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Posted By: curtis7 Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 04/11/19 03:12 AM
Link to Part 1:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2841771#Post2841771
Link to Part 2:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2842502#Post2842502

Summary to date:
W was unhappy in 2018 and probably a few years earlier about her lack of career advancement, responsibilities of being a mother and wife, and lack of connection in our MR. She became involved in an EA with a co-worker in August. She was going to an IC without my knowledge and came to the determination that I was the cause of her unhappiness. BD and IHS in November. I made all of the classic mistakes of begging, pleading, doing all the chores, etc. In November, she was seduced by a 25 year old pickup artist (OM1) at a downtown bar one night and had a PA a couple weeks later which evolved into a limerant relationship. W went deeply underground with her smartphone when I found out and confronted. She has experienced the highest of highs when OM contacts her and the lowest of lows when ignored. She has transferred the limerance to OM2/3 and then OM1 comes back into the fray. W has distanced herself from anyone of strong moral character and primarily interacts with a recently divorced woman that became her BFF last year. She has been turned on to a GGW lifestyle with sexting, going out more often, and trolling for and probably hooking up with guys on dating apps. She blatantly would text OM and divorced BFF for hours in front of me the last 2 months living together prior to physical separation. W bought her own house and moved out in early April. We have arranged 50/50 custody of our kids, S8 and D4, rotating every few days.

I would characterize myself of experiencing PTSD symptoms after BD/PA discovery for about 4 months. Way too much pursuit, pressure, and R talk. I became obsessed with snooping and trying to identify and over-analyze everything that went wrong in our MR that led us to this state. In doing so, I pushed her farther and farther away. I've heard just about every WW catch phrase from her along with way. She has re-written our MR history and focuses on all the negatives. I've been doing a much better job of GAL and detaching since late February. Contact right now is like a business relationship, mostly limited to co-parenting and logistics.

I continue to read self-help books and listen to podcasts daily. My MR is not making any progress, but I am personally thanks to the help I've received here. Long way to go and I'm still standing...
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 04/11/19 03:19 AM
Originally Posted by LH19
C,
Why would you want to invite your W who is sleeping with other men to your birthday party?
If you donít stop the cake eating you are going to be in for a vey long painful period of limbo.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander

No. It's OK to invite her to join you for the kids' bdays but not your own.

LH & AS, thanks for the 2x4. I don't need a WW around to spoil my 40th bday party. Although, I'm sure she would be quite fond of eating the cake.
Posted By: IHCLACS Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 04/11/19 03:25 AM
Curtis it hurts. It hurts to breath, it hurts to sleep, it hurts to eat, it hurts to think compulsively, it hurts to keep constantly looking for assessment, solutions, reasons, faults, blame, choices, decisions, actions, behaviors. You and I got to let it go bud. Focus on the present. Try not to think of anything but your surroundings, one minute, one hour, one day at a time. Try to be present, and avoid past and future thoughts, try to GAL, try to even temporary make yourself happy even uf if means partaking in distractions, but healthy pleasurable activities, and shift the focus on yourself and off of her.

You have not cheated. You are of moral value, self worth and charactor. That must mean something. Be strong.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 04/22/19 02:34 AM
Been a little while since I posted, no major developments as Iím almost 3 weeks into physical S with WW. I thought Iíd give a quick update on some interaction with her today. I was out of town for the weekend GAL. Returned home early this morning and picked up the kids from her house to go to an Easter service and celebration. It was my first time at her place and I stood at the door. She said I could come in. I took one step in and waited in the foyer for the kids to gather their stuff. I really had no interest going farther into a place my W likely uses to have sex with OM.

She texted in the afternoon asking if she could come over and ride her horse. I replied yes. Then, apparently just before she left she called from outside while I was cleaning inside and away from my phone. The call went to VM and she left without coming inside the house. The VM was about S8ís backpack and her wanting to borrow equipment to change the oil on her car (Iíve always done that for her BTW). She snipped that I wasnít answering her calls or texts in the message in an annoyed tone. I didnít appreciate that. I called her back layer and asked why she didnít come in. She said she could read people and could tell that I was upset this morning when picking up the kids. She said I didnít even look her in the eye. I told her I wasnít comfortable going inside because it was my first time there and I had never been invited there. She said your kids are living there and you could come in to check it out. She said she felt weird about coming into our house too after separation and didnít think I wanted her inside. I told her we should talk through those things when she feels that way. She said she wasnít trying to be passive aggressive by leaving without coming in. She planned to come over again early evening for the oil change stuff and car jack.

When she came over, she came inside and was receiving texts from OM2 when I was standing there talking to her. She stopped what she was doing to reply to him. I had enough of that and felt it was time to establish a boundary. We then had the following conversation over the next few minutes where I remained calm and confident:
H: ďI would appreciate it if you not text him while you are in this house.Ē (She became upset and started to walk away.)
W: ďIím not allowed to text in this house?Ē
H: ďThatís not what I said, I donít appreciate you texting other men in front of me.Ē
W: ďYouíre paranoid, there is no other guy.Ē
H: ďReally? You were texting other men for the last month that you were living here.Ē
W: ďIt wasnít another guy, it was BFF.Ē (I saw OMs initials on her screen when she was standing next to me)
H: ďWhat about the guy texting you pictures of his truck last week when I was saying goodbye to the kids in your car?Ē
W: ďHeís just a friend.Ē
H: ďOkay, yes, a friend.Ē
W: ďYour obviously getting advice from somewhere because all of your responses since I moved are careful, diplomatic, and short. The messages are business like.Ē
H: ďIím trying not to be overly critical and judgmental as that was one of my shortcomings in the past.Ē
W: ďItís okay to have an opinion on things.Ē
H: ďThat makes sense.Ē (She was annoyed by this response as it was diplomatic too.)
H: ďTell me more about how you feel we should interact.Ē
W: ďWeíre parents and need to communicate about the kids.
H: ďYes, we are and thatís about all we communicate about since you moved out.Ē
H: ďIf you ever want to talk about anything Iím here to listen.Ē
W: ďI donít talk with anyone. You and I have never been chatty. I donít feel the need to share my day with people.Ē
W: ďI have a lot going on right now.Ē
H: ďI understand, perhaps we can talk about house visits to address the awkwardness when you settle in more.Ē
W: ďOkay.Ē
H: ďLater.Ē
W: ďBye.Ē

I know there is always room for improvement and this probably crossed too deep into R talk. Hopefully it was worth it and she respects my boundary.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 04/22/19 10:00 AM
C,

Bad exchange dude. Just put a sign in front of your house that flashes " I'm plan B." If you ever want to talk about anything I'm here to listen? What if she wants to talk about the other men? You are not her therapist or her emotional tampon.

Ok weak boundary set. What are the consequences if/ when she breaks it?

You are new to this so you are going to make mistakes, just try to minimize them.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 04/22/19 03:28 PM
Originally Posted by LH19

Ok weak boundary set. What are the consequences if/ when she breaks it?

The consequence is that I ask her to leave my house.

Her response to my validation over the past few weeks was interesting. Do WWís typically shutdown most conversation when their statements are met with validation? Itís literally down to kid talks only and nothing else of substance. Is this to be expected for a while until she feels a void and wants to open up more or will this disconnection continue to grow?

I ask because I wasnít a great conversationalist prior to BD. Improving that was one of my 180s, but it is gone completely since she moved out.

Iíve reached 100 posts!! The saying is right that things have to get worse before they get better. I went back and read all of the posts on my threads since joining and I see very few positive signs in my R, mostly deterioration. I need to continue applying the principles properly and working on myself. The latter I feel Iíve done a good job on. Not losing hope and praying my next 100 posts contain more positive results.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 04/22/19 03:37 PM
C,

I hope you are ready to enforce it.

You canít develop a connection with her while she is sleeping with other men. She is going to have to hit rock bottom for you to reconnect.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 04/22/19 03:52 PM
Originally Posted by curtis7
Originally Posted by LH19

Ok weak boundary set. What are the consequences if/ when she breaks it?

The consequence is that I ask her to leave my house.

Her response to my validation over the past few weeks was interesting. Do WWís typically shutdown most conversation when their statements are met with validation? Itís literally down to kid talks only and nothing else of substance. Is this to be expected for a while until she feels a void and wants to open up more or will this disconnection continue to grow?

I ask because I wasnít a great conversationalist prior to BD. Improving that was one of my 180s, but it is gone completely since she moved out.

Iíve reached 100 posts!! The saying is right that things have to get worse before they get better. I went back and read all of the posts on my threads since joining and I see very few positive signs in my R, mostly deterioration. I need to continue applying the principles properly and working on myself. The latter I feel Iíve done a good job on. Not losing hope and praying my next 100 posts contain more positive results.


Validation will be met with a variety of responses. However, when a spouse is looking for a way out, they will blame EVERYTHING and ANYTHING. Including validation. Look, with validating it is a darned if you do and darned if you don't. If you don't validate then you don't understand her feelings. If you do you've been coached and are being clinical. So here is where it turns on its head.........

Validate her FOR YOU. Not for her. Detachment is very simple. Detachment is not reacting emotionally to what she says or does.

Quote
Her response to my validation over the past few weeks was interesting. Do WWís typically shutdown most conversation when their statements are met with validation? Itís literally down to kid talks only and nothing else of substance. Is this to be expected for a while until she feels a void and wants to open up more or will this disconnection continue to grow?

I ask because I wasnít a great conversationalist prior to BD. Improving that was one of my 180s, but it is gone completely since she moved out.


This is NOT detachment. This is the opposite of detachment.

So validate her FOR YOU. Not for her. Whether she likes it. Whether she doesn't. The validation is so you a) do not get in a tit-for-tat with her and b) it prevents you from saying things you shouldn't say.

Talking ONLY about the kids is perfect for your sitch right now. In fact, I'd suggest it. Certainly worrying about who she is texting is not detachment, I don't care where she is. Let her go to get her back.

You got this man.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 04/22/19 04:01 PM
Originally Posted by curtis7

When she came over, she came inside and was receiving texts from OM2 when I was standing there talking to her. She stopped what she was doing to reply to him. I had enough of that and felt it was time to establish a boundary. We then had the following conversation over the next few minutes where I remained calm and confident:


I agree with LH that it's a weak, undefined, hard to enforce boundary. If you're going to have a boundary about texting then just make it texting in general, not specifically OM because then you've got to snoop over her shoulder to see WHO she's texting (and that is not DB'ing). So if you're having a convo with her and she starts texting, just tell her "I would appreciate it if you would wait until we're finished to text."

Quote
W: ďYouíre paranoid, there is no other guy.Ē
H: ďReally? You were texting other men for the last month that you were living here.Ē
W: ďIt wasnít another guy, it was BFF.Ē (I saw OMs initials on her screen when she was standing next to me)
H: ďWhat about the guy texting you pictures of his truck last week when I was saying goodbye to the kids in your car?Ē
W: ďHeís just a friend.Ē
H: ďOkay, yes, a friend.Ē


If you know this for a fact then just reply "We both know that's not true" and then walk away. Don't get drawn into "he said/ she said" conversations with her. But if you know then why talk about it. There's no point. Don't bring it up.

Quote
H: ďTell me more about how you feel we should interact.Ē
W: ďWeíre parents and need to communicate about the kids.
H:ďYes, we are and thatís about all we communicate about since you moved out.Ē


She is 100% right, your convos should ONLY be about the kids.

Quote
H: ďIf you ever want to talk about anything Iím here to listen."


Don't invite her to talk. If she talks then listen and validate. If she doesn't then just discuss the kids and that's it. When you say things like this it's just pressure, and right now she wants zero pressure. I'm not saying be cold/ rude/ indifferent. LOVINGLY detach. The idea is to keep the road home paved and smooth, but you don't throw a winch on her bumper and try to drag her down the road.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 04/22/19 04:27 PM
Originally Posted by Steve85

Validation will be met with a variety of responses. However, when a spouse is looking for a way out, they will blame EVERYTHING and ANYTHING. Including validation. Look, with validating it is a darned if you do and darned if you don't. If you don't validate then you don't understand her feelings. If you do you've been coached and are being clinical. So here is where it turns on its head.........

Detachment is very simple. Detachment is not reacting emotionally to what she says or does.

So validate her FOR YOU. Not for her. Whether she likes it. Whether she doesn't. The validation is so you a) do not get in a tit-for-tat with her and b) it prevents you from saying things you shouldn't say.


Steve,

Understood, in my case and where sheís at, validation prevents the escalation of conversations by keeping my emotions out of it. It keeps me from being drawn into talks that will likely turn south and be steps in the wrong direction from detachment.

Question for you, Iíve been reading many sitches recently and recall reading a post from you on a hypothetical for a LBH ready to give up along the lines of what if a few months from now W ended the A, then a few months later she started to work on the MR, and within a year the two of you were back together. I canít find it now, does this ring a bell and do you have a link to the post?
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 04/22/19 05:00 PM
This one?

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2845143#Post2845143
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 04/22/19 05:15 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
She is going to have to hit rock bottom for you to reconnect.

What does rock bottom look like? Iím sure if I filed that could accelerate her reaching that point, although it may be met with a different response than if she reaches rock bottom on her own.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 04/22/19 05:20 PM

No, I think it was from a few months ago, because it contained something like what if by April...., and what if by August....
Posted By: LH19 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 04/22/19 05:28 PM
Originally Posted by curtis7
What does rock bottom look like?

Rock bottom is when she keeps getting played by these young pick-up artists and other men and she starts to:

1) She sees you as someone of extremely high value
2) She views a relationship with you as something much better than a life with someone else or a life alone
3) She's willing to work to win you

Originally Posted by curtis7
Iím sure if I filed that could accelerate her reaching that point, although it may be met with a different response than if she reaches rock bottom on her own.

If you were to file right now she would LHAO thanking you for doing all the work and would let everyone know you were the one that wanted the D.

Curtis, I am not going to blow smoke up your A$$. Your W is the lowest of the lows when it comes to WW wives. This is really going to take a long time and I really think you need to think about if this is a marriage worth saving.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 04/22/19 05:33 PM
Originally Posted by AnotherStander

Don't invite her to talk. If she talks then listen and validate. If she doesn't then just discuss the kids and that's it. When you say things like this it's just pressure, and right now she wants zero pressure. I'm not saying be cold/ rude/ indifferent. LOVINGLY detach. The idea is to keep the road home paved and smooth, but you don't throw a winch on her bumper and try to drag her down the road.

Iím struggling with how to come off as bright, cheery, and upbeat around the woman that is actively cheating on me. Iím able to pull it off often, but I fail to do it consistently and she knows me well enough to sense my mood when Iím unable.

I know detachment is the answer, but implementing this during an active A is a challenge. Especially when you find the behavior of the WW so disgusting and immoral. I need to some help on how to put a smile on my face around her during these occasions.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 04/22/19 06:18 PM
Originally Posted by curtis7
Iím struggling with how to come off as bright, cheery, and upbeat around the woman that is actively cheating on me.


You need to get to the point where you are bright, cheery and upbeat IN SPITE of her. Let her wallow in the mud, you take the moral high road to happiness.

Quote
I know detachment is the answer, but implementing this during an active A is a challenge.


For most people an A makes detachment easier. Do you really want to be attached to someone that doesn't love you and is actively engaging in an A?

Quote
I need to some help on how to put a smile on my face around her during these occasions.


Don't put a smile on for her sake, but try to get to the point where you are happy and smiling regardless of whether she is there or not. It takes time but you'll get there.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 04/22/19 07:01 PM

Rock bottom is when she is begging you take her back.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 04/22/19 07:07 PM


You are responsible for your own happiness. Do not give her that power.

Stay focused on the present. Do not dwell on the past. Do not fear the future. Do things you enjoy.

