Divorcebusting.com

Persistent Endurance (Part 4)

Posted By: curtis7

Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 05/29/19 03:23 AM

Link to Part 1:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2841771
Link to Part 2:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2842502
Link to Part 3:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2845184

Summary to date:
W was unhappy in 2018 and probably a few years earlier about her lack of career advancement, responsibilities of being a mother and wife, and lack of connection in our MR. She became involved in an EA with a co-worker in August. She was going to an IC without my knowledge and came to the determination that I was the cause of her unhappiness. BD and IHS in November. I made all of the classic mistakes of begging, pleading, doing all the chores, etc. She became obsessed with her physical appearance. Spending money on facial treatments, anti-aging creams, manicures, pedicures, etc. In November, she was seduced by a 25 year old pickup artist (OM1) at a downtown bar one night and had a PA a couple weeks later which evolved into a limerant relationship. W went deeply underground with her smartphone when I found out and confronted. She has experienced the highest of highs when OM contacts her and the lowest of lows when ignored. She has transferred the limerance to OM2/3 and had at least a second PA. OM1 may still be in contact with her as well. W has distanced herself from anyone of strong moral character and primarily interacts with a recently divorced woman that became her BFF last year. She has been turned on to a GGW lifestyle with sexting, going out more often, and trolling for and probably hooking up with guys on dating apps. She blatantly would text OM and divorced BFF for hours in front of me the last 2 months living together prior to physical separation. W bought her own house and moved out in early April and has been living there for the past 8 weeks. We have arranged 50/50 custody of our kids, S8 and D4, rotating every few days.

I would characterize myself of experiencing PTSD symptoms after BD/PA discovery for about 4 months. Way too much pursuit, pressure, and R talk. I became obsessed with snooping and trying to identify and over-analyze everything that went wrong in our MR that led us to this state. In doing so, I pushed her farther and farther away. I've heard just about every WW catch phrase from her along with way. She has re-written our MR history and focuses on all the negatives. I've been doing a much better job of GAL and detaching since late February. Contact right now is like a business relationship, mostly limited to co-parenting and logistics. I confronted her in early May about no longer living in an open marriage. Her response was basically laughter and she said if you want a divorce, then she's all for it. That night she sent me an email requesting that I gather all of my financial records and decide what items I want to keep by the end of May. She hasn't mentioned it since, and it remains to be seen whether she will bring it up in the next few days.

I don't know if she is still engaged in EAs/PAs with OM, but I assume she is. When we do interact, she generally treats me nice, but that could be because her horse is at our marital home and I help take care of it while she has free reign to come and ride it when she pleases.

I've received a ton of great advice from this board. Some of which I've had a hard time following explicitly. I am not fully detached and continue to be disrespected by my WW on occasion. I do have a hard time employing tough love, it's just not in my nature. My focus right now is to leave her alone as much as possible and give her Time and Space. My ultimate goal is to attract her back to the point she is willing to work on our issues and R and we enjoy a new MR that gives us both the happiness we want.
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 05/29/19 04:00 AM

Originally Posted by AllisonUK
What I did mean was that perhaps taking enjoyment in contact with someone who you knew in the moment didn't want to give it was something to do a real 180 on.
Allison, this is an easy 180, when the botched hug was the only physical contact in 6 months, at that rate it wonít be a problem not repeating a similar mistake.
Originally Posted by AllisonUK
I admire the way you've taken some really strong feedback on board, Curtis. I know how hard it is.
Yes, Iíve had my share of 2x4ís in the short time on the board. However, when we donít heed the advice of the vets or donít seek guidance prior to engaging WAS with words or actions, then we learn by experience, and often the hard way.
Originally Posted by AllisonUK

In my marriage, it has more often been the other way around - with me wanting physical affection and touch and intimacy, and reacting with gracelessness when it has not been available / on offer.
Wow, I would think most men couldnít get enough of a W that wants physical affection and touch without having to ask for it all the time. You seem like a rarity.
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 05/29/19 06:45 AM

Originally Posted by Sandi2
For a woman, it doesn't matter how long it has been........if she doesn't feel the attraction, it's more simple for her just to buy a vibrator. Unless the W's primary love language is physical touch, then I suspect the longer periods of time the couple has no sex while living together.....the less she will desire him (considering there are no health issues with one of them). Here's the thing, if her H has not spoken in her love language, and her emotional needs weren't met.......then eventually, she's going to feel neglected, hurt and resentful. If it continues, those negative feelings will breed disrespectful feelings for her H. And once her respect starts dropping......her attraction/desire level is going to drop as well. The longer the disrespect continues, the less she'll want him. Plus, she eventually puts herself at risk for some OM who comes along as speaks her LL.
My W took the LL quiz about a month after BD and shared the results with me:
Acts of Service (8)
Quality Time (7)
Words of Affirmation (7)
Physical Touch (6)
Receiving Gifts (2)
Reflecting back on our MR in recent years, I suspect my W felt that my Acts of Service were not given freely and that I expected something in return. Quality Time was lacking as the kids have been the priority and the R was routine especially since D4 was born. Words of Affirmation also was not one of my strong suits, but Iíve done a 180 in this area post-BD. Physical Touch has been there, at least on my side. I always made myself available for her as this is my primary LL and to me she is the most attractive woman in the world and I let her know that often.

She did become vulnerable to OM, but I donít see how they can speak her LL of A of S. The two OM are 25 year olds (sheís 38), sure they may have met her needs for QT, W of A, and PT, but it seems she is more enamored with the attention and feeling younger being wanted by these boys.

Originally Posted by Sandi2
I maintain that waywardness is a choice. Nobody forces someone to be wayward. At the same time, I feel many H's are feeling your pain, b/c they just didn't just didn't know what they didn't know.

Yes, itís sad really that so many of us LBHís were completely oblivious prior to BD. I never in a million years thought she was so unhappy to want a D. The perfect storm was brewing in the background. I didnít make her feel appreciated, resentment grew, she went to IC without my knowledge, she received attention from a co-worker in an EA, and BFF got divorced giving my W courage to take action. In retrospect, itís a shame that I wasnít connected to her enough to see it and feel the deterioration.

Itís true that we donít know what we donít know. I sometimes use a similar phrase at work when evaluating the risk of changing something in a product that is working fine. I say there are unknown unknowns. Meaning you account for all the risks that you can identify; however, those may pale in comparison to an unknown risk that you have not identified which could have dire consequences.

Originally Posted by Sandi2
Men always see this as rejection, and often times a W will go through the sex act, just to live with him. Otherwise, he gets an attitude, and then she's going to get one.....and you have bedroom problems. As a woman, I try to see how men take it so personally. But I'm going to go to another level and tell you men that sometimes, we women just get tired of hearing how you feel so rejected b/c we didn't want to have sex. Here's how the R starts to deteriorate, b/c for mentally well women who were in love when they M (not one with a sense of entitlement, a bully, etc.) there came a point where she felt neglected (rejected) and devalued (rejected), too. She tries to push this feeling down, but it is not resolved. It turns to resentment, and goes from there.
Sandi, you nailed this one, no pun intended. I think she did feel neglected and devalued and held most of it within. When she did attempt to raise her concerns the message was lost either from me not listening or in the way it was communicated.

Originally Posted by Sandi2
So, if her heart is cold, then he needs to start by commanding respect under his own roof and see if it brings positive results. Rather than sulk for a days, he should get busy examining how he has allowed her to show disrespect to him. Now, notice I didn't say she "felt" disrespect, but showed it. B/c if she takes advantages of his nice-guy ways (and she will), that just one little example of disrespect. It's his fault if he ignores it and doesn't address it.

Think back about all the times your W took advantage of your good nature. How many times did you think it would soften her heart if you gave in and did her work....or whatever she was after. A woman will not respect the person she can take advantage of.......especially her spouse.

Nothing has seemingly worked so far. Leading with love and trying to nice her back hasnít helped break her out of the fog. Iím a bit torn on this because she has stated that I was a prick in the MR. Treating her right, respecting and honoring her was another 180.

I do maintain a fear of her filing, because if the D is finalized, then I think that would be it and I would move on for good. The fear is taking a hard stance and commanding respect will cause her to take swift steps to end the MR. Who knows, maybe thatís better than the slow death of limbo. Iím conflicted on taking action to gain respect versus giving her time and space right now. I just feel our R is at a fragile point and there is some hope of reconnection if she sees that the grass is not greener in her separation home and how these OM are using her.

Originally Posted by Sandi2
So if you recognize that you enable her bad behavior, doesn't it make sense to stop the pattern? Do you feel you have allowed her bad behavior for so long, that you don't know how to stop it at this point? You can stop doing her favors. That would be a starting point. Stop rescuing her.

Sure does make sense. I know how to stop. I havenít been strong enough to stand up against her bad behavior and rescue herself from her wayward choices.

Originally Posted by Sandi2
Curtis, your children should never witness their father being disrespected, and him do nothing about it.

S8 and D4 are two very intelligent and intuitive children. They may not understand the disrespect right now. They do see the emotional toll my sitch has taken on me, Iíve broken down in tears with them a few times. I donít want this to have long lasting effects that results in them going to IC or repeating history with struggling MRís of their own.

Originally Posted by Sandi2
If you use a poor choice of words with our bunch......my the Lord have mercy on your soul, b/c we are going to spot it.

No doubt, this is for certain. I really need to proofread some of my posts a few times and think about how they could be interpreted. The perils of typing these long responses on a 5Ē smartphone display...

Originally Posted by Sandi2
You have been very good, as Alison pointed out, to take some tough responses. (And, I have been the toughest.) I hope you'll read our posts as if gathering information to grow and have a better relationship with your W, or whatever woman is in your future.

I donít know, LH has been awfully tough too. In fact, R2C, AS, and Steve have all doled out some tough responses. They were warranted and Iím learning. I have grown so much in being able to understand what it takes to have a healthy relationship. Thanks Sandi!
Posted By: AlisonUK

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 05/29/19 09:28 AM

Yes, I did feel like a rarity. I've come to accept that my behaviour at the time wasn't attractive, and that men aren't machines and have a need for safety and respect and care too. But at the time - and still, to be honest - it did make me feel rejected and abandoned like nothing else in the world has the power to do. So I do get it.
Posted By: LH19

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 05/29/19 01:36 PM

C,

We're tough on you because we a trying to help and because we have seen so many situations (hundreds, Sandi probably thousands) we have the guidelines to best navigate these situations.

Sometimes I'm concerned about your mental state that's why I think you should be in IC.

If you don't want to do the tough love approach then do the get your own life approach. When she is over you and the kids are out the door. The only contact you have is about the kids. It will help you detach.

You're going to need to detach but I think this is going to drag on for a really long time.
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 05/29/19 03:27 PM

Catching up on some journaling...

I had my big 40th birthday bash on Saturday night. Three of the moms from my sonís baseball team did all of the planning, coordination, and setup. They went all out, balloons, decorations, appetizers, taco bar dinner, and a custom vanilla cream cake dressed up with fondant to look like a bottle of Johnnie Walker Black Label. smile I just supplied the drinks, music, and a super clean house that I worked on in the days leading up to the event. Lots of lively conversation and great fun was had by all. There was one gag gift that was an inflatable walker adorned with several phrases about getting old and being over the hill.

There were about 20 friends at the party, but all couples. I did find myself scanning the crowd a few times dwelling on the fact that I was the only one alone and felt lonely and depressed briefly. I tried to block those thoughts by accepting this is the choice Iíve made for now in standing for my MR. It didnít last long as I received plenty of attention all night and felt very appreciated. I am fortunate to have good friends that are caring, kind-hearted, generous, and sympathize with what Iím going through. The party was a rousing success with a ton of leftovers.

W brought kids over Sunday morning. D4 found the big 4-0 balloons and inflatable Walker and brought them out to the garage. W saw them and had a chuckle at the walker, so she found out I had a party, but didnít ask any questions about it. Later, I was talking with S8 about his past couple days with his mom and he told me that D4 told her ďyou know dad loves you.Ē He said W responded ďI love him too, but not the same way.Ē Sounds like a classic ILYBINILWY to me.

On Memorial Day, W came over to ride her horse. I was with the kids in the pool and W came onto the pool deck. She was clearly checking out the new patio furniture sets and rolling ice chest I had bought for the party. She was trying not to show emotion of like or dislike on the changes Iíve made in the pool area, but it did seem to pique her interest. She asked if she could have a beer from the ice chest, I said sure, if you like. Then she played frisbee across the pool with S8 for about 20 minutes before the horse ride.

Yesterday, W stayed at her separation house with the kids as they are out of school this week and summer camps havenít started. She texted asking if I could watch the kids after work while she rides her horse. I was planning to go play volleyball and offered to take them as other kids are there that they enjoy playing with. I texted her that they needed to be ready to go by 6:30 and that they could swim in the pool beforehand. When I got home from work, W was laying out by the pool in a bikini, then quickly scurried off to the bathroom to change into her horse attire. The kids both wanted to trot around on the horse before we left. I waited and was friendly in small talk with W. I am getting a vibe that she is a bit warmer towards me occasionally. Iím not going to read much into it and keep maintaining my distance.

I really need to move on finalizing the itinerary for my trip to California with the kids in a few weeks. Flights and rental car are booked, still working on selecting hotels up and down the pacific coast. Itís going to be a wonderful time to bond with them, but expensive. Worth it though!
Posted By: LH19

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 05/29/19 03:45 PM

LH smacks his forehead!
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 05/29/19 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by LH19
LH smacks his forehead!

Lol, I know, I know. The cake eating with the horse, free beer, pool time, watching the kids for her, being strung along by playing nice...favors...and no tough love.
Posted By: sandi2

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 05/29/19 10:54 PM

I hope with books, like the LL will start breaking tearing some walls down. I used every thing I knew how to explain to my H what I needed from him. He wouldn't say anything until I finished, and his answer was to have more sex and everything would be fine. tired He just didn't get it.

Quote
Wow, I would think most men couldnít get enough of a W that wants physical affection and touch without having to ask for it all the time.


If all women's LL was PT.......nobody would ever get anything done. smirk

You can identify with that need for PT. Your W's number one LL or emotional need is just as valuable to her, and need-worthy as your PT. Some may argue and say sex or PT is more important, but not if it's not her LL. The way you feel loved is through PT. The way she feels loved is through another avenue. PT is a demonstration of how you feel loved. If you want to demonstrate how much she is loved, then speak in the language she recognizes.

Quote
Reflecting back on our MR in recent years, I suspect my W felt that my Acts of Service were not given freely and that I expected something in return.


I think most women can tell when her H is buttering her up for sex. Even if you are speaking her LL, you've got to keep a loving attitude.....or she'll see it as manipulative, and it is if you're just trying to get something in return. Whatever language, love should be demonstrated, and should come from the heart.

Quote
Quality Time was lacking as the kids have been the priority and the R was routine especially since D4 was born.


How do you picture quality time with your W?

Quote
Words of Affirmation also was not one of my strong suits, but Iíve done a 180 in this area post-BD.


Good for you! We all have to learn in the areas that are not our strong suits.

Quote
She did become vulnerable to OM, but I donít see how they can speak her LL of A of S. The two OM are 25 year olds (sheís 38), sure they may have met her needs for QT, W of A, and PT, but it seems she is more enamored with the attention and feeling younger being wanted by these boys.


I When she has gone without emotional needs being met by her husband, and the resentment and disrespect builds until she no longer feels those "in-love" emotions, then she's not going to feel very good about herself. She probably feels depressed and thinks she's getting older, less attractive, etc. She craves for those needs to be met, just like you crave sex! So, it's like when a man goes forever in a SSM, and he starts getting attention from a hottie co-worker. He may not have sex with the hottie right off the bat.......but if she keeps pursuing, and he's not getting it at home......or feels ignored at home........it may require a lot of strength for him to turn the hottie away. Yes, morals should come into play, but that's just not always the case when a human being goes for a long time with emotional needs ignored. I'm not making excuses for your W or anyone who steps outside the MR to get emotional needs met by another person. I'm just trying to explain that these guys are not her husband. They are substitutes who are playing on her EN. Pick up artists aren't looking for a stable relationship with a woman who is 38 and already has kids...... they are looking for a woman who will have sex with them.
Posted By: Destroyd

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 05/30/19 12:43 AM

Sandi,

If you wife has already dropped the bomb, can using the love languages still help?
Posted By: SoTorn

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 05/30/19 12:46 AM

My new GFs LL is PT. My LL is PT. All I can say is it works well when its a match.

My EXWW is also 38. Im positive ahe has had several As. Now that I can see clearly, she was receiving gifts from men at her work here and the OM I found out about. Her GGW activities continue. But we are D and I dont care.

Keep strong man. You are doing much better. Yes tons of cake eating. But as long as you are focused on yourself and not her, you will continue to detach.
Posted By: Ready2Change

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 05/30/19 04:03 AM

Originally Posted by Destroyd
If your wife has already dropped the bomb, can using the love languages still help?
As long as you do them in a non-needy way, maybe.


The biggest issue 99% of the time is there is OM. Or at least a fantasy of one.

The best thing you can do is increase Alpha male traits. Change your behavior. Change your look. Change your beliefs. Change your thought processes. Change your voice.
Posted By: SteveLW

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 05/30/19 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by Destroyd
Sandi,

If you wife has already dropped the bomb, can using the love languages still help?


Filling her love tank is a maintenance item. Maintenance doesn't work after a breakdown.

Think of it like a car. Do the routine maintenance and it will keep purring along. Ignore the routine maintenance and you'll have a breakdown. Changing the oil on a car with a blown engine is a waste of time....and oil.

For LLs for now. Love yourself. GAL. Detach. 180s. Concentrate on what you have control over. Not what you don't.
Posted By: sandi2

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 05/30/19 03:54 PM

Quote
Sandi,

If you wife has already dropped the bomb, can using the love languages still help?


When you use your W's language of love, you are communicating to her that you cherish her. You adore and appreciate her. That is what LL's are all about. However, when you are faced with a W such as is commonly found on the board, I think it is critical that you don't get the cart before the horse. The horse, being respect, and the cart being LL.

Let's talk about it a little further. I'm all for LL's, as I hope I showed in my post to Curtis. However, when there is a WW, it's very tricky, b/c you've lost her respect and you can't get it back by demonstrating her LL....b/c she has changed and she's not the girl you M. At this point, the timing would be off with little to no positive results. Plus, if she's got another guy in her head, or wants to shop around for one......then trying to show her your love .......is too little late--too late, at this point, to get the results you need. And, I think it must be a normal reaction for the LBS to want to prove how much they love the spouse they are losing. It is difficult for them to accept that their show of love does not change the heart of their spouse during this time frame. Many H's just don't realize or believe that what they need to get is the W's respect, and then he can apply her LL.

If you have read anything about the hormones that flood the brain when we fall in love, then try to understand that your WW has lost all of that for you. She's just not feeling it. Before the M, she was attracted to you.....and those great hormones were flowing. Once she M you, the dynamics in the relationship changed. And to save time.....I'll just say that eventually she didn't look at you the same (whether or not she was right, it affected her feelings). She didn't feel the attraction.....b/c she lost her admiration in you as a man, which affected her loving feelings for you as her H. Women are very complex, and many men fail to get the concept that a wife has to feel respect for him in order to feel desire. So, in order for the desire/love for her H to return, she's got to see him through eyes of respect. All that other stuff is lost, if she doesn't respect him. First things first.......and getting your respect back is the first step. I want to make something very clear. If a woman doesn't respect a man, it doesn't matter how much he praises her, hugs her, does acts of service for her, or what he buys for her. These actions do not draw her respect. These actions shows her your love.... but it does not draw forth her her love, b/c of her disrespect.

