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Part 6Hello friends...
Just posting an update here. Still in IC, still working on my 180s, still working on things with W.
I've been repeating the word "practice" in my head a lot. As in practice the techniques to be calm, detached, good at listening, supportive, validating. I am trying to "practice" them everywhere from driving the car and dealing with turds to interactions with W and family. I'm getting better, but still not there. I'm still getting the urge to bicker, be petty, or get revenge after I feel slighted. That's obviously what caused a lot of resentment in my W.
I'm all stressed about the 4th b/c I'll probably be seeing my dad at his lake house. We will also be going to the inlaws lake house over the 4 day weekend. My R with him has gone downhill in the last few years, basically since getting married. I'm trying my best to understand why, but it's most likely b/c we've done spec homes and that's W's family's arena. They had a large construction company and FIL retired in his early 50's. My dad needs to be the smartest, needs to be needed, and wants to feel like everyone knows it. So this causes resentment and he has been combative and petty around me and W over the years. My sister even mentioned that my presence causes him to be less fun. Of course, he's not that easygoing to begin with. So this is why I'm all worried about it. My dad is super passive aggressive, sometimes blatantly aggressive, always dismissive, and deflects responsibility for how he treats everyone. And then our lake neighbors he holds up on this pedestal which makes me, W, and my sister mad b/c they get treated better.
I'm preparing to handle things differently but I'm not even sure how. 8 years ago I bought a boat with my dad, and we keep it at his lake house. Maybe in the next year or two I'll be buying a second home and I have a boat I keep at my home. We actually went out skiing and swimming last night on it, which was fun. So I'm just never sure what to do with my dad and it's pisses me off just thinking about it.
Over, curious if your W ever told you why she chose to end the A? Was it because she likes your 180s? Felt loss from you letting her go and moving on? Did the OM stop pursuing her? Your actions or something else?
In so many words, really. I never asked, and she never said "this is why it's over with OM". She told me that she loved me and we've always been passionate, but that she was scared of continuing to get hurt over and over. She saw me make some changes and wanted to try again. Of course me being way more successful, smarter, making way more money were the tangible differences that women want. Making the intangbile changes was what she really wanted and I'm sure it took her a while to get over her own anger that I had finally made those changes after my W was "done". Making 180s puts a strange turmoil on the WW/WH b/c now you are what they were looking for but they've gone and complicated things and it's hard to turn back.
I dunno if OM stopped pursuing her. I don't care. I don't think about OM much other than how it'd be great to run into him in a dark alley. But I have plenty of stuff going on, I wouldn't risk my business (soon to be businesses) over some scum on my boot.
I don't think she'd have been looking my way if I didn't let up on the pressure though. I hated stopping the pressure, it ate me up but I did it anyways. Once I stopped the pressure she had to look at this idiot that the OM was and his situation and it didn't look good. But she wouldn't have done that if I was in her head all the time pissing her off even more. My W obviously went back and forth several times which just goes to show you why we say believe nothing they say b/c it changes one minute to the next.
Ease your mind ovr. Try to enjoy the free time. Keep PMA.
TIme, patience, no anxieties.
When are you both starting MC?
Hi Ovrrnbw, it's great to see your update! I'm so glad you and your wife are hanging in there together. It seems you made it past the crisis point and not only are you stronger and wiser but you're still married and together with your wife. That's a major achievement! I hope the 4th with your dad goes as well as possible. Sometimes you simply need to tolerate the other person's presence and persevere. Sometimes not engaging much and just keeping things superficial is the best you can do.
ovr, what is the latest in your sitch?
Things are chugging along fine with the W. She is actually becoming more patient and understand overall. Of course she has a lot of experience built up that still leads her into conflict with me and that's where I am trying to be understanding. I get ILY's and happy texts, she's cooking more and helping more. I need to get out and GAL more. I have a longer winded post about some personal life stuff too that I'll post later today most likely.
Sounds like you are re-attracting her. Youve pulled out the thorn which was causing irritation...well done!
Hello friends,
Over, curious if your W ever told you why she chose to end the A? Was it because she likes your 180s? Felt loss from you letting her go and moving on? Did the OM stop pursuing her? Your actions or something else?
No. I didn't really ask. She said she just really loved me. Her and I had a lot of passion in the beginning of our R that carried us a long way and things really regressed from there over the years. I don't think the OM stopped. My actions were just simple and hard LRT. No pursuit. If you do that for several months it changes things. When she started pursuing me but flip flopping it made things hard on me and I went no contact. That means I wouldn't answer or return a call or text from her. I intentionally would not come home so I couldn't see her. I stayed out all night a couple of times with a friend. Or, on the rare occassion my W was home, I'd come home late like 10:30 or 11 PM and go straight to bed. Then I'd wake up early and get on out the door. But every time she came back I had a hard time being strong. That was my struggle the whole time and even today in ways.
Hi Ovrrnbw, it's great to see your update! I'm so glad you and your wife are hanging in there together. It seems you made it past the crisis point and not only are you stronger and wiser but you're still married and together with your wife. That's a major achievement! I hope the 4th with your dad goes as well as possible. Sometimes you simply need to tolerate the other person's presence and persevere. Sometimes not engaging much and just keeping things superficial is the best you can do.
Hi Nicole, thanks for checking in on me! I am at a breaking point with dad.
When are you both starting MC?
I have no plans of asking her about this. We are making repairs and learning new things on our own. I am just not going to ask about it b/c I think it is too formal, too something that I can't describe.
The big thing going on is with my relationship with my dad. We like to go to the lake a lot. My family and my W's family. And both families have houses there. My Dad and I co-own a boat from 7 years ago. We used to co-own and co-pay for it with my brother. Everyone sent their part of the payment to my dad. About 5 years ago, my brother decided, without group approval, that he wasn't going to pay for the boat anymore. My dad hid it from me for 6 months or so. My dad then went on to allow my brother to use the boat whenever he wanted over the years, usually 2 or 3 times a year when I wasn't at the lake. I always got pissed at my dad about this. My dad always tried to find a way to justify it. This has been a big deal for a long time.
Back in July, we were hanging with my Dad. My Dad asks about helping my sister move on the first weekend in August. Since we would have to stay home for parties the 2 prior weekends, I ask him to ask her about doing it on a weeknight as she doesn't have much to move or far to go, she is 25 and just starting out. A couple weeks later my dad asks me if I can help him on the Saturday again. I ask him if he asked about a weeknight. He replies "can't I just give up one Saturday in my life"?. I just reiterated that it wouldn't take long and I wanted to go to the lake. Well the week of her move he drops into my office unannounced to TELL me that my brother will be going to the lake and using the boat. I'm like WTF.
Backstory on my brother: we had a fight about 5 years ago. He left me at the lake, 2.5 hours away from home b/c he thought I owed him $10. I moved out of his house, he said I owed him $200 b/c I left my car there for a week or two after I moved out. We had no written rental agreement. My brother threatened to shut my phone off b/c we were on a family plan. Then he shut the phone off. I then got my own service. He got a cancellation fee and expected me to pay it or rejoin the family plan. I refused. My FIL repaired his roof for an insurance claim during all this, as he had agreed prior. My brother banked over $5,000 b/c he got a special deal from my FIL. My W and I were just dating at this time. And ever since then my brother has been avoiding me. There's more to that story but that's enough for now.
So back to my dad, he and I refi'd the boat last winter to take my brother off. My dad came to schmooze me and tell me how it was going to be. I finally had enough. I ask him if he respects me and sees me as an equal partner. He wouldn't answer. I asked again, no answer. Finally, I told him that I was an equal partner and he needed to treat me as such. I told him that I don't approve of my brother using the boat. My brother, besides being an ahole, is an ex partner who got out the wrong way and wants to cake eat on the boat 2 or 3 times a year. My dad doesn't see my brother much either, so he's always trying to manipulate him back into his life. And my dad was trying to manipulate my sister's move to avoid everything.
So I got down to the lake the first weekend in August and the boat was gone. My brother and his GF had taken it and docked it at a condo dock for a few nights. I was pissed. My brother's gf knows my brother is not an owner or payor on the boat and should not be on it. I messaged her to let her now that I was going to look for the boat and pull it out of the water and put it on the trailer if I found it. But I didn't, and my brother and his GF got to use the boat while I did not. I had a huge fight with my dad. Then we went to my in laws lake house and tried to make the best of the weekend. On Sunday, I went to my dad's lake house, hooked up the trailer and pulled out my boat. I put it in storage for the time being. I'm pretty pissed at my dad. I have blocked his phone. My dad showed up to my office on the following Monday demanding to talk. I wouldn't let him in, so he threatened my W. W doesn't report her nanny income and gets paid cash so he made an insinuation about the IRS. I haven't talked to him yet. But my plan is to buy or sell the boat and not speak to my dad any more. I'm ready to jump off the roller coaster he is always going to keep me on.
