How To Treat Spouse With Children 2

[HrtHsbnd]

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http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2853716&page=10

[HrtHsbnd]

Sandi, you are a prophet!

I do believe my wife is very immature. Throughout all of this, she has done all of the wrong things. Everyone that I’ve spoken to has commented that she is acting like a high school girl about this situation. This is the first time in her life she’s ever had to grow up and deal with the consequences of her decisions and I feel she is not doing well at all. She seems to be very depressed, even though she won’t admit that to me.

Her emotions are all over the place and she seems very wishy washy, using words like together, etc. Then she turns around and says she wants a S and D and has remained constant with that. I don’t know what to think about that.

One example is that it seems like she has totally emotionally checked out of our marriage. When it felt like I should, I have sent her texts and even read letters to her over the phone. I got no response to the texts, but I could tell she had some emotions when I read my letter over the phone. She has been very business in texts for a month only talking about our son. She basically has me on the no contact rule. In some ways, I feel like she’s DBing me!

One thing I left out is her parents. They own their own home not too far away from us, yet they choose to live with us because of our so. They’ve been living with us since he was born and it has driven me crazy. I have asked and asked her to ask them to leave and she just never would. She said they’re her parents and she cannot ask them to leave. Her parents have always been an important part of her life, but that has gone way up since our son was born.

Truthfully, she hasn’t had to feel the consequences of her actions because her parents are always there. Our S tells me all the time that she never does anything with him, but her mom always does. I’m out here GAL, finding myself, working on myself with therapy, being a single parent and being the best dad anyone could be. She’s not had to do ANY of that and it seems like that’s going to slow down the process.

I have a few minutes to post, so I wanted to drop by your thread to share a few thoughts about your sitch. IMHO, the real estate deal should not have been a life changing event that led to breaking up the MR. I see your W as either being immature, or she was using the real estate deal as her platform to end the M.
P
I want to ask you a question. Do you know who the real HrtHsbnd is? Are you being your true self, or are you trying to be someone you think she wants?

Any ideas on how to make my wife miss me?

Yes, I'd start by letting go of the emotional rope. Take your focus off her and the MR. Move forward with your life.
When you earnestly let go, she will know it.......and if there's a chance she could ever miss you, that's it. Why? B/c she can sense when she's lost her hold on you. When none of her little escapades work anymore, and when you stop rescuing her from consequences and just let her deal with the reality she's caused.

Do you live in your in-laws house, or do they live in your house? How long?

[HrtHsbnd]

I didn’t answer this question.

I would like to think that I know who I am. I used to always be the most positive person anyone knew. I think that all changed when her parents decided to move in and take over our lives. Instead of our home being a family of 3, it turned into a family of 5. I have been told this is one of the worst cases of parental involvement people have seen.

During our situation, I decided that I didn’t like the Negative Nellie I had become. I went to therapy and have gone almost every week since. In addition, I’ve tried to do a lot of research, as well as work on myself to find me again. I also wanted to do whatever I could to take my mind off things.

I am the person she wants. I just lost myself in the negativity. It was my positivity that won her over to me, as well as being her listening ear. I want to show her that I am me again, but she just won’t have any of it. We know each other better than anyone and that’s not a good thing right now. She knows what buttons to push to get a reaction out of me and I almost fall for it every time, though I feel like I am getting better. I think it just takes time.

I don’t think she knows who she is anymore with all of this, though. Unfortunately, right now I don’t think she cares if she’s herself or someone she thinks I want.

We have always held hands throughout whatever life has given us and she just won’t let me anymore. I feel that I have all the answers to fix this situation or at least really move it forward in a positive direction as a family, if she would just trust me and give me that chance.

I want to ask you a question. Do you know who the real HrtHsbnd is? Are you being your true self, or are you trying to be someone you think she wants?

[HrtHsbnd]

Can you give me some examples of this?
What does this look like?
What do you mean by her escapades?
What do you mean by rescuing her from her consequences?

I agree with you on this and I want to make sure I understand and am doing exactly what needs to be done.

I do feel like I am riding her emotional rollercoaster with her and I don’t like it. Some days she is very nice with me over the phone and some days she’s not. When she’s around her parents, she is a freaking turd. When we are in MC, she turns into a tough guy.

She calls my family and tells them she doesn’t think I’m taking her seriously when she says we are getting divorced, yet I feel I am taking her seriously but still hoping for the best. She will also call them to wish them a happy birthday, too.

But, why does she call my family if she wants to end it with me? I know I need to not care, but it’s just frustrating to me!

Any ideas on how to make my wife miss me?

Yes, I'd start by letting go of the emotional rope. Take your focus off her and the MR. Move forward with your life.
When you earnestly let go, she will know it.......and if there's a chance she could ever miss you, that's it. Why? B/c she can sense when she's lost her hold on you. When none of her little escapades work anymore, and when you stop rescuing her from consequences and just let her deal with the reality she's caused.

[TBSakaJ9]

The reason why you are on the roller coaster is because you are still attached to her and you are actively trying to save your marriage. No one on this board knows what your W is thinking and neither do you. You are doing all of these things loosing weight, reading, learning etc. with the hopes of your W noticing and then she would return. You don't do these things for her you do them for yourself. You are still so very focused on everything that your W does.

Do what you want to do for you, for your S. Become a better man for you and your S. Lose weight for yourself,, get healthy for yourself. Shift your focus...none of what I mentioned has anything to do with your wife. Or don't do anything, just like she is doing and move forward with your life.

The reason why the people who want out of the MR do nothing is because they don't feel they are the problem or feel that they have anything to work on. The initial motivation to change for the LBS is certainly driven by their feelings for their spouse and their desire to not get D'd but over time that will change.

Become the man you want to be not what your W wants or you think she wants you to be.

It is very obvious when people start to make the shift because they stop posting about their W and what she is doing or saying and they post more about what they are doing to become a better person.

[HrtHsbnd]

Great post and thank you!

I do agree that I am still attached and I’m trying to get off of it and go to a more middle ground. When she’s upset, I’m ok. When she’s happy, I’m ok.

I do want to let you know that I feel like I’ve been doing all of this hard work for me. I would be blind if I didn’t say it was also for our marriage, but ultimately it is for me. If I make these lasting changes then I will be a better person regardless.

Would you care to explain more about what you meant when you said, ‘ The reason why the people who want out of the MR do nothing is because they don't feel they are the problem or feel that they have anything to work on. The initial motivation to change for the LBS is certainly driven by their feelings for their spouse and their desire to not get D'd but over time that will change?’

I would like to know more about what you mean. She has told me several times before that she feels that she’s done nothing wrong and wants me to take the blame for everything. I have taken the blame for the S, but I don’t think anything I’ve done is cause for a D. I’ve told her I blame her for that decision, as that’s not on me.

The reason why you are on the roller coaster is because you are still attached to her and you are actively trying to save your marriage. No one on this board knows what your W is thinking and neither do you. You are doing all of these things loosing weight, reading, learning etc. with the hopes of your W noticing and then she would return. You don't do these things for her you do them for yourself. You are still so very focused on everything that your W does.

Do what you want to do for you, for your S. Become a better man for you and your S. Lose weight for yourself,, get healthy for yourself. Shift your focus...none of what I mentioned has anything to do with your wife. Or don't do anything, just like she is doing and move forward with your life.

The reason why the people who want out of the MR do nothing is because they don't feel they are the problem or feel that they have anything to work on. The initial motivation to change for the LBS is certainly driven by their feelings for their spouse and their desire to not get D'd but over time that will change.

Become the man you want to be not what your W wants or you think she wants you to be.

It is very obvious when people start to make the shift because they stop posting about their W and what she is doing or saying and they post more about what they are doing to become a better person.

[TBSakaJ9]

You have to remember that your W isn't on this board so generally speaking, outside of becoming more attractive for a new partner she is probably unware or willing to accept any responsibility. People can rationalize and say anything to shift guilt. The failure of a marriage, outside of hard issues, is never just one person's fault. More than likely your W doesn't want to be the person so they say anything to deflect or not be made out to be the bad person.

Thats why you pay attention to actions not words.

[HrtHsbnd]

So is it common for WAW to not want to work on their marriage?

You have to remember that your W isn't on this board so generally speaking, outside of becoming more attractive for a new partner she is probably unware or willing to accept any responsibility. People can rationalize and say anything to shift guilt. The failure of a marriage, outside of hard issues, is never just one person's fault. More than likely your W doesn't want to be the person so they say anything to deflect or not be made out to be the bad person.

Thats why you pay attention to actions not words.

[sandi2]

Can you give me some examples of this?
What does this look like?

When you were a kid, did you ever play tug-of-war? You and an opponent pull on a rope, and whoever pulls the other one over the middle line, first, wins the game. Both teams are struggling with all their might, pulling on that rope! That's what a lot of couples do when facing a sitch like yours. However, the minute you drop your end of the rope.......the struggle is over. You walk away from it and focus on making a life for yourself. That's dropping the rope! You stop trying to figure out how to get her back. You stop wondering what she's doing, what she's thinking, etc. You just go on with life as though she were no longer a part of it. You don't act mean, cold-hearted, or anything along those lines....but you don't get involved with her drama.

B/c she can sense when she's lost her hold on you. When none of her little escapades work anymore, and when you stop rescuing her from consequences and just let her deal with the reality she's caused.

What do you mean by her escapades?

Whenever she acts helpless/desperate, or says that nobody cares about her, or whatever she decides to use that will make you do whatever it is she wants at that particular moment. She will say and do things that mislead, dumbfound, and confuse you......b/c you think logically, and she doesn't. She will test you to see if you are still emotionally attached to her, and when she sees that you are......then she's not interested. The one thing the WW doesn't really consider.....is losing the H's love and availability in her life. She doesn't want him, but she thought he would always carry a torch for her. I know that makes no sense to you, but it is the arrogant mindset. She doesn't really see him replacing her position in his life. Even if she tells him she wants him to find someone else......she doesn't mean it. It's just a scenario she gives.

What do you mean by rescuing her from her consequences?

When she said she wanted a D and left you, then her problems became her problems.......not yours. She has fired you, so now you stop playing like her H. Most times the W's problems are about her need for more money. Maybe she's maxed out her credit cards, took too many weekend trips, bought too many clothes......whatever. If she wants a new car and can't afford one on her salary alone, don't co-sign for a loan and don't buy her a car. If all her old friends don't invite her to their get-togethers any more, don't try to fix their relationship. Let her figure it out.

Some W's will call their LBH, complaining about something, and the H thinks if he fixes it (or rescues her) then he scores brownie points. If she has a wayward mindset, it won't get him any closer to reconciliation. Allowing her to face consequences that came due to her decision to leave the M, is a form of tough love. She doesn't want you, but she wants you to fix her bills or buy her something b/c she can't afford it? No, it doesn't work that way. If she wants to live on her own, then she has to figure out how to do it. (I hope you will stay balanced about this, and don't get crazy.) BTW, don't decide to repeat any of these words to her, thinking you'll break through to her.

I do feel like I am riding her emotional rollercoaster with her and I don’t like it. Some days she is very nice with me over the phone and some days she’s not. When she’s around her parents, she is a freaking turd. When we are in MC, she turns into a tough guy.

Then get off the ride! When you see her bringing drama.......you don't engage. If possible, you remove yourself. You be you, and stop trying to win her back. When she's nice, just remind yourself it means NOTHING. Don't start doing cartwheels or anything.......just be polite. If she starts pulling the freaking turd trick, separate yourself from her. Her parents are on their own.

She calls my family and tells them she doesn’t think I’m taking her seriously when she says we are getting divorced, yet I feel I am taking her seriously but still hoping for the best. She will also call them to wish them a happy birthday, too.

But, why does she call my family if she wants to end it with me? I know I need to not care, but it’s just frustrating to me!

Control and manipulation. Even if you can't understand or see it, she is doing it to benefit herself somehow.

[sandi2]

One example is that it seems like she has totally emotionally checked out of our marriage. When it felt like I should, I have sent her texts and even read letters to her over the phone. I got no response to the texts, but I could tell she had some emotions when I read my letter over the phone.

She is emotionally checked out. And let me tell ya, when you try to make her feel something she doesn't want to feel.......you're just digging the M grave deeper.

To you, it may seem you are trying to help her when she's depressed. However, it is heavy pursuit, and trying to get her to have some emotion is simply not your place. I see this all the time when reading LBH threads. They try to make the W feel a certain way, and it's very frustrating. LBH's want to see some type of response, so they poke & poke until they get something. I'm telling you it does not help the H's cause. Reading letters over the phone is pressure. She may have gotten a little emotional, but that's all it was. Please stop texting, emailing, and calling........unless it is urgent. She sees all of it as you smothering her to death. So, back off and give her plenty of breathing room (which her parents never have).

One thing I left out is her parents. They own their own home not too far away from us, yet they choose to live with us because of our so. They’ve been living with us since he was born and it has driven me crazy. I have asked and asked her to ask them to leave and she just never would. She said they’re her parents and she cannot ask them to leave. Her parents have always been an important part of her life, but that has gone way up since our son was born.

That's very unfortunate, b/c the M won't stand a chance as long as you have other people living in the house with you. I put extra emphasis on in-laws!! No wonder she seems immature, if her parents are there all the time and taking up her slack. If the MR reconciles, there needs to be a very serious agreement in place that she will stand beside you when YOU tell her parents that it's time for them to go home. In fact, why can't you tell them to go home now, since their daughter no lives there?

[HrtHsbnd]

Sandi, thank you for taking time out of your day to give me your advice. I really appreciate it!

I understand and I feel I have been doing that, I’m just not totally detached yet.
Would the idea of dating someone else make her mad or justify her actions?

When you were a kid, did you ever play tug-of-war? You and an opponent pull on a rope, and whoever pulls the other one over the middle line, first, wins the game. Both teams are struggling with all their might, pulling on that rope! That's what a lot of couples do when facing a sitch like yours. However, the minute you drop your end of the rope.......the struggle is over. You walk away from it and focus on making a life for yourself. That's dropping the rope! You stop trying to figure out how to get her back. You stop wondering what she's doing, what she's thinking, etc. You just go on with life as though she were no longer a part of it. You don't act mean, cold-hearted, or anything along those lines....but you don't get involved with her drama.

She will usually pout or be depressed. She will also just be really mean and short with me and won’t let talk to my son on webchat. She does say a lot of things that really dumbfound and mislead me, so I can see that, too.

I know you can’t fight emotions with logic, so if I emotionally detach from her, then that is obviously speaking to her emotions. But if I still seem attached to her then she won’t want me because the logical thing to do.

