. I went a step further than I probably should have by saying (for the first time) that all her anxiety, pressure, etc., are caused by her, that she can stop this at any time - I'm the one who is in the back seat just along for the ride. She did not take this well, threw up that we are only getting a D because of my cheating. Mediator put a stop to this which was the right thing but I did feel a bit better by being a bit more honest about how I feel.

The downside is that it plays into her narrative that I'm selfish. I texted her a short note later (right after the session I went to a 1:1 lesson with a sort of meditation professor - part of GAL and really fun) to say that I was sorry for some of the words I used, that they were unproductive. She came back with:

W "I don't care about your words. I care about your willingness to compromise which I don't see"
Me: "I'm sorry that you feel that way. I know that I am compromising on a lot and being deliberate about where I choose to maintain my position"
W: "I don't see where you've compromised. And I haven't held my position on a single thing."
Me: "We have very different perspectives on this. Just so I'm clear, are you saying that you don't see a single place I've compromised since beginning mediation?"
W: "You aren't home are you?"
Me: "No"
[END: I was out with a couple of friends for drinks and then dinner]

For me, this really confirms my belief that she has completely vilified me and that there is nothing I can do. I understand if she (and others) think that I'm not compromising enough but to say that she's given up on everything and I haven't is objectively false. So, reinforces my DBing. The only catch is that I'm really starting to not like her at all.

Anyway, she's hoping that our next mediation session (next week) is the last. I'm doubtful given that there are some relatively big outstanding items. She is acting desperate to have the D finalized which is weird to me since I don't see what the gain is. Don't get me wrong, I'm looking forward to being done with this, too, but a month isn't a big deal, especially considering that she's moving out. Any thoughts?
Posted By: unchien

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/01/19 09:31 PM

Originally Posted by crdcheck

W "I don't care about your words. I care about your willingness to compromise which I don't see"
Me: "I'm sorry that you feel that way. I know that I am compromising on a lot and being deliberate about where I choose to maintain my position"
W: "I don't see where you've compromised. And I haven't held my position on a single thing."
Me: "We have very different perspectives on this. Just so I make sure I heard you correctly, you feel as if you have compromised on every issue and I have compromised on no issues. Is that right?, I'm clear, are you saying that you don't see a single place I've compromised since beginning mediation?"
W: "You aren't home are you?"
Me: "No"
[END: I was out with a couple of friends for drinks and then dinner]

I'm not sure the blue part jibes with DB, but repeating back what you heard (without inserting any opinion or emotion) is a common listening skill that is another form of validating.
Posted By: unchien

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/01/19 09:37 PM

Originally Posted by crdcheck
I went a step further than I probably should have by saying (for the first time) that all her anxiety, pressure, etc., are caused by her, that she can stop this at any time - I'm the one who is in the back seat just along for the ride

Yep, an overstep. I wouldn't beat yourself up, you can do no right anyhow at this stage.

Originally Posted by crdcheck
I texted her a short note later (right after the session I went to a 1:1 lesson with a sort of meditation professor - part of GAL and really fun) to say that I was sorry for some of the words I used, that they were unproductive.

... and she roped you right into the text exchange... You tried to be the bigger person, unfortunately, again, you can do no right.

Originally Posted by crdcheck
Anyway, she's hoping that our next mediation session (next week) is the last. I'm doubtful given that there are some relatively big outstanding items. She is acting desperate to have the D finalized which is weird to me since I don't see what the gain is. Don't get me wrong, I'm looking forward to being done with this, too, but a month isn't a big deal, especially considering that she's moving out. Any thoughts?

I would focus more on the outstanding items and what you would like as an outcome. If that takes 1, 2, 10 sessions, that's what it takes. Ignore her timeline.

She's making a bunch of noise and trying to get you to fall into line. You don't have to fall into line, nor do you have to dig in your heels -- do what is in accordance with your values.
Posted By: Ready2Change

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/02/19 07:38 AM

Originally Posted by unchien
[quote=crdcheck]
W "I don't care about your words. I care about your willingness to compromise which I don't see"
Me: "I'm sorry that you feel that way. I know that I am compromising on a lot and being deliberate about where I choose to maintain my position"
W: "I don't see where you've compromised. And I haven't held my position on a single thing."
Me: "We have very different perspectives on this. Just so I make sure I heard you correctly, you feel as if you have compromised on every issue and I have compromised on no issues. Is that right?, I'm clear, are you saying that you don't see a single place I've compromised since beginning mediation?"
W: "You aren't home are you?"
Me: "No"
[END: I was out with a couple of friends for drinks and then dinner]



I was going to post the same thing. Filter yourself. It is all about listening skills right now.




It is amazing to me that those text message could have been written by my X. Exact same type of communication style. Things are better after 10 years, but....




My latest:
X:"I've switched jobs and have the opportunity to add the kids to my health and dental plan at your expense. Your monthly expense would be BLA BLA.. this would be effective sept 1. Do you want me to sign them up under my plan?? I NEED TO KNOW BY TOMORROW MORNING."
ME:(6 hours later..I was packing for this trip):"When you don't share the details it is hard to compare to the current plan...don't sign them up"
X:"Fine - what other details do you need? Also, DO THEY HAVE DENTAL INSURANCE?? Both I and orthodontist have been ask this for the past year without an answer..."
Me:"I sent you a copy of the medical card on July 10 2018. They do have dental coverage...As I have told you before, ortho is not covered by the plan...."
ME:"sent you an email" [the email had attachments to over view of what was covered by my plans. I asked her to send me copies of her plan overview so we both could review] (Crickets from her)

I ran through the same exercise when I was getting the new plans setup with my employer. I asked for copies of her current plan and she responds "It is not very good" no details.



I guess my point is that communication is always hard, people get confused. Even worse when emotions are involved. Learn as many communication skills right now with W. You drive the change in communication style. You help reduce the confusion. You listen to understand. You take time to think about what the other person said.

I am not saying you agree to anything. You just let her know that you heard her.

W:"Bla bla bla bla bla bla bla"
H:"If I understand correctly. you feel angry about BLA BLA BLA?
W:"NO.>>Bla bla bla bla bla"
H:"Ah that helps. thanks for clarifying"
W:"Well, what are you going to do???"
H:"I need time to think about what you said. I will let you when I decide"
W:"Bla bla bla answer right now bla bla you never bla bla bla controling bla bla"
H:"I am sorry you feel that way"
Posted By: crdcheck

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/02/19 03:29 PM

I hear you both and it's consistent with the books, other threads, etc., so I know that you are right. It's a struggle for me because it feels so much like a broken record (and it annoys W) when I say "I'm sorry you feel that way". Maybe it's just me holding out for some ridiculous hope that I can get her to see that, bad as the things I did are, as much damage as I caused, I'm not a demon. It feels like, the more I've pulled away, the more she has, too, and I don't see how that ultimately brings us back together.

For example, I emailed her yesterday morning during our usual "activities exchange" (where one of us, usually me, sends an email outlining when we will be busy so we can plan out D3's days) and said that I would be out yesterday evening but that I would stop home first to feed/walk the dog (D3 is w/ ILs so no burden on W with my leaving) and she was upset that I hadn't told her and that she had planned to go through the kitchen cabinets/drawers with me. I told her that I was telling her right then and she could propose a time to go through the kitchen together (she proposed tonight). I have no regrets - I went to tour a house and then ate dinner with my brother and his family while W ate home alone. What gives me heartburn is that I know that this feeds into her negative narrative about me. On the other hand, if I had apologized and/or done the kitchen thing with her would I/we/D3 be in a better position? Would W think better of me? (No)

One other question/thought I have. I understand not pursuing her, even implicitly, but I feel like there may be value in my sharing my perspective at appropriate times. For example, when she's blaming me for her anxiety, not moving forward with the divorce fast enough, etc., it seems like it could be a reasonable time to say that this is her choice just as the cheating was my choice. Sure, I was unhappy and alone, W hadn't been intimate with me in any way in 3-4 months and, even after we were again, I would have to practically beg, but that does not in any way justify my decision to cheat, period. And as far as I'm concerned, the D is the same - it's her choice, it presents great risk to everyone, and my proposition was not to maintain the status quo but to try a different approach (different MC, etc.), trial separation, anything but D and she completely rejected it, no consideration whatsoever. I had a choice and made a bad one, that's on me. She's making a choice and I feel that she should be aware if for no other reason than, in six months (or whenever) she can't say "well, we both wanted this." I mean, I'm having fun, multiple trips pre-planned, taking new classes, getting 50/50 time w/ D3 (and I can spend it as I see fit - no more negotiating) - it would be easy to look at me and say that I'm happy about all of this. I want her to know that this is all her choice.

Finally, and I think that I know the answer to this, but I haven't been intimate with her (or anyone) since at least a week before she announced the D (early May). Part of me looks at her pulling away as quickly as possible (no ring, think she changed her name in her work email signature, not including me in family trip to IL) and says "hey, it's been months, I have needs, I should date someone" and another part says that it would not be a nail in the coffin but a sledgehammer in the stake and I should hold off until Sept...Oct... Nov... whenever the paperwork is signed by the judge. Thoughts?
Posted By: crdcheck

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/02/19 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by Ready2Change

It is amazing to me that those text message could have been written by my X. Exact same type of communication style. Things are better after 10 years, but....

Good to know that I'm not blazing a new path. Too bad that I have this to look forward to for the rest of my life (or at least D3's childhood).
Originally Posted by Ready2Change

My latest:
X:"I've switched jobs and have the opportunity to add the kids to my health and dental plan at your expense. Your monthly expense would be BLA BLA.. this would be effective sept 1. Do you want me to sign them up under my plan?? I NEED TO KNOW BY TOMORROW MORNING."
ME:(6 hours later..I was packing for this trip):"When you don't share the details it is hard to compare to the current plan...don't sign them up"
...