I know this was a ton and I know it may not all make perfect sense, sorry everyone.
Well, my W and I met my Dad last week after a couple weeks of NC with him. He started out trying to be nice but ultimately it turned ugly quite quickly. I have been using DB techniques with him. He got to threatening and getting upset that I wouldn't do what he wanted with the boat. He walked away from the meeting, but then called to say he would sell out. Great. Once we finalize the boat sale I don't plan on speaking to my dad anymore. I'm not saying never, but it always leads to the same thing.
Things with the W have been OK. I still have many bad habits that pop up every week. A key for me is to be open, to fight my feelings to hide things or to be snappy or to correct my W's speech, cooking, whatever...And I'm still in IC every week to work on that.
W and I made some friends in our neighborhood and we hung out with them on Sat and Sunday, so that was cool. Other than that I am just trying to be a good me.
Hey everyone. Things have been slow on the forums and I decided to update my thread. It's been a strange day. Right be sick or tired and I'm sitting in the garage with the TV on. Needed some fresh air after feeling hot and cold at the office all day.
My life is just buzzing along. Ive been in IC weekly. My SIL got married the weekend before last. I was anticipating the event with some dread. A couple weeks before that i mentioned to W that not wearing rings bothers me. W mentioned "getting married again", and I asked if she meant renewing vows. She said yes. W brought up wearing rings on the SIL wedding weekend. I got mad at first but eventually said I don't want to put them on unless they're staying on. And then she took it off again Monday. I carried a lot of anger last week and it showed. W and I argued more than any week in the last 6 months.
Anyways I've let that go (at least partially), but it's almost just easier to go back to not wearing the rings or thinking about it. Easy...not the best word when it comes to this. Well the wedding went OK until it didn't. I was drunk for a little bit but laid off and sobered up. W was blacked out. There was a couple times where she was talking to some guy and I took it the wrong way. It may have been nothing and it may have been wrong, I don't know. But later that night I decided to not walk to the gas station with her bc I was angry about her talking to this guy. She yelled at me during dinner and it was BS. Then she got back to the hotel and said F Over. So I went to bed. W doesn't remember much of this if any. But I had to get this paragraph off my chest.
Overall, I've been doing well with staying even keeled and not letting things bother me so much. For me, doing well means I'm only halfway to where I want to be. Some small things still bother me.
I haven't spoken to my dad in almost a couple months now. That R is a weird one and I don't know what to do there.
I created an acronym for myself to remind myself to Practice a new way of living, be Patient, and to Listen.
My dog is now 15 months old, American black lab for those who don't know. She is small, about 50 lbs and I like that she is super fast and think as a feather. She retrieved her first birds in September, some blue winged teal on a marsh north of St Charles. It was awesome to see her finally get the real deal and watch all of our training come to life in the field. Our weather finally broke about 1.5 weeks ago, so now we have cool weather. We still saw tons of different migrating birds in September and that is beautiful in itself.
I've been reading some of the old threads between Breakdown and Mach1. I know I still harbor a lot of pain and anger over...something. Not just my W. I carried these with me from well before my marriage. I always enjoy Machs way of questioning people that really makes you think. So now I'm really thinking, really doing, and really trying to figure myself out here. I wish it was just easy. Oh well. I'm ready for a vacation, somewhere warm with lots of animals and pretty country and water. I'm rambling now. Hope you all are healing, growing, and learning. Thanks for lending an ear, this place has changed my life.
Hey there friend,
Glad you are still updating. Sounds like you are in a hard spot. Its hard to rally momentum when things fall into the lull of a regular pattern, and its not bad but its not particularly good either. Do you ever follow Esther Perel? She has a lot of great materials on marriage and is the expert on infidelity. You can even find gold nuggets on YouTube. She currently has a web course to rebuild intimacy. She believes that most of us will have several Ms in our lifetime and for some of us it will be with the same person. It sounds like you and your W need to figure out how to build this next relationship together. I think in order to do that, there may need to be some remorse and atonement for past actions. Have you said this to her? Because you cant go forward if you are building resentment for past hurts.
Blu
Hey ovr-
Weddings are tough. Sorry to hear it wasn't a great experience, but know you're not alone in that department. A month ago W and I went separately to a wedding (but rode in the same car, her sister's) - weirdest experience of my life. We had been invited last year as a couple. Sat at the same table with all married couples, but separated on either side of mutual couple/friends.
It was sort of like straddling the boundary between time and space, where some things were normal, and then they would go absolutely haywire bonkers. I did my best to enjoy myself and ignore the awkwardness as much as I could, but I found myself paying attention to what W was doing several times. I stopped myself when I thought of it, but the more drinks you have, the easier it is to fall into old habits.
Maneuvering through these events is not easy, but you got through it. Give yourself a break and keep on trucking
Stay strong
Ovr,
It's official - I just finished reading your entire thread from start to finish (took me 5 days)! Wow you have been through so much in the last year. As someone that is new around here it was very interesting to see your sitch from start to current. You have made some serious progress in your personal growth and regardless of anything that happens with your R it has benefited you. I can tell that you are continuing to push yourself to be a better version - kudos! I'm really happy for you that it seems like recon is possible with your waw. Obviously there is still a ton to work through but it looks like it's moving forward (not stuck).
Did your w help to comfort and support you through this recent issue with your dad? I wondered if her support through these last few (tough) months with him possibly brought you both together in a different way. Having a common enemy sort of thing and bonding over the frustration and distain of that situation.
Thanks for some of the comments on my thread as I am new to DBing and just trying to learn the basics.
Guys, thank you for responding! I'm just in a weird spot right now. I'll check out Esther Perel. I certainly have a thing for people with funky names!
She believes that most of us will have several Ms in our lifetime and for some of us it will be with the same person. It sounds like you and your W need to figure out how to build this next relationship together. I think in order to do that, there may need to be some remorse and atonement for past actions. Have you said this to her? Because you cant go forward if you are building resentment for past hurts.
I have not. I know the resentment thing is a big deal for me. I shoved a lot down over the years and I think that was not good in the long run. But I see some wisdom in the several M's, because people change and your R dynamic changes... it's something to think about and read about certainly.
IronWill, yes it was not bad overall. Sorry to hear you had to go through something similar!
Kristin, I can't believe you read that whole thing! Thank you! Blu read it all last year (or at least early this year) too. It's a mess. I'm scared to go back and relive those moments and feel my weaknesses and fears again.
My W has been a fervent supporter of mine when "stuff" hits the fan, whether it was with my dad or brother. She did support me a lot recently. She also did that last December at a wedding, even though she had just come home to work on things and ran back to OM, she was very much sticking up for me in front of people when they were asking what happened to me and my brother (I'm an identical twin FYI). It's very strange in my opinion.
I'm glad I can help you out a little. I just think you are hurting, I've been there, but that you really are stronger and better than you know.
I'm just over hear trying to figure who and what I am, without overthinking it and driving myself nuts.
Hey all,
just wanted to update my thread, I had a major moment last night in an R talk with my W and unloaded a 7 year lie I had been hanging on to. I even lied here about it.
W and I were having a nice little ride home from a weekend vacation and she was sending pics from my phone to her phone. When the timeline got back to spring when she was still seeing OM I was getting very nervous and told her to give me my phone. She asked why and I BS'd her. She knew because of the timeline. It led to her bringing up an incident from the first year we dated. I skipped out on her mom's bday one evening back in 2012 and met up with an ex and cheated on my W, who was my then GF. My now FIL (father in law) called my dad that evening, as FIL was doing some work for my dad's property. I lied and told my W (GF at the time) that I was helping my dad with something. My dad and FIL figured out this lie and when my W asked me about it I lied. We fought about it pretty good back in 2012 and it caused a lot of conflict.
So back to last night. I have been learning and growing in the last 1.5 years, and I'm trying to be honest and forthcoming and compassionate. So I tell W that she is right, I wanted my phone back so she wouldn't see any pictures of screenshots I took of her phone, or images of W and OM that I took as proof. Then W asks about 2012 and where I was that night. Frankly, I was sick of lying about it. I don't even remember what lie I told back then. So I began to prepare myself to tell her the truth. We arrive at home and sit down. We talk, and I tiptoed at first, and ultimately told my W that I went to see my ex GF back then and cheated on her. This is a source of pain for my W. I lied to her and basically made her feel crazy because my story from cheating on her was sketchy. We talked for 2 hours straight. W was hurt, relieved, and quite confused. She kissed me, hugged me, asked about having sex last night and we proceeded to accomplish some household taks.
