Midlife wife crisis8 - DivorceBusting.com

Previous thread.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=62255&Number=2855064#Post2855064

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I am so depressed in the mornings it�s terrible

Your thoughts are doing this to you. You need to change your thoughts. This is a learned skill. Stop thinking of the past. Stop thinking about what "should" be.

Get yourself in the moment. Wake up, take 5 really deep breaths. Just enjoy the feeling of the breathing. Stay in the moment. Don't think about anything. Get in the shower. Enjoy the feeling of the warm water. Enjoy the smell of your shampoo. If you don't like the smell, throw it away and go shampoo shopping find some you do like the smell of.

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I understand my w love language but unfortunately it is too late.

This is BS. Your brain has to be right. If you believe your statement, then you are right. Challenge this. Tell yourself it is not too late.

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In case you are wondering when I am with my kids I am not like this. When my w is around I am upbeat and fun. Like the saying goes you have to fake it until you make it.

You need to be like this with everyone all the time. That is the KEY!!

Do you ride motorcycle? I am always "present" while riding. Always feels good to stop thinking and just be.

I have always wanted a motorcycle, but my W would be so pissed. She thinks they are so dangerous, and it is irresponsible since we have kids. I guess divorce isn't irresponsible.

I have a motorcycle, it is very much an 'in the moment' thing to do.

You smell every smell, see way more things, and hear and feel more too.

Take a safety course. That is a responsible thing to do.

W would be pissed. Sounds like a tough thing for her to deal with. Must be so frustrating for her.

R2C you are a very wise person. I like the idea of the shampoo that would probably help. How can I tell myself if its not too late? I was in the pool with the kids today and w said she has an appointment with the mortgage broker to refinance this way she can buy me out. She also called the lawyer to see what was going on with the paperwork. It�s very obvious she is done, gone, no coming back.unfortunately I know what she wants from a relationship now, I will never have that chance to show her. It�s her loss!! I know I am a catch, I�m attractive, in good shape, good job, hard working, fun, loving and dedicated to who ever I am with. She let her emotions get the best of her and she thinks the grass is greener. Good luck!! Also I am upbeat with most people. There are a few very close friends and family I will vent to.

I don�t have a motorcycle would I would love to get is a jetski. I can�t now because of money. This divorce is going to be a financial struggle for me. Between the child support and the cost of NY. This will be a struggle. Damn her for putting our family through this!!!

Originally Posted by Wolfman

Damn her for putting our family through this!!!

Just remember in her mind what she is doing is justified, whether or not you agree she believes she is right. This is why we must just give them time and space. Do not react to anything she says. GAL!

Everyone says to give her time and space. Well it looks like I will have permanent time and space. I know they feel justified in what they are doing. In their mind it�s my fault they are doing this. I get all of that. It�s time for me to really prepare for my new reality. My new life!!! Gal has helped. Doing a lot of reading on here and in books has helped. Too bad for her she is going to miss out on Wolfman 2.0!!! Like I said mornings are hard for me, for whatever reason. I will be ready for my new life in my new house. Looking forward to dating when this is all said and done. I will tell you there is a lot less stress when she isn�t around. I guess for so long I have a hard time of letting go of the past. Once I�m in my new house I will be ready to start over. I guess it�s the limbo that makes it hard.

Satan lies with partial truths and justifications for abandoning vows that are supposed to be unified by God, and not feelings, and not the state, the heart can be deceived. Romantic Love is blind. Real love is commitment to persevere through all. When God goes quiet and removes himself from us when we sin, but he still loves us hoping we will come back to him and Jesus Christ. Our Bridegroom. Just like we remove ourselves when our spouses hurt us and our families (yes sometimes justified for leaving, but doesn't make it right.) but that doesn't mean we ever stop loving them. Suffering is good, it brings change for growth and repentance, it is necessary. There is no growth in a contentious life. Put your focus in Christ, and you will start to change the things you thought you could not on your own accord. Our spouses must fall from grace to come back. This is what I learned today.

I finally get how the natural conflicts with the spiritual, and how all of DB principles parallels, but is paradoxical with the bible's teachings.

IH that was a little to religious for me. I�m sorry I just don�t follow all of that. I am catholic but didn�t follow what you were putting down. I have prayed for 11 months for this to be fixed and I�m still In The same position.

I would separate the "Money" from the "Seducing Wife back".

Originally Posted by Wolfman

she has an appointment with the mortgage broker to refinance this way she can buy me out.....I can�t now because of money.

Ask her "Any way you can speed this up?" or "How can I help speed up the refi?" Enthusiastically support the refi.

Taking the kids to the lake with a jet ski...Can't beat that. I almost purchased a boat, but decided to get out of the rental into a bigger house. Now sure if that was wise or not. Missed the chance for water sports with kids at teeens.

Wolf,

Change the way you think about attracting wife back. Look here for Counter-intuitive ways to attract:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2061094#Post2061094

There may be other things in that post that you may be interested in.

Originally Posted by Wolfman

IH that was a little to religious for me. I�m sorry I just don�t follow all of that.

Old me would have said the exact same thing.

Read his post again. Take out the "religion". Translate into good choices/ bad choices and natural consequences. Or temptation. Whatever. It is a good skill to have to be able to interpret what someone else is saying.

Originally Posted by Wolfman

IH that was a little to religious for me. I�m sorry I just don�t follow all of that. I am catholic but didn�t follow what you were putting down. I have prayed for 11 months for this to be fixed and I�m still In The same position.

I am Catholic too. Non practicing at moment but still attending Catholic Church on occaision. Actually Wolf this has little to do with religion, and everything to do with waywardness, spirit of independence, lack of obedience, and sin. What I am trying to say is, here on earth and in DB we focus on the natural. Natural consequences natural choice, natural ways, worldly ways, and focus on it. Yes it is Secular, yes we understand and utilize human wisdom all through out the ages. Yes it serves a purpose for recognition, good and bad. They are actually along the same parallel of natural consequences and spiritual consequences. But then we sit here and wonder? Why do we suffer? Why does our closest
person in the world betray us? Why is our lives not secured and what and whom is it secured in? The world? Nature? Fleeting contentment? Why are our spouses striving torwards Waywardness, Independence and rebellion? . Why won't they see or their pride, their stubbornness, their waywardness, and their rebellion. Or some of our own for that matter. Then we sit here and we wonder "Why everything and everyone is broken." Including ourselves. God is not going to fix this for us, and if he is, its only going to be in his own time, in his own way, that glorifies him and not ourselves, but him through us. We struggle with our nature. With others nature. We want to change but fall short from our own understanding, and our own efforts. I guess ultimately what I am trying to say is. Its going to take a lot of repentance, and a lot of following his ways instead of man's for ourselves or our spouses to ever have enough remorse to change and reconcile, the way he has reconciled us to him through obedience and Jesus Christ, all due to legalism, pride, lust, arrogance, attachment, independence, and rebellion. This has just been recently revealed to me and where my thoughts are. Just sharing them to see if anyone else is open to it, and if it helps?

IH a lot of that makes more sense to me. Why is she so stubborn? Why is she rebelling against the marriage? I wish god could step in and fix this. Unfortunately she has made up her mind and there is nothing I can do to change it. It has been almost a year of us being separated, and she has only moved more towards divorce. I still hurts so bad to see it head down this road. The thing for me is when we talk everything is fine. No fights or arguments anymore. In my mind it�s like see we can make this work. I know in her mind it must be something else. On Sunday we go away for a week, my son has a hip hop competition down in Virginia Beach.

She emailed the lawyers today what was going on with the paperwork. I wish I was as lucky as Steve where she changed her mind. I feel like to time and space gave her that. To help her feel that this is the right thing for her to do. Hopefully one day I will be over this pain and help others out. I want nothing more to give my w a hug and say we can do this. She is not there and never will be. She has changed so much, all she cares about is going out and partying. Form a woman who was all about family and having to do everything together to her loving being away from me and the kids. A year later and I still cry!! A year later and I still hurt like the first day we separated. Sorry for the ramble, I�m just in a lot of pain.
I wish my w was like Sandi and came back or Steve�s wife!!!

W,

Look man I know your hurting I am really sorry. I think once you get into your new home things will start to look for you.

What really concerns me is you�re not going to learn anything from this and it will happen to you again. Steve didn�t get lucky he DB like a champion. You left your home against DB advice and then have the nerve to say time and space caused her to push for D.

Again we�ve told you are thinking logically. We get along we don�t fight we should stay to together. She�s thinking emotionally. I don�t have feelings for him they will never come back and I�m just not happy.

Wolf as I have said before she has to choose to be with you and for that to happen she has to respect you. Respect is earned not given. What have you done in the last year to earn her respect?

Just sending you a big hug man. Keep strong there, keep DB!

(((Wolf)))

How is the new shampoo?

What are you doing this holiday?

Consider this:

Wake up early and go for walk and watch the sun rise. Listen to the birds. Go to a diner for breakfast. Enjoy interacting with the hostess and waitress and busboy...make them laugh. Be in the moment all day.

LH I understand that was a mistake leaving my home. For me it helped with my sanity. I guess I had to choose between DB and my own sanity. Leaving the home was not right for DB but it was right for my mental health. I guess I had to make a choice at that moment. I choose my mental health. It also helped me to detach. Being in the home with her all the time was just too hard for me to handle. Sorry, maybe I am not as mentally strong as some on here, but that is just how I am. You know what LH, maybe, just maybe this will be better for me long term. Just like she only focused on the negative I only focused on the positive. And I have been doing a lot of thinking and soul searching and there were many things I was not happy with in my marriage. Since I have started to let go of the past I feel more free and ready for my future. I will say I am not 100% ready I still have my moments of depression. If they are getting less and less. My GAL has helped me with that. LH I will say I have learned a lot from this, even though you think I haven�t I have!!

Better thank you for the hugs, I needed that!!

R2C I am trying harder to get up early to go to the gym. I went to DD the other day and had a coffee by myself which I wouldn�t have done a few months ago. I played baseball last night and picked 6 innings. Took my kids to a colleagues house for the day and had a great time!!! So I am certainly trying little by little. I am trying to live in the moment. It�s hard but I am getting there.

Great job, Wolf. I suck at this DBing too, but I am persevering. I will get better. I will DETACH. I will GAL. I will become AMOAFWL. In fact, except for my weight, I think I am already AMOAFWL. I keep exercising, and I need to keep losing weight. That is one of my primary goals. I want my W to know that I will be able to pick up a hottie if she ever leaves me. LOL

It is a rough day. I guess because I am not with the kids. Or last year we were all at a 4th party together having a grand old time together. My past memories are what keep haunting me. Thinking what was she feeling last year at this time? Because it didn�t look like she was unhappy, disgusted or even thinking of divorce. I remember watching the fireworks with my arm around her. This roller coaster of emotions [censored]!!!

I went to the house this morning to bring them bagels, this way I could spend some time with the kids. W was in such a pissy mood. My d didn�t want to go to the beach. She was feeling down. So my w was annoyed with her. But because my w is in super selfish mode she really didn�t ask my d what was the matter. I knew what was wrong right away. After my wnattacked about what was wrong. I said to my w, �you really don�t know what�s bothering her?� She said I have no idea. I said it was the last time my d played with our friends daughter before she drowned (she didn�t die, but is basically a vegetable). As soon as I said that the tears started to roll down my d�s face. And my w being so insensitive says to my d, you have to move on and get over it. W says look that was a tragedy and they are still going out today so you need to move on. I told my d it�s ok to be sad, it�s ok to cry. I told her to let those emotions out and you will feel better. Again this just proves where my w�s head is at!!! No empathy for my daughter, no feelings of what was a year ago, all my wife cared about was that she was going to be late meeting up with friends, not that my daughter was having a rough time. Or that my kids hate the beach and was taking them anyway because a friend asked her to go. If it was the other way around and I was taking the kids to the beach, she would have made a comment like why are you taking them there, they don�t like the beach.

I wonder if my w will ever look back years from now and realize just how selfish she is acting and how cold she was to everyone? Who has this woman become???

OMG Wolf! I cannot believe your W cannot empathize or recall an event like that. That sounds so sociopathic, and sad for everyone involved, you, your daughter, W, and D friend. How can you not at least empathise with that first, and then subtly segway into moving on. Talk about invalidating your D feelings!!!

As far as the selfishness goes. For 10 months ive been trying to figure this out. Logically, hormonally, psychologicaly, and spiritually. The only thing I can come up with from my own sich, is some people who felt like they were the care takers for years from child hood into adult hood. They caught a glimpse of someone close to them dying, or getting sick, and said to themselves, I'm going to put me first above all else, no matter what the cost, and I am going to do whatever feels good or right that justifies my actions. Hence the MLC. Their attitude is Life is short, everybody gets there's, I've given too much of myself away. Nobody appreciated it, it was all on me, why shouldn't I get mine. And they seek out all their wordly pleasures. Affairs, pampering, new clothes, new friends, new hobbies, careers, lifestyles, etc, then they look at all the bad, remember little of the good, and go on a train wreck crash course. (Or so we think. They think they are just putting themselves first, and "standing up for themselves. " for once) some of it's relating to coping skills.

Childhood trauma. Dynamics family Dynamics previous parenting on how they were raised. It all gets blamed on my father was an alcoholic or he was emotionally unavailable or my mother was borderline or all this other crap. You can seek out all the answers you want in Psychology and biology and make yourself crazy like I did for 10 months. Don't get me wrong it's all useful information for knowing what some of the real issues are. All the stuff posted here by John Gottman and Robert Glover, all the books on these crisis's they are all helpful. But truthfully trying to ingest all this information for me even though I get it. To me its human wisdom. It serves purpose but it is not simple. I think it's a spirit of rebellion. The simple way for me to deal with this is that the spirit of rebellion and Satan's using his lies and deceit and deception to divide families and Gods order and biblical wisdom since the beginning. If I have to go crazy following handbook Manual of how to be an alpha and do XYZ and act like ABC, and all kind of Behavioral BS, although useful it's just too complex for anyone to fully take in. it's more suffering but it's simpler for me to just put my faith and trust in the Lord, and give it up to him before I have a mental breakdown.