Wake up, take several deep breaths and enjoy how good each one feels. Happily make the bed. One simple goal accomplished. Enjoy that. Get in the shower. Enjoy all the feelings. The warm water, the good smell.....Keep enjoying everything all day long. Enjoy completing tasks that get you closer to your goals.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 04/22/19 08:22 PM
Originally Posted by curtis7

No, I think it was from a few months ago, because it contained something like what if by April...., and what if by August....

Steve, I found it, this one:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2840791#Post2840791

I was off on the months, hypothetical was July and September. Iíve been thinking a lot about this scenario and Iíll share my thoughts in the future as I gain some more clarity.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 04/22/19 08:43 PM
Ah ok. Yes. Don't do things that will cause you to look back and think, 'only if'. This is why we generally tell LBS to make the WAS do all the work towards D.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 04/22/19 09:23 PM
Can you give some examples of the validation you gave her?

Quote
Iím struggling with how to come off as bright, cheery, and upbeat around the woman that is actively cheating on me. Iím able to pull it off often, but I fail to do it consistently and she knows me well enough to sense my mood when Iím unable.


If you have the mindset that you need to be bright and cheery to impress her feelings about you, then I think it could come across as a little fake to her. If you feel good about yourself and accomplishing some goals that have nothing to do with her, then maybe it won't be such a struggle. Feeling good about yourself is one of the reasons we promote GAL, working out, eating healthily, setting goals, etc.

Your life, your behavior/actions cannot be all about her. You cannot get good enough that will impress the WW to save the MR. Not after she's crossed the affair line. When all is said & done, it doesn't matter how much you clean house or cater to her needs.......it won't change her heart. That's the trouble with some marriage books/programs out there on the market. They are trying to sell the idea that if you start showing her how much you care and basically try to do the things you should have done long before her heart turned cold, then it will draw her back. The reason it doesn't work, is b/c she has to respect him before her heart changes. Lack of respect is the heart of waywardness. And, before he can get her respect, he has to have a healthy dose of self-respect.

The saying that gets passed around the board......"Be a man only a fool would leave".......is misunderstood by a lot of H's who have a wayward W. I googled the definition of fool, and here's the results: (as a noun) a person who acts unwisely or imprudently; a silly person. (as a verb) trick or deceive (someone); dupe. (as an adjective) foolish; silly.

So.....either way you look at it, the WW seems to fit the description of a fool.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 04/23/19 03:48 AM
Originally Posted by sandi2
Can you give some examples of the validation you gave her?

Hi Sandi! Here are a few examples:

W: "I feel we need a set schedule so the kids have a sense of normalcy, know what to expect, AND so that they don't start thinking they run the show. I would like both of us to be able to see the kids every day when humanly possible.
H: "I can see that a schedule needs to be set for the kids for the reasons you noted. We should make sure they have time with both of us because they need that."

W: "This week was not normal with moving and such. I'm open to suggestions and changes...this is just tentative to help get through the first few weeks. Possible that once the 'newness' of my place wears off for kids, this may all go out the window and we revert to the January plan or a totally different plan. Again, we need to keep an open dialogue.
H: "It must have been a really hectic and stressful week for you with the move. It sounds like the kids are excited by the newness. I will need some more time to process the schedule."

Here is another one regarding a conversation about her divorced BFF that really seemed to grind her gears:
W: "Divorced BFF's XH still hasn't removed her name from the mortgage, he was supposed to do that by February. BFF had her L send XH a letter demanding that he start the process within 10 days. XH sent a letter to their daughter's school the next day informing them that the girls were being moved to a closer school next week. This means that BFF won't see her girls everyday because she teaches at the school where they have been going. I don't know why he would move them this close to the end of the school year. XH is only changing schools to get revenge for BFF having the L send the letter."
H: "That must be very difficult for BFF to deal with. I can understand how her XH sending the letter to the school the next day could seem like a way to get back at her."
W: "Oh, don't be so diplomatic LBH."
W: "I hope that no matter what happens between us that we don't use the kids as retaliation."
H: "I just want what's best for the kids."
W: "I agree."

Originally Posted by sandi2

If you have the mindset that you need to be bright and cheery to impress her feelings about you, then I think it could come across as a little fake to her. If you feel good about yourself and accomplishing some goals that have nothing to do with her, then maybe it won't be such a struggle. Feeling good about yourself is one of the reasons we promote GAL, working out, eating healthily, setting goals, etc.

I feel I need to be bright and cheery to follow some of your rules and recommendations of other vets when interacting with WW:
12. Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times!
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment.

I do feel good about myself most of the time. I am active with friends several times a week playing volleyball, coaching little league baseball, working out, going back to church, spending time with neighbors. Also, working on projects around the house that I've put off. However, sometimes my good feelings go away due to a feeling of overwhelming disgust around her and the absolute selfishness that she demonstrates. This may be similar to how she felt/feels about me prior to BD when she felt emotionally neglected and post BD when I was pursuing and pressuring her. I really need to focus on eliminating these slip ups and remaining positive because I know they are not attractive.

Originally Posted by sandi2

Your life, your behavior/actions cannot be all about her. You cannot get good enough that will impress the WW to save the MR. Not after she's crossed the affair line. When all is said & done, it doesn't matter how much you clean house or cater to her needs.......it won't change her heart. That's the trouble with some marriage books/programs out there on the market. They are trying to sell the idea that if you start showing her how much you care and basically try to do the things you should have done long before her heart turned cold, then it will draw her back. The reason it doesn't work, is b/c she has to respect him before her heart changes. Lack of respect is the heart of waywardness. And, before he can get her respect, he has to have a healthy dose of self-respect.

Yes, the fundamental problem is that she doesn't respect me right now. Her words and actions show the lack of respect. I'm beginning to accept that some good tough love is needed to regain self-respect and have any chance of respect from her in the future.

Originally Posted by sandi2

The saying that gets passed around the board......"Be a man only a fool would leave".......is misunderstood by a lot of H's who have a wayward W. I googled the definition of fool, and here's the results: (as a noun) a person who acts unwisely or imprudently; a silly person. (as a verb) trick or deceive (someone); dupe. (as an adjective) foolish; silly.

So.....either way you look at it, the WW seems to fit the description of a fool.

Lol, very interesting!! I never thought about it that way. I always assumed that my W couldn't be a fool. Although, when considering the choices she's made, the definition seems to fit.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 04/23/19 02:24 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by curtis7
What does rock bottom look like?

Rock bottom is when she keeps getting played by these young pick-up artists and other men and she starts to:

1) She sees you as someone of extremely high value
2) She views a relationship with you as something much better than a life with someone else or a life alone
3) She's willing to work to win you

Curtis, I am not going to blow smoke up your A$$. Your W is the lowest of the lows when it comes to WW wives. This is really going to take a long time and I really think you need to think about if this is a marriage worth saving.


Originally Posted by Ready2Change

Rock bottom is when she is begging you take her back.

LH & R2C, good reality check. I can appreciate why this could take years to play out if ever. She has not shown any signs of remorse and continues to move deeper into WW with an utter lack of respect for me.

I am contemplating if I want to live in limbo for years and the effect that has on my own personal happiness and impact on my children. I do have a timeline in mind if there is no positive improvement in the R and Iím not willing to be a martyr indefinitely.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 04/23/19 03:04 PM
Originally Posted by curtis7
Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by curtis7
What does rock bottom look like?

Rock bottom is when she keeps getting played by these young pick-up artists and other men and she starts to:

1) She sees you as someone of extremely high value
2) She views a relationship with you as something much better than a life with someone else or a life alone
3) She's willing to work to win you

Curtis, I am not going to blow smoke up your A$$. Your W is the lowest of the lows when it comes to WW wives. This is really going to take a long time and I really think you need to think about if this is a marriage worth saving.


Originally Posted by Ready2Change

Rock bottom is when she is begging you take her back.

LH & R2C, good reality check. I can appreciate why this could take years to play out if ever. She has not shown any signs of remorse and continues to move deeper into WW with an utter lack of respect for me.

I am contemplating if I want to live in limbo for years and the effect that has on my own personal happiness and impact on my children. I do have a timeline in mind if there is no positive improvement in the R and Iím not willing to be a martyr indefinitely.


I just mentioned in OrangeK's thread an ex-GF that strung me along for 2 decades. When I look back and think of all of the great women that I passed up on waiting for her I sometimes wonder how my life could have been different if I would have received help for the unresolved feelings and emotions and moved on sooner. curtis I can't remember if you are in IC. If so, great. If not, get into it ASAP. It can help you sort out what you want and not be on the hook waiting for her longer than you should.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 04/23/19 03:06 PM
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Originally Posted by curtis7
I know detachment is the answer, but implementing this during an active A is a challenge.

For most people an A makes detachment easier. Do you really want to be attached to someone that doesn't love you and is actively engaging in an A?

Sadly, and as much as I despise her choices, I do. The LBS still loves the WAS and canít flip a switch to turn that off, but instead chooses to love from a distance that doesnít apply pressure. I think thatís why so many LBS hold on to the hope that the A will end at some point and the connection can be rebuilt rather than taking the easy path of throwing in the towel and rushing into D. The LBS spends an exorbitant amount of time improving themselves, reading self-help, and learning how to strive for perfection in MR that we see how great the R could be if only given the chance. The LBS chooses to live in limbo and sacrifice some personal gratification (sex, intimacy, emotional support, reciprocated love, etc) while hoping and praying that the WAS wakes up and comes out of the fog. Every LBS should be commended for enduring this pain and standing for their MR. We didnít ask for this and no one deserves this, but we must acknowledge that we did play a role in getting to this point. We must keep focused on the long term goal and vision of a happy and mutually fulfilling MR and focus on the changes we need to make in ourselves to become a spouse only a fool would leave.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 04/23/19 03:33 PM
Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst. This is what you should be doing

The way we like to tell LBSs to handle this is to move forward by GAL, working on improvements (IC, 180s), and detach. If she gets her crap together before you've completely moved on, great. If she hasn't, then she'll regret that she didn't come to her sense sooner. Either way, YOU are back in charge of whether or not your MR is saved, not her. Taking back power can be very freeing. And it is a position of strength.

Strength is moving on with or without her.
Weakness is holding on as tight as you can hoping she comes around.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 04/23/19 03:37 PM
Thanks for your detailed examples of validation. I think one trick is to not basically repeat the same one every time, or sound like a yes man.

Quote
H: "That must be very difficult for BFF to deal with. I can understand how her XH sending the letter to the school the next day could seem like a way to get back at her."
W: "Oh, don't be so diplomatic LBH."


Her response was her telling you that she only needed you to listen to her vent. It's not necessary to reply to every time.
smile

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I feel I need to be bright and cheery to follow some of your rules and recommendations of other vets when interacting with WW:


Good! One of the most common questions is, "How do I interact with my WW". It is a method of interacting with her.
All these rules are meant to give some direction for the newcomer when they first arrive.

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However, sometimes my good feelings go away due to a feeling of overwhelming disgust around her and the absolute selfishness that she demonstrates. This may be similar to how she felt/feels about me prior to BD when she felt emotionally neglected and post BD when I was pursuing and pressuring her. I really need to focus on eliminating these slip ups and remaining positive because I know they are not attractive.


You guys can't figure women out when they are "normal", much less when they turn wayward. wink You are right about pursuit not being attractive, especially when the other person wants out. You can have a positive mental attitude about yourself, and life in general.....without pressuring those who don't want to be with you. ((hugs))
Posted By: LH19 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 04/23/19 03:41 PM
C,

You are correct to some extent but there comes a point where you have to ask yourself if you deserve to be treated this way.

Your first step should be to get some respect back from your W. Table the half hearted validation for now and let her know that it is rude to text ďanybodyĒ while at your house and she cannot come and visit her horse anytime she feels like it. I would also give her a time line to get her horse out of there or start charging board for the horse.

She will fight you on it but she will also respect you for standing up to her.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 04/23/19 03:46 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
C,

You are correct to some extent but there comes a point where you have to ask yourself if you deserve to be treated this way.

Your first step should be to get some respect back from your W. Table the half hearted validation for now and let her know that it is rude to text ďanybodyĒ while at your house and she cannot come and visit her horse anytime she feels like it. I would also give her a time line to get her horse out of there or start charging board for the horse.

She will fight you on it but she will also respect you for standing up to her.


LH is making an awesome point. The mistake LBSs make, almost every time, is thinking they can nice their WAS back. You cannot. Being nice will have her view you as weak. Manipulable. Spineless.

One way to think about this that has helped some LBSs is this: if you were dating this person, would you tolerate this behavior? Why would your standards be any lower because you' are married to them?
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/05/19 04:06 AM
Huge update...expected outcome.

So, I had the "I will NOT live in an open marriage" talk with WW tonight. She spewed rage, tried to interrupt several times and said I better go talk to my L. Here are the details.

My S8 was with her today after his baseball game and he talked to me when she came over to take care of her horse. I asked what he did today, and he said, well mostly watched TV. I asked, didn't mommy play with you and he said she was texting the whole time. Then he told me the name and it was OM2. WW told my S8 that it was the friend of a co-worker which is a lie. This is where I draw the line, when she starts lying to my kids about her PAs and covering up her infidelity, it is complete disrespect to my family.

I spent the rest of the night contemplating what action to take. I knew this talk was coming, but I was planning on waiting until either the end of this month or the end of next month so she could see more of my 180s and GAL. However, it was time for me to take back my respect. Over the past month, I have read NMMNG and the Tough Love book as well as countless sitches and posts on scripts (Starsky, Puppy Dog Tails, AllenA, Robx, R2C, Sandi2, Wonka, Txhubby, etc) for setting this boundary and I was confident this was something I needed to do for myself and my dignity.

I'll have to admit, I didn't have long to rehearse the script, but it was imperative that I take action as she was about to send me an email on taking the next steps to divide assets before seeing an attorney.

I went to her house and knocked on the door late in the evening after the kids went to sleep. Here is the exchange:

W: What's going on?
H: Maybe you should sit down, we need to talk about something S8 told me today. S8 said you were texting all afternoon with some guy named OM2.
W: No, I wasn't.
H: I'm just telling you what S8 said. The deceit has got to stop. When you lie to our children, it is disrespectful to our family, and that is where I draw the line. I've tolerated this intolerable behavior for 6 months and I will not tolerate it any longer when you lie to our children. The first 4 months were pure hell for me, but over the past 2 months I've recovered and I'm in a much better place and I like the direction I'm headed and our kids like it too. I still love you and want to work on this marriage, but I will not be a part of it when you are engaged in affairs with OM. Let's be clear about one thing, this separation was not about you having space, it was about having affairs. You made the choice to have affairs over marriage and family and will have to live with the consequences.
W: You don't know what you're talking about, there is nothing going on.
H: Please stop, we both know you're lying right now, please let me finish. I know you're having an affair with OM2, it's disrespectful to me, our marriage, and our family.
W: You don't know anything, there's nothing going on with OM2.
H: Stop, we both know your lying (holding my hand up while looking her dead in the eyes).
H: I will NOT live in an open marriage. Looks like we both have some big decisions to make.
W: We can get a divorce, I was ready to send you an email today to start dividing everything.
H: I know our marriage wasn't satisfactory for you or me. I accept my responsibility for half of that and am sorry it hurt you. The other half followed by the affairs are all on you. Marital problems need to be met with solutions, not lies and cheating. Your choice to continue cheating and make things worse and destroy our family or end the cheating and make things better and help our family.
W: You can't come to my house unannounced. Now, get out!
H: You need to think long and hard about the impact of your choices on our children. Do you think children are resilient?
W: Ours can be if we parent effectively.
H: Yes, some children are resilient, but ours don't have that choice, you are making it for them.
W: Get out and go to talk to your L!

I walked out and left.

I was extremely calm and confident throughout, while she was increasingly angered and filled with rage. I did not let it rattle me or affect my emotions. I am ready to accept and do not fear what follows. Now we'll see what develops over the coming days and weeks.