I'll say it this way. When you are at the point where she has dropped the bomb, or if she is an affair, you should not be focused on showing how much you love her. That's what you did before M, in order to win her heart, and it's your nature to want to do it again when you feel her slipping through your fingers. However, the difference now is that pursuit doesn't work with a WAW/WW/MLCW. And almost everything the H does......feels like pursuit to her. She's just not in a receptive state of mind, and LL is not going to make her respect him. I think some men stubbornly think they can change her or wear her down by pursuing......but if she falls into one of these categories....it won't work! So, what's a man to do? He has to stay focused on getting his respect back. Once she's out of the A, and she is treating him with respect, THEN he can start applying her LL.

Imagine you trying to demonstrate these LL to a wayward W:

Are you really going to try to give physical touch/affection to a woman who turns to ice or flinches if you even try to give her a non-sexual touch? Okay, well let's say you have a W who had dropped the bomb, but she still wants the hugs & cuddles. There are some WW's who want to keep one foot in the M and one outside. However, the root of waywardness is disrespect. If she's cuddling up to you, spending quality time when it's convenient for her (being BFF's), while she's in an affair.......then I'd say she's getting the best of both worlds. So you figure it out and decide if you want to go for the cuddles, or the respect, first.

What about gifts, flowers, etc., as her LL? The same principle, IMHO, applies. If she has lost respect for you as man.....and as her H, do you get that respect back by sending her roses? No! You are showering her with gifts, while she cheats on you?? That's doesn't get a woman's respect. If her LL is gifts, it would be effective if she wasn't wayward, in MLC, WAW cases. By this time, it's too little, too late.......in her opinion. She'll probably say, "Thanks", but it's not going to change her.

Okay, then there are the words of affirmation. Same thing applies. Now, this has never been my talent and I really admire people who are are gifted in this area. They don't sound stiff or phony. It just flows naturally. They don't sound like they are buttering up someone to get out of trouble, or expecting something back. Some guys think words of affirmation is giving her a complement.....about her appearance. It goes much further. Words of affirmation give her emotional support. It lifts her spirits. So, there may be opportunities, but again.....it's a little tricky, b/c she isn't the same W and she isn't not going to draw her respect. When a H is suddenly trying to validate her every time she turns around, and he's using giving lot of affirmation (although different things), it sounds to her like he's just trying to kiss up.
That's why I caution H's about over kill. She's wayward, and knows when her H is trying to nice her back. She's got his number, and she'll spot a lame husband's complement in a second. I've read posts where the LBH is watching his WW get dolled up to go out to meet her OM......and the H would start complimenting about how hot she looked. tired Not the right time~!

Many WW's want family time, and some want time with the H, b/c she wants him to be her "friend". She doesn't want him for a lover....just a friend, and it has to be when she wants it, and it has to be all about "her".

What about acts of service? Oh sure! WW's love for the LBH to do all sorts of acts of service....and more! He can wait hand & foot on her, do all the chores, raise the kids, run himself into the ground.......b/c she doesn't run out of things he can do for "her". Does it affect her cold heart? Nope. At best, she'll tell him she appreciates it, but it won't make her respect him. Everything goes back to getting her to respect for him as a man, first. Otherwise, all these LL's do nothing to win back the heart of a WW.

Whenever you read a book written to improve relationships, it inspires us to immediately apply the methods recommended. I think the books on LL is very eye opening. They are terrific, IMHO. Like most any method, the timing of application is critical. I encourage everyone (men & women) to get the information about love languages. These LL's can be applied in other relationships (not intimate touches, or romantic stuff, but most others) such as family, relatives, friends, etc. It can be good practice, so when your W does start treating you with respect, you'll be ready to demonstrate her LL.

Sorry if it I seem to repeat myself a lot in this post.
Posted By: AnotherStander

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 05/30/19 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by curtis7
Wow, I would think most men couldnít get enough of a W that wants physical affection and touch without having to ask for it all the time.


My GF's primary LL is PT. It does not mean she wants constant sex, or that mauling her all the time is the way to her heart. I still have to do a ton of listening and validating and DBing to keep things on an even keel. Mainly the touching makes her feel connected, it soothes her.
Posted By: sandi2

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 05/30/19 03:56 PM

See how easily Steve put the entire message in a few words? I have to learn how to do that!
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 05/31/19 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by Sandi2
How do you picture quality time with your W?

Sandi, QT for me with my W is being present with her and showing up without distractions. Asking her about her day at work, listening to her struggles, giving her emotional support, eating meals together, etc. All without looking at the phone, computer, TV. Really prioritizing her and making her feel that my time with her is whatís most important to me in those moments. QT is also working on projects together around the house. These are great bonding experiences where we connect as partners and both can gain a sense of accomplishment when complete.

Date nights are key too and now I feel these should occur almost weekly. My W and I really didnít go on dates since our son was born 8 years ago. We donít have any family nearby and didnít seek out babysitters too often, maybe a few times a year if we were attending a wedding or some other celebration. Life became very routine and heavily focused on raising the kids. One on one time just being around your mate and enjoying their company is so important to a successful MR. I see that now and miss it immensely.

I have really grown to appreciate QT since bomb drop. Admittedly, I was distracted before and didnít realize the importance of this LL. I took my time with her for granted and didnít make her feel special. Definitely a 180 for me that I was able to show when she was still living at home, not so easy when separated with limited communication and time together.

Originally Posted by Steve85
Filling her love tank is a maintenance item. Maintenance doesn't work after a breakdown.

Think of it like a car. Do the routine maintenance and it will keep purring along. Ignore the routine maintenance and you'll have a breakdown. Changing the oil on a car with a blown engine is a waste of time....and oil.

Steve, I can attest that speaking LLs post-BD hasnít seemingly helped my sitch. While she may think it is nice and appreciates it on some level, itís not enough when there is so much resentment present. Respect and love must be regained first, then consistently speaking LLs will prevent another breakdown from happening in the future.
Posted By: sandi2

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 06/21/19 02:50 PM

Haven't heard from you in a while. Hope you are okay and will drop us a post soon.
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 06/24/19 06:38 AM

Hi Sandi et al, thanks for thinking of me and checking in.

Iím still here. I spent the early part of June planning my California vacation with my kids and Iím just back from the 10 day trip. It was absolutely amazing!! Being with them everyday is something I havenít had since WW moved out almost 3 months ago. Would have been great if W was with us on the trip, but the bonding experience and memories are irreplaceable and something she canít take away from me.

Iíve been giving WW time and space as AS recommended. The cake eating continues with her horse. We mostly communicate about the kids and some small talk about her job, renovation projects sheís working on at the separation house, horses, etc. She is always nice and cordial and I reciprocate in kind. She has not brought up D. Nor has she inquired further about request for financial info or dividing assets/property per the deadline she imposed by the end of May. So from that standpoint DBing has been successful.

However, W is WW as ever with her multiple A partners. She is now cycling between OM1 (EA/possible PA co-worker), OM2 (PA 25 year old pickup artist), and OM3 (PA dirtbag that verbally abuses her based on texts Iíve seen) all within the span of a couple weeks. These sexual predators are attacking on all fronts and her vulnerability/desires canít fight them off. Full blown GGW with divorced BFF by her side to support and promote her new lifestyle. She fails to see the harm that her choices will cause to our children. Selfishness, itís all about her. Iím afraid Iíve reached the end of my timeline in limbo. I want off this roller coaster.

Iíll post an update in the next day or two on my thoughts and plans going forward. I would really appreciate advice from the vets on the best course of action for the options that Iíll lay out. Iím still willing to R, only if the Aís end. Itís time for me to make a final stand. She may or may not feel a crisis, but it will be her choice to make. My expectations are near zero and Iím willing to try almost anything. I am ready to move on one way or another, with or without her, protect my emotional well-being and put all of my energy into living a life that is best for me and my children.
Posted By: MrBrside

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 06/24/19 09:03 AM

Curtis,

I meant to post a while back when you mentioned WW coming over and helping herself to the beer.. My question was about the horse.. Can she not keep it elsewhere.. In my personal sitch, everything changed for the better once my WW was gone from the home and contact was minimal ( ie collecting the children ) . Really helps in detachment... It is probably not that simple until Divorce etc, but again if she persists down this route, do you really want to be keeping her horse / seeing her daily if / when she finally moves in with one of these guys. It does seem like cake eating extreme..
Posted By: IHCLACS

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 06/24/19 09:26 AM

I completely understand if you have sentiment torwards a helpless horse who didn't asked to be involved with all this. I say offer her three choices with a deadline. Either W finds a stable/area for her horse by xxx date, she pays you nominal rent for horse at your place, or you sell horse to a neighboring farm.

If love is conditional, if marriage is contractual, then actions should have consequences.
Posted By: AnotherStander

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 06/24/19 05:18 PM

Originally Posted by curtis7
However, W is WW as ever with her multiple A partners. She is now cycling between OM1 (EA/possible PA co-worker), OM2 (PA 25 year old pickup artist), and OM3 (PA dirtbag that verbally abuses her based on texts Iíve seen) all within the span of a couple weeks. These sexual predators are attacking on all fronts and her vulnerability/desires canít fight them off. Full blown GGW with divorced BFF by her side to support and promote her new lifestyle. She fails to see the harm that her choices will cause to our children. Selfishness, itís all about her.


Well she's certainly poising herself to hit rock bottom in a big way.

Quote
Iím afraid Iíve reached the end of my timeline in limbo. I want off this roller coaster.


I can certainly understand that. But the advice I always offer on this is take a couple of months to make sure it's what you want before you pursue D. If you go back and forth constantly during that 2 months then you're not ready. But if you tell yourself every day for 2 months that you are done and ready for D, and you don't feel any strong emotions over it, then you are ready.

Quote
Iím still willing to R, only if the Aís end. Itís time for me to make a final stand. She may or may not feel a crisis, but it will be her choice to make.


If you plan on an ultimatum (quit the affairs or I will file for D) then my suggestion would be not to. If you are convinced you want a D then go ahead and file. THAT will be the ultimatum and much, MUCH more of a wake up call then verbally giving her an ultimatum. What is the difference between the two, well if you file then you really are done. If you're giving her an ultimatum then frankly that tells me you are NOT ready for D and are just trying to get a response out of her.

Quote
My expectations are near zero and Iím willing to try almost anything.


See that's what I mean- "try almost anything." Divorce is not a marriage-saving technique. Divorce is you ending things because you are DONE. Period.
Posted By: SteveLW

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 06/24/19 05:32 PM

Listen to AS. Do not give her an ultimatum, unless you are okay with being D'd. Do not file for D unless you are okay with being D'd.

Many LBSs have tried the "I'll file for D, or make her choose" and then are devastated when they are D'd. So make sure it is really really what you want. And yes, do not talk about it, just go file. You might get lucky in that getting served papers will wake her up. Probably no though so do not have near zero expectations. Have ZERO expectations. As in, when you file for D realize that you are going to be D'd.

Finally curtis, earn your way out of this MR. Make sure you are in IC and working on yourself. Do not carry unresolved emotional baggage into your next R.
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 06/25/19 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by helpme12
My question was about the horse.. Can she not keep it elsewhere.. In my personal sitch, everything changed for the better once my WW was gone from the home and contact was minimal ( ie collecting the children ) . Really helps in detachment... It is probably not that simple until Divorce etc, but again if she persists down this route, do you really want to be keeping her horse / seeing her daily if / when she finally moves in with one of these guys. It does seem like cake eating extreme..

She stated in her financial disclosure/ asset split email in early May that she would start looking for a place to keep her horse, but would not move it until her name was no longer on our property. It does make it more difficult to detach when she comes around daily. Then she is texting and taking pictures of herself and the horse to send to her OM while on our property. I try to be away from home GAL when she comes over or busy working on projects so I donít have to witness the shenanigans. It certainly is extreme cake eating. If D is pursued, the horse is gone and will not be staying at my place.
Originally Posted by IHCLACS
I completely understand if you have sentiment torwards a helpless horse who didn't asked to be involved with all this. I say offer her three choices with a deadline. Either W finds a stable/area for her horse by xxx date, she pays you nominal rent for horse at your place, or you sell horse to a neighboring farm.

If love is conditional, if marriage is contractual, then actions should have consequences.

Horse arrangements are a consideration in the plan as my sitch plays out. Iím not vindictive to sell her horse, but will urge her to take it away if the D process begins.

I doubt she has felt much in the way of consequences for her actions so far other than logistical inconveniences of driving 10 minutes each way to shuffle kids and care for the horse.
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 06/25/19 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Well she's certainly poising herself to hit rock bottom in a big way.

Perhaps...the lies, deceit, and manipulation must be very stressful for her to keep up. Must be worth it to her for the emotional highs, thrills, and excitement of getting the attention and being pursued by these OM. Guilt and shame has been suppressed for some time.
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
I can certainly understand that. But the advice I always offer on this is take a couple of months to make sure it's what you want before you pursue D. If you go back and forth constantly during that 2 months then you're not ready. But if you tell yourself every day for 2 months that you are done and ready for D, and you don't feel any strong emotions over it, then you are ready.

2 months from now would put me right around our 15 year anniversary, how fitting. I hear what youíre saying, and donít want to make a rash decision on D as it will affect the rest of my life. Itís not in the first few steps Iím considering.
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Quote
Iím still willing to R, only if the Aís end. Itís time for me to make a final stand. She may or may not feel a crisis, but it will be her choice to make.
If you plan on an ultimatum (quit the affairs or I will file for D) then my suggestion would be not to. If you are convinced you want a D then go ahead and file. THAT will be the ultimatum and much, MUCH more of a wake up call then verbally giving her an ultimatum. What is the difference between the two, well if you file then you really are done. If you're giving her an ultimatum then frankly that tells me you are NOT ready for D and are just trying to get a response out of her.

One of my goals now is to bust the affairs. If those efforts are ineffective, then I will accept the consequences, including D. Maybe we table this until I lay out my options so you have a better idea of the sequence Iím intending to follow.
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
See that's what I mean- "try almost anything." Divorce is not a marriage-saving technique. Divorce is you ending things because you are DONE. Period.

I say try almost anything based on the following (which Iím in agreement with) from MWD: ďWhen you have children, you owe it to them to leave absolutely no stone unturned if you are considering dissolving your marriage. Once a marriage dissolves, so too, does the family... forever... Once you choose to bring children into the world, divorce isn't a solution to an unhappy marriage. Fixing it is.ď

Also, that I can see a future where her and I build a new marriage that satisfies each otherís wants and needs if we can get past this hurdle.
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 06/25/19 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by Steve85
And yes, do not talk about it, just go file. You might get lucky in that getting served papers will wake her up. Probably not though so do not have near zero expectations. Have ZERO expectations. As in, when you file for D realize that you are going to be D'd.

Finally curtis, earn your way out of this MR. Make sure you are in IC and working on yourself. Do not carry unresolved emotional baggage into your next R.

I agree in having ZERO expectations when filing. However, I feel LBS need some expectations, albeit extremely low, when DBing, otherwise there can be no hope.

Great advice on earning my way out. Iím not ready to walk away without knowing Iíve tried everything and prepared myself emotionally to move on.
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 06/26/19 03:36 AM

I've been really tired lately. Red-eye flight over the weekend and time change from Pacific to Eastern time zone hasn't helped. I need to clear my head and get some rest and avoid any irrational decisions. I've been keeping up with staying busy since she moved out. Going to church, playing volleyball a few times a week, coaching youth baseball, and going to the gym. Weight has finally stabilized around 159 lbs. Fairly healthy weight for my body type (5'9"), very tone, fit, muscular, and little body fat. Weighed 171 lbs at time of BD, lost 20lbs and fell to 151 lbs during PTSD episode (early November 2018 BD to end of February 2019 recovery). Have steadily regained weight over the past few months since WW moved out.

I'm having a hard time drafting the post on the options I'm considering going forward. I have them all identified, but I want to elaborate on them sufficiently to give everyone a good understanding of my thought process. For some reason, I just don't have the motivation to put it all together right now. I still plan to get it out there...a few more days.

I recently stated that I'm ready to pursue these next steps, but I've had some time to re-evaluate and I think that could have been an emotional response to recent events. Some of the best advice I've received is to wait at least 24 hours to take any action with regards to decisions made in response to emotional triggers. This board is a better place to vent and vet thoughts and ideas before taking action.

I returned from the California trip with my kids and was on cloud 9 after spending a week and a half with them. Even though it would have been wonderful for W to be with us on the trip and I thought about this daily, I felt that my life was still great without her. Then, kids were with W for two nights over the weekend and I experienced loss and loneliness again. When kids were back with me Sunday night, my S8 said a few things that set me off. First, he said that mom is texting all the time when they are at her separation house. I can't stand them being neglected and plopped down in front of the TV when she is in smartphone fantasyland. He also told me the name of OM3. I did some research on him after downloading a free pseudo-background check app. Turns out he has a court record from a few years ago for domestic violence against a female. This made me concerned about the safety of my W and children. I'm debating whether to let WW know, but she has always told me that she's a big girl and can take care of herself. Second, my S8 said he hopes that mom isn't telling people at work that she is single. Finally, S8 said "I don't want to have two dads." This flooded me with sadness and emotion. I had to hide my tears from him. I felt so sorry for what my kids are going through. I wanted so badly to be with the kids everyday going forward and the only way to obtain that is for her to return to the MR. If she refuses, then I'm no worse off as it pertains to my time with the kids than I am right now. So, I decided this is the time to take action and find out the fate of my family. Thus, my post about being done living in limbo.

WW has been more friendly this month. A few days before leaving on the California trip with the kids, she invited me in to her separation house to see some of the renovation projects she is working on. I showed mild interest and merely expressed that I'm happy for her. Then, the night before leaving on the trip the kids were going to stay with me and she wanted to see them. We went over to her house and stayed for almost 2 hours. Most of the time she was chit-chatting with me about the trip, her work, horses, divorced BFF getting stood up again on by a guy on the dating app (has happened to her several times apparently), and also that W decided to de-activate her Facebook profile (probably didn't want her OM to see all of the family pics). I validated and stayed positive but somewhat distant.

Upon returning from the vacation, she asked about the trip the first night when picking up the kids. Then went on to tell me about interaction she had with one of our neighbors that has been helping her train her horse. He is in his 50's, married, but a player. She told me that he was hitting on her and making insinuating comments...not the first time. She knows that he cheats on his wife all the time and told me that she can handle it. She said she told him that "he is married" and that "she is married...still." I don't know how to interpret her saying being married...still. I just looked at her and thought to myself what kind of alien monster are you? How hypocritical to call out this guy, when you've been cheating on me for over 6 months while married.

Over the past few days, small talk has continued. Topics were again on the trip, renovation projects at her house, horses, frustrations at her work. Validation, positivity, and light humor were my responses.

I do have a hypothetical question. In the case of physical separation, how is the LBS to know when the A is over without spying/snooping? Is it ever acceptable to ask the WAS if they are still in contact with the AP? Or is it better to wait until if/when they finally feel remorse and initiate on their own?