Do you think I’m understanding that correctly?

Finally, I don’t know if she is WAW or WW, but I feel like she’s more WAW based on what the MC has said. Does that change any of your advice?

B/c she can sense when she's lost her hold on you. When none of her little escapades work anymore, and when you stop rescuing her from consequences and just let her deal with the reality she's caused.

Whenever she acts helpless/desperate, or says that nobody cares about her, or whatever she decides to use that will make you do whatever it is she wants at that particular moment. She will say and do things that mislead, dumbfound, and confuse you......b/c you think logically, and she doesn't. She will test you to see if you are still emotionally attached to her, and when she sees that you are......then she's not interested. The one thing the WW doesn't really consider.....is losing the H's love and availability in her life. She doesn't want him, but she thought he would always carry a torch for her. I know that makes no sense to you, but it is the arrogant mindset. She doesn't really see him replacing her position in his life. Even if she tells him she wants him to find someone else......she doesn't mean it. It's just a scenario she gives.

I totally agree with you and not being her H is hard. Theres no way for you to k ow this, but the problem with these examples is that money has never and will never be an issue for her because of her parents. She is a lot of debt, but I’m sure they will help her get out of that, too.

Honestly, the only thing she really needs from me is companionship. Their relationship is just different.

As far as calling me to complain about something just doesn’t happen. We really don’t speak anymore unless it’s during FaceTime with our son. That’s not on me, but her wishes. Any ideas on how to open that communication up other than just continuing to DB?

When she said she wanted a D and left you, then her problems became her problems.......not yours. She has fired you, so now you stop playing like her H. Most times the W's problems are about her need for more money. Maybe she's maxed out her credit cards, took too many weekend trips, bought too many clothes......whatever. If she wants a new car and can't afford one on her salary alone, don't co-sign for a loan and don't buy her a car. If all her old friends don't invite her to their get-togethers any more, don't try to fix their relationship. Let her figure it out.

Some W's will call their LBH, complaining about something, and the H thinks if he fixes it (or rescues her) then he scores brownie points. If she has a wayward mindset, it won't get him any closer to reconciliation. Allowing her to face consequences that came due to her decision to leave the M, is a form of tough love. She doesn't want you, but she wants you to fix her bills or buy her something b/c she can't afford it? No, it doesn't work that way. If she wants to live on her own, then she has to figure out how to do it. (I hope you will stay balanced about this, and don't get crazy.) BTW, don't decide to repeat any of these words to her, thinking you'll break through to her.

Do I just get up and leave MC when she starts to get angry and go off? I do hang up on her every now and then when she gets angry, but I feel like she does that to me more! That’s why I feel like she DB’s as much as I do!

Then get off the ride! When you see her bringing drama.......you don't engage. If possible, you remove yourself. You be you, and stop trying to win her back. When she's nice, just remind yourself it means NOTHING. Don't start doing cartwheels or anything.......just be polite. If she starts pulling the freaking turd trick, separate yourself from her. Her parents are on their own.

I totally agree with you here, too. She wants people from my side on her side so she can justify her actions and then throw it in my face.

Sandi, this is hard. I love my wife but this person she is right now is horrible!

Control and manipulation. Even if you can't understand or see it, she is doing it to benefit herself somehow.

[HrtHsbnd]

I get your point, but will there ever be a time that I just decide to walk away and really be done with it?

I feel like I have all these things I want to say to her but can’t because she’s not willing to listen to them.

When have I given her too much breathing room?

We’ve been doing this for 5 months.

She is emotionally checked out. And let me tell ya, when you try to make her feel something she doesn't want to feel.......you're just digging the M grave deeper.

To you, it may seem you are trying to help her when she's depressed. However, it is heavy pursuit, and trying to get her to have some emotion is simply not your place. I see this all the time when reading LBH threads. They try to make the W feel a certain way, and it's very frustrating. LBH's want to see some type of response, so they poke & poke until they get something. I'm telling you it does not help the H's cause. Reading letters over the phone is pressure. She may have gotten a little emotional, but that's all it was. Please stop texting, emailing, and calling........unless it is urgent. She sees all of it as you smothering her to death. So, back off and give her plenty of breathing room (which her parents never have).

I agree with you and boundaries need to happen. I just don’t know that it’s my place yet because she’s not willing to listen to me. We are going to spend 1 session in MC this week talking about Coparenting and then go right back to our marriage, so I hope that the stuff with her parents comes out then. Her parents are there ALL the time. She even brings her motives to doctor appointments with our son.

I am going to tell her that I would be willing to talk to her parents, it’s something I should’ve done a long time ago. I just didn’t think it would get to this point. No, she lives at our home with her parents and I moved out.

So is it common for WAW to not want to work on the marriage?

That's very unfortunate, b/c the M won't stand a chance as long as you have other people living in the house with you. I put extra emphasis on in-laws!! No wonder she seems immature, if her parents are there all the time and taking up her slack. If the MR reconciles, there needs to be a very serious agreement in place that she will stand beside you when YOU tell her parents that it's time for them to go home. In fact, why can't you tell them to go home now, since their daughter no lives there?

[SteveLW]

So is it common for WAW to not want to work on their marriage?

You have to remember that your W isn't on this board so generally speaking, outside of becoming more attractive for a new partner she is probably unware or willing to accept any responsibility. People can rationalize and say anything to shift guilt. The failure of a marriage, outsi wide of hard issues, is never just one person's fault. More than likely your W doesn't want to be the person so they say anything to deflect or not be made out to be the bad person.

Thats why you pay attention to actions not words.

Of course! By time BD rolls around they are done. This is what we try to get LBSs to see all the time. WAS says " I'm done. I want as little of you as possible." The LBS then reacts to that by smothering then with their presence 24/7! And then wonder why their MR wasn't saved.

BD was not an impulse. Most WASs have been building up to BD for months.... Even years.

So no, they do not want to work on the marriage. If they did they wouldn't have BD'd you.

[HrtHsbnd]

Good points!

I feel that’s one of the things I’ve done well with. At first, it was very hard to leave her alone, but I gave her 3-4 weeks with no contact. I would’ve given her more, but she never did anything she agreed too. These were things she said she wanted to do!

In addition, she kept using our S to force me to sign a document that I just wasn’t going to sign, so I went to a lawyer. The lawyer told me to go home, so I did. I’m not there now legally, though.

So is it common for WAW to not want to work on their marriage?

You have to remember that your W isn't on this board so generally speaking, outside of becoming more attractive for a new partner she is probably unware or willing to accept any responsibility. People can rationalize and say anything to shift guilt. The failure of a marriage, outsi wide of hard issues, is never just one person's fault. More than likely your W doesn't want to be the person so they say anything to deflect or not be made out to be the bad person.

Thats why you pay attention to actions not words.

Of course! By time BD rolls around they are done. This is what we try to get LBSs to see all the time. WAS says " I'm done. I want as little of you as possible." The LBS then reacts to that by smothering then with their presence 24/7! And then wonder why their MR wasn't saved.

BD was not an impulse. Most WASs have been building up to BD for months.... Even years.

So no, they do not want to work on the marriage. If they did they wouldn't have BD'd you.

[BluWave]

Hi HH,

Thank you for inviting me to join. I've looked over your threads. I see you have AS and Sandi in your corner -- they are the most seasoned vets and give the best well thought out and thorough advice on the boards! So I am not sure what I can add! A couple of things did come to mind when I was reading, so I can add my thoughts on that. I also think I have a better understanding of WHs than I do of WWs and WAWs, because that is what I dealt with personally, and the DB techniques worked in my sitch when I finally started implementing them correctly. I find WAWs and WWs more confusing TBH.

You asked how to know if you have a WW or a WAW and I see AS answered that and Sandi gave you some links. Perhaps you can answer that better than any of us because we don't really know your W and your history? It seems that the LBHs that have a WAW can think back and see a pattern that has been ongoing. While BD felt like this sudden event or change, they know it wasn't really, they just didn't pay close attention before that. With a WAW, there has been a history of something -- for example, her saying explicitly she was unhappy, or trying to evoke change in the M with you (ie nagging but I hate that word), or maybe even there were years of withdrawal or depression going on. There can even be a pause when she gives up on this "trying" and then BD happens, so it feels like a sudden event. But when the LBH really examines the history with her, he will see it was not a sudden change and simply decided to bail, but rather she had reached the breaking point and she could no longer tolerate it. This can even include an exit affair or some other plan to leave. I have no science to back this, but I tend to think the WAW is less likely to return than the WW. As AS explained, the WW is "chasing the dragon," and it's as if she is more running towards someone else than she is running away from you. Over time, as the A burns out and limerance ends, she might be more likely to reconsider her H than if she is a WAW. Again, I am not the expert, but this is my take. And don't even ask me about MLC, because I call BS on that term in general :-)

So I can only gather you asked for my feedback because you wanted one of my rusty-nail-studded 2*4s? So I will oblige you, sir. .... I had several cringe worthy moments when I read through your threads and these were them. I apologize if I misquote you, but it takes too long to reread everything, and so hopefully you can see where I am going with this.

Here are some things that stood out to me when I read your posts:
"she swooped in and took my sale"
"my inlaws lived with us, even though they shouldn't have"
"I tried to move back in, but she changed the locks"
"she tries to say that it's not MC, even though we both know that it is"
You talk about being mean and cold and then in the next breath being nice
You say that you are an "alpha male" but that this sitch she created has prevented you from being yourself....
You want results (we all do, that's why we are here)
You seem to think that as you make the correct changes, you will get results from her

Can you see a pattern here? What is the pattern and what could benefit from being corrected?

I am not sure if people get this about me (and they may not even care to, which is fine) but the frequent "alpha" verses "beta" male topic and debate is a moot point in my (humble and yet strong) opinion. I could write you several convincing paragraphs as to why my H is an alpha (wasn't before), and I could also do the same and write a persuasive essay as to why he is beta. And, I could do the same about myself, as I think I have characteristics of both. I will save you from that, as I imagine the readers here would find it painful, just as I will from my views on "feminism" and why that is a dying term. But you know what I will tell you, HH? Whether you are "apha" or "beta" or like me and try to be careful with gender stereotypes, there is something that universally most people find attractive. And that is confidence!

After BD, most of us struggle with confidence. BD is the ultimate rejection and confidence destroyer! There are things we can do to build our confidence and ultimately that is what is going to attract our S back to us. What do you need to work on to build confidence? Because that list I wrote above reeks of someone that has low confidence, is a perpetual victim, blames others for their problems and wants to manipulate (ie control) others to get their way. And it doesn't work. You gotta drop the rope and become the best version of yourself and it just takes time. A long, long time. I honestly think that if you can follow the rules, 180, GAL like crazy, and drop the rope, that is your only chance at saving your M. Then in time -- usually a looong time -- she may like what she sees and change her mind. She also may not. That is all you can do. .... The good news is, that if you really put in the hard work, you will be okay without her and you may not want her anymore either.

Blu

[joejoe1]

HH,

Blu hit that nail on the head. That 2x4 is secured. You need to print this out and make it your mantra. It takes a long time to rebuild confidence, the only way to start rebuilding it, is too accept that you are lacking it!

"After BD, most of us struggle with confidence. BD is the ultimate rejection and confidence destroyer! There are things we can do to build our confidence and ultimately that is what is going to attract our S back to us. What do you need to work on to build confidence? Because that list I wrote above reeks of someone that has low confidence, is a perpetual victim, blames others for their problems and wants to manipulate (ie control) others to get their way. And it doesn't work. You gotta (action word) drop the rope and become the best version of yourself and it just takes time. A long, long time. I honestly think that if you can follow the rules, 180, GAL like crazy, and drop the rope, that is your only chance at saving your M. Then in time -- usually a looong time -- she may like what she sees and change her mind. She also may not. That is all you can do. .... The good news is, that if you really put in the hard work, you will be okay without her and you may not want her anymore either."

Onward and upward. You got this HH!!!

Joe

[HrtHsbnd]

Blu and Joe, thank you for adding your input!

AS and Sandi are absolutely amazing and I am honored to get their advice! I am trying to listen and do everything they say. Blu, I am SO GLAD you said what you did. I needed to hear that!

We have always had a wonderful marriage, but it started breaking down with our jobs. She has depression and anxiety. She had told me her feelings, nagged and all of that, which is why I think she’s a WAW. I also think she would never cheat on me. But there has been a lot of smoke, too.

I will be honest, I have always had confidence. Maybe too much! This situation has really hurt my confidence, which is why I’ve been working hard on myself to be the best person, husband and father I can be. That has brought my confidence back in every area except one, dealing with her. Nothing I say or do is right no matter what I do, so I am at a loss on that situation. I realized this weekend that I just need to take a step back and drop the rope, as Sandi said to do and not even care anymore. She will notice that, too.

I don’t need her in my life to be happy or successful. I was happy and successful before I met her and gave her the success and happiness with her career and everything else she now enjoys, too. I am working so hard on my marriage because my life is just better with her and my family in it.

Please stop by and give your opinion anytime. I always enjoy reading and following the advice of all you guys on here.

Hi HH,

Thank you for inviting me to join. I've looked over your threads. I see you have AS and Sandi in your corner -- they are the most seasoned vets and give the best well thought out and thorough advice on the boards! So I am not sure what I can add! A couple of things did come to mind when I was reading, so I can add my thoughts on that. I also think I have a better understanding of WHs than I do of WWs and WAWs, because that is what I dealt with personally, and the DB techniques worked in my sitch when I finally started implementing them correctly. I find WAWs and WWs more confusing TBH.

You asked how to know if you have a WW or a WAW and I see AS answered that and Sandi gave you some links. Perhaps you can answer that better than any of us because we don't really know your W and your history? It seems that the LBHs that have a WAW can think back and see a pattern that has been ongoing. While BD felt like this sudden event or change, they know it wasn't really, they just didn't pay close attention before that. With a WAW, there has been a history of something -- for example, her saying explicitly she was unhappy, or trying to evoke change in the M with you (ie nagging but I hate that word), or maybe even there were years of withdrawal or depression going on. There can even be a pause when she gives up on this "trying" and then BD happens, so it feels like a sudden event. But when the LBH really examines the history with her, he will see it was not a sudden change and simply decided to bail, but rather she had reached the breaking point and she could no longer tolerate it. This can even include an exit affair or some other plan to leave. I have no science to back this, but I tend to think the WAW is less likely to return than the WW. As AS explained, the WW is "chasing the dragon," and it's as if she is more running towards someone else than she is running away from you. Over time, as the A burns out and limerance ends, she might be more likely to reconsider her H than if she is a WAW. Again, I am not the expert, but this is my take. And don't even ask me about MLC, because I call BS on that term in general :-)

So I can only gather you asked for my feedback because you wanted one of my rusty-nail-studded 2*4s? So I will oblige you, sir. .... I had several cringe worthy moments when I read through your threads and these were them. I apologize if I misquote you, but it takes too long to reread everything, and so hopefully you can see where I am going with this.

