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Posted By: SteveS My story, trial separation for now, Part 2 - 07/01/19 06:43 PM
Last thread: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2855155&page=1

Just some journaling.

Weird, rollercoaster-y weekend. After WAW and I went through with the S, I came home to find a very different apartment. Tons of space, empty rooms, empty walls, everything. It didn't feel like my home at all. I had already taken down a lot of the photos of us and our life together before that, but coming home last Friday felt like a stomach punch.

So I decided I was going to use this weekend to buck up and make the place mine. Went to IKEA, Crate and Barrel, Target, etc. and made some plans for what I was going to do. Turn the corner over here into a bar, turn the spare bedroom into an office, that sort of thing. It was a bittersweet feeling to be shopping for furniture by myself given that it was a mutual and fun thing we did together after the past seven years, but I kept my head down and kept putting one foot forward in front of the other. And now I have a lot of building to do!

And so I went into today feeling pretty good, with a spring in my step. Then a few hours ago I got an email from our landlord about renewing the lease, and it sort of took me by surprise. The lease isn't up until mid-October, but I live in a fairly high demand area of NYC so I suppose the landlord wants to get out ahead of things. WAW then emails me - she gets the emails too - and asks if I want to talk about the lease at tomorrow's MC. And then it all kind of hit me: the lease is a fairly important part of the whole story here.

I wouldn't be here if I wasn't interested in reconciliation, but given that she's signed a one-year lease of her own, it's very unlikely even if there was momentum in that direction that she'd move back in. If we do end up D, then given the support I'd like having to pay, financially I'd most likely want to downgrade to a smaller apartment; in that case, a lot of the furniture I just bought would be unnecessary. But then I'd still have the next few months in a half-empty shell of an apartment whose emptiness only reminds me of what I've lost.

I don't know, I knew the day would come when I'd be faced with this juncture, but I didn't realize it'd be on me so quick after the S. I felt so good turning the page and GAL setting up my place without WAW, and now I'm right back into it. And I really don't know what I want to say about it to WAW. I'm 100% she knows what I want, and that'd be unhelpful pressure anyway. But I also assume that it's not particularly DB of me to communicate my anxiety and concern here. Any ideas?
When you talk to her, keep it strictly business. Don't share any feelings. I'm sure you're right that she wants her name off the lease, and if you can't afford the place yourself then start making plans to move. I know it hurts but you've got to prepare yourself because things aren't going to turn around soon enough for you to count on her moving back in there.

My suggestion on the furniture is keep what you would keep if you move to a smaller place and return the rest. If you don't like the idea of looking at empty rooms then close a door or two and don't go in there. That's what I did when XW moved out and the kids were with her, I just closed their doors so I didn't see those empty reminders. It's a small thing but it does help.

Hang in there! You'll be fine, but unfortunately you've got to go through some pain first. You can do this.

EDIT- also go ahead and set up the furniture you plan on keeping. The sooner you make that place your own then the sooner you'll start to feel better about your situation. That was a great idea on buying some stuff and making it what YOU want. Definitely proceed with that. It's nice being able to set something up to your personal tastes without worrying about what someone else thinks!
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
When you talk to her, keep it strictly business. Don't share any feelings. I'm sure you're right that she wants her name off the lease, and if you can't afford the place yourself then start making plans to move. I know it hurts but you've got to prepare yourself because things aren't going to turn around soon enough for you to count on her moving back in there.

My suggestion on the furniture is keep what you would keep if you move to a smaller place and return the rest. If you don't like the idea of looking at empty rooms then close a door or two and don't go in there. That's what I did when XW moved out and the kids were with her, I just closed their doors so I didn't see those empty reminders. It's a small thing but it does help.

Hang in there! You'll be fine, but unfortunately you've got to go through some pain first. You can do this.

EDIT- also go ahead and set up the furniture you plan on keeping. The sooner you make that place your own then the sooner you'll start to feel better about your situation. That was a great idea on buying some stuff and making it what YOU want. Definitely proceed with that. It's nice being able to set something up to your personal tastes without worrying about what someone else thinks!


Thanks, appreciate the advice. What's the best way to approach MC? Going to be hard to keep that all business.
Originally Posted by SteveS
What's the best way to approach MC.
Listen to understand. Validate how she feels.
Just some journaling.

MC went well, in my view. We're scaling back to once every other week, which I think is fine. I don't want us to lose all touch - although I have hard set a rule with myself to go no contact initiated by me in between sessions - and I think MC will be a good channel for listening and validating.

Otherwise, GAL continues unabated. Down to 16% body fat and looking really fit at the gym. Played tennis this week, and joined a flag football and softball team at work. Meeting new people, getting my butt out of the house. One of the things that WAW loved about me was my athleticism - and she's right that I got a bit lazy and complacent. Not doing it for her as I do miss it, but a nice opportunity to potentially kill two birds with one stone.

Discussing the SA is punted until next week, which is fine, although I do expect there to be some tough discussions when it does come around. Still planning on holding my ground, communicating that I'm not casting her as the enemy and I do not wish to be punitive to her, but that I need to make sure I'm doing the right thing for me.

One interesting thing though: she's heavily involved in local politics - a massive turning point in our M, as it caused her to have a lot less time to spend at home and between us - and she's signed up to be the campaign manager for a friend of hers that is running for a state seat. Anyway, she's not the technical type and I am, and she's having lots of trouble getting her campaign website up and running. On one hand, I absolutely don't want to be the dude who is at her beck and call when she needs help. On the other hand, one of her complaints from the M is that I wasn't very helpful to her on group projects, and that she didn't feel like I was available when she needed me.

So my question: is it possible to thread the needle here, show a 180 and help when I can (ie: not cancel plans or go out of my way), but also set boundaries (ie: come to my neighborhood, I have to leave at time x, etc.)? She's attracted to the skilled and nerdy types, of which I absolutely am, and this might be a nice way to remind her that we do work well as a team. Or am I being naive and losing respect in her eyes?
Hi everyone, just journaling again.

So I've been helping WAW with the website, and it's been going well. I am still worried that it's framing me as someone who will always be available to her, but without my help she'd really be up a creek and it's been a good opportunity for me to 180 on mutual projects that I wasn't very helpful on. I think it's been helpful to remind her that we're a good team when we're moving in the right direction. Rapport has been very friendly, with jokes and so on.

One of the downsides of helping - apart from giving neither of us much separation - is that it does remind me that I'm still very attracted to her. I've done my part too, looked nice, smelled good, and all of that - but she's still very attractive to me and I just have to absorb that.

Otherwise, usual GAL stuff. Not going to get into specific details, but I've been taking advantage of my singleness and having fun when I go out with my friends. Nothing romantic or emotional, just having fun. Otherwise I've been getting to the gym, setting up my apartment, setting into a different life.

I do remain pretty committed to the goal of reconciliation though, so I'm also reading (and doubling down on DB and NMMNG), going to IC, and journaling offline as well. Really trying to be the best version of myself I can be.

Separation agreement talks will resume once I'm back from a work trip overseas; I'm still a bit concerned it will hamstring any positive momentum we've had, but I recognize this is a marathon and not a sprint.
Originally Posted by SteveS


One interesting thing though: she's heavily involved in local politics - a massive turning point in our M, as it caused her to have a lot less time to spend at home and between us - and she's signed up to be the campaign manager for a friend of hers that is running for a state seat. Anyway, she's not the technical type and I am, and she's having lots of trouble getting her campaign website up and running. On one hand, I absolutely don't want to be the dude who is at her beck and call when she needs help. On the other hand, one of her complaints from the M is that I wasn't very helpful to her on group projects, and that she didn't feel like I was available when she needed me.

So my question: is it possible to thread the needle here, show a 180 and help when I can (ie: not cancel plans or go out of my way), but also set boundaries (ie: come to my neighborhood, I have to leave at time x, etc.)? She's attracted to the skilled and nerdy types, of which I absolutely am, and this might be a nice way to remind her that we do work well as a team. Or am I being naive and losing respect in her eyes?


So you are going to go no contact, but keep every other week MC......oh and you still have to work on a SA. What is the point of MC at this point?

And no, do not do her website for her. If she asks, tell her that you can be hired to do it like any other contractor. Isn't she firing you as her husband? Stop acting like you are still her H.


Welp, nix that, you already are helping. -smh-
Originally Posted by Steve85
Originally Posted by SteveS


One interesting thing though: she's heavily involved in local politics - a massive turning point in our M, as it caused her to have a lot less time to spend at home and between us - and she's signed up to be the campaign manager for a friend of hers that is running for a state seat. Anyway, she's not the technical type and I am, and she's having lots of trouble getting her campaign website up and running. On one hand, I absolutely don't want to be the dude who is at her beck and call when she needs help. On the other hand, one of her complaints from the M is that I wasn't very helpful to her on group projects, and that she didn't feel like I was available when she needed me.

So my question: is it possible to thread the needle here, show a 180 and help when I can (ie: not cancel plans or go out of my way), but also set boundaries (ie: come to my neighborhood, I have to leave at time x, etc.)? She's attracted to the skilled and nerdy types, of which I absolutely am, and this might be a nice way to remind her that we do work well as a team. Or am I being naive and losing respect in her eyes?


So you are going to go no contact, but keep every other week MC......oh and you still have to work on a SA. What is the point of MC at this point?

And no, do not do her website for her. If she asks, tell her that you can be hired to do it like any other contractor. Isn't she firing you as her husband? Stop acting like you are still her H.


Welp, nix that, you already are helping. -smh-


Well, I appreciate the 2x4 here and I'm sure it's a somewhat meaningless distinction, but I'm certainly not *doing* it for her. She's done 95% of it, and I'm helping her with a few bugs that come up. Never breaking my own plans to be available, but I get your point.
Hey Steve, hope all is well up in NYC. Have you put away your sweaters yet? Haha just kidding.

I'm unsure how to respond to helping her, but if NC is what you want to do then it doesn't fit the bill. I'd bet the old Steve, before you got married, wouldn't be helping girls who weren't interested in him with passion projects. I'm thinking this is indirect pursuit, what do you think?

As for the attraction thing, your mind is tricking you. It wants what it can't have. The law of diminishing returns applies in your love life. I think you know how to make this work in your favor.
Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
Hey Steve, hope all is well up in NYC. Have you put away your sweaters yet? Haha just kidding.

I'm unsure how to respond to helping her, but if NC is what you want to do then it doesn't fit the bill. I'd bet the old Steve, before you got married, wouldn't be helping girls who weren't interested in him with passion projects. I'm thinking this is indirect pursuit, what do you think?

As for the attraction thing, your mind is tricking you. It wants what it can't have. The law of diminishing returns applies in your love life. I think you know how to make this work in your favor.


Good points on all, thank you. My thinking was that a big piece of her feedback that she didn't feel like she could depend on me, and that I didn't do my fair share on things that should have been both of us working on it together (budgeting, etc.), this would be an opportunity to show a 180. But I can definitely agree that I wouldn't have done this for a random woman; I only did this because I still view her as my wife and I had an agenda in mind.

Time to step back.
Good stuff here! SteveS, the trick for the LBS is always finding the right balance. But ovr gave you some great things to think about. Your W is gone. There is a new woman in her place. You need to treat it as such.
Hi all,

Just checking back in. Feeling lonely tonight so I thought I'd give an update..which is to say there's no update at all to give, really.

No contact with the WAW, other than at MC, which we attend every other week and terse, logistics-oriented texts. I wish I could say I didn't miss her, but I do, very much. Some days are better than others - today was a bit tougher because the weather forced me indoors, canceling a softball game and making it difficult to head to the gym as well. I've also been trying not to shortcut the healing process through dating or flirting with women I meet through the apps, so it's generally been a quiet day with a lot of time to think and feel lonely.

Generally, GAL is going fine; working out, playing sports, hanging out with friends, and so on. Today is just tough. Maybe tomorrow will be better. One more into the S and I'm overall feeling more like myself but, yeah, today is tough. I guess that's to be expected.

Just typing out what I'm feeling, I feel very powerless right now. So much in my life I've achieved through hard work and ambition, setting out to do something and working my butt off to do it. I wanted to start a company, so I did. I wanted to move to NYC, so I did. But I've got no agency at all here. And I get it, that's a part of the lesson: you can't control what other people do, and certainly any pressure or urgency I apply here will take me ten steps backward in the other direction.

I know all of this, but today is tough. I don't know at all how this ever convert to a chance to reconcile. I guess I just work on myself, be the best version of myself I can be, and hope that at some point, that opportunity will arise. It just seems like such a pipe dream right now, when we go a week or more without any interaction, and I (perhaps pessimistically) have no real reason to think that she misses me.
Steve - Man this post resonates with my day as well.

The ambition can make this harder. I'm also attacking GAL like a maniac - at first it felt great, but now 3 weeks in there are days where it all feels kind of empty. Work, gym, hobby, friends, repeat. I've been throwing in some guided meditation apps which helps. The ambition can lead to burnout. Ambition is great in work, school, etc. - you work hard, you achieve. That's not how it works in relationships, in particular these cases.

One other idea is make sure you have an indoor hobby or something when you are home alone. I have a little project going, watch YouTube videos about it, etc. It can eat up endless amounts of time and tickles the part of my brain that seeks achievement and learning.

What are you covering in MC? I'm just curious. I'm in the same boat - MC once every 1-2 weeks, and terse logistics-oriented texts (in my case surrounding the kids primarily). We have a once weekly phone chat to cover logistics only. MC feels completely aimless - we are working on "communication" which helps with the co-parenting and logistics but addresses none of the actual, ya know, MR. I think human brains are wired for survival - lately my conclusion is that everything I learn in MC can be applied to my next relationship, whether that is with my W or someone else - but maybe that is my brain desperately trying to put a positive spin on things. I definitely don't understand how my path is leading to reconciliation either, but I can tell I'm growing as a person and a father and that's enough for me most days.

