Divorcebusting.com
Posted By: BluWave 4 years pieced and still a work in progress! - 03/22/19 09:03 PM
I thought about calling this thread "4 years pieced and running out of things to post" but decided that doesn't sound nice. I feel as if I should be inspiring more hope. So I am going to think of an update with a more optimistic tone and put that below.

I still read along here and follow several of you, but I run out of things to say that are as pro-M as should be reflected on a divorce busting site ...

Happy Spring!

Blu


Thread 1:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2670289#Post2670289

Thread 2:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2677578&page=1

Thread 3:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2688297#Post2688297

Thread 4:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2712057&page=1

Thread 5:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2745868&page=1

Thread 6:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2745874&page=1

Thread 7:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2766229&page=1

Thread 8:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2788068&page=1
I don't have much to share at the moment, because things are rather status quo. My focus has been more on whats going on with my kids and work. I have been working a lot of OT in the last 4-5 months. I will share a story that now has meaning for me.

So a couple weeks ago I went out for a ladies night with my BF and her other friend. I don't know this lady but I know of her because my BF has told me a lot about her and apparently she knows everything about me. Let's call her Z. And I mean everything about me. My BF has always been supportive of me and my M. Despite having to hold my head above water during a difficult separation, she still sees my H as a good guy and father. She is the one that tells me that he is a good man and that because I have decided to stay with him that I should make more of an effort to create a better and closer connection. She sees that I can keep him at arms length.

Well, her buddy Z (after a couple drinks) apparently doesn't share this sentiment. And let me just say that at no point in the conversation did I ever ask this woman what her opinion is of my M or my H. She told me anyway. She has never been married, doesn't have kids, and hasn't even been in a long term R. She also dates guys half her age (hopefully not her students). I share all of this about her because not only does she not know me personally, but she hasn't a clue what my life is like. She lives with her mom.

So she quickly did learn something about me that evening, and that is that I am no gentle flower. If you are bold enough to openly pass judgement on me to my face, you are going to be met with a very uncomfortable confrontation. I guess she didn't expect that because she had trouble holding her position, answering my questions and even excused herself to the bathroom at one point. I told her, "come on now, you obviously think my H is a POS, so I am curious to know what it is that YOU think I should do differently with my life." She really just squirmed, as did my BF. Will I change my life decisions based on what this woman says about me? Of course not. But if you are going to talk chit to my face, you better back that up. It was a fun night.

So I am done with her (not that I ever cared to get started). In fact, I have not talked to my BF in almost 3 weeks. I am not angry, but I just need some space. Z only knows anything because of what she told her. I have been friends with my BF since childhood and I am sure this will get talked about, but right now I just don't feel like being around her. The nature of our friendship is that we talk a lot about our lives and intimate personal details. I don't believe that should be shared with our other friends/families.

So what have I learned from this? I can't make choices about my M based on what others think. I really can't. And I still have some shame to let go of. While that is easy to say, it's not as easy to do. We all care what people think. I mean, I only post light and flowery pics on SM, not heavy or personal posts. So yes, I care. But when it comes to day to day choices, or important life decisions, those can only be mine. I might have a BF that is so "pro- my M," or she may have a friend that is a judgmental b-tch, but they have never walked in my shoes. I really cannot let EITHER of them control me.

Mostly, I felt (and still feel protective) of my family -- and that includes my H -- in that moment. He is my family. I get to be mad at him and call him a POS, not her. Who is she? She is actually no one. She and my fears of people like her, and all the fears she has represented (when she went on her "I am a feminist" rant, which I don't believe one word of) do NOT get to control me anymore.

I am still letting go of fear.

Blu
Hi Blu. Yes, it's crazy how the last people on earth we would ever ask for an opinion are the first with the worst advice ever.

Sadly, my H called an ex-Aunt (his uncles xw) to get her counsel. I don't know what all she told my H, but whatever it was, he sure thought she was wise and decided that she knew stuff about stuff.

I argued (early after the BD) about how she has been D for 25+ years and never remarried, so she would be the last person I'd get M advice from, but I wish I would have handled it better. For myself, there have certainly been opinions about what I 'should' do and a lot of "if my H did that..."...we never know until we are here.

I hope you are able to remember that fear is a liar. You are not alone in that battle. Stay strong and I don't know you but as a fellow DBer I am proud as heck about you standing up for your M. Encouraging.
Originally Posted by BluWave
So what have I learned from this? I can't make choices about my M based on what others think. I really can't. And I still have some shame to let go of. While that is easy to say, it's not as easy to do.


I agree with this so much, because the shame is present at every step of the way. I'm considering what shame means for me as my W moves towards D. I sometimes wonder if part of the reason we want our spouses back *so* much is to avoid the shame of having failed. And maybe that's why those that start piecing find it so difficult - there is another layer to work through. And then you must determine if you want the M because you want your significant other, or because you want things to be "right" in your world again. I imagine it to be quite conflicting.

I hope I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm speaking only from what I've read in various folks' threads - not yours in particular.
hi Blu,
I saw your posts about H's and affairs on another thread, didn't want to bomb so am replying to you here. I totally agree with everything you said and I do think it is really helpful advice. I, too, didn't understand how H was having an affair--but he was-- so I'd like to add some things to what you said.
He said he needed "space" and moved out. Huge red flag- he needed space to pursue the affair and put me as plan B.
He got a new phone plan and number, eventually. He was texting some strange numbers that I saw but it stopped cold. And he didn't get a new phone for several months so I thought he stopped texting with what turned out to be the OW. Guess what, they skyped and messaged via skype, how clever they were.
H was very needy with me, needed to talk to me all the time, then suddenly was... alone in apt? Well no, he was skyping her all the time! Turns out, she lived quite far away so they didn't see each other too often.
All the disappearances added up, when he'd not be in contact for four or five days, then we'd meet.. well, he was going to see her or she was going to see him. The rest of the time he was "alone and depressed" in his apartment.
This was all when we were separated.
Like you said, there were signs, I could just tell there was someone else, I just didn't see how or who it could be.
I was the plan B. Like you, probably would have done things differently had I known that would be the case for a really long time. Too long.
Finally, he filed, because he and OW had decided to try to be together. After he filed and we finalized everything, I didn't hear from him. I didn't know they'd moved in together and were together for something like 2 years before it collapsed. I was pretty surprised to find all of this out recently, but it all adds up. Pretty painful to learn but I suppose a good thing.

Hope,
Thank you for replying! I agree. I think that sometimes those that shove their opninons down other poeple's throats can often be the ones with the biggest internal struggles. I am sorry to read about your H. One thing I had to learn in my sitch is that as much as I wanted to blame others -- mostly the OW, as I believe she steered him away -- the reality is that only he is responsible for his own actions. On the flip side, my former MIL (H's mom) was very supportive of me and also vocal to him that he was making a mistake. She had her own anger towards him, which caused him more shame. She would really hand it to him and that hurt him and forced him out of his fog.

Yail,
You are correct! There is this great book by Brene Brown about shame. It very much can influence us. And I think what you say makes a lot of sense. When our ego is so damaged, we cling to our S, and it can be hard to know how much we want them (and the M back) verses how much we our clinging out of fear of the unknown. My H has been back in our M for 4 years, so we have talked about almost everyhting. One thing he said early on is that he was afraid to come back because he didn't believe that I really wanted him. He felt he ruined things. He thought I just wanted to "win" him back and that how could I want a man that could do such a terrible thing (have an A and leave our home). He was not entirely wrong and it IS something that I have struggled with.

My H also had his own shame and ego to protect. Even when he was gone and we would have the occasional R talks, his words did not usually match his actions. He would tell me he was done and wanted D, but I could see/feel his ambilvalnce and sadness. He told me after returning that he was always afraid that he had made the wrong decsions, and that his guilt overwhelmed his thinking, but he also thought he was stuck and wouldn't be able to repair the damage if he did come back. So he not only had fear of what he had done, but he also had a fear to admit that he had made a huge mistake and then go back on it. He felt stuck no matter what he did.

Waves,
I appreciate your input! As I said in my post to her, I have been reading here for almost 5 years, even tho I don't post myself much. I have read the stories of 100s and 100s of posters. And nobody wants to ever beleive that there is any type of A or that their S is capable of that. And why would we want to? It so,so painful to think about! Even 4 years later I can say that the most hurtful part of my siutaion was the infidleity and thoughts of him with OW. It still seems unreal sometimes. He is the most loving and loyal man.

I really do not like to gender stereotype, but most of the posters here are heterosexual couples in Ms, and there are some distinct differences in the posters of the Hs verses the Ws. The Hs that come here are usually in one of two positions: they have a WAW or a WW. Often the WAW has been telling them of their unhappiness, until they give up and then eventually walkaway. Somtimes it is coupled with an A and somestimes not. It seems that these Ws are the least likely to return to the M. Then there are the waywards -- WWs and the WHs. They are often more running towards an A then they are away from their spouse. They are in limerance and are fantastic liars, and so good that they often convince us that it is our fault or that there is some other reason they need space -- time, work, depresion,MLC, etc, etc. I can't speak much to the MLC because I struggle with understanding what it means or the reality of it. It is not in the DSM. I don't even like using the term because then I see people use it as an excuse.

From my perspective, we should all follow the rules the same. So categorizing someone may not behoove us anyways. The thing about a wayward H tho, is that they can often be "won" back. I hate to even say that, because the philpsopy of DB is that we let them go with a goal of working on ourselves, and not winning them. They are no prize really and the have a lot of their own work/changes to make. In fact, we shouldn't even take them back until they have demonstrated change and remorse IMO.

Here is the thing I want people to know: If your H is having an A, he will not come back as long as he knows he can have you (and you are plan B). He has to know he has lost you, that you are strong on your own, and that you are moving on and will be just fine without him. I can garuntee that if I had understood this (through my devastation) and followed the rules here, from DAY 1, my H would not have left for OW. Of course that feels impossible. You cannot nice them back, show them what they are missing, and hope that they will work on the R, as long as the OW is still in the picture at all. I stand behind my beliefs no matter how hard posters try and convince me otherwise! My H would tell you the same thing and he lived it.

Blu
Blu,
This.

Originally Posted by BluWave



My H also had his own shame and ego to protect. Even when he was gone and we would have the occasional R talks, his words did not usually match his actions. He would tell me he was done and wanted D, but I could see/feel his ambilvalnce and sadness. He told me after returning that he was always afraid that he had made the wrong decsions, and that his guilt overwhelmed his thinking, but he also thought he was stuck and wouldn't be able to repair the damage if he did come back. So he not only had fear of what he had done, but he also had a fear to admit that he had made a huge mistake and then go back on it. He felt stuck no matter what he did.

Blu


I have been told the same thing. XH didn't think I'd ever be able to forgive him if I found out, but didn't think it would work out with OW either. He was on the fence for a very long time. And I was Plan B.
I'm struggling with all of this now because he reached out after years and came clean. It has triggered so many feelings (duh) I just don't know how to process this all. I'm stuck on thinking over that limbo period where we were separated and still married and if I would have done anything differently. I should probably go back to therapy, and i will check out the book you suggested. I did get the "im sorry i made the biggest mistake of my life and if i could go back in time i'd never have an A." How much guilt and shame he felt. Now, i just don't know what to DO, how to process, how to think. I mean, it was never really over, basically i saw him less and less and he told me he filed and was gone. I never knew until now that they were living together when he got the finalized paper and he told her he needed to be alone and cried all day. Just... heavy stuff.
Originally Posted by BluWave


Here is the thing I want people to know: If your H is having an A, he will not come back as long as he knows he can have you (and you are plan B). He has to know he has lost you, that you are strong on your own, and that you are moving on and will be just fine without him. I can garuntee that if I had understood this (through my devastation) and followed the rules here, from DAY 1, my H would not have left for OW. Of course that feels impossible. You cannot nice them back, show them what they are missing, and hope that they will work on the R, as long as the OW is still in the picture at all. I stand behind my beliefs no matter how hard posters try and convince me otherwise! My H would tell you the same thing and he lived it.



I find this interesting. I understand that I need to not be ok as Plan B. I have already proved to myself and others, and I'm sure him, that I am strong enough on my own, that I will be just fine without him, and that I am ok with moving on. However, he hasn't lost me. I feel like if he truly lost me, I wouldn't be wanting the M back at all. He left me before having our baby, so I have been on my own since day one with him, I am certainly strong enough to do this and be on our own. One thing I am trying to fully grasp: If I haven't filed for divorce, we haven't had one single conversation about it, doesn't that show him that I'm not fully moved on, that I would be willing to take him back. This does not mean that I want/am ready to file, just find that kind of contradictory in my book.
Oh, lot's of typos in my last post -- sorry, was at work and didn't have time to spell check.

Waves,
Wow, I am so sorry. That is terribly sad to read. I can also relate to so much of what you say, as my H said the exact same lines! He never saw himself in a long term R with her, he second guessed himself often, and he was afraid I would never forgive him. The main difference was that I found out about them after an extended EA and then I flipped my lid and kicked him out. So our interactions during that year we were separated we both knew that I knew about OW. I would really like to read your thread. I am going to do that and put some comments there.

othstr,
So he left before the baby was born while you were pregnant? That is just terrible. I cannot imagine what you went through. I am going to find your thread and read it too. I'll put some comments there. .... I think I understand what you are saying -- if they think they have completely lost you then that is contradictory to still wanting them back or being willing to take them back. It is a very, very fine line. It is also difficult to execute because we are human and our emotions often can interfere with how we would ideally like to communicate verses how we come across.

I think it also depends on what the D itself means to people. For me, the actual D is not necessarily the breakage of the union, but more the legal paperwork. IMO he already ended the M by having an A and then actually leaving and not trying to make it work. When my H was gone, I did my homework and I consulted an L. I soon learned that it would not make financial sense for me to file or even go through with a D. So even had my H not returned, and even if we were to separate today, I would not likely go through with a D. I would most likely lose my home, my community and my kids schools. I am not willing to do that. I would live separately form him and try my best to keep the kids in our house ... Others may not be in that situation and they may see that the D is the very end of the end of the M!

Another thing to note, is that not all WHs do return, and in fact most do not. Sadly, I think for some it's just too late, or for some their pride (or shame) prevents them from ever trying to return... Of the ones that do return, there seems to be a pattern of the LBS finally letting go, detaching, and starting to move on. She sends the message that she doesn't need him to be okay in life. He starts to feel that loss as she removes herself from plan B. She is simultaneously "paving the way home," in that he is no longer afraid of her hurt/anger - meaning she is approachable. And yes, it IS contradictory, which is another reason it is so hard. It is also hard to keep your emotional process private from a person that is no longer safe, but also send the message that you would possibly, maybe still be open to reconciliation. This also has to be done more with actions than words. So yes, it feels contradictory and it feels impossible. It took me about 6-9 months to put this into practice. When I finally "got it," my H did a very fast turn around.