Here are some things that stood out to me when I read your posts:
"she swooped in and took my sale"
"my inlaws lived with us, even though they shouldn't have"
"I tried to move back in, but she changed the locks"
"she tries to say that it's not MC, even though we both know that it is"
You talk about being mean and cold and then in the next breath being nice
You say that you are an "alpha male" but that this sitch she created has prevented you from being yourself....
You want results (we all do, that's why we are here)
You seem to think that as you make the correct changes, you will get results from her

Can you see a pattern here? What is the pattern and what could benefit from being corrected?

I am not sure if people get this about me (and they may not even care to, which is fine) but the frequent "alpha" verses "beta" male topic and debate is a moot point in my (humble and yet strong) opinion. I could write you several convincing paragraphs as to why my H is an alpha (wasn't before), and I could also do the same and write a persuasive essay as to why he is beta. And, I could do the same about myself, as I think I have characteristics of both. I will save you from that, as I imagine the readers here would find it painful, just as I will from my views on "feminism" and why that is a dying term. But you know what I will tell you, HH? Whether you are "apha" or "beta" or like me and try to be careful with gender stereotypes, there is something that universally most people find attractive. And that is confidence!

After BD, most of us struggle with confidence. BD is the ultimate rejection and confidence destroyer! There are things we can do to build our confidence and ultimately that is what is going to attract our S back to us. What do you need to work on to build confidence? Because that list I wrote above reeks of someone that has low confidence, is a perpetual victim, blames others for their problems and wants to manipulate (ie control) others to get their way. And it doesn't work. You gotta drop the rope and become the best version of yourself and it just takes time. A long, long time. I honestly think that if you can follow the rules, 180, GAL like crazy, and drop the rope, that is your only chance at saving your M. Then in time -- usually a looong time -- she may like what she sees and change her mind. She also may not. That is all you can do. .... The good news is, that if you really put in the hard work, you will be okay without her and you may not want her anymore either.

Blu

[joejoe1]

HH,

The things I bolded are the same things that most LBS struggle with.

The things I italicized are action words, you must do those things. Most LBS have to do the same things. It's a constant theme. I have been here almost 2 years now and have seen the same story repeat over and over, just different characters. And having too much confidence is called being cocky! Being cocky over time can be very damaging. Examine that part of your life and reflect on how much damage you may have possibly caused. I had to call a lot of people to apologize after some deep self reflection. My cockiest was really me being a know it all, and ultimately I had a lot of insecurities about being wrong. Very defensive, nobody could tell me anything. A very UNATTRACTIVE trait.

In BLU post I bolded attract, well a lot of things we do as LBS are unattractive, and we have to become attractive again. So, by becoming AMOAFWL, you are ultimately becoming a very attractive person again. Pursing, lack of confidence, being cocky, manipulation, neediness, clingy, being the victim, defensiveness, insecure, and sad/angry are all unattractive. Do the opposite! Study validation and AS "detacting with LOVE". And put into practice Sandi's 2x4!

The words I underlined is the best POSSIBLE way to get your W back. This is the same for all LBS. You want your W to come back, you must let go and work on [[i]b]YOURSELF[/b[/i]]!

[HrtHsbnd]

Thank you!

I will make sure I do them

HH,

The things I bolded are the same things that most LBS struggle with.

The things I italicized are action words, you must do those things. Most LBS have to do the same things. It's a constant theme. I have been here almost 2 years now and have seen the same story repeat over and over, just different characters. And having too much confidence is called being cocky! Being cocky over time can be very damaging. Examine that part of your life and reflect on how much damage you may have possibly caused. I had to call a lot of people to apologize after some deep self reflection. My cockiest was really me being a know it all, and ultimately I had a lot of insecurities about being wrong. Very defensive, nobody could tell me anything. A very UNATTRACTIVE trait.

In BLU post I bolded attract, well a lot of things we do as LBS are unattractive, and we have to become attractive again. So, by becoming AMOAFWL, you are ultimately becoming a very attractive person again. Pursing, lack of confidence, being cocky, manipulation, neediness, clingy, being the victim, defensiveness, insecure, and sad/angry are all unattractive. Do the opposite! Study validation and AS "detacting with LOVE". And put into practice Sandi's 2x4!

The words I underlined is the best POSSIBLE way to get your W back. This is the same for all LBS. You want your W to come back, you must let go and work on [[i]b]YOURSELF[/b[/i]]!

[sandi2]

IMHO, the things that mostly set the WW from the WAW are the following:

The WW is the result of her holding unresolved resentment (anger) in her heart against her H. This resentment turns to feelings (and behavior) of disrespect toward her H. Anger and disrespect fuel her rebellion. In her wayward mindset, selfishness takes front & center and is her primary motivator. When she has an affair, leaves her H, or acts like GGW, lies, denies, and keeps a hidden agenda........it comes from these areas. The WW's heart can be described as cold & hard.

The WAW, IMHO, does not have the cold, selfish heart of the WW. She is not directed by selfishness. She does not have a hidden agenda that involves an affair or random sexual partners. You don't see her moral integrity dip, like you see in a WW. She doesn't go crazy, try to dress and act like a teenager, or act like GGW. She doesn't breakup the family out of sheer selfishness. She either leaves b/c her H is abusive; is imprisoned; involved in some type of illegal activity; is too controlling, jealous, etc; has an addiction........or something that pushes her to leave him in order to survive. In other words, her leaving can be seen as justifiable.

The MLCW is based on fear. It may be defined by some tragedy or abuse when she was growing up, where she received no therapy or loving support to help her deal with the experience. She tried to go on with her life, but at some point something happens to trigger her buried fear/anger that is linked with her past. Sometimes a recent death of someone close can trigger her fear of getting older and dying. Her overt behaviors resemble the WW.......but they are two different women.

These are three different women.........three different hearts.

[Traveler]

The WAW, IMHO, does not have the cold, selfish heart of the WW. She is not directed by selfishness. She does not have a hidden agenda that involves an affair or random sexual partners. You don't see her moral integrity dip, like you see in a WW. She doesn't go crazy, try to dress and act like a teenager, or act like GGW. She doesn't breakup the family out of sheer selfishness. She either leaves b/c her H is abusive; is imprisoned; involved in some type of illegal activity; is too controlling, jealous, etc; has an addiction........or something that pushes her to leave him in order to survive. In other words, her leaving can be seen as justifiable.

Thanks, Sandi. These descriptions should be pinned somewhere!

[sandi2]

I’m just not totally detached yet.

You don't have to be totally detached to drop the rope. It just makes it a little easier. Being detached does not mean you stop feeling love for her. I think I've seen you mention something about no longer caring, and that's not what we mean. You will probably always "care" about her, since she is the mother of your child. Just stop pursuing and trying to enforce particular feelings in her. Whether you realize it or can understand why........when a woman no longer feels desire & respect for a man, all his pursuing becomes unwanted pressure.

Would the idea of dating someone else make her mad or justify her actions?

I don't recommend that you date someone just to make your W jealous, b/c it doesn't get your focus off her and watching to see what type of reaction she'll have. I'm saying that you need to stop trying different approaches and/or techniques for the sole purpose of getting a desired reaction. One reason you are pursuing heavily is b/c you are watching her too much. Nothing "justifies" waywardness. That doesn't mean she won't twist it around and make herself appear justified.

I know you can’t fight emotions with logic, so if I emotionally detach from her, then that is obviously speaking to her emotions. But if I still seem attached to her then she won’t want me because the logical thing to do.

Wow! Talk about twisting things around!

Do you think I’m understanding that correctly?

No, I don't.

Finally, I don’t know if she is WAW or WW, but I feel like she’s more WAW based on what the MC has said. Does that change any of your advice?

No, b/c I learned a long time ago that it's the LBH that doesn't want to believe/accept that his wife is wayward.
You said you had read those links I posted, right? Did you not see your W in any of those posts? Look, it is not an affair that makes her wayward. If you read the first page of the first thread in those links, you would understand what I mean by that statement. She has already developed a wayward mindset before she engages in some type of affair. Having an affair is an act of rebellion against her H and their M. I'd guess that she's been showing lesser signs or degrees of rebellion for years......but you apparently did not recognize her reactions/behavior to you, as rebellion.

FWIW, I was very depressed, too, when I engaged in an EA.

Now, about what the MC says. Outside of religious type of writings, I don't find the word "wayward" used that much on line or in secular books. You can google it, and you'll mostly get Biblical scripture references. It's not a popular word to describe a wife these days, however, the definition of wayward fits her perfectly. You'll come closer to finding material under the topic of hard-hearted wife. IMHO, that definition does not completely cover the subject of a wayward wife. BTW, Michele Davis does not divide the WAW & WW into separate definitions, so you won't find WW in her book. Anyway, back to your MC. I see newcomers get confused when they are talking to counselors, friends, relatives, reading dozens of books, and joining various forums. All that advice from various sources is not going to match. So, you may have to decide who or what source to follow.

Do I just get up and leave MC when she starts to get angry and go off? I do hang up on her every now and then when she gets angry, but I feel like she does that to me more! That’s why I feel like she DB’s as much as I do!

No.........if you insist on using a MC before your WW is ready to reconcile for the right reasons, then allow the counselor to be in control of the sessions. If you get up and walk out, then why attend? There is a lot about DBing you have to learn, and most people don't try to get it all said in one post (except may me).

If you'll study personal boundaries, then you can set one about not continuing a phone call when you are being disrespected by the caller. Boundaries are to protect you. They are not about controlling the other person.


BTW, I've been meaning to ask what you are doing to GAL. Can you share a list of activities you do to get a life?

[sandi2]

Sorry for so many posts at once. Just trying to catch up a little.

I get your point, but will there ever be a time that I just decide to walk away and really be done with it?

I feel like I have all these things I want to say to her but can’t because she’s not willing to listen to them.

You and your W are in separate time frames. By the time she decides she wants to work on a relationship with you, it may be too late and you've move on with your life and have no desire to risk another possible heartache from her. We see it quite often.

All these things you want to say to her is your urgency to pursue. I get it. What you haven't quite accepted yet, is that DBing a WW goes against what your emotions are dictating. One reason I think more marriages are not saved is b/c the LBH takes too long before he finally drops the rope, and has nothing left to give when she wants to try again.

When have I given her too much breathing room?

You can't give her too much breathing room. This woman doesn't want you. She is not the girl you married. You are pressuring someone who has no desire/loving feelings for you. You are either afraid to give her plenty of space and time without you..........or else you are a controller. Look, maybe before you married her you chased her and she liked it. That's how the game is played before marriage. However, the reason it worked is b/c she wanted it. If she was repelled by you........there would have been a different ending. Do you get what I'm saying? What works in a WW sitch is for the LBH to dump her...........at least, it appears that he is through and moving on with his life. (I hope you won't ask me what that looks like, b/c then I'll think you've never broken up with a girl you didn't want anymore.) The LBH fears that the picture he gives of "dumping her" will give her what she wants or somehow discourages the chance of reconciling. That's the crazy part that a lot of guys don't get. Once the H emotionally lets go, she senses it and it draws her toward him.

She'll know when you stop all the pressuring techniques you've been using. She'll know when you aren't obviously interested in every move she makes or every word she utters. Don't wait around, expecting some detached feelings to suddenly show up. Act as if you are already detached. Do the action and let the feeling catch up.

I agree with you and boundaries need to happen. I just don’t know that it’s my place yet because she’s not willing to listen to me.

Wait.........it has nothing to do with you talking and her listening. This is not a relationship discussion. As for it being your place.....You can only make protective boundaries around yourself. It's like an invisible shield around you. You decide what type of bad treatment you won't tolerate from other people. If someone does not respect you, then you have to make a move. You may decide to hang up, or walk away.......but you are always the one who does the responding action when another person disrespects you. It's up to you to protect your feelings. And, I can tell you the only way to enforce a boundary is if your responding action is a consequence to the offender. Otherwise, they don't learn to take you seriously, and they continue repeating the disrespect. But you decide what you'll do. You don't have a discussion. You don't navigate. I'd advise you not to say or do anything, until you have read the homework on personal boundary setting.... and how to enforce those boundaries if dishonored. Think of property boundaries. They are there for a reason, and should someone disregard our property lines, then we take some type of action to protect what is valuable to us.

We are going to spend 1 session in MC this week talking about Coparenting and then go right back to our marriage, so I hope that the stuff with her parents comes out then. Her parents are there ALL the time.

Your W is not in one accord with you. She blames you for her unhappiness. Even if she didn't want her folks at the house, her stubborn pride with not cooperate with you wanting to approach the in-laws about leaving. This is simply another example of why MC isn't usually successful with reconciliation in WW cases. Now, should she decide to start doing the right thing, feel remorse for her behavior and want to save the M......then MC can help. Right now, she's not in the right frame of mind.

I am going to tell her that I would be willing to talk to her parents, it’s something I should’ve done a long time ago. I just didn’t think it would get to this point. No, she lives at our home with her parents and I moved out.

Yikes! That's a really bad situation. Everyone lives in your house, but you. I suggest you wait until you consult with a lawyer as to where you stand legally on this one. I mean, once you leave and she claims it was voluntary........IDK. So, check with the lawyer ASAP.

So is it common for WAW to not want to work on the marriage?

I think it's more common for the WW to not want to work on the marriage. She didn't become wayward overnight. It took her a while. The good news is that it can turn around. In order for it to turn around, she has to show respect for you. She can behave respectfully, even if she doesn't feel it. That's why I want you to get the right information and stop applying ineffective methods. You need the right tools in order to get the right results.

[HrtHsbnd]

Thanks Sandi!

No, b/c I learned a long time ago that it's the LBH that doesn't want to believe/accept that his wife is wayward.
You said you had read those links I posted, right? Did you not see your W in any of those posts? Look, it is not an affair that makes her wayward. If you read the first page of the first thread in those links, you would understand what I mean by that statement. She has already developed a wayward mindset before she engages in some type of affair. Having an affair is an act of rebellion against her H and their M. I'd guess that she's been showing lesser signs or degrees of rebellion for years......but you apparently did not recognize her reactions/behavior to you, as rebellion.

