Persistent Endurance (Part 2)

[curtis7]

Link to Part 1:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2841771#Post2841771

[curtis7]

Are there examples of others that have taken this step and were successful in having their W reconcile?

I am not sure if steve85 did this, but I believe he said he would now.

I'm going to sleep on this. If she is staying with divorced BFF all week, then I've got some time to get the boxes packed.

[SteveLW]

Are there examples of others that have taken this step and were successful in having their W reconcile?

I am not sure if steve85 did this, but I believe he said he would now.

My sitch was quite different. But yes, if my WW had been making plans to see OM I would absolutely take this step. While legally you can't get her out of the house, you can kick her out of the MBR.

[LH19]

C,

Removing her from the MB and packing her stuff for her shows her that you know what is going on and you are not going to sit back and accept that your W is sleeping with other men.

I would also contact a lawyer and see that since your W is staying with her friend for the week if you can file abandonment charges which you can use in the divorce settlement.

There is a saying around here that things need get get worse before they get better.

[AnotherStander]

I understand the mentality and packing her stuff is a definite 180. I refer back to my notes from Divorce Remedy. Michele recommended that we keep the following question in mind, "Is what I'm about to do going to bring me closer or bring farther away from my goal?" Michele also says timing is everything and you must be patient.

Are there examples of others that have taken this step and were successful in having their W reconcile?

Curtis, basically what you have is a woman who no longer considers herself married to you. She feels that she can behave however she wants with whoever she wants whenever she wants and it is none of your business. The extent of your involvement in her life is how much she can take advantage of you to help pay the bills or babysit. You are so caught up in the post-BD fog that you actually think this is someone you want to reconcile with. You need to hear and understand this- YOUR OLD W IS GONE. She's been body-snatched by this lying cheater. Your goal should not be to reconcile, it should be to create distance with this monster and rebuild your life, with the hopes that some day she will change and maybe reconciling will be an option then. But man she has a long way to fall before that time.

As for your question, read TXHubby's threads, he had a lying cheating W that he spent months trying to placate and it drove him to the brink of a heart attack or nervous breakdown. He finally got sick and tired of being a patsy and went full man-mode and shut down on her and truly GAL'd and quit caring ANYTHING about her. He didn't care what she did, who with, etc. She wasn't even worth saying "good morning" to anymore. She suddenly realized what she was losing, snapped out of it and literally begged him to take her back. So yes, the tough love approach has led to recon for some. But here's the thing- you can't fake it. You can't pretend to want to kick her out while secretly fretting and chewing your fingernails over it because she will see right through it. You have to want her gone with every fiber of your being. So my advice, don't pack up her stuff because you are not there yet. Instead, focus on you. Work on you. Quit focusing on your lying, cheating W and leave her to the mess she's making. At some point the scales will fall from your eyes and you will see who she is now rather than who she used to be, and THEN you will be ready to boot her the hell out.

[SteveLW]

Yes. Listen LH. Do not be paralyzed by fear. One of the most eye-opening awakenings I had was the realization that I had already lost her. I was fearing losing her, until then. If your W is lying, meeting and sleeping with OM. Staying away for a week at a time. She's already gone! Once you realize that then these actions people are suggesting become logical.

Please have a consultation with a lawyer. That was one of the most empowering actions I took in my sitch. And it made it real for my WW when she found out about it.

Protect your kids first. Yourself next. And the marriage third.

[SteveLW]

As usual AS is spot on!! Curtis no one is saying this stuff is easy. Nothing worthwhile is ever easy!

[curtis7]

Curtis, basically what you have is a woman who no longer considers herself married to you. She feels that she can behave however she wants with whoever she wants whenever she wants and it is none of your business. The extent of your involvement in her life is how much she can take advantage of you to help pay the bills or babysit. You are so caught up in the post-BD fog that you actually think this is someone you want to reconcile with. You need to hear and understand this- YOUR OLD W IS GONE.

As for your question, read TXHubby's threads.

AS, she hasn’t considered herself married in 4 months. She has shown this in her words and actions. As the LBH, it is so easy to view the WW for what she was and not what she is now. I think it is causes less pain for us in that respect because we like to cling to hope that our loving W will return.

I see that she has so much farther to fall before she could possibly realize what she is losing.

I will read TXHubby’s story.

[AnotherStander]

AS, she hasn’t considered herself married in 4 months. She has shown this in her words and actions. As the LBH, it is so easy to view the WW for what she was and not what she is now. I think it is causes less pain for us in that respect because we like to cling to hope that our loving W will return.

Yup you are quite correct on that! And I am most certainly not defending her actions. She IS married, and her behavior as a married woman who swore an oath to her husband is disgusting and reprehensible. I'm just saying that in her foggy wayward mind she has convinced herself that what she is doing it OK.

I will read TXHubby’s story.

Steve is a great DB'er and his story is an excellent read too, he had one of the fastest turnarounds of anyone here. I point you to TXHubby though because his W was really, really far gone like yours is. Like to a point that it looked like there was no return. I have a friend whose W was like that too, she went wayward and decided she was done. She was super angry and spewing and ran off and shacked up with an OM. They sold their home, sold their business, split things up and he didn't talk to her at all for nearly 2 years. That's how long it took for her to come out of her fog and start missing him again. They started talking, then going out, now they are reconciled and very happy together (it's been 4 or 5 years I think). He didn't know a thing about DB'ing, but he knew enough not to beg/ plead/ negotiate and instead just let her go.

[Ready2Change]

Read all of the threads here:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2831362

[curtis7]

Read all of the threads here:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2831362

Reading through some of these now, this one struck me based on her verbal attack on me last night:

Your very best move here from a psychological perspective is to completely go the other way. You leave her versus her leaving you. Don't accept anything she's telling you about this being your fault, just outright reject it. Don't compromise on that, don't think you'll be a nice guy and meet in the middle, feel free to make her angry. She needs to believe that you consider yourself to be more valuable than the treatment you've been getting.

[curtis7]

I’ve been spending a lot of time contemplating what action I should take next. I’m leaning against boxing her stuff right now, I don’t want the kids to be exposed to that and have to answer their questions. Unlike my W, I’m not comfortable lying to my children. Speaking of which, my S asked if BFF’s D was still sick. My W said “Wait...what???” Then, she remembered that was the lie she told my kids as the reason they couldn’t go to BFF’s place when my W went off to her PA. Then she said, “Oh, she’s still very sick.”

I’ve gone dark towards her with virtually no contact (kids only) since her verbal attack on me over the phone on the way to her PA two days ago. She hasn’t attempted contacting me either. I doubt she’s picked up on how disrespected I felt that was, probably too late to tell her, I should have taken a stand as it was occurring.

I’ve spent all week with the kids while they are on Spring Break. We went to the driving range/putting green on Monday. I spent yesterday burning several trees that I had cut down over the past few months in the horse pasture. Today was spent with more quality time playing games with kids and tree trimming.

My only interaction with WW was small talk about her nails last night and her mentioning that a mutual friend might get a new puppy. Also, tonight she commented on my haircut from a few days ago and pointed out that the stylist missed a few hairs in the back. She got the scissors out and trimmed them for me.

She is staying at our house tonight because I plan to work tomorrow. I was dressed nicely when she got home and fed the kids. She asked if I was going out tonight and I said yep. I left shortly after to treat myself to a nice dinner followed by a trip to the gym.

I’m continuing to read stories of other DBers and recommended threads.

[curtis7]

Out enjoying myself with GAL tonight, W sends texts.
W: “I need to ask a question and I hope you will respond truthfully and quickly. ”
W: “Are you on a date? ”
W: “Totally okay if you are. Just curious. “
H: “No. I haven't given up on us”
Right or wrong response?

[LH19]

Family Fued X buzzer. Wrong answer!

Interpretation

W: Are you still my plan B
H: yes I’m still your plan B

No response required. Get up and dust yourself off.

[Ready2Change]

Better response:


H"No. The last thing I need in my life is another woman to make things even more complicated."

[Ready2Change]

She is projecting. She wants to justify her actions.

[curtis7]

Family Fued X buzzer. Wrong answer!

Interpretation

W: Are you still my plan B
H: yes I’m still your plan B

No response required. Get up and dust yourself off.

Yep, blew that one, right after piquing her curiosity.

[Ready2Change]

Remember, nothing needs a quick response.

You can always get feedback here first.

[curtis7]

She is projecting. She wants to justify her actions.

Agreed, if I was on a date, then she would feel better about setting up her next hookup.

[curtis7]

Since she is back from divorced BFF’s for tonight, she thought she was going to sleep in the MBR. She was sitting on a chair in the MBR texting someone nonstop. I walked in and said I need to go to sleep. She gave me a scowl, got up and walked out without saying a word.

[Ready2Change]

I walked in and said I need to go to sleep. She gave me a scowl, got up and walked out without saying a word.

Perfect!

[curtis7]

So, I was going to bring her water pillow to the guest bedroom, but as I approached the door I overheard her talking on the phone with divorced BFF. Something about how 25 year old OM made her feel like he gave her a dismissal and she is really confused by it. She went on to talk about 3 other guys from the dating app, I guess she is serial dating now.

She said she was hoping that I would say yes to being on a date, so she could just be open about what she is doing with other men and stop having to hide it.

Then she said I made a power play by taking the MBR back and that it was annoying as F***. She also said she was curious where I was going out at night and doesn’t understand why I wouldn’t tell our S where I go when he asked me.

She sounded very disappointed that OM isn’t giving her attention...the lows of limerence. OM is a user that will show up when it’s convenient for him and WW will cater to his every wish.

She is so deep into waywardness...no water pillow tonight.