Yep, this resonates. Wonder how they don't see how s****y they are being.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change

I guess my point is that communication is always hard, people get confused. Even worse when emotions are involved. Learn as many communication skills right now with W. You drive the change in communication style. You help reduce the confusion. You listen to understand. You take time to think about what the other person said.

Do you have any specific sources (e.g. books, websites) I should look at for this? I get the basics but they feel repetitive, like I'm turning into a robot.
Originally Posted by Ready2Change

I am not saying you agree to anything. You just let her know that you heard her.

W:"Bla bla bla bla bla bla bla"
H:"If I understand correctly. you feel angry about BLA BLA BLA?
W:"NO.>>Bla bla bla bla bla"
H:"Ah that helps. thanks for clarifying"
W:"Well, what are you going to do???"
H:"I need time to think about what you said. I will let you when I decide"
W:"Bla bla bla answer right now bla bla you never bla bla bla controling bla bla"
H:"I am sorry you feel that way"

This made me laugh out loud - you hit it exactly. I am doing a better (but still have a ways to go) job of not deciding things on the spot, taking time to digest, make deliberate decisions, choose how to respond later etc., but as long as I don't agree with W I'm the a**hole. I wish that my being the bigger person would wear down the wall she has between us but I don't have high hopes and the a**hole in me (he's there, I know it) wants to push her buttons sometimes. Like, you are making me feel bad and don't care (has said so explicitly) so turn about is fair play. I know that it's wrong and I try to keep that part of me in check but I'd be lying if I said that I wasn't thinking about it.
Posted By: Ready2Change

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/02/19 09:14 PM

Originally Posted by crdcheck
but as long as I don't agree with W I'm the a**hole.
I already have that nickname..you need to have your W pick a different one...


Everytime she called me that in an email, She became sweetheart..
Posted By: crdcheck

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/02/19 09:49 PM

Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Originally Posted by crdcheck
but as long as I don't agree with W I'm the a**hole.
I already have that nickname..you need to have your W pick a different one...


Everytime she called me that in an email, She became sweetheart..

Ha! Actually, we don't do any name-calling. In fact, there really isn't any overt anger (no yelling, swearing, etc.) at all. Maybe I shouldn't have said "a**hole" since it's actually "narcissistic selfish jerk who only thinks and cares about himself". But she really doesn't say that, she just says that I don't compromise at all which would be the behavior associated with... well, both the "narcissistic selfish..." and "a**holes" haha.

In a way, it feels worse - like, we're so fine with each other that it doesn't feel like we're about to fall apart, and I also have to keep questioning whether she's right, are my motives pure? If she was ranting like a lunatic then it's easier to write her off.
Posted By: crdcheck

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/05/19 02:02 PM

Heard from W that she's moving out a week from tomorrow while D3 is with my parents in my hometown (all week). She's started packing stuff (e.g. wedding China, half of kitchen stuff). It gives me fear to see it and I want to snoop ("what's she taking? where's she going?") which I have to tamp down.

Still haven't said anything to D3, not sure what W's plan is on this.

GAL is going well: I've applied to a local university for a certificate program and registered for a few workout classes. Went out with my brother Sat night. Fri was stuck dividing stuff up in the kitchen, Sun ended up having to work remotely. So, not exactly being a lighthouse in terms of fun but getting what I needed to done. Spent all afternoon on Sat at the pool w/ D3, had a great time. Sun was house hunting.

Question: W wants me to pay for half of the dog's expenses and I love the animal but it doesn't feel fair for me to pay for a dog I won't get to see. I know that my parents would take the dog and I would be able to see her more (and not have to pay, not that the money is a big deal) - how have others handled pets? FYI it's like $400/month w/ dog walkers, vet, food, etc. so not nothing.
Posted By: Destroyd

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/05/19 02:51 PM

If she is going to keep the dog, then no way should you pay any of the expenses.
Posted By: Steve85

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/05/19 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by crdcheck
Heard from W that she's moving out a week from tomorrow while D3 is with my parents in my hometown (all week). She's started packing stuff (e.g. wedding China, half of kitchen stuff). It gives me fear to see it and I want to snoop ("what's she taking? where's she going?") which I have to tamp down.

Still haven't said anything to D3, not sure what W's plan is on this.

GAL is going well: I've applied to a local university for a certificate program and registered for a few workout classes. Went out with my brother Sat night. Fri was stuck dividing stuff up in the kitchen, Sun ended up having to work remotely. So, not exactly being a lighthouse in terms of fun but getting what I needed to done. Spent all afternoon on Sat at the pool w/ D3, had a great time. Sun was house hunting.

Question: W wants me to pay for half of the dog's expenses and I love the animal but it doesn't feel fair for me to pay for a dog I won't get to see. I know that my parents would take the dog and I would be able to see her more (and not have to pay, not that the money is a big deal) - how have others handled pets? FYI it's like $400/month w/ dog walkers, vet, food, etc. so not nothing.


Agree with Destroyd, unless you get 50% custody of the dog, no way should you pay.

Don't snoop. Stuff isn't worth it. Bickering over plates and forks will limit your chances to R down the road if that is something you still want. Remember, lots of people have separated and/or D'd, and still R'd later. So there is always hope.
Posted By: crdcheck

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/05/19 06:32 PM

Thanks, guys. I'm trying to find the right balance between not bickering and being assertive. Prior to finding DR and this site I would have given in on everything as an apology for my bad behavior, hope to prove my good-ness to her. I'm not digging in just to dig in or coming up with weird hypotheticals to push her buttons but she sees any view not aligned with her own to be me refusing to compromise.

Onto the dog, she offered shared custody but that seems like a huge pain - D3 will be exchanged at school (in theory W and I won't ever see the others' place) so dog would be separate, we won't be living close to each other and the dog needs a walk during the day so multiple dog walkers. I'm definitely open to taking the dog when W goes on vacation but every other day etc. seems really time-consuming. If I were single I wouldn't have gotten a dog so I don't really want to be the full-time dog dad. I know my parents would take the dog (and treat her better than we do) so... yeah, I can see why W would not like what I'm suggesting but it also seems like this is part of divorce - we aren't on a team anymore.

I saw on another thread that someone was saying that women don't move out for space, they move out to be with someone else. Wondering if that is the deal here... I mean, it doesn't really matter but would help me to understand her rush.

Side note, while I was out with my brother looking at homes yesterday W called from some store to ask if I wanted her to pick up kitchen utensil holders. Brother said that's the nicest he's ever heard her speak to me. Weird times - she hates me, she's nice to me, she's cold to me... etc.
Posted By: Steve85

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/05/19 06:54 PM

Originally Posted by crdcheck
I saw on another thread that someone was saying that women don't move out for space, they move out to be with someone else. Wondering if that is the deal here... I mean, it doesn't really matter but would help me to understand her rush.


That's me, though I have to admit to poaching from another anti-divorce author (not MWD). And if you think about it, it makes sense. Most wives that move out are in one of three camps:

1. In an active affair
2. Want to find someone new to start sleeping with ASAP
3. Want to get a separation and D to eventually meet someone new

There is a rare 4th camp where they really just don't like being married or being with someone at all and therefore are leaving just to be on their own, but I would argue this constitutes less than 1% of WAWs.

So no matter if it is 1-3, essentially she is leaving to be able to sleep with someone else.
Posted By: SteveS

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/05/19 08:01 PM

Originally Posted by crdcheck
I saw on another thread that someone was saying that women don't move out for space, they move out to be with someone else. Wondering if that is the deal here... I mean, it doesn't really matter but would help me to understand her rush.


I know the other Steve feels strongly about this, but I disagree. I do agree it's in *most* cases (and that's certainly borne itself out on here), but not all, and IMO, not mine.

I'm paraphrasing, but here is what WAW told me w/r/t reasoning:
"It hasn't been working, we both know that. We love each other, but we haven't been communicating well, and we haven't been partners the way that I'd like us to be. Coming home with the elephant in the room has been so tough, and I don't know how to fix it right now. But what we're doing right now isn't working, and we have to try something new or else we both know where this is headed. I think we should separate, give each other some space, and continue going to MC."

I have no evidence of EA/PA, and plenty of evidence of WAW not giving up: going to MC, going to her IC, and so on. When I set a boundary at MC around not accepting being a Plan B, and expressed that I was not interested in dating while I worked on myself, she said that for her, dating was the furthest thing from her mind.

So obviously your mileage may very, and to be clear, S is absolutely not what I would have chosen as the route of action for WAW and I. But I do think in an obvious way it was a very clear wake-up call, and a lever that I would not have been strong enough to pull myself.

Maybe I'm a rare case. Or maybe I'm in denial, and my WAW is stringing me along. Time will tell.
Posted By: crdcheck

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/05/19 08:11 PM

Thanks, guys - appreciate the individual viewpoints. Truth is, it doesn't bother me if she wants to hook up with someone and, even if it did, I would hardly be in the position to judge. I'm probably wrapped up on it because it's so confusing to me that we can be so friendly one moment, then she's accusing me of being toxic the next, then "hey, you'll still be invited to my family events", then... it would be a lot easier to know that she's found someone else.

Also, selfishly, if I knew that she was it would make it easier for me to go out and date, too. Deep down, I think that it's "camp 3" - she definitely wants to meet someone else (she's said so herself) but she also said that she didn't want to rush - doesn't like the expectation that sex happens early in relationships, etc. But she's also texting non-stop (no idea who it is) and is really close with various colleagues. I should really just ignore it. I mean, movers come for her stuff a week from tomorrow so it doesn't matter at that point, though, again, knowing would help me to decide if I should be chaste through the ink on the page (up to three months) or not.
Posted By: Steve85

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/05/19 09:41 PM

Originally Posted by SteveS
Originally Posted by crdcheck
I saw on another thread that someone was saying that women don't move out for space, they move out to be with someone else. Wondering if that is the deal here... I mean, it doesn't really matter but would help me to understand her rush.