FWIW, I was very depressed, too, when I engaged in an EA.

Now, about what the MC says. Outside of religious type of writings, I don't find the word "wayward" used that much on line or in secular books. You can google it, and you'll mostly get Biblical scripture references. It's not a popular word to describe a wife these days, however, the definition of wayward fits her perfectly. You'll come closer to finding material under the topic of hard-hearted wife. IMHO, that definition does not completely cover the subject of a wayward wife. BTW, Michele Davis does not divide the WAW & WW into separate definitions, so you won't find WW in her book. Anyway, back to your MC. I see newcomers get confused when they are talking to counselors, friends, relatives, reading dozens of books, and joining various forums. All that advice from various sources is not going to match. So, you may have to decide who or what source to follow.

I honestly don’t know if she is a WAW or WW. I feel like some of both descriptions fit her. She has had depression and anxiety since we met, so it’s not something that just started. I can see why most LBS’s don’t want their wife to be WW. I don’t want her to be either, but I feel like most in here think it’s my opinion she is instead of what the facts say. In addition, the people closest to us feel that she isn’t, either.

She is mean, shows no respect and doesn’t want to work on our marriage, in addition to the red flags in the other thread. However, she is the one that set up MC and she is the one actively going. We have spoken about my concerns in MC and she has convinced both of us that she isn’t doing anything because she is so done with men. She blames my feelings on my ego because I couldn’t believe she just wouldn’t want to be with me, so it has to be someone else.

She may be right, too

No.........if you insist on using a MC before your WW is ready to reconcile for the right reasons, then allow the counselor to be in control of the sessions. If you get up and walk out, then why attend? There is a lot about DBing you have to learn, and most people don't try to get it all said in one post (except may me).

If you'll study personal boundaries, then you can set one about not continuing a phone call when you are being disrespected by the caller. Boundaries are to protect you. They are not about controlling the other person.

I have been studying them and thank you for telling me more about them. MC wasn’t my idea because I didn’t feel that she was ready for it yet. She found the MC and he is amazing! He feels there really is no reason we can t work this out, we’ve just got to give it time and she has to miss me.

That’s really what I feel like I need help with. How do I make her miss me? What are the most effective ways of making her miss me?

BTW, I've been meaning to ask what you are doing to GAL. Can you share a list of activities you do to get a life?

I go to the driving range almost every night to get some steam off.
I try to walk about the block and go to the gym.
When I have my S, we stay busy so that he has fun and it takes both our minds off things.
I am trying to join a cooking class and baseball team
I also try to read and do a lot of research

[HrtHsbnd]

Sorry for so many posts at once. Just trying to catch up a little.

Thank you! I always appreciate your posts!

You and your W are in separate time frames. By the time she decides she wants to work on a relationship with you, it may be too late and you've move on with your life and have no desire to risk another possible heartache from her. We see it quite often.

All these things you want to say to her is your urgency to pursue. I get it. What you haven't quite accepted yet, is that DBing a WW goes against what your emotions are dictating. One reason I think more marriages are not saved is b/c the LBH takes too long before he finally drops the rope, and has nothing left to give when she wants to try again.

This is a very interesting point, even though we don’t know if she is WW or not. I think even the posters here have said that I’m portraying that but that doesn’t mean that she has been anywhere close to being WW. They agree with our friends and family, too.

You are so right, though. We are on separate timeframes. I feel that I have been through a lot. While I am truly sorry for how I treated the 8 months before BD, she has treated me so much worse since then. I truly am trying to drop the rope. I feel that it has taken me awhile though to get to this point. I am just afraid that I am moving on and don’t want her in my life, even though I strongly feel that’s not what’s best for my son or our family.

I feel I have done EVERYTHING to work on our marriage and everyone including the MC seems to agree. I feel that she has done nothing and I mean NOTHING and that’s what hurts so much. She was reading books on webchat with our S and said she wanted to read like a family. I got somewhat aggravated and said that we are NOT a family and I didn’t want to pretend like we were. I didn’t want our S to hear do I spelled it out.

Then I took him to a baseball game and he had such a fun time. I feel he truly made lifelong memories that evening. I invited her and instead of immediately refusing to go, she waited about 18 hours before she declined. I don’t know what that means, but I hope it’s because she is thinking about it and getting opinions.

You can't give her too much breathing room. This woman doesn't want you. She is not the girl you married. You are pressuring someone who has no desire/loving feelings for you. You are either afraid to give her plenty of space and time without you..........or else you are a controller. Look, maybe before you married her you chased her and she liked it. That's how the game is played before marriage. However, the reason it worked is b/c she wanted it. If she was repelled by you........there would have been a different ending. Do you get what I'm saying? What works in a WW sitch is for the LBH to dump her...........at least, it appears that he is through and moving on with his life. (I hope you won't ask me what that looks like, b/c then I'll think you've never broken up with a girl you didn't want anymore.) The LBH fears that the picture he gives of "dumping her" will give her what she wants or somehow discourages the chance of reconciling. That's the crazy part that a lot of guys don't get. Once the H emotionally lets go, she senses it and it draws her toward him.

She'll know when you stop all the pressuring techniques you've been using. She'll know when you aren't obviously interested in every move she makes or every word she utters. Don't wait around, expecting some detached feelings to suddenly show up. Act as if you are already detached. Do the action and let the feeling catch up.

Again, you are so right! I have been trying to do this these past few weeks. I feel I have gotten off the emotional rollercoaster.

I don’t feel that it’s fair to assume that I know how to ‘dump’ my wife, though. While I have broken up with women in the past, I feel that this is a completely different situation because she’s my wife and easily the longest relationship I’ve ever had. Not to mention we have a family together. This is why I don’t want to date anyone, which is usually what I do when I move on.

Quite frankly, I’m thinking about giving her my ring back and just being done with it. But again, I’m not sure that’s the right thing to do or not.

Any suggestions on how to dump her in this situation?

Wait.........it has nothing to do with you talking and her listening. This is not a relationship discussion. As for it being your place.....You can only make protective boundaries around yourself. It's like an invisible shield around you. You decide what type of bad treatment you won't tolerate from other people. If someone does not respect you, then you have to make a move. You may decide to hang up, or walk away.......but you are always the one who does the responding action when another person disrespects you. It's up to you to protect your feelings. And, I can tell you the only way to enforce a boundary is if your responding action is a consequence to the offender. Otherwise, they don't learn to take you seriously, and they continue repeating the disrespect. But you decide what you'll do. You don't have a discussion. You don't navigate. I'd advise you not to say or do anything, until you have read the homework on personal boundary setting.... and how to enforce those boundaries if dishonored. Think of property boundaries. They are there for a reason, and should someone disregard our property lines, then we take some type of action to protect what is valuable to us.

I am trying to remember this as I am communicating with her. These boundaries are for me. She has put certain boundaries in place for her, so I don’t know why I can’t have some in place for me.

Her talking about how she wants to play house is DEFINITELY one of my boundaries.

Your W is not in one accord with you. She blames you for her unhappiness. Even if she didn't want her folks at the house, her stubborn pride with not cooperate with you wanting to approach the in-laws about leaving. This is simply another example of why MC isn't usually successful with reconciliation in WW cases. Now, should she decide to start doing the right thing, feel remorse for her behavior and want to save the M......then MC can help. Right now, she's not in the right frame of mind.

Since we don’t know if she is a WAW or a WW, I don’t know how to apply this advice. I see your point, though. I suggested in MC to apologize to her parents and she REALLY seemed to warm up to the idea. I think it shellshocked her, honestly. She is very stubborn and I hope that she will be in one accord with me soon.

She feels that she is doing the right thing. So much so that I have actually had to ask people we both know and I trust whether or not I’m misunderstanding the situation. I have been told by all of them that I am doing the right things and thinking the right way to get my family back. She does not feel she has done anything wrong, other than to take a huge listing away from me and she does not seem to want to save the M. She says her going to MC is the way she’s showing me she is working on the marriage, though she calls it coparenting.

Yikes! That's a really bad situation. Everyone lives in your house, but you. I suggest you wait until you consult with a lawyer as to where you stand legally on this one. I mean, once you leave and she claims it was voluntary........IDK. So, check with the lawyer ASAP.

Yes it is a bad situation.

I already left and came back and had to leave again based on the courts.

I think it's more common for the WW to not want to work on the marriage. She didn't become wayward overnight. It took her a while. The good news is that it can turn around. In order for it to turn around, she has to show respect for you. She can behave respectfully, even if she doesn't feel it. That's why I want you to get the right information and stop applying ineffective methods. You need the right tools in order to get the right results.

Again, everyone here and friends and family feel she is a WAW, except you and I. So I’m not sure that she actually is a WW.

She should start showing respect, as I deserve her highest respect.

Thank you for looking out for me. I look forward to reading your responses!

[HrtHsbnd]

She let me know today that she is seeing our MC as her IC about 3-4 times a month. She wouldn’t say what she was working with him on, but she did say it was to work through her feelings.

I told her I was proud of her and I would support her through it. She seemed very relieved that I felt that way and I encouraged her to keep going.

I hope this is a good sign.

[HrtHsbnd]

I would love to get more advice from anyone.

[TBSakaJ9]

I don't think it changes anything. Keep DBing and doing your thing.

[LH19]

H,

Unfortunately it could very well be her IC pushing her towards D if that is what will make her happy.

[AnotherStander]

She let me know today that she is seeing our MC as her IC about 3-4 times a month. She wouldn’t say what she was working with him on, but she did say it was to work through her feelings.

I told her I was proud of her and I would support her through it. She seemed very relieved that I felt that way and I encouraged her to keep going.

I hope this is a good sign.

IC will tell her what she wants to hear. If she wants D, then she will come home feeling like the IC "vindicated" that choice. That's just how IC's are, they are there to listen and validate, not to steer the direction the patient goes in.

[HrtHsbnd]

While I understand your point, he is also our MC and he is very pro marriage. He talks about that on every visit and he knows how I feel about it.

She let me know today that she is seeing our MC as her IC about 3-4 times a month. She wouldn’t say what she was working with him on, but she did say it was to work through her feelings.

I told her I was proud of her and I would support her through it. She seemed very relieved that I felt that way and I encouraged her to keep going.

I hope this is a good sign.

IC will tell her what she wants to hear. If she wants D, then she will come home feeling like the IC "vindicated" that choice. That's just how IC's are, they are there to listen and validate, not to steer the direction the patient goes in.

[TBSakaJ9]

Again, I don't think it changes anything.

In my experience, when I was in IC, they just asked me probing questions and just listened to what I had to say. They helped me sort out my thoughts, never steered me heavily in one direction or offered their personal insight. They just agreed and listened. Tried to get me to look deeper into why I was feeling the way I did.

[HrtHsbnd]

Thank you everyone. I really enjoy getting your advice and thoughts.

Things had been going pretty well for a few days last week. She talked about wanting to be ‘like’ a family during webchat. I immediately turned that down and explained that we are not a family and I didn’t want to pretend like we were. I was irritated at that and I know my emotions showed. I hope I did the right thing.

In addition, these past 2 days have been horrible. She has been so cold and just mean on webchat.

I am trying to get off her emotional rollercoaster and I feel that I am. I just don’t engage when she is in that mood. She sent a ridiculously petty text accusing me of not doing something, to which I just responded I’m sorry she felt that way. I also told her there have been several times that she wasn’t doing the same thing and I would appreciate her understanding in this matter.

Again, I hope that was the right thing to do.

I just don’t understand why she has the highs and then the lows so much and it frustrates me!

[AnotherStander]

While I understand your point, he is also our MC and he is very pro marriage. He talks about that on every visit and he knows how I feel about it.

I'm just saying not to get your hopes up, a lot of LBS's come here thinking IC or MC is going to turn things around and it never, ever does. Once you find your way here your W is so checked out that no amount of counseling is going to make a difference. All she wants right now is validation. I'll give you an example of how it played out for me, my XW and I went to MC (this was before I found DB'ing) and the C put us through all kinds of communication exercises and well and truly tried to get my XW to see the value in our marriage and the reasons to stay together. All my XW could say in response is "I'm just done and I don't know why, I can't explain it." At one point the C said "well maybe you need a trial separation to see how it goes" and wow, my XW suddenly perked up and got excited- "yes that sounds like a great idea!!!" So even though the MC was pro-marriage and was trying, in the end my XW only heard what she wanted to hear and she used it as an excuse to leave (I mean after all, the MC said it was a "good idea").

She talked about wanting to be ‘like’ a family during webchat. I immediately turned that down and explained that we are not a family and I didn’t want to pretend like we were. I was irritated at that and I know my emotions showed. I hope I did the right thing.

Try not to show emotions but yes, telling her you wouldn't allow that is the right thing. She just wants to cake-eat- pursue her single life while playing family when it suits her. It's a fantasy most WAS's engage in.

In addition, these past 2 days have been horrible. She has been so cold and just mean on webchat.

First why is that horrible, that's her problem not yours. Second why are you having web chats with her. If you're talking to her in person or on phone or whatever and she is being "horrible" then just tell her you're not going to engage if she's going to be like that, and if she continues it then say the convo is done and hang up or leave.

I just don’t engage when she is in that mood.

Good!

I just don’t understand why she has the highs and then the lows so much and it frustrates me!

Who knows, it could be some kind of chemical imbalance in her body, but the bottom line is that's what you're dealing with and it's not going to change anytime soon. So you have to act accordingly. Time, space, detachment!

[sandi2]

Things had been going pretty well for a few days last week. She talked about wanting to be ‘like’ a family during webchat. I immediately turned that down and explained that we are not a family and I didn’t want to pretend like we were. I was irritated at that and I know my emotions showed. I hope I did the right thing.

I don't understand what it is she wants you to do that would be considered behaving like a family. You said you had to be there during the chat. What else does she want? My guess is that she wants the three of you to talk, not just her and the child. I think you wanted it, too, in the beginning.

When she sends petty texts, don't respond if there is no question. The more attention pettiness gets, the more it shows up.

How is GAL going this week? What are your plans for the weekend?

[HrtHsbnd]

We been having what I feel are some good days and then we turn around and bad days. I just don’t get it.

In therapy I told her that I could always tell what mood she was in because I felt when she was sweet and talkative during webchats with our son, she was in a good mood. However when she was quiet, she was in a bad mood. It’s really funny because she said that I was the one that put her in those moods by my actions, though I’m not even talking to her before we webchat. In addition, she said she feels the same thing about me. It’s weird.

