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Job,

I was unable to send you a message but I would like to know how to drop a link in my old thread to this one. I went over the 100 posts and too late to edit a post and add this link. Thanks!

Originally Posted by 97Hope

Previous Thread

Hi 97Hope. I just read your previous link/thread (only the first & last) and it felt like I was reading my own story! This is me 2, (minus the bit you wrote about faults/violations). Ages are the same.

If I had more time, I'd read all your posts, but I've got a 3 year old and she keeps me busy. My H is away at work until November. He too started drinking a lot more than usual. A six pack a day or more. I just excepted it. He wasn't drinking and driving. Beers at the end of the day, after hours and hours of renovations, that went on during his 6 months off work. (He just came off working 6 months at sea). The renovations we're on our property. What happened with your H and drinking? (I didn't read all your previous links, sorry)

Bravo to you and how you handled the work situation!

Hi Canbird!

Funny I was just commenting on AlisonUK's post about this very thing.

H moved out Feb1. I realized that worrying about his drinking was affecting me more than him, so I kept my mouth and opinions to myself.

I ended up having to tell our youngest S17 that he was not to get into the vehicle with H if he had alcohol in the car because H thought it was ok to drive and drink "just beer". I tried to talk to H first about it and it was a nightmare.

Beyond driving with S in car, I completely ignored it.

Weeks/months (not sure which) later, H started commenting about his own drinking. Telling me he stopped crying a cooler in the back of his truck, and that he didn't have beer at work for after hours etc. I believe none of what he says and 1/2 of what I see. Told him that was probably for the best, and let it go. His issue. Not mine. I have plenty of my own issues to be getting on with!

We still share a checking account, so I see the trips to the liquor store, but I only notice it and move right on. I don't mention it and I don't think beyond seeing it.

He could be drinking himself into a stupor every night for all I know, but I just don't go there.

I know it's hard, but focus on YOU. You will sleep better for it. ; )

Funnily enough, my H was telling me he's planning a couple of nights off alcohol this week (probably because he's seeing his brother Monday and they usually have a huge binge, probably also because he has a huge work thing on this week and needs to think straight). I've stopped commenting on H's drinking, I know it's excessive and damaging his health and his happiness, but there's no point in me saying anything because it is counterproductive. They have to deal with this stuff themselves. I just said that was very restrained of him.
Hope: I love your new assertiveness and confidence, it's lovely to see. You have PMA in spades and I can see how much stronger you are

I love that "very restrained of you", made me chuckle. I said something like, "Good news! Onward and upward!" and he said he still drinks too much. Our son was in the car when he was taking about it, so I tried to keep it light, but jeez. To brag about not keeping a cooler in the back and not drinking at work really shed a light on how out there he is.

I mostly have PMA. Leaving that job helped. It was good to have boundaries and I think it was an exercise in knowing my limits and exercising them. With H you know how hard that is! But things have progressed to a point where I know deep down that if this doesn't work out, I am probably better off. Still a little scary, but hopeful for a better future.

Next stop, not taking any more garbage from H. Haven't texted/called him and honestly don't want to. I want to tell all the newcomers that you WILL not obsess over this if you focus on yourself and redirect your thoughts. I don't think about him until I come on here or something reminds me, but then I limit my time to thinking on that and switch to what's good for me. Today that is going through my clothes and doing a clear out so I can make room for new beginnings.

Yeah, not drinking in the car or at work is not progress, it's slightly less alcoholism-like behaviour. And employers are probably like Hs in that they will treat you as badly as you will tolerate...I'm glad you know your self-worth, and not having that huge commute will be great too!

Here's to new beginnings

This has been a process!! It's amazing how much more aware of the BS I was accepting!!

Cheers to new beginnings!!

Journaling,
Well...apparently he's making chocolate chip pancakes for someone.

I don't have proof of who it is. Not sure I want to know at this point. After 2 years of DBing, today I'm ready to go to L and go ahead and file myself.

We have been through affairs in the past. That was something I would not do again.

I'll see how I'm feeling tomorrow. Right now, it's not even surprising. Disappointing for sure. So glad for these past few weeks of feeling more confident.

If you pray, please pray for me. Wisdom. Right now I"m staying dark, so there is time to figure out if/when confrontation happens.

A part of me just wants to file and not say anything until his L calls him and lets him know (they don't serve anymore)...and when he asks just say something along the lines of "chocolate chip pancakes" lol.
Honestly, I would have stood for this marriage while he's on his 'journey' but given our past, and where I am, that can not include another woman.

I'll see how I feel about it later. Going to go ahead and buy that lipstick just now.

Hope you're okay 97Hope. You've sounded so upbeat and strong in your recent posts, and this has obviously been a big blow to you. Do you know for sure another woman is involved, or is your mind running away with you? Hugs.

I know I shouldn't make light of it and I hope you don't think me dismissive if rude but could it be alcohol pancakes he is trying out for his cooler??

Hope you are positive stay strong, he is the loser not any of us lbs, we are the ones making our lives brighter and more positive for us

Hugs tomorrow is another day

Hi Alison, It was a blow, but not a big blow. I have no idea if another woman is involved, but I know he lied to me several months ago about buying hazelnut creamer. Lied to our sons as well, this was the same purchase so IDK what to think. Just trying to figure out how I feel about it because right now I can't accurately identify my own emotion!

I'm still strong! Just wondering what my next steps will be. Thanking GOD for this 'time out' with H being out of town for 2 weeks and s17 being across the world! Gives me time to respond, if necessary.

I'm ok. Thanks for caring. Big hugs back!!

haha Solo!!! Perhaps it is pancakes for the cooler, heavy drinking can make one thirsty!! (I never mind humor, it's what keeps me grounded and sane(ish))!!

hugs to you. Yes, tomorrow is another day and I have big plans to get my car inspected/registered and get my nails polished.

Right now just enjoying the sound of the rain and glad I have groceries in the house! I had been putting it off all weekend.

Thanks for your concern!!

A little help, please. I've gone dark. Haven't contacted H in weeks (he initiates, I answer short yes/no, got into some minor flirting and a couple of too-much convos via text several weeks back but have since stopped)

He texted today for the first time in several days "Hey. How's everything going? Internet showed a lot of rain?"

He moved out 4 months ago, but has been maintaining the property (he thinks he is going to get it in the D). I don't really mind responding but I want to keep it short, but not be cold.

My thought: "Property is fine. I'll let you know if there are any issues." Or no response is what i'd prefer because I'm kind of sick of him reaching out on his terms...

What do you think?

Don't ask me, I'm crap at going dark

Maybe something like 'fine, thanks'. That answers both you and rain questions. Or don't even bother answering at all.

I am rubbish as well. But there isn't a direct question about the property. So I would ignore it. That's what you want to do. Go with what feels right to you, feels more like a temp check to me. But hey what do I know, I am floundering too

Well aren't we all a group of plant-murdering, lip-stick wearing flounders!? lol I'll give it until a vet comes by with a 2x4. I think we should invite blu and stander to our beach to pub walk so they can train us up. (Solo, we decided we'd rather have tea/pint together then feed them cake) ; )

From what I've read on here, it does smell like a temp-check, but I know he's genuinely worried about the ranch. It was a ferocious storm.

Hope, pint please for me, hold the cake

Not sure people even want to read my 2*4s, but I certainly have a large pile of them ...

Blu!!! I have read and re-read your 2x4's you have NO idea!! They aren't even written to me but I actually save them. What you do for people here is amazing. Keep them coming!!!

Solo, gotcha! lol

I've been having some fun with my gf on the response...ideas:

�Everything is fine. I�ll let you know if there are any issues. Have to run, making chocolate chip pancakes�

"we had a fire all is flat"

"just back here waiting for you to have the courage to be all in in this marriage"

And for the record, I can certainly swing as many 2*4s at myself (and I do!) as I can at all of you. I promise -- I can dish it out and I can take it! Has anyone read much about Gottman and contempt? Well, it is the worst thing in any relationship and the number one marriage killer. So here I am -- I got the H back that we all want and he is doing all the right stuff -- yet I am still over 4 years later full of resentment and contempt. It has been a huge struggle.

97Hope, I am not sure if I have read all of your thread, but instead of a 2*4, I do have some advice for those struggling with detachment. Most of my advice I would like to have given my previous self back in my post-BD days but cannot of course. Always keep your head above your heart. By that I mean to base your actions on thoughts and not feelings or emotions, and mainly fear. Fear is the killer.

The emotions and feelings are all over the place when we have been hurt, and they are not rational. When you look back on choices you have made in your life, you will often feel better about the ones that were well thought out and planned. That is even harder to do when you are in crisis mode and flooded with emotions every day. However, it is not impossible. It just takes work, dedication and some grit.

I like to steer people back to Sandi's rules because those are all the choices and decisions already made for us -- it is the blue print of how to "act" without allowing the emotions to take over. I would challenge myself to read them every day and sometimes I would read them multiple times a day. That way when I had to see H or interact with him, I could hopefully respond on autopilot.

What about all those times you really do not know what to say, do, or how to reply? I know a lot people here are big on validation and reading the validation threads. I just would caution you guys on that because validating is one thing, however enabling bad behavior or allowing abuse is quite another. We teach people how to treat us (by what we allow) and we have to value ourselves enough to demand people treat us well if they want to be around us.

But still, what about those times you still do not know what to say, or how to reply? Well that is where you put your head above your heart. Don't form your reactions based on anything you feel, used to feel or want to feel about your S. What would you tell your best friend, assuming you feel nothing for her/his S? What would your solid, unbiased, no agenda, advise be? Chances are you know what the best thing to do or say is, but you allow your fear to constantly get in the way. So take control of the fear. Be stronger than it. Because here is the thing, you have nothing to fear -- you have already lost them. The only fear is the fear itself.

Blu

Originally Posted by BluWave

Has anyone read much about Gottman and contempt? Well, it is the worst thing in any relationship and the number one marriage killer. So here I am -- I got the H back that we all want and he is doing all the right stuff -- yet I am still over 4 years later full of resentment and contempt. It has been a huge struggle.

Contempt is part of the reason we are where we are. My part. H and I have been down this road before and when we reconciled, I had all the contempt in the world and acted as if I had forgiven him, until I learned how to truly forgive.

My fear is that I am spoon-feeding him the cake. I fully believe that I have been allowing WAY too much cake-eating (I eat it with him and it feels good until it doesn't) So I'm in a new area. Friend zoned with benefits. If I had a friend that treated me like he does, I would have already blocked their number. But if my accountant called I would tell him no damage. So that's what I did. 5 hours later.

It's good that you are plentiful with the 2x4's - when you give advice, you are somewhat forced to follow your own advice. I've seen that in my life.

Journaling,

MAJOR eye roll. Have you ever read 'if you give a mouse a cookie' or it's companion book "if you give a moose a muffin"? That's what it's like with H. I answered his text about the storm. Next "do you know how much rain we got?" "no" do you have any checks? "no". Now wants to chat about the guy building the barn and how he has been slow in getting it built and quick to ask for payment. I responded with "sounds about right". THIS is how I get sucked in. While these aren't temp checks per se, I do feel like he texts me like nothing is going on. Because for the most part, he acts like NOTHING is going on.

I am just as guilty. Now, how do I get off this ride?

Let me know if you think I'm reading into this too much, or maybe I should have told him that I'd like some time alone?

