End of part 7:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=61998&Number=2853606#Post2853606===================================
Yesterday W told me that she's no longer seeing OM. She's been trying to get me to see her for a few days now, and I've resisted. Apparently her mindset shifted (at least according to her) during a storm we had the other night. Here's a message I got from her:
I'm quite serious about my experience in those high winds. I've been terrified of tornadoes my whole life. My biggest fears are being burned alive, or get sucked up into a tornado. It may seem a bit dramatic, but I really was scared that I'd never see S or you again. And I've wanted desperately just to see you for a moment since then just to make sure you're okay, which is very strange, considering our separation. I've been taking steps since then to change the way I look at things, the way I handle things, and trying to make moves towards healing our situation, not just my own. I miss you. I'd like to see you. I'd like to have dinner with you. Maybe for a split second we could recall everything that was right about us, so that we can focus on those things instead of all the heart break.
I know there's no un-doing all the hurt I've caused you. But, I can't live with myself if I don't at least try. I'll be here. Trying to get you to see how truly I want our family back together. Snuggled up altogether on the big bed, playing and having tickle fights.
If that's not what you want, just let me know and I'll respect your decision, after all, I walked away first. But please please don't walk away last. Let's fix this. Please.
And then another one:
Even if it's broken, damaged, bruised, or whatever else... I still want it. Our family. It doesn't need to be perfect. But it needs to be us. I'm so sorry. I love you.
She's ramping up the attempts. I'm still resisting because...well, she kinda destroyed me. There's no way that I'm stupid enough to handle this as if it isn't some kind of trap.
But...she's making some level of effort...and I'm really not sure what to do. I probably need to re-read DB. Heh.
Meanwhile, I've GAL, so I'm just going to keep doing that, not withdrawing any paperwork at this point (not planning on it, honestly...). So...forward!
BM, it might be time to test how serious she is.
Tell her there are some things to do BEFORE you even entertain getting back together:
1st, couple's therapy. Tell her you want to start once a week or twice a week couples therapy. Find a good therapist that has experience in reconciliation.
2nd, do some things together with S and her as a family. Again, weekly or every other week. Zoo. Park. Movie. Dinner. Make it about spending time together as a family. Nothing romantic. This is to see how committed she is, and to see how she behaves all together.
3rd, NO dates. No sleeping over. No romance until you give 1 and 2 a few weeks. This is called easing into the water. You know, like when you slowly get into a pool to get used to the temperature. Do not jump in all together. And do not put dating and romance above the hard work and healing that must come first.
Finally, DBing works! SO remember your learnings. Detachment (self-differentiaion). Restudy that subject again. Make sure you keep a healthy self-differentiation into your next R, whether with her or someone else. Keep your 180s. And continue to GAL!
Hey there blakmac,
I have read some of your threads over the last year. I am glad you are still here and posting. Often times people stop posting after they move on, D, or even when the W/H starts to come back. I hope you will stay with us and keep us updated. It is always very helpful to follow the sitches over time and as things change. I am sure the others can offer you better advice, as they know your sitch better and are more familiar with WWs in general. I do have a couple thoughts tho.
I think you are wise to have extremely low expectations (less than 0.5%, haha), because you have already been burned, so you want to protect yourself. Once we have expectations or become hopeful again, we open ourselves up to become vulnerable and to more hurt again. I also think you are wise to think about how damaging that could be to your son to have his family on again/off again, etc. Kids do much better when they have consistency and predictability.
I find her note to you interesting and I do think it could go in either direction. If I recall, she had multiple OM, correct? And she was not apologetic and remorseful to you? ... It does appear that she is missing having a family unit and that perhaps she is realizing that you have so much more to offer than the OM had. There is also that chance that she is afraid of what she has created and so now she is having regrets. I don't see that as the same thing as truly wanting to reconcile the M and work with you. That is a LOT OF WORK.
So even if over time, she starts to show you that yes, she does want to R with you and she does want to save the M. Let's say she continues to use the monitored app and she continues to tell you she only wants you, will do anything to save the M, and that she is regretful and remorseful. So even then, something you might want to think about is -- how has she changed so that you can have a healthy M and family with her? Has she or is she willing to look at her mistakes and change? ... it is also, and perhaps an even harder question, one that we have to ask of ourselves too: meaning, how have you changed and how are you willing to change to make this work, given all the hurt and damage that has occurred?
I think one of the hardest things about piecing a M together after all intimacy and trust has been eroded, is learning to understand them, forgive them, and also really owning our own mistakes in it. BOTH people have to change and own their own mistakes -- that is especially hard when the other person has had multiples betrayals and we feel wronged by them.
Blu
I hope you will stay with us and keep us updated.
I'm not going anywhere.
Once we have expectations or become hopeful again, we open ourselves up to become vulnerable and to more hurt again.
This is something I worry about. I can almost feel my resolve slipping...even if just from sheer curiosity. BUT...I'm gonna keep working on that.
If I recall, she had multiple OM, correct? And she was not apologetic and remorseful to you?
Correct on both counts.