I still assume the increased friendly interaction is continued selfish cake eating for her horse and parenting availability to enable her A's with no consequences.
Posted By: ovrrnbw

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 06/26/19 04:02 AM

My advice is to not use the word "separated". It's a word used by weak people to justify affairs bc they're too weak to keep their vows, file for D, or wait until D is final. And to answer your question, you aren't to know when the affair is over bc she is no longer yours to worry about. It's better to not ask about the affairs ever again unless she's kicking down the door trying to reconcile.

Get rid of the horse somehow, it's holding you back. And cut out the small talk, it means nothing. You seem to be pretty available to her when you should be busy doing things and not have time for her. In case you've forgotten, she is choosing others over you so why are you showing her that you'll keep coming around? What do those actions say to her?
Posted By: LH19

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 06/26/19 07:05 AM

C,

I think you know the answer to your hypothetical question. Plus you have to remember that even if the affairs end that doesnít mean anything has changed.

I am curious to read about your options that youíre going to lay out. I hope tough love is one of them because that is IMO the only way to handle your extremely WW wife.

I am really sorry you and your kids are going through this and am glad you had a great time on your trip.
Posted By: MrBrside

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 06/26/19 09:42 AM

Curtis,

I replied to your post in my thread.. I have thought from your intial posts, that out sitchs are very similar ( as are a lot on here to be fair ) - but you still seem to be stuck in limbo IMO..

If you read Sandis post ( For Newcomer LBH with a wayward ) on Cadets list, she quotes

Originally Posted by Sandi
She has to suffer some type of loss (due to her decisions) in order to shake her from her fantasy fogC,



and as LH19 says, even if this ends the affair, it may not result in your R surviving..

Your WW has suffered no loss and looks like she doesnt care anyway. She is cake eating to the extreme and rolling over all in her path - You, your children, the men in her life.. She doesnt care.

These factors have probably resulted in even less respect for you. ( has she has shown ) - sorry to be blunt.

Originally Posted by curtis7
my S8 said a few things that set me off. First, he said that mom is texting all the time when they are at her separation house. I can't stand them being neglected and plopped down in front of the TV when she is in smartphone fantasyland. He also told me the name of OM3. I did some research on him after downloading a free pseudo-background check app. Turns out he has a court record from a few years ago for domestic violence against a female. This made me concerned about the safety of my W and children. I'm debating whether to let WW know, but she has always told me that she's a big girl and can take care of herself. Second,



One of the vets on here posted recently that the site members are often logical and rational.

Your WW isnt thinking like that - her life / decissions and choices are 100% emotional. There is no logic to it. In your world 5 +5 =10. In her emotional state, anything goes and 5 + 5 will never equal 10.. Again, Sandi highlights this in her Newcomer post. Your WW probably wont care that OM3 has a record... Look at the media.. People fall for people with bad reputation and a violent past all the time. Convicted fellon Jeremy Meeks ended up with a billionairs daughter !!! I'm sure she wasnt thinking with logic when she jumped into bed with him, or bothered he had done time for assault.
Any decent father would worry about their children, but your WW wont appriciate you chipping it - you cant control it.

As for why - google "affair down" or "why do they affair down"... Affairing down is common.. Your WW isnt looking for a provider / nice guy.. She had it all but went WW... She now wants a lover... Regardless of the damage.
Posted By: AnotherStander

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 06/26/19 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by curtis7
One of my goals now is to bust the affairs. If those efforts are ineffective, then I will accept the consequences, including D.


I'm curious what you think you will gain by busting the affairs? I think most LBS's are hoping it moves them from Plan B status to Plan A, but it never, ever does. It just creates a lot of resentment in the WAS, and usually the A will continue but go even deeper undercover (their attitude usually becomes "it's us against the world"). The thing is, she's separated and most WAS's don't consider it an "affair" after separation, to them they're just moving on to a new R. They think they're only "married" in the sense that some pesky piece of paper filed somewhere says so. I know you don't agree with that but that's her point of view right now.

Quote
I say try almost anything based on the following (which Iím in agreement with) from MWD: ďWhen you have children, you owe it to them to leave absolutely no stone unturned if you are considering dissolving your marriage. Once a marriage dissolves, so too, does the family... forever... Once you choose to bring children into the world, divorce isn't a solution to an unhappy marriage. Fixing it is.ď


And I completely agree with that, but what I'm saying is threatening D or filing for D is NOT recommended by Michele or these forums as a way to "save" your M. That's kind of like cutting off your leg because you stubbed your toe and it hurts and you want to make it stop.

Quote
I've been keeping up with staying busy since she moved out. Going to church, playing volleyball a few times a week, coaching youth baseball, and going to the gym. Weight has finally stabilized around 159 lbs. Fairly healthy weight for my body type (5'9"), very tone, fit, muscular, and little body fat.


Excellent! Keep that up!

Quote
I recently stated that I'm ready to pursue these next steps, but I've had some time to re-evaluate and I think that could have been an emotional response to recent events. Some of the best advice I've received is to wait at least 24 hours to take any action with regards to decisions made in response to emotional triggers.


The one thing you have is plenty of time. There's no need to rush anything. When in doubt then take more time for yourself.

Quote
I do have a hypothetical question. In the case of physical separation, how is the LBS to know when the A is over without spying/snooping? Is it ever acceptable to ask the WAS if they are still in contact with the AP? Or is it better to wait until if/when they finally feel remorse and initiate on their own?


She more than likely considers it none of your business since you are separated. Asking is basically temp checking her and the advice is not to do it. She probably won't give you a truthful answer anyway.
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 06/27/19 07:19 PM

Venting...

W texts me today: ďMaybe one on one time would be good with D4. I was gonna suggest at some point we do that. Where S8 and I do something, and you and D4 do something. Because usually the other way around...my sister does that.Ē

Well, SIL is not a WAW and didnít choose to rip her family apart where each parent only has the kids half time. Trial D, as WW called this, is not conducive to one on one time with the kids for each parent. Thatís not how 50/50 custody works in D, kids travel together.

I have not responded.
Posted By: LH19

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 06/27/19 08:11 PM

C,

I think itís a good idea. I enjoy one on one time with my kids. Schedule it on her time so you get extra time with kids.
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 06/28/19 03:23 PM

LH, good advice. I like time with my kids as well, together or one on one. If/when she brings it up again I'll be sure it's on her days with the kids.
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 06/28/19 03:58 PM

I was reflecting on my entire sitch over the past few days so I went back and read all of my cliff notes from the relationship/self-help books I've read since BD. Specifically, I re-read my DR notes and reviewed the initial list of marriage goals that I set in mid-December.

Here is the list:

1) I want her to be back with me by the end of January, building emotional desire, and finding lost feelings of love.
2) I want her to spend time with me and work on activities and projects together.
3) I want her to reconnect and experience her sexual fantasies with me.
4) I want to take her on dates.
5) I want us to talk about our future plans and goals together so we can have a shared vision and purpose.
6) I want her to call or text me occasionally to see how I'm doing and feeling.
7) I want her to feel comfortable around me to initiate conversation.
8) I want to have faith and trust in her again.

Now, over 6 months later, I realize none of these goals have been met and I can't say much progress has been made towards any of them. Maybe #7, but that's mostly neighborly small talk.

In retrospect, I need to assign a more realistic timeline to each of these goals and keep asking myself if what I'm doing is bringing me closer towards or farther from success. Early on after BD, I never imagined my sitch would play out the way it has and I was more optimistic that she would return to the MR more quickly. However, this is a marathon, not a sprint. At that time, I never appreciated the power of a limerant affair on a person and how irrational and selfish the thoughts of a WW could be.

I have concluded that: 1) I had very lofty expectations, 2) am very bad at DB, and/or 3) she has truly moved on and there is no hope that will ever change. I prefer to accept a combination of #1 and #2 as I still have hope.

Most of these are big goals and almost none of them are achievable while she is in an active A. I don't want to lose sight of these goals, but perhaps I should think small. As MWD writes: "The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step." Michelle writes about taking stock, if things are better, but not quite there yet, re-visit positively-stated, action-oriented, and doable goals to achieve in the next few weeks.

I do feel DB has helped reduce some of the anger WW had towards me. GAL, Validation, Acting As If, 180s, Time and Space seem to have helped in that respect. I just don't see the possibility in meeting any significant marriage goals while the A continues...patience is paramount right now.
Posted By: neffer

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 06/28/19 04:49 PM

Why donīt you make a list of your goals? Things that depens only on you.

Be strong there Curtis
Posted By: HrtHsbnd

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 06/28/19 06:07 PM

I donít know how you guys do it. If my wife were in an active affair, I would do everything I could to get evidence and expose that for what it was.

Good luck to you!

Originally Posted by curtis7
I was reflecting on my entire sitch over the past few days so I went back and read all of my cliff notes from the relationship/self-help books I've read since BD. Specifically, I re-read my DR notes and reviewed the initial list of marriage goals that I set in mid-December.

Here is the list:

1) I want her to be back with me by the end of January, building emotional desire, and finding lost feelings of love.
2) I want her to spend time with me and work on activities and projects together.
3) I want her to reconnect and experience her sexual fantasies with me.
4) I want to take her on dates.
5) I want us to talk about our future plans and goals together so we can have a shared vision and purpose.
6) I want her to call or text me occasionally to see how I'm doing and feeling.
7) I want her to feel comfortable around me to initiate conversation.
8) I want to have faith and trust in her again.

Now, over 6 months later, I realize none of these goals have been met and I can't say much progress has been made towards any of them. Maybe #7, but that's mostly neighborly small talk.

In retrospect, I need to assign a more realistic timeline to each of these goals and keep asking myself if what I'm doing is bringing me closer towards or farther from success. Early on after BD, I never imagined my sitch would play out the way it has and I was more optimistic that she would return to the MR more quickly. However, this is a marathon, not a sprint. At that time, I never appreciated the power of a limerant affair on a person and how irrational and selfish the thoughts of a WW could be.

I have concluded that: 1) I had very lofty expectations, 2) am very bad at DB, and/or 3) she has truly moved on and there is no hope that will ever change. I prefer to accept a combination of #1 and #2 as I still have hope.

Most of these are big goals and almost none of them are achievable while she is in an active A. I don't want to lose sight of these goals, but perhaps I should think small. As MWD writes: "The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step." Michelle writes about taking stock, if things are better, but not quite there yet, re-visit positively-stated, action-oriented, and doable goals to achieve in the next few weeks.

I do feel DB has helped reduce some of the anger WW had towards me. GAL, Validation, Acting As If, 180s, Time and Space seem to have helped in that respect. I just don't see the possibility in meeting any significant marriage goals while the A continues...patience is paramount right now.
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 06/28/19 08:55 PM

Originally Posted by HrtHsbnd
I donít know how you guys do it. If my wife were in an active affair, I would do everything I could to get evidence and expose that for what it was.
Hurt, Iíve got all the evidence anyone would need. The question to ask is what good is it. Exposure will shame them, but it doesnít necessarily mean theyíll wake up and return to the MR. It also makes the path home significantly more difficult. I used to have a different opinion on spying/snooping in that it was helpful to gather intel. Now, I feel differently b/c every time I find evidence of her cheating it triggers negative and painful emotional responses. It makes me question whether standing for my MR is the right choice. Not good for my psyche nor DBing. I have become more and more numb to her WW and cheating with each discovery. It really makes you think why stay in a R with a person that could betray and hurt you this bad.
Posted By: MrBrside

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 06/28/19 09:43 PM

Hi Curtis,

I was exactly where you are until the 4th March - even after all the attempts at DB, its hard - i was still checking the phone etc. She put the nail in the coffin with some comments about my Grandad, and that was it for me. It was the cruelest, but best thing she ever said.. In terms of your sitch, your summary above shows you really need to detach or else it will eat you up. Your WW is showing zero respect for you. Your children also see this. Take back your self respect, and they will respect you as well for being strong. Even in 3, 5 , 10 years.. They will know you gave it 100% for six months. Do you really want to be where you are now in another 6 months?

Your WW is being led by her emotions for her own selfish gratification. She is cake eating, showing zero respect and neglecting your children.

Like i mentioned before, she has lost nothing, or doesnt care about that she has lost.. And she doesnt care about hurting you. At some point, you really need to consider yourself. Your children know you tried and tried. But they will also respect your for walking away.
Posted By: ovrrnbw

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 06/28/19 11:26 PM

Curtis,

have you read a lot of the old threads about affair busting? If not, I'd recommend it. IMO you've waited too long to bust the affair. She's moved out. In most people's mind, y'all are separated and she's free to do what she wants. So this affair busting attempt comes off as a controlling, weak attempt to force her back to you. Yet every time she yanks your chain you are there. She comes and goes at your place as she pleases because of.......*drumroll please*...... a horse.

Forget. That. Horse.

And why do you keep going an hunting down evidence about all the OM? What has that accomplished? Seriously, what has that done to help your sitch?

You eat crap on a daily basis and then go looking for more. Why? Move on.

Quote
I just don't see the possibility in meeting any significant marriage goals while the A continues...patience is paramount right now.


Well yea! Anyone could say that. So if you're choice is to wait it out you need to at least PRETEND like you are moving on with life. Get rid of the horse, set a parenting schedule AND stick to it, and then stop talking to her outside of children's logistics. Eliminate all unnecessary conversation. You're trying to keep in touch and keep her coming around the house b/c you think it will get her back.
Posted By: MrBrside

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 06/29/19 07:00 AM

/\ /\ /\ /\ /\ - THIS !!!

Ovrrnbw just expressed everything i wanted to write but didnt want to offend. Lose the horse and stop her coming over unless to drop the children off.. I'm sure it will help you massivly !
Posted By: joejoe1

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 06/29/19 12:58 PM

Curtis,

I agree with everything Ovr wrote to you. He gave you great advice. You know what's great about this forum, it's that people give their time and advice for free. His advice is worth more than what any person you can pay, can give you. After I got DBed I went crazy, charging my credit cards looking for answers, talking to this expert and that expert, and all along, my best advice, came from Sandi, AS, other experts and fellow DBers here.

I skimmed through your sitch, and I don't have to read it all, because your WW needs the same actions as any other, tough love.

You should read "Love must be tough", by James Dobson. The best chance you have of getting your W back now, is completely letting her go an moving forward with your life. Not moving "on" but forward.

It's we are telling you that's not going to be painful. But every person on here is trying to do is help you prepare for pain, but you start this journey of letting go and moving forward. We are giving you a baseline which in turn helps you deal with the pain more efficiently. There is no way around this process and your WW is use to you allowing her to do things that she want to do, when you stop expect her to get angry, mad, threaten you, make declarations.

Maybe this will help, I reshifted/refocused my priorities, mines was:

1. Wife
2. Kids
3. Me
4. Everybody else

During DB:

1. Kids
2. Me
3. GAL
4. Me
5. Me
6. Me

My WW became my last priority. I didn't tell her she was, I showed her through my actions. I wasn't mean, nasty, but I never went out of my way to do things for her and if she asked me for something, I would do it in a respectable time and way.

Your know your WW is cheating, you thinking espousing them is about them. You don't have to make a grand ole announcement to inform your WW of her actions. You can sit her down, just you two let her know what evidence you have. You can also state your boundaries and what you want in a M. After that you move forward, you don't say it again.

You are trying to hard to control your WW actions, stop it, stop it.

In reading your 8 goals, you put way too much pressure and expectations on yourself. You are right, they are very lofty and you are right you should "think small".

They are way to ambitious. Look, you can't rush this. The first thing you want is respect from your WW. Sex, attention, conversation, save that for recon and eventual M.

Goals

1. Inform her of your boundaries (know your boundaries and the consequences first)
2. Respect yourself, by not allowing her to disrespect you, inturn gaining her respect
3. Love tough (not mean, nasty, or hurtful)
4. Look out for signs of her shifting her actions (coming out the fog) Note them when you see them

Examples, I wrote down( yours will be different). My W texting me asking for help, my W texting me to tell me random things about her day. My wife touching me in any way. My wife, asking me about my day. My wife asking me what I want for dinner, her asking to watch a show together. Her changing her language, from I'm done to, I'm not sure what I want. Her saying "her future", to "our future" or using the word "we".

Her doing just one or two of those most likely not her changing her direction towards me again, but her doing multiple of those things, consistently, shows a change. Look out for your W changing direction, by you changing direction.

You got this Curt..

Onward and forward

Your old W is gone, she is become a new person, are you prepared for her? IMO, you are not, because you aren't woro on yourself worrying about her so much.
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/02/19 07:20 PM

Originally Posted by joejoe1
I agree with everything Ovr wrote to you. He gave you great advice. You know what's great about this forum, it's that people give their time and advice for free. His advice is worth more than what any person you can pay, can give you. After I got DBed I went crazy, charging my credit cards looking for answers, talking to this expert and that expert, and all along, my best advice, came from Sandi, AS, other experts and fellow DBers here.

I skimmed through your sitch, and I don't have to read it all, because your WW needs the same actions as any other, tough love.

You should read "Love must be tough", by James Dobson. The best chance you have of getting your W back now, is completely letting her go an moving forward with your life. Not moving "on" but forward.

JoeJoe, I agree that advice from Over and the other experts is $$$. Finding the courage to follow it can be a challenge at times because it is counter-intuitive. It is sinking in, but Iíve certainly slipped up along the way.

Iíve also read Dobsonís book and it gave me a good understanding and confidence to apply Tough Love.


Originally Posted by joejoe1
Goals

1. Inform her of your boundaries (know your boundaries and the consequences first)
2. Respect yourself, by not allowing her to disrespect you, inturn gaining her respect
3. Love tough (not mean, nasty, or hurtful)
4. Look out for signs of her shifting her actions (coming out the fog) Note them when you see them

Examples, I wrote down (yours will be different). My W texting me asking for help, my W texting me to tell me random things about her day. My wife touching me in any way. My wife, asking me about my day. My wife asking me what I want for dinner, her asking to watch a show together. Her changing her language, from I'm done to, I'm not sure what I want. Her saying "her future", to "our future" or using the word "we".

Her doing just one or two of those most likely not her changing her direction towards me again, but her doing multiple of those things, consistently, shows a change. Look out for your W changing direction, by you changing direction.

Those examples are perfect and are what I want. I would be ecstatic with her starting to do a few of those.
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/02/19 07:35 PM

Greetings, this post lays out the potential plan and options Iím considering to follow in the coming weeks and months. This is the culmination of my research reading relationship and self-help books, listening to podcasts, watching videos on cheating, following advice from vets on my thread and others, and scouring countless sitches here to find what works and doesnít work.

I have given a lot of thought on whether to stay or go due to the Infidelity and chose to stay for a period of time. I accept that BD and the Aís mean the end of my first MR, but I still would like to start a new MR with my W. I have chosen to love and forgive. I have recovered, worked on myself, and am ready to extend this choice to her.

I have listed these in the sequence I would intend to follow and the likelihood that WW would go ballistic by me taking these steps.

1. Ask W to attend RetroV

Simple question to WW, without much pressure. Gives her the opportunity to look at the program info and decide if our 18 year R is worth 1 weekend of participating. The hope is she would attend, listen to the presenting couples, really start to communicate with me, and have a life changing experience to realize that our MR isnít that bad and can get better. I know that many donít recommend RetroV until the WAS has expressed interest in R, however, I donít see much harm in asking if sheís willing to attend. My expectation is low that she would agree to go.