W also talked about her affair and explained her mindset of loving me, but being so worn out that she didn't want to try anymore. She also spoke about why she would want to come back and then be scared to be back and then leave again. Classic WAS mindset for those who have read the WAS perspective. I think AnotherStander had linked something before and it was an interesting read for me.
W also woke up in the middle of the night upset, and woke me up to talk about it more. She was hurt, confused, and wanting more info. So I gave it to her. I was scared that telling her that I cheated would make her leave me. I was able to finally tell her the truth though. It was hard, I was very scared. I didn't sleep much last night. My head, eyes, and throat hurt. My stomach too. But W is still here. She is doing stuff with me and kissing and hugging me.. I'm still worried but I'm trying to focus on the positives and thinking about what I can do to continue growing. Now, I've come clean to you guys. My sister may read this soon and know about this. That's scary too. I want to be good in the worst way. I'm really tired of creating chaos and living in my own personal hell. I am working to make this another step forward for me. Thank you all for being there for me at my hardest times.
That sounds really difficult and kudos to you for pushing through and coming clean. It is amazing how the body can hold onto all this trauma and how the pain comes through physically. Hope you can get some sleep tonight and forgive yourself.
You are becoming the best version of yourself-- honest, forthcoming, compassionate-- and as hard as that was to open up about a lie you've been holding onto for so many years, I'm sure it was really helpful for her to finally understand what happened. You gave her the gift of honesty and as difficult as that was for her to hear it sounds like she appreciates it and the new you that was willing to get through the pain and fear to be honest about it with her. Good for you.
Ovr, that took some courage to come clean about your exGF. Im sure that was a weight of your chest and a relief that W didnt take it too hard. I think many LBH have skeletons in the closet that we are holding on to. For me, I think that contributed to why I cut my WW slack for so long with her As. I felt a sense of guilt that I was no better than her with some of my past choices.
However, I believe there is a distinct difference when dealing with a WW. I recognized the damage that could be inflicted to my life, marriage, and family if I were to act upon temptations. I couldnt bring myself to jeopardize that or hurt my W in that way. The WW sees the pain and suffering the LBH is going through, yet they choose to continue and submit to their selfish desires. Having been cheated on and knowing how that feels, I could never put my partner through that especially when the A has been exposed and the LBH knows what is going on.
I think you did the right thing. A MR rebuilt on honesty shows the values you intend to follow going forward.
Ovr,
Good for you for being so open and vulnerable. That must have been really hard for you considering everything you have been through. This is going to sound odd, but maybe this will bring you and you ww some healing and forgiveness. It seems as though she was almost relieved that you, too, are human and capable of making mistakes. I am sure that your w is still suffering from guilt and feelings of remorse and I hope this brings her some forgiveness within herself.
I went through a similar situation before my ww and I even began dating. I had just gotten out of a long term relationship and was actually engaged to my ex. I was honest and clear with ww that we were not monogamous and that I would not commit to a relationship with her until I was ready. My ex and I spent some time together and I was still very confused on my feelings. I was honest with w (dating at the time) about spending time with ex. Eventually, my w did ask me to be her girlfriend and I committed to a relationship (I was ready). Several months into our committed relationship, she asked me if anything had ever happened with ex during that time we were dating each other and not committed. I was honest and explained that, yes, we kissed twice. She was upset and hurt for quite a while - even though we were not monogamous when it happened! It still blows my mind that as much angst that it caused her, years later, she would step out on our MR and engage in a full blown affair.
All of this just goes to prove that even good people can make mistakes. We are all flawed. I'm glad that it seems like your wife seems to be much more interactive and respectful with you. Wishing you both mutual understanding and love.
Kristin
Wow Ovr, that's a really courageous thing to talk about and even moreso you opened up to your W about it. I admire that.
Can anyone take us to the WAS mindset link from Another Stander that Ovr refers to above please? I couldnt find it. Ta
Ovr,
I appreciate your openness and honesty. It takes courage and strength. I think it is more than a lot of us are able to share here .... Hope all is well with you. I am glad you still update and advise others. You offer a very balanced and open-minded perspective.
Best,
Blu
I've always been of the thought that my recon was a tentative one. Lately I've questioned myself a lot, and whether I have the skills needed to make a meaningful change in the way I act. I've tried to step out there and do things I didn't want to do, but that I thought would be good for my marriage.
I don't want to type my traditional long winded post. W's parents are pretty well off, and her dad runs a bunch of older trucks for plowing snow. I have told them for a while that I don't want to plow snow anymore. I got sucked into last year for one day, but it was 21 hours straight in the car. It [censored]. I screwed up something for the inlaws on Friday. I am an insurance agent and there was a problem yesterday getting insurance on their plow trucks, which I did not forsee.
Now the snow is here and they need me to plow and I really don't want to. Argument ensues, W takes her parents' side, and she wants a divorce again. I'm upset. I'm wondering how much a person can really love you and honor their commitment when this is "all it takes". But I know this seems like a much bigger deal to W. When I didn't spring to my feet to help her, there wasn't much I could do to recover in her mind/heart.
I was in a bad spot emotionally throughout this talk with the W. She reminds me how her dad has offered a lot of help (free or discounted) to us over the years when building houses, working on the barn we are currently building.
Now I have to talk to the inlaws further in regards to the insurance stuff I messed up for them on these plow trucks, and I probably owe it to them to go plow snow. This should make for a fun day. Guess I need to go back to basics.
Thanks for reading, I hope I can get some support here.
I am so sorry that things went south the other day on the insurance. Go over there and advise them of the insurance issue and look them in the eye and be yourself. They will either get mad or be understanding, but at least you would have told them in person.
As for plowing snow, I would also discuss this w/them and tell they you do not want to do it this year. Give them a valid reason as to why you don't and then leave it w/them to figure things out. Yes, they've helped you out in the past and you've done the same w/them. No says that you need to "owe" them your time off from your regular job.
Your w will use any means to control your situation. She is now most likely using the plowing as an excuse for divorce. Don't give her that power. She's looking for any excuse to scream divorce and no matter how much you do for her and the inlaws, it will never be enough in your wife's eyes. Holding a threat of divorce over your head is her way of controlling you. Take back your power!
There comes a time that you need to take care of you and do the things that you want to do in life. I think that if you are honest w/the inlaws about the plowing, they will understand. They may get miffed about it, but they will get over it at some point.
Thanks for responding Job. That was a tough hour or so for me. I had a couple ups and downs emotionally that day, but I have become adept at handling those now and I know how to pull out of the nosedives.
I was driving to work this morning, through the winding woods from my semi rural subdivision into the suburbs where I have my office. It's unseasonably warm, we had Christmas dinner on the patio last night. I am thinking to myself, should I talk to my W about her threatening divorce a couple weeks ago? I have lots of thoughts like this, where I am looking to her for the answer, hoping it will be one that I want to hear. It hit me this morning that there is just no sense in worrying about that. My time and my mind is better spent deciding for myself how to think, feel, and act about all of these issues.
I love her still, but our love is not the same. I'm not 100% comfortable with all the thing I used to love to do like act goofy, call her pet names, or tell her my deepest fears. But I'm actually telling myself every day that I'm going to do the right thing in every situation. I'm not going to say sorry as part of my daily routine (thanks Hoosjim), and I won't need to either. Anyways, what I realized this morning is that it doesn't matter what she says for the most part, I can carve my own path here. I'm going to do that and let the chips fall where they may.
She's looking for any excuse to scream divorce and no matter how much you do for her and the inlaws, it will never be enough in your wife's eyes.
Now I'm not sure that she is looking for any excuse to scream divorce, this is the first time it's been mentioned since March and this is not a serious mention IMO. I do agree that no matter what we do for the in laws that it will never be enough in W's eyes. I agree in empowering myself as well. I'm thinking I'll tell the FIL just one on one that I can't do it, I have my own business to look after and to leave me and my W out of it. That will be the hardest part for the inlaws, not telling my W that. But hey, let the chips fall where the will and all that.
On another note, W has been talking about having kids. Obviously I gave her a WTF look after her divorce threat. Then she brought it up a few more times and I just told her I don't think we are ready, it would be at least a year or two. She didn't like it. The truth hurts sometimes.
Everyone who went through a tough Christmas - it gets better. It gets a lot better when you decide you are ready for it to get better. Attitude, thoughts, actions, feelings. Thanks for all the support everyone.