Blu
Originally Posted by Bluwave
She is simultaneously "paving the way home," in that he is no longer afraid of her hurt/anger - meaning she is approachable.


I've never thought about "paving the way" in this way before! So often people see paving the way as being kind, or helpful, or other "lighthouse" activities. I've never seen someone use LEAVING as the paving the way. You're absolutely right that it is that absense of pressure and absense of anger (being approachable) that is also paving the way.

What an interesting way to see it.
Quote
Another thing to note, is that not all WHs do return, and in fact most do not. Sadly, I think for some it's just too late, or for some their pride (or shame) prevents them from ever trying to return... Of the ones that do return, there seems to be a pattern of the LBS finally letting go, detaching, and starting to move on. She sends the message that she doesn't need him to be okay in life. He starts to feel that loss as she removes herself from plan B. She is simultaneously "paving the way home," in that he is no longer afraid of her hurt/anger - meaning she is approachable. And yes, it IS contradictory, which is another reason it is so hard. It is also hard to keep your emotional process private from a person that is no longer safe, but also send the message that you would possibly, maybe still be open to reconciliation. This also has to be done more with actions than words. So yes, it feels contradictory and it feels impossible.


That's such a great insight. It is about balancing two very opposing ideas and that just creates the environment and opportunity for the WW/WH to make their way back if they choose to do so.

I also want to add that creating this environment doesn't necessarily guarantee a return or a desire to piece. I know you didn't mean to say that if you do this, the other person will come back. You're just creating the environment for something to happen if the other person chooses to do so.

It's also important to realize that the WW/WH needs to have the capability to engage in the recon process. Some are just not cut out for it. My exW has high anxiety issues and is hugely conflict avoidant. For her to have engaged in the recon process meant that she would have to confront everything about her as well, as well as the marriage. She just doesn't have it in her to do so. She'd rather be someone new and try it the second go around than face her demons. As much as I kept the path paved, there was no inclination on her part to do any of the hard work.

I hope she's happy and life works out for her, but she is not the piecing type. There would have to be a lot of personal growth on her part and getting professional help to address her issues, which she's not willing to do. So, there's not much you can do about it.

Having said that, people can surprise you in ways and I don't ever discount that, but I wasn't willing to wait around for a miracle to happen.
Truthfully you could DB like a JEDI master and it wouldn't matter.

IMO it has more to do with the spouse that is wanting out vs anything that the LBS does.
Thanks for weighing in guys. I think the concept of "paving the way home" changes due to the dynamic between the couple. I was quite emotional and angry and spent a bit of time lashing out at H when he ran off with OW. So in my sitch, I had to knock that off. I had to put on my poker face and show him indifference so that he felt safe to approach me at all. In the mean time I got better at GAL and detachment. So he saw my naturally moving on and planning my life without him (and I was). I started to remove myself as plan B and he naturally became more curious about what I was doing. He also became afraid that I would move on and not reconsider him, which is why he did a fast turn around. At the same time he was realizing more and more that OW was a big mistake. She wanted a more than he ever did and she had become his only ally so he had felt more stuck and she was less desirable to him.

The mistake I read here a lot is that people think that "paving the way home" means that they can work on the R while their S is gone. It doesn't work that way and it actually makes you a doormat. They might seem as if they are working on the R, but in reality they are just securing you as the back up plan in case they made a mistake. Sadly, what the LBS doesn't realize is that if you allow them to work on the R after they have just left you (and or are having an A) they are simultaneously losing respect for you. They will not want to come back, even if they are sending mixed messages that they might. Think about it from this angle: if your H or W leaves the M, and you are saying "I still love you. I am still here. Pick me," that actually makes you look weak and desperate. A strong and confident person would protect their hurt feelings and say "I am too good for this. I deserve better. I am taking care of me now." Because your S coming to you and saying they are unhappy is one thing, but when they pick up and leave or have an A, that is quite another! Why would you want someone that can treat you that way?

That is why I believe in the DB program here and Sandis rules. It is the only natural response. When someone leaves you, let them go. Focus on yourself and your kids. Become the best version of yourself. Don't try and work on the R, nice them back, or show them your changes. It won't work. You can only control one person and that is yourself. .... I read so many posters here making excuses for why their sitch is different, how the rules don't apply to them, why their S isn't having an A, and on and on. Nope. That is not how it works. Those of us that have been reading here for so many years, see the same patterns again and again.

Maika, is right as well. Even if you do follow the rules and even if you do everything perfect, many will still not come back. And for those that do, they must have changed first. It takes two strong people that are willing to look inside and change. That is asking a lot! They must also be remorseful, honest, and transparent, for piecing to work. Then and even then, like in my case, you can be 4 years down the road and still question it. It is so, so hard. .... So take care of yourself people, because you will always have yourself no matter what happens.

Blu
J - you just summed it up in one sentence that I was trying to say. Couldn't have it written more perfectly.

Blu - yes, if there is an A, attempts at 'paving the home' will come across as weak and the other person is losing even more respect for you. That's why you have to just walk away at that point and get your strength and dignity back so that you are never viewed as Plan B.

There is only so much the LBS can do and that's why the advice to become the best version of yourself for yourself is golden. If the other person wants to recon, then they must have done the work and made changes, not to mention true remorse, transparency, honesty, and some level of emotional fitness. For me I would always look for the person taking ownership and accountability of what they did - not just BD, but how they contributed to the deterioration of the M. Without that, there is nothing for me to work with. I wouldn't entertain a recon attempt without all of that.

And even if that happens, as you have so eloquently and painstakingly recorded here, the piecing journey is difficult and strewn with mines. So, it's a lot to take.

Ultimately, it's you with yourself for sure. Take care of that relationship first and you'll do more than fine.
I'm glad you updated your thread. As time goes on, we LBS's hopefully start to open our eyes and let go of our fear of "losing" our cheating spouses. As you said earlier, they were already gone. The downside to that is there are some posters here who decide they're done. I don't blame them either.

The "paving the way home" thing has really changed a lot for me. My view initially was to be the happy puppy dog who'd do anything when given some attention, but as time passes and as we work on detachment and getting through our emotions we can grow stronger and eventually act stronger. It's so tough reading the same stories over and over. It's even tougher to go re-read your own story and cringe at yourself. I haven't done that yet (b/c I'm fearful). True "paving the way home" is really letting go, not fighting, not getting mad or sad or annoyed at the things your WAS does.

Anyways, you know it [censored] that your friend told her friend all this info. I guess you have to qualify things even as adults. My stupid in laws lied to my face, telling me they wouldn't tell my W things I told them. Well, that was just another lesson learned, another strawberry on my knee from when I fell down. So anyways, hope all is as well as it can be!
BluWave- Thank you for sharing your story and imparting so much advice and wisdom here. I appreciate it enormously.

I wonder if you would be willing to talk about how the separation affected your children? What were their struggles? What helped at the time?

There seems to be a lot of information here about how LBS spouses deal with everything but so little information about how the kids deal. I know that I will get through this but the effects on my children of my husband breaking up our family cause me the most stress of all. My kids are young, 7 and 9, and their father is like their personal superhero. I know that everyone says that the kids get through it if you are strong but I am looking for a bit more of the nitty gritty than that. If you are willing to share, of course.

Thank you.
Hey Kate - while Blu gets back to you, let me share my experience with this and how it affected my kids.

I have two kids, 7 & 9 - same ages as yours. The separation period was hard in the beginning for them. My oldest especially was terrified that I wasn't coming back every time he would leave me to go with his mom. Obviously they didn't understand what was going on and we sat them down and gave them age appropriate info. I asked my exW to lead the convo as I wasn't breaking this to the kids.

Since then, over the past year, kids have reminisced about the family home and living a life together. My youngest is also very attached to me - I have a very strong bond with both my kids as I did take time away from my jobs to care for them when they were young. My youngest would also have many episodes where she wouldn't want me to leave. They have generally asked a few times about why the separation and why they are living in two places. Both of them have shown great frustration at living in two places over the year. My oldest had an emotional breakdown over a year ago when my exW said something really stupid to him - she should've framed it in a different way. But I got a call from the school that my oldest was just sad and crying and the Principal told me that he lashed out in class and when they talked to him, he said that his family was breaking apart. Man, my heart went out to him so badly. He said that that was what his mom had told him. What a dumb way to explain it to a kid. I went to school and got him and just gave him love. No talking no explanations, just love, hugs, and kisses.

For me, I knew that my journey towards self reclamation after BD included improving my relationship with the kids. Two books have been instrumental and totally transformative for me becoming a better parent and a better person in general: books by Dr. Shefali Tsabary and Robert W. Greene. Look them up.

In terms of the nitty gritty, the following things have worked really well for me and the kids:

1. Developing consistency in schedule and the kids knowing what their day and each week looks like - they both know the calendar and when they are with me and when they are with their mom.

2. Involving them in making 'family' decisions to give them a sense of control and belonging - we make weekly menus together; we plan activities together; etc. any decision that may affect them and it's reasonable to get them involved, I do it. They are learning how to cook with me now, which is fun

3. I started 'family' meetings. I realized that trying to talk to them about what they were feeling or school or whatever was getting difficult. So, 'family' meetings was a good way to create a fake structure to talk about stuff. Both kids take turns being the 'Chair' and we do once a week meetings. We co-create the agenda. I take this as an opportunity to share with them what's going on in my life and work and so there is a give and take about us sharing, and it's not just me asking them about their life. We do a Q&A session at the end when they get to ask any questions, which is always fun.

4. I highly prioritize their emotional health vs anything else in life or at school. I have been working with them to create self-awareness around emotions and even just naming them when they feel them and us discussing it later.

5. And love, kisses, hugs, storytime, games etc always always always

There is also another framework that I personally developed over a year ago. I call it the 'Law of Needs'. It goes like this. I recognized that I always minimized my needs in life and marriage and that was a huge detriment to my well being. Led to depression etc.

So, I vowed that I would not minimize my needs. However, with kids, I needed to figure out how I would balance that. Hence the 'Law of Needs'.

My needs and the kids needs (not our 'wants') are on the same level playing field, same dimension. They operate in parallel. However, there are shared needs and they overlap - it creates great opportunities to spend more quality time with the kids and do stuff together. But, there are also times when our needs clash. Whenever that happens, the kids needs always trump mine.

For example, I am tired and I need to lie down on the couch and rest, but the kids want to play a game or go for a walk or to the playground, I get my butt up from the couch and do what they want. Yes, I need to rest, but I can do that later too.

Having this framework has allowed me to make sure that everybody's needs are met and there is problem solving approach when I may have to defer my needs.

I would say that ultimately give your kids consistency, a sense of control and ownership over their lives, don't bad mouth the other parent and don't divulge anything to them that is not age appropriate. And super duper amounts of love, affection, hugs, and kisses.

Ultimately, as I improved myself and went through personal growth, my parenting improved tremendously. My relationship with my kids improved a thousand fold. What I have with them right now is just incredible. But I read, did experiments with different strategies, and fine tuned some stuff. Get yourself emotionally healthy and the rest will follow. My strategies might not work exactly for you, but you will figure out what works for you and your children.

More than happy to answer in more specificity and approaches I took. I have tons of examples to illustrate what I am talking about - let me know.
Maika- Thank you so much for your highly detailed response! It is very helpful to hear what other people have done to try and help their kids through this process. I will certainly look up the books you suggested. You have given me much to think about. Thank you again.
Kate - Just showing your H respect, not bad mouthing him in front of your kids, and making them choose sides will do wonders for how they make it through the situation. My XW and I still sit by each other at all of our kids activities and even though she has been dating her BF for over a year now I will not change how I currently operate just because he shows up.

In order to do this though I had to take the high road on many occasions but it was worth it for my girls.
Ovr, buddy, I think you are ready to face the challenge. I think you should go back and read your threads from day one. If anything, it will remind you how far you've come in this process.

kate, I saw your post yesterday and have been thinking about how to reply. I like what Maika wrote a lot. He is a DB champ and also a loyal dad. And I agree with TBSaka -- we should never bad mouth the other parent. Our kids have a right to love their other parent and develop their own relationships with them, no matter how many mistakes they may have made. Kids want to love and identify with both parents. They don't want to ever have to take sides and they shouldn't have to.

This topic is hard for me and one I have not addressed much on this site. I don't even know how to sum it up in one post, or even one thread. I have 3 Ds and they are my everything. That was a very hard time. I feel as if I could have done a better job protecting them during my separation. I also don't have too many regrets because instead of trying to shield my kids from adversity, I would rather give them tools to work through things. In several ways I did do that. They knew they could talk to me about anything and cry or even be angry. I give my kids that freedom.

My kids did had several struggles at that time, some were related to our sitch and some not. My oldest D was in HS and we had to send her to wilderness and then a therapeutic boarding school. It was devastating. However, she is now a young adult and doing quite well. We were just talking about this today and I am continually impressed by her strength and resilience. She was old enough to know what was going on at the time and I wasn't about to lie to her. I did have to remind her that none of it was her fault and that he still loved her and would be there for her. This was hard for her because her own bio dad had already abandoned her years before.

My middle girl, who is now in HS, seemed to handle things okay. She is also a quiet easy going kid, and doesn't make waves. It was hard to tell how she was processing it all. I do believe that what happened has caused her additional anxiety and depression in general, as did losing her big sister at that time. She had lost her grandpa (who had died months before BD), her stable family unit, and then her big sister was sent away. It was really rough on her.

The little D doesn't have a lot of memories of that time. She is also a very happy and adaptable kid in general. She just turned 9 last week. When we argue now and she hears anything, she gets upset, cries and then asks if we are getting divorced. That hurts a lot. My kids all want our family together. They seem more stable and secure when we are.

Some say that "you can't stay together just for the kids," while others say, "there is no better reason to stay together than for the kids." I actually agree with the latter. I made a commitment to my kids to have a family. I also see how much better off they are with our family intact, even if our M is not great. My H is a good guy and has done the work, so I feel like I owe it to my kids to make this work.

You asked what helped at the time. I think the best thing I did was protecting them emotionally. We didn't talk about heavy things around them and we remained civil, and even cordial, in front of them. We created a consistent schedule that we stuck to, so we both saw them every day or every other day. We told them how much we loved them and that our separation had nothing to do with them. We kept them in the family home and I would leave several evenings a week so he could be with them here. He only took them with him every other weekend. I made a strong point to be more present and engaging with them when I was with them. I also was honest with them and didn't lie: if they saw me cry and asked why I would tell them the truth. I would tell them that I was very sad and that I missed our family being together. I told them it was okay for them to cry and feel sad too. I think as hard as it was, they knew that we both would love them and support them, even if we were not together. I honestly think that while getting D is not ideal for kids, them knowing that is absolutely enough.

