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Posted By: curtis7 Persistent Endurance - 03/14/19 05:36 PM
Hey everyone,

I've read several of the agonizing stories and many that have given me hope over the past few months. I feel it's the right time for me to join this community, share my story, and obtain support from the amazing group of people here. I'll break the background up into monthly increments as there is quite a bit to digest. Just to preface, I am doing what I can to change myself, avoid divorce, and start a new marriage with my W.

My life with my W seemed to be going along fine. We met in college, had been married for 14 years and known each other 18 years. We were in a state of relationship comfort and mostly focusing on our two kids S/8 and D/4. There were not many arguments, certainly nothing that seemed out of the ordinary or severe. However, we weren't doing much as a couple since the kids dominated our time. Although we traveled regularly prior to becoming parents, we were generally homebodies that didn't go out often on dates. That seemed to be fine for both of us as we enjoyed each other's company when we were together, were intimate regularly, and we had built a great life.

In late October 2018, my W told me she was unhappy with our sex life and reluctantly told me how she wish it could be different similar to some romance novel fantasies she had become fond of. The next week, we took a week long family cruise with our kids and she was cold and distant for much of it. We were intimate once during the cruise and it didn't seem to be good for either of us. This was the last time she really showed any physical affection towards me up until this post. Upon leaving the ship and driving home, my W was texting the entire 2 hour drive. I later found out she was texting her new best friend that was going through a divorce and a therapist that she had been seeing for several months. Two days later on the evening of 11/6/2018, my wife brought me a glass of wine and then hit me with, at the time, the biggest shock of my life, BOMB DROP!!! She gave me a letter that expressed her unhappiness with me, identified many of my shortcomings in our relationship, and alluded that she didn't know if we could go back to a starting place. Although, it didn't state that she wanted the Big D. I remained calm and after a few minutes and reading the letter again, it hit me. It was like an epiphany where I finally saw it, understood how she was driven away, and acknowledged everything. At that moment I committed to changing myself forever, for her, for my family, for those close to me, and most importantly, for myself.

We talked for a few hours and she said that over the past 4 months she had stepped back to observe us and everything started to crystallize to her. She felt that she could have a chance of finding happiness and being her own person if I was out of her life. She told me she had been seeing an IC that told her I was overly controlling. I now understand why she felt this way after spending the past few months learning more about controlling behavior. I later learned that a co-worker had started communicating with her regularly over the course of the year and things started to heat up in August when he asked her out. This was an EA in which he complimented her intellect, beauty, and sense of humor. All of which she possesses and to a high degree. My W is highly attractive and I can certainly understand why others would want to pursue her.

Over the next few days after BD, I sent her text messages trying to show her how much she meant to me and how great our life can be together going forward. She was cordial in her responses and said this whole situation makes me sad. I had previous plans to go out of town with friends for the weekend and it was utter misery. During that time, I wrote my own letter that acknowledged how I had failed her in our marriage, apologized for everything, and laid out how I planned for things to be different. She read it when I got home but did not seem overly taken by the content. She said several things in the letter were good for me, but too late for her and don't change her feelings or decisions. I asked if she had made a decision and she said yes, she wanted to end our marriage and be independent. She said she had no feelings left for me and feels indifferent. She said her lack of anger is a sign that she doesn't care anymore.

She asked that I stay in the guest bedroom. I had a very hard time with this and asked her if I could sleep in our bed as my heart was racing and she calms me, which she did. Over the next several days I continued to text her appreciation, gratitude, and expressions of my love. We talked about our relationship a few more times and I think she had fully expected me to react negative to the BD and become upset and combative. However, my reaction was the opposite and my commitment to change put her in a state of disbelief and I don't think she knew what to do. Her walls were already up and she said I was only making changes out of fear of losing the marriage and how others may think of that.

Over the next few weeks, I made all of the classic mistakes. I kept pursuing and trying to convince her. I reached out to her sister for help and her new BFF that was close to finalizing her divorce. Neither of them offered assistance and said that my wife needed to work through this on her own. I continued telling my wife how things are going to be better and she will have more time to do the things she enjoyed. I was killing myself taking on all of the household chores and going out of my way to do special things for her each day. I was struggling to sleep at night and depression was setting in.

I started monitoring her phone records and text logs to try to find answers or pinpoint where or how this all started. I had never once looked at any of this in all our time together prior to the BD. I did notice a trend that communication with her new best friend that was going a divorce had ramped up significantly. In early the first half of 2018, they averaged about 50 text messages per month. However, in June 2018 when her friend and now ex husband made a decision to dissolve their marriage, texts between the two of them increased to 100 that month, then 300 in July, then 750 in August, 1100 in November, and 2100 in December!! I could only imagine the bashing of husbands and plotting that was going on in these exchanges. We had known the couple that was divorcing as long as my wife and I have been together. I think my wife really bonded with the woman as her mother had passed away within the past year and my wife's mother had past away when she was a freshman in college.