[ovrrnbw]

Curtis, she needs....NNEEEDDDSSS...just absolutely needs you to respond truthfully and honestly. Yet she can have an affair, multiple affairs. Next time she says something you need to remember that you have to vomit first.

[curtis7]

I was listening to a Podcast this morning and it discussed your spouse becoming detached and the unlikelihood that they will return to the marriage. They differentiate between despair which I think my W was going through last year during IC and detachment which I think was the result of my W’s IC coupled with temptations and advances from other men.

Maybe others could listen to the episode below and give thoughts on WW being detached.

Listen to Hell or Highwater Detachment and Despair After An Affair from Healing Broken Trust In Your Marriage After Infidelity in Podcasts. https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast...ty/id1156329240?mt=2&i=1000382895796

[AnotherStander]

I’ve been spending a lot of time contemplating what action I should take next.

I know you feel like you need to "do something" but you don't. DB'ing is more about pulling back and giving her time and space while you work on you. We all come here thinking that we need to do SOMETHING so we want to know what the "right" thing to say or do is. We need control back! But right now her mindset is that you are the reason for every bad thing in her life and removing you is her path to newfound peace, love and prosperity. The only thing you can do to combat that view of hers is to remove yourself from the equation. Don't fight. Don't argue. Don't beg, plead, negotiate. Don't beg her to stay, don't beg her to leave. Don't ask her out. Be scarce when you're both home. When she talks, you listen. You validate no matter how crazy the stuff is coming out of her mouth. Let go of your need to "control" the relationship.

I’ve gone dark towards her with virtually no contact (kids only) since her verbal attack on me over the phone on the way to her PA two days ago. She hasn’t attempted contacting me either. I doubt she’s picked up on how disrespected I felt that was, probably too late to tell her, I should have taken a stand as it was occurring.

Be careful about passive/aggressive responses to situations. You are correct, the time to address it is while it is happening. And you do that by politely and firmly saying that you will not be disrespected or you will hang up. If she continues then you hang up. Letting her tear you a new one and then going dark on her just looks like a passive/aggressive response. You need to start responding from a position of strength, and establishing boundaries is how you do that.

Out enjoying myself with GAL tonight, W sends texts.
W: “I need to ask a question and I hope you will respond truthfully and quickly. ”
W: “Are you on a date? ”
W: “Totally okay if you are. Just curious. “
H: “No. I haven't given up on us”
Right or wrong response?

OK well as LH said you established you are still firmly in place as Plan B. But also that response is pursuit behavior. It's you telling her "I won't let you go, I don't care that it's what you want, it's not what I want and what I want is all that matters." She doesn't care one bit about what you want. So don't tell her what you want. A lot of LBS's think that since they were poor at sharing feelings before BD that they should start now, that it's a good 180. NO. That is one area that you do not want to do a 180 because after BD, she ceases to care about your feelings. She may care later, and if recon happens THEN it will be time to 180 that. But not right now.

So, I was going to bring her water pillow to the guest bedroom, but as I approached the door I overheard her talking on the phone with divorced BFF. Something about how 25 year old OM made her feel like he gave her a dismissal and she is really confused by it. She went on to talk about 3 other guys from the dating app, I guess she is serial dating now.

How's all that snooping making you feel?

She said she was hoping that I would say yes to being on a date, so she could just be open about what she is doing with other men and stop having to hide it.

Right, it gets hard to keep track of all those lies. It's easier to be a truthful cheater than a lying cheater. I swear the crap that comes out of their mouths sometimes.

She is so deep into waywardness...no water pillow tonight.

Next time leave it outside her door. Then she'll see it and wonder how long you were out there and what you heard. She might even ask if you heard anything. Say "yes" and walk away.

[curtis7]

I know you feel like you need to "do something" but you don't. DB'ing is more about pulling back and giving her time and space while you work on you.

Great advice, got it.

Be careful about passive/aggressive responses to situations.

I have a tendency for these types of responses, thanks for pointing that out. I need to be more aware of how I choose to respond to turn the negatives into positives.

How's all that snooping making you feel?

Actually it gave me some insightful perspective on her current state of mind and where I stand. After hearing all the lies for so long, it was refreshing to hear her true feelings despite how negative they are towards recon right now. It gives motivation to double down on my 180s and GAL to show her what she’s missing.

I’m also hopeful that her limerence with the 25 year OM could be fizzling if he stops reciprocating. She even mentioned some astrology crap about how there was a meteor shower and shooting stars on the night they met in November and she felt instant attraction when their eyes locked. Then, how last night was a full moon which signaled it might be over. Nevertheless, it seems like she is ready to transfer that fantasy to anyone else, except LBH.

Right, it gets hard to keep track of all those lies. It's easier to be a truthful cheater than a lying cheater. I swear the crap that comes out of their mouths sometimes.

It must be quite the challenge to juggle all the lies in her mind to me, kids, OM, and dating app prospects.

[AnotherStander]

Actually it gave me some insightful perspective on her current state of mind and where I stand. After hearing all the lies for so long, it was refreshing to hear her true feelings despite how negative they are towards recon right now. It gives motivation to double down on my 180s and GAL to show her what she’s missing.

Well that's good, we usually encourage people not to snoop because you usually get little fragments of info that you don't know how to decipher and it just causes more confusion and angst. But if it gave you some insight and incentive then hey, run with it. I'd just caution not to continue snooping because you probably won't get any info beyond what you already have now, and if she catches you then she will likely get very angry and hold it over your head for a long time.

I’m also hopeful that her limerence with the 25 year OM could be fizzling if he stops reciprocating.

Don't pin your hopes on that improving your sitch because she's likely to just go on the hunt for OM2, 3 and 4. That's what usually happens.

Nevertheless, it seems like she is ready to transfer that fantasy to anyone else, except LBH.

Yes, exactly.

[Ready2Change]

I am just thinking outloud. Other people opinion welcome.


These two stand out:

Out enjoying myself with GAL tonight, W sends texts.
W: “I need to ask a question and I hope you will respond truthfully and quickly. ”
W: “Are you on a date? ”
W: “Totally okay if you are. Just curious. “
H: “No. I haven't given up on us”
Right or wrong response?

so she could just be open about what she is doing with other men and stop having to hide it.

When you are ready and the opportunity presents itself, flip her words back:


H:"W,The other day, you asked me to be honest with, and I was. I would like you to be open and honest with me. Will you do that?"
W"Bla bla bla bla OK?? bla bla"




Can you handle the truth? Can you listen to W without judgment? Can you validate (IE let her know you hear what she is saying without judging her).

Will it do any good? I do not know. Will it gain you respect? I do not know.

[curtis7]

W must not have appreciated being booted from MBR, she texts:

W: “Hi.. I am staying at divorced BFF’s tonight and would like to get to her place by 8.”
W: “I will be staying there tomorrow and Saturday as well. Then plan to be try to come back Sunday through next weekend. So all next week and weekend you can be free to do what you want.”

[ovrrnbw]

Don't respond.

[curtis7]

Text just popped up on her phone she left in the kitchen while I was making the kids dinner:

OM#?: “Sh*t. I have to rain check tonight.”

This after WW spent the past hour in the bathroom beautifying herself.

[SteveLW]

She's probably going to be in a bad mood. Be aware.

[curtis7]

I was reading my journal reflecting on all of W’s catch phrases since BD, here is a compilation that I’m sure many of you have heard, and warning for others, when dealing with the MLC/WW (listed in chronological order):

“I’m not sure we have a starting place to go back to”
“I stepped back to observe us and everything started to crystallize”
“This whole situation thing makes me sad”
“You have to give yourself time too”
“I will be happier if you are out of my life”
“Kids are resilient”
“I thought about saying no when you asked me to marry you”
“I only said yes because I thought that was what family and friends expected of me”
“Separation is the only way I could possibly think differently about you”
“It’s time for me to be selfish”
“Don’t touch me”
“I’m not attracted to you”
“I don’t even like the way you smell”
“I feel trapped, like you’re backing me into a corner”
“Stop being noble by trying to hold on”
“I don’t have regret over the OM, so I don’t care if you heal”
“Don’t trust me!”
“It’s too late, I have no feelings left for you to try and continue”
“I can’t give you what you want”
“I don’t need you”
“I want a divorce”
“I’m going to call a lawyer to discuss my options”
“I’ll just have to fake it”
“I’m not getting any younger and feel like I’m missing out on life”
“My mother died young and I don’t know how much time I have left”
“It’s not you, I’m broken”
“Separation doesn’t mean it’s necessarily over for us”
“I just don’t feel it right now, I’m wasting time, I’m convinced those feelings won’t return.”
“I promise not to see OM, but will not break off all contact with him”
“My skin crawls and anxiety skyrockets around you”
“I feel nothing for you, I’m not angry, I’m just indifferent”
“I don’t have any love left for you”
“I don’t know what to do, I’m so confused”
“I deleted everything associated with OM from my phone”
“I might be a bad person, but I don’t intentionally try to hurt people”
“A smart girl always has a backup plan”
“I want my freedom, I don’t want to have to answer to anyone”
“I just want to be single”
“Just let me go”
“I can’t see the forest for the trees”
“Let’s not get ahead of ourselves”
“Our marriage is only legal and doesn’t mean anything”
“I am moving out and have no intentions of coming back”
“You didn’t treat me right and didn’t make me feel loved”
“I don’t think I ever loved you”
“I know what I’m doing is unethical and immoral, but you are the cause”
“This is who I really am”

[ovrrnbw]

You're overthinking this big time. I'd focus on that last phrase "this is who I really am" and start believing that bc like most LBSs you think she's the old gal.

Quit paying attention to her a d go do awesome stuff with your life.