There is also that chance that she is afraid of what she has created and so now she is having regrets. I don't see that as the same thing as truly wanting to reconcile the M and work with you.
That's exactly the same vibe I'm getting from the whole thing. One thing that is a serious red flag to me (and I mentioned this to her yesterday) was that I know she's paying for a house that is her mom's name, and when child support kicks in it will make it very, very difficult (if it's even possible) to pay the mortgage on that house. So a lot of this looks like the thing that happened almost a year ago where she was about to get evicted and so she told me she wants to come back. The major difference I see this time is that when I told her I didn't know if that was a good idea a year ago, she went right back to telling me how she hated me. This time...she says it's different and she's not doing that. So...I'm not sure. I sometimes can't tell if she is getting more serious or if she's just adapting her strategy.
how has she changed so that you can have a healthy M and family with her? Has she or is she willing to look at her mistakes and change? ... it is also, and perhaps an even harder question, one that we have to ask of ourselves too: meaning, how have you changed and how are you willing to change to make this work, given all the hurt and damage that has occurred?
This remains to be seen, at least on her end. As for me...I've become far harder and resistant to her antics. I've put a lot of study into learning how to set hard boundaries, how to keep people from just walking all over me, and I've just become a completely different person (I mean, I'm still me...heh...but my attitude is definitely more confident and I just...care far less about reacting to everything). Other than the insane stress of dealing with her and the D, I feel way, way better about myself than I have in...well, probably forever. She pushed me well past my breaking point early on, and now I just go on with my life. It's been rough...but almost worth it to learn how to handle myself. Almost. lol.
My mistakes are easy to own. I was passive. I was spineless. I was depressed. I was weak. But none of that excuses her actions. And none of those things are problems that I have anymore. At least not now. So...we'll see what happens.
Take your time. Have the talk.
Take your time.
Hope...
False alarm.
Thursday, W said "Even if it's broken, damaged, bruised, or whatever else... I still want it. Our family. It doesn't need to be perfect, but it needs to be us. I'm so sorry. I love you."
This morning:
"I've been talking a lot of things over with some of my closer friends. Trying to figure myself out I guess. I've made an appointment with my doctor to discuss some of my meds. I might be experiencing some side effects. I can tell you that I wasn't, and I'm still not, trying to take advantage of you, which is why I'm taking the time to answer honestly. I don't really know that we can get past everything between us anymore. I've said this before. Our issues have only multiplied in the past year, and we couldn't overcome them before. I get sad and upset about the state of our family. I don't know the best course of action from here. I do think we should settle the D so we can get child support going as quickly as possible."
Yeah. Thought so.
bm, based on her history, I expect she will continue to vacillate between these two extremes. "Let's get back together." "Let's not."
Stay above the crazy!
No real change here. Also, sometimes there can be several false starts to reconciliation. I would say just continue to do what you are doing -- focusing on you, your son, and as Steve says to stay above the crazy. Keep being that lighthouse and keep standing tall. Keep being a strong father and the man only a fool would leave. That will continue to improve your confidence during a D.
She may go back and forth, throw out hooks, and she may change her mind and/or genuinely not even know what she wants for a long while. You can't control that. But the thing is, there may come a day -- in a few years or maybe just a few months -- where you both decide to give this another try. This even happens after D when the dust has settled. Sometimes after D, people feel less anxious about the unknown and can more clearly reflect on what they have lost.
She is still paying attention to you, clearly. You want to know that you handled yourself well -- for your family, your son, and mostly for you. Don't let your feelings about her and a D compromise your integrity. That is the hard part when someone jerks us around! Keep doing your thing -- stay quiet with her, but keep standing tall for you and your son. You got this.
Blu
Thank you. I have been moving forward, trying to keep my integrity.
I've been doing ok.
Thing is...I expected this. And not just because of the DB books...but because I *seriously* suspect that she has BPD. When W left, she went nuts. A friend told me just today that when we were together, she would say "If I wasn't married I'd be down to sleep with pretty much anyone."
That stuff? It matches the BPD diagnostic criteria. So does the way she devalued/discarded, and now attempts to hoover me back in.
Funny thing is, the DB books have been really, really great at helping navigate this...as have BPD forums, narcissistic abuse survivors groups, etc.
It's like they're all playing the same exact game, except that some of them just have this as a temporary form of crazy, while others are more permanently broken.
It's amazing how similar a WW and a BPD are. Heh. The main difference I've found in the advice is that one is geared towards being okay with or without them coming back, and the other is geared towards being okay without them.
It feels like these are more than "temp checks". Some of this stuff is outright abuse.
But we keep going forward. Maybe she'll be able to overcome her stuff. If not...I tried.
Thank you. I have been moving forward, trying to keep my integrity.
But we keep going forward. Maybe she'll be able to overcome her stuff. If not...I tried.
That is all any of us can do. At least you know you did everything and can be confident moving forward no matter the outcome. I am doing what I can too...trying to be the best I can be.
I have read your entire story. I'm not sure I have commented on any of it before. You've come a long ways and its good to see that you are still doing your best!