2. Ask W to attend MC

Honestly, Iím not a fan of this option based on her mindset and active Aís. Even if she agreed to go, I donít know that I could actually find a pro-MR C that would be able to get her to look at us from a different perspective. I have much higher hopes with RetroV based on the format and environment. I would probably skip over this one in the short-term.

3. Ask Sandi2 to talk sense into WW

Mildly joking...but seriously Sandi, I would pay for your flight to Florida and I have a nice guest room in a pool home. How does that sound?

4. Continue giving W time and space

Iím really at the point where Iím over this. Patience is hard, especially when you know the betrayal and lies continue. First known PA was over 7 months ago and sheís had multiple APs, Iím not a martyr to wait forever for her to come out of the fog / valley on her own without action.

5. Confront WW on what I want, reinforce boundary, give her the choice, and move forward.

This is the option that I have researched the most and is coupled with letting her go and tough love. I have read dozens of sitches that addressed confrontation followed by a hard stance of enforcing boundaries with consequences, going dim/dark, moving forward, and/or filing for D. Obviously, each sitch is somewhat unique and this approach has varying levels of success. Timing is critical.

Iíve read many posts from PuppyDogTails, RobX, Sandi2, R2C, AS, Steve85, LH19, TxHubby, Joejoe1, Coach, Greek, Wonka, TimeHeals, FightingFit, GH31, Rockedworld, Theoden, SmileysPerson, Zues126, CDBear, Pinhead, etc. containing scripts and outcomes on confrontation. I highly recommend newcomers read sitches of the DBers listed above when considering whether to apply Tough Love.

Iím still working on scripts and the strength of the statements to make. I have a few different versions that Iím refining. The basic message is to say that waiting for her to makeup her mind is no longer working for me. As long as sheís disrespecting me, our MR, and our family by having a relationship with someone else, that she cannot have a relationship with me. If she continues to contact OM, I will consider all of my options, including D. I tell her that Iím moving forward with my life, then go dim/dark, stop feeding cake (try to get the horse off my property), and only communicate logistics regarding kids.

The goal here is to regain some respect, open the cage door, and let her go to maybe hit rock bottom.

6. File for D w/out notice

Self explanatory. My beliefs and morals have been compromised far too long as it is. Start moving down the path to restore a life that aligns with my moral compass.

7. Let her know we wonít be friends

This option follows one of PuppyDogTails confrontations with his WW. Here is the script:
ĒI should be clear with you about something. I have absolutely no intention of remaining 'best friends' with you if you choose to end our marriage this way -- by having an affair, running away, and lying to your parents and our children about it. We'll be civil, and we'll co-parent effectively, I'm sure, but we won't be friends. If you decide to end your affair now, however, and come back and work on this with me, going to marriage counseling, each of us addressing our issues, and it doesn't work out -- say after a year -- and we choose to divorce, then yes, I could see a time where eventually we could become good friends again, even though it won't be the same. But not what you're doing now, I'm sorry. This is NOT how friends treat each other, and I respect myself too much to put up with a so-called 'friend' who would do that to me."

I share Puppyís sentiments regarding how my WW chose to BD, lie, cheat, and separate without ever giving me a chance. If my sitch continues down this path, I have no problem delivering this message.

8. Send group text to APs

Tell the multiple OM to stay away from my W and stop destroying a young family or possibly better yet let them know about her lies with multiple partners and let them battle it out. Unlikely that I would take this step, but rather take the high road as opposed to these predators.

9. Expose the Aís to her family and friends

AllenA was a staunch supporter of exposing the A to everyone. Puppy is another that applied this approach.

Here are some excerpts from AllenAís posts:

ďPublicly expose her choosing an affair over her family and her home... make sure all her friends and family KNOW and that they also know you want to save your marriage. Educate them that you want to save your marriage and that you have invited your wife to work on the marriage and she is choosing to pursue her affair instead. SAY it like that. You putting all that pressure on her is what forces her to make a real tough choice...This is the best way to end this for you... Cut her OFF at the knees and see if she comes to her senses...Not all do, but its the best chance you have...Choosing
a. Marriage
b. infidelity.
These are the choices...Ē

ďItís also your job to protect your wife from the "grass is greener mentality" and momentary infatuations - these aren't MEN she's cheating with, they are PREDATORS.. they are exploiting her emotional vulnerability, it is your responsibility to protect her from THEM. Pursue no, PROTEST and EXPOSE -- YES. Educate your wife, get her into family therapy and teach her what marriage means in relation to an affair... and the dangers of infatuations and fantasy... she will just get used and hurt in the long run... my wife got used bigtime.Ē

I know that MWD is not an advocate of exposure:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2238652#Post2238652

AS and others currently posting regularly donít seem to be either: ďI think most LBS's are hoping it moves them from Plan B status to Plan A, but it never, ever does. It just creates a lot of resentment in the WAS, and usually the A will continue but go even deeper undercover (their attitude usually becomes "it's us against the world"). The thing is, she's separated and most WAS's don't consider it an "affair" after separation, to them they're just moving on to a new R. They think they're only "married" in the sense that some pesky piece of paper filed somewhere says so. I know you don't agree with that but that's her point of view right now.Ē

Highly unlikely that I would take this step as it doesnít seem to leave the road home paved and smooth. I just view this approach as causing far too much damage that kills any will to return. Not going to spend many calories on this option.

Ok community, thatís all I have right now. Feel free to weigh in with your comments, feedback, recommendations, 2x4ís, etc. I do appreciate everyone taking the time to read my sitch and contribute. It has helped me immensely in taking positive steps emotionally and with my life in general since BD.
Posted By: LH19

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/02/19 07:53 PM

C,

Either 4

5 if consequences are divorce

6

If you choose 1 or 2 please put a jock strap on first.
Posted By: CWarrior

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/02/19 07:56 PM

Hi Curtis, re: Approach 9, if I read your story correctly, she announced the marriage was over before there were any sex with OM. When I left my ex-wife, filed D papers, and separated--I also viewed new partners as new relationships. I don't know that I would've been greatly embarrassed by such an e-mail. I'd simply tell them know I'd already separated.. and I couldn't confirm or deny if I was getting new partners 10years younger. wink If she or her parents are very established in a church, perhaps that's different.


Posted By: Ready2Change

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/02/19 08:45 PM



Hi Curtis,


That is the best post I have read on these forums. You sound like you have done your homework. You understand many of your best options. You may understand the pro's and con's of each.


When you decide what you want to do, make your choice and live with the consequences of that choice. Just understand that timing is important for any of the choices. Some of them might be too late, others too early. Only you can truly determine this.


I wish you well.
Posted By: Ready2Change

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/02/19 09:04 PM

Originally Posted by curtis7


1. Ask W to attend RetroV

2. Ask W to attend MC

3. Ask Sandi2 to talk sense into WW

4. Continue giving W time and space. FOCUS ON MY PERSONAL GROWTH

5. Confront WW on what I want, reinforce boundary, give her the choice, and move forward.

6. File for D w/out notice

7. Let her know we wonít be friends

8. Send group text to APs

9. Expose the Aís to her family and friends



I don't see anything good about 8.
Timing not right for 1,2,3,9


Blending of 4/5/7 would be best. 6 when you are ready.
Posted By: AnotherStander

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/02/19 09:04 PM

Curtis, I've been to Retrou and one requirement they have is that both of you have to be willing to work on the M and there cannot be an OP in the picture. They will call each of you in advance and specifically ask you A) are you at least willing to consider reconciling, and B) can you assure us there is no 3rd party- boyfriend/ girlfriend/ romantic interest. If the answer to either (not both) of those is no, then you will not be allowed in. I would say there's no way your W is replying yes to both of those so that option is a no-go.

Option 2, with where she is right now, even if she agrees to go it will be to justify her actions. She won't go with the intent of working on the M and they won't be able to make her.

Option 3, if anyone could talk sense into her it would be Sandi, but unfortunately there is no talking sense into her right now.

Option 4 YES

Option 5 I absolutely support this, but you have GOT to be willing to enforce your boundaries even if that means filing for D. If you state boundaries and she poops on them and you do nothing then you're in a far worse position than if you had just remained silent. MAKE SURE you are ready to proceed with your ramifications before doing this.

Option 6 I would say it's way too soon for that.

Option 7 yes absolutely, should be a part of 5.

Options 8 and 9 you already know what I'm going to say since you posted my quote, I'm impressed you had that at your fingertips by the way smile

Originally Posted by LH19
If you choose 1 or 2 please put a jock strap on first.


I was thinking a cup actually. Flame retardant. grin
Posted By: AnotherStander

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/02/19 09:05 PM

Dammit R2C, how do you manage to say what I say in like 1/10 the words grin
Posted By: Ready2Change

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/02/19 09:10 PM

Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Dammit R2C, how do you manage to say what I say in like 1/10 the words grin

I like you you clarify my 10 words with 100. Helps others understand better! cool
Posted By: MrBrside

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/03/19 10:28 AM

I'm a little confused by most of these points ? Apart from point (6) to me they look way too much like you are still way too attached. Nothing you have tried so far has worked, yet you have spent time and effort listing ( in my eyes ) listing items that will probably make no difference / are pursuit... Time and effort that could have been used on GAL, time with the kids etc.
Posted By: Destroyd

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/03/19 10:57 AM

Letting her know we won't be friends--I have been wanting to say this to my wife as well, but I didn't know if it is part of DBing. I see know way that I could be friends with someone who abandons me. There is no way I could envision myself being friends after the pain she has put me through. Do you think I should tell her this? If so, how would you say it?

The reason why I want to say this to her is to tell her that there will be consequences to her walking away. I would hope that this knowledge could convince her to work hard to fix our marriage, because otherwise their will be consequences and these consequences will negatively affect her, me and especially our kids.
Posted By: IHCLACS

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/03/19 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by Destroyd
Letting her know we won't be friends--I have been wanting to say this to my wife as well, but I didn't know if it is part of DBing. I see know way that I could be friends with someone who abandons me. There is no way I could envision myself being friends after the pain she has put me through. Do you think I should tell her this? If so, how would you say it?

The reason why I want to say this to her is to tell her that there will be consequences to her walking away. I would hope that this knowledge could convince her to work hard to fix our marriage, because otherwise their will be consequences and these consequences will negatively affect her, me and especially our kids.


That is unfortunately not their mindset or narrative. Their narrative usually is "I am doing this because I don't know who I am, I want to get away from you, I am repulsed by you, its all your fault I feel this way, I'm doing this for the kids, and to save myself, I want to be single, I want to be free, I want to be independent, you are of no use to me anymore, IANILWYA,I want to see other men, I want to explore life, I want to take care of and love myself first, I want to pursue my worldly selfish passions, and delude myself that it is not selfish to put myself first,I want to start over, etc, etc..." It is a spirit of rebellion, lies, deception, and lack of commitment to even themselvesIMO, and they will never admit it until they fall years and years later as a result of their poor choices, deluded thinking, whimsical desires, and subjective feelings without solid values or principles.
Posted By: ovrrnbw

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/03/19 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by Destroyd
Letting her know we won't be friends--I have been wanting to say this to my wife as well, but I didn't know if it is part of DBing. I see know way that I could be friends with someone who abandons me. There is no way I could envision myself being friends after the pain she has put me through. Do you think I should tell her this? If so, how would you say it?

The reason why I want to say this to her is to tell her that there will be consequences to her walking away. I would hope that this knowledge could convince her to work hard to fix our marriage, because otherwise their will be consequences and these consequences will negatively affect her, me and especially our kids.

Words are wind, and the only good wind is that which fills our sails.

Think again my friend.
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/03/19 08:43 PM

Originally Posted by Ready2Change
That is the best post I have read on these forums. You sound like you have done your homework. You understand many of your best options. You may understand the pro's and con's of each.

When you decide what you want to do, make your choice and live with the consequences of that choice. Just understand that timing is important for any of the choices. Some of them might be too late, others too early. Only you can truly determine this.

Thanks R2C!! I take a lot of pride in your acknowledgment.

Letís call that post part 1, part 2 will include scripts for the possible confrontation that gives her the choice.

I donít post too often, but Iíve been visiting the forums almost daily for over 6 months. A great deal of my time was spent reading archives and stumbling upon other members with similar sitches. This had a cascading effect of linking to more members either by chance, signature line details, or curiosity based on their posts in other LBS threads. I have various script excerpts that Iím sifting through and tailoring for my sitch. I should have been more diligent when reading through each members story. My notes are a bit scattered at the moment. I would have liked to better document which were successful and the timing of taking action.

I am very analytical in nature and gather a lot of relevant data and information on the subject matter so that I can make informed decisions when trying to solve problems. I must admit that the DB principles were new to me and not so logical as I didnít comprehend the mindset of a WW. Moreover, I really had never invested much time or energy to study what is required for a healthy and fulfilling relationship or marriage. From my perspective, that part of my life just came naturally and didnít seem to be approaching a crisis. I was blindsided by BD which shows my naivety and disconnect with my Wís feelings. So, yes, I have spent an inordinate amount of time here in the background, but I think that speaks to the value and importance I place on my W, MR, and family.

Excellent advice to take time to consider these options and stand by my decision. Navigating to find the right time is key. I may step back for a while to focus on GAL and more patience, time, and space.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander

Originally Posted by LH19
If you choose 1 or 2 please put a jock strap on first.

I was thinking a cup actually. Flame retardant. grin

LH and AS, yeah jock strap doesnít offer enough protection, need to add the cup.
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/11/19 12:47 PM

Need help, W just texted.

W: Do you think this 2/3/2 schedule is too difficult for kids (and us). For example the socks this morning, camp shirts... S8ís I cannot find, and just the back and forth.

I thought she was going to push for each of us keeping the kids for a full week and I was going to respond as follows.

H: Any back and forth is hard on all of us. I want what is best for the kids.

Then she texted again.

W: And...there is something, won't talk about so please don't ask, that has revealed to me my inability to be a decent human being. I can still help as needed but wondering if for now...if better that kids have limited exposure to me.

Havenít responded to anything yet.
Posted By: LH19

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/11/19 01:00 PM

It sounds like you are dealing with some challenges. I am really sorry. I would live to have the kids more often.
Posted By: SteveLW

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/11/19 01:14 PM

curtis, jump at this. It is in the kid's best interest to have a stable environment. Sounds like she is unwilling or unable to provide that. So take full custody (document this!) and put your kids first.
Posted By: AnotherStander

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/11/19 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by curtis7
W: And...there is something, won't talk about so please don't ask, that has revealed to me my inability to be a decent human being. I can still help as needed but wondering if for now...if better that kids have limited exposure to me.


Curtis, are you OK with full custody? If so then you might reply with something like "W, if you are asking if I am willing to take full custody then yes I will. I think we need to draw this up and both sign it as an agreement just so there's no confusion going forward. Please let me know what you are proposing as far as your visitation." Then like Steve said, DOCUMENT it all. Whether your W knows it or not, this will mean EVERYTHING to the court in the D. If you have a written agreement and she changes her mind later, but you can produce the the above text she wrote you plus the written agreement, then she's toast. DO NOT tell her you are saving all this, let her implicate herself and just quietly take screen shots and such to document it. I don't remember if you have a L but if not, you may want to retain one to get prepared.
Posted By: MrBrside

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/11/19 02:26 PM

Curtis,

I cannot get my head around why any mother would send that type of message..

If you can work the full custody thing ( with work etc ) jump at the chance. I dont think it will be plain sailing for the children, as in their head they will probably see that there mum doesnt want them etc, but thats out of your control - Just be the best dad you can for them...

But at the same time, is it futher cake eating from the WW.? .. ie get you to take the custody while she has her fun...

ie

she decides she wants to see the kids today.. Not a problem, ill go round the house and ride the horse and see them then... when it suits ME... the leave you to sort the food, clothes, washing, baths, homework, schools runs... and shes off to OM54 or OM55...

If you were to consider this, i would consider strong boundaries ( which you need to enforce ) relating to as and when she visits.. in relation to both the children and the horse.. Otherwise its all on her terms as per usual.
Posted By: SteveLW

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/11/19 02:28 PM

helpme, good call. Once he has full custody post-D, then they can set up a visitation schedule.
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/11/19 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by helpme12
I cannot get my head around why any mother would send that type of message..

But at the same time, is it futher cake eating from the WW.? .. ie get you to take the custody while she has her fun.

I am really struggling with why she would send this message as well. Of course, we know logic isnít at the forefront of the WW mind. Iím not sure she really ever wanted kids, but she knew I wanted them, so we did. She was an excellent mother and tried to put the kids first for a long time.

The optimistic side of me wants to believe that she is really battling some inner demons and wants some time and isolation to figure it out. However, the pessimistic side of me thinks that this is to free up more time for OM by removing additional interference. Either way, I would prefer more than 50/50 with the kids regardless of her motives.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Curtis, are you OK with full custody?

I am. I love my kids and want them in my life everyday. Iím not out looking for someone else. If that day comes in the future, then my kids are still a priority. I donít know that I can ever allow another woman to have the power over me that my W had after all that Iíve experienced since BD. The well being of my kids takes precedence.

Originally Posted by Steve85
curtis, jump at this. It is in the kid's best interest to have a stable environment. Sounds like she is unwilling or unable to provide that. So take full custody (document this!) and put your kids first.

Thanks Steve, I agree on stability for the kids. Going to reply now.
Posted By: ovrrnbw

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/11/19 03:03 PM

helpme,

Even if it is cake eating, I think Curtis should stay strong and do what's right for the kids. It just shows that she even does not feel fit to parent at the moment. It may help him in custody, but also just goes to show us LBS's how much mental pain the WAS's are in.

Stay cool Curtis, and do the right thing.
Posted By: MrBrside

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/11/19 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by ovrrnbw


Even if it is cake eating, I think Curtis should stay strong and do what's right for the kids.


100% agree.. But he also needs to look out for himself at the same time, to ensure he can carry on being the best dad he can be... We all have the same background ( to a degree ) here and we all know how these WW mess with our heads.. Its obvious from Curtis's posts that his WW has no limits on cake eating, and the impact it has on him.

He needs to stay strong, but not let the WW impact on his health / decissions / state of mind.. And i personaly think the best way to do that is to try and limit the damage the WW can do we setting boundaries and stop her cake eating / abusing his good nature - things which she has done in the past, and have affected Curtis.. The best way to stop this is to not let her actions impact / control you.

Curtis, like i mentioned on one of your posts, reducing the contact will also help you with detachment. You can then focus on your children and not what she is doing.
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/12/19 02:30 PM

W didnít respond to my text. I took S8 to baseball practice, then brought him over to her affair house afterwards. W wasnít there quite yet as she was still at my place feeding her horse. I waited inside with the kids until she got back. Noticed a new handwritten note on her refrigerator stating something along the lines of ďYou are toxic to everyone, STOP!!!Ē

When she arrived a few minutes later she was bright and cheery and didnít seem dejected at all which was surprising based on her text yesterday morning. She asked me to stay until the kids were showered and into bed. I stayed and said goodnight to the kids, then she received a call at exactly 10pm and she quickly declined it. She engaged in a text exchange for the next 5 minutes. This was interesting as the exact same thing happened at the exact same time 2 weeks ago when we were at a neighborís house to wish him well as he was leaving for Europe for the summer. 10pm must be her prearranged time to talk with her AP.

