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A Real MessAfternoon everyone
I'm not sure how to add my prior thread to this new one. I guess I'm supposed to have a graduation party now?
I do have some advice to seek though.
I have been DBing so hard that today I got a question I was completely unprepared for.
With tears in her eyes, she asked,"ARE YOU HAVING AN AFFAIR OR AN EMOTIONAL AFFAIR WITH ANYONE?"
I suppose I know why she asked but I was still surprised that she did. I asked why she thought so. She said because I had been distant, doing my own things, on social media or on my phone alot AND it seemed like it would be something I could do considering the circumstances.
I reacted how I thought I should. I am married to you. I am faithful to you. My position about divorce hasn't changed. I won't stop you if that's the direction you are heading, but I have not changed mine.
Anyone get this response???????
Sounds like mind reading and projection from her side. I'm sure others are going to chime in here, but I wouldn't be a sure thing to her. I would have answered that with some ambiguity. The others here advocate saying " My life is already complicated why would I need another woman to make it even more complicated?" If your wife is cheating on you how do you think she would answer? Probably with have truths, ambiguity, and mystery.
Mine went away to her niece's bday in PA. I miss my son like crazy. Before they left Sat and just returned 10 minutes ago as I was leaving to GAL. She said to me "Enjoy your solitude, and try not to burn the house down." So I replied: I'll be sure to order up a couple of hookers, some cocaine and a keg. " so she replied "Just make sure that they're cute ones."
First thing she asked me upon coming home was "How were the hookers?" I said "Which ones? Monique, Unique, or Bambi?" I said that they were pretty good they even clean the place up for me. Kissed my son goodbye and went out to GAL. I miss him so bad I want to spend some time with him today but I need to get out of the house.
Man I was just so excited I didn't turn it around on her or get emotionally crazy. So I considered it a win.
I restated my position, but will continue to detach which is how she got there in the first place.
But alas, I need to focus on myself, not her reactions. Can't count on her - but I can count on me getting stronger. Whatever comes I will be ready. Better.
si13
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Just wanted to check again (read up a couple posts), has your WW accused you of having an A when you started DBing?
Is this a good sign or merely projecting what she did (or would do or has done).
I suppose I know why she asked but I was still surprised that she did. I asked why she thought so. She said because I had been distant, doing my own things, on social media or on my phone alot AND it seemed like it would be something I could do considering the circumstances.
I reacted how I thought I should. I am married to you. I am faithful to you. My position about divorce hasn't changed. I won't stop you if that's the direction you are heading, but I have not changed mine.
Here is what just transpired:
Wife: (through tears) Are you still my Plan B? I'm getting worried that you're not! Boohoo!
You: Oh yes indeed I am still Plan B now and forever!! You do whatever you want and I will always remain your faithful Plan B!
DON'T BE PLAN B. This would have been a better response:
"W, I can see why you might think that but I am not seeing anyone at this time."
Period, end of story. You're not seeing anyone today. Tomorrow? Who knows. What this statement says is you are living your life at the pace you choose. You are not waiting around for her, but for now the timing isn't right for you to see others. IT'S YOUR CHOICE.
I wouldn't be a sure thing to her. I would have answered that with some ambiguity.
Exactly.
It's a point well taken AnotherStander - lesson learned for sure.
What do y'all think about getting the house ready to sell but not saying that's what you're doing???
I have slowly begun to landscape, paint, etc at our house because, well, that's what she indicated she wanted from our M - that it was over.
If that's true, then I want to get the best home value we can, because we can't keep the house.
Having another tough day today. On the days I see her respond to DB of course it's easier, but on days where she asks if I'm going out (like she's ok with me gone) or she isn't wearing her wedding ring, I feel run over by a truck.
Thoughts on getting the house ready to sell as a DB?
si, actions.....not words.
Her: "Wow, the house is looking good, are you trying to sell it?"
You: "You never know, I thought I'd be prepared for every potential outcome."
Her: "Were you going to tell me? BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH."
You: Listen, validate. But then you are busy have to go.
REALLY struggling tonight as there seems to be no end in sight. Wife is going along with the DBs to some degree. Doesn't mind me doing my own thing. She temperature checks ALOT, asking if I'm ok, or maybe why my answers are so short.
Resentment is creeping in and all the while I miss her to death. I miss my friend, my partner.
Lonely AF but still maintaining the integrity as if my kids were watching my every move (which they are).
Not sure what to do about certain things: W wants to spend quite a bit of weekends together as a family - going places, going to church, even talked about going to a Texas Rangers game. Even then talked about a trip to California this summer all of us to see family WTF
She wants to play family but doesn't want to be married. That's called cake eating, and you shouldn't let her do it...
Resentment is creeping in and all the while I miss her to death. I miss my friend, my partner.
I hear you, it's painful, it's terrible to go through! We all went through it or are going through it- wondering what in the world happened to the loving spouse we thought would be there forever. But take it from me and others here that have been down this road and have had a few years to reflect on it- she's gone. The person she is now is not the person you fell in love with and spent all those years with. I know that's difficult to hear but the sooner you accept it the easier it will be for you to give her the time and space she needs. It is quite literally like an alien has removed your old W from her body and substituted another person in there. She may look like your old W, and sometimes act like her, but it's not her. Like most of us did, you are clinging to the notion that your W is still in there somewhere and if you push the right button she will pop back out and all will be normal. But it won't happen that way. You've got many months or (more likely) years of work ahead over which you may slowly build a new R with this new person. You've got to be exceedingly patient for that to happen.
Not sure what to do about certain things: W wants to spend quite a bit of weekends together as a family - going places, going to church, even talked about going to a Texas Rangers game. Even then talked about a trip to California this summer all of us to see family WTF
Like mtb said she wants to cake-eat and play family when it suits her. You can go along with it if you want, but none of it really means anything to her, her attitude is "I'll keep doing this until something better comes along."
Not sure what to do about certain things: W wants to spend quite a bit of weekends together as a family - going places, going to church, even talked about going to a Texas Rangers game. Even then talked about a trip to California this summer all of us to see family WTF
Like mtb said she wants to cake-eat and play family when it suits her. You can go along with it if you want, but none of it really means anything to her, her attitude is "I'll keep doing this until something better comes along."
Yep. Been there done that. My exWW told me for a month that she thought it was best if she moved out. She kept delaying and delaying. Used the excuse that she was going to wait until after Christmas. Which probably was the right choice, I suppose. However, I was tired of playing house and family with her. It was hard as hell for me to detach for my own good. It felt like we were just delaying the inevitable. I finally told her in the middle of December that I was tired of playing house. She, of course, used that against me down the road. Blame shifting and all of that. Which is fine. I don't regret my decision to tell her that. I had hung on long enough, for me, without any noticeable change of heart or progress from her. It felt like nothing was going to change the outcome, so I ripped the bandaid off. She probably resents me for it, but in the end, it was her decisions that got us to where we are, D. I know that and deep down she probably does too, although she won't ever take full responsibility. I wonder if part of the resentment and blame shifting comes from her not getting to cake eat. I put my foot down and it wasn't on her timeline. I don't care, though. D wasn't in my timeline either when all this [censored] happened.
Yeah, so let the 2x4s begin. Maybe I've got too much hope. Maybe I'm too focused on her. I'll confess it's all those things. I want her back.
Overwhelmed by grief today. I don't want this dream to die. I confess I've been too dependent on her, her love, her affection. And since she took it away 18 months ago, I've been a mess.
I've only just started DBing. She doesn't seem to mind. She gets all the space she wants. Doesn't get asked about her phone or what she's doing all day.
I haven't been able to catch a glimpse of the good life yet. Owning the strength and individuality I can have in looking forward.
I thought it would be easier having her in the house to get her reaction to DB, but it's harder than I thought.
Sitting at dinner each night faking it with the kids at the table. Going out after the kids go to bed to basically grieve - not enjoying myself yet.
I don't really see her making an effort to land the big job yet, well, because she has everything she needs at our home.
Gutted, confused, sad. I can't remember not looking forward to weekends but here I am.
We all go see a movie with the kids tomorrow.
I got her a gift card for getting her nails done for Mother's Day, and a card from the kids this year. First time I haven't gotten something for her to prove my love - to gush about how I feel about her. It's just empty this year.
si13,
I’m new to this but I struggle with the hope and dependence and just wanting her back too.
Lately what helps me is to frame it like this:
- For our M to survive, I need to change. I cannot be co-dependent, focused on her, living my life worried about her. We cannot be happy as a couple if I do not change, if I cannot be happy on my own.
- incidentally these same skills will be necessary for me to endure a S or D and enjoy the rest of my life.
No matter what the outcome of your M, you have to be able to be happy and content on your own.
I am by no means anywhere near achieving any of this, but I recognize my complacency over the years, letting my co-dependency lead the way, adding more emotional burden to my W while I stood idly by, was a major culprit in the erosion of our M.
Unchien I sincerely appreciate those words. You're absolutely right. I have never been the kind of man I want to be, and my M has never been interdependent, but codependent.
I know ultimately I will be ok and actually better than ok. But I need to start realizing that now.
I feel great physically, I have fears of the kids being very hurt (ours are the same ages BTW).
It's really a matter of me GAL - and really owning that life and NOT worrying about she's doing.
Praying for you my friend.
My thoughts go out to you also, si13.
I try to find positivity and happiness in little things, small improvements, things I didn't notice before. It creates a nice little positive feedback loop which has kickstarted me feeling better about myself the last week or so.
Examples:
* When I watch my kids alone now, I am so much calmer and relaxed. Before (and even now to some extent), I would try to do what my W wanted me to do. But on my own, I am calm. I discipline calmly, I feel more connected to them on my own.
* In the process of dealing with this, I reached out to a few long-lost friends. It feels good to reconnect. It feels good to know these people, who in some cases I haven't spoken to in years, are so supportive. They do not blindly go along with me, they challenge me, but in a kind way. It feels good to know I have good instincts, to surround myself with good people, that my friends are there for me in tough times, even though in my codependency I tended to distance myself from friends.
* I asked my boss for less work and more flex time. Partly to help my M, partly because I know I will need it soon expecting to be a single dad. I just up and did it. It felt good to stand up for myself and what I needed.
* I took the initiative to fix some things around the house without asking W. In the past, I felt I needed her permission. Now I'm just doing those things. It feels good, and whether she is angry or happy, I am content either way.
* I think about the future. A month ago, I thought I would be a single dad in a crappy run-down apartment seeing his kids 2 days a month. Now? Yeah, my kids are young, I'm likely to have an every-other-weekend kind of arrangement. Guess what? I'll have free time to go see friends, take on a new hobby, go do some things I want to do. Would I rather be happily married? ABSOLUTELY. But not to the W I see today. I am unhappy in this limbo, in this friendship M with no affection, no concern about me.
Yeah, so let the 2x4s begin. Maybe I've got too much hope. Maybe I'm too focused on her. I'll confess it's all those things. I want her back.
Overwhelmed by grief today. I don't want this dream to die. I confess I've been too dependent on her, her love, her affection. And since she took it away 18 months ago, I've been a mess.
I've only just started DBing. She doesn't seem to mind. She gets all the space she wants. Doesn't get asked about her phone or what she's doing all day.
I haven't been able to catch a glimpse of the good life yet. Owning the strength and individuality I can have in looking forward.
I thought it would be easier having her in the house to get her reaction to DB, but it's harder than I thought.
Sitting at dinner each night faking it with the kids at the table. Going out after the kids go to bed to basically grieve - not enjoying myself yet.
I don't really see her making an effort to land the big job yet, well, because she has everything she needs at our home.
Gutted, confused, sad. I can't remember not looking forward to weekends but here I am.
We all go see a movie with the kids tomorrow.
I got her a gift card for getting her nails done for Mother's Day, and a card from the kids this year. First time I haven't gotten something for her to prove my love - to gush about how I feel about her. It's just empty this year.
This post really hit me because it sums up very well how I've been feeling as well, and I've been at it a bit longer than you. But I'm not enjoying anything yet and I absolutely hate living almost entirely separate lives under the same roof for now, with no positive interaction at all, and feeling sure she's enjoying her separate life a lot more than I'm enjoying mine.
Hang in there. It takes a lot of time.
Didn't know that Mother's Day would hold so many interesting dynamics. What an wild weekend!!!!
I made sure that my wife felt very celebrated (by my kids) but I left a very pursuing element out of the equation this year. I did get her a gift (from the kids), I did sign the card but it was very neutral.
We had some conversations this weekend that led me to believe that my W is somewhere in between WAW and MLC.
There was one point in our time when I mentioned her 39th birthday in conversation. She mumbled something about her 30s being gone and what did she have to show, a waste, etc. I usually tried to rescue and reassure her with something like this, but I didn't say anything in return.