I imagine healing just takes a really really long time. I would say I'm sure there is a part of her that misses you, but that is beside the point. If and when she misses you enough, you will know.
Originally Posted by unchien
Steve - Man this post resonates with my day as well.

The ambition can make this harder. I'm also attacking GAL like a maniac - at first it felt great, but now 3 weeks in there are days where it all feels kind of empty. Work, gym, hobby, friends, repeat. I've been throwing in some guided meditation apps which helps. The ambition can lead to burnout. Ambition is great in work, school, etc. - you work hard, you achieve. That's not how it works in relationships, in particular these cases.

One other idea is make sure you have an indoor hobby or something when you are home alone. I have a little project going, watch YouTube videos about it, etc. It can eat up endless amounts of time and tickles the part of my brain that seeks achievement and learning.

What are you covering in MC? I'm just curious. I'm in the same boat - MC once every 1-2 weeks, and terse logistics-oriented texts (in my case surrounding the kids primarily). We have a once weekly phone chat to cover logistics only. MC feels completely aimless - we are working on "communication" which helps with the co-parenting and logistics but addresses none of the actual, ya know, MR. I think human brains are wired for survival - lately my conclusion is that everything I learn in MC can be applied to my next relationship, whether that is with my W or someone else - but maybe that is my brain desperately trying to put a positive spin on things. I definitely don't understand how my path is leading to reconciliation either, but I can tell I'm growing as a person and a father and that's enough for me most days.

I imagine healing just takes a really really long time. I would say I'm sure there is a part of her that misses you, but that is beside the point. If and when she misses you enough, you will know.


Sorry you're going through it too - it really [censored]. I'm glad there's a safe space to talk about it though.

It definitely does feel a bit empty, but I wonder if that feeling of emptiness is because we're doing the GAL for the wrong reasons. We're doing it because we want to be a more attractive partner for our WAW, as opposed to doing it for oureslves, and it feels empty because we have no pathway to show that effort. I know these things are the "right" thing for me to be doing, but it definitely just feels like I'm doing them right now to check off a to-do list.

In MC, part of it is just checking in to see how we're emotionally doing w/r/t the separation, and the other part of it is identifying areas that we weren't clicking, then facilitating an understanding of how we both can better approach it moving forward. It's been helpful, but also frustrating because there's no way to go and enact those better behaviors. I know at least personally in MC before the separation, I struck way, way too much of a defensive tone and wasn't going into it with the right mentality - a huge regret in hindsight.

I think maybe I'm (and we're) just feeling a bit blue. I talked a close friend I can be open with last night, and his response was akin to "Of course she misses you - you were the most important person in her life for seven years, you built a life together, she loved you enough to marry you, and she cares about you enough to separate and not divorce, to go to MC as opposed to given up, etc." and that was helpful. It'd be great to hear her say it and have that reassurance, but that's unlikely.

One thing that she did say in MC is that out of all the thoughts that make her sad, the one thing that really, really upsets her is the idea of us having no relationship at all, if I was just out of her life completely. I immediately wondered if that puts me into a bucket where she only views on future relationship of ours as a platonic friend, but it was nice to hear, as small of a carrot as it was.
I feel for you , but now is the time to be strong . Make some time to do something you always wanted to do but couldn’t as you were married . Something exciting and a little crazy . You ever ridden in a rodeo ? Learnt to surf ? Scuba parachute jump ? Spent a weekend wild in the woods ? Get that sadness out , she can smell it on you . It isn’t attractive and she won’t be able to deal with it in a productive way for you . Give it a try , see what happens. Sorry babe , can’t make this week coz I’m ?!?!?!?
I think you need to work on detachment.

Originally Posted by SteveS
It definitely does feel a bit empty, but I wonder if that feeling of emptiness is because we're doing the GAL for the wrong reasons. We're doing it because we want to be a more attractive partner for our WAW, as opposed to doing it for oureslves, and it feels empty because we have no pathway to show that effort. I know these things are the "right" thing for me to be doing, but it definitely just feels like I'm doing them right now to check off a to-do list.

I think this is completely normal. Fake it til you make it. Sometimes I GAL and feel like a warrior, sometimes I feel like a lifeless robot.

Originally Posted by SteveS
In MC, part of it is just checking in to see how we're emotionally doing w/r/t the separation, and the other part of it is identifying areas that we weren't clicking, then facilitating an understanding of how we both can better approach it moving forward. It's been helpful, but also frustrating because there's no way to go and enact those better behaviors. I know at least personally in MC before the separation, I struck way, way too much of a defensive tone and wasn't going into it with the right mentality - a huge regret in hindsight.

It's great you are learning about yourself and better ways to handle future relationships (whether with your W or somebody new). It sounds like you have the same aimlessness that I do in my sitch. You don't even know what your W is hoping to get out of it. I would venture to guess even she doesn't know, but it will likely end up (based on what the vets here say) as another checkbox she can tick off to say she tried, to ease her guilt.

That makes it sound like she is harsh and cold, and that's not what I am implying. But I think "Separation + MC" without clear steps to working on the MR is basically a "soft divorce". If you see it any other way, you are setting yourself up for more pain. As you mentioned, there are no ways for you to apply the learnings.

I don't know - maybe someone here has had a sitch where MC during separation actually saved their MR. I haven't read one yet, but people come and go on the forums.

Originally Posted by SteveS
I think maybe I'm (and we're) just feeling a bit blue. I talked a close friend I can be open with last night, and his response was akin to "Of course she misses you - you were the most important person in her life for seven years, you built a life together, she loved you enough to marry you, and she cares about you enough to separate and not divorce, to go to MC as opposed to given up, etc." and that was helpful. It'd be great to hear her say it and have that reassurance, but that's unlikely.

Of course she still cares for you. She also fired you as her H (okay, put you on permanent administrative leave, whatever). I have a really positive friend who says these kinds of things to me -- it feeds into my desire for things to work out, but he has been mostly wrong every step of the way the last 3 months.

The best I can say is that S+MC is another form of limbo, you don't know what's going to happen, treat it as such. Don't look to your W for signals. Seeking reassurance is a sign that you should work on detachment.

Originally Posted by SteveS
One thing that she did say in MC is that out of all the thoughts that make her sad, the one thing that really, really upsets her is the idea of us having no relationship at all, if I was just out of her life completely. I immediately wondered if that puts me into a bucket where she only views on future relationship of ours as a platonic friend, but it was nice to hear, as small of a carrot as it was.

I used to say the same thing to ex-GFs when I broke up with them. And I really meant it, they were all great people, things just didn't click. I am friends with none of them today.
Originally Posted by unchien
The best I can say is that S+MC is another form of limbo, you don't know what's going to happen, treat it as such. Don't look to your W for signals. Seeking reassurance is a sign that you should work on detachment.


Yeah, you're definitely right about that. Trying hard not to beat myself up too much about it -- it's only been a month, these feelings come in waves and are normal. It feels like a vicious cycle: I get down, I lose some of the confidence that I built, I beat myself up over losing that confidence and missing WAW, and it loops around. Just have to tell myself: tomorrow might not be better, but a week might, a month definitely will, and so on.

It is what it is, I guess. There's no guarantees of anything, other than that life goes on. I have to thread the needle between maintaining hope/not giving up and detaching/becoming emotionally healthy. I'm sure there's a way to do both.

If there is a chance at reconciliation, it's out of my control and not on my timeline. I can't influence it, except in a profoundly negative way.
Hi Steve,

I've been following your updates. You realize there is a cycle here, and for you it will get easier every time.

Quote
It'd be great to hear her say it and have that reassurance, but that's unlikely.


Actions speak louder than words my friend. I know how bad you want to hear those things and so many others...it'd be like an angel coming down to take the weight of the world off your shoulders. The only difference is the weight is only in your head.

Quote
One thing that she did say in MC is that out of all the thoughts that make her sad, the one thing that really, really upsets her is the idea of us having no relationship at all, if I was just out of her life completely.
I notice that you didn't tell her that you aren't willing to be just friends with her. Does she already know this? At some point, she may need to hear it, or be reminded of it.

Quote
We're doing it because we want to be a more attractive partner for our WAW, as opposed to doing it for ourselves, and it feels empty because we have no pathway to show that effort.
In time, with effort, you can make it what you want it to be.

Hope NYC is treating you well, best of luck Steve.
Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
I notice that you didn't tell her that you aren't willing to be just friends with her. Does she already know this? At some point, she may need to hear it, or be reminded of it.


When we going through some rocky patches during our MR, I definitely mentioned to her that if we did end up splitting, from my perspective we'd likely never speak again. I said that not from a place of anger, but from a place of pragmatism: at that point, she would represent a very painful chapter of my life and a sad reminder of an assumed future lost.

Since the BD and S, we've seen each other a few times, including the helping-with-the-webpage that Steve85's 2x4ed me about. It's been very cordial and friendly; we fell into our usual rapport and it was pleasant despite the elephant in the background. But you are correct that right now I have a very hard time imagining a world where I could be emotionally comfortable with a platonic friendship. I don't know if really ever could, to be honest with you. I'm sure she knows this, but if you think it's worth reiterating, that'd be good to know. I guess by making it clear, it would take an option off the table: the easy option to get the best of both worlds, to keep my friendship and the years together, without the romantic component.

My ambivalence here comes from talking to a close friend who went through a similar situation and ended up reconciling with his WAW by resetting things, being her close friend, and then courting her and demonstrating that while he would OK without her, he was choosing to extend his hand to try again. That feels in opposition to some of the lessons I'm learning from veterans here. Is it just a function of when my friend hit the reset button and decided that he'd start again just as a friend, he had detached and thus had no ulterior motive to wanting to be her friend? In talking to him about it, he didn't really strike me as being detached from her. Or did he simply beat the odds?
Did your close friend's WAW make any changes, or was it back to the same MR?
Originally Posted by unchien
Did your close friend's WAW make any changes, or was it back to the same MR?


I'm not 100% sure. I'll have to get back to you on that.
Obviously there's a whole history with your friend and his W. Maybe she realized what she was missing.

In my situation, I refuse to reconcile without my W changing as well. Even though I know another path to possible reconciliation would be to become overly apologetic, accept all blame, and buy into her narrative 100%.
Originally Posted by unchien
Obviously there's a whole history with your friend and his W. Maybe she realized what she was missing.

In my situation, I refuse to reconcile without my W changing as well. Even though I know another path to possible reconciliation would be to become overly apologetic, accept all blame, and buy into her narrative 100%.


I have to assume there was *some* change, although I don't know what. And I agree - while there are many things I'd have done differently, the issues that caused our S were not 100% on me, and therefore any sustainable reconciliation would have to be the fruit of both of us accepting fault and making changes.

This shouldn't be a surprise, but in MC, we've definitely both articulated areas in which we contributed to the S, so it's not as if WAW is putting all of the blame on me or anything like that.
Just some journaling.

Felt more down today than I've felt in a few weeks now. Nothing precipitated it - in fact, I had a good weekend of working out, seeing friends, and generally doing my thing. I think maybe some things that I was avoiding internalizing are starting to sink in: this is still the first mile of a marathon, WAW is moved out and living an independent life, and things will never be the way they were. Conceptually I knew all of those things, but they're definitely hitting me harder as of late.

MC tomorrow, and for those who haven't been following, we've been in touch weekly to discuss logistics and finances. All very pleasant and cordial, all initiated by her and professional/friendly from me.

Not that I want to keep throwing blame on myself, but I think a large part of how I'm feeling is that all of that cordialness and all of the rapport we easily fall into when we do meet just leaves me going back home, just as unsure as ever as what's next. It's in these moments when I feel the most mentally weak and my thoughts go to really dark places: is she happy on her own? Does she miss me at all?

I know I can only control my own actions and thoughts, so that's what I'm trying to focus on. But it does feel very contradictory at times: NMMNG would say to set boundaries and not allow yourself to be walked on, DB would say to remove all pressure. Doing a 180 would have me make sure I'm there for her when she needs it and show that I can be reliable and responsible, DB would say to detach and GAL.

It's very confusing. I'm only one month in, so I'm allowing myself to feel that confusion, and sadness that we're at this point.
SteveS - I feel like we are comrades here.

Originally Posted by SteveS
It's in these moments when I feel the most mentally weak and my thoughts go to really dark places: is she happy on her own? Does she miss me at all?

Yup, we feel detached most of the time, then have these moments where we realize how far away we really are. I was feeling pretty low yesterday myself.

Originally Posted by SteveS
I know I can only control my own actions and thoughts, so that's what I'm trying to focus on. But it does feel very contradictory at times: NMMNG would say to set boundaries and not allow yourself to be walked on, DB would say to remove all pressure. Doing a 180 would have me make sure I'm there for her when she needs it and show that I can be reliable and responsible, DB would say to detach and GAL.

It's very confusing. I'm only one month in, so I'm allowing myself to feel that confusion, and sadness that we're at this point.

My take is that all these various programs provide some nice frameworks or guidelines with which to approach a situation. In particular when we are hopelessly struggling and need a lifeline. At some point, we need to graduate from school and fully integrate these lessons. In these parts we call this AMOAFWL.

What is AMOAFWL? I would say it's a fully self-differentiated man, confident he can handle any situation, confident in all aspects of himself - emotional, spiritual, mental, physical. Just able to handle whatever comes his way. Unafraid to state his needs, not dependent on others to meet them.

AMOAFWL does not ask "Does this follow Rule #32? And does that conflict with NMMNG advice?" He just knows at a very deep level what to do, without needing to ruminate.

I am an engineer by training. We learn the rules and equations in school. Everything is ordered. Then we go out in real life and have to apply this knowledge. There are ALL KINDS of exceptions, and times where one rule should be used instead of another. And it all comes down to experience and instinct a lot of the time.