Some may feel I acted in haste, but with one OM after another with no end in sight, I felt compelled to take a stand.
Posted By: ovrrnbw Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/05/19 05:35 AM
Curtis,

I feel your pain. Been there and done that.

But this talk is just talk.

You can't tell her what to do or what you'll live with.

You can show her. Your talk was just a confrontation without action, a toothless wolf.

You have progressed but she has not felt your boundary bc your boundary is soft.

I wish you good luck moving forward.
Posted By: ovrrnbw Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/05/19 05:41 AM
What I mean is you aren't ready to take action to end it.

Sobustong. If you really aren't ready. Or great creative or go affair busting.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/05/19 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by curtis7
Huge update...expected outcome..... I felt compelled to take a stand.


What boundaries are you putting in place?

What is you plan?

So what is your next step?


Posted By: LH19 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/05/19 05:49 PM
C,

You really should come to the board before making big moves like that. Ok. You stated your boundaries. She basically laughed at them. What are the consequences?
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/05/19 06:18 PM
Quote
So, I had the "I will NOT live in an open marriage" talk with WW tonight.


Okay, let's talk about this. First of all, if you called yourself stating a boundary, then it shouldn't have been a "talk". Secondly, you went to her house, b/c the two of you are already physically separated, due to her affair. Therefore, the only consequences for dishonoring your boundary is a divorce. You see, if the couple physically separates due to an affair, then the betrayed spouse is not exactly living in an open M, except on paper. Thirdly, whenever stating a boundary, you just say what it is (no discussions, no negotiations, etc.) and then you turn and walk away. Fourthly, you don't bring up other issues when you state the boundary.

So, you were mad when S8 told you that mom had spent the time texting OM. That is understandable, and it's difficult to hear these things. However, I'm not sure if this situation fueled your action to go to her house to state your boundary, or if you saw it as an opportunity to state your boundary. Either way, I wished you had posted before you went to her house, and waited to see responses by the board.

LBS's should not approach the WS about more than one subject at a time. So, make it your rule of thumb to stick to only one subject whenever you need to address or confront her about it. You told her you would not tolerate her texting OM in front of S8. She knows there is nothing you can do about it.

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I spent the rest of the night contemplating what action to take. I knew this talk was coming, but I was planning on waiting until either the end of this month or the end of next month so she could see more of my 180s and GAL. However, it was time for me to take back my respect.


Well, once your WW moves out, there is no point in chasing her down to give the "I will not live in an open M". If you had posted how you were planning to wait for a month or more for her to see you GAL, etc.,
you probably would have been advised that it was too late to state to her that boundary.....unless you are ready to D. I mean, you can have the boundary in your own mind, but you don't have to say it to her. You just do the actions if she dishonors your boundary. Do you see what I mean? Now, if you let her move out under the pretense that she just needed some space to figure herself out and nothing was ever said about her wayward behavior.......then what you said about the boundary might be okay. It lets her know that you are now aware of the deceit and betrayal. However, considering how you waited till the last minute, I don't think you should have any expectations in her changing her behavior.....or her mind. It will push you to act, should she not follow through with the D.

Quote
I'll have to admit, I didn't have long to rehearse the script, but it was imperative that I take action as she was about to send me an email on taking the next steps to divide assets before seeing an attorney.


So you were trying to state a boundary of not living in an open M, before she could send the email. It's a little too late to state it when you are dividing up assets. Now if she were to change her mind and start hinting that she might return to the M, then you could say it. But not when she's ready to split assets.

Quote
I went to her house and knocked on the door late in the evening after the kids went to sleep. Here is the exchange:


Your timing was way off. You went after the separation. You went to her house, and you went late in the evening. Frankly, I would have probably thrown my H out, too, if he came to my house telling me he wasn't going to tolerate something I had done.......or laying out some kind of boundary for the M.

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H: Maybe you should sit down, we need to talk about something S8 told me today. S8 said you were texting all afternoon with some guy named OM2.


She is going to tell him to never discuss what he hears or sees in that house. S8 will feel he can't trust you with what he says. This a mistake I've seen many newcomers make.

Quote
I've tolerated this intolerable behavior for 6 months and I will not tolerate it any longer when you lie to our children.


Well, what are you going to do about it? Did you have a plan of action when you said this?

Quote
The first 4 months were pure hell for me, but over the past 2 months I've recovered and I'm in a much better place and I like the direction I'm headed and our kids like it too. I still love you and want to work on this marriage, but I will not be a part of it when you are engaged in affairs with OM.


You are not a part of it, b/c you are physically separated. You should not have said the kids liked it, too, nor told her you still love her and want to work on the M.

Quote
Let's be clear about one thing, this separation was not about you having space, it was about having affairs. You made the choice to have affairs over marriage and family and will have to live with the consequences.


I have to admit, I like most of that one. It helps support you stating your boundary, if she left on the pretense of something other than OM. However, I don't think you should have added about her living with consequences. Are those consequences coming from you? If so, what do you plan?

Quote
W: You don't know what you're talking about, there is nothing going on.
H: Please stop, we both know you're lying right now, please let me finish. I know you're having an affair with OM2, it's disrespectful to me, our marriage, and our family.
W: You don't know anything, there's nothing going on with OM2.
H: Stop, we both know your lying (holding my hand up while looking her dead in the eyes).
H: I will NOT live in an open marriage. Looks like we both have some big decisions to make.
W: We can get a divorce, I was ready to send you an email today to start dividing everything.


I think you were busting to use these statements you've read in DB threads. If you had said it earlier, it would have been more effective than coming in at the 11th hour to tell her. For her, there are no big decisions to make, b/c she was going to email you that night about divisions of assets. Do you see how your timing was way off? Timing is everything.

Quote
Your choice to continue cheating and make things worse and destroy our family or end the cheating and make things better and help our family.
W: You can't come to my house unannounced. Now, get out!
H: You need to think long and hard about the impact of your choices on our children. Do you think children are resilient?


Man, she told you to get out of her house, and you are still talking? This boundary has turned into you pressing her emotionally. The more you use the kids to make her feel guilty, the more contempt she'll have for you.

Quote
Some may feel I acted in haste, but with one OM after another with no end in sight, I felt compelled to take a stand.


Your place and time was bad. You chose a place where she could kick you out. You used S8's information as your excuse to open the "discussion" with her, and you knew you only had minutes to do it before getting her email. You wanted to use these "statements" you've read on the board. There is nothing wrong with those statements from the board, but if not said in the right place in the right time frame.......they are not very effective, IMHO. I think the one where you pointed out that this S was never about her having space, was the best opener you could have used, and left out all that stuff about S8, your feelings, etc. You could have made that statement and immediately gave your boundary and then left (which I'm pretty sure is included in with this advice about the statement examples). Let me explain something about those statements on the board. For the most part, they are examples you can use when confronting the WW, or when telling her your boundary, or when she is telling you lies. However, you can't use them with the expectation it will change anything in the sitch. They are examples how to respond to a wayward or to confront........but they are not solutions. If you saw them as some way of making her come to her senses, then I'm afraid you will be disappointed. Yes, they sound strong and maybe have a punch to them, but they were not meant to use to pull the WW out of her fog.

Quote
I was extremely calm and confident throughout, while she was increasingly angered and filled with rage. I did not let it rattle me or affect my emotions. I am ready to accept and do not fear what follows. Now we'll see what develops over the coming days and weeks.


That's good that you remained calm and confident. Have no expectations! You've said it, now be ready to follow through. I don't think any of it will stop her affairs. If it made you feel strong by saying it, okay. If you expect it to change her behavior at this point, I think you'll be disappointed. Let me ask a question. What will you do if she doesn't push the D? What if she just continues having affairs and doesn't pursue with a D?

So now, you start from the line you've drawn in the sand. I don't think it hurt the sitch, but I don't expect it to change her mind.

((hugs))
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/05/19 06:54 PM
Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
Curtis,

You can't tell her what to do or what you'll live with.

You can show her. Your talk was just a confrontation without action, a toothless wolf.

You have progressed but she has not felt your boundary bc your boundary is soft.


Originally Posted by Ready2Change

What boundaries are you putting in place?

What is you plan?

So what is your next step?


Originally Posted by LH19

You really should come to the board before making big moves like that. Ok. You stated your boundaries. She basically laughed at them. What are the consequences?

Next step is boxing up her remaining clothes in my house and putting them in the garage.

Then, tomorrow morning contacting L to review my options to best protect my kids from WW. The big decision is whether I file. If it's in the best interest of my kids, then I'm prepared to take that action.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/05/19 08:26 PM
Originally Posted by sandi2
Okay, let's talk about this. First of all, if you called yourself stating a boundary, then it shouldn't have been a "talk". Secondly, you went to her house, b/c the two of you are already physically separated, due to her affair. Therefore, the only consequences for dishonoring your boundary is a divorce. You see, if the couple physically separates due to an affair, then the betrayed spouse is not exactly living in an open M, except on paper. Thirdly, whenever stating a boundary, you just say what it is (no discussions, no negotiations, etc.) and then you turn and walk away. Fourthly, you don't bring up other issues when you state the boundary.

Yes, the "talk" lasted about 5 minutes, you're right that I lingered too long and brought up multiple issues rather than sticking with setting the primary boundary. I hadn't spoken with her about her actions and choices in a couple months and didn't know if I would have another opportunity, so I decided to get multiple issues out on the table.

Originally Posted by sandi2
Well, once your WW moves out, there is no point in chasing her down to give the "I will not live in an open M". If you had posted how you were planning to wait for a month or more for her to see you GAL, etc.,
you probably would have been advised that it was too late to state to her that boundary.....unless you are ready to D. I mean, you can have the boundary in your own mind, but you don't have to say it to her. You just do the actions if she dishonors your boundary. Do you see what I mean? Now, if you let her move out under the pretense that she just needed some space to figure herself out and nothing was ever said about her wayward behavior.......then what you said about the boundary might be okay. It lets her know that you are now aware of the deceit and betrayal. However, considering how you waited till the last minute, I don't think you should have any expectations in her changing her behavior.....or her mind. It will push you to act, should she not follow through with the D.

I see what you mean, but the latter is the case. She played this entire physical separation as needing emotional space and distance from the MR. She has been gaslighting and lying to me since the confrontation on OM1 in December. I did not set a boundary at that time and instead forgave her within days. She didn't know that I was aware of the PA that she has moved onto with OM2. She has been cake eating for months and I needed to stand up for myself for me. I didn't want to sit back and leave this MR without her knowing that I know the truth of her escapades and chose not to call her out on them. I went in with almost zero expectations that she would change her mind, especially not on the spot. I wanted her to know that her fantasy is not a secret and that her betrayal will have long lasting consequences on her and our family if she chooses to follow through with the D.

Originally Posted by sandi2
Your timing was way off. You went after the separation. You went to her house, and you went late in the evening. Frankly, I would have probably thrown my H out, too, if he came to my house telling me he wasn't going to tolerate something I had done.......or laying out some kind of boundary for the M.

I did wait too long, I see that now. Had I set a firm boundary earlier in my sitch, things may be different today. Others here told me I would regret it and they were right. The LBS is so blinded by the W they used to be married to that we hold out hope for so long that they will come around and see the light. I'm afraid, this is almost never the case from the sitches and books that I've read, especially with PAs and WWs.

Quote
I've tolerated this intolerable behavior for 6 months and I will not tolerate it any longer when you lie to our children.
Originally Posted by sandi2
Well, what are you going to do about it? Did you have a plan of action when you said this?

I plan to contact L tomorrow to find out what options I have to protect my kids and act in their best interest.

Quote
Let's be clear about one thing, this separation was not about you having space, it was about having affairs. You made the choice to have affairs over marriage and family and will have to live with the consequences.
Originally Posted by sandi2
I have to admit, I like most of that one. It helps support you stating your boundary, if she left on the pretense of something other than OM. However, I don't think you should have added about her living with consequences. Are those consequences coming from you? If so, what do you plan?

Credit AllenA for that one. He took it a step further and recommended exposure to family and friends so all knew the WW was choosing an A over MR. The cake eating is now over, she has fired me as her H. I will be civil and co-parent with her, but nothing else. If she ever chooses to end the A, then I might consider R. Although, right now, I am going to distance myself from her as far as possible.

Quote
W: You don't know what you're talking about, there is nothing going on.
H: Please stop, we both know you're lying right now, please let me finish. I know you're having an affair with OM2, it's disrespectful to me, our marriage, and our family.
W: You don't know anything, there's nothing going on with OM2.
H: Stop, we both know your lying (holding my hand up while looking her dead in the eyes).
H: I will NOT live in an open marriage. Looks like we both have some big decisions to make.
W: We can get a divorce, I was ready to send you an email today to start dividing everything.
Originally Posted by sandi2
I think you were busting to use these statements you've read in DB threads. If you had said it earlier, it would have been more effective than coming in at the 11th hour to tell her. For her, there are no big decisions to make, b/c she was going to email you that night about divisions of assets. Do you see how your timing was way off? Timing is everything.

Yes, you're probably right, unless she thinks this A can stay underground for a long time without others finding out. She may think twice about what she stands to lose in life if it becomes known to others. I have not decided to expose the A further and doubt it would help right now anyways.

Quote
Your choice to continue cheating and make things worse and destroy our family or end the cheating and make things better and help our family.
W: You can't come to my house unannounced. Now, get out!
H: You need to think long and hard about the impact of your choices on our children. Do you think children are resilient?
Originally Posted by sandi2
Man, she told you to get out of her house, and you are still talking? This boundary has turned into you pressing her emotionally. The more you use the kids to make her feel guilty, the more contempt she'll have for you.

I missed the mark on that one. I thought at some point a mother's guilt would factor into shedding light on their choices and possibly exiting the fog.

Originally Posted by sandi2
That's good that you remained calm and confident. Have no expectations! You've said it, now be ready to follow through. I don't think any of it will stop her affairs. If it made you feel strong by saying it, okay. If you expect it to change her behavior at this point, I think you'll be disappointed. Let me ask a question. What will you do if she doesn't push the D? What if she just continues having affairs and doesn't pursue with a D?

I will file for D. I am AMOAFWL and had a timeline in dealing with her and hoping she would wake up. I deserve better and to be loved. My kids deserve to see what it's like to be in a loving relationship. I will not let my kids see that it is acceptable to be repeatedly disrespected by a S that has been given so many opportunities to end her A's and work on the MR. It is up to her to do the right thing.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/05/19 08:34 PM
I should add that WW sent me a text after I left her house last night supporting what she is feeling in her brain from the PAs which has completely consumed her decision making.

W: If it was just you being a dork for most of our marriage, it would be fine, I could work through that. But the sex wasn't good for me.
H: Thanks for sharing.
W: Or I should say we together didn't have good sex. Takes two. Dynamic wasn't there, that's why I read all those books...lots of books.

I did not reply.
Posted By: IHCLACS Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/05/19 09:34 PM
Do you know what the real reason is why she said that?
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/05/19 10:22 PM
Originally Posted by IHCLACS
Do you know what the real reason is why she said that?

I donít know, she didnít feel loved by me, didnít feel respected, I was controlling, sheís depressed and feels sheís missed out on things in life. Could be one of these, a combination, or something entirely else.

She just dropped off the kids and found her clothes in the garage. She started packing and said the following:
W: Thanks for taking everything from me that I ever wanted.
H: This is not what I wanted and it was your choice.
W: This was all my dream except for the house design. From the barn to the fences to the landscaping to the decor to the color selection and now I canít have it because I donít want it with you. I never felt like it was mine and I had to earn it. (She had tears in her eyes)
H: Iím sorry you feel that way.
W: Donít contact me unless itís about the kids.
H: Likewise (I turned and left the garage.