I don't want to be cold or ugly (that's not how I'm feeling) I just don't want to be bothered with the trivial stuff. I'm not his friend right now.

97Hope,

I feeling exactly this everytime my H texts me or comes to the house to get the kids and is all chatty. Like what the fluff guy?!?! You are having an affair why are you acting like nothing is wrong with this picture. I feel like instead of spoon feeding cake I might as well be ladling it down with throat while he lays back. At the same time i do feel he cares. I could be completely off base. Add me to the crap at going dark list

Hope: just take your sweet time answering those texts, if you bother at all. My H often uses the weather to get in touch with me. He'll text me 'looks like a nice day' and I sigh and think I want to be married to someone I can have a proper conversation with (in person) not someone who texts me about hours of sunshine.
The texts are 'are you still there for me?', and we're texting back 'yes, I'm still here and waiting for you'. Maybe think whether that's the message you want to be sending? If you're DBing you should probably be too busy laughing and having fun with your new friends and hobbies to be debating yourself about whether or how to answer texts.*

*I'm much better at theory than practice, maybe we need to pretend to be each other!

Goddness, hope and dilly add me to that list yep something benign and then before you know it texts back and forth about crap. Goddness I love that image as it is exactly me, all chatty feel like I should just say you sit down in your favourite chair whilst I bring you a range of your favourite cakes and I will feed them to you. Well I will shove them all in your mouth, till you cant speak anymore.
Hope i loved your accountant annology, use that. You are talking to much, god me to and i know we dont want to be rude, but we are not there for them to ease their guilt. Look we can be friends erm no not at this time, whether we are in the future will be my choice. Dont enable him with boring text messages, you have more important things to do with your life.

Quote

I know a lot people here are big on validation and reading the validation threads. I just would caution you guys on that because validating is one thing, however enabling bad behavior or allowing abuse is quite another. We teach people how to treat us (by what we allow) and we have to value ourselves enough to demand people treat us well if they want to be around us.

This is so useful for me, Blu. I know I've worked really hard on validating, and all its done is made me a sitting target for more abuse. I've found it very difficult to distinguish between verbal abuse and someone telling me about their anger and me being able to validate it. I can see the roots of that in my childhood. The moment when I realised that there was a difference between angry behaviour and a conversation where feelings are described, I was able to make process.

It's a moot point now, because I don't feel like validating H's feelings - whatever they may be - anymore. I'd rather spend the energy on myself and my children.

But I think you've hit the nail on the head with this statement. I can see validation is an essential tool in marriages where one spouse has ignored the other's feelings and complaints for a long time. But others of us have been soaking up anger or resentment for years and it's healthier to put an end to that.

I think of validation as a 'supply' that I give to people. I think in some cases the Wh or W gets a bit addicted to that 'supply' and the validation only helps them carry on spewing, it moves nothing forward in any good direction.

Dilly,

I thought the same thing about pretending to be each other, that's why I've been more active here. Reading your sitch, I can tell you exactly how to act!! Then I'm stumped on a text message!!

Solo,

We will order you a shirt CAGD 'crap at going dark' but the membership requires that you start doing better now! No more cake-feeders.

Alison,
That is so true re: validation. Doesn't sound like now is the time to be validating any of these fools!! They need to sit in their pig-pens by themselves. I felt a shift when validating in my sitch went south. My H was just going on and on and I stopped him and said, "I can't listen to your list of complaints about me anymore. You have spoken, I have listened. Enough". At that moment it was no longer about saving our MR (which was already past dead, I just didn't know it) but about what was good and beneficial to me. For a time, it was appropriate to validate during our R convos. But after a point, it turned into me being a whipping post for every bad thing in his life. That crosses a line.

I hope you know where that line is for you. Any past trauma or abuse can make it hard to see. I strongly suggest IC for you so that you know what to look for.

Believe it or not, we can become acclimated to things that are wrong. I didn't realize how consistently my H invalidated me, and that's a terrible awful thing to do to a person. I didn't realize what was wrong, just that something wasn't right, until I understood what healthy relationship looked like. Since I'm now aware of it, I simply don't accept it. And I certainly don't let him read the list of my iniquities off to me. I am aware of what they are and I'm focused on being the best me. Certainly wouldn't take his advice at any rate on what makes a "good person" based on his current behavior.

Hi 97Hope

I guess it's about being constructive, isn't it? If the context of the conversation was 'here's how I feel when you do x and I would like x instead' then I'd listen to that, and validate, even if I didn't agree or wasn't able or willing to do x. The spirit of the statement is constructive. But I'm done with listening to 'look! a dead houseplant! one more example of how you are a terrible person, and I need to remind you of this while sitting on your sofa and eating your food because I am feeling terrible and you need to be responsible for it!' - the line has well and truly been found for me (I've been in IC for over two years and it has taken a long time!).

And I'm with you on not knowing what is wrong. I guess neither H nor me had much emotional intelligence when we got together. Love and good luck gets you so far but when life happens, you need skills that neither of us had. I think I am working on developing them - at least I hope I am - and the healthier I get the less appealing he is to me. That is sad, but I accept that's the reality of where we are right now and where we will probably be for a very long time, unless I decide to divorce him - which to be honest feels more likely by the day.

You sound in excellent spirits. Any GAL plans?

I think that's the point of DB, isn't it? The healthier we get, the less appealing they are and they and either grow emotionally, as well, or be left behind. But we come to a place where we know the difference because we have been busy doing to work on ourselves!!

GAL - I'm actually having dinner with the lady from the nail salon tonight!! She's texted how excited she is on having a new friend. (I didn't scare her off!! Hooray!) Visited with my pal yesterday and going to a movie this weekend. Would like to have available friends, but I'll go by myself in the meantime. It didn't bother me a bit and I got all the popcorn to myself, so...

Today I am trying to drag a tree off of my driveway. I had to call a friend to come by and help because I've never dragged a tree with a tractor before (only used it to move hay and some small limbs). I asked him to come and supervise and he's coming later today. I like this guy because he will watch and supervise do I don't hurt myself, but he's not an egomaniac. Those are sometimes rare qualities in men in the ranching community. I'm thankful he's available and willing.

Lots of yard work - not my favorite in this heat, but physical labor will be good for me. We had a major storm sunday night and I think a small tornado passed. Tops of trees down, that sort of thing.

I've also enrolled in a Biblical Counseling certification course!! I took the first series of classes a year ago, and have been struggling with feelings of inadequacy since, but so many people have been coming to me for advice that I feel convicted that this is my next step. I mean really, I've been in counseling so long, I certainly know what doesn't work! My church as a void for women's ministry and I'm being led to serve in that area.

In the evenings I've been watching Harry Potter. H would give me garbage about it in the past and I'm enjoying just doing what suits me in the moment.

I believe you have now reached level 1 in the CAGD, you may now put 1/2 of a line across. At the end of level 4 - we will all have complete red x's across that. ; ) At which time we will eat our own cake and drink our own tea/pints. Maybe even have to get new shirts with 'former CAGD'

Good to hear from you. Excellent on your work of self-awareness!!

Journaling,

Yesterday was amazing. A big tree was across my driveway and at first I didn't think I could manage it on my own, but I pushed it out of the way. I felt empowered and more confident in my abilities. Sometimes I feel very overwhelmed with this ranch, but H was gone a lot (deployed at one point) and we only have one S17 left at home.

I spent time off and on clearing out limbs from the storm and felt accomplished. Didn't beat myself up over taking breaks when needed. Realized that living with a judgmental prick for so long, I started judging myself with his yardstick. I'm slowly giving myself 'permission' to be me. It's a struggle because I'm nervous depression could come back and i'd be face down in fudge under the bed again. Last bought lasted approx 18 months. In my head I know that I am not where I was, I am much stronger, but there's always that small whisper of fear. So I'm focusing on today.

And today, I got a call from a friend. A mutual friend of ours "X" attempted suicide. I flew to X's house and my friend was right in front of me. X was in bed crying her head off. It looked like she has been in bed a lot. My heart broke for her. I asked her if I could take her kids to lunch and to my house for a bit, then asked her if I could give her a hug (X and I aren't super close like the other friend and I are, so I didn't know if she would be more upset that I got involved). Her sweet face was just --hopeless.Through her tears she nodded.

I grabbed her and told her that I was exactly where she was 3 years ago, she was NOT alone and we loved her so much. In that moment I realized the lie. That anything is hopeless. That we are alone in our struggles, that anything we have done is worse or better than someone else.

Because of my past, I feel uniquely qualified to be a friend to X. I'm hoping that this crisis wakes her up. I'm praying that God gives me the words of His love and hope that only comes from Him.

Had I not been through what I've been through, I wouldn't have even been out of bed myself.

To anyone reading this who is battling depression, Don't give up!! If your therapist isn't helping you get traction, find a new one! Just don't give up.

I did EMDR along with IC with an amazing therapist and I am a completely new person. Rather, I am my old self pre-trauma. It took a very long time and a lot of bad therapists/counselors/psychiatrists different meds, etc but I am so glad I didn't give up. Unfortunately, it took BD for me kick me back into therapy, but I am thankful every day for finding the RIGHT therapist, and doing the work.

I hope this finds you well and full of hope for a bright future.
x

Well done Hope!!! One more step towards detachment. Good for you for having the determination and self awareness to get there! Your friend is lucky indeed to have you. Just curious...probably because I am a therapist (teens mostly) myself...what is it about your current therapist that made her the "right" one for you?

Originally Posted by DejaVu6

what is it about your current therapist that made her the "right" one for you?

My current therapist told me straight away that she wasn't going to see me for "months on end until the end of time". Our visits were focused, centered on me and my well-being/growth, and productive. She gave me homework. She was not there to just listen to the issues and validate, we got to work. EMDR was most of it but even before that she had great insight into my struggles, but was able to guide me to figure them out and put a name to them. For instance, the Bible talks about "taking every thought captive and turning it over to the obedience of Christ". - I knew that I needed to do that, but didn't know how.

She led me in a way that helped me identify what I was telling myself (guilt and shame messages) and what to do with them. That was the most important and first step we took together. Unfortunately, I can give you a longer list of what happened with previous therapists:

1. My first therapist was great until he wasn't. I had PTSD and during a session, I was triggered and he said I was being a "pill". (this was something my parents said to me after I was molested and had episodes). He also suggested to my H that I had BPD. A psychiatrist later confirmed that I did not, PTSD and major depression, but def not BPD.

2. Same therapist suggested that my H continuing to work with his former affair partner could be a "growing experience' for our marriage. WHILE I was still doing EMDR with him. ??? Told him that if the AP had dragged me in the street, beat the heck out of me and left me bleeding to death, would he still suggest that H work with them everyday? UGh.

3. Another MC fell asleep during our last session, prior to this he told me my issue was contempt but didn't tell me how to get through it or what to do to help.

4. A psychiatrist dropped me immediately after I told her one of my medications was making me feel suicidal. (I later learned that her son committed suicide and she doesn't treat suicidal clients) even though I tried to explain that I never felt that way until I started taking the meds.

5. A very well-meaning counselor was amazing at listening and validating, but it was a lot of me talking about the issues and never really focused on results. Maybe "talk therapy" if that's a thing. I had been talking about my issues for years, I needed help, so every visit I would leave with an emotional hangover, but nothing new to do or try or work on.

