Growing Pains(LB55 thread 4) - DivorceBusting.com

Previous thread

So I sent W the message about me feeling dismissed and disrespected and that if that behavior continues will put an end to the conversation. I told her that cornering me at little league was wrong and if it happens again I will walk away.

She replied that she isn�t mad and will wait for me to initiate communications once I�m feeling better. In Talking about divorce at little league that was what I wanted, more inperson communications and she was just obliging what I wanted to be nice.

I�m confused, this is placing responsibility on me for communicating again. Her message to me did not in any way acknowledge my feelings or desire to improve communication between us. Total invalidation.

Previous me would have tried to get her to see it my way by repeating myself with emphasis on the things I think are important. That would not work but now I can actually see that.

I�m interested to hear some thoughts on handling this in a healthy way. My goal is good healthy communication. I feel like I�m hitting my head against a wall right now. This is likely because I�m still emotionally attached in every way. I really want the closure that will never come. She can affect my mood in every word. In person is especially hard. I want to ask so badly what the F she is thinking and how blowing up our family for selfish reasons is right in her mind. I won�t but I want to.

Does it ever get easier to drop the kids off? It�s so hard every stinking time.

I�m upset for the rest of the evening every time I got there to drop them off. So hard to let go.

W was all chatty about my family and how the weekend was. I didn�t engage her. Kept the answers short and to the point. They are fine. Niece is talking. Yes she is getting big.

Told me all about how good it will be to get the house gone through and for me to be happy to finally get my stuff from the house. It�s been almost 6 months now since I was restrained from going into my own home. I�m not even sure I care about my stuff anymore. It�s just stuff.

No consideration given to my boundary of not talking about this stuff until I feel like it. Just hugged the kids and left ASAP.

Originally Posted by LB55

I�m confused, this is placing responsibility on me for communicating again. Her message to me did not in any way acknowledge my feelings or desire to improve communication between us. Total invalidation.

Validation is a one-way street. It's something you do, not something you receive (unless you are very lucky). I validate coworkers, my boss, my girlfriend, my kids, my XW. I get a little bit of validation back now and then, it happens so rarely that I'm usually like "wow!" Validation is an unusual skill, so don't be surprised not to get it back because most people just don't know how.

Quote

I�m interested to hear some thoughts on handling this in a healthy way. My goal is good healthy communication. I feel like I�m hitting my head against a wall right now. This is likely because I�m still emotionally attached in every way. I really want the closure that will never come. She can affect my mood in every word. In person is especially hard. I want to ask so badly what the F she is thinking and how blowing up our family for selfish reasons is right in her mind. I won�t but I want to.

Your goal for now should just be strictly business communications. Limit your discussions to the kids. Only discuss D or financial issues if absolutely necessary. Do not talk about anything else. Maybe in time, but for now keep away from all other subjects.

Also work on letting go of your need to know "why" this happened. You will never know, because she probably doesn't know either. She's acting on emotions and she can't explain her emotions. Neither can you, and neither can a college full of tenured psychologists. I understand how frustrating that is, believe me we ALL get it! We ALL want/ wanted to know "why". It wouldn't change anything to know, but I guess it's just human nature that we crave some kind of explanation.

Quote

Does it ever get easier to drop the kids off? It�s so hard every stinking time.

It does, it takes a while but it'll become routine.

Quote

W was all chatty about my family and how the weekend was. I didn�t engage her. Kept the answers short and to the point. They are fine. Niece is talking. Yes she is getting big.

Good!

Originally Posted by AnotherStander

Originally Posted by LB55

I'm confused, this is placing responsibility on me for communicating again. Her message to me did not in any way acknowledge my feelings or desire to improve communication between us. Total invalidation.

Validation is a one-way street. It's something you do, not something you receive (unless you are very lucky). I validate coworkers, my boss, my girlfriend, my kids, my XW. I get a little bit of validation back now and then, it happens so rarely that I'm usually like "wow!" Validation is an unusual skill, so don't be surprised not to get it back because most people just don't know how.

Quote

I'm interested to hear some thoughts on handling this in a healthy way. My goal is good healthy communication. I feel like I'm hitting my head against a wall right now. This is likely because I'm still emotionally attached in every way. I really want the closure that will never come. She can affect my mood in every word. In person is especially hard. I want to ask so badly what the F she is thinking and how blowing up our family for selfish reasons is right in her mind. I won't but I want to.

Your goal for now should just be strictly business communications. Limit your discussions to the kids. Only discuss D or financial issues if absolutely necessary. Do not talk about anything else. Maybe in time, but for now keep away from all other subjects.

Also work on letting go of your need to know "why" this happened. You will never know, because she probably doesn't know either. She's acting on emotions and she can't explain her emotions. Neither can you, and neither can a college full of tenured psychologists. I understand how frustrating that is, believe me we ALL get it! We ALL want/ wanted to know "why". It wouldn't change anything to know, but I guess it's just human nature that we crave some kind of explanation.

Validation is a one way street. That's a good way to put it. I am not necessarily looking for it to be returned from W, however I am aware of when someone does it now for me and for others. I'm paying attention now. I'd love to get some back from her. I know that wont happen though, because this is all about her. I can see how my statement would elude to my looking for validation, but that wasn't my intent.

The why is a thing I need to let go of. Its so hard for us analytical types. I cant fix things when I don't understand the cause of failure. I know its not my job to fix the marriage, and its not my job to fix her. I'm working on fixing myself, and I've seen that improvement. Hard to focus on just what I can control sometimes. I need to keep working on that aspect of my life.

I can't help this constant gut feeling I've got that this is about punishment of me in her mind. Once she feels she has proven her point and I'm shown who is in charge, she will stand down the assault. In my opinion, she doesn't want to simply get divorced, or she would be plowing forward and interested in getting the legal stuff done. She isn't at all interested in that end of it. W Says we can't rush through this in order to ensure we don't screw it up. I feel that when she is done punishing me for my past transgressions and her anger is satisfied, she will want to move forward as the one who was right and the one that deserves credit for giving our M another chance and fixing our relationship. This is the sweeping it under the rug portion that everyone says to watch out for.

I'm not sure I'm strong enough to make that decision for me right now. I would just say yes to R to get some semblance of normality and comfort back in my life, and I know that isn't the right answer from reading on here. I wasn't a good communicator in our marriage, but I know my W really well, and I know her behavior patterns like the back of my hand. Especially with all this time to think through things and analyze the past issues we have both contributed to. I could see the writing on the wall months ago that she was going to ask for all 3 of our homes in exchange for not taking part of my military retirement. She informally told me that she is going to ask for that exact thing 3 weeks ago.

A couple other strange things from last night in our short interaction while she was trying to talk with me.

1. She asked if I wanted to stay and see the dogs for a little bit. I really do, but I declined because I didn't want it to open an opportunity for her to start telling me what I did wrong for the umpteenth time. I wasn't in the mood to hear it nor to validate her feelings last night.

2. I sent her a picture I took of the kids hiking. She said that its ok for me to send pics of me doing things with the kids as well. I thought this strange as she took down all pictures of me anywhere they could be seen in the house. I can see in the windows when I drop the kids off and they are all gone. I only said I would think about it.

Do I send her things with me and the kids having a good time together? Not gifts, just pictures of us doing fun things. I just don't know why she would want that nor if i should do it. I want to visit the dogs, but I am thinking I should ask for it vice her springing it on me while I am unprepared mentally to stay the course. She has never offered me to see them since this whole thing started.

Originally Posted by LB55

She asked if I wanted to stay and see the dogs for a little bit. I really do, but I declined because I didn't want it to open an opportunity for her to start telling me what I did wrong for the umpteenth time. I wasn't in the mood to hear it nor to validate her feelings last night.

That's weird but WAS's will do all kinds of weird things. Pull you in and push you away is the norm.

Quote

Do I send her things with me and the kids having a good time together? Not gifts, just pictures of us doing fun things.

No, definitely not. She didn't say she WANTS you to, she's just saying if you do she won't freak out. Not the same thing. Post pics of you and the kids on FB, if she really wants to see you that bad she can go there and knock herself out.

AS nailed it. LB you seem to be hanging on everything she is saying and doing. Try to avoid that Detachment is not giving a crap.

Originally Posted by Steve85

AS nailed it. LB you seem to be hanging on everything she is saying and doing. Try to avoid that Detachment is not giving a crap.

I agree Steve, I am still working on the full detachment. I disagree that I hang on every word, but I do pay attention to what she is saying. I am working on active listening and being non-defensive in my listening, and that has to happen with her and others. It is a skill that i am improving to better myself, not to win her back. I can't actively listen if I don't give a crap about what she says. Others that do not necessarily know the details have noted that my communication skills are rapidly improving. I am engaging people in conversation and they are telling me their issues and I am listening, empathizing, and validating their feelings without injecting my opinions or solutions to their problems. I am happy with that progress.

I do need to stop trying to analyze how what she says affects me and our sitch; just being in her presence still affects me. If I am close enough to smell her scent my mind jumps back to the good days. It's almost like PTSD. One familiar thing takes you back to square one. Its a tough task and a tough road ahead. A few months ago she told me when little league practice was and kind of gave me a funny look. I didn't go because I was scared she was going to have a friend repo my truck. Irrational but very real at the time. I was so scared. She had taken away everything in one fell swoop. My whole life was blown up in an instant. I can't be around her for very long because of this.

I'm talking with my pastor later this week about forgiveness. I need to do that for me. I haven't yet but it needs to happen.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander

Originally Posted by LB55

She asked if I wanted to stay and see the dogs for a little bit. I really do, but I declined because I didn't want it to open an opportunity for her to start telling me what I did wrong for the umpteenth time. I wasn't in the mood to hear it nor to validate her feelings last night.