[97Hope]

I've heard most of those on the list. In addition to "You don't even know me".."I knew it was a mistake when we got married" and my favorite "I don't want a divorce but I the idea of being married to you anymore is impossible"

It's almost, almost! refreshing to hear the same lines from every WAS/MLC spouse because it kind of helps me realize that it's not just me. I hope that doesn't sound awful but just after BD I thought I was crazy.

I've come to realize, too, that when they talk about the problems, it's a continual moving target. What irritates you about them today, will be something different tomorrow.

To be fair, I lost my head in 2005 and really truly thought I had feeling for another man. I would give anything to not have done that back then. We both went out and dated and it was a nightmare. Looking back, I can see that it wasn't my H. It was alllll me.

Don't know if it helps, but I speak from experience in that the OM disgusts me when I think back on that time in my life, but not near as much as I disgust myself for doing that.

Take care.

[curtis7]

Quit paying attention to her and go do awesome stuff with your life.

O, planning to, just wanted to get those off my chest. I find when I post stuff like that, it’s easier to move on and not let it bother me.

Going to take the kids to the beach tomorrow and planning to go to a March Madness regional with some positive minded male friends on Saturday.

[Ready2Change]

H"No. The last thing I need in my life is another woman to make things even more complicated."

Here is where that statement came from:

Reverse Babble Pattern (Coach)
"I can't trust you" respond "I understand the lack of trust."
"I was ready to come back until this happened" respond "I can see how me knowing what I know would change your plans."
Other wise responses:
"You made me do it" respond "No, I don't control your actions this is your mess."
"We are just friends" respond "Please don't take me for a fool, we both know better."
"You are running around" Respond "No wife, I am actually very focused and another woman is the last thing I want now."
When in doubt say nothing or "I am thinking about what you said."

[Adam04]

Curtis,

Sorry to hear about your sitch and what you're going through. Enjoy the beach with the kids and March Madness sounds fun.

Double down on the GAL, you have way too much negative vibes from the whole list of what she's been saying, to what she is doing, telling her BFF, etc... just way too much.


R2C,

I thought that when it comes to admitting if there is or is not another woman involved, we should keep that quiet and stay the mystery man to keep them guessing from some of the responses I've seen.

I know in my sitch W asked a few times and I chose twice not to be mysterious but up front and let her know point blank I wasn't with someone else. I did feel like I was throwing it in her face one time when I think I said something like I don't need to stoop that low to be with someone else or something like that. I think someone said that was a bit passive aggressive and I have to agree. Nobody likes Mr Self Righteous either.

Thoughts?

[AnotherStander]

I was reading my journal reflecting on all of W’s catch phrases since BD, here is a compilation that I’m sure many of you have heard, and warning for others, when dealing with the MLC/WW (listed in chronological order):

That list is as sad as it is predictable! It's a great reminder of what goes on in the head of a WW though. I think at some level they realize how absurd it all sounds, but at the same time they want to believe they're innocent and it's all the LBS's fault. They can eventually reverse course and sometimes even admit they can't believe themselves that they said that stuff. One WW literally said it was like another person took over her body and was saying and doing things against her will. They don't always come out of the fog like that though.

[Ready2Change]

R2C,I thought that when it comes to admitting if there is or is not another woman involved, we should keep that quiet and stay the mystery man to keep them guessing from some of the responses I've seen.

Coach was very wise. He attracted his wife back. He helped others do the same.

What works for some does not work for others. What does not work for some, my work for others. It is all about being aware of the choices. Everyone has to evaluate their options and pick what they believe will work. Try it for a while, if it works keep doing it. If it doesn't try something else.

I know in my sitch W asked a few times and I chose twice not to be mysterious but up front and let her know point blank I wasn't with someone else. I did feel like I was throwing it in her face one time when I think I said something like I don't need to stoop that low to be with someone else or something like that. I think someone said that was a bit passive aggressive and I have to agree. Nobody likes Mr Self Righteous either.

Look closely how coach worded his response. He speaks the truth. He shows his core values. He is not being passive aggressive.

[Ready2Change]

“I’m not sure we have a starting place to go back to”

response "I am not sure either. I just know with absolute certainty that I do not want to be in this sitch again"

“I stepped back to observe us and everything started to crystallize”

“This whole situation thing makes me sad”

response "It is very sad."

“You have to give yourself time too”

"Yes, I think I will take some time to process everything"

“I will be happier if you are out of my life”

response "I want us both to be happy. Do what you need to make yourself happy."

“Kids are resilient”

response "some kids are very resilient, ours will have no choice. It is your choice to put them through this SIGNIFICANT stress."

“I thought about saying no when you asked me to marry you”

response "That must have been a hard decision."

“I only said yes because I thought that was what family and friends expected of me”

response "family and freinds make things complicated"

“Separation is the only way I could possibly think differently about you”

response "I think it is best if you move out."

“It’s time for me to be selfish”

response "that is your choice."

“Don’t touch me”

response "I have no intention on touching you"

“I’m not attracted to you”

response "I wouldn't be attracted to me either if I were you."

“I don’t even like the way you smell”

response "Thanks for sharing."

“I feel trapped, like you’re backing me into a corner”

response "I can understand how you feel trapped."

“Stop being noble by trying to hold on”

resposne "How do you see me doing that?"

“I don’t have regret over the OM, so I don’t care if you heal”

response "I understand you feel that way"

“Don’t trust me!”

“It’s too late, I have no feelings left for you to try and continue”

response "Yes, It is too late. I wish we would have tried before it got to this point"

“I can’t give you what you want”

resposne "I am sorry you feel that way."

“I don’t need you”

response "I understand."

“I want a divorce”

response "I see many solutions to our problems. If D is the only way for you to be happy, I will not stand in you way."

“I’m going to call a lawyer to discuss my options”

response "Perfect"

“I’ll just have to fake it”

response "perfect"

“I’m not getting any younger and feel like I’m missing out on life”

response "I understand. hopefully you can live an exciting life"

“My mother died young and I don’t know how much time I have left”

response "I wish she was still alive"

“It’s not you, I’m broken”

response "It's OK. We are all broken"

“Separation doesn’t mean it’s necessarily over for us”

response "When we separate, I believe it is best that we move on and not look back"

“I just don’t feel it right now, I’m wasting time, I’m convinced those feelings won’t return.”

response "I don't think those feeligns will return either. We both have some hard decisions to make."

“I promise not to see OM, but will not break off all contact with him”

response "That does not work for me."

“My skin crawls and anxiety skyrockets around you”

response "I understand that. I think it is best if we stop interacting"

“I feel nothing for you, I’m not angry, I’m just indifferent”

response "I know."

“I don’t have any love left for you”

response "I understand."

“I don’t know what to do, I’m so confused”

response "I know, It is OK to be confused."

“I deleted everything associated with OM from my phone”

response "thanks for sharing"

“I might be a bad person, but I don’t intentionally try to hurt people”

response "I know"

“A smart girl always has a backup plan”

response "That is one of the things I admire about you"

“I want my freedom, I don’t want to have to answer to anyone”

response "I understand."

“I just want to be single”

response "I understand. Being married is a lot of work"

“Just let me go”

response " response "You are free to do what you want"

“I can’t see the forest for the trees”

“Let’s not get ahead of ourselves”

response "Sounds like a good idea"

“Our marriage is only legal and doesn’t mean anything”

response "I can see why you feel this way. I wish it would have been different"

“I am moving out and have no intentions of coming back”

response "Perfect. Would you like help packing?"

“You didn’t treat me right and didn’t make me feel loved”

response "That must have been hard. I am sorry."

“I don’t think I ever loved you”

response "I believe you. It's OK. I understand"

“I know what I’m doing is unethical and immoral, but you are the cause”

response " I am sorry you feel that way. I don't control your actions."

“This is who I really am”

response "I know"

[curtis7]

R2C, wow!! Masterful craftsmanship on the validation. I recall only responding with something similar on a handful of those.

[curtis7]

Spring break week with my kids is winding down. We had a real nice beach outing, my W texted when we were there asking which beach we went to and to send pics. I waited a couple hours to respond and sent her a few of the kids.

I went to NCAA basketball yesterday with some good friends and enjoyed the time away.

Came home early this afternoon to find her texting away with various OM again for a few hours. Tried to ignore as best I could by spending time with the kids and working on projects around the house.

Getting close to her separation house closing now on April 1. At least when she moves out her repeated betrayals won’t be so blatant right in front of me.

[MrBrside]

I sympathise with you Curtis.

My WW is just the same. She denies there being OM, but grins when she says it. He is just a friend lol..

She spent the night there last night and left me with the children. There was no point in her coming back today, as she is so tired ( assume a night of new relationship passion ) - just ignored the children and fell asleep on the sofa.. Sandi hits the nail on the head when she states that WW are just selfish.. My WW moves into her new house next weekend, so one week left for me.. Then i really can focus on me and my children.. Biggest worry is how she will ignore the children when she has them

[Adam04]

Curtis,

Sorry to hear about your W openness with the texting to OM. Focus on your own happiness and being there for the kids. I hear the more blatant the WW is, the easier it makes the LBS detach. People can get so hung up on trying to save the MR that their focus is on the WAS. I think those blatant actions kinda forces you to rethink where to put that focus.

Remember, you're the rock, the sane, civil one right now. Don't let her actions dictate your happiness.

@R2C, thanks pointing out Coach's words and taking Curtis's list of W phrases and spinning it for the better. Really appreciate you and all that you do to help here.

[curtis7]

Biggest worry is how she will ignore the children when she has them

Helpme, I read your sitch and not surprisingly we have experienced much of the same behavior from our WWs. It also seems we are on similar timelines with W moving out. While not all the time, I have watched her ignore the kids (plop then in front of the TV for the day) increasingly over the past few months as her smartphone addiction and fantasy life has ramped up.