Everytime I come back here to this form wanting to help and empathize with everyone here, I keep having to remind myself that I'm turning to man's Wisdom and not God's. That's why I'm stuck between the spiritual and the natural because in this world what we know is what we can see and everything is natural but it's also full of sin. I know this but that doesn't mean that I live it. But to also ignore it would be foolish. I guess that's where faith and trust comes in. If God and Jesus are going to make me a fool, then I guess it's going to be for my own greater good, whatever that may be in glory to him. I dunno? I have to keep reminding myself that my anger is coming from Satan too, and I have to process it, and let it go, then reject it. Jesus Christ was rejected by the Pharisees, The San Hedrin, and his own people and not everybody would hear or listen to him either and he was perfect.

Ill pray for you Wolfie. And everyone else on here as well. I don't know what good it's going to do but while I got to lose?

I hope you guys are having a good 4th with your kids.

Wolf,

Can I play devils advocate here and say you�re being a hypocrite and are being selfish. If she stayed married to you then she would only be doing because that is what you want.

Would that make you happy? If she said you know what wolf your right I�m being selfish. I will sacrifice my happiness in the one life I have to make you happy. Even though I have zero feelings for you that a w should have for her husband and probably never will let�s stay together.

Why are you so afraid to let her go and find her happiness? She doesn�t even sound like a very nice person. There is a high probability you will find someone even better.

You will get through this it just takes some time.

Originally Posted by LH19

Wolf,

Can I play devils advocate here and say you�re being a hypocrite and are being selfish. If she stayed married to you then she would only be doing because that is what you want.

Would that make you happy? If she said you know what wolf your right I�m being selfish. I will sacrifice my happiness in the one life I have to make you happy. Even though I have zero feelings for you that a w should have for her husband and probably never will let�s stay together.

Why are you so afraid to let her go and find her happiness? She doesn�t even sound like a very nice person. There is a high probability you will find someone even better.

You will get through this it just takes some time.

From the understanding and empathetic side. LH19 those thoughts crossed my mind too. It is selfish of us to want to keep them like some caged canary. I get it. But? I guess vows are just "feelings" of the moment and subjective in these days. Like the wind. Im sorry my feelings led me married to the wrong person which I thought was the right person at the time, just like the W. And Im sorry her feelings were only temporary based on what could be provided to my W in terms of satisfaction and happiness, since all that changes over time too. I hope and pray my S1 grows up great in the years to cone as well as everyone else's kids on here going through this with their future blended families, OM/OW. After all we can all still be friends right? You know? For the children... After all of our efforts, investment, time, work, and years of our life.

I'm sorry but there is no honor. Forgiveness maybe. But there is no honor in anyone that doesn't keep their commitments. Myself included. Vows are just empty words that felt good when we were saying them. All of us probably just need to do what we need to do, and just pull the trigger on D and just let them go. Marriage needs to serious seriously be reconsidered in this day and age. I would seriously advocate against it now in western culture until it collapses, or things change.

Here's my thoughts on feelings. Im sure most will say I'm twisting scripture to suit my narrative which I probably am. Proverbs 26:28 He who trusts in his own heart is a fool, But he who walks wisely will be delivered.

I may have come off as self righteous lately. But its only because what I have been focusing on. Anyway. Something from everyone here to think about.

LH I don�t think I am being selfish when I am thinking of the entire family. I want to stay together as a family. It just for me. Maybe it seemed that way but I am looking at it from a family perspective. The other thing is I want her to come back because she loves me. Not because I asked her to. I want her to be happy. And I know for a long time she was very happy. Obviously recently she wasn�t. I didn�t know this but considering the path we are heading down. She probably has felt like this for a while. Honestly I don�t know why I am afraid to let go. Maybe it�s because we have been together for 19 years, or the house I did so much work on to make it our own, or all the things I got for her because I loved and and was showing her affection that way. Overall, love is blind and I am starting to see that more and more that she was not a nice person. I believe I will find someone better, she was becoming a nightmare towards the end of our marriage.

IH we share a lot of the same emotions. I guess I took my vows seriously and was willing to work through anything. Unfortunately her spoiled upbringing has a lot to do with the demise of our m. She never matured or grew up and because of that, when adult responsibility kicked in she was not prepared to handle that. So the more she thought her life was horrible. To her reverting back to thinking she was 21.

Why don�t you keep the house?

Who is to say she won�t come back someday because she realizes she loves you?

Hi Wolf,

I am drawn to this site because I was doing research with regards to the situation that I am facing and certain keywords that is happening in my marriage matched yours and the search engine guided me to this thread. When I started reading through your story, man, I felt that your wife is the doppelganger of mine just that we are each at the opposite side of the globe.

The bomb had been dropped on me for over a year. EA in the beginning, then walking out on the family, the children, partying, dressing up young, behaving like a teenager, totally becoming someone opposite than whom she was. Even food she once loved she is now disgusted with it and acted like she had never ate something like that before. I can tell you that I see 99% similarities between my wife and your and bet they would be like twins if they meet up with each other now. And yep, my wife had enabling parents too. She used to be the ever loving mom but now she would even go partying till wee hours in the morning with both of our kiddos are having a 104 fever.

I never bought Michele books. But I got through other books like those from Husband Help Haven and Larry Bilotta about midlife crisis as well. I had my ups and downs the entire year and trust me that I have lived through how you had felt all this while as I love my wife and my kids alot too and yep, I am also everything for the family kind of guy. I had been living on drinks to drinks almost daily though I seldom binge but its also because I like to have a couple cans of beer to help me relax.

I do not wish to hijack your thread with my story but I felt compelled to post something which I do not know if the vets would agree with me as I am no DB expert...... But this is what I thought about your situation now...

The reason which I feel you may think you failed on DB is that, You are still very much focused on your wife. You are very bothered about what she does, how she react, what she said, done to the kids even to how she is moving and handling the divorce plan she initiated. That is why you always got a reaction towards all that is going on and keep beating yourself up over and over again, which I think is something which the vets are trying to share with you.

In my humble opinion, I feel that to be successful with DB is, to ignore the actions, behavior and what your wife does. Focus only on yourself, and your kids. To the extend that you do not need to be bothered by what she said to the kids. Just step up on your role towards your kids which your wife is falling short on. As long as she is not harming them physically or abusing them, it's fine. Don't judge them base on our logic because there is no logic now.

In fact, I would suggest you use the logic on yourself now. Because you have to recognize that whatever you do now, will have no impact or influence on herself unless she comes to herself. You are to present yourself as a choice, and the person that decide to have this choice or not is her. And if she does not select this choice, it's her life. You can't force it upon her.

Sure, you had great memories and history with her. As harsh as it may be, those are the past. Likewise if you are thinking why she is unable to let go of the past issues she had for you and believe that you both can work it out, vice versa she may be thinking why you just can let her go and keep harping on those past memories which may be beautiful to you but painful to her?

Yes you would say that she was happy then and why she claim otherwise now. That was what I said and thought too to my wife. But the fact is, it doesn't matter anymore. For now. Because what is beautiful to you is horrible to her now. That is why we will always wonder why they behave and react that way while they will always go against us because we are on different frequencies.

I am sharing this not because I felt that I am anymore wiser or what. I am not even saying I am DB-ing because I might not know the actual techniques. I would say what I am doing now is living my life and being the best dad I can for my kids. Because they only have me now if anything goes south. At the same time, I do not surrender my future to my wife. I came to terms that the marriage is over and the past is the past. If she does come back, we will have to work everything all over from scratch. For now, I just focus on myself. How to be happy for myself, do the right things, be there for the kids and in the event that divorce happens, how to live a fruitful and productive life.

There are more to my stuffs that I would like to share about the most ridiculous stuffs my wife did but, I rather not to and let go. When she comes back (She had actually moved out and came back only on certain days), I still cook for her and the family but when she leaves, I just said bye to her cheerfully. I no longer wish to be burden by the hurt she had caused nor the loving memories that I hurt myself with. If there would be a future, then be it and I believe it would be even greater than the past. If there would be no future with her, then I will embrace what life has in stall for me and live the best out of it, with my kids.

For now, the only thing that I would like to share with you is, focus on yourself. Do not dwell on or be affected by her antics. Then you will be a step ahead from where you are now in DB. At least that is how I felt I learn overtime to live better. But I can assure you that does not mean I give up on my wife. I still loves her. But I have to live to the best that I can in the moment for those who loves me and I love.

Cheers. It's the weekend. Go do something that you enjoy and hit the town. Get into crowds and have some company. Have fun. For I know I have plans lining up with the kids or just myself during this weekend if my wife is bringing the kids with her.

M:38 W:38
T:14 M: 12
S:9 S:6
Piercing: 04/18
BD: 07/18
W Moved out: 5/19

TS just gave you great advice and his a newbie.

That is great advice

Well I never read a first post like ToSmile's. He is giving you great advise.

Tosmile that was an amazing post. No joke I read it about 5 times. You are so right in every way. I am trying hard to only focus on myself. Trust me I have come a long way but still have work to do. I have been really trying to focus on myself and the kids more and more. When I am with my kids we have fun and I do t let them see that anything this bothering me. When I am around my w I am happy and fun. I just have my moments when I am not with my family it hurts. I am learning to accept it more and more. Like right now we are in away, my son competes in hip hop. So we are away for the week for his dance competition. We drove down in separate cars and have different rooms. At first I was upset about this (really upset about being able to save money) but now that I am here I actually enjoy my alone time. If this would have been a few months ago I would have been a mess. I guess some people progress or �accept� there situations faster than others. I am moving at a snails pace. Tosmile, stay with me because you said our situations are almost alike. I would love to know more about your situation.
Something else you pointed out was the memories. It�s so funny how my w and I perspective is so different. I look at all the positive memories and she is stuck on the negative. You are right about me not being able to change her, I am not trying to. But I am becoming the best me possible.

Question for everyone. While we are away for the week how do I handle down time? I want to be with my kids but I don�t want her to think I want to be with her. 2 if I keep too much distance then I feel like she will day I don�t want to be with my kids. With her she always twists things and finds the negative. Thanks!!

Originally Posted by Wolfman

Question for everyone. While we are away for the week how do I handle down time? I want to be with my kids but I don�t want her to think I want to be with her. 2 if I keep too much distance then I feel like she will day I don�t want to be with my kids. With her she always twists things and finds the negative. Thanks!!

H:"I am going to go get ice cream. Anyone want to join me?"
Kids:"YES!!!"
H:"I am leaving in 5 minutes"

Wife can decided to join you or stay back. Either way you are fine with her decision. Same with kids. be fine if they say yes or no.

Ice cream, the pool, the mall, the park, the beach, the movies, mini golf, whatever

Originally Posted by Wolfman

It is a rough day. I guess because I am not with the kids. Or last year we were all at a 4th party together having a grand old time together. My past memories are what keep haunting me. Thinking what was she feeling last year at this time? Because it didn�t look like she was unhappy, disgusted or even thinking of divorce. I remember watching the fireworks with my arm around her. This roller coaster of emotions [censored]!!!

I went to the house this morning to bring them bagels, this way I could spend some time with the kids. W was in such a pissy mood. My d didn�t want to go to the beach. She was feeling down. So my w was annoyed with her. But because my w is in super selfish mode she really didn�t ask my d what was the matter. I knew what was wrong right away. After my wnattacked about what was wrong. I said to my w, �you really don�t know what�s bothering her?� She said I have no idea. I said it was the last time my d played with our friends daughter before she drowned (she didn�t die, but is basically a vegetable). As soon as I said that the tears started to roll down my d�s face. And my w being so insensitive says to my d, you have to move on and get over it. W says look that was a tragedy and they are still going out today so you need to move on. I told my d it�s ok to be sad, it�s ok to cry. I told her to let those emotions out and you will feel better. Again this just proves where my w�s head is at!!! No empathy for my daughter, no feelings of what was a year ago, all my wife cared about was that she was going to be late meeting up with friends, not that my daughter was having a rough time. Or that my kids hate the beach and was taking them anyway because a friend asked her to go. If it was the other way around and I was taking the kids to the beach, she would have made a comment like why are you taking them there, they don�t like the beach.

I wonder if my w will ever look back years from now and realize just how selfish she is acting and how cold she was to everyone? Who has this woman become???

This post really stood out to me. Your daughter doesn't want to go to the beach, but she also does not get to make that decision. Your W is advising your daughter that she's going anyways. Kids test parents just to test them. Maybe your W is in pain and is not the best parent at the moment. Maybe you aren't either. As far as what your daughter is upset about you say that you knew right away, but do you? Could it be something else? Could your girl be playing the role to get what she wanted? You showed up at the house you left with an instant diagnosis and solution. I don't see anything wrong with your W wanting to get going to the beach either.

Your W is right, to an extent. So are you, too. But your post paints her so negatively, as if she's hurting you and your family so badly and she just needs to change to stop. You're the victim, she is the victimizer. MWD discusses this in her book, comparing it self defense situations, saying "play the victim and you will be the victim". It doesn't help that society is infatuated with victims currently, but a victim cannot logically expect the victimizer to just stop in the name of righteousness, right? If the oppressor was so righteous, you wouldn't be here. So what can YOU do to stop it?

And you left the house and kids, why are you stopping in with bagels?

Originally Posted by Ready2Change

Originally Posted by Wolfman

Question for everyone. While we are away for the week how do I handle down time? I want to be with my kids but I don�t want her to think I want to be with her. 2 if I keep too much distance then I feel like she will day I don�t want to be with my kids. With her she always twists things and finds the negative. Thanks!!

H:"I am going to go get ice cream. Anyone want to join me?"
Kids:"YES!!!"
H:"I am leaving in 5 minutes"

Wife can decided to join you or stay back. Either way you are fine with her decision. Same with kids. be fine if they say yes or no.

Ice cream, the pool, the mall, the park, the beach, the movies, mini golf, whatever

I second R2C for this. do not include her to be a part of your plan. No expectation, no let down. For me, I told my wife that I am intending to bring my kids for a overseas holiday. If she likes to, she can join us. if not, we will still go ahead. Don't feel bad for the kids thinking that you'll are unable to go as a family. Step up in your role. Make the session with your kids so enjoyable for them that they think that hanging out with you alone is so much fun (But not at the deliberations of doing it to let your kids choose spending time with you over the mother).