That's weird but WAS's will do all kinds of weird things. Pull you in and push you away is the norm.

Quote

Do I send her things with me and the kids having a good time together? Not gifts, just pictures of us doing fun things.

No, definitely not. She didn't say she WANTS you to, she's just saying if you do she won't freak out. Not the same thing. Post pics of you and the kids on FB, if she really wants to see you that bad she can go there and knock herself out.

I always appreciate the perspective AS. You are right, she didn't say she wanted it, she just said it was ok.

I'm going to ask to see the dogs next time I drop the kids off. Its what I want after all.

She blocked me on FB, I will tell her the pics are available there. If she unblocks, then so be it.

Originally Posted by LB55

[quote=Steve85]I can't actively listen if I don't give a crap about what she says.

I disagree with this.

I was at the store yesterday buying some things. The cashier was nice enough. Told me about wanting to get off work and enjoy Memorial Day. How he wanted to go to the parade that morning as he hasn't been able to go in several years. I actively listened. Empathized. Even validated.

But I didn't really give a crap.

Originally Posted by Steve85

Originally Posted by LB55

[quote=Steve85]I can't actively listen if I don't give a crap about what she says.

I disagree with this.

I was at the store yesterday buying some things. The cashier was nice enough. Told me about wanting to get off work and enjoy Memorial Day. How he wanted to go to the parade that morning as he hasn't been able to go in several years. I actively listened. Empathized. Even validated.

But I didn't really give a crap.

Fair point Steve. I will take this on board and think about how to implement it. Its a change in my mentality and might take a bit to figure out the how part for me as a person.

Not that I'm experienced here, but I think that this could be chalked up to habit. Learning to listen and validate when you don't care is just a social growth opportunity.

Like how I believe love is a verb and you can create it through actions. You can create caring about others by doing it.

Originally Posted by LB55

She blocked me on FB, I will tell her the pics are available there.

You need to change your thought process. You do not need to tell her. You shouldn't tell her.

Co-parenting conversations only. And these should be about "Big" parenting decisions. Not minor ones. You parent your way at your house. She parents her way at her house.

Let her go. Set her free.

I asked W to discuss an issue with S11. She agreed to discuss it with me. When I arrived her parents car was in the driveway. This made me nervous, I proceeded anyway. We talked about the issue my son. It went ok.

She decided to start some R talk once we were done with the kid discussion. I didn�t ask questions, just listened and validated her feelings. There was less blame and finger pointing so that was good. She talked for about an hour. Dinner was ready, so it was time for me to go. She kept asking me if I had something I wanted to say. I simply said I�m here to listen. Before I left she said that when she is ready to hear my feelings she will let me know. I�m good with that.

I had never listened that intently to her before. Eye contact, repeating portions of what she said, etc. At one point she asked why I was looking at her like I would have a couple years ago. I had read that one can reduce defensiveness by remembering a good time from the past during a tough discussion. So that�s what I did.

I was happy with how I handled it. No arguing, just an hour of validation.

That is very impressive. Being on the receiving end of an R talk is the hardest thing to deal with, I've found. To listen and validate for an hour is amazing. Well done. Taking notes here, I like the bit about reducing defensiveness, something I struggle with internally even though I've got it sorted externally. Mad DBing skills there LB!

That is hugely impressive. I remember listening to H rant for an hour or so earlier on in our situation - about his anger and blame and resentment. I think at the time I thought I was validating his feelings (and I believe I did make some good validating statements) but I also was told here - which I accept - I was enabling his verbal abuse. I still struggle with where to draw the line when it comes to listening to feelings I find challenging or perceptions of events that don't agree with and out and out verbal abuse, but I am getting better at it. I think it's fine to have a boundary of how MUCH validating you will do in any one session. If an hour is fine for you - great - but perhaps thinking of a way to get out of a conversation like that when you've had enough would also be useful (I wish I'd have been able to perfect this). You're not a bottomless bit of patience and your needs are important too. It's also very hard to listen to someone's feelings when they have little or no interest in or respect of yours. I understand that validation might be a one way street for a good while in many of our situations, but it's also been useful for me to think about how much validation I am willing to 'spend' without getting any back...

Originally Posted by dillydaf

That is very impressive. Being on the receiving end of an R talk is the hardest thing to deal with, I've found. To listen and validate for an hour is amazing. Well done. Taking notes here, I like the bit about reducing defensiveness, something I struggle with internally even though I've got it sorted externally. Mad DBing skills there LB!

It is tough. Thanks for the positive feedback.

I�ve committed in my head to giving this the best shot I can. I�ve dropped my anger for the most part, of don�t ruminate on the events of the past, and I�m working to see the good side of her.

She can still leave. I will be ok with that. I won�t be ok with me not trying. I�m getting better at these skills for me, not for her. The difference is I�ve decided to use them instead of a relatively cold indifference. So we will see how it plays out.

I�m open to working on this, I will continue to show that but won�t be saying that to her anytime soon. We have to be able to talk before any of that could start to happen. So for now I listen like I�ve never done before.

Non defensive listening. Google it. Look for the article by Gottman. It�s good stuff, at least for me.

Originally Posted by AlisonUK

That is hugely impressive. I remember listening to H rant for an hour or so earlier on in our situation - about his anger and blame and resentment. I think at the time I thought I was validating his feelings (and I believe I did make some good validating statements) but I also was told here - which I accept - I was enabling his verbal abuse. I still struggle with where to draw the line when it comes to listening to feelings I find challenging or perceptions of events that don't agree with and out and out verbal abuse, but I am getting better at it. I think it's fine to have a boundary of how MUCH validating you will do in any one session. If an hour is fine for you - great - but perhaps thinking of a way to get out of a conversation like that when you've had enough would also be useful (I wish I'd have been able to perfect this). You're not a bottomless bit of patience and your needs are important too. It's also very hard to listen to someone's feelings when they have little or no interest in or respect of yours. I understand that validation might be a one way street for a good while in many of our situations, but it's also been useful for me to think about how much validation I am willing to 'spend' without getting any back...

Yes I totally get that Alison. Where to draw the line. My W is full of blame, fault, and anger. All pointed at me. She didn�t do that for the most part this time, so I kept listening. I had multiple outs, I was near my vehicle, I could have ended the conversation and got in and left at any time.

An hour was a long time for me. It won�t be that way every time. It worked for this time. I had already set a boundary that any disrespectful tone or statements will result in me ending the conversation a few days prior. She didn�t test my resolve on this day. She will and I will have to end it and leave. I�m prepared for that.

I�m getting better at this too. The concept of validating and not agreeing is a tough one. Steve hit it on the head earlier in this thread. You don�t have to give a crap about what they said to validate. You are validating their feeling not their actions, thoughts, or words.

This was a different conversation than in the past for us. This was the first time I didn�t leave upset and angry. It had very little to do with what she said, it had everything to do with how I handled it. Control myself and my reactions. I can end it at anytime if she decides to become vile and spew vitriol at me. So can you.

AS put it well for me a bit earlier. Validation is a one way street. Most people don�t know how to do it. If you only give validation expecting to receive it back I don�t think it will work. My W has no concept of validation. She is the best invalidater I know. Recognizing that behavior from her and not trying to get her to validate my statements is a it step for me. Previously I would have tried to get her to understand by repeating myself, stating in a different manner, using different words; all looking for the validation of my feeling. I�ve stopped looking for validation, instead choosing to validate others as a way to improve myself. It�s only been a few short days since I set my mind to this, there will be setbacks, but I can see progress within myself and in my relationships with others.

This is such a great conversation right here. Going to set myself the challenge of validating someone every day now! Is it wrong that I'm almost hoping for an R talk once I've got my skills honed a bit more?

I have been puzzling over this. I am not sure how it builds a healthy relationship if being a well differentiated adult means learning to validate ourselves. I can try to validate H and I can accept he doesn't have the skills or capacity to validate me, and as an adult I need to be working towards self-validation. But then don't I want to be in a relationship with someone who can self-validate too? Doesn't dishing it out just stop him learning to do it for himself, and isn't withdrawing validation a part of going dark and removing the benefits of being in a marriage from the spouse who has BDd?

Just curious as to what people's thoughts are on this.

OK, so validating as far as I can see is demonstrating using words that you understand someone else's feelings and accept them. Not that you agree with them, not that you take blame, not that you act defensive or argue with them and not that you tell them they have got the wrong interpretation, not that you push the Fixit button. Because their feelings are their feelings and they are entitled to them just as we are entitled to our own feelings. And having someone else understand your feelings is nice, especially if you feel like you're aggrieved and misunderstood, as our spouses have done for years (and as we probably have done too, let's be honest, but we are being the bigger person here and accepting that their feelings are valid first despite their horrible behaviour).

So an unhealthy relationship is one where both people are blaming each other and not understanding how the other person feels. In order to stop that negative cycle at least one of you has to change that. And if you show someone you understand their feelings then it makes it harder for them to blame you, because part of the reason they're blaming might be that they feel misunderstood.

If you're both busy self-validating then where is the relationship? I agree that you need to understand your own feelings and accept them, and preferably not act on them if they tell you to do stupid and impulsive things! But sharing your internal world to some extent is what builds intimacy isn't it? And at some stage your spouse will have to jump on the validation bandwagon in terms of you being able to share your feelings with them and have them understand them and not be defensive blah blah blah (but you will have done this in a non-blamey healthy way), but for now one person has to get that bandwagon moving.

Well, that is my take, hopefully I'm along the right lines! I need to practice a lot more, I've been in defensive, fixing mode for so long it's difficult to step back and take a different approach.