These are the times when the LBS must pickup the slack in parenting and prioritize our kids. You can do it, they are most important right now and deserve our time and attention.

[curtis7]

I hear the more blatant the WW is, the easier it makes the LBS detach. People can get so hung up on trying to save the MR that their focus is on the WAS. I think those blatant actions kinda forces you to rethink where to put that focus.

Adam, I think this is true in my case. When you see and know what’s going on right in front of your eyes, you realize just how wayward they are. It sort of grounds your expectations and hope when any small signs of improvement are noticed since her words and actions are likely not genuine when she is still engaged in that type of activity. So, from that POV, detachment becomes easier.

[Ready2Change]

@R2C, thanks pointing out Coach's words and taking Curtis's list of W phrases and spinning it for the better. Really appreciate you and all that you do to help here.

My pleasure. I always assume someone can benefit. We never know who is reading. My job was easier since curtis put them all in one spot. I know there may be better responses, but it give people an idea of different ways to respond.

[curtis7]

Removing her from the MB and packing her stuff for her shows her that you know what is going on and you are not going to sit back and accept that your W is sleeping with other men.

I wanted to thank everyone for the help and guidance so far, the support has been incredible.

I have a question on possible consequences for crossing the boundary in my sitch. Since my W is moving out in just over a week, keeping her out of the MBR is going away. What other types of consequences could I consider if she continues to engage in EA/PAs with the OM during the physical separation?

[LH19]

C,

Unfortunately with her moving out there is really only one consequence left. Filing for divorce. I am guessing you’re not ready for that. The only thing you can do right now is to take the focus off your wife and put the focus on you and your children. Eat right, excercise and start to think about the kind of life you want for you and your children.

Stay strong my friend.

[curtis7]

Unfortunately with her moving out there is really only one consequence left. Filing for divorce. I am guessing you’re not ready for that.

Certainly the thought has crossed my mind, but the love of my kids and what D could do to them prevents me from taking that step.

What are thoughts on establishing a post-nuptial agreement that spells out how assets will be divided? Could be a wake up call, but makes D fairly straightforward once in place.

[AnotherStander]

I have a question on possible consequences for crossing the boundary in my sitch. Since my W is moving out in just over a week, keeping her out of the MBR is going away. What other types of consequences could I consider if she continues to engage in EA/PAs with the OM during the physical separation?

As LH said, D is about it. But she wants that anyway, so if you "threaten" her with that she's likely to be very pleased about it as it paves the way for you doing all the work for her. Then she can not only do nothing but she can also tell everyone that you were the bad guy that pushed D through while she tried to give it time. Here's the bottom line Curtis- the whole reason she's moving out is to engage in a PA. WAS's don't move out to work on the M. She's going to do it and there's nothing you can do about it, because in her eyes you're already D'd.

What are thoughts on establishing a post-nuptial agreement that spells out how assets will be divided? Could be a wake up call, but makes D fairly straightforward once in place.

You've got to quit thinking in terms of "If I do X, Y or Z will that wake her up?" There is no waking her up. Nothing you do will have that sort of impact on her. All you can do is give her time and space.

I know this is all very painful to go through Curtis but there is no shortcut or workaround. She's got to leave, she's got to have her fling or flings and you've got to work on yourself and work on dropping that rope and letting her do what she's going to do.

[SteveLW]

I have a question on possible consequences for crossing the boundary in my sitch. Since my W is moving out in just over a week, keeping her out of the MBR is going away. What other types of consequences could I consider if she continues to engage in EA/PAs with the OM during the physical separation?

As LH said, D is about it. But she wants that anyway, so if you "threaten" her with that she's likely to be very pleased about it as it paves the way for you doing all the work for her. Then she can not only do nothing but she can also tell everyone that you were the bad guy that pushed D through while she tried to give it time. Here's the bottom line Curtis- the whole reason she's moving out is to engage in a PA. WAS's don't move out to work on the M. She's going to do it and there's nothing you can do about it, because in her eyes you're already D'd.

What are thoughts on establishing a post-nuptial agreement that spells out how assets will be divided? Could be a wake up call, but makes D fairly straightforward once in place.

You've got to quit thinking in terms of "If I do X, Y or Z will that wake her up?" There is no waking her up. Nothing you do will have that sort of impact on her. All you can do is give her time and space.

I know this is all very painful to go through Curtis but there is no shortcut or workaround. She's got to leave, she's got to have her fling or flings and you've got to work on yourself and work on dropping that rope and letting her do what she's going to do.

Curtis, listen to LH and AS here. So many LBSs take an action because they think acting is better than not acting. It is not. WASs are notoriously lazy. Even the ones that take the initiative and file for D, or schedule a mediator, most of the time will not take the next step. Many people have seen their spouses takes these steps and never push it forward. We have a long running narrative that D usually only really happens when the LBS finally gets feed up and pursues D.

Your best play here is to sit back and wait. It is against the sensibilities of many LBHs, but view it less about your anguish and more about the gift of time. The LBSs that struggle the most are those that think they need to do something besides GAL, detachment, and 180s.

[curtis7]

LH, AS, Steve, thanks for the feedback and reassurances. A cheating W is the most severe pain I’ve ever felt. It’s human nature to try and do things that move us away from that pain. I can see how the LBS can get fed up over time and reach their breaking point. I’m not there. I want to wait and see how the separation goes when she moves out and how it is affecting my kids.

It’s so confusing to me that the WW can carry on a double life in front of me, does she think I don’t know what is going on? She is nice and cordial, laughs at things I say to the kids one minute, then dives into fantasyland on her phone the next minute. Last night she came into the master bath when I was getting and she felt the need to tell me a joke from the Amazon Alexa device. I guess she still has a need to balance reality with La La Land and maintain contact someone in person.

I’m struggling with understanding how to interact with her during these times. Should I be looking for opportunities for positive interaction or simply remove myself from the equation for the time being and make myself as scarce as possible?

[LH19]

C,

Her moving out is going to give you some time and space to think about what you want the rest of your life to look like. I also want you to get into the mindset that your sitch will probably not completely play out for many years.

I also want you to know that a D will not necessarily destroy your kids lives. That is mainly going to depend on how you and your W treat and act around one another. The people on this board who have good relationships with their exs the kids are doing well.

Right now you feel powerless in your sitch but that will change I promise you.

[SteveLW]

LH, AS, Steve, thanks for the feedback and reassurances. A cheating W is the most severe pain I’ve ever felt. It’s human nature to try and do things that move us away from that pain. I can see how the LBS can get fed up over time and reach their breaking point. I’m not there. I want to wait and see how the separation goes when she moves out and how it is affecting my kids.

It’s so confusing to me that the WW can carry on a double life in front of me, does she think I don’t know what is going on? She is nice and cordial, laughs at things I say to the kids one minute, then dives into fantasyland on her phone the next minute. Last night she came into the master bath when I was getting and she felt the need to tell me a joke from the Amazon Alexa device. I guess she still has a need to balance reality with La La Land and maintain contact someone in person.

I’m struggling with understanding how to interact with her during these times. Should I be looking for opportunities for positive interaction or simply remove myself from the equation for the time being and make myself as scarce as possible?

Do not look for opportunities, but do not shy away from them when they arise. But yes, making yourself as scarce as possible is important.

I struggle with the confronting piece of a cheating WW. Like I said, I've read things that suggest that the cheating W loses respect for a LBH she is "fooling" with her affair. So while it isn't strictly DBing, I would be upfront about what you know WITH one huge caveat. Only when you are ready to kick her to the curb! You just said you weren't there yet. But confronting with no consequence is weak and not worthy of respect either.

In my sitch, as I got better at detaching, she left to drop my daughter off at school one day and didn't come back for almost an hour (D's school was < 10 mins one way). When she came home later that morning she was fully of reasons why she took so long. I looked her in the eye and said: "I am not stupid." Coupled with my detaching which I was doing better and better, she realized that staying out longer to contact EA P was transparent too me. And the consequence was that I going to finally tell her shape up or ship out. But you have to be ready with the latter for the former to have any teeth.

[gzabetas]

LH, AS, Steve, thanks for the feedback and reassurances. A cheating W is the most severe pain I’ve ever felt. It’s human nature to try and do things that move us away from that pain. I can see how the LBS can get fed up over time and reach their breaking point. I’m not there. I want to wait and see how the separation goes when she moves out and how it is affecting my kids.

It’s so confusing to me that the WW can carry on a double life in front of me, does she think I don’t know what is going on? She is nice and cordial, laughs at things I say to the kids one minute, then dives into fantasyland on her phone the next minute. Last night she came into the master bath when I was getting and she felt the need to tell me a joke from the Amazon Alexa device. I guess she still has a need to balance reality with La La Land and maintain contact someone in person.

I’m struggling with understanding how to interact with her during these times. Should I be looking for opportunities for positive interaction or simply remove myself from the equation for the time being and make myself as scarce as possible?

Curtis, I have the same problem. I also dont know how to behave in those moments when she wants to be my friend again and share a joke...and then the phone rings, she hides it in her palm and goes running to the next room.
This is so straining on our psyche I agree.

[Ready2Change]

I guess she still has a need to balance reality with La La Land

You are allowing her to disrespect you. That is not attractive. A woman needs to respect a man before she is attracted to him.


Look, this all gets so complicated when there are children involved.

It is not the divorce that will negatively affect them. It is the way their parents behave.


You can only control your behavior. You can be a roll model on how to be resilient.

[curtis7]

Apparently I have to sign some documents at the closing for W’s separation house. I haven’t seen them but I think they are just to acknowledge that I’m aware because we are married.

W texts: “You have to sign papers on Monday. Please let me know what time you would be a available. You can go in before me and sign but it has to be before or during on same day.“

Haven’t responded, but I want to review the docs in advance. Any recommendations?