She's being oddly nice...but not like the fake nice she does before she does something crazy...but like genuinely considerate. She even paid for some of S's day care costs. 0_o
Something has changed.
The friend she called crying the other day saw her again this week. He asked about the call since they didn't really get to talk about it much...and she started crying just by him mentioning it.
Still going forward. But something is changing with her.
"He asked"??
That doesn't sound like what I would expect from a WAW that wanted to R.
Ah, yeah. Let me clarify. This "he" is a mutual friend that is happily married and isn't the kind of guy to get involved with anyone other than his own W. There's no interest between the two of them (him and W).
When she called him, she was scared of the storm and wanted to talk to him (presumably) to see if I would possibly take her back. Neither him nor I have any real idea what was going on. He asked her to explain why she called, she just cried. He didn't push the conversation any further.
I trust this guy. He's the person that helped me get the job I have today, and his office is right next to mine. He's a good man.
Lots of good men have committed adultery.
BPDs can be kind and considerate when they want to be. It’s likely because her hoovering isn’t working and you’ve earned a bit of her respect. Keep it. Don’t let your guard down.
Experience: thought I was BPD but it turned out to be PTSD. Behaviors and thoughts are similar.
Lots of good men have committed adultery.
That's true. This guy isn't an OM. I know 100%.
So this morning I got a message from W. She was at a yard sale, found a computer monitor for $20, and wanted to know if I wanted her to pick it up for me.
0_o
I told her "no thanks, I'm good on monitors right now."
Sometimes she's so weird...
blackmac, what is the update on your D proceedings?
Still waiting on her attorney to learn math. Otherwise...not much happening with it.
I'd talk to your attorney and see if it can be pushed forward.
That's what I'm thinking.
Out of curiosity...what do you think she could possibly be trying to do with all of this?
Most likely trying to keep you on the hook as plan b.
Well, yeah. She's tried to do that off and on. She even asked if we could work this out a couple weeks ago.
I hope I can get in touch with the attorney. They've been really hard to reach lately.
That's what I'm thinking.
Out of curiosity...what do you think she could possibly be trying to do with all of this?
This. Plan A fizzled. She isn't quite ready to settle for Plan B yet. So she is stalling hoping another Plan A comes along.
I'd push the D forward. Stuff has to get real for her sooner or later.
I called my atty's office. I asked about the status, but they didn't have any update, the atty wasn't in, and they'd call me back later.
It's really annoying.
Mac, if it were me starting Monday at 9, they'd get a call from me every hour or two. Until I got a hold of the atty.
Remember, in life you have to make things happen.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure you're right.
Now she's messaging me trying to remind me of when we were talking about moving to the mountains a couple years ago. I just said "well, that'll never happen". Not in a snarky way, but more in a "I really wanted that, but you ruined my life" sort of way, because realistically I won't be able to move away from this area for another 13 years most likely. So...I dunno. I'm just a bit lost right now (I'm not telling her that though) because there's a huge part of me that does still want her to come back. But there's another part that would never, never let anyone put S and I through that again...including W. It's just not worth the pain. But I guess we'll just see what happens.
You, more than any other posters here, would need to put some huge roadblocks in front of her to coming back, to see how committed to REALLY coming back she was. I know this is a DBing forum, and I know you have to deal with her for the next couple of decades in coparenting, but Mac I think you are going to look back in 10 years and be so glad that you went through with the D.
I hope you won't mind if I copy & paste a post I wrote on taking the WW back too easily. I'm not saying you should never take her back, but please consider the things I say in the following post.
Quote:
Yes, I would LOVE to see Sandi expound upon a "Letting Them Back Too Easy?" theme, from her unique FWW perspective.
We have to consider the makeup of the wayward mindset. In my simple breakdown, I would say there are 3 main veins that run to the wayward heart/mind. Those 3 are Resentment, Disrespect, and Rebellion. If you have ever experienced dealing with these feelings yourself, or dealt with another person who had them......you know it takes a lot of work to resolve those feelings completely.
Even if she is willing and trying to come to terms with it, the emotion and flashbacks that caused the resentment, still want to creep around inside her head. And there are trigger points that can set it into a binge effect. If she has allowed herself to be controlled by her emotions (which, of course, waywards do) then it will prove to be very challenging for her and the H, just in different ways. However, I am a firm believer that it can be accomplished, if the WW wants to let go of it badly enough. Sadly, many don't want to turn lose of anger or whatever seems to control them at the moment, as crazy as that sounds. It requires a lot of self discipline, and which we know WW's have very little. Intellectually, they know they should do everything in their power to get rid of it. But what will it take to give them that "want to" get rid of it? That is the question that leads back to the H not being able to force her what to feel. However, he can certainly influence!