Blu
Here is the thing that people generally don't talk about when they have young kids. I mean under 9 generally. When they're this young, you have to given age appropriate explanations and let them know the separation isn't about them. The LBS and WS have to present a united front for the kids - which I believe is the right option. They are too young to understand what's going on and you want to try and minimize impact - in some ways that's a pipe dream and the impact can't be ascertained till years later.

What gets lost is the following.

The kids are going to grow up! And they're going to have questions. You best believe that I am not putting up a false front when they're old enough to know that their mother decided this and gave no chance to stay as a family. I won't share that until I am asked and I won't do it in a disparaging way to their mother. But I will give them the truth.

This truth is damaging. This will change their R with the mother in some capacity. They will find out that their mother didn't do everything possible to try and salvage the marriage. This is the piece that the WS don't realize - the full truth will come out in time and it will have its day. And that day is going to be ugly.

She has to live with this decision and all its consequences. Will the children get over it in time - I have no idea. But I damnnn well know that I can say that I did all I could. She can't say that.

So no matter how well you can handle it with the kids right now, you're just kicking the can down the road. I've seen this in my own life and in lives of some other folks. And this will be hard especially when the LBS is not a piece of $hit person that justified this decision.

There is a long term view to this that escapes most WS. The future will tell how it plays out.
Maika - I agree with this. My D19 and S21 haven't asked hardly any questions, but when I found out that OW is trying to convince H they should buy a place together, I told H that if he moves in with her, I will tell the kids. He immediately told me I was purposely trying to ruin his relationship with them. I calmly told him that no, I was just going to tell them the truth. He didn't like it. I don't care. I told him that I would never lie to the kids, and I would not try to ruin anything, just tell the truth. MLCers think us LBS standers are pushovers I think. H doesn't have a clue how far I've come in the last 6 months.
Hello friends,

Tomorrow is a new month. Summer is around the corner. Time flies, especially as we get older, it just feels as if it moves by faster and faster. The last several years I have felt stuck in what feels like a holding pattern -- as if once I get through this hard time, I can breathe and start living again. I think that's not true tho. Life was then just as much as it is now. Things can get worse just as easily as they can get better. We've got to keep living today and not just while looking ahead.

Grace, I was very firm with my H during our separation that he was not to bring our kids anywhere near OW. Could I actually control that? No. Did I try? Abso-fing-lutely. That entire situation was so toxic and would have hurt the kids more to be involved in it. Fortunately he never did subject them to it. Not only would it have hurt/confused them, but it would be one more pile of chit we would need to shovel through now. And speaking of chit, I saw XOW recently. I was actually with H. She just walked on by with her OM2. I can just see the regret all over Hs face. This lady is no prize! I don't feel much of anything or strong triggers -- but they all look dumb to me -- just foolish really -- my H, her, and the loser OM2 that is still with her. I'm sure its a matter of time before she finds a replacement for this guy.

A good friend is going through a break-up right now. I feel for him. He is so focused on her and what could have been. It just seems so simple to me now. He thinks she's is making a mistake. He sees her issues and why she is running. But understanding HER doesn't bring her back, it just keeps him attached and prevents him from moving on. The same goes for accepting his own blame in it.

You can't bring people back no matter how hard you try. When someone doesn't want you, just let them go. That's all you can do. Over time these things sort out and even they will see it differently.

Blu
Blu, you've spoken some true words about not waiting for "our time". None of us should play that waiting game, but we all do it at different points.

I wasn't sure what you meant by your very last sentence, "Over time these things sort out and even they will see it differently." Can you explain a bit more what you're thinking?
I hate to read that you feel stuck. I hate it even more that I don't know what to do to help you get out of it. I feel like maybe I'm just too inexperienced sometimes for the people who have kids. But I think it comes back to attitude and mindset. The person who says she can and the person who says can't are both right. When you look for the good, you commit to making things great, and you put your heart into...how can you not feel better?

Do you think you are "all in" with your H? Or are you holding back? Why are you feeling stuck?
Yail, I meant two things by that. In time, all of our sitches eventually sort out. Things don't remain up in the air indefinitely. Either they come back and we work on the M or we don't and both people move on (or continue to remain attached and wait). But over time change will happen. Whichever direction things move in, both people will see the sitch differently. For example, the LBS is initially wounded and wants the WS back. The WS is running away and doesn't want the LBS (even telling themselves lies or rewriting history if they need to justify their actions). However, several months or even years later, both perspectives change, whether there is a recon or not. The way I view my H and my M now, is completely different than when he first left. The same is true for him. Think about it: 5 years ago he was running away from our M, with OW, and said he wanted D. Now, he is back at home, and the more the years pass, the more he sees what a mistake that was. Even if our M doesn't survive, there is no part of him now that thinks having an A and leaving your family is a good idea. Even if we didn't R, he recognizes that the way he thought about me and our M on BD is extreme/emotionally driven. I think in time, as emotions settle, logic or more practical thinking comes around. Again, that doesn't mean the S will always go back to the LBS, but the perspective will shift.


Ovr, thank you. I think sometimes you don't give yourself enough credit. You have good insight into other peoples' sitches. You are right in that this has everything to do with my attitude and mindset. I know that. H knows that. It just doesn't seem to be changing. For whatever reason, my brain cannot convince my heart to feel what it needs to in order to have a close and loving relationship. So no, I'm not all in. Yes, I do hold back a lot. And I think I feel stuck, because I feel as if I should be doing things differently. My focus is much more on my kids, their activities and success, how to prepare them for college (middle in HS and one a young adult going back to school). I work, I take care of my home and family, I drive them to/from their sports, and I am pretty good about self care on my time off. What I don't do is nurture my M. Should I? Sure, of course., we can all agree on that. Do I feel a strong motivation or desire to? No So how can I do that in an authentic way? I am asking.

Reading here doesn't give me a new appreciation for my H, as perhaps it does some of you. You all might see a man that did the right thing. You also my hope your S does the same; comes back and makes ammends. That is how I felt after he left me. Now tho, many years later, I see it differently. I see a good person, who made a terrible mistake, and a person that I believe I can forgive, but not a person I want to feel close to and trust with my heart.

Blu
I'm a complete rookie her Blue but... I would question whether you have actually forgiven him. You may trust him in certain ways and are confident that he wouldn't do it again <-- but if this is true and you still can't give him your heart.. then I don't think you've forgiven him. Forgiveness has a cost, that cost is paid by the forgiver and it is not easy, but when it is truly done, that is when you again allow yourself to be vulnerable with him.
This sounds hard, Blu. I am reading your situation very closely because my H has been saying pretty consistently for months that he wants to work on the R and get back together. I don't trust him, I don't seem to be able to get myself to a place where I'd be able to trust or forgive him, and I think he's probably in the same place - wanting to repair things, but not able to make the leap. Sometimes I wonder if it would be better for both of us to let go, pull the plug and start afresh. Do you regret your decision to R?
Jack Three Beans once wrote:


"when I was going through this, my mantra was

Today is not the day that I quit

Maybe I will quit tomorrow, yet I will wait to see what tomorrow brings

Then repeat that tomorrow"


You know Blu that I did what your H did...so I don´t feel much qualified to give you advice.
Let me just say that you need to forgive H not for him but for yourself. Then you´ll find trust. I know it´s hard. But it´s a need.

Time and patience Blu.
Blu

It's good to hear from you. Just wanted to come by and say that I feel ya on the trust and giving your heart to H now. I don't know how one restores that and forgiveness may be part of that equation, but I suspect there's more than that. I have no idea what that might be. I know this has not been your path, but I wonder if you need to take the next exit off the highway. How's the sex life? If this heaviness has been on your heart, even if it might just be a tremble at this point, have you been able to develop any meaningful intimacy?
Blu - I hope you know everyone is rooting for your happiness in whatever form that takes. Both paths will take work on your part to reach your "next level". Take a deep breath, and when you find your body and heart feel especially strong take a step forward.

Then rest. Then gather your strength again. This sounds like a slow but steady kind of mountain. You will 100% make it to the top.
Blu,

I understand the feeling of being stuck. There have been plenty of days, where I just can't anymore. Just can't find the energy to forgive or forget what my W did. I can't find the energy to be happy or content with our M. Can't find reasons to stay other than us having kids together. I know if we didn't, I would be gone. My wife is a good woman. She has a great heart, she is very considerate and beautiful. But, and this but is where I get hung up at. She made a decision, that's hard for a person like me to move pass. Loyalty is high on a characteristics I want in my spouse.

We sat down the other night and I told her I'm having a hard time wanting to stay. And I have a big decision to make. We both agreed we will be ok no matter my decision. It's a lot of work forgiving and healing. For about a month I was coming home angry every night. I just couldn't shake the feeling.

Being vulnerable is not only scary with a person that has took it for granted but it's hard as f#$! to process as well.

After that conversation things became a lot smoother for us. My anger went down a lot.

I met a man at church who W cheated on him. Him and his W stayed together, I asked him how long it took him to get over his W infidelity and forgive her. He said 5 years. I was like, oh hell nah, I can't wait that long. But that was my initial reaction.

My W made some great points as well. She was in a very bad and low place and the way I treated her was horrible before BD. She's trying to forgive me as well.

Onward and forward
P_Jam, thank you for weighing in. Rookie or not, I appreciate everyone's input. IMO, we can all learn something from anyone if we keep an open mind. I would agree that opening our hearts again and trusting someone does come with a "cost" and that might very well be vulnerability. My H has said the same thing about me: that I keep a wall up and do not allow myself to be vulnerable. I don't feel as if I do that consciously, but am not going to disagree with it. I have done some of my own research on forgiveness, however what I've learned is that it is such a personal and individual thing. We all experience it and treat it differently. I think for me, forgiveness it is not an end goal to be achieved, but more of process that I am constantly moving through. The process has been bumpy, and not linear, and at times I take 2 steps forward and then 3 steps back. I do recognize that as the years go by, it feels as if it is getting easier.

Hi Alison. I would like to read your sitch. Sometimes I randomly follow people here, and then miss different posters, but for no reason other than because I randomly open up the site and happen to read from the first page of posts. I will find your threads. ... One thing I've noticed is that most threads that are active are newbies that first come here and are in the new/desperate phase of their sitch. Some stick around and some move on. We don't tend to talk as much about what happens after the initial shock, when people slightly come back together, yet there is little momentum to move strongly in one direction. That can be very hard and confusing and there are no set rules for that. ... Do I regret my decision to R? In one word, no. If you read my threads tho, you can see how messy and confusing it has all been, so I will never say it was the "best" decision, but it is one I will stand by. Until I don't anymore or until I am clear that it will work out as I want it to. I am 4 years in and this is a long marathon ...

Neffer, thanks. You know, I have heard/read this a lot - that forgiveness is not so much something you give to the other person, but that it is something you give yourself. I get that. When we hold onto a grudge, we in essence poison our own soul by continuing to allow the negative thoughts and emotions. We free ourselves of that when we accept and forgive. As I said above, I don't see forgiveness as an end goal. It is certainly not a light switch that I can turn on. For me it has been a process. Some of that has been based on his consistent commitment to me, our M and our family. However more of it has been based on my own thoughts, actions and choices. .... And let's be real, there are varying degrees of assaults that a person can do. Having a brief EA or a one night stand, and then coming to your W and asking for forgiveness is one level. Having an extended affair -- a long full on R -- with OW and then leaving your W, children and home is quite another level. IMO, it is one of the worst things a man can do. While some may argue that anyone is capable of that, I will argue that most do not actually go through with it. So really Neffer, my forgiveness is less motivated by him deserving my forgiveness, or by me freeing myself of a harmful grudge, but more so it is motivated by the fact that my children deserve it. When I chose to have kids, I chose to provide as much for them as I possibly can, and that includes a loving family. H is on board, and so I will give it by best effort too, even if it takes many years. Now, if he still had any feelings/thoughts about OW (as you have posted that you do at times), I can tell you I would be long gone. He has to be in this 100% now for me to even consider him, and now I have to keep working to meet him there ....

To Be Continued ...

Blu
Maika, I read your post a couple of times and am a bit confused. What do you mean by "exiting the highway?" Are you suggesting it could be time for me to give up and move on from him entirely? If so, let me know if you are still available in a few months from now. ;-) JK. LOL. .... Developing meaningful intimacy has been hard lately. And the history in the last 4 years has been that it is there -- somewhere it exists and resurfaces -- but it is not usually long lasting. Also, I fully acknowledge that it is my doing and changing that leads to it. He is present and he is patient. When I shift my mindset and put the energy forward, the intimacy results. So yeah, the ball is entirely in my court. There is good and bad to that. I also recognize that overall this does get easier with time. I don't have the same triggers or emotional responses that used to interfere with my thinking/living/just trying to move forward, that I did a couple years ago.

Yail, thank you for the vote of confidence. I appreciate it, really!

joejoe, I can relate to everything you post. Honestly, I could have written that with very minor edits. It is sort of strange to be stuck in this power dynamic. It sounds like your W and my H are to a degree waiting for us to fully come around and commit -- to forgive, to be vulnerable, and to start to let go of the past. It is a relief to know that they will not go anywhere, that they are here now, and they are taking responsibility and are committed to change. It also feels like a bit of pressure , because we know we need to figure this out and make it happen. Sometimes that can be so hard when your heart is just not in it. My kids are my biggest motivator to stay and I don't see that as a bad thing. Whoever says "you can't just stay for the kids," is wrong IMO. My kids are the best reason for making this work. They deserve a family, they deserve to stay in our nice home and continue to go to the top schools. They deserve everything -- all the sports, rides, vacations, coordinating all their activities, time together, stability, etc etc -- and it is so much easier to provide that while working together. What I need to do a better job of, is showing them what a loving couple looks like. .... 5 years? Wow. Well, I am a year away (shrugs), so maybe I just need more time ...

Blu
Thanks for the reply, Blu. I ask about regret because I think that's what is holding me back from trusting and having faith - faith that H means what he says, and faith that I will be okay even if I try to R with him and it doesn't work out. I don't want to regret my decision. Part of what keeps me in limbo is myself. I could pull the plug or leap into R with him and I do neither, even though I hate limbo, because of that fear. It is interesting that even though things are difficult and still a work in progress, you don't regret your decision. It helps me to hope.
Alison, I think I would have regretted not giving this a try. If I had walked away from him, then I would not have ever known what it could be. If what it's turning out to be doesn't ever feel right, well then I can make a different choice when the time comes. Right now tho, my main motivation is for my children. And fortunately he has done everything that he can do to show that he is remorseful, trustworthy and committed to making this work. It's still not easy tho and perhaps the hardest thing I have done. I have to constantly put my head over my heart. It doesn't feel natural at times.