[Ready2Change]

W texts: “You have to sign papers on Monday. Please let me know what time you would be a available. You can go in before me and sign but it has to be before or during on same day.“

Haven’t responded, but I want to review the docs in advance. Any recommendations?

H:"W, I want to understand what I am signing. Please send me a copy of the docs so I can review them tomorrow"

[curtis7]

H:"W, I want to understand what I am signing. Please send me a copy of the docs so I can review them tomorrow"

Been a few days since I’ve posted, been busy with GAL, coaching baseball, and giving W space and distance while home. I’ve had minimal communication with her, mostly small talk here and there and complete avoidance once kids go to sleep.

Here was the response to the doc request:
W: “I don't have a copy!”
W: “I will ask though”
H: No reply

Still haven’t received any docs to review.

New text from W: “Asked the kids and they want to sleep in same room. I found some cheap bunk beds. Wondered if I could go pick it up tonight? Probably will make them most comfortable for now if they can be together.”

I’m really struggling with this, a huge feeling of loss came over me when imagining a future where my kids are not in the same house. The other thing that bothers me is that she is talking to the kids about these arrangements without involving me.

[LH19]

C,

Have you had the talk with the kids?

[curtis7]

C,
Have you had the talk with the kids?

Nope, my S8 senses things are off. He and I pray sometimes that our family stays together. I have not told them that she plans to move out.

[LH19]

I would let her know that is not acceptable to you to discuss with the kids about her moving out when you haven't both sat down and discussed it with them first.

[curtis7]

so she could just be open about what she is doing with other men and stop having to hide it.

When you are ready and the opportunity presents itself, flip her words back:

H:"W,The other day, you asked me to be honest with, and I was. I would like you to be open and honest with me. Will you do that?"
W"Bla bla bla bla OK?? bla bla"

Can you handle the truth? Can you listen to W without judgment? Can you validate (IE let her know you hear what she is saying without judging her).

Will it do any good? I do not know. Will it gain you respect? I do not know.

I followed R2C’s recommendation and said “W, the other day, you asked me to be honest with you about whether I was on a date and I was. I would like you to be open and honest with me. Will you do that?”

W said okay and I asked her if she was interacting with other men. I told her I’m not going to judge and that I just want to understand. She said not sexting like she was before, but there are a few that keep contacting her from the dating app and won’t leave her alone. She said the relationship with 25 year old OM1 is completely over.

I validated her and she started to go into how she thought I was a loose cannon and didn’t know what I was going to do next. She referenced the cryptic messages where I’m vague on my whereabouts when I’m out GAL. She said it’s manipulative and thinks I could be stalking her or having her followed. She said I ruined her night (the one where she had the hotel reserved), when I asked her to take the kids with her to divorced BFF’s. She said she was very upset with the girls that night and was ready to contact a L, but didn’t follow through.

She went on to say that she wants her freedom to do whatever she wants whenever she wants. I validated by saying I know. It seems like W and I are both in a similar state of mind continuously wondering what the other is going to do next.

[curtis7]

I would let her know that is not acceptable to you to discuss with the kids about her moving out when you haven't both sat down and discussed it with them first.

I told W I haven’t received the closing docs to review yet, and she said she hasn’t either. I asked about the parenting arrangement with the kids since she will be moving out this week. She said she would like the kids to stay with her a few nights a week. I said this was different from what we had discussed in January where the kids would stay in our marital home with me during the week and with her every other weekend. She said this was at the recommendation of the MC we saw a month ago that said the kids would be confused by her going away. She was visibly emotional when talking about not seeing the kids in the morning and her eyes were slightly watery. I validated and said I wish things are different and she agreed.

I told her I wish we would have discussed the parenting arrangement and schedule in advance before she talked to the kids. She acknowledged there’s not going to be much for the kids over there for a few weeks. No TV, internet, limited furniture. I asked who she was going to inform about the separation such as family and friends. She said several of them recommended she talk to a L, but she hasn’t yet because she said that would make all of this more complicated right now and she wants to give this a chance to figure out how she feels. She said that would be more than weeks and couldn’t really say how long that would be, she said maybe 6 months, she doesn’t want to put a deadline on it. I continued to validate and said yes, we both need time and did not offer alternatives or pass judgment.

She said she’s waiting for my claws to come out and drop legal documents on her. She has been been told by several people to get everything out of the house that she wants before she leaves. She told them she’s not going to do that right now and wants to try this her way.

[SteveLW]

curtis, sorry man. I know this is all rough. Hang in there.

I can't remember, did you talk to a lawyer yet? I always advise LBSs to at least have a consult with a lawyer as early as possible. I think sometimes that can help snap the WAS to reality. Most WAS, and certainly WSs, feel that their S and D can just be done smoothly and without roadblocks. They have this kind of glamorized view of S and D. I think you are seeing that in your WAW's behavior related to the kids. It is all rainbows and unicorns and they can just change things on a whim.

My WW had this crazy idea that we could spend $200 and file online and bam, we'd be divorced, with all custody of our daughter settled. I immediately told her I was skeptical of that plan, and that I could see that if we didn't have kids. In my snooping that followed I saw she had done searches on steps for divorce in our state, and it was a 11 step process when kids were involved depending on how mediation went, with multiple court dates for judgments on our "agreements". Etc.

I then told her that her plan that I would keep the house, D and I would live there, with my W floating in and out with her own apartment, and playing "house" when it suited her, wasn't going to work for me. (It was clear to me she wanted to be free to date and sleep with whomever she wanted, but still have a family to "come home" to. I said I would be selling the house, splitting the equity (after paying off debt (we don't have much, but car loans etc)) and then I would be moving in with a friend of mine. We'd have joint custody, and depending on the job she landed, I'd be paying child support. All of that started to pop her "unicorns and rainbows" delusion, and hit her in the guilt department. When she protested I flat-out told her "It is no fair for you to think you could get a fresh start, but not expect the same for me."

All of that went a long way towards breaking her delusion related to how simple all of this was going to be. How non-disruptive it would be for everyone, and that the path to her new life was greased and an easy ride.

But the last thing that burst her bubble was the fact that I consulted a lawyer. I still remember the morning I told her that. She looked like she had been slapped. Please take my sitch with a huge grain of salt because its turnaround was so atypically quick, but I really that that last piece (talking to a lawyer) was the catalyst. Along with my 180s, GAL, and detachment, she started to come back to the marriage. The fact that I was taking a lead on the D made it too real for her. My W was at the point where the idea of the single life was appealing, but she was trying to get there as problem-free as possible. She wanted a magic-wand to wave to put her in the perfect position with all of the gnarly, thorny parts smoothed over. When the reality that it was going to be hard, bloody, with multiple court visits, and now "he has a lawyer!!", all hit her, it started to wake her up.

Wow, that got wordy. The short version is that if you had consulted an attorney, when she talked about a lawyer if you could have said "I already spoke to a lawyer and highly advise you to do so too. Not because I am going to get my "claws out and drop legal documents on you", but because we have to make sure everything is done appropriately, legally and so that the court dates, which will be necessary, go as smoothly as possible. Maybe this apparent "unicorns and rainbows" view of S and D that she has would start to be replaced by the reality of what the process really entails.

[Bo562]

My WW had this crazy idea that we could spend $200 and file online and bam, we'd be divorced, with all custody of our daughter settled.

My W talked about how we could be divorced for like $750 or so, just by filing some paperwork, and her parenting plan would have the force of a legal document. That was a couple of months ago.

I’ve let her do most of the ‘dirty work’ about this, and then she gave me papers. I have consulted with a L previously, but now she and I have both retained L’s, and this past weekend when she blew up at me she wants to keep things out of the courts as much as possible.

Steve—it IS like a script, sometimes, even literal same playbook.

Curtis—I’m sorry dude, but it will get better.

[curtis7]

Steve, I did talk to a L a few months ago when W initially shared her desire to buy a house. We primarily discussed my liability to that property and marital rights and didn’t get too much into the parenting arrangement. I’m comfortable with what’s going on right now, but will monitor how her actions play out closely with the kids to decide whether I should re-engage the L.

My W doesn’t know I spoke with a L. Ideally, I would like to wait a few months before letting her know about L involvement. This gives her the time and space she feels she needs to experience her freedom, but also gives her a dose of reality while I work on improving myself and transforming further into H only a fool would leave. The gift of time.

I’m actually feeling pretty good today, about to head to the closing to find out what they are asking me to sign. Moving out is what she wants and I have not stood in her way thus far. As much as I think it will be more difficult for her to see my 180s and GAL when she’s out, I was getting extremely sick and tired of seeing her text and troll for OM right in front of me. Living with someone that is blatantly and actively betraying your MR tears you apart when you aren’t fully detached.

It’s too bad this wasn’t all part of some elaborate April fools joke, lol.

Any recommendations on what to say to W at the closing? I was thinking:
“Enjoy”
“Congrats, our first foray into being slum lords.” (W and I discussed this becoming a rental property if we R)
“I hope you find happiness”

[Bo562]

If anything, I would say the 3rd one.

I wouldn’t do sarcasm. Okay to feel it on the inside, but it’s good to conduct self with relative class.

[SteveLW]

Don't say anything.

[Ready2Change]

Don't say anything.

[curtis7]

Don't say anything.

Don't say anything.

The deed is done. I exchanged some pleasantries with her realtor, signed two inconsequential documents along with a set of initials. I didn’t say anything to WW except when leaving to decide who was picking up the kids.

Now she is free to go off and explore her wildest fantasies that I’ve held her back from during all these years of misery.

And so begins the next chapter in our saga...

[AnotherStander]

And so begins the next chapter in our saga...