Also, on the phone records was a new number after a night out with her almost divorced friend. I looked up the number and found it was a pickup artist in training that was only 25 years old, my wife was 37 at the time. From now on, he will be referred to as the OM. I confronted her about the number and shared with my W what I had learned about him and she said it was all for fun, he was funny, and that there was nothing to worry about. I kept pressuring her, was clingy and needy. Then, the day after Thanksgiving I saw an email confirmation of a credit card charge for a hotel when my W was going out with her almost divorced friend again. She sent me a text saying "gonna stay here tonight." A few weeks later I discovered this night was a realization of one of my greatest fears in life where my W had a PA with the OM.

I believe her lack of happiness and fulfillment in achieving goals in her life, the EA with her co-worker, comments from her therapist on our relationship, and H bashing with her almost divorced friend were the perfect storm for the BD and catalyst to become a WW.

At this time, I was just starting to learn about MLC and had not connected the dots yet. That about sums up November 2018. On to next post...
Posted By: Cadet Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/14/19 05:39 PM
Welcome to the board

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htm

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!

Get out and Get a Life (GAL).

DETACH.


Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.

Have NO EXPECTATIONS.

Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:

I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072

Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414

Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566

Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554

Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619

Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/14/19 05:40 PM
On to December 2018...

I started spending time at the local library reading self-help books on relationships and marriage. I read "The Happy Couple" by Barton Goldsmith, "The 5 Love Languages" by Gary Chapman, "DR" by Michelle, "DB" by Michelle, "Ten Lessons to Transform Your Marriage" by John Gottman, "Marriage Rescue" by Gary Direnefeld, and "Relationship Rescue" by Dr. Phil. I also spent a considerable amount of time online reading articles and forums on what could be going on with my W and our relationship and ways to reconcile and reconnect. I offered some of these resources to her and she skimmed a few, but said I was just finding things that support my point of view.

I started the practice of Letting Her Go and GAL by going out and staying away from the house. This was hard for me as I really didn't want to leave my kids. They are my world especially since the BD. I was trying not to spy or snoop on her but she was constantly glued to her phone. I had the underlying suspicion that something wasn't right. She had recently changed her password by I saw the pattern at dinner one night in early December. When she went outside for a while I unlocked the phone and discovered the EA with the OM that consisted of sexting and pictures along with confirmation of the PA the day after Thanksgiving. This was the most pain I had ever felt in my life. I confronted her on it and she denied everything until I told her I saw what was on her phone. She had plans to meet the OM again the next day but told me she planned to cancel because she couldn't do that type of thing again without an emotional connection. We have not slept in the same bed since this blowup and argument.

Over the next week I continued to pressure and try to convince. In response, she grew more distant. I started waking up several times during the night in cold sweats and was losing weight daily. I was already down 15 pounds since the BD (and I only started at 170 lbs). She was starting to rewrite history and say that she thought about saying no when I asked her to marry me and questioned if she ever loved me. She said it was time for her to be selfish regardless of what it does to others. She said she wants true separation and freedom to date other men. I woke her up one night and asked all the questions I thought I needed to get closure on the PA, which she answered. That night, I told her I'm sleeping in the MBR from now and said she can come back whenever she feels she's ready. I asked her to read the first chapter of DR where it discusses biased shoulders (namely her now divorced best friend and possibly her sister), she made it half way through before becoming too tired and wanting to sleep. She never read it again. She started sleeping in the guest bedroom.

She kept wanting to go out with friends, she was still meeting up with the co-worker and continuing that EA. I asked her to text me her whereabouts which she agreed. We engaged in more relationship talk and she said she felt trapped and that I was backing her into a corner that keeps getting smaller and smaller. She threatened to file if I kept that up. My W discussed separation with her sister and they agreed that it was a good idea since it worked for 3 of her sisters co-workers that all returned to their marriages. I tried to share the statistics that ~75% of separations end in divorce and the research study that indicated that 80% of unhappy marriages are happy 5 years later. She discounted those and thought she could be in the minority for both of those. My W went to a therapy session and the IC supported separation as well, but thought it was a good thing that I was trying to change.

I continued to pressure her during mid-December and asked her to read books and articles for different perspectives. She said I was trying to change her mind and she refused. She said it was another form of control and that I should stop being noble by holding on. During this time, I was trying to limit contact, go dark occasionally, and was successful for a few days, then I fell right back into the trap. One step forward, and two steps back. I made several more discoveries during this time frame with love notes for the co-worker and OM, sex toy gifts from the divorced woman, and new text message records from the OM. Each of these had a devastating impact on me that caused me to question her. Of course, these attempts were met with strong resistance and she pulled away each time. She said my snooping was why she wanted to separate. I wanted to start practicing DB'n, but the fear of the OM relationship was consuming me and this lasted through the holidays into the New Year.

By mid-December the lies were starting to mount. I realized that I couldn't believe anything that she said to me and only 50% of what she did. She was covering up phone activity and spending almost all of her waking hours outside of work staring and pecking away at her phone. Often neglecting our children. Her behavior was becoming more destructive, going out drinking, staying up late, and trying to recapture her youth. Her vanity was being prioritized as she started going for manicures, pedicures, waxings, buying skin anti-aging creams and pills, and other health and beauty items she never had before.