When I am having a lot of doubts, I go back to this -- if it is true what people say, that everything happens for a reason, then I must be able to find meaning in this too. What can I learn from this? How can I change and become a better person? I think in a lot of ways I have. I think I like myself now more than I did before BD. When someone pulls the rug out from under your life, and you come crashing down, you have to eventually pick yourself up. No one can do that for you. I think before BD, I had these ideas about how life should be and about how relationships should be. Perhaps I was narrow-minded because I hadn't known what real soul-crushing heartbreak was. But it didn't kill me. I survived it. And I believe I am stronger for it. I think that might be the meaning in all this. And for me, finding meaning in this, makes it much easier to accept. It was my silver lining so to speak.

All that being said, I don't think we should take our S back simply because they are willing and it's an available option. You mention that you are in limbo, and that it is you that is keeping yourself there. Sometimes it can be hard to see the truth when we have been hurt. Do you not trust him or do you not trust yourself? The answer is somewhere but may not be visible yet. I am going to look at your sitch ...

Blu
Finding meaning in all this is the only way to make sense of it, I think. I was exactly the same before BD, I was always like 'why make life so difficult, love should be easy', and er, it so isn't. Becoming a better, kinder, more forgiving, patient person might not feel worth it but we can't waste this much pain. Best to put it to use for the sake of yourself and everyone you love.
Originally Posted by BluWave
I think before BD, I had these ideas about how life should be and about how relationships should be. Perhaps I was narrow-minded because I hadn't known what real soul-crushing heartbreak was. But it didn't kill me. I survived it. And I believe I am stronger for it. I think that might be the meaning in all this. And for me, finding meaning in this, makes it much easier to accept. It was my silver lining so to speak.


I like to imagine scar tissue forming after the heartbreak. It takes a long-time for scartissue to form. And I hear that it's tougher tissue than skin. So I try to imagine that while hearts can break, it is the rebuilding of the heart that allows us to love deeper and stronger.
Yes Blu. Forgiveness is for yourself. I´ve read something Gerda posted on Gordie´s sitch:

Originally Posted by Gerda
i don't think it's possible to forgive W and be done with the forgiveness thing.

I think you will have to start over everyday.


Then I recall J3B...

Yes Blu, as you say, forgiveness is a close daily companion.

(((Blu)))
Originally Posted by BluWave


You mention that you are in limbo, and that it is you that is keeping yourself there. Sometimes it can be hard to see the truth when we have been hurt. Do you not trust him or do you not trust yourself? The answer is somewhere but may not be visible yet. I am going to look at your sitch ...




Thank you for asking this, Blu. It chimes with something that came up in my IC yesterday and which has left me feeling really sad. A good sad, I think, because it is about accepting reality. I don't think I trust myself. Not my judgement of this situation, not my ability to forgive and love and manage my own hurt feelings, not my capacity to go ahead and pull the plug and move on if that's what is best for me and my children, and not my capacity to R with a man who will never be perfect. You've helped me see where I am, and that's progress - even if I don't much like where I am right now.
Yes, that's exactly what I meant by 'exiting the highway' smile I think I am going through periods of feeling that I am available and then retreating from it... kinda like you but in a different way wink

I have always said that the heart takes longer to catch up to where you mind is. I see that in your mind you're there, but your heart is still lagging behind. I believe that's normal and I don't cosign to the idea that it should take x number of years to get to a place of equilibrium. I think that time is a vehicle and our hearts drive it with the speed that is comfortable to each of us. I think that the intellectual processing and taking wider perspectives assist in the process, but emotionally we need the process to unfold with a degree of purpose and intentionality.

I think you might benefit from some IC at this point. On an alternative route, have you ever considered going on a silent meditation retreat for a few days? I think that could be immensely helpful. The only insight I have is that whenever I have taken a significant amount of time to just be with my thoughts and emotions without any other sensory input and distractions, it has provided a great deal of clarity.
Blu, hi and thank you for all your insight.
I have read all you have posted on your journey from beginning to end.
I have posted on here, but gone quiet, a little like you I read and read threads for hours. I reached out because I know I am doing a did service to myself. I like you somehow know that my husband will come back well that's what my but says. I like you have beggef, pleaded, lashed out in anger God how can one person rip your soul apart.
But what I am feeling now is that I have gone so far that I have detached completely well no that's not true, but I am becoming a complete b##ch the otherway. I cannot wait for wh to leave after he drops the kids off. In fact I get so nervous around him I shake. It feels like I am waiting for another bd from wh.
I am in ic and working on my self esteem and confidence, but don't want to do it around my wh.

Thank you for everything you have posted, journey has been long, but you have a strength in you. That I am in awe of
Hello everyone,

Perhaps I'll take a break from swinging 2*4s on your threads and update my own.

I think I have made some small progress recently. I am becoming more accepting of how much of my happiness in my relationship is my own doing, mainly how I think about things and where I focus my thoughts. I realize that the way I think about and talk about my H and my M, very much molds the direction and thus outcome. I have always known this to be true, but I have not felt that I can control thought-stopping negative thinking. It makes a big difference in my Rs and how I come across to those around me. I think my own thinking is what has the largest impact in my M.

For example, if I continue to think about the past, things he has done/said that I don't like, or making mental lists of why this piecing won't work, I feel negatively about him. The negativity can easily affect my feelings about him and thus how I treat him. When I focus on his strong suits and the positives, I feel more accepting of him and optimistic about the future. It's almost as if I have complete control and he is still waiting a bit, but not stopping and waiting, he seems okay when I disengage.

If I were to list out all the reasons this M could never work and why he wasn't the right partner for me, I could be rather convincing. Conversely, I could also explain what a good man he is, a devoted H and father, and how hard he has worked to look inward and make positive changes. So what I am explaining is that neither option is wrong or right, the answer lies in the direction that I choose. This may not be true for all of us, but for those of us that have two willing partners, the ways of thinking can either make or break the outcome of the R.

On a more practical level, there have been a couple things (more like complaints) that I have had about H for many years. I am vocal about my complaints and he knows what they are. Well, the main one he is now addressing. I have said it and said it. The other day, I learned that he is taking some steps towards positive changes. He isn't just making empty promises or talking about it anymore, I can now see he is doing the work part. I like that.

So I have decided that even if the "changes" don't work out in his favor or stick, his willingness to listen to me and to address it counts for something. It counts for a lot. More so, he continues to show me someone that understands compromise and commitment. I think I am fortunate to have a partner like that. I recognize -- IRL and reading here -- that many people do not have a partner like that. So for now, I am not over analyzing his past mistakes, but I am accepting what is in front of me today. That is my goal. As much as my sitch hurt me, and us, I try and find the silver linings like this because it makes it easier to accept.

It's going to be a busy summer of travel and kid's sports/camps and another big vacay out of the country. I am going to try and make the best of it for now. Happy summer!

Blu
Blu,

Thanks for the update! I just wanted to let you know how great it is to have your unique perspective on here. It sure seems like most people who do R, don't then hang around these boards. And it's understandable, as this place can be a reminder of some very dark times. But it is great to hear about the reality, the continued struggle, that is life after R. So, thanks!
Yes, thank you Blu!!
Blu that has to be by far the best balanced healthy approach and mindsets about how thoughts whether positive or negative, leads to attitudes and feelings, which lead to healthy action, dynamics, and responses, and totally employs the power of forgiveness. Plus although it might not control it, it shapes our realities of how people perceive us. Its simple too. Although we tend to make things complex. I am going to print that post out, and use it as a daily reminder if what and how I want to change.
Always love the updates from you Blu! Great to see another solid update and how things are going with you. Glad to hear H is making serious effort in areas that you wanted to see changes in. Also sounds like a fantastic summer coming up. Make the best of the famjam time and take it in smile
Blu, you know where I come from. It´s hard for the LBS but it´s hard for everbody indeed. You both are respecting each other. What counts there is the present time you are both living and the future you are jointly facing.

(((Blu)))
Ahhhh, thank you, guys. I appreciate all of the support. I am going to keep updating as best I can, even if there is not much new or interesting info to add.

I am finding that posting here lately is less of a trigger for me and more of a positive challenge. As someone else told me, when we give others advice it also forces us to think if we are taking our own advice. Im really trying to do that.

Blu
I just realized that this is my 1000th post. And what better post than to share this amazing update from MTN, who is coming back after 15 years since her BD. What a gem of a find for me this morning. Please read her inspirational story. We can all learn from her!

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2857282&#Post2857282

Blu
Wow, thanks for linking that gem Blu!


I was really drawn to this:
Quote

the ways of thinking can either make or break the outcome of the R.


Between W and I, I would like to believe we are on the upward swing towards recon. Trust and forgiveness seem to be two areas I need to put more thought into because with trust, I don't trust she has told me all of the truth about the past, but I do trust she wont cheat on me going forward. With forgiveness, I think my heart is there but my mind isn't, if that makes sense. Do I need to know specific acts to forgive each thing individually or do I forgive her behavior from the past to move on... so this is fresh with me.

I hope to gain the wisdom that you have. Thoughts usually turn into words and actions fueled by feelings. I hope to gain better insight into the ways of thinking where thoughts don't always need to reveal themselves or manifest into something damaging. With the ways of thinking I think about trying to understand the other person first before passing judgement or being quick to give our piece of mind.

I hope your posting here become less of a trigger as time goes on as we can always benefit from your perspective and wisdom.
Adam, sorry I didn't reply sooner! Thank you for the vote of confidence! I would like to read your sitch. It is always easier to see things more clearly as an outsider than it is in our own sitches. For me this has been a very slllooooowwww process and I have had to make all the mistakes several times before getting my head screwed on straight. There is a lot to be learned when we keep picking ourselves up, dusting off the knees and trying again. I have done that 100 times.

I just came back from a trip and am embarking on another one soon. I love exploring new places! I will continue to check the boards even if my replies are sparse. It has been a busy summer and I have lost some sleep, although not over my M, but over different things. My biggest stressor recently has been over my middle D and her travel sport, finding a more competitive team, thinking about if she will play in college and how to prepare for that, etc. And it's becoming more timely and costly as she moves up in it! I love watching her play more than anything, but it also takes over my life a bit, and I have trouble striking a balance.

I wanted to update today to say that I am so proud of my H! I think I mentioned before but there was something in particular that was driving me nuts about him and causing some issues -- partly always there, but over the years became more of an issue as time went on. The reason is was so hard is because part of his MNG syndrome is what contributed to his lack of progress and ambitions. Well, I am excited to say, he handled it and he handled it like a boss! In fact he has done a 180 in this area and I am really looking forward to seeing where this change takes him and takes us!

Blu
Hey Blu!

I've been meaning to post on your thread. I really liked your 6/17 update. I run some of those words through my head a lot. Attitude, thoughts, actions, emotions....I repeat that to myself. I know how to be happy.

Awesome for your daughter! My W got a scholarship to a big school for softball. She played year round for over 10 years and traveled a lot. It is a huge commitment and stressful for everyone involved! My W and her parents have so many fun stories from their trips, or pulling pranks, or messing around in between games - you can make these events awesome or you can focus on the parts that aren't fun. It sounds like you are wanting it to be great, so you are making it great. Good for you! With your attitude and positive mindset I can only imagine the places your girls will go!
One step after the other Blu. There you both go. Great!

Time, patience, one road.

(((Blu)))
Hey Blu,

I started reading your thread as far back as it goes, and so much of the NGS stuff you mention about your H reminds me of mine. I spent so long begging him to tell me what he wanted and how he felt in our M. I never got much from him, and then when he BD’d me it was largely because he wanted to be free to be himself, I was controlling and never let him have a say, etc.
Anyway, I can across a few mentions in your thread whee you say that you didn’t really start truly BD’ing until the end. I’ve been trying to BD since I discovered it, but I’ve had a lot of slip ups and poor reactions when I get impatient and triggered. Now I’m trying to really and truly stick to it, so I can get strong and detach myself emotionally.
I know it’s kind of a silly question, but I wanted to ask what did it really look like when you truly started to DB? What were you doh g that you hadn’t done before? Where on the spectrum of cordial/distant did you tend to fall in your interactions with your H?
I know everyone and every sitch is different, but I also feel like I could use some specific guidelines to model by DB after, so that I can be consistent and be sure that I’m in fact walking the walk. It’s worth a try!
(((Hope))) Hugs. I’m out of the country on vacay and don’t have my laptop, but have been loosely checking here from my phone. So excuse the typos, as it’s hard to proof read.

Yes, my H has the MNG syndrome and I still see it rear it’s ugly head. Just today, we were out with the family waiting for a huge pride parade — it was a hot day, a long wait and we were mostly standing in front — and he let a couple with a child move in front of us. The kid was the same age as our youngest. WTF. It doesn’t even occur to him that while he is being so polite to strangers, he is letting them in front of his own family. It just boggles my mind at times. And then I’m triggered. My kid was stretching to see around them and I had to talk some c-ap at him, which def suxked some fun out of the event. So while he has made changes, he will never fully change.

I digress. Sorry. The NG stuff was particularly hard to deal with during the separation. I had to see him often because the kids were younger and the days I had to work he would need to come over and get them ready for school. He would always be on time, make me coffee, clean up, so helpful and usually quite cordial. Yet he was still running off to OW! He still had an A and broke up his M and family! I was so hurt and angry and here he was being so nice to my face. It was truly a mind F!

So the mistake I made was roping myself into everything he did and didn’t do rather than letting him be. I was wearing my heart on my sleeve and acting on emotions. I would read here and try and follow the rules but it was hard and I felt fake — like I was being too nice and letting him “get away with it.” Cycle that with R talks, getting upset and lashing out, and trying to force him to admit he knew it was a mistake. I didn’t get very far with either of these so I would go back to ignoring and stonewalling him, which felt the easiest. It also got the most reaction.

It wasn’t until around 8 months that I gave up. I just stopped all of it and started acting as if. I didn’t give up hope, but I let go of the rope. It’s hard to explain the shift, but I started to just accept that we were not together and lived my life accordingly. I didn’t show him that I was hurt, desperate or angry. I got tired of fighting. So for me in my sitch this was a huge 180.

I don’t recall that you have been struggling with that as much. I think you have done a pretty good job of following the rules. So what does your 180 look like? Could it be that you haven’t accepted he is gone? I know how hard that is and I struggled with it too. The weird thing is, the sooner you accept it, the more likely he is to change his mind. There is also a strong chance he never will :-(

I also recall you saying you might have pushed him to file. That gave me pause. I’m not sure you can push him to do something he wouldn’t have done anyways. I have read that other places on the site but I don’t entirely agree. They may move things along more quickly, but I don’t think it changes the outcome. In fact, in my case it had the opposite effect. After several weeks or months of following the rules, I wrote my H an email and said that I didn’t want to live in limbo, it wasn’t fair to confuse the kids, and that if he was planning on filing for D, then let’s get going so I can move on with my life. That started his quick turnaround. He may or may not have done that without my email tho — he was on his own downward spiral.