This is all a long-winded way of saying I understand what you mean. The confusion is a good thing. You are trying to absorb all these different lessons but they are confusing and conflicting.

For instance, I went to MC today and unloaded some emotional baggage. Here is how I would evaluate my actions along the different axes:

- NMMNG (+): Great. Admit to past issues, how I have changed, set boundaries, be assertive, no expectations.
- DB (-): Terrible. Made myself vulnerable. Added pressure by sharing feelings.
- 180 (+): Sharing feelings without becoming overly emotional is a positive change.

So depending how I view things, I either made a huge mistake, had a triumphant breakthrough, or somewhere in between. The fact is... it doesn't really matter. I can feel the internal progress that I am making, I know I will be better off in a future relationship, whether with my W or somebody new. And most importantly, I had zero expectations about how my W would react, and would have been okay with any reaction.

The one thing I did not do is bring up "I want to work on the MR" which would have been unnecessary pressure I think.

One other thing that has helped me a lot is simplifying things. I have a simple list in my head -- here are my 3 primary issues, here are the 3 primary issues I think my W has that contributed to our MR failure. Any more than 3 feels like complaining, and unrealistic to fix. Then I try to work on a plan to work on those issues:

Me:
1. Fear of losing the relationship (NMMNG, classic DB begging/pleading behavior)
2. Lack of emotional awareness and regulation (again NMMNG)
3. Handing over power of my own happiness to another person (ditto)

W:
1. Communication: Withholding resentment then performing a toxic dump and retreating
2. Conflict resolution: Not willing to work together to problem-solve when issues arise
3. Trust and intimacy (long-term, no way to work on these short-term)

That's it. Fix all 6 of those things and I think we can have a happy MR 2.0. I know I'm going to work on my Top 3. My W - well, if she doesn't, I don't really think it will work out anyways. As of now I think she is blind to her contribution.

Now I've identified the Top 3, what am I going to do about them? Lots of meditation and working on making myself happy. (Nobody can be happy with me if I'm not happy myself). Hey wait... that's what GAL is! And PMA! Exactly! GAL and PMA are generic prescriptions, we force ourselves at first because we are clueless, desperate LBS's. Then at some point, GAL and PMA should become automatic because we recognize the benefit, and we start to tailor our GAL/PMA choices individually. I've learned I like woodworking, I like the sense of accomplishment. Going for a walk - yeah it's okay, not as good for me.

I hijacked your thread here but I really just wanted to share how I am trying to approach things. I'm trying to zero in on the changes I'd like to see in myself, and secondarily, the changes I would like to see in my W if we are to work things out. It is a very helpful exercise for me to think about the issues I would like to see my W resolve... it takes back some of the power I have unhealthily granted her as a NG.

Again sorry for the hijack but I am thinking about this stuff a lot lately and how to push through it. If you hit on anything that is working for you, I'd love to hear about it! Meditation started really clicking for me this week, in a way it never has even though I have dabbled for years.
Quote
Me:
1. Fear of losing the relationship (NMMNG, classic DB begging/pleading behavior)
2. Lack of emotional awareness and regulation (again NMMNG)
3. Handing over power of my own happiness to another person (ditto)


I reckon 95% of men on these boards have the same top three in various orders.
Originally Posted by unchien
I hijacked your thread here but I really just wanted to share how I am trying to approach things. I'm trying to zero in on the changes I'd like to see in myself, and secondarily, the changes I would like to see in my W if we are to work things out. It is a very helpful exercise for me to think about the issues I would like to see my W resolve... it takes back some of the power I have unhealthily granted her as a NG.

Again sorry for the hijack but I am thinking about this stuff a lot lately and how to push through it. If you hit on anything that is working for you, I'd love to hear about it! Meditation started really clicking for me this week, in a way it never has even though I have dabbled for years.


No, I appreciate it - and you're right, we're birds of the same feather. I'm also trained as an engineer and work in tech, so I'm very much of the mindset of "do x, observe y change"; that just isn't how relationships work, and most certainly not in our cases right now.

I went through some passages that I highlighted in DB and NMMNG tonight and now I'm feeling a bit better. Right now I'm far too outcome-oriented, namely that of working on the MR and moving towards reconciliation with WAW. If that's my focus, then consciously or subconsciously I'm going to do things to affect change towards that goal, and be emotionally upset when I don't see any movement.

Unfortunately for the both of us, we're at the hardest step: giving space while not giving up. We need to repeat it until we're blue in the face - we can only control our destiny, we are responsible for our own happiness, we are the agents of creating the life that we want. This requires effort, assistance (meditation, IC, posting her for support, etc.) and time, but I have confidence that these are mindsets that will become second nature provided we stick with it.

In the meantime, I think the best place is to own and accept the confusion as a part of the healing and growth processes. We've been through emotional trauma and we're doing a hard reset on the things we've always known and the patterns we've always used to get by.

Put another way: if I take five steps forward and two steps back this week, that's not cause to beat myself up for the two missteps, it's cause to acknowledge the overall three steps I've headed in the right direction. That applies to all of us.

MC tomorrow, and I'm sure another hour at a coffee shop to drill into finances and work together on a separation agreement at some point this week. One day at a time.
Just some journaling.

Went to MC today with WAW; we typically meet a half-hour beforehand at a nearby coffee shop to say hello, catch up a little and walk over together. We don't explicitly plan it - we both are OCD about being on time, the NYC subways can't be trusted, and she'll typically text "I'm a place X if you're nearby" and we meet up. I don't assign any larger meaning to this, but it's nice.

All in all, a good session. I'd characterize the sessions as treading water - we're working on issues from the MR in a somewhat indirect way: being emotionally open with each other, that sort of thing. Today we talked about how we're communicating and working through outstanding issues relative to the S, for which she was grateful that we're able to treat each other with love and respect and deal with tough decisions amicably and as a team. We're both children of ugly divorces and I'm very thankful for this as well. As you may have gathered from my previous posts, while I am happy we still have a strong rapport, I need to be careful not to confuse this or conflate it with something more.

We also talked about how we're emotionally dealing with the S; she said that she's sad and covering it up by overworking herself. This does not surprise me in the least, as that's how she's basically been for the past six months leading up to the BD. Lots of volunteering, lots of activities, running away from the fact that things weren't working. At least she recognizes it, I guess. I said exactly what I've said in here: this isn't what I want, but I'm using the time to work on myself, take a hard look at the way I acted, read, reconnect with friends, and generally work on being the best version of myself I can be. We both go to IC religiously, so I know she is working on things too - and I do think in time she'll allow herself to really feel what she's feeling.

Near the end I mentioned that I wanted to talk about dating during the S. I'm paraphrasing, but I said that while I recognize that it is impossible to set a boundary around things like timing, there are aspects of this that for me are non-negotiable. I trust that WAW has not had an affair, and I trust that she did not BD and instantiate this to chase after someone. But given the power dynamic that is inherent when one person leaves (and when the other implicitly wants to reconcile, even if it goes unsaid), it can lead to a situation where the one leaving the relationship explores things knowing that the LBS will always be a Plan B. I refuse to be in that situation, and said as such.

So, where it all nets out..good, I guess. Work in progress as always, but I'm learning to be more emotionally articulate, to feel comfortable stating my needs, and making clear that I'm using this time not to just sit around moping but to address my issues such that my next relationship will be better, with WAW or not.
Good update Steve, I like your progress. I will challenge you to not assume anything, and I say this in reference to:

Originally Posted by SteveS
I trust that WAW has not had an affair, and I trust that she did not BD and instantiate this to chase after someone.


Have no expectations. once BD hits, the rules are out the window and WAS's will twist things to justify their actions. I also quoted this b/c you used the word "instantiate". Bravo. Who knew that an engineer would be capable of such obscure wording?
Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
Have no expectations. once BD hits, the rules are out the window and WAS's will twist things to justify their actions. I also quoted this b/c you used the word "instantiate". Bravo. Who knew that an engineer would be capable of such obscure wording?


Fair, that's a good point. What I should say is that I've got no evidence that points to it, and she explicitly said after I had set my boundary of never being a Plan B that it would not be an issue and that it was the furthest thing from her mind. I trust it on the basis of that, but can absolutely see how things in my situation might not be particularly black and white.

And ha, thank you. That's a word that's been kicking around back there since my coding days, mostly as a programming reference to an object being created. Nowadays it's all meetings...
Journaling.

This has been a weird week for me. As I mentioned in a few posts before, I've been feeling OK (and having lots of success with GAL and working on the things I'd bring to the table in a reconciliation) but this week it feels tougher than it was and like I'm headed in the wrong direction emotionally. WAW and I met up earlier in the week for MC, and then again today to work on setting a budget and getting our finances in order through the S. This was prompted and set up by me. Partly because I'm traveling to Europe next week and partly to 180 as one of WAW's chief complaints from our MR was my reticence to involve her in our finances and take her wishes to save more money seriously. In the grand scheme of things it's small, but I do want her to recognize a consistent change here and also be reminded that when we're working on things as a team, we have fun together and we make for a formidable duo.

Like previous interactions with her, it was again very cordial and friendly, falling back to our usual rapport and enjoying each other's company. I do sometimes wonder if I'm projecting that, but I can certainly still make her laugh and she is generally very engaging and open with the conversation. The downside of course is that I greatly enjoy the time with her, and I'd be lying if I said that I wasn't still very physically attracted to her. So, I guess when they net out these interactions - as important as they might be logistically - are probably making me feel worse about my situation. I recognize that. The goodbyes are particularly awkward as we head our separate ways.

When I'm feeling confident and optimistic, I'm able to remind myself that there's a lot of reciprocity to the feelings: she said recently in MC that she's never been more physically attracted to me and she that's confused and hurting and masking it by overworking herself. When I'm feeling pessimistic, I have a very hard time seeing how we go from barely talking to working on things, and worse, that I'll never find someone that I'll love the way I loved her. I also have an incredibly hard time with the guilt of the things I'd have done differently and the ways I failed the MR.

I came across a thread on the forum that talked about not misinterpreting kindness or small gestures from a WAS as something more, and that is what really prompted the flood of negative thoughts and feelings. Not that the thread was unwelcome - it was super eye-opening - but it really made me confront just how much the situation I'm in hurts and how far away from each other we really are. I'm still operating out of such a place of fear: being afraid that NC will drive us further apart and that there's no way back at all.

All I can do is keep writing here, keep reading other threads, keep GALing, and keep working on myself. Just repeat that over and over like a mantra. It's OK to be hurt and confused. Feel those feelings and process them; don't run from them. No shortcuts. Do the work.

Just journaling again.

I woke up this morning feeling worse than I have in some time, at least since the S. I guess these feelings are just cyclical but I'm having a really hard time putting one foot in front of the other right now.

Everything I see, if I'm watching a show with a married couple, it immediately reminds me of what I've lost. If I'm listening to a love song, same deal. I don't know how to escape it.

We were only married for two years. When I look at texts that I've backed up, six months ago, you'd never guess anything was wrong. I don't know how things got so bad, so quick. She doesn't either, or at least she hasn't given any reason.

I know I need to go find something to do, see friends, go work out, something. And I will, but now I'm just glued to the couch, running through endless memories in my head.

Obviously I need to work on detachment, and I need to work on internalizing an abundance mentality. In time, I know that I'll be fine regardless what happens, but it's so hard to focus on that when in the short-term, all I can think about is how unhappy I am, how guilty I feel for not doing more, and how lonely I am without my life partner. I was about to type the word "helpless" but I stopped myself because I'm not helpless; I am the ultimate agent in my own happiness. I'm only helpless relative to things I cannot control, and my current unhappiness is because I'm feeling helpless in trying to control them.

This feels like a rollercoaster. I'm emotionally at the bottom of the hill right now.
Posted By: BenB Re: My story, trial separation for now, Part 2 - 08/03/19 03:00 PM
Hang in there Steve,

Whenever I feel down like this I remind myself that this must happen for me to grow as a person. I've become so much better in every single way since this all started. Yes, I wish I could have my w back because how amazing would that be? I'm this awesome person now and if I had the woman of my dreams on top of that? But like you said, you can only control you.

Someone wrote this to me early on but I would go through this all over again if it meant I would grow into the person I am today. And this is all in just the past 3-4 months. Imagine where we will be in a year or two from now if we learn from it and see it as an opportunity rather than something negative?

You can do this! You will get through this!
Originally Posted by BenB
Hang in there Steve,

Whenever I feel down like this I remind myself that this must happen for me to grow as a person. I've become so much better in every single way since this all started. Yes, I wish I could have my w back because how amazing would that be? I'm this awesome person now and if I had the woman of my dreams on top of that? But like you said, you can only control you.

Someone wrote this to me early on but I would go through this all over again if it meant I would grow into the person I am today. And this is all in just the past 3-4 months. Imagine where we will be in a year or two from now if we learn from it and see it as an opportunity rather than something negative?

You can do this! You will get through this!


I appreciate the reply, thank you.

I do recognize that as a result of this, I'm taking a very hard look (and addressing) my NMMNG issues, my integrity, and other things that contributed to the difficulties in the MR. I have no doubt that for my next relationship, I'll be a stronger and more emotionally healthy partner. I doubt I'd have had those awakenings without a BD and without being forced to address them.

I can't change history, so for as much as I'd like to say that I wish I'd had read NMMNG six months ago, that's just wishful thinking. I do believe that if things move to D, I'll always look at my MR as a failure, a person I loved deeply but wasn't emotionally complete enough to make it work. That's a painful lesson, but it won't kill me.

What little optimism I do have is buoyed by the fact that there *are* people who have reconciled and pieced things together; both here and in my social group. I simply need to find the balance between maintaining that hope/standing up for the MR and detaching.
Hi everyone,

Just doing some journaling again. I'm on a plane overseas currently so I have a lot of time to think, and unfortunately no friends or family to reach out to in order to help me process my thoughts.