We had a pretty heated conversation on Sunday night in which I could have done a better job being direct with a request to help with the kids dinner. I think in some ways she feels like reparations are due to her because of my "abuse" but we are 18 months into that repair already. I was feeling pretty resentful this weekend as she just got to do not much of anything.
This at point got us to what is she trying to accomplish right now - she told me 3 weeks ago she wants a D but won't be going anywhere until she has the "perfect" job. I expressed that I wasn't really satisfied with that.
We somehow got around to whether her heart was open to reconciling. She basically said she wanted to find her voice, louder than mine, louder than her parents, louder than any influence. I remained quiet, but validated. At no point did I try and convince we could do it or how there have been changes. Matter of fact our kids kind of came in to the room so I said we should talk later - THIS IS SOMETHING I'VE NEVER DONE AS I WANTED TO GET AN ANSWER THAT SHE'LL STAY.
In a roundabout way she said she was unsure what she wanted, couldn't guarantee any outcome and didn't want expectation.
I suppose this is better than going forward with D plans, and to some degree I can see the DBing is creating a much different atmosphere.
She couldn't believe that I didn't tell her that I had lunch with my cousin on Friday (random thing), but she seemed shocked I didn't tell her right away. She then asked, does this mean I can go out to lunch and not tell you about it? I replied, totally ok with me.
The space has given me time to heal a lot more. Time to catch my breath and not so caught up in what she is doing.
It is pretty clear to me she is still really confused - I know she talked to her parents on Sunday which is the first time in 3 weeks. She was on the phone for probably an hour so i'm assuming they know the scoop now. And if I know them they likely cautioned her on her plans of uncertainty, which is probably why she mentioned their opinion in wanting to hear their voice.
Good day all. Stay close to your faith.
THIS IS SOMETHING I'VE NEVER DONE AS I WANTED TO GET AN ANSWER THAT SHE'LL STAY.
In a roundabout way she said she was unsure what she wanted, couldn't guarantee any outcome and didn't want expectation.
In a nutshell this is the difference in the LBH and the WW's mindset. It has not even occurred to her that you aren't biting your nails wondering if she'll stay or leave. And the pitiful thing is....she's right........or are you changing that perception?
WW's are very arrogant. It's all about
her (in her opinion) and until you show her differently, she won't ever change.
You are really focused on her and what she is doing. She is running around a hamster wheel in your brain.
Stop all relationship talks. You need to work on detaching. She is taking up way too much of your mental bandwidth during the day. Time to focus on yourself.
Stop worrying about what she is doing. Stop wondering what she thinks about when you do things.
Shorten up those conversations.
THIS IS SOMETHING I'VE NEVER DONE AS I WANTED TO GET AN ANSWER THAT SHE'LL STAY.
In a roundabout way she said she was unsure what she wanted, couldn't guarantee any outcome and didn't want expectation.
In a nutshell this is the difference in the LBH and the WW's mindset. It has not even occurred to her that you aren't biting your nails wondering if she'll stay or leave. And the pitiful thing is....she's right........or are you changing that perception?
WW's are very arrogant. It's all about
her (in her opinion) and until you show her differently, she won't ever change.
Sandi - I don't think this felt more true than this morning. Here I have 20 minutes to get ready for work and I feel like I get put to work at home getting stuff for the kids when she gets up too late.
Then when she tells me she works today, she'll need help with the dinner. But the truth is she gets off work to pick up the kids at 2pm and then 3pm but I don't get home until 530pm. Not sure what help she's thinking I'll be at 530pm when she is ALREADY HOME.
I need to re-engage these DBs and get my mind off what SHE is doing and do for myself. I have gotten distracted by what little progress I think I'm seeing on the weekends.
Then when she tells me she works today, she'll need help with the dinner. But the truth is she gets off work to pick up the kids at 2pm and then 3pm but I don't get home until 530pm. Not sure what help she's thinking I'll be at 530pm when she is ALREADY HOME.
I still have doubts about the abuse issues. It just doesn't chime with her behavior. But whatever..........if you meekly fall into a pattern where you are afraid to speak up or disagree with her b/c she'll claim you are controlling......join the club of the other LBH's who have a WW. IMHO, your W appears to be taking advantage of this entire situation. If she thinks she has you by the b@lls, b/c of her abuse claim, then in fact.......she does. So, you have to figure out how to reclaim your b@lls without being emotionally abusive. As for the controlling accusations, IDK........b/c most WW's accuse their H of controlling. It doesn't mean it's true. If you are controlling, we'll probably see it show up in some of your posts and will point it out.
If she has ruled the roost for a considerable amount of time, then she feels a sense of entitlement and expects you to do follow her orders. Yes, they are orders! She may word it in such a way that it doesn't sound as if she is commanding, but the reality is......she gives the orders and expects you to follow. Do you DARE disobey?
IDK about your W, but some W's enter the M as selfish and spoiled girls, b/c their parents raised them to feel they were special and they never had to do house work or such. This makes it more difficult on a H who is a nice guy and wants to do his share to help with the children and house chores, b/c her sense of entitlement will surface and he will succumb in order to "keep the peace". The longer this scenario continues, the harder it may be for the H to gain a sense of control over his life. He feels he must be available for her bidding.......or he has hell to pay.
When the W is dishing out orders to her H and he obediently follows, she will eventually lose respect for him. Although she may feel a sense of entitlement, it is her female nature to desire a man who leads. When a W is wayward, the ONLY thing she will respect is strength. Therefore, if she can lead her H around by the nose, she doesn't see him in an attractive role. Perhaps you don't see your W going to that extent of leading you around by the nose. Maybe it's more like she's just taking advantage of you. Whatever.........you get the same results, which is disrespect.
I don't know your personality types, but you might be able to kind of call her out by just smiling and say something like, "Oh I have all confidence in your ability to pick up the kids and prepare dinner in a three and half hours time". Then you move on and don't get into a discussion. This is the part that many H's miss. They get sucked into the W's lashings b/c they stick around for her reaction to his remark.
What would happen if you didn't go home immediately after work? Has that
ever happened? I'm not suggesting it, I'm just curious.
I don't want to see you get into a tit-for-tat game with your W, where both of you are trying to pay back the other one for one for something you don't like that they did.
I think your W knows exactly what she's doing. She knows you are trying to improve yourself by working through some personal issues. She knows you want to save the M, and you're walking on egg shells in order to not do anything that hints of you controlling or emotionally abusing. That gives a WW a lot of power! Don't think for a minute she won't take advantage of it. She knows you are in IC and that your issues are linked to her. She isn't trying to help you......she's using it to her advantage. As much as your IC may encourage you to do this & that in your MR.........
you are dealing with a WW. That puts you in an entirely different ball park. If your IC doesn't understand the mindset of the WW, then you will be receiving conflicting advice if the IC tries to relate it to your interactions with WW.
You have already lost your W, so let go of that fear. That marriage is over, and the two of you are simply going through the motions. You don't have to file for D, but you need to mentally/emotionally let her go. Once you let go of her, you'll be able to find the man you want to be. You have to become a good man before you can be a good husband.
**joyfully hit by 2/4** thank you Sandi.
What you said hit me straight between the eyes. I have felt for a long time now that the tables have turned and now I am the one who is responding to covert tactics - she does know exactly what she's doing and I have to walk on eggshells not to upset her as she knows I'm trying to salvage the M and keep the peace.
But I need to dig deep and do as you say.
She has ruled the roost from the moment she took the intimacy away 18 months ago (and then gave it away by PA for 9 months and EA for 6 months concurrently). It appears she is out of those now, I can't see anything suspicious and quite frankly I'm exhausted from being suspicious, snooping AND focusing on her.
I need to get to tactfully practice my responses "I have all the confidence that you can prepare dinner in the 3 hours". But I am keenly aware of my own propensity to be sarcastic and recovering from being belittling. This I can admit.
She is poking the h*** out of me with passive-aggressive jabs lately. Mentioning things "in jest" that she knows have bothered me, joking about certain things around the kids, trying to play house like we have a fun relationship still.
Long story short, I need to emotionally and mentally get myself doing this for me, myself, my sanity, my confidence.
she does know exactly what she's doing and I have to walk on eggshells not to upset her as she knows I'm trying to salvage the M and keep the peace.
Maybe she should wonder if you want to salvage the M. Whenever a spouse is taken for granted, ............well, you know better than anyone how it feels, right? She is truly taking you and the M for granted, and that is why she doesn't respect you and why she is not working on the MR.
She has ruled the roost from the moment she took the intimacy away 18 months ago
The spouse who least desires the intimacy is the one who controls.
I need to get to tactfully practice my responses "I have all the confidence that you can prepare dinner in the 3 hours". But I am keenly aware of my own propensity to be sarcastic and recovering from being belittling. This I can admit.
I'm the same way. But you know, when she says something that is so obvious about her intentions.......why should you care if your response has a sarcastic ring? I mean, she's taking advantage and controlling you, and I think you should let her know you're not playing along. If you can say it with some humor, then more power to you. (Maybe I'm having an off day.)
She is poking the h*** out of me with passive-aggressive jabs lately. Mentioning things "in jest" that she knows have bothered me, joking about certain things around the kids, trying to play house like we have a fun relationship still.
Okay, let's talk about this. First of all, she KNOWS she's poking you, but it goes further than just poking. You need to recognize this behavior for what it really is. This a common show of disrespect that a W does in front of others. She says it in front of the children, which makes it even more disrespectful toward her H. She is pretty sure he is not going to confront her about it in front of the kids. She says it in a passive-aggressive way, and expects the H to simply ignore any action, but both of them know she's poking. She may say it in sort of a joking, but not really funny way. So in case the H should complain, she'll accuse him of not being able to take a joke. But she knows better than anyone she is putting him down in front of his own children. So........what is the best way of handling this? I'm probably not the one to give that answer. (ha) I simply don't believe in allowing the W to get by with that display of disrespect. The longer the H doesn't address it, the worse she'll get. I don't mean he should do it in front of the kids, but he should confront her about it. Let her know it is not funny and it is disrespectful and it needs to stop. I think he should have something in mind for what he will do if she doesn't cooperate. If she's done this for a long time, she is going to test you to see what you'll do.
Some posters may tell you to not let her bother you. Well, there are some things you can let run off your back and ignore, and some things you can't. IMHO, anything that indicates disrespect should be nipped in the bud, and not allowed to continue. Some things you can turn around, and some you can't. Since I'm not there and can't hear it, you will have to decide what you see as disrespect. I don't like the "poking" just to get a rise out of you. That's her daring you, to see how just how far she can carry things. Another form of verbal disrespect. I think some H's with NGS try to tell themselves to just ignore it, and even tell each other that same advice.........but I can't go along with it when she's putting her H down, no matter if it's in a form of a "joke" or whatever. It's still disrespect.
What you
can let run off your back is her whining, having pity parties, giving the silent treatment or cold shoulder. But not a show of disrespect. Make sense?
Here's the thing that really gets next to me about LBH's with NGS. They think that saving the M means they have to silently take whatever poop the W throws on them. Nothing could be farther from reality. If she is wayward, the first thing he has to do is
command respect. If he can't have her respect, then they will never have a happy MR. That's the bottom line, b/c she can't desire him and feel disrespect for him. Women are designed where their "in love" feelings are tied to their level of adoration. If not from some physical problem, then rest assured that whenever a W stops being intimate with her H, it's b/c she doesn't adore him as a man. Can it be restored? Yes, in cases where the W is cooperative.
How old are your kids?
Sandi. Thank you SOOOOOOOO much for all the feedback. I appreciate it so much as I know you have been in the WW shoes and what you're saying makes SO. MUCH. SENSE.
I have not been acting to gain respect but willing to acquiesce to her because I want the M!!
But I see now why that makes sense to stop. When I don't engage her "silliness" as she likes to call it because of course its ALL in jest, she'll ask if I'm mad or why I'm being short. I'm simply not engaging. Lots of temperature checking as you can imagine when I don't play along.
I have stopped bringing her coffee in the mornings which she is WAY curious as to why. I haven't directly answered. She asked this morning if it was because I was making a stand.
I haven't been GAL enough, we usually retire in our MBR to watch a show together before bed. I work a long day, work out at the gym during lunch and then am pretty beat by the time we get the kids to bed.
To answer your question, we have 3 young kids ages D8, S7 and S5. They LOVE us and because of the silliness and engagement at dinner and praying as a family before bed, they are pretty oblivious that we aren't on track.
Again, I'm SO appreciative for you feedback. I'm trying to find new ways to self-discover, I joined a meet-up group yesterday for outdoor activities in our area. I'm not going to date through this process. While I'm lonely as h***, I never want to tell my kids that Daddy did this when Mommy gave up. I see that as integrity. I will stand by my wife until it is final spiritually and lawfully.
I am definitely becoming the man I wish that I was years ago for sure. Not with shame (at least not as heavily as I once did), but I know that I'm a catch. Getting more confident of this day-by-day.