In addition, she was pushing for more bills to be separated this weekend. Yet when I told her I felt we were right back to square one, she said we were not. She said she was going to counseling with me, etc and was adamant about scheduling our next appointment. Yet this morning she pointed out that it was Coparenting and not MC. I’m just not interested in coparenting, as I feel it’s pointless with her. So I thanked her for making the appointment, but I told her I would not be attending coparenting, as I was only interested in MC.

I hope I did the right thing.

[HrtHsbnd]

Things had been going pretty well for a few days last week. She talked about wanting to be ‘like’ a family during webchat. I immediately turned that down and explained that we are not a family and I didn’t want to pretend like we were. I was irritated at that and I know my emotions showed. I hope I did the right thing.

I don't understand what it is she wants you to do that would be considered behaving like a family. You said you had to be there during the chat. What else does she want? My guess is that she wants the three of you to talk, not just her and the child. I think you wanted it, too, in the beginning.

When she sends petty texts, don't respond if there is no question. The more attention pettiness gets, the more it shows up.

How is GAL going this week? What are your plans for the weekend?

I just saw this on here, so I’m sorry for not responding.

Your guess is right. She just wanted to read books to our son with me on the phone, but that’s about it.

I try not to respond to petty texts, but she feels that a lot of mine are petty and won’t respond to them. I stopped texting her altogether unless she texts me. Even then, I’ll only respond with something I need to say.

GAL is going well, I think. I try to do some sport every day. I recently joined a gym, so I’m working out harder in addition to my daily neighborhood walk. I truly feel scatterbrained with everything going on right now, but I’m trying to push through it and do the best I can every day.

I really don’t want to go to coparenting therapy, though as I feel it just feeds her decision to leave. I don’t want to play along with it.

[sandi2]

Your guess is right. She just wanted to read books to our son with me on the phone, but that’s about it.

She's hijacking your time with your son. She's the one who is tearing up the family, but she expects you to sit there and listen while she reads a book to the child? It's unrealistic, spoiled, and manipulative. When your child is staying with you.....that's your time to spend with him, not hers. That's how divorce looks! That's what she needs to see now. She wants to hold you hostage while she intrudes on daddy & son time. Unbelievable!

GAL is going well, I think. I try to do some sport every day. I recently joined a gym, so I’m working out harder in addition to my daily neighborhood walk. I truly feel scatterbrained with everything going on right now, but I’m trying to push through it and do the best I can every day.

I really don’t want to go to coparenting therapy, though as I feel it just feeds her decision to leave. I don’t want to play along with it.

Well, if this is an example of what the therapist is suggesting, I don't blame you for not wanting to attend.

[HrtHsbnd]

Thanks for the reply Sandi!

So in MC, our therapist told me to stop sending negative texts about what this counseling is for. She also wants me to be more consistent with everything. I feel I already am, but not to her.

So since she is really sensitive to the negative texts, I decided to send her one sweet text in the morning and evening. I spoke to her about it on webchat and she told me it was a lot, but that she was processing it and thinking about it. I asked her if she wanted me to keep doing it or stop and she said no that it was nice and I could keep doing it if I wanted too. She told me to not get upset if she didn’t always respond, though. I told her I wouldn’t.

I hope this is the right thing to do.

[HrtHsbnd]

Bump

[SteveLW]

Hrt, I know this was directed more at sandi than me. But wow.

I want you to do an exercise. Read your above post from 3 hours ago. I want you to read it as a 3rd party. Put aside your bias and your emotional attachment to the post, and just read it. Then answer these questions:

Does the post command respect from the OP's W?
Does the sending of sweet texts constitute pressure and pursuit?
Does asking her if she wanted the OP to keep doing the sweet tests or stop command respect? or does it come off as pathetic and weak?
Does the OP's W's response of "told me to not get upset if she didn’t always respond" suggest that the OP's W respects him? Or feels sorry for him?

Remember, answer these as objectively as you possibly can!

[petri]

Hrt, I'm not quite sure if my brain had a malfunction or what happened. But did I just read that you send her sweet texts twice a day? Why? Steve gave you an excellent exercise. Please do it.

[AnotherStander]

So in MC, our therapist told me to stop sending negative texts about what this counseling is for. She also wants me to be more consistent with everything. I feel I already am, but not to her.

So since she is really sensitive to the negative texts, I decided to send her one sweet text in the morning and evening. I spoke to her about it on webchat and she told me it was a lot, but that she was processing it and thinking about it. I asked her if she wanted me to keep doing it or stop and she said no that it was nice and I could keep doing it if I wanted too. She told me to not get upset if she didn’t always respond, though. I told her I wouldn’t.

I hope this is the right thing to do.

Well you're bouncing from one extreme to another and your W is probably really confused by it. This is the problem with people in the throes of having been BD'd- they try ANYTHING and EVERYTHING to "put things back to normal" when what they should be doing is NOTHING. They'll try to "nice" the WAS back, then "mean" them back if that doesn't work, then "nice" them back again when mean doesn't work, and everything inbetween. As Cadet is fond of saying, doing nothing is doing something. Doing nothing is actually very powerful after BD. The problem for the LBS is doing nothing feels like nothing, and it scares them because they think they need to take action.

I don't know what you mean by "sweet" texts but I am in 100% agreement with your C that all negative talking/ texting MUST stop. That is the biggest 180 any LBS can make. But it's got to be a consistent 180 over a long period of time before the WAS will believe it's real. Polite is fine, but be careful not to get too lovey in texts as that is relationship pressure. Your goal is to remove all pressure.

[Traveler]

Sorry, hrthusband, what Steve85 wrote is what I was thinking. Glad you were able to put a halt on the negative texts. Sometimes I write negatives things here, and then feel less need to say them aloud. The other tools I've used are meditation, exercising, and gardening. Lots of chopping plants!

[SteveLW]

bump Hrt, I am anxiously awaiting your response to my exercise.

[HrtHsbnd]

Good points on all of them Steve. I can see your point of view and I agree with it. I think I was saying those things to her because I thought we were heading in a good place.

In fact, I really thought we were on the road to reconciliation. I think we still are, as she seems to be having more good days than bad now. However, she is still dividing up our bills and saying that she is only following the order because she doesn’t want to get in trouble. She asked for my assistance with her bills and I told her I would not help her as that is not my responsibility anymore.

She is talking more about a future, but is still all over the place with it. For example, she has said many times that she doesn’t know if she’ll ever forgive me, but then wants to see consistency for it to happen. I asked her in what ways can I show you consistency, so she said in communication and coparenting with our son. So I’ve been doing that for awhile now. Then she says she doesn’t know what it will take for her to forgive me. She says that to have any relationship with her will start by being the best coparent to her and working with her. Once I do that then she might work on more.


I haven’t been on in a few days because things seemed to be going really well for us. We were talking more and building that emotional connection again or so I thought. I had to send her L some legal papers that we both have to do and that have to be in within a certain time. I told her I sent them and she just got really upset and mad. I guess it’s because we were both comfortable with where we were and didn’t think about any of the legal stuff. In fact, I thought she was pausing everything or even stopping it.

The next day on webchat she told me she wasn’t upset about the papers because that’s part of the process. She was upset at my timing if telling her about it. I tried to listen and validate. I did try to convince her that it wasn’t my fault and I had to follow the orders. The next evening on webchat she was great. I even told her I liked her outfit. We had the best conversation we’ve had since this started. It was about a 40 min conversation and I don’t think either of us wanted to get off the phone.

Then last night on webchat, it was just horrible. She got so irritated at me when I told her that I liked her outfit again. She immediately shut our conversation down and attacked me through text when we got off. Again, I just listened and validated I used words of encouragement and support too. I told her that she just keeps pushing me further away and I’m almost done.

I feel that was important because I’ve been the rock so far and I’m just getting to a point where I’m not sure I want to be subject to her riding her emotional rollercoaster anymore.

Thoughts?

Hrt, I know this was directed more at sandi than me. But wow.

I want you to do an exercise. Read your above post from 3 hours ago. I want you to read it as a 3rd party. Put aside your bias and your emotional attachment to the post, and just read it. Then answer these questions:

Does the post command respect from the OP's W?
Does the sending of sweet texts constitute pressure and pursuit?
Does asking her if she wanted the OP to keep doing the sweet tests or stop command respect? or does it come off as pathetic and weak?
Does the OP's W's response of "told me to not get upset if she didn’t always respond" suggest that the OP's W respects him? Or feels sorry for him?

Remember, answer these as objectively as you possibly can!

[HrtHsbnd]

I guess that’s my mistake. I’ve left her alone this entire time and am just getting irritated it’s not moving along quicker. I haven’t been away from my wife for longer than a week and I’ve been away from her now 4 months.

I miss her and I’m ready to work on our relationship again. I know detachment detachment. I’m really trying but it’s been very hard because I know myself and I know that if I detach with love, I’ll be done and ready to move forward with another person. I want my marriage and I want to be able to tell my son when he’s older that I did everything I could to save his family.

I’m just at the anger stage of grief, I guess. I am a man of action and I want this to keep moving towards reconciliation. But she just doesn’t seem ready. She has been saying that she doesn’t know what she wants, which is an improvement from a divorce and that’s all she wanted a month ago.

She goes back and forth on saying she doesn’t know if she will ever forgive me. She doesn’t know if she still loves me and doesn’t know if she even wants to stay in the marriage. She doesn’t know what she needs from me to feel this way again. She says consistency in actions, but changes her mind there too.

She is just all over the place. I have no idea what that means or if that’s even normal. Why does she go from hot to cold so quickly too?!!

This is all just very frustrating!

So in MC, our therapist told me to stop sending negative texts about what this counseling is for. She also wants me to be more consistent with everything. I feel I already am, but not to her.

So since she is really sensitive to the negative texts, I decided to send her one sweet text in the morning and evening. I spoke to her about it on webchat and she told me it was a lot, but that she was processing it and thinking about it. I asked her if she wanted me to keep doing it or stop and she said no that it was nice and I could keep doing it if I wanted too. She told me to not get upset if she didn’t always respond, though. I told her I wouldn’t.

I hope this is the right thing to do.

Well you're bouncing from one extreme to another and your W is probably really confused by it. This is the problem with people in the throes of having been BD'd- they try ANYTHING and EVERYTHING to "put things back to normal" when what they should be doing is NOTHING. They'll try to "nice" the WAS back, then "mean" them back if that doesn't work, then "nice" them back again when mean doesn't work, and everything inbetween. As Cadet is fond of saying, doing nothing is doing something. Doing nothing is actually very powerful after BD. The problem for the LBS is doing nothing feels like nothing, and it scares them because they think they need to take action.

I don't know what you mean by "sweet" texts but I am in 100% agreement with your C that all negative talking/ texting MUST stop. That is the biggest 180 any LBS can make. But it's got to be a consistent 180 over a long period of time before the WAS will believe it's real. Polite is fine, but be careful not to get too lovey in texts as that is relationship pressure. Your goal is to remove all pressure.

[Traveler]

I’m really trying but it’s been very hard because I know myself and I know that if I detach with love, I’ll be done and ready to move forward with another person.

HrtHsbnd, these problems we have interacting positively with our partners for even short durations are I think what that "gift of time" saying is getting at. I'm enjoying the self work at least.

[sandi2]

I think I was saying those things to her because I thought we were heading in a good place.

So, it wasn't b/c the MC told you to stop sending negative texts?

In fact, I really thought we were on the road to reconciliation.

I must have missed something.

I think we still are, as she seems to be having more good days than bad now.

Maybe you should explain exactly what you mean by she seems to be having more good days than bad now. Are you referring to the verbal interactions between the two of you? Do you sense her attitude is better? Are her actions indicating she wants to reconcile?

For example, she has said many times that she doesn’t know if she’ll ever forgive me, but then wants to see consistency for it to happen.

Forgive you for what?

I asked her in what ways can I show you consistency, so she said in communication and coparenting with our son. So I’ve been doing that for awhile now. Then she says she doesn’t know what it will take for her to forgive me. She says that to have any relationship with her will start by being the best coparent to her and working with her. Once I do that then she might work on more.

To be blunt.......she is blowing smoke up your rear. Look, she is using all this co-parenting b.s. as her ticket to keep you in the hot seat. I dare say that her view of you communicating and co-parenting with her, is not the basic rules of communication needed for co-parenting one child. One example is how she wants you to sit and listen to her read stories to him, when he's with you in your house. IMHO, that is not realistic when the parents are living in a physical separation. Just b/c she labels it part of co-parenting or communication, doesn't make it so. I think she may be wanting to go a bit extreme under the heading of co-parenting. Since when do you have to measure up to her standards of co-parenting and communicating. I mean, by reading what she told you, it sounds as if she's holding it over your head. Has she threatened to fight you for child custody or something?

Correct me if I am thinking of another sitch, but didn't the MC sessions start with the purpose of co-parenting? I mean, this has been her thing, hasn't it? She doesn't want to work on the MR, so after five months, I would think the co-parenting subject would have been covered by now. Truth is, you didn't attend for the purpose of co-parenting. You went for the purpose of reconciling your M, and she has been stringing you along all this time.

The next day on webchat she told me she wasn’t upset about the papers because that’s part of the process. She was upset at my timing if telling her about it. I tried to listen and validate. I did try to convince her that it wasn’t my fault and I had to follow the orders.

I suggest you stop trying to convince of anything, especially about yourself. She keeps pulling your strings, and you are dancing around like her puppet. She says you aren't communicating enough, and you jump up and dance. She says you need to co-parent in the ways she wants, and you jump up and dance. She throws just enough crumbs about how she might work on something more, if you do things like she wants.........and you jump up and dance to her tune. You say you are an alpha male, but from what I can see, she's the one who is clearly in charge.

Then last night on webchat, it was just horrible. She got so irritated at me when I told her that I liked her outfit again. She immediately shut our conversation down and attacked me through text when we got off. Again, I just listened and validated I used words of encouragement and support too. I told her that she just keeps pushing me further away and I’m almost done.

It was horrible b/c you decided it is horrible whenever she gets angry at you. You allow her moods or quick anger to determine if the day is good or horrible. When she got irritated and shut down the webchat, then it should have ended there, as for as you were concerned. You should have made a mental note that you wouldn't compliment her outfits, and gone on with your evening. You should have ignored her text attack, instead of responding. Clearly, you do not have boundaries in place and allow verbal attacks. The guys here may not agree with me, and they may say you should validate when she attacks......but IMHO, this is not how you deal with a disrespectful wife. Okay, so she didn't like you complementing her outfit, what did you say that made her mad enough to shut down the conversation? The only time a woman doesn't like a complement is when it comes from someone that disgusts her, or it is putting emotional pressure on her, or makes her feel uncomfortable by the implications. I suggest you don't compliment her again, for a very long time. I also suggest you set some boundaries in place.