(((Ovr)))
What impresses me the most about your sitch -- and you know I went back and read every post -- is YOU and how much YOU have grown. I know that we often measure success on if the S comes back, and how the M is being restored, etc, etc. I still firmly believe that successful DBing is less about saving the M and more about saving our self. You are a person that has done a lot of self reflection and self growth. I can tell in your writings -- not just here, but also to other people. You have a very good understanding of boundaries, communication, patience and what to let go of.
Maybe I have said this to you before, if not, I have certainly thought it; I am more concerned for her than for you. I don't see that she has owned her own cr-p in the same way that you have. She hasn't demonstrated (or you have wrote about it) an ability to look inward, admit her wrong doings, and then commit to how she can make amends and change. She also has these stubborn knee jerk reactions, and while that can be normal for anyone, she has this way of putting you down or treating you as if you are less than. I worry she doesn't respect you.
I can see some of my previous self in her. When my H came back, I was quite nasty to him on/off for years. It came out in my moments of frustration. He would ask me "do you even like me?" or "do you even respect me?" And I hated that. I hated it because he had a point. I was still bitter. .... There was nothing he could do to help me through that. He sort of DBs by nature and has continued on over the last 5 years trying his best. .... I have had to self reflect and sort out my own mess and it hasn't been easy.
My fear for her is that if she doesn't start making some changes, you will grow tired of this. You have been patient and forgiving. You are owning your mistakes. She will have to do the same for this to work out in the long run. I hope she can. .... I am soooo glad you are waiting on having kids. For most couples, having kids is when everything becomes a challenge!
Happy holidays~
Blu
Ovr,
That's some heavy convos to have with the inlaws. You can do it. Job is absolutely right. You have your own business and stuff to take care of, and if you don't want to plow, it is OK to say no. Let the chips fall where they may. I hope you and W had a good Christmas together and I hope that she starts to let down some walls and re-establish intimacy. It seems like from your recent update that you both have some walls up and are scared to connect on a deep, emotional level. You're working on your own issues, but I truly hope that she begins to dig deep and do the same. Happy Holidays!
KG
R2C,
please start a new quote thread.
I wanted to add one.
Thanks,
Hello all,
I can't believe I haven't updated my thread in this long. I made it through my BD anniversary with little fanfare this year and I've been on DB forums for almost 2 years now. I wonder if I should move my thread out of newcomers. I'm still going to IC weekly, though we meet virtually as of late. I hired my first employee in January, and she quit a month later (she said I didn't pay quickly enough - roughly 5 days after end of pay period - but I wonder if she didn't get a better job or decided not to work as she was pregnant). W was baby crazy back in January and February. I told her I would need at least another year before I'd be ready.
My impetus to post tonight is another argument with my W. I've been in a rut of bad behavior since her birthday in early March. Not horrible, just less than good. She's more critical than she was years ago. I don't trust her perspective of what I'm doing. I've been asking her for help and not getting it. I'm not allowed to get mad, she has an explanation and everything I am upset about is either me being too emotional or I've forgotten something. I know I can be emotional. I have plenty of stuff going on in my life, I know I forget things. But I am at this strange point where every time she forgets something, I want to rub her face in it.
Anyways, after seeing a cool video linked by R2C I found a book called The Inner Citadel by Pierre Hadot. It is a study of Marcus Aurelius and stoicsim and I enjoy it and the history. The "ancients" who were philosophers were much more determined to live their philosophy than to talk about it. That's my goal too. But here I am looking for outside perspective on where to go and how to proceed.
My BIL and SIL have been staying with us, 1 week at the end of March, and now again since last Monday. They live in Chicago and decided it would be better here...I am tired of them being here but things aren't real bad or anything and it is a little change of pace so there's some good to it as well.
A couple weeks ago I asked my W to come to my office because I had some work she could help me catch up on. She declined as her sister was in town. I told her this even today, that I ask for help and don't get it but you ask for help and it's a must. She is always asking about me sleeping in or going to work late and giving me trouble over this. It gets tiring hearing this every week. Our barn wedding venue is coming along, should be finished with construction in the next couple of weeks. My W has no problems asking me for helping on this - it is our thing but she is leading the charge. Obviously this frustrates me as she can ask for help but not reciprocate. Just tonight, she was helping me with dinner but told me she had to stop helping so she could text her softball girls and line up lessons for tomorrow. Within 5 minutes she was talking about facebook and instagram stuff and I'm like what the hell.
We make it through dinner fine and I hear the instant pot is still on so I go to turn it off. I grab some candy and W wants ice cream. I don't want to give her ice cream so I started cleaning up the kitchen and headed to the bathroom after. I can hear my W fuming about me stomping my feet. This leads to our argument a little later. I told myself going into the talk that this isn't the end of the world, yet she ramped up the volume, tone, and language and there we were with me the bad guy. She says I can't see it, I'm being out of line. I know I have a bias here but I'm trying to be cool. I walked out of the room after a while to go workout in the basement, as our conversation was going nowhere.
So here we are, another book by your (hopefully) good friend Overtherainbow. I chose that name bc I thought I'd only find my marriage somewhere over the rainbow but MWD and you guys and gals here have really helped me out. I thank everyone for contributing. I consider leaving this whole R behind a lot lately. Of course, I vowed forever, so this is not under serious consideration. But things just aren't great right now in my R. They're great with business, I'm hoping that keeps going. I miss the gym. I've been going 3-5 times per week for over 20 years now. My dog is great. She is 1.5 years old and really started to figure out this bird hunting game as the fall and winter passed. I'm hoping to get some outside advice and perspective here and reset myself mentally and retool into the PMA, detached, thoughtful person.
OB,
Sounds like shes a taker and has lack of respect for you. As long as you have the death til we part attitude Im not sure there is anything you can do about it.
OB, Im sorry you are going through this this. I have to say your updates look exactly the same every time you do update. She expects everything of you and she wants to give you nothing and you are resentful
I know you say you took these vows and want to honor them, but I dont know that she is. Its very one sided for her.
And let me warn you of this..... everything you experience with her now will blow up 1000x when you have kids. And do you want to bring kids into this? A baby will absolutely not fix your situation and quite honestly will
Make it worse .
My BIL and SIL have been staying with us, 1 week at the end of March, and now again since last Monday. They live in Chicago and decided it would be better here...I am tired of them being here but things aren't real bad or anything and it is a little change of pace so there's some good to it as well.
Ovr, sorry to hear your W is not being an equal partner right now. If I had relatives staying with me that long I think my stress level would be through the roof. Perhaps your W is taking out some frustration of having the house guests around on you.
You have been on the right track for some time now and occasionally intent and commitment to making it work is called into question on both your parts. Keep up the good work taking care of yourself and showing her your love. She will continue to feel that over time and hopefully reciprocate.
I walked out of the room after a while to go workout in the basement, as our conversation was going nowhere.
I miss the gym. I've been going 3-5 times per week for over 20 years now.
Good to hear youre still able to get some exercise. I setup a bench and adjustable weight dumbbell set in the garage a month ago when the gym closed. Options are quite limited, but its better than nothing. My brother is a state champion heavyweight bodybuilder and he was freaking out when the virus closed his gym. Fortunately hes in good with the owner and they open it for him so he and a few others can continue training privately.
Hey ovr -
Sorry to hear that things aren't going so great with the R right now. I think it's easy to forget that we're all dealing with an unprecedented situation worldwide. So that's probably not helping matters, either.
It sounds like you have some built up resentment from what happened before. Probably something you may want to think about processing with someone other than W - I forget if you mentioned if you are in IC or not. Letting those resentments build up is not going to be very good for the future of your R - these little daily chips and dings can blow up over the tiniest things sometimes.
Glad to hear your business is going good - you are fortunate there. I wish I could get back to work here, hopefully this mess will calm down soon and I can leave the house to look for work again.
Hang in there - stay strong
Hey ovr...nothing has changed much, right?
Help yourself first. Do help yourself. Get some IC advice.
It all falls into the time-space reality haze. Add that time we are actually living are mostly chaotic.
Dont rush into onesided decisions BUT keep self awareness function on.
Be patient. Be honest with yourself: ask yourself what kind of R you want.
Hi OverTheRainbow,
While you haven't updated your own thread, I'm impressed how often you contribute to others situations. I'll try to contribute what you requested--new perspectives and ideas.
W was baby crazy back in January and February. I told her I would need at least another year before I'd be ready.
I applaud you not adding more stress to a vulnerable relationship. With kids, you truly learn how little sleep or work you can get away with! It doesn't help your love life. Imagine a year passes and your relationship is still not satisfying--maybe a D+. What's your expectation? What's her expectation?