Hang in there Hope. I know how incredibly difficult and emotional this is. It’s terrifying. Try not to be so hard on yourself. You can only do so much, and right now, being a good mom and self care matters sooooo much more than what he will do. I’ll read your updates soon and think on this further. Take good care. And please, please trust me on this — if your H doesn’t want you and a beautiful life with you, you really don’t want him anyways. You dont! You want a man that wants you. Yes, it’s that simple. This is HIS loss!!! My H today would tell you the exact same thing.

Hugs!
Blu
Thank you for your reply, Blu!!
It’s so interesting to read your takes, and where you are now

.
Originally Posted by BluWave
Yes, my H has the MNG syndrome and I still see it rear it’s ugly head. Just today, we were out with the family waiting for a huge pride parade — it was a hot day, a long wait and we were mostly standing in front — and he let a couple with a child move in front of us. The kid was the same age as our youngest. WTF. It doesn’t even occur to him that while he is being so polite to strangers, he is letting them in front of his own family. It just boggles my mind at times. And then I’m triggered. My kid was stretching to see around them and I had to talk some c-ap at him, which def suxked some fun out of the event. So while he has made changes, he will never fully change.


THIS. This is my H to a T. One of the frequent fights we had was about him going out of his way to be so nice to others that we would screw me/our family over. It made me SO MAD. It always felt like a betrayal to me, like I couldn’t count on him. It’s so interesting to hear that your H still does it (though not shocking, I suppose) and that it still triggered you. Also not shocking, ha! It also made me wonder, IF my H was to decide to come back, and that scenario played out, what would it look like? The only thing I can imagine is me getting triggered and getting mad, and him getting super defensive, and then me being panicked he would leave again...yikes. I know, I know.

Originally Posted by BluWave
The NG stuff was particularly hard to deal with during the separation. I had to see him often because the kids were younger and the days I had to work he would need to come over and get them ready for school. He would always be on time, make me coffee, clean up, so helpful and usually quite cordial. Yet he was still running off to OW! He still had an A and broke up his M and family! I was so hurt and angry and here he was being so nice to my face. It was truly a mind F!

So the mistake I made was roping myself into everything he did and didn’t do rather than letting him be. I was wearing my heart on my sleeve and acting on emotions. I would read here and try and follow the rules but it was hard and I felt fake — like I was being too nice and letting him “get away with it.” Cycle that with R talks, getting upset and lashing out, and trying to force him to admit he knew it was a mistake. I didn’t get very far with either of these so I would go back to ignoring and stonewalling him, which felt the easiest.



ALSO. THIS. This could be my sitch you are describing. For a long time my H was making breakfast and bringing me coffee and doing things around the house every Saturday. At the time I thought it meant something about the way he felt about me/the sitch. Looking back at all that knowing now that he was dating someone else is just...well, you know. Interestingly I hadn’t connected all that with MNG stuff before you said that. WOW. That makes it clear just how meaningless it all was. A mind F doesn’t even begin to describe it. And I too have cycled through all those feelings and reactions and lashing out and trying to be kind and settling on cold because it’s easiest.
And that very well may be where the similarities in our situations end. Sigh. I applaud you though. It’s so hard to understand the struggle of piecing from where we stand as LBS. We look at you all and think “I’d do anything to be there! How hard can it be?!” But I’m starting to get it.

I appreciate your thoughts on whether I may have pushed my H to file. I’ve been struggling with obsessive thoughts about it for the last few days. When I did it, I meant it, like you said; if that’s what he was going to do regardless, then he needed to just do it because I was done with limbo. So perhaps that is it, plain and simple. He always intended it, and strung me along for a year for who knows what reason. For some reason, it’s easier to swallow if I can believe that I didn’t push something that wasn’t inevitable.

Thank you, as always, for your reply, kind words and no nonsense advice. It really, really does help me. Enjoy your vacation!
Blu,

I just want to say that I love your posts. You have the most amazing replies to other people and are always compassionately truthful. You lift other people up and help give them back their dignity and self esteem.

I also really appreciate your honesty on your own situation. I think many people just want their spouse to come back and don't think about how much work would still be left to do. You've made me realize that both D and reconciliation are painful paths to walk down.

You've provided so much insight on WHs. My H is a MNG too, and they sound so similar. I'm just amazed though how willing they are to throw away their spotless reputation. I thought my H cared about his reputation more than anything. Did your H realize during his affair what other people thought of it, or was he in denial that anyone could blame him, or was he just too addicted to the affair to care? Every single mutual friend is disgusted with H, and I can't understand how he can just drop his entire friend circle. I thought he cared about those people.
Hope, I have some time to get caught up and will read your updates soon. I have been thinking about you.

Sunset, Thank you for your kind words. I think when I was on my vacay, I started to read your sitch and couldn't keep reading. You have a toddler and newborn, correct? After several posts, my heart literally ached for you, and I had to put the screen down because it was too much! Unbelievable what someone can do to a young family and a parent caring for their own babies. As much as I have tried to understand the actions of these spouses over the years, it still blows my mind, and the younger the children are in the sitch, the more egregious the assault seems IMO.

Re your question as to how my H felt about his reputation -- yes he cared what people thought about him and it haunted him. We had several friends and family that were disgusted by what he was doing. I mean, he not only left his family for OW at a vulnerable time, but she and her H were our mutual friends at the time. It was a mess all around. And my H prided himself on being the nice guy -- he was that man that would help out anyone -- family, friends, neighbors -- and he is mr dad and with our kids when not at work. He was proud of his identity and so it killed him that he had become this adulterous selfish jerk! I could see the struggle daily in his face.

Here is the strange part of that -- him having this identity crisis, did not lead to him turning around and making positive changes. Other people, including his parents, even tried to intervene. It actually made him feel worse about himself and turn to the one person that was there for him and boosting his ego, which was OW. Then he felt even more like a dirtbag and round and round he went. He would even try and tell me how stuck he felt, and how he knew it was wrong, but he was so low in his life he had sort of given up hope on things ever being better. Then there were other times he was moody, defensive and even cruel and wanting to blame me -- I think he had to rewrite history to justify his actions at times. He yo-yo'd for sure. It was all very strange indeed! If you asked him today to explain these things, he would struggle to. He might even describe that time as foggy and there are even a few things he doesn't recall saying.

The MNG concept gets used a lot on these boards. It seems as if we all have a MNG WH and most of the male posters claim to be one. It leads me to wonder if being a MNG includes characteristics that we all have, but to varying degrees. Perhaps there are several qualities and each person measures a different amount on them, and so the worse a person ranks, the more toxic the resulting coping mech has been developed. I would argue my H ranked high in all categories. I also think his NG personality is what makes him quite likable. The issue arises when an unhealthy behavior results from the personality. I think we often confuse the personality quality (which is good) with the poor adaptive behaviors (which are bad).

I will read your sitch tomorrow as well.

Best,
Blu

Hi everyone,

Things are going fairly well. I read someone post that it took a friend 5 years to recover a M after a bad split/affair, which I think makes sense for my sitch. We are at the 4.5 year mark. There seems to be a natural connectedness and ease that is happening. I think a part of the progress has also been due to not actively working on things and just letting it be at times. When conflict arises, we just say it outright and then let it go more easily. Also, we are both getting older, and can feel that progression in the relationship. I think as we solidly enter "middle age" we naturally stop sweating the small stuff as much. I can't be bothered to worry about what people think of me, or the past, because there is just too much going on right now. I feel that shift happening. I am letting it happen and not resisting it.

I don't read much about relationships or self help books anymore, but I used to when things were harder. I recall reading about the evolution of marital relationships and there are several stages that happen over time. A lot of people (maybe half of Ms) split and then D during the difficult stages. If you can make it through those harder stages of doubt and separation, and then work through them, you can enter those final stages. The final stages are supposed to be the deepest and most meaningful relationships one can achieve in a romantic R. Well, if all that hype is true, then I think I have something to look forward to moving into the future. I feel proud of that.

Oh, ha. And I just thought of a story as I was typing this and it's kinda corny yet ironic! So six years ago we landscaped the front of our home. It was a pretty big project that required removing hedges and a lot of dirt. H is a handyman with gardening/cars/fix-its/house projects, and so he did the labor. He pulled everything out himself and then I selected the new plants, tree and tanbark, and decided where to place it. A dynamic that still exists in our R now and one we both appreciate about one another. Anyhow, at that time, the EA was just getting started with OW and of course I didn't know. She came by the house a few times while he was in front working and I recall her pulling up (our kids had carpools and playdates) and being quite flirty with him and he would ignore her. I found her annoying but also knew her well and this is how she operated in general (flirty and attention seeking from men). We were friends and all simply accepted her bad behavior. He didn't appear to notice her antics. He kept gardening. Here is the funny thing; H wanted to put weed block down under the tan bark and I would tell him not to bother. Our front yard had no protection.

I don't even remember why I told him back then not to use the weed block (maybe he had already laid it all out when he brought it up and I didn't want him uprooting everything?) but I was firm that he shouldn't. So the garden was finished and it bloomed and looked okay for only 1-2 years. Then it was over taken by weeds and because I don't have a green thumb, the plants did not grow proportionally and it didn't look right when matured. Also, as our M almost fell apart, the garden did not get any TLC, and was not a priority. It was a complete mess. So this summer, H started removing the old plants. A couple weeks ago he told me to figure things out so he could do the work and that this time he was laying the weed block down. In the last few years I have made some solid new friendships -- love these ladies for life -- and one of them happens to know a lot about gardening. She picked out the plants for us and I selected the tanbark. So he finished this week and it looks amazing. It is also well protected. I walked up to my house this morning and stopped to admire it. It is still a young garden, but I can imagine that this time around, everything is going to bloom nicely and last. Plus, there is no pesky OW coming around trying to get in the way! Ha!

Blu
Hi Blu,

I’ve been reading through your sitch lately and was curious about the email you wrote your H that started his quick turnaround. You stated that you didn’t want to live in limbo, it wasn’t fair to confuse the kids, and that if he was planning on filing for D, then get going so you could move on with your life.

Was the email indeed that short? Did you expand on anything else like explaining the damage that was being caused by the PA or trying to open his eyes that he was chasing a fantasy?

My WW has been having multiple PAs for 11 months. I too am ready to end my limbo one way or the other. I have drafted an email, but it contains many, many questions about her choices for W to think about. I’m debating whether I’ll ever send it or perhaps a majorly condensed version.

Thank you,
Curtis
Hey Curtis,

Thanks for checking in. First off, I can't say now that I would suggest writing a letter like I did. In hindsight, it was not the reason for his turn around, rather it was one of many elements happening that led to his downward spiral. I think most of the things going on with him may have been unrelated to where I was at. It also goes against the DB principles that we learn here. My letter was long, it was heartfelt and it was honest. I told him that I didn't want to live in limbo anymore, and I didn't. Limbo for me was not having any legal separation or D, it meant we still owned our home together, and while he was staying at his parents and OWs, he was also coming/going from the house and some evenings I would have to leave at dinner time, and also all of our finances were shared. It was awkward and uncomfortable. For example, the days I worked, I had to get up and leave the house by 630 am and so he would come over before that and get the kids ready for school and then we would swap cars. He would make my coffee and sit there like an outsider in our shared home, looking sad and hopeless, as I was leaving for work. It was total cr-ap!

Basically my letter stated that it was time for him to make some decisions and that it was time to change the sitch. We both knew we couldn't afford the home on our own. It wasn't fair to anyone to live in pieces and unsettled, esp the confusion it caused our younger kids. Turns out that my letter also came around the same time his own mother wrote him a letter expressing her disappointment in him, and then she left the country for a month to stew in her words. He also was growing tired of the double life -- pretending to be a good dad and family man to our kids (even tho he was leaving their mom) and then going off to OW -- and it haunted him. He was becoming thin, tired, and even getting sick. At the same time, and maybe more important than anything, he was starting to become increasingly unhappy with OW. She was one of his only friends left, but there was a lot he didn't like about her or trust. Once the momentum of his downward spiral started, there was no turning back for him. My letter was just the threat of a nail in his coffin. It was the realization that he now had to fight his way out of, what felt like, a near impossible situation. I basically removed myself form plan B at the same time he realized I was actually what he wanted.

Not sure that helps. I don't recommend a letter for most people on the boards! Maybe in the case where the WAS is showing a lot of doubt and remorse but hasn't quite made the final leap yet. More importantly, the letter cannot be used to trick them into thinking they will lose you. You have to be ready to follow through in your words and let them go entirely. I was honestly fed up with him and his BS and knew I deserved better. That was in the letter too :-)

Blu
Originally Posted by BluWave
First off, I can't say now that I would suggest writing a letter like I did. In hindsight, it was not the reason for his turn around, rather it was one of many elements happening that led to his downward spiral. I think most of the things going on with him may have been unrelated to where I was at.
Blu, thanks for responding. Interesting, I misinterpreted or more likely missed some later posts. I was under the impression the letter triggered his rapid turnaround. I can see how several items can accumulate at once for the WAS and make them feel that loss. It seems that’s what happened for your H.

Originally Posted by BluWave
My letter was long, it was heartfelt and it was honest. I told him that I didn't want to live in limbo anymore, and I didn't. Limbo for me was not having any legal separation or D, it meant we still owned our home together, and while he was staying at his parents and OWs, he was also coming/going from the house and some evenings I would have to leave at dinner time, and also all of our finances were shared. It was awkward and uncomfortable. For example, the days I worked, I had to get up and leave the house by 630 am and so he would come over before that and get the kids ready for school and then we would swap cars. He would make my coffee and sit there like an outsider in our shared home, looking sad and hopeless, as I was leaving for work. It was total cr-ap!
Wow, sounds like it was awkward and very frustrating to live like that. Your limbo was much different than mine. WW and I have been physically separated for over 6 months. We each have our own house and share the kids 50/50. Kids are starting to hate it at her place, they just want to be back home full time. WW is cycling between multiple OM. I’m sick and tired of the betrayal. It’s wearing on me and the kids. My limbo is more wanting to move on if my W doesn’t want to R. Finding someone that will love and respect me.

Originally Posted by BluWave
Basically my letter stated that it was time for him to make some decisions and that it was time to change the sitch.
I’ve also felt that the right thing to do is give her the choice. Lay out that I’m done living this way and let her make the decision. Yes, it is forcing a decision, but I’m not going to live this way for another year or two.