Originally Posted by AlisonUK

I have been puzzling over this. I am not sure how it builds a healthy relationship if being a well differentiated adult means learning to validate ourselves. I can try to validate H and I can accept he doesn't have the skills or capacity to validate me, and as an adult I need to be working towards self-validation. But then don't I want to be in a relationship with someone who can self-validate too? Doesn't dishing it out just stop him learning to do it for himself, and isn't withdrawing validation a part of going dark and removing the benefits of being in a marriage from the spouse who has BDd?

Just curious as to what people's thoughts are on this.

Validating one�s own feelings is helpful. It helps you to acknowledge your own feelings. You can�t make anyone validate for you. If you can�t validate yourself, you are seeking validation. Seeking validation is useless. I�ve tried for a long time with everyone. Saying things to hope they acknowledge my feelings, saying things I don�t think or want to see if I can get some validation, etc.

Don�t validate others hoping to get validated. Don�t give gifts to others expecting to receive gifts back. That�s my mindset.

I can�t comment on the going dark thing, I didn�t do that. I am showing change, being friendly, and doing it how I want to do it. She is noticing. She can�t figure out what the heck is going on. It�s kind of funny.

Following our conversation the other night, I haven�t really engaged her on anything, just like I said I would do. When she is ready I am here to listen.

She texted me today in a more pleasant tone to ask me for my version of how co parenting will work and to put it in writing. I told her I will think about it but that I am hesitant to put anything in writing because I�ve been burned by that.

She also said she owed me a conversation where she listens and I talk. I disagreed; I told her that she doesn�t owe me for my time and attention. This really got her thinking. She replied that she always thought it should be quid pro quo and everyone always expects to receive something if they give something. Lots of Hmmm and interesting comments with thinking emojis. I simply replied that it is interesting, huh?

Also told me that if she had known what �I�m just here to listen� meant that she would have had more to say. She thought of many things that she would like to discuss after our conversation was over. Sounds like I have hours of non-defensive listening to come. That�s ok.

Then she asked me if it was a change in me or if I had always been that way. I haven�t replied. Of course I haven�t always been this way. I had no concept of validation until recently. So it�s a change. I�m hesitant to tell her that because she has to realize it�s a change in me, not me to tell her so. My Actions, not my words will do this. She needs to determine that for herself. This will be a difficult realization for her, as she has stated many times that people cannot change. I am choosing to remain mysterious at this point on the topic of change.

Giving validation without expecting it in return; a big breakthrough for LB. Thanks AS and Steve. This has been what I am struggling with and I feel great knowing that I can do this for myself. If it helps W to come around, then great. If not, I helps me Everyday anyway.

Had a fun day at the demolition derby with S11 yesterday and today mountain biking.

Alison I popped over to your thread and read the most recent posts. I did not go back and read the whole witch, different task for a different day.

The conversation about lipstick and lamb stood out to me. When he said that, your reply �I know that� in my opinion is invalidating. If I tell you something, and you say �I know that�, well why the F did I bother telling you then? I feel invalidated every time someone says that.

Alternative:

�I understand that it�s going to take more than lamb and lipstick to make this marriage work. What do you need to make progress towards making this work?� You heard what he said, didn�t defend yourself, nor did you agree with him. You also didn�t ask what you can do, instead asking what he does need. He may have told you, he may have exited the conversation. Hard to say. Just my thoughts on it.

Another example

W: You drink a gallon of rum every week!(regardless of whether you do, she FEELS you drink too much)
H: No, I only drink half a gallon each week! (This says W, you are wrong and I dismiss your feelings)
Alternative:
H: I understand that you think I drink too much. Thank you for sharing your feelings with me. ( acknowledges her feelings without agreeing; validation). Perhaps take it a step further with some action...go to an AA meeting, make a promise you can keep. If you won�t stop drinking, don�t promise that.

Hope that makes some sense. I�m still very new to this concept, but I feel like I�ve got the lightbulb going on more frequently.

Dilly,

You are spot on that someone has to stop the invalidation cycle. I�ve determined it is going to be me in my situation. I�m the one that is determined to improve myself. W can do what she wants. If I can practice and work on my validation skills with her, it will be simple to use them on more reasonable folks! Folks where one little slip doesn�t send you spiraling backwards into the ice age of your relationship every time.

I disagree that your partner must eventually get on the bandwagon. They might or might not. That�s not up to you. It�s your bandwagon, ride tall! If you choose to stay with them even though they don�t validate your feelings, that�s your choice. Expecting them to eventually get it and return the gift is doomed to failure and will result in more pain and suffering. Give them your validation gift if you choose, just don�t expect one in return. Accept them for who they are or it�s time to move on.

This is a nice discussion we have going on here. Thanks to everyone for chipping in! Wasn�t expecting my thread to take this turn, but it�s a welcome addition. A good topic of discussion for anyone!

Hmm, yes I agree they don't have to get on the validation bandwagon, like you said they don't OWE you anything. And having that kind of attitude is destructive to marriages in any case, keeping score is for sports teams, not relationships. I think what I meant is that if you manage to rebuild some sort of R then eventually they are going to want to know what's going on with you, in a more mutual way. Maybe that's what your W meant when she said it was your turn? It seems too early for that right now though. I think the issue will be letting down your defences a bit when the time does come to do that, especially if you've been the distancer in the R?

The concept of inability to change seems a common one, which I suppose makes sense because the reason they DBed us is because they felt hopeless. I like how you're showing not telling, very powerful.

I'm going to work more on validating as much as I can, I can tip over into sympathy sometimes which is a bit mumsy and can come across as patronising. It doesn't help that my H does NOT talk about his feelings very much, you have to dig hard underneath anything he says to find out where the emotions are, and it's hard doing it in a way which doesn't seem too psychologising.

The lipstick and lamb comment was unbelievably hurtful especially in the context of what had just happened, and I think validating in that situation would have been extremely difficult for Alison. You can't validate when you're feeling very emotionally triggered. Well, I can't. Just staying in the same room is hard enough then.

Very interesting conversation indeed!

Hi everyone

this is super helpful. Thank you for elaborating and thank you for letting me hijack your thread a bit to do it!

I really, really struggle with validating feelings while not enabling his verbal abuse of me - the only feeling I see him demonstrate most of the time is anger, and while he has every right to be angry, and I can validate anger, it is no longer healthy to sit there like a lemon going 'yes, I can see you're really angry' and 'it must be tough to be so angry' when he's throwing emotional hand grenades at me. If he's sharing his inner world, I will validate. If he's lashing out, it's verbal abuse and he can get out of my house.

The lamb and lipstick comment was lashing out. I can't remember his exact phrasing but it involved 'you getting tarted up' and it was designed to humiliate me.

There have been other times I have been able to validate his anger, and I do want to get better at it for my other relationships.

A couple of weeks ago he was talking a lot about the people at his work, who he is having trouble getting on with. He seems to spend most of the time he isn't at work at home in the dark drinking and playing computer games. He's been pulled up at work for his poor attitude and irritability. Privately, I think he doesn't know how to 'give' in relationships, and is probably treating others in a milder version of the way he treats me. What I said was 'it sounds like you just want some low pressure fun and it isn't happening, that must be really hard given how exhausting your work is' which I thought was okay - though there's room to improve.

This conversation has also helped me to think about the ways in which I communicate in ways that seek validation, and stop doing that. I do get a lot of emotional contact and empathy from my friends, and I don't really seek that anymore from H.

Alison: you don't validate anger, because anger is a secondary emotion, they express anger due to some other underlying emotion. Also, you don't validate their criticism of you, you validate the underlying feelings but not their interpretation. Validation is not sitting there taking someone hurling abuse at you, if it gets abusive then you put in a boundary for that behaviour.

So my IC has been helping me to explore my anger when I've expressed it. It's usually because I feel a sense of betrayal or abandonment, either on my behalf or my kids' behalf. Anger usually comes from feeling hurt, or ashamed, or fearful. I feel like I misunderstood my H's anger for a long time, and that helped neither of us, he's actually a very anxious person underneath and that comes out as irritability at best and anger at worst. Funnily enough, he expresses a lot less anger nowadays. I'm still learning how to deal with it when it does happen, that's an ongoing process for me because I grew up in a family which rarely expressed anger and avoided confrontation unless the anger turned explosive. Anger can also be useful, because it drives action, so sometimes anger is something I use in order to try to change things. But wallowing in anger or allowing it to continue for too long without addressing the underlying emotions is unhealthy.

Sorry, I got onto my own anger stuff there, but I think it helps if you can understand your own anger to then translate it into other people's anger, and which bits of it you validate. Being abusive towards someone else is never acceptable but validating the feelings behind anger: that is where true understanding can be made. Very hard, especially if you have a pattern of responses learnt over time!

Ahah. See, I did not know this.

Pretty much the only emotion I see from H and have done for a long time is anger. He looks depressed sometimes, but very very rarely says he is unhappy. He just seems totally shut down, which is why the validation is so hard.

I am going to practice by first and foremost validating myself!!

Originally Posted by LB55

This was a different conversation than in the past for us. This was the first time I didn�t leave upset and angry. It had very little to do with what she said, it had everything to do with how I handled it. Control myself and my reactions. I can end it at anytime if she decides to become vile and spew vitriol at me. So can you.

Awesome, well done LB!

Quote

AS put it well for me a bit earlier. Validation is a one way street. Most people don�t know how to do it. If you only give validation expecting to receive it back I don�t think it will work. My W has no concept of validation. She is the best invalidater I know. Recognizing that behavior from her and not trying to get her to validate my statements is a it step for me. Previously I would have tried to get her to understand by repeating myself, stating in a different manner, using different words; all looking for the validation of my feeling. I�ve stopped looking for validation, instead choosing to validate others as a way to improve myself. It�s only been a few short days since I set my mind to this, there will be setbacks, but I can see progress within myself and in my relationships with others.