First time Iíve seen her cry since BD. More of the same behavior, all about her selfishness and vilifying me as the reason for her loss and unhappiness.
Posted By: SoTorn Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/06/19 01:50 AM
Just keep DB and when she has outbursts keep validating. When she puts you down ignore her. I dont validate put downs. Fortunately my WW never put me down regarding sex. However, her put downs still hurt.

Time for you to go dark. Go see the L. Get your ducks in a row. My WW began threatening D in August. At first it was a "if you keep smothering me, snooping, blaming me for having an A, I will file for D"

I confirmed PA and then I pulled back hard. I she started pursuing but negatively. Like full on criticism and judgement. Bersting me, putting me down. I just ignored and/or asked her to leave me alone.

Then she kept saying "stop acting like you want to stay married"

I responded by saying that I didnt want a D, but no, I did not want to stay married to this version of her. I told her if she wanted D that I wont get in her way. Took her until March 2019 to have the D paperwork drawn up. Little bit of back and forth on the settlement but its filed now.


I am happy that I wont be married to the horrible person my WW became.

All she does now is sit around, drink wine (yes she started drinking again) and listen to sad music about lost love.

Oh well.

Just be prepared for anything man. They literally go nuts.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/06/19 03:59 PM
Originally Posted by SoTorn
Time for you to go dark. Go see the L. Get your ducks in a row. My WW began threatening D in August. At first it was a "if you keep smothering me, snooping, blaming me for having an A, I will file for D"

I confirmed PA and then I pulled back hard. I she started pursuing but negatively. Like full on criticism and judgement. Bersting me, putting me down. I just ignored and/or asked her to leave me alone.

SoTorn, thanks for the advice. My WW has threatened D a couple times since BD 6 months ago. This time I believe sheís serious and is ready to follow through. I do expect the negative criticism and attacks to ramp up as she continues to blame me for all of this. Yesterdayís outburst was clearly to make me feel guilty and justify her choice leave in her mind. I am planning for the worst and have scheduled call with L. The door is still open for her if she decides to make the right choice as R is best for my kids in the long run. However, for the time being DBing is all I can do to best protect myself and my kids.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/06/19 06:01 PM
Curtis, you may not be familiar with 25 as she hasn't posted on here in the last few months, but one of her gold-plated pieces of advice was that it's the LBS's job to "keep the way home paved and smooth." That's really it, that's what DB'ing is all about. It's not to throw a hook into her and drag her kicking and screaming back home. It's not to dig potholes and set up roadblocks making it harder for her to drive home. It's not to put your front bumper against her back bumper and shove her farther down the road. It is simply to live your life and leave her alone, to be the rock and the lighthouse so that when she looks back she sees someone she WANTS to be with. If she chooses to drive home, then your job is to make that drive as easy as you can. BUT SHE HAS TO WANT TO MAKE THE DRIVE, AND SHE HAS TO DRIVE, NOT YOU.

So with this in mind, ask yourself if you are keeping the way home paved and smooth. Personally I don't think you are, I think you are digging potholes and trenches in the road. You are sabotaging the way home. You have good intentions, you are hoping that by shoving her nose in the affair and embarrassing her by accusing her of being a bad mother that you will wake her up and she will see the error of her ways and want to come back and work on the M. THAT IS NOT HOW IT WORKS!!!! You can't "nice" her back, I think you've already learned that. But unfortunately you've made the classic LBS mistake of then trying to "mean" her back, but that is equally ineffective. It's time to drop back, regroup, focus on you and the kids and well and truly leave her alone.
Posted By: SoTorn Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/06/19 06:31 PM
I agree with what AS says. Remember, this time is for you to focus on you and the kids. Thats it. But yes, you need to protect yourself. If you feel that she is going to file for D, go speak with an L. You don't have to tell her about this. It is good to know your rights and know the laws and have an L ready to go if it all goes down that path.

Don't talk about the A anymore, it does nothing. She won't stop and she won't care. Just focus on you and the kids. Do what makes you happy.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/06/19 07:30 PM
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Curtis, you may not be familiar with 25 as she hasn't posted on here in the last few months, but one of her gold-plated pieces of advice was that it's the LBS's job to "keep the way home paved and smooth." That's really it, that's what DB'ing is all about. It's not to throw a hook into her and drag her kicking and screaming back home. It's not to dig potholes and set up roadblocks making it harder for her to drive home. It's not to put your front bumper against her back bumper and shove her farther down the road. It is simply to live your life and leave her alone, to be the rock and the lighthouse so that when she looks back she sees someone she WANTS to be with. If she chooses to drive home, then your job is to make that drive as easy as you can. BUT SHE HAS TO WANT TO MAKE THE DRIVE, AND SHE HAS TO DRIVE, NOT YOU.

So with this in mind, ask yourself if you are keeping the way home paved and smooth. Personally I don't think you are, I think you are digging potholes and trenches in the road. You are sabotaging the way home. You have good intentions, you are hoping that by shoving her nose in the affair and embarrassing her by accusing her of being a bad mother that you will wake her up and she will see the error of her ways and want to come back and work on the M. THAT IS NOT HOW IT WORKS!!!! You can't "nice" her back, I think you've already learned that. But unfortunately you've made the classic LBS mistake of then trying to "mean" her back, but that is equally ineffective. It's time to drop back, regroup, focus on you and the kids and well and truly leave her alone.

Hi AS, I do want to keep the way home paved and smooth. I am confused on how to do that when setting boundaries and enforcing consequences. It did seem mean to box up her clothes and leave them in the garage, but that has been recommended on several occasions previously due to her waywardness. It hurt me to see your cry and be in pain.

Should I apologize to her for anything (exposing the A, guilting her over the kids, boxing her stuff)? Should I tell her that the door is open and she is welcome to come back if she ever feels differently, that I wonít bring up those things again, and that I will leave her alone?
Posted By: Hurt213 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/06/19 07:37 PM

Quote
Should I apologize to her for anything (exposing the A, guilting her over the kids, boxing her stuff)? Should I tell her that the door is open and she is welcome to come back if she ever feels differently, that I wonít bring up those things again, and that I will leave her alone?


No, no... NO!

Done is done, and learn from that experience you had. Show her with your actions, stop using your mouth for anything but breathing and eating. She KNOWS how welcome back she is, because you are displaying pursuit behavior my friend. Follow the last 3 words in the above quote... Leave her alone......
Posted By: LH19 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/06/19 08:43 PM
C,

For right now you need to just leave her alone. You are really confused right now and need to stop and take a deep breath. Yes, boxing up her stuff would of represented strength if you did it when you first caught her in an affair. Now your just helping her move. Forget boundaries for now. Unless your willing to serve her which youíre not, just forget about it for now.

Also I want to make the clear. No more telling her you still love her and are willing to work on the marriage. Trust me she knows. No apologies for anything. The next apology needs to come from her.

I think you need to post more often and read over the homework some more until you get a better understanding of what you need to do.
Posted By: Niall11 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/07/19 01:15 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
No apologies for anything. The next apology needs to come from her.


I think I'm going to print this out and frame it.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/07/19 03:06 PM
Originally Posted by Niall11
Originally Posted by LH19
No apologies for anything. The next apology needs to come from her.


I think I'm going to print this out and frame it.

LH, agreed, this one is gold and I would imagine will only happen if/when she ever hits rock bottom.
Posted By: SoTorn Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/07/19 03:10 PM
Originally Posted by Niall11
Originally Posted by LH19
No apologies for anything. The next apology needs to come from her.


I think I'm going to print this out and frame it.



Exactly. She needs to get through her issues, start loving herself, apologize and pursue you.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/07/19 04:09 PM
Originally Posted by curtis7

Hi AS, I do want to keep the way home paved and smooth. I am confused on how to do that when setting boundaries and enforcing consequences. It did seem mean to box up her clothes and leave them in the garage, but that has been recommended on several occasions previously due to her waywardness. It hurt me to see her cry and be in pain.


Sometimes a little "tough love" is needed, especially when dealing with a WW. The key is you have to be consistent though. Don't box up her stuff and put it in the garage and the next day tell her you love her and wish she would work on the M with you. Do you see what crazy, mixed signals that would send? As Hurt said she KNOWS she only needs to snap her fingers and you'll come running. What you need to strive for is for her not just to think but to know that that is no longer the case. That Curtis is no longer Plan B waiting in the wings.

Quote
Should I apologize to her for anything (exposing the A, guilting her over the kids, boxing her stuff)? Should I tell her that the door is open and she is welcome to come back if she ever feels differently, that I wonít bring up those things again, and that I will leave her alone?


As Hurt and others said you don't want to apologize and you don't want to beg and plead. That'll just make you look unsure of yourself and lacking confidence at a time you want to be exuding strength. And your words mean less than nothing to her right now anyway. Show her actions, and show her consistent actions over a long period of time.



Posted By: ovrrnbw Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/07/19 04:11 PM
Curtis,

I don't know how much you've read about "going dark". I'd read and learn more about it before doing it because you need to make a plan and stick to it for a while, no flip flopping.

I don't think you can go dark without a parenting plan. I don't think you can go dark with her coming over to see the horse all the time. These kinds of things need to be ironed out. Do it quickly and without emotion, then start taking steps forward with your own life. Your W sees you as weak and now it is time for you to heal, grow, and strengthen - and hopefully you want to do it for yourself and not just for her b/c that attitude will go a long ways for you.

Detachment means what they do doesn't affect you either way. I left the pictures up at my house b/c they didn't bother me usually and I thought maybe they'd bother my W to see them. But it's best to let most things like that become water off the duck's back. Keep posting, keep reading like LH said.
Posted By: neffer Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/07/19 04:19 PM
And for you itīs time to stop talking and start moving. Set YOU free.

Keep DB man!
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/08/19 12:10 PM
Thanks for all of the advice and feedback. Iíve spoken with two Lís this week and have a better understanding of my options. My W had requested in an email Saturday night that I gather all of my financials and make a list of our assets and marital items with estimated values so we could decide by the end of the month who keeps what. Of course, she asked to be compensated for anything I keep. So, Iím thinking about how to proceed.

Iíve been reflecting back on the open marriage confrontation Saturday night and considering the timing. I gathered some intel and on Monday of last week WWís BFF was at her house to console her because WW and OM2 were fighting. Some of the messages from him stated that ďI have her under my thumbĒ and that she is never available because she is at my place so often with the horse and attending to my needs and pleasing me. It seems OM2 is threatened by me or trying to use me against her and convince her to distance further from me.

On Saturday morning, she was having her tires rotated and they told her two needed to be replaced due to low tread depth. She immediately called me, blamed me for not replacing all four tires last time, and asked what she should do because she had never taken care of that before. I told her you can do what you want with the tires, thatís your decision. Then, after the rotation, she brought the kids to my house to give S8 a haircut. Afterwards he wanted to stay with me for a few hours until his baseball game. D4 also wanted to stay, I never asked either of the kids to stay at my place. WW drove off upset and sent a text stating she was upset because her time with the kids was taken away from her. That is when she drafted the email about taking the next steps on financials and dividing property.

The email started as follows:
ďThis set up we have right now is no longer working for me. Many have told me that and I refused to listen. But after today I realize you think I am or should still depend on you and bend to your will. That is not the case.Ē

I donít understand how her calling me about tires on her car and the kids wanting to stay with me made her realize I think she should depend on me and bend to my will. Craziness! I think it had more to do with BFFís biased shoulder, OM2ís texts, and her blaming me for the problems they are going through. She may be realizing that being married to me, even though separated, is problematic for Rís with any OM as it portrays her as less available.

A little more intel indicated that her and OM2 were fighting over text just prior to my arrival at her place for the open marriage confrontation. Messages from him stated that she manipulates him, that she looks and talks down to him, doesnít respect him, etc. He stated that her and I are perfect for each other.

So, based on all of this as well as what others have said, I think it was bad timing in setting the boundary. This is also why Iím not necessarily opposed to gathering intel occasionally before making any big moves. It can be very helpful in knowing if the timing is right.

A few final thoughts on WW, she had two hand written notes on her refrigerator. One stated something along the lines of not judging others and no one is better than you. I saw a conversation she had with her sister asking if she had turned into that type of person, because she thinks that is what I would do in the past and if she was mirroring me after 18 years together. Her sister acknowledged that she has seen and heard my W make judgmental comments on others she felt she was better than over the past few years. I know that coming to that realization had a tremendous emotional impact on my W as she always prided herself on treating others equally. The other note on the fridge stated if you want a different result, make different choices. My thought on that is if you want to stop being treated like a piece of meat by pickup artists half your age, then recommit to your MR and family and work on a real loving relationship rather than satisfying your desires for short-term sexual thrills with interlopers.

Enough about her, Iím leaving her alone, kids only, and DBing. Working on projects around the house to get ready for my Bday party in a few weeks.
Posted By: neffer Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/08/19 12:36 PM
Hey Curtis, DB is not a manipulative program to get your goals from a cold standpoint. Itīs about knowing yourself so as to learn how to love yourself and then love others.

You are now focus on W. Stop that. Free yourself. Love yourself. Make the right changes for yourself. Get into amoafwl. Stop snooping, you know all the info you need. Keeping that road will set mines on any possible road back to MR.

Detach. Be there for the kids. GAL and go dark/dim.

Ease your mind, relax and start DB.

DB is for yourself. Start walking that road. Itīs a marathon.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/08/19 01:43 PM
C,

Stop snooping! There are no big moves to make. You are living in separate households and she is getting her ducks in a row to file for divorce. There was no bad timing on your boundary because you didnít set one. Please read up on boundaries or ask questions here.

If you want to set and stick to a boundary start with enforcing the statement you made regarding donít call me unless itís about finances or the kids.

W: blah blah blah tires you did this blah blah blah
C: Iím sorry about your tires but this doesnít pertain to the kids or finances. Gotta run.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/08/19 04:31 PM
Originally Posted by curtis7
My W had requested in an email Saturday night that I gather all of my financials and make a list of our assets and marital items with estimated values so we could decide by the end of the month who keeps what.


Get your list together, BUT DO NOT SHARE IT WITH HER!!


Flip this around. You do not have to send this message either. It is your thought process:

H:"W, I have no intention on drawing up such a list. You draw up the list. I will review. If I believe it is fair, I will agree. If it is not fair, I will give give you my changes."

Let her "Split the cookie" you pick the half you want to eat.

The first one in negotiation to "Name the price" loses. Let her name the price.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/08/19 04:59 PM
Originally Posted by curtis7
My W had requested in an email Saturday night that I gather all of my financials and make a list of our assets and marital items with estimated values so we could decide by the end of the month who keeps what. Of course, she asked to be compensated for anything I keep. So, Iím thinking about how to proceed.


R2C beat me to it but yes, make her do all the work. Does she really think she's in a position to make demands of you to escalate the D? No, that is her problem. I would not say one more word to her about it. If she demands again to know when you will send the list, simply tell her "D is not what I want, if you prefer to pursue it I will not stand in your way. But I will not be doing your work for you on this."

Quote
Iíve been reflecting back on the open marriage confrontation Saturday night and considering the timing. I gathered some intel and on Monday of last week WWís BFF was at her house to console her because WW and OM2 were fighting. Some of the messages from him stated that ďI have her under my thumbĒ and that she is never available because she is at my place so often with the horse and attending to my needs and pleasing me. It seems OM2 is threatened by me or trying to use me against her and convince her to distance further from me.


It sounds like you are snooping. There's nothing to be gained, you already know she's having an A, that's all you need to know. Don't get caught up in the details and drama, that doesn't matter. You are married to a woman who is living elsewhere and engaging in an A. Anything else is just background noise, right?

Quote
On Saturday morning, she was having her tires rotated and they told her two needed to be replaced due to low tread depth. She immediately called me, blamed me for not replacing all four tires last time, and asked what she should do because she had never taken care of that before. I told her you can do what you want with the tires, thatís your decision.