I wonder if you could tie her desire for the future to your desire for the future. I bet you'd feel much better about kids if you felt loved, secure, and that you each felt the relationship was balanced.
I'm not allowed to get mad,
Well, yes, stop getting angry! I recall Yoda said something about resentment leading to anger leading to you getting a red light saber and fighting for the Sith. Maybe you could break the chain earlier?
I've forgotten something. I have plenty of stuff going on in my life, I know I forget things. But I am at this strange point where every time she forgets something, I want to rub her face in it. she has an explanation and everything
Hmm. An explanation, both you have? What if you nipped this "forgetting" in the bud? I solved losing my keys with a device called a "Tile" so my Phone always knows where it is (IIRC, you're no stranger to tracking apps), I solved losing my credit cards by getting a slim wallet that attached to my phone, I solved remembering meetings through a combination of Outlook (w/ "Work", "Family", and "Personal" calendars), and I solved remember ToDo list items through apps like ToDoist or RememberTheMilk.
I found a book called The Inner Citadel by Pierre Hadot. It is a study of Marcus Aurelius and stoicsim and I enjoy it and the history.
Ooh. Thanks for the tip! Will check it out.
My BIL and SIL have been staying with us, 1 week at the end of March, and now again since last Monday. They live in Chicago and decided it would be better here...I am tired of them being here but things aren't real bad or anything and it is a little change of pace so there's some good to it as well.
How does your W feel about sharing the house with your in-laws?
She is always asking about me sleeping in or going to work late and giving me trouble over this. It gets tiring hearing this every week.
I don't know your work situation too well, but why does she care if your work hours begin earlier or later? I suspect you want to move away from her "managing" your timeclock. Normally, you only have to worry about your boss or customers' reaction, unless it's affecting your pay or stability. "I choose to start later sometimes, and my boss/customers are okay with that. Why do you sound concerned?" and if it persists "I get you prefer to work earlier, but I don't." and if it persists, "We disagree; I'm asking you to drop the reminders."
I grab some candy and W wants ice cream. I don't want to give her ice cream so I started cleaning up the kitchen and headed to the bathroom after. I can hear my W fuming about me stomping my feet.
Did you decline politely, or ignore her, or stomp your feet? When my son asks me to get something for him, often I do, but sometimes I might not and say, "Your feet have fallen off so you need my help?"
she ramped up the volume, tone, and language and there we were with me the bad guy. She says I can't see it, I'm being out of line. I know I have a bias here but I'm trying to be cool. I walked out of the room after a while to go workout in the basement, as our conversation was going nowhere.
Did you try applying some validation to her feelings? E.g., "You felt I was angry at you, and that's why I wasn't getting the ice cream." Yes! "Wow--that must have hurt."
I consider leaving this whole R behind a lot lately.
I can see why! I'm sure many of the things I said you've already considered, but I hope there's something useful in there. May you have a good day and get to that relationship somewhere over the rainbow. PS - Don't marry the woman with the green skin. Flying pigs > Flying monkeys.
Hey guys, I've been reading and thinking through all of your responses. Thank you.
LH, do you recommend people forsake their vows to accomplish their R goals? Is there no other way? I think about this a lot.
Ginger, the whole recurring theme you mentioned stuck with me last week because it is true. I've got plenty to consider here and of course I am open to hearing more. Also, to be clear, I am nowhere near being ready to have a child and made that clear to hear as well.
Curtis, you're making me remember to get out and GAL more, especially once this covid slows down.
IW, thank you.
Neffer, I need to be putting myself first a little more, not in a selfish way but in a way to get my needs met and be able to put my best foot forward every day.
Cwarrior, I think I should get the tile app and system. I like that a lot. But no, I haven't been focused on validating much. Maybe that's extending arguments. My W and her family are super enmeshed, so having her parents and sister around all the time isn't bad for her. And it's not horrible for me either but I don't want roommates.
OB,
It is my opinion that if you want respect and your needs met you have to be willing to walk away from a relationship when your spouse will not accommodate your requests. Of course you communicate your needs in a loving fashion.
Not sure there is another way.
So just kind of glancing through your stuff and I'm way newer at this than you are but I saw a few things I'd like to mention. Don't ever forget one of the golden rules around here is take what works for you leave what doesn't.
IMO respect/disrespect is a subjective concept. The reaction to the subjective actions of disrespect are also highly variable and subjective. I could look at H right now and call him and a**hole and he'd smile at me and flip me off and I'd flip him off back and we'd laugh. That's how we behaved pre-BD/A. That's how we behave now post A but no where near piecing. If you took that exact behavior and put it in a different relationship that could look entirely different, and not light hearted or funny the way it is in our household. The other part of that belief is almost every WAS/WS on here is/was cheating. That is pretty much the pinnacle of disrespect in a relationship and the second you decided that an affair isn't a deal breaker is the the second you decided disrespect isn't either. So I personally put very little weight in this whole concept of being disrespected. There are more important things to worry about than disrespect namely the things that are more subjective, as subjective as feelings can be I suppose, that cause imbalance in a relationship. Like one person being a giver while the other is a taker. When one person puts kindness first and the other person sees that as weakness. I think those things are far more important than the broad concept of disrespect. To that end the imbalance in the relationship because of those reasons is an imbalance that can't go left unaddressed forever. Even if that means S/D. Moral obligation or not, your vows did not bind you to the indentured servitude of another person for the rest of your life. No one is obligated to be the whipping boy of another person.
People with bad childhoods and/or poor parental child relationships tend to gravitated toward partners who are in
enmeshed families. Doesn't matter how healthy or unhealthy the family is otherwise. It's just a weird little quirk and I hope for your sake that they are an otherwise stable healthy group.
Tensions are high for every one right now. I see a lot of people who are/were in a pretty good place cycling through anger, sadness, and fear when they up until recently had been pretty ok at the very least for others they were nearly zen like and it's starting to crumble. I'm one of those people myself. I'm sure having house guests indefinitely isn't helping. Make sure you're checking your on emotional flare ups and you're not feeding W's poor behavior. As some one said above maybe check in on W's stress levels with all that's going on plus house guests.
The ice cream thing was petty af, and you know it. She knows it. I know it. We all know it now. Lol. But it was just a misstep, and annoyance. One of the many tiffs we all find ourselves in in long term relationships not the Titanic of your relationship. The getting to work thing could be that you're throwing her off on her daily routine. Instead of digging your heels in maybe try to explore what that's about. What throws me though is that W was that histrionic over things that little. She seems to over react to everything, and to me that doesn't really feel like disrespect. That feels like she's looking for holes in the relationship to keep opening them wider, or she has some kind of personality disorder. And just to be clear I'm not trying to arm chair diagnose here. Many many moons ago I was a WW and I most definitely picked fights to blow them up. I did not however ramp up nearly every single interaction we had because dear lord that's exhausting.
Just some food for thought.
Well I have to write this down before I forget and let it go by the wayside. Had a lovely fight this morning. I woke up and it was 8 AM and I told W I need to get to work. I wanted to get to work early to get caught up. She thinks I'm spending too much time at work and that I do it to get away (kinda true - my in laws have been there for over 2 weeks now). It was a decent talk but I really don't do well at bringing up the things that bother me or the things that I want in a positive way. It was an argument about how she does a lot for us and I'm coming back saying the same thing. Obviously I could have just listened and validated any frustrations. Then I took a cheap shot saying that pickup these decorations and going to the stores are just fun for her as part of her shopping obsessions. And she blew up.
I gotta wonder why in the hell I do this...it is so dumb and now I am just spinning like a hurt imbecile who keeps doing the same thing over and over. God what in the hell is wrong with me...it's like the only world I know is chaos and attacks and taking shots. I don't know if I'm cut out for marriage sometimes. I know I'm low right and maybe throwing a pity party. Guess I gotta pull out of this.
On the drive in I was thinking, what if when she said "I hope work isn't like this forever" I gave her a back rub and an ILY and told her I'd come home an hour early. I think the script might be flipped.
Wayfarer, thank you for the post, it really hits home. I have seen your postings to others and your insight is helpful.
People with bad childhoods and/or poor parental child relationships tend to gravitated toward partners who are in
enmeshed families
Where did you read or learn about this? Because this struck me as me and her. Her family is great in many ways but there are some drawbacks of being that close too, not that her family is bothered by them.
I told her this morning that she puts them before me and she said it is because the give her more. I know at least part of the reason they do things is to keep her dependent. For example, she got a speeding ticket in college and thought she had to tell her parents. I helped her to call a $50 traffic lawyer to get it fixed (something not every state does) instead of letting her parents handle it for her.