We then discussed her text and the kids. W confirmed that she wants me to take them full time (I donít have anything in writing yet). She reiterated that she didnít want to share the details as to what was revealed to her and I didnít probe further. Those are her problems right now, she knows where the lighthouse is if sheís ever ready. She said she canít focus on them right now and they pick up on that. She said she feels bad sitting them in front of the TV all the time and also has a short temper with them. She added that divorced BFF thought this was best too (of course). I told her I understand and that I would take them as often as I could. She said she didnít know how long we would have this arrangement, but she said probably not long, whatever that means.

Her actions show me that the request for me to take greater responsibility with the kids are to enable her to spend more time with OM/GGW. It may be enabling, but I would rather put my kids first right now and keep them in a stable environment where they arenít being neglected due to her selfish WW.

She can do what she wants. Iím going to keep living my life and making the best of it for me and the kids. Iíve been keeping up with hitting the weights at the gym, playing volleyball a few times week, attending church, reading books, spending time with friends, and coaching youth baseball. GAL is good with the exception of no love life. Having the opportunity to be around the kids everyday and being able to give and receive fatherly love is a good trade off for no sex life right now and keeps me from feeling lonely. Staying grateful and focusing on the positives.
Posted By: LH19

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/12/19 02:45 PM

C,

I think itís really important you get something in writing.
Posted By: IHCLACS

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/12/19 03:05 PM

Curtis. You are looking at a parent's perfect opportunity especially being a male with our court system. Get a declaration in writing. Re-assess her condition when you go to D-court and decide to use it or not. Or. You can use it and have her request modification when and if she levels out
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/16/19 04:06 AM

Thought I would share some more recent interaction with my WW. I have noticed a slight change in her behavior over the past month. This started a few days before I left with the kids on our vacation to California. W has been much more apt to start up conversation about inconsequential topics such as home improvement projects at her affair house, changes she noticed around my house on things Iíve bought or rearranged, the plight of divorced BFF, and other general chit chat.

W also mentioned that she deactivated her Facebook account because she was never on there and itís a waste of time in her life. I know she was on the Hinge dating app for a while that links people up through friend networks on Facebook. Could be she wanted to cut that off or wants to erase the history of our life so OM canít see LBH in the pics. Who knows.

She has invited me in to her place a couple of times recently and offered a beer or glass of wine and some appetizers. I have accepted most of her invitations when I didnít have something else to go do. She likes to show me around the house with all the projects sheís worked on and things she would like to change. Itís like she is seeking my approval. The place is a real DIY nightmare, but itís hers and she gets a sense of accomplishment in that she hasnít had to rely on anyone else. I do believe the feeling of independence is important for her self-esteem. The things she is talking about at that place will take many months to accomplish so I get the impression she has zero intention of leaving there anytime soon.

Iíve been busy coaching S8ís baseball team. S8 is somewhat of a phenom, has been athletically gifted since 2 years old. He led his team to two tournament championships in the past couple weeks. In the first weekend tournament he hit 7 homers in 5 games. Afterwards, he called my dad and told him this was the best day of his life. Made me smile, but sad that his mother wasnít there to see it. Then, this past weekendís tournament he hit 4 homers and 4 triples in 4 games. Again, mom was a no show.

I took D4 to a local them park a week ago. We had a blast. Thoroughly enjoyed bonding with my baby girl. I agreed to drop her at divorced BFFís apartment afterwards as WW was there with S8. Divorced BFF was friendly (overly), she gave me a tour of her apartment, offered me a beer and appetizer. The behavior of her and WW was all very weird. A lot of reminiscing about the past. She got emotional about her ex not being her friend. I said to myself what did she expect when he gave her the choice to work on the MR and she declined? Divorced BFF also asked about living with me when her lease ran out, I had a dumbfounded look on myself in utter disbelief that she asked that, hopefully it was a joke. WW started getting texts, probably her OM, she engaged in those like I wasnít even there. I wasnít going to tolerate the disrespect. I finished the food, stayed pleasant and upbeat, said goodbye to the kids and got out of there.

Now for the hypocrisy, the night before the kids and I returned from the California trip, W told me she was over at our neighbors place for a late night drink. This guy also trains her horse. She told me the story the next day and how he was making some suggestive comments to her. She felt the need to tell me adamantly that nothing happened, which tells me something did (believe nothing of what they say). She said she can handle it and take care of herself. She told him youíre married. Iím married still (not sure what meaning being married to me holds for her). She finished by saying ďtrust me.Ē This after in December she was vehement in saying ďdonít trust me.Ē The lies and deceit know no bounds.

She sent a text to divorced BFF that her and I are good friends and co-parents right now. Thatís not good enough for me. It could be for a time being if she didnít continue with multiple OM, but those are her choices. I can only enforce my boundaries with consequences.

Here is what I believe. This is cake eating at its finest. She is taking complete advantage of me and my kindness and sprinkling crumbs here and there while she allows OM to feast on her. She wants me securely in the friend zone and as a co-parent so her secret relationships arenít exposed or compromised.

There is more that Iíll share another time, but here is where I stand based on most recent developments. I am completely over this. She has had a year since the first EA started, 8 months since the first PA that I could confirm, has been involved with at least a half dozen OM. Iím done. Iíve pushed aside my morals and values for far too long. Sheís had ample opportunity to end this behavior. It is now a dealbreaker for me. She can go be happy with OM and divorced BFF, I want something better and more honest and moral for myself and my kids.

Time to work on the final confrontation speech and get D paperwork prepared. Moving forward...
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/16/19 04:29 AM

Here is some good advice in dealing with WW/midlife spouse affairs I had saved in my notes for many months, canít remember the source so I apologize for not giving proper credit:

When you discover an affair, it becomes an issue of self respect, plus an issue of respecting a decision made by your spouse that you wouldnít make, but they have chosen to make.

The major lesson the wayward midlife spouse should learn is that no person can ever have it both ways, nor have the best of both worlds. So, because you respect yourself enough not to participate in a triangular relational situation, you simply make it clear that as long as theyíre having a relationship with someone else, that they cannot have a relationship with you. Then, you step back, go dark, go silent, do something else, but remove yourself completely from that equation.

No, youíre not giving an ultimatum, youíre extending a choice only the cheater can make. An ultimatum is demanding a choiceĖyou or themÖ

Only using the marriage as a ďfail-safeĒ or a ďfall backĒ just in case the affair doesnít work out.

Left behind spouse is only human, and has a clear limit to how far they will go before they might eventually choose to file for a divorce because of physical adultery.

Midlife spouses are often so entitled and arrogant, they really donít believe they could be ďleft behind.Ē Yes, they really think theyíre that special, that much of a prize, and why they think that is based on outside circumstances. They have someone to have fun with, while they also have someone who will take care of business. They have it good, while they have two people who want them at the same time. But when they begin losing, and they finally open their eyes to the losing of someone they really did NOT intend to loseĖwhich is the left behind spouse, then things should start to change, although it will take time, before you might see any results.

STOP fighting them, back off, make your intentions known as respecting their choice, and cut off contact with them.

How should you act? Calm, cool, and collected, because remember, you are NOT losing anything IF the midlife spouse decides to go ahead, and go on with the affair partner. That would be the worst mistake the midlife spouse could make, but hey, itís their mistake, not yours. Youíre letting them have what they say they want, because you know you canít make them break up with the affair partner, and return to youĖyou canít control them, their wants, their needs, nor their desires. You can only decide to remove yourself from an equation they tried to create for the purpose of keeping themselves entertained, and happy.

You donít want them returning because you forced them to, you want them to return because they wanted to.

When/If the midlife spouse finally wakes up, and begins to realize youíre unreachable, they might decide the affair partner isnít worth their time and attention after all.

They will recognize the affair for the fantasy it is, as their decision and time separates them from the fantasy theyíve been living in.
Posted By: LH19

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/16/19 10:24 AM

C,

First off I want to say that I think you are doing great under your circumstances.

I think the problem you're having is when your reading DB and other situations you are not understanding the differences in the situations. I never have hid the fact that I think your W is the lowest of the low of WWs. The disrespect she has shown you over the last year is despicable. You can't be accepting these invites into her house for a drink or invites to BFFs apartment.

Convos about kids and finances nothing else.

I am going to suggest to you that before you go to the final ultimatum that you try some tough love first.

Start with giving her two weeks to get her horse off your property. Start with " W I've been thinking about it and this arrangement isn't working for me anymore".

of course if you decide to go ultimatum run the scenario by the board. N
Posted By: joejoe1

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/16/19 10:37 AM

Curt,

I agree with LH. You are too available to your WW. You are ALLOWING the disrespect to occur. This is how I see it. If you are going to allow the disrespect to occur, them it will continue. When you stop it, it will stop. From everything you have wrote, you are the best friend of your W and her BFF. You are their best friend, I know that don't feel good.

So, it your decision to eject out of that sitch. Like LH said, please stop accepting her invites for drinks and apps. And allow her to figure out what to do with her animal.

Joe
Posted By: AnotherStander

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/16/19 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by curtis7
I have noticed a slight change in her behavior over the past month. This started a few days before I left with the kids on our vacation to California. W has been much more apt to start up conversation about inconsequential topics such as home improvement projects at her affair house, changes she noticed around my house on things Iíve bought or rearranged, the plight of divorced BFF, and other general chit chat.


That's consistent with the "I just want us to be good friends and coparents" philosophy a lot of WAS's take up.

Quote
The place is a real DIY nightmare, but itís hers and she gets a sense of accomplishment in that she hasnít had to rely on anyone else. I do believe the feeling of independence is important for her self-esteem.


Yeah I think a lot of WAS's feel like they've been chained down or held back or whatever by marriage and just want to prove to themselves that they can make it on their own. My XW said that was a big motivating factor of hers.

Quote
Iíve been busy coaching S8ís baseball team. S8 is somewhat of a phenom, has been athletically gifted since 2 years old. He led his team to two tournament championships in the past couple weeks. In the first weekend tournament he hit 7 homers in 5 games. Afterwards, he called my dad and told him this was the best day of his life. Made me smile, but sad that his mother wasnít there to see it. Then, this past weekendís tournament he hit 4 homers and 4 triples in 4 games. Again, mom was a no show.


Fantastic! Regarding your W not being there, unfortunately you can't make her be a good mom. If she chooses to be a crap mother then you've just got to double down on being a great dad.

Quote
Time to work on the final confrontation speech and get D paperwork prepared. Moving forward...


Confrontation speech? I'm curious what your intent with that is, are you hoping it will snap her out of it? If you're done then file, no need for speeches. The speech will not accomplish anything. Listen to your own advice! This:

Quote
How should you act? Calm, cool, and collected, because remember, you are NOT losing anything IF the midlife spouse decides to go ahead, and go on with the affair partner. That would be the worst mistake the midlife spouse could make, but hey, itís their mistake, not yours. Youíre letting them have what they say they want, because you know you canít make them break up with the affair partner, and return to youĖyou canít control them, their wants, their needs, nor their desires. You can only decide to remove yourself from an equation they tried to create for the purpose of keeping themselves entertained, and happy.


There you go, simply remove yourself from the equation, what do you think that would look like?
Posted By: MrBrside

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/16/19 11:51 AM

Curtis,

LH is bang on - And its been said before.. Tough love.. Especially the horse thing...

To truelly detach, get her away from you.. She is using you / playing game -

I don't believe it will wake her up. I personally feel that she will just try different ways to expolit your niceness / character and come at it from other angles.. She likes her cake too much - with the icing on the cake being her friend, who validates her on every decission... She cant be in the wrong, its all you, hes a jerk... it cant be me !! - because best mate agrees with me..

Originally Posted by helpme12


Like i mentioned before, she has lost nothing


At the moment she has the best of every situation( in her twisted head )

She has the kids "when suits", she has you being "friendly / drinks / still being positive" , she has the OM / multiple OM, she has her new love pad, she has the horse at your place and she has the best mate validating her ever irrational thought.. But at the moment, this is her new norm and its what she wants...
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/16/19 01:41 PM

LH, JoeJoe, AS, HelpMe,

You are all correct. Iíve made myself too available to her. Iíve slid right inline as her friend and co-parent that enables her Aís, validates her poor choices, and provides emotional support when she wants it. This clouded my ability to see what was really going on. I now accept reality for what it is. I am not Plan B, C, D, E or even F for that matter. She has a half dozen guys that she is juggling right now. I think of the Stockdale Paradox, unwavering faith that I will prevail, with or without her, but be brutally honest about the reality of the situation.

I plan to remove myself from the equation. I donít want to be her friend. No true friend lies, cheats, disrespects, and gaslights you at every turn. I donít want her around me. The horse needs to go. She can contact me if there is an emergency with the kids.
Posted By: MrBrside

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/16/19 02:16 PM

Originally Posted by curtis7

She has a half dozen guys that she is juggling right now.


I wouldn't even give this a second thought - 1 or 21.. Not your problem any longer.. Switch off from it and think Kids / enjoy life..

Originally Posted by curtis7

I plan to remove myself from the equation. I donít want to be her friend. No true friend lies, cheats, disrespects, and gaslights you at every turn. I donít want her around me. The horse needs to go. She can contact me if there is an emergency with the kids.


Good plan - stick to it and stick to your guns.. It does get easier... Get rid of that horse lol smile
Posted By: Destroyd

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/16/19 05:41 PM

Turn the horse into glue!
Posted By: IHCLACS

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/16/19 07:02 PM

Originally Posted by Destroyd
Turn the horse into glue!


I heard that Wilbur and Mr. Ed are looking for a companion to mate with...lol.. What's the horse's name anyway? Floosey? Sorry I couldn't resist....
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/16/19 07:48 PM

Originally Posted by curtis7
There is more that Iíll share another time
Here is the more from last night. W came over to ride her horse. S8 started asking me questions if we were going to have to move and when he was going to stay at moms again. He must be getting more keen on picking up on vibes that W and I are giving off through this process. I need to be more diligent about keeping a PMA around the kids so they feel safe. I told him I donít know what is going to happen in the future, but right now there are no plans for us to leave this house.

W also told me on Sunday that she was doing better mentally and she thinks she will be ready to take the kids back in about a week, so full custody was short-lived. I now have a pretty good idea why she didnít want the kids around for awhile. Thatís another story, but letís just say it seems she made a poor choice in partners.

I shared the living arrangement plan with S8. In the past, almost daily, I would reassure both kids that I love their mother, how important she is to me, and that she needs time to figure things out. This time, as detachment continues to improve, I told S8 that he and D4 were the most important people in my life. He noticed the change in my wording by leaving W out and it upset him.

S8 went outside to say goodnight and goodbye to W. D4 also went outside, then she came in and said mom wanted to talk with me.

I went out and W asked me why S8 was crying and if I told him we might have to move. I said no and explained what I said which he must have interpreted differently. W agreed that S8 can be manipulative and has been known to exaggerate to get what he wants. W wanted me to stay and talk about co-parenting and other things the kids might have said. I told her I didnít think it was appropriate to share and that I wasnít prepared to have that conversation with her. She continued to press and said she had a right to know.

I stood there and thought about it for awhile, then refused to disclose any of things they have told me confidence. I told W that Iíve shielded her from several things theyíve said, she kept digging and again said she had a right to know. I just said the kids sense things and I try to reassure them but canít make any promises or tell them everything is going to be ok from now on. I told her that it goes against my beliefs to violate their trust or lie to them.

She said I could do a better job of massaging the truth with them so they feel safe. I told her I do what I can to let them know that she loves them. She asked if this arrangement is no longer working and I told her Iím not sure and would have to think about it.

She seemed surprised that this all came about a few days after them being away from her. She said she is a bad person and a narcissistic bitch. She said she is tired of people telling her sheís not. She didnít get any sympathy from me. I told her that Iíve noticed she is a different person since this all started and this is not the person that I knew for so long. She said maybe this is who she truly is. I said you might be right. Didnít try to convince her otherwise. She said sheís confused and doesnít know what she wants.

She refused to share why she wanted me to take the kids. She said she had an epiphany much like I did when she gave me the BD letter. She brought up the time I came over in early May to confront her. She remembers me saying that I donít want to live in an open marriage and she said she didnít either, which I now understand means she doesnít want to be married to me, so that she no longer needs to live in an open marriage if there is no marriage.

W said sheís dealing with a lot of problems right now. I asked if she was seeing someone about that or getting help from an IC. She said no and that her free sessions ran out. I offered her my company sessions and she said she would think about it and would probably go back to the same MC we saw in January that was pro-D...great.

She said weíve only been separated for just over 3 months and thatís not a long time. She said between her projects, work, the kids, and everything else that she hasnít had time to figure things out. She kept using superlatives like always, never, everything about our past. Still dwelling on the negatives. She felt like nothing at our house was hers and that everything was given to her. I told her that I acknowledge that we would have none of this if it wasnít for the two of us working together to obtain it for so long. I told her it took a lot of courage to leave and could see that she likes the independence and knowledge that everything she has over there is hers alone. She said she recently thought how much easier it would be to come back for the materialistic things but she doesnít know that she wants that anymore.

I asked her if there was anything else she wanted to share right now (pretty sure she knew I was implying coming clean about the OM). She thought long and hard about it silently for about a minute with her eyes twitching back and forth. I was just looking at her in disbelief and knew the answer that was coming. Then she finally said no and that she was going to leave. I said ok, turned around and walked in the house.

She honestly believes that I donít know what sheís done with these multiple OM. She thinks all I know is that she texts them. I had no desire to keep that lying, deceitful woman in my presence any longer. She can go find her green grass. I just wish I didnít have to lose out on half my kids life because of her selfishness. I remained calm and fairly confident throughout, thought through my words carefully, tried to maintain my composure and validated her feelings occasionally. I spoke about my feelings a couple times and tried not to make it accusatory towards her or her character.

Iím disappointed that I allowed this talk move from the kids/parenting to her to a bit of relationship issues. Fortunately, I mostly listened and avoided escalation or saying too much. She was visibly shaken and near tearing up when she realized the kids are feeling the impacts of her choices and also when she talked about not being able to figure out what she wants.

I feel somewhat at peace with everything, the betrayal numbs the pain. Her choices have taken so much of my love and respect away from her. She can go be happy with OM and divorced BFF, I want something better and more honest and moral for myself and my kids.
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/17/19 04:15 AM

Originally Posted by curtis7
Letís call that post part 1, part 2 will include scripts for the possible confrontation that gives her the choice.

OK, here is where part 2 begins. I have compiled scripts and excerpts from my research on 100's of sitches. The posts that follow will be broken up into several parts by groups of members due to the length. DBers may benefit from these consolidated scripts at some point in the future. Hopefully, others find this to be a helpful resource.

For me personally, I'm still working on my script and will share to receive community feedback soon.
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/17/19 04:17 AM

Starsky309
ďI know all about you and _______, and it needs to stop. It's incredibly disrespectful to me, to our marriage and to our family.Ē

Starsky309
Whenever my wife would say "I don't know if my feelings for you will ever return," I would say ďI understand that and I'm willing to be very patient in that regard -- it could take many, many months. But whether or not you're willing to do this short list of things that I say I need at this point, to me, isn't about feelings. It's a DECISION that you need to make, if you want to remain married to me."

PuppyDogTails
"I realize that I had my own issues that I need to work on" or -- my personal favorite -- "End your affair and come back to the marriage, and I think you will find me more than willing to work on any and all issues, including my own."