Yes, well said, that is spot-on!

Alison: Well I guarantee that your H has a lot more emotions than just anger, it sounds like he's covering up those other emotions with anger. Of course, anger can be appropriate and useful and sometimes healthy, but anger is ABOUT something. Your H does sound very depressed, it often manifests as anger in men. I can see that it must be super hard to validate when he is shut down, I sometimes have that with my H.
When I say you shouldn't validate anger, well you shouldn't validate anger expressed with you as the target. That is abuse. Anger itself is a valid emotion and can be validated but it's not ok to dump that anger on someone else. Women are often taught that anger is not allowed, whereas men are often taught that it's the only acceptable emotion allowed, just to complicate matters...

Sorry we keep highjacking your thread LB55, see it as a compliment to your validating expertise!

Originally Posted by AlisonUK

I have been puzzling over this. I am not sure how it builds a healthy relationship if being a well differentiated adult means learning to validate ourselves. I can try to validate H and I can accept he doesn't have the skills or capacity to validate me, and as an adult I need to be working towards self-validation. But then don't I want to be in a relationship with someone who can self-validate too? Doesn't dishing it out just stop him learning to do it for himself, and isn't withdrawing validation a part of going dark and removing the benefits of being in a marriage from the spouse who has BDd?

Just curious as to what people's thoughts are on this.

Alison you are exactly right, the goal in a healthy relationship is two-way validation. In a DB'ing situation we're obviously not talking about healthy relationships, so validation is very much a one-way street as LB so aptly described a couple pages back. Now in your case and a few others, the situation is even more complicated because you are dealing with a full-blown narcissist and validating a narcissist can backfire because it's basically feeding their narcissism. So you can still validate, but you have to be careful to do it in a way that he can't interpret as you opening the door to more emotional/ verbal abuse from him.

This is very good - thank you. I'm not so interested in validating my H at the moment, I'd prefer not to be around him. But I do wonder if I have been leaning too heavily on my friends during this hard time and practicing some validation with them might be a way of paying some love into the emotional banks of the people who have been caring for me.

Sorry not trying to beat a dead horse here but validation is very important and so often misunderstood. I'm reading a lot of great comments on it here and hope a lot of people pop in and read it all!

Originally Posted by dillydaf

OK, so validating as far as I can see is demonstrating using words that you understand someone else's feelings and accept them. Not that you agree with them, not that you take blame, not that you act defensive or argue with them and not that you tell them they have got the wrong interpretation, not that you push the Fixit button. Because their feelings are their feelings and they are entitled to them just as we are entitled to our own feelings. And having someone else understand your feelings is nice, especially if you feel like you're aggrieved and misunderstood, as our spouses have done for years (and as we probably have done too, let's be honest, but we are being the bigger person here and accepting that their feelings are valid first despite their horrible behaviour).

So an unhealthy relationship is one where both people are blaming each other and not understanding how the other person feels. In order to stop that negative cycle at least one of you has to change that. And if you show someone you understand their feelings then it makes it harder for them to blame you, because part of the reason they're blaming might be that they feel misunderstood.

If you're both busy self-validating then where is the relationship? I agree that you need to understand your own feelings and accept them, and preferably not act on them if they tell you to do stupid and impulsive things! But sharing your internal world to some extent is what builds intimacy isn't it? And at some stage your spouse will have to jump on the validation bandwagon in terms of you being able to share your feelings with them and have them understand them and not be defensive blah blah blah (but you will have done this in a non-blamey healthy way), but for now one person has to get that bandwagon moving.

Well, that is my take, hopefully I'm along the right lines! I need to practice a lot more, I've been in defensive, fixing mode for so long it's difficult to step back and take a different approach.

Yes that is really fantastic Dilly!

Originally Posted by LB55

W: You drink a gallon of rum every week!(regardless of whether you do, she FEELS you drink too much)
H: No, I only drink half a gallon each week! (This says W, you are wrong and I dismiss your feelings)
Alternative:
H: I understand that you think I drink too much. Thank you for sharing your feelings with me. ( acknowledges her feelings without agreeing; validation). Perhaps take it a step further with some action...go to an AA meeting, make a promise you can keep. If you won�t stop drinking, don�t promise that.

Hope that makes some sense. I�m still very new to this concept, but I feel like I�ve got the lightbulb going on more frequently.

The purpose of validation is to seek out feelings, and then validate those feelings. So using the above example:

W: You drink a gallon of rum every week!

That's actually not an expression of feelings. So first you should seek out the feelings- "I hear you saying you think I drink too much, does that make you angry?"

This type of statement invites her to share her feelings, she may be angry or something else, you don't know but you are opening the door for her to describe her feelings.

"I don't know, I guess I'm just frustrated because it seems like you ignore me when you're drinking."

So this is an example of why understanding feelings are important, because she's really frustrated about being -ignored- which she identifies with the drinking. It could be unrelated, like maybe you just like to decompress after work with a drink and zone out for a while. So you could go to AA and quit rum and drink Coke instead, BUT THE PROBLEM WOULD STILL BE THERE! Right? You're still decompressing and ignoring her (even though it's not on purpose) and making her frustrated because the rum wasn't actually the real problem. Does that make sense? So a validating response might be "I am sorry I was making you feel frustrated, that must have been difficult for you. I will work on this." Then you could maybe invite her to decompress with you, or let her know "honey I am going to take a few minutes to decompress in the living room, I'm not ignoring you, just trying to recenter a bit. If you need anything just let me know." If it's a daily routine then now and then you might say "Thank you for giving me some quiet time to decompress, I love that you are so respectful of my needs." This is crossing over into love languages but the point is communication is usually what is lacking in these situations, and better communication is usually the ultimate resolution.

This makes sense to me. Thank you. I remember having a bit of a conversation on my thread a few weeks ago about how to validate anger without sitting there and absorbing verbal abuse. I couldn't really understand but this makes it much clearer.

I�m glad this is happening. It�s good for this group to discuss this at length. It will help us all in the end!

There is no concern about hijacking my thread for it either.

Forgot to mention that W also texted me that �I really liked the listening conversation� and �let�s sit down in chairs next time instead of standing in the driveway�. I agreed with both statements. Progress is nice to see. Small steps.

She asked for a code word that either of us can have to say when we are feeling too emotional to hear each other�s words and end the conversation without reprisal or hard feelings. I think this is acceptable so long as the road goes both ways and the conversation can resume at a later time and date. Thoughts?

Originally Posted by LB55

Forgot to mention that W also texted me that �I really liked the listening conversation� and �let�s sit down in chairs next time instead of standing in the driveway�. I agreed with both statements. Progress is nice to see. Small steps.

Awesome! DB'ing is all about baby steps!

Quote

She asked for a code word that either of us can have to say when we are feeling too emotional to hear each other�s words and end the conversation without reprisal or hard feelings. I think this is acceptable so long as the road goes both ways and the conversation can resume at a later time and date. Thoughts?

That's kind of an odd request. Is she in IC? Maybe it's something her IC suggested. I don't see the harm but if you stick to that quality validating then neither of you should ever need to use it.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander

Originally Posted by LB55

Forgot to mention that W also texted me that �I really liked the listening conversation� and �let�s sit down in chairs next time instead of standing in the driveway�. I agreed with both statements. Progress is nice to see. Small steps.

Awesome! DB'ing is all about baby steps!

Quote

She asked for a code word that either of us can have to say when we are feeling too emotional to hear each other�s words and end the conversation without reprisal or hard feelings. I think this is acceptable so long as the road goes both ways and the conversation can resume at a later time and date. Thoughts?

That's kind of an odd request. Is she in IC? Maybe it's something her IC suggested. I don't see the harm but if you stick to that quality validating then neither of you should ever need to use it.

She tells me she is in IC. I have no reason to doubt it. Perhaps her IC suggested it; hard to say.

I�ll keep doing my thing, and like you say, we shouldn�t need to use it.

I see it as a way for her to have her suggestion heard, used, and increase her ownership of the process for something that really doesn�t hurt me in any way or increase my responsibility in the situation. This could increase her trust and that�s a big deal right now.

The cat is paying attention to me, have to build trust without scaring it away.

I'm loving all the info on this thread, really helpful about the rum drinking AS!

The code word sounds like a great idea, but I would build in some sort of ground rule about coming back to the conversation later, maybe with a timeline to it. A big problem in my M has been stuff being swept aside and ignored. It's very sensible to say when one of you is triggered, because talking then is fairly pointless, but the issue still needs to be addressed when you're both calm again. I really regret some of our conversations where I just kept pushing stuff in hope of some sort of resolution and my H just shut down. In return, I tend to run away when I get triggered and that's also not very helpful particularly when my H is sensitive to abandonment. I would like to institute some sort of idea like this with my H when we get on firmer ground.

Venting

Today is a tough day for no particular reason. I am just emotionally upset today and I just want to go scream at someone. W didn't do anything or say anything, this is just me being upset. Roller coaster ride. Haven't been this way in a few weeks, and don't know what triggered it.

I hate this process.

Want it to be over and done with. Sick of feeling like a hostage.

Recovery is not linear! Recovering from DB, S and D is very much like grief recovery, such as the death of a loved one. There are 7 stages (Google "stages of grief recovery" for more info) and we go through them all, but not in a particular order and not on a particular timeline. We may go through each one and be done or bounce back and forth between the stages multiple times. It helps to recognize that it is normal though, and that while it is unpleasant it will pass!

So I get home from work to this message:

I need you to take 10 days of leave from work to watch the kids while I take a business trip in July. I will let you know the days after this weekend. Thanks

I�m not burning my leave to help her out? What is she thinking? I have the leave, previously I would have taken it to help her out; you know, like when I wasn�t fired. She can figure something out. I�d love to have the kids for 10 days, but not under hers terms when she benefits.