I understand where you are coming from. We all have that glimmering sense of hope in us that things is starting to improve and lure us into situations which we would slap ourselves across our own faces later. Yes it takes different duration for different people to get over it but I believe what everyone is trying to share here are the most effective or tested methods to get you out of this stitch, and get back being better together with your wife or by yourself. Thus as someone had mentioned before but I like to reiterate is, DB gives you 2 outcomes. Reconcile or Divorce. But either way, DB helps you to come out better of either situation. DB is for you, not anyone else.

I am going to ask you a question Wolf. Take time and answer this question to yourself. Find a quiet place or have a drink and think about it.

Who are you Wolf? Who were you before your wife came into your life? Before you had your family? What did you enjoy doing? What were your hobbies that you had given up these years? What was it that you liked to do and had shelved away for your family?

From your reply, I felt that your "DB" is more on exterior and aesthetic. Something that you are doing to show your wife and that you are GAL and etc. I mean yes that is part of DB I supposed but, whats more important is, feeling happy from within. Happy that you are doing these things for yourself, not with an underlying intent at the back of your mind of subconsciously thinking that this will lead your wife back to you. Why not switching your thoughts to that you are DB-ing to become a great Dad to your kids and a much attractive person for your potential future partner?

Look. The problem with us guys is, when we got married, we know about the commitment, responsibilities and etc and we give up living for ourselves. Subconsciously and unknowingly. We always prioritize family over ourselves. So much so that we are just living for the family. Everything family first and blah blah blah. Pumping all resources we have into the family, taking an extra job to give the family a much more comfortable life providing a lifestyle they want, handling all the household chores and other stuffs yet what could have gone wrong?

Everything has gone wrong I feel. We have stop living for ourselves. Are you still the Wolfman you were before you met your wife and started your family? Overtime, your actions towards your family or some other things you might have done under your previous role had also contributed to this current marriage issue. Perhaps you were being too protective? Perhaps you had been taking care of all things that prevented your wife from growing up? Perhaps something triggered her childhood issues? Or it's a myrid of factors? I don't know. It could be anyone of the above or all.

You were you before you had this family. You had happy times too before you met your wife. But I guess the problem now is, you are making your wife and family your life which is not very healthy. You have to find back who you are. I mean look, putting yourself in your wife's shoes now. If you are her and looking at you now, and able to read your mind, do you think you will find yourself attractive?

I hope you don't mind me saying this but I feel that if she happens to chance upon this thread and your input in this forum, I don't think that she will be touched about how you are feeling all these for her and what you are doing for her. I think she will feel scared and put off, very much in fact. The reason which she is still behaving this way if she has not come out is also because, she is still not at ease with you and in fact, she may be feeling threatened, and also thinking you do have ulterior motives even though, you might not have been doing anything to her. And this ties back to the fact that her perception for now is that marriage is all bad, and you have to accept and respect that. Like how you felt your marriage was all wonderful. Unless she sees it that way as well, she would not agree with anything you do that justify your cause.

Thus fore, the actions the vets are telling you to do here is, how to take this feeling off away from her through tried and proven methods. And I can tell you in short is, leave her alone. And validating in the right way also helps to take the edge off her. This is really the first step towards anything. Likewise for example, a woman is madly in love with you now. But you hates her. Everything she does just turns you off. What's the first thing to happen to let her even have a chance with you? That is, to stop turning you off and taking the anger or hatred away from you first. Before you even see her in a neutral light for any future potentials.

Yes, we have a long history with our spouses. We may like to think that we have happy times together. But I can tell you this history is working against us now. Because what's in their mind are not the happy times for now, but all those unpleasant moments which you are also surprised that they remembered all those arguments so well.

I would love to share about what I went through too wolf, but repeating those tires me. And negativity breeds negativity. I can go on picking out every of the nonsense she did but if I do that, I am not being kind to myself. It will pull me back from my progress. I would rather share the positivism and some methods that may help you to feel better. Sure there are also moment and days which I felt low as well but I keep looking forward to anything positive and keep me going. It can be a catch up with my pals, a playground trip with the kids, or a jog or simply time for myself after work simply reading or get onto some games. These were things which I gave up for family back then as well. In a nut shell, I keep finding things to keep myself occupied, keeps myself busy and happy. If I run out of ideas, I try new things.

Just to share, I actually do not think that this episode happening in my marriage is a bad thing. Because it highlighted the problems in the relationship with my wife and also surfaced the personal issues that she buried in herself. If she managed to get through all these, great she will be a better person. And for me myself, I reflected deeply on whom I was. What I wanted in life instead of thinking I am fulfilling my role as a wonderful husband by fulfilling anniversaries celebrations and gifts, making enough for the family to get by, non-negotiable if anything involves my family that I thought might be detrimental... etc.

I was not perfect too despite of me then thinking that I had fulfilled the role of a husband to the best that I could. If I could have turned back time, I would have done a lot of things very differently but if I keep thinking like this, I will be stuck in this state of being emotional and allow my emotion to dictate my every move which, I can tell you is not very attractive. This is what our spouses are doing now. Fuel by emotion and living according to it.

Thus, I apply the logic on myself. Using this period to revisit what I missed out on, improve myself and becoming a better person for myself. For any positive outcome to happen be it if we reconcile with our spouses or move on by ourselves, we need to step out from here. Whats the worse that could happen? Divorce? We would not lose a limp or what if we are divorced. We will still be the Dad of the kids after we are divorced. What's worst that can happen is already on the table. Is either we accept or still deny it. Thus what we can do is, using our logic, to make the best of what future we can build for ourselves.

I would say that you had lost yourself in your marriage. Likewise me too. Thus, I am also finding myself back too. It takes time but slowly and surely, we inch forward. Find your life back and don't live for your family. It is certainly not healthy and I would say like a form of obsession. Even in the better times, I don't think your family would want you to live for them solely. They want you to be happy. Likewise I do not think you would want your wife to be living for you but to be happy with her life because you are in her life.

Cheers.

^^^^ To Smile. Im going to re-read this post every day for encouragement. This is pure GOLD, and healthy objective balanced rational approach

Ovr my kids really do hate the beach. As a matter of fact my w told me the next day what a hard time my d have her. I understand kids can�t have their way all the time. But when both kids are adamant about not going and you take them anyway that�s when I think you shouldn�t take them. It�s not my problem but evidently they did not have a good time because my kids don�t like it. My w even told me that my d said to her that she was only going to be with her friend. I bring up that point because if it was the other way around my w would have made it a point to say why am I bringing them their when they don�t like that. Ovr on here I just vent and talk about my feelings so I may look like the victim. But when I am with my kids and around my w I am happy and fun. I don�t want to show her a sad or unhappy person.

Tosmile another great post. There are a lot of things I would like to address from your post. Before my w I was a very independent strong person who loved to play sports. When we first got married I continued to play in a men�s baseball and flag football league. Once we had kids I slowly phased it out. Why? She complained that I cared more about my sports than the family and that was not true. So, eventually I stopped playing. We would argue at times that I had to leave to play sports. If you are thinking compromise, accordingly to my w there was always something going on. I could see how angry she was getting about me playing.

Since we separated I have got back into playing sports again. I try to play as much as possible.

You also talked about it not being healthy making my family my life. If you meant in the past I disagree with that. I love my family and they will always be number one. If you meant now then yes I need to detach more. It looks like one of the mistakes I made was trying to do everything for my w. The more I did the more she asked of me and even said it was too much for her to keep up with her stuff. I don�t know what she was implying, the only things she did was laundry and cook on occasion. I did everything else. I think that stunted her growth into adulthood. Where now she is rebelling like a teenager. Again, I always tried to be the best husband and father possible. Some how it wasn�t enough and that scares me. It scares me because that could happen in the next relationship. Where I think I am being a great spouse or companion and the next one leaves.

You also talk about what is the worse that can happen? Divorce? To me that is pretty bad. This whole thing has really got me down. I have never felt so depressed the last year. That I am on 2 meds I go to IC. And yet still struggle. Some people can bounce back I think for me it will be a long time before I fully recover from this.

Also received an email from the lawyer about the divorce decree. I am one step closer to this being done. I am still in shock that this is happening. I am very sad that I will not be in my home anymore. That I will not be with my kids all the time. I am away for my kids dance competition. There is literally only a handful of fathers here. I have also been so dedicated to my family, why doesn�t she see that. How many fathers did not come, about 90%. And yet I am the one going through this. I�m sorry just having a rough morning. I woke up from the most amazing dream that we were a family again!! So when I woke up I was so sad it was just a dream!!

Tosmile for someone who is new to here I don�t know how you do it? I just feel like crying this morning. Thank god my son doesn�t perform till later.

W,

I am sorry you�re having a bad day.

I am going to challenge you on your last to posts. Maybe the other fathers are away on business. Maybe they are running marathons or climbing Mt. Everest.

I worry that this will happen to you again because I feel you haven�t learned anything from this experience. A woman is not attracted to a man she can have her way with. One who spends 100% of his time trying to please her and the kids. She wants someone who is his own man and spends time playing sports, running marathons, golfing, hunting hanging with his buddies and being a man. Not all his time let me be clear on that.

W I think I explained this to you before that this $hit is hard wired in humans for thousands of years that a woman wants a man she can feel safe and comfortable with and one she knows can protect her. When you don�t stand up to her she thinks, well if he can�t stand up to me how is he going to protect me.

Stbx : I think you�re playing too much softball and not spending enough time with the kids and I.
W: Baby I understand you feel that way but it really helps me relieve stress which will allow me to spend better quality time with you and the kids.
Stbx: it�s too much! Blah blah blah
W: I�m really sorry you feel that way. Let�s discuss it over a glass of wine later.

If you�re being reasonable a reasonable woman will want to make you happy.

Wolf,

To me, you are making very unhealthy statements, like, "You also talked about it not being healthy making my family my life. If you meant in the past I disagree with that. I love my family and they will always be number one." and "Again, I always tried to be the best husband and father possible".

The first statement shows unhealthy attachment issues. You have to have your own identity in your M. You have to be able to be your own self, go and play your sports with your W supporting you. You have to have a healthy balance. Your family can be your number 1 priority and you still have time for yourself.

IMO, like you stated you did whatever it takes to make her happy, inside of that you lost yourself. In your next relationship, with whoever that is, you have to remember to not lose yourself. Have your identity in your relationship.

Also, IMO your issue is allowing people to deal with consequences, if the consequences makes people unhappy you have to fix what makes them unhappy for them. You are a fixer!!!! Stop fixing and start LOVING!

Joe

Onward and upward

Originally Posted by Wolfman

I am away for my kids dance competition. There is literally only a handful of fathers here. I have also been so dedicated to my family, why doesn�t she see that.

I'm sure she sees that you are a great father to the kids. Unfortunately that doesn't equate to her being attracted to you. It was the same for my XW, she raved about what a great dad I was even after S and D. Unlike a lot of WAS's, she never did lose respect for me. Anyone that asked she always told that she respected me very much, I even heard her say it when she didn't know I was listening. She respected me, she loved me, she thought I was a great parent, she enjoyed the sex. But she didn't want to be married. It is damned tough to wrap your head around that. Yet that was my situation, and it is yours. There is no figuring it out.

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Tosmile for someone who is new to here I don�t know how you do it? I just feel like crying this morning. Thank god my son doesn�t perform till later.

Then find a private place and cry. However long it takes you to grieve and recover is how long it takes. It may take me 9 months and someone else 2 months and you 2 years. There is no right or wrong, it takes what it takes. Let it happen.

Hi Wolf,

Yep I might be new here but I'm still going through it for more than a year. If you like to ask me how I do it, I guess I just sum it up in 1 word which is, Acceptance.

I accept whom my wife has become, and recognize her for who she is now. I accepted the grief I have to go through and I face the pain heads on. I too, do have those nights when I woke up at wee hours like 3 or 4 am and couldn't get to sleep till the next morning and continue with what the day has in for me. My job and extended family had not been kind as well and I have a key role at both areas.

It was so bad that doctors told me to take a break and prescribed me meds to remain functional. But I just appreciate the rest that was given to me away from work and put the meds aside because, I want to face this heads on. I do not wish to depend on any substance as they are just relieving the feelings temporary which is not what I am looking for. I thought by pushing through the pain, I will be used to it and if I want to emerge a stronger and better person for a much more wonderful future, I have to live through this.

And I look back and think about this period since BD. On those days that even though I felt crappy, it din't help my marriage. During better days, sure it might not have helped my marriage as well but I radiates much positivism. I am feels lighter and happier as well. I enjoy more with my children (mind you they can feel if you are genuinely happy or not) and performs much better.

For some people who gone through such turmoil in their marriage, physical separation is one of those point in time that is very painful for them. For me, when my wife mentioned that she is moving out, I felt a sense of relief. I am also glad about it and happy for her. Relief because I would not need to face potential outburst from her sudden emotional berserk and giving her the space and time that she would require to sort herself out. This time is also good for me so I can experience life without her. Previously she proposed that I move out of the house but I did not and stayed put because to me, she is the one who wanted the new. The new is out there and she can go for it. I am happy with my family and why should I move? Thus in the end she made the move which came as a surprise and is fine with me.

The more I work towards focusing on myself, the more the anger, disappointment and sadness leaves me. I think this is what they meant by dropping the rope. In fact, I might have already forgiven her for all she had done even though she had not came back with an apology yet "that some books mentioned she eventually will" but I guess that does not matter anymore. When families and friends rallied and took sides (even her family and friends) with me from her outrageous antics, I just told them it's ok, just let her be. By accepting, forgiving and dropping the rope, then you will be truly relieved and detach. In fact for the same crap that I reacted badly when she threw it at me previously, nowadays I just laugh through it. (I feel especially time and time again she will try to provoke to get a reaction at me in order to justify for her actions or cause. But I refuse to fall for it.)

I like this analogy I read somewhere. One day, a teacher walks into the class and asked one of the student out. He then passed a glass of water to the student and ask him to hold it straight with his hand. Then the teacher asked the student is the glass heavy? The student replied no. The teacher ask the student to remain holding it. 10 minutes later, the student started to feel abit of strain. 20 minutes later, his hand starts to tremble and the water spills out. A short while later, the student gave up.

Moral of the story is, the glass of water is like our emotions. the longer we held on to it, the more painful it will be. By letting go, then we will be released from the pain and be in a better state which we can think and perform better.