I wish I knew how to explain the dynamics in the female - male relationship. Then perhaps I could better explain why her respect for the H is vitally important, and how that respect, or disrespect, affects their entire MR. It definitely affects her feelings for him (and I will get back to this in a second). If a man allows his WW back into the MR........knowing he does not have her respect, he will never be appreciated, much less admired. Unless she simply fakes it, she can't admire him. Those dynamics would also better explain why she has the rebellious attitude with him, as though she were a teenager and he was the parent. It is a very complex relationship and it leaves the H completely baffled with why she would say and do some of the things she does in her wayward state.
LBH's should not let her back too easily, with no questions, no discussions or decisions. He had better have a plan and have an agreement from her to cooperate 100% with his plan before he ever says they can reconcile......then hold her to it. Rug sweeping is no solution, period. It makes matters worse, so that route needs to be taken off the table immediately. Neither can the H "nice" her out of her waywardness. This is where I think some of the LBW's here on the board may have a problem with some of the tough love advice. B/c they would love it if their bad H was nice, especially if he had been abusive. However, these ladies are not wayward, and that's the main difference. I am telling you it does not work with a wayward woman. It stems from those three areas......resentment, disrespect, and rebellion.
There are some things that time eventually heals, but I personally do not believe time, alone, can heal matters of this nature. Time, coupled with good counseling can help with a big part. However, before a woman can begin to resolve these problems, she has to be willing to work at leaning how to let go of the past and stop blaming her H for everything. in her frame of mind, I believe she has to have some type of guidance from an unbiased source........and preferably, professional. I don't mean attending MC with her H, either. She first needs help just for herself. If she has a spiritual leader, I would recommend spiritual counseling, b/c these are matters of the heart. Once she begins to deal honestly with her feelings......and is seeking to learn new skills, the couple stands such a better chance at reconciling. And then the couple should attend a good MC or a highly recommended M program, support groups or something that will help guide them through Piecing. Just leaving a couple to figure it out on their own is not the healthiest of choices. The main ingredient there is willingness from both sides. (Side note: BluWave and I have a thread about rules for piecing, if you care to check it out.........Definition and Guidelines for Piecing
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2832573#Post2832573 ).
I believe a woman cannot hold on to these three issues toward her H and/or the M, and have a warm, loving, sexual desire for him. These strong, negative feelings will surface almost daily in some sort of fashion. Some women may be HD enough they will want the act of sex, but they use the man as if he were some type of object in order for her to receive pleasure. Some women may play along and just tolerate the sex, but she doesn't feel the attraction and desire for him. And that's not to mention those who use sex as a way to manipulate the H. She may go through the act of ML, but that's all it will be. I can't give any scientific proof, IMHO, that it is impossible for a woman to have that kind of inner contempt for her H.......and be able to feel attraction/desire for him. I believe that is the true source for a lot of SSM.
She has to find appropriate means to help her resolve this mindset in order to have peace within herself. By that, I mean her meeting with her new friends at the bar is not the guidance she should receive to resolve her bad feelings. Even if she were to move on to another relationship, this mindset toward her H, consequently affects her ability to have complete contentment in her life, IMO. She may try to ignore it, deny it, and act otherwise......but it still lives in her heart and it is a dark, cold leach that [censored] away at the core of her spirit. So, just imagine how it would be for the LBH to allow his WW to return to the MR too easily, instead of her doing the necessary work, first.
When or if a LBH lets his WW back into the MR too easily, it is comparable to dismissing someone who is pregnant. She is pregnant and must go through a laboring process. (The pregnancy/labor metaphor is applicable to many things. I used it in the last thread illustrating Piecing the M back.) In the pregnancy stages, the H notices when things become uncomfortable for her, she is grouchy, complains, nothing suits her, etc. Her hormones are wacky, so she does some weird and out of character stuff. The H usually does whatever he can to make things easier for her. In time, she starts to experience contractions, and things go into high gear. She may, or may not, turn to a professional for help. The labor can be long and agonizing, and most H's wish there was just something he could do to take her pain away. His role during that time should be to show her he is emotionally strong, stable, and confident. She doesn't need to see him crying or begging her for anything. He doesn't show her how afraid he really feels. He doesn't start acting like a crazy person and screaming along with her, or reacting to her contractions. He doesn't even get upset when she screams, "This is all your fault. I will never let you touch me again".
This may not have been the greatest analogy off the top of my head, but I hope some of you will see that the main message here is to let her go through the labor process. The H is making a bad mistake to let her back into the MR without her doing some work on herself. Why would a man want a woman to be with him and have those terrible feelings toward him? There are no short-cuts and those unresolved feelings will surface!
P.S. There are some WW's who go through an emotional heart operation, in order to heal her own issues she had in the MR. These are the women who are working to atone for the destruction they caused, and hopefully, establish trust and respect again. Some WW's
do turn around. Done correctly, and rebuilding the MR & family will require hard work from her. The results are so worth it.