As I said in my post before, it's been a really tough weekend. I don't know if I've felt this lost or upset since the S. I've been doing well on GAL, but hit a bit of a wall this past week - I just don't have a lot of energy to go out and do much else than work out, even though I know it's important to keep busy. I feel like I'm in a loop: I'm sad over my situation and so I turn inward, and then beat myself up for doing the opposite of what I should be doing, which in turn makes me feel worse and cycles the loop all over again.

I know that a good bit of my sadness right now is self-inflicted. Between the MC and getting together with WAW to work on logistics, there hasn't really been anything close to a clean break. And when we do get together, it reminds me and makes me confront what I've lost - a woman that I l still deeply love and the loss of a future that I was so excited about. I'm working on coming to grips with various aspects of denial: that she's the same woman I married, that there's potential for R, that she's noticed the 180s, but it's hard when I'm filled with so much wishful thinking. Maybe I'm being hard on myself here too, as it's only been a month. Or maybe she has noticed the changes, but I have no transparency into how she's feeling or thinking at all. Either way, detachment is clearly where I need the most help.

In my IC, one of the key things we've been working on is my fear of abandonment. It's been a pattern all of my life: I was given up for adoption, my parents had a terrible relationship, fighting all of the time and leaving my brother and me to basically figure things out for ourselves. They also went through a brutal multi-year D, after which my mom's health issues caught up to her and she passed away. Every relationship I've been in save one, I've been on the bad side of the breakup, no doubt to nice-guy syndrome and scars from my childhood. NMMNG really, really opened my eyes to some of my worst behaviors, and while it's good to have a reference for it, there's still a lot of work to do in resolving them.

Another thing that my therapist tries to instill in me that I cannot move forward if I am not willing and able to forgive myself for the areas in which I failed the MR. I understand that, but it's very hard to do that when so much of what went wrong traces back to things that I feel fall on my shoulders. No D is ever 100% on one side, but WAW has never really articulated areas in which she feels like she didn't do enough or things that she's regretful for. Maybe that's something to work in MC. It's probably the NMMNG/abandonment issues flaring up, but I just feel overwhelmed with guilt over things I would have done differently. We were only married two years, how could it go so bad, so fast? How could I make the mistakes I did, and take for granted the woman I loved so much more than I could have ever imagined?

I don't really have any answers. I don't know if there are any. All I can do is give it time, keep committing to making myself a more emotionally healthy person, and see what happens. I've probably said this before, but I have tremendous empathy for anyone and everyone who finds themselves reading and posting here. I wouldn't wish this pain and loneliness on my worst enemy.

This is all so hard to type out, hard to process, and hard to absorb. I feel more lost than ever. Maybe next week I'll feel like I'm back on the right track. Right now I'm just a sad, lonely man trying to hold it together 45,000 feet above the Atlantic.
Posted By: LB55 Re: My story, trial separation for now, Part 2 - 08/05/19 02:31 AM
Hang in there Steve. This is a very tough time for anyone who is here. The feeling of being alone and blaming oneself can be just very tough to deal with. I know it was and is for me. Balancing GAL with good self care and rest can be tough too! It’s exhausting. Finding a good balance is key.

I’ve found that through this whole situation for the past 9 months, when I’ve felt my lowest someone or something has done something or said something that made me take notice and see myself moping and feeling sorry for myself. I think it has to do with living in the moment. When I start thinking about the past or the future I get upset and feel down. When I focus on the here and now, I tend to do better.

I was feeling down the other day...then I read a post by another poster that had been almost fully through his D, was dating, and now his w wants to reconcile and give it another shot. It motivated me to stay the course and do what is best for me and for my kids. The future is out of my control but certainly not outside of my influence.

Love yourself. Forgive yourself. Those go together like peas and carrots.
SteveS - sorry to keep this short but I’m on travel.

I have the FOA (fear of abandonment) and the tendency to beat myself up also.

It helps me to think of the things I would like to see my W change. Not that I expect her to change, but it helps me realize she has her own baggage too. We are all just people carting around baggage. Also I think it is a good step to healing NGS - take her off the pedestal and view things from a balanced point of view.

Honestly... name the top 3 things that you would like her to change if you agree to reconcile. You should notice a little power shift just by thinking this way, you get your self respect back a little bit.

Hope that helps... I go through the cycles too.
Hey Steve sorry to hear that you aren’t feeling great. I am similar in that I will be doing very well not thinking of W and feeling pretty detached, and then some small interaction or new information about her will cause me to have a sad day. Just remember that it will get better in time.

LH told me a great quote today: Someday this will all be a distant memory. It hurts now, probably one of the tougher things we all have been through. But in a few years time, with or without her, we will feel far less emotional about these tough days.

I always try to go crazy with GAL on days I’m feeling down. Doesn’t help if you’re just sitting around thinking about the sitch ya know?

Take care bud
Originally Posted by LB55
When I start thinking about the past or the future I get upset and feel down. When I focus on the here and now, I tend to do better.


Thanks for the thoughtful reply. This part is so true. I have read that flying makes people more emotional in general, but I remember what really triggered this was the fact that right after BD, I had to travel to the same place I'm going, and it really brought me back to that awful moment.

I also was thinking on the flight in that the life I'm living - lots of travel, lots of work, professional success - I don't know if it's really what I want anymore. I'm not driven by it the same way I used to be. I'm sure it's a byproduct of the S, but the it's sad that I don't have anyone staying up worrying that I got in safe, or someone I can tell how much I love them right before we take off. I never expressed to my WAW how important that was to me and how much it made me feel loved.
Originally Posted by unchien
SteveS - sorry to keep this short but I’m on travel.

I have the FOA (fear of abandonment) and the tendency to beat myself up also.

It helps me to think of the things I would like to see my W change. Not that I expect her to change, but it helps me realize she has her own baggage too. We are all just people carting around baggage. Also I think it is a good step to healing NGS - take her off the pedestal and view things from a balanced point of view.

Honestly... name the top 3 things that you would like her to change if you agree to reconcile. You should notice a little power shift just by thinking this way, you get your self respect back a little bit.

Hope that helps... I go through the cycles too.


That's great advice. I'd want her to work on understanding my love language (physical touch), for us both to be more openly communicative, and continue to work on managing her anxiety such that it doesn't manifest itself in controlling behavior.

She's not perfect, and I have to remind myself of that. Our situation is 50/50, even if it doesn't feel that way right now.
Originally Posted by SteveS
Originally Posted by LB55
When I start thinking about the past or the future I get upset and feel down. When I focus on the here and now, I tend to do better.


Thanks for the thoughtful reply. This part is so true. I have read that flying makes people more emotional in general, but I remember what really triggered this was the fact that right after BD, I had to travel to the same place I'm going, and it really brought me back to that awful moment.

I also was thinking on the flight in that the life I'm living - lots of travel, lots of work, professional success - I don't know if it's really what I want anymore. I'm not driven by it the same way I used to be. I'm sure it's a byproduct of the S, but the it's sad that I don't have anyone staying up worrying that I got in safe, or someone I can tell how much I love them right before we take off. I never expressed to my WAW how important that was to me and how much it made me feel loved.


Thanks for the reply. Yeah, I try to remember that I've been through breakups before, and in each one I felt as if I'd never find someone again, that I wouldn't get back anything close to what I had. And then I did. Of course, I was never married before, nor have I met someone who I loved as much as WAW, but I digress..

But I do recognize that time heals all wounds, and that my feelings are cyclical. I need to be mindful of the triggers: seeing a restaurant we used to go to, remembering things we did together, that sort of thing.
Dang Steve,

I can see you were having a rough time the last couple days, sorry to hear that.

Originally Posted by SteveS
there hasn't really been anything close to a clean break.
This bothers me too. It is probably part of the reason why you have the emotional swings. At some point you'll get tired of being her finance educator, political passion project advisor, and this guy she is so attracted to but can't see outside of MC.

I certainly understand why going to that place physically brought back memories. In time you may totally forget about it.

Originally Posted by SteveS
I also was thinking on the flight in that the life I'm living - lots of travel, lots of work, professional success - I don't know if it's really what I want anymore.
I certainly understand that. I would not take a job with that much travel. And if I did it would have to be the type of money that would blow me away, and even then, I would know that I wouldn't do it forever. To me, it's important to have good food, family/friend time, and fun experiences. I need plenty of income and success to live a certain lifestyle too. You can balance it.
Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
This bothers me too. It is probably part of the reason why you have the emotional swings. At some point you'll get tired of being her finance educator, political passion project advisor, and this guy she is so attracted to but can't see outside of MC.


I was talking to my friend about it, and he pointed out that a lot of the things I'm doing, I'm doing it out of a place of fear. I'm afraid that if I don't see her regularly - even if she is the one initiating - I will be out of sight, out of mind. I'm afraid that if we don't reconcile, I won't find another relationship that means as much to me.

I'm trying to my best to meditate and keep thinking rationally, but it's hard when the flood waters are raging. I'm glad that I can post here and at least talk through things, and for my friends who have been wonderful in listening. Tonight I'm going to go for a long walk and re-read some of the highlighted sections of NMMNG that I earmarked.
My favorite fear quote: “F@&$ you fear. It doesn’t exist. You made it up.”

I have 3 kids and I’m on the wrong side of 40 now. I’m pretty sure I can find someone great for me if it comes down to that. I didn’t feel that way until maybe a month ago. You will feel that way eventually too. It might seem crazy now but you will.
SteveS - Travel can be really rough. I had 4 trips during pre-BD limbo and they wore me down. So much alone time, time to ruminate, obsess, read, worry, etc.

I am on a mission to achieve clarity lately. I'm tired of the spinning thoughts. Meditation helps.

Example: NMMNG. I've gone over and over that book and for me at this point it comes down to one simple lesson:

It's okay to have needs.

Now that I'm starting to believe it, things fall into place. Setting boundaries comes more naturally. That pedestal my W was atop has toppled (mostly...) I don't feel guilty for asserting a need, even if it causes conflict. I don't try to meet my needs in sneaky, people-pleasing ways.

Just encouraging you to strive for that clarity and simplicity.
Just some journaling.

Just got off the phone with WAW. She texted me earlier today that she wanted to get my opinion on a job offer she received. She's been interviewing with a few companies, after having been working on her own as a consultant for about a year. I'm happy to do it, partially because our finances are still intertwined and I want her to make the best decision, and partially (being honest here) because I'm glad that she still seeks my advice and recognizes that I deeply understand her and can help her work through problems effectively.

She was her typically cordial self: asked how my trip was going, asked if I was able to find any good places to eat, that sort of thing. They're small wins but I am glad that we're able to enjoy each other's company; really the only awkwardness is when we say goodbye.

I also had a long chat with my friend who ended up reconciling with his now wife, just getting an understanding of how he dealt with the rollercoaster of emotions. I'm paraphrasing, but he said he came on too strong in the early days and it almost completely killed what little they still had; it was only after giving her some space that it opened the door for them to have really honest discussions about what caused the split.

I'm going to try and keep that lesson in mind. I'm never initiating the contact, but it would probably work to my benefit to be a little aloof and selective about it. This is a marathon and not a sprint.
Originally Posted by unchien
SteveS - Travel can be really rough. I had 4 trips during pre-BD limbo and they wore me down. So much alone time, time to ruminate, obsess, read, worry, etc.

I am on a mission to achieve clarity lately. I'm tired of the spinning thoughts. Meditation helps.

Example: NMMNG. I've gone over and over that book and for me at this point it comes down to one simple lesson:

It's okay to have needs.

Now that I'm starting to believe it, things fall into place. Setting boundaries comes more naturally. That pedestal my W was atop has toppled (mostly...) I don't feel guilty for asserting a need, even if it causes conflict. I don't try to meet my needs in sneaky, people-pleasing ways.

Just encouraging you to strive for that clarity and simplicity.


Very true - NMMNG has been a godsend, really. I might be oversimplifying, but so much of my communication problems boiled down to:

1. Not clearly expressing my needs, which turned into passive-aggressiveness and weak boundary setting
2. Hiding things and lying to avoid conflict, which eroded the basic trust she had in me
3. Allowing my partners to have such strong impact on my emotional health, guided by fear of losing their love

It's really ironic. By trying to be perfect, avoiding conflict and downplaying my needs in order to seem like the best partner, it has such an opposite effect: you're instead a partner who cannot emotionally connect and be open and honest. For as much as I can beat myself up for not recognizing and taking action these things sooner, I'm going to use this time to actively work on improving my communication and integrity. Part of that is developing and cultivating honest and open male friendships, part of it is improving my relationship with my family, part of it is zooming in with my IC on self-image, and frankly part of it, as you said, is realizing that WAW is flawed and the problems that caused our S fall on both of us.
SteveS - Great summary post, I need to bookmark this.

One thing I am trying out this weekend is joining a men's group. It is not a NMMNG group specifically, but basically one with very similar goals that our MC (of all people) privately recommended to me.

NMMNG recovery is a lot of work and I imagine will take months if not years. The small steps of progress I see in myself (such as saying "no" without fear of conflict erupting) are invigorating.
SteveS...there is much to getting through this that's counter intuitive to what you think you should be doing. One of the vets on here "Sandi2" has the following on her signature: "It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!" From your posts it sounds to me like you are coming around on getting into alignment with that idea.

I'd suggest taking a look at scarcity vs abundance mindset. We all get here and think we'll never find another like our WAW or a better love or any of the other limiting/scarcity type feelings that do us no good. If you can get into the abundance mindset and truly believe in it, I think you'll find it will help you to manage how you go about your dealing with your WAW. Abundance will naturally help you to relax, drop the rope and allow you to focus on you and your life. You are doing work on yourself and that's going to pay off for you down the road no matter what happens.

-B
Originally Posted by SteveS

I also had a long chat with my friend who ended up reconciling with his now wife, just getting an understanding of how he dealt with the rollercoaster of emotions. I'm paraphrasing, but he said he came on too strong in the early days and it almost completely killed what little they still had; it was only after giving her some space that it opened the door for them to have really honest discussions about what caused the split.