Thus nowadays when I wake up in the middle of the night, I just tell myself to empty my thoughts and get back to sleep. It will not help anything even if I stayed awake. When I start to feel the sadness creeping up to me, I distract myself by thinking about something happy. Because I do not want my mood or performance to be affected. I focus on working on myself to have a better me for others.

You have to love yourself first. This is not a selfish analogy. This is because if you do not love yourself, how do you love others? Put forth some examples: You have to love yourself by doing things you need to do to take care of your own health like exercising and such. Otherwise someday if you fall sick, you will become the burden of your family, like it or not. You have to tell yourself to be emotionally strong so that those who depends on you can genuinely believe that they can fall back on you when they need to. Putting up a strong front is not enough because from time to time, there will be some water that spills out of the glass and onto them. We all know how it is when we are dealing with someone that we know they are holding back their emotion. It's kind of like threading on ground laid with land mines.

On the whole, I think everyone here is focusing on you, instead of your wife. On how to help Wolf out of this, with or without his wife. In the Chinese idiom, there is this saying. "Those in the situation does not see it as clear as a third party" Thus they are singling out issues which you might not have seen that would have contributed to these. Because you are in the situation, while we are out of it. And you have to try to bring yourself out of your situation to view it more holistically.

As like in my previous post, I had also mentioned. Sure, I thought I had been doing everything right? But why it came to this? It may be easy to put it on my wife's MLC, Childhood issues, being spoilt and etc. But does that absolves me of my responsibility in this marriage? The answer is no. I accept that I have a role in this as well. It would be some actions I have done or how I have treated her that leads to the breakdown of the marriage. And my mission now I feel is to ensure I do not repeat those mistakes again if we get back together, or if I am with someone else.

For now, I am looking at 2 directions. If we get back together, what kind of marriage are we going to build and what kind of future I would like to have with her? But if we do not get back together, what is the future for me or with someone else? I reiterate that I am doing this not because that I have lost my love for her. But I accept reality as it is and what present situation and potential future may be. Past memories are to be appreciated and thankful of. Then we should leave them as it is. Even if I get back with my wife, I want a different marriage with her and doing things differently. Or would you rather go back to how things were?

When a walk away or MLC spouse is in this situation,the wake up call for them may not from us the left behind spouse. It may be from other incidents in life, or divorce when they finally free themselves of the feelings they have of you and drop the history to see you neutrally again, or after they met someone else and then realize how wonderful you had been. But for the later statements, we are not the one that can doing anything about it because the more we behave in ways they expect us to be in the situation, the more it proves to them they are right in their campaign. Thus though sometimes what some of us suggested you may think is counter-productive for your marriage, it may actually works. But one thing for sure is, even if it does not work for your marriage, it would be beneficial for you as an individual as it redeems your pride/confidence/respect from someone that thrashes on it.

My 2 cents

Originally Posted by AnotherStander

I'm sure she sees that you are a great father to the kids. Unfortunately that doesn't equate to her being attracted to you. It was the same for my XW, she raved about what a great dad I was even after S and D. Unlike a lot of WAS's, she never did lose respect for me. Anyone that asked she always told that she respected me very much, I even heard her say it when she didn't know I was listening. She respected me, she loved me, she thought I was a great parent, she enjoyed the sex. But she didn't want to be married. It is damned tough to wrap your head around that. Yet that was my situation, and it is yours. There is no figuring it out.

AS, do you mean she didn't want to be married to you or just married in general? Did she ever remarry? Did she get into other relationships?

I ask these questions because my wife has hinted that she just doesn't like the institution of marriage. I think she resents the expectations and responsibilities that come with it. I personally feel that once you have married and had three kids its too late to go back and incredibly selfish, but I think that is what she is struggling with.

Originally Posted by Destroyd

AS, do you mean she didn't want to be married to you or just married in general? Did she ever remarry? Did she get into other relationships?

Good question but I don't really know the answer. She definitely didn't want to be married to me anymore but I am not sure if she meant just in general she didn't want to be married, or if just to me. She did not remarry, she did have some kind of R with an OM (during BD, S and D) that she claimed was just a friend but I don't know how far that went. They may very well have just been friends, I suspect it was more but don't know. She was trying online dating for a while too. She was fairly open about it after we got divorced, I never asked but she would talk about it sometimes. She hasn't mentioned anything like that in years though, and when she travels she goes with a female friend of hers so as far as I know she's not seeing anyone or dating.

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I ask these questions because my wife has hinted that she just doesn't like the institution of marriage. I think she resents the expectations and responsibilities that come with it. I personally feel that once you have married and had three kids its too late to go back and incredibly selfish, but I think that is what she is struggling with.

After BD I read a lot about menopause because my XW was going through it at the time. Menopause doesn't affect all women the same, but apparently it's not uncommon for a woman going through it to feel like she's been a wife and mom forever and now she wants some "me" time. How old is your W? I see in your signature you've been together 27 years, that would definitely put her right in the middle of menopause age.

Tosmile. Thank you for that. I know the people on here are trying to help me. And see things differently from an outside perspective. I just struggle. I was one of those nice guys who got blind sided. And I just tried so hard to fix things. And I get stuck in thinking about the past, and all the vacations we went on and the good times. For me the loss is very overwhelming, I know that if I can let go of the past, that my w is not the same person I will be better. But my mind is constantly bribing me back and thinking how could she be this upset to want d. I know she sees things differently than I do and in her mind she just wants out from this pain. She is a �runner�. She runs from problems, responsibility, relationships. Since the 19 years we have been together anytime there is a problem she wants to get away from the problem not fix it. We are away right now for my sons hip hop competition. Evidently the kids gave her a hard time in the morning all she kept saying was she needed to get away. So she ran to Starbucks for 45 minutes. Then out to dinner with some of the dance moms without our kids. Look I get it, we need a break from our kids once in a while, but that is always her answer. She has cut out so many friends from our life. She has cut out her own family for problems. She thinks that by eliminating the problem it will go away and her life will get better. Now she is doing that to me. She has never stopped to tho k that maybe the problem is her. She doesn�t get along with half her co-workers. I guess I shouldn�t be surprised, that eventually I would be on the �chopping block�. A lot of he dance moms she doesn�t get along with either. The list goes on and on.

Here is the other thing. As I talk about all my w negative qualities it makes me wonder why am I hurting so much? Why would I want to be married to a person like this? I deserve better than someone who can�t handle life. A woman who does not know how to forgive. I think if I focus on these things it will be easier for me to drop the rope.

Wolf,

How many woman are you currently interacting with?

(Yes this is a loaded question)

I am currently interacting with 2 women at the time.

Wolf,

To the first part of your reply, it is because you are still very attached to her.

And my reply to the second part of your post, will also address the first part.

Collecting from what you described about your wife, she is a person who is very self-entitled. This is made worst by enabling parents and also you, that had enabled her too during the marriage by being the husband you claimed to be. Entitled people feels like the world owes it to them, and for a lady, she would behave like a damsel in distress, most if not all the time. The way they handle most things will be projection and blaming others. It is always others, but never their fault. And they cannot come to accept its their fault because, it will overturn any beliefs they have and their value system.

Such personality always looks for someone to "Rescue" them. The knight in shinning armor that will come to get their assess out of messes and shelter them against any of their displeasure, and be at their disposal. At first, they would be nice and sweet and submissive to the knight because, they view them as their savior. And most guys by nature, likes to take up this role to protect the Damsel. Overtime, the knight will keep giving in more and more, as he feel its just natural for him to do so and the Damsel will just keep receiving and receiving, taking everything for granted and how it should be. Slowly and surely, the respect that the Damsel will have for the knight erodes and overtime, he slides to the level of a servant because mostly, he will just give in to please the damsel and fulfill the family man role, putting himself the last.

At this juncture, the servant whom supposed to be the dearest and closest person to the Damsel, also becomes the punch bag for the damsel. For the efforts he put in that used to draw much appreciation previously is now expected for by the Damsel while for anything that goes wrong, its his fault. The servant will keep giving and giving while the Damsel will just receiving until one day, be it any reason that the Damsel may not be satisfied with her life, she'll drop the bomb and it's all, the servant's fault that caused her for such a wreck life she has.

But the poor servant has been wondering what has he done wrong? He had been loyal, committed, putting in all he can for the Damsel and she was happy. But does it turns out this way? Well that is because the Servant did not make his stand. And the servant himself had been so used to be giving always he continues to give, thinking that is the way to turn things around but this only lapse into the vicious cycle of eroding the respect further than what he has remain.

So what do you think the servant should do now?

Originally Posted by Wolfman

I am currently interacting with 2 women at the time.

Are you practicing new skills with them?

Originally Posted by ToSmile

Wolf,

To the first part of your reply, it is because you are still very attached to her.

And my reply to the second part of your post, will also address the first part.

Collecting from what you described about your wife, she is a person who is very self-entitled. This is made worst by enabling parents and also you, that had enabled her too during the marriage by being the husband you claimed to be. Entitled people feels like the world owes it to them, and for a lady, she would behave like a damsel in distress, most if not all the time. The way they handle most things will be projection and blaming others. It is always others, but never their fault. And they cannot come to accept its their fault because, it will overturn any beliefs they have and their value system.

Such personality always looks for someone to "Rescue" them. The knight in shinning armor that will come to get their assess out of messes and shelter them against any of their displeasure, and be at their disposal. At first, they would be nice and sweet and submissive to the knight because, they view them as their savior. And most guys by nature, likes to take up this role to protect the Damsel. Overtime, the knight will keep giving in more and more, as he feel its just natural for him to do so and the Damsel will just keep receiving and receiving, taking everything for granted and how it should be. Slowly and surely, the respect that the Damsel will have for the knight erodes and overtime, he slides to the level of a servant because mostly, he will just give in to please the damsel and fulfill the family man role, putting himself the last.

At this juncture, the servant whom supposed to be the dearest and closest person to the Damsel, also becomes the punch bag for the damsel. For the efforts he put in that used to draw much appreciation previously is now expected for by the Damsel while for anything that goes wrong, its his fault. The servant will keep giving and giving while the Damsel will just receiving until one day, be it any reason that the Damsel may not be satisfied with her life, she'll drop the bomb and it's all, the servant's fault that caused her for such a wreck life she has.

But the poor servant has been wondering what has he done wrong? He had been loyal, committed, putting in all he can for the Damsel and she was happy. But does it turns out this way? Well that is because the Servant did not make his stand. And the servant himself had been so used to be giving always he continues to give, thinking that is the way to turn things around but this only lapse into the vicious cycle of eroding the respect further than what he has remain.

So what do you think the servant should do now?

Take back his life, his independence, be more assertive and direct, and never ever give anything or any part of himself away again for free. Unless he gives without covert contracts or condition. Always be assessing what you are giving and getting in return.

ToSmile what you wrote is my story I was that knight in shining armor to start and I needed up a servant that winds up getting kicked to the curb. Very sad how this happened. She acted like an entitled teenager the last year. As I did more I was told I was not doing enough. I deserve so much better. I became the servant, so sad I let that happen. You asked what do I need to do. I need to get my respect back. How I am not really sure.

R2C I�m not really sure what that means. The funny thing is I attract women all the time. I am tall and in shape have a great sense of humor and intelligent. Yet the one I want he most does not want me. So many of my female colleagues have told me my w is an idiot for doing this. Also, I won�t have a hard time finding other women. The funny about those 2 statements is they make me mad and happy at the same time. Mad because the one I want does not want me. Happy that other women think I am a catch. While I was away for my son�s hip hop competition a lot of the women said how great it is that I came considering what I am going through. So many complained that their husbands did not come yet I was there. So many see what a good person I am but my ex. Obviously I did things in the m that really bothered her enough to do this to our family. I�m sorry I am tired of repeating myself. I just need to learn acceptance, it will help me move on in my life. She is a lost cause and is �done�. D paperwork was done by the lawyer so I have to look it over and then I will be signing. It�s sad this August would have made 15 years of m. I will say being here has taught me so much. I am definitely a changed person. She is not. She is still the stubborn self centered person. I wish the �aliens� that a ducted my w would return her. But she is gone forever. There was one positive thing I heard from my w. A couple of moms were complaining how their h never go to these dance competitions. My w said, �oh no wolfman never misses anything for the kids.� I said thank you. She said well it�s true. It was nice to hear but I know it means nothing other than I am a good dad. Which is great don�t get me wrong. But that doesn�t mean she wants to get back with me.

Its really selfish of us to want to keep them when they want out. I know it pains us, but they are unhappy for whatever reason, and who are we to stand in the way of that? Whether its destruction, purpose, peace, or somewhere in between?
Or tell them what happiness is to us, isn't to them. Let it all go wolf. Have you ever watched Swingers? You have to come first Wolf, before them. Hey Wolf? Do you dance?

Wolf,

Everything you are saying is about her accepting you. But, be honest with yourself, do you accept her actions at the moment. You mentioned you don't know how you gain your respect, but you do, you are scared of how the encounters with your W will turn out. You know it will be a battle. Guess what, it always is. But it's not about the reaction of your W. When a person respect themselves, they don't care how people react when they make their decisions. For too long you have been making decisions based off of how your W will and won't react.

Now it's time to make the decisions that a best for you. That's how you gain respect.

I wrote this a while back

Can a person truly pay respect if they don't have any?

Respect cost, does a person with no respect for another truly love another. IMO, NO! Respect is not something that is just handed over freely, it's earned. It's action oriented. If a person is disrespected and the person who does the disrespecting is not confronted then respect is lost.

In order for a person to once again begin to love they must first begin to respect. In order for another person to respect another, that other person must respect themselves first. The longer the disrespect continues, the more the respect currency is lost.

But, in order to gain respect, it only takes one brave act, one act to show that disrespect won't be allowed. That act doesn't care what the reaction of the person doing the disrespecting is going to do. The only thing that matters is that the disrespecting stops. Once the disrespect is stopped, there are only two options, to respect or to distance ones self. But guess what, the distance option is a form of respect as well.

When faced with disrespect the right decision to be made, is first am I being used/disrespected. Why am I saying No or Yes. Am I saying "NO" to be mean or am I saying no because it's not conducive for me at the moment. Am I saying "Yes" because I think it will get my Spouse back or am I saying "Yes" because it's actually the right thing to do?

See, respect has nothing to do with being mean or nice. Has nothing to do with hurting another. It's all about a person, not crossing the clearly stated boundaries you have set. Repsect is one person acknowledging that they won't cross your LINE, because they understand you won't TOLERATE them if they do.