By the way what is NGS?
NGS = Nice Guy Syndrome
Check out "No More Mr. Nice Guy". Your sitch resonates with mine in several ways - I can almost guarantee this book will help you.
But I see now why that makes sense to stop. When I don't engage her "silliness" as she likes to call it because of course its ALL in jest, she'll ask if I'm mad or why I'm being short. I'm simply not engaging. Lots of temperature checking as you can imagine when I don't play along.
It's one thing to have fun, act silly, or joke. But it's another thing when this behavior comes at someone else's expense. Now stay balanced in what I'm trying to say here. People need to have a "good nature" and not get bent out shape if something funny is said. However, if that something is a statement belittling, demeaning, the butt of a joke, or a passive-aggressive remark by the spouse.......then it is verbal disrespect, and I don't care how many laughs it gets from others.
Have you ever approached her with a serious face and say, "Look, I don't like it. I feel disrespected and I want it to stop". If she says she is just playing with you or being silly, tell her again that you see it as being disrespectful and you want her to stop.
I am assuming that you don't give the same treatment. If you've tried to show her how it feels, then I suggest you stop, b/c you won't win. Frankly, some couples get into a very bad habit of putting each other down (especially in front of others) in the form of "joking"........but it's more like making them the butt of the joke. The recipient feels he has to laugh along with those who are laughing at him, or be accused of being a bad sport. However, his W is poking fun at him in front of his kids, his friends, family, etc. It is not a funny situation. It is a form of showing him disrespect. I doubt he wants to ravish her with lovemaking when she is making her jabs and belittling him. He knows in his gut it is not attractive, and she knows it, too. She may try to play dumb if he confronts her, but once he tells her to stop.......she should never do it again.
Let me be perfectly plain with you about how important it is for a W to show respect for her H. If he cannot command respect, then he might as well get a D and be done with it. His MR will never be what he truly desires. She'll never feel desire for him as a man, b/c she can't when she feels disrespect for him. Women are different from men in this regard. Therefore, the H can do everything he hears suggested to try in winning back his W's affection and favor, but nothing will succeed until she sees him as a man she truly respects. When she starts to really respect him, her adoration and desire grows for him. That's the secret ingredient that many couples seem to miss. I've studied MR's for years, and read all the little tricks in how to have a more passionate relationship, but I can tell you that none of it works when the woman has no respect in the man. Before you can become a wonderful husband and have a great MR, you have to become a man she respects.
This is why I have a problem with men catering to b'thcy and spoiled WW's, in the name of "saving their M". If she should decide to stay with him (b/c he is simply plan B), it's going to be hell for him, if he doesn't require change in her. He will always be answering to
her, b/c she will always be the one calling the shots, b/c he's too scared of losing her. Men say they don't want to lose their children, yada, yada, yada. I'm not completely cold hearted and I can understand not wanting to lose your family. These days, most fathers have at least 50/50 custody. So, I think men have to decide if they want a happier future with their kids 50%, or live in a disrespected atmosphere where misery abounds.......plus take a chance of losing their children's respect in them as a man, as well.
This may sound as if I'm here promoting divorce. I'm here promoting respect in family relationships. I am trying to tell men that their W cannot have loving feelings for him without first respecting him. Why should any man live out his life with someone who not only doesn't love him and wants to be with only him......but finds contempt for him as a man? That's no way to live life, IMHO. So, that's why I encourage you to focus on her showing respectful behavior. She may not feel it right now, but that is b/c you have not required it. Once she has to conduct herself in a respectful manner, then she is more likely to start actually feeling it. But it's up to you to require it, and it's up to her to cooperate. If she chooses to not cooperate and continues to openly disrespects you, then I think you need to seriously reconsider where you want to go with this relationship. When you have a WW, it takes a lot of tough love to gain her respect. What you've been doing, doesn't cut it.
I never want to tell my kids that Daddy did this when Mommy gave up. I see that as integrity. I will stand by my wife until it is final spiritually and lawfully.
Not sure what you mean by "this", unless you are referring to a divorce. I suppose people have their views about integrity, and if they live by their religious beliefs, then I have to respect for them for it.........if they are truly doing it out of religious conviction, and not using the religion as their excuse to put up with waywardness.
While speaking about how the WW disrespects her H in front of others, I think it is especially damaging to how children. It affects their view of their father, when mom is making him the butt of her silliness, and making passive-aggressive jabs. Kids pick up on the clues of disrespect from mom, and they begin to see daddy through the same lens as their mom has taught them to do. I've read so many posts from soft guys who silently hope & pray that their kids will see how their father wasn't the one who threw in the marriage towel and put up with the disrespect for the children's sake. However, when the kids grow up under their mother's disrespect for their father, that influence can affect the kids and how
they respect him, too. Fathers are a role model for their sons. So, when the son grows up and gets M, he will follow the pattern he saw in the father........which was to cow-down to the mother. The son will find himself in the same unhappy MR that dad lived out his life. Is it really worth telling the son that you weren't the one who gave up? How does that help the father or his son? I don't think it will be much comfort for the son to find out that dad stayed under the thumb of a wayward W and chose to do nothing about it. IMHO, it's better to teach a child to have self respect and how to command it from those in a relationship, rather than show how you succumb to the bully wife on a daily basis. Children need to have a least one positive role model to know how to deal with their future relationships. I'm just saying that you can't have a loving intimate relationship with a wife without her respect.
Daughters are affected by her role model, as well. She will expect to rule the roost while her H quietly accepts whatever behavior she chooses to display.......if that's what she saw her own father doing while she was a child. So, yeah, there is a lot of responsibility put on parents to be the healthy role models. I've been on the board for a long time, and I have seen lots of LBH's comfort one another (or guilt one another?) by saying they want to be able to look their kids in the eyes and tell them they did everything in their power to save the M. My question is, what good does that do if all the kids saw was a rebellious & resentful WW who constantly showed them that their father was not a man to be respected under his own roof by his own family? What good comes from the father telling them that it wasn't his fault that the M failed? Will that make a man feel satisfied or justified to live in decades of disrespectful misery, while watching how negatively it affects his children?
Look, I'm not saying kids don't suffer the fallout of their parent's divorce. I'm just saying that I see no purpose in staying in a untrustworthy and disrespectful MR just so you can one day tell your kids that it was the WW's fault for giving up. Is he trying to look like the better person to his kid....... just b/c he stuck around and tolerated the actions of a WW and did nothing to gain respect? To me, it shows a lack of his own self respect. But.....everyone to their own opinion, and this is just my own. To be clear, my family has suffered divorce from more than one wayward spouse. I've seen the results of abuse, infidelity, etc. In each case, it started with a lack of disrespect on the part of a spouse......including my own waywardness. I know the road back from that state of waywardness.....and it starts with willingness & cooperation from the wayward partner. FWIW, I hate divorce, but there have been some cases where I've seen that it was necessary to separate/divorce from an unhealthy relationship when the other spouse refused to cooperate in healing the MR.
Sorry for rambling on & on.
Sandi. This is all pure gold. I really appreciate it.
This is shifting gears a bit but wondered what your take was if I discover there is another A. I know it doesn't change anything (although it kills my desire to pursue her anymore).
How do I communicate that I know?
W took another shot at me this morning. Please help me identify why this rubs me the wrong way.
I was getting ready to go to work and take the 2 older kids to school.
My W before I was getting ready to walk out the door motions for me to come close to her. I haven't been giving her hugs, telling her ILY or anything when I leave, just have a good day. Even last night when I went out, she was frustrated I wasn't giving her ANY details of where I was. I told her just out for a drive. "For 2 hours?" Yes. You're being elusive she said.
This morning when she had me come close, she told me there was a boy that gave my daughter a love note. I replied oh boy. My D8 is only in 2nd grade so I'm not loading my shotgun just yet.
But as I was walking out, my W says, "like the kind of note you used to write to me."
WTF??????
It rubs you the wrong way because........you let it.
Detachment is not going through the motions, though practice does make perfect. Fake it until you make it. But you need to let this stuff run off your back like water off a duck. Work on not letting it affect you emotionally.
The friendly cashier method helps with this. Imagine your W, when you interact with her, is like the friendly cashier at the store. If the friendly cashier said the same thing to you, you'd chuckle........(or maybe think she was a little nuts) but once you walked away you wouldn't give it another moment's thought. Treat your W like the friendly cashier...and put as much stock into her words as you would the friendly cashier.
Doesn't seem like a shot.
You are engulfed in your sitch. It takes time and work to detach. When you detach you can see more clearly. Keep working.
Yeah, DBing is tough. Fake it till you make it is causing me to just stuff all this s*** down and I've had it.
Now I'm wanting a separation, especially since I think she's at least involved in an EA again.
I'm done in this toxic, fake, pretend, let's all just be nice but you want a divorce environment. I've been doing this for over 18 months and we've only moved away from MR. Counseling is over. I look like an a** just sitting here waiting for her to make her mind up.
I need some change, some space - to give her the f********** reality that she's asking for. I can't make you love me back. I'm not going to beg you to see our family through this. If you really want a D, then let's get on with it.
I'm spewing out frustration today - tired of watching the cake eating "until I can get full time work" BULL****.
I'm willing to do nesting at this point so the kids can stay home but she gets a taste of what is real. I'm really tired.
This is shifting gears a bit but wondered what your take was if I discover there is another A. I know it doesn't change anything (although it kills my desire to pursue her anymore).
It sounds like it would be best for you to assume that she is. You shouldn't be pursuing her. That's not DB'ing. So just assume she's cheating, and let that desire to pursue go. If she is, it won't come as such a shock, and if you find out later she isn't, that's a pleasant surprise. Much better than assuming she's not having an affair and finding out she is. Detachment is the key. GAL helps with detachment. Stop worrying about what she does or says. Focus on being the best you can be. Pretend your single and act like you would if you were trying to attract women. I'm not saying you should start dating, but it will help in attracting your wife back. All the pursuit makes you look pathetic and desperate. And I guarantee you she can see it. Drop the rope, man...
Yeah, I guess I'm just tired. Tired of sleeping in the same bed without even being looked at for 18 months.
Tired of this charade.
I'd be ok now if she wanted to move out and get a place to stay separately. I just feel completely taken for granted.
I'm gonna kill something at the gym today.
si13 -
I reached out to a good friend of mine recently. He went through a D in 2011, with 3 small kids, similar to both of us. His wife had a PA, then BD'ed him. He didn't want D, but didn't stop his exWW. The process took 2 years, and he struggled a lot, but today he is happier and more fulfilled than ever in his life. He has 50/50 custody, he has an amazing girlfriend, and has such a balanced perspective on life. Summary of some his advice (it sounds very DB, even though he is not familiar with it):
- Breathe. This is a marathon. No need to sprint.
- Don't react on emotion. If you feel intense emotion, do NOTHING. Acting on emotion, no matter how justified you feel, will only worsen your sitch.
- Stop mind-reading. Focus on yourself.
- You WILL come out of this happier. It is a fact.
- Avoid confrontation. It will not help in any way.
- Keep a journal, go for a walk. Experiment until you find a daily routine that works to keep you sane.
I should also say, his exWW ended up trying to recon when spousal support ran out. He didn't even need to think about it, he was so far removed and so much happier. Water off a duck's back.
I'm traveling for work next week. I'm going to miss the h*** out of my kids. But I'm also super excited to have some space, read some books on the plane, and work on myself. It is REALLY hard to detach and obtain some distance with 3 little kids - you are constantly around your W, constantly reminded of what's going on, constantly at home. Try to carve out your own space, do something for yourself, just get away from your sitch.
W took another shot at me this morning. Please help me identify why this rubs me the wrong way.
But as I was walking out, my W says, "like the kind of note you used to write to me."
WTF??????
My take: she’s justifying to herself why she’s leaving. Don’t take the bait. It’s not about you. She’s not seeking a reaction. She’s angry and justifying to herself her decisions.
My W got angry recently because I stayed home to watch my sick D5. At first I thought “oh she’s recognizing change” but really she’s mad that I’m changing. She doesn’t want to feel guilty. She wants no doubt. She’s not happy about my changes, it doesn’t fit her narrative.
But as I was walking out, my W says, "like the kind of note you used to write to me."
Always surprise your W with your response.
Humor and/or shock.
W:"like the kind of note you used to write to me."
H:"I guess we will have to have "the talk" with D sooner than we thought"
or
W:"like the kind of note you used to write to me."
H:"Hopefully she doesn't get turned on like you did"
Yeah, I guess I'm just tired. Tired of sleeping in the same bed without even being looked at for 18 months.
Tired of this charade.
I'd be ok now if she wanted to move out and get a place to stay separately. I just feel completely taken for granted.
I'm gonna kill something at the gym today.
Yeah that is a long time to be stuck in limbo. Separation actually makes it easier to stand in my opinion, because you can go about your life and leave her to whatever mess she wants to make of hers. Do you work in Dallas? I work right across from Northpark Mall.