I'm going to try and keep that lesson in mind.


So DB'ing actually works? Huh. whistle
Originally Posted by unchien
SteveS - Great summary post, I need to bookmark this.

One thing I am trying out this weekend is joining a men's group. It is not a NMMNG group specifically, but basically one with very similar goals that our MC (of all people) privately recommended to me.

NMMNG recovery is a lot of work and I imagine will take months if not years. The small steps of progress I see in myself (such as saying "no" without fear of conflict erupting) are invigorating.


Great idea. I noticed that in my MR, I tended to spend less time with my friends as the years went on, which in turn put an increasing amount of pressure on WAW to provide emotional support. That eventually became a very large burden.

There's a NMMNG meetup here in NYC that I'm planning on attending, and I'm even considering attending some 12-step groups as well. I don't view myself as an addict, but one of the lessons of NMMNG is to practice verbalizing and opening up about your faults and the things that you hide.
Originally Posted by ballast
SteveS...there is much to getting through this that's counter intuitive to what you think you should be doing. One of the vets on here "Sandi2" has the following on her signature: "It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!" From your posts it sounds to me like you are coming around on getting into alignment with that idea.

I'd suggest taking a look at scarcity vs abundance mindset. We all get here and think we'll never find another like our WAW or a better love or any of the other limiting/scarcity type feelings that do us no good. If you can get into the abundance mindset and truly believe in it, I think you'll find it will help you to manage how you go about your dealing with your WAW. Abundance will naturally help you to relax, drop the rope and allow you to focus on you and your life. You are doing work on yourself and that's going to pay off for you down the road no matter what happens.

-B


That's great advice, thank you. One of the things that my IC and I talk about is that the scarcity mindset is very common amongst two groups: late bloomers that didn't grow comfortable into who they are until later in life, and corporate-minded types who are familiar with thinking in terms of business and economics. I happen to both.

Now pile that on to the abandonment issues and at times my head can be a pretty toxic stew. But I'm not going to beat myself up: I'm aware of it, I'm actively working on it, and it doesn't mean I'm flawed, it means I'm human and a work in progress like everyone else. That's a lot more than I could have said six months ago.

My last relationship before I met WAW, we were together for three years. Lived together, had a lot of fun, and when we broke up, I was devastated and in a tough space mentally for a few months. I didn't die though, eventually I found peace with it and a few months after that, I met WAW, and everything changed. I only attracted WAW because I had dropped the rope of my old relationship, and was attractive, confident, and independent.

Now, it's true that I've never loved someone as much as WAW. Apples to oranges, sure, to some degree. But the lesson is the same. If that's the way it happens, in time I will find someone else - but only after I am healed and radiating confidence.
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Originally Posted by SteveS

I also had a long chat with my friend who ended up reconciling with his now wife, just getting an understanding of how he dealt with the rollercoaster of emotions. I'm paraphrasing, but he said he came on too strong in the early days and it almost completely killed what little they still had; it was only after giving her some space that it opened the door for them to have really honest discussions about what caused the split.

I'm going to try and keep that lesson in mind.


So DB'ing actually works? Huh. whistle


It did for him, yes.

I keep going back to something that SteveS said: you need to make WAW know that you've had an awakening, and you're prepared to go forward with or without her.

Well, I feel like I'm halfway there, at least as far as that maxim goes. I was doing some reading online earlier, and I saw a recommendation that to help clarify your feelings, it might be helpful to write out both what you want to get out of the S and what you'd want your WAW to say.

Me:

I am using this time to ask myself hard questions, reflect honestly about my role in the separation, and take action towards becoming a better partner. While ultimately it is my goal to reconcile with WAW, I do not want to go back to the relationship as it was as I do not wish to repeat the same hurtful patterns. Instead, I want to put the lessons I am learning into practice by being an emotionally open and fully communicative partner that WAW can trust and depend on. I know there is a lot of work to get there, but I am not giving up on us and I commit towards making myself a more emotionally healthy partner, and commit to taking the time necessary to rebuild the foundation.

Her:

I still have feelings for LBS, but I know that continuing the way we were going was only going to end up in divorce. We weren't communicating well, and we weren't being partners for each other - we were simply roommates. There was an elephant in the room, and the best way I knew to move forward was to separate and try to gain a new perspective on the relationship. I am not giving up on the marriage, nor am I using the time and space to explore other relationships. Instead I am using the time to reflect on how I contributed to the troubles we were having, and to continue with my individual counseling. I do not know if there is a future with Nik and I, but I do not want to give up.

Obviously these are things I'm keeping to myself. But I feel like I've gained a more clarity around what I need to, what works, and what doesn't. One day at a time.
Originally Posted by SteveS
I keep going back to something that SteveS said: you need to make WAW know that you've had an awakening, and you're prepared to go forward with or without her.

But here's the rub... you have to actually BE prepared to go forward with or without her. Otherwise you are just faking it and fooling yourself.
Hey SteveS -

Just checking in how things are going for you. My W and I took a 1 month break from MC and are going back next week - got me thinking about trial separations and MC and then “I wonder how things are with SteveS?”
Originally Posted by unchien
Hey SteveS -

Just checking in how things are going for you. My W and I took a 1 month break from MC and are going back next week - got me thinking about trial separations and MC and then “I wonder how things are with SteveS?”


Hey, thanks for checking in. I've been - and no offense to anyone - somewhat avoiding coming back here, because frankly I'm getting a lot of different advice and more than ever I'm confused about the "right" way to do things. This forum is particularly hard line on no contact, others think I should write a letter from a place of confidence and strength, others think I should just cut the cord, and on and on. So I took a break to focus on myself: reading books, working out, attending therapy, and all that good stuff.

Overall I'm in an OK place, or at least I was until today. Today was move out day, so it's goodbye to the marital home for not just her, but for me as well. It was really, really hard, and it's difficult to put a positive spin on it - it's smaller, it's in a busier neighborhood, further from work, and so on. And that's just the pragmatics; obviously it's super hard emotionally too.

WAW started a new job last week (for those who don't recall, she was consulting part-time while working on her act and in the community) and she's been even more busy than usual. I'm frustrated that she just doesn't really appear to be "working" on anything - her words were that she wanted the S to remove us from our negative behaviors, and for her to understand what she wanted and whether or not there was a future for the MR. Well, she just appears to me to be working and volunteering her self to death, and I know her well enough to do it's because she doesn't really want to think about or process anything painful.

She was also once super gung-ho about getting the legal separation documents out of the way, now it seems like it's #100 of her 100 priorities at any given time. I'm definitely scared it's just fizzling out at this point, but I don't know how to stop it. Relative to MC, we're still going on a bi-weekly basis, although she's going by herself this session because of one I had by myself a few sessions back. In that session, I was boosted a lot by our therapist, who said that he rarely sees a LBS take initiative and charge the way that I have.

Other than that, not much else has changed. GAL is going well, I feel better about myself physically and have noticed many women checking me out. Thanks to a few really good books ("Wired For Love" in particular, and of course NMMG) I'm very, very cognizant of the behaviors I brought to the table that caused the S. I'd be lying however if I said I didn't love my WAW and wish to reconcile, because I *know* armed with the things I know now, we'd have such a better time of it.
Posted By: kas99 Re: My story, trial separation for now, Part 2 - 09/23/19 10:00 PM
Quote
I'm frustrated that she just doesn't really appear to be "working" on anything - her words were that she wanted the S to remove us from our negative behaviors, and for her to understand what she wanted and whether or not there was a future for the MR. Well, she just appears to me to be working and volunteering her self to death, and I know her well enough to do it's because she doesn't really want to think about or process anything painful.


My WAH isn't coming back so my situation is different than yours. My WAH has done little more but work a lot since he left 6 months ago. He's either avoiding pain or he's saving money for his attorney.
Posted By: DS9 Re: My story, trial separation for now, Part 2 - 09/23/19 11:43 PM
Originally Posted by SteveS
[quote=unchien]Hey SteveS -

others think I should write a letter from a place of confidence and strength

Overall I'm in an OK place, or at least I was until today. Today was move out day, so it's goodbye to the marital home for not just her, but for me as well. It was really, really hard, and it's difficult to put a positive spin on it - it's smaller, it's in a busier neighborhood, further from work, and so on. And that's just the pragmatics; obviously it's super hard emotionally too.



Hey Steve, for what it's worth, I'd trust the veterans on here more than anything. Most of them are still here despite their M's being long gone, yet they continue to come and help people like you and me. That's priceless.

With that letter to her, do you think if you were in a place of strength and confidence you would feel the need to write it, let alone actually write it and give it to her.

Did you ever write her a nice note, poem, letter etc when things were good? If no, then even more reason not to write one to her now.

Don't write her a letter.

I hear you about your feelings in moving out mate. Hope you get out and buy lots of cool stuff to furnish your new home!
I agree with DS9. No letter.
Hello Steve,

I read your update. Sorry to hear about the move out.

It is difficult trying to balance the right approach to winning back your spouse. The conflicting advice is hard. The hard line advice about no contact is, IMO, mostly about respecting her space and showing her that you have heard her and respect her choice.

I downloaded snapchat last year bc one of my friends told me to. Now I hated snapchat but I did it anyways. The best part was that my W got a notification that I downloaded it. That prompted her to be interested in why I did it all of the sudden when she had told me to do it years ago and made her wonder who I was talking to. I deleted it 2 days later bc I didn't care to use it or figure it out. I think that helped my sitch. You want your contact with her to be intriguing, brief, confident. And that moment generated it for me, briefly.

You can also go the other way and be upfront about her saying one thing and doing another WRT the separation's true purpose. It's tough to do without her feeling the heat, but you may want to just get that off your chest too. I've been doing a better job of saying things and letting the chips fall where they and it has worked out fine.

I think your W being super busy is normal, but more importantly it is out of your hands. What does NMMNG say to do about those things?
Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
It is difficult trying to balance the right I think your W being super busy is normal, but more importantly it is out of your hands. What does NMMNG say to do about those things?


Well, the sticking point here is that I don't have any evidence that she's *not* doing the work she needs to do, either. I'm only assuming what she's doing at this point; the only real indicator I have of this is MC, which she agrees that we should still attend.

Long story short and to answer your question, NMMG would simply say to set boundaries (I've already said that I refuse to be a Plan B), and to let go of things you cannot control, such as her actions and motivations.
That's what I was thinking too.
Well, as might be expected, the topic of actions and motivations is rearing it's ugly head again.

As I mentioned, WAW started a new job recently, and as a result, it's been very hard to find time for us to attend MC. Our counselor doesn't have night sessions, and WAW doesn't want to upset the apple cart at her new job by taking 90 minutes out of her day to attend sessions.

I'm not pleased with this, because I don't have any indications at all that she's actually doing anything close to what she said she needed the separation for. We're not working on anything, as far as I can tell she's not really any closer to an understanding of what she wants -- all that's happening is this purgatory where everything is in limbo.

(For some time reference, married two years, together seven, no kids, separated for four months.)

So, I'm torn. Common advice on here seems like it would be to detach, not put pressure on the situation, and focus on my own growth. NMMG might recommend voicing your displeasure, and not allowing yourself to feel like a secondary option or for your time to be wasted.

Any thoughts?
Originally Posted by SteveS
I'm not pleased with this, because I don't have any indications at all that she's actually doing anything close to what she said she needed the separation for. We're not working on anything, as far as I can tell she's not really any closer to an understanding of what she wants -- all that's happening is this purgatory where everything is in limbo.


A lot of WAS's request separation so they can "get their head on straight" and "decide what they want". The LBS will willingly let them go and even help them if they think it's the way forward to recon. But that isn't really what the WAS wants, they just want out and they are dangling the false carrot of hope just to make things a little easier on themselves. It seems pretty clear your W was no interest in recon at this time. You've been S'd for 4 months, that probably seems like forever but it's really not that long. If she decides she wants back in the M it's likely to be at least twice that long.

Quote
So, I'm torn. Common advice on here seems like it would be to detach, not put pressure on the situation, and focus on my own growth. NMMG might recommend voicing your displeasure, and not allowing yourself to feel like a secondary option or for your time to be wasted.


I think NMMNG would have been to say something before she left. Something like "I would prefer for you to stay and work on the M, but if you choose to go then I will accept your decision" and then if she leaves, let her go and be done with her. It's too late to say something now, you're already separated. It's done. She doesn't want back, if she did you would be the first to know. So let her go, focus on you and give her maximum time and space.
Originally Posted by SteveS

So, I'm torn. Common advice on here seems like it would be to detach, not put pressure on the situation, and focus on my own growth. NMMG might recommend voicing your displeasure, and not allowing yourself to feel like a secondary option or for your time to be wasted.

Any thoughts?

Your question is framed in a way that maybe you are trying to control what happens.

Sometimes we get a little cultish here about standing our ground and being that lighthouse forever. Don't confuse the issue. The goal is not to win your W back. The goal is to become a healthier, happier Steve. 99 times out of 100 taking that time and space to work on ourselves and let go of the rope is the right decision.

But sometimes I think it isn't the right decision.

At some point, that may mean telling your W this isn't working for you. Or it might mean buckling down and detaching and focusing on yourself, continuing to stand. The more you go through this process, the more I think you will get in touch with your inner values and feelings. And this will help drive you to make confident, self-assured decisions about what you want to do next.

The problem I have with NMMNG is that us NGs can pretty easily do the "detach and relieve pressure" thing. It's not natural for us maybe, but it feels like we are "doing" something healthy and it certainly gets rid of any clingy or codependent behaviors. But real NG recovery involves being able to speak up for ourselves - the issue is that NGs have trouble even figuring out what their "self" wants to say. I'm not sure if this resonates for you, but it is how I feel. I am gradually getting in touch with my values, and with that, I become more confident. Once you hit a certain level of confidence, I think you will know internally what you want to do, whether that is continuing to stand, speaking up, moving on, what have you.