Most LBS allow line crossing/disrespect because we don't want our WW/WS to leave us, but the irony/rub is the more/longer they line cross the further away they go. If you want them to ever come back and STAY, STAY is the key word, Respect must be there. The more respect they have the less likely they are going to leave.

So the first steps in winning a Spouse back, is stopoing all the actions that show lack of respect and love for oneself (begging, crying, pursuing). Next start loving and respecting yourself. Next GAL, 180s, and detaching (not to escape, but too heal). Lastly allow no other to disrespect you and for all those that do, show them with action what doing so entails.

The purpose of DB or hope for a WW isn�t ruining their life, it�s leaving them alone and letting them see you grow and become stronger. It's Karma job to teach lessons, it's a LBS job to heal themselves.

Joejoe

Onward and upward

IH you are absolutely right I have to let go (drop the rope). I feel like a do for a couple of days then I backslide. I am really trying to focus on myself more. Eating right, working out, playing baseball, going out with friends and being the best dad possible. For me once I can let go of the past and not worry about the future I will be able to move forward. It�s just taking me a long time. What does everyone say here, patience. I am trying really hard.
IH I have never seen swingers. Sorry my friends busy my chops for that all the time. And I love to dance and pretty good. Why did you ask about dancing?

Joe Joe. That was some great info. You are absolutely right I am always thinking if I do something or say something how will it affect her. I can�t worry about what she thinks anymore. I have make decisions that are best for me regardless of how she is going to act. I have always tried to please my w. Now it�s my time to do what�s best for me and my children. I definitely lost respect for myself and how would I expect her to give me respect if I have none for myself. I will re-read that post many times, it is gold. I know people have been saying this for a long time for me, I just have been down on myself. That gets me nowhere. It�s funny I am only �weak� around my w. When I go out I meet women all the time, I have such a confidence when I am out. But when my w is around it�s like she is my �kryptonite�. I don�t know why I am so weak around her. I try not to show that but I feel it, which means she probably feels it.

LH you have been telling me this for a long time!! I�m sorry if I have frustrated you, I need to get better at being strong and confident around her. I need to be the same man when I am out when I am with her. Too many mistakes, I will not make these mistakes in my next relationship.

Originally Posted by Wolfman

R2C I�m not really sure what that means. The funny thing is I attract women all the time. I am tall and in shape have a great sense of humor and intelligent. Yet the one I want he most does not want me.

Originally Posted by Wolfman

It�s funny I am only �weak� around my w. When I go out I meet women all the time, I have such a confidence when I am out. But when my w is around it�s like she is my �kryptonite�. I don�t know why I am so weak around her. I try not to show that but I feel it, which means she probably feels it.

Obviously each of us have our own areas in the "personal growth" that can use improvement. Some guys here have a hard time even maintaining eye contact with their lady. Much easier to "practice" this skill with strangers until it feels more natural and they can use this new skill with their wife.

What do you do that is "weak" around wife that you wouldn't do around others?

When I am around my w I lose my sense of humor. I feel like I am being constantly watched and have to �behave�. I do t feel relaxed almost like walking on eggshells. I have been a lot better at validating though.

Having a rough morning. I take 2 steps forward then 2 steps backward. I am just sad that it has almost been a year since the separation and nothing has changed. I thought for sure that when we first separated it was only going to last like a month. Here I am a year later and heading down d lane. I think back to our whole r and think how much I did for her and gave her and it was never enough. She always wanted more and I would give it to her she would want more and I would give it to her again. I guess my struggle this morning is that I gave and ga e and gave to her and the family and to still end up here. There was no pleasing this woman. She looked for perfection in this m and since that doesn�t exist it was doomed from day one. Love is blind and boy was I blind. I think most women would have loved to have me as a husband. Hard working, loving, dedicated, truthful, great dad, and yet all of that didn�t add up for her. Yet she would find the few things I did wrong focus on that and make me out to be this horrible person.

Depression is bad today. Honestly I feel like I have nothing to look forward too. I wish there was good news people on here could give me. But her fog is thick and permanent. I have to laugh one of her friends is going through a bad d. It�s been going on for about 2 years. I heard my w talking on the phone the other day and giving her friend advice on dating. How do you put the pieces of your heart back when it�s broken into a million??

Something I want to share which I thought was so interesting. We had a family therapy session with my d therapist. There was one thing she said to my d that so applied to my w. The therapist said to my d there are 3 kinds of intelligence: 1 academic 2 logical 3 emotional. She said to my d that she is doing things in her life based on emotions not on logic. That if she really thought about certain situations logically she would make better decisions that make her decisions based on emotion. And she said a lot of people make made decisions when they are based solely on emotion because in that moment you may feel mad, sad, depressed. I wanted to say to my w do you see how you are handling our m?? You are making decisions based on emotion instead of logic. Because logically to break up a family over some minor things that happened a while ago it doesn�t make any logical sense. It as we all know they act based on emotion. It just saddens me that my w behavior is based on emotion not logic.

Someone please wake me up from this nightmare.

Hang in there Wolf. I know it is tough. I have been there, resigning myself to D even though it was the last thing I wanted.

There is always hope. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

There are better days ahead.

W,

Sorry you�re having a bad day.

As always I am going to challenge you. If we look at this logically I can�t understand why you feel you have nothing to look forward to in the future. Sounds like your W was a pretty horrible W. You gave and gave and got zero in return. I am pretty sure your relationship with your D will get better without your W around belittling you. You have indicated you are currently interacting with two women and have zero problems attracting women.

Sounds to me that you have a helluva life ahead of you if you choose.

Originally Posted by Wolfman

There was no pleasing this woman. She looked for perfection in this m and since that doesn�t exist it was doomed from day one. Love is blind and boy was I blind. I think most women would have loved to have me as a husband. Hard working, loving, dedicated, truthful, great dad, and yet all of that didn�t add up for her. Yet she would find the few things I did wrong focus on that and make me out to be this horrible person.

This is just the norm to some people. You can't let it get you down. My ex was just the same. My boss is the same. You can bust a gut and he won't say thanks for the 10 things that you excelled in, he will flag up the one niggly thing that you didnt do. A lot of LBS on here seem to be hardworking, loving, totally dedicatedm honest, loyal, good dads etc.... But these things arent enough for some people...

Originally Posted by Wolfman

Something I want to share which I thought was so interesting. We had a family therapy session with my d therapist. There was one thing she said to my d that so applied to my w. The therapist said to my d there are 3 kinds of intelligence: 1 academic 2 logical 3 emotional. She said to my d that she is doing things in her life based on emotions not on logic. That if she really thought about certain situations logically she would make better decisions that make her decisions based on emotion. And she said a lot of people make made decisions when they are based solely on emotion because in that moment you may feel mad, sad, depressed. I wanted to say to my w do you see how you are handling our m?? You are making decisions based on emotion instead of logic. Because logically to break up a family over some minor things that happened a while ago it doesn�t make any logical sense. It as we all know they act based on emotion. It just saddens me that my w behavior is based on emotion not logic.

Not heard it before, but its very true... Like i mentioned in my thread, 99% of decissions my ex made were made on emotion - our arguments stemmed from my logical ( and sometimes academic ) response, usually trying to make her realise the idea was insane / silly. Logic is no match for their emotions.. My ex never listened to my logic when we were an item, and would stay moody with me until i found a solution to her "want"... So i realised kind of quickly once i found this board that there was no way back once she went WW.. You sound like you are in a similar situation...

You cant beat her emotion with rational or logic.. Alls you can do is get away from the negativity it brings...

Originally Posted by Wolfman

I think most women would have loved to have me as a husband

GAL - excerise, dress well, keep working hard, be a great day, recover, heal ..MORE GAL etc... then if and when you are ready to move on you may meet a better lady.. This time you will be experienced and know which flags to watch for..

Originally Posted by Wolfman

Having a rough morning. Depression is bad today.

Sorry to hear this.

Quote

I am just sad that it has almost been a year since the separation and nothing has changed.

It is OK to be sad. Feel the lose. It has been 10 years for me and my X never looked back. We can't control other people. That is why you have to let her go. Cry it all out. Let the anger out when it is safe. Scream in your car about how unfair it is.

Quote

Honestly I feel like I have nothing to look forward too.

I am looking forward to weddings and grand babies. Hopefully not for a while. My kids are 16,17,18,20. Looking forward to things way in the future helps me.

Quote

I wish there was good news people on here could give me. But her fog is thick and permanent.....Someone please wake me up from this nightmare.

The only good news I can give you is that once you come out the other side, things are better. It really [censored] being in the middle. Keep focused on your personal growth and your kids. Set her free. Let her go.

HUGS

LH you are so right about her not being a good w. I don�t know why I would want her back when these other women are so good to me. Granted it�s always like that in the beginning. It�s so true what they say you want what you can�t have. Right now I can�t have my w or probably ever again. LH I guess for me the other thing is I had my �fun� in college with women. I guess once I transitioned to husband and father I never thought of having to start over and play the field again. I was at a 4th of July party and another woman was hitting on me and asked me for my number. Again, that�s nice and all and makes me feel good but it�s not what I want. I guess I have to get out of the more of marriage and back into single mode. Obviously on here you guys can sense how down I am but when I am not here that is not at all what I show. I workout 5 days a week now, play on a baseball team, dress nice wear nice cologne, fun and happy. Actually I�m kinda shocked my w is not physically attracted to me. If she is, man she is good at hiding it.

Steve thank you for the encouragement, it really makes a difference.

Helpme other than literally taking my w out to dinner every night and kissing her all the time there is not much else I could have done. My IC said to me my w never matured and still wants to live like a 21 year old. That it�s not me but her who needs to mature and grow up. That is great and all I told my IC but this still hurts.

R2C I love Joan you are good at saying we need to express those emotions. Obviously when we are alone. I always feel better after a good cry. I have cried more this past year than my 41 years of life. I just keep telling myself things will eventually get better. I am just running out of patience. Thank you everyone for talking to me it always feels good seeing all of your responses!!!! Hugs to all!!!

Originally Posted by Wolfman

Actually I�m kinda shocked my w is not physically attracted to me. If she is, man she is good at hiding it.

I believe you are still somehow in beta behavior around W. It is about your behavior, not your looks. How you respond and interact with her. You are letting fear control you. She senses this. Or you are pursuing her indirectly. Or a combo.

Have you read "the art of seduction" yet? How about "the four agreements"?

R2C I have not read those books I definitely need to. I usually have bad stuff to talk about. I want to say I got off of one of my AD. It�s been 4 days and been doing prett good.

I realize the m is a complete lost cause. I literally get blamed for everything. I took the kids in the pool the other day. She was out for the day. So I figured the nice thing to do was to clean the filter out. So yesterday I get a text from w it says did you clean the pool filter the other day? I said yes. Her response: you put the lid on too right now it�s hard for me to take it off. No thank you just cold.

I was rereading Sandi�s post the other day about the ww. And one of the things she says is how they become cold and selfish. Man did she hit the nail on the head!!! I picked the kids up the other day from the house. I took them to get these kits how to make bracelets. They were doing that for a little while and then I had plans to take them out. I will say it was my mistake, I didn�t have them clean it all up before we left. Sure enough when I bring them back to drop them off, she brought up what a mess the table was, I apologized had the kids clean it up right away. But then she went on to say how the whole kitchen is a mess and it wasn�t that way before she left. I am going to have to take pictures when I go over. The kitchen was already a mess when I showed up but wants to blame it on me. Usually in the past I would have toook it to heart. I just validated that it must be frustrating when things are a mess. And then walked out of the room. She is trying to manipulate me into feeling bad and then cleaning up her mess. Not happening anymore. Just amazing how there is not ansingle thing in her mind I can do right.

Originally Posted by Wolfman

Just amazing how there is not a single thing in her mind I can do right.

I bet you load the dishwasher wrong. Handles up or down?

Originally Posted by Ready2Change

Originally Posted by Wolfman

Just amazing how there is not a single thing in her mind I can do right.

I bet you load the dishwasher wrong. Handles up or down?

Too funny!!!! A few days after BD, my WW went into a 5 minutes explanation about how I load the dishwasher wrong. LOL

You can't make this crap up.

Originally Posted by Steve85

... my WW went into a 5 minutes explanation about how I load the dishwasher wrong..

I could go into a 5 minute explanation about why loading a 380 into a 9mm is not a good idea...Most people would just put it in a say "it fits".....

No matter what we do, it is not good enough. Who cares? Let her have her story. Her opinions. Is it worth your energy to argue?

W:"The plates have to face the left, not the right."
H:"OK"
W:"The black plates can't be washed at the same time as the white ones"
H:"OK"

At some point, we just let her load the dishwasher.....

W:"Why are all the plates in the sink??"
H:"I am confused on how to load the dishwasher. I don't want to mess your system up" Wink Smile kiss walk away
W:"Bla bla bla bla"

Why is it they now blame us for everything? Is it to justify their actions? Why and how does a person become so focused only on the negative? Why am I always painted as a bad guy?

R2C it is not worth my time, you are right. But that doesn�t mean at times it doesn�t bother me. She use to be a person who saw so much good I did and praised me, now she has done a 180.

Journaling: This whole d has really left a big deep scar in my heart. No one will be able to see it but I will always feel it. It makes me scared will I ever be able to trust again. I gave this woman my life, my all and I wasn�t enough. I can�t help now that I am scared for the next serious relationship. How do I know? I know I won�t know. I just can�t ever image having to go through this again.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change

Originally Posted by Steve85

... my WW went into a 5 minutes explanation about how I load the dishwasher wrong..

I could go into a 5 minute explanation about why loading a 380 into a 9mm is not a good idea...Most people would just put it in a say "it fits".....

Or a 556 into a specific 223 barrel. But it will work the other way around because of the headspace.