I told her that she just keeps pushing me further away and I’m almost done.

I feel that was important because I’ve been the rock so far and I’m just getting to a point where I’m not sure I want to be subject to her riding her emotional rollercoaster anymore.

I think you both have been guilty of trying to emotionally control the other one. In so many words, she warns you, then you warn her......around & around the merry wheel goes. Until you decide your self respect is most important, then I think you will continue on the ride. Not to oversimplify, but a lot of the problems in this sitch would be resolved if you seriously decided that you will not be disrespected without consequences. You need to treat her in a respectful manner, too, if possible. Know the difference in showing respect.....cowing down......accommodating......and pursuing. You need to know where to draw lines. You don't chase after someone who has just disrespected you. That's how I see your actions after she attacked you. As long as she can attack you for complimenting her, and she gets rewarded..........when do you think she'll change that type of action? She gets mad, pouts or throws a tantrum.......and you are there with soothing words, supporting and encouraging her. Hows that working?

I'm not saying you should act ugly or hateful. There is a way that a husband can teach his W that he won't tolerate bad behavior. He can show firmness without being angry or mean. He can show strength without emotionally pressuring her. He can demonstrate his love, without being a wuss.

Newcomers often remind me of new converts trying interpret scripture. It takes spiritual discernment for it to make sense........and especially when it comes to application to one's life. I think you are trying to use advice you've received from various sources, but you are struggling with discernment. That's JMHO. ((hugs))

[HrtHsbnd]

So my W wants to say that being in coparenting will help us build our communication, trust and consistency enough that she might think about working on our marriage.

She said during the time I was upset with her, she was the only one working on things. So now it’s my turn.

Thoughts?

[joejoe1]

HH,

Sounds and smells like gaslighting to me. She still wants you on that rope. Let it go, so you can see her motives logically. If she wanted to work on the M, she would put in the efforts and show the actions of a person ready to fix y'all relationship.

[Traveler]

HrtHusband, I've had a healthy co-parenting relationship with my ex-wife for two kids since my son was two. It requires minimal communication.. probably 30 minutes each quarter and 5 minutes each week.

There is not a whole lot you have to agree on. I'm with Sandi on:

I dare say that her view of you communicating and co-parenting with her, is not the basic rules of communication needed for co-parenting one child. Just b/c she labels it part of co-parenting or communication, doesn't make it so. I think she may be wanting to go a bit extreme under the heading of co-parenting. Since when do you have to measure up to her standards of co-parenting..

[SteveLW]

I just listened and validated I used words of encouragement and support too. I told her that she just keeps pushing me further away and I’m almost done.

Huh? Those two sentences are contradictory.

[SteveLW]

So my W wants to say that being in coparenting will help us build our communication, trust and consistency enough that she might think about working on our marriage.

She said during the time I was upset with her, she was the only one working on things. So now it’s my turn.

Thoughts?

WORDS WORDS WORDS

Believe nothing she says. She says what is expedient to get what she wants at the moment. Do not be manipulated.

[HrtHsbnd]

Good point.

I’ve tried to just stay calm and continue to lovingly detach. It’s been very hard to do.

I just listened and validated I used words of encouragement and support too. I told her that she just keeps pushing me further away and I’m almost done.

Huh? Those two sentences are contradictory.

[HrtHsbnd]

I agree, but what is she trying to manipulate me to do?

Also, she said that in MC. From what I’ve read on here our MC isn’t anything like what everyone else is going through. This is more like an intense MC. He is very, very good.

So my W wants to say that being in coparenting will help us build our communication, trust and consistency enough that she might think about working on our marriage.

She said during the time I was upset with her, she was the only one working on things. So now it’s my turn.

Thoughts?

WORDS WORDS WORDS

Believe nothing she says. She says what is expedient to get what she wants at the moment. Do not be manipulated.

[HrtHsbnd]

I think I was saying those things to her because I thought we were heading in a good place.

Maybe you should explain exactly what you mean by she seems to be having more good days than bad now. Are you referring to the verbal interactions between the two of you? Do you sense her attitude is better? Are her actions indicating she wants to reconcile?

Yes I am. We have been having really great conversations and taking steps in the right direction, really up until Sunday. Her attitude does seem to be getting much better. She hasn’t used separation or divorce in weeks. I felt that it was a little early to talk about starting the reconciliation process because her actions weren’t there just yet. However, they were coming.

I’ll tell you about it in my update post.

To be blunt.......she is blowing smoke up your rear. Look, she is using all this co-parenting b.s. as her ticket to keep you in the hot seat. I dare say that her view of you communicating and co-parenting with her, is not the basic rules of communication needed for co-parenting one child. One example is how she wants you to sit and listen to her read stories to him, when he's with you in your house. IMHO, that is not realistic when the parents are living in a physical separation. Just b/c she labels it part of co-parenting or communication, doesn't make it so. I think she may be wanting to go a bit extreme under the heading of co-parenting. Since when do you have to measure up to her standards of co-parenting and communicating. I mean, by reading what she told you, it sounds as if she's holding it over your head. Has she threatened to fight you for child custody or something?

Correct me if I am thinking of another sitch, but didn't the MC sessions start with the purpose of co-parenting? I mean, this has been her thing, hasn't it? She doesn't want to work on the MR, so after five months, I would think the co-parenting subject would have been covered by now. Truth is, you didn't attend for the purpose of co-parenting. You went for the purpose of reconciling your M, and she has been stringing you along all this time.

You are right. She said we originally went for coparenting. First we went because he’s also a child psychologist and she wanted him to see our son. During that first session the MC said he was fine and wanted to work with us. He asked her to drop the D. From then on out she’s says it’s coparenting, but we only talk about our relationship. We have very briefly talked about coparenting, with the therapist saying that this should only be temporary. We’ve gone now for 8 sessions. She has started to use therapy when I tell her she’s not doing anything to work on the relationship and as the only place to discuss our relationship.

What is she stringing me along to do?

I suggest you stop trying to convince of anything, especially about yourself. She keeps pulling your strings, and you are dancing around like her puppet. She says you aren't communicating enough, and you jump up and dance. She says you need to co-parent in the ways she wants, and you jump up and dance. She throws just enough crumbs about how she might work on something more, if you do things like she wants.........and you jump up and dance to her tune. You say you are an alpha male, but from what I can see, she's the one who is clearly in charge.

You are so right. In this situation, I am letting her be in control because I was wrong. I shouldn’t have been so angry with her about our jobs. It’s my way to apologize, be humble and sincere.

How do I get to be alpha without coming across as a jerk? I feel that there’s absolutely nothing I can do right now that’s right, so I’m trying to just minimize giving her any ammo.

It was horrible b/c you decided it is horrible whenever she gets angry at you. You allow her moods or quick anger to determine if the day is good or horrible. When she got irritated and shut down the webchat, then it should have ended there, as for as you were concerned. You should have made a mental note that you wouldn't compliment her outfits, and gone on with your evening. You should have ignored her text attack, instead of responding. Clearly, you do not have boundaries in place and allow verbal attacks. The guys here may not agree with me, and they may say you should validate when she attacks......but IMHO, this is not how you deal with a disrespectful wife. Okay, so she didn't like you complementing her outfit, what did you say that made her mad enough to shut down the conversation? The only time a woman doesn't like a complement is when it comes from someone that disgusts her, or it is putting emotional pressure on her, or makes her feel uncomfortable by the implications. I suggest you don't compliment her again, for a very long time. I also suggest you set some boundaries in place.

I agree with you. Boundaries are done. I’ve not put up with any further nonsense and have held my ground.

I think you both have been guilty of trying to emotionally control the other one. In so many words, she warns you, then you warn her......around & around the merry wheel goes. Until you decide your self respect is most important, then I think you will continue on the ride. Not to oversimplify, but a lot of the problems in this sitch would be resolved if you seriously decided that you will not be disrespected without consequences. You need to treat her in a respectful manner, too, if possible. Know the difference in showing respect.....cowing down......accommodating......and pursuing. You need to know where to draw lines. You don't chase after someone who has just disrespected you. That's how I see your actions after she attacked you. As long as she can attack you for complimenting her, and she gets rewarded..........when do you think she'll change that type of action? She gets mad, pouts or throws a tantrum.......and you are there with soothing words, supporting and encouraging her. Hows that working?

I'm not saying you should act ugly or hateful. There is a way that a husband can teach his W that he won't tolerate bad behavior. He can show firmness without being angry or mean. He can show strength without emotionally pressuring her. He can demonstrate his love, without being a wuss.

You are so right and I needed to hear that. I have been doing that and I guess I just feel that it’s black and white. Either I’m a jerk or I’m not. But I’m learning there’s a lot more to this than just that. I have been standing firm in my boundaries and I believe she knows it too.

Things have been going well until recently. I’ll update my situation in its own post and I would love for you to comment on it.

Newcomers often remind me of new converts trying interpret scripture. It takes spiritual discernment for it to make sense........and especially when it comes to application to one's life. I think you are trying to use advice you've received from various sources, but you are struggling with discernment. That's JMHO. ((hugs))

This is so true Sandi. This is me. I’m trying to do whatever I can do that works, even if it’s nothing.

Thank you so much. I always appreciate your replies!

[HrtHsbnd]

I wanted to update my situation.

My wife and I have been going to MC for about 8 sessions so far. It had been going really well. We were communicating more positively and having more meaningful conversations outside of therapy. We were really getting back to where we should have always been, though we were still a long way from being there yet.

An example, when we were chatting during webchat, I felt she was comfortable enough for me to ask her to send a picture of her at her cousins wedding so I could see how pretty she looked in her dress. She smiled and said she would and she knows I would want to see it. As soon as she said that, I tried getting off the phone but she interrupted me and corrected herself. Her eyes popped out of her head and she said she couldn’t do that for me but would send pictures for our son to see. It would be weird sending them to me because were separated. I just laughed and said ok and got off the phone.

I’m addition, she’s dropped saying D and S. Instead, she’s talking about the future and what that would look like either way. She only wants to have R conversations in MC. That’s just not enough for me emotionally, but I am trying to continue to work on detaching. I still like to have them, though.

So we had a lot of stuff happen during all of this.

Our MC took 3 weeks off and this is what happened during the time he was off. He was booked this week, so we won’t get in again until late next week, so that’s 3-4 weeks of no therapy which is not a good thing

My L had to send her L discovery papers. Since we’ve been working on building trust and communication, I didn’t want her L to tell her this information, so I did. Her heart sank just like mine did when I was told they were sent. It was like the wind got sucked out of our sails. She got angry with me again even after I explained that I had no control over it. She originally said she was mad because of my timing, but she has mentioned doing the discovery papers several times since. She hasn’t mentioned the timing again. I feel like she got so upset because we were in a good place and she felt in control. She realized she wasn’t when that got all taken away.

In addition to getting the papers, she apparently spent the weekend working on them. She was very short with me and said that it was making her remember all the old memories and feeling he had when she was so upset with me. I apologized to her and said I was sorry she had those feelings, but she could just end this whole D thing if she wants. She laughed and said she wasn’t going to do that right now. So I told her it was her decision.

There was a wedding this weekend and so all of her family came in and stayed at her house, which is really our house. That’s a bad thing because I’m sure her parents are very negatively influencing her on our relationship and neither of us have had anyone to talk to for almost a month.

I brought up the D thing because my point wasn’t trying to pressure, it was to make her see that she was in control of her feelings and this process. Because of her parents involvement, I’m not sure that she knows it’s her decision. Sandi mentioned that she felt as though my W is very immature and she really is immature.

Because of where we were and what we’ve been working on in MC, I’ve been asking about her day, etc. in a very harmless and non threatening tone. I’m not trying to pry or anything, but she took it that way this weekend. In addition, she continues to try to push my buttons. I know that my work on detaching is working as I don’t think I fell for it at all. Instead, I told her why I was doing it and my motive behind it. She didn’t have a response because it was so spot on there really wasn’t much to say.

Because of her reaction this weekend, I’ve decided to shut down again and let her come back to me. I’m trying to enforce my boundaries.

[Traveler]

Hi HrtHsbnd,

We were really getting back to where we should have always been.. She smiled and said she would and she knows I would want to see it. As soon as she said that, I tried getting off the phone but she interrupted me and corrected herself. Her eyes popped out of her head and she said she couldn’t do that for me but would send pictures for our son to see. It would be weird sending them to me because were separated.

she could just end this whole D thing if she wants. She laughed and said she wasn’t going to do that right now.

I’ve been asking about her day, etc. in a very harmless and non threatening tone. I’m not trying to pry or anything, but she took it that way this weekend.

Less pressure and giving her a chance to come back to you (or not) sounds wise. It must be tough seeing your initial advance almost succeed.. and then it being swatted away, followed by a swatting, and another swatting. I hope things improve once you drop the pressure.

She didn’t have a response because it was so spot on there really wasn’t much to say.

I would be careful about mind reading.

[HrtHsbnd]

Less pressure and giving her a chance to come back to you (or not) sounds wise. It must be tough seeing your initial advance almost succeed.. and then it being swatted away, followed by a swatting, and another swatting. I hope things improve once you drop the pressure.

I can see where that is giving her pressure, which is not what I want to do. I was just trying to continue building communication and trust as we discussed in MC, but if she doesn’t take it that way then it’s wrong. Her opinion is really the only opinion that matters.

It was very tough! But I think it has more to do with the circumstances I said before than anything I’m doing. If she had an outlet to express her feelings like with our MC, I think we would still be moving in the right direction.

I hope some of the vets on here can give me their advice.

[ovrrnbw]

HrtHsbnd,

maybe update your sig when you get a chance with some stats.

I agree, but what is she trying to manipulate me to do?

Also, she said that in MC. From what I’ve read on here our MC isn’t anything like what everyone else is going through. This is more like an intense MC. He is very, very good.

Everyone thinks their sitch is different, but they are usually quite similar. She said that to you so that you would work on what she wants you to work on and you are REELING! You think there's a chance... the best thing you could do is slightly open your mouth, shake your head twice and say "Uh huh, well I want what's best for the kids."

I felt she was comfortable enough for me to ask her to send a picture of her at her cousins wedding so I could see how pretty she looked in her dress. It would be weird sending them to me because were separated.