This was over 7 years trying to find help. It's part of the reason it's frustrating that H just got tired of dealing with "my issues". It wasn't like I wasn't trying!!

Journaling,

X stayed the night with me. She is in so much pain. I remember those dark days. Taking her to an in-patient facility this afternoon.

Her husband doesn't get it. He says she "lays around all day". It's kind of the standard thought process for those living with someone with depression. He's a wonderful man. Kind and caring and a big heart. I suggested reading some articles on living with a spouse with depression. He's trying so hard, but she's in a funk he can't reach her in.

I'm realizing that part of my story is being used to help others and I am thankful today for the people who walked beside me and for this group here who share their triumphs and losses. We can all learn from echother.

H has texted/called etc. If it's not about the boy, I don't answer. MIL texted looking for him. Ignored that one, too. I just can't be bothered by any of that right now. Didn't plan this as a GAL but it is part of my life for today, so I'm focused on being a good friend.

Wow, you sure had some crappy ICs!
It must be nice to feel like you're being of service to someone. Maybe your friend's H might be better off reading a novel featuring someone suffering from depression? Fiction can often reach places articles can't.

lol I sure did have some doozies!! My new therapist (when I told her some of that stuff) just complimented me on my determination to not quit and asked what I wanted to use that determination for and my first thing was my thought life. Turns out I was sending myself a lot of bad messages.

Someone on here said that they don't know how to work on their thoughts.

This is what works for me:

1. Action
2. Thought
3. Feeling
4. Response
5. Consequence

So how this works is that after an action (let's say Dilly called me a houseplant killer - the very next thing that happens is that I have a thought about it. - my thought about it determines my feeling - either I:
a. laugh my head off because I KNOW she cares about me and she's tapping into our (CAGD Club) humor, or
b. she is judging me and thinks the worst of me.

So this thought has produced a feeling (a. happy, b. sad) my response (my choice!) is either a. laugh with her and come back with asking about her ivy b. pout and never speak to her again or c. address the issue and ask for clarification - from this point depending on how I respond, my consequences are a. friend who shares laughs, b. isolation because I believe I stink c. etc. etc. endless depending on one thought around an action.

I'm NOT a therapist, but this works for me and I have to go back to it when I get sideways, but it has been amazing for me. It's also helped me feel more confident each time I pause and remind myself that my thought-life determines my feelings.

This has also lead to good and bad conversations with others (i.e. when I've asked for clarification, sometimes someone was judging me) but at least I knew, and those bad convos were helpful, too.

And finally, when H does a less than desirable action, my thoughts aren't always all about me now!! If it's his issue, I am better at leaving it with him. If it's my behavior, I can adjust accordingly.

My first week of homework with IC was just to 'notice' my thoughts after an action. I had some major janky thoughts about myself! Didn't realize it until I started thinking about my thoughts.

Journaling,

Didn't do a dang thing today. Guess that was my GAL activity. Zero activity. Feeling emotionally drained after the last couple of days with friend. they called today and I didn't answer. I just can't be involved in that right now.

Her H called a couple of times. I told him that I cannot counsel him or help him. He wants advice. I advised him to call a man that he trusts AND get an IC. It's over my head for one, and I don't counsel men that aren't related to me. After what H and I saw at a marriage retreat (lot's of people who began counseling ppl of the opposite sex ended up in affairs), I don't go there. Also he stares at my chest when he talks to me and I started worrying about dealing with men as a single woman.

I like the security of marriage. If a man took it too far flirting or hitting on me, I always had a safety net in H. Knowing that I can deal with it on my own is just a little different than having a guy around to protect me.

Feeling a little moody. Looking forward to a big clean out tomorrow. Cleaning makes me feel good, just wanted to rest today.

I hope this finds everyone at peace in their sitchs and that your remember that you aren't who you once were and you always have a choice of who you can be today.

Hi 97Hope. He looks at your chest while he talks to you? *shudders* I applaud your self respect and boundaries there.

I have male friends, but there are certain topics and situations I won't get into with them. I won't talk about their marriages in any depth, and while we might go to coffee shops or lunches out - especially if they are professional friends - I don't go to bars etc. I also don't confide in men about my marriage. These are boundaries that suit me as a married woman (and I think I plan to act married in terms of fidelity until I am not married...) so I totally get your boundary around certain types of interactions with men.

I hope your clear out gives you some peace. And that your friend is recovering. It's really important to take time for yourself in situations like this. You can't pour from an empty cup.

You sound like you're in a really good place! When is your H due back?

Hi Alison!!

I like your marriage boundaries. Mine are the same. Also the same is that I will continue to live as a married woman until I'm no longer married.

My clear out was incredible!! Just what I needed. I finished the house and then did a lot of ranch work which was really good for me. The weather was surprisingly cool. I spent a little time in the pasture watching the cows and just enjoying the moment. Went to a friends house for a little chat and came home and fell into bed.

H is supposed to return Thursday (he 'shares' his calendar with me), but last night around midnight he texted to say that he was waiting for a flight and they said they didn't have any for 2 days. So short answer - don't know.

My S17 is also returning tonight!!! I'm so excited I could burst.

Both older sons 22 & 27 are moving here this summer as well. It will be good for me to be around people who love me and who I can shower with all this love.

How are you? How's GD going? Do you notice that they text/call more when you stop? That's been my experience.

I am really well. Everything is going fine with me. I have some concerns about Eldest - mentioned on my thread - but day to day things are peaceful. I see H quite a lot - every other day or so - but I don't invite him into the house when he picks up or drops off, and if he's civil I will exchange a brief pleasantry and if he's angling for a fight or critical or moody, or I just don't feel like putting the energy into it, I focus all my attention on Youngest and leave it at that. I veer between pity and anger and sometimes still fear, but those feelings are very manageable.

That is so wonderful about your sons. I love to imagine you on your ranch with some fine young men who love and cherish you around you. I hope you let them coddle you a little bit, and you can have chances to coddle them right back.

How is your friend today?

I love your discussion of how you've grown through therapy, Hope, it's great to see. And you are putting in good boundaries there with other men and with protecting yourself emotionally in the situation with your friend. As women we get the message that we should always be nice and be there for others, and it takes a long time to get out of that mindset when it's not healthy for us.

That's so true, Dilly. And I wonder if it's the reason why we women get into such hot water when we try validating our socks off. It might be better advice for men, who (vast, probably unfair generalisation alert!!) perhaps are sometimes more likely to have a history of ignoring or dismissing or not understanding the feelings and emotional experiences of their wives. But women are socialised into performing that service from the cradle. Perhaps we women need to concentrate a bit more on saying no and setting boundaries - something that, as you say, we're often illequipped to do.

No is a complete sentence!!

You both are so right, as women we are told to be there, be sweet, be a lady...etc. But you know my friend completely accepted my 'no' and then asked if we might go for a movie sometime. I was elated. Sometimes a no is met with hostility (they feel rejected, I get it) but in good, healthy, honest relationships 'no' is not only accepted, it's a form of comfort because you never have to guess with people.

H was here when I got home today. Met me outside as I pulled in and unloaded the groceries for me and then continued to flirt with me the entire evening. I strung him along and thoroughly enjoyed myself. He left and gave me the biggest, longest hug he has given me in 2 years.

I am not reading into it. I'd like to think he missed me while he was gone, or he could really enjoy the smell of sawdust, sweat and feed. lol It was nice to be pursued, not gonna lie. He asked me if I would lay with him in the hammock, I said sure and he picked me up like a bride. We lay there for a while. Not really talking, just being.

He is physically VERY drawn to me. I try not to think too much on it and just enjoy it. I feel good tonight. He left a little while ago. It's strange, but it's like my new normal. I asked him if he wanted some fruit because I didn't want it to go bad and I'm the only one who eats it and he said he'd take some with him tomorrow.

The trick to this, for me, is having ZERO expectations for him. I've said it before and I really want to emphasize it because it has helped me. What a terrific day that I was able to spend with an old friend. I don't know if/when I will see 'him' again, but I sure did like the visit today. Tomorrow, who knows? I have plans so I don't know if I will be here or not. Depends on what I want to do. I'm feeling like no matter what, I'm in a great place.

You sound like you are doing really well and have a lot of things to keep you busy. Really practicing your PMA too which is so tough to do consistently. My only caution would be to be careful that your H isn't doing a lot of cake eating as it won't motivate him to make any changes or decisions. However, I do completely understand the lure and appeal of being with your "old" H when he makes an appearance. Just make sure you keep your expectations at zero. (((HUGS)))

I think you're doing really well, 97Hope - and your PMA is inspirational. I also worry about cake-eating.

I can't say I've ever understood the concept, really. I get it that a H who leaves and doesn't want to be in a marriage has no right at all to still get the benefits of marriage. When it comes to sex, wife-work, etc etc - that all makes sense to me. In my situation, my H coming to tea a couple of times a week and being waited on while he was grumpy, rude and sometimes verbally abusive was definitely cake-eating.

But where do we draw the line? When your H comes over and is friendly and affectionate and wants to get some affection and warmth and friendship from you, is that cake-eating? Is that him taking what he needs without offering anything in the way of real commitment in return? Would it be better for you to freeze him out and act as if he's 'the accountant' (as I know I suggested earlier). Or does returning affection once given, and making a space for those small friendly interactions as and when they happen mean you're keeping the door open and leaving the path home paved smooth?

I don't know what the answer is and I've really struggled with the concept because it seems to make love so transactional. 'I'll only show you love and kindness if you show the correct amount of remorse and commit to the marriage in ways that I decide matter to me,' does not sound like love or marriage or kindness to me.

But then I DB terribly, so I am not making a suggestion, only raising a point for discussion and advice from those more clear headed and experienced.

(((Deja)))) Yes. ZERO expectations! Too true!! The cake-eating thing is tricky, isn't it? I'm stuck between cake-eating and 180 land. One of my biggest 180's was to not be emotionally erratic, H pointed it out early on and he wasn't wrong. He didn't feel safe with me. For the past 2 years I have been steady-Eddie. So I don't always know when it crosses the line to cake-eating, and him sniffing around to see if I'm safe.

I've worked very hard on my emotional stability and I feel amazing. So while I wonder if I'm feeding him cake, I also know that he's mentally and physically in a bad way. I can be a rock right now and if he's cake-eating, then I think, that's on him. Now, I don't go crazy or anything, he still pays the bills (as he should!) and does a lot around here for me (also as he should) but he is also taking care of a lot of other things for me: he picks up and delivers my dry-cleaning, he cooks dinner for me, he still fills up my gas tank, he asks me every time we talk how I feel, how's my job, how everything is. He wants to give me 'go nowhere' back rubs...I could go on. If he's eating cake, so am I. Maybe that's my problem?

It's a weird sitch. I have to apply DB principles as best I can. I certainly don't do it perfectly (CAGD) but he is very drawn to me and I'm not sure if I'm doing it right. There was a time where he completely went dark and I left him alone. I just stopped everything. He slowly started coming back, and I think I let him too far back in, because he bolted like a bunny and lost his head. While I try to temp-check him, I worry that I'm too focused on him, so I default to doing what I feel good about doing and leave him to manage it on his own.