I have a question for everyone and I am so torn. We did a family counseling session a week ago. One of the things that came up in the session is how afraid my d is when I raise my voice at her when she is not listening. That I really scare her when I do that. The counselor asked for me not to raise my voice like that but to sleep to her when she is not listening or behaving. And to let my d know if she doesn�t listen there will be consequences. So 2 days ago I was going to take my kids to an outside movie. You bring chairs and blankets and food. When I told my s and d we were going my s said ok let�s go my d said she wasn�t going. Now she is only 12 and I would have normally left her alone but the place was far and the movie was 2 hours. So she would have been alone for about 4-5 hours. She kept saying she wasn�t going I can�t make her go. This carried on, I had to take her cell phone away. Then my w got involved and started screaming at her that she has to go with me. Then my w said aren�t you going to yell at her, I said the therapist doesn�t want me yelling at her anymore. So she got annoyed because I was just trying to talk to my d.
So what do I do? Go against the therapist who says I shouldn�t be yelling at my d or yell at my d to get her to listen. Life should not be this hard. I am so emotionally drained. Like going through d is not hard enough now I have to deal with and who never wants to be with me. I�m tired of people telling me that she is just a kid, that it�s hard for her, she will be emotional. That doesn�t make what she is doing less hurtful. I know many of you won�t believe this but my d is a big contributing factor to my d. Because after that whole incident who was my w mad at, yep me. My s is so good and understanding. This is a big reason I go into these bad depression holes. I�m losing my house, my d wants no part of me, my w is d me. Everything and everyone I loved is rejecting me or gone. Except my s. If it wasn�t for him I would be much worse off.

To answer your question, no, you should not yell at your daughter.

Are you in IC? You need counseling to help you process your feelings about your daughter. I know it�s hurtful, but you need to be the grownup in your relationship with her, and that means doing the right thing even if you are hurt. The comparison to your son, the blaming her (at least in part) for the divorce are not good, and I am sure she senses that.

Since you can anticipate that situations like this will arise, I would prepare by arranging for a babysitter for her the next time. You don�t want her dictating what you and S get to do, but it�s also unproductive to try to force her to go.

Quote

I want to say I got off of one of my AD. It�s been 4 days and been doing prett good.

Is this under a doctor's guidance or just on your own? It is very dangerous to stop taking AD's cold turkey. You have to slowly reduce the dosage over a safe period of time.

Hi Wolf,

No yelling required. Calm is best.

Read "parenting with love and logic". Lots of great ways to deal with parenting issues. When you are done, Give it to wife and say:
"I read this and I liked the advise. Would you read it and give me your opinion?"

I picked this line up somewhere and it makes sense:
"Who ever reacts emotionally first looses". Let the child react emotionally. Validate the emotions.

I used the "Draining my energy" statement a lot.

"This is starting to drain my energy, I might not have enough energy to _________"

The blank would be something important. "Take you to the birthday party this friday" starting this at 12 might be more difficult, but doable.

All I would have to say is "Do you want to drain my energy?" and the conflict would USUALLY de-escalate.

In your case, I like the baby sitter idea, but I don't know if it is a good idea RIGHT NOW to leave an unruly 12 yo child with a sitter. The child needs to fear the consequences her parent will give her for being unruly around a sitter.

Do as therapist says. get clarification and feedback next session.

Did you miss the movie? If so, then that is a BIG ENERGY DRAIN. My energy would be so low that I would not have any energy to anything the child requests until they raised my energy back up.

The cell phone is a great discipline. You and W need to be on the same page.

Quote

Why is it they now blame us for everything? Is it to justify their actions? Why and how does a person become so focused only on the negative? Why am I always painted as a bad guy?

B/c she won't/didn't take responsibility for her own happiness. It was easier to hold you responsible, although she did not about her negative mindset. It's all symptoms of developing a wayward mindset. She is hell bent on blaming you for whatever complaint she can find.

Some people are bound & determined to find something wrong with how you do thing. There was this man who could find nothing positive in his W's efforts, no matter how hard she tried to please him. One morning she asked him how he wanted his eggs cooked. He told he wanted one scrambled and the other egg fried. So, she prepared the eggs to the best of her ability and served her H. When he gazed upon his plate of food, he was furious. His poor W asked what was wrong. He said, "You fried the wrong egg"! So, there you have it. There's just no pleasing some folks.

On a more serious note, I don't know what to tell you how to make your D do something she refuses to do. She knows as long as her mother is nearby she doesn't have to obey you. Have you spoken with a child psychologist about how to deal with this problem?

She is at a very challenging age, and I can only imagine how her mother has planted unhealthy seeds in her mind. You definitely needs hands-on practical advice in dealing with both of them. (((hugs)))

Good morning. I want to address some of the concerns and questions.
I got off one of my AD from the advice of the therapist. I was on the lowest dose possible. It�s been a week and so far so good. Some withdrawal but since I am aware of it not letting it get me down.

I do go to an IC. I deal with all my problems there. My d also goes to a therapist as well. Both my therapist and my d both say to speak with her and not to yell. The problem is speaking does nothing. Unfortunately my d only responds to yelling. My w yells all the time. I am working very hard not to yell, it�s difficult when it takes 30 minutes to get my d to respond to certain things. I�m not kidding I have timed it. The only punishment my d responds to is taking the phone away.

Sandi, it is so hard to deal with. I am a good man, father and husband and for her to say all head bad things is hard. I try to tell myself I am not that person she try to paint me as. It�s funny I follow the advice on here, GAL, 180, dress well, confident and happy. It doesn�t seem to make a difference. She still will find things that I did wrong or have done wrong.

I was talking to a colleague yesterday. She told me she went through a mid life crisis, she said she was unhappy with everything, blaming everyone for her unhappiness, she said there was nothing anyone could say or do that would change those feelings. She said it took 2 years for her to go through it. She said at the time she didn�t realize it it was a MLC. She said she just had to go though it on her own. She also said it made her question everything about her life. That is where my w is at. The only problem is MLC can take 2-5 years to go through, my w is only at year one.

I struggle with the loss of family. I love my family so much and would never put the people I love through such heartache. She doesn�t realize the long term affects this will have on our children either. My emotional pain is a little less ands it been a year.evidently I have a lot of healing to do. When I�m in the house sometimes I look at the pictures of all the family vacations we went on and wonder, where did that �woman� go? How does she not see all the fun we have had as a family? And to me this is so weird. In the past she complained that it was hard for her to keep up with the house stuff (I did most of the house cleaning), we didn�t go on enough vacations (5 a year) didn�t have enough money to buy whatever, etc., etc, how is d going to make that any easier? It�s going to make it all harder. She is already complaining to me about how difficult it is to take care of the pool. She made a comment the other day about how is she going to do this financially? I guess she would rather struggle with that than be with me and be a family.

How is GAL coming along, Wolf?

Can you give an example of a conversation with your daughter that went on for 30 minutes?

Talking to a child about a subject not of their choosing for 30 minutes is pointless at best and probably counterproductive.

Steve it is good. I go to the gym 5 days a week for about an hour and half, play on a baseball team, contacting for of my friends and making plans with them. Something else that I don�t know how it will be taken here. I started to see another woman. We go to dinner and it dancing. She knows my situation and is ok with it. When I am with my kids I take them places and do fun things with them. So GAL is going well.

Rose it was bad of me to even make it go on you long. I asked my d and s to go to an outdoor movie. You can bring chairs a blanket and food. When I told them we were going my s was good with it.
D: I�m not going
M: d it will be fun
D: you can�t make me go.
M: I would really like for you to come it will be fun.
D: it�s boring and I am not going
M: I would leave you home but we will be gone for about 4 hours. I can�t leave you home by yourself for that long.
The place was 45 minutes away and had to stop for food that�s why i would be gone for 4 hours.
D: I don�t care I�m not going.
Well this went on for about half an hour. To the point I had to start to really yell at her because she was not moving. And I took her cell phone away for not listening. I�m telling everyone on the board if I would have been gone for only an hour I would have left her home. Also, I would be getting home at 10:30 at night she just turned 12. I did not want to physically grab her either because that would not be good, so I got stuck there for 30 minutes. To her crying in the car she did not want to go or be with me!! My d IC told us she is one of the most stubborn girls she has worked with and she has been doing this 15 years. And she told us this is only the beginning, that my d will get more difficult. Can�t wait for that.

My sadness comes mostly from the loss of family. I�m not even sure it�s from the loss of my w. Yes it hurts, but not as much anymore. I have been meeting a lot of women and now seeing this one and wow. There are women out there that have the same interests and values. My w and I are complete opposites we always knew that I guess it just finally caught up with us. We always thought opposites attract, I guess for only so long.

I would have "family meetings" to address things. I had to project that I had all the time in the world. 4 teens were a handful.

I would always start with "who wants to get this done quickly?"

I would have a list of topics. Anytime the kids brought up a "distraction" I would add it to the end. Sometimes they lasted 4 hours. The goal was getting their behaviors to change with the threat of a "Family meeting"

Child: Can I go to friends house Friday?
Me: "I was planning on Friday to have a family meeting to discuss the "movie night drama. We need to resolve the first issue before discuss the friends house. Would you like to have the meeting sooner? "
Child "Bla bla bla bla......hate you...bla bla
Me "I am sorry you feel that way. I love you"

Lately I have noticed that my w calls me for everything. The pool filter lid was on too tight. The other day she went for a walk a called me that she was almost kidnapped. Called me this morning that my dog was having a hard time getting up. The other day my d was a pain, call d me she felt sick and needed to go to the hospital. Is this considered cake eating? She doesn�t want me as her husband anymore yet calls me for every little thing that goes wrong. Not for nothing I am kinda over it and ready to move on in my life. She has done a real good job pushing me away.

W,

Letting you know your D was in pain and needs to go to the hospital isn't cake eating.

Your over it and ready to move on. Boy that changed quickly!!

Whoops I should have re-read that. My w needed to go to the hospital, because she was so stressed out. My auto correct really messes things up. So my w constantly calling me and looking for support is what I am asking? Is that cake eating. Sorry for the confusion.

W,

Make it clear to her that you are know longer her support system when things go wrong that aren�t related to the kids.

Just want to vent a little. I really miss being a family. I enjoyed every minute of our vacations and dinners together. I miss that sometimes after dinner we would stand I. The kitchen and do a family hug. It just brings me to tears thinking of the love we had as a family. What I wouldn�t give to have it all back. The days I don�t have the kids I am so sad. I try to fill up the day with stuff to do but it�s not the same. This is just the perception I get but, when she doesn�t have the kids she is loving life and the freedom, where I miss my kids so much and really don�t want my freedom. It�s weird for me to even say that because I use to love my freedom. I honestly feel like I was duped. I feel this way because she wanted to get married, have kids and now the 2 things she wanted most she is running from. She wants to just be free, free from marriage, free from responsibilities, free from having to take care of anyone but herself. That�s why I feel duped, when I got married it was for the long haul, not if things for a little while got hard to jump ship. It�s funny on here we talk about doing 180�s, she did the biggest 180 I didn�t think was possible. The mornings are hard for me, I feel most depressed in the morning and the Days I do t have the kids.

Sandi talks about the ww becoming cold and selfish, then I should take a picture of my w and put her on here because she is the epitomy of that. What happened in our society that the women are walking away from so many marriages? 70% of divorces are initiated by women. And it�s mostly here in the US. I�m rambling a bit just having a tough morning.

Wolf,

You remind me so much of myself. I miss being a family. I too have always loved our vacations and dinners. I too loved our family hugs. I never even imagined that our family would break up. I pray every day that she does a 180 and recommits to our family.

Like you, my wife seems to want her freedom more than anything else in life. While she is not out partying, she really only seems interested in doing what SHE wants to do. Luckily for my kids, this often involves them, but at the same time her selfishness is striking. She is fixated on her looks, clothing, fitness. She listens to pop music like it is Beethoven.

I beat myself up every day on what I should have done differently during our marriage, but I am starting to believe that there is nothing that I could have done. She is unhappy and depressed. She has been this way for a long time. I didn't cause this, and in fact I have done so much to bring happiness to her life. She is writing a different story now, but she is lying. Hang in there buddy. I keep crying every day, but I am getting stronger.

(((Wolfman)))... It really does boggle the mind, doesn�t it? I�m like you...commitment, loyalty, honesty, grit....these are the character traits that keep people going through the tough times and where real, true and lasting love comes from and they are ones that I have in spades. Sadly, I chose to marry someone who only pretended to have them and had I not been so blinded by those new love hormones, I would have seen it...there were a lot of signs. I now know that he was in love with the idea of love and doesn�t really know how to love someone enough to get through tough times. When he starts to struggle, he points fingers and runs. He has quickly moved on to a new person hoping he can reinvent himself. He cannot. He will figure out eventually that he cannot divorce himself. I don�t know if your W falls into the category of people my H does or if she is going through an MLC. If it is the latter, then there is still hope, IMO, but it will be a long road. I don�t know if you were duped or not. I know I was but there are other people on here who I don�t think were and I think their spouses will find their way back. Your W may be in that category.

I remember the early days of my sitch when I was having all of the feelings you describe. I was in disbelief, scared and really, really angry that my WAH was forcing me to become a �50% parent� and replacing me with OW for the other 50%. I, too, was not enjoying my freedom and missed my kids terribly. I missed my life...at least the one I thought I had. I now know that my life was a total and complete lie for at least the last five years. Hard to reconcile that someone can lie for that long to the people who care about him the most. I am not capable of that kind of deception...disillusioned or not.

So I was really, really sad and resentful for months. At some point though, I realized that if I was going to save myself and be a 100% mom for the 50% of time that I had my kids, I needed to find a way to accept what was happening and find happiness again. It took some time but not as much time as some on here. I think that�s because my H was �King Douche of Douchebag Land� (thanks AS for that title) and once I recognized that, I realized I hadn�t actually lost much and that it was mostly my fears that were holding me back. I then started to focus on what I had and not on what I didn�t have. I focused on the fact that I have a good job that enables me to stay in my home and do most of the things I could do when I was married and had the benefit of two salaries. I focused on the fact that I have supportive family members and friends who love me and think I deserve much, much better than my WAH. I have a MIL who loves her son but also supports me and has been a good �sparent�. And I have two amazing kids and a beautiful stepdaughter who love me unconditionally and who deserve a parent who greets them every morning with a smile and a hug and a love that knows no limits. I also have time when they aren�t with me to recharge and work on me. I didn�t have that before and I have now come to enjoy the time I am on my own knowing that my children are being loved by their dad who is now a real presence in their life and that the OW is kind to my kids and they like her. These are all blessings.