It almost seems as if the pursuit isn't working? Have you considered pursuing harder? Maybe text her every hour? Billboard? TV ad? Haha you get my drift? You need stop feeling so much and start thinking. Pursuit isn't working. She is separated. That ACTION tells you everything you need to know about her position in regards to a romantic relationship with you.

She only wants to have R conversations in MC. That’s just not enough for me emotionally, but I am trying to continue to work on detaching. I still like to have them, though.

If you want to run her off as quickly as possible, you can continue this path. What do you think is going to come of this? She probably wonders why you can't hear her, and frankly I am too. I wouldn't even discuss it in MC. Just let her talk and you listen. Keep your feelings to yourself. Quit being her adversary. Quit being her H. Just be a "co-parent" and move on with your life. Where is your GAL. You should be out and about A LOT.

so we won’t get in again until late next week, so that’s 3-4 weeks of no therapy which is not a good thing

Negative mindset. Who knows if that is true or not?

That’s a bad thing because I’m sure her parents are very negatively influencing her on our relationship and neither of us have had anyone to talk to for almost a month.

More negative mindset.

You are all over the place. You are in the middle of a divorce. Who filed? It seems like you are pushing it along, no? Just respect her choice to separate. Do your own thing. Stop pursuing. This is not in your hands. Let it go. Woosah. Put all this energy you have into work, gym, social life, build something, play a sport, get a new haircut, lose weight, reinvent yourself, get back to your roots. Get it? Quit playing the victim. And after you do that for a while you'll want to change that name from HurtHusband to HappyMan.

[LH19]

H,

She said she can't send you pictures because you're separated and then in the next sentence you say she dropped mentioning separation or divorce.

What are discovery papers? Is that a typo and should be divorce?

From my brief scan of your last few posts it sounds like you are giving her total control and she is manipulating you.

What's happening in MC that you are seeing positive signs?

[HrtHsbnd]

Everyone thinks their sitch is different, but they are usually quite similar. She said that to you so that you would work on what she wants you to work on and you are REELING! You think there's a chance... the best thing you could do is slightly open your mouth, shake your head twice and say "Uh huh, well I want what's best for the kids."

I’m not saying my situation is different. I use the fact that it’s very similar to my advantage. I was just saying that I think our MC is different based on what I’ve read on here. It seems to be very helpful when we are in there. I am doing that in MC. I don’t really speak unless it is to ask for examples to understand. I then validate and apologize when necessary. It’s been very good. I have also had the opportunity to let her know all I want is what’s best for our son. Right now, she feels D is the answer. Both the MC and I feel that it is not, so we are working through her issues.

I know she’s not ready to listen to mine yet, but I did feel like she was close.

It almost seems as if the pursuit isn't working? Have you considered pursuing harder? Maybe text her every hour? Billboard? TV ad? Haha you get my drift? You need stop feeling so much and start thinking. Pursuit isn't working. She is separated. That ACTION tells you everything you need to know about her position in regards to a romantic relationship with you.

You are right. I usually don’t have many feelings, until I wen through this situation. I’ve felt more feelings than I even knew I had! I’m learning new ways of dealing with them. I feel like my pursuit is only in talking about our R, which I know I shouldn’t be doing. As long as we are having good conversations and moving in the right direction, I don’t need too. It’s only when she’s mad at me that I feel like I need too. I’m working on that now.

If you want to run her off as quickly as possible, you can continue this path. What do you think is going to come of this? She probably wonders why you can't hear her, and frankly I am too. I wouldn't even discuss it in MC. Just let her talk and you listen. Keep your feelings to yourself. Quit being her adversary. Quit being her H. Just be a "co-parent" and move on with your life. Where is your GAL. You should be out and about A LOT.

It’s been hard, but she has told me that she doesn’t care about my feelings, so I’ve stopped showing them. I’m still in the process of lovingly detaching, but it is hard! I do need to quit being her H, but I just don’t know how to do that. Any advice?

You are all over the place. You are in the middle of a divorce. Who filed? It seems like you are pushing it along, no? Just respect her choice to separate. Do your own thing. Stop pursuing. This is not in your hands. Let it go. Woosah. Put all this energy you have into work, gym, social life, build something, play a sport, get a new haircut, lose weight, reinvent yourself, get back to your roots. Get it? Quit playing the victim. And after you do that for a while you'll want to change that name from HurtHusband to HappyMan.

I am trying not to be all over the place. Honestly, I’m trying to be consistent. Thank you for pointing this out to me. She filed for D and I am definitely NOT trying to push it along. I want it to stop!

I definitely have a life. I actively work out, play golf, hang out with friends and travel somewhat. My GAL activities are great. I even use work as GAL. It is not in my hands and I am trying to just let it go.

Thanks for the advice. I am truly just trying to do all that I can, including nothing, to fix this situation.

[HrtHsbnd]

H,She said she can't send you pictures because you're separated and then in the next sentence you say she dropped mentioning separation or divorce.

What are discovery papers? Is that a typo and should be divorce?

From my brief scan of your last few posts it sounds like you are giving her total control and she is manipulating you.

What's happening in MC that you are seeing positive signs?

I can see why you would feel that way, but I meant that she hadn’t mentioned S or D until that point.

Discovery is something that happens during the D process.

In some ways I am giving her total control. While that doesn’t make her sound good, that’s part of her healing process. I’ve seen this happen when she gets upset with friends or family. She just wants the control. I don’t think it’s NMMNG, as much as it is just her personality.

Why do you feel she is manipulating me? I’m not arguing with you, I just want to understand better so that I am more prepared.

In MC, she is not mentioning either S or D and even talking about what the future looks like. We are working through issues and have been able to have much better conversations. That recently changed this weekend because of all the things I mentioned. She hasn’t had our therapist to speak too.

[LH19]

H,

I guess I am more confused now. Why are you going to MC when she has already filed for D? Giving you false hope while still pursuing the D is manipulation.

[ovrrnbw]

Who initiated MC? And what is the stated purpose for you guys to go to MC currently?

If your W has filed, you are totally in the LRT mode:
1. Stop pursuing (COMPLETELY)
2. GAL.
3. Wait and see.

Don't contact her about anything. I'm really not seeing the point of MC so maybe you can help me out there.

She doesn't care about your feelings, but you want to text her all the time and have her send you pics of her? She prolly has some dude she's sending those pics to. Just keep that in mind when you think you want to act like her H. Just don't do anything a H would do for her. Don't worry about her, don't need to help her, don't need to listen to her long stories, don't need to text her back often or at all, don't call her...does that make sense?

There's no little talk or text you can send to make her feel like trying with you. When she sees you are totally fine without her she may wonder why you don't want her anymore. Maybe. Just go grab life by the balls and forget about her for the time being.

[HrtHsbnd]

No we went to MC after she filed. For a while, she called it coparenting. We never talk about our son or parenting, so it’s not coparenting. She just couldn't tell herself it was MC. When she can, she will use it to say she is working on our marriage brcause she is going to counseling. She is also seeing our therapist in IC too.

My W seems to be doing the opposite of what you’re supposed to do in situations like these. She’s been spoiled and not allowed to grow up and handle any type of responsibility. Her parents are very controlling and decided they were going to move in with us when our son was born. I tried to stop it, but I wasn’t able to get her support because she wanted them there.

They are the reason we are still separated in my opinion.

H,

I guess I am more confused now. Why are you going to MC when she has already filed for D? Giving you false hope while still pursuing the D is manipulation.

[HrtHsbnd]

My wife did. It’s not the same type of MC that I’ve seen on here though. It’s been VERY good and VERY helpful for both of us. Our purpose is to get her to the point of wanting to work on our marriage.

I get the LRT and I need to do a better job of it, but it’s just hard.

This type of MC has been the very best thing we could do to heal our relationship .

I can understand why you feel that way, but I don’t text her all the time. I hardly text her at all. I know she’s not cheating, so I guess I’m in that exclusive club. She may be having an imaginary affair, but nothing emotional or physical.

I haven’t heard not to do anything g a husband would do before and it makes sense. I’ll use that to justify not doing anything for her. I don’t do anything that you mentioned at all, except worry about her. I worry about her because I can’t help it. She doesn’t know that though.

She has severe depression. I brought her out of it, but she’s back in it now. She always looks so tired and her eyes are like glass. There’s nothing in them anymore.

What you said makes sense. We just talk during our webchats with my son. I’ve decided to stop talking to her there too.

Who initiated MC? And what is the stated purpose for you guys to go to MC currently?

If your W has filed, you are totally in the LRT mode:
1. Stop pursuing (COMPLETELY)
2. GAL.
3. Wait and see.

Don't contact her about anything. I'm really not seeing the point of MC so maybe you can help me out there.

She doesn't care about your feelings, but you want to text her all the time and have her send you pics of her? She prolly has some dude she's sending those pics to. Just keep that in mind when you think you want to act like her H. Just don't do anything a H would do for her. Don't worry about her, don't need to help her, don't need to listen to her long stories, don't need to text her back often or at all, don't call her...does that make sense?

There's no little talk or text you can send to make her feel like trying with you. When she sees you are totally fine without her she may wonder why you don't want her anymore. Maybe. Just go grab life by the balls and forget about her for the time being.

[LH19]

H,

Ok so I scanned through your entire thread and am even more confused now. Early on you agreed she was most likely having an affair. To the point you even knew who it was with. Now your stating you know she's not having an affair.

As for MC it is very common for WW to try MC to say they have tried anything. Nobody files for divorce and then goes to MC to work on their marriage.

Sounds like you try new things and they don't work you so you try something else. When you get to this point it is consist strong actions that equals progress.

I'm not sure if based on some of the things you posted that you are naive or delusional. You claim your not a "nice guy" but an alpha male. An alpha male would never chase a woman who is rejecting him.

[HrtHsbnd]

No one here thought my wife was cheating, which is why I changed my mind on it. You guys are the experts. None of our friends or family feel that way either. Our MC doesn’t think so and I’ve even brought it up on multiple occasions.

I understand what you’re talking about when you say she’s trying to say she’s done everything and you very well may be right. But I don’t think we would have this many sessions and I don’t think she would be seeing this person individually if that were the case. However, I do keep that in mind.

When she filed for divorce she said she wasn’t sure if she wanted to do it or not. She said I made her mind up by coming home, which I agree is nonsense. In addition, I feel she is very immature and doesn’t have any responsibility.

As far as being alpha, I feel that there is a fine like between being an alpha and being a jerk. I messed up with my actions and need to show humility, sorrow and remorse. I feel that even an alpha can be humble, sorry and remorseful for their actions, which is what I’m trying to be now. She’s always known I’m the alpha when we go somewhere or do something, she’s just really mad at me right now. I might’ve been too much alpha! I don’t know when that will change because I’m not only dealing with her, but dealing with her parents too.

It’s a very similar situation, but somewhat different because of the heavy parental involvement.

H,

Ok so I scanned through your entire thread and am even more confused now. Early on you agreed she was most likely having an affair. To the point you even knew who it was with. Now your stating you know she's not having an affair.

As for MC it is very common for WW to try MC to say they have tried anything. Nobody files for divorce and then goes to MC to work on their marriage.

Sounds like you try new things and they don't work you so you try something else. When you get to this point it is consist strong actions that equals progress.

I'm not sure if based on some of the things you posted that you are naive or delusional. You claim your not a "nice guy" but an alpha male. An alpha male would never chase a woman who is rejecting him.

[AnotherStander]

H, I really do get that you want this to work and I see that you are really pinning a lot of hopes on MC to turn things around. But it WILL NOT WORK. We are all telling you this and your response is always the same "I hear you say XYZ, BUT..." In other words, you think you are an exception. You think your sitch is different. IT IS NOT. We are not trying to discourage you, we are trying to explain to you that you are on the wrong path to recon. Your recon is absolutely, positively not imminent and won't happen through MC (which even your own W told you she doesn't see as MC). Possible recon is WAY down the road. You've got to let go of the notion that some miracle is happening here. Just relax, step back, stop pursuing, let her go, focus on you. I would suggest you stop going to MC, but if you want to continue then have ZERO expectations. Quit apologizing, surely you've done enough of that. Just listen and validate (validating is NOT apologizing). Don't talk unless you have to, and if you have to, then be very brief.

[LH19]

H,

Yes an alpha can be sorry, humble and apologize but if the woman is not willing to accept his apology he will move on and find a woman who will accept him for who he is and is willing to work on things when times get tough.

An alpha wouldn’t stay with a woman who files for divorce because she’s mad. That’s very immature.

[HrtHsbnd]

I agree with you and I am trying to do everything I’ve been told by you guys. I do have expectations that MC is going to turn things around, but that it will just take time. I don’t think my situation is any different, buthere are some exceptions. Also, I’m just trying not to hurt myself any further.

With that said, this feeling comes and goes, but I don’t know how to deal with it. I would love some advice. I’m feeling that I’m sure if I want to continue on this path anymore. I know that I really do, but sometimes I just get this feeling that I don’t care about it anymore. Maybe it’s normal, but I don’t want to have that feeling.

Any advice?

H, I really do get that you want this to work and I see that you are really pinning a lot of hopes on MC to turn things around. But it WILL NOT WORK. We are all telling you this and your response is always the same "I hear you say XYZ, BUT..." In other words, you think you are an exception. You think your sitch is different. IT IS NOT. We are not trying to discourage you, we are trying to explain to you that you are on the wrong path to recon. Your recon is absolutely, positively not imminent and won't happen through MC (which even your own W told you she doesn't see as MC). Possible recon is WAY down the road. You've got to let go of the notion that some miracle is happening here. Just relax, step back, stop pursuing, let her go, focus on you. I would suggest you stop going to MC, but if you want to continue then have ZERO expectations. Quit apologizing, surely you've done enough of that. Just listen and validate (validating is NOT apologizing). Don't talk unless you have to, and if you have to, then be very brief.

[HrtHsbnd]

Very good point and I’m almost there.

I feel she is very immature. Those that know my situation in real life also very much agree, too.

H,

Yes an alpha can be sorry, humble and apologize but if the woman is not willing to accept his apology he will move on and find a woman who will accept him for who he is and is willing to work on things when times get tough.

An alpha wouldn’t stay with a woman who files for divorce because she’s mad. That’s very immature.

[LH19]

Expectations are the number one enemy of the LBS.

[HrtHsbnd]

I am learning.

I would terry to read into everything and I wasn’t on that emotional rollercoaster. When she had a good day, I had a good day. That was easy. When she had a bad day, I had a bad day. That was really hard.

Now, I’m trying not to care as much. But I don’t know what that means. Does that mean that I’m falling out of love with her? Does that hurt what’s left of our relationship?

I’m just not sure, but would love to get an answer from you guys.