Like one person being a giver while the other is a taker. When one person puts kindness first and the other person sees that as weakness. I think those things are far more important than the broad concept of disrespect. To that end the imbalance in the relationship because of those reasons is an imbalance that can't go left unaddressed forever. Even if that means S/D. Moral obligation or not, your vows did not bind you to the indentured servitude of another person for the rest of your life.
Yes, this sounds quite familiar as well. But it cuts both ways. She is tired of my shortcomings and so am I. I keep looking to her to do something, which isn't a great idea.
Make sure you're checking your on emotional flare ups and you're not feeding W's poor behavior. As some one said above maybe check in on W's stress levels with all that's going on plus house guests.
What does that mean to you? Do you mean to just say to yourself "OK, what is pissing me off? In laws, messes, dogs. I'm not gonna let that get to me OR I'm gonna say something nicely."?
I did not however ramp up nearly every single interaction we had because dear lord that's exhausting.
It does seems like she's looking to make the holes bigger, but I can do this /\ /\ /\
Also, I am an identical twin and I have that brother competition thing going on to an extreme. But I don't talk to my brother since about 5 years ago (surprise, right?).
As to the fight. There are a few layers there that I want to touch on. In your position, my cheap shot wouldn't have been so pointed at her faults and flaws, the immediate thing that came to mind with me is that you've offered for her to go in with you to help you catch up and she refused. Now it's a problem you're there too much. This isn't to instigate. Just being in that position that would've been the hard thing for me not to throw in her face and I find it interesting that you let that go, but wanted to shove something adjacent but relatively unrelated in her face. Might be something you want to think on.
The second thing as to the fight is when I do bring myself to post on LBHs posts I feel like there's a common theme of what I like to call the the "that b*tch over there eating her crackers" issues. There is a someecards meme that was put out there like a million years ago about how when you don't like someone everything they do annoys you to the point where when they are just sitting there minding their own business eating lunch all you can process is "look at that b*tch over there eating her crackers." There's something about LBHs where they don't know how to seperate the feelings of being annoyed and frustrated from a person actually instigating a fight with them. You seem quite a bit more self aware. You knew it, but couldn't stop yourself in the moment. Choosing to escalate is never the right choice even if it feels like it. I know sometimes it's unavoidable. We're all imperfect. We're all works in progress. But that should be the goal. Even if you can't validate, if you can't be kind and receptive, which are the ultimate goals obviously, just trying your best to not to escalate is the best you can do in those situations. When these things blow up you both leave feeling like garbage. And it makes finding your footing together again harder and harder every time. On top of that not being in control of your actions and reactions just makes everything harder for you.
The enmeshed family thing has come up for me and my bff in our process of therapy. Both of us had traumatic childhoods. We both pick partners painfully enmeshed in their families. We've had very different therapy journeys with different practitioners and we've both been told that on more than one occasion.
So I'm ridiculously self aware. Some times painfully so. I was an only child until 13 so I live in my head a lot. I've always taken the time to mull over my feelings again and again and again until I can understand it, find the root, and let it go. So for you I see you can see all the choices you could've/should've/would've done this morning on your drive. Maybe take some of that time to figure out what's wrong, or what's really wrong. And if the solution feels like oh this is on me, I'm being a crazy pants/overly emotional/ etc. you can let it go or apologize what ever you feel is right. If you explore it and you see that it's really and interpersonal thing and it's a conversation that needs to be had, mull over it a little longer and find the best way you can possibly say it.
I have a bad temper. Little patience. I bristle when people can't see things as clearly as I can see them. Taking the time to not speak. To walk away. To process what I'm feeling and why, and then practice that conversation over and over again before I actually do it has made things for me better with H and better with other people. I would eat the anger anyway. It's nice to eat it with a more productive result in the end, instead of a huge blow up. The conversations rarely go the way I anticipate, but knowing what's important for me to get out there helps me be a better active listener and better at validating, because I can keep my mouth shut until I feel I have to say what I want to say.
Hi guys,
it's been some time since I updated my own thread. W & I are done with construction on our next business venture. We built a 5,000 sq ft barn wedding venue and have been going since April. 80 hour weeks started in early August and things were intense. Luckily I hired a great person in June to help at my office (I have an insurance agency as some of you know and we have built and sold a couple spec houses) and that made it easier for me to work on the barn so much. Now it's back to being an insurance agent most of the time.
W & I had ups and downs, but have had a couple periods now where we are really hitting our stride, looking out for each other, and things are going well. We did have our share of fights including with her family, but I do think that W, her family, and I are doing well and I think that shows up in our actions. I'm also trying to stop being such a puss with my own family. I don't have the relationship I want with my brother (we don't talk), my sister (distant since we have political disagreements), my father (has issues), and my mother (too distant). I'm taking action here to make these relationships what I want them to be. It's been easy for me to just kick the can down the road but I'm not doing that anymore.
I started journaling a couple weeks ago. I credit R2C for turning me on to the stoics and that was something they suggested. Then I heard Matthew McCoughney on Joe Rogan say how he has journaled for 37 years. So I started. It's been good. I'm focused on the things I want in life. I'm doing what I need to do be better. I posted in Indy's thread that I "stood" and didn't file for divorce but still tried moving on nonetheless. I don't know how to reconcile that - how to honor your vows but still protect yourself and have a radical acceptance of the situation. But I do know that I will get to write the end to my story. In my journal, I made a new vow: to file if an OM ever shows up again. The way things are going it's not like I have even the slightest suspicion, but I made this vow because I know I'm strong enough to handle it and that I'll never be weak enough again to accept this. I am trying to appreciate myself, without sounding arrogant, so writing that down helped move me forward.
I am still going to IC, every other week now. I'm making progress there, trying to set goals and stick to them. I'm very much a discipline guy in other facets of life, so it only makes sense to carry that over. I don't think I really need it, but I want to keep improving and this is beneficial to me. One of my new goals is to be accepting of other people's political views and stop all the hateful crap in my country. I think the media (right and left) love stirring the pot and it is in their business interests to do so. Hopefully you guys will think about this as well. I'm going to read the 3% Man that LH is always recommending soon. Looking forward to that. I read The Inner Citadel over the summer and am reading An Intro to the Devout Life right now. The author has a very interesting background and perspective.
Snow season is coming up and I've decided to be there if my FIL needs me. He put in as many hours as I did on the venue and between the dirt work, land clearing, backhoe work, business advice, and carpentry the value was over $100,000. Now I do believe that he is doing that for his daughter first, but I benefit from it without a doubt. I'm thankful for all of his help. It is the biggest gift I have ever received. I think I can pay that back with a few days of snowplowing. I was able to help him acquire some money through the small business programs in the CARES act. So that was good, but it's not like we're even close. So I'm going to keep a PMA and give back.
Thank you all for sticking with me and helping me. This has been an amazing place for me.
Another book from Over! Hope I'm not boring anyone to death!
Ovr!!
It's good to see you update on here. I've been hoping more people who are trudging through reconciling and piecing would pop up a little more. It sounds like you're doing really, really well. A lot of work on you. A lot of work in general based on the venue situation. Things sound incredibly positive and that's so, so wonderful to hear.
I was giving some thought to your vow to yourself. That you'll never be so weak again as to accept that behavior. Buddy, you're looking at this all wrong. Keep that vow to yourself. You deserve that vow. We all deserve that vow. But you don't need to make it because you were "weak" the first time around. You weren't weak at all. You made a decision to stand. You stood and thus far the gamble has paid off. Wanting your marriage to succeed and being willing to give it you're all doesn't make you weak at all. It makes you stronger than most. You tried when most people would've quit. You dug down deep and worked on yourself while giving your spouse the room to make a mistake and realize her errors. All in the name of your MR. You were willing to fiercely protect your marriage even when you're spouse wouldn't. But...you're right. This is one a time deal. As it should be for all of us. Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me. Choosing this path isn't for the faint of heart. Reconciling and piecing are heavy lifting. Don't dismiss that. Self preservation is important. So important. But you can't look at this as if you were pathetic to be exactly where you stand now. That negates literally all the work you've done with you and your marriage. It also throws away the journey you've been on. You will never allow yourself to not be a person of value in a relationship ever again. Not you'll never be so weak to accept that behavior.