I know this is not what you planned or what you wanted but that no longer matters...it is what you have. Feel your feelings...grieve the life you had and the life you thought you would have...count your blessings...embrace the uncertainty as there are endless possibilities...be the best Wolfman you can be and above all, as DnJ reminded me many, many times...choose better, not bitter. Time really is a great healer and if you continue to GAL and do the 180s you need to do for you, you will begin to heal in spite of yourself. I know I did and a year ago, I would not have believed it. Do I still sometimes think about what could have been if only my H had made different choices? Yes I do but it no longer sends me spinning. I just refocus, again, on what I have and on my desire to be the best DV6 I can be for my kids and the people in my life who love and support me. You will get there too. I promise you will. Have faith. (((HUGS)))

Wolf...dude I'm sorry, up front I could have written what you wrote word for word back this time a year or so ago. One thing I did and might help you, try to abstract away the specifics of what you are dealing with here. By that I mean depersonalize the "I'm losing my wife, my family, etc" because underneath those specifics the simple fact is that you are dealing with a loss of control of what you want in your life and that is paralyzing you from doing what you need to do. I started to thing about...if a family member were to pass I would be crushed and wouldn't have wanted it to happen, but logically I know I have no control over that so after a period I would have to go on with my life. Then think about all of the other areas of your life that you enjoy which you would hope to never end, but they do. Could be an awesome vacation, the holidays, heck even a great football game, book, movie. Whatever it is, things in life have an end and whether we like it or not that is our reality. We can't control that beyond ourselves...and God is that something you learn about here and it takes us all as long as it takes to come to terms with it.

Like DV6 said "I needed to find a way to accept what was happening and find happiness again." And also "I know this is not what you planned or what you wanted but that no longer matters...it is what you have." Simple statements of truth and distilled down so much of what we are all confronting is that one word, the reality of it's meaning and our desire to fight against it. It is what it is. Nobody said this process that we all walk is would be easy, and the other truth is that even though we all fight it, we have really no choice but to go through it. Also as DV6 says "you will get through this". I say it all the time it amazes me how unbelievably difficult it can be for all of us to do the simplest of things. Get up on and go on with your life. Trust me I know how hard that single stupidly easy statement can be. You will find a way buddy! Hang in there!

-B

Destryd everything you wrote in the last paragraph is so true. She totally rewrote history, makes me the villain and she did nothing wrong. I always think maybe if I did this or that we wouldn�t be here. But from what I keep reading on here it would have happened eventually. It just hurts so much to give your heart and soul to someone and for them to not see it is scary and very depressing.

Dejavu I honestly believe my w is going through a midlife crisis. When our friends d drowned last summer (she is alive but in bad shape) it did something to my w. She started to question life particularly her life. She is chasing happy, but she doesn�t know how to make herself happy. I have spoke to many women I am friends with, some of them went through a MLC. Everything they told me they experienced and felt is my w. The problem is we are heading down divorce lane. There is nothing that is stopping her. All the women I spoke to said it took about 1-2 years before they came out of the �fog�. 2 actually told me it was like a switch went off when they realized their h was a good man and they want to Ben married. I really hate where I am right now. Emotionally and mentally. I have never felt this way in 41 years. It makes me so angry that she is putting our family through this with no remorse.

Ballast I am trying so hard to accept what is. Just like if there was a death I get it. But unlike death I would still be in my Himenez with my kids everyday. Even though I know I made the mistake of leaving it the long run she is buying Ken out and I will be without my home anyway. Only see my kids half the time. So I feel this is harder, and a constant reminder of seeing her all the time. This has been about a year going on and I still feel utterly depressed.

I have given my w time and space with no pressure and nothing changes. Unfortunately she is one of those once she makes up her mind there is no turning back. I miss my family!! I miss my life!!!

Just got off the phone with my w. I actually called my d to see how they are. Today is my w�s day with the kids. She took the phone from my d to complain to me how bad the kids have been behaving and how hard it is for her with them. How they don�t do anything in the house to help and all the do is fight. That it�s not fair that I can come over and pick them up and they have no responsibility with me. That they get to do fun things with me. That I need to be a disciplinarian more and have to help her to get the kids to do things in the home. That it�s not fair that she wants to do fun things with the kids but she can�t.
She kinda caught me off guard with this. I validated everything g she said. How hard they are and that it must be tough when they don�t listen. But the idea that she wants me to have them clean the house and I don�t live there anymore is her problem. When I finally get my own place is she going to come to my home and have the kids clean up there? Probably not!! She really didn�t think this divorce thing through. Then of course at the end she hurried off that she is starting to have chest pains. Oh I almost forgot. She was saying right in front of them, how horrible they are, that they are a nightmare, how her students are better than our own kids. She is truly in a bad place. It�s very sad.

I�m sure the kids are angry. They don�t want this and have no control over it. But my w doesn�t get that because it�s all about her. D was suppose to make her life easier and more fun. She is really getting a taste of her new reality..

Any advice when she wants me to have the kids clean the house on the days I have them? Because that is bull.

Wolf. Decisions have consequences don't they? Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. I love how she blames you for having fun with the kids and that a disciplinarian is what the home and kids need. I guess a father figure and a husbandly leader figure is what's needed in the home too. But she's fired you as her husband for her own reasons and not the families.

IH what my w doesn�t understand is that the kids are angry about the situation and are acting out. But all she cares about is herself. Poor her that she has to take care of the kids on her own. Poor her that the kids don�t always clean up that she actually has to clean up. I use to do it all the time when I was home. Unfortunately she was brought up spoiled and I continued it when we got married. But now I am not there to spoil her and she is getting frustrated that she has to do it all on her own. And likes to throw in that she doesn�t feel well of that she has chest pains. I use to feel bad for her and run all the time. Not anymore. She has to come to grips with her new reality. Again I say I don�t know how she thought this d was going to make her life easier and happy. She thought I was the root of all her problems and d me was going to get rid of those problems. But because she took me for granted she is starting to see life is not so easy and that I did a lot more than she gave me credit for.

My w has stooped to a new low. The other day she said she needed her w2. I figured it was for her to refinance the house. Since I did the taxes I�m the one who had it. So I brought it over the other day. Then she asked me if I was going to finish paying off her dad. Let me explain what happened here. When we bought this house 10 years ago, I wanted to put 20% down in the process I forgot about the closing costs and was going to be short money. So when we sat down and spoke about it, she said to ask her father to borrow the money which was $16k. So I sat down with her father and explained the situation and he said fine. So over the years we have been paying him back little by little. When we decided to separate a year ago we owed him $4k. So to do the right thing I paid her dad $2500 of my own money, a little more than half. Now come the other day she says to me instill owe her dad money. I said no I paid him my half actually a little more than my half I told her. She said but you owe him the rest. I said no the rest is up to you to pay. She said no that since I spoke to her father it is my responsibility now to pay him off. I said why should it just be my responsibility? He gave that money to US to help US pay for OUR home. So goes, yeah but since you asked it�s your responsibility. So I said that it�s not just my responsibility it�s yours too. That WE have been paying him for the last 10 years out of OUR checking account. But she just kept repeating herself and so did I. Then she said you will have to speak to my dad about it. I said sure no problem have him call me. Which then I got roped into a relationship talk. Which I know is a no no here.

In that talk the reason that she is divorcing me is so ridiculous. I know to her these are real problems but for the average married couple they are nothing. She said things like when she went back to work at night I didn�t text her which was only twice a year. That she felt like I didn�t love her or care. That when she would come home from work I wouldn�t greet her hello all the time. That I would just yell downstairs hello. The reason I told her I didn�t run downstairs I was in our office make business calls. It wasn�t like I was watching tv or playing video games I was working. She claims there was times she was crying in bed and I did nothing. I am telling all of you if wouldnhave seen her crying I would have comforted her. That I made a big deal out of the house being a mess. Again I am telling all of you my home would be a disaster for weeks, so yeah i would ask her to clean up HER stuff. That�s all but that made her feel like a maid. My bedroom was covered in clothes, shoes and bags. So what�s wrong with me asking her to please clean up our bedroom? Oh and she said all I cared about was money. Look the reality is we go to work to make money so we can pay the bills and do fun things. She is a spend aholic so yeah someone had to worry about money or else we wouldn�t have enough to pay the bills. During this tirade I validated her feelings and did not argue with her. The last thing is she said she told me that these things bothered her and I did nothing. Ow that we are here I care. And she says it�s too late. Last she said I see the changes but she doesn�t believe they will stay. I know I said it before, it�s so sad to me that she wants to break up a family over things that are very fixable. Anytime I brought all the ways I have helped her she would dismiss it like they were not important. How I took on a second job so we could afford the 5 vacations a year. How I would run to the supermarket after work so she didn�t have to food shop. How I did the landscaping to help us save money so we could enjoy more activities. Again I was a dedicated hard working husband and father. Did I have my faults sure. I have owned up to them and improved myself because of that. No m is perfect and there will be ups and downs, but she is so stuck on the negatives in our m then all the good that came from it and the fun we had.

Why do they get so stuck on the negative? What triggers this person that use to love is with all their heart paint is as a terrible person and only remember the negative? How does a recognize the changes but then continue on this destructive path? And the biggest one, why does it look like this doesn�t phase them in the least and I am the one suffering real bad? Why would they want to be a single parent instead of trying to work things out?

I know I need to let go and some days I feel fine and ready to move on, others my mind goes back to all these questions.

Wolf, remember DB principles.

You should have left the thing with the loan from her dad like this:

"I paid him $2500 of the final $4000. I do not feel the other $1500 is my responsibility." And left it at that.

When she launched into her reasons for D, listen and validate. Then after a few minutes make an excuse for why you have to go. I know you said you listened and validated, I hope that is true. Because if you pointed out your changes....REALLY REALLY REALLY bad move. This cements in her mind that you are only showing changes to try to save the marriage and that you haven't really changed. People that really changed DO NOT GO AROUND SAYING THEY'VE CHANGED. People that want people to think they changed go around saying it.

They dwell on the negatives because it fits the narrative for what they want to do. No one ever has said "My marriage was so good, but I want to end it!"

Ok. Wolfy I have to beat you up here.

Originally Posted by Wolfman

Which then I got roped into a relationship talk. Which I know is a no no here.

You know its a no no but yet you still got roped in and paid the price yet again.

Originally Posted by Wolfman

In that talk the reason that she is divorcing me is so ridiculous. I know to her these are real problems but for the average married couple they are nothing.

99% of the problems here are fixable if you get two people committed to fixing them. Your sitch isn't unique wolf.

Originally Posted by Wolfman

She said things like when she went back to work at night I didn�t text her which was only twice a year. That she felt like I didn�t love her or care. That when she would come home from work I wouldn�t greet her hello all the time. That I would just yell downstairs hello.

I am sorry you felt that way. You must have felt unloved. Is that how you felt?

Originally Posted by Wolfman

The reason I told her I didn�t run downstairs I was in our office make business calls. It wasn�t like I was watching tv or playing video games I was working.

Logic and reason and invaliding her feelings. DB 101

Originally Posted by Wolfman

She claims there was times she was crying in bed and I did nothing.

I am sorry you felt that way. You must have felt alone. Is that how you felt. DB 101

Originally Posted by Wolfman

Last she said I see the changes but she doesn�t believe they will stay.

I agree with her. What are these changes? That you understand her feelings? Because clearly you don't.

Originally Posted by Wolfman

I know I said it before, it�s so sad to me that she wants to break up a family over things that are very fixable.

Yep. You are like a broken record.

Originally Posted by Wolfman

Anytime I brought all the ways I have helped her she would dismiss it like they were not important.

Maybe they weren't important to her. Most of them were covert contracts anyway.

Originally Posted by Wolfman

How I took on a second job so we could afford the 5 vacations a year. How I would run to the supermarket after work so she didn�t have to food shop.

Maybe vacations weren't important to her and she just wanted more of your time.

Originally Posted by Wolfman

Did I have my faults sure. I have owned up to them and improved myself because of that. No m is perfect and there will be ups and downs, but she is so stuck on the negatives in our m then all the good that came from it and the fun we had.

Again, what are these improvements?

Originally Posted by Wolfman

Why do they get so stuck on the negative? What triggers this person that use to love is with all their heart paint is as a terrible person and only remember the negative? How does a recognize the changes but then continue on this destructive path?

Because they are unhappy and it is their belief that we are the cause of their unhappiness.

Originally Posted by Wolfman

And the biggest one, why does it look like this doesn�t phase them in the least and I am the one suffering real bad?

You are suffering so bad because you choose to suffer.

Originally Posted by Wolfman

Why would they want to be a single parent instead of trying to work things out?

So she can haveher freedom, date other men and if that doesn't work out run right back to the wolfster.

Originally Posted by Wolfman

I know I need to let go and some days I feel fine and ready to move on, others my mind goes back to all these questions.

Well now that I have answered your questions, maybe you can start to make some real changes and move forwards. You are stuck my friend and will continue to be stuck until you start to love yourself and realize that life is to short for this BS.

Do you understand how your W feels at all? Do you know you have the power to change the way she feels? Drop the rope. Forgive her. Forgive her some more. Forgive yourself. Do not argue with her. Set her free. DROP THE ROPE.

You are not listing to her. You are arguing with her. If you love her, you will stop arguing. You will listen to understand her.

I was completely ready for MsR2C to spew her hatred to me...it never came. Do not push your wife further away.

R2C is right about the arguing. Stop arguing, and start listening like you were talking to an unattached friendly cashier at the store. You know. The kind of interaction that has little impact on your emotions.

Wolf I am going to play devils advocate here. If you changed everything about yourself that W complained about in 24hrs, and made it stick. Would it make a difference? Its too late anyway. Right? For her and the marriage anyway. There is free will and free choice. People do because they want to do. Name one or two things W has validated about your experiences about the M positive or negative lately. Name something, anything nice, selfless, or caring or considerate your W has done for you recently. Name one kind deed your W has done, or has acted compassionately about, or accountable for for the downfall of the M. Don't you see? She is not your W any longer. She is not the person you married. This is all about her right now. So only when and if she brings things up. Keep it about her. If she wanted back in tomorrow. Would you take her back without her showing you some kind of proof or change on her part? Futhermore? Why would you want all this drama in your life. Another thing I realised as of lately. Alpha males never complain. They just do. They just handle, they just are. They are not riddled with emotion because they are too busy living for themselves, regardless of who is in and out of your life. You are the prize. Remember that. You come first. After your kids. I know it's easy to get attached to memories, but you need to save yourself. I finally came to the realization that I wouldn't take anyone back that would want to leave me get away from me and not want to be with me. That they would be the ones that decided to leave and that's their choice to do so. That most likely there will be only two reasons for them to come back either their first option plan A didn't work out for them. or that they had a considerably serious change of heart and they would have to demonstrate over time with more than just words, but actions. Be done with it and get on with your life for you. Maybe she will come around one day and maybe she won't but I wouldn't wait or expect it.