Originally Posted by BluWave
He also was growing tired of the double life -- pretending to be a good dad and family man to our kids (even tho he was leaving their mom) and then going off to OW -- and it haunted him.
I can’t fathom how my WW cam keep up the double/triple life with all of the lies she’s told me and the OM. It must be extremely burdensome to keep it all straight in her head and change her personality based on who she’s communicating with. I have to think she’ll be haunted for the rest of her life if we D and she knows she never gave us a chance.

Originally Posted by BluWave
Once the momentum of his downward spiral started, there was no turning back for him. My letter was just the threat of a nail in his coffin. It was the realization that he now had to fight his way out of, what felt like, a near impossible situation. I basically removed myself form plan B at the same time he realized I was actually what he wanted.
So, you removed yourself as plan B by stating in the letter that it was time for him to make a decision and change the sitch? No mention of D or separation, just that the sitch had to change? Start moving in one direction or the other?

Originally Posted by BluWave
Not sure that helps. I don't recommend a letter for most people on the boards! Maybe in the case where the WAS is showing a lot of doubt and remorse but hasn't quite made the final leap yet. More importantly, the letter cannot be used to trick them into thinking they will lose you. You have to be ready to follow through in your words and let them go entirely. I was honestly fed up with him and his BS and knew I deserved better. That was in the letter too :-)
The contents of my letter are similar. Mine was not intended to be a threat. I mean it that I’m finished with the crap and BS. I’m not tolerating it any longer. Not sure if you’ve kept up with my sitch, but I take it you wouldn’t recommend I deliver such a letter as my WW has not really shown any chinks in her armor or movement away from the OM except during Retrouvaille weekend.
Hey Blu.

I just finished reading your sitch from start to finish. I am in the process of picking some of the vets and really diving into the full stories so I can hopefully gain a deeper understanding of advice and support that you all so generously give. It has been an honor to read of your journey and I'm so happy for the peace you have found within. Regardless of your M, you have found your worth and your happiness.

One of your most recent anecdotes about your husband and the weed killer pre-BD and post-BD really resonated with me. I'm not sure if you meant it this way, but if you think about M, and think about how both spouses should guard their relationship, your story takes on a whole new meaning.

Before any sign of trouble within your marriage your H was preparing the beautiful garden around your home. He carefully selected all of the best foliage and meticulously planned every placement.

Just when he was about to "weed proof" the surrounding areas, you both decided against it and went about the finishing touches. The garden looked beautiful and you made so many memories in and around it together. BD - WH leaves his amazing Blu and is taken over by the haze of confusion and poor choices. The garden, left unprotected, is eventually infested with weeds and becomes completely unmanageable. The lovely flowers grow disproportionately and the whole area looks a mess.

Fast forward a few years, and your H has returned. You both are now remodeling your garden. Together, you select a beautiful arrangement of plants and fauna. THIS time, you decide to make certain that you are preventing any type of infestation. Your garden and all of it's flowers are protected. You and your husband are effectively guarding your marriage. I truly hope that you are both in the early bloom of building a strong, and lasting romance.

Thank you Blu, for sharing your story and I do hope you continue to give advice and post.
Hello friends,

I hope you are all well and managing your M woes. I know I have been missing from the boards. My life has been consumed with day-to-day stuff, kids, work, home life, and most of all the kids' travel sports (their practices, lessons and weekends out of town). This season kicked my behind with a lot of travel and exploring the option of my middle playing college ball. It is a lifestyle and one that is super exhausting, and also filled with highs, but maybe more lows. I found myself getting pulled in too far and it started to feel overwhelming. Like all things in life, sometimes we have to step back and ask ourselves why we are doing something! So as a parent, I had to think about the lessons I was teaching my kids and make some difficult decisions and changes.

I feel pretty good about those changes. I liken being a sports mom to how I handle other things in life, including my M. I tend to put an obsessive amount of energy into things and often I can get it to work. I am actually embarrassed to admit how far I have taken things for my kids sports. The thing is, it works. Putting a lot of time and energy into something and networking to the top leaders in that field, often works. It does for me anyways. But what I am also realizing is that the end result might actually be the same. I think the same can be said about relationships. We can do all of these things to try, manipulate, and understand someone and we may even get them back. However, the end result years later might just be the same. Sometimes we have to let go of control and let things unfold naturally. I know I do. I am not sure how much sense that makes to people. This season we had to let go of something big in order to make room for something better.

Curtis, how are things? I still need to read your sitch. I don't visit here enough to keep up with people. I apologize.

Kristin, thank you for reading and replying. I appreciate the support. I will try and check out your threads too.

My M is in an interesting place. Things are okay on a day to day basis. We have moments were we tolerate each other and are annoyed by the same old things. Then we have these bursts of closeness. A spark is still in there. It is hard to access that on any continual basis. I suspect that is mostly my fault. Sandi talks a lot about having to have respect for attraction to be genuine. I completely agree. I have to train myself to respect him. By that I mean letting go of grudges and accepting his actions and who he really is. Sometimes I pick at things or hold on to hard feelings. I know it is not always fair. I can feel it. I think we are also not good at communicating. We get annoyed and bicker and then we wait for it to pass. I have to change that. I am trying to think of new ways I can communicate outside of the moment in a more calm and respectful way. Sometimes the most basic things feel the hardest.

Blu
Originally Posted by BluWave
However, the end result years later might just be the same. Sometimes we have to let go of control and let things unfold naturally. I know I do.

Maybe it's natural for you to be putting so much energy and effort? I'm not sure but I wonder which is true, or both, or neither?

I'm glad that spark pops up and brings you close. I imagine that feels good when it comes. I know what it feels like when you flip back and get mean. It's basically showing all your pain that you still have. The basic things are hard to communicate I think. Saying "I'm mad", knowing exactly why, and being able to articulate it is a lot harder than it sounds like for most people. I think we choose the smooth path, and then choose it again, and again in all these small areas, thinking that it's ok just this time. Then all the sudden we've been living our life the easy way and are surprised that there is no reward. It makes me think of balancing of instinct with our intellect, which is the best part of being human.

Enough of my philosophy, good one you for putting so much work in your girl's future. My W was a big softball player too, I think I told you that. They traveled the country, went to lessons sometimes twice a week, had batting and pitching cages at home, drilled at home. It's no easy task you are undertaking but I think you're doing an awesome thing for her. Not everyone has parents like that. I wish my parents could have helped me more like that, but they just didn't know or didn't care enough to do that. You guys are going to have stories to tell about all your adventures for a long time.
Hi Ovr! You are such a valuable member of this community. I appreciate the advice you give to others. I am glad you post to me as well. I can relate to what you say about balancing instinct vs intellect. As hard as this M has been for the last 5-6 years, I do think in a lot of ways it has made me a stronger person. Hopefully a better person too. If I reflect back on my pre-BD self, I was definitely more rigid in the way I thought about things and my Rs. I was also more impatient and controlling in my M. I have let some of that go and am more willing to look at my part in things. I like to think there is a silver lining in overcoming all of this, because if not, I am left wondering, "why didn't I just move on and not let him back in?"

Your W sounds like she was quite the stud. Softball is blowing up and gaining a lot of popularity. My youngest plays competitive soccer and just made a competitive softball team too. Softball has been a much bigger commitment than soccer! So now I will have 2 softball players and 1 that is also balancing soccer. Fortunately, the older made a change to a team with much less travel and a less demanding schedule. .... I also wish that my parents let me play competitive sports, or any sports for that matter, when I was growing up. I see sooo many positive benefits for my kids, it's amazing. They are growing into strong, confident, well rounded individuals. They are also learning that they can work well in a group, enjoy the rewards of benefiting from their hard work, and also handle losing and disappointments. I spend so many hours in the car with my teen and we talk about everything. I feel so lucky to have that R with her. ... I also need to recognize that I cannot project my own feelings of loss in my childhood onto them and push them too hard.

I can talk about my kids sports much more readily than marriage and M saving advice!

Blu
Originally Posted by BluWave
Curtis, how are things? I still need to read your sitch. I don't visit here enough to keep up with people. I apologize.
Hi Blu,

Thanks for asking. I’m going to post a lengthy update on my thread. Things are going okay, not much has changed for the better, same old limbo.

I did decide to send my W an email after reading a book about Plan A and Plan B for affairs. Some of you may know the book and author. I sent it the day after she once again spent the night with one of the OM. The email was my version of Plan A. It basically stated that I apologized for the part I played in leading up to the affairs. That I did not meet all of her most important emotional needs and that I am willing to avoid the mistakes I made in the past and create a new life for us. I asked and encouraged her to end the affairs so we can begin to move forward together.

I then stated that if chooses to join me, that I have needs to protect my own mental and physical health. Those needs are complete NO CONTACT with the affair partners and absolute HONESTY. I stated end your affairs and you’ll find me more than willing to work on any and all of our issues, including my own. I reminded her that love is a choice, forgiveness is possible, and trust can be rebuilt. I stated that it will take work and starts with a commitment from her. I assured her that I am NOT interested in judging or punishing her.

The email wrapped up with if this is not what you want, know that I will be incredibly hurt, but I’ll understand it’s time to move forward. I feel confident that in the end you will do the right thing. It’s your choice.

I included the quote below at the end:
“Fall in love with your best friend. Someone you can talk to about anything and know they’ll hold no judgement. Someone who knows the darkest parts of you and loves you anyway, that knows all your flaws and loves you not in spite of them but because of them. Not someone that you can’t live without, but someone that you don’t want to live without. Someone that you want to experience all of life’s ups and downs with. Someone who will hold your hand through the worst times of your life. When they see you at your worst, when you’re broken, and they don’t run away but help you put the pieces back together, that’s real love.”

W sent a text the next day saying she read my email, thanked me for it and stated she thinks she needs to read it a few more times. Over the next couple weeks I was the best version of myself the few times we interacted. I don’t know if the email helped or hurt my sitch. I felt it was appropriate so she knew my requirements for reconciliation. She’s on her own journey and at this point I don’t think it has much to do with me.

I also drafted a Plan B email which states why I need to avoid seeing or speaking with her, except for emergencies related to the kids, while the affairs continue. I don’t know that I will ever send it. I am becoming more ambivalent about the thought of R with her. The betrayal, lies, lack of remorse, loss of respect and love seem too daunting to overcome.

I hope you have time to read my entire sitch at some point.
Curt,

It's a lot to unpack in your post. I will have to do it later. I will say your are persistent. But IMO you have an attachment disorder. We told about Rville and you went. Now you are writing letters and not giving her space, the one thing she has requested. I really think you are coming off as selfish, and it's making you unattractive. Maybe your WW come back off the letter, but I think it's a low probability. And you wrote the letters never intending to send her the plan B letter. Why?

Joejoe

More later.
Originally Posted by BluWave

My M is in an interesting place. Things are okay on a day to day basis. We have moments were we tolerate each other and are annoyed by the same old things. Then we have these bursts of closeness. A spark is still in there. It is hard to access that on any continual basis. I suspect that is mostly my fault. Sandi talks a lot about having to have respect for attraction to be genuine. I completely agree. I have to train myself to respect him. By that I mean letting go of grudges and accepting his actions and who he really is. Sometimes I pick at things or hold on to hard feelings. I know it is not always fair. I can feel it. I think we are also not good at communicating. We get annoyed and bicker and then we wait for it to pass. I have to change that. I am trying to think of new ways I can communicate outside of the moment in a more calm and respectful way. Sometimes the most basic things feel the hardest.

Blu


Hello Blu. It's been a while since I've posted - I've just updated my thread - but this from what you shared a couple of posts back really stuck out for me. I feel precisely the same way these days. I don't feel as hurt or panicked or frightened or desperate or abused as I did and a lot of the behaviours that were unacceptable to me have changed, and are slowly being replaced with different behaviours. There's sometimes a slide into old patterns repeating, and that does scare me, but generally things day to day are okay. But only okay. I struggle to feel respect. I can accept who he is but I do not really respect that person. We both get annoyed and we do bicker now and again - or we avoid each other for the sake of peace. There's small glimmers of truth-telling which sparks closeness and intimacy, but they are rare and I don't know how to make them happen or even facilitate good conditions for them to occur naturally, if that makes sense. When I put myself in my husband's shoes and imagine what it feels like to live with a wife who is clearly ambivalent about him and struggling to feel love and respect, I can see how difficult it would be for him to feel vulnerable enough to look at his own dark side, show affection and love, and give some radical honesty and collaboration - these are the things I want. I can see I am not very good at doing my bit in making them happen. I know my ambivalence is in part a protective mechanism, which is understandable, and in part it's rational - there are big parts of me that look at my husband and just plain don't like or love what I see. I struggle with that. I struggle with committing to either repair or divorce. If you have any advice or suggestions for me, I'd be willing to take them. I know it's very very early days for me.
Curtis, I am going to comment on your thread.

Joejoe, how are you? Please update your thread!

Alison, good to hear from you. I often check and look for posts by you and Dilly. You guys sort of disappeared and I hope you come back and continue to keep us updated! I miss you both! I'll read your update and reply there.

Blu
Hi Blue,

I think May22 could really benefit from your wisdom and advice if you have time!
Well thank you, Hope, that's a nice complement. I have seen some of her thread, not all. Sometimes I am not so sure how much people appreciate my rusty, nail-studded, 2by4s! I am happy to share them however. I just often don't tell people what they want to hear.

I have been supporting a friend through a similar sitch as my BD several years ago. I just adore her. It pains me to see her going through the same heartache, anxiety, fear, sleepless nights, and self doubt. We just had a long conversation. Her H is showing signs of wanting to return. I don't have a lot of advice for her -- just listening, being supportive, and knowing that it all takes such a long, long time.

Blu
Originally Posted by BluWave
Hi Ovr! You are such a valuable member of this community. I appreciate the advice you give to others. I am glad you post to me as well. I can relate to what you say about balancing instinct vs intellect. As hard as this M has been for the last 5-6 years, I do think in a lot of ways it has made me a stronger person. Hopefully a better person too. I was also more impatient and controlling in my M. I have let some of that go and am more willing to look at my part in things. I like to think there is a silver lining in overcoming all of this, because if not, I am left wondering, "why didn't I just move on and not let him back in?"
All it take to change those behaviors is to turn our world upside down, so at least we have that positive going for us!

Originally Posted by BluWave
Your W sounds like she was quite the stud. Softball is blowing up and gaining a lot of popularity. My youngest plays competitive soccer and just made a competitive softball team too. Softball has been a much bigger commitment than soccer! So now I will have 2 softball players and 1 that is also balancing soccer. Fortunately, the older made a change to a team with much less travel and a less demanding schedule. .... I also wish that my parents let me play competitive sports, or any sports for that matter, when I was growing up. I see sooo many positive benefits for my kids, it's amazing. They are growing into strong, confident, well rounded individuals. They are also learning that they can work well in a group, enjoy the rewards of benefiting from their hard work, and also handle losing and disappointments. I spend so many hours in the car with my teen and we talk about everything. I feel so lucky to have that R with her. ... I also need to recognize that I cannot project my own feelings of loss in my childhood onto them and push them too hard.