She doesn�t want me to have extra kid time unless it benefits her. ARGH!!!

I am going to reply with something to the effect of:

W, I understand that you need me to take leave in order for you to go on the business trip. I do not want to take my leave for that purpose. As your H I would have done this every time; however since I�ve been fired from that role I do not want to use my leave to serve your needs. Thank you, H

Good; bad; otherwise? I do not want to take leave to babysit, I don�t want this to set any precedent for that going forward, and I don�t want to upset the apple cart.

She wouldn�t offer 10 days with the kids to me if I asked; this is strictly to meet her needs of babysitting without having to burden her family and friends for 10 days. I�m not her babysitter, and I certainly don�t want to spend 33% of my leave days to meet her timeline.

Looking for any inputs on the leave situation, owe her a response by tonight. Thanks!

Why not just tell her that you will be unable to take leave in July for this? She knows she fired you as her H so what is the point explaining it to her? IMHO less words the better.

A simple:

"That doesn't work for me, I have other plans for my leave. You will need to make alternate arrangements."

Do not get into the whole "if I was your H......" That makes you look small and petty. Trust me, she will get the difference between being a married couple arranging things vs. D'd parents making arrangements without you having to connect the dots for her.

Yes LB, like MLC and Steve say. Right and simple to the point. Then validate if you need to, but stand your ground.

ok thanks all, I understand, exactly what I was looking for.

Don't want to be petty or childish.

One of her complaints was that I wasn't able to take leave regularly during our marriage, so this is a bit of a test that also meets her needs. I would love to have the kids, I would take leave to make sure they are taken care of, I have the leave to take, I just don't want to take it during her prescribed time. This is her responsibility and she needs to find a way to get them taken care of. Not here to rescue her nor to set a precedent for rescuing going forward.

She sent me the bill for rental house maintenance that we had agreed to split from marital funds. Asked if I was still good with selling some mutual funds to pay for it; oh and could I address this today, as we will get late fees tomorrow. I simply replied that I am good with her selling mutual funds to pay for it. She will be in for a life lesson in waiting until the last minute when she finds out it will take 3-5 business days to get the funds from the sale. I am no longer going to be responsible for 'we need to do this'; in the past I have always done those things, she needs to understand that she is a part of 'we' when she says that. The financial penalty is worth the cost of the lesson.

I agree with MLC, Steve and Neffer. Just be very brief and don't offer explanations. Steve's suggested response is on target. No anger or resentment or anything, just plain and matter-of-fact. Then if she sends a nastygram, offer some validation like Neffer said, but also make it clear to her you will not tolerate disrespectful comments from her (if it comes to that). I think now you know why she's been nicer lately, she knew she was going to need something from you.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander

I think now you know why she's been nicer lately, she knew she was going to need something from you.

Perhaps, I am always on guard and alert to try and sniff that stuff out. She may get nasty when I say no, if so I will simply tell her that the conversation is over due to disrespectful behavior and we can resume a different day.

She may accept it at face value or actually offer something better in the long run for me. I haven't shown my cards or burned my bridges with this yet, so I will let her fold or go all in first.

Originally Posted by LB55

I need you to take 10 days of leave from work to watch the kids while I take a business trip in July. I will let you know the days after this weekend. Thanks

I like Steves reply.

Another option: Don't take leave but take the parenting responsibility. Make arrangements for the kids while you work and then spend events nights with them. Not sure if you have family close. My dad spent lots of time with my kids during my parenting time while I worked. My Mom also helped out. (my parents are divorced). Other sitters?

W initiated a text conversation about things in the past a couple days ago. Lots of feelings and hurt and blah blah blah. I validated mostly and didn�t tell her much of how I felt or am feeling.

She said she feels guilty and never wanted to hurt me. That sounds like a bunch of hogwash to me but it�s her feelings. I didn�t do anything with that comment.

It�s good to be chatting a little, there was even some flirty comments for a bit there before it delved has into her feelings. I had some oral surgery and she was joking about my diet and dessert and I poked back about stuff and it was just a little fun. I know that there isn�t anything to take from it, it was still fun interacting with my friend for a bit.

She is still talking about finishing the D. She hasn't done anything to move that direction in months. Says there is no other way out, blah, blah, blah. She noticed my changes and that will be good for my next relationship, I am a good catch, won�t be single long. Same old crap. So nothing has really changed for her, other than a willingness to talk at least. She is starting to reveal some of the stress of being a single parent, homeowner, startup entrepreneur, and divorcing mom all at the same time. How much work it is doing all the stuff around the house; validated but offered no help.

Hasn�t asked me about taking leave again nor did she give me the dates of her business trip. Beginning to think it�s just a ploy to see if I would jump when she asked me to. More to follow.

I did actually touch her tonight when I picked up the kids. She put her hand up for a high five and I returned it. That�s the first time we�ve touched in nearly 9 months. Again nothing taken away from it, just noting it for now.

Great, all handled quite well LB! When she talks about how you'll be a great find for someone else, don't argue or say you are waiting for her or anything like that. Just nod knowingly, with maybe a little mischief in your eyes

So today is 6 months from when I was served D papers when I got off the airport shuttle at 10pm. It was 28 degrees outside. I had flown in from San Diego, she had said she and the kids would meet me at the shuttle drop off. Obviously that was a lie as a courier met me there and gave me a stack of paperwork. I was devastated; it was four days before Christmas, had been gone for a year with the military and all I wanted was to come home. Instead I got a restraining order that said I could never go home.

I had no place to live, a backpack of old shirts and socks(she claimed this was her being compassionate and providing what I needed to get by with), and a key to my vehicle. I had a court date in 7 days. No L answered the phone for 5 of those days because it was Christmas. I was allowed by the paperwork to see the kids under the supervision of her parents at her parents house for 2 hours on one day(not Christmas or Christmas eve). They treated me like a dog; I was required to sit on the floor in a corner of the living room in order to see the kids. After that the only contact I had with the kids was a weekly phone call for 30 minutes for over 5 weeks. I seriously felt like a prisoner.

It was the lowest I have ever been in my life.

Fast forward 6 months, things are better but not great, I have a place to live, we have temporary orders in place that aren't my favorite but are ok in the short term. I've decided to stop fighting with her, continue working on my communication skills, and do what I can for the kids. It is my belief that fighting happens when one party isn't listening to the other. So I work on that. My communication skills, awareness of other peoples feelings and emotions, and validation ability has improved dramatically. I focus on listening to people, not getting distracted, and actually hearing what they say. I am still quite hurt by the situation, but I don't focus as much energy on thinking about it anymore, it just isn't worth it. I have some regular nights out with guys from work, I do things on weekends when I don't have the kids, i do things with the kids when we are together.

It occurred to me the other day; I can't recall the last time W apologized to me. For anything. Not just since BD or D filing; I can't recall her EVER doing it. I'm sure it has happened in 15 years. Its not a regular occurrence though. Most disagreements we had somehow resulted in me apologizing for things I didn't even do in order to get her to stop attacking me. It resulted in me never having my own opinion without first figuring out what her opinion was(this is total NGS), and I lost myself in the process.

In summary, things are ok with me right now. I still haven't been inside my own home. I still have a desire to R at some point; she isn't even close on that front as far as I can tell. She has a long ways to go before that could happen. Still no action from her to stop blaming others for her problems, no action to take responsibility for her decisions(everyone else makes her do things), and no visible progress on her emotional issues from her childhood. She hasn't done anything to proceed with D. I waffle on whether I want to push it or not. One day I want it done, another I want to keep the path open without finishing the D. At this point she is still my W. God will make happen what needs to happen.

You know people don�t always come here to post when they�ve had a good day. So I�m going to.

Nothing special about today. Was just a good day. Went to work at 5, got off at 5. We got some things done, I had to force people to stay late to get done what I asked, that is the way the military works. Made me feel good; not because they were frustrated, but because I was able to set that boundary and enforce it. I�ve been struggling at work with all that is going on so that is a good sign for me.

Got off work, came home and changed out of my uniform. Went to the first rules meeting for our football referee group in prep for the HS season upcoming. It was good to see some of the guys again that I haven�t seen in 2 years and get our noses into some new rules and complicated old ones.

Was a sunny day, cool but pleasant outside.

I ruminated on my situation. But not in a �why is this happening to me way�. I role played in the truck with myself on how to respond firmly when W tries to sweep this under the rug and wants me back(my gut feel is right more often than not and this is how she will likely do it; try and get me to apologize and she will take me back...no no no missy, not how that works anymore for LB). Not until she does some work, apologizes, and shows me actions that show remorse. I have a bright future with or without her. It felt good to set a boundary and say no for my own sanity. Even if it was just role playing the situation.

A good day.

I'm glad you had a good day, LB, and I hope you have many more of them. I just read your back story and all I can say is wow, you must be a pretty amazing person to be able to have forgiveness for the way your W treated you. And to recover from that shows a great deal of strength.

That's awesome LB! Keep up the PMA!

Originally Posted by dillydaf

I'm glad you had a good day, LB, and I hope you have many more of them. I just read your back story and all I can say is wow, you must be a pretty amazing person to be able to have forgiveness for the way your W treated you. And to recover from that shows a great deal of strength.

Thanks!

I didn't have forgiveness for a long time. You know why? Because I felt like this was all my fault and I couldn't forgive myself. She blamed me for everything. I tried to fix everything. I was never good enough. I was a failure in all respects. If one is a failure all of the time, its not even possible to strive to success, because you will just fail anyway so why try.

Forgiveness isn't for her, its for me. I have forgiven her, and me, because its healthy for me.

I am choosing at this time to not tell her I forgive her. Its not relevant. She wants to hear that to relieve her guilt.