But as I was walking out, my W says, "like the kind of note you used to write to me."
Always surprise your W with your response.
Humor and/or shock.
W:"like the kind of note you used to write to me."
H:"I guess we will have to have "the talk" with D sooner than we thought"
or
W:"like the kind of note you used to write to me."
H:"Hopefully she doesn't get turned on like you did"
Haha! Or "what do you mean 'used to write'? Oh, you mean to you."
Stander. We're not too far. We live up in Grapevine. I work in Dallas downtown.
Well if you want someone local to talk to we'll figure out a spot to meet for lunch. Maybe On The Border on Knox, that's kind of midway. Totally up to you of course. I just remember how hard it was finding local people that could identify with what I was going through.
Stander. Let's do that. Next week sometime?
Stander. Let's do that. Next week sometime?
Wednesday at 11:30? Meet in the entry?
si, you are one lucky guy! Getting to meet a legend like AS. You guys have fun.
I'll leave my comments about finding a better authentic Mexican place than OtB to myself! LOL Also, TX is my birth state!
I'm really looking forward to it. Having a rough week. Really needed some good news.
This post became so wordy, I decided to send it in two parts.
This is shifting gears a bit but wondered what your take was if I discover there is another A. I know it doesn't change anything (although it kills my desire to pursue her anymore).
How do I communicate that I know?
Before you communicate that you know, there are key things you need to think through. First of all, would any type of affair be a deal breaker? Some men push aside the seriousness of an emotional affair, just as long as the AP's didn't have sex. Emotional affairs go beyond the schoolgirl crush type of thing. It can encapture a WW to the point of forsaking everything to be with OM. It's all about feelings for the WW.
Most WW's will not admit to the truth presented or questioned by her H. At best she will give him a trickled down version. She is wayward, so don't expect her to truthfully answer any of your questions. Don't approach her and ask, "Are you having an A?" You need to know from some other source. And whatever source of your intell, you never ever reveal that source to her.
Trickle down versions of the truth is her avoiding to own the full level of their involvement. She will give you at least one level lower than what actually happened. Like, she may start by saying they were
just friends, someone she could talk to. If the H pressures by providing nude pictures or sex texting.... she'll they were just having fun and it wasn't serious. Some WW's will cop to having only shared a kiss, when in reality they are having sex. I've even read about H's having proof of the AP's spending the night together in a hotel room.......and the WW will claim they didn't have sex! One WW claimed she stopped in mid intercourse b/c she suddenly realized how much she loved her H. So, don't expect your W to be completely honest in revealing details.
LBH's ask why the WW lies about her affair, if she's already told her H she wants out of the M. It's part of the craziness of her mindset. That's not a sufficient answer, but you have to remember she is a cheater. Once she stepped over the line to betray her H, the other forms of deceit just becomes part of her need to cover up. She's not quite ready to release her Plan B (BH) until she has completely secured Plan A (OM), so that means she has to keep him from knowing the truth. She may not be ready for her parents or old friends to know she's cheating, so she has to devise some plan as to how she'll demonize her H to them, so to justify why she had to ask for a D. Then she will eventually introduce her new man and her parents and friends will accept him (she hopes). Listen, I was wayward and had an EA. We never met face to face IRL. With today's apps, it offers ways to conduct inappropriate activities, and then erase the evidence. Technically, I suppose it would not classify as a PA, but things sure were physical as per technology.
It really embarrasses me to give details. The point I want you to grab here is that I had the whole plan mapped out. I planned to tell my kids how bad the M was, leave my H and go live with the OM. After a little time, I would bring OM back to my hometown to meet my children and parent. Unbelievable!!
Your WW may be between affairs, or she may have carried her A underground so it is won't appear quite so obvious. I think there are some common overt behaviors seen in WW's and MLCW's. A lot of H's classify their WW as having a MLC. But anyway.......I said that to say this. It is rare to see a wayward and/or one in MLC who does not have an affair. So, if your W is not hiding some inappropriate contact, or more than inappropriate, then I think it will be a matter of time. You see, they reach this level of full out rebellion. In the past, she may have expressed some lower level of rebellion, but while her resentment, disrespect, selfishness, etc. is rising.......so is her rebellion.
I'm always telling H's they can't be soft on a wayward W. The WW is a different breed, and H's who illustrate a certain tenderness toward his WW, is likely to find himself divorced. It's sad to say, but I'm being brutally honest about what I'm witnessed on the board and IRL. Men who have NGS must feel as if they've traded their old self and put on a new man in order to successfully deal with his wayward W.
Okay, so I haven't actually answered your question, have I? Maybe part 2 will come closer.
Part 2, Confrontation:
Some people get the idea I am not in favor of confronting the WW about her affair. That's not true. I'm not in favor of confronting her when the H doesn't have a plan of action, with swift and harsh consequences if necessary. He has to be ready to physically separate, b/c telling her how much he wants to work on the M, etc., is the weak. She needs to see him standing up to her and being disgusted by her actions. She needs to wonder what he is going to do next. The last thing he should do is plead for the MR, and ask her to work on the relationship, yada, yada, yada. She'll see this type of reaction as sniveling, disgusting, and pathetic. She may not show those feelings on the surface, but it's b/c she is playing him for more time.
He should not "ask" her what she wants. He should not "ask" her what she plans to do. That gives her a sense of power over him. He cannot show emotion. He must stand straight & tall, and speak with a voice of confidence. Don't yell, lose control, cry, beg, start naming all your faults (she sees it as justification for her actions). Don't start apologizing for your part in the breakdown of the relationship, and don't take this time to start trying to validate her. Don't tell her you've already forgiven her!! In other words, this is strictly about you informing her that you know she has been concealing an affair.......and that you won't remain in an open marriage. (If you aren't ready to enforce that boundary, then don't say it.) As the man, and faithful spouse, you are the one who call the shots at this point. She may say she wants a divorce. Okay, don't argue and say that's not what you. B/c she has to see you being "done" at this point. I know it is scary, but her wayward mind will be doing cartwheels. Don't waver if she says ANYTHING other than she was wrong and wants to make things right and save the M. This scenario doesn't happen often, but it happens sometimes when the timing and approach is right.
One of the biggest mistakes I see H's make in the confrontation is them letting it spin into a long discussion about their relationship. This is not the time to engage in a relationship discussion. You don't sit down and start discussing everything wrong in the MR. Understand? This is not the time for all that talk. If you give her a crack, she'll use it to slither away from the purpose of this confrontation, and she'll twist things around until you won't know which end is up. This is the time she needs to know she has been caught. You have her number, and you don't intend to play along any further. You keep it short, on point, and then you leave the house without telling her where you are going or when you'll be back. You ignore her texts (b/c she will text you the minute you leave), and in fact, turn off you phone. You want nothing to do with her. She needs to panic!! She won't panic if you are assuring her that you want to save the M.
Confrontation merely let's her know that you know enough......and she'll either go further underground, or play games. Most WW's want to know exactly how much the H knows and how he found out. Don't tell her everything you know or how you found out. This is very important. Don't get into guessing games with her. You are the one in charge here.
Where I disagree with some H's and how they confronted the WW, is that the majority of H's seem to think this confrontation is going to shock the WW and she'll immediately show remorse for the affair. Some H's want to use the confrontation to find out more about the affair. And, a lot of H's seem to think the WW will end the affair after she's confronted. I have to say this rarely happens, but it's possible. I mean, even if the WW shows certain responses the H is hoping to see.........it is seldom genuine. Actually, the confrontation puts the W on notice. She usually temp checks him, secures her Plan B, takes her affair deeper undercover, and continues the game playing. IMHO, the H should be so convincing in his approach that it sends her into panic mode to realize she has been discovered and now she could lose her family.....for real.
It's difficult to give a mock confrontation with what to say, etc. Let me share some of my opinions, and some that I found in an article.
Before confrontation:
Have plenty of proof she is cheating. Don't go in accusing, if you don't have the proof. You don't have to have this confrontation right away. Take plenty of time to observe her stories or accounts about her activity.....so, if she tries to lie her way out.....you recognize it and remember what you observed. Based on your evidence, think ahead of what she might say to convince you it's not what you think and she's not really cheating. You have to be prepared by thinking how you will respond to her denials. Don't argue with her, just remain calm and in control. You know what the intell shows.
If you have one very trustful friend (not any mutual friends), you can show the evidence that friend to get an unbiased viewpoint. I don't advise asking relatives, or putting it out on social media, but that's MHO. Having a solid longstanding friend can give you moral support, but be careful.
Have a sense of your game plan before you approach her. Know what you will say/do should she confess, and should she continue to lie & deny.
Don't confront if either of you have been drinking.
Don't have the confrontation late at night.
Don't confront in the presence of children, or where you'll likely be interrupted.
Choose a quiet atmosphere, with only the two of you.
Don't confront if either of you are already having a high stress day, showing anxiety, impatience, anger, etc.
Make sure there is plenty of time for this confrontation. Don't do it right before some appointment, going to work/school, etc.
The confrontation:
You may say you need to discuss something serious with her. Once you have her attention, you can something like, "I have reasons that suggest you might be having an affair".
She may immediately want to know how much you know....and especially, how you found out.
Say that her behavior led you to become concerned and that you felt it was warranted to a find out what was going on....... given how serious cheating is.
She'll probably get upset about you invading her privacy, or try to turn the conversation around to focus on your faults, even blame you for her affair. She may tell you that you're crazy and/or imagining things. Calmly bring the focus back by re-affirming it was her behavior that has given you serious concerns.... and that this conversation is about whether or not she is cheating on you.
"I knew there were problems in our MR, and I had hoped we could work through it. However, I feel you've completely disrespected me with this affair".
"We can choose to get help in healing our MR, or we can end it". "I won't stay in an M while my W has an affair". So, we both have a serious decision to make".
Understand there is no way to completely predict what your W will do. She may shock me and burst into tears begging for forgiveness. But, I don't think she will. Her heart is hard & cold.
If she should show remorse and says she wants to save the M, then be prepared to tell her you need a few days to consider what it would take for you to remain in the M. IMHO, you need to tell her this b/c you don't want her thinking you are jumping at the chance to be with a cheater. So many H's are too eager and accept the WW back too easily. She has to really work hard to get out of that wayward frame of mind.
"ARE YOU HAVING AN AFFAIR OR AN EMOTIONAL AFFAIR WITH ANYONE?"
Anyone get this response???????
Yes.
And I answered more or less as you did.
However, once she left I did have several one night stands which I did tell her about when she asked.
Honestly, whatever you answer won't change a thing.
Only the passage of time will do that.
Part 2, Confrontation:
Some people get the idea I am not in favor of confronting the WW about her affair. That's not true. I'm not in favor of confronting her when the H doesn't have a plan of action, with swift and harsh consequences if necessary. He has to be ready to physically separate, b/c telling her how much he wants to work on the M, etc., is the weak. She needs to see him standing up to her and being disgusted by her actions. She needs to wonder what he is going to do next. The last thing he should do is plead for the MR, and ask her to work on the relationship, yada, yada, yada. She'll see this type of reaction as sniveling, disgusting, and pathetic. She may not show those feelings on the surface, but it's b/c she is playing him for more time.
He should not "ask" her what she wants. He should not "ask" her what she plans to do. That gives her a sense of power over him. He cannot show emotion. He must stand straight & tall, and speak with a voice of confidence. Don't yell, lose control, cry, beg, start naming all your faults (she sees it as justification for her actions). Don't start apologizing for your part in the breakdown of the relationship, and don't take this time to start trying to validate her. Don't tell her you've already forgiven her!! In other words, this is strictly about you informing her that you know she has been concealing an affair.......and that you won't remain in an open marriage. (If you aren't ready to enforce that boundary, then don't say it.) As the man, and faithful spouse, you are the one who call the shots at this point. She may say she wants a divorce. Okay, don't argue and say that's not what you. B/c she has to see you being "done" at this point. I know it is scary, but her wayward mind will be doing cartwheels. Don't waver if she says ANYTHING other than she was wrong and wants to make things right and save the M. This scenario doesn't happen often, but it happens sometimes when the timing and approach is right.
One of the biggest mistakes I see H's make in the confrontation is them letting it spin into a long discussion about their relationship. This is not the time to engage in a relationship discussion. You don't sit down and start discussing everything wrong in the MR. Understand? This is not the time for all that talk. If you give her a crack, she'll use it to slither away from the purpose of this confrontation, and she'll twist things around until you won't know which end is up. This is the time she needs to know she has been caught. You have her number, and you don't intend to play along any further. You keep it short, on point, and then you leave the house without telling her where you are going or when you'll be back. You ignore her texts (b/c she will text you the minute you leave), and in fact, turn off you phone. You want nothing to do with her. She needs to panic!! She won't panic if you are assuring her that you want to save the M.