Alison, you know you are not alone!!! This is exactly the thought that goes through my mind!! The 'transactional' relationship. If I'm honest, H does more for me now than ever. We have dated more in the past 6 months than the past 10 years. I think it's because he felt me let him go. I truly have no expectations right now. I really don't know some days if he could ever be the man I want long-term. He has a lot to work through. So it's like we are dating, and feeling each other out. I know for a fact I don't want our old MR back, but this one? It's really nice. I don't know if I"m delusional or well-adjusted, and I'm not sure I want to know!!

Advice from the vets always appreciated.

I think I've pinpointed what it is I struggle to understand about cake-eating.

So, in a committed relationship, it's fair for each person to expect certain things of the other - marriage is a contract as well as a covenant. I'm going to be my husband's wife, with all that that entails, on the assumption he's also going to be my husband. One or both of us might drop the ball from time to time and neglect our responsibilities, but generally, that's how it is and we both commit to that and agree on it.

Then BD happens. Marriage as we know it is dead. We might struggle to accept that, but eventually, we do. Which means husband does not want to be a husband, so he doesn't get a wife. Yes - that makes sense to me.

But the wife - she stands and waits. She's faithful. And eventually R starts to happen. Which doesn't involve resurrecting an old marriage, but building a new one. Dating.

And dating might look a lot like cake-eating - two people trying to size each other up, offering just a little, coming close then moving away again to process, to think, to recover. If I was dating someone and there was some form of 'no, we're not going to hold hands and watch the sunset together unless you commit to marriage and all that entails, today,' or 'no, I won't respond to any of your messages unless they contain a direct question about money and then I will reply with a one word answer and that won't change until you promise me commitment and fidelity and husbandly care and cherishing for the rest of our lives,' then it would be a CRAZY situation. How can the LBS know they want to R unless they get a little closer to the WS and see what is on offer? How can the WS decide if they do want to R unless they get a little closer to the LBS and see what has changed?

I'm not in that situation myself, obviously, and my H was very clearly offering not much at all so the situation is clearer with me and him than it is with you. But I can well see why it is an incredibly difficult line to draw out.

Alison I think you perfectly articulated the thoughts I've had.

Reading this with interest. That emotional stability is something I am really struggling with at the moment, I was there for a while but I've had a spiralling recently, and that is no good for anyone. I'm glad you have that, hope. You sound like you're being thoughtful about your interactions, which is good. I know it's not possible to keep expectations at zero, but maybe low expectations and no thoughts about the future is where it's at?

Originally Posted by AlisonUK

How can the LBS know they want to R unless they get a little closer to the WS and see what is on offer? How can the WS decide if they do want to R unless they get a little closer to the LBS and see what has changed?

This is why R sounds so daunting and impossible to me. As you put it so well, it doesn't work if you go into the process assuming it is a return to the old MR. It *has* to be like dating somebody new, which also includes starting off without M expectations. Incredibly awkward when you have a long history with somebody...

You also put it so well that both the LBS and the WAS need to see what is on offer, and what has changed? My W has been clear in MC what has hurt her so much, and I do hope over time to address those hurts. But I also need to see that she is willing to come to the table, and I need to understand whether she is going to approach this with an open heart and mind, or else this will not a relationship worth pursuing for me. What keeps me positive is at least we are in MC where I can assess whether things are changing over time, or whether she continues to blame me 100% for the MR failure.

I think that's the paradox of letting go of the rope. The old relationship needs to be fully and properly dead and grieved for and both of you integrate the changes that happen for you as a result of that, before a new relationship can be embarked upon and considered.

I know I won't feel happy to R with H until and unless I see what has changed and what he is willing to offer. I'm not even looking his way at the moment, out of self-protection - and perhaps that is how it will stay for us.

The problem in my sitch is that H is still clinging to the old R. He wants to talk about it all the time. I know I've mentioned earlier but I put a stop to that. I validated and validated his feelings, but it got to a point where it was just another list of my failures and I told them that I was not interested in hearing it anymore given that he was "done". (his words).

He said that he could respect that. Now he likes to talk about old times with anyone who will listen. I also feel him reaching out to me sometimes. It's very hard not to respond to that.

We MUST keep our expectations at zero to fully detach. Heck, sometimes I keep them at negative zero (not sure it's healthy or helpful) but when he comes over I imagine that he will be in the most foul mood and I gird my loins. I've yet to be disappointed with that approach because if he is sunshine and daisies, I am thrilled, if he's crabby and cranky, well, I'm girded up and I can respond appropriately.

I have told him (twice that I can remember) that I will not be spoken to in that way when he was rude. I was calm and just said, "I don't like it when you speak to me like that, if you can't be polite, you will have to leave". Guess what? He apologized and turned it around.

Had he left, I would have been fine, too.

Dilly, actually - everyone reading - this is not a perfect process. I've blown it more times than I can count. But I love the feeling of being able to manage my emotions and it was worth the 2 years DBing to get here. Keep doing what is working, and stop doing what isn't working. That is a major point I got from the books. Also, I still keep Sandi's Rules on standby.

I want to thank you all for contributing to this convo. It's really beautiful how much we are learning about ourselves and each other.

It is beautiful, thank you Hope

I like the negative expectations, as an optimist I should practice that I think. And I have to practice the standing up for myself with the rudeness and the R talks, you're so right that after a certain stage validating their complaints probably just reinforces their thinking instead of moving on.
Keep on keeping on, sounds like it's currently working for you x

Dilly it's a switch for me - I am an eternal optimist. The optimism I reserve for myself - I can control. But him, well, my name says it all - I hope we are able to have a R in the future, but I'm not waiting for it or setting my anchor to it.

Just spent 2 days with him working on these down trees. I'm feeling like it was too much time right now. He just left and I am glad he's not coming back. Being around him as things are I prefer to take in small doses. I realized while he was out of town that I was way more calm.

So I'm still working on regulating around him. Not as detached as I need/would like to be.

I know how you feel hope, that is a lot of time together and sounds like you need a break from him. They're not the only ones needing space...I like your idea of saving your optimism for yourself

Hope, I am a conflicted optimist too. I always think that things are getting better between my wife and me, and then we go to MC and she tells the counselor that nothing is getting better. Then I am crushed. I have been stopping the MC sessions, but without them I never know if things are getting better or I am just being delusionally optimistic.

This is a great conversation, and one that has had me thinking over the last couple days. It is confusing because while we are all in (or were) the same situation, there are also differences. The reason I tend to guide people back to Sandi's rules, is because that is a template that applies to all of us (whether we have a walkaway, a wayward, or despite how much time has passed). I think by the time people get here they are usually in the LRT and need to go dark, and Sandi's rules take that into account. You can follow the rules and not initiate any contact, and when there is contact, it is a simple guide on how to be pleasant (so they want to come back), however it is also important to be (act) detached, so they get the idea you could be moving on. I don't know how many of us ever reach "detachment," because let's face it, we are posting here because we want to save our M (ie still attached or at least attached to the idea of them). I see detachment as a goal with many levels, not something you can turn on or off, and something we might need to fake until we make it. I don't know if people ever fully achieve it until the M is dead and gone and they have moved on to other Rs in their life.

The main question I am gathering in this convo is an interesting one and posters might have varying opinions on. How can you drop the rope and go dark, while simultaneously reminding them of what they are missing, so they want to come back? My thought on that is that you don't need to remind them or show them anything. They know. They might rewrite history and paint you to be the "bad guy," but that is more what they do to justify their actions, and not necessarily a core belief. I think having time together, family time, and allowing cake does more damage than good, and it outweighs the benefits of them feeling a loss of you. It is when they feel they have lost you, that they want to come back. It is strange indeed. When you allow the positive time together, you send the message that you are okay with the way things are and also that you are still plan B. No one wants plan B when they can have plan A! They might seem at times that they do -- when they temp check, text, flirt, seem affectionate or give you those sad puppy dog eyes (my H did that cr-p all along) -- but they are not coming back because you remind them of the time. They simply take that time, maybe even get an ego boost, and then retain plan A.

Think about it, if a man leaves his W and home for OW, and he still gets to have a nice relationship with his W and enjoy family time, why would he even want to end the A (or simple freedom if there is no longer A) and come back? He doesn't need to. He gets the benefit of having his own place, his freedom and doing whatever he wants, while also having the benefit of dates and family time when he feels like it. Simultaneously, he loses respect for his W. If she allows this, she is sending the message that she doesn't value herself enough to demand more in the relationship. It shows weakness and low confidence. That is not attractive to anyone. A strong and confident woman is not okay with her H leaving her and then coming and going as he pleases. She is naturally hurt and angry and she puts up boundaries to protect herself. She demands respect. She flips the scripts and makes him do the work of having to show her why she should even consider taking back. It took me 9-10 months to get it and once I did, it worked immediately.

That does not mean she should be cold, bitter or play hard to get. I would never suggest that. Perhaps indifferent at times or simply too busy to be bothered with him, yes, but angry or emotional, no. That was one of the mistakes that I made. I started off serving up cake and being desperate and needy. I allowed him to have family time, R talks and he saw my emotional process and instability. Then I did a 180 swung in the other direction and ignored him and showed him indifference, but with coldness and bitterness. It wasn't until I completely took my focus off of him and started to move on with my life without him, that things changed. I was showing him that I could be cordial and pleasant, but that I was detached and not interested in him anymore. He saw that I removed myself from plan B.

And I GAL and became F-cking Fabulous. I looked, walked, and dressed the part and had no time for him at all anymore. AND IT FELT AMAZING TOO! I will never forget the Firday evening he came to the house for the kids and I was dressed up, looking hot, and ready to go out. I held my head up high. I was also pleasant, and said hello back to him, but wasted no time. I quickly loved on my kids and said goodbye and then confidently got out of there. Wouldn't you know he followed me to my car and kept trying to hold a conversation? I was polite, listened and smiled, but really, dude, I have to go out and do other things! Bye bye now. .... He looked like he had been punched in the gut ....

Does this make more sense? .... Ladies, remove yourself from Plan B and be the best gosh d-amn Plan A. Let him go and don't bother with him. If he likes what he sees, he should be so lucky for you to reconsider him. Then he needs to actually do the work.

The old M is dead. You cannot hang on to that and go back to it now. You also cannot simply pretend it never existed and start dating them again as tho they are a new person in your life. The history is there, it is painful, and it will need to be addressed. That is why piecing is it's own struggle. You have to build a new R together while fleshing out the problems of the last one. You need two strong people that are 100% in it to tackle this kind of work.

Blu

These are wise and helpful words, Blu.

I think I am swinging rapidly into coldness. I know I am polite when I see my H, and I know I could be warmer, but I'm just brisk and civil. I concentrate on the children and sometimes I even refuse to make eye contact with him. It's because I am hurt and angry with him, and at the moment a stone thick wall is the healthiest thing I can manage. I hope the civil interactions we had this weekend over Youngest's birthday are a turning corner, but it is only two weeks since his last tantrum in my house, so there's been no time at all for him to turn over the new leaf that I require if he's to be permitted any closer to my heart.