From a recent conversation:
H: I think the false thinking here is that I am happier because of D. I am happier because I am asking for what I want, getting what I want, and being a man in charge of my own needs.
W: I am glad to hear that D is making you happier. It is making me happier too. I was feeling guilty for hurting you but am glad to know that I have spurred you on to better things.

This type of interaction shows me she is not ready to discuss much; she is still reading and hearing her own narrative. This was a text conversation, so its not like she didn't hear me correctly when I said D is not making me happier. She read and interpreted it as she wants to in order to fit her narrative. I can't change that; she must decide to. She isn't ready to listen so I am not comfortable talking to her about R stuff at this time.

Every time I pick up the kids or drop them off, after the business and kids stuff, she asks me if there is anything else I want to talk about. There is the pregnant pause and a somewhat expectant look that I should start a R talk. She wants me to start apologizing, groveling, pleading, and begging so she can squash me, re-live my failures and lay the blame on my shoulders, and humiliate me again to feel justified. I just reply 'nope' and get in the truck and leave. If she asks me a specific question and I can tell she is willing to listen and actually wants to hear what I have to say then I will proceed cautiously with that specific topic. No R talks until then; and even then it will be a cautious wade into the water for me.

Had the kids this weekend, was overall a good weekend. We watched movies, I made dinner each night, we rode bikes, played catch, played video games, went swimming at the lake, baked some cookies, etc.

I sprained my ankle pretty bad on Saturday, jumping for a high throw from S11 and landed on the edge of a concrete curb. Hurt pretty bad, I'm still sore today, but its ok.

Figured out that I don't have any swimming shorts anymore, need to go buy some. Gonna go to the waterpark with them next time we are together.

The kids are always a bit sullen on Sunday night partly because they are tired, and partly because I suspect they don't want to go back. I did ask them what was on their mind, D8 told me she wishes we could just do a week at my place and a week at moms and stop with all the weekends stuff. I told her I hope we can get there but that isn't possible at the moment. I am debating whether I should tell W that, as when I last broached the subject of 50/50 she told me the kids don't want that arrangement. I suspect she won't want to hear it so I am leaning towards not telling her.

They both at different times throughout the weekend told me various things, while it was nice that they are getting to where they can open up just a bit, it is also heartbreaking. D8 told me while making cookies that mom does all the baking and doesn't want her to help and doesn't teach her anything like I do. S11 told me that he got his haircut with grandpa(her dad) because mom doesn't have time for things like that. They spent 3 days and nights at her parents house last week; S11 told me he gets to play video games for 12 hours a day there because grandpa is busy watching TV. They both told me there are no plans for the upcoming holiday weekend. The 4th was a big holiday for me, the whole neighborhood came over, we did fireworks in the yard, had a big BBQ, etc. Now there is nothing. I really want to tell her that the kids think she is dumping them and not paying enough attention to them, but I am unsure if that is appropriate or will just start another fight. She is still very defensive on anything the could be construed as a weakness within her.

I sent the kids home with the cookies we made.

Then I get a text at 0520 this morning(W is never up at that time): Thanks for the cookies! I hope your ankle is feeling better! We didn't make the cookies for her, im not upset that she enjoys them, I had no expectations for her to appreciate them or miss me or anything, they were just for the kids to take home and enjoy(and for me to not gain weight eating them!!) There is nothing in there that requires a response so I'm not going to reply. Its just an odd occurrence. I don't think she believes me that I go to work at 5am and get home at 6pm and is checking to see if I reply when I say I'm at work(I don't have my phone at work due to security and she knows it).

Originally Posted by LB55

From a recent conversation:
H: I think the false thinking here is that I am happier because of D. I am happier because I am asking for what I want, getting what I want, and being a man in charge of my own needs.
W: I am glad to hear that D is making you happier. It is making me happier too. I was feeling guilty for hurting you but am glad to know that I have spurred you on to better things.

Ha! Well she could be just hearing what she wants to hear, but there's also the possibility that re-steering the convo was completely intentional on her part. Your W is a mean, angry and vindictive WAS and while she has dialed it back from 10 to 9 it is still a 9 so keep that in mind. Just avoid conversations like this altogether. You didn't post what came before this but it sounds like you let her bait you into an R talk. Don't be baited!

Yeah I don't recall for sure how we got there; I think it was her saying she noted I was happier these days. There wasn't anything significant before or after that I can recall, just one of those things that happened during a text conversation and was on my mind that day.

Baiting is for fishing.

Still a 9...yep she is still pretty hot. :-)

Originally Posted by AnotherStander

Great, all handled quite well LB! When she talks about how you'll be a great find for someone else, don't argue or say you are waiting for her or anything like that. Just nod knowingly, with maybe a little mischief in your eyes

Why do they do that? My exW used to say similar things on how I would find someone else that was great. When I think back, she started saying this during what I think was the denial stage and said it a lot leading up to the D. Funny thing is that once I regained some of my respect from her she has not been talking this way.

Originally Posted by LB55

So today is 6 months from when I was served D papers when I got off the airport shuttle at 10pm. It was 28 degrees outside. I had flown in from San Diego, she had said she and the kids would meet me at the shuttle drop off. Obviously that was a lie as a courier met me there and gave me a stack of paperwork. I was devastated; it was four days before Christmas, had been gone for a year with the military and all I wanted was to come home. Instead I got a restraining order that said I could never go home.

I had no place to live, a backpack of old shirts and socks(she claimed this was her being compassionate and providing what I needed to get by with), and a key to my vehicle. I had a court date in 7 days. No L answered the phone for 5 of those days because it was Christmas. I was allowed by the paperwork to see the kids under the supervision of her parents at her parents house for 2 hours on one day(not Christmas or Christmas eve). They treated me like a dog; I was required to sit on the floor in a corner of the living room in order to see the kids. After that the only contact I had with the kids was a weekly phone call for 30 minutes for over 5 weeks. I seriously felt like a prisoner.

It was the lowest I have ever been in my life.

This is really rough, so sorry you had to go through with this. Also, thank you for your service to our country. People like you deserve better and it is sad when the people you love and trust the most do something like this. As they say they are taken over by some alien monster and not the people we used to know

Originally Posted by MLCxH

Why do they do that? My exW used to say similar things on how I would find someone else that was great. When I think back, she started saying this during what I think was the denial stage and said it a lot leading up to the D. Funny thing is that once I regained some of my respect from her she has not been talking this way.

Trying to let us down softly to ease their guilt that is deep down inside is my vote. I have been thinking if she had just said I want a divorce, lets get this done, I would have so much more respect for her than the path of deceit and lies that she chose. I have little respect for her as a person, W, or mom at this moment in time. I know there is potential for that to return, but that is directly related to the actions I need to see from her. The ones that are non-existent right now.

Next time she says that I am going to agree wholeheartedly. Do my little one sided smile and walk away.

Originally Posted by MLCxH

This is really rough, so sorry you had to go through with this. Also, thank you for your service to our country. People like you deserve better and it is sad when the people you love and trust the most do something like this. As they say they are taken over by some alien monster and not the people we used to know

Thanks it is a tough life.We almost made it too. 21 years of service next month. Almost 16 together, almost 13 M. We had it made; two rental homes that would be paid off, a primary home that was super nice, an income of nearly $8k/month before either of us got out of bed in the morning, and plans to support the kids, travel a lot and show the kids the world while they are old enough to understand a bit more but young enough to see the fun in it too.

Down the toilet right now. I knew something was amiss when I left for the year, and by april she had all new friends(I had never met ANY of them), all her old friends left her high and dry, and then the time for me started dwindling slowly. We talked via email or phone every day. By October it was about once a week. Always too busy. By November it was 'I have something to tell you but not over the phone, don't talk to me anymore', then it was go home at Christmas to the D paperwork.
Very much a frustrating situation for all. Oh well, got to move forward!

Going out for my normal Monday night burger and shuffleboard with the guys from work. I look forward to Monday every single week! How many people say that???

Wow. Reading some of your sit, LB.

From a fellow service member- thank you for your service.

And I'm so sorry you had to go through all that [censored]. Not cool.

Stay strong

LB: it seems like my H's walking away was mostly triggered by thoughts of his impending early retirement in a couple of years time, it's almost like things were looking TOO good and the future was going to be full of (good) change so they blew everything up to sabotage things looking positive. Does that make sense? Sometimes it seems to be a pattern is what I'm thinking. Like you save and plan and look forward to a bright future and then when it's about to happen someone panics and destroys it all. I might be rambling here. Love the idea of your regular Monday shuffleboard and I think you're right about the guilt, your W has a LOT to feel guilty about to be fair

Originally Posted by dillydaf

LB: it seems like my H's walking away was mostly triggered by thoughts of his impending early retirement in a couple of years time, it's almost like things were looking TOO good and the future was going to be full of (good) change so they blew everything up to sabotage things looking positive. Does that make sense? Sometimes it seems to be a pattern is what I'm thinking. Like you save and plan and look forward to a bright future and then when it's about to happen someone panics and destroys it all. I might be rambling here. Love the idea of your regular Monday shuffleboard and I think you're right about the guilt, your W has a LOT to feel guilty about to be fair

Yeah I don't know, certainly a plausible scenario dilly. She did tell me that my plan for our future was me working in the garage with her standing there handing me tools. I'm not sure how she concocted this idea because she rarely helps me do any of the work on the vehicles or anything. Once in a while I asked her to help for 5 minutes with something but she clearly felt that what I was asking for demanded all of her time doing something she didn't want to do.

She is trying to start a business now, and took out $58K from our accounts a couple days before filing for divorce and transferred it to her business. She is on a 10 day trip to some country in Africa now. She has a big need to have people tell her how important she is and needs to be in control to appear to everyone as having her whole act together. The few people who know differently she doesn't interact with to avoid reality.