I'm encouraging you to focus on your values to make your decisions. We can give you advice what to say or do, but you will feel much happier about your decisions if they come from within, especially if you feel they are driven from your core values.
Originally Posted by "SteveS"
So, I'm torn. Common advice on here seems like it would be to detach, not put pressure on the situation, and focus on my own growth. NMMG might recommend voicing your displeasure, and not allowing yourself to feel like a secondary option or for your time to be wasted.

I see. So, it sounds like you feel torn between focusing on self-improvement while you wait for her to turn around, and voicing your displeasure and moving on.

The easy parts: First, self-improvement is good no matter what you do! Second, I think it's fine to voice your displeasure--once! No whining. After voicing your preferences, accept the outcome and make your moves.

"Wait" vs. "Hold Out" is hard, no? That's where DETACH and GAL are great. They straddle the line. I mean, whether you reconcile or date being 10# lighter with a stronger social circle and a more interesting life won't hurt! At some point hopefully you'll have the same answer everyday and it'll be time to act.

Just wanted to do some venting, because it's much better to do it here than elsewhere.

As I've posted before, WAW has just taken a new job. It's a great spot for her, and I'm glad to see her back in the working world. She had a solid career going before, but decided she wanted to give being an artist full-time a shot about two years ago, which we were able to do due to some great advancements in my career. It didn't work out - and caused a lot of stress between us - and now she's back to it.

We used to have bi-weekly MC sessions, which I've said to her and on here were important to me as a vehicle for us to keep working through problems, communicating, and moving forward. She's put a stop to it, using her new job as the reasoning, saying that she cannot find time with her new schedule to meet during the week. Meanwhile, I'm a C-level exec with a 80-person org, but I digress..

Anyway, since I'm terrible at detaching, this has got me in a bad mental spot. I don't think she's trying very hard, and I really have no evidence to prove otherwise. This just feels like the status quo for her. I don't know what she needs to figure out, or anything.

Not going to whine about it to her though. I've said my peace once: this is important to me. She is choosing to not take action to show me that it is important to her. It's frustrating and it hurts.
Steve, drop the MC. Your W's head isn't in it. You've got to forget these pretenses of thinking that you are piecing because you are not, and you need to fully embrace DB'ing. Get out and GAL. Give her time and space. If she decides she's ready to work on things you will be the first person to know. Until then LEAVE HER ALONE. If she asks why you've changed then tell her you realized her heart wasn't in it and you've decided YOU need some times and space from HER to weigh your options.
We are all terrible at detaching, but if we work it at we do get better at it. What new hobbies have you found now that you aren't spending as much time with you W? I regret not taking advantage of my separation more than I did and getting out more.

AS, I think Steve is saying that his W cancelled the MC already due to her new job.

Quote
Not going to whine about it to her though. I've said my peace once: this is important to me. She is choosing to not take action to show me that it is important to her. It's frustrating and it hurts.


Gotta drop those expectations! Can't believe anything she says and only half of what she does!
Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
What new hobbies have you found now that you aren't spending as much time with you W? I regret not taking advantage of my separation more than I did and getting out more.


I don't know if they're new per se, but definitely getting back to the old, more fit me - lots of soccer, flag football, and softball with friends. Gym on top of that. I've never felt or looked better from a purely physical perspective.

I am definitely having a hard time expanding my social circle given that I've generally had the same friend group for fifteen years and became so used to having a partner right there to do things with. That's the hardest ask of the two.

Thank you both for the input - I'm just having such a hard time right now trying to keep my head up and be optimistic. It really makes me feel sheepish more than anything else; I used to complain about the various things in my life that weren't perfect, but I want nothing more right now than to go back in time five years.
Past is past Steve, there´s depression there. Future brings you anxiety. Live the present. Detach and GAL.

One step after the other.

Go man.
Join meetup.com and look for groups that interest you?
Just checking back in, with some journaling. Might be a long one.

I'm going to be brutally honest with myself, and with you. This has been an awful week. Normally I'm fairly good at regulating my emotions and keeping it moving, but this week has been extremely difficult for me, triggered by two things:

First, WAW's continued lack of interest in MC. Yet again this week our counselor presented some alternative times for us to attend - for background, WAW's new job makes it difficult for her to attend during the day - and again, that new time didn't work for her. Now, I have no idea if she really had a conflict that she couldn't get around, but at this point it's impossible to believe that MC is a priority for her, at all. For context, I'm a C-level exec with a 70-person org, and I'm willing to move mountains to maintain MC as a lifeline; it's very clearly more important to me than it is to her. And that hurts.

Second, general unhappiness at work. Not necessary to go into details, but while I have an amazing role that many would be thrilled with, I'm just not - mostly because we've grown so much and the company culturally is so different than what I enjoy. I'm an entrepreneur, I like companies in their earlier stage...and this is just abjectly the opposite of that.

It's impossible to determine where my emotions regarding work and home separate; for example, I fought so hard for my job (and was happy to slog through it, despite some reservations and signs it was turning into something I didn't want) because I wanted to provide the best life for my family, and support WAW in her art. Now that we're S and she's got a full-time job, I find it harder and harder to justify doing something I don't enjoy - even though from a mercenary perspective, I'd be an idiot for leaving.

Communication with WAW has been basically zero, saved for a few logistical-based emails and texts here and there. At this point, this limbo is getting to be more painful than the actual separation was - there's just no shape to it, no signs of life at all, and I have no clue what to do next. I'm GALing and trying my best to maintain distance but I'm lonelier than ever and this all just feels extremely untenable.

I ask myself: what am I holding out for? At what point am I a blind fool, ignoring the obvious signs that WAW has no interest in reconciliation, and is just gradually winding things down? We've been S almost four months; it's past the time of "needing space", it's into "building a new life and seeing if that new life is better" territory, right?

I feel like I know the answer to those questions - they're obvious in her actions. And I feel like such a weak, passive fool for trying to fight, trying to find any positive ray of light that I see.

In my IC today, my therapist had mentioned that he maintains a lot of confusion about why the S happened - in his words, it just feels like one day my WAW woke up and decided she didn't want to be married anymore. It's true that there's a lot of things I'd have done differently, and certainly I've used the time we've been separated to read and learn and prepare a better version of myself for whatever future comes my way. But apart from a few general things, there's nothing I can really say to WAW; it's not as if I can say "Hey, I'm still me, I'm not drinking any more though" or anything like that. Something changed in her, and that's not something I can address or solve. It puts me in such a powerless position. Something has to suddenly become clear in her mind that she wants to try again with me, but nothing in her actions points to that being anywhere close to reality. And I have to be honest about that, no matter how much it hurts.

One thing my IC is really keen on - and probably to some disagreement on here - is that if there is to be any reconciliation, WAW is going to have to fall in love with me again, not for the best-version-of-myself person I've become during the S but the person I am, day-in and day-out. The person I am has agency and takes the bull by the horns; I've started companies, I've attacked goals, I've been relentless in going after the things that I want - my entire life has been a story of persistence and action. When I met WAW, I surprised her (in a good way, obviously) with how direct I was about my interest in her and the control I had on my life, which was so different than what she was seeing from other guys at the time. The person she fell in love with is active, not passive.

And so in that vein, the IC's advice is to go about things the same way I have throughout my life - make it clear to WAW that she's still important to me, that I'm willing to work on things, that I remain loyal and faithful to the vows I made. Not to just sit there, waiting for my life to just happen but taking action and ownership of the situation. He's not convinced that WAW knows just how much I'm hurting; he has some concerns that from her perspective, I might too be settling into a new normal that doesn't involve her. What he says makes logical sense, but it's incredibly scary. One, it's almost the direct opposite of advice on here, and two, it applies pressure to a situation in which I have almost no positive signs at all or leverage to work with.

And so I'm just confused, hurt, and more pessimistic than I've ever been. And pile onto that my unhappiness at work and I'm just having a rough, rough week. But I'm also at a complete loss for what to do next and becoming emotionally unable to continue in this limbo.

My birthday is next week - I'm fully prepared for her to do absolutely nothing. Even though I know, as I write that, that it would hurt me if that was the case because I'm looking a sign, any sign that she's still there, that I'm on her radar at all. I wish I could sit here and write this post from a place of strength and say I'm detached and it's my life and all of that, but I can't. It's four months in and I feel just as bad as I did in the very first day after BD.

Steve, you are stuck in a revolving door. I'm going to repost my last post to you, because nothing has changed:

Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Steve, drop the MC. Your W's head isn't in it. You've got to forget these pretenses of thinking that you are piecing because you are not, and you need to fully embrace DB'ing. Get out and GAL. Give her time and space. If she decides she's ready to work on things you will be the first person to know. Until then LEAVE HER ALONE. If she asks why you've changed then tell her you realized her heart wasn't in it and you've decided YOU need some times and space from HER to weigh your options.
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Steve, you are stuck in a revolving door. I'm going to repost my last post to you, because nothing has changed:

Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Steve, drop the MC. Your W's head isn't in it. You've got to forget these pretenses of thinking that you are piecing because you are not, and you need to fully embrace DB'ing. Get out and GAL. Give her time and space. If she decides she's ready to work on things you will be the first person to know. Until then LEAVE HER ALONE. If she asks why you've changed then tell her you realized her heart wasn't in it and you've decided YOU need some times and space from HER to weigh your options.


I hear you, but here's my push back. First, I don't believe it's bringing me any closer to my goal. We talk next to never, and we're more apart than we've ever been, both emotionally and physically. If I'm sitting back looking at this in five, ten years, am I going to have regrets about being passive and just letting things die on their own? I wouldn't be able to say that I did what I could, that I shot my shot, if I continue acting the way I'm acting.

She asked for space - I think I've gone above and beyond in giving it to her, more than almost anyone would. What's been advocated here is more and more and more and more, with zero evidence that continuing down that path will suddenly change things. I hear you when you say that this advice is given on the back of numerous examples, but it's really hard to go with that on faith when I feel as if I'm in a worse place than when I started.

Secondly, it's also not who I am. It's incredibly hard for me just to sit here and feel like it's slipping away, and tell myself to not do anything about it. I feel like the rules and advice are in place to avoid someone doing real damage: making demands, crying, pleading, begging, and demanding timelines. That hasn't been and will never be me - I just have to think there's some middle ground here, and I'm trying to find it.
Posted By: LH19 Re: My story, trial separation for now, Part 2 - 10/18/19 03:13 PM
S,

What you are experiencing is what as known as the “illusion of action” where you feel you need to do something. When in essence do nothing and giving her space is doing something. It’s actually even better because it’s what she wants so that means you are listening and understanding her. Everything you listed above is just your mind convincing you that it’s ok to pursue which is unfortunately the worst thing you can do right now.

Time and space are valuable for two reasons. One it helps you detach and two it gives her the opportunity to miss you. Hey I haven’t hear from Steve I wonder what he’s up to right now?

Right now you’re making decisions based on fear and what you fear you attract.
Hey Steve,

I thought about what you said in regards to your convo with your IC. I see some logic in that. This method worked in the first place. It attracted her before. I'm also wary though, as even you said that it applies pressure to a situation with almost no positive signs.

I too am confused on why the separation happened in the first place. Can you explain that further?

Originally Posted by SteveS
We've been S almost four months; it's past the time of "needing space", it's into "building a new life and seeing if that new life is better" territory, right?


I think most of these sitches take longer than that to play out.

Originally Posted by SteveS
I ask myself: what am I holding out for?
You are holding out because you love her, married her, and believe in your vows. This is a hard time, which you signed up for.

Originally Posted by SteveS
One thing my IC is really keen on - and probably to some disagreement on here - is that if there is to be any reconciliation, WAW is going to have to fall in love with me again
This is hard for me to say. Last May I read a text from my WW to her friend that said basically "I love Over, but I am in love with OM". Yet my W kept contacting me, kept coming back to me. So my experience goes against what your IC says in a way. But on the other hand, I do think we need to be building up our "in love" feelings to get through this.

Originally Posted by SteveS
But apart from a few general things, there's nothing I can really say to WAW
What are the general things?

On the flip side, I believe her actions are speaking in regards to MC. Your words were "I'm willing to move mountains to maintain MC as a lifeline", and I believe you would take quick action to support that. Her actions show you that her head is not in the same place.

For now, with her not attending, it seems as if MC has been dropped, which is what AS is suggesting you do. I think you do nothing with regards to MC for the short term. Maybe you should consider your pursuit plan though. Have you pursued at all since the separation began? I think you did a little, but it has been a while.

When's the last time you've read DR?

Originally Posted by SteveS
If I'm sitting back looking at this in five, ten years, am I going to have regrets about being passive and just letting things die on their own? I wouldn't be able to say that I did what I could, that I shot my shot, if I continue acting the way I'm acting.
What things can you do to arouse interest in her? Last year I downloaded Snapchat ( I hate Snapchat and my W knew that) because a friend said to. I got a bunch of texts and calls. My W assumed I was chatting with other women on there and quizzed me about it. Is there something like this that is maybe an indirect way of grabbing attention? Personally I wouldn't want to go peacocking past her if I was you, but there's got to be a way to arouse some interest.

I thought this post was going to be a quickie, ha.
Originally Posted by SteveS
I hear you, but here's my push back. First, I don't believe it's bringing me any closer to my goal. We talk next to never, and we're more apart than we've ever been, both emotionally and physically. If I'm sitting back looking at this in five, ten years, am I going to have regrets about being passive and just letting things die on their own? I wouldn't be able to say that I did what I could, that I shot my shot, if I continue acting the way I'm acting.