Expectations are the number one enemy of the LBS.

[Traveler]

Now, I’m trying not to care as much. But I don’t know what that means. Does that mean that I’m falling out of love with her?

A little bit! 6 months ago I loved her more than me. I now put me and my kids first. I still love her.

Does that hurt what’s left of our relationship?

This new "I love you" isn't hurting our reconciliation. Consider our partners already put themselves first! She gets after leaving me she needs to rebuild my trust. I get for what drove her away I need to rebuild her trust. Hopefully someday we'll each feel safe putting each other first again.

[unchien]

Keep in mind we advocate loving detachment here. The "loving" piece is often missing when we talk about detachment, which often leads to misinterpreting detachment as "not caring."

Loving detachment means adopting an empathic stance, while also not having your moods tethered to your spouse.

"Not caring" is perhaps a useful short-term strategy, but long-term the key to detachment is being more in touch with your own emotions and moods. Find your center. This may feel like not caring -- in actuality it is the most loving, caring thing you can do. Move your focus from your W's moods to your own moods.

You are asking questions about falling out of love, and whether this hurts your relationship. Those are outcome-focused questions, they carry expectations. Focus on the process. Let go of expectations.

[HrtHsbnd]

Good for you!

I just don’t know that she even wants to reconcile. I’m 5.5 months in and while her attitude seems to be improving, she can be just as nasty as ever.

I truly don’t know how much more I am willing to take. I feel like it would be easier st this point to just build a life with someone else, but it’s not really what I want and I know it’s not what’s best for my son.

She said divorce again today when she was upset with me and said that I’m just moving it further along. All I did was let her know it wasn’t healthy for her parents to undermine my parenting our son.

But what does just giving up and walking away look like?

I’m truly just tired of the stress and aggravation of it, but I guess that’s where loving detachment comes into play. This is the hardest thing I’ve ever had to do and I buried my mom at 18 and raised my brother since.

Now, I’m trying not to care as much. But I don’t know what that means. Does that mean that I’m falling out of love with her?

A little bit! 6 months ago I loved her more than me. I now put me and my kids first. I still love her.

Does that hurt what’s left of our relationship?

This new "I love you" isn't hurting our reconciliation. Consider our partners already put themselves first! She gets after leaving me she needs to rebuild my trust. I get for what drove her away I need to rebuild her trust. Hopefully someday we'll each feel safe putting each other first again.

[LH19]

H,

This is what they do. You stick up for yourself and you are correct her parents shouldn’t undermine your parenting and they don’t like it (but respect it) and throw out the D were to try to get you to fall in line.

My sitch lasted about 3.5 years and was a painful mfer. The thing is I am 1,000 stronger today.

Just start building your own life. What would that look like?

[HrtHsbnd]

Does it matter that she’s already filed for divorce and we’ve had our temporary hearing?

We’re 4 months in and it will take at least a year in our state.

H,

This is what they do. You stick up for yourself and you are correct her parents shouldn’t undermine your parenting and they don’t like it (but respect it) and throw out the D were to try to get you to fall in line.

My sitch lasted about 3.5 years and was a painful mfer. The thing is I am 1,000 stronger today.

Just start building your own life. What would that look like?

[HopeCA]

I was just catching up on this thread and saw a couple of mentions about LRT. I’ve read about LRT, but I’m a bit confused about how LRT differs from what we are meant to be doing in DBing all along?

I don’t mean to hijack, I feel like maybe HH might be unclear about this as well? Just a thought, don’t mean to put words in anyone’s mouth

[HrtHsbnd]

So today I just had a sense of calm come over me almost to the point that I don’t care about the situation anymore. I think I just want it over with. I can still see a life with my wife and feel like I still want that, but I feel like I can only take so much.

Is this normal?

We don’t talk, except during webchat’s with our son and mostly it’s just about what’s going on in his life, nothing with either of us. She hasn’t been willing to talk or have a real conversation outside of MC in almost 5 months. I feel that’s very immature. This is her decision and she will admit it.

I just don’t know how long I can be expected to want to work on the relationship if we’re only talking about our relationship or about each other for just 4 hours a month.

I’m almost ready to give it up.

[Hallzy9]

HH,

Yes it is completely normal and it is a good sign. Most of us LBS cling to the old relationship hoping our now changed spouses will return to normal. We deal with a ton of crazy disrespectful behavior and hope that our kind loving spouse will return. As we improve ourselves and make a new life for ourself we can detach more. We realize that unless the walk away spouse makes changes to themselves, that we do not want an R with them.

Short version: you are detaching well. Keep it up bud.

[crdcheck]

HH, completely normal. I've had the exact experience. Some days I'm actually not really wanting her back. I'm not angry or bitter, just becoming my own person (again). Only caution I'll offer is that something will come up that triggers you and you'll get emotional. W moved out this week and the house is super quiet and empty. The absence tore me up. And that she left every single thing that was of us (pics) was a kick in the stomach. But then today I took a book to the cafe I went to for lunch and read outside - haven't been able to read during the day in years. Small thing, yes, and I have other examples. But my point is that this will probably be a bit of a roller coaster for you. Congrats on getting to a new level!

[LH19]

H,

You have good days and you have bad. That's why we called it a roller coaster. Eventually you will have more good days then bad and then the majority will be good days.

The problem you are having is that you are a male and are thinking with logic and reason. You think because you are going to MC you are working on the marriage but in reality you are not. You think if you can talk about it you can use logic and reason to convince her that staying married is the right thing to do. As a woman, right now she is making decisions based on emotion. There is a saying around here. When she is working on the marriage you will know until then you will be confused.

[HrtHsbnd]

You are right, but why do you say we’re not going to MC to work on the marriage? What are we going for?

I am trying to make my decisions based on logic and have conversations with her on emotion. The key is to keep my emotions in check.

H,

You have good days and you have bad. That's why we called it a roller coaster. Eventually you will have more good days then bad and then the majority will be good days.

The problem you are having is that you are a male and are thinking with logic and reason. You think because you are going to MC you are working on the marriage but in reality you are not. You think if you can talk about it you can use logic and reason to convince her that staying married is the right thing to do. As a woman, right now she is making decisions based on emotion. There is a saying around here. When she is working on the marriage you will know until then you will be confused.

[HrtHsbnd]

I would love AS and Sandi’s thoughts too!

[HrtHsbnd]

I wanted to give an update.

I felt that things had been going well, especially in MC. We had been getting along pretty good for awhile. Yesterday was great! We had a pretty could MC session, even though she said she still wasn’t sure if she wanted to work on our marriage. We’ve been separated for 6 months and I would think she would know by now.

In addition, on Monday at our sons doctors appointment we talked at her request. I told her that I was tired of being on the defensive and I felt she was in a negative loop that she just couldn’t get out of and that I was not her enemy. I just wanted to support her and agree with her so that she knew I wasn’t trying to argue. I told her I was fine if she wanted to divorce and I was fine if she wanted to work on the marriage. I told her at this point I was just really done with all of it. She got somewhat angry, but surprised.

Because of my feelings and our conversation, I told her that I felt that she wasn’t capable of having an adult conversation. To which she just put her head down and didn’t disagree with me. I decided that it was time to offer her my wedding ring back. It was weird because at that point I feel like she knew I was serious and tired of her nonsense, so she literally ran to her car as quickly as she could and took off. It was weird how she acted. I would’ve thought she wanted to take it.

She was VERY nice to me the rest of Monday, Tuesday and yesterday. In fact, we had a great MC session yesterday. I told the doctor what I did and why I did it. He asked me what I felt I needed to do to earn her trust and respect back, so I asked my W. She told me Coparenting, consistency and doing what she asks. By the time the session was over I felt better. I don’t know how she felt about it, but I honestly didn’t care. The one question I have is that now the only advice the doctor gives us is to continue only talking about our son and leave the relationship talks in therapy. I don’t see how only talking about our relationship 4 hours a month really moves our marriage forward and fixes it.

Outside, we talked more. She prayed with me and I asked her what I needed to do girl get her heat back. She told me she wanted me to write her letters. She didn’t realize all the things I’ve done to work on myself and our marriage. It really affected her. As everyone knows her parents are a huge unhealthy part of our lives, so she wants me to write her parents apology letters. I highly doubt my lawyer will let me, though.

I think she felt that way too because yesterday evening we spoke for about 45 mins on webchat, but I only spoke to my son for about 5 mins. He didn’t want to talk last night anyway. She told me about her job, her day, etc. I listened, validated, congratulated and tried to make her feel the way I always made her feel.

Then today happened.

[HrtHsbnd]

Today was just a mess.

She was so sweet last night. She told me she wasn’t going anywhere, but would let me know if she did. I told her I would do the same, but didn’t because that wasn’t giving her space.

Our son started practice today, so this was the first time we’ve had to be together in public to work on coparenting. I felt it was awkward. As usual, she brought her mother. This was also the first time I’d seen her mother in months. I spoke to her mother and tried to be nice, but got yelled at a couple of times. I was also told that I would NEVER get back in her parents heart. I took it because I’m trying to humble myself. I explained that this wasn’t the time or place to get angry at me. She agreed and walked off.

My wife was cold and distant with me the entire time. When practice was over, I took my son to her car where she was there. I told her it was nice to see her and I tried to shake her hand. She absolutely refused and walked off. When I asked her why she wouldn’t do that, she said because it was weird. I don’t know why that’s weird.

We texted for about 20 mins after, as I was trying to understand why she wasn’t so cold and distant with me. She just said because she was. I feel it ‘s all because she was around her parents and I don’t know how to overcome that issue.

I know that this isn’t DB well, but in MC we are supposed to be working on coparenting, trust, respect, communication, and empathy. Therapy is her idea and she always asks me to go with her. Now, she agrees it’s more than coparenting and only says coparenting when she wants to argue.

One more thing, I spoke to my lawyer yesterday. He told me that she asked for an extension to the discovery documents I sent her. He said he agreed to the extension, but her lawyer said he needed to get my discovery documents out soon. I feel that’s another positive sign she doesn’t want our marriage to end, but I don’t know anymore.

Im trying to stay positive. I’m GALing like a madman. I’m living my own life. I am trying my best to be so patient. I’m just to my breaking point.

Is 6 months a long time to be patient? Are these ups and downs normal? Why do they happen? When is enough enough?!?

[crdcheck]

HH sorry to hear that. It sounds like a roller coaster, lots of confusing signals.

My kneejerk reaction - it sounds like you are going in with expectations (don't have any) and that you may be pursuing. Who is scheduling the MC? What is discussed? Sounds like she has a united front around her against you and she may need space to find out what she wants. I recognize that it's been months - has she said what she really wants?

Sounds like her mother is a real piece, immediately getting into it with you and her grandson's practice. It says a lot more about her than you, kudos for being the bigger person.

I hate to hear what you are going through. You probably did it but remember to be positive in all interactions. You will be successful and happy regardless of her choice.

[HrtHsbnd]

Thanks Crd!

Yes it is a rollercoaster!

I am trying not to have expectations, but I am going in with what I need. When I don’t see that happening, then I’m not going anymore. Yes I do think I am pursuing and that needs to stop. It’s weird because when I stop pursuing, I don’t really thinks he knows what to do. She is always very nice to me when she thinks I’m done, which is why I said what I said and did what I did.

She found the MC and she schedules it all. With our finances split right now, she pays for the MC totally. I don’t pay anything. The doctor said he wanted her to drop the divorce and just let him work with us in our firstborn session, but she hasn’t yet. We talk about our relationship and why she is so angry at me. It’s always her feelings because she’s the one that has the issues. We very rarely talk about our son or parenting.

Yes she has a very united front. They do not and will not leave her alone. I believe that my wife might even take her mother to work with her! It’s weird. They don’t give her a chance to miss me.

What do you mean has she said what she really wants? She has told me in therapy several times that if she had to make her decision right now it would be to divorce. Then other times she will say she just doesn’t know what she wants. She also flip flops and will say in one MC session she doesn’t know if she will ever forgive me, then the next one she says she forgave me a while ago.

She just flip flops on everything. It’s very frustrating!

Her mother is very overbearing. It’s her way or the highway. I feel her parents only see things their way and won’t look at anything else.

I hope that answers your questions. I would love to get as much feedback on my questions and answers as possible. If for any other reason, maybe someone on here can continue to motivate me to want to continue to want my marriage.

Thank you! I am trying to be supporting, nice and kind.

HH sorry to hear that. It sounds like a roller coaster, lots of confusing signals.

My kneejerk reaction - it sounds like you are going in with expectations (don't have any) and that you may be pursuing. Who is scheduling the MC? What is discussed? Sounds like she has a united front around her against you and she may need space to find out what she wants. I recognize that it's been months - has she said what she really wants?

Sounds like her mother is a real piece, immediately getting into it with you and her grandson's practice. It says a lot more about her than you, kudos for being the bigger person.

I hate to hear what you are going through. You probably did it but remember to be positive in all interactions. You will be successful and happy regardless of her choice.

[HrtHsbnd]

I would love a reply.

I feel like I haven’t been getting any responses lately and I really need some help!

[LH19]

H,

You are breaking a lot of DB rules. You are pursuing, trying to have relationship talks, being passive aggressive and initiating weird behavior (shake her hand? Really). Are you a control freak? I sense that in your posts. You accuse her mother of not giving her the chance to miss you when in reality you don't give her the chance.

It's now uncommon for WW to initiate MC so they can say they tried everything. Many times they end up being about communication or coparenting. (Read Uichens thread).

What's the longest you have gone without contact?

[HrtHsbnd]

We have to talk every day because of webchat.

Do you think she is a WW or a WAW? Everyone that knows us says she’s not cheating, including our MC who sees her separately. They all think I’m crazy for thinking it.

I am trying not to pursue, just be done. But I don’t know what that looks like.

Can you explain to me why shaking her hand is weird behavior? It’s not like I tried to hug her, I was trying to be businesslike.

As far as MC, why is it just about coparenting and communication? I’m not interested in that at all. If it’s done, I want to be done with her and talk through the lawyers.

I never accused her mother of anything in person, just here.

H,

You are breaking a lot of DB rules. You are pursuing, trying to have relationship talks, being passive aggressive and initiating weird behavior (shake her hand? Really). Are you a control freak? I sense that in your posts. You accuse her mother of not giving her the chance to miss you when in reality you don't give her the chance.

It's now uncommon for WW to initiate MC so they can say they tried everything. Many times they end up being about communication or coparenting. (Read Uichens thread).

What's the longest you have gone without contact?

New Thread:

Deciding When To Move On