Not "our", this is all about you now. Let her live a saga while you live a life of incredible awesomeness.

[curtis7]

Not "our", this is all about you now. Let her live a saga while you live a life of incredible awesomeness.

AS, good correction. This is my time to reclaim who I am and the man I want to be going forward.

I appreciate the encouragement. I have noticed over the past few months that the small close circle that I have shared some of details of my sitch with have quickly offered suggestions to give up on my MR due to W’s behavior. Honestly, while I know they just want to make me feel better, it doesn’t align with my ultimate goal of R. These POVs are probably not much different than the influences W was following when deciding to BD, IHS, and now physically S. Definitely the biased shoulders. My W has made comments that several have told her to walk away as well although she has zero interest in R right now.

I find that reassurance from members here as well as my inner circle are extremely helpful in giving me strength and supporting my belief to continue standing.

[SteveLW]

Not "our", this is all about you now. Let her live a saga while you live a life of incredible awesomeness.

AS, good correction. This is my time to reclaim who I am and the man I want to be going forward.

I appreciate the encouragement. I have noticed over the past few months that the small close circle that I have shared some of details of my sitch with have quickly offered suggestions to give up on my MR due to W’s behavior. Honestly, while I know they just want to make me feel better, it doesn’t align with my ultimate goal of R. These POVs are probably not much different than the influences W was following when deciding to BD, IHS, and now physically S. Definitely the biased shoulders. My W has made comments that several have told her to walk away as well although she has zero interest in R right now.

I find that reassurance from members here as well as my inner circle are extremely helpful in giving me strength and supporting my belief to continue standing.

One thing I've learned following these sitches is no one is more committed to trying to save the MR than the LBS.

However, remember, believe nothing they say. My W had a way of twisting other people's words to fit her narrative. If someone told her "You should work as hard as you can to save your marriage, unless there are lines crossed that you just can't forgive."

Her version would be: "So-and-so said I shouldn't work to save the marriage because you are mean and controlling and those are lines you crossed that I just can't forgive."

Notice how she focused like a laser on the piece she wanted to her, and completely ignored the part she should have paid heed to, and even completely ignored the spirit of the advice! That is a mindset of a WW. So while there are no doubt people that told her that, based on her trumped up, overblown version of the state of the MR, there were also no doubt people that told her she should try to save her MR but she wasn't listening, or heard what she wanted to hear.

[curtis7]

However, remember, believe nothing they say. My W had a way of twisting other people's words to fit her narrative. If someone told her "You should work as hard as you can to save your marriage, unless there are lines crossed that you just can't forgive."

Her version would be: "So-and-so said I shouldn't work to save the marriage because you are mean and controlling and those are lines you crossed that I just can't forgive."

Notice how she focused like a laser on the piece she wanted to her, and completely ignored the part she should have paid heed to, and even completely ignored the spirit of the advice! That is a mindset of a WW. So while there are no doubt people that told her that, based on her trumped up, overblown version of the state of the MR, there were also no doubt people that told her she should try to save her MR but she wasn't listening, or heard what she wanted to hear.

Steve, believing nothing they say is the golden rule when dealing with a WW. It’s sad to say but I can validate, make that verify, that on almost a daily basis.

I followed R2C’s recommendation and said “W, the other day, you asked me to be honest with you about whether I was on a date and I was. I would like you to be open and honest with me. Will you do that?”

W said okay and I asked her if she was interacting with other men. I told her I’m not going to judge and that I just want to understand. She said not sexting like she was before, but there are a few that keep contacting her from the dating app and won’t leave her alone. She said the relationship with 25 year old OM1 is completely over.

Case in point, she doesn’t seem to be engaging in the full blown back and forth sexting to the absolute extreme of describing the erotic details. But, she is heavily flirting and telling OM2 how bad she wants him and to be with him along with exchanging partially nude photos. Oh, and OM1 is texting her again too.

Half truths and lies are the norm. I have no doubt she is ready for all out GGW when she moves out tonight or tomorrow into the separation house. The feedback I’ve received about W’s move out to have sex with OM couldn’t be more true.

The question remains how long the LBH is willing to wait in limbo to see if she starts to come out of the fog. Steve, I know you recommend a year of DB. Don’t know if I can make it that long. Nevertheless, I’m not going to waste my life sitting around for the time I do stand. I am GAL and making my life great without her.

I was curious if anyone can recommend some sitches to read of WW that have moved out and in active PA’s that R? I could really use some success stories to give me hope.

[curtis7]

She said the relationship with 25 year old OM1 is completely over.

But, she is heavily flirting and telling OM2 how bad she wants him and to be with him along with exchanging partially nude photos. Oh, and OM1 is texting her again too.

I seriously believe many of these sitches could be made into Hollywood movies, fantasies and/or tradgedies, maybe even comedies.

Here is a snippet of her latest exchange with OM1 today:
OM1: “You still getting divorced?”
W: “Yep”
OM1: “At your own place yet?”
W: “Moving tonight and tomorrow”
OM1: “You wanna keep hooking up or you good?”
W: “Yeah, I do!”
W: “But busy week and bad timing. Monthly visitor is here. F’n annoying.”

And yesterday with OM2:
OM2: “I want to make it very hard for you to want another man, even if for a night. Say...you go out with your girlfriends and you meet a guy.”
W: “It is already. I want you...here. Now. Wish I wasn’t frickin bleeding.”

She also had a screenshot from another guy 5 years younger than her on the dating app, his catch phrase states: “Looking for a sugar baby type of thing”

My WW is so far gone. The more I see these types of things, the easier it is to detach. I’m starting to understand what it feels like to allow this stuff to roll off my back like water off a duck.

I’m almost NC with her now, kids only. I’ve been hitting the gym hard and took the kids to volleyball tonight. As I was leaving the house with them, the instigator, divorced BFF was pulling in and had her car loaded with empty bins to help her move. BFF must be ecstatic to gain another WW to placate some of her misery of being divorced.

[gzabetas]

curtis those text messages sound brutal.
glad that you are making it roll off your back.
gives me a glimpse of what i can expect my WW did as well. I never got a chance to see any. she guarded that phone with her life. but i walked in on her once when she was having phone sex with an OM !!! She admitted it.

In my wife's depression i made the mistake of signing her up at a gym per the psychologist recommendation.
i paid for both (IC and gym memnership) for 2 years.
The gym was my waterloo. She had every guy hitting on her. At the time I thought she was the faithful beautiful soul I had married. But she went WW within weeks. Per the disconveries I am making now, and her recent confessions to me.
I wish I had never signed her up.

Our lawyer appointment is tomorrow to start paperwork on D so we are on similar timelines.

I too will be entering new uncharted territory.

[ovrrnbw]

How, and more importantly why, are you reading her texts? You've already verified she's unfaithful. Any reason to subject yourself to this? I think it's probably bleeding over into other parts of your life. I hope you change your focus onto your life, work, kids.

[IHCLACS]

I would have definitely been in jail for assault and battery, and destruction of property in your circumstances. I'm not the jealous type anymore as I've been cheated on in the past. But you're right you have to save your composure for your children if you have them, preserve your own self-worth and morals, and just allow the to low lives to keep sinking lower, and you take The High Ground.

I hope to God you find some type of healthy release for this, and build yourself back up and detach.

[AnotherStander]

How, and more importantly why, are you reading her texts? You've already verified she's unfaithful. Any reason to subject yourself to this? I think it's probably bleeding over into other parts of your life. I hope you change your focus onto your life, work, kids.

Exactly what I was going to say. Curtis, you know the situation. Quit snooping. Leave her to the mess she's making and focus on you. She's straight out of a Girls Gone Wild movie. It's not going to change anytime soon, she has to fall and fall hard.

[curtis7]

gives me a glimpse of what i can expect my WW did as well. I never got a chance to see any. she guarded that phone with her life. but i walked in on her once when she was having phone sex with an OM !!! She admitted it.

I haven’t touched her phone since the end of February when I also walked in on her phone sex with an OM and took the phone out of her hand. After that blowup, she said she would break my fingers if I ever touched her phone again. A boundary she set.

i paid for both (IC and gym memnership) for 2 years.
I wish I had never signed her up.

I wish I never went to MC with my W earlier this year. We only went to 2 sessions, first was joint, second was individual. C gave her some bad ideas about separation and co-parenting arrangement in her individual session that she is running with and blaming me for criticizing because I was the one that wanted to try the therapy.

Our lawyer appointment is tomorrow to start paperwork on D so we are on similar timelines.

I could be wrong, but I don’t foresee my W taking legal action on the D in the near term. I think she wants to continue cake eating and is spewing lies to me and the OM to keep them interested and fulfill all of her selfish desires.

[curtis7]

I would have definitely been in jail for assault and battery, and destruction of property in your circumstances. I'm not the jealous type anymore as I've been cheated on in the past. But you're right you have to save your composure for your children if you have them, preserve your own self-worth and morals, and just allow the to low lives to keep sinking lower, and you take The High Ground.

I hope to God you find some type of healthy release for this, and build yourself back up and detach.

I never knew what type of rage was in me until I discovered the first PA with OM 4 months ago. Physically harming her never crossed my mind, but I was on the verge of property damage wanting to smash her phone. I regained my composure and made it through over the next couple days.

Each discovery of subsequent betrayals have had a progressively less of an emotional effect on me. I think the betrayed LBS starts to develop a numbness to WWs actions to not allow them to continue to hurt us.

I’ve read some articles about PTSD symptoms associated with an affair. I feel that I suffered from this condition for 4 months from BD in November through the end of February. I’m doing much better over the past 5 weeks. I recommend a google search on PTSD affair for others that are experiencing infidelity with their WW.