((hugs))
Sandi,
I think the labor analogy is a great one. Because a woman has to birth the baby to get relief. If she doesn't and the baby decides to not come on the due date then the stress, emotions and pain continues. So a woman has to birth the pangs of the resentment, rebelliousness, and disrespect in order to move on. The other part that works well is a man/husband can't have the baby for his woman/wife, she has to do it all on her own, the physical part. So a LBH has has to treat his WW the same way, he has to let her birth the pangs caused by him, while he shows he's a strong, confident, and understanding man. If she says she don't want him to touch her ever again, he understands that, that's her feelings at the moment (while she's in labor), those feelings, can change once all the labor is through(once she births the pain of RRD(resentment, rebelliousness, and disrespect)) she will want him around again.
IMO, I think it works great. You probably can get better details, I never gave birth before, LOL
Joe
Thanks JoeJoe, you are right, the man cannot rescue her from the pain. He can be there and give her encouragement to press on, and she may need a doctor to assist, but ultimately she is the one that has to do the hard part.
And, just like when women go into labor to birth a baby, not every woman takes the same amount of time. Some women have a much harder time with the delivery than other women.
You guys are awesome.
There are definitely plenty of road blocks, and I wouldn't let her just come back without putting in the work. I think she has been seeing some kind of therapist, but I also think her friends are still a major influence on her life.
I'm not interested in her just showing up, sweeping stuff under the rug, etc.
I've also come to terms with it just being over. It still annoys me. It still feels unfair. But I'm okay, and I will continue to get better. And there's nothing she can do to stop me.
I hope she is coming around to stuff. But I know she's not ready. So I'm not in a hurry.
We've asked the judge to sign our decree if they don't object by the 15th. So almost done.
Except now she's trying to move our S to a different after school care program without my consent.
I guess she's not interested in working with me at all.
You have chosen your road. Keep your eyes there.
How’s GAL going BM?
It's going pretty great. In fact, the less I have to deal with W the happier I find that I am.
She's turned into a pretty big psycho, and people are starting to notice.
I'm over here just doing what I need to do, trying my best to be a good dad and keep everything from falling apart.
Just going to keep moving forward.
So I'm apparently not getting divorced today.
They objected. To a fair amount of stuff.
But it's all stuff THEY wrote, or the claims they are making as the basis of their objections are false.
So, I don't even know what's going on anymore. lol
Oh man! Not your monkeys...
Keep Strong, Stoic , Self-accepting, Self-assured, Self-confident, Self-disciplined, Steadfast , Sturdy and Sentered ( had to cheat on the last one , but you get the gist ) Smile and wave, smile and wave . You can do it
They objected. To a fair amount of stuff.
"They" being your W and her L? My XW pulled something similar, objected to the settlement at the very last minute. The settlement that SHE drafted up. She sent me an email stating that she wanted to adjust the settlement amount upwards by 7k or so, and the reasons (I kid you not) were complete gibberish that made no sense at all. I asked her if we could meet to review it and she blew her top for absolutely no reason. Said "no forget it we'll just let the lawyers fight it out in court, and I promise you will NOT come out on the better end of it." I explained to her that I just wanted to understand her reasons as the email didn't make sense. Nope, she didn't want to talk about it. Up to that point everything had been handled quite amicably, I have no idea why the sudden change in her. After thinking about it a few days I told her I still didn't understand her reasoning, but trusted that she felt it was fair and to modify the paperwork and I would sign it. And that's what we did. I probably would have spent at least 7k in legal fees (and she would have too) trying to battle it out with her, and the thought of a long, drawn out court fight just had me spiraling all over again. So that 7k was worth my peace of mind!
""They" being your W and her L?"
Yep.
I haven't asked W anything about it. She probably wouldn't discuss it, anyway...so what I did was find the payment proofs that she is claiming that she paid (showing that I paid them) and made sure that my attorney had them and also uploaded them to the parenting app (because it's all admissible) and set it as an expense that I wasn't claiming reimbursement on...just so she could see it with her own eyes. I know they're going to try to deny that I paid them still...but that's just because they are stomping their feet.
She's also objecting claiming the (correct) separation date is incorrect and wanting to change it.
The rest of the objections are things they put in that they didn't realize they put in, and also they're claiming that because W didn't sign it, the document needs to be altered.
Welp. Should be a blast in court.
Back in court to deal with all of the objections tomorrow morning.
I'm going to do everything I can to leave that courtroom with a new status tomorrow. No more dragging this out...it's been too long.
Had a meeting at S's school with his teacher, counselor, and W last Thursday. She was once again trying to play nice, asking if there were any other kids living in the home with S (she was filling out papers and she was fishing to see if I've had anyone move in with me), I told her "No, just S and I for the foreseeable future, and frankly, it's pretty nice." She just kind of laughed it off. Good.
Ah well. Tomorrow needs to hurry up and get here so we can get this all figured out. I'm really, really hoping that we can finalize everything tomorrow and just...breathe for a change.
No court. They requested a continuance and didn't bother to properly notify us. Something is up.
And of course she posts a new picture of the dude she said she wasn't seeing with her at the bar last night.
It's like...no matter how many people I block, I still get to see the bs.
I just wish she'd go away at this point.
And of course she posts a new picture of the dude she said she wasn't seeing with her at the bar last night.
It's like...no matter how many people I block, I still get to see the bs.