Good. Time for her to put her big girl panties on.

Quote
Afterwards he wanted to stay with me for a few hours until his baseball game. D4 also wanted to stay, I never asked either of the kids to stay at my place. WW drove off upset and sent a text stating she was upset because her time with the kids was taken away from her.


Again this is the WAS mindset. EVERYTHING is your fault. All things great and small. That's why you have to give her time and space. Leave her alone. Listen and validate, but don't get drawn into fights or discussions. "I understand why that would make you upset, perhaps next time they ask to stay you can tell them it's your turn to have them and they need to go with you."

Quote
ďThis set up we have right now is no longer working for me. Many have told me that and I refused to listen. But after today I realize you think I am or should still depend on you and bend to your will. That is not the case.Ē


OK so at times like this where it is 100% blaming and Husband-trashing, don't validate. She's being a bratty wayward and you should reply with either NOTHING or "W, you are disrespecting me and I will not tolerate it, please do not contact me unless it's something specific about the kids. I will not reply to disrespectful texts in the future." Then if at ANY time she sends you something like that again, follow through on your boundary and don't reply.

Quote
A little more intel indicated that her and OM2 were fighting over text just prior to my arrival at her place for the open marriage confrontation. Messages from him stated that she manipulates him, that she looks and talks down to him, doesnít respect him, etc. He stated that her and I are perfect for each other.


Who gives a crap. Her interactions with OM are her problem. Quit snooping.

Quote
This is also why Iím not necessarily opposed to gathering intel occasionally before making any big moves. It can be very helpful in knowing if the timing is right.


I disagree. Boundaries are about protecting YOU. You set boundaries when YOU need them. Quit snooping.
Posted By: Hallzy9 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/09/19 09:18 PM
Hey Curtis,
Finally finished catching up on your sitch,
I have to say you WW seems highly unstable. She must really be suffering right now. That is no excuse for her behavior. You seem to really care about her which must mean that she was an amazing person before she became WW. You seem to be a really great guy who has so much love for his family but the disrespect from her is insane. You deserve to be treated so much better.

I think if I were in your situation I would really try to detach fully from her. Drop the rope. Absolutely no conversation apart from child information. She seems so out of bounds with her actions, you must be an incredible patient man to be putting up with this. I wish the best for you man.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/13/19 03:34 PM
Originally Posted by ovrrnbw

I don't think you can go dark without a parenting plan. I don't think you can go dark with her coming over to see the horse all the time. These kinds of things need to be ironed out.

Detachment means what they do doesn't affect you either way. I left the pictures up at my house b/c they didn't bother me usually and I thought maybe they'd bother my W to see them. But it's best to let most things like that become water off the duck's back. Keep posting, keep reading like LH said.

Hi O, parenting plan is worked out. We rotate 2,3,2 each week. This is going okay, but the house feels like an empty shell when the kids arenít home. My S8 has actually stated several times that he doesnít like going to her place and just wishes he could stay at home. I tell him Iím sorry about all of this, that it wasnít caused by him or his sister, and hope that itís only temporary before our family can get back together.

Regarding the horse situation, my neighbor had a friend that was in need of a place to keep her horse and we had an empty stall on our property. So, I decided to bring on a boarder at the beginning of May. I did clear it with my W because her horse is next to this one. She was ok with it initially, then very skeptical the next day thinking of ulterior motives of our neighbor, then ok with it again when I explained the arrangement and after she met the boarder. The basics are that I feed the boarderís horse in the morning, then W feeds and cleans the stall when she comes over to take care of her horse every night. This setup is working for now, my W comes over and does her thing in the barn and sometimes rides her horse. The kids come in the house to play while my W will generally not step foot inside.

This past Friday, she did come in when I was out with the kids for the night to pack up more of her stuff. She took several storage containers of Xmas and other holiday decorations, several other decorative items around the house, and a few paintings off the walls. None of this really bothered me as itís just stuff, although the hooks on the walls where some of the paintings and artwork used to reside looks a bit odd.

Our interaction is mostly limited to the kids and horses. She did text me on Friday asking if she should purchase the road hazard protection for her new tires. I gave my general opinion on those types of warranties with the caveat that itís her decision and she should do what she thinks is best. She decided against it which I agreed with. On Saturday morning, I sent her a text offering to drop the kids at her place that night (they were scheduled to stay with me) so they could be there when she wakes up on Motherís Day. She happily agreed. I took the kids to the store and allowed each of them to pick out a Motherís Day gift for her. I also wrote her a note that I hope she has a good day and that the kids are lucky to have her as a mother. My S8 had a baseball game Saturday morning and my W took D4 to a birthday party. Afterwards, W brought D4 over for the rest of the day and she was wearing a white with black pinstripe dress, looking very good by the way. Same one she was wearing when she met up with OM for a hookup back in January. I suspect she was headed out to see one of her OM or on a date with someone new. I didnít say anything, had a slight smile on my face, and let her go. No words or actions indicate sheís moving back towards me at all. I canít worry about that, I need to keep moving forward for myself.

Iíve been busy working on a project at the house to prepare for my bday party in 2 weeks. I finally finished pressure washing, re-sanding, and sealing the pool deck. Itís a wet look sealer and really brought back the color of the paver blocks. It felt good to accomplish that project, time to select the next one to keep busy.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/13/19 03:53 PM
Originally Posted by curtis7
I tell him Iím sorry about all of this, that it wasnít caused by him or his sister, and hope that itís only temporary before our family can get back together.


Just validate you son's feelings. Do not tell him that you hope it's temporary before your family gets back together. That will only cause him to get his hopes up that you will get back together.

Everything else sounds pretty good other then I don't like her cake eating by coming over and riding the horse every night.
Posted By: ovrrnbw Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/13/19 04:52 PM
You wrote a note saying how the kids are lucky to have her as a mom? She's cheating and abandoned the family, so I don't see how she is a good family person. What you wrote is a love note showing her how attached you still are.

Gotta let her figure out her horse in a way that doesn't involve you.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/13/19 04:56 PM
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Originally Posted by curtis7
My W had requested in an email Saturday night that I gather all of my financials and make a list of our assets and marital items with estimated values so we could decide by the end of the month who keeps what.

Get your list together, BUT DO NOT SHARE IT WITH HER!!

Flip this around. You do not have to send this message either. It is your thought process:

H:"W, I have no intention on drawing up such a list. You draw up the list. I will review. If I believe it is fair, I will agree. If it is not fair, I will give give you my changes."

Let her "Split the cookie" you pick the half you want to eat.

The first one in negotiation to "Name the price" loses. Let her name the price.

R2C, thanks for the great advice on how to address her demands. I was reluctant to assign values to any of the items to share with her. I will need to do this and keep it to myself to better understand how things could shake out. I know how to play poker and she will need to show her hand first.
Originally Posted by AnotherStander

R2C beat me to it but yes, make her do all the work. Does she really think she's in a position to make demands of you to escalate the D? No, that is her problem. I would not say one more word to her about it. If she demands again to know when you will send the list, simply tell her "D is not what I want, if you prefer to pursue it I will not stand in your way. But I will not be doing your work for you on this."

AS, I definitely plan to use that statement if/when she brings this up again. I would expect her to go ballistic at which point I will end the conversation and walk away. I will not stand in her way of D, but I will not hand over what she needs. If this is what she wants, sheíll need to do the work. Hopefully, she follows the path of other WWs that are notoriously lazy when it comes to taking the next steps.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/13/19 05:22 PM
Originally Posted by curtis7
She took several storage containers of Xmas and other holiday decorations, several other decorative items around the house, and a few paintings off the walls. None of this really bothered me as itís just stuff, although the hooks on the walls where some of the paintings and artwork used to reside looks a bit odd.


Man up. Come to agreements on what can be taken and the value. Call her out on this.

H:"W, I noticed some of our joint assets are missing. Did you take anything?"

W:"Bla lbla bla mine bla bla bla bla"

H"I am sorry you feel that way. It is important for us to split our things fairly. I believe it is best that we come to agreements on the value of items before either one of us claim them as mine."


W:"Bla bla bla unfair bla bla bla"

H:"I can see why you feel it is unfair"
Posted By: Yail Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/13/19 05:34 PM
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Originally Posted by curtis7
She took several storage containers of Xmas and other holiday decorations, several other decorative items around the house, and a few paintings off the walls. None of this really bothered me as itís just stuff, although the hooks on the walls where some of the paintings and artwork used to reside looks a bit odd.


Man up. Come to agreements on what can be taken and the value. Call her out on this.

H:"W, I noticed some of our joint assets are missing. Did you take anything?"

W:"Bla lbla bla mine bla bla bla bla"

H"I am sorry you feel that way. It is important for us to split our things fairly. I believe it is best that we come to agreements on the value of items before either one of us claim them as mine."


W:"Bla bla bla unfair bla bla bla"

H:"I can see why you feel it is unfair"





One thing that has worked well for me is using email for these lists so there is documentation. I said to W, "Could you please send me a list of the items you plan on taking on _____ date? I will let you know if I have concerns on any of them". W did so, and I reviewed and responded.This made her do the work, but also gives me a written request I can review in my own time (not in the moment when emotions are high).

It should seemingly work well for her as well, as she would then have documentation of you responding, "yes, I have no problem with you taking x, y, and z". Clarity and documentation is never a bad thing.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/13/19 05:52 PM

I was the one that moved out. I went through things one room at a time. Starting with my office. Ending in the kitchen.

I sent emails like this:

I plan on taking everything in my office tomorrow. If there is anything in there that you want, please move it someplace else in the house.
.
.
.
.
I have gathered everything I plan on taking from the kitchen and is on the dinning room table. If there is anything you want to keep, please move it from the table.



I did not quibble about the value of the little things. Last thing I asked for was the hot tub. figured that ballanced out the value of all the furniture.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/13/19 06:37 PM
Originally Posted by Hallzy9
Hey Curtis,
Finally finished catching up on your sitch,
I have to say you WW seems highly unstable. She must really be suffering right now. That is no excuse for her behavior. You seem to really care about her which must mean that she was an amazing person before she became WW. You seem to be a really great guy who has so much love for his family but the disrespect from her is insane. You deserve to be treated so much better.

I think if I were in your situation I would really try to detach fully from her. Drop the rope. Absolutely no conversation apart from child information. She seems so out of bounds with her actions, you must be an incredible patient man to be putting up with this. I wish the best for you man.

My W portrays everything as perfectly normal from the outside when she's not chasing fantasies on her phone, I have no idea what she is struggling with internally. It could be that she has fully detached and doesn't let guilt about the family affect her. I do know that she continues to blame me for all of her problems and unhappiness in life. Loving her from a distance is a choice I have decided to make. It's not for everyone and does require a tremendous amount of patience and a thick skin. I suffered from PTSD like symptoms for several months after BD and PA discovery. However, now those feelings of panic and self-doubt have been replaced with a numbness when it comes to her actions and choices. This develops over time as the LBS continues to improve on detachment. When times are tough, I think to the future with my kids if they were to ask why things didn't work out with mom. I want to be able to look them in the eye and tell them that I did everything I could so they didn't have to grow up in a broken home. I do my best to stay diligent with my 180s/GAL and await the day my WWs feelings change again.

Keep it up Hallzy, been following your sitch as well. Your's is early on and you are making good progress applying the principles, keep with it, the changes will work wonders for you the longer it plays out. Best of luck to you!
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/13/19 07:13 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
Just validate you son's feelings. Do not tell him that you hope it's temporary before your family gets back together. That will only cause him to get his hopes up that you will get back together.

Everything else sounds pretty good other then I don't like her cake eating by coming over and riding the horse every night.

LH, I understand what you're saying about my son, I need to keep his expectations low, just like mine. Otherwise, he could be even more devastated if his hopes get crushed.

I don't see the horse situation changing. I can't force her to take it elsewhere or for her to pay rent, we both own the property. If I make that type of demand I see her laughing in my face because I wouldn't be able to enforce any consequence. Also, I do get some benefits out of it in that I get to see my kids a bit more often while she is here and she helps in taking care of the boarder's horse.

Something else I wanted to throw out there for comment. For the past 2 years, my S8 and I have had a tradition of taking a summer vacation around the country to see baseball games in different stadiums. Last year, my D4 was very sad that she didn't come along, W said she picked up and played with a bat and ball while we were gone. This year, I'm not leaving D4 behind. Initially, one of my son's baseball tournaments was going to conflict with the dates we were considering in June so I had decided it would be best if we took a shorter trip and went to visit family in the Midwest and see some games there. My W was fine with me taking them.

Now, that particular tournament was cancelled, so I have a full week available. As such, I was looking at heading out West and taking the kids to drive the Pacific Coast Highway between Northern and Southern California while seeing some games and other attractions along the way. The question is do I ask my W to come along or just inform her that is where I intend to take the kids for vacation? Something along the lines of "W, I plan to take the kids to California for a week of fun and excitement, you are welcome to join us if you wish, let me know in the next few days as I will be finalizing travel arrangements."

The fact is the kids love her and they would enjoy going on a trip with both parents more. If I can be with my WW and do things with our kids as a "family" without having ANY expectations in regards to the situation, then I would just consider it to be co-parenting. I would offer this for the sole reason of doing what is in the best interest of the kids. Even though I fully expect her to decline the offer, I still feel it is worth asking the question. Thoughts?
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/13/19 07:23 PM
Curtis, well done on the interactions with W that you've described in your last several posts, that all sounds like good, solid DB'ing!

Originally Posted by curtis7
The question is do I ask my W to come along or just inform her that is where I intend to take the kids for vacation? Something along the lines of "W, I plan to take the kids to California for a week of fun and excitement, you are welcome to join us if you wish, let me know in the next few days as I will be finalizing travel arrangements."

The fact is the kids love her and they would enjoy going on a trip with both parents more. If I can be with my WW and do things with our kids as a "family" without having ANY expectations in regards to the situation, then I would just consider it to be co-parenting. I would offer this for the sole reason of doing what is in the best interest of the kids. Even though I fully expect her to decline the offer, I still feel it is worth asking the question. Thoughts?


If you can do it with zero expectations, and if you are going to do the trip whether she does or not, then I think it's OK to ask (although I think others will disagree). Whether she says yes or no it should be water off a duck's back to you.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/13/19 07:25 PM
Originally Posted by curtis7
Something along the lines of "W, I plan to take the kids to California for a week of fun and excitement, you are welcome to join us if you wish, let me know in the next few days as I will be finalizing travel arrangements."
From this date to this date."
Posted By: LH19 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/13/19 07:27 PM
C,

I seriously just smacked my head when I read your question. Why, why, why would you ask her that? Do you enjoy pain?

I am going to be completely honest with you. I dislike your W as much as any WW on here in the last 4 years.

You have 2 young sons and you need to teach them not to tolerate disrespect from other people. Stop with the BS that itís good for the kids. They will have the time of their lives going on a road trip with their dad.

Look man I know this is hard. Respect and strength is the only thing that will change your situation.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/13/19 07:32 PM
Quote
Right now I'm working NGS. Read that book and it felt like it was specifically for me. Took it to my IC and creating he is creating 'program' around the issues.

Also working on Shame, intrinsic value, and vulnerability. <- these are tough to do without W.. as she would be getting the 'actions'. But its still possible. Building strong, open (vulnerable) relationships with other men.


Why are these tough to do without your W? How did she figure into these personal areas? Would you explain what you mean she would be getting the actions? How is that different from showing 180's?

I think you are still wanting to sit down with your WW and explain why you were the way you were and how you will be much better in the future. It doesn't work with a wayward. She's way beyond caring why. Look, she does not respect you as a man, and you can't get her respect by explaining your issues. If you try to talk to her about your shame, vulnerability, etc.........it will only make her disrespect you more. Why? B/c her heart is closed off to you. She doesn't have compassion for you. She resents you, and you can't change it by explaining it away. She is not in the place mentally/emotionally to be positively affected by whatever you want to share about your new self discovery.