[SteveLW]

curtis let me remind you of where my WW was. I initiated BD on 12/23/2017 by confronting her on her EA. Immediately she wanted a D. Said she was going to get a job, get an apartment, and D me.

I start working on 180s, GAL and detachment on 12/26, drawing on my knowledge from the 2005 EA.

The next week she starts talking about reconciliation. "I wasn't going to say anything until after the New Year because I am not sure."

Later that week she asks me for help with some work she was doing for her business. I've always been kind of a silent partner and investor in her business. So I help her out. She is very appreciative. (I made it a priority, if you've ever seen War of the Roses, him not taking her business seriously was a big part of her wanting out of the marriage.)

She continues to flip flop between moving forward with her job, apartment, D plan, and with making future plans for us as a family. I am struggling with detachment because just when I start to do it decently, she starts saying and doing things to try to reattach me. This continues through the New Year and the first week of January. On the night of January 4th, she gets up from watching TV, and goes into the guest bathroom, she is in there for over 2 hours. This is a woman that never spent more than 10 minutes normally.

I was very suspect of what was happening in the bathroom that night. It wasn't until a few weeks later that I came across the nude photos she had snapped in the guest bathroom that night for EA OM.

We were in full reconciliation by April of 2018. Now yes there are differences in that her EAPs (OM and potential OM2) were both several states away, so they were long distance EAs. But the point is that just because she is still wayward doesn't mean she can't come out of in 6 monhts, a year, or even 2 years from now. The question you have to ask yourself is are you willing to be Plan B or C until that happens?

[IHCLACS]

Curtis 7. The part about MC really gets my goat because. I was asked about joint MC in Oct of 2017, but couldn't, wasn't ready, and refused because I not only didn't realize at the time how bad things were, but also I was working a few states away staying on my project until early that Nov , and had to get the bills paid. W complained that she was always alone with S1, but this is literally just around the time she started mentioning she wants space. She then went to counseling on her own and still continuing to do so. I have not even been to counseling yet. Or invited to. She might be dropping the MC and she's going to a regular LSCW. What gets my goat is from my understanding a lot of MC are so neutral and non pro marriage, and so pro seperation that most of our WAS will run with it as a solution, since from my understanding most MCs aren't equipped to deal with changing dynamics the way DB and Michele Wiener Davis does.

[curtis7]

How, and more importantly why, are you reading her texts? You've already verified she's unfaithful. Any reason to subject yourself to this? I think it's probably bleeding over into other parts of your life. I hope you change your focus onto your life, work, kids.

Exactly what I was going to say. Curtis, you know the situation. Quit snooping. Leave her to the mess she's making and focus on you. She's straight out of a Girls Gone Wild movie. It's not going to change anytime soon, she has to fall and fall hard.

O & AS, regarding the how, let’s just say there are breadcrumbs out there in the cloud that provide an occasional snippet. I do not have full access and frankly couldn’t handle it based on the bits I’ve seen.

Regarding the why, I would say curiosity and trying to gain insight and prepare for what might be coming. Also, perhaps my form of temp checking to peak into whether WW is increasing or decreasing.

I’ve seen enough now to know she is all in on GGW. It is unhealthy to continue subjecting myself to this type of information. You’re right that the snooping doesn’t help. I’m going to piggyback on her separation move with committing to stop monitoring her proclivities. Out of sight, out of mind.

[curtis7]

We were in full reconciliation by April of 2018. Now yes there are differences in that her EAPs (OM and potential OM2) were both several states away, so they were long distance EAs. But the point is that just because she is still wayward doesn't mean she can't come out of in 6 monhts, a year, or even 2 years from now. The question you have to ask yourself is are you willing to be Plan B or C until that happens?

Steve, great question on how long I decide to remain the backup plan. Not a decision I want to come to until I feel the same way over an extended period of time, like weeks or a couple months. As most LBS here, I would give anything for a lightning fast turnaround that you achieved.

Last night was tough. I felt a tremendous sense of loneliness. W took the kids to stay at her house for the first time. My D4 was excited about the bunk beds over there, she doesn’t grasp what is going on and how her childhood is about to change. My S8 was a little more subdued, but he understands what’s happening and loves his mom so this will be difficult for him.

Our marital home is quite sizable and only 3 years old, it is a very nice place. Her separation house is much older and less than a 1/3 of the square footage but recently renovated. I think the kids are curious about exploring the new house, but I would think the novelty will wear off rather quickly over there.

W hasn’t taken much out of our house. She bought a bunch of used furniture. She also told me she bought a 55” TV and then made the comment if things work out for us, then it would be a good TV for the guest bedroom. I just validated (while recalling what she texted OM1 the other day about moving forward with D) and said it would be a good TV for that room.

Our marital house is too big for one adult and part time kids. I wanted to run an idea past the members here. I have a co-worker friend that is about my age and he is looking for a different place to rent. The thought crossed my mind to offer him the opportunity to move into my guest bedroom for a few months or until if she decided to work on the MR. Is this a bad idea considering the kids and my sitch with the W?

[SteveLW]

I am a big fan of Dr. Phil. Dr. Phil likes to quote the statistics of the likelihood that kids will suffer abuse when there is a non-family member adult living in the home. This is usually stated in terms of step parents, but the fact is that you probably do not know this guy as well as you think you do. I would advise against it for the sake of your kids' safety.

[AnotherStander]

Last night was tough. I felt a tremendous sense of loneliness. W took the kids to stay at her house for the first time.

Yes that is maybe the worst experience in S is being at home that first time with no W and no kids. It is very lonely for sure. Hang in there, it gets better with each passing day. When you have the kids back it will seem that much sweeter.

I think the kids are curious about exploring the new house, but I would think the novelty will wear off rather quickly over there.

I think a lot of LBS's put hope into the kids not being happy with the new place and griping to the WAS about it and maybe the WAS having a change of heart over it. It never happens, I have not heard of a single example of this in my time here. I'm not saying to give up hope but just don't place your hope in the wrong places. Nothing is going to "wake up" your W except time. A lot of time away from you.

She also told me she bought a 55” TV and then made the comment if things work out for us, then it would be a good TV for the guest bedroom. I just validated (while recalling what she texted OM1 the other day about moving forward with D) and said it would be a good TV for that room.

Please try to understand what validation is and isn't because there are a lot of misunderstandings here about it. You don't "validate" about a TV. That's just a mundane conversation that doesn't mean anything. Validation is seeking her emotions/ feelings about something and acknowledging that her feelings are legitimate whether you agree with them or not. So she says she doesn't love you, you validate. She says she's confused, you validate.

I have a co-worker friend that is about my age and he is looking for a different place to rent. The thought crossed my mind to offer him the opportunity to move into my guest bedroom for a few months or until if she decided to work on the MR. Is this a bad idea considering the kids and my sitch with the W?

I wouldn't do that right now. Wait until your situation settles down a bit before considering something like this. In addition to Steve's concerns, I would be concerned that your W would use it as ammo against you in D to get full custody of the kids.

[LH19]

C,

Please do not make any decisions based on the thought that your W might decide to work on the marriage. Unfortunately if this happens it will most likely be years down the road.

[curtis7]

Steve, AS, LH, thanks for the 2x4 on not bringing in a roommate.

I went to the gym last night to escape the emptiness of the house, then invited my neighbor over for a late night drink, which helped.

Looking forward to picking my kids up from school today and having a great night with them.

I was curious if anyone can recommend some sitches to read of WW that have moved out and in active PA’s that R? I could really use some success stories to give me hope.

I keep reading sitches of others to learn more on DBing along with what works and what doesn’t. I read JoeJoe1’s sitch and it was inspiring, any other recommended threads similar to mine?

[curtis7]

Had my kids back in the house last night. My D4 was whining and wanted to stay at mommy's new place because she liked the bunk beds and being able to eat dinner in the living room since she doesn't have a kitchen table yet. That hurt, but I know my D is too young to consider my feelings for what she says.

So, my W sent an email this morning with a proposed parenting plan for this month. Basically, starting tonight the overnight schedule would be:
W 2 nights, H 2 nights, W 3 nights
then
H 2 nights, W 2 nights, H 3 nights
etc

This results in rotating Friday and Saturday nights, then rotating Sunday-Monday, then rotating Tuesday-Thursday.

W plans to be at our marital house between 6-7pm each weeknight to ride and care for her horse and again at 10am on weekends. So, I think this means she plans to pick the kids up from school everyday as has been our normal routine.

W also noted that she doesn't want to leave care of our marital property solely on me. She offered to bring the vacuum to clean the floors and help with lawn care, etc. I'm not sure how I feel about this, I'm perfectly capable of managing the home, especially if I won't have the kids on a daily basis.

She commented that she wants both of us to see the kids every day when humanly possible. It's still unclear to me how this is all going to work. I don't know if she is planning to eat dinner as a family each week night and then take the kids to her place on her overnights. Lots of uncertainty here. She is open to suggestions and changes.

This is very weird, seems like she will be around me quite a bit. Is this a good thing during separation? I'm trying to distance myself and give her time and space. Should I make myself scarce when she's here? This all seems to be massive cake eating to me in that she can benefit from many of the perks of married life, then go off to participate in her active A's.

Any feedback and recommendations is appreciated. Thanks again to everyone for the support. This community has helped me detach tremendously from her words and actions affecting my spirits.

[Twofeet]

It's all about boundaries. You need to think about what your boundaries are and how you will enforce them. She sounds like she wants to cake eat, ie have her nice domesticated H and enjoying family life while her other life is being a GGW. If it was me I would start living life as if you were on your own. If you are S then be S, no family dinners. This might be brash, but you might even consider charging her rent to board her horse.

[neffer]

Hi Curtis, I´m neffer. This is my first time writing to you. I´m sorry and glad you are here...