I know the other Steve feels strongly about this, but I disagree. I do agree it's in *most* cases (and that's certainly borne itself out on here), but not all, and IMO, not mine.

I'm paraphrasing, but here is what WAW told me w/r/t reasoning:
"It hasn't been working, we both know that. We love each other, but we haven't been communicating well, and we haven't been partners the way that I'd like us to be. Coming home with the elephant in the room has been so tough, and I don't know how to fix it right now. But what we're doing right now isn't working, and we have to try something new or else we both know where this is headed. I think we should separate, give each other some space, and continue going to MC."

I have no evidence of EA/PA, and plenty of evidence of WAW not giving up: going to MC, going to her IC, and so on. When I set a boundary at MC around not accepting being a Plan B, and expressed that I was not interested in dating while I worked on myself, she said that for her, dating was the furthest thing from her mind.

So obviously your mileage may very, and to be clear, S is absolutely not what I would have chosen as the route of action for WAW and I. But I do think in an obvious way it was a very clear wake-up call, and a lever that I would not have been strong enough to pull myself.

Maybe I'm a rare case. Or maybe I'm in denial, and my WAW is stringing me along. Time will tell.



Your wife is category #3
Posted By: crdcheck

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/06/19 06:34 PM

I'm honestly not sure which category W is in - it could be any. I mean, she's said that she's going to take some time for herself before getting into the dating pool and that she has worries about the expectation of sex early in relationships but, on the other hand, she's running out of the door, signed a lease without joint agreement (since her expectation was that I would pay for half her rent plus half of our mortgage). She's super concerned about money (like, researching price differences on $40 items) so, for her to overcome the worries about money (rent being $2k/month which she's fully on the hook for since I refused to pay for her to leave) would seem like it would take a lot. We aren't fighting, no raised voices, and we each have our own space in house. So, what is driving the rush? Scenarios 1 and 2 make the most sense for that but are contrary to her statements a month or two ago.

Anyway, guess it really doesn't matter. On Sunday D3 goes to my parents' for a week, when she comes back we'll be in different houses. Why W is acting in contradictory ways is academic at this point. In terms of what makes an R more likely I can make a case both ways - for all of her hatred of me there's a lot she takes for granted, so getting together could be enlightening for her (after some period of time - I know first-hand how great the early parts of relationships are). On the other hand, her sitting alone at night could also be enlightening. Anyone have any experience one way or the other?

Last night, I got home and asked her if she was going out. She said "no" so I immediately said "great, I'll head out after we put D3 to bed" and then walked off. She called after me and sort of sputtered "well, wait, I mean, when will you be home?" and I told her that I wasn't sure, did she need something? She seemed confused, felt like she wanted to know what I was up to but couldn't think about how to ask. Anyway, took a second look at another house and then met up with a friend (male, good influence on me). Not sure if she's intrigued about what I'm doing or worried that I'm cheating - not sure that it really makes a difference either way. But I'm keeping up with my GAL so I feel good about that.

Speaking of GAL, I got accepted into a local university's certificate program - doesn't do anything for me professionally but would be really neat from a personal growth perspective. Have to figure out the cost but still a step in the right direction.
Posted By: Steve85

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/06/19 06:44 PM

Originally Posted by crdcheck
Anyway, guess it really doesn't matter. On Sunday D3 goes to my parents' for a week, when she comes back we'll be in different houses. Why W is acting in contradictory ways is academic at this point. In terms of what makes an R more likely I can make a case both ways - for all of her hatred of me there's a lot she takes for granted, so getting together could be enlightening for her (after some period of time - I know first-hand how great the early parts of relationships are). On the other hand, her sitting alone at night could also be enlightening. Anyone have any experience one way or the other?


Can you clear up what you are asking her? Are you asking if you two should be together as a family when D comes home?

If so: No. She fired you as her H. Stop acting like a H to her.

If not, please expound.
Posted By: AnotherStander

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/06/19 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by crdcheck
On the other hand, her sitting alone at night could also be enlightening. Anyone have any experience one way or the other?


A lot of LBS's cling to the hope that in separation the WAS will quickly have some kind of awakening and miss them and want to recon. It does happen sometimes, but honestly it's pretty unusual. WAS's usually love being out on their own at first. They really embrace it. They buy all kind of nick knacks to set up their new place, they double down on going out with their enablers, etc. It's all new and exciting and will be for months and months. In the long run who knows, they may continue to embrace the single life, they may settle down with an OM, or they may learn to miss the LBS and start temp checking. But in the short term I wouldn't expect it to be a big revelation for her.
Posted By: crdcheck

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/07/19 07:30 PM

So, why are we here, then? I mean, I am not going to cling to hope, waiting every night for the text that will never come, but if WASs don't come back then is that just a divorce that can't be "busted"? I get it that it varies but am I looking at a 1/10 chance or a 1/3? And is there anything I can do to improve those chances?

Frankly, at this point I'm looking forward to my single future in just about every way. As mentioned in previous posts, I owe a lot to GAL - I've gotten back in touch with old friends, made new ones, taken on new classes, and so on - I feel better, more in control of myself. While I am still ashamed of what I did and the pain I caused W, and would be willing to do whatever it takes to rebuild trust, I can now also look at her and say "your loss". The one area that breaks my heart is D3 and the idea that she won't have the "family" that she did. I recognize that she will still grow to be an amazing person but she loves both of us and she loves spending time as a family. I hate that that is going away.

All that to say, I'd love to put us in a position where we can R but not at the expense of myself as an individual. If there is virtually no chance of an R then, well, I guess that's less stress on me.
Posted By: LH19

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/07/19 07:50 PM

CC,

There is definitely a chance for reconciliation but it痴 probably not on the time line you池e expecting. It痴 rare that WW changes her stance prior to D. It happens but there are typically special circumstances.
Posted By: crdcheck

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/07/19 08:03 PM

Oh, I've given the wrong impression - there is virtually no way shape or form that the divorce does not go through. I can see a slight chance that, after we finish mediation, she decides to hold off on submitting the paperwork, opting for a firm separation, but that's extremely unlikely. If there is an R attempt it will take months at least from when the divorce is finalized.

My question is, once it's finalized and I'm detached, doing my own thing, living my own life, etc., is there anything to do/not do to improve the odds of her seeking an R?
Posted By: LH19

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/07/19 08:22 PM

Live your life to the fullest and keep the road home paved smooth. That痴 really all you can do. Some WW want to be friends. I would decline that offer if you ever want to reconcile in the future. There may come a time you choose that option when you have completely moved on.
Posted By: crdcheck

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/11/19 01:24 AM

I think that I just caught W sending nudes to someone. Came home from a baseball game with D3 and when I got into the living room W was in her bra with her phone out, saw me, stood up, and put her shirt on. First reaction was that she was trying clothes on but there were no clothes nearby. So much for waiting until we are divorced...

Wonder who it is? Coworker?

Do I say anything (kind of want to ask her if it was hot in the house while I was gone) or not?
Posted By: Sunset3

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/11/19 03:36 AM

Don't say anything or ask, she will just get p!sed off and lie. If you need to know and want to go down the snooping path, check the phone records if you want the truth.
Posted By: unchien

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/11/19 03:39 AM

Originally Posted by crdcheck

Wonder who it is? Coworker?

Stop wondering. Think detachment.

Originally Posted by crdcheck
Do I say anything (kind of want to ask her if it was hot in the house while I was gone) or not?

What do you stand to gain?

Asking her if it was hot in the house sounds passive-aggressive to me.

Being more direct with her about it is unlikely to change the behavior (she will just go underground), and will also signal to her that you are attached and she can still jerk you around whenever she wants.
Posted By: crdcheck

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/12/19 02:53 AM

I didn't say anything. I knew that there was no upside to it. Part of me is angry about the hypocrisy and another part also wants an excuse to see someone else, to not be rejected. It's been four months and, while I'm doing better than I was at the beginning in some ways, in others I am jealous of her ability to completely move on. I feel like I have to be on my best behavior through the absolute end (ink on paper). I'm still wearing my ring. I still leave my phone unlocked. I'm still not doing anything that would be risky. These are all actions I took to help rebuild trust back in October and, by stopping them, I would be proving that I couldn't follow through. But I'd really like to be done with them.

Tonight is really tough. W has movers coming Tues but, with D3 out of the house this week (she is with my parents since there is no school or camp this week) my in-laws are here helping W move. I came home from house hunting and hanging out with my brother all day to find my FIL in the half-packed living room, barely willing to look at me (so much for "always being part of the family", how quick that changes), decorations and pictures taken down, and yeah, it hurts. Not the stuff, but the finality of it. I just can't believe it - I changed so much (objectively - new job, home every day, helping with everything) and she can just march off. I feel really lost. I guess that it goes to the above, too, because I feel like I need someone to want me. I haven't had that from W in years but thought that she was happy and I could take care of myself. Now that I'd given up on old ways I thought that she'd be there for me. And not only is she not there, she's running away.

On a positive note, the first moments are usually the first with me, and this one isn't as bad as the others (seeing the "for sale" sign in the yard). So, hopefully this is just another valley and then I'll be climbing back out tomorrow.

Few random thoughts/questions:

1) What do I do/say about pictures of us? I don't want W to throw them out but I don't want to look needy
2) I'm all about GALing but I'm also tired of being out all the time. How much "hang out" time is reasonable?
3) Is continuing to wear my ring a sign of pursuit?
4) How much should I talk to W going forward? This detaching thing really seems like it's getting frosty. Our chances will be very limited once she moves out and especially once we start our custody arrangement. If she says nothing to me do I just ignore her?
5) How should I act around W and her in-laws? I don't plan to see them much but they will come to D3's birthday party in Sept and, because it's my weekend with D3, I'm hosting. I don't want to keep anyone from D3 (she loves them) but I also don't want to be receiving the chill from my FIL

All in all I'm worried that by DBing is playing into her narrative - that all I care about is myself (me being assertive) and that I just want to go out (hanging with my brother, etc.). Even working out is probably seen as me just trying to look good.
Posted By: Ready2Change

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/12/19 04:25 PM


Take possession of all the pictures you want. If she wants any, she will ask you for the ones she wants.