Confrontation merely let's her know that you know enough......and she'll either go further underground, or play games. Most WW's want to know exactly how much the H knows and how he found out. Don't tell her everything you know or how you found out. This is very important. Don't get into guessing games with her. You are the one in charge here.
Where I disagree with some H's and how they confronted the WW, is that the majority of H's seem to think this confrontation is going to shock the WW and she'll immediately show remorse for the affair. Some H's want to use the confrontation to find out more about the affair. And, a lot of H's seem to think the WW will end the affair after she's confronted. I have to say this rarely happens, but it's possible. I mean, even if the WW shows certain responses the H is hoping to see.........it is seldom genuine. Actually, the confrontation puts the W on notice. She usually temp checks him, secures her Plan B, takes her affair deeper undercover, and continues the game playing. IMHO, the H should be so convincing in his approach that it sends her into panic mode to realize she has been discovered and now she could lose her family.....for real.
It's difficult to give a mock confrontation with what to say, etc. Let me share some of my opinions, and some that I found in an article.
Before confrontation:
Have plenty of proof she is cheating. Don't go in accusing, if you don't have the proof. You don't have to have this confrontation right away. Take plenty of time to observe her stories or accounts about her activity.....so, if she tries to lie her way out.....you recognize it and remember what you observed. Based on your evidence, think ahead of what she might say to convince you it's not what you think and she's not really cheating. You have to be prepared by thinking how you will respond to her denials. Don't argue with her, just remain calm and in control. You know what the intell shows.
If you have one very trustful friend (not any mutual friends), you can show the evidence that friend to get an unbiased viewpoint. I don't advise asking relatives, or putting it out on social media, but that's MHO. Having a solid longstanding friend can give you moral support, but be careful.
Have a sense of your game plan before you approach her. Know what you will say/do should she confess, and should she continue to lie & deny.
Don't confront if either of you have been drinking.
Don't have the confrontation late at night.
Don't confront in the presence of children, or where you'll likely be interrupted.
Choose a quiet atmosphere, with only the two of you.
Don't confront if either of you are already having a high stress day, showing anxiety, impatience, anger, etc.
Make sure there is plenty of time for this confrontation. Don't do it right before some appointment, going to work/school, etc.
The confrontation:
You may say you need to discuss something serious with her. Once you have her attention, you can something like, "I have reasons that suggest you might be having an affair".
She may immediately want to know how much you know....and especially, how you found out.
Say that her behavior led you to become concerned and that you felt it was warranted to a find out what was going on....... given how serious cheating is.
She'll probably get upset about you invading her privacy, or try to turn the conversation around to focus on your faults, even blame you for her affair. She may tell you that you're crazy and/or imagining things. Calmly bring the focus back by re-affirming it was her behavior that has given you serious concerns.... and that this conversation is about whether or not she is cheating on you.
"I knew there were problems in our MR, and I had hoped we could work through it. However, I feel you've completely disrespected me with this affair".
"We can choose to get help in healing our MR, or we can end it". "I won't stay in an M while my W has an affair". So, we both have a serious decision to make".
Understand there is no way to completely predict what your W will do. She may shock me and burst into tears begging for forgiveness. But, I don't think she will. Her heart is hard & cold.
If she should show remorse and says she wants to save the M, then be prepared to tell her you need a few days to consider what it would take for you to remain in the M. IMHO, you need to tell her this b/c you don't want her thinking you are jumping at the chance to be with a cheater. So many H's are too eager and accept the WW back too easily. She has to really work hard to get out of that wayward frame of mind.
All I have right now is some erased call logs recently AND a number that is in an area where the old AP was living.
It's not enough, it's just that she's has 3 As - 2PAs and 1 EA.
Will see you there!
I'll leave my comments about finding a better authentic Mexican place than OtB to myself! LOL Also, TX is my birth state!
Mine too. I honestly prefer tex-mex over "authentic" Mexican food. The first time I went to Mexico I was surprised to find that tex-mex is not the same thing as Mexican food
This is shifting gears a bit but wondered what your take was if I discover there is another A. I know it doesn't change anything (although it kills my desire to pursue her anymore).
I think most LBS's are in denial about just how "over" their M is. They see their W as "going through something" and if they say or do the right thing then it will snap them out of it. I think that's why most of us ended up here, we were searching the Internet for answers on the right steps to take to "fix things" and stumbled across DB'ing. Discovering an A sometimes snaps the LBS out of it. They realize that the woman that they knew and loved and was so devoted to them has checked out and there's an interloper in her place. But the thing is, that new knowledge didn't change anything except the LBS's PERCEPTION of the situation. Your situation, it is ALREADY that bad. You're clinging to the notion that it's salvageable when it already isn't. I think the only reason your W is still in the same house is what you mentioned in your first post- she can't afford to leave. Maybe she's hoping the right OM will come along that can whisk her away. Or maybe she's fantasizing she'll land some great new source of income selling candles or something. But she's not there out of any desire to work on things.
I was faced with the same dilemma as you. My XW had been hanging around with a coworker. His W left him and she was there to console him through his difficult time (oh the irony). I trusted my XW without question and never once considered it as anything other than her helping a friend. Well fast forward to BD and she's still talking to him and messaging through FB and working with him. I could find no evidence of an A, but it kept me up many a night wondering about it. Finally I came to the conclusion that the best course of action for ME was actually rather simple- assume the worst and act accordingly. She's having an A, do I want to keep standing for my M or not? At the time I decided to keep standing, but I was fully embracing DB'ing by then so I did not confront her because there was nothing to gain by it. And all these years later, I still don't know what the extent of their "friendship" was. But I do know one thing, my M was dead at BD. It took me almost a year to finally realize how dead it was though.
Now I'm not saying to give up and that there's no hope. The idea of DB'ing isn't to save your existing M, it is to forge a new way forward, make yourself the spouse only a fool would leave and hopefully down the road you'll get an opportunity to build a NEW R with her. It has happened plenty of times, but the LBS really has to drop the rope first. And that takes time and patience!
F*ck
I got a TM today from my W that she wants to go out with her 2 GFs both recently divorced and go out for the night.
My anxiety is spiked both about what she will do and if I can handle my disposition before she leaves and when she comes back.
I hate this process.
W:"I want to go out with 2 GF tonight"
H:"Have a great time!"
It would be good for you to go out Saturday night.
Go shopping for some new stylish clothes today or tomorrow.
F*ck
I got a TM today from my W that she wants to go out with her 2 GFs both recently divorced and go out for the night.
My anxiety is spiked both about what she will do and if I can handle my disposition before she leaves and when she comes back.
I hate this process.
Ah yes, the ol' girls-gone-wild outing. Well at least she told you. WAS's draw enablers like moths to a flame. It's part of it. Sorry it triggered you but it really doesn't change anything. BREATHE!
Ok, well, I blew it tonight...
I spent the day at a Men's Retreat at our local church. I'm kind of confused about how to bibically love my wife and the concept of DBing and how they combine.
If you have a comment that is critical of faith OR religion OR biblical worldview please save it for another forum. But if you have faith, believe what is said about loving your wife, laying your life down for her, then please I am open to your thoughts.
I spent time around thousands of men today, and the speaker prayed for broken marriages. I was encouraged to "love" my wife, to pursue her. Which I felt conflicted about of course because I'm DBing!!! But I don't want my wife to think I'm no longer interested in her.
I told her point blank that my heart is for her.
Ironically she said she was going out with a friend who had been divorced 1 year today. She said everywhere at her work people are dropping like flies. I replied, "well they've got a 50% chance". She said not according to Jimmy Evans (from Marriage Today) who believes 2 people who are for their marriage have a 100% chance of success no matter what they've done. I didn't dignify a response.
We got back around to our conversations about affairs and whether I was engaged in one. I said no. I then asked if she was. (I don't believe her based on her track record) but she said she wanted to find herself right now. She said, like you I am trying to work on myself.
Not sure I believe anything and while I don't have any proof, there was a part of me that wanted her to say she was engaged in an EA because I wanted to have her leave the house. I just am so DANG tired.
She's out with her friends tonight. I'm trying to do things to build myself up. I'm praying, I'm asking. I'm just not sure what I believe in my heart that God would lead me to do. Do I have grounds to leave her? Yes. Do I still want to be married to the woman who I committed to for my life? Yes.
But being stuck in the middle freaking [censored].
You were encouraged to pursue and since it is what you want you decide it's a good idea...you'll show her how much you care, and she won't care. But you love her right? How has your profession of love worked so far? Has she changed her mind?
Her saying she wants to find herself is what most of the cheaters say. And you don't want to believe she's having an affair either....
I told her point blank that my heart is for her.
You told her you were plan B. She told you she is going out with people who are going to encourage her to have an affair.
Did she say she loves you and her heart is for you? Have you read DR? Do you know how ILYs work against you with a WAS?
If you love her so much, then respect her wishes and move on and GAL and stop trying to convince her that she doesn't really mean what she is telling you. Every time you beg and plead with her it makes her resolve stronger and you appear weaker. You think you can talk your way out of this but you can't. Your words are digging a deeper hole.
No more ILYs, no more weak behavior around her, no more pursuit.
Do what R2C said. Get some new clothes and go out tomorrow night. Interact with men and women. You do that until your realize there is life on the other side and maybe your sitch will start to change.
You can love your wife without pursuing. Set her free. Maintain your personal boundaries. Do not be open with her. You are now a quite, observing type of guy.
Ahh great. Spent the weekend hearing about how my distance, affect and short responses are triggering my W because of 10 years of emotional abuse.
I tried not to engage. I really did.
I just can't believe I'm still hearing this. I've given her all this time and we are still here 18 months later. She doesn't see it that way though. Because I didn't instantly change 18 months ago.
And oh by the way. YOU HAD 2 [censored] AFFAIRS LAST YEAR. But alas I get to hear how she didn't know who she was when that was happening. She is finding herself now, not getting involved with anyone and just working on herself.
I'm getting so tired of being expected to behave perfectly and have just the expected vocal and inflection she needs to feel safe.
All the while taking ZERO personal responsibility for her actions.
ANNNNNND she's out again tonight drinking with work friends.
This is working out well.
So sorry you're experiencing this garbage-ola. Double-standards are just cruel - intentional or otherwise.
Baiting....what a hateful, cruel thing... S's always know the perfect sigh, perfect inflection, etc ad nauseam to trigger.
I also got the ZERO responsibility for her comments, actions, etc and now accusation of verbal/emo abuse....i should have taped all that stuff. That also feels just a little on the crappy side....
The great thing is that today is done - no more filth to be flung.
Sleep and rest and wake up refreshed. Tomorrow is full of great potential and opportunity to be the "Teflon Don"!!!
I should follow my own 'stuff'!!!
Awakened...
And these are the reasons why my EXWWs PA and behavior were a complete dealbreaker. I had enough mistreatment. Enough was enough. Someone that can treat another human so poorly, especially someone who loved them deeply and dedicated thier life to them, doesn't deserve to have us in their lives.
I am way to valuable to be sh*t on and cheated on. So I smashed that eject button and moved on. Maybe if my EXWW can recognize her NPD issues and work on them, we can be friends one day.
But knowing her mom, who she acts just like, that will most likely never happen.
Si,
Dont even engage her. She is getting to you. Getting under your skin and keeping your mind occupied with her. Validate her feelings and walk away.
Here is a way of looking at it. By her having two Affairs while finding herself that could be considered emotional abuse to you? Yes? If it's continually all about them leave them to their own devices. Believe me I get it the double standards and hypocrisy, the complete and total lack of accountability and selfishness. It's good that she's finally starting to come to her senses and slowly doing the work on herself. But I would smash the eject button anyway, just for fun, just to see where it takes me, just for the ride into the unknown. Lonely or not. Even if there wasn't an affair. Your life has the potential to be so much better without all the drama and bull$hit in it. Your life and your time is important to you. Much more important then of somebody who doesn't want to be with you
I spent the day at a Men's Retreat at our local church. I'm kind of confused about how to bibically love my wife and the concept of DBing and how they combine.
If you have a comment that is critical of faith OR religion OR biblical worldview please save it for another forum. But if you have faith, believe what is said about loving your wife, laying your life down for her, then please I am open to your thoughts.
I think the "Fireproof" concept of breaking into full-on pursuit if your M is in trouble is possibly a valid one if things are rocky but you haven't been BD'd yet. IE, your W is not two feet out the door. But once you get BD'd and she's gone full blown WAS, pursuit simply does not work. I would venture to say that every single person on these forums tried it. We all do it before we find DB'ing. And it didn't work for anyone. I don't know a single example of it working. But I know many examples of DB'ing working to EVENTUALLY restore an M. It doesn't work fast, there are no magic tricks or miracles.