I just wish she'd go away at this point.
Social media is evil. I have none and I truly believe I am a happier, more fulfilled individual without it.
I would delete mine, except standing orders where I live say not to do that.
Apparently it's cool for her to do stuff like that when she's hiring her atty, and nobody says anything about that. She posts stuff that just adds to my case against her.
I don't like that I'm never going to get closure from this. I know I decided like a year ago to make my own...but the longer this goes on, the more exhausted I get, and the less I understand what I did to deserve this (pretty sure W is BPD). I know that once this is over it'll be easier.
Yesterday I had a conversation with some of her relatives that have never sided with her. W and W's mom are telling people that I'm stalling. The good news is that the people her mom talks to don't believe her at all.
I asked my atty to let me know what it would take to go for full custody at this point because I know that W can't be trusted at all, she's abusive, and she only escalates things...even if I do nothing to her, she will find out about something (like me GAL) and then she'll do things because she knows I'll hear about them one way or another.
I asked if she would watch S on an upcoming day off from school that I have to work on. She said she has plans. She NEVER really makes plans that far in advance, but because I've done the "I've got plans, sorry" thing (I DID make plans), she's just going to use it against me. Her mother won't watch S that day, either. In fact, she didn't respond to my text asking her to help...she instead ran around spreading more lies about me.
This is exhausting. It's gone on so long, and when I start doing better, she finds a way to hoover her way back into my head. It's not okay. I know she's mentally/emotionally abusive...others know it as well and try to be supportive of me...but it doesn't stop.
I only want her to stop and let me live my life and leave me alone. The better I've become at resisting/gray rock/GAL/etc the more determined she's become to mess with me.
She's even told me she was going to take S on my parenting days and take him to a different after school place without my permission. She didn't, but she threatened it.
BM, you control whether or not she is in your head or not. Not her. I see a lot of victim mentality in this post. If anything, over the last year and a half, you should have learned that being beta will always get your grapes squashed. Be alpha.
Forget her and her mom for your child-care needs. The less he is around either the better. The courts will say what the minimum is that he has to be around them. Make sure to keep it as close to that minimum as possible.
You need to get to the point where a picture of her with some some slob has no effect on you.
Are you in IC?
I'm not. I can't afford IC. She agreed to start paying CS in June, but now they're fighting to start it in August using some claims that they are lying about.
Even alpha can be mentally abused. I'm not the "poor me" type. I never have been. But when dealing with an NPD or BPD...all bets are off. I've been doing GREAT for a long time. 4 months ago she tried to say she wanted to come back and that she wasn't seeing this OM.
The part that bothers me isn't that she's doing that. What REALLY bothers me is that I legally have to trust that she'll make good decisions for S when she's tried to edge me out of it on my time, has attempted to legally restrict me from getting help from my family, and her mom is just as bad (if not more experienced at this stuff).
We had a meeting with S's school counselor and teacher. W tried to derail the talk and use it as a platform to complain about his after-school care. They told her they couldn't do anything about it, she kept pursuing it. She was telling them that she would go pick him up from there...I had to interject because she told me that she wasn't using the after-school program. I said "You told me you weren't using them..." so she decided to ramp up the victimhood game..."well, YOU want to use it, so I use it because YOU want to" (she had always said she wanted to pick S up every day so I didn't have to use an after-school program). At that point I told the teacher/counselor that she had gone to the after-school care people, got into a yelling match with the staff, and she called the police on them.
Since then, she's back in "make him pay for embarrassing me" mode. Why? She told her mom (who told the rest of her family) that I was "mean" to her when I called her out for trying to manipulate S's school into getting involved in something they have no business in.
See, it's not about being alpha or not. She's made it clear (and yeah, it's gotten back to me that this IS the reality) that she wants me to suffer for making her look bad (because she can't see that she's the one doing the stupid stuff that makes her look bad).
She's a total piece of work.
The picture didn't really hurt because I expected it. But when you take ALL of the factors into consideration, she's absolutely trying to cause me trouble. And that's the exhausting part.
BM, you are giving her more power than she really has. Detach some more. I know you are tired of all that. It depends on you now man.
Get out of her circus. It´s about you and your kid. That´s all you need bro!
Hugs!!!
(((BM)))
BM, neffer is saying what I was trying to say. Don't get sucked into her drama. Telling the school what she did with the after school program was getting sucked into her drama. It wasn't germane to the discussion. You said yourself that the school said "that is out of our purview" and then you got down into the dirt with her and said what you said. Please do not insult my intelligence by trying to defend that as you having pure motives. You did try to embarrass her. And then there were consequences for getting down in the dirt.
Stay above it BM. You are better than that.
"The picture didn't really hurt because I expected it. But when you take ALL of the factors into consideration, she's absolutely trying to cause me trouble. And that's the exhausting part."
Again........you are giving her too much power here. 0 pictures. 1,000,000 pictures. 1 factor. 1,000,000 factors. You are an unmovable rock. And if you can't be that now, then work on getting there (IE IC!!).