I have my wedding album. I gave it to my father for safe keeping while I was getting divorced.
Posted By: unchien

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/12/19 05:18 PM

Originally Posted by crdcheck
Few random thoughts/questions:

3) Is continuing to wear my ring a sign of pursuit?

4) How much should I talk to W going forward? This detaching thing really seems like it's getting frosty. Our chances will be very limited once she moves out and especially once we start our custody arrangement. If she says nothing to me do I just ignore her?

5) How should I act around W and her in-laws? I don't plan to see them much but they will come to D3's birthday party in Sept and, because it's my weekend with D3, I'm hosting. I don't want to keep anyone from D3 (she loves them) but I also don't want to be receiving the chill from my FIL

All in all I'm worried that by DBing is playing into her narrative - that all I care about is myself (me being assertive) and that I just want to go out (hanging with my brother, etc.). Even working out is probably seen as me just trying to look good.

4. Yep, it gets frosty. Do you have any plans to meet or talk once she moves out, if only to share how D3 is doing?

5. You can't avoid the FIL chill. Fake it 'til you make it... do the friendly neighbor thing. You'll have another 15 years+ of periodic interactions with the IL's - birthdays, graduations, etc.

Finally... DB'ing absolutely plays into the WAW narrative. But so does not DB'ing. Anything you do or don't do will play into the narrative. A saying I like for this situation is "You're d@mned if you do, d@mned if you don't, so do what you want."

With GAL, I think at first it feels completely forced or faked. After awhile hopefully you settle into the things you really like to do, the ones that connect you with your inner vitality and make you feel whole.
Posted By: crdcheck

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/12/19 06:23 PM

Originally Posted by Ready2Change

Take possession of all the pictures you want. If she wants any, she will ask you for the ones she wants.

Yeah, I should just put them away. I guess it feels like I'm just doing it as a form of pursuit. I mean, it's not like I've looked at them in the past. I'm not a super sentimental guy. And if I'm honest with myself (and you all) it's because I'm hoping that we R in the future. I mean, what will I do with them in 10 years if I've met someone else?
Posted By: crdcheck

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/12/19 06:37 PM

Originally Posted by unchien

4. Yep, it gets frosty. Do you have any plans to meet or talk once she moves out, if only to share how D3 is doing?

Not yet. Trying to take things day by day and that seems like a couple of weeks out. Some books seem to say that the interactions forced by having children in the mix give opportunity to R. I see that, but I also see her seeking info that confirms her beliefs (e.g. if she's asking about who I'm hanging out with).
Originally Posted by unchien

5. You can't avoid the FIL chill. Fake it 'til you make it... do the friendly neighbor thing. You'll have another 15 years+ of periodic interactions with the IL's - birthdays, graduations, etc.

Yep, just disappointing. I really laid myself out to him (and my MIL), the good, the bad, the ugly. No excuses, no begging. They'd said that they feel like I'm a son. All I wanted from them was to take a balanced view, help us to navigate our relationship, whatever form it would be. I'm starting to see some of my W in my FIL - claims to be above everything but is clearly as in the mud as anyone else. Part of me wants to say that, if he can't play nice then he's not welcome at events I'm hosting. I'm not asking to be friends but he's essentially refusing to acknowledge my existence then he's not welcome in my home.
Originally Posted by unchien

Finally... DB'ing absolutely plays into the WAW narrative. But so does not DB'ing. Anything you do or don't do will play into the narrative. A saying I like for this situation is "You're d@mned if you do, d@mned if you don't, so do what you want."

I know, you are right. I'd say that I'm looking for confirmation. I read on other threads about WAWs who clearly have regrets but are too proud to say it, to want to work on R. I want to make sure that I'm keeping the "path paved" to quote someone.
Originally Posted by unchien

With GAL, I think at first it feels completely forced or faked. After awhile hopefully you settle into the things you really like to do, the ones that connect you with your inner vitality and make you feel whole.

Honestly, I'm straight up exhausted. Stress from D, stress from figuring out what is right for D3 vs. what feels fair (trying to keep an eye on my bias), 7+ open houses per weekend, negotiating on one house, trying to clear out all of the inspection items from the current house, figuring out what replacement items I need to buy (where's the kitchen scale?), making sure that my plans don't impact D3 (until custody plan in place we are organizing on an hour by hour basis), determining what to share with whom (don't want to whine non-stop), dealing with a new project at work, and not sleeping well (waking up stuck thinking about W). Honestly, I just want to come home a night or two, heat up a pizza, and watch some TV. I'm meeting up with people 7 days/week and it takes a lot out of me (I'm a natural introvert).

Another question re: D3 - if she wants something that I don't, how do I decide what to do? For example, as someone pointed out earlier, I am going to miss our time as a family more than my time w/ W, and if D3 wants all of us to go to the pool together part of me likes the idea and wants to do what D3 wants. Another part of me sees this as cake eating for my W, that she shouldn't get the benefits of an H unless she is being a W. Where do I draw the line?
Posted By: AnotherStander

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/12/19 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by crdcheck
Part of me is angry about the hypocrisy


Very sorry you have to go through all of this. If your W had a shred of decency then she would have felt shame and humiliation when you walked on in her standing there in her bra with phone in hand. Did she feel that way? Who knows. But it's not worth your time to dwell on. In your W's eyes the two of you are already divorced, so she thinks she is free to start her GGW lifestyle. As the others said, confronting her about it is just wasted effort on your part. She's going to do what she's going to do no matter what you say.

Quote
1) What do I do/say about pictures of us? I don't want W to throw them out but I don't want to look needy


Ask her if she wants them. I would be blown away if she does, but it's the polite thing to do. If she says no then take them. If she asks what you're doing with them just tell her it's not her concern since she doesn't want them.

Quote
2) I'm all about GALing but I'm also tired of being out all the time. How much "hang out" time is reasonable?


The idea of GAL is to get your mind off of things. Occupy yourself. It's good to get out of the house but you don't HAVE to. I took up building models and R/C planes, I had my own area set up in the house for that. I mean I did a lot of out-of-the-house GAL as well, but it wasn't all one or the other, it was a mix.

Quote
3) Is continuing to wear my ring a sign of pursuit?


No. It's your choice. A lot of people continue to wear their ring while standing.

Quote
4) How much should I talk to W going forward? This detaching thing really seems like it's getting frosty. Our chances will be very limited once she moves out and especially once we start our custody arrangement. If she says nothing to me do I just ignore her?


Not initiating contact is NOT ignoring her. If she doesn't contact you then there's a 99.9% chance it's because she doesn't want to talk to you OR hear from you. So leave her be. If she pings you then go ahead and reply, but don't get drawn into long convos. As far as detaching getting frosty, read Sandi's rules. Use those are your guidelines for how to behave. It is not at all about being cold and indifferent, it's just giving her space but being polite and businesslike when you're around her.

Quote
5) How should I act around W and her in-laws? I don't plan to see them much but they will come to D3's birthday party in Sept and, because it's my weekend with D3, I'm hosting. I don't want to keep anyone from D3 (she loves them) but I also don't want to be receiving the chill from my FIL


Be warm and friendly to them. NO R TALKS AT ALL though. If they open that door then quickly and politely close it in their face.

Quote
All in all I'm worried that by DBing is playing into her narrative - that all I care about is myself (me being assertive) and that I just want to go out (hanging with my brother, etc.). Even working out is probably seen as me just trying to look good.


You'll learn to quit worrying about what they think. It quite honestly doesn't matter one bit. What they think is no reflection on who you are, and what they think does not factor into your W's decisions one bit. They have two choices as parents- support her decisions or try to talk some sense into her. If they choose the former they will continue to have a relationship with her. If they choose the latter she will likely cut them out of her life. So OF COURSE they are going to choose the former. That's no reflection on you, that's just what parents do.
Posted By: AnotherStander

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/12/19 07:34 PM

Originally Posted by crdcheck
Yep, just disappointing. I really laid myself out to him (and my MIL), the good, the bad, the ugly.


Well that's on you. You should absolutely not have done that. Now if you're embarrassed about it, well that's one of the reasons you shouldn't have done it. Don't blame FIL, blame yourself for that.

Quote
They'd said that they feel like I'm a son. All I wanted from them was to take a balanced view, help us to navigate our relationship, whatever form it would be.


They are W's parents, not yours. You can bet they hate being in this awkward position, they wish they could support you but they can't without potentially alienating their D.

Quote
Part of me wants to say that, if he can't play nice then he's not welcome at events I'm hosting. I'm not asking to be friends but he's essentially refusing to acknowledge my existence then he's not welcome in my home.


You do that then you are basically confirming to them that you are a jerk not deserving of their support or their D. TAKE THE MORAL HIGH ROAD. Always conduct yourself with dignity and respect, no matter what. People will have no choice but to respect you if you can stick to that. This "revenge" attitude has got to go, in the end it will hurt you more than anyone else.

Quote
Honestly, I just want to come home a night or two, heat up a pizza, and watch some TV. I'm meeting up with people 7 days/week and it takes a lot out of me (I'm a natural introvert).


Then dial it back. No one said you have to be out of the house every day!

Quote
Another question re: D3 - if she wants something that I don't, how do I decide what to do? For example, as someone pointed out earlier, I am going to miss our time as a family more than my time w/ W, and if D3 wants all of us to go to the pool together part of me likes the idea and wants to do what D3 wants. Another part of me sees this as cake eating for my W, that she shouldn't get the benefits of an H unless she is being a W. Where do I draw the line?