LH described it well, the "illusion of action" syndrome that strikes a lot (most, if not all) of LBS's. Another way to look at it is this, what if you take the "Fireproof" approach and buy her gifts, write her love letters, sell your belongings and take all your savings and buy her some touching gift, and all of that gets you nowhere. In 5 or 10 years will you be looking back saying "gee I sure wish I had DB'd instead of all that crazy pursuit behavior!"? Because what I can tell you from my many years here is pursuit has NEVER, EVER brought a WAS back. Not one single time! But time and space and distance? Yes, it has resulted in numerous recons.

DBing does not have a 100% success rate. But the beauty of it is even if it doesn't result in recon, it puts you in a position to move on as a better person. Pursuit behavior? It kills any chance of recon and does not give you one bit of personal growth to take into your future life and relationships.

Push back on your push back grin

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She asked for space - I think I've gone above and beyond in giving it to her, more than almost anyone would. What's been advocated here is more and more and more and more, with zero evidence that continuing down that path will suddenly change things. I hear you when you say that this advice is given on the back of numerous examples, but it's really hard to go with that on faith when I feel as if I'm in a worse place than when I started.


Far too soon to know. I know 4 months seems like an eternity but DB'ing doesn't work that fast (nor any other technique).

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Secondly, it's also not who I am. It's incredibly hard for me just to sit here and feel like it's slipping away, and tell myself to not do anything about it. I feel like the rules and advice are in place to avoid someone doing real damage: making demands, crying, pleading, begging, and demanding timelines. That hasn't been and will never be me - I just have to think there's some middle ground here, and I'm trying to find it.


DB'ing is COUNTERINTUITIVE. That's why you feel like it's not "who you are". Every fiber of your being is telling you to pursue her, because if you don't it'll give her the wrong impression. The reason we men are wired this way is because after a normal fight or argument or disagreement then pursuit behavior is EXACTLY what is needed. Buy her flowers, apologize, ask her out to dinner. Before you know it things are back to normal. But when you get BD'd, the old rules no longer apply. It is completely different than anything you've EVER gone through! DBing is your best chance, but you've got to trust it, and suppress what your inner voice is telling you.
Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
What things can you do to arouse interest in her? Last year I downloaded Snapchat ( I hate Snapchat and my W knew that) because a friend said to. I got a bunch of texts and calls. My W assumed I was chatting with other women on there and quizzed me about it. Is there something like this that is maybe an indirect way of grabbing attention? Personally I wouldn't want to go peacocking past her if I was you, but there's got to be a way to arouse some interest.


^^^YES^^^ My take on this is you do it by getting out, GAL'ing, getting back in touch with old friends, making new ones. The byproduct of that is you'll be getting and returning a lot of calls and texts which communicates to her that you are BUSY and HIGH VALUE. Even if it's nothing but guys you're talking to, she doesn't know that. She just sees you reading, smiling, laughing, replying and it'll make her wonder what you're up to.
SteveS,

You are in a tough spot.

You mention having the goal of reconciling. Your IC is giving you advice on things to try. The hardest part of DB is letting go of that goal. I think of it like a Zen paradox... you can still want it, but you can't let that desire affect your actions and behaviors and thoughts. This is virtually impossible to do in practice. So what is advised is a "fake it 'til you make it" approach.

The alternative is to let that R goal whip you around like a sail in the wind. I sense you are struggling with this right now. You want to do something (as others have said). You don't want to look back and regret sitting back and "doing nothing" (which is what DB can feel like).

I've been talking with my IC about dealing with the self-doubt you describe. The feeling that "if I had just done something different..." I could have saved things. It's especially painful because my WAW has said things like "You didn't win me back" or "You didn't seem to try." She asked me point blank "Do you still have romantic feelings for me?" She wanted this to not be all on her. All of this feedback reinforced my own doubts about DB strategies and whether they were right. And then I remembered... I bought her flowers, I made her birthday special, I wrote her love letters, I wrote her little notes every day. This was NOT about me losing interest. I did try. I did fight in my way to win her back. We just reached a point where she wanted space, and her heart was closed off.

My point is... don't beat yourself up over whether you have picked the "right" strategy. As somebody posted above, if you have to be the best version of yourself to win her back, that's not really you. We all have bad days. Love is about appreciating the flaws in someone else.

I'm also reacting to your mix of feeling down about your situation and your work. One skill I've learned here is when I feel emotionally disrupted, take some time and just let things settle. Don't ruminate, don't act, just let it settle. You mentioned it's hard to separate what is causing what, so this may help you out. I was down yesterday and couldn't pinpoint why for similar reasons. These things are cyclical.

You and I have posted about NGS. It is very much an NGS tendency to try to think of effective strategies to "win" our WAW's back. "How can I please her?" or "How can I attract her?" It's not all on you! Relationships are 50/50. She has to WANT to come back to the table. It may be today, tomorrow, 5 years down the road, or never. But she has to see value in you. Doing more attractive things is great, but do those things for you, and not for the hope of winning her back.

My last point... I don't want to guess what your WAW is thinking. You mentioned feeling like a fool and that things are obviously over. I completely get this. You feel passive and weak. Here's the thing: You do have control. You can't control your WAW, but you can control you. It feels like waiting passively because you are framing your life around her. Reframe things.
Thank you all for the replies and advice. I do appreciate it, even if I sometimes push back and/or don't put it into practice.

I had a good night last night, got together with some of my oldest friends and just leaned on them a little. I'm lucky to have that support.

I started re-reading a few of my books, and the prevailing lesson I'm telling myself is not to panic - so much damage is done by doing things out of panic and fear. So for as uncomfortable and confused I am, I'm telling myself to get through the day, focus on myself, and then see what tomorrow brings.

I do still have a lot of ambivalence in a few areas; for example, NGS would tell me that I'm currently being a classic nice guy, subverting my needs (more clarity on whether or not she's still in this, for example) out of an abundance of consideration for what she's asked for (space). I feel like there has to be some kind of middle ground - I don't need to know the solution or all of the answers; it would just be so meaningful for me to know that she's still here, that she's still in this.

Most everyone I speak to about this tells me "S, you've got needs too, you've been as understanding as one could possibly be about this scenario, it's not unreasonable to ask for more clarity" - although I know that many on here would disagree. I know that my need for this information is coming out of my own insecurity and would simply demonstrate my lack of detachment..but it's tough. Every day is tough, when there's no communication and no insight and on and on.

I know, detach. GAL. I'm mostly just venting.

SteveS,

One way to frame your quest for clarity would be to ask: If you had that clarity, what would you choose to do next? What if she told you "I just don't know, I still need some space"?

What if she wasn't really in it today, but next week she was? Or next month? Or next year?

Maybe she can't provide clarity right now.

Most everyone suggested after awhile that I take action as well. They aren't in your shoes. They don't understand fully what it's like. Ultimately, you are in control of your life, and you get to make the decisions.

If you are firm in your belief that you need clarity, that you are ready to make decisions about your life regardless of what she says, and that you are now operating on your own timeline, then that is one thing. If your need for clarity is actually a desire for some flicker of reassurance, well, I think you know what to do.
Originally Posted by unchien
SteveS,

One way to frame your quest for clarity would be to ask: If you had that clarity, what would you choose to do next? What if she told you "I just don't know, I still need some space"?

What if she wasn't really in it today, but next week she was? Or next month? Or next year?

Maybe she can't provide clarity right now.

Most everyone suggested after awhile that I take action as well. They aren't in your shoes. They don't understand fully what it's like. Ultimately, you are in control of your life, and you get to make the decisions.

If you are firm in your belief that you need clarity, that you are ready to make decisions about your life regardless of what she says, and that you are now operating on your own timeline, then that is one thing. If your need for clarity is actually a desire for some flicker of reassurance, well, I think you know what to do.


Thanks for the input. I think if her answer was that she still needed more time and space, I'd understand and respect that. If the answer was that she's not in this, and she's not willing to work - would I pull the trigger? I don't know.

You're right though - more than anything else, this is about reassurance. Reassurance that I'm not being foolish for still holding on. Reassurance that she's taking this as seriously as I am. Reassurance that she doesn't know, or else we'd be heading down one road or another.

Your point is correct; if it's about reassurance, then it's not about her at all, it's about me. It's about me being a leaf in the wind, getting tossed about by any action (or lack of action) coming from her. And that's a terrible, unsustainable place to be.

But I'm going to be emotionally open about this: I don't feel strong right now. I almost don't even know how to fake it. I love my wife and I want to try again, try anything.

Some of you who made it to the other side of this must have iron for insides because this is just insanely brutal. I don't know how anyone does it.
Originally Posted by SteveS
Thanks for the input. I think if her answer was that she still needed more time and space, I'd understand and respect that. If the answer was that she's not in this, and she's not willing to work - would I pull the trigger? I don't know.

I hate giving advice here - it seems like based on your answer I don't think asking for clarity is necessarily going to help you right now.

Originally Posted by SteveS
Some of you who made it to the other side of this must have iron for insides because this is just insanely brutal. I don't know how anyone does it.

I am also in awe of some of the people here. I've seen enough of a glimpse of the other side to have faith I can get there.

We don't have iron for insides. This stuff hurts. It hurts like he**. It is traumatizing.

What has really helped me is to think about what I would want my W to work on. And I revisit it constantly when I am in doubt. I think... "This relationship could never really work if she did not at least start to address XYZ, and at least be willing to have a conversation about it." I have much more resolve feeling like it's not just me waiting for her to jump back into my arms. Not sure that helps, but it does flip my mindset a little bit.

Take care, SteveS - it's a marathon, we all have good days and bad days.
Originally Posted by SteveS
Most everyone I speak to about this tells me "S, you've got needs too, you've been as understanding as one could possibly be about this scenario, it's not unreasonable to ask for more clarity"

If they're suggesting >>you've been as understanding as one could possibly be<<, that implies you should >>stop being understanding<< if she respond in an unclear way. What hard action(s) are they actually suggesting? Are you willing to follow-through with those actions?

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I think if her answer was that she still needed more time and space, I'd understand and respect that. If the answer was that she's not in this, and she's not willing to work - would I pull the trigger? I don't know.

So, you plan to respond with more "being understanding". You have not reached your personal limit. Did you inform "most everyone" that you would just continue "being understanding" after seeking reassurance?

I don't have iron insides. It's easier to pose tough questions than to answer them.

Take care and good fortune!
Hi everyone, just wanted to give a quick update.

So I'm now in the same camp as the rest of you - no pushing for MC, no asking if she's still in it. If either happens on their own or due to movement on the part of WAW, great - I'll be happy and take that as a step in the right direction. Otherwise, putting pressure on things and trying to enforce change isn't the right move.

Things will unfold how they unfold and the best thing I can do is make a plan for how I'm going to take care of myself, how I'm going to improve my ability to be a better partner in whatever my next relationship is, and how I'm going to achieve my goals in the next year. It's obviously difficult, but I'm trying to frame this time in my life as a positive thing; it hurts and it's insanely difficult, but I can either use this time to feel sorry for myself or I can use this time to grow. I'm going to choose the latter. And if we do R, I'll (and we'll) be in a better place for it.

Four months seems like an eternity, but I'm coming around to the idea that it's really not. Of course I'm scared that we'll just fade away, that we'll just lose touch - I think everyone in my/our situations feels like that. It's hard to have a lot of optimism and blindly assume that WAW does miss me and does love me and all of that. But it is what it is.
Posted By: LH19 Re: My story, trial separation for now, Part 2 - 10/22/19 06:08 PM
Great post S. My story took about 3.5 years to play out and sometimes I feel it’s still not over.

If you keep that outlook you can’t lose.
Just doing some journaling. It's going to be a long one.

I'll start by being honest - I've been avoiding things on here because frankly it makes me feel worse - lots of tales of heartache, irrational spouses, and tons of unsuccessful attempts at reconciliation. I'm an optimistic type and I almost never more optimistic coming here; the counterargument of course is that this forum represents reality and I'm not willing to look at my situation pragmatically. But I thank you all who have been hanging in with me.

I do have a big update: I was fired from my job. (For some background, I was a C-level exec at a large tech company.) And I have to be honest - I was bummed for about an hour, and that's it. They mercy killed me. I was unhappy there for a variety of reasons and was planning to resign on my own once more of shares vested. Long story short, I've known the CEO for five years, and he sat me down and said, "Look, I know you, you're not happy here, and you're not giving me your best - we need to move in a different direction". He was 100% right in his assessment, and 100% right to do what's best for the company.

So, instead of resigning in six months and receiving nothing, I've got a really nice severance package coming and tons of free time to get back to what I truly enjoy - early stage tech. When I met W, I was just starting my company, and she was by my side through the whole thing, all the way through the sale to my now ex-company and my shift into a corporate suit. When W quit her job after the sale to focus on her art, I was forced to really focus on things I didn't like: the corporate ladder, politics, that sort of thing. I was miserable, and when I look back on it, that's really when the troubles really accelerated between her and me - I'd come home with a cloud over my head, have a difficult time communicating it, and have an even harder time being vulnerable and sharing emotions.

Now she's gone, and my main reason for being in a work situation I didn't like isn't there anymore. So while it's never fun when someone says it's over (oh, the parallels..), this is a good thing for me and I walk away with lots of opportunities and a nice payout as well.

So, now back to my love life. Or lack thereof. WAW and I actually have been in communication more; she's sent me over a couple of links that she correctly knew I'd enjoy, and we've been back and forth on some logistical things and everything continues to be cordial and friendly. One of my 180s is being very proactive around the management of our lives; she always said she had to do so much to keep things on track, so I've taken the reins of organizing our finances, taking care of little things like getting new rental insurance, and generally pulling more weight. Relative to the job, I reached out to WAW to let her know, partly because of the finances and partly because she's on my healthcare and open enrollment is happening. We talked for 10-15 minutes by phone, and that's basically it.