Oh and on IC, I've said a million times if I've said it once....you can't afford to NOT be in IC. You aren't moving forward on your own, so get the help you need.
Please do not insult my intelligence by trying to defend that as you having pure motives. You did try to embarrass her.
No. She has made a massive habit out of stretching the truth and denying reality. I'm not dealing with just a WAW at this point, I'm dealing with a full-blown narcissistic abuser. She was trying to make herself look good and blame me for the issue. She was attempting to derail and force them to enter her drama world. I stopped it with one sentence.
This isn't insulting your intelligence. The game has changed. I'm not trying to fix a wrecked marriage anymore, I'm trying to survive and abuser who is purposefully skewing the story to S's doctors, teachers, and school staff. I'm not allowing that. If she wants to play games for sympathy, I won't allow that because she's literally using S as leverage to get attention and sympathy for herself.
Things are far different than they were when I first started posting here. I came here with the intent of saving the marriage. Every time there was progress, I would learn that the "progress" was just her messing with my head.
Narcissistic abusers are sick. I don't have to say anything to her to make her go into a rage and start petty (and sometimes not petty) attacks, and a lot of that hasn't been posted here because of ongoing legal issues. Whenever she feels like I'm not doing what she wants (when I'm GAL or anything), she amps up the attention grab...even if it's negative attention.
She's now scheduling S's dr appts on my parenting time on purpose so she can take more time for herself. And if I don't like it, she's telling me I can skip work and handle it. I gave her rights to make appointments, but she's doing this to put me in a place where I have to choose between making enough money for S and I to survive or getting him to the appointment and struggling. In fact, the appt date/time isn't necessary, but I won't get into that right this second.
The bottom line is she IS abusive, and I'm not letting her walk all over me.
I have, in our court-monitored communication app, folders for messages she refuses to read and also for messages from her trying to say she wants to come back. It's a hoover/devalue/discard cycle.
It's over.
I can breathe now.
We're officially divorced.
Wonder what's next?
bm, hang in there man!
What's next, set yourself up for success in your next R! I'd start with deciding on what you can afford for IC (once a month? once every other month? once every 3 months? Even once every 6 months!). I would highly suggest a life coach but you probably can't swing that financially right now.
Lots of reading. Lots. Get books from the library. Concentrate on relationship books, self-improvement books, etc. R2C has lots of good lists on books (if it is not a violation of the board rules to post them).
One thing I hope you learned through all of this is not to sit back and wonder what is next. Figure out what YOU WANT next.....and go get it!!
The world my man, go out there and grab it
Happiness comes from inside BM! Get it and shine there.
Take good care of S, as you always do.
(((BM)))
Lot's of reading. Lots. Get books from the library. Concentrate on relationship books, self-improvement books, etc. R2C has lots of good lists on books
D has been final for a month. Now it's getting wild. lol
GAL is going G R E A T! I've had almost no contact at all with the now ex W, and life has been peaceful. She finally started paying child support!
*record scratch*
So a month ago we reached an agreement on support. She's payed a bit. The hard stuff is done. But last week I got a letter stating that someone requested an adjustment in CS. Today, exW stepped down from her high income position to take one just below where she was, but making $14/hour, effectively cutting her income in half. I asked her if she requested an adjustment, she said that she is about to. I told her "you do realize I got the notice of the meeting last week, right?"
I thought things would be calm for longer.
She can't leave it alone.
bm, I am not sure of your financial situation. I find that most people tend to overstate how hard up financially they are. Meantime they have cable TV with every single channel, not to mention Netflix, Disney+ and other paid streaming services. They drive nice cars that cost a lot of money. And they have to have a top of the line smartphone with an expensive data plan. In other words, they are prioritizing in the wrong places.
I say all of that to say that if you stepped up and just said "You know what, I don't need your support. I can provide for me and mine on my own!" that your life moving forward would be a lot easier and a whole lot complex. I hear horror stories of LBSs (mostly LBWs) that get dragged into court over support on a regular basis. That would NOT be for me.
So just a thought.....tell her to take her support and shove it. That would be what I would do. Then she will have no connection to you except for S, and then you can concentrate on coparenting with her without any other baggage.
Well, I don't watch TV or have streaming services. I have internet because I have to for work. The car note is high, but that's because we bought a car together before I ever thought she might bail, and I got stuck with it all. I haven't had time to save money to get a cheaper car because of all the cash outflow.
I've been a huge fan of personal finance for a long time, and I kept it together the whole process. I even quit smoking, which has helped a lot.
If I could afford everything without her help, I absolutely would tell her to shove it. I have a few bargaining chips for our support negotiation meeting coming up. Bottom line is she voluntarily stepped down, and without the child support, I'm just about maxed out. I've cut out unnecessary spending as much as I really can, and I'm now paying 100% for after school care. After the D finalized, my bills increased. It's literally just necessities...I have no extra memberships or anything, and she ended up not taking on any significant percentage of the debt (she ended up with about 3000 IRS debt, but I got stuck with another almost 20k in joint debt that she didn't take as part of the deal to get her freedom and give me primary custody).