Originally Posted by BluWave

Think about it, if a man leaves his W and home for OW, and he still gets to have a nice relationship with his W and enjoy family time, why would he even want to end the A (or simple freedom if there is no longer A) and come back? He doesn't need to. He gets the benefit of having his own place, his freedom and doing whatever he wants, while also having the benefit of dates and family time when he feels like it. Simultaneously, he loses respect for his W. If she allows this, she is sending the message that she doesn't value herself enough to demand more in the relationship. It shows weakness and low confidence. That is not attractive to anyone. A strong and confident woman is not okay with her H leaving her and then coming and going as he pleases. She is naturally hurt and angry and she puts up boundaries to protect herself. She demands respect. She flips the scripts and makes him do the work of having to show her why she should even consider taking back. It took me 9-10 months to get it and once I did, it worked immediately.

Blu,

I value your opinion immensely - so here's the thing. I am not hurt and angry anymore. I was at first but ironically, I have my own place, my freedom and I do whatever the heck I want. I'm enjoying this time immensely more than I would have guessed. I'm more confident, and definitely stronger. H has commented on this a LOT. He's naturally drawn to it. I can see it and feel it. I didn't feel this way at first, I was sad and wrecked and all that stuff, but I didn't show him that. Now, it's not an act at all. I really feel - good. At peace. In control of myself and able to manage my emotions.

I'm not trying to seem argumentative, I'm just wondering if you think should I force a NC boundary when I don't need it? Should I go all the way and not let him come over for family time and tell him no when he asks me out? I'm quite enjoying myself, and don't always accept the invites.

In the meantime, I am going to evaluate myself. I want to be sure that I am not accepting less-than. I feel good about where I am, but I hear you when you say a confident woman wouldn't accept this sitch.

Would love to hear your thoughts.

Alison,

It's been very recent for you to get where you are, so I would expect that cold is the best you can muster, but I'm telling you that I had to fake it at first (the happiness) and soon realized that I was actually, well, happy. Not with the situation, not with him, but just - a happy girl.

If you can muster every bit of control you can - and remind yourself that he does NOT control your emo thermometer, you will soon realize how much control you GAVE him, and time to take your power back.

I don't know if this makes sense - but in ET (the movie) ET and Elliot were attached emotionally to a point where one would literally feel everything the other did. I realized that I was my H's 'ET' - I had no idea!! But I found myself waiting to see where he was emotionally to respond in the same. Soon after I realized that, I decided that H would not get to dictate my moods for me. They are mine and I will feel them as I see fit.

This may seem silly, but awareness for me was the key. Once I was aware of what I was doing, I was able to make changes. Now, if I am in a good mood - NOTHING can sway me that H does. If by chance he rocks my boat, I have the strength to stuff it until I am alone. I would challenge myself - no matter who/what comes through the door, I would focus on all the amazing things in my life. Some days it was that I was still alive (true story! desperate times, those!!) And no matter what H threw at me - or how prickly he was, I just wouldn't let it sway my mood. I left him to his own.

I hope I"m making sense. I've had a crazy day but wanted to check in here. Also hope I'm not sounding like a no-it-all, just trying to share what has worked for me. Sounds like we have similar H's.

Originally Posted by Destroyd

Hope, I am a conflicted optimist too. I always think that things are getting better between my wife and me, and then we go to MC and she tells the counselor that nothing is getting better. Then I am crushed. I have been stopping the MC sessions, but without them I never know if things are getting better or I am just being delusionally optimistic.

When you stop wondering if they notice and just do it - you will be in a much better place. Another Stander taught me that.

I think it's good that you quit the MC sessions. They were not helping IMO. I think IC is where it's at and from what I've noticed, MC just gives them a box to check that they "tried everything" and/or gives them a venue to justify their actions.

Trust me - if you are changing your W will notice, but she won't say either way and it is more attractive if you don't worry if she's noticing. Confidence is sexy!! Are you getting better? Focus on that. You won't get smashed that way.

Hope: I love that you've reframed this as YOU having your freedom! I'm taking notes here. I know that Alison and other posters with younger kids feel like they've been left to do the heavy work of day to day parenting, but my kids are teens and pretty independent so I'm reframing taking my kids places as quality time to spend with them (in the car is where ds2 talks the most!) And other than that I do have a lot of freedom to do whatever I want. I have plenty of money, I have kind friends to do stuff with, I have interesting work. I spent a lot of time tiptoeing around H's moods and needs when he lived here, I need to reframe my life as having lots of freedom. I've also reframed my life as being 'full' instead of whining about being too busy (I hate it when people do that). I have stuff going on in my life which I have chosen to do, and if I haven't chosen it (like cleaning the toilet after my teens) then I can still choose to have a good attitude about it (because a clean toilet is more pleasant than the alternative!). Looking back I had a crap attitude about so many things in my life, doing a 180 is good for me here.

And the 2x4 is noted, Blu. You're leaving them all over the place, you must have strong biceps right now

Originally Posted by 97Hope

Alison,

It's been very recent for you to get where you are, so I would expect that cold is the best you can muster, but I'm telling you that I had to fake it at first (the happiness) and soon realized that I was actually, well, happy. Not with the situation, not with him, but just - a happy girl.

If you can muster every bit of control you can - and remind yourself that he does NOT control your emo thermometer, you will soon realize how much control you GAVE him, and time to take your power back.

I don't know if this makes sense - but in ET (the movie) ET and Elliot were attached emotionally to a point where one would literally feel everything the other did. I realized that I was my H's 'ET' - I had no idea!! But I found myself waiting to see where he was emotionally to respond in the same. Soon after I realized that, I decided that H would not get to dictate my moods for me. They are mine and I will feel them as I see fit.

This may seem silly, but awareness for me was the key. Once I was aware of what I was doing, I was able to make changes. Now, if I am in a good mood - NOTHING can sway me that H does. If by chance he rocks my boat, I have the strength to stuff it until I am alone. I would challenge myself - no matter who/what comes through the door, I would focus on all the amazing things in my life. Some days it was that I was still alive (true story! desperate times, those!!) And no matter what H threw at me - or how prickly he was, I just wouldn't let it sway my mood. I left him to his own.

I hope I"m making sense. I've had a crazy day but wanted to check in here. Also hope I'm not sounding like a no-it-all, just trying to share what has worked for me. Sounds like we have similar H's.

You're making perfect sense. And yes, the more I detach from my H the better I feel. He is depressed and miserable and irritable and anxious and doesn't know what he wants and isn't able to be consistently civil - but I'm NOT. I hope I can move towards being warmer with him at some point in the future, mainly because it is much better for our children for them to feel comfortable and not on edge when we're both together, and I have my contribution to make to that. But right now, I am concentrating on getting some space between his feelings and behaviours and my responses and reactions. I need to detach myself from whatever internal mess he's in, because it isn't my mess, isn't mine to fix and isn't mine to share.

The ET analogy is really really striking. I think we were like that. I'd get so anxious by his anger - or even the prospect of it - that in the end I could barely cope with him being tired after a day at work... I think I am mainly past that now, thank goodness.

Hi everyone.

I've been busy. Good and bad. I'm turning a corner.

After reading and re-reading this conversation I've decided to move out of the family home. I can't afford it, it's huge and I'm overwhelmed.

My s17 and I had a long talk last night. He said that I need to be prepared because H is looking at a place closer to us for a couple of months and then plans to move back into our house - but not with me. S17 told H that if he "kicks his mom out of the house he will never speak to him again" - I discussed how none of this is a surprise to me etc. but S is super angry at H. I listened and validated, answered questions, and encouraged him to continue to speak to his dad about his feelings etc.

But then I realized, a part of me is holding on to this house like it's my MR or like I'm still waiting for H to come back to me. By staying here I am not moving on. and I need to move on.

I don't want to, but I didn't want a lot of things.

We are looking at a house today at 4. It's wayyyy smaller, on a much smaller lot, but I can afford it and I won't have any more reasons to talk to H.

I've realized that these past 2 years I have been standing for my marriage and H hasn't changed one bit. Even though I do believe 100 percent that this is a MLC/anxiety/depression for him, he isn't doing the work necessary to be in a R with me.

I also realized that as much as I want a new R with him - deep down - I also know that who he is is not who I want to be with.

Guess this all just takes time and work to figure out.

As long as I live here, he will continue to come by (because I can't do this on my own) and have a reason to see me. I need to step away now.

If you pray, please pray for me. It's easier said than done, but I know what I would tell my dear friend. Get out of the way and let him sink or swim. So that's my next step.

I will see a L if this place looks promising and make sure I'm not giving up any rights to anything, but since H moved out in February and left me to deal with the majority of the work, I think it will be fine.

Wow, sounds like you have been doing a lot of soul searching hope. He wants to kick you out of the house? Ouch. Is he moving someone else in or moving in alone?
You sound sad but ready to move forward. Hugs. That sounds like it has been very, very hard for you. I admire you for not being angry and for encouraging your S to talk to his dad, I'm not sure I would be that nice.
A fresh start seems like it would be good for you, I often think of selling my house and moving somewhere else, but for now I need to stay put for the kids for at least the next year. The memories weigh you down I think, I hope it's easier to start afresh in a new environment. Lots of hugs xxx

Hope... I think you are absolutely doing the right thing and that moving away from the memories into a place that is just yours will do you a world of good and be a giant step in your journey towards detachment and a new R...whether that be with a new and improved H or some other lucky guy you have yet to meet. Embrace the discomfort you feel...it means you are heading for a change...a new life...a new you. Try to think of it as an adventure and an opportunity. That�s what I�ve been doing and it has really helped me. The ink is almost dry on my divorce papers and my STBXH is marrying his OW next July apparently. It barely bothered me when I found out but had it been six months ago, I would have been devastated. That�s why GAL and 180s are so important...for you. Good luck!!! You can do this!!!

Hi Dilly!! I really want to stay here for my S17 but he doesn't ever want to live with his dad again. No matter what. Ugh. He shared that with me last night.

Ideally, I'd stay here for one more year so he can graduate. He's my youngest, so after that I can be flexible.

The house we went to was a total bomb. lol S17 said it would be fine and I said, you know, Tom Petty said it best - we do not have to live like refugees!! We will be great, but not in that place.

Deja, that's exactly how I'm looking at this! An adventure and opportunity to have the R I've always wanted. It is NOT with my H right now that's for darn sure!! After last week, I need to stop dating him. Nothing happened, we just had a nice convo with Blu.

In the meantime, I'm working on just not being here when he comes over and I'm going to have to have the conversation about him not just showing up and limiting his time here. It will have to be soon as he's planning on moving into a rental 2 miles away.

Question for everyone: Am I reacting to his actions? That's what I don't want to do. I feel like I take 2 steps forward - 1 back in this area. I'd love to get to a place where I'm not reacting to what he does/doesn't do, and this feels like he's holding all the cards. I don't like it. Makes me feel pinched.

Sounds like you've been doing a lot of soul searching, and I can't argue with your conclusions. The fact that he'd speak to his 17 year old son about his plans - plans that concern you, and emotionally affect his son - without putting you in the picture first speaks volumes. It's avoidant and childish and selfish and again provides evidence that he's not operating on a level that makes him remotely worthy of you. I'm not surprised your son is angry.

On the other hand, it does sound like the house you live in needs a lot of work that means it's only suitable for a couple.

Originally Posted by 97Hope

As long as I live here, he will continue to come by (because I can't do this on my own) and have a reason to see me. I need to step away now.

Your move might provide you with some clarity. The friendly contact you've been having might continue, and you'll know it is because he wants to see you and not because he needs to do some work in the house. You might not want to see him, of course (and I wouldn't blame you) but it could give you that extra physical separation that would be healthy and help you see where the land lies.