So previously my kids had always spent a week with my parents each summer, sometimes 2 weeks. W said she wants that to continue and could I ask them when they are available. I did, gave her a date range that works for them(its like 6 straight weeks; pick one). Told her to let me know what works for her, and that I would schedule it, but she will have to communicate with them for pickup and dropoff as it is during her time with the kids. This was all via email because she doesn't like talking in person very often.

W: You want me to communicate with your parents?
H: Yes.
W: That doesn't sound like a good idea, i don't get along with your parents and im not sure what your parents know about our situation.
H: Sorry you feel that way, you will have to communicate with them to set up the details.
W: It seems like our written communication isn't working very well, can we sit down and talk about this to clear up the confusion?
H: Yes

So she likes email and text unless she doesn't get her way. Written communication isn't working because it isn't what she wanted to hear. She won't get a different answer in person, however it will be a chance for me to validate and listen to her concerns without fixing her problems.

I am not doing this to punish her, but I am not her rescuer from her own problems either. If I had the kids 12/14 days I would expect to have to coordinate with her parents to see the kids in the same manner.

Additionally, she is out of town on her Africa trip, the kids are staying with her parents. I am picking them up tonight and on Friday night, and the expectation from W is that I coordinate with her mom to schedule the times to pickup and dropoff the kids.

she is scared of them because they know the truth. This is my opinion. She is laden with guilt over how she has handled this and doesn't want to face the music. I will tell my parents that they are not to attack her, defend me, or talk with her outside of scheduling pickup times about the kids. This is just a consequence of her choice and she needs to grow up and deal with it.

Wow LB, she sounds pretty similar to my H. Guilty at such scummy, immoral behaviour, wanting to look important and in control to outsiders. No wonder they avoid us since we know the truth about them! That sounds like a good thing to say to your parents.

For a little GAL motivation for all you NGs out there, I invited 3 friends out for beer and wings tonight. None of them could go. You know where I am? At the pub having beer and wings. Not gonna sit my butt at home doing nothing. Get out there folks and do something.

Originally Posted by LB55

For a little GAL motivation for all you NGs out there, I invited 3 friends out for beer and wings tonight. None of them could go. You know where I am? At the pub having beer and wings. Not gonna sit my butt at home doing nothing. Get out there folks and do something.

You da man! Enjoy.

I love the mango habanero at buffalo wild wings...sweet and crazy hot ...I keep a bottle in the fridge

Originally Posted by Ready2Change

I love the mango habanero at buffalo wild wings...sweet and crazy hot ...I keep a bottle in the fridge

I get the sweet and hot thing, im a bit more sriracha-teriyaki in my taste though. Super hot gets me coming and going and it just isn't what works for me!

I definitely caught the eye of a couple ladies while I was there. I wasn't trying; just sitting at the bar watching the game across from 3 single ladies and some other folks. Was the only seat open when i arrived, so i sat in it. I was just observing others interactions, enjoying my wings, and texting with my sister(she just found out she is pregnant). One desperate dude that tried to hit on a woman while her boyfriend was getting another beer. Crashed and burned when the BF came back. Told some lame joke about mickey mouse. It made me wonder what my competition is since I haven't been in the dating pool in 17 years.

I admit it was strange to go out by myself. Not something I would have ever done before. I was a bit nervous, but I said to myself I was going to get wings, and I forced myself to follow through with what I wanted to do. I think that is a good step for me, to simply declare that I want something and go get it or do it. Not doing all things because someone else wants to or because I think someone else wants to; but because I want to do it.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change

Originally Posted by LB55

For a little GAL motivation for all you NGs out there, I invited 3 friends out for beer and wings tonight. None of them could go. You know where I am? At the pub having beer and wings. Not gonna sit my butt at home doing nothing. Get out there folks and do something.

You da man! Enjoy.

I love the mango habanero at buffalo wild wings...sweet and crazy hot ...I keep a bottle in the fridge

Had that with a co worker a few months back. Pretty good. I'm a Hooters Fire Alarm guy myself ;-)

LB55 Since I don't have many friends. Going out alone and dining alone has never been a problem for me. Used to pick up girls easier by myself instead of with company. Less pressure. But that was 13 years ago. Everyone in the PUA community likes to throw around that "social proof" b.s. Sometimes it would undermine my confidence, and sometimes it wouldn't. 3 or 4 months ago it took a bit of adjustment to go out alone again. Its no problem, but it feels like you are caught between 2 places and 2 people.

Journaling a bit,

We are now 3.5 months since the temporary orders were drawn up. There hasn't been much communication about anything besides kids during that time. Ive waffled a bit on pushing the D through or waiting on her to do it. I think ive settled on waiting for her to get it done. Not sure why, it just seems like the right thing since its not what I want.

She hasn't mentioned the word divorce in 2 months or so, I often wonder if that is because she is comfortable or because she is trying to decide what she wants as she sees me having healthy interactions with the kids and not needing her for anything.

As I look back on a few different things, a lot of discussion on the friend zone has been happening on the board. I think I un-knowingly shut down her attempt to put me in the friend zone a couple months ago. She has her BFF that is divorced and living in a waterfront home from alimony income, and the BFF is always complaining about her EXH and blah blah blah. W tried to get my thoughts on it, and I said that I am not willing to discuss BFF problems with her EXH. She then did it again, in a different way, but same topic, and I again said I wasn't willing to discuss her friend's issues as I am not privy to the details. She acted kind of hurt that I didn't want to gossip about her friend's EXH, but that is something that someone in the friend zone would do, and I shut it down. Didn't know it at the time, just kind of hit me today, so I wrote about it.

I haven't heard a word about BFF since, and the kids haven't mentioned playing with her kid in quite a while. I have proof that BFF was pushing her to divorce me. I saw the books she was providing her(the receipts from amazon from years past were used as bookmarks so I know where the books came from) about narcissism, alcoholism, emotional abuse, divorcing a narcissist, etc. W told me she hired her L based on the BFF telling her he would do anything and say anything to win. I wonder if that friendship is slowing dying due to the toxic dynamic that must exist between two people when one is actively encouraging the other to destroy the family and F the husband over. Hard to say. I don't expend a lot of effort thinking about it, just something that made me go hmmmm the other day.

Kids told me they are sick of the weekend thing and just want one week here and one week there. I haven't told her this yet, she won't be in favor of it and will likely accuse me of manipulating the kids to say that. She won't make it in the house without child support. If we were even split there wouldn't be any child support and she would be forced to move and we would have to sell the home...or better yet I would take the home because I can afford it and she would be forced to move. I still like the house, and there is no way I could afford a similar one with the way real estate has escalated recently in the area. Bought for $400k 5 years ago and could sell for $600k now.

Well onward with life. Got the kids for dinner tonight, blackened chicken ceasar salad...oh yeah!

LB55 - Just wanted to check in on your thread and say hello. You have no idea how much you helped me last week get through a very intense flashpoint with my W.

You are doing a fantastic job by the way. Just watching your kids, doing your thing, staying out of the friend zone. My W had that same "divorce a narcissist" book (Splitting?). It must be very disarming for her to see you just going about life. At some point the book disappeared from my house, I don't know why. And I don't care.

Maybe your kids will tell her themselves what they want. It is frustrating isn't it? It will play right into the splitting accusations. You just can't win, all you can do is refuse to play like you are doing.

What is your current custody arrangement, and are you planning that to be final for the D? If you want 50/50, I would suggest you fight for that now - otherwise you may have a 2nd expensive and draining court battle later.

Enjoy that salad it sounds delicious.

Thanks U, glad to have something positive come of all this. We are here to help each other in the best way we each know how.

Kids decided they wanted chicken fettuccine Alfredo instead. So just a quick shift in menu but I love to make their favorites. I know they aren�t getting them at home because they tell me what W cooks for them. Noodles with butter on them. Pillsbury canned biscuits with pizza sauce and cheese on them. I guess she is trying.

I�d like a 50-50 agreement on custody. Right now in temp orders I�m on every other weekend with one weeknight. It works ok. Unfortunately my military obligations make a 50/50 deal untenable for the kids. They would have to get up at 4 to go to a sitter and then I�d get home at 6. That�s not a good life for them. My time is done in 20 months so taking lots of time in the D is helping me get closer to being able to argue intelligently for that.

If I had one thing for you I�d say be patient. I can see my exact cycles in your situation. 4 monthss ago. Be patient. Work on yourself. Go back and read my stuff. 3 months ago I was full steam ahead to get this crap over with. I�m glad I resigned myself in, my R with the kids has really grown and it�s giving everyone time to decide what they really want. So don�t burn bridges. I haven�t yet and I�m happy for that. I burn bridges in the car. It prevents me from saying dumb stuff when I�m in person.

U, You�ve made a lot of progress, keep up the work. You were a tornado of despair just a few months ago. I remember. Keep your head up and keep working towards your goals.

By the way my kids are singing along with Johnny Cash Ring of Fire. My kids are cool.

Originally Posted by IHCLACS

I'm a Hooters Fire Alarm guy myself ;-)

I didn't know they had wings

Hey LB

Thanks for dropping in on my sit the other day. You really helped me change my perspective, I was going down the foxhole and you helped pull me outta there - just wanted you to know that.

Slowly making my way through your threads. Great community here - one of the few places I've been/seen that reminds me of my time in the military years ago - everyone has everyone's back. Pretty cool stuff.

Take care, man

Originally Posted by LB55

For a little GAL motivation for all you NGs out there, I invited 3 friends out for beer and wings tonight. None of them could go. You know where I am? At the pub having beer and wings. Not gonna sit my butt at home doing nothing. Get out there folks and do something.