PuppyDogTails
...What helped me was to script out my 2nd, longer, "The Deceit's Gotta Stop" confrontation with my wife. Practiced it, over and over, even out loud, in my office. Rehearsed my body language, and my inflection, and my eye contact. Probably two dozen times. It left me VERY prepared, and pretty calm. A 1/2-pill of my anti-anxiety meds took care of the other half nicely. Another technique I use when nervous is to remind myself of all the ways that the OTHER person ought to really be the nervous one! And that's certainly true in your case. YOU are fighting the noble fight, and your wife is lying and fleeing and generally acting of poor character! Who said this had to be a 15-second script? I'd suggest about a 3-minute one, give or take...

Stop. We both know you're lying. If that's all you have then I have more important things to attend to. Please excuse me...
Get up to leave...

Puppies classic: I have decided I will no longer lie to cover up your infidelity and destructive behavior. When you say one thing and do other I have no choice but to protect this family by verifying your claims... Which did indeed turn out as suspected - LIES. Our marriage has problems outside of your infidelity. Your choice of response to those problems is to make them WORSE by introducing an interloper to cause a great deal of stress and damage to your reputation, my commitment, and your daughter's well being. Marital problems need to be met with solutions - not lies and cheating. Your choice - continue cheating and make things worse, or end the cheating and make things better. The ball's in your court there. Continue cheating and hurting your own children OR make a commitment to solve the problem constructively.

I now know that our marriage wasn't satisfactory for you or me. I completely accept my half of the responsibility for that and am sorry for the hurt it caused you. The other half, and your subsequent affair to aggravate those problems is all on you. OR I am willing to take ownership of my HALF of our marital problems UP TO the affair. The other 50% of the marital problem and this hurtful affair is ALL YOURS.

You have a choice to help your family, or destroy it. What you are doing to this family is selfish and irresponsible. But if this is your decision, then you will own the consequences and myself and our daughter will be as far from it as we can get and we won't be looking back. I have things to do that are a lot more important than listening to your excuses.

PuppyDogTails
She squirmed and b*tched and moaned and screamed bloody murder at first, that I refused to sit down and talk to her. Eventually, over the course of a few weeks, as she saw that I was NOT going to be either bullied nor sweet-talked (and she tried both approaches) into sitting down and having an R talk with her, she eventually stopped trying. I confronted my wife within 24 hours of having proof she was having an affair. I exposed her affair within 24 hours to our adult daughters, and within two weeks to her family and her employer. I re-confronted her on Day 60, and laid out a "No More Deceit" boundary, telling her "either you tell our daughters and your parents the truth about your relationship with (OM), or I will." I had evidence, and I told her she had five minutes to decide. Within two hours, she had told all four of them the truth -- that she wasn't "just friends" with OM, and that Puppy hadn't been lying when I told them she was having an affair. About a week later (around Day 70), I filed for divorce, after my wife stubbornly refused to end her affair. On Day 90, she ended her affair, and asked "what will it take?" to reconcile. I laid out my short-list of non-negotiable boundaries, and we reconciled. There were several fits-and-starts after that, with the divorce initially being put on two 3-month "stays" before finally being withdrawn. We also separated for a couple of weeks about a year ago, and agreed to date other people, but that was short-lived, and after one "date" (drinks with a former co-worker) I agreed to move back in with her to work on our marriage. We did some MCing, still struggle with the SSM thing, but have remained great friends and partners ever since, and celebrated both our 25th wedding anniversary and the birth of our first granddaughter this Spring. Interestingly, when my wife tearfully asked for reconciliation (and thereafter), she told me that although she HATED me at the time, and was LIVID with me for exposing her affair, she understood why I did it, RESPECTED me for it, and THANKED ME for fighting for our marriage!

PuppyDogTails
Best to just say "I know all about you and ________, so please don't disrespect me or our family any further by continuing to lie about it." If he does (lie), then put your hand up in the "STOP" position and -- looking him straight in the eye -- say "Stop it. We both know you're lying to me right now, and it's incredibly disrespectful not only to me and to our marriage, but to our family. We always taught our kids the importance of honesty; I've decided that WHATEVER happens with us, I am going to insist on that in our family moving forward."And then if he persists in the lie (ex.: "we're just friends"), turn and leave the room.
I had to do this with my wife. From my personal archives:
Boundaries/ĒStart with the DECEITĒ
I would start with the DECEIT.
Once it became apparent in my sitch that my wife wasn't going to end her affair, despite confrontation, exposure to her parents, siblings, our adult children and her employer, I decided that I couldn't stop her. But I was DAMNED sure going to stop tolerating the DECEIT. She was lying to her own parents (whom I love and respect, very much, and who have been like PARENTS to me throughout our marriage), and to our adult daughters.
So my BIG boundary was this:
"I will no longer tolerate your deceit. I will no longer stand idly by while you have an affair with a boy half your age, and then not only LIE to your parents and our children about it, but you make wild accusations about ME, that I'm 'crazy' and paranoid. Well, that's over. You either tell them the truth, or I will, and I will show them the evidence that I have. You have exactly five minutes to decide." And I was dead serious.
btw, my smaller boundaries were:
-- no calling or texting OM from inside of our marital home;
-- no calling or texting OM in front of our kids, regardless of where you are;
-- I will no longer allow our family's finances to be spend enabling your affair; you will have to get your own cellphone, and pay for your tummy tuck Visa payments, lingerie, hair-coloring and what-not.
-- If you plan on coming home after 1am, don't bother coming home.
In your case, since you're living apart, I would start with the DECEIT boundary. It's incredibly disrespectful, and there's no reason why you have to stand there and be lied to, continually.

PuppyDogTails
On ďhaving a plan,Ē and ďThe Schmuck FactorĒ:
I think you let her know that you are here for her when she is ready to do the work necessary. She clearly isn't ready to do that right now.
It would convey weakness if you were to be supplicating towards her while she was still actively cheating on you, and disrespecting her boundaries. Letting her know that you are willing to suck it up, forgive, love unconditionally and do the hard work of reconciliation -- when she is ready -- does NOT convey weakness, it conveys character and strength.
Many, many people confuse "unconditional love" with "doormat-without-boundaries." It is entirely possible -- and NECESSARY -- to demonstrate unconditional love and forgiveness, within a framework of healthy boundaries.
Do you not love a child unconditionally, while at the same time not allowing them to use obscenity when speaking to you? Do you not love a spouse, while simultaneously not allowing them to berate you in front of another couple?
Those are just two silly examples, but I think this is where you're getting hung up. Us men have a REALLLLL hard time with the whole "schmuck factor" thing, and it really rears its head when there is infidelity involved. We don't like to be made a fool. But if your "standing" for your marriage is PART OF A PLAN -- YOUR plan -- then who's the schmuck here? You take a position of "Yes, I am, at the moment, deciding to stand for my marriage, even though my wife is having an affair and is refusing to admit it and work at the marriage, but I have made this choice to do this FOR A PERIOD OF TIME, and I will hold out as long as I can, all the while trying to lay out and enforce healthy boundaries for me and my children. My wife is an adult, I cannot control her, and I'm praying that she comes to her senses soon, before my love for her fully runs out, but I can hold on for "x" months and I will do so, to the best of my ability. This is MY decision, this is MY stand, and I am doing it with boundaries, legal/financial protections for me and my kids, and for a finite period (uncommunicated to spouse -- just tell her "I won't wait forever") of time."
My wife asked me both during -- and after -- her affair, why I was fighting for her. Why I hadn't kicked her out immediately. I told her:
- because I took a wedding vow, before God, and I took that very seriously. It was not "for better or for better yet," it was "for better or for WORSE";
- because I loved her, and we had a lot of shared history together;
- because I didn't want to demonstrate to our four children that when things get tough, you cut and run. You make a stand and fight for what is important to you, for as long as you can, to the best of your ability;
- because if the situation were reversed, and I had say a gambling or alcohol addiction, I would hope that she would do the same and fight for ME;
- and because I didn't want to go to my death bed with REGRETS, that I should have tried harder. If I was going to err, I was going to err on the side of trying to save my marriage and keep my family intact.
When you lay out (and maybe even write down), what YOUR OWN reasons are, and give yourself an internal deadline (6 months, one year, whatever) . . . then I think, as a man, we can feel like WE are executing a plan, and that we're not being a "schmuck."

PuppyDogTails
ďI should be clear with you about something. I have absolutely no intention of remaining 'best friends' with you if you choose to end our marriage this way -- by having an affair, running away, and lying to your parents and our children about it. We'll be civil, and we'll co-parent effectively, I'm sure, but we won't be friends. If you decide to end your affair now, however, and come back and work on this with me, going to marriage counseling, each of us addressing our issues, and it doesn't work out -- say after a year -- and we choose to divorce, then yes, I could see a time where eventually we could become good friends again, even though it won't be the same. But not what you're doing now, I'm sorry. This is NOT how friends treat each other, and I respect myself too much to put up with a so-called 'friend' who would do that to me."

PuppyDogTails
ďWife, you say you want space, and a formal separation agreement. And I know you have some legitimate complaints about my role in the dysfunction in our marriage. I acknowledge that, and as you know i am working on my issues, and I hope that in time you will learn to trust that my changes are for real.Ē
ďI am willing to go to marriage counseling with you to try to save our marriage. I think we may both regret it someday if we don't do everything we can to try. But I'm not a fool, and I need to be clear with you. I cannot respect your decision to cut-and-run like this, and I damned sure can't respect your decision to involve a 3rd person in our marriage. (at this point she will try to stop you, and lie to you). Put your hand up in the "stop" position, and say "Please stop --we both know you're lying to me right now, so let me finish.
ďYou need to know that I will not share you with another man, and I will not be your friend if you choose to end our marriage this way. Whatever is going on with this guy, it needs to stop, but I realize that I cannot control you and I have no desire to. Just know that I will not be agreeable to a separation until such time that you've REALLY worked on our marriage with me, without the involvement of a third person. If you refuse to end that, then I will have no choice but to protect myself as much as I possibly can. I do love you, but I won't be made a fool."
And then I'd walk away.
If she tries to deny OM, say "Please stop lying to me. It's incredibly disrespectful to me and to our marriage. When you're ready to speak to me honestly, we can continue the conversation. As for the legal stuff, I think that would be best if we left that to our attorneys."
That's what I would do. And then I would spend the next two weeks finding out everything I could about OM. Who he is, what he does, is he married, what it is he does that attracted my wife.
I would combine a hard legal stance and hardline confrontation/exposure, with loving detachment, GAL, 180s and working on my own issues.
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/17/19 04:18 AM

Squiggy
"This is new territory for me. I believe that I am giving you the space you asked for. As for open communication, I am ready to listen if you would like to talk."

Zues126
Myself, I wouldn't remain with someone that had cheated and not recommitted. I would distance myself and then explain to her that as much as I wanted the M to work she had opted out of the M and that 'not sure' was as far from a commitment as 'I want a divorce', and that I deserved a committed partner that was willing to fight for the M and to regain my trust. Since she can't provide that I am going to be taking steps towards physical separation and will be filing for divorce. This wouldn't be a bluff, I wouldn't be willing to live with that. If she changes her tune I'd listen to what she had to say, but if she blames me for ruining any chances I'd keep walking all the way to the court because that is f'd up.

Ctflor
"I will not have this. You cannot communicate with her and be with me, period. You cannot see her, cannot work with her, all of it must be cut off or that is it".

Wonka
I am going to reiterate this only once more so that my boundary is abundantly clear to you. It is inappropriate and disrespectful for a spouse to bring a third party into the M. It does not work for me to live in an open marriage. I make no apologies for attempting to protect our marriage from an interloper. If and when you decide to end things with the OM, I'd be ready and willing to work with you on rebuilding the marriage. Until then, I will be cordial with you on logistics regarding our children.

TxHubby
What turned the tide for us was first, exposure, and then I finally said I've had enough of this. You're not sure about me after 26 years of love, caring, loyalty, etc.? Well fine, I'm done. I'm moving on with my life. I don't care what you do, I'm not pursuing you any more. Have a nice life. Whatever was left of her MLC disappeared in a microsecond and all of the sudden this woman that wasn't sure about me couldn't bear to lose me and she knows she screwed up and she only wanted me, blah blah blah.

TxHubby
No problem. I've found that a lot of us need tough love in these situations. The "I can't decide" sh!t that comes out of cheaters mouths really pisses me off. We are all people of worth. You can't decide about me after 26 years of loyal, loving, caring marriage together? Well then screw you. I'll decide for you. I'm moving on with my life. I want you but I don't need you. I'll be fine and I'll meet someone great who treats me like I deserve. I took that approach and it instantly killed her MLC. Their AP's are never the better choice. Their AP's are the kind of people who get involved with married people so you're a way better person than they are right from the start. Honestly, once I removed myself as one of her choices, and even started talking to other women, that did the trick. We're still married and I love her deeply but she's now fully aware that I want her but don't need her.

TxHubby
She wants to live a fantasy. Real life isn't near as glamorous and is full of challenges. Hopefully she wises up and realizes fantasies are just that and real life is whatever you make of it. I hope she realizes that before she ruins the best thing in her life.

TxHubby
No. I took the wrong approach and went passive, so many here are doing. That was failing miserably. OMW found out and had the guts to explode the whole thing. That did the trick. Truth be told she had no interest at all in saving her marriage but it did cause her own wayward spouse to go NC with his AP's and beg and plead for her to take him back. That's the desired result for any betrayed spouse. Now I swear by exposure. I didn't have the guts or wisdom at the time to do it myself but if I ever found myself in a position like that again you better believe I'd expose to the world. Not in a mean way but in a we're having this crisis in our marriage and I need all your help in helping us get past it and heal from it as a couple. Affairs are absolutely dependent on keeping them a secret. Once they're exposed they can't survive. That is when the fog dissipates and you can work on fixing the marriage. It is not guaranteed, nothing is, but it's your best chance.

Mowgli
I realized that I had been living my life passively and letting the winds take me where they wanted. I realized that I had been letting people pull me in 20 different directions and that I had not only lost control of my own life, but that I was actually afraid of taking that control back. Once I realized what I wanted and needed for myself and from those around me, that fog lifted and it was then that I knew I was going to be ok no matter the outcome. I believe that the confidence I found within myself and the changes I had been making the 3 months prior to exposing the A led me to the outcome I experienced. I was ready and prepared for W to up and leave. I had emotionally prepared myself for that through detachment. I still held on to the hope that things might change for us and the path might turn back towards the M, but that wasn't my priority. I understood that my W had to be faced with a real sense of loss before any of that could happen, but I didn't know where that was going to come from. Ultimately, it came from me exposing the A to her, telling her that I would be talking to a Lawyer the next day, but that currently I was content with the living arrangement we currently had (her living downstairs).

Rockedworld
"I know the truth now about you and OW. I want you to know that I am devestated, but that I also love you and I am going to fight for this M. I am willing to forgive you and work through a healing and re-building process, but only if OW is out of your life completely in every way." I was very calm. I was very firm. I was very sure.

Rockedworld
In the days after confronting my H, I focused on communicating to him that I do not want a D, that I am willing to work on our issues, my own and help him with his but only if there is NC with OW. I "kept the road paved" back to the M if that is what he chose, but with the clear boundaries in place. I then backed off, took care of myself and the kids. I let the R with OW self-destruct. Which it did. When OW found out I knew everything, she thought that was her chance to push hard to get H to move out and move in with her. She showed her true colors in not caring about impact on me and kids. This was a huge wake up for H. I made myself "the better option".
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/17/19 04:19 AM

R2C
When you are involved with another woman while still married to me, I feel disrespected. I want all contact to stop. If you continue to contact her or lie to me I will consider all my options, including D.

Sandi2
What is the purpose of confronting her when you already know the truth? Well, I suggest it should not be to "ask" her anything! You look at her face to face (or you can stand up while addressing her) and tell her you know the truth about her affair. You do NOT reveal how much you know, nor reveal your source. If she starts asking, or arguing, or denying........hold your hand up and say, "Stop". Then you state your boundaries. For example, "I will not live in an open M. If contact with the OM does not immediately cease, I will prepare to take steps for separation/divorce". If you are too afraid to say something that strongly, then you could say, "I will not stay in a M where I am disrespected". But let me warn you, whatever you say.......you must be ready to fully enforce your words with action. She will test your words, so back them with action........not more words.

Steady9
People make their own choices, I do not own you, you are free to make your own choices, and I am letting you go now.... It was my tone or facial expression or something that caused her to "believe" me. I did not yell etc.. (I am a novice compared to others here, so just sharing what I did )

CD Bear
"Then all I have to say is this. I will not live in an open marriage. I will not hide your lies or affair. They are disrespectful. I will send you info on a few mediators I have looked into. XXX is the best choice. I will set an appointment for as early in August as possible to draw up our Separation Agreement. I should have all my banking and documentation gathered by then. You should, too. Divorce is my last option. It is clear that it is your first and easiest. What you are doing to this family is irresponsible. But if this is your decision, then you will own it. Perhaps one day we can be friends. I have to go out. See you later."

Coach
Wishing isn't a plan. ďHere is what I need in my marriage___________, ___________, _____________, and________________. If you can't respect that then I have decided that I can't be married to you." The blanks are the non-negotiable issues. "I won't share you with another man."Joint decisions on how we spend our money." You then need ways to verify these issues. Transparency: access to each others e-mail, FB, cell phone etc. Weekly discussions about your finances. Find solutions that work for you two. You steer clear of the emotions by thinking thru the issues. Calm, cool and collected. Lead on brother.

Coach
Yep agree with her. "This marriage isn't working for me either. Us in the same house isn't working for me. I don't feel it either. I have been wrong trying to get you to love me, that was selfish of me. I want you to be happy, I want myself to be happy and I want the girls to see and feel love in their home. That's why I have decided_____________________. ď
You wife needs to feel you walking away not a fallback and comfortable position. if you can't do it in the same house then make sure you have everything checked off legally, financially, with the girls and you are squared away emotionally. Separation isn't the end.
It's not controlling to say to someone your behavior is causing problems and if it doesn't change it will effect our relationship. I am not trying to change them, it's their choice how they behave.
I want you but I don't need you. I'll be fine and I'll meet someone great who treats me like I deserve.

Coach
Boundaries make people feel safe. A plan followed up with action make people have confidence. Standing by doing nothing except waiting for someone else to make a decision causes unrest and fear. Lead.

Greek
to W: "While I understand and share your concerns, I have decided that time will not build a stronger partnership for us - only committing to make the necessary changes will do that. You are clearly unwilling to do that so I have decided to move forward with making a life apart from you." You could tell her in person, but don't linger. You have to be somewhere so you can't stay. Say it and go. Don't take calls, don't answer texts unless there is a question about kids or money. Do you have L? If not, get one. Start driving this bus. She doesn't think you will. She may be thinking that she has more Time. Absent a deadline, she may never know what she wants. Give her today as the drop dead date. Best case scenario - she moves in your direction. Worst case - well, what could be worse than where you are now?

Pinhead
ďI've been thinking a lot lately, and I don't think what we're setting up will work for me. I now realize that I don't want to live with someone that really doesn't want to be with me. It just isn't what I want in life. So, I have decided that we should separate and work towards divorce. I think you should find another place to live as soon as possible, a little after you return from the Couples weekend. We should also tell the girls when you return. Having this linger til the Spring will do neither of us any good, nor the girls. We can work on the finances when you return, as well as figuring out what to do about the house and joint custody. I'm sorry it didn't work out between us, but I have really heard what you've said and realized that maybe this is for the best for everyone. I don't think it's productive to go to see our C in joint counseling since there's no desire on your part to reconcile. I wish that were different, and part of me will always hold on to a small piece of hope, but that's no way to live."