I wish you and your son well.

97Hope

I don't think it's a reaction to him but a positive action to move forward with your life.

I too have to leave the marital home because of his actions. And I felt like a victim. So, for me, knowledge was power and resulted in a shift of mindset.

I saw an IFA. I could afford to live in this house at a pinch. A harsh pinch. And have no money for the GAL activities and have a worry about what was going to need fixing next. Or I could sell, rent for a short period. Get his sorry backside into court and when I know the final settlement figure, then go and buy the house that I want (with a mortgage) So, I chose option 2.

He pays nothing to the house, his child etc but I can manage in the short term. But I feel so free. I made a choice. I no longer feel like his victim. I can move forward.

This financial / house stuff was my final fear preventing me from truly moving forward.

Flip the dynamic. Don't be a victim to this man's actions. If moving means you can have that extra security and comfort and live your life, then it is the right choice for you. Your S wants to see his Mum happy. He only needs a floor to throw his clothes on!!...and his loving mum.

Hope,

I am glad to read that you are turning a corner and moving forward. Hey, even 2 steps fwd and 1 step back, is still forward movement! Two years is a long time, but in relation to a M and family and people we know for most of our lifetime, it's not really that long when you think about it. You most likely planned on living in your home now with H for many, many years, so this change is still unsettling. I agree that it is okay to embrace discomfort because it means change is coming. We are wired to avoid discomfort, but working through it can be more realistic and more therapeutic. Why? Because, let's face it, we can't always avoid it. This sitch that youre in now is the result of another person's actions and we can't control them. Working through the fallout of it, will make you stronger.

To answer your question if you are reacting to his actions, I would say yes and no. Most of what you are doing are reactions to his actions because, how can they not be? He left the M, he moved out, he comes and goes, it sounds like you need his work to maintain the property/animals, and now he is moving closer. I think it would be impossible not to react to that. However, if your goal is to create a situation where he can no longer have this affect on you, then yes, it does sound like you are going to have to make some changes. I think you should give yourself a break and just do what is easiest for you. Definitely leave when he comes around. You shouldn't have to do that, but if you need his help with the farm (it is a farm, yes?) then just let him do that work and leave him be.

If you want to ask him to no longer come over than it might be easier to avoid an uncomfortable convo and send him a more formal email. It also leaves little room for negotiation and shows him you mean business. He might start to pick up on a shift in your energy, and he may even notice you pulling away, and that is fine. I think it's a misconception that when they pick up on "losing" us they will more likely give up. I tend to think the opposite, and that that is often when they start to come around again.

It is unfortunate that he has these convos with your son. That bothers me too. Kids do not want to be involved in their parents baggage, teens included in that. It may not be that your son never wants to live with him again, but he may just be frustrated with how selfish he has been for the last couple years. Your son might also feel protective over you and want to show you his loyalty. My guess is that if you and H ever R, then your son would be amenable to that.

In the mean time, as you make these bigger decisions and are asking yourself if they are reactions to him verses your authentic choices, think about how his response could make you feel. Can you make a decision and be okay with the consequences and his reactions, whatever they may be? Meaning when you make the choice to do something, do so and accept that he could have any sort of reaction but that he will not change/influence your course as you continue into it. That is the goal anyhow.

Blu

Originally Posted by Yorkie

Flip the dynamic. Don't be a victim to this man's actions. If moving means you can have that extra security and comfort and live your life, then it is the right choice for you. Your S wants to see his Mum happy. He only needs a floor to throw his clothes on!!...and his loving mum.

Hi Yorkie!!

H pays for everything as it is so it is actually security and comfort for me to stay where I am. I'm not looking forward to going back to work full-time. I was a SAHM before and after I put him through professional school. That's what I mean about not letting him dictate what I do/where I live etc.

You are so right, S definitely only wants to see me happy and have a place to dump clothes!! LOL

Originally Posted by BluWave

I think you should give yourself a break and just do what is easiest for you. Definitely leave when he comes around. You shouldn't have to do that, but if you need his help with the farm (it is a farm, yes?) then just let him do that work and leave him be.

I've been reading and re-reading this convo thread for the past few days. I took some time, went to a friends house, went to a cookout, church etc. and really thought about what I want. I want to stay here until S17 graduated. One more year. That is what I asked for initially, and that is what I'm going to insist on. I have some legal recourse if he doesn't grant that in the D (if he even files...it's been a month approx. since he last brought it up).

Originally Posted by BluWave

If you want to ask him to no longer come over than it might be easier to avoid an uncomfortable convo and send him a more formal email. It also leaves little room for negotiation and shows him you mean business. He might start to pick up on a shift in your energy, and he may even notice you pulling away, and that is fine. I think it's a misconception that when they pick up on "losing" us they will more likely give up. I tend to think the opposite, and that that is often when they start to come around again.

Actually, this thrills me. The idea of him no longer just showing up feels like freedom in a cup. I am ok if it pushes him further away. It has taken me a while to get here, but when I'm honest, I don't feel like dealing with his emotions/wants/desires. He's completely selfish and self-serving and he can feel whatever he feels...but he needs to do it elsewhere. I think it will be a relief to me. I could be wrong, but I don't think so. At any rate, I'm just feeling like him coming around is not good for me. Now, what I am thinking about is having a schedule so we can get the work done around here (we have a big ranch) but it's not just as he likes. He will definitely have a reaction to it, but I'm not bothered by it. Kind of interesting now when he has a reaction I'm thinking "what are you gonna do? Divorce me? Jeez, you already dropped that bomb little man"

Originally Posted by BluWave

In the mean time, as you make these bigger decisions and are asking yourself if they are reactions to him verses your authentic choices, think about how his response could make you feel. Can you make a decision and be okay with the consequences and his reactions, whatever they may be? Meaning when you make the choice to do something, do so and accept that he could have any sort of reaction but that he will not change/influence your course as you continue into it. That is the goal anyhow.

And after considering available/possible reactions, I am ok with whatever he does. As I stated above, his reactions are his. They don't scare me anymore. He's already left the MR. Walking that out in my head really helped me gain clarity. I was looking at a smaller place because of him, not because that's what I want.

Our older boys are moving back this month and next month. The last thing I need to do is leave right now. We are going to stay here together for one month (s22, his wife and baby) and then they all have rentals in August.

I must slow down with my actions. When I step back and consider everything, I can see this for what it is.

Thank you all so much for your support, comments and advice. You know what I'm going through like no one else so you understand so much.

Stay strong, people. It's crazy out there!! <3

Originally Posted by AlisonUK

Your move might provide you with some clarity. The friendly contact you've been having might continue, and you'll know it is because he wants to see you and not because he needs to do some work in the house. You might not want to see him, of course (and I wouldn't blame you) but it could give you that extra physical separation that would be healthy and help you see where the land lies.

While I was thinking about this I realized that I don't care what he wants right now. I don't even want to tell him that it's me wanting the extra physical separation now. I just want to do it. I'm still trying to find the balance between cake-eating and being a lighthouse. (so so difficult for me!!).

Decided to just not be available to him. Easier than moving out and I don't want to do that any way.

Spoke with S22 & DIL's and let them know that when they get here, we will not have "family fun" time with H. They completely understood and said of course not! They will work out time with their dad apart from me. I'm so proud of them!!

H will for sure react to that, but I can't help him. Actions have consequences.

Maybe it was one of Blu's 2x4's : )

Journaling/musing,

As he mows the grass and trims the hedges and weeds the flower beds, I enjoyed time with my friends, church and a nice nap. I went out and fed the horses, dropped mineral for the cattle and spent some time checking fence-lines etc. while he was finishing up other things.

I want to weigh all of my options before I tell him not to come around. The kids have offered to help when they move back so I really don't need to do anything (they will be here in 2 weeks) today. I'm glad I have this place to clear my head. I have a new idea every 5 minutes and I have never been pleased with my emotional decisions.

I think my emotions make terrible decision makers.

If I can continue to work on detachment, I wonder if it will matter when he is here/isn't here and if I have to throw up hard boundaries about when he comes over.

Going to go back and read my own sitch from the beginning and see where I am as opposed to where I started.

Also going to note when I decide I need to do something, how I arrived at that decision. I do think Blu was right, sometimes it is in reaction to him, but I doesn't always have to be.

God Bless you and keep you all.

I have faith in you, 97Hope!

You've been doing this long enough, and self reflecting and self-caring deeply enough to know when you are running on emotion and reactivity, and to know when you're making a practical change that best suits you and your future goals. It doesn't sound like you're in urgent financial difficulty, so you can afford to take some time to mull over your decision and make it slowly. And yes - make it in privacy. There's no need to discuss this with your H. He isn't acting as a husband, which means he doesn't get the privilege of collaborating with you as you shape and build your life.

It sounds like you have a good short term plan - help from your sons, less 'family' time with H and some boundaries about the time you spend together when he's there to work at the family farm. These are ways you are setting boundaries and protecting yourself for the next year, which is when your 17 yo will go to college, right? They sound sensible to me - and what's great is that you feel you can do what you need to do no matter what your H's response is or isn't.

Do you have a longer term plan for your future after s moves out? Have you had legal information about what you're entitled to in terms of maintenance and a settlement, should it come to that? Are you worried your H might get into debt or otherwise act irresponsibly and do you have a need to factor that into your decision making process? I hate to ask this - but if there's an OW or a risk of one, do you need to wonder what might happen if he creates another financial responsibility for himself and how that may affect your youngest's college tuition? You might not want to file yourself, but knowing what the future might look like if your H does decide to file might help you prepare for that. It might also be a positive process for you. I have been really inspired by the way that Yail has been dreaming about and moving towards her ideal future on her thread. I'm not there yet myself but I look forward to getting there!

Originally Posted by AlisonUK

Do you have a longer term plan for your future after s moves out? Have you had legal information about what you're entitled to in terms of maintenance and a settlement, should it come to that? Are you worried your H might get into debt or otherwise act irresponsibly and do you have a need to factor that into your decision making process? I hate to ask this - but if there's an OW or a risk of one, do you need to wonder what might happen if he creates another financial responsibility for himself and how that may affect your youngest's college tuition? You might not want to file yourself, but knowing what the future might look like if your H does decide to file might help you prepare for that. It might also be a positive process for you. I have been really inspired by the way that Yail has been dreaming about and moving towards her ideal future on her thread. I'm not there yet myself but I look forward to getting there!

No plans for long-term. I can only do day-by-day, TBH. When I go too far out, I start to crack. I have some vague wishes, but nothing that needs a plan. I.e. - find a place in proximity to the kids, but not on top of H etc. I'm currently getting my certification in Biblical Counseling - so my plans are for no matter what, nothing that hinges on what H does/doesn't do. That's one way I can cope with this whole thing. Finding what I want for my future that doesn't need H to do something. I'm ok either way at this point - although sometimes the idea of life with him is scarier than a life without him. So I just stay in the moment ; )

Journaling,

H told me tonight that he is looking at switching to a new mobile service provider and "what do you want to do?" I asked him do you want me off of the account?". He said "Well that sounds bad when you say it like that" - gee, ya think? I am not working, have only had one consulting job in the past 7 years and that was after I put him through school.