I can talk about my kids sports much more readily than marriage and M saving advice!

Blu

I think that your kids are great and they are benefiting so much. Good job Mom. And really god job on not pushing your own agenda onto their athletic careers. So many parents make that mistake. I've been floundering on having children this last year and a half, but hearing about our kids' adventures and talks and road trips makes me want them. Hope all is well.
Originally Posted by BluWave
Sometimes I am not so sure how much people appreciate my rusty, nail-studded, 2by4s! I am happy to share them however. I just often don't tell people what they want to hear.


I, for one, live for them!


Originally Posted by BluWave
I spend so many hours in the car with my teen and we talk about everything. I feel so lucky to have that R with her. ... I also need to recognize that I cannot project my own feelings of loss in my childhood onto them and push them too hard


I think so often about my relationship with my 4 year old daughter, more and more as she gets older and becomes her own person. When I think about the future, more than anything I hope to be someone she can and will talk to about everything. Building and maintaining that level of trust and communication (and not repeating the way I was parented) with her is my main goal and I think about it every single day. Yes, you are lucky, and you should definitely let yourself take some of the credit for creating that bond with your daughter!
I hope so deeply that the improved self awareness my marital situation has brought me will help me cultivate the same with mine.
Blu,

I have followed your thread and your advice to others has always really spoken to me. Honest, clear and incredibly thoughtful. If you do have the time and energy I welcome the 2x4s. I can stay off this board and in my own head if I only hear what I want to hear smile

Of course, no pressure-- part of me feels like spending too much time on these boards is not really helping me, but honestly reading your posts somehow make me feel more hopeful about the future, no matter what happens with H.

May
Dear May, Ive been reading your thread all week. I will reply there soon. I have a lot of thoughts on your sitch and I think it is quite similar to mine was 5-6 years ago, however we didn't have a SSM. I do read here most days and follow several people here. I don't post often, but when people ask me for advice specifically, I will go back and try to read from the beginning before replying. I want to think about their sitch specifically and what I can say that might be helpful to them personally. I am not a fan of some of the frequent posters and don't always agree with the same cookie cutter advice being repeated. While there are similarities in all of our sitches, there are also differences, and I think if we keep doling out the same advice, then the subtle variations can get lost in between. I know in my own sitch, those subtleties were what stood us apart and ultimately I think why we led to reconciliation.

H and I hit our 15 year wedding anni this week. I met him 19 years ago this Jan. We sort of blew it on the planning front, however we have something nice planned this evening. Or so I think. We can do better and next year I think should be more mindful of that. We like to be casual and not fancy, but that can also lead to being neglectful of making things special. So this spring will mark 5 years of him returning. I remember us talking about giving it 1-2 solid years of trying. As if we would call it quits after that amount of time if we didn't have enough progress - ha! That makes me laugh out loud! We were so clueless. I would now say that 5 years is a good amount of time to know if a M can be restored and even then we will always be a work in progress. As I see it, people and Ms are continuously evolving and there is always room for improvement. Also, like I said above, there are differences in our sitches. Some of us have endured major trauma that went on for a significant amount of time and others have had a couple normal bumps in the M road. We are not all the same and should not be advised as such!

Blu
Blu, just wanted to thank you for your note about being wary of cookie cutter DB advice. There are guidelines and there are patterns, but I too get tired of seeing frequent posts with the same advice applied to every single situation. In part it's why I've backed off from posting on the boards.

I suppose one reason I don't like that approach is that it leads to posters/LBS to feel if they don't DB "perfectly" they've "failed" and then it's their fault if the M doesn't reconcile. It puts too much pressure on behaviors that are not a recipe for a returning spouse. It does not actually focus on the improvement of the LBS.

Even "GAL" is over prescribed. It is huge, and I absolutely agree that a huge part of becoming a complete and fulfilled person is to find out what really makes you content and gives you drive. But also it's literally all people tell each other to do. What about sitting back and healing for a bit? What about just stopping the constant never-ending train of negative thoughts that swirl in our heads, and learning to just sit and be content while doing nothing? That's so HARD and I think it's a huge part of the healing and moving forward process. It's a balance, and it's nuanced as you so rightly point out.

Anyway, just wanted to cheers to you for saying so. I know you're very well respected here because you've stuck around to post for so long, and there are very few folks who do so. Thank you for that. And for being honest in your own struggles, which don't magically cease if your spouse returns. Thank you for your honesty there as well. I hope you have a very Happy New year and of course Happy Anniversary as well!
Yail,

Thank you so much for posting to me! You have given me a lot to think about. I appreciate that. I am going to read your post a few more times and let it sink in further. I don't want to just post the same GAL GAL GAL over and over again! There really is so much more to this than that. Honestly, I didn't even post after my own BD. It was so, so painful and I was a mess. I was depressed, anxious, could barely eat or sleep, or even focus on work. I was not okay. I was just trying to survive. I admire all of you that can come here and share your vulnerabilities. We need to be more patient and kind, and I include myself in that.

I would like to read your threads. I do hope you stay with us. It is also good for the community to have more diverse posters so we all feel welcomed. I would hate to think that people didn't post because they felt misunderstood, judged or not welcomed. Sometimes by sharing our own stories or perspectives, we can help create a culture of inclusiveness. I know that there are many more people that read here that don't post. I know because I was one of them.

To anyone reading, I would love to hear your story, even if it isn't like mine or the others'. Just send me a note here :-)

Blu
Originally Posted by BluWave

To anyone reading, I would love to hear your story, even if it isn't like mine or the others'. Just send me a note here :-)

*raises hand
Hi blu-
I’ve been reading your thread and I also read what you posted to may22 in her thread. You are amazing for being able to point out those things. I’d love for you to read about my story and share your thoughts on it if you have any. Thanks!!
Hi Woosa,

Sure! I am happy to. It might take me a little while among the holiday madness, but I will start soon.

Thanks for reaching out!

Blu
Hi blu
Also raising my hand,
Would greatly value and appreciate your thoughts.
Blu, I just loved your comments on May’s thread. If you have a chance to peek at mine and give your perspective, that would be great. Thank you.
Me too, Blu. I'd love to get your critique of my sitch!
Hi, Blu. I’ve been reading here since my H’s BD in June and just recently started posting in the MLC board. I’ve been following your sitch, and your posts have been really helpful to me as I’ve begun to understand my H as a nice guy who has always devoted himself to making the women in his life (friends, mom, me) happy, but not himself. Until BD, I didn’t realize he was doing this to such an extent; I really believed he was mostly happy. Now he seems to be riding high on his new life with no responsibilities to anyone but himself and is planning to file for D in the new year—well, he seems to think he is having the time of his life, but to me he often seems angry and unhappy. In your posts to May, you also reiterated to her that she isn’t wholly responsible for a SSM. I really needed to read that too. I wanted to thank you for your posts here, and if you have time after the holidays, I would so appreciate any perspective you have on my sitch. I’m thinking I may need to really concentrate on learning how to drop the rope going forward. Merry Christmas, Blu!
Happy holidays, friends!

Thank you for reaching out to me! I am truly flattered that you have so much confidence in me! I also take that responsibility seriously and will think carefully before replying. I fear I am somewhat limited in my understanding of walkaways, because my own H was completely wayward. I get the sense from reading stories here that waywards are more likely to return to the M. The infidelity can feel like a bigger betrayal, however their fantasy of building a new life with someone else is more likely to self destruct than if they have been planning to leave on their own for some time. So in my sitch, my H was chasing something else more so than running away from something, which is perhaps why he fell so hard.

So I will get to your threads soon. The holidays are a busy time and I also work more in the winter months. But I will start reading today.

I am also so thrilled to see Dilly posted an update! I look forward to reading that too. Welcome back, Dilly, we’ve missed you! Hugs!

Merry holidays, friends! I hope everyone can take some moments of joy for themselves. I recall a very painful holiday season after BD 5 years ago. So I want to offer you all comfort and hope. Things can and will get better, you just have to believe. Happiness is not ever handed to us, it is something we learn to create. Give a small gift of happiness to yourself, even if only for a small moment between the sadness.

Peace and love.

Cheers!
Blu
Hello friends,

I believe I am overdue for an update! I apologize I have not gotten to your threads. I have not been good about keeping up with threads and only check here occasionally, so I tend to mostly read the ones I have previously started. I also find myself triggered by reading here and want to be mindful of what I post or how I react. After I read, I try and step away and reflect on how things affect me and why, rather than just dish out more advice. There has also been some conflict arising in some threads, and it leaves a sour taste in my mouth. I don't want to create space for that in my life, and especially with strangers. I will try my best to not engage and be mindful of what I post, but I really do not like reading negativity from others.

My sitch is coming up on 5 years since my H ended his A and did a rather quick 180. I don't think about OW or the A much anymore, because it doesn't serve me. He did everything he could do to be remorseful, transparent and commit to piecing. I try and look forward now because the wounds do heal in time. My H is a very nice man, father and provider. He is warm, present and I believe honest. My irritations with him are not deal breakers and more so imperfections -- I would like him to discipline the kids more, plan more things for us and for our family, and I think he needs to GAL for himself, rather than solely be present for us. I think he has a way of putting others first, and not himself, and perhaps many years ago that attributed to his resentment towards me, which preceded the A and BD.

At times I feel there is something missing between us, but I also know I keep my guard up. It is also difficult not to compare our connection to pre-BD days. We get along okay most days and I think we do a good job of balancing work, household duties and the kids' activities. Our kids have a lot of activities, so many evenings are consumed by driving them around. I think it is wonderful for them, but it also takes away from family dinners or time that we should be spending together. When we do spend time together, even nice time, it is still not the same level of closeness we shared for many years before BD. I still don't know how to best create that. We went on a date recently, got in an argument, and I just raged at him. It's like this anger bubbles to the surface and I wonder why it is still there and so strong.

I know cognitively I have to work on building a stronger connection between us, but I also lack a basic desire or motivation. I also find myself annoyed at him about little things. He says I expect him to be perfect. I don't know how true that is, but I do feel myself irritated about things that seem unreasonable to be upset about. It is hard to have to frequently talk myself out of it. Not sure that makes sense. ... I also need to be better at self care. It is easy to fall back into old habits. I have been spending time reading a good book and less time reading here, which I think is good for me. I also have an awesome trip recently with my BFF and that always feeds my soul. I don't put a lot of energy into building closeness with H, but again, I can't seem to find that desire.

Blu
Hi Blu,

Thanks for sharing your update and where you are. I was wondering as I read your thread-- do you think that some of the things you're noticing now (the irritations) were always there, and you just notice them more because this process has caused you (maybe you both) to be so much more focused on the R, maybe especially sensitive to the potentially negative things? Do you think there might be some level of rosy glasses on the pre-BD days? I know I fall prey to that.

I have a suggestion for you (to take or leave, and maybe you've done it already)-- I've read in a number of places the value of doing something new together, something where you take a risk, where you feel the adrenaline and endorphins and share that experience together. I wonder if getting out of your regular groove and doing something crazy and silly and physical on your next date could be healing for you and help to rebuild that connection. Like roller coasters, amusement parks, learning a new language, scuba diving, ropes course... I don't know. Just something that gets you both out of your comfort zone.

God, I need to spend more time reading a good book and less time reading here! Maybe that will be my next GAL move.

Thinking of you as always.
May, thank you for weighing in. Yes, I agree with all of your points. I appreciate you highlighting them the way that you did. I will continue to think about them.

I do think some of my irritations with him have always been there, and perhaps I now feel more entitled to express them, and also I know he listens to me now. In the past, I feel he would brush things under the rug, and just do as I asked, and then I was the more "controlling" one in our M. He allowed for that, instead of standing up to me, and that built further resentment. I think he was building resentment towards me for many years and I was oblivious because he often presented as the Nice Guy, Mr fix it, Mr wonderful H and dad. So now I have the challenge of understanding the difference between a trigger and what points I just disagree with him on.

Yes, I am the most guilty of wearing rosy-glasses. We stayed in that "honey moon phase" for far too many years. I almost had him on a pedestal. People would even complement us on how cute or in love we were and I put a lot of energy into our R. Perhaps I had this idea of who he was and how I wanted to see him. And he frequently reinforced those ideas by being so nice, warm and accommodating. Friends and family loved him and could always rely on him to help out or drive kids around, etc. He wouldn't disagree or put up resistance to things. A lot of posters use terms here quite loosely, including the Mr Nice Guy term, but in all the men I have met in my life, my H fits the description completely. Again, what I didn't see was that he was suffocating and building resentment. I think I also was critical and controlling and the bad guy in our R, but in hind sight I think I was also frustrated that he didn't stand up for himself and was losing respect for him, as I saw him as a door mat at times.

I really like your idea of building something new together. We have tried at times, but not with enough dedication, and so nothing sticks. I also need to prioritize the time with him, and not pour all of our time into the kids. I guess where I am stuck now is finding that desire/motivation, and if I can't find it, I just need to make the decision and do it. I think I also grapple with being the person who has to bring this forward and pitch the ideas. He will most likely agree and go along with it (that is still very much who he is), but I somehow hold onto hope that he will be a leader and have the wherewithal to plan something for us.

Blu
Originally Posted by BluWave
I do think some of my irritations with him have always been there, and perhaps I now feel more entitled to express them, and also I know he listens to me now. In the past, I feel he would brush things under the rug, and just do as I asked, and then I was the more "controlling" one in our M. He allowed for that....

Yes, I am the most guilty of wearing rosy-glasses. We stayed in that "honey moon phase" for far too many years. I almost had him on a pedestal. People would even complement us on how cute or in love we were and I put a lot of energy into our R. Perhaps I had this idea of who he was and how I wanted to see him. And he frequently reinforced those ideas by being so nice, warm and accommodating. Friends and family loved him and could always rely on him to help out or drive kids around, etc. He wouldn't disagree or put up resistance to things. A lot of posters use terms here quite loosely, including the Mr Nice Guy term, but in all the men I have met in my life, my H fits the description completely. Again, what I didn't see was that he was suffocating and building resentment. I think I also was critical and controlling and the bad guy in our R, but in hind sight.....