My opinion is if the request is well and truly coming from D then do it. But don't make it contingent on your W being there. For example, this would be pursuit:

You- W, how would you like to go to the pool? D will be there, I thought it would be nice.
W- No thanks.
You- Oh (pouts, doesn't go)

This is not pursuit:

You- W, D and I are going to the pool and she asked me to invite you. You are welcome to join if you wish.
W- No thanks.
You- OK, no problem. (goes to pool with D).

Do you understand the difference? Michele addresses this in DR. It's OK to ask her along if you're doing something with D, as long as you go whether W goes or not.
Posted By: crdcheck

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/12/19 09:13 PM

Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Originally Posted by crdcheck
Yep, just disappointing. I really laid myself out to him (and my MIL), the good, the bad, the ugly.


Well that's on you. You should absolutely not have done that. Now if you're embarrassed about it, well that's one of the reasons you shouldn't have done it. Don't blame FIL, blame yourself for that.

I don't blame anyone and I'm not mad that he's taken her side, I'm frustrated that they all take this holier than thou stance but are blind to their own actions. Whatever, there's a reason it's in the book to not talk to in-laws, etc., and you are right that I shouldn't have
Originally Posted by AnotherStander

They are W's parents, not yours. You can bet they hate being in this awkward position, they wish they could support you but they can't without potentially alienating their D.

And I'd be fine if all they did was validate me ("yeah, that [censored]"). MIL is fine to me, FIL was fine even a few weeks ago (didn't mind that I took one of his other grandkids out for the day with D3 while he, W, and MIL went shopping for W's new place). Hypocrisy hits a nerve with me.
Originally Posted by AnotherStander

Quote
Part of me wants to say that, if he can't play nice then he's not welcome at events I'm hosting. I'm not asking to be friends but he's essentially refusing to acknowledge my existence then he's not welcome in my home.


You do that then you are basically confirming to them that you are a jerk not deserving of their support or their D. TAKE THE MORAL HIGH ROAD. Always conduct yourself with dignity and respect, no matter what. People will have no choice but to respect you if you can stick to that. This "revenge" attitude has got to go, in the end it will hurt you more than anyone else.

Hear you loud and clear. I was seeing it more as excising some bad vibes from my life but I can see how it would be seen as a sort of revenge thing.
Originally Posted by AnotherStander

Then dial it back. No one said you have to be out of the house every day!

Thanks for the advice. I may have been overcoming my bias to maintain a friend-like relationship with W and also be a bit of a lump. I mean, I do a lot and wanted to spend as much time as possible with D3 but it adds up. I think that it will be easier with W not home. No more coordination...
Originally Posted by AnotherStander

My opinion is if the request is well and truly coming from D then do it. But don't make it contingent on your W being there.

Makes sense. I'm not sure how this all plays out. D3 is definitely more mommy-oriented than daddy so it may feel kind of one-sided (D3 wants to include mom when she's with me, doesn't mention me when she's with mom). And one thing I'm looking forward to is not having W standing over my shoulder all the time (plus D3 regularly demanding to spend 1:1 time w/ W rather than time as a family or just me).

I do agree 100% with the idea that it will be "hey, I'm doing X, you are welcome to join" and then going (and enjoying time w/ D3) regardless. I'm not doing anything just for W at this moment.

Thanks for the advice. Tough day, probably a tough week. That leads to over (and under) thinking. Looking forward to getting rid of some of the ambiguity so I can concentrate more on myself and my daughter.
Posted By: Steve85

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/13/19 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by crdcheck

I don't blame anyone and I'm not mad that he's taken her side


Originally Posted by crdcheck

And I'd be fine if all they did was validate me ("yeah, that [censored]"). MIL is fine to me, FIL was fine even a few weeks ago (didn't mind that I took one of his other grandkids out for the day with D3 while he, W, and MIL went shopping for W's new place). Hypocrisy hits a nerve with me.


I am not sure those two quotes square up.

crdcheck, what was your goal in talking to them? Were you hoping they'd come down on her for her choices? You had a a reason for telling them (everyone does things for a reason), so what were you hoping to achieve?


crd, the reason I think this is important is that self-reflection and being honest WITH YOURSELF, is paramount in moving forward happy and healthy. If you can't be honest with yourself, and I feel that you are making excuses here, then you will never improve to the point where you can be successful in your next R, whether with your W or someone new.
Posted By: crdcheck

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/13/19 04:07 PM

I told them everything because of a few reasons:

1) I wanted them to know that I knew that I betrayed her, that I was not diminishing my role in any way, that as their SIL I had violated her and their trust and I knew that I had to earn it back. I was (and am) owning my choices/mistakes
2) I wanted them to know that I had a plan I was following and had effectively followed 99% of the time (misses like occasionally forgetting to text when I left or arrived somewhere)
3) I wanted them to hear that there was another side to all of this and that it wasn't that mine is right and hers is wrong, that we both have taken grey items and made them black or white. Essentially, I wanted them to consider that I might not be a demon and help W to consider that some of her interpretations may be misaligned
4) Most importantly, I wanted them to help translate between us - that if W was really upset that I was late to an appointment and she felt that I didn't care about her (example) that they would help me to speak with her in a way that resonated

Please note that this was early after the divorce announcement, I'm not sure if I'd even heard of DBing at the time. I know that I was trying to be on my best behavior so, if I'd heard of it, I wasn't following it. I'm not speaking about R items with them now.
Posted By: Steve85

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/13/19 04:30 PM

crd, one thing about DBing, it applies to all relationships. Remember to have NO EXPECTATIONS related to your in-laws as well. I've even used DBing techniques with coworkers, especially listening and validating.
Posted By: crdcheck

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/13/19 06:38 PM

Yes, good point. I definitely have work to do on this. I'm hurt and rejected and, while I want to just switch off the emotions, I can't help but to feel betrayed and angry in my own way, and to want to just say what's on my mind even if it helps no one. I recognize this and work to overcome it (not always successfully). Thank you for the reinforcement.
Posted By: crdcheck

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/13/19 11:37 PM

Well, another milestone down this s*** road. Movers came today and all of her stuff is gone, half of our stuff, too. I get it, I need to detach. But I'm sorry, if I break all emotions then what's the point? I'm doing ok overall. W called me and left a VM about stuff she could have texted. I didn't respond (there was nothing I needed to say). I'm going over to my brother's to hang out now.

On a positive note, the house I wanted to buy I'll probably get. It's a really amazing place, D3 will have her own room (and then some). Nice neighborhood. Commute not so great but whatever. Proud moment was that I decided to reach out to the seller directly to meet up, get the agents out from the middle. We met up yesterday, had a couple of beers, talked through our priorities, and came up with an agreement that the agents codified.

So yeah, I'm in this empty house by myself, stuck with the whirlwind of emotions (exhaustion, fear, sadness, anger, bitterness, hope (for us to R), hope (for my solo future)... probably more). Really [censored].

Weird thing - my mom planned family photos for this Saturday pre-D announcement. I figured that W would not want to participate but I don't really care one way or another. My mom called to say that W would come if I didn't mind. Like, on what planet does it make sense for the leaver to want to be in the LBS's family photos??? Frankly, I don't care one way or another, I just don't get it.
Posted By: DejaVu6

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/13/19 11:48 PM

Ugh... I would tell my mom that I mind. Honestly...she opted out of the privilege. That痴 cake eating, IMO. Up to you though. (((HUGS)))
Posted By: unchien

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/14/19 05:32 AM

Originally Posted by crdcheck
Like, on what planet does it make sense for the leaver to want to be in the LBS's family photos??? Frankly, I don't care one way or another, I just don't get it.

Just make sure you put her on the end of the photos so you can crop her out.
Posted By: AnotherStander

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/14/19 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by crdcheck
But I'm sorry, if I break all emotions then what's the point?


Detaching does not mean you turn your feelings off. You are going to continue having feelings for a long time, maybe for the rest of your life. You're losing someone you loved and you're losing your home, that's a hell of a thing to go through. Own your feelings, let them happen. Grieve, cry, whatever it takes to process it. Just FYI I've been divorced for many years and we're going through an office remodel, I was going through my desk (which I haven't done this deeply in 15 years) and found a lot of old family photos. Pictures of XW and the kids at the beach, hiking, playing in the yard. Man that really hit me hard. I miss the wife I had back then, and I miss those wonderful little kids we were raising together. My kids are grown now and I love them to pieces, but I loved those little versions of them too and I loved being a dad and caring for those little kids, the little moments like corralling them into mom's van to take to lunch or the park or whatever. I miss that younger version of myself! They're great memories but they hurt too, it makes me sad. That's not to say I don't enjoy the life I have now, I really do. But it does make me sad sometimes that my life didn't stay on the married trajectory it was on.

Quote
On a positive note, the house I wanted to buy I'll probably get. It's a really amazing place, D3 will have her own room (and then some). Nice neighborhood.


Awesome! Good luck, hope it all works out on it!

Quote
Weird thing - my mom planned family photos for this Saturday pre-D announcement. I figured that W would not want to participate but I don't really care one way or another. My mom called to say that W would come if I didn't mind. Like, on what planet does it make sense for the leaver to want to be in the LBS's family photos??? Frankly, I don't care one way or another, I just don't get it.


That sounds exactly like things my XW did after S and D. I think she wanted to hold onto some piece of the old life. You can let her or you can shut it down, that's your choice. Personally I don't think it matters much one way or the other, it's really a question of how it affects you.
Posted By: crdcheck

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/14/19 01:32 PM

Thanks for the support. I feel like I've been doing all the DB stuff and am not seeing results so part of me wants to beg, cry, plead, etc. I won't - I understand that I came this way too late and that, with W's timeline, there was probably no chance no matter what. But still, part of me feels really desperate.

House is extra quiet and now echoing. She left a bunch of the wedding photos which now stand out since everything around them is gone. Even took my charging cable out of her car and left it on the counter (feels like she's saying "you won't be riding in my car anymore").