He's crazy. We did some D talk and he offered me a ridiculous settlement. I told him I don't want this, but if you go that road, what you offered me is a slap in the face. Without going into details, I let him know that I will not be agreeing to anything he provides to me unless my L agrees to it and that this is not going to go down over tea and biscuits.

Not that I'm punishing him, but I worked very hard to get us where we are and I will not be put out without what is fair to me. (I didn't say this out loud)

After a calm discussion about what he thinks I want and what he's wiling to "give" I said that I didn't know why he didn't work this hard at the marriage, because he's working overtime at ending it. Just when our kids are moving down here and all he's ever talked about in 23 years is sitting on the porch together at our ranch watching the grands play. I told him that I though this was everything he ever wanted and he said - it is. He put on his sunglasses and I saw a tear roll down his cheek.

He then really started to cry and said he had to go. I don't cry anymore to or in front of him. I don't remember when I stopped.

If he files (he now says he only gave a verbal to the L, hasn't hired him yet) this will not turn out like he thinks. I know what I'm entitled to. More than that, though, the boys are very upset with him and youngest can't even look at him. He is losing everything he loves.

Just going to step back and let him go off the cliff. I'm sad for him, but I still have peace. No fear like before. I now know what I'm worth. And it's a {censored} of a lot more than he thinks.

Wow. Your H really does meet the definition of someone wanting to have their cake and eat it, doesn't he?

I'm not surprised you're moving towards more distance from him. And I am so glad you are not feeling fear. You are absolutely correct that you shouldn't' agree to any settlement without having a L look over it. You supported him, made a home for him and raised his children. I don't know what the law is like in your area, but here, you'd be entitled to half of all assets and pensions as a starting point, perhaps more if you are housing minor children, and child maintenance until the youngest is of age. I know your son is older. And it seems your H is meeting his financial responsibilities right now. But it seems to me you'd be more secure financially if you were divorced and that's going to come as a nasty shock to him.

Originally Posted by AlisonUK

Wow. Your H really does meet the definition of someone wanting to have their cake and eat it, doesn't he?

His face is in the encyclopedia next to the entry.

Originally Posted by AlisonUK

But it seems to me you'd be more secure financially if you were divorced and that's going to come as a nasty shock to him.

You know I don't want a D, but that shock he would receive does give me a little comfort. It's about time he was knocked off of his donkey.

I woke up this morning feeling gross and sad. The good news is - I have a lot of jobs around the ranch to do today, when I work, I crank up the music and sing my head off on the tractor. Today is about not staying in the sad.

Feeling better about the mobile phone....evil grin.

I don't even like having a mobile. I have a land-line and I'm happy to use it. When I'm driving or out in town I don't answer anyway so this simplifies my life a lot. If I have an emergency when I travel, etc. I'll have to go old school and ask someone to call 911 for me like we did in olden times.

The person that texts me the most is H so if he wants me off of his plan, he can go for it. lol He will no longer be able to ask me about the rainfall or check to see where I am when I'm not here.

I will be less available to him, and it will be his own doing. I know this guy. He doesn't realize how much that will irk him. This might be a blessing in disguise - for me.

I had to take a pause from thinking about it like another nail in the coffin. The horse is well and truly dead. Doesn't matter how many more nails get driven in at this point. (so hard to bring myself around sometimes!! The M is dead. This is just a new way that H is reinforcing his separateness, he doesn't even live here, so this is more of the same behavior. Stop being surprised at what he will do. ugh)

Still hurts that he's such a dingle hopper, but these are his choices and I'm doing my best with the painful part of all this. Not as bad as it was previously when it would give me sad stomach and I couldn't eat for days, so I'm thankful for that.

Focusing on the kids getting here next week!! I'm flying up and driving back down with them. I'm so excited I could burst.

Yessss love this post. You're absolutely right that H hasn't realized this will only hurt him, and not touch you at all. I fully support you just letting this go/happen without comment.

"doing my best with the painful part" is a pretty apt description. I might use it. It acknowledges both the pain and the work to push past it. I like it.

Yail!!! Thanks for the support!

97Hope - you're doing so well. Dingle hopper had me laughing right out loud!!!

I'm trying not to push past my pain - given that all my techniques for resolving it or avoiding it are unhealthy. When I made decisions based on getting out of pain, they're never good ones. Instead, I am trying just to sit with it and wait for it to pass. Maybe they are growing pains and time will take them away. I know I'm a better, more thoughtful, more self-reliant person as a result of this separation. Perhaps even in time I will learn to be grateful for it, because it's helped me tackle and resolve a lot of stuff I was using another person and a relationship to medicate. I don't know yet.

I wish you well!

Journaling,

Saw the email where he wants to proceed with D. Allowing it to wash over me. This is not a surprise. I am in a great deal of pain. Have an IC appt on Tuesday. Meeting with L tomorrow first thing.

I know I will be ok. God has been faithful to me, even if my H hasn't. I pray for him. I know he will wake up one day with deep regret, as someone who has loved him for 23 years, I wish he wouldn't do it to himself, but I know that now it's time to completely let go. Maybe should have done that a long time ago but I'm in such a better place than I was 2 years ago and wouldn't trade that time for anything. I did what I knew to be right, fair and kind. I did what I would have wanted him to do, what I wanted him to do - when I was struggling with depression.

I'm ok with how I've walked through the last 2 years. My faith is strong. I'm not excited about my future but I will get there.

If you pray, please pray for my family. All of us. As I look ahead I am reminded of all the stories I have been reading here and when reconciliation wasn't possible, the DBers were in a much better place.

I'm not saying goodbye, I'll still need you guys, and hope to help others here, just wanted to say THANK YOU for walking through this with me.

My CAGD people, stay strong and I'm about to shred it. lol I no longer have a choice. Big hugs to everyone hurting today.

Alison, you get stronger every day. You also look for ways to help others here (and I'm sure where you live). I'm with you, I don't push past the pain, I've learned that I have to go right through the (censored).

Hope - just stopping by to let you know I appreciate your words of advice and support in my own sitch. I just found your sitch now, and will read and catch up. I'll stop by again later when I am caught up. I will keep your family in my prayers.

You are a gift to me

oh 97Hope - that is hard. I know you will take care of yourself and seek the support that you need and continue to care for your children and your friends, all the way through this. I know you'll be dignified and calm and kind.

But if in the midst of all that, you need to take your tractor out and do some damage to a heap of soil, well, I think that would probably be okay.

I hope your meeting with the L went well. Make sure you are putting your own needs first. Your H will sink or swim on his own and you don't need to take care of him emotionally or financially.

(((97HOPE))). So sorry Hope... I remember the day my STBXH handed me a legal separation agreement. It made it very real very fast. I agree with you. I think he will wake up one day with regret. You can�t think about that though. You need to put yourself first now and make sure you get a fair settlement in your D. Keep reading the other sitchs...it will help. If you had asked me how I would be doing seven months after getting those papers, I would never have guessed that I would be doing this well. Stay the course. Count your blessings. KNOW that you will get through this and you WILL heal from it and be a better person because of it. And you WILL be happy again. Sending you lots of positive energy and long distance (((HUGS))).

97 you conduct yourself with such grace and compassion. I'm glad to hear you're allowing yourself to feel the pain. I hope this wave is a brief one, but we don't really have as much control on that as we'd like.

Your sentence, "This is not a surprise" struck me. So many times I have calmed myself by reminding my heart that nothing has changed - this has been proceeding for a very long time. The information is not new, it just is awful to have these solid reminders whenever a concrete step is taken. You/I made it through the past ___ months and you/I will make it through the next ___months.

These steps forward are both gut-wrenching (I had a friend call divorce "excrutiating". Yep. That's the word) but also weirdly necessary. I don't want to remain stuck or playing a waiting game, and I don't think you do either. There is Standing and then there is Standing Still. There is too much beauty in this world to allow ourselves to Stand Still.

You don't have to force yourself to be excited about your future yet. But I do hope you can find one tiny thing that you allow yourself to be excited about. Maybe it's a new pet friend. Or a trip. Or just something you've really been wanting to do/buy/experience for a long long time. But I hope you push yourself to feel excitement over it, and allow yourself that feeling of anticipation and hope.

Oh hope, I hope you are OK. That is so very, very hard for you, my heart goes out to you (and TBH I am expecting to be in the same place as you at some stage and I hope I handle it with as much strength as you have). I know what you mean about thinking your H will one day wake up and hate himself for these actions, we know the good men they have been before this pain and cruelty and it is so hard to see them destroy their lives and their families when it goes against all their values. But we are not in a place to rescue them, we have to leave them be and live for ourselves. This is definitely the hardest thing we have ever faced, but we are strong, strong women who can act with dignity and compassion and bravery in the face of this agony. Big big hugs ((()))

Hello my old friends! I am divorced! (almost). My attorney insisted that I not post anything online here, stop posting on all social media etc. until after the divorce was final.

I think that was excellent advice as XH's attorney attempted to paint me as a lunatic.

Update: I filed July 2019, went to final hearing October 2020 - Covid19 and a deployment pushed things, and the fact that he didn't think I was entitled to 1/2 (eye roll here).

We did one mediation and it was a huge waste of money. Court was pretty bad but not as bad as I anticipated. To anyone looking at court, mediation, the whole process - breathe. Drink water. exercise (anything! it helps).

I moved out of the family home the end of October. I am now looking for a job as a cop! Oh...did I mention I enrolled in the police academy? LOL

I was looking for work in my field (anthropology) and could NOT find a job. I've always been passionate about criminal justice and last February I made the decision.

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times. Seriously. It was so hard physically and mentally but it challenged me in ways I didn't know were possible.

I am so much stronger than the Hope I was almost 4 years ago when this all started.

I will update more as I am able. I just wanted to let my people here know that you helped me so much. I never stopped thinking about you. I did come here and tried to read your updates as much as possible and hated to not comment.

To anyone new here...you WILL be ok. No matter what. I truly believed that my X would have a change of heart, but I am ok. I have peace and I am actually better off mentally than the 3 years of busting. But I did it following the book and by listening to the 2x4's from my friends here.

Don't give up on yourself. Stay connected with your support groups wherever they are, however you must, and remember, you didn't break them, you can't fix them.

xoxo

Hope!

I am so glad you came back and updated! It is wonderful to hear (read) from you again. I always wonder and worry what happens to people when they disappear.

And what a great update! You are moving forward. Congratulations on your new and challenging career path. Please keep us updated. Perhaps you can still advise others and newbies?

Any thoughts on dating again?

Blu

((((Blu))) HI!!! I am not ready to date. I am still working through grief stages and all that entails. I am not lonely for the most part, I've been used to being on my own even while married.

I have noticed a couple of attractive men, but am just not interested. Still trying to let go of the X so I think it's better to just wait.

You helped me so much it's time I share what I can!! I know that it will be difficult for some of the newbies to hear that I'm now divorced, but I have zero regrets! (I can't say the same for XH although I don't ever talk to him anymore, unless it's at the kids and we don't talk about stuff).

I did finally conquer 'going dark' but it was not a pretty or seamless process. In fact, X texted a pic last week about how I organized the Christmas decorations in storage and I just completely ignored it. Even up to a month ago, I would entertain his attempts to communicate and that got me in trouble. (as in, we were at a mutual party and I slept with him) yikes! (about 3 months ago).

I'm going to start looking at the newcomers page and see where I an offer support, as you and so many did for me.