JinBK
Talking about histories in front of each other seems to make us argue. I'd like to do that more in our individual sessions. This week, I would like to talk about our goals and the immediate problems that we are facing. I want this to be clear: my goal for counseling is to save the marriage. I love your family and our life together. Your family is torn apart by these lies and our conflict. This is what infidelity does to peopleís lives. It rips them to pieces and puts everyone through unbelievable amount of stress. The most immediate obstacle to us working as a couple is OW. She is and has been acting as a counter-productive interloper in our marriage. I am unable to move forward and discuss any other problems within our marriage until this matter is settled. No one believes for a second that you are not having an affair. I have written down a list of all the lies, the evidence that I confronted you with, and why people do not believe you. You have spent too much time alone in secret, too many messages logged and documented, and too many screw-ups at work for anyone to think this is anything other than infidelity run rampant. I am not going to argue about your involvement with her. You are too fearful to own your mistakes right now and in part I can understand your hesitancy. But make no mistake: no one believes she is "just your friend". No one. Your lies are destroying everything around you. Your career is at risk because of her distractions. Now your marriage is falling apart as well because you went to her instead of here in this office in the first place. I am offering you a chance to come clean and admit to the affair. Once you own your affair the exposure will stop. I will not go to S or anyone else in your work world to expose this ugly mistake. You will, however be honest with your family about the lies and the cheating and you will tell them with me present. If you refuse I will have to take this further into the University and your entire career is then at risk. Infidelity with your students is a serious violation of policy. Infidelity puts projects at risk; you have proven this very much to be the case. In order to feel safe communicating with you, I need you to cease all contact with OW. After today, we have our individual sessions, then come back together. If you are honest and if you cease contact with OW, we can move forward. There is no way to heal with her in the picture. I need you to tell her it is over. I need you to end it in front of me and mean it. I need you to remove her presence from your home, in particular your computer. I need you to share your text messages if I ask. I need you to allow me access to your email accounts. I will be doing likewise. I have absolutely nothing to hide. It's your turn.

Chatterbug
And yes I would tell him. I would say your daughter is having an affair. I am trying to protect my family. I ask that you support our marriage. Support your daughter but do not support ADULTRY. I wish to remain friends for you have become a father to me. Support our marriage. And then leave it at that. Speak from the heart.

GH31
I did the same thing with my own wife and completely agree with you. I meant it when I said I wanted nothing more to do with her and it did scare the crap out of her. In fact, she had run off to OM's house in England and I left her there, flew back to Australia and stopped all communication. 25 days later she (grudgingly) came back.

FightingFit
What worked on me was him telling me outright it was over and he never wanted to see or speak to me ever again as long as the affair continued. I got VERY AFRAID - remember we had kids together and he was basically saying, I will not SEE you or SPEAK to you even in relation to the kids - I will go thru someone else to get to you; I wont TOLERATE you.

TimeHeals
To me, based on my own personal experience and the experiences of a few others, there are two equally fatal mistakes that people can make when their marriage is in a serious crisis (as in basically over):
1. Adopt a fatalistic approach and say, "This is done, and it will never change, and everything happens for a reason, and this is so over and broken it can never be repaired no matter what".
2. Adopt a "bo peep" attitude of denial: "They really love me, but they are lost in a fog, and that's why they are divorcing me and screwing other people, but someday the fog will lift", and unfortunately, when you tell people there may be hope and that the future isn't written yet, they are likely to hear it as "just go into denial, and everything will be OK. After all, an alien took over my spouse, and now they are lost in a fog", but all I have to do is wait and act as if everything will be OK, and it will be.
For me, and this is personal, there was no real detaching really happening until I acknowledged the reality that my wife just didn't love me, and then I stopped waiting for something to change, stopped trying to manipulate the outcome of any of our rare interactions.

That's when it hit me that I am going to be OK, and her problems weren't my problems, and that's when I was able to let go so that it was up to her what to do, and you know what?
She decided to win me over. Who'd a thunk it, eh?

The grass is not always greener. Let me tell you that a stable home environment with a great man is way more important than any kind of great sex life!! Married life changes and the once butterflies in the stomach days are over. But you move to different phases. One of communication, commitment and unconditional love. If you have a wonderful man who loves you and your children you better hold on tight
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/17/19 04:20 AM

RobX
"Maybe you should sit down, we need to talk about something...."

RobXís approach:
Sit her down and have a discussion with her.
No need to be mad, angry, a$$hole, prick on anything,
keep it calm, light but straight forward, direct to the point, etc. Don't make it last more than a few minutes. You tell her trust is based on actions that are consistent. You don't trust her because she hasn't been consistent. You don't trust her because she's been lying to you, in fact you tell her that is what you trust her to continue doing, because she has been lying to your consistently - that's what you can trust. For you to be able to trust her, she has to build trust.
Sure you can trust her blindly and have faith and all that good stuff but honestly how well has that worked up to this point? Don't ask for for full disclosure. Do the opposite. Tell her this:
ď... I don't want your cell phone records, I don't want to look at your cell phone text msg's and call history, I don't want your email or fb password, I don't want your voicemail pw. If I have to monitor you 24/7 to force you to be consistent, that won't work for me because that's not what I want or need. I wanted you to be trustworthy but I don't need you to be anything, truth be told, I'll be just fine without you, I see that now. From now on I'm moving in this direction, if you want to come along, go ahead, I won't control you and tell you that can or can't come but I can't wait for you anymore and you already know that if you're with the OM, you aren't with me, I'm not settling for anything less than that. If you really want to be with the OM, I really can't say or do anything to stop that and you should be with him if you're willing to lie so much to me, if you can't be true to me that means he's more important to you than I am and you know what... I'm ok with that because I'm more important to me and that's all that matters - I see that now. If you wanted to be with me, you knew that you had alot of trust to rebuild and that's only through consistent action and I'm through with pressuring you to be my wife, I don't want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with me and that's pretty much what it looks like to me so let's stop playing games: you go and be with the OM, I'm ok with that, in fact I'm better than OK, I'm awesome because I'm finally being honest with myself about all of this and that includes being honest about who you are and where you are right now. I know what I'm worth and I've been settling for less for too long. I can't wait for you anymore, I've spent enough time waiting for you to do the right thing and I know that doesn't work because I would probably have to wait forever and still not get what I wanted. So you can do what you want, be with the OM, I hope he makes you happy and I'm going to start wanting something better for me."

RobX
Also we will tell the kids that we are getting a divorce, and YOU not I will tell them that you are involved with another man because I will not be the bad guy in this situation, you will take responsibility for your actions and I have no issues about you feeling guilty, that is your cross to bear with them, not mine. I will be civil during this process but that is my decision, I can't go back to doing what I've been doing all this time, I can't believe I've been so stupid and foolish to allow this to continue for as long as it has. We will talk to the kids today after school."

You want to be with someone who chooses to be with you.
You don't want to be with someone who chooses to play games with you & your heart.
You want someone who would want to be committed to you by their own choice, not because they are forced to be with you.

"I get it, you haven't wanted to be in this relationship for a long time, that's why you checked out so long ago, that's why you felt it necessary to pursue another man, I get it, I really understand this now. We both did things to contribute to this mess. I just know that now I feel the same way, I finally get it and maybe you should be with the OM because I haven't been getting what I wanted from you in a very long time and I never admitted it to myself and maybe I need to admit to myself that I want to find someone new & exciting to be with, someone who is honest, shares my same values, etc. I hope you and the OM will be happy together because I don't think you really want to be with me anymore and honestly I'm thinking maybe I don't really want to be with you anymore either. My focus right now is to be a great father to my kids and maybe look to start something new with someone new."

I'll be just fine without you, I see that now.
From now on I'm moving in this direction, if you want to come along, go ahead, I won't control you and tell you that can or can't come but I can't wait for you anymore and you already know that if you're with the OM, you aren't with me, I'm not settling for anything less than that.
If you really want to be with the OM, I really can't say or do anything to stop that and you should be with him if you're willing to lie so much to me, if you can't be true to me that means he's more important to you than I am and you know what... I'm ok with that because I'm more important to me and that's all that matters - I see that now.
If you wanted to be with me, you knew that you had alot of trust to rebuild and that's only through consistent action and I'm through with pressuring you to be my wife, I don't want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with me and that's pretty much what it looks like to me so let's stop playing games: you go and be with the OM, I'm ok with that, in fact I'm better than OK, I'm awesome because I'm finally being honest with myself about all of this and that includes being honest about who you are and where you are right now. I know what I'm worth and I've been settling for less for too long.
I can't wait for you anymore, I've spent enough time waiting for you to do the right thing and I know that doesn't work because I would probably have to wait forever and still not get what I wanted. So you can do what you want, be with the OM, I hope he makes you happy and I'm going to start wanting something better for me."

Slow is fast, Fast is slow - tattoo this to your foreheads if you can't remember it.

I can't count how many situations I've read in these various forum posts where the LBS is making real progress, their WAS is warming up to them again, calling them, interacting, communicating, smiling, spending more time, doing things together, emailing, texting, etc. And after 1 or 2 days/weeks, the LBS figures it's time to press the WAS for marriage counselling or talking about the relationship and reconciliation. It took a few years to damage your relationship but you figure after a few weeks of peaceful interactions with your WAS that it's time to force them to make a decision about reconciling with you. You are all very "unique" in this respect. You all do this or will do this in your own "unique" ways.

Here's a novel idea.... the WAS that left you because they didn't want to be with you is suddenly spending more time with you, suddenly communicating with you more often, doing things with you, smiling with you, is comfortable with you. Keep doing what you're doing! Don't bring up relationship talk, talks of reconciling, enjoy the moment! Stop worrying about the future, you don't know what tomorrow will bring so stop worry about tomorrow, enjoy today if today is the day your WAS wants to talk with you and share a drink or a meal with you or wants to do something with you & the kids. Be humble and appreciate the time you have with them, don't hasten the process and demand that things have to change and that you need to reconcile at this moment. Consider this a form of dating even if it isn't officially labeled as such. Stop forcing your spouses to have to be with you. If you have to force someone to love you and be with you, do you really want to be with those people? If those same WAS's make moves towards you, to communicate, to spend time with you & your children, to come over, to share a meal, etc. Enjoy that time you have with them, celebrate a success internally with yourself that you were able to accomplish something of such a grand nature when this WAS originally left you and never wanted to interact with you anymore. Stop asking for more, start appreciating what you have and stop believing that you deserve more than what you have - truth be told no one deserves anything, you get what you get in life because you placed yourself on that path to get the results you received. Stop believing you are entitled to something, entitlement breeds resentment and that will lead you down a path of anger & disappointment and poor results.

RobX
"Look, you decided to get a new place and you will have to be a big girl now and figure out how to handle the expense of living on your own. I didn't make you move out. I didn't decide for you to get a new place. You made all those decisions on your own without me and you assumed that you can just demand for me to finance your new life, and you need to know that I won't be doing that for you. Since you made all those decisions, you now have to figure out how to live on your own without my help since you offered the same option to me. FYI - from now on, I will take care of myself and my children when they're with me and you will have to learn to do the same at your end when you have them. You chose all of this, now deal with the consequences."

RobX
Fear.
Fear of Loss.
Crisis.
It's the only thing that gets most people to change.
That's human nature, you can hum and haw all you want about it but that's the fact, plain and simple.
You need to create fear of loss with her.
But not in an a$$hole type way either.
"Wife I've been thinking about our discussion yesterday,
I've decided that there is no way I can live for another year or two with you in this way, it's just not a healthy way to live. I can't live in the same house with my wife while she is actively pursuing an affair with another man, because now I don't want to be with you either, I've finally woken up to this idea. You should be with him, I want you to be with him. But I can't live with you anymore and since you started this process with the other man, you need to leave and a year or two won't cut it. You need to start looking for another place to live ASAP, I'll give you a month, maybe two at the most. I'll help you pack and move over as well. Also we will tell the kids that we are getting a divorce, and YOU not I will tell them that you are involved with another man because I will not be the bad guy in this situation, you will take responsibility for your actions and I have no issues about you feeling guilty, that is your cross to bear with them, not mine. I will be civil during this process but that is my decision, I can't go back to doing what I've been doing all this time, I can't believe I've been so stupid and foolish to allow this to continue for as long as it has. We will talk to the kids today after school."
And then walk away, leave her be and don't get into an argument, let her blab away until she is blue in the face, you remain silent, maintain eye contact during her spew and then walk away, go to work, go in another room, whatever it is you need to do.
Let her deal with the consequences of her actions,
there must be consequences for actions,
otherwise we risk letting people walk all over us and my friend, that is what you have enabled up to this point and it's time for you to change the situation if you want different results.

Robx
"... I don't want your cell phone records, I don't want to look at your cell phone text msg's and call history, I don't want your email or fb password, I don't want your voicemail pw. If I have to monitor you 24/7 to force you to be consistent, that won't work for me because that's not what I want or need.
I wanted you to be trustworthy but I don't need you to be anything, truth be told, I'll be just fine without you, I see that now.
From now on I'm moving in this direction, if you want to come along, go ahead, I won't control you and tell you that can or can't come but I can't wait for you anymore and you already know that if you're with the OM, you aren't with me, I'm not settling for anything less than that.
If you really want to be with the OM, I really can't say or do anything to stop that and you should be with him if you're willing to lie so much to me, if you can't be true to me that means he's more important to you than I am and you know what... I'm ok with that because I'm more important to me and that's all that matters - I see that now.
If you wanted to be with me, you knew that you had alot of trust to rebuild and that's only through consistent action and I'm through with pressuring you to be my wife, I don't want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with me and that's pretty much what it looks like to me so let's stop playing games: you go and be with the OM, I'm ok with that, in fact I'm better than OK, I'm awesome because I'm finally being honest with myself about all of this and that includes being honest about who you are and where you are right now. I know what I'm worth and I've been settling for less for too long.
I can't wait for you anymore, I've spent enough time waiting for you to do the right thing and I know that doesn't work because I would probably have to wait forever and still not get what I wanted. So you can do what you want, be with the OM, I hope he makes you happy and I'm going to start wanting something better for me."

Robx
"Look I'm not happy with the current situation, we don't spend enough time together, I have no connection with you anymore and I want it but I'm getting tired of waiting for it. If things don't change I'm going to leave you, I don't want to leave you and I don't want to break up our family but I can't live like this forever. Are you willing to work with me on this or should I just call it quits now?"

Robx
"I've decided that it's time to speak with the children, we're separating and getting a divorce, we need to let them know what to expect, that you'll be living in a different place, I'll be living here, that we still love them very much and we'll do our best to make this as easy on them as possible." Tell her to speak with her lawyer and start accelerating the process of the divorce, there is no use in putting off the inevitable and you aren't living like this anymore. If she is still in the master bedroom, have her sleep on the couch until she moves out, you will stay where you are in that bedroom. Tell her that she can have the OM, you're not the 2nd option backup plan anymore, you're going to start seeing other women and you're going to enjoy your new life without her because she isn't good enough for you anymore, you're done wasting your time, energy, effort & love on someone who isn't worth it because it's your decision to move on.
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/17/19 04:21 AM

AnotherStander
Tell her you know where she was (but don't disclose how you know, it doesn't matter and if you tell her she will just accuse you of snooping like you are the bad guy here). Tell her she's blown her last chance and you are done, you are not going to stay married to a lying cheater. Be ready for her to get angry, if she does then tell her there's nothing more to discuss and walk away. This may be one of the hardest things you've done but it will put you back in a position of power over your life.

The Couples Expert Podcast
There is no one else that is more important to me, my partner, the person Iíve made that commitment to, to spend my life with, to share a life...but I will not share you with another man. I will NOT live in an open marriage.

Lee Baucom
ďI will no longer live in an open marriage. I am asking you to break off all contact with other men.Ē

P_Jam
I love you too and I wish you happiness and I really hope you find what you're looking for. I need this time/space just as much as you and I will not be in an open relationship with you, nor will I be your plan B. I do not think we should co-mingle our lives and confuse the kids. I'm not sure if I've made this crystal clear in the past but... While you are out seeing other people trying to find "Mr- Right" I will NOT BE AN OPTION FOR YOU! I'm going to focus on moving on and working on me. If things change for you and you want to talk about a future then you can let me know. (I'm not 100% sure but I think she almost started to cry here and had to hold it back)

Bustorama
In my opinion, what ultimately really turned things around or brought things to a head, were my trying to move on after all of the above -- a hard core form of last resort technique I suppose (and it wasn't a technique, it really was where I was at). I told her I respected her decision not to work on our marriage, that I would have preferred to work things out, but that I understood that is not what she wanted, and I would move on with my life accordingly. No anger, no threats, no pleading, just I accept this is what you want, I agree with you, and I will live my life accordingly, I will be putting my things into order to file for divorce. Then I said that I would only contact her in the context of emergency issues concerning the kids and I would only respond to her for same (not punitively, just because that's what I felt I needed to move on). And I went full no contact and kept living my life. For several weeks of this, there was no contact at all from her.

Bustorama
"W, this separation situation isn't working for me anymore. I enjoy spending time with you when we are together, but I want more [commitment, love, time together, investment in our M, whatever] from my W than you are giving me. I'm not ok with going on like this anymore, so I will file for D. Can you please pass on your attorney's name to me? We can be good co-parents to our S together and maybe even friends after things settle down."

This separation situation isn't working for me anymore.
I am not ok with being in a M where we aren't [connecting, commmited to each other, loving, spending time together, investing in our M, whatever] or with being outside my family home. I am also not ok with sharing my W another M while she tests the waters. If you want to carry on with him, then it is time that you move out of the family home. I will help you pack your things if that is what you want."

I ultimately told her that I had had enough of the separation, and I accepted that she didn't want to be with me. I said I didn't want to be with her either since I wanted to be with someone who wanted to be with me. I told her I wanted NO CONTACT with her except for emergency stuff about kids to make it easier for me to move on. And I held to that (fairly well) for a few months. Then I told my W I was going to file for divorce, that it was time for me to move on legally.

Unknown
"Look wife/husband, I won't be in an open relationship with you, I won't give you X number of days, weeks, months to make your mind, if you really feel like you need to sit on the fence on this decision and can't decide between your affair partner and me well I will make the decision for you, you can be with them because I'm no longer an option. I love you and wish you a good life with them and hope it works out for you because it didn't work out for us. Now the best thing we can do for each other is to make this process as graceful and peaceful as possible for us and our children, I'll contact a lawyer/mediator and get started on the process of our legal separation/divorce."

Unknown
I realized it was just a piece of paper and if she really loved me and wanted things to work, she would be at home with me trying to make it work instead of banging other dudes.

Unknown
I have not been living in reality, but fantasy. Marriages are hard, relationships are hard. When we take the right approaches, we can have fulfilling loving relationship. When we accept the reality of our situations we can grow. Let go of the fantasies and begin the healing process and grow.

Unknown
I feel like I donít know you anymore. Your actions and treatment of me is so far departed from what I have to come to know that I no longer understand your ethical morals and values. I have always known you to be the kindest warm hearted person that goes out of her way for her family and those you love and care about. I feel like I am no longer in that circle of people in your life. I donít know if you are intentionally trying to hurt me or if itís just collateral damage because Iím still around you. I have been foolish to think that X years in a relationship actually meant something to you and that I was someone in your life that you wouldnít lie to and betray.