The kicker: my birthday was two weeks ago, and nothing. No email, no text, nothing. And it was really, really hurtful. And of course, I know I shouldn't have had much by way of expectations, but it really took my legs out. She knows when my birthday is, and she knows that I know, so her not saying anything is a specific choice - she knew what she was doing.

And so while I'm not going to say anything to her about it, I'm finding it harder and harder to understand at all where this is going. I don't even know her perspective for why we separated, I certainly don't know what her plans are moving forward or where her head is at for starting to address the issues.

What I do know that I'm doing a terrible job of detachment; some days I feel like I'm making progress, other days I feel like it's a struggle to even get out of bed. But if there's one emotion I feel - and my therapist reminds me that it's very important to name your emotions - more than anything else, I'm embarrassed to say, is fear. I'm scared that I'll never even have the chance to show her the changes I've made. I'm scared that I'll never find someone I loved like her, and I'm scared that I'm too old to start over. I'm scared that I'll always have this heartache, stuck in a loop of beating myself up over all of the things I did wrong. And I feel like a fool for fighting, for wanting to work, for holding out hope when there's just nothing for that hope to be tied to.

But it's been four months. My friends think that's forever, but everyone on here thinks that not a lot of time at all. You're the experts so I tend to agree with you. But this is awful and so painful. On the flip side, I'm not at the end of my rope and it's unequivocally true that I love her and earnestly believe that this time (and the things I've learned in the interim) can be used for us to return to the R stronger than ever.

So, I'm going to focus on all of my new professional opportunities, continue to work on my emotional and physical health and try to just take it day by day. I don't know what else to do but GAL, and I guess hope that something magical happens where the ice thaws and we can just start at square one, going back to enjoying each other's company. I don't know what else to do. Maybe there isn't anything more.

Hi SteveS

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What I do know that I'm doing a terrible job of detachment; some days I feel like I'm making progress, other days I feel like it's a struggle to even get out of bed. But if there's one emotion I feel - and my therapist reminds me that it's very important to name your emotions - more than anything else, I'm embarrassed to say, is fear. I'm scared that I'll never even have the chance to show her the changes I've made. I'm scared that I'll never find someone I loved like her, and I'm scared that I'm too old to start over. I'm scared that I'll always have this heartache, stuck in a loop of beating myself up over all of the things I did wrong. And I feel like a fool for fighting, for wanting to work, for holding out hope when there's just nothing for that hope to be tied to.


I like many of us on here have been fighting with this. Some days i feel strong and confident, other days i have to run to the bathroom at work so nobody sees me crying. I too fear the same things you do. Will I ever meet someone that i can give my love to, and they will love me back? Will I ever get out of this nightmare?

I guess all we can do is keep standing and fighting for ourselves. Not fighting for our M or hoping to R with our wives. But REALLY getting out there and doing the best with what we've got. I know I'll be ok with or without her, it's just getting to that other side that I have trouble seeing- even though I know it is there. hang in there my friend- i'll be doing the same.
Steve, there isn't anything you're going through that I haven't been through too. The self doubt, the fear, the uncertainty..... I suspect every one of us on here have experienced exactly the same thing.

Keep your chin up, though. It does get better with time.

I'm sorry about your job. It's nearly always better to leave on your own terms, but maybe not in this case.

As far as you and WAW, ya, it stinks she didn't acknowledge your birthday. Maybe she's struggling to find the new normal and failed this time. I don't know.

I wouldn't worry though about her not seeing your 180s. She'll see them or hear about them through friends.
SteveS...

I've been through all that you say (including getting blown off on my birthday and father's day) so trust me when I tell you this...you will be fine and there is life and love after this chapter you are going through now ends. You are simply moving through at your own pace and process the space between chapters.

One thing I would share with you that helped me was "stop grieving over what you lost and start living on what you've got left. You can make it on broken pieces."

Keep your head up and moving forward.

-B
Steve,

a lot of the people who reconcile here don't stick around. The people needing help do.

I'm glad you're out of the corporate world. I couldn't do it, especially in the big city where you are.

I never cared about doing anything for my birthday until my birthday when my W was gone. I know how that feels Steve. She still cares or she would be 1000 miles away by now.

Nobody knows where your sitch is going, not you, not your W, not us.

Face your fears the best way you know how. Ultimately, you will overcome those fears. You're a smart guy, you know women want what you have to offer, you know there are more out there, you know you can do this again if you have to.

I think your GAL needs to involve some social events. Are you dressing well when you go out? Smiling, having fun, talking to all women? I think an ego boost from women might just help assuage your fears. It changed my mindset drastically last August.
Need some quick advice from the vets, please.

So things have been marginally better this week - we're still mostly talking about logistical issues, but she's been as friendly as she's always been, and we've thrown in some back and forth jokes just like old times. Nothing big, but it's been nice.

I've been diligent on my 180s in the logistics (she often complained that she shouldered all of the emotional labor and management tasks around the house), so I've taken on the tasks of organizing our budget, updating our rental insurance, and so on. So now we're in the spot where she's visibly seeing how I'm taking care of business w/r/t my life and by extension, hers.

Anyway, she asked me this morning if I could help her again with her friend's webpage. Her friend is running for office and WAW is her campaign manager. She's computer-savvy but not in this area, whereas it's something I know like the back of my hand. I want to help her - I really enjoyed helping her with it before - and I think any opportunity to remind her of my talents and working together to solve problems is a good thing. However, I am wary of being taken advantage of, and I'm a little miffed at her ask given how little effort she puts into the things that are important to me, such as finding time for counseling or even saying hello on my birthday.

I don't want a big fight, but I don't know how to proceed effectively, either. Any ideas?
Tricky, tricky, tricky...

I say go and help her because she hasn't seen you much. I think you go put your best foot forward, but possibly have somewhere to be afterwards, depending on the time and situation.

If you don't want a big fight, then don't push anything like the counseling or birthday acknowledgements. If she cared about your needs right now then she would be acting differently, but that's not the case currently so let it be IMO.

So go and put on a happy face and have no expectations.
Yeah I agree with ovrr- very tricky. But potentially an opportunity to display some changes you have made.

I would say help her - but do it as a friendly neighbor would - calm, polite, agreeable. Definitely don't say anything about the birthday or counseling, you want to avoid any touchy topics like you would the plague. You want her to see you in the best light possible.

If you need to meet, keep away from all talk of R. Let her do most of the talking. Like 80-85%.

I will say it is interesting that she asked for your help. I wouldn't read into it at all, but I think it's ok for you to privately celebrate this small moment of positivity before you continue on with your GAL and personal development.

Stay strong, Steve! smile
Originally Posted by IronWill
Yeah I agree with ovrr- very tricky. But potentially an opportunity to display some changes you have made.

I would say help her - but do it as a friendly neighbor would - calm, polite, agreeable. Definitely don't say anything about the birthday or counseling, you want to avoid any touchy topics like you would the plague. You want her to see you in the best light possible.

If you need to meet, keep away from all talk of R. Let her do most of the talking. Like 80-85%.

I will say it is interesting that she asked for your help. I wouldn't read into it at all, but I think it's ok for you to privately celebrate this small moment of positivity before you continue on with your GAL and personal development.

Stay strong, Steve! smile


Thanks both - we're going to meet up early next week to solve the problem. Mostly just said that I'd be happy to help, and after she expressed some concern and frustration with the problems, that I was sure we'd be able to figure it out together. Looking forward to it.

Interestingly, when I replied back (this was all via text, our preferred communication medium), we also had a nice back-and-forth about the work trip she's currently on, with her sharing that she was exhausted from the travel, had a really frightening turbulence incident, and was thankful of the things I've been doing to keep things organized. Good opportunity for me to just listen and break some ice a little.

So yeah, small win.
Hi everyone, I just wanted to share an update - partly for some thoughts from the gallery, and partly to help myself process some of the things that I'm feeling.

WAW did sit down about two weeks ago to go over a few logistical things - and we sat for a good two hours. It was really nice, actually. We definitely still have the same rapport we always did - we can make each other laugh so easily and when we actually sit down together, it feels so natural and fun. That part still is there, which is really the only thing keeping me optimistic.

She also was more emotionally open that she's been in forever, sharing about her new job, her frustration with traveling, being scared at really bad turbulence, and so on. It feels like some ice is being broken, but it's still pulling teeth to get her to actually find the time, and of course, going back to MC is out of the question right now. It's very clear that she doesn't want to move on, but she doesn't want to work on things, either. So it's the same limbo. But it's nice whenever we actually do sit down - we end up just enjoying other's company like we always did.

In my last conversation with my therapist, I said something along the lines "Well, this [censored], but I'm sure she knows how I feel", to which my therapist disagreed. He said "You've given her the space she wanted. In her mind, you're doing your thing, she sees you on IG playing softball and on the beach - it's very possible that she has no idea how much this has hurt you, or the things that you've done to improve yourself since".

I semi-agree and I semi-disagree; WAW knows me well enough to know that reconciliation is my goal, even if I'm out there getting a life. Giving space is not the same as giving up. But one thing he did recommend is that in the spirit of the season - and in a 180 to my refusal to be emotionally open and vulnerable during the MR - was to send a Christmas card with a heartfelt letter attached.

And so I did, even though I sort of knew that the veterans on here would disagree. The letter was kind of just putting it out there - I took ownership of things I contributed to the S, I talked about the ways I've addressed my issues through counseling and reading, my belief that I'm not the same person that I once was, my view of this is a positive thing despite all of the pain, and so on. I do firmly believe that if we did reconcile, things would be profoundly different, and I believe all of the positive rapport that we do have is rare and is worth fighting for.

Christmas itself was really, really hard. For the last seven years, we'd spend Christmas with her family in DC. She's got a big, loving Greek family - very much like the movies - and for as nice as it is to spend some time with my family, it's just not the same. It feels like I've lost like 75% of the people that I care about, and it really hurts. Someone from her side has reached out to me very, very rarely - and while it was nice to hear that they don't really understand what happened, either - it hurts to feel erased, like I don't really exist from their perspective.

I did text WAW to wish her a Merry Christmas, and she replied a few hours later, and confirmed that she got the card. The #1 thing I really can't understand - and it's possible I'm reading way too much into things - is that there's such a difference in between the way she is when we're actually sitting down and working on things and the way she is at other times. When we're together, she's upbeat and we have fun and I can make her laugh, but other times she just seems so aloof and almost angry. When she didn't reach out to me at all on my birthday (and I assume she wouldn't have reached to me on Christmas if I didn't text her first), my therapist said that an action like that is the action of an angry person...but I just don't know why she has that anger. I still don't really know why this happened. I'm giving her the space that she wants, I feel like I'm going above and beyond to operate without any clarity from her side.

As far as me, I may have mentioned that I left my job, and I'm knee-deep in spinning up a new venture of my own. Talking to investors, making pitches, etc - back to the early-stage grind. It's exciting and stressful, but I'm a lot happier than I was in my old job. The lack of structure and consistent days certainly gives me more time (especially now given the holidays) to think about my situation, but I think I need to be nice to myself on that topic. Just feel what I feel, let it sink in.

New Years is going to suck too - being on my own for one, and last year WAW and I went on a trip to Cancun together, and it was really the last time in retrospect that I can remember feeling really confident that our MR was on the right track. 2019 sucked, and I wish I could just erase it. But I was talking to a friend the other night, and he asked me, "How long does this last? How long can you do this?" and as much as this hurts, I have to hold out hope. I still love her. I know things would be better. And so I guess I'm going to keep working on myself and until I'm at my breaking point or she says that it's over, I will be here. It makes me feel powerless and weak and naive, but I don't want to give up. Not yet.

Anyway, sorry for the filibuster of an update, and thanks for listening/reading. Any comments are helpful.
Posted By: LH19 Re: My story, trial separation for now, Part 2 - 12/26/19 05:55 PM
S,

Giving space is to eliminate pressure. Sending the letter was pressure. 5 years on this board and have yet to see a letter work. If this was Hollywood then maybe it would be a different story. You operating under the illusion of action right now and your pursuit is only going to push her farther away.
Originally Posted by LH19
S,

Giving space is to eliminate pressure. Sending the letter was pressure. 5 years on this board and have yet to see a letter work. If this was Hollywood then maybe it would be a different story. You operating under the illusion of action right now and your pursuit is only going to push her farther away.


Yes, I definitely hear you and understand that this would be the opinion held by the board.

I'll willingly admit a lot of my actions with regard to the letter were actions of fear, and actions of discomfort with my complete lack of agency. I do agree with my therapist though that I don't think WAW knows how much this has affected me, nor does she know the things I've been doing in the interim to improve myself.

Either way, it's sent and even if I have sender's remorse about it, I can't un-flip that switch.

There's such a weird game theory to this. I have to believe that so much of my WAW's actions are because she has no credible fear that I would ever just walk away, she knows (and she's probably right) that she holds the cards. And that's just such a crappy, uncomfortable position for me to be in.
Posted By: LH19 Re: My story, trial separation for now, Part 2 - 12/26/19 06:14 PM
S,

Here’s the rub Steve, she knows but doesn’t care. When they get to the point where they are chasing happiness there isn’t anything that is going to stop her.

Yep. The person who cares the least is in charge of the relationship. She knows it and loves it. How do you change the dynamic?
Posted By: LH19 Re: My story, trial separation for now, Part 2 - 12/26/19 06:16 PM
Yes 99% percent of the things people do on the board is because of fear and trying to stop the pain. It just so happens that these things are counterintuitive and usually make matters worse.
SteveS -

One thing that always frustrated me was that my WAW did not understand my POV at all. She still doesn’t. I’ve said point blank to her face (in front of the MC) things that she has apparently ignored. Either she knows but doesn’t care, or her own reality is so distorted that she discarded whatever I said and forgot about it.

The illusion is that your W cares about your opinions and feelings. Right now she doesn’t. That may change. But you can’t be the agent of change. It’s up to her.

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My story, trial separation for now, Part 3
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