Honestly this made me tear up reading this. The difference is my H wasn't ever accommodating. But when I would ask him what's going on he'd always brush it under the rug, or pick fights about nothing and when I'd ask what it was really about he looked at me like I was nuts. We also were in that honeymoon phase for way too long. I had him on a pedestal. People said the same thing about us. And I dumped everything I had left in me after the emotional spending of my mental health issues, my grief over my mom, and running the world, into loving him and not one ounce was left for myself. I thought I was special and he deserved all I had left because of what he said to me and what felt like deep felt actions. But now looking back at it my H until this whole mess just slowly left more and more and more responsibility up to me until I started to crack and under the weight of grief and depression and running the house, our family, and our relationship. I got incredibly critical, and exasperated, and started to get more controlling because I had no other choice and was drowning. What I hadn't realized until all this happened was he was drowning too. He was depressed too.
Blu,

I'm glad you're doing well, though still struggling with connection and desire. Expanding on May's suggestions, have you heard of the "Adventure Date Challenge Book"? There are several types out, but essentially, it gives you random and exciting date ideas. The whole premise is to focus on completing the date together and enjoy the ride. Maybe instead of waiting for H to plan something on his own (or God forbid suggesting that he do so), this would take the pressure off and allow for a new experience that you could both share together. Plus, you can set aside a planned evening and dedicate yourselves to the teamwork aspect wink. I am sure it feels frustrating to not have the desire come as easily as it once did. I know one of my fears is staying and not ever having that complete trust and connection again. Thanks for updating us all and being such a strong, empowering female on the forums.

KG
Hi Blu,

Is there something crazy that *you* want to do? And you can sign up and invite him along? You can always start small and build up to something larger down the line. Like go to one of those pottery places where you paint your own pieces, see stand up comedy or go a video games and skee ball type place and just have fun... not necessarily learning a new language or something big like that. Maybe it will help with the motivation if you sincerely want to do whatever activity in and of itself, not just as a means to spend time or reconnect with him. (And FWIW, maybe you give him a couple of suggestions to decide between so that *he* also has some agency and buy-in as well!) if you're reading a good book, can you give it to him afterwards to read and then talk about it? I feel like there are all these things that we used to do with our Hs early on, dating and talking late into the night about important things, and then I know at least for me a lot of those long interesting conversations end up happening with girlfriends rather than with H.

I have two other questions. (Sorry!! I can't help it.) Is he better, now, at verbalizing what he feels or wants or needs, or do you have to be vigilant to see it happening and stop it? If so, I can see how that must be so very very tiring and a lot of pressure on you. And my other question is-- have you ever told him explicitly you'd love nothing more than for him to plan something for the two of you? If not, is it something you would consider?

Here's a thought-- I read somewhere about an idea for a vacation to have every person (kids included) to have one day 100% percent to themselves to plan, and no-one else gets to have any sort of say in the plans for that one day. I love that idea. I gave my girls the day of "yes" a couple of weeks ago and it was so, so fun. I said yes to everything they suggested, including watching TV in the middle of the day, eating goldfish and candy at 10 am, jumping in the cold swimming pool all together and making a giant bubble bath with a ridiculous amount of bubbles. It was soul-feeding for me even though I would barely have wanted to do any of it (well, maybe except for the bubble bath, but that was just them anyway.) Maybe something like that could work for your family, or at least for your H-- what a 180 for him to actually plan a whole day of things for the family (or for the two of you) that are 100% his decision, no guilt because next time will be your turn. Just a thought.

M
Blu - I've just read back through your first post. Everything you said about their guilt and shame seemed true to me - and indeed is something I have been pondering for some time. Thank you for sharing. It is a truth I don't think my husband will ever want to share with me, but reading your words helped me to reframe some of the more negative thoughts that are rearing their ugly heads.

Also, thank you for continuing to post here and to help others. I am always astonished by posters, like yourself, who continue to give their time to this community long after their sitchs have resolved (though reading some of the piecing threads, are they ever really resolved).

I read somewhere about a couple who took turns coming up with ideas for date night. They had to go through the alphabet - each coming up with a date idea starting with whatever letter they were on. It included "Art class", "Wine Tasting", "Bubbly and Chocolates", "Chocolate making", "Pottery". It takes the pressure of having to talk, and gave a focus to the dates. You spend time together and build some shared memories.

Just an idea.
(((Wayfarer))) I could have written your post almost verbatim. It all resonates with me. I am sorry for your pain. It is so hard to "wake up" after BD and come to these realizations. Needless to say, this has been a very long journey for me, as I am thinking it could be for you. I have had to overcome a lot of depression and anxiety, in addition to piecing, while simultaneously making sense of the years leading up to BD. I am not necessarily a believer that everything happens for a reason, because in my line of work I see so many terrible things happen to good people that are undeserving on a daily basis. However, I choose to believe that we can find reason in everything that has happened. For me, this has been the biggest silver lining in my sitch. I can reflect back on my life and myself in ways that are more open-minded, less judgmental and also more forgiving now. I am open to looking at my own flaws and I am more open to change and therefore personal growth. I think I like myself more now than I did before. So while I do not feel grateful for the pain/suffering that BD caused, I do feel grateful for the awakenings that have happened in the last few years during the recovery. That is my biggest wish for everyone here, and I think it is more meaningful than saving a M, because some of them simply not salvageable (without the other half willing).

Kristin, thanks for that idea, I will look into it. It sounds like an excuse, but the time is also hard to find. The desire/connection is really not the same as it was the first many years of our M. Before someone betrays us or hurts us, we see them in a different light. We trust them and we also imagine things will be a certain, better, way (rosy glasses). I thought my H was amazing, perfect, would never hurt me, and we would have this incredible romance forever. I was truly blind and in shock when this unfolded 6 years ago. .... So when we then make a choice to recover a broken R, we do so without the rosy glasses. We now know this person is capable of betrayal and harm, so the love feels different. It feels like a calculated decision and less of a feeling or emotion that comes naturally. I choose to believe there is honor in this type of love, or second chance, because I am not sending the message that I can be a forgiving person and also that I can still love him despite his flaws. I just wasn't willing to do that until I saw his remorse, transparency and commitment to doing whatever it took. For me, I needed that to come before accepting him back. I also am learning that I am different than you, May and other posters, who have different criteria :-) It has been helping me to read and be more open-minded.

TBC

Blu
May, thank you for your thoughtful reply. I will have to think more on the dating ideas. I feel as if my life is so full right now that it is hard for me to prioritize my R with him. I can barely keep up with things here! At the same time, I am often annoyed by people saying they are "too busy' for things because I believe that we make choices by what we prioritize! I was being polite to a new co-worker and talking about what Netflix series' I have liked and she told me she was too busy for television. She sounded so snooty when she said it. Um, what? I don't believe she is married, has kids, and her job title is far less demanding than mine. I am over here working full time with plenty of OT (I mean 16 hr shifts), 3 kids, and I still run my household, drive them to their sports and activities and find time to volunteer to their programs. And guess what? I still make occasional time for tv because I enjoy it and like to tune out of my life. I was sick with strep a couple weeks ago and enjoyed being in bed and powering through a hilarious series. What I don't have time for is that lady and her judgy tone! Sorry for the rant, but come on. Telling ME your busy is just asking to get shut down. I was proud of myself for smiling and saying none of that :-)

Anyhow, I know if it's important to me to have fun and new adventures with H, I will do it. It feels hard right now. I feel like there are still some things we need to come to agreements on or agree to disagree on. I don't imagine either of us want to have these conversations because they end up in arguments. It is exhausting. And they hurt in a new way.

"Is he better, now, at verbalizing what he feels or wants or needs, or do you have to be vigilant to see it happening and stop it?" YES. He is. He has made several changes or at least he tries. He was committed to making positive changes when he came back, because he knew he had to offer me more than a simple apology. He grasped how complicated things would be to piece. I think the NMMNG book became an important part of his recovery because so much of it spoke to him. He felt like the book was written for him.

"And my other question is-- have you ever told him explicitly you'd love nothing more than for him to plan something for the two of you? If not, is it something you would consider?" This seems like a simple answer, but it's not. I have told him so many times, before and after BD. There have been times he has tried and it is often the same, thoughtless dates with no creativity. Other times, he responds with how flexible he is and he will do whatever I want. That doesn't go over well. Usually his response is that I am guarded and do not seem open to him. That never goes over well. So we easily fall back into old routines. I say when we should go out and I plan it. Lame, I know. Like I said before, the issue right now is more my lack of motivation to create more closeness. I think we will need to flesh out a few things and I think we both are avoiding the inevitable arguments that will come with that.

Flysolo, thank you for posting. I think I have read some of your posts, but not all. I appreciate you messaging me. I try and stay around here and read and post, but I can't seem to balance even one hour a day, unfortunately.

Blu
Yo!

Just read your update. Nothing like having your world turned upside down to offer you some new perspective, right? As for the "too busy for tv" thing, well I've been guilty of saying things like that to act holier than thou. Looking back, it is embarrassing. I consider it an objection and not a condition.

As for your H not taking charge, I can see how that would disappointing. You just want him to come up with something fun and not say he'll "do whatever". You want him to give it some thought and effort, right? Well, all I can say is to be sure you communicate what you actually want (occassionally anyways). My W doesn't like to say what she actually wants, she just wants it to happen. I can understand that too, it's just that every once in a while it doesn't hurt to mention and make sure us dudes are having an awareness about this stuff.

That "do-whatever" mentality is what caused me to take 45 minutes to pick a movie. My wife hates that too. Just think of this way: one time my W and I drove around for an hour and half because I couldn't decide where I wanted to eat. You don't have it that bad do you? My W always says "this isn't your last meal", to which I respond "you don't know that!".

What tv shows are you watching? I've been watching a lot of 90 Day Fiance and Married At First Sight. They are my cheap entertainment. I am waiting for my next "deep" show to come out. I don't know what it is yet so I'll probably go rewatch the Sopranos or something in the meantime.
Blu, from my days as an animal trainer... is there a way you can make the goal easier for your H to achieve? So instead of planning a whole date from scratch (which he'll fail at, either not do or do something boring) you give him some set options to work from? Or alternatively, he plans something that is totally boring but you still reinforce it really heavily (because at least he planned it), make him feel great, and then the next time give him hints to help him stretch a bit more?

Another idea (sorry, I know I'm a solutioner and that can be really annoying, I also TOTALLY UNDERSTAND how you're feeling and maybe don't want a lot of ideas right now) is to write him a letter or an email? Say how the best gift he can give you for (special occasion) would be to plan something along these lines-- again make it easy for him to succeed, or rely on a friend or a kid to help guide him? I have read that sometimes having a written letter is more impactful than saying in person, because you can be really clear and they can refer back to it, plus it carries a formality and weight that speaking in person doesn't really have.

on other topics... I hate those snooty people who are too good for TV! Or whatever. Try not to let their judgmental nonsense bring you down! And I'm glad he's improved a lot in his NMG behaviors.

Originally Posted by BluWave
Like I said before, the issue right now is more my lack of motivation to create more closeness. I think we will need to flesh out a few things and I think we both are avoiding the inevitable arguments that will come with that.

I guess I'm just not totally connecting on this. Is there any way to unhinge your lack of motivation for closeness to whatever conversations need to be had that will lead to arguments? This is probably naive but it kind of seems like if you could set cultivating more closeness as a first goal, that could lead to scenarios where the next steps could happen in a place where you're both feeling better about each other and the R and therefore less arguing or at least more constructive conversations about the things that need to be fleshed out?
Hi everyone,

I have lost track of what is happening here. I look forward to the day when things slow down and I can catch up on some of your sitches. I am an ICU nurse & charge nurse in an area that is preparing to get hit hard in the days and weeks to come. We have a very vulnerable and diverse population. It has been surreal. I have been working almost every day, and the stress and anxiety wherever I turn is palpable. I am not eating or sleeping well and I find myself in this perpetual state of fight or flight. We cannot get test results on our patients in a timely manor. We do not have enough appropriate isolation rooms or PPE. I have to ration PPE to my staff and ask them to resuse it. We know when the patients come in larger numbers we will run out. Nurses are falling off the schedule. We will need double or quadrouble the staff to accommodate the volume we may see. And on and on ... I am not afraid of getting sick. I am afraid of being in a situation where we cannot care for people and have to neglect care we would normally be able to provide. It kills me to even think about ... it is also interesting to see people's different responses during a crisis. Some stand up and fight, some hide, some try to carry on and act as if business is usual .... I feel proud that I am a fighter.

My kids have been shelter in place. They are doing well with it thus far. It has been strange in some ways and there have actually been some positives that I didn't anticipate. We have had more family dinners, game nights, and time together. A usual evening is driving them around to practices, lessons and games. Now we are all together and sometimes it is nice. H has been awesome. He has been shopping (with his social distancing of course), organizing, cleaning, and taking on with helping the the kids schooling (which is now online).

I feel fortunate that we are both able to still work and support our family. I am lucky my kids are old enough to be home alone so we can still go to work. We still have our health. I think life as we know it will be different after this pandemic calms down. I imagine we will all learn some valuable life lessons from this time. I am already thinking about what is important to me and why. I already feel gratitude that i can make a positive difference in my community. Much like the chaos of BD, I am learning more about my own personal strengths and what I am capable of.

Take care of yourselves everyone :-)))

Blu

AND STAY THE F HOME, PLEASE!
Wow Blu, that sounds terribly stressful! Thank you for your service to the community in this difficult time and may your workload be lessened very soon!

Regarding staying home, I am pretty angry about that. My boss is old school and thinks people are goofing off if they work from home. He directed us to keep going to the office even though we could work from home. Two women that work here are pregnant for crying out loud!! I work in Dallas and Dallas County passed a shelter-in-place order. Well guess what, my boss decided that since we do design work for a telecom company that the order doesn't apply to us and wants us to STILL come to the office. I'm here today but I just flat-out told him I'm going to be working from home for a while, I'm very fit and healthy but at 58 I really can't afford to take chances with my life. But I have to balance that with keeping an income flowing, one of my daughters lost her job yesterday and the other just survived a first wave of lay-offs but more are on the way. These are very difficult times for everyone but especially those in your profession.
One of my neighbors/in-laws family friends is married and his wife is a RN. She just got laid off b/c she works in surgery and they aren't doing any of that. Now I probably have half of the story right but I figured someone might hire her before this whole mess is over. I am staying positive that we can and will care for everyone that needs it.

I don't know if you have a yard but my W and her sister were always practicing at home, lots of drills that their pitching coach gave them to work on and other skills too!

I pray that our economy bounces back quickly too because that has the potential to hurt many as well. We have to count our blessings. Stay safe.
I've been thinking about you, Blu, as a nurse during this crazy time and so glad you checked in to update everyone. Stay safe and thank you for being on the front lines of this.
Blu,

Stay safe. Been thinking about you. Please keep us updated.

Prayers going up for you, your family and all your co-workers on the front line.

Joejoe01
Posted By: job Re: 4 years pieced and still a work in progress! - 03/26/20 01:27 PM
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