Unknown
Donít chase someone who doesnít want to be with you...especially a spouse!

The past is history, the future is a mystery, and the present is a gift.

Unknown
I want to be your husband, your best friend, your lover, the man you want to share your life with, the man you come to for support when things arenít going well, the man that you experience all of your greatest moments with. I want you, Iíve always wanted you. I have a great life, but itís better with you. You are the most important person in my life and I want to heal our marriage. I know you are reluctant, and I respect your feelings. Still, I need to move forward in life. If you donít share my desire to remain married and work on us, then I will be sad, but I will know itís time to move on.

Unknown
I have decided that this isnít working for me either. I have needs that arenít being met. I want to give and receive love. I prefer that be with you. Based on everything youíve shared over the past X months, I canít imagine how difficult it must have been for you to be married to me. If I could do it again, I would have done things differently. I see now that I need to move forward. I wish you the best and hope you find happiness for yourself.
Posted By: MrBrside

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/17/19 09:31 AM

Originally Posted by curtis7


I am completely over this. She has had a year since the first EA started, 8 months since the first PA that I could confirm, has been involved with at least a half dozen OM. Iím done. Iíve pushed aside my morals and values for far too long. Sheís had ample opportunity to end this behavior. It is now a dealbreaker for me. She can go be happy with OM and divorced BFF, I want something better and more honest and moral for myself and my kids.

Time to work on the final confrontation speech and get D paperwork prepared. Moving forward...



Curtis,

You have spent a lot of time and effort in summarizing all this... After everything she has done / her general attitude, do you honestly believe that a speech based on all these other statements will make a difference ?

You say above that you are "done"... But the fact you have spent so much time planning this "speech" in my eyes makes it look like you are very much still attached and are hoping that your one last attempt at "reason" will shake her from this fantasy or turn her thinking.. Your speech will be based on rational and logic... She is working on emotion. My personal take on this is that if you were detached, you would be spending time with the kids / GAL rather than spending time on the analysis above..

Any speech will just result in her cake eating further.. She may cry and let you what you want to hear, but if she wanted you back, she would come back to you... She is still cake eating and enjoying her new life, even if it isnt what she expected.

Again, this speech you are planning looks like a pursuit to me...

You need tough love with the ex... and on here people also need to be tough with the fellow LBS...

So applogies if this post comes across as harsh...

but

As the saying goes - "Actions speek louder than words"

or as Elvis would say

"A little less conversation, a little more action please"

Get rid of the horse !!!! and either file or at least bag any remaining clothes / items up and get her out of your daily life.. Focus on you and the kids and keep the contact about the kids.. You can do this....
Posted By: LH19

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/17/19 10:01 AM

C,

I want to expand on what HM posted. Everything in life is about timing and unfortunately you missed your timing on a grandiose speech you've been researching. What you are planning may have worked in the beginning but right now I am afraid it will completely back fire and end really badly for you. You can't go over for apps and drinks and apartment tours one day and then attempt a scripted ultimatum the next day. There is no way she will take you serious.

Again, let's start with tough love. Trigger goes. No more happy hours and pool parties. Actions that you are done with the bs. Then when your ready you file. No warning you just do it. You can always pull it in the future if you it comes to it.
Posted By: sandi2

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/17/19 10:10 AM

Curtis, you may already know that Starsky & Puppy Dog Tails are the same person. His original threads were under the user name Ole Chocolate Eyes. He admits to being a typical nice guy, but I gotta tell ya......he became a superstar in the eyes of those on the board back then, and his words continue on today. He stepped out of his NGS and found his alpha b@lls. IMHO, that's what really saved his M! I respect him a lot, and I think anyone who reads his advice would quickly learn how to approach various situations with a WW.

Of course, Coach & Greek were the lovely married couple on the board, and about the only one I remember where there was no type of affair. Coach was a great leader with simple but wise words.

Now Robx was another one of my favorites. He started off kind of weak and nice-guyish. But man, when he decided to change, he went all the way. He was tough and took no b.s. from his WW. Not everyone agrees with his style, but you either love him or hate him. smile

I'm just reminiscing about some folks I really liked, and find myself missing them a lot. frown
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/17/19 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by helpme12

You have spent a lot of time and effort in summarizing all this... After everything she has done / her general attitude, do you honestly believe that a speech based on all these other statements will make a difference ?

You say above that you are "done"... But the fact you have spent so much time planning this "speech" in my eyes makes it look like you are very much still attached and are hoping that your one last attempt at "reason" will shake her from this fantasy or turn her thinking.. Your speech will be based on rational and logic... She is working on emotion. My personal take on this is that if you were detached, you would be spending time with the kids / GAL rather than spending time on the analysis above..

Any speech will just result in her cake eating further.. She may cry and let you what you want to hear, but if she wanted you back, she would come back to you... She is still cake eating and enjoying her new life, even if it isnt what she expected.

You need tough love with the ex... and on here people also need to be tough with the fellow LBS...

Get rid of the horse !!!! and either file or at least bag any remaining clothes / items up and get her out of your daily life.. Focus on you and the kids and keep the contact about the kids.. You can do this....

HelpMe, I donít know if it will make a difference. What Iíve been doing hasnít stopped her affairs, so do something different. What I know is that I havenít given her a choice in this manner before. I am not fully detached. However, I am at a crossroads. If she would end her affairs today, I would be willing to work on the MR. If she doesnít end her affairs, Iím ready for D and to find someone better for myself and my kids. She has enjoyed the luxuries of extreme cake eating and has not felt any fear of loss from me. Delivering this message, giving her the choice, and following through with actions to show tough love is the next step in my plan.

Bear in mind that I gathered these snippets over the past 6+ months. I did spend an exorbitant amount of time here reading through sitch archives trying to find that magical piece of information that could turn my W back towards me. Hereís the thing, it doesnít exist. In fact, no one knows what may ultimately work in my sitch or if she has absolutely closed the door and nothing will work. I feel this is a message that I need to deliver to start tough love, get the horse out, limit contact with her except for the kids, and move forward.

I do appreciate having a sounding board in this forum. It really helps the LBS thoroughly evaluate their thoughts and consider the possible outcome of words and actions to assess whether it will move us closer to or farther from our goals.

Originally Posted by LH19
Everything in life is about timing and unfortunately you missed your timing on a grandiose speech you've been researching. What you are planning may have worked in the beginning but right now I am afraid it will completely back fire and end really badly for you. You can't go over for apps and drinks and apartment tours one day and then attempt a scripted ultimatum the next day. There is no way she will take you serious.

Again, let's start with tough love. Trigger goes. No more happy hours and pool parties. Actions that you are done with the bs. Then when your ready you file. No warning you just do it. You can always pull it in the future if it comes to it.

LH, I know that I waited too long. In retrospect, I would have started tough love immediately after discovering the PA in early December. I had way too much fear and shock from BD at that time. I didnít have the proper tools or know enough about DBing. It took so many months to get to this point and muster the courage. I agree that I most likely missed the best and several other better opportunities with respect to timing. I encourage others reading my sitch to learn from my mistakes and not to take a passive approach with a WW hoping that they will wake up.

Iíve received so much great advice and support here and one reason why I continue to post is so that others may learn what might work or might not work and have a better shot at saving their marriages. Iíve resigned myself to the notion that a choice/ultimatum such as this may gain me nothing. It has seemed to be the best course of action for many others. Better late than never and knowing that I didnít give her a direct choice. I donít see how it could backfire, Iíve already lost her and sheís cheating, I feel Iím already living the worst ending. How much worse can it get?
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/17/19 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by sandi2
Curtis, you may already know that Starsky & Puppy Dog Tails are the same person. His original threads were under the user name Ole Chocolate Eyes. I respect him a lot, and I think anyone who reads his advice would quickly learn how to approach various situations with a WW.

I'm just reminiscing about some folks I really liked, and find myself missing them a lot. frown

Sandi, yes, Iíve been on the board long enough to know of Puppies multiple aliases. His approach and guidance has proven to be quite successful for many. I agree that Robx took it to a whole new level.

Iím sure you do miss them. Your posts are right there with them in those threads. Those of us going through this now are very fortunate that you still visit and post often to help us out. Thank you!!
Posted By: MrBrside

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/17/19 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by curtis7
I donít see how it could backfire, Iíve already lost her and sheís cheating, I feel Iím already living the worst ending. How much worse can it get?


I'll be honest with you - this is from my perspective only... SELF RESPECT... My sitch started a little before yours, and i found this forum way way to late. Looking back, i feel i did a lot of stuff wrong - the chasing, the love messages, the pursuit, accepting the cake eating.. All this eats away at self respect. I didnt discuss my sitch with friends or family - i cut off from my friends - because i knew they would lose respect for me if i told them the truth.. i knew i had lost my own self respect... Once i found this forum i changed everything i did and the way i acted within weeks, with the exception of checking messages ( this was for proof if i ever needed it in the future )

You cannot demand respect from others, you earn it... But you also need to earn self respect from within yourself..

i googled self respect: "pride and confidence in oneself; a feeling that one is behaving with honour and dignity"

So i will ask you a couple of straight up questions...

1) Do you honestly believe that anything you say will change her tune ? really ? - based on everything you have read and the hundreds of contributions on this forum - do you believe your WW is any different, or you can offer something that all the other LBS didnt try ?

2) You may have "already lost her" , but you are not letting go...- So stop looking at what you have lost - look at what you can gain.... Self respect - by moving forward without her.... The pursuit, the chasing, the pleeding - all chips away at your self respect. Do you believe giving her a big speech about losing you / what you will do / divorce etc is behaving with honour and dignity ? - it reeks of desperation..

That does nothing for your self respect IMO, and i cant see how it will do anything for her respect towards you ... So what do you achieve by giving this speech?

Once you give your speech, and she cake eats even more / your realise it was a bad idea etc , you have chipped away another small piece of self respect..

This is my take on it.. You need to do as you see fit, but you cant begin to heel if you still keep thinking you can reason with this person... Rational vs Emotion .....nothing constructive will come out of it, as its 2 different languages..

GAL, KIDS, SELF RESPECT....
Posted By: LH19

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/17/19 03:30 PM

C,

Why not just file?
Posted By: sandi2

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/17/19 03:56 PM

Yes, I remember all those posters, and we still have some great ones today. I wanted to share a few thoughts about Txhubby. He did not post his personal story for a long, long time. He would always encourage people to expose the spouse's affair, but come to find out---he had not exposed his own W's affair......it was the OMW that did it. Txhubby's WW did not have remorse or try to do anything to work on their MR, that I remember. They remained in an in-house separation. Finally, Txhubby had had enough and one day he posted that he was wanting to walk away. He sounded much like a WAH to me, and I responded to him a couple of times about it. Next thing I knew, he was posting his story, or rather the updated version, and telling all the LBS's not to put up with what he had tolerated. He was done with his W and walking out the door, and she was crying & pleading with him to give her another chance. The tables had turned! Last I heard, he still had her walking a chalk line, b/c he told her if she messed one time he was gone.

I think in many cases, the H has to reach the point that Txhubby reached. I hope you aren't one of those who will just be beaten up until there is no nothing else to beat out of you. I'd rather think you will be like Txhubby and one day it will hit you and you'll be done with it. Until then, I don't think what we say is going to make a big difference in what action you decide to take......and I don't mean that sarcastically.

I don't know how many times I've read where you say you aren't completely detached yet. I read some others say the same thing. Do you see detaching as not loving her anymore?

Anyway, I hope you will be able to let go of that rope pretty soon, before it hangs you.
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/17/19 05:31 PM

Originally Posted by sandi2
Finally, Txhubby had had enough and one day he posted that he was wanting to walk away. He sounded much like a WAH to me, and I responded to him a couple of times about it. Next thing I knew, he was posting his story, or rather the updated version, and telling all the LBS's not to put up with what he had tolerated. He was done with his W and walking out the door...

I think in many cases, the H has to reach the point that Txhubby reached. I hope you aren't one of those who will just be beaten up until there is no nothing else to beat out of you. I'd rather think you will be like Txhubby and one day it will hit you and you'll be done with it. Until then, I don't think what we say is going to make a big difference in what action you decide to take......and I don't mean that sarcastically.

I feel that Iím at the same point TxHubby reached. Iíve endured a ton of internal pain, witnessed and discovered things that I never thought were possible with my W, havenít exposed her proclivities to others, and primarily relied on the support here and in my faith. You are right that the LBH has to take that leap when they are ready. We hear the repeated advice to drop the rope, but putting it into practice and truly living it takes commitment to not looking back.

Originally Posted by LH19
C, Why not just file?

It is important to me to know that I gave her the opportunity and choice directly to work on our MR before filing. Itís just something I need to do for myself and if my kids ever ask if I did everything I could in the future. Doing this will help me gain closure and serve as a milestone to fully drop the rope.

Adding to that, S8 asked me this morning if we were going to have to leave our house. I told him I donít see that happening anytime soon and thatís why Iíve been fighting so long for mom and havenít given up. He then asked me if I was going to quit. I didnít know how to answer him, but it really got me thinking. Iíve been giving my all for the long-term vision of what I value and believe is best for my family. My sitch has also served to teach my kids the importance of commitment, loyalty, honesty, integrity, love, and forgiveness. S8 wants me to continue standing and I want to do whatís right in his eyes without completely losing myself in the process.

My focus right now is putting everything into perspective and deciding on the timing of putting my plan into action.

LH, your recommendation to cut out the friend activities is a good start.

Originally Posted by sandi2
I don't know how many times I've read where you say you aren't completely detached yet. I read some others say the same thing. Do you see detaching as not loving her anymore?

No, I donít see detachment as no longer loving her. I see it as her words and actions not having control over me. My problem is that they still do at times. For instance, when she receives a text around me, it triggers an emotional response that it is one of the OM and that causes my mood to change and I feel angry, hurt, and betrayed.

Iíve come a long way in terms of accepting that she has her own life and letting go of outcomes. However, there are still a few triggers that cause the emotion to flood back in and I think itís because surviving and recovering from infidelity is one of the most painful experiences a person can go through. I know it has been for me at least. Especially because her infidelity persists.
Posted By: LH19

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/17/19 06:10 PM

Just so weíre clear, when I said why donít you just file I meant to do it when your ready without the speech. Actions not words.
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/19/19 02:07 PM

So, D4ís birthday is coming up in a couple weeks and she wanted to have a unicorn themed party at a local park. So, earlier this week I rented the pavilion and W ordered a cake and decorations. Iím okay with hosting the party with W as itís for D4 and I want her to be happy for the occasion with both parents present.

However, last night W came up with a new idea. She texted suggesting maybe we should cancel the party at the park and move it to ďour placeĒ so she could dress up her horse like a unicorn and bring it out all dressed up for the kids to ride. Then she texted I just donít know how you feel about having the party at ďyour placeĒ. W also suggested possibly bringing a few select kids over after the park party to surprise them with the unicorn and rides.

Iím confused, is it our place or my place because she referred to it as both in back-to-back texts? W speaks in this manner quite often where she speaks in ďweĒ and ďourĒ about our marital property and plans, then sometimes catches herself and quickly corrects by saying ďyourĒ. I feel she talks in this joint fashion mostly out of habit and not that she envisions a future together. I also believe that she does it occasionally to gaslight me and keep me as a backup plan.

D4 would get a kick out of riding the unicorn horse with her friends, but I donít know that I want to play and fake happy family around the guests. Also, I really donít want divorced BFF at my house. Thoughts? Do I bite the bullet so D4 has a great day or put my foot down and say no?
Posted By: TBSakaJ9

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/19/19 02:23 PM

My xw still called me honey a few times after our divorce and referred to things as we. Imo she did it out of habit. We still do joint birthday parties for the kids were we are both present together. My opinion do whatever is in the best interest of your daughter. It has nothing to do with your w and just because you are at the same function doesnt mean your playing happy family.
Posted By: SteveLW

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/19/19 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by curtis7
Better late than never and knowing that I didnít give her a direct choice. I donít see how it could backfire, Iíve already lost her and sheís cheating, I feel Iím already living the worst ending. How much worse can it get?


So how does this command respect?
Posted By: SteveLW

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/19/19 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by curtis7
Iím confused, is it our place or my place because she referred to it as both in back-to-back texts? W speaks in this manner quite often where she speaks in ďweĒ and ďourĒ about our marital property and plans, then sometimes catches herself and quickly corrects by saying ďyourĒ. I feel she talks in this joint fashion mostly out of habit and not that she envisions a future together. I also believe that she does it occasionally to gaslight me and keep me as a backup plan.


You are really dwelling on her choice of pronouns?!? We, our, yours, mine. Who cares?? They are meaningless. You are confused because you are trying to tell the future based on things that have no meaning! When I talk about my favorite sports team sometimes I say "We are going to win!" Sometimes I say "They are going to win." Does that mean I have a future with the sports team? Does it mean I am affiliated with the sports team? NO! They are words. That's it. I feel like you hang on her every word looking for hope and meaning. Have you so soon forgotten "Believe nothing she says?"

Originally Posted by curtis7

D4 would get a kick out of riding the unicorn horse with her friends, but I donít know that I want to play and fake happy family around the guests. Also, I really donít want divorced BFF at my house. Thoughts? Do I bite the bullet so D4 has a great day or put my foot down and say no?


I think you answered your own question: " I really donít want divorced BFF at my house" That's your answer.

"I've considered the proposal, but feel it is best to continue with the party as we originally planned it."

When she protests, gets mad, pleads, you listen and validate. But stand your ground.

As far as this "but I donít know that I want to play and fake happy family around the guests". Wrong attitude. Forget the guests. You need to play happy family for D4!!
Posted By: neffer

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/19/19 03:39 PM

She must welcome reality Curtis. Is what Steve says. YOU need to start your happy memories with your children. Thatīs where love is.

Stand for your own there. Respect starts when you stand for yourself.

Keep doing what works man. Be strong doing that.

Respect!
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/19/19 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by TBSakaJ9
My opinion do whatever is in the best interest of your daughter. It has nothing to do with your w and just because you are at the same function doesnt mean your playing happy family.

Thanks, I plan to make D4ís party the most enjoyable and memorable she can experience. Kids are my priority.
Originally Posted by Steve85
I feel like you hang on her every word looking for hope and meaning. Have you so soon forgotten "Believe nothing she says?"

Steve, I meant the confused comment to come across sarcastically and to highlight how challenging it is for the WW to keep everything straight in their minds amongst all of the lies. Trust me, I believe nothing she says. They are just empty words that I am getting better at brushing off. At times, Iím just in awe of what comes out of her mouth and am amazed at the logic (err lack of) processing in her brain.
Posted By: TBSakaJ9

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/19/19 03:59 PM

Imo it is only happy family if you are trying to make it happy family. Really doing it so you can spend time with your W vs doing it because it really is about your D. As I became more detached I realized that my daughters get limited time with me and their mom together and it is good for them to see us interact in a positive manner. I don't for them and with no ulterior motives.
Posted By: neffer

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/19/19 04:06 PM

J9, you are far, far, far advanced into DB road than Curtis is...IMHO, I agree with Steve. Show W some reality.
Posted By: job

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/19/19 04:23 PM

Please start a new thread and link your two threads together.
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 4) - 07/19/19 04:45 PM

Link to Part 5:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2857721
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