Wolf, the advice on this page from Steve, LH, R2C and IH is golden. Read it and really take it to heart.

The fighting has got to stop, that would be a huge 180. Listen and validate, that's it. Nothing more. If she says "Wolf, you are single-handedly responsible for the decline of civilization and you are why a meteorite struck the earth and killed the dinosaurs and you are also why I was unhappy when I opened my Christmas presents in the 3rd grade and didn't get the Happy Donna Doll I asked for" then your response should be "that must have been difficult for you, it sounds like you are sad and frustrated, is that how you feel?" Just listen and validate no matter how outrageous her claims seem to be. Because anything else will just to a fight, because right now she's programmed herself to escalate.

Recognize and identify what you're doing wrong and stop yourself before repeating it. It is very VERY difficult to do this, but do it you must. Years ago someone that posted here used to say that when he was interacting with his W he would picture me on his shoulder telling him what to say and do and what not to. Sure that was flattering to hear, but more than that it's a BRILLIANT technique. I'm not saying picture me in particular, but just try to imagine the vets here collectively perched on your shoulder coaching you when you are around W. Maybe that will help you break out of the cycle.

Steve thank you for that. I am working hard to be DB. Sometimes I just get caught up in the moment. Like with the money issue. I have to be better at walking away sooner.

LH I love the 2x4s. It really helps. I wish I had a microphone and an earpiece so you could tell me what to say. Every time I read what I should have said I always say to myself why didn�t I think of that. I validate but you and some of the others on here say it so much better. LH you ask what are the changes. I�m just going to list them: I go to IC, I barely yell anymore, I really listen to what she says, I keep better track of the kids activities that a lot of times now she asks me what they have and which day, I don�t complain about the house, I don�t complain about money, upbeat and happy all the time. She has made comments about a few of these things that she has noticed. One thing you said LH I really don�t understand. You said I suffer because I choose to suffer. I am not choosing it at all. I try very hard everyday to find positive things and to stay focused on that. But my mind goes back to the memories of the past. I keep telling myself to leave them there but they come back. I tell myself I have women hitting on me and there are plenty of fish in the sea but then my mind will say I don�t want those �fish�

A lot of my post just got cut off. I have more to say but gottta run and I will address the other comments.

Originally Posted by Wolfman

I love the 2x4s. It really helps. I wish I had a microphone and an earpiece so you could tell me what to say. Every time I read what I should have said I always say to myself why didn�t I think of that. I validate but you and some of the others on here say it so much better.

It takes a lot of practice. Try it with your kids, especially your daughter

Originally Posted by Wolfman

you ask what are the changes. I�m just going to list them: I go to IC, I barely yell anymore, I really listen to what she says, I keep better track of the kids activities that a lot of times now she asks me what they have and which day, I don�t complain about the house, I don�t complain about money, upbeat and happy all the time. She has made comments about a few of these things that she has noticed.

Come on Wolfy. These are either exaggerations of the truth or things you are doing to get her back. We have just established that you don't really listen to her.

Originally Posted by Wolfman

One thing you said LH I really don�t understand. You said I suffer because I choose to suffer.

Are you healthy? Are your kids healthy? Do you have friends and family? Do you have a job? Do you have a roof over your head? Do you have food to eat?

Originally Posted by Wolfman

I try very hard everyday to find positive things and to stay focused on that. But my mind goes back to the memories of the past. I keep telling myself to leave them there but they come back.

Stay in the present Wolf. Yesterday is gone and tomorrow isn't here yet.

Originally Posted by Wolfman

I tell myself I have women hitting on me and there are plenty of fish in the sea but then my mind will say I don�t want those �fish�

It's because you are not ready. You will be in the future. Then you will realize how ridiculous it was for you to put up with the bs.

Have you read No Mr. Nice Guy?

I was going to say the same thing as LH about the arguing. If there is one thing you taught me Wolfie. For example. If your daughter started throwing a tantrum. Would you yell back or argue with her? Your W is no different. Just an oversized adult version with higher priorities and needs of her own, whether delusional emotional factual, logical or not. Still her truth.

I'll give you two instances of my sich. After a convo with W last week. I told my w that if I ever stop yelling, and stop arguing. That would be a time to be concerned. She looked at me like what do you mean you're not going to do anything stupid are you? I was like no. The day I stop arguing and fighting is the day Im no longer emotionally vested in this. She says to me. "You must have read my mind. That's what I was thinking the last year or so."

This week I slipped. I was taking S1 shirt off, having a little difficulty getting his arm out of the sleeve, she stepped in to take over control, or so I thought, but according to her just trying to help, and I snapped at her to "mind her business" She knows I don't like controlling behaviors from anyone in attempt to override or disrespect me or my abilities. She's done that before with me in front of company with loading S1 into car seat before because of a twisted seat belt. Tried to vebalkt make me into a fool in front of company. I don't like people grabbing stuff or people for that matter out of my hands whether they are trying to be helpful or not. (I've had crazy past GF's try to grab car steering wheel out of my hands while driving.) I apoligized for snapping, and stated next time she wants to help just ask. I will work on my perception with that.

The point being is choose not to argue. Choose to not emotionally engage when and if provoked. Choose to walk away if the convo goes sideways. State why that is a boundary and you only do it and say it once. From there on forward you just do it. No need to explain. Choose to set boundaries for bad behavior. Choose to remain in control of yourself. Choose Civility, to validate, and not take it personally anymore. She isn't your wife anymore. You are not emotionally, physically, financially, attached to her anymore. Choose to listen impartially without involving your perception or opinion unless asked for it.
They will sense it. I think i am at the beginning of finally understanding this and implementing it a little too late, but oh well, its for me. Its for me to become less emotionally reactive as time goes on for me. To be a better person, and less "emotionally abusive." There will be times of intentional disrespect and unintentional disrespect and it's going to be hard to distinguish the difference and not become reactive to it. This is what's in any relationship whether with W or someone else. It's hard not to argue with your own point of view when that's all you know. You have to try and see from the other side and find the solution, rather than dig in your heels to fight for what you think is right.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander

Your response should be "that must have been difficult for you, it sounds like you are sad and frustrated, is that how you feel?" Just listen and validate no matter how outrageous her claims seem to be.

This will work every time. Memorize it. Practice it. Practice it with your D. Practice it in the car by yourself.

Just change the emotions as needed. Frustrated is one of my favorite words.

Ask yourself "How would I feel if that happened to me?"

Scared, Happy, Worried

Originally Posted by AnotherStander

The fighting has got to stop, that would be a huge 180. Listen and validate, that's it. Nothing more. If she says "Wolf, you are single-handedly responsible for the decline of civilization and you are why a meteorite struck the earth and killed the dinosaurs and you are also why I was unhappy when I opened my Christmas presents in the 3rd grade and didn't get the Happy Donna Doll I asked for" then your response should be "that must have been difficult for you, it sounds like you are sad and frustrated, is that how you feel?" Just listen and validate no matter how outrageous her claims seem to be. Because anything else will just to a fight, because right now she's programmed herself to escalate.

I really like what you wrote here because if she did say something like that I would argue it. So this really gets me to understand what she is saying and just validate those bad feelings. I am going to post this to see if I did the quote the right way. I have more to say.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change

Do you understand how your W feels at all? Do you know you have the power to change the way she feels? Drop the rope. Forgive her. Forgive her some more. Forgive yourself. Do not argue with her. Set her free. DROP THE ROPE.

You are not listing to her. You are arguing with her. If you love her, you will stop arguing. You will listen to understand her

How can I change the way she feels? I give space, we have a parenting schedule, I know I have made some mistakes but I validate. I made bunch of changes. I see no hope from her. I forgive her for what she is putting this family through. Nothing has made a difference. We have been at this for a year now. She is enjoying her freedom. Sandi talks about in her posts how some want to be a girls gone wild. That�s my w. The days she doesn�t have the kids she is out living it up. She has become a teenager all over again. Partying and acting like a selfish brat. I am sorry I am not ready for divorce, I know I have no choice but I am not ready to be a single father!!!

Originally Posted by LH19

Originally Posted by Wolfman

you ask what are the changes. I�m just going to list them: I go to IC, I barely yell anymore, I really listen to what she says, I keep better track of the kids activities that a lot of times now she asks me what they have and which day, I don�t complain about the house, I don�t complain about money, upbeat and happy all the time. She has made comments about a few of these things that she has noticed.

Come on Wolfy. These are either exaggerations of the truth or things you are doing to get her back. We have just established that you don't really listen to her.

These are things I have really done. For me to be a better person and yes for her to see I am not the same guy and spark her interest. I am not exaggerating my changes.

Originally Posted by Wolfman

One thing you said LH I really don�t understand. You said I suffer because I choose to suffer.

Are you healthy? Are your kids healthy? Do you have friends and family? Do you have a job? Do you have a roof over your head? Do you have food to eat?

Just because I have all those things doesn�t mean a person can�t suffer. I suffer because of the loss of family and w.

Originally Posted by Wolfman

I tell myself I have women hitting on me and there are plenty of fish in the sea but then my mind will say I don�t want those �fish�

It's because you are not ready. You will be in the future. Then you will realize how ridiculous it was for you to put up with the bs.

Have you read No Mr. Nice Guy?

Yes it is a lot of BS. I guess I put up with it because of the family dynamic. They say we learn a lot about families from our parents. My dad was not happy in his m to my mom. But he said he always stayed for me and my brothers he didn�t want to put us through that. I have put up with so much BS with my w and wouldn�t leave because I felt like that�s not what you do when you have a family. Especially when you have kids.

Originally Posted by IHCLACS

I was going to say the same thing as LH about the arguing. If there is one thing you taught me Wolfie. For example. If your daughter started throwing a tantrum. Would you yell back or argue with her? Your W is no different. Just an oversized adult version with higher priorities and needs of her own, whether delusional emotional factual, logical or not. Still her truth.

The point being is choose not to argue. Choose to not emotionally engage when and if provoked. Choose to walk away if the convo goes sideways. State why that is a boundary and you only do it and say it once. From there on forward you just do it. No need to explain. Choose to set boundaries for bad behavior. Choose to remain in control of yourself. Choose Civility, to validate, and not take it personally anymore. She isn't your wife anymore. You are not emotionally, physically, financially, attached to her anymore. Choose to listen impartially without involving your perception or opinion unless asked for it.

You are right she is acting like a kid. Throwing tantrums when she doesn�t get her way. She feels she has been cheated in life. That she is missing out on something. She is chasing happy. I have read it on here many times how people like this don�t know how to make themselves happy so they go out chasing it. Since she is not happy right now she thinks I am the cause of her unhappiness and to get rid of me. Unfortunately for me this is her truth right now. Can it change maybe but I don�t know when. According to MLC I still have at least another year before she come out of this if she even does. I will work hard on not arguing and getting caught up in the BS. I woke up this morning having a massive panic attack. Just came on I have no idea why.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change

Originally Posted by AnotherStander

Your response should be "that must have been difficult for you, it sounds like you are sad and frustrated, is that how you feel?" Just listen and validate no matter how outrageous her claims seem to be.

This will work every time. Memorize it. Practice it. Practice it with your D. Practice it in the car by yourself.

I am going to practice it and stick with it. Can�t let my emotions get caught up in this.

The other day we started to go over the stipulation for d. It took every once of my will power not to break down and cry. And yet she went through it like nothing. It�s been said many times I am just reiterating a point. She is not the woman I married. The woman I married would never let this happen to her family or to her kids. It�s all about her and that�s it.makes me very sad that my w is gone. When i see pictures of us I just think, where did she go???

Please start a new thread.

Originally Posted by Wolfman

How can I change the way she feels?

MY lady feels better after she talks to me for about an hour. As long as I don't say much and listen and understand how she is feeling, she is then relaxed. She feels better. During that hour, her emotions will go up and down, left and right. Vents to me about me, the kids, co workers, clients, her siblings, her parents.

My step daughter was so angry that "NO ONE LISTENS TO ME!!!" She said I am the only one.

Be safe to talk to. Listen to her story. Her story is not right or wrong. It is not good or bad. It is just her story. Do not take any of it personally.

W,

You keep stating in every post that it's all about her and what she wants. Can't I argue that you are acting the same way and it's all about you and what you want?

Here is the new thread.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2859918&#Post2859918

Originally Posted by LH19

W,

You keep stating in every post that it's all about her and what she wants. Can't I argue that you are acting the same way and it's all about you and what you want?

Not really. I am looking at the family dynamic. Looking to keep us intact for our kids. These are fixable problems. Have you ever had a problem you couldn�t fix and asked someone for help and they fixed it for you? Because you couldn�t see the problem? That�s what�s going on here, she is not acting rationally. I know this is her thinking NOW. And there is nothing I can do right now because she doesn�t see it. So yeah I want to fix it because she doesn�t see the problem and I do t want her regretting this d because she was acting emotionally and not logically. I can see how it looks like it�s what I want but I want what�s best for the family.

Originally Posted by Wolfman

Not really. I am looking at the family dynamic. Looking to keep us intact for our kids. These are fixable problems. Have you ever had a problem you couldn�t fix and asked someone for help and they fixed it for you? Because you couldn�t see the problem? That�s what�s going on here, she is not acting rationally. I know this is her thinking NOW. And there is nothing I can do right now because she doesn�t see it. So yeah I want to fix it because she doesn�t see the problem and I do t want her regretting this d because she was acting emotionally and not logically. I can see how it looks like it�s what I want but I want what�s best for the family.

Wolf, you and I share the same beliefs and values when it comes to our family. One of the main reasons we�ve put up with these horrible sitches for so long. The logic speaks for itself, but our WW won�t listen to it. I hope and pray that one day both of our W�s do. I can attest how difficult it is to remain patient, wait, and resist the urge to step in and help her. Stay strong Wolf, you are a great role model for your kids. Keep standing and hold onto that vision of how great your MR will be and how happy your family will be together in the future.