I think some of this comes after reading the book and wanting to make big changes in yourself, and most of all wanting to show your WW. If you want to change your nice-guy ways, then apply it to every area of your life.......not just the M. You don't discuss it with her, just do it. See, from day one, you've wanted to fix everything by talking. You still want to do what doesn't work right now. Maybe you've found a new subject, but you are still trying old methods that won't be effective with her.

If you really want to change, you can do it without discussing it with her.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/13/19 07:38 PM

If you are able, I would go for 2 weeks. Spend 2 weeks with your kids. You will create great memories.
Posted By: ovrrnbw Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/13/19 08:00 PM
Don't invite her on the trip. Do your thing quit trying to pursue her or lay out bait. All she sees is weakness.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/15/19 05:30 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
I seriously just smacked my head when I read your question. Why, why, why would you ask her that? Do you enjoy pain?

LH, I have to be honest, some of your posts really crack me up. They are direct, 2x4ís and you donít hold back. I appreciate that. Although itís sad, sometimes I find humor in my sitch and am able to laugh at things that have transpired, WWs choices, and how Iíve dealt with everything. I must be a glutton for punishment, but laughter helps maintain my sanity at times.
Quote

I am going to be completely honest with you. I dislike your W as much as any WW on here in the last 4 years.

You have 2 young kids and you need to teach them not to tolerate disrespect from other people. Stop with the BS that itís good for the kids. They will have the time of their lives going on a road trip with their dad.

Look man I know this is hard. Respect and strength is the only thing that will change your situation.

Trust me, your disdain for my W is apparent and warranted based on her words and actions. It feels like I should win some type of award for fighting to save a MR with WW of the decade, lol. There in that gives me more motivation to DB my a$$ off and someday/somehow turn this around to be a success story for the ages.

Optimism with low expectations is key to enduring the pain and continuing to figure out what is and what is not working.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/15/19 06:43 PM
curtis, I am about as pro-marriage as they come. However, at some point you have to decide to cut bait, and run. When there has been a long period of time (over a year), or multiple affairs. Or abuse. There are a few deal-breakers, and these are some of them.

Curtis, just make sure you have no unfinished emotional business. Deal with all of it, earn your way out, then walkaway with your head held high!
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/19/19 12:53 AM
Would you answer the questions in my previous posts, please? Thanks
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/19/19 11:53 AM
Originally Posted by sandi2
Would you answer the questions in my previous posts, please? Thanks

Hi Sandi, I didnít respond to those questions because it seemed your post was intended for someone else. The quote wasnít mine and Iím not in IC.

I did a search on the forum and it was a post from P_Jam:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2848194#Post2848194
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/19/19 03:32 PM
Quote
Quote
Would you answer the questions in my previous posts, please? Thanks


Hi Sandi, I didnít respond to those questions because it seemed your post was intended for someone else. The quote wasnít mine and Iím not in IC.


Oops, my apologies. Good reason for no response. blush
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/21/19 05:46 PM
Hit a major birthday milestone today, signature line updated. Woke up to the kids bringing me a bag of hand painted crafts and magnets, t-shirt, and handmade card with stick images of the three of us. That put a smile on my face...and theirs, we were all excited. Gosh I love my kids.

No gifts or even a happy birthday wish from my W as of yet. I started thinking what I would want from her and these things came to mind: a long loving hug, a passionate kiss, sex, a commitment to end her affairs, desire to move home, agreement to attend Retrouvaille, an apology. Any of these would be appreciated. I accept that none of this is going to happen today. Iím okay with that and will continue DBing.

Iím planning to take the kids to a Japanese Steakhouse tonight with my parents. The kids will enjoy the hibachi show in front of them. Last night, S8 asked W if she wanted to go to dinner with us. He did this on his own. She said maybe. Her choice, Iím fine with it either way.

Iíve been keeping busy getting the house ready for my birthday party this week. Pool deck, lanai, and front walkway paver blocks are sealed with a nice wet look finish. Pressure washed the driveway. Assembled a new patio set last night for additional outdoor seating. Still need to give the inside of the house a thorough cleaning and mow the lawn. One of the baseball moms is coordinating and planning much of the party. Catered taco bar is on order from a local Mexican restaurant and Iíve fully stocked the drink reserves. Looking forward to the party with good friends that are very supportive of what Iím going through.

No real talk with W over the past few weeks. Primarily text messages only regarding the kids or horses. Sheís been running hot and cold towards me. We both attended D4ís pre-k graduation show last week and W asked if I could stay a little longer in the classroom after the show. I did and our daughter appreciated it. I also texted her that I had decided that Iím taking the kids to California for a week and a half next month. I did not offer for her to join us. She replied she needed to think about that. I followed up a few days later and she said that was fine to take the kids on the trip. She also asked that we switch weekends with the kids so she could align with the weekends divorced BFF has her kids. I replied that is fine. W also regularly sends face emojis in her texts to me to express her feelings. Not reading anything into it as she probably does that with everyone. Two nights ago, W took the kids to divorced BFFís place and they stayed there late on a school night. I always expect some spew from my W after she has been BFF. As such, last night, S8 had his first baseball all star practice, which I am coaching, and W offered to watch our D4. I replied that wasnít necessary and that D4 can stay with me at practice. W replied ďwhateverĒ, I did not respond. Later in the evening she sends me a text apologizing as she keeps forgetting to bring a tool back to the house that I requested last week.

Iím trying to keep my focus and thoughts off of her and just live my life the way I want to while making the most of my time with kids. The mindset and actions continue to be leave her alone.

I need to get busy planning the detailed itinerary for the California trip with my kids. I want to make sure they have the time of their lives!!
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/22/19 04:07 PM
Birthday came and went. I received a lot of attention and caring at work and from friends and family, which was appreciated. W finally sent a Happy Birthday text in the late afternoon. Also enjoyed a nice dinner with the kids and my parents. Even though S8 asked W to join us the night before, she was a no show.

I must admit, my birthday yesterday and Wís disregard for the occasion was hard on me. I felt very sad that she did next to nothing to recognize the day and I nearly broke down in front of the kids before bedtime. W was always there for me on my birthdays and had a way of making them feel very special.

This tells me that Iím not fully detached and am still allowing interaction, or in this case, lack of interaction with my W to affect me emotionally. Detachment is not easy, when you think youíre doing well and living your life fine without WAS, certain triggers occur that cause those emotions to rush back into your mind. W is seemingly much better at detachment in this respect. Perhaps thatís the difference when you truly care about a person versus when you attribute all of your unhappiness to a person.

Who knows, maybe she does care, but has a funny way of showing it. Staying away could be how she is able to keep herself from being pulled back into a R that she feels she doesnít want right now. Emotions trump logic with a WW.

My birthday was a good reminder on the importance of detachment and not letting Wís choices affect me. I need to pick myself up, keep moving forward, and accept this will be the norm from now on. Major life events and family activities will no longer be jointly shared, that is the choice she has made for now.
Posted By: neffer Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/22/19 04:12 PM
Happy birthday Curtis. Just for you to know, your next birthday will be a better one, for sure. Keep DB.

Time to take YOUR choices into account.

Keep moving forward man.

Happy birthday!

(((((C7)))))
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/24/19 02:11 PM
I need to strap on a helmet and some body armor to prepare for the 2x4ís (hopefully not a sledge hammer) coming my way.

Iíve had the kids with me since Monday and W hadnít seen them at all as I had activities with them everyday after school. I think 3 days is the longest she has ever gone without seeing them. Yesterday afternoon she texted that she was riding her horse tonight and hoped to see the kids after they get home from baseball practice.

We arrived home and the kids spent a little time with her in the barn. She later came into the laundry room to say goodbye to them. She told the kids she stunk from riding the horse. D4 asked why donít you take a shower here? W replied, I donít have any clothes here anymore (I guess I gave her an easy excuse by packing up all of her stuff several weeks ago). W then asked if she could buy a bottle of wine from me. She said she was too dirty to go into a store. I picked one out and gave it to her and said you donít need to pay me. She also mentioned talking to one of our neighbors while on her horse ride. The neighbor let her know about the birthday party Iím having at my place on Saturday. I think this made her curious (GAL works). She then talked for several minutes about how busy she was at work in her new managerial role. I empathized with her as I experienced similar issues in the past when first managing people. I was engaging, made eye contact, mirrored her body expressions and really listened to her.

We went into the garage and she asked if I had any extra electrical wire because she wanted to run a new outlet to an over the range microwave in her separation house. I found a bundle of wire in a storage cabinet that might work for her. We then talked in the garage about our neighbor wanting to bring his sonís horse to our property for the summer while he is overseas. W and I discussed building more fencing off the third stall in our barn that has only been used for storage up until now. She talked about her long term plans for the barn fencing, then said it was my decision. I said itís not entirely my decision. We went out to the driveway under the moonlight and I handed the electrical wire to her and then I placed my arms around her for a hug, she didnít wrap her arms around me and looked somewhat uneasy and uncomfortable.

Here was the exchange:
W: What are you doing?
H: Can I have a hug?
W: Sure...did you have a good birthday?
H: It was different and it was hard...but I enjoyed the time with the kids (I placed my hand in her hair behind her head and gently pulled her towards me)
H: What are you thinking? (after a few seconds and moving apart slightly with my arms still wrapped around her lower back)
W: Weíre not there yet.
H: I understand, we miss you (while looking her in the eyes).
W: Whoís we?
H: Me and the kids.
W: They get to see me.
H: Youíre right they do. Itís late, you better go (still holding her in my arms and pulling her into me, she was not falling into me, I could tell it was not the time to press further, so I let her go)
W: Ok, good night
H: Bye (I turned and walked back into the house)

As I initially held her, thoughts of the vets on the board and their reactions to this decision instantly consumed me. Then I thought to myself, oh shucks, well itís too late now. I need to go with it and try not to say anything that makes matters much worse. Thoughts of how to exit the situation with dignity rapidly ran through my head. I must say it was uncomfortable for me as well since I have had so little physical contact with her for so many months. The thought of moving in to kiss her crossed my mind a couple times; however, looking into her eyes and knowing her facial expressions, I could tell that would not be well received, at least I resisted that temptation.

Huge forehead slap on my part, I donít know why I couldnít fight the urge to touch her and try to get some affection. I just feeling confident, compelled, and an incessant urge to find out if she had any warmth towards me. I think I was motivated by reading P_Jamís sitch and that he recently had sex with his WW. I felt my sitch had some parallels to his and wanted to find out if I could have similar success. Also, I didnít get what I wanted from her for my birthday, so I decided what the heck, Iím just going to go get what I want no matter the outcome.

I donít know if it helped or hurt my sitch or set me back, but last night I didnít really care because I enjoyed it. My MR may already be over, but that doesnít mean I still canít get some personal satisfaction when the opportunity presents. I missed what it felt like to hold her in my arms for the past 6 months. No matter how cruel her words and actions have been, the fact remains that I love this woman and sheís still the only companion I want to be with. DBing is about continuing to do what works and stop doing what doesnít work. I wanted to find out if this action worked. The immediate reaction is no, so Iíll back off again and weíll see how things progress from here.

Positives:
- I got to hold her in my arms which felt great
- She didnít push me away or scream ďdonít you dare touch meĒ
- She said ďWeíre not there yetĒ, keying on the yet as if someday we could be there
- I think it helped letting her know the path home is paved and smooth

Negatives:
- She didnít reciprocate the hug or seem to appreciate it
- Again firmly established myself as plan B, C, or D
- She said ďWeíre not there yetĒ, contrarian POV is that she just said that to not escalate the tension in the moment and wanted it to ended quickly and gracefully

I did call her shortly after she left because S8 had a nasty heat rash. She told me how to treat it. Later on we also exchanged some pleasant and joking texts about the kids.

I woke up this morning feeling good with a ton of motivation and energy. I dropped off the kids for their last day of school. Going to be really busy the next couple days getting everything ready and hosting my birthday party.

Let the 2x4ís commence.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/24/19 02:46 PM
Oh man just when I thought it was going to be a slow day.

Originally Posted by curtis7
H: It was different and it was hard...but I enjoyed the time with the kids (I placed my hand in her hair behind her head and gently pulled her towards me)
You pulled her towards you by the hair?

Originally Posted by curtis7
As I initially held her, thoughts of the vets on the board and their reactions to this decision instantly consumed me.

LOL. I bet.
Originally Posted by curtis7
I think I was motivated by reading P_Jamís sitch and that he recently had sex with his WW. I felt my sitch had some parallels to his and wanted to find out if I could have similar success.

Curtis your situation is nothing like PJs except your Ws have had multiple affairs. What makes you think they are the same?
Originally Posted by curtis7
I donít know if it helped or hurt my sitch or set me back, but last night I didnít really care because I enjoyed it.
Enjoying holding a woman against her will is a little scary Curtis. You have to learn to control your emotions.
Originally Posted by curtis7
No matter how cruel her words and actions have been, the fact remains that I love this woman and sheís still the only companion I want to be with.

Why? Give me three reasons and don't use she is the mother of my children.

Look I don't think you helped or hurt your chances. Nothing changes. She is still free to date, come by and see her horse and the kids when she wants and has a free pass to come home if she hits rock bottom. Sounds like a pretty good deal for her right?

"I am not there yet" is a WW breadcrumb that she hopes will keep you fat and happy for awhile.

Are you in IC?
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/24/19 03:45 PM
Curtis, I agree with LH, I got a creepy vibe reading your post. I get that you are starving for some touch and affection but trying to get it from her is not much different than trying to grope a neighbor. That's kind of where she's at right now mentally, she doesn't see you as her H. More like a neighbor or relative (like an uncle). So just try to back off of that. You're right about the GAL working and her getting curious about you, that is good. You just have to be careful not to jump the gun and try to reel her in every time you get a positive sign or it sets you back to the beginning. Go back to your GAL and giving her time and space. If you need physical touch then maybe go out dancing or something!
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/24/19 04:18 PM
Originally Posted by curtis7
She looked somewhat uneasy and uncomfortable. ....I didnít really care because I enjoyed it.


We all have 4 fingers pointing back at us when we are judging the spouses that walked away from us.


How selfish. Put yourself in her shoes.
Posted By: IHCLACS Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/24/19 06:24 PM
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Originally Posted by curtis7
She looked somewhat uneasy and uncomfortable. ....I didnít really care because I enjoyed it.


We all have 4 fingers pointing back at us when we are judging the spouses that walked away from us.


How selfish. Put yourself in her shoes.


R2C A couple of weeks ago I was going over my sich with a co-worker and he said exactly the same thing to me. It really made me think so much introspectively that I started writing down all the things that I was feeling, and an accomplished exactly that. It made me realize the areas of my life that I was unaware of and was selfish in including many other things and dynamics. That is great advice.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/24/19 08:46 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
You pulled her towards you by the hair?

LOL. No, I didnít pull her by the hair. Ok, I didnít do a good job describing the embrace. I ran my hand through her hair and caressed the back of her head. My other hand was around her back as we hugged with her head over my shoulder.
Originally Posted by LH19
Curtis your situation is nothing like PJs except your Ws have had multiple affairs. What makes you think they are the same?

Not the same, but similarities as in many sitches. Multiple affairs, BDíd and physically separated for about the same amount of time, both shuffling kids and co-parenting, neither of us willing to be martyrs indefinitely, both made many mistakes in applying DB principles, etc.
Originally Posted by LH19
Enjoying holding a woman against her will is a little scary Curtis. You have to learn to control your emotions.