Have a lesson tonight, plans Fri, D3 most of the day Saturday, so there's plenty going on. It's just... yeah.
Posted By: AnotherStander

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/14/19 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by crdcheck
Thanks for the support. I feel like I've been doing all the DB stuff and am not seeing results so part of me wants to beg, cry, plead, etc.


DB'ing rarely stops separation from happening, so don't sweat that too much. Recons are very rare while under the same roof. So try to look at S as a necessary step towards future recon.

Quote
She left a bunch of the wedding photos which now stand out since everything around them is gone.


Box them up and put them away somewhere. It helps.

Quote
Even took my charging cable out of her car and left it on the counter (feels like she's saying "you won't be riding in my car anymore").


Yes, it's her way or severing all ties. She's got to go to these kind of extremes before she'll stat missing you and questioning what she's done.

Quote
Have a lesson tonight, plans Fri, D3 most of the day Saturday, so there's plenty going on. It's just... yeah.


Good, try to keep yourself busy!
Posted By: crdcheck

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/14/19 07:29 PM

Hey, thoughts on keeping the "road paved" back? Examples:

1) W texts me a funny pic of the dog randomly, says "can you believe she...?" - how do I respond?
2) W invites me in when dropping D3 off - do I accept?
3) W starts asking about my separation plans (e.g. "have you booked movers to go to your new house, yet?") - how do I respond?
4) W wants help with something (e.g. "I need to have some body work done on my car, is there a place you recommend?"
5) We are still sharing various accounts (Amazon, Netflix, etc.) - do I take her off once we separate finances? If it makes a difference I am some of "hers", too.
6) How much should I share about my plans? I'm not doing anything to impress her so I don't feel the need to proactively share what I'm doing, but if I say I have plans on Fri and she asks what they are, how much should I share?

I guess I'm trying to figure out the balance between letting her eat cake (good friend but no more) and pushing her away (like, right now she thinks that I want space from her).

Anything else I should be thinking about? Any good resources for post-D interactions (aside from continued GAL, being best dad, being AMOAFWL, following through on commitments)?
Posted By: unchien

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/14/19 09:24 PM

Originally Posted by crdcheck
Hey, thoughts on keeping the "road paved" back?


BTW anything I say below... please make your own decision what to do.

Originally Posted by crdcheck

1) W texts me a funny pic of the dog randomly, says "can you believe she...?" - how do I respond?
Don't.

Originally Posted by crdcheck

2) W invites me in when dropping D3 off - do I accept?
If you want to, sometimes. Make sure your choice is not driven by emotions towards your W.

Originally Posted by crdcheck

3) W starts asking about my separation plans (e.g. "have you booked movers to go to your new house, yet?") - how do I respond?
Does she need to know this information? If so, let her know.

Originally Posted by crdcheck

4) W wants help with something (e.g. "I need to have some body work done on my car, is there a place you recommend?"
Friendly neighbor rule... give her a rec if you have one

Originally Posted by crdcheck
5) We are still sharing various accounts (Amazon, Netflix, etc.) - do I take her off once we separate finances? If it makes a difference I am some of "hers", too.

Separate them at some point. If not critical, ignore for now.

Originally Posted by crdcheck
6) How much should I share about my plans? I'm not doing anything to impress her so I don't feel the need to proactively share what I'm doing, but if I say I have plans on Fri and she asks what they are, how much should I share?
Stay mysterious.

Originally Posted by crdcheck
I guess I'm trying to figure out the balance between letting her eat cake (good friend but no more) and pushing her away (like, right now she thinks that I want space from her).

Anything else I should be thinking about? Any good resources for post-D interactions (aside from continued GAL, being best dad, being AMOAFWL, following through on commitments)?

Ignore what she thinks. Be in touch with your own values, then act according to them. You can't control how she reacts to you living your life. Are you actually pushing her away, or is that just her interpretation? If it's her interpretation ignore.

There is nothing wrong with being cordial and friendly. It is good to model for your daughter that you and her mom can manage a difficult relationship in a healthy way.
Posted By: sandi2

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/15/19 02:36 PM

Quote
Hey, thoughts on keeping the "road paved" back? Examples:

1) W texts me a funny pic of the dog randomly, says "can you believe she...?" - how do I respond?
2) W invites me in when dropping D3 off - do I accept?
3) W starts asking about my separation plans (e.g. "have you booked movers to go to your new house, yet?") - how do I respond?
4) W wants help with something (e.g. "I need to have some body work done on my car, is there a place you recommend?"
5) We are still sharing various accounts (Amazon, Netflix, etc.) - do I take her off once we separate finances? If it makes a difference I am some of "hers", too.
6) How much should I share about my plans? I'm not doing anything to impress her so I don't feel the need to proactively share what I'm doing, but if I say I have plans on Fri and she asks what they are, how much should I share?

I guess I'm trying to figure out the balance between letting her eat cake (good friend but no more) and pushing her away (like, right now she thinks that I want space from her).

Anything else I should be thinking about? Any good resources for post-D interactions (aside from continued GAL, being best dad, being AMOAFWL, following through on commitments)?


This type of stuff would make me furious, if I were in the shoes of the LBS. I mean, you could do absolutely nothing right in her opinion and she did not want to work on the MR, but the minute she moves out she wants to be in the family photos and be your best pal?

I suppose every person has their own idea of what it means to keep the road back paved smoothly, and I'll give you my thoughts on it in a minute. Your MR was in trouble before you started cheating, b/c she didn't want to have sex with you.........and that's usually a red flag. I don't know that she'll ever forgive you, but she'll never forget and probably won't let you forget the affairs, either. I thought Bluwave gave you excellent advise, but can't say that you followed it. By that, I mean that you couldn't save the M, b/c you needed to work on your issues first, and give her time & space from you. Instead, you placed yourself into a position that was very unattractive to your W.......which male cheaters seem to do as a way of trying to make up to their W. Anyway, I won't rehash all of that again.

I don't see keeping the road back paved smoothly meaning you become your ex's BFF. I don't think it means becoming her enemy, either. The things you listed in your post above, are actions of an new XW who wants to keep a certain amount of control and/or connection in the personal life of the H she just dumped. She still wants to be included in your extended family's celebrations/events. She expects you to be available to her whenever she needs tech assistance, plumbing, automobile issues, errand boy, free counseling when she's having a pity party, or a buddy if she's bored. However, she has no intention of building this type of relationship into anything romantic/sexual. In other words, she continues taking advantage, or as I like to say......."using" her LBH.

IMHO, keeping the road paved smoothly is not creating a situation where it would make getting back together impossible or extremely stressful........as long as you hope to reconcile with your XW. My favorite example, (b/c I've seen it happen right here on the board), is a man who jumped into a rebound relationship with OW. Then his W wanted to reconcile. But then........guess what? OW tells him she is pregnant. So, you see the problem. Keeping the road paved smoothly doesn't mean you bend over backward to accommodate your XW, but you don't try to be her worst enemy, either.

I suggest you keep things on a business level for several months, maybe a year. Don't engage in texting except in matters about kids. Finances should be settled before the S/D, and a schedule for kids set. You don't go inside her new place! You pull up and pick the kids up at the door, and deliver them at the door. You aren't there to be chummy with the gal you could never please. Remember her? Well, you leave her alone. You don't ask her any questions about her life, and you don't offer information about your own. Strictly business only. This gives a much needed break that she needs from the emotional hurt and bitterness that is connected to you. She has to be away from you in order to sort it out, and just maybe.......try to heal. But as long as you are available whenever she texts or calls with some "excuse", she won't work through the anger and bitterness. First thing you know, she'll be bringing things up in conversation or messages........how selfish you are, etc. So, it's time to drop the rope and move on with your life. I don't advise you to get into another relationship for a couple of years, but you don't have to stop living and GAL.

She won't like this arrangement, but she wanted out of the M.......and she doesn't get to have it both ways. Trust me when I say that by her reacting this quickly to wanting to be in family photos and sending these type of texts..........she plans to "use" you. Yes, it is cake eating! Just remember that she fired you and removed herself from the position of your wife. So, outside of kid swaps, why should there be all these texts messages? No, don't fall into that trap where she's sending you pictures off the Internet, or whatever. Don't acknowledge that kind of stuff. Some women send photos of the kids every twenty minutes, or ask LBH to send her photos when it's his turn to keep the kids.......mostly b/c they are addicted to their phones, and b/c they want to keep that string attached. They want the divorce, but they don't want the consequences that come with the divorce. I'm not saying you should be punitive, but I'm just trying to warn you what to expect.

I think it's time to cut out MC, if that is still going on. She can get IC, and you can continue with IC. Hopefully, within a couple of years, she can start letting go of some things and moving forward. I realize that sounds like a long time, but realistically, when dealing with these type of issues, it's not that long. Whether you reconcile the M or not, if she can heal enough, then the two of you may be able to get on closer terms. Only time will tell.
Posted By: AnotherStander

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/15/19 04:19 PM

I agree with Sandi's comments that there needs to be a period after S that is business-only. Minimal contact, little interaction. She invites you inside you politely decline. She sends you texts you don't reply unless it's something kid or finance related. There needs to be an adjustment period where both of you get used to being "unmarried". Don't be mean or cold, just detached. After my S every time I would go to the gym they would play that song "now you're just somebody that I used to know." THAT should be your attitude, as difficult as it may be.

As far as "keeping the way home paved and smooth", that doesn't mean to be her bestie. It doesn't mean be out there paving and repaving and paving again every day, what it means is you don't set up any roadblocks and you don't dig any potholes. See the difference? You're not actively trying to pursue or pull her back in, but you're also not doing anything to sabotage a future recon. Don't be mean, don't pick fights, don't be catty, don't talk to her friends and relatives about how "crazy" she is. Just live your life and let her live hers. Most recons I've seen come after a long, quiet period of little to no interaction.
Posted By: crdcheck

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/16/19 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by sandi2

This type of stuff would make me furious, if I were in the shoes of the LBS. I mean, you could do absolutely nothing right in her opinion and she did not want to work on the MR, but the minute she moves out she wants to be in the family photos and be your best pal?