I think what those of faith have to embrace is the concept that maybe God is trying to teach us patience, and teach us to let go of what we want as a show of love to our spouse. If she doesn't want to be married to you then what is the ultimate expression of love? Is it constantly pressuring her and pushing her and waving the Bible in her face to show her what she's doing is wrong and getting others to talk to her in your behalf? Or is it letting her go and giving her what she wants even though it breaks your heart? I'm not trying to force an answer on you, but it's something to meditate on.
But I don't want my wife to think I'm no longer interested in her.
Oh she knows.
I told her point blank that my heart is for her.
OK you said it. Now don't keep saying it. Once is enough. She already knew. She still knows. Constant reminders are pressure, and you need to remove all pressure.
Ahh great. Spent the weekend hearing about how my distance, affect and short responses are triggering my W because of 10 years of emotional abuse.
I tried not to engage. I really did.
Good opportunity to listen and validate. Right now NOTHING you do is going to make her happy. She'll find reasons to dislike everything you do. So you've got to do them for you, and with a LONG TERM view of saving your M, not a hope that you'll see an immediate positive reaction.
I just can't believe I'm still hearing this. I've given her all this time and we are still here 18 months later. She doesn't see it that way though. Because I didn't instantly change 18 months ago.
Again, just listen and validate when she says these things. She is trying to justify her actions, her "rationalization hamster" is running it's little legs off. You can't reason with her, don't even try. Read up on validation. The beauty of it is you are not agreeing with her, you are simply acknowledging her feelings. Her feelings are valid no matter how crazy they are. You have to learn to accept her feelings and let her have them.
si, am a very conservative Christian. I believe Christ died for the church and gave his life for it, just like we should be willing to do for our spouse. However, notice, Jesus doesn't "pursue". He doesn't "pressure". He stands at the door and knocks. Anyone that opens the door he will come in and sup with them
In my sitch I stood at the door and knocked. I waited patiently until she was willing to open that door. For me, I was lucky, and it took just a few months. Most will have to wait much longer.
I think DBing fits in perfectly with the idea of Biblically loving my spouse. Jesus said if someone asked him for a cup of water, he'd provide it, out of love. Our spouses ask for space, we should provide it out of love. Love doesn't mean pressure or pursuit. Love means giving someone what they want/need whether it is easy or convenient for us or not.
Those are my thoughts.
Not sure I believe anything and while I don't have any proof, there was a part of me that wanted her to say she was engaged in an EA because I wanted to have her leave the house. I just am so DANG tired.
How do you square this with Biblically loving your W?
Gentlemen. I sincerely appreciate your well thought out words. They are like medicine to my bones. I receive them.
We turned a corner this morning, and when I say that, I mean I confronted her about a phone number I have seen repeating for the last couple of months.
She had no leg to stand on. She admitted that after her AP re-connected with her in February she stopped talking but then got a call from a number in his area. She has consistently reached out to that number.
She confessed that this morning.
She asked me to come back after I dropped the kids at school. I am numb, so I planned to come back and simply listen to what she had to say.
She talked about being lonely, looking for something in this relationship that she knows is unhealthy, knows isn't right but was looking anyway.
I told her I had no reason to believe a word she says.
She said she was so sorry, asked what measures I wanted to take in light of this new behavior and I said nothing.
She asked me if I wanted her to leave, and I said I didn't know right now. I need some time to pray.
I know I can go back and read Sandi's thoughts on what to do now that she has at least admitted to pursuing this relationship still after 18 months.
But I am so confused. Men of faith, Steve, AnotherStander, I want God's heart in this decision. She is clearly making a decision with what she is doing. I told her I would not be disrespected like this.
Going forward I don't know what my play is here. I want to be married but she is gone. I don't want to hurt my kids but they can't live in this environment where everything she does is because she blames me for it. She has had the choice to NOT call anyone, NOT reach out to unhealthy places.
I have been lonely for 18 months. I have engaged in ZERO unhealthy relationships.
But I just don't know where we go from here.
si, am a very conservative Christian. I believe Christ died for the church and gave his life for it, just like we should be willing to do for our spouse. However, notice, Jesus doesn't "pursue". He doesn't "pressure". He stands at the door and knocks. Anyone that opens the door he will come in and sup with them
In my sitch I stood at the door and knocked. I waited patiently until she was willing to open that door. For me, I was lucky, and it took just a few months. Most will have to wait much longer.
I think DBing fits in perfectly with the idea of Biblically loving my spouse. Jesus said if someone asked him for a cup of water, he'd provide it, out of love. Our spouses ask for space, we should provide it out of love. Love doesn't mean pressure or pursuit. Love means giving someone what they want/need whether it is easy or convenient for us or not.
Those are my thoughts.
^^^Very well said Steve!^^^
She had no leg to stand on. She admitted that after her AP re-connected with her in February she stopped talking but then got a call from a number in his area. She has consistently reached out to that number.
She confessed that this morning.
Very sorry, I know that has to hurt.
She asked me if I wanted her to leave, and I said I didn't know right now. I need some time to pray.
I know I can go back and read Sandi's thoughts on what to do now that she has at least admitted to pursuing this relationship still after 18 months.
But I am so confused. Men of faith, Steve, AnotherStander, I want God's heart in this decision. She is clearly making a decision with what she is doing. I told her I would not be disrespected like this.
I think this needs to be her decision. My attitude is there are two options:
1- She stays, chooses to work on the M, and cuts all contact with OM (and does it right in front of you, sends him a text stating that she is choosing her marriage and is deleting his info and stating that he is never to contact her again.) The two of you can discuss options as far as IC, MC, Retrouvaille and such.
2- She moves out.
I do NOT see leaving things as-is as an option. If she chooses option 2 that is NOT a reflection on you, it is 100% HER. I would present her with these options and tell her it's her choice. I would also tell her that if she chooses 1 but you find out that she continues to lie about her activities then she needs to go. So if she leaves, it's either by HER choice or HER bad decisions.
Going forward I don't know what my play is here. I want to be married but she is gone. I don't want to hurt my kids but they can't live in this environment where everything she does is because she blames me for it.
Keep in mind that even if she leaves, that doesn't necessarily mean it's over. Marriages have reconciled after lengthy separations and even divorce. Trust in your faith, the way forward may not seem like the "right" way to you but it doesn't mean it's not part of God's plan.
si, am a very conservative Christian. I believe Christ died for the church and gave his life for it, just like we should be willing to do for our spouse. However, notice, Jesus doesn't "pursue". He doesn't "pressure". He stands at the door and knocks. Anyone that opens the door he will come in and sup with them
In my sitch I stood at the door and knocked. I waited patiently until she was willing to open that door. For me, I was lucky, and it took just a few months. Most will have to wait much longer.
I think DBing fits in perfectly with the idea of Biblically loving my spouse. Jesus said if someone asked him for a cup of water, he'd provide it, out of love. Our spouses ask for space, we should provide it out of love. Love doesn't mean pressure or pursuit. Love means giving someone what they want/need whether it is easy or convenient for us or not.
Those are my thoughts.
That is a great perspective Steve. Also, if you ask God for forgiveness he will grant it. Some WS will ask for forgiveness and some wont.
Y'all are awesome. These are things I've needed to hear.
I wanted to be clear about what I understand from seeing the phone records (although I suspect there's more I don't know ie: believe nothing they do or say).
I only saw this number called and length of calls are 1 minute every time. It looks as if she is either reaching out to then use another method (chat program etc) or is calling a number that called her from where he used to live but she said there's never an answer.
Again I have no reason to believe her AT ALL at this point.
Problem is she has repeatedly said she doesn't want to work on the M, she wants to work on herself.
Well, not like this I won't.
Every time we circle back in conversation about November 2017 and she stated, "I don't want to be married like this" she also claims to be working on herself in IC. Which is a total load of BS.
She won't concede about emotionally being all over the place - she just goes back to blaming me about abuse, I wouldn't let her work on herself, pressure to work on the M and she needed an escape / distraction which was a full blown, guy moved here to bang my wife affair.
I am calmly preparing my heart to stand up for myself. I indicated what she did was absolutely disrespectful.
I now need to keep moving toward that. She may not want to work on the marriage, as she will claim control and it's not giving her the freedom to find her voice.
But I will not be in an open marriage.
W "I don't want to be married like this"
H"I agree. I don't want to be married like this either"
I think this needs to be her decision. My attitude is there are two options:
1- She stays, chooses to work on the M, and cuts all contact with OM (and does it right in front of you, sends him a text stating that she is choosing her marriage and is deleting his info and stating that he is never to contact her again.) The two of you can discuss options as far as IC, MC, Retrouvaille and such.
2- She moves out.
Boundaries work.
H:"W, I do not want to be married like this. I want us both to be happy. I Want a woman bla bla bla bla... Right now, I do not see that in you. I will not live in an open marriage. I plan on filing divorce so we both can move on."
If she begs you "what will it take" then you can "I am not sure. I need time to think aboutwhat you just said. Then you can work on the no contact.
Dig deep in my quotes thread for ideas. Take notes.
Just remember, actions not words. Stop telling her. Stop talking to her about your expectations. Stop pointing out her emotional issues. Stop trying to drag it out of her that she is having an A. Just pull back HARD. Show her that you are not messing around.
If you truly and really want confirmation to ease your mind, hire a private investigator. That is what I had to do. Your WW is gaslighting you. I was gaslighted badly. I honestly almost believed that it was all me. But something just did not add up.
So I hired a PI. Had her followed around when she was on business in CA and easily confirmed her PA. There were other things as well. My EXWW actually denied sleeping with her boss, even though they stayed in the same hotel room. "I just stayed with him because he was sick". Sure lady.
She literally would not relent that she wasnt having an A. I had recording of her talking to him on the phone about him bragging to his friends about having sex with her and her saying dirty things to him. I couldnt listen to anymore obviously, but I literally had to let her listen to herself in that recording before she would admit what she was doing.
It blew her away that I wasnt a fool and that I would go to the extent of hiring a PI to confirm her PA. Even then she still blamed me. After I hired the PI and confirmed PA she literally told me "I can't be with a man who I don't trust". I was like uh, WTF, you don't trust ME?!?!. She responded "You had me followed, so I don't trust you". OMFG the mind of a wayward woman. She also told me "You wanted this to happen". Yeah, sure, every man just dreams that their wife will cheat on them and throw their vows in the trash. Right?!?
I can honestly say that confirming the PA lifted a weight off of my shoulders, but it hurt bad to know that was what in fact was happening. However I then knew that it wasnt me and that it was all her doing. That helped me drop the rope and her continued treatment actually pushed me away from her at lightspeed.
So if that is what you need to help you DB, then do it the right way. Get legal proof with a PI. I have a whole report that I was ready to give to the court if she fought me about D. She never did, we came to an agreement on our own fortunately.
si, I know you want to think the best of your W and hold out hope that the W you knew and loved is in there somewhere, but we've seen so many of these WW situations play out here and what ST describes above is very likely what you are dealing with. Your W is more than likely lying and gaslighting, and then when slapped with cold, hard evidence she only discloses just enough truth to throw you off the trail of what is REALLY happening. I could be wrong but my money says she's deeper into 1 or more affairs than you realize. You need to imagine the bleakest scenario, and ask yourself what your course of action would be if that scenario were true. Maybe you would choose to stand, maybe you would move all her clothes into the yard. I don't know, but whatever that course of action is for you, that is what you should do because the worst you can imagine is probably not far from the truth.
Gentlemen. I sincerely appreciate your well thought out words. They are like medicine to my bones. I receive them.
We turned a corner this morning, and when I say that, I mean I confronted her about a phone number I have seen repeating for the last couple of months.
She had no leg to stand on. She admitted that after her AP re-connected with her in February she stopped talking but then got a call from a number in his area. She has consistently reached out to that number.
She confessed that this morning.
She asked me to come back after I dropped the kids at school. I am numb, so I planned to come back and simply listen to what she had to say.
She talked about being lonely, looking for something in this relationship that she knows is unhealthy, knows isn't right but was looking anyway.
I told her I had no reason to believe a word she says.
She said she was so sorry, asked what measures I wanted to take in light of this new behavior and I said nothing.
She asked me if I wanted her to leave, and I said I didn't know right now. I need some time to pray.
I know I can go back and read Sandi's thoughts on what to do now that she has at least admitted to pursuing this relationship still after 18 months.
But I am so confused. Men of faith, Steve, AnotherStander, I want God's heart in this decision. She is clearly making a decision with what she is doing. I told her I would not be disrespected like this.
Going forward I don't know what my play is here. I want to be married but she is gone. I don't want to hurt my kids but they can't live in this environment where everything she does is because she blames me for it. She has had the choice to NOT call anyone, NOT reach out to unhealthy places.
I have been lonely for 18 months. I have engaged in ZERO unhealthy relationships.
But I just don't know where we go from here.
si, first WWs are addicted to the AP. In my first sitch my W's EA was very hard for her to break away from. It took months for her to finally be over it. This is not that uncommon for them to struggle with breaking off all contact. I think if you give her time she can and will get past it.