She wasnít fighting or being held while trying to escape. She responded more like a neighbor or friendly acquaintance that doesnít throw themself into your arms. I didnít know how she would react. You may have a good idea based on the history of WWs, but I wanted to find out where she was at in that moment. I donít regret it as it was a strong and confident action. It expressed that there is a paved and smooth path home for her. She may have previously viewed that path full of potholes and roadblocks based on my confrontation with her at the beginning of the month regarding living in an open marriage.
Originally Posted by curtis7
No matter how cruel her words and actions have been, the fact remains that I love this woman and sheís still the only companion I want to be with.
Originally Posted by LH19
Why? Give me three reasons and don't use she is the mother of my children.

Reasons donít capture the essence of why I love her. I love her because I love her. I never decided to be be with her, rather I chose to be with her. Therefore, I choose to love her, not based on reasons that are easily expressed. Nevertheless, Iíll take a stab at a few reasons. The kids are a major factor, but Iíll exclude them for the time being.
1) I am completely fulfilled mentally, emotionally, and physically with her.
2) I value my marriage vows and the promise I made to her.
3) I am in love with my best friend, she knew the darkest parts of me and loved me anyways.
4) I grew into an adult with her.
5) I am a better person because of her, she teaches me humility and how to love others.
6) I experienced passionate which later transformed into compassionate love with her.
7) I have an intimate bond with her and she will always be the most important woman in my life and I will always be the most important man in her life (ok, this one is mostly because of the kids)
Oh, was I supposed to stop at 3?

Donít get me wrong, I live a great, low stress life. It truly has been amazing and I have been tremendously blessed. I have learned throughout this process that I donít need her, but rather I want to be with her. She enhances my life in so many aspects. In my recent revelations and self-discovery, Iíve learned that I now crave a deeper connection with her. Something more substantive and meaningful. Intimacy rather than surface level attraction, closer to unconditional love.

I read a story about a woman on the radio that had been married for over 50 years. She said, ďIt's normal for a spouse to fall in and out of love throughout the many years of a marriage. The key is not having both people fall out of love at the same time." My W may have fallen out of love right now, but I have not. This is what gives us and our family a chance at surviving this crisis.

I also try to appreciate that my W is in a fog and she may eventually realize that the grass is not always greener. I want to be the lighthouse that represents a stable home environment and AMOAFWL. She may realize that she has a wonderful H that loves her and is a great father to our children. If she doesnít, she stands to lose everything that is so dear to her. Her MR and family.

I try to remember that life is long. In the heat of the moment, what feels super important will likely fade in importance as time goes by. Before reacting by yelling, tossing insults, or unkind words, I remember that ďThis, too, shall passĒ. So, I get strength from not letting one unfortunate incident, difficult argument, or challenging moment destroy my lifetime of happiness.

Originally Posted by LH19
Look I don't think you helped or hurt your chances. Nothing changes. She is still free to date, come by and see her horse and the kids when she wants and has a free pass to come home if she hits rock bottom. Sounds like a pretty good deal for her right?

Yes, it does sound good for her. Although, Iím not going to wait around forever. Also, I canít ignore how unhappy she must have been to walk away from everything that we have built and experienced together. While cheating is NEVER justified, I am sympathetic that these are her feelings and that she feels she canít be with me right now.

Originally Posted by LH19
"I am not there yet" is a WW breadcrumb that she hopes will keep you fat and happy for awhile.

Weíll see, and that might have been what I needed to continue DBing. Breadcrumbs give the LBS hope. Sometimes that helps to remind us that it is worth it to stay the course and continue to monitor for small improvements. I can ride this small nugget through vacation with kids until the end of June. Then, I plan to re-evaluate my sitch based on where the two of us are at.

Originally Posted by LH19
Are you in IC?

I am not. W was last year which helped lead up to BD. I choose to better myself through self-help/improvement books, podcasts, confiding in a couple close positive minded friends, and obviously support from this community.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander
You just have to be careful not to jump the gun and try to reel her in every time you get a positive sign or it sets you back to the beginning. Go back to your GAL and giving her time and space. If you need physical touch then maybe go out dancing or something!

AS, youíre right. It had been so long since I had a positive vibe from her and rather than remaining patient and continuing to build on that over time, I tried to rush the process. I realized that as soon as I moved in to hug her. Lesson learned.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change
We all have 4 fingers pointing back at us when we are judging the spouses that walked away from us.
How selfish. Put yourself in her shoes.

R2C, I couldnít predict her reaction with absolute certainty. She felt that I neglected her needs for a long time which contributed to the S. I thought it was important to show some vulnerability, that Iíve accepted where weíre at, and that I am a safe place if she chooses to return.
Posted By: neffer Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/24/19 09:35 PM
Oh man, the last sentence of your post above is really hard to read. It kills the counterintuitive environment that you need to develop. Trust the process. And concerning W stick to believe nothing of what she says, as usual.

Anyway, the cycle up will come faster and with more energy each time.

So reset counter and aim for your goal again. Getting into amoafwl.

Go man, you have the strength. Keep DB
Posted By: LH19 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/25/19 12:22 AM
Curtis I wrote out a long post I deleted because it was too harsh and I'm probably the harshest poster here. You got to get stronger or this is going to end very badly for you. You have two boys who you have to teach not to be pushed around. Get into IC. Books and podcasts are not enough. You're very confused on what to do and you're not heeding the advice of the board and you need some guidance.

I have read number 5 on your list like ten times and every time I say WTF?

I'm at a loss.

Good luck my friend!
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/25/19 10:54 PM
Quote
Curtis I wrote out a long post I deleted because it was too harsh and I'm probably the harshest poster here.


You too, LH19? I delete posts all the time, b/c I think they are too harsh. frown

**************************************************************************************************

Well Curtis, you know you messed up, but what concerns me is that you don't care that you messed up. I'm not going to beat you up about it, but I will point out a few places simply b/c you didn't seem to have a clue about how she tried to show you she wasn't into what you were doing.

Call me crazy, but I don't see it very manly to ask your WW for a hug. Neither do I agree that a LBH way to his WW's heart is by showing his vulnerability to her. Just isn't what makes her go for him.

The minute you placed your hand in her hair and behind her neck, she immediately knew you were going to make a move she didn't welcome. How do I know? B/c touching her hair and putting your hand behind her neck are intimate touches. It instantly put her on guard. That's why she said, "What are you doing?"

Quote
H: Can I have a hug?
W: Sure...did you have a good birthday?


Can you see how it makes you appear weak? If not, then you won't learn from it. A husband has to appear strong to the WW, not weak, not vulnerable, and not needy. If the H shows he is vulnerable, then she feels she has to be the stronger one......and that's not what women want in their MR. The W wants a H who is stronger than she is.

It seems she tried to be nice, while turning the direction she saw this going by distracting you. So, she brings up the subject of your birthday.

Quote
H: It was different and it was hard...but I enjoyed the time with the kids (I placed my hand in her hair behind her head and gently pulled her towards me)


Were you trying to get her sympathy, while still moving in for more physical touch?

Quote
H: What are you thinking? (after a few seconds and moving apart slightly with my arms still wrapped around her lower back)


Just bad all the way around.

Quote
W: Weíre not there yet.


Enough said! That is all the woman needed to say. Was the message received? You tell me.

Quote
H: I understand, we miss you (while looking her in the eyes).


What is it you understood? That she didn't welcome the physical touching, or you prying into her thoughts?
When you saw she wasn't going along with you, is that when you decided to lay a big ole guilt trip on her?

Quote
W: Whoís we?
H: Me and the kids.
W: They get to see me.



Quote
H: Youíre right they do. Itís late, you better go (still holding her in my arms and pulling her into me, she was not falling into me, I could tell it was not the time to press further, so I let her go)


When did you finally realize it was not the time to press further. Look Curtis, this is your W and you should be able to read her better than this. I get that her wayward mindset has thrown you, but come on. The second she asked what you were doing......you should have dropped her like a hot potato.

I said I wouldn't beat you up. So, this is me not beating you up, okay? Seriously, I want you to see what I'm trying to show you here. I don't think this interaction could be considered as her throwing you breadcrumbs.......not from my viewpoint, b/c at this particular time you were pursuing very strongly.......and told us you didn't care. Do you care that you'll have to work twice as hard to convince her she's lost you? Cause that's what it will take for her to even start to be interested.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/27/19 08:46 PM
Originally Posted by neffer
Oh man, the last sentence of your post above is really hard to read. It kills the counterintuitive environment that you need to develop. Trust the process. And concerning W stick to believe nothing of what she says, as usual.

Anyway, the cycle up will come faster and with more energy each time.

Hi Nef, trust me, I donít believe her words, they are empty, her actions show that. What do you mean by the cycle up?

Originally Posted by LH19
Curtis I wrote out a long post I deleted because it was too harsh and I'm probably the harshest poster here. You got to get stronger or this is going to end very badly for you. You have two boys who you have to teach not to be pushed around. Get into IC. Books and podcasts are not enough. You're very confused on what to do and you're not heeding the advice of the board and you need some guidance.

I have read number 5 on your list like ten times and every time I say WTF?

LH, I should caveat that numbers 1 and 5 were pre-BD.

I do appreciate the advice on the board and admit I have slipped up a few times reacting to emotions before vetting here. Youíre right that I have to get stronger. W takes advantage of me regularly. Case in point, sheíll send me texts in the afternoon asking if I can feed her horse at night. I always do the favor. Then she goes to hang out with OM or divorced BFF. Iím enabling her bad behavior. My kids wonít be witnessing this indefinitely. She will have to make a choice. I deserve better treatment and to be loved.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/27/19 09:45 PM
Originally Posted by sandi2
Well Curtis, you know you messed up, but what concerns me is that you don't care that you messed up. I'm not going to beat you up about it, but I will point out a few places simply b/c you didn't seem to have a clue about how she tried to show you she wasn't into what you were doing.

Hi Sandi, I do care. I read her too. When I reacted to the impulse, moved in to hugged her, and she didnít wrap her arms around me, that was a clear indication she wasnít into it. I couldnít figure out how to escape and prolonged the mistake.

Originally Posted by sandi2
The minute you placed your hand in her hair and behind her neck, she immediately knew you were going to make a move she didn't welcome. How do I know? B/c touching her hair and putting your hand behind her neck are intimate touches. It instantly put her on guard. That's why she said, "What are you doing?"

Yes, I could see it in her eyes. Almost slowly twitching back and forth with an air of fear. Not good and confirmed she has no interest in intimacy with me.

Originally Posted by sandi2
Quote
H: Can I have a hug?
W: Sure...did you have a good birthday?
Can you see how it makes you appear weak? If not, then you won't learn from it. A husband has to appear strong to the WW, not weak, not vulnerable, and not needy. If the H shows he is vulnerable, then she feels she has to be the stronger one......and that's not what women want in their MR. The W wants a H who is stronger than she is.
Quote
H: It was different and it was hard...but I enjoyed the time with the kids (I placed my hand in her hair behind her head and gently pulled her towards me)

Were you trying to get her sympathy, while still moving in for more physical touch?

Yes, I suppose I was hoping she would soften in that moment. I hadnít held her like that in over half a year and I thought she might feel something. She has been so reluctant to put herself in close proximity to me, I decided to give the opportunity. Itís so painful and really hurts that it didnít elicit a positive response. I donít know how LBS can tolerate rejection like this for years.

Originally Posted by sandi2

Quote
W: Weíre not there yet.

Enough said! That is all the woman needed to say. Was the message received? You tell me.

Sure was, but I donít think thatís the message I should receive and grasp. Her response indicates there is hope for us in the future. Iím told not to believe anything she says. I donít get the feeling from her that there is any hope.

Originally Posted by sandi2
Quote
H: I understand, we miss you (while looking her in the eyes).
What is it you understood? That she didn't welcome the physical touching, or you prying into her thoughts?
When you saw she wasn't going along with you, is that when you decided to lay a big ole guilt trip on her?
Quote
W: Whoís we?
H: Me and the kids.
W: They get to see me.

I understood that she wasnít ready/didnít want physical touch. It wasnít intended to be a guilt trip. I wanted her to know that the door was open to come home.
Originally Posted by sandi2
I said I wouldn't beat you up. So, this is me not beating you up, okay? Seriously, I want you to see what I'm trying to show you here. I don't think this interaction could be considered as her throwing you breadcrumbs.......not from my viewpoint, b/c at this particular time you were pursuing very strongly.......and told us you didn't care. Do you care that you'll have to work twice as hard to convince her she's lost you? Cause that's what it will take for her to even start to be interested.

Sandi, I appreciate your insight as a former WW. Your perspective helps me understand what she is going through and how she responds to my words and actions. Patience is so difficult while in limbo with a WW. I realize this was strong pursuit. As I mentioned before, DB is about finding out what works and what doesnít work. Chalk this one up on the doesnít work side.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/28/19 01:01 PM
Originally Posted by curtis7

1) I am completely fulfilled mentally, emotionally, and physically with her.
2) I value my marriage vows and the promise I made to her.
3) I am in love with my best friend, she knew the darkest parts of me and loved me anyways.
4) I grew into an adult with her.
5) I am a better person because of her, she teaches me humility and how to love others.
6) I experienced passionate which later transformed into compassionate love with her.
7) I have an intimate bond with her and she will always be the most important woman in my life and I will always be the most important man in her life (ok, this one is mostly because of the kids)


Curtis, you are clearly a romantic at heart and I think that's great. But that list is filled with NEED, and you do not NEED someone else to have a complete and fulfilled life. Now you may WANT someone to share that life with and that is fine. But needing someone to "complete you" is extremely unhealthy.

I really do hope that in time your W comes to appreciate you again. But right here, right now, she doesn't. She doesn't want anything to do with you, and you have got to respect that. You clearly love your wife, so I am going to challenge you to present her the ultimate show of true love- let her go. Quit the pursuit, quit the physical touches, quit finding reasons to help her and constantly get yourself in front of her. Those things are all about what YOU want. If you love her then you will set YOUR needs aside and fulfill HER needs, and right now her greatest needs are TIME and SPACE away from you. Do you think you can do that?
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/28/19 01:41 PM
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Originally Posted by curtis7

1) I am completely fulfilled mentally, emotionally, and physically with her.
2) I value my marriage vows and the promise I made to her.
3) I am in love with my best friend, she knew the darkest parts of me and loved me anyways.
4) I grew into an adult with her.
5) I am a better person because of her, she teaches me humility and how to love others.
6) I experienced passionate which later transformed into compassionate love with her.
7) I have an intimate bond with her and she will always be the most important woman in my life and I will always be the most important man in her life (ok, this one is mostly because of the kids)


Curtis, you are clearly a romantic at heart and I think that's great. But that list is filled with NEED, and you do not NEED someone else to have a complete and fulfilled life. Now you may WANT someone to share that life with and that is fine. But needing someone to "complete you" is extremely unhealthy.

I really do hope that in time your W comes to appreciate you again. But right here, right now, she doesn't. She doesn't want anything to do with you, and you have got to respect that. You clearly love your wife, so I am going to challenge you to present her the ultimate show of true love- let her go. Quit the pursuit, quit the physical touches, quit finding reasons to help her and constantly get yourself in front of her. Those things are all about what YOU want. If you love her then you will set YOUR needs aside and fulfill HER needs, and right now her greatest needs are TIME and SPACE away from you. Do you think you can do that?


TRUTH DART FROM AS!
Posted By: AlisonUK Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/28/19 02:08 PM
Curtis, we don't know each other and I haven't commented on your post before. But I wondered if a woman's POV here might be helpful to you? I don't know the history of your marriage, the way physical contact and affection played out between the two of you, how your intimate life was - anything like that. I don't know if your wife is a survivor of rape or CSA (many women are, and many women don't tell their husbands) but I can promise you this - the fact that you wanted physical contact with her, she didn't but seemed to go along with it anyway because she either felt sorry for you, or wanted to avoid the consequences - however minor - of upsetting you - and that you knew she wasn't up for this physical contact but went and took what you wanted and enjoyed it anyway - is very very sinister. Love is patient and kind. Love is not about you getting what you want out of someone who does not want to give it. I am putting this in a hard way but I think it is so important.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/28/19 03:20 PM
I would echo what Alison said from a guy's perspective. I have struggled with much of the same types of issues in my own MR. I had a couple of rules: if she ever said no, that was the end of it. (That doesn't mean I didn't pout or whine or complain or get resentful, which also was not good, but I didn't PRESS her on it in the moment.) If she reluctantly said ok, but I sensed any sort of resistance, I would not continue either. (Again, not that I handled it well afterward.)