As far as your FOO stuff. Relationships take 2 people. Don't forget that. There's a reason you've stayed out of the fray. Offer up what you like to see happen, but expect nothing. Expectations on relationships like this are no different than expectations with a WAS/WS. You will set your self up for failure. You know you want more. Say you want more, ask how you can have that. That needs to be a dialogue. If there's no dialogue, leave the door open and call it a day. Wanting things to be better with FOO is almost more complex than in a MR mostly because it ends up becoming a team sport and some times you're not sure what team has which players on it. I'd really talk though a lot of this with IC if you're ready to broach this.
Lastly, politically. I will leave you with this. Bridging the gap. That comes from a place of love and understanding. You can't just say you don't want to perpetuate the hate and division. You have to open minded, kind, and willing to accept people's beliefs are built around their life experience. No two people synthesize information the same way.
ovr, I am a big fan of journaling! However, I think you have to be careful. I prefer electronically journaling in a secure way. Journaling should not ever be for anyone else's eyes. You have to be extremely honest and open with yourself for journaling to be effective. You will be writing about fleeting feelings that come and are gone, and you do no need that journaling to be seen by spouses, children, etc.
I highly encourage folks not to journal with pen and paper.....it is just too hard to keep secure.
I was giving some thought to your vow to yourself. That you'll never be so weak again as to accept that behavior. Buddy, you're looking at this all wrong. Keep that vow to yourself. You deserve that vow. We all deserve that vow. But you don't need to make it because you were "weak" the first time around. You weren't weak at all. You made a decision to stand. You stood and thus far the gamble has paid off. Wanting your marriage to succeed and being willing to give it you're all doesn't make you weak at all. It makes you stronger than most.
Thank you. It's funny b/c I knew that 2 years ago and forgot it. That was a reminder I didn't know that I needed.
As for my FOO, my IC has heard an earful about them lol.
Steve, I am writing on paper currently, but I had thought about what you said. Maybe I'll make that change. The journal is titled "For Myself" and yes I don't really want anyone reading until I'm dead.
Great update Ovr. Im with WF on this one... nothing weak about you or how you have stood for your M. You should be really proud of how far you have come...not just in standing for your M but even more so, the things you have been doing to work on yourself. You have truly become AMOAFWL.
WF - Dont want to hijack but what you wrote in your last paragraph to Ovr really resonated with me and is helpful with my own sitch. Thank you for that.
(((HUGS))) to you both.
P.S. The wedding barn sounds amazing Ovr!! Hope CV19 hasnt affected your business too much.
Had a really good talk with my W last week as we were driving down the highway. She came along for a hunting trip like the old days. We discussed my infidelities (when we were dating) and hers. A lot of emotion and caring for each other. I wanted to share with everyone reading something she told me. Part of her seeking an affair, her running back and forth from me to OM, and all the stuff that goes along with this was the fact that she was trying to prove it to herself that she could move on. She was really trying hard. Even once it became "safe" again for her to be with me, she still kept this mindset for months and months.
She was in essence trying to prove a point. She was being emotional. We've all seen someone hellbent on proving a point and we all know, at least a little, how to handle it. But when it is our spouse proving that point in this way, that's harder to handle. I just think it's important to remember this and it shows you why you should detach, not argue, learn to validate, etc. Basically it's why you should DB.
Anyways, W is pregnant and I'm going to be a father next year. I spent many months this year deciding whether or not I wanted to have children with her after our situation. I made my decision. I'm happy now and beyond elated to be a father. I'm hoping for a boy first and girl second, but the little girl outfits tug on the heartstrings when I see them at the store. I'm open to advice from everyone on parenthood. I've been trying to be patient and giving with my W, she is tired, emotional, and hungry in new ways. First Dr appt is next month.
Anyways, W is pregnant and I'm going to be a father next year. I spent many months this year deciding whether or not I wanted to have children with her after our situation. I made my decision. I'm happy now and beyond elated to be a father. I'm hoping for a boy first and girl second, but the little girl outfits tug on the heartstrings when I see them at the store. I'm open to advice from everyone on parenthood. I've been trying to be patient and giving with my W, she is tired, emotional, and hungry in new ways. First Dr appt is next month.
Congratulations! I kind of wanted one of each too, but I got two daughters--who I wouldn't trade for the world. Try not to get too stuck on that.
Had a really good talk with my W last week as we were driving down the highway. She came along for a hunting trip like the old days. We discussed my infidelities (when we were dating) and hers. A lot of emotion and caring for each other. I wanted to share with everyone reading something she told me. Part of her seeking an affair, her running back and forth from me to OM, and all the stuff that goes along with this was the fact that she was trying to prove it to herself that she could move on. She was really trying hard. Even once it became "safe" again for her to be with me, she still kept this mindset for months and months.
She was in essence trying to prove a point. She was being emotional. We've all seen someone hellbent on proving a point and we all know, at least a little, how to handle it. But when it is our spouse proving that point in this way, that's harder to handle. I just think it's important to remember this and it shows you why you should detach, not argue, learn to validate, etc. Basically it's why you should DB.
Anyways, W is pregnant and I'm going to be a father next year. I spent many months this year deciding whether or not I wanted to have children with her after our situation. I made my decision. I'm happy now and beyond elated to be a father. I'm hoping for a boy first and girl second, but the little girl outfits tug on the heartstrings when I see them at the store. I'm open to advice from everyone on parenthood. I've been trying to be patient and giving with my W, she is tired, emotional, and hungry in new ways. First Dr appt is next month.
Congratulation and congratulations!! Just remember, never stop working on the MR. Ever. Even after being parents. A lot of my W's and my issue was we became parents 100% and didn't remain spouses 100%. You can and should do both!
Wow, now thats an update!!! Congratulations on your growing relationship with W and on your new family in the making. What a blessing!
Now I think you know that I have 3 Ds (22, 16 and 10 yo). My number one rule with parenting advice is dont give unsolicited parenting advice. Ever. Why? Because just like in M, the more you know the more you realize what you dont know! It is an ever changing process, esp as the become teens and adults.
But since you asked ..... I will :-))) My girls could not possibly be any different in their personalities, their interest and who they are deep in their cores. I do not believe their similarities or their differences are attributed to their genders. In fact I think thats one of the biggest mistakes we as parents, and as a culture, make the moment children are born. We assume that because someone is born with a particular s3x organ that they should be loved a certain way and that they prefer certain things, and we project that onto them. That boys will like blue, hunting and that we value them being strong or athletic. That girls will like pink, and dolls and are valued for being gentle or kind.
I would challenge you, and any parent, to take all of these preconceived stereotypes and chuck them all in the trash. Gender is only one of many parts to who we are as people. Get to know, love and cherish this little human for who they are. Watch, listen and learn first. Dont assume anything and challenge your own biases. As you get to know them, accept them for who they really are. That is what love truly is. Similar to how we love our S for who they are, not for how we wish them to be. Parenting is not about bringing out the best in your child, its creating a place in the world so that they can safely be the best version of themselves.
You will be a wonderful dad!
Blu
Congratulations Ovr & W. You have the tools to keep on doing what works. As Steve says, a new life is coming. Enjoy that. Be aware of the changes, keep growing as amoafwl and as a father.
My best wishes for your family.
Congrats, Ovr! I'm happy for you and your family!
Congrats ovr!!
Thanks for all your input on my sitch!
Wow, now thats an update!!! Congratulations on your growing relationship with W and on your new family in the making. What a blessing!
Now I think you know that I have 3 Ds (22, 16 and 10 yo). My number one rule with parenting advice is dont give unsolicited parenting advice. Ever. Why? Because just like in M, the more you know the more you realize what you dont know! It is an ever changing process, esp as the become teens and adults.
But since you asked ..... I will :-))) My girls could not possibly be any different in their personalities, their interest and who they are deep in their cores. I do not believe their similarities or their differences are attributed to their genders. In fact I think thats one of the biggest mistakes we as parents, and as a culture, make the moment children are born. We assume that because someone is born with a particular s3x organ that they should be loved a certain way and that they prefer certain things, and we project that onto them. That boys will like blue, hunting and that we value them being strong or athletic. That girls will like pink, and dolls and are valued for being gentle or kind.
I would challenge you, and any parent, to take all of these preconceived stereotypes and chuck them all in the trash. Gender is only one of many parts to who we are as people. Get to know, love and cherish this little human for who they are. Watch, listen and learn first. Dont assume anything and challenge your own biases. As you get to know them, accept them for who they really are. That is what love truly is. Similar to how we love our S for who they are, not for how we wish them to be. Parenting is not about bringing out the best in your child, its creating a place in the world so that they can safely be the best version of themselves.
You will be a wonderful dad!