"Going forward I don't know what my play is here." Sometimes the best play is no play at all. Slow, steady and patient wins the race. Give her some time. Take a deep breath. Breathe. Doing something rash will leave you with a lifetime of questions. Trust me on this.
Originally Posted by si13
Not sure I believe anything and while I don't have any proof, there was a part of me that wanted her to say she was engaged in an EA because I wanted to have her leave the house. I just am so DANG tired.
You were the one who attended a religious retreat for husbands......not your WW. I have seen many people who get very enthused during retreats and head home with the intentions of turning things around. First thing the enemy will do is hit you smack in the face.
Your WW has 2 PA's and 1 EA, that you know about. She is very disrespectful of her H. I don't know how much proof of an affair you need, but why do you feel you have to hear her say she is having an EA, in order for her to leave the house? Why do you think she would leave? More than likely, she would make
you leave.
Now I don't wish to say anything offensive or out of line about the retreat, b/c I wasn't there and did not hear what was shared. Was this a Christian retreat? I've heard a lot Christian messages/lessons on the role of both spouses. I'm pretty sure I've never heard the one about pursuing his disrespectful wife. H's are taught to love their W. Interesting enough, the same was not said to the wives. They were told to respect their H's.
H's have the responsibility of providing, protecting, leading and teaching his family in the ways of God.
To whom much is given, much is required. God placed man as the head of the family, and that is a big responsibility.
Maybe the speaker was referring to men pursuing the woman to
get married. Did they actually say the H should pursue a disobedient, disrespectful, wayward W?
I have seen young Christian men who had soft hearts and gentle ways, struggle with a W who was rebellious, unloving and disrespectful. They struggled b/c as men, they failed to know how to manage a relationship where their mate refused to behave as the scripture teaches. He goes to church and hears the minister teach how the H is suppose to love his W, and he takes it to mean only one way to love.........where he is gentle, self sacrificing, supplicating, placating, and relenting. That's how
he interprets "loving" his W.
Sandi. Yes. You're spot on. I was pretty excited coming from a Christian Men's Summit and I do understand the Scripture's standards of loving my wife. I am 46yo and my W is 38.
I also know the Scriptures call for Ws to respect their H which is not going on.
Last night I tried to come home and have a good attitude. Even after confronting about the number my W has been calling in hopes to reach (and maybe she has) her old AP. I even after dinner asked if she wanted to watch the American Idol finale as we were both retiring after getting the kids to bed about 9pm. She responded surprised and asked even after all that happened this morning? I said we're headed to bed, we're gonna watch something.
When I rose this morning I was still really struggling on how I actually address this issue. Stay and work on the M with transparency or GTFO. I think this is the angle I am going to approach with. I will not tolerate being Plan B or an open marriage. I am not trying to control you however, you're search for yourself has ALWAYS included other parties. So it's not working.
My Ws complaint and her ongoing war with me on whether I am an abuser is my affect, my mood, my tone, my short word responses. I can admit that I have struggled with this for years. I have been moody and in years past I used that mood to manipulate. But honestly in the last 18 months my mood has been suspicious and sad becuase I know my W is a liar and a cheater. I can't just fake happy.
I'm willing to work with my W on this in our M but I won't do it unless it's on a level playing field.
Thoughts guys?
Just something I would like to add about giving ultimatums and mindsets. If your spouse is cheating on you, and they are a stake holder legally in the mortgage, property, etc. You cannot force them to leave, but, you can ask them to leave. If the police are ever involved, and you are demanding that they leave or GTFO, Its going to come down to legalities, behavior, and what is best for the children, etc. What I am trying to illustrate here is, if you are going to give an ultimatum of work on the M, or GTFO! You better have the lawyer consultation, and legal standing ground to back it up and maintain your authority to remove your W from the premise. The other thing is if you are asking them to leave. Do not ask them from a place of your own emotional benefit. (You are going to have to suck this up, if you don't have a legal leg to stand on as far as deeds, assets, etc.) The only reason why you would ask them, and should be asking them to GTFO, is because you are protecting YOUR CHILDREN from exposure to AP OW or OM and your WW poor choices, especially within your household within your legal rights. It has to be "for the children" or you will lose legally in court if your W decides to fight you for anything.
Thank you so much IH. I will keep all that in consideration. At the time I confronted her she actually asked if I wanted her to leave. I told her I wasn't sure. I want to keep all the decisions in front of me not doing anything hasty.
Well, even after I confronted her with information that I knew she was calling a suspicious number she confessed to, she's back acting her old self. Not the old self I'd hoped for. The distant, I'm not sure I want to be with you self.
I'll admit I thought being discovered (again) would provide some sort of awakening like what have I been doing? I don't know. Maybe she is still involved in the A and laughing at me that all I found was the call history.
She asked if there was anything I wanted for transparency. She asked if I wanted her to leave. I told her those weren't decisions I was ready to make right then.
And then just like that she was back to her manipulative little ways.
Last night she asked me something about why I didn't ask her dad prior to proposing. This is 14 years ago. And she seems to live in whatever year will support her abuse narrative.
I give up. It's back to GAL. Part of me wishes I had threatened to file. At least to shock her but being honest I want my marriage still. I still love her despite the disrespect.
She did apologize. Twice. But I had hoped it would be more profound than this. Seems after several As it's just another lie and deceit instance that isn't too big of a deal to her.
AnotherStander. We are still good for today. 1130. Do you want to shoot me an email so we can connect prior?
segentry7280@gmail.com
I am getting to the point where I do not think LBSs should confront over things like this. I stop short of saying this strongly to LBSs because I know that in my own sitch, finding things and not confronting was nearly impossible. However, at a maximum, LBSs should just say "I know", and not say what or how they they know. The problem is that it is hard to confront without expectations. When I would confront my W I expected sadness, sorrow and remorse. And I would spiral when her attitude was "yeah, I know. I told you I was done."
Confronting is pressure. And the best course of action is no pressure. Even thought I know that is very difficult to live by.
That´s why the ultimate task is to keep working on ourselves. Is about what kind of living do we want to live in. It starts there...
Keep walking man!
(((((Si)))))
My stand on confrontation is to
have a plan of action before you even consider approaching her. If you don't know what you want her to do, then I suggest you not confront. Know what you want from her, and if she won't cooperate, then be prepared to take some sort of action (no DV sort of action).
She asked if there was anything I wanted for transparency. She asked if I wanted her to leave. I told her those weren't decisions I was ready to make right then.
It seems as if she practically laid it out for you. She asked if there was anything you needed to show you proof. She asked if you wanted her to leave. Your answer was that you weren't ready to make those decisions right now?
Then why the heck did you confront her? To have a WW respond this way is very rare, and you lost a great opportunity. I don't mean to knock Ready's quotes, but using the "I'll have to think about it" or "I'm not ready to make those decisions right now"...... are fine as a response when she throws something at you and catches you off guard. IMHO, it's not the appropriate response to use if you confront your WW......b/c you went into the confrontation expecting her to cooperate or not to cooperate. Either way, you have to be ready with a plan of action.
And then just like that she was back to her manipulative little ways.
Sure, b/c she saw an indecisive man who didn't know what he wanted. If you are not going to have boundaries, then she isn't going to respect any.
I'll admit I thought being discovered (again) would provide some sort of awakening like what have I been doing?
I wish LBH's would get this idea out of their heads that they are going to say something that will shock their W awake. This idea has proven time after time that the H is not going to say something that will cause her to smack her forehead and suddenly become her old self again. The closest thing I've seen that works (and it's not words, it's action) is when the H is walking away. When he is dumping her, and she knows he means business. He can't do as some type of pretense or gamble. She'll recognize what he's trying to do if he tells her, "I'm packing my bags........I'm walking to the door....... I'm opening the door.......I'm stepping through the door, have you awaken yet?"
I suggest that when you feel the urge to confront, you discuss it with the board first. Give it a two or three days, at least, if possible, okay?
I'd given it a month. I'd seen these suspicious phone numbers and sat on it.
Not sure where to go from here then. I'm tired of being disrespected. I don't want to be an indecisive man with no boundaries.
I had planned to talk to her to say, you can either stay and work on the MR but I won't be your Plan B. I was discouraged from ultimatums.
I'm confused. Lonely. I get tricked by her hooks of flickering affection. I fall down. I miss my old marriage. I'm worn out.
Yup...it´s about YOUR life Si. It´s about the ACTIONS you take.
Part of me wishes I had threatened to file.
She'll recognize what he's trying to do if he tells her, "I'm packing my bags........I'm walking to the door....... I'm opening the door.......I'm stepping through the door, have you awaken yet?"
Actions
Yes, we're still on! Am going to try and catch up on your thread and will then head over.
I'd given it a month. I'd seen these suspicious phone numbers and sat on it.
Not sure where to go from here then. I'm tired of being disrespected. I don't want to be an indecisive man with no boundaries.
I had planned to talk to her to say, you can either stay and work on the MR but I won't be your Plan B. I was discouraged from ultimatums.
I'm confused. Lonely. I get tricked by her hooks of flickering affection. I fall down. I miss my old marriage. I'm worn out.
Hang in there si13. Your old M is gone. Set boundaries, backed by action. "If you continue to do X, I will do Y".
Man, just had an amazing lunch with AnotherStander. I sure am grateful to be able to sit down and talk the same langauge with someone about what's going on. Thank you so much AS. The time was invaluable.
Feeling encouraged to forge ahead. Seeing some things a little more clearly. Understanding some of what I'm resolved about.
It was my pleasure, sometimes it's hard to picture who we're talking to on the other end of these messages but you really impressed me as a kind, warm-hearted, intelligent person with a beautiful spirit and real love for your wife. I know it's hard to imagine now but you are going to thrive whether you reconcile or move on, there's no question in my mind of that. We'll have to do it again soon!
We'll have to do it again soon!
Party in Las Vegas!
AS if I ever come to big D again, we are meeting for lunch!
Man, just had an amazing lunch with AnotherStander. I sure am grateful to be able to sit down and talk the same langauge with someone about what's going on. Thank you so much AS. The time was invaluable.
Feeling encouraged to forge ahead. Seeing some things a little more clearly. Understanding some of what I'm resolved about.
Thats awesome! I have said it before, I will say it again. We should have an LBS meetup once a year. I would honestly attend.
That would be cool. Too bad I'm in the NE. Me and my kid brother would move to TX in a heartbeat. He went on vacation down there for a week, was about to get on a plane to return home and wound up staying down there for 3 months with his buddy. The only reason he came home was because my father was on his deathbed in '12.
I would move down there in a heartbeat if it wasn't for family and S1. We are conservative country boys living in the greater NYC/NJ area.
Party in Las Vegas!
I've never been! It's on my "some day" list :-)
AS if I ever come to big D again, we are meeting for lunch!
Would be a pleasure!
Thats awesome! I have said it before, I will say it again. We should have an LBS meetup once a year. I would honestly attend.
Years ago there were some informal DB get-togethers that were organized, I can't remember where but it was pretty far from me and why I didn't go. The rules here about sharing private contact info have since been tightened up quite a bit which I totally understand. But it has definitely made such things all but impossible to organize.
Too bad I'm in the NE. Me and my kid brother would move to TX in a heartbeat.
I do like it here (born and raised), but one day I may retire to the Ozarks. I go there once a year and really love it there. I would love to have a small place in the woods, all natural beauty, no taking care of a yard. Just hike, kayak and work on my art. Man that would be sweet!
Si, this is the quote from the movie Swingers I was talking about, I've never seen the movie but these lines describe the "save your marriage by not saving it" dynamic quite well:
MIKE
And what if I don't want to give up on her?
ROB
You don't call.
MIKE
But you said I shouldn't call if I wanted to give up on her.
ROB
Right.
MIKE
So I don't call either way.
ROB
Right.
MIKE
So what's the difference?
ROB
The only difference between giving up and not giving up is if you take her back when she wants to come back. See, you can't do anything to make her want to come back. You can only do things to make her not want to come back.
MIKE
So the only difference is if I forget about her or pretend to forget about her.
ROB
Right.
MIKE
Well that [censored].
ROB
It [censored].
MIKE
So it's almost a retroactive decision. So I could, like, let's say, forget about her and when she comes back make like I just pretended to forget about her.
ROB
Right...or more likely the opposite.
MIKE
Right... Wait, what do you mean?
ROB
I mean first you'll pretend not to care, not call - whatever, and then, eventually, you really won't care.
MIKE
Unless she comes back first.
ROB
Ah, see, that's the thing. Somehow they don't come back until you really don't care anymore.
MIKE
There's the rub.
ROB
There's the rub.
There's the rub indeed. I'm still too fresh not to care. Working on it but my W is trying hard to keep me stirred up.