I should clarify - these haven't all occurred yet but, based on previous experiences I think that they are reasonably likely. In the past she's said that she wants to be friends no matter what, going so far as to suggest that we take a family trip together. Those big items I know that I will have time to think through before responding but I wanted to proactively think through small items ("hey, do you want to come in and see the crazy kitchen in here?"). I recognize that a) I'm going to make mistakes and that b) in isolation they probably won't have a huge impact (we are getting divorced, 1/3 chance of attempting R, 1/3 chance of R taking hold) but I'd like to do what I can to improve our odds.
Originally Posted by sandi2

IMHO, keeping the road paved smoothly is not creating a situation where it would make getting back together impossible or extremely stressful........as long as you hope to reconcile with your XW. My favorite example, (b/c I've seen it happen right here on the board), is a man who jumped into a rebound relationship with OW. Then his W wanted to reconcile. But then........guess what? OW tells him she is pregnant. So, you see the problem. Keeping the road paved smoothly doesn't mean you bend over backward to accommodate your XW, but you don't try to be her worst enemy, either.

Yep, makes sense. Where I'm at in general is that I'm going to be me and if she looks over decides that's who she wants then we can talk about working through our issues. I'm not going back to the status quo even if she decides that I wasn't as bad as she thought (shame on me for trying to change too much of myself that I really didn't exist). Where I sort of struggle is that, with most people I'm an open book. When people at work ask me how my weekend was I give specifics. When the barber asks why I'm buying a house when I just moved I tell him about the divorce and how I contributed to it. Point is, being "mysterious" with W will be inconsistent with who I am and I'm not sure if that is the nature of the situation and will improve the odds of a positive outcome or if it will come across as insincere (another case of me not being myself) and push her away.
Originally Posted by sandi2

I suggest you keep things on a business level for several months, maybe a year. Don't engage in texting except in matters about kids. ... So, it's time to drop the rope and move on with your life. I don't advise you to get into another relationship for a couple of years, but you don't have to stop living and GAL.

Makes sense. One question - why the recommendation against another relationship? Not disagreeing, just want to understand the danger (that W thinks I've closed the door to R? That these are likely to fail?)

Originally Posted by sandi2

I think it's time to cut out MC, if that is still going on. She can get IC, and you can continue with IC. Hopefully, within a couple of years, she can start letting go of some things and moving forward. I realize that sounds like a long time, but realistically, when dealing with these type of issues, it's not that long. Whether you reconcile the M or not, if she can heal enough, then the two of you may be able to get on closer terms. Only time will tell.


MC is over - I dropped the rope on this after the last session, decided that if she wanted to continue to see someone to work on communications, etc., I would be happy to do so, but not only am I no longer going to beg or coerce her into going, I'm not even scheduling it. That's been my approach for the entire divorce. She wants to sell the house? Fine. But I'm not volunteering to pull weeds to make it more presentable. If she asks for help then, depending on whether or not I want to I will. But ultimately this is her "project" now that she unilaterally cut me out of leadership responsibilities.

I have an IC that I like. I think that hers is poor - based on her website and description from W it seems like she's all about making W feel better, no discussion of W's impact to MR. E.g. W claims that IC diagnosed me with narcissistic personality disorder (NPD). Even if I had it, that can't be done without an in-person evaluation. But maybe W made that up (of late I've noticed that she has a distressing habit of exaggerating and/or straight up making stuff up). Regardless, I don't think that her IC has been an advocate for working together on this - since she started she's come back with nothing but criticisms of me ("turning away" rather than "turning toward"). Of course, I do have to ask myself if I'm just a big a##hole but I think there is toxic behavior from both of us.

Last question: what does "closer terms" mean? It seems like we are saying "no" to cake eating which leads me to conclude that I should be business-like for...ever, but what would "closer" be like? I mean, here's the thing: I have plenty of friends (more now that I'm not on a leash), I'm a great father, I have more to do than I have time to do. I don't need another friend. I need a partner. That "job" is available, all other postings are filled at this time. As angry as I am with her about various items I can see that we make a great team in so many ways and that the differences are overplayed - we could work through them together if she was willing to do so. But a buddy? Nah.

Thanks, Sandi, for the advice. I spent a lot of time marinating on it before responding and I appreciate the mix of short-term vs longer-term recommendations.
Posted By: crdcheck

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/16/19 06:04 PM

Originally Posted by AnotherStander

As far as "keeping the way home paved and smooth", that doesn't mean to be her bestie. It doesn't mean be out there paving and repaving and paving again every day, what it means is you don't set up any roadblocks and you don't dig any potholes. See the difference? You're not actively trying to pursue or pull her back in, but you're also not doing anything to sabotage a future recon. Don't be mean, don't pick fights, don't be catty, don't talk to her friends and relatives about how "crazy" she is. Just live your life and let her live hers. Most recons I've seen come after a long, quiet period of little to no interaction.


Yep, makes sense. I just wonder whether I'm creating roadblocks by treating her differently than I would anyone else (if someone texts me a funny pic I acknowledge it, if someone invites me in to see their home I join, regardless of relationship). Feels like she could take it as I'm bitter and cutting her out completely, door is closed. But message is coming in loud and clear from both of you (and others). Better that she feel the loss rather than enjoy the benefits without investing.

And I guess that I have to come to terms with the idea that, while R is best (to me), second best is being separate, not being her friend (or whatever). It's a bit of a mental chasm - the idea that we have to be nothing (and I have to enforce that despite her entreaties) before we can (MAYBE) be together.
Posted By: unchien

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/16/19 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by crdcheck
if someone texts me a funny pic I acknowledge it

Why? I mean this seriously... why do you always respond?

Originally Posted by crdcheck
if someone invites me in to see their home I join, regardless of relationship

Stranger danger!

I detect a little NG behavior here... stop worrying about how anybody interprets what you do (not just your W). Are you self-identifying as a nice person? Do you want others to see you as nice? It's okay to be nice, but don't be doing it because you value niceness.

Ultimately, how can you expect your W to change if you aren't willing to change? That's what stepping back is all about. Give her the space. If you have to think of it this way, think of it as you granting your W a gift. The gift of time and space to figure out what she wants. She can't figure that out while you're acting like friends (unless being friends is what you'd like to be).

You will get blowback from her. I'm telling you... that's what it's going to take for any change to happen anyways. You can't nice her back.
Posted By: AnotherStander

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/16/19 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by crdcheck
I just wonder whether I'm creating roadblocks by treating her differently than I would anyone else (if someone texts me a funny pic I acknowledge it, if someone invites me in to see their home I join, regardless of relationship). Feels like she could take it as I'm bitter and cutting her out completely, door is closed. But message is coming in loud and clear from both of you (and others). Better that she feel the loss rather than enjoy the benefits without investing.


For now you need to cut her out of her life as much as is reasonable. You didn't just get BD'd by all those other people who are texting you funny pics or inviting you in, so yeah, that's a pretty big difference smile My take on this is after you drop the rope and detach, THEN if you are OK with being in the friend zone with her then more power to you, go for it. But it can take well over a year post-BD for you to well and truly detach. Until then you should maintain as much space between the two of you as you can.

Quote
It's a bit of a mental chasm - the idea that we have to be nothing (and I have to enforce that despite her entreaties) before we can (MAYBE) be together.


Yes that is exactly right. Nothing is often better than something when it comes to paving the road to recon. The problem is nothing doesn't FEEL better. It goes against our nature. Especially us guys. We want to get in there and tinker and poke and prod and temperature check and analyze and calculate and make spreadsheets and calculate the odds, LOL! That's our instincts in play, but we've got to fight that. Get's easier with time.
Posted By: crdcheck

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/19/19 03:09 AM

Yes, I have some of the NGS. I definitely have insecurities around being liked and I have always felt the need to make others happy so that I can be happy, too. I lose sleep when I know that someone doesn't like me (well, it depends on the person - the closer I am to someone the less I care).

So, good news - I have stepped back and I have adhered to the advice here (and cherry on top was anticipating what W was going to ask and getting ahead of it). D slept and W's last night and, after spending the early afternoon going to open houses with my brother we dropped by W's new place to pick her (D) up. First time I have been there. W invited me and my brother in, saying D wasn't ready yet. I just smiled and said "no thanks, we'll wait out here". Immediately picked up my conversation with my brother. W gave a weird look and went back inside; came back out 3-4 min later with D.

Tonight she is texting me to tell me that our dog (which she got as part of the separation - sharing her would be wrong for everyone) is in pain. I love that dog and hate to hear that she's hurting. At the same time, I'm not sure why W is telling me. I gave a few validating statements and W came back with "if you don't want to know I can not share...". Not sure what she's looking for, maybe that I would take the dog to the vet tomorrow so W doesn't have to deal with it (she's home with D3 as first day of school is Tues).

This is where I have to give credit to all of you. If I hadn't gotten your feedback I would certainly ask "hey, what can I do?" and/or offer to come by to see the dog. You all have given me confidence that this detachment is the best way. THANK YOU!

JOURNAL

Woke up to a quiet house, lots of echoes (since half of the furniture is gone). Kind of sad. Was nice to be able to lay in bed for a bit rather than having to run out. Did a long workout, decided to go to the cafe down the street rather than make my own breakfast. Grabbed my kindle (I find solo eating to be awkward so have to have something to occupy myself). Ended up sitting outside (weather was awesome), having a great brunch, server randomly struck up a conversation with me about what books we were both reading (she initiated, just being polite - still nice to be noticed). Then open houses with my brother (house for him - forgot to announce that I have a house under contract, YAY!). Leaving my new place to be a mystery for W. Actually, I'm not volunteering much of anything to her.