Just take a step aside and figure if that routine is actually what you want. Don´t fall into her controlled environment. DB basics establish no contact except for the kids, detach and GAL. You need to show W what separation means. I completely agree with TF above. IMHO you are baking a big big cake there.

Stay strong there Curtis, keep your boundaries and stick to DB.

[Ready2Change]

So, my W sent an email this morning with a proposed parenting plan for this month. Basically, starting tonight the overnight schedule would be:
W 2 nights, H 2 nights, W 3 nights
then
H 2 nights, W 2 nights, H 3 nights
etc

This results in rotating Friday and Saturday nights, then rotating Sunday-Monday, then rotating Tuesday-Thursday.

Sounds like a 50/50 plan. I would agree to that.

W plans to be at our marital house between 6-7pm each weeknight to ride and care for her horse and again at 10am on weekends.

I would give her two choices that you are OK with. 1) Pay you board for the horse. Take the horse elsewhere. (Don't let her cake eat) She moved out. That means get all her stuff out of YOUR house.

So, I think this means she plans to pick the kids up from school everyday as has been our normal routine.

H"That doesn't work for me anymore. I will be picking up dropping off the kids during my parenting time."

W also noted that she doesn't want to leave care of our marital property solely on me. She offered to bring the vacuum to clean the floors and help with lawn care, etc. I'm not sure how I feel about this,

H"Thanks for the offer, I'm perfectly capable of managing MY HOUSE"

She commented that she wants both of us to see the kids every day when humanly possible. It's still unclear to me how this is all going to work. I don't know if she is planning to eat dinner as a family each week night and then take the kids to her place on her overnights. Lots of uncertainty here. She is open to suggestions and changes.

"H, I think it is best if we both get the time and space we need to heal."

Any feedback and recommendations is appreciated. Thanks again to everyone for the support. This community has helped me detach tremendously from her words and actions affecting my spirits.

let her "feel" the consequences of her choices. She moved out. She should miss "the family" she broke up. You parent during your time. She parents during her time.


I suggest setting an exchange time of 6p. (Or whatever time works for you). And who ever has this kids drops them at the other parents place. Pickup parent [censored] waiting around.Negotiating every time [censored]. School days, the exchange happens after school. Whoever's night it is picks the kids up.

[curtis7]

TF, neffer, & R2C,

Thanks for the responses. I just replied to her email mostly asking for clarification and buying more time.

I haven't commented on the horse situation yet. It's our property, but she is the one that made the choice to leave. The question is when should she start feeling the pain of that decision including access to the kids.

Answered this one a little softer than R2C advised: "Thanks for the offer, I'm perfectly capable of managing MY HOUSE"

I need some time to mull this over and decide on my boundaries. This is kind of a catch 22. If she's around on a daily basis, then she can see my 180s and GAL, but there's not much opportunity to create a void and miss me plus I'm baking a massive amount of cake. Rapidly approaching a serious tough love decision.

Hopefully, I'm getting better at validation, here was my reply:

"I can see that a schedule needs to be set for the kids for the reasons you noted. We should make sure they have time with both of us because they need that."

"Could you help me better understand the drop off and pick up plans? Are you saying that whoever does the overnight drops off at school and whoever has the overnight picks up from school?"

"I see where you're coming from on advanced notice for schedule changes that pop up."

"Tell me more about what you suggest on weekend days? Are you asking if we are still keeping them all day at the overnight house on the weekends?"

"It must have been a really hectic and stressful week for you with the move. It sounds like the kids are excited by the newness. I'll think about your offer to help take care of the property. I know that you will have a lot going on at your house the next few weeks and I am capable."

"I will need some more time to process the schedule."

[LH19]

C,

You can't use a soft approach on a stage 4 wayward like your wife. It makes you look weak.

Forget about validation with her right now. Practice on your children, friends and coworkers.

[curtis7]

Haven’t posted in a few days and am settling in to the separation and the parenting arrangement. Kids stayed at W’s house Friday and Saturday night. They were back with me Sunday and Monday. Now, they will be with her the next 3 nights. I have been able to see my kids everyday when W comes over to take care of her horse.

Saturday was 5 months post-BD. My S8 had a baseball game that morning. W brought the kids over before the game to get his gear. She just sat in her car in the driveway for 30 minutes texting away and didn’t come in the house. She continued to isolate herself at the game, sitting alone and glued to her phone.

After the game I watched the movie Fireproof and was amazed how it paralleled several experiences in my sitch. It had me teary eyed a few times as I could feel the pain of what he was going through. If only it was that easy to reconcile and we all could have a Hollywood ending. I do plan to check out the book referenced in the movie, but I gather the actions in the book are not easy to implement when separated.

On Saturday night, I went to a friend’s 40th birthday party. I had a blast with a fun group of people that care about me and even sang some karaoke (first time). My 40th is coming up at the end of May. A group of women (mom’s from S8’s baseball team that I coach) at the party offered to plan a get together for me to celebrate. I think I’ll take them up on the offer. Should I have them invite WW?

On Sunday morning, W brought kids over and she took her horse out for a ride. She told me how great her horse was coming along with her training when she returned. She also told me about how the landscaping at her new place was such a mess and that she had uprooted about 100 pineapples. All small talk, have avoided relationship talk altogether for well over a month now. I’m not interested in R while OM are in the picture.

I had two awesome days with my kids. We played some board games, went to volleyball, cleaned the house, and read books. Baseball practice was rained out yesterday and when I brought the kids home W was waiting in the garage while texting and hadn’t gone in the house. I guess she is trying to respect that it is my house now and she doesn’t want to intrude. She fed her horse, came back in the house and sat with D4 for 5 minutes. She asked if I needed any help getting dinner ready. I replied, no thanks I got it. She seemed annoyed, then said goodbye to the kids and left. D4 asked her why she had to go. My S8 told me he doesn’t really like it at her place and wishes he could stay at our house all the time and for mom to come home. I told him I want the same thing and hopefully someday so does mom. I wonder if she feels any remorse for tearing the family apart.

[IHCLACS]

Curtis7. W and I were given Fireproof when W were 1st married. 10 years ago. Great movie . I watch it frequently, and have read the Love Dare, and have tried implenenting it to no avail. I'm approaching 39 this year.
.

[LH19]

C,

Why would you want to invite your W who is sleeping with other men to your birthday party?

If you don’t stop the cake eating you are going to be in for a vey long painful period of limbo.

[job]

Please start a new thread and link your two threads together. Thanks!

[AnotherStander]

She just sat in her car in the driveway for 30 minutes texting away and didn’t come in the house. She continued to isolate herself at the game, sitting alone and glued to her phone.

That's pretty typical WAS behavior. My XW would lay in bed next to me texting away and eventually fall asleep with her phone in her hand. Looking back I am struck with how incredibly disrespectful that is. It changes with time. Whenever I'm around W now the phone is nowhere to be seen. For S's bday we did an escape room, dinner, arcade games and then presents and I never saw her phone once. But yes this is how it will be for a while.

After the game I watched the movie Fireproof and was amazed how it paralleled several experiences in my sitch. It had me teary eyed a few times as I could feel the pain of what he was going through. If only it was that easy to reconcile and we all could have a Hollywood ending. I do plan to check out the book referenced in the movie, but I gather the actions in the book are not easy to implement when separated.

Yes "Hollywood ending" is exactly what Fireproof is selling. Like most Hollywood endings it is selling false hope. You are quite right, you can't implement that program in a WAS situation. Like most of these "quick fixes" it has the best chance of working during the earliest signs of trouble. By the time you've been BD'd this kind of stuff does not work, it's just another form of pressure on the WAS at a time they want no pressure.

A group of women (mom’s from S8’s baseball team that I coach) at the party offered to plan a get together for me to celebrate. I think I’ll take them up on the offer. Should I have them invite WW?

No. It's OK to invite her to join you for the kids' bdays but not your own.

I wonder if she feels any remorse for tearing the family apart.

Yes she feels bad about it, but she feels justified because in her eyes it was YOU that caused this. She felt unloved and abandoned for so long that she felt this was the only way out for her. You've been unhappy since BD, but she's been unhappy far longer than that. Whether you agree with that or not you need to try and understand it, because that's how she feels and her feelings are everything to her. For you to blame her just seems like "more of the same behavior" to her.

[MrBrside]

Yes she feels bad about it, but she feels justified because in her eyes it was YOU that caused this. She felt unloved and abandoned for so long that she felt this was the only way out for her. You've been unhappy since BD, but she's been unhappy far longer than that. Whether you agree with that or not you need to try and understand it, because that's how she feels and her feelings are everything to her. For you to blame her just seems like "more of the same behavior" to her.

AnotherStaner,

My Situation was very similar to curtis's and i find this comment interesting...

This is definetly what my ex was saying about how i never saw how unhappy she was... It was first months, then that year (2018) , then years, then since my youngeat was born ( 7 years ago ) - so she has been unhappy for 7 years yet had 2 more children with me during that period...

From your experience, have the WAW been unhappy for "far longer than that". Or is that just the justification for their actions ?

Not trying to thread hijack, but my ex and me got on well - or i thought we did, but now the rose tinted specs i wore are gone, i see she was always happy when she got what she desired.. The rows we had occured when my rational brain tried to reason with her "i want it now mentality"... She would accuse me of being controlling ( regardless of if we could afford it / good deal / bad deal etc ) and i would usually find a way / sensible solution to get her what she wanted. That would restore the status quo until the next time - and the texts exchanged / photos show happyness, regardless of her claims after BD.

Just interesting to hear thoughts on if the WAW was unhappy for a long time, or do some people just cross then line then use the unhappyness as an excuse.

thanks

[curtis7]

Link to Part 3:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2845184&#Post2845184