Honestly...I wish I could tell her that. I can't move out of the area to get a better job (which would probably double my income, tbh) because of the geographical restrictions she requested, and my family is 1,200 miles away, so I don't have any backup. I already skip lunch breaks to make OT. It helps, but it's not quite enough to make everything happen yet.
So a month ago we reached an agreement on support. She's payed a bit. The hard stuff is done. But last week I got a letter stating that someone requested an adjustment in CS. Today, exW stepped down from her high income position to take one just below where she was, but making $14/hour, effectively cutting her income in half. I asked her if she requested an adjustment, she said that she is about to. I told her "you do realize I got the notice of the meeting last week, right?"
I thought things would be calm for longer.
She can't leave it alone.
What the heck?? She's demoting herself and will be making half the income? Why do you think she's doing that? I don't have a lot of experience with how CS works but my understanding is that once an agreement is reached it can't be changed just because the paying party decides they don't want to pay as much. IE, I don't think legally she can voluntarily take a lower paying position and cut the support she's paying because of it. I've heard of people losing their job completely and still being required to pay the same CS amount.
EDIT- did some Googling and saw on a law site that where a parent has "willfully reduced his or her income in order to avoid the obligation to pay" that typically the court will not allow a reduction in CS. So if she's voluntarily reducing her income then I don't think the court will look favorably on that.
Well, I don't watch TV or have streaming services. I have internet because I have to for work. The car note is high, but that's because we bought a car together before I ever thought she might bail, and I got stuck with it all. I haven't had time to save money to get a cheaper car because of all the cash outflow.
I've been a huge fan of personal finance for a long time, and I kept it together the whole process. I even quit smoking, which has helped a lot.
If I could afford everything without her help, I absolutely would tell her to shove it. I have a few bargaining chips for our support negotiation meeting coming up. Bottom line is she voluntarily stepped down, and without the child support, I'm just about maxed out. I've cut out unnecessary spending as much as I really can, and I'm now paying 100% for after school care. After the D finalized, my bills increased. It's literally just necessities...I have no extra memberships or anything, and she ended up not taking on any significant percentage of the debt (she ended up with about 3000 IRS debt, but I got stuck with another almost 20k in joint debt that she didn't take as part of the deal to get her freedom and give me primary custody).
Honestly...I wish I could tell her that. I can't move out of the area to get a better job (which would probably double my income, tbh) because of the geographical restrictions she requested, and my family is 1,200 miles away, so I don't have any backup. I already skip lunch breaks to make OT. It helps, but it's not quite enough to make everything happen yet.
Hmm, that is a precarious position for a guy to be in. I know I wouldn't do very well with that situation (needing my exW's support to make it). What if she were to die somehow and her support would be completely gone?
What if she were to die somehow and her support would be completely gone?
Then the geographical restrictions wouldn't apply and I could move to an area with better pay/lower cost of living, or I could move closer to my family.
I can pretty much cover the necessities to survive, but adding child care and other related costs to the huge "two income cash outflow" that I got stuck with is where I'm stuck.
I agree with Steve about the child support. I have full custody of my kids and chose to receive no child support because it was something that would keep my tied to her. The less I have to deal with her, the better. Is it hard? Yes, but I make it work because in the long run, it's what is best for me and my kids...
If she's as toxic as you say, keep moving on and don't look back. Don't worry about the pictures or who she is with. The hard part is over. Now it's all about building the best life possible for blakmac and son...
I'm doing that.
If I had the option to just forget it, I would. I don't have that luxury at this point. Sorry.
Well, last Friday, she asked if I could keep our S. She was checking in to the mental hospital. As far as I know, she's still in there, and she won't be released until they think she's ok to be in public/alone unsupervised.
I don't even know, man. lol
Well, last Friday, she asked if I could keep our S. She was checking in to the mental hospital. As far as I know, she's still in there, and she won't be released until they think she's ok to be in public/alone unsupervised.
I don't even know, man. lol
This isn't surprising. You had one of the more erratic WAWs I've seen. MTB was there, but his was having substance abuse issues. Usually if they act this erratically then it has to be chemically induced....either through substances or internal to their brain.
blackmac, congrats on coming through that crap storm intact!
P.S. I'd also use this as an opportunity to petition the court for full custody.
P.S. I'd also use this as an opportunity to petition the court for full custody.
Thought about it. Contacted the attorney, but haven't heard from them. Not sure what's going to happen. What I do know is that I can't just ask her or the hospital for info because HIPAA exists...and that's fine.
Since I already have primary custody, everyone may be slow to try to change anything (or just hesitant). I'd have to get info on what her diagnosis is and see if they consider her a threat to his safety...and they might. She's expressed that she has a really hard time handling him.
I should probably call the attorney's office again and try to figure out what's going on.
It´s sad for XW. It was going to happen sooner or later.
Be there for your kid as you always did. Be there for XW: she knows her S in at the best hands. Be compassionate and forgiving Blakmac.
You are the healthy parent. Keep shining there.