I am not sure if Alison is going at this from a legal standpoint, I certainly am not. I think there is a huge difference LEGALLY with a W doing her "wifely duties" out of obligation versus rape. I know some that tend to lean a little left on this topic and probably take a harder stand, which I would disagree with.

However, from an emotional standpoint this is VERY VERY important. As Alison said "Love is patient and kind. Love is not about you getting what you want out of someone who does not want to give it." Your W has to feel safe with you. Pressing her on it and her "giving in" might not have legal ramifications (and shouldn't), but emotionally she could put you in the category of a sexual abuser. And that obviously could have detrimental impacts on your relationship with her.

Further, guy to guy. Is that really that satisfying? I mean, at that point masturbation would be just as "satisfying". Not to get to explicit, but if she isn't into it she just becomes a hole to you anyway.
Posted By: AlisonUK Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/28/19 03:55 PM
Oh no - not a legal standpoint. I don't really want to get into that side of things anyway - as I didn't mean to even slightly imply that I thought Curtis was being rapey - I didn't mean that. What I did mean was that perhaps taking enjoyment in contact with someone who you knew in the moment didn't want to give it was something to do a real 180 on. As a woman, I've reluctantly gone along with all kinds of contact - from a hug to sexual intercourse - because I didn't feel like dealing with the consequences of hurting a man's feelings or making him feel rejected. I've never feared violence, but I have been worn down to the point of tears by sulking etc. It feels easier in the moment to let him have the hug (and just to be clear, I am not talking about my current H - who has many flaws but this is not one of them) but what grows in my heart in that moment is contempt. And contempt is the absolute kiss of death to respect, love, desire, friendship - every single scrap of the good stuff. It is THAT important.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/28/19 04:56 PM
Originally Posted by AlisonUK
Curtis, we don't know each other and I haven't commented on your post before. But I wondered if a woman's POV here might be helpful to you? I don't know the history of your marriage, the way physical contact and affection played out between the two of you, how your intimate life was - anything like that. I don't know if your wife is a survivor of rape or CSA (many women are, and many women don't tell their husbands) but I can promise you this - the fact that you wanted physical contact with her, she didn't but seemed to go along with it anyway because she either felt sorry for you, or wanted to avoid the consequences - however minor - of upsetting you - and that you knew she wasn't up for this physical contact but went and took what you wanted and enjoyed it anyway - is very very sinister. Love is patient and kind. Love is not about you getting what you want out of someone who does not want to give it. I am putting this in a hard way but I think it is so important.

Hi Allison, thanks for your feedback. There is no history of sexual abuse for my W that Iím aware of. All indications are that she went along with the hug as a way of being nice. Nothing was forced and she wasnít held against her will. It was my attempt to connect and her response made it clear she is not interested in connecting right now.

Also, since Iíve stopped snooping and we are physically separated, I donít know if she is still participating in PAs/EAs with OM. I assume she is based on recent history, but I donít know for certain. The hug may may have been my temp check to find out if she had given that up.

Saying that I didnít care was a poor choice of words. In hindsight, I think it was my way of rationalizing the rejection to myself. I do care about her feelings and certainly want them to be filled with more positive than negative feelings about me. Your POV follows R2Cís and Sandiís. This point has been belabored. I regret attempting to hug her now had I been able to foresee that she wasnít going to be receptive to it. Moving on from that mistake.

Originally Posted by Steve85
I would echo what Alison said from a guy's perspective. I have struggled with much of the same types of issues in my own MR. I had a couple of rules: if she ever said no, that was the end of it. (That doesn't mean I didn't pout or whine or complain or get resentful, which also was not good, but I didn't PRESS her on it in the moment.) If she reluctantly said ok, but I sensed any sort of resistance, I would not continue either. (Again, not that I handled it well afterward.)

However, from an emotional standpoint this is VERY VERY important. As Alison said "Love is patient and kind. Love is not about you getting what you want out of someone who does not want to give it." Your W has to feel safe with you. Pressing her on it and her "giving in" might not have legal ramifications (and shouldn't), but emotionally she could put you in the category of a sexual abuser. And that obviously could have detrimental impacts on your relationship with her.

Steve, sounds like we had some of the same behaviors. There was a period of time after our second child was born that she wasnít in the mood as often as I was. No definitely meant no, but that didnít stop me from hemming and hawing about it to make her feel guilty. But, I also wanted her to be into it, not obligatory or out of pity, so I would back off even when she would give in. I recognized that wasnít productive or healthy for our relationship and stopped that a few years ago.

Near the end of last year when I found an early handwritten version of her BD drop letter, she stated that she didnít feel cherished. I think this follows what you and Allison are alluding to with regards to love is patient, Love is kind and how negative interactions in this area can cause severe emotional damage. I have developed a much deeper appreciation for how women attach emotions to negative experiences and never let go of those memories. It builds walls and resentment that are extremely difficult to bring down. My belief is that time and consistency of positive behavior can chip away at the armor guarding her heart and that will be when she is open to R. The things we learn after crisis...I just hope and pray that one day I will be able to show her that it will be different and not repeated.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/28/19 05:55 PM
Originally Posted by AnotherStander

Curtis, you are clearly a romantic at heart and I think that's great. But that list is filled with NEED, and you do not NEED someone else to have a complete and fulfilled life. Now you may WANT someone to share that life with and that is fine. But needing someone to "complete you" is extremely unhealthy.

I really do hope that in time your W comes to appreciate you again. But right here, right now, she doesn't. She doesn't want anything to do with you, and you have got to respect that. You clearly love your wife, so I am going to challenge you to present her the ultimate show of true love- let her go. Quit the pursuit, quit the physical touches, quit finding reasons to help her and constantly get yourself in front of her. Those things are all about what YOU want. If you love her then you will set YOUR needs aside and fulfill HER needs, and right now her greatest needs are TIME and SPACE away from you. Do you think you can do that?

I do want her, Iíve always wanted her. Although, two months of physical separation has shown me that I donít need her. I can be a happy single dad, but I want more. I have a great life that from my POV is only lacking in one area and thatís a partner to give and receive love. My preference is for that void to be filled by the only woman Iíve ever loved and is the mother of my children. I have always valued a strong, loving family unit (father and mother, not father and OW) highly and want that for myself and my children. This is a main reason I choose to continue DBing.

I respect that she wants nothing to do with me other than co-parent right now. I have made drastic improvements with TIME and SPACE since BD. In the first couple months, I pursued and pressured almost daily. This scaled back to about every 3 days in January, a week or more in February, and several weeks at a time since March. I think not stopping her from moving out was giving her space. I am trying to remove myself from being in front of her. I do and have slipped up from impulsive reactions or triggers.

You ask if I can give her time and space? My honest answer is I donít know. I can in stretches, I just donít know how much more time I can give her without my wants being addressed. I find it helpful to establish short-term milestones to give her time and space, then once that date is met, establishing a new target. For instance, move out in early April to my birthday last week, now through California vacation with the kids at the end of June, then anniversary in late August. If I can continue to focus on leaving her alone over these shorter periods, then over time it will accumulate to long-term time and space that she needs.

Thanks AS!!
Posted By: AlisonUK Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/28/19 07:02 PM
I admire the way you've taken some really strong feedback on board, Curtis. I know how hard it is.

In my marriage, it has more often been the other way around - with me wanting physical affection and touch and intimacy, and reacting with gracelessness when it has not been available / on offer. I've pouted and cried and I admit to myself now these behaviours are emotionally coercive and the fact that I'm a woman doesn't change that. It's not easy.

Posted By: sandi2 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/28/19 09:46 PM
Quote
Yes, I suppose I was hoping she would soften in that moment. I hadnít held her like that in over half a year and I thought she might feel something. She has been so reluctant to put herself in close proximity to me, I decided to give the opportunity. Itís so painful and really hurts that it didnít elicit a positive response. I donít know how LBS can tolerate rejection like this for years.


I'm truly sorry, Curtis. I don't know why men continue to think women are wired the same as men....or vise versa. For a woman, it doesn't matter how long it has been........if she doesn't feel the attraction, it's more simple for her just to buy a vibrator. Unless the W's primary love language is physical touch, then I suspect the longer periods of time the couple has no sex while living together.....the less she will desire him (considering there are no health issues with one of them). Here's the thing, if her H has not spoken in her love language, and her emotional needs weren't met.......then eventually, she's going to feel neglected, hurt and resentful. If it continues, those negative feelings will breed disrespectful feelings for her H. And once her respect starts dropping......her attraction/desire level is going to drop as well. The longer the disrespect continues, the less she'll want him. Plus, she eventually puts herself at risk for some OM who comes along as speaks her LL.

I'm sure you guys get sick of hearing me hammer about her respect tied to her level of desire/love for her H.....but until you get it, and stop trying other avenues......it just won't change anything. It's her fault that she allowed her mindset to become so wayward. She fed her mind with the constant negative thinking, and maybe, he didn't do much to help......know what I mean? I maintain that waywardness is a choice. Nobody forces someone to be wayward. At the same time, I feel many H's are feeling your pain, b/c they just didn't just didn't know what they didn't know. They may be well educated in the act of sex......but if they don't understand the concept of how she must see him through eyes of respect for him as a man, before she can desire/love him as her H......then one them, at the least, is not going to be totally happy in the MR. Maybe I should stop saying respect and say "admire".

Quote
She has been so reluctant to put herself in close proximity to me, I decided to give the opportunity. Itís so painful and really hurts that it didnít elicit a positive response. I donít know how LBS can tolerate rejection like this for years.


((hugs)) You just need to learn that men & women are different, and stop using methods that are not effective with her.
Yes, her heart feels very cold toward you. And, I'm sorry you are suffering. Men always see this as rejection, and often times a W will go through the sex act, just to live with him. Otherwise, he gets an attitude, and then she's going to get one.....and you have bedroom problems. As a woman, I try to see how men take it so personally. But I'm going to go to another level and tell you men that sometimes, we women just get tired of hearing how you feel so rejected b/c we didn't want to have sex. Here's how the R starts to deteriorate, b/c for mentally well women who were in love when they M (not one with a sense of entitlement, a bully, etc.) there came a point where she felt neglected (rejected) and devalued (rejected), too. She tries to push this feeling down, but it is not resolved. It turns to resentment, and goes from there. So, if her heart is cold, then he needs to start by commanding respect under his own roof and see if it brings positive results. Rather than sulk for a days, he should get busy examining how he has allowed her to show disrespect to him. Now, notice I didn't say she "felt" disrespect, but showed it. B/c if she takes advantages of his nice-guy ways (and she will), that just one little example of disrespect. It's his fault if he ignores it and doesn't address it.

Think back about all the times your W took advantage of your good nature. How many times did you think it would soften her heart if you gave in and did her work....or whatever she was after. A woman will not respect the person she can take advantage of.......especially her spouse.

I'm going to respond in another post.....or two.....who knows where I'll stop.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/28/19 10:57 PM
Quote
Youíre right that I have to get stronger. W takes advantage of me regularly. Case in point, sheíll send me texts in the afternoon asking if I can feed her horse at night. I always do the favor. Then she goes to hang out with OM or divorced BFF. Iím enabling her bad behavior.


Yes, you are! So if you recognize that you enable her bad behavior, doesn't it make sense to stop the pattern? Do you feel like you did when you started showing her affection last time, and once you saw her reaction you didn't know how to get out of it? (I find that very hard to believe, when you persisted in pursuing.....but maybe it's b/c I don't understand how you mean.) Do you feel you have allowed her bad behavior for so long, that you don't know how to stop it at this point? You can stop do her favors. That would be a starting point. Stop rescuing her.

Quote
My kids wonít be witnessing this indefinitely.


Curtis, your children should never witness their father being disrespected, and him do nothing about it.

Quote
I would echo what Alison said from a guy's perspective. I have struggled with much of the same types of issues in my own MR. I had a couple of rules: if she ever said no, that was the end of it. (That doesn't mean I didn't pout or whine or complain or get resentful, which also was not good, but I didn't PRESS her on it in the moment.) If she reluctantly said ok, but I sensed any sort of resistance, I would not continue either. (Again, not that I handled it well afterward.)


I'm glad Steve and Alison brought their thoughts on this subject. The above quote was from Steve, and it made me think of how a W lets her H know she doesn't want to have sex, or doesn't welcome his touch. Since I was a W who fell in this category, I'll have to admit that I don't remember ever just clearly telling him "No". I would either make some excuse, or give him a cold shoulder. I wonder how many wives don't actually say the word, "No"?

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I've never feared violence, but I have been worn down to the point of tears by sulking etc. It feels easier in the moment to let him have the hug (and just to be clear, I am not talking about my current H - who has many flaws but this is not one of them) but what grows in my heart in that moment is contempt. And contempt is the absolute kiss of death to respect, love, desire, friendship - every single scrap of the good stuff. It is THAT important.


Yes! Hear Alison's words. Contempt is a strong word, but it describes how I felt, too. I got pregnant right after the wedding, and being a newly wed young man.....my H was eager for bedtime to arrive. As the pregnancy progressed, I began experiencing pain whenever we had intercourse. I told him it hurt, but I didn't just come out and say, "Stop" or "No". So, he didn't stop, and the physical pain was bad enough, but the emotional pain set in motion the resentment. I don't mean to sound as if he raped me. He didn't. He is the most gentle man, but I felt as if he was taking what he wanted at the expense of my pain. I had this experience until the seventh month, and was so relieved when I told my H the doctor said no more sex until I delivered. Never had that pain with my other pregnancies, but years later this came up when my H and I were having one of our talks (or my talks) about our SSM. He admitted he thought it was just an excuse to not have sex. There I was pregnant with his child, enduring what felt like a butcher knife, for his sake........and he thought I was making it up. Well, that didn't help our SSM. This is like I was telling Curtis about men and/or women don't know what they don't know about the other gender. We aren't the same, and yet we act as if we think that is suppose to change without us attempting to learn our differences.

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Saying that I didnít care was a poor choice of words. In hindsight, I think it was my way of rationalizing the rejection to myself. I do care about her feelings and certainly want them to be filled with more positive than negative feelings about me. Your POV follows R2Cís and Sandiís. This point has been belabored. I regret attempting to hug her now had I been able to foresee that she wasnít going to be receptive to it. Moving on from that mistake.


Bless your heart, I bet you do feel that it has been belabored. smile Honestly, I am not picking on you or just wanting to go back over an old incident. This is how we learn, by picking these experiences apart and understanding why they failed. If you use a poor choice of words with our bunch......my the Lord have mercy on your soul, b/c we are going to spot it. wink You have been very good, as Alison pointed out, to take some tough responses. (And, I have been the toughest.) I hope you'll read our posts as if gathering information to grow and have a better relationship with your W, or whatever woman is in your future.

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I have developed a much deeper appreciation for how women attach emotions to negative experiences and never let go of those memories. It builds walls and resentment that are extremely difficult to bring down. My belief is that time and consistency of positive behavior can chip away at the armor guarding her heart and that will be when she is open to R. The things we learn after crisis...I just hope and pray that one day I will be able to show her that it will be different and not repeated.


I hope it happens, too. There are many good books written about women's emotional needs, how it affects their MR, etc.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 3) - 05/29/19 03:25 AM
Link to Part 4:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2850893
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