D3 and I washed my car (it's a "dad thing" she loves to do with me). She wanted to to eat dinner and stay at her mom's and, since we really haven't formally kicked off the custody arrangement, I said OK. Custody starts tomorrow. It was nice to spend time with her but it hurts that she prefers mom. My understanding is that it's typical for kids her age so the logical part of me knows not to be upset. But the emotional side of me is disappointed.

Picked up some replacement kitchen stuff on the way back (items that W took, have to get duplicates). Cleaned up what remains of the house. Basically kept myself occupied. Overall, feeling good. Yes, sad to be without my family. But happy to have plenty to do (forgot to mention the concert on Friday, lunch with D3 yesterday, dinner with parents yesterday), a path forward on my new house, and proud that I'm changing myself and following through on my commitment to go against my nature and follow the advice on this board.
Posted By: DaB35

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/19/19 11:34 AM

I tried the transparency thing when my W discovered my infidelity (online only). She was pleased but decided to go through with a divorce as she doesn't want to spend her time checking up on me.

It is hard because you want to prove everything to show you/they are changing and can be trusted. It can't happen immediately I suppose.

The waiting game is usually the only option, as frustrating as it seems.
Posted By: crdcheck

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/19/19 01:54 PM

Yeah, that's almost certainly one of the main components, that she believes that she'll never be able to trust me again. And I get it - I violated her trust deliberately and repeatedly. What's unfortunate is that one of the key variables in this she controls - I felt like I couldn't share with her, that she didn't care about me. If, since I came clean, she'd been able to open up, I really think that the fear and wariness would have dissipated.

So, yes, you (and Unchien, and Steve85, and Sandi...) are certainly right - we need time and space.
Posted By: unchien

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/19/19 05:23 PM

crdcheck - Yep, time and space. And handling the interactions with your W with care - validate, don't get triggered.

It does work even though it feels completely counter-intuitive. I'm pretty sure my M is heading for D. But after months of doing my best to DB (not perfectly), my W has started having brief moments of clarity. Not about wanting the M back, but understanding that I am not the devil in this situation.

Regarding rebuilding trust - I think trust is based on authenticity and integrity. Not on specific actions.

What I mean is, if you take an action with a goal of rebuilding trust, that is a controlling thing to do. For instance, granting your W access to your phone (I understand you are way past this point, illustrative example only). They will see that as a manipulative attempt, even though of course from your standpoint you are demonstrating you are trustworthy. Perhaps it is necessary to take action, but it will never be sufficient.

But if you instead can live authentically and with integrity - defining your values, and then executing your life according to those values, holding yourself to a high standard - that will shine through over time.

As weird as it sounds, this is where boundaries come into play. By not offering to take the dog to the vet, you are living according to the value that your W's problems are not your problems. You are a self-differentiated person, you will not let other people gray out those boundaries, your W, or anyone else. You look strong and in control of yourself. You look like someone who does not need to go find somebody else to feel complete. It is attractive.

In the short-term, these things like the dog vet will likely tick off your W. Take the long-term view. Whether she eventually trusts you or not, you are going to be so much happier with how you are living your life.
Posted By: crdcheck

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/20/19 08:43 PM

That trust thing is the worst. It's obvious that it's far easier to destroy than to build but yeah, I feel that there's literally nothing I can do. And W says that this is something she will never be able to get past so maybe D is the only answer. I really don't know.

Interesting (but predictable by you folks) moment today. W took the checkbook when she moved out and I needed to write a check for the earnest money for my new house (moving forward!). I texted last night and she told me that she would bring it to work. Reminder for those who haven't read the whole thread - we work at the same company. I texted her at 9 AM asking when I could pick it up and she told me that it was at her desk. I ran up to grab it and she was there (haven't seen her since Sunday BTW) but I didn't see the check book. She didn't notice me right away but, when she did, she seemed excited to see me. She grabbed the check book right away from her her purse and then started to tell me about how she thinks that she broke her toe the night before:

Me: Wow, that [censored], bet it really hurt
W: I was trying to keep D and the dog asleep, don't know my way around my new place (smiling)
Me: Well did you have X for dinner? (She broke her toe once after eating X... funny story involving too much alcohol and X, slipped in a mess she made herself)
W: Huh? No, hahahaha! Wow, so long ago. So, yeah, my toe really hurts, and I'm stuck carrying the dog up...
Me: Hey, I've got to lead a meeting right now, really have to run, bye!

All positive, all smiles (both of us), but no attempt on my part to extend, and it seems like she's really trying to be friends. So, proud to not be getting hopes up (and/or dashed). Probably could have skipped the reference to her previous broken toe.

Side note: noticed that her uncle viewed my profile on LinkedIn and that we were not connected. I'm pretty sure that we were at one point and I'll be honest - I was immediately angered. How petty and childish?!? Who told him?!? What are they saying about me??? All that went through my head in about 5 seconds. On the sixth second I asked myself what I was feeling (shame, anger, bitterness, a sense of being treated unfairly) and at about the 10th second I said that these were my feelings that I controlled, that we may have never been connected in the first place, and, even if we were, it says more about him than it does about me. Back to the five seconds, that was the "bad" me, thinking about defriending/unfollowing/unlinking/etc. all of them before I calmed myself down. Point is: it takes time and seems counterintuitive but detaching is making me a happier person. It does require deliberate action, though.
Posted By: unchien

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/21/19 08:34 PM

Originally Posted by crdcheck
Side note: noticed that her uncle viewed my profile on LinkedIn and that we were not connected. I'm pretty sure that we were at one point and I'll be honest - I was immediately angered. How petty and childish?!? Who told him?!? What are they saying about me??? All that went through my head in about 5 seconds. On the sixth second I asked myself what I was feeling (shame, anger, bitterness, a sense of being treated unfairly) and at about the 10th second I said that these were my feelings that I controlled, that we may have never been connected in the first place, and, even if we were, it says more about him than it does about me. Back to the five seconds, that was the "bad" me, thinking about defriending/unfollowing/unlinking/etc. all of them before I calmed myself down. Point is: it takes time and seems counterintuitive but detaching is making me a happier person. It does require deliberate action, though.

^^^^^^^^^^^

THIS is everything. Those 10 seconds, and how you handle them, are what it's all about. I don't think there is any more valuable lesson to learn from these situations. I love that you posted this.

Emotional awareness is just like a muscle. The more you exercise it, the more it grows.
Posted By: crdcheck

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/23/19 02:59 AM

Thanks, unchien. Space has helped, too, I think - not having to analyze so many of these little things has freed me up.

So, I'm trying to be proactive and have a couple of questions:

1) If W asks why I'm not really engaging with her (not coming into her house, talking to her at work, etc.) what do I say?
2) And if she says that it feels like I want nothing to do with her (or something to the effect that it feels like I'm moving on) what do I say? I'm definitely open to reconciling but I don't want to pursue*.

*And I genuinely feel this way now. The "I'll do anything" part of me is gone (or at least dormant).
Posted By: LH19

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/23/19 09:10 AM

W: I need time and space to heal so I can move on with my life.

She knows you want to reconcile. That痴 what makes this easier for her. It痴 not until she thinks that you may not want to reconcile that she may consider reconciliation.

You need to change your mindset and start to think about what YOU would need from HER to consider reconciliation.
Posted By: AnotherStander

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/23/19 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by crdcheck
1) If W asks why I'm not really engaging with her (not coming into her house, talking to her at work, etc.) what do I say?


LH said exactly what I was going to, so "ditto".

Quote
2) And if she says that it feels like I want nothing to do with her (or something to the effect that it feels like I'm moving on) what do I say?


Just nod and say "yes I can see how it might appear that way to you." That's answering her question while still being mysterious.
Posted By: unchien

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/23/19 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by LH19
You need to change your mindset and start to think about what YOU would need from HER to consider reconciliation.

^^^^^^^
THIS

If you cannot identify the changes you would need to see, you are still fully attached to the rope. This mindset change is crucial to detachment.

Originally Posted by crdcheck
Thanks, unchien. Space has helped, too, I think - not having to analyze so many of these little things has freed me up.

So, I'm trying to be proactive and have a couple of questions:

1) If W asks why I'm not really engaging with her (not coming into her house, talking to her at work, etc.) what do I say?
2) And if she says that it feels like I want nothing to do with her (or something to the effect that it feels like I'm moving on) what do I say? I'm definitely open to reconciling but I don't want to pursue*.

*And I genuinely feel this way now. The "I'll do anything" part of me is gone (or at least dormant).


crd - I am in exactly this same quandary.

I'm going to answer indirectly.

You just cannot control how your W will react to anything. Moreover, she is more than likely going to interpret whatever you do in the exact opposite way from what you intend.

Early in my sitch I was frustrated how my W was just finding scraps of evidence and interpreting them in the wrong way over and over and over. I felt like she was a rocket trying to launch into outer space to escape the gravitational pull of Earth (bear with me here for a minute laugh ). The fuel she needed was anger and righteousness.

WAS'es have their doubts. They are not 100% determined and evil. They *need* to attach themselves to a certain narrative in order to live with their decisions. They need to believe it's not 100% their decision. It's pure human ego.

Heck we all need story (or narrative, or whatever you want to call it) to organize our lives with some purpose. The LBS has a story too. Much of the DB work we do is to detach from our story which has been overpowering our lives in an unhealthy way.

Now... if you are still with me... if you can develop compassion for the WAS mindset (without agreeing with it), it will help with detachment.

Going back to your questions.... you already got great advice above.
Posted By: Ready2Change

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/23/19 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by crdcheck
The "I'll do anything" part of me is gone


You can tell us that all day long. I don't think I believe you.


Anyway, You should be willing to do anything, just don't tell her this. You should do what works, not what you feel like doing. From what I understand, "setting her free" is most effective way.
Posted By: job

Re: Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 2 - 08/23/19 07:47 PM

New Thread:

Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 3
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