Same here. When I would go out alone I had women approach me and start conversations. It was great for my mental state.

Originally Posted by IronWill

Hey LB

Thanks for dropping in on my sit the other day. You really helped me change my perspective, I was going down the foxhole and you helped pull me outta there - just wanted you to know that.

Slowly making my way through your threads. Great community here - one of the few places I've been/seen that reminds me of my time in the military years ago - everyone has everyone's back. Pretty cool stuff.

Take care, man

Glad to pull you back brother. I keep shaking my head in amazement that the situations on here can all be different, with different folks, and yet be exactly the same script, time after time.

I haven't had any contact with W in over 2 weeks. I am going to have to this week to arrange to see the kids; it has been really nice not worrying about dealing with her. Oh well, its Monday, might as well get all the garbage out of the way today.

Originally Posted by ovrrnbw

Originally Posted by LB55

For a little GAL motivation for all you NGs out there, I invited 3 friends out for beer and wings tonight. None of them could go. You know where I am? At the pub having beer and wings. Not gonna sit my butt at home doing nothing. Get out there folks and do something.

Same here. When I would go out alone I had women approach me and start conversations. It was great for my mental state.

I haven't had that happen yet, it probably will eventually. I don't go out alone much, this was my first time. I mostly feel too tired to go out; just seems like perpetual exhaustion. Keeping up at work and then just taking care of a house and cooking and eating and all that, plus spending my days off with the kids equals exhaustion.

Doesn't help that my REM sleep cycle is from 3-6am but I get up at 430 every day. I can't wait to have a job that I can get up at 6am instead. Maybe one that pays me overtime when I work 14 hour days also. Yeah that would be nice.

Guys, What am I doing wRoNg?! I've gone to BWWW twice by myself and no women approach me!

I enjoy eating out by myself, people-watching, getting out of the house.

I consciously try to initiate more conversations with people when I'm out -- it's helped a lot with detachment, I highly recommend it. I've been walking by a lake near my house after work and started talking to some of the people fishing, already learned about the best spots, what bait to use, what they catch, etc.

Ive been hit or miss on the conversation starters, been making a slow effort to talk to strangers though. Its something I rarely did in the past.

People watching has always amused me; these days I observe way more than I used to. Used to just superficially look at their clothes or their hair or whatever; now I watch their motions, their expressions, their behaviors, etc. Its been interesting to say the least.

Something I always struggled with was catching the subtle signs a woman is interested. In watching people when I am out and about ive started being able to pick up some of those signs when watching them interact with others. Casual touching, hair fiddling, using the chapstick every 15 minutes, leaning closer even though the guy is plenty loud, etc. Its also easy to see the disinterest when it exists, and you just want to go tell the poor guy to go bark up another tree and stop buying drinks. Ultimately you don't though because its not your business; doesn't mean I cant learn from observing though!

Originally Posted by LB55

In watching people when I am out and about ive started being able to pick up some of those signs when watching them interact with others. Casual touching, hair fiddling, using the chapstick every 15 minutes, leaning closer even though the guy is plenty loud, etc. Its also easy to see the disinterest when it exists, and you just want to go tell the poor guy to go bark up another tree and stop buying drinks. Ultimately you don't though because its not your business; doesn't mean I cant learn from observing though!

Amazing isn't it. Just paying attention.

Learn to not avert your eyes from women. They are checking out guys all the time with side glances. It is fun catching them checking me out...

Originally Posted by Ready2Change

Learn to not avert your eyes from women. They are checking out guys all the time with side glances. It is fun catching them checking me out...

I'm only at the point where I recognize I do this, however that means I can focus on getting better at it in the future.

It is fun when I hang on for that extra half second, I'd like to get to where I win the staring contest once in a while.

Originally Posted by LB55

It is fun when I hang on for that extra half second, I'd like to get to where I win the staring contest once in a while.

It is the mans job to win. The longer she holds, the more she is interested. She looks away first.....wait...she will look back. Game on.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change

Originally Posted by LB55

It is fun when I hang on for that extra half second, I'd like to get to where I win the staring contest once in a while.

It is the mans job to win. The longer she holds, the more she is interested. She looks away first.....wait...she will look back. Game on.

Why do you think I want to win??

I'm practicing at work on people, gender is not relevant. Just working to show dominance by making eye contact until they look away. I catch myself regularly still glancing down so im not good at it yet.

So W is back from her boondoggle to Africa. She is sick with some mysterious virus that dehydrates you when you drink water. WTF??? That makes no sense. Part of me thinks she has an STD.

I told her my plan for the kids, to take them camping this weekend; she immediately agreed and then began telling me how to watch out for various illnesses in the kids and so forth. I said thanks, please remember I am a capable parent too.

Then she starts in again on the kids visiting my parents for a week. How its a willing gift from her and she doesn't have to ever allow them to see them ever again and so forth. This makes me so mad and my family will be so hurt. She isn't willing to let the kids spend time with my parents anymore because I am a jerk and want her to coordinate the transfer since it is on her day with the kids. I work from 0500-1900 most days. She wants me to drive 4 hours each way overnight to drop them off and to pick them up. So basically I would get up at 4, work 14 hours, drive 4 hours, drop them off around midnight and drive 4 hours to get home at 4 am to shave, shower, and put my uniform on and go back to work. I just cant do it. She doesn't work and stays at home.

She is using the kids against me here and it feels terrible. Either I do things her way or the kids don't get to see their grandparents again. How do I deal with that? The lawyers and courts won't do anything about it. Grandparents have no rights in my state to ever see their grandkids.

In sorry about the grandparents rights lb55. My parents had to fight for it and got it with my nieces and XSIL. They are 22 and 19 now. My state did away with them as of recently too. Its a shame when x spouses weapons children against their parents and grandparents.

Hi LB,

Any reasons your parents can't drive down, spend the night then leave? Meet you part way?

I'm going to find a way to make it work. It is important for the kids to see my family. Not sure on the logistics yet but I will find a way.

Been away for a bit, went camping with the kids last weekend for 4 days. Man that was nice to be out of touch and just living in the moment. Was a nice revelation and break for me. Just the tent, me, the kids, and the ocean. The noise of the ocean is very steadying and relaxing.

Not much else to report. Still doing my thing on a week to week basis. Working on eating healthy foods(I don't need to lose weight, it just feels good). The only thing I drink is water except Monday night out with the guys I have a couple beers. Going salmon fishing for 9 days in august, that is going to be a good time.

LB - Sorry you are going through that.

To be clear, though, is this a grandparents' rights issue, or just your W being really really stubborn and refusing to compromise?

Hope you can make the logistics work, that is really frustrating.

I thought grandparents' rights would come up in a situation where, say, I don't let my parents see my kids (which... I actually don't right now, which is a whole other story...) and then the grandparents' have to petition the court for visitation, etc.

There is no such thing as grandparents rights in my state. W could prevent them from ever seeing the kids again and they would have no recourse.

This is an issue of W stating she wants the kids to spend time with them, but will not work with them to pick up, drop off, nor transport the kids, even though the dates of the visit begin and end on her parental days. If I don't arrange it for them, she won't help in any way. It is quite frustrating but not unexpected.

Just to make sure it follows the WW double standard crazy train...I am however expected to coordinate kid pick up and drop off with her parents when it is my time with them and she has dumped them off at her parents house.

Boy these WW are crazy. She sends me an email earlier today that says she isnt comfortable communicating or being around me because I�m very threatening and she is scared.

When I pick up the kids tonight she comes out and brings me a fruit basket, wants to talk about kids bedroom furniture, and wants to talk for 10-15 minutes tomorrow after work.

She still has ahold of me and it�s frustrating. I haven�t detached nearly enough. Some nights I find her vile and disgusting to even look at. Then others like tonight she is the most beautiful woman I�ve ever seen. So many emotions I have. Just one of those days.

My sister and her H are going through some issues now and she wants to lean on me for support. I�m trying but it�s hard because I�m not done with my own issues. Doing my best to help her but not get involved. They aren�t as serious as most of our issues yet, but I can see it going that way if they don�t learn to communicate better. Her H is a good guy and a good dad. She is a good gal and a good mom. After having been here for a while I can see in her language to me she is frustrated and hurting a bit; he is having a tough time with employment since moving a couple years ago. She supports the household and cooks, cleans, etc...so I�m working to pass my knowledge on before it gets worse for them but not actually get involved. Also difficult.

Originally Posted by LB55

W could prevent them from ever seeing the kids again

Not during your parenting time.

Originally Posted by LB55

Just the tent, me, the kids, and the ocean.

I never camped by the ocean. Not many oceans here in Colorado. One for the bucket list.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change

Originally Posted by LB55

W could prevent them from ever seeing the kids again

Not during your parenting time.

Yes that is true. She can however prevent them from seeing the kids for the couple of weeks they have typically spent together each summer. She doesn't want the kids to see my family as far as i can tell. She has hated my family for many years, including 8 years ago when my D8 was born, my parents weren't allowed to see her for nearly 3 months because W threated a restraining order if they came to visit. I was deployed in 2011 and they finally saw my kids once I came home from deployment; my mom only recently told me this.

I only have every other weekend at this point and that can't change for at least another 1.5 years due to my military service. She isn't on board with the every other weekend plan either, she is only willing to let them visit me for the weekend because she is afraid of being in contempt of court. She has told me in the past that she will fight for me to never see them again because it is what is best for the kids.

At this point she will have done nothing to progress the D by summer 2021, so that plays to my advantage in getting a 50/50 parenting plan ordered by the court. Once i don't have to work from 0500-1900 it will be easier to sell an argument for this. She will never agree to 50/50 because it takes away her child support money which she needs to maintain her lifestyle for everyone to see.

New Thread:

New Thread