Last night she told me all about her new email, computer and some other things that she was given at work acknowledging her sort of promotion within her workplace, at least being recognized. I congratulated her, said I was proud, but didn't go over the top. She asked if I was jealous??!!!! I didn't know where this was going but I soon figured it out. I reassured her I was very proud of her hard work.
She then stopped me later before we went to bed and said, why didn't you seem happier for me when I told you about my new things at work? I said, what do you mean? She said well I just feel like my sisters, family and friends would have been a lot happier to congratulate me. (In my mind I was thinking, well they weren't just deceived AGAIN about whether or not you're faithful to them in marriage).
She brought up a time when I was insecure years ago and she had begun doing music for church and I didn't pay much attention to her. She could feel my indifference then, jealousy and disinterest.
I told her I was sorry for that time, but this was different. Especially because I came back inside from playing with our kids and congratulated her AGAIN to say how proud I was!!!
WTF is she getting at? If you don't want to be with me, why do you care about whether or not I recognize you?????
********
I decided tonight I will express my desire for a boundary. Going to say, I will continue to give you the time and space you need, find yourself, find your voice. But what I won't do is be your Plan B or be in an open marriage. This kind of disrespect I will not tolerate and quite frankly it concerns me that it is so easy for you to lie to me.
I told her this morning I'd like to speak with her tonight. She then asked a few minutes later, "Is this a scary talk?"
Bad idea. Boundaries are things you do....not things you say. LBSs think they have to continually say things. You need to avoid R talks, not begin them.
She’s mocking you dude and that would piss the $hit out of me.
You don’t express your desire for a boundary. You set one.
I am not plan b is not a good boundary. Why? Because you are. Now what?
This is what happens when you let people walk all over you.
Before your talk tonight. What is your boundary? What are the consequences of/when she breaks it? You can bet your bottom dollar she will test you.
LH is very wise. I would heed his advice.
Si, what I mean by boundaries are not what you say, it is what you do. For instance. "I will not tolerate disrespectful talk."
The next time she verbally disrespects you you say: "I will not allow myself to be talked to this way." Then walk away. THAT is a boundary.
I appreciate the feedback gents. I guess this is more in response to what happened with discovery earlier this week that I've said nothing about. She admitted to calling a number that she'd hoped was her APs to get in touch with him again because she's lonely and thought we were over.
I've said nothing about it. Taken no position. She asked if I wanted her to leave and what things did I want in transparency.
So I feel like I haven't done anything but just roll over. I thought I should take the opportunity not to give an ultimatum but to say that I would not be in an open marriage or being Plan B.
Did I miss my window? I get that I haven't manned up, I've given her my balls. I want to change that.
No you haven’t missed your chance to ask for your balls back.
Tell her you have thought about it and this is what you need moving forward to continue in this marriage.
Transparency
MC
Etc
Etc
Etc
Now before saying it. What are the consequences when she says no?
Divorce?
Separation?
What?
No you haven’t missed your chance to ask for your balls back.
Tell her you have thought about it and this is what you need moving forward to continue in this marriage.
Transparency
MC
Etc
Etc
Etc
Now before saying it. What are the consequences when she says no?
Divorce?
Separation?
What?
Yeah, I guess that's the rub. I'd like to think I'm tired enough to move on with all the disrespect. 2PAs 1EA and the lying and dishonesty for the last 18 months. At some point, I've had enough.
I don't know if I'm there. But I'm no longer pursuing someone that wants the same things I want, so the writing is clearly on the wall then if she continues in the As.
Yes you have to show you are not plan b and not going to get strung along. Thats why I stopped all pursuit, dropped the rope, signed the D without blinking an eye, found a house to live in and started seeing a nice young woman occasionally.
Yes I pretty much shut the door on my EXWW and any possibility of her wanting to R by dating. But that was my choice, because I care about me and my happiness. Im sure my message is loud and clear to my EXWW that I was to be the first choice and now im no choice at all.
Again I would suggest not dating until you are ready and until you truly have zero desire to R. My EXWW pushed me to where I am now with her behavior. Which is honestly what she was trying to do.
There's the rub indeed. I'm still too fresh not to care.
It takes time to get there, and that time varies from person to person. But WAS's have some kind of crazy radar for knowing when the LBS is really detached versus just pretending to be detached.
She then stopped me later before we went to bed and said, why didn't you seem happier for me when I told you about my new things at work? I said, what do you mean? She said well I just feel like my sisters, family and friends would have been a lot happier to congratulate me. (In my mind I was thinking, well they weren't just deceived AGAIN about whether or not you're faithful to them in marriage).
OK so this is where validation gets tough because you just want to talk some sense into her, right? "But I was excited for you, how can you not see that???" But instead just listen to what she says, and validate. "It sounds like you are upset that I didn't express excitement about this, is that how you feel?" "Yes I just feel like you didn't say much about it." "I am sorry I made you feel that way, I am very excited for you, that's a great accomplishment."
She brought up a time when I was insecure years ago and she had begun doing music for church and I didn't pay much attention to her. She could feel my indifference then, jealousy and disinterest.
I told her I was sorry for that time, but this was different. Especially because I came back inside from playing with our kids and congratulated her AGAIN to say how proud I was!!!
I understand, it's abundantly frustrating! This is where the LBS has to take the moral high road and not get drawn into an argument. She feels the way she feels even if it doesn't make sense. Validation is NOT agreeing with her, that's the beauty of it. You are simply acknowledging that she feels that way, and allowing her room to have those feelings.
I decided tonight I will express my desire for a boundary. Going to say, I will continue to give you the time and space you need, find yourself, find your voice. But what I won't do is be your Plan B or be in an open marriage. This kind of disrespect I will not tolerate and quite frankly it concerns me that it is so easy for you to lie to me.
I told her this morning I'd like to speak with her tonight. She then asked a few minutes later, "Is this a scary talk?"
Just to remind you what we talked about yesterday- the boundary MUST have a consequence or it's meaningless. This type of boundary is a tricky one because the only consequence it can really have is separation or divorce. Like I told you yesterday, don't pursue this unless you are ready to state the boundary AND the consequence, and know in your heart that if it comes down to it you are ready to pursue that consequence through actions. As Steve and LH said, boundaries are about actions. If she ignores the boundary then you must take action, because if you don't then she loses whatever respect she may have still had for you. The boundary is for you, not a trick to "snap her out of it" or "get her attention". It is you deciding you will not tolerate her affairs AT ALL and if she pursues one then that's it, no more chances, you will proceed with separation or divorce immediately. If you are not 100% sure you can do that then give yourself more time. A week, a month, 6 months, whatever it takes until you are 100% sure.
"WTF is she getting at? If you don't want to be with me, why do you care about whether or not I recognize you?????"
One of two reasons is manipulation and validation as her backup plan, the other is maybe she does actually care? But if she did? Wouldn't her actions show it? Believe none of what they say and half of what they do. Stop feeding their ego's. Your are proud of her... That's enough. You are not her sister, her mother, etc. You are her husband. She shouldn't expect the same emotional reaction from someone who wasn't raised within her family. It would however be you're responsibility to respond in her language, if you were on good terms. But she fired you as her husband remember?
Something I observed and realized in my sich over the last 7 months from reading and therapy. When two people are dating, they have a lot in common. But when they are married, especially when kids are involved. Have you noticed that the dynamics of our model of relationships and parenting seeps out from what our parents modeled for us? Wether it be dysfunctional or not? I noticed a lot of my father coming out in me after my son was born on how I respond to things. I'm not nearly has hard headed or verbally abrasive as he was, but it comes out. I came from a conflict family. In other words we would discuss EVERYTHING from emotions, to quarrels, to theories and mindsets, etc. My W family not so much. They are great conversationalists, but avoid conflict. Thus having poor boundaries, expression, assertiveness.
Just using that dynamic as an example. What I am saying is that, it is good to learn how to respond to meet your W emotional needs, if you are on good terms. But if W is cheating, second guessing the M, using achievement moments for validation? Why would she deserve it? The door swings both ways. if she acted like a wife you would treat her like ones if she treated you like her husband then you would act like one
"WTF is she getting at? If you don't want to be with me, why do you care about whether or not I recognize you?????"
One of two reasons is manipulation and validation as her backup plan, the other is maybe she does actually care? But if she did? Wouldn't her actions show it? Believe none of what they say and half of what they do. Stop feeding their ego's. Your are proud of her... That's enough. You are not her sister, her mother, etc. You are her husband. She shouldn't expect the same emotional reaction from someone who wasn't raised within her family. It would however be you're responsibility to respond in her language, if you were on good terms. But she fired you as her husband remember?
Something I observed and realized in my sich over the last 7 months from reading and therapy. When two people are dating, they have a lot in common. But when they are married, especially when kids are involved. Have you noticed that the dynamics of our model of relationships and parenting seeps out from what our parents modeled for us? Wether it be dysfunctional or not? I noticed a lot of my father coming out in me after my son was born on how I respond to things. I'm not nearly has hard headed or verbally abrasive as he was, but it comes out. I came from a conflict family. In other words we would discuss EVERYTHING from emotions, to quarrels, to theories and mindsets, etc. My W family not so much. They are great conversationalists, but avoid conflict. Thus having poor boundaries, expression, assertiveness.
Just using that dynamic as an example. What I am saying is that, it is good to learn how to respond to meet your W emotional needs, if you are on good terms. But if W is cheating, second guessing the M, using achievement moments for validation? Why would she deserve it? The door swings both ways. if she acted like a wife you would treat her like ones if she treated you like her husband then you would act like one
This is great insight IHCLACS. I have actually seen some things in my MIL over the years. She's very strong, very proud, but boy, she sure does fish to be affirmed ALOT. This looks suspiciously familiar.
Man, my W is really lost. All of these mixed signals. Not much to do with me at our Ds award ceremony this morning, but told me ILY when we left for work.
I just feel like I do need to address the dishonesty and secrecy if she wants to work for something. I'm fine to give her time and space (lots of DB and GAL for me) but she can't have everything. I'd like to see some transparency, it doesn't have to be MC right away again, IC is fine.
I just feel like I do need to address the dishonesty and secrecy if she wants to work for something. I'm fine to give her time and space (lots of DB and GAL for me) but she can't have everything. I'd like to see some transparency, it doesn't have to be MC right away again, IC is fine.
Again how are you going to address it?
S: W I won't be in a relationship with someone who lies and is dishonest.
W: ok
You then catch her in another lie. What are the consequences?
On a side note. What does the word transparency mean to you?
I told her this morning I'd like to speak with her tonight.
DB rule #1- Do Not Initiate R talks.
DO not bring it up. Be supper busy doing something. If she brings it up:
"I can't talk right now. I have something important to do." then leave.
I guess the answer is if I can't hold fast to a boundary consequence, to just continue DBing.
Since the discovery of at least her attempt to reach out to old AP happened this week, I just feel so f********* angry and the need to tell her. But like Steve says, if she chose to gangbang 100 dudes, I should let it roll off my back.
My boundary can be internal I suppose, not to strike fear or provide a wake up experience, but for myself. I am closer and closer to being resolved to being done with this little "find myself" experiment. I want my self respect. And I intend to exercise it if I see this b*********** anymore.
I'm being more than reasonable providing for her, taking care of our kids, while she wallows in "I think I want a D, but will stay here to go out and party while I wait for a job".
I'm detaching just enough now to feel better about my success after it's potentially all over.
But like Steve says, if she chose to gangbang 100 dudes, I should let it roll off my back.
WTF??? No you file for divorce.
My boundary can be internal I suppose, not to strike fear or provide a wake up experience, but for myself.
WTF does this mean?
I'm being more than reasonable providing for her, taking care of our kids, while she wallows in "I think I want a D, but will stay here to go out and party while I wait for a job".
Do you think this makes you more attractive or less attractive in her eyes?
Look man, I know this is tough but if you continue like this you are going to be in excruciating pain for a really long time.
You received a gift by having a face to face with one of the best vets on here and I am not sure you walked away any wiser.
You're at 11 pages, please start a new thread and do the linking like you did last time!Man, my W is really lost. All of these mixed signals. Not much to do with me at our Ds award ceremony this morning, but told me ILY when we left for work.
Well it's not really mixed signals, she just "loves" you as a friend, or a family member (like a brother or uncle or something).
I just feel like I do need to address the dishonesty and secrecy if she wants to work for something.
But she hasn't given you any indication that she wants to work on anything, right? Just says she is confused and trying to "find herself". So if you apply any pressure to her she's not going to react well to it.
I'd like to see some transparency, it doesn't have to be MC right away again, IC is fine.
"Transparency" would be her giving you full access to her social media accounts and phone. That's not something you can demand from a WAS unless she has expressed interest in reconciling, and she's not there yet. Not even close by the sound of it. I think you said she's about to start IC again soon didn't you? Unfortunately that's not likely to help your sitch any, most IC's are just great at "telling them what they want to hear".