Blu
My W is a girly girl who followed your line of thinking. She helped her dad fix stuff, is a greater shooter, went hunting with her dad, played softball at a high level, worked her butt off on our venue doing all the manual labor with the men. But she still has a degree in fashion, loves design, and can totally embrace her feminine side. I really like that confidence to be comfortable in your own skin. That's what I want for my child. W's sister is 75% opposite of my W. Grew up in the same house though.
I compare it to my upbringing. I was raised in suburbia, I enjoy some parts of the big city and some parts of rural life. I'd see guys trying to be the most country and just laugh. The country guys all laugh and make fun of some of the things I like but that's A OK with me. I like drinking wine and eating well and being well read. But I still like boats, hunting, and building gigantic fires. I'm perfectly fine with enjoying the parts that are suited to me and not worried about conformity if I don't like it.
Also, when I was coaching I really did learn how different kids can be and it is pretty fascinating. I'm really pumped up for kids of my own.
ovrrnbw,
Congratulations! Parenthood is HARD...but well worth it! They always say you'll never know how much you could love someone until you have a child, and it's true. There's a bond from the day they're born which gets stronger with every passing year. I can't believe my son is getting closer to 6 and my daughter is already 2. Enjoy every moment!
Oh congrats ovr! I'm so happy to hear this. I'd suggest purchasing and reading Babyproofing Your Marriage: How to Laugh More and Argue Less. I wasn't exactly able to use it as I had D18 very young and my exH was a dumpster fire of a human, but my happily married friends who did things in the "right" order swear by it. I also strongly, strongly suggest you buy W What to Expect When Your Expecting and absolutely do not let her near the internet unless it's the website that goes along with that book. The internet is a rabbit hole of anxiety inducing medical anomalies that will send her and probably you down a dark well of worry that isn't good for anybody especially baby.
Parenthood is one of the hardest and most rewarding things I've ever done in my life.
Congrats ovrrnbw, I don't think I've ever commented on your thread, but I did read them all start to finish recently. I am glad to hear things are working out for you, parenthood is amazing. I am sure with everything you have been through you are going to do great!
OB,
Congrats! Being a dad is the greatest honor in the world!
Ovr,
Congrats to the both of you on the new addition.
OK update time here.
I don't have much to say. We still fight and backtrack on progress but it hasn't been anything we haven't gotten through.
I think W has been a biabia once she got in the 3rd trimester - not always just more often.
Her parents have annoying in the way that an overly enmeshed family can be. Oh well, this is the woman I married. My goal is to learn to manage it better.
I added the Four Agreements to the book list. I really enjoyed it. A lot of good stuff there and it is easy to read.
Anyways, business is good, summer is here and my baby will be here soon as well. I'm ready for that. I need a buddy for my adventures and someone to cut my grass.
I haven't been sleeping well the last 2 weeks and this is pissing me off but I probably ought to try. Minimal effort has not been achieved yet. I think I am more concerned with doing my fun stuff like playing a game or working out first and sleeping is still secondary.
Also, we haven't had sex in months. It is weird typing that but I think I need feedback on this. I've been kinda apathetic towards sex in this R because "it's boring". And by boring I mean that we don't do anything too crazy and I have never been with only one partner this long. Excuses... I know. So if I don't write it out it is easier to ignore. This needs work but the baby is almost here too.
Should I move my thread to piecing?
Yay ovr! I've been waiting for this.
With a baby coming the family thing is only going to get worse before it gets better. But in the early months it's a blessing. Neither of you will sleep, eat or function independently without the permission of your bouncing baby boss. With extra hands all of that gets a little easier. And it can be smothering but you often have to remind yourself that it's a balance. It doesn't feel particularly smothering when you get to take a nap and wake up when you please vs when you are told you're getting up NOW by a squalling, demanding roommate. As the baby gets older or as you guys add more to the team W should (but we'll see) have a stronger desire to be the matriarch of her own brood and not want to constantly be around everybody else all the time. And over stepping grandparents usually get shut down eventually.
You guys both should probably read Babyproofing your Marriage and maybe give a glance to The Book You Wish Your Parents Read.
As for the seggsy time thing. I and my close friends were of the hormonal flavor that drove our drives sky high. So I don't really have personal anecdotes on that. But I do have a friend who I recently had to give some suggestions to about that kind of stuff as her H is rather vanilla and has a low drive. Communication is the main thing. But there has to be some acceptance on both sides. She will have to at some point be willing to discuss somethings you'd like to try and be wiling to try at least a couple. And you will have to accept that it may take years if ever that she'll want to bring something in that's fresh and new to the bedroom. And that her drive will likely never match yours. But all of that is kinda on the back burner given how soon the baby is coming. When the time comes I can probably come up with some articles you might want to look over and some things you might want to try but now isn't that time. And it probably won't be until at least 3 months after baby arrives. And trust me even you won't be thinking about seggsy time much, as the new addition will suck the energy out of the both of you for a little while while your new buddy adjusts to life on the outside.
I am curious though, have you guys talked at all about why your currently not having sex?
Yes move to piecing!! I'm heading over. I wanna update here just to bump my thread every once in a while but I'd really like to get things moving over on piecing.
Also, we haven't had sex in months. It is weird typing that but I think I need feedback on this. I've been kinda apathetic towards sex in this R because "it's boring". And by boring I mean that we don't do anything too crazy and I have never been with only one partner this long. Excuses... I know. So if I don't write it out it is easier to ignore. This needs work but the baby is almost here too.
Lots of writings and approaches to this problem. I am of the "never stop dating your wife" school of thought. Weekly date nights are mandatory. Buying her flowers for no reason just like you did when you were dating. Etc. Sometimes we men have a tendency to get lazy and stop trying (and I don't mean trying for sex, I mean trying to woo our wives). I think this is why our lack of romantic ability is often a topic of "girl" talk. When the ladies get together. I would imagine (I have no scientific proof of this) that the women who have no complaints about their husbands for a lack of romance are the women in marriages where sex still occurs relatively frequently. And that the women that complain about how unromantic their husbands are tend to be in the SSMs. Just a thought. It is easy to get caught up in day-to-day life and forget to fan the flames of romance.
The problem with being in a SSM at your ages is that eventually one of you will want it. And if the other one has gone into defensive mode about it every time it is brought up the likelihood that the one that wants it will just go seek it elsewhere becomes much higher. So I agree with wayfarer, if it starts weighing on you, whether you really want it or not, talking about it openly, honestly, with out blame or judgement is going to be better than trying to bury it.
OverTheRainbow, I would be concerned about a SSM during the 3rd trimester. That's when my marriage began to fall apart. After the baby her body's going to need to recover, and then one or both of you will be sleep-deprived. Not finding time/energy may only get worse, with resentment on top of everything else. My XW wouldn't talk about the issue. I bought conservative lingerie which she refused to wear.
I used to think "exciting" required new acts. I now realize subtle changes can create unique sensations. If you feel she's too conservative for even, say ice and warm oil, consider new positions, angles, beds. Yes, one of my favorite experiences involved a hotel bed with overly-bouncy springs! It's more the spirit of adventure--not, "Is this a good bed?" but "What positions and angles is this bed best for?" It's about a fun journey and being playful together, not just a destination, which of course you can reach alone.
I don't know how long your relationship is. The only relationship where I accepted boring sex was with my XW. In other relationships, it's been exciting 5yrs in. My XGF reports it was exciting 20yrs in. Boring sex is now a dealbreaker for me. It can be kept exciting as long as both parties want it to be exciting.
My SSM wasn't about a lack of romance but about my wife's growing depression. As Steve says, the lack of sex is often an indicator of something else that may be going wrong. Consider that.
Hello all, just wanted to offer a little support to everyone over the holidays. I know it's hard for those in the thick of things.
Also, I wanted to ask R2C: what is your saying about arguing with women? Never argue with a woman, right? What else did you say about that? It's been on my mind.
OB,
So an argument happens for two reasons and both are bad for relationships. Number one you lose control of your emotions and you typically say things you later regret. Two you are trying to prove your point. The saying goes “do you want to be right or do you want to be married”? The thing you want to do is to deescalate it with validation and humor.
Hey BL,
the baby is pretty good. I haven't been peed on in over 2 months now, but he would do it again given the right opportunity.
LH, thank you. I agree with your statements. There was something R2C would say and it gave insight to why women argue and how their mindset was different. Women argue for a different reason than men do and I found it interesting.
I don't know what R2C said exactly but I know it's often framed as women don't fight to be right they fight to be heard.
I don't know what R2C said exactly but I know it's often framed as women don't fight to be right they fight to be heard.
I think that was the core of his message. That women are arguing for different reasons and men want to be right and then aren't hearing the woman - in other words, men aren't understanding the message that is being conveyed.