I am on the other side, mostly, still have some tough days, but GAL was what I had to do and it saved my life.

Things I learned along the way:

I received a LOT of advice. The problem with some of it was that it just wasn't practical. A lot of advice concerned "let the lawyers handle it". My attorney charges $300 per hour, so as much as it stunk sometimes, I would try and work with X or just let things go.

I don't regret this. I knew deep down (after careful thought and consideration) what I could live with and what (for my mental health) I had to simply let go of.

I didn't relent on the property settlement. I put my X through professional school and put up with a lot of crap. I did have to swallow a couple of things that he hid, but in the grand scheme it was worth the price, to me.

My dad said something that really helped:

"those things that you lose or leave behind will not change your life significantly".

I've only been in this apartment since late October, but I am glad I didn't take much. I have a very simple, peaceful existence here and have everything that I need. He kept the ranch and that was hard to leave but realistically, I couldn't take care of it on my own, nor could I have afforded it.

I am still mourning the loss of dream, but it has become profoundly more clear that I don't miss him, I miss who he could have been. I actually have my S19 to thank for that. I was crying one day and he came over unexpectedly. I've been honest with him and my other 2 sons and he asked what was wrong. I said "some days I just miss your dad. it's just part of it" and my son said "What do you miss, though? He didn't treat you right and he was not a good husband".

Big helpful thing for me was being realistic about my X while I was standing. I had to be honest about what I was willing to stand for and what I would accept from him long term.

When he didn't turn it around, I realized that I no longer wanted that life with him and I was able to find peace in my days. One prime example was going to a party and realizing that I was having fun and NOT seeing him flirting with the pretty young girl there. That was always a nightmare that I didn't realize how bad it was until I was free.

To anyone still reading that is going thought the early days, you will find joy. GAL, detach and spend time with yourself, honestly, and figure out what you want from this life. Detaching is a process, but the more you work toward that end, the clearer things become.

I'll keep posting hoping that my journey can help. Please let me know if you want any encouragement.

Me: 46 H: 43
Married: 24 Yrs.
BD #1,2,3: 2012
RECON: 2012
BD#4: 2017
Filed: 2019 (me)
Divorce Pending 2020

There is peace in putting the burden of his healing down.

Received an email asking that I remove myself from the cell phone account.

X began the letter with congratulations on a state exam that I did great on and threw in a phrase we used to use, and ended it with merry christmas!

I responded to the email like he was an accountant. (we are still under temporary orders, so I will take care of it after final decree as per the judge's orders)

I cried for 30 minutes and then I went for a short run.

A friend said this "He can't see beyond the end of his own nose"

I think that's true for so many WAS's.

Hope you are all coping with your days and finding joy and peace in the small things.

What I would have done differently:

Something that I have been thinking about is how to use my situation for the good, and I didn't have a crystal ball back when this started, but I have what I know now.

One thing that I would definitely have done is read up on 'triangulation' and not get involved in my son and H's relationships. For the longest time I was a 'buffer' between them (3 sons) and their dad.

This has proven to bite me in the backside as I never allowed them to see their dad for who he is/was. When he left I made excuses for him and I softened it. I continuously told them to offer grace and love without really validating their own feelings of betrayal and hurt.

If I had to do it over again - I wouldn't disparage him, or tell-all....but I would not have interfered. I would have been honest (age appropriate) and not protected him. I would have validated their feelings.

I know now that what I did was trying to stay on the same "team" as my spouse. I always thought "united front in front of the kids" - which, I still believe, but not when you are dealing with adultery, abuse, abandonment or addiction.

I learned a valuable lesson in IC. When the boys come to me with a problem with their dad - I say "your relationship with him is your relationship with dad. our relationship is separate" I'm here for you. I love you and support you in your decisions.

They are all young adults now 19,22,28 - I allow them to talk, for sure, but I just encourage them to navigate their own boundaries and remind them that they have agency. That boundaries are loving and they don't have to pretend that the emperor has a nice coat.

Hi Hope!

Thanks for stopping by my thread in MLC... I read your threads from the beginning the other day and empathize so much with your journey. You sound strong and wise at the end of it all, which is a beacon for me in my sitch.

And your latest post is something I needed to read tonight. I have been considering my boundaries and one of the ones I have struggled with the most is how to navigate the children's feelings towards H and what he is doing, as well as acting as an intermediary for their relationship with H. They are much younger than your boys, but nonetheless wise little souls who are able to articulate their feelings with astonishing accuracy.

Convincing them that the emperor is indeed wearing clothes is only gaslighting them and their understanding of the situation. But on the same hand, I don't want to add to their anger towards H. It is an awfully fine line, isn't it? And your musing on wanting to be on the same team really resonated with me. I too have the 'united front' belief, but I am starting to question if it is my own selfish fear that is keeping me on H's team all the time (there are obvious circumstances where it is appropriate for both of us to be united, but there are far more where I really should let H deal with the consequences of his actions). Somewhere inside me is a tiny voice that says if I acknowledge that we really are not on the same team, I have to acknowledge that it's over? Were you motivated by 'keeping the peace to maintain the potential of reconciliation'?

Do you have a lot of loose ends left (like the cell phone) that could throw you for an emotional loop? I know that there is always something unexpected that could pop up and trigger a feeling, but if you are prepared for it, maybe it won't knock you back at all? (And a short run is my go-to after a cry, I get you sister).

Thanks for sharing your thoughts tonight!

xx

Hi Sweet ((((sage)))

Originally Posted by Sage4

Convincing them that the emperor is indeed wearing clothes is only gaslighting them and their understanding of the situation.

Exactly!! They can see/hear more than we ever imagine so this doesn't build trust.

Originally Posted by Sage4

But on the same hand, I don't want to add to their anger towards H.

We aren't responsible for their emotions. We are responsible for being safe, honest and trustworthy.

Originally Posted by Sage4

It is an awfully fine line, isn't it? And your musing on wanting to be on the same team really resonated with me. I too have the 'united front' belief, but I am starting to question if it is my own selfish fear that is keeping me on H's team all the time (there are obvious circumstances where it is appropriate for both of us to be united, but there are far more where I really should let H deal with the consequences of his actions).

My X was drinking and driving. When I tried to talk to him about it he was angry. I ended up having to talk to my son (16 at the time) on his own. Told him "Do NOT get in the car with your dad. This has to come from you".

That was the final straw for me. I realized we were definitely NOT on the same team and I had to be honest and fearless about the consequences of this. Sure there are times when mom & dad can still be on the same time, it just has to be evaluated as to what is true, and what is harmful to them.

Originally Posted by Sage4

Somewhere inside me is a tiny voice that says if I acknowledge that we really are not on the same team, I have to acknowledge that it's over? Were you motivated by 'keeping the peace to maintain the potential of reconciliation'?

Yes. Absolutely. But then I reminded myself and came here and was reminded that my M was already over. I remember how much it hurt when I first heard that, but facing that first reality was freeing.

I was in a very controlling environment and didn't even realize it, so making my own choices was good for me. standing up for myself and my kids was good for me but even better was modeling my own boundaries and encouraging the boys to set them and enforce them.

With younger kids, in our sitch, of course will look a little different, but yes. Their dad needs to face whatever consequences he must. Protecting him is not your job. Not now, and truly not ever IMO.

Originally Posted by Sage4

Do you have a lot of loose ends left (like the cell phone) that could throw you for an emotional loop? I know that there is always something unexpected that could pop up and trigger a feeling, but if you are prepared for it, maybe it won't knock you back at all? (And a short run is my go-to after a cry, I get you sister).

Oh goodness, yess!! But it is so much better!! My X tries to reach out for weird reasons, tells the kids he still loves me and I'm still his "best friend". I've gone dark and only interact when I have to and talk to him like he's the accountant.

Sometimes they just roll off like water/duck's back (another stander shared that with me). It's a process. I've learned that he is on his own journey and me being a buffer was actually hurting more than helping.

Hope this helps xx

If your trying to detach and your spouse is still acting as if the M isn't over, I have some experience here.

Not every sitch is the same, but I thought I would share some things that happened.

August 2017 - found out he had gone to an attorney while I was out of the country. ILYB talks. Moved out of the bedroom early November. Back in MBR for Christmas.

Bought me expensive boots for a graduation gift Dec. 2017. Told me on the drive home he was filing after Christmas.

Moved out of MBR the day after Christmas (older kids were there and I think he was just saving face).

Stayed in guest room. IHS.

April 2018 bought me goats for my birthday. I had always wanted them. I questioned this as we both knew after divorce I wouldn't have any way to take them, and he said to not worry.

Things were mostly great during IHS. Another Christmas. He was consistently acting like we were great, but stopped saying ILY and occasionally brought up divorce.

July 2018 moved to hotel for 2 weeks. Came back home.

Another Christmas - Moved out January 2019. Said "This is probably going to end in divorce but I can't even make up my mind while I live here with you"

Vacation together with our youngest to see kids - acted like my old H, until we returned and then was intermittently distance and my old friend.

I read his email (don't advise this but it turned out to be a blessing to me). Several emails to attorney - January told atty that he wasn't ready. July 2019 told him to proceed with divorce.

I filed before he could to get a better outcome.

During divorce proceedings he was extremely kind to me and very flirty. I had to work very hard on going dark, or at least dim.

He sent me a mother's day card (handwritten) talking about how great a mom I was. I threw it out.

Bought me a Christmas gift that had our business on it. (It was already decided that he would buy me out).

What I mean to say by all of this is - as much as you are able, the only way to do this effectively is to gray rock everything.

If they are nice, great. But if they aren't - your stand can't change.

Boundaries. They are yours. You choose what you will tolerate/allow and what you won't. Don't base it on feelings, base it on what is best for you.

For someone new to all of this, when your spouse is kind, you might get a glimmer of hope (or sometimes a surge).

It has been my experience that they are all over the place and the best thing for us to do is focus on our 180's GAL and just let them do what they do.

Detachment is crucial. I wish you all the best and hope that you are able to find peace in the middle of this storm.

Jan 2021.

DIL came over tonight and let me know that STBX has started introducing "J" to the family. He introduced her as his GF to a cousin.

She did some digging and realized that it was the same J that I thought he had been with.

So...for 3 1/2 years he had a girlfriend.

Of course I was sad, and grossed out, but then I was relieved.

It all makes sense now. I was out of the country and came home to find out he went to an attorney.

He started seeing her that summer.

He told me the divorce was because we had too many arguments. I was not a good wife. I had issues etc etc.

So now I know.

He is trying to play it off to the kids that this is a new relationship.

I told DIL what I knew and that it wasn't my problem anymore.

GF isn't much to look at but she was his partners old assistant. She transferred jobs shortly after they started seeing each other. She was going through her own divorce when they hooked up. She has two young children.

I don't understand the cheating. But more than that - why the deceit. For so long.

I gave him chance after chance to just tell me.

I'm glad the divorce is almost final.

They will deny even in the face of evidence. There are very few that just come in one day and admit they met someone, have been cheating, and are leaving to be with the OP. In fact, the very few couples that start their Rs in adultery and end up together long-term and married will usually change their "how we met" history to leave out the part about cheating on one or both of their spouses at the time. It is the way people rationalize things that are obviously morally bankrupt to themselves.

New Thread:

Leaving it behind.