By late-December her new personality was almost unrecognizable to me. I was still committed to staying strong no matter how far she strays into the fog. She seemed so lost and I kept hoping and praying that she realizes all the good we can share before it's too late and our bond is broken. I was checking text records again and saw that she was back in contact with the OM. When I questioned her, she said she had no regret and didn't care if I healed. She said there is no attraction for me, she feels repulsed when I touch her, and doesn't want to come home after work.

My W was planning to go on a girls trip to an all-inclusive resort in Cancun for the divorced woman's 40th birthday in mid-January. She said she plans to move out after she gets back. So, my W started looking for apartments and rental homes after Xmas. I continued a few days of distancing, then a slip up every 3 days back to relationship talk. She took our kids to the divorced woman's apartment on New Year's Eve, leaving me home alone. Fortunately, I went to a co-worker's party and tried to be social. A not so wonderful end to 2018 and praying that 2019 is the year we can rekindle the spark...
Posted By: LH19 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/14/19 06:10 PM
Man that was painful to read I am so sorry for you man.

I think you need to start off with the realization that pursuit and relationship talks don't work and make matters worse.

I also want you to know that this is going to take a really long time to completely play out (months most likely years) and you are not looking to rekindle a spark right now. You are in damage control right now. When I say that I mean that you can't make matters better right now but you can certainly make them worse.

Where is she at with getting her own apartment?
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/14/19 07:34 PM

Hi Curtis,


You are ahead of most newbies. Good job reading. Keep it up. Counter-intuitive is the key right now. No pressure. No pursuit.


You have been given a gift even if you can't see that now. Focus on your personal growth.

Read all my quote threads. All kinds of wisdom in here:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2831362#Post2831362



I am versed in the pick-up artist stuff. Study this. Read between the lines and up your game. OM using this with married women shows his poor character.

Look this post over for counter-intuitive ways to attract:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2061094#Post2061094


R2C
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/14/19 07:42 PM
LH19, even though I kept reading it everywhere, it did take me over 3 months to realize pursuit and relationship talks were horrible choices. The jealousy and insecurity with the other men were just too much of a temptation for me. Iím dealing with that better over the past few weeks.

Stay tuned for the apartment/separation update. More details coming in February and March summaries.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/14/19 07:52 PM
R2C, thanks for the links to the resources. Iíve been in a highly motivated state to learn as much as I can since this all started. My W and my family are that important to me. I focus on my kids to give me the strength to keep fighting on the really tough days. She is a good person that has gotten into a bad way right now. I know she can come out of this someday.

She finds the pick-up artist stuff so fresh, exciting, and fills her with lust that satisfies her fantasies and desires. These men that try to move in on married women with young children are the scum of the earth IMO. Half the worldís population is single, but they feel the need to exert their power and control on vulnerable wives and mothers.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/14/19 07:54 PM
On to January 2019...

Continued keeping up with domestic responsibilities and projects around the house. Although I was already in good shape physically, I started exercising at the gym even more. I often go with a friend that is a positive influence and gives me support on what I am willing to disclose. I try to keep the extremely personal details private because I truly believe I will reconcile with my W someday and I donít want people to know many things.

I have taken notice that friends and family are quick to offer their advice in these types of situations. Much of the recommendations are for me to move on and often contradict my ultimate goal of making our marriage stronger than ever. I view these as quick fixes for happiness that are not in the long-term best interest of my family. Marriage is work and is the most fulfilling, separation and divorce is the easy way out.

My W started taken more selfies and I knew she was sending them to the OM. She engaged in episodes where she attacked me if she didnít like the way I was taking care of the kids. I was going about a week with giving her space with the IHS and we worked on a house project together. She posted it on FB and thanked me for helping. However, I later learned that night she went to see the OM for their second encounterwhen she told me she was going shopping.

She was ramping up her rental and house search with a realtor and was leaning towards buying a small place. The kids were starting to take notice and ask questions why we werenít sleeping in the same room. This was very painful to hear from our kids. I just said we were working on some things.

I bought Manly Marriage Revival and started trying to follow the guidance offered. I distanced myself from her and letting her go to get her back for the week leading up to her trip to Cancun. I have her a hug when she left for the airport that she didnít really reciprocate. The resort was for singles,† it sure what she may have engaged in and donít want to know. She callled nightly to video chat with just the kids. She looked tired and run down on the calls from drinking and staying up late each night. When she got back from the trip, I gave her a hug and told her how happy we all were which was met with a cold response.

I surprised her with a house project while she was in Cancun. We spent the next couple nights finishing it up with painting. She called me honey on a couple of occasions. That felt nice to hear for the first time in months.

After almost 3 weeks of not talking about our relationship, I gave her a hug one night after work and told how great of a mother she was, but she tried to push away. I asked her if her needs were being met and she said she felt like she was in a holding pattern. She said she wasnít getting any younger and feels like she was missing out on life, possibly personally and in a relationship. She compares herself to her mother who died at 51 and she doesnít know how much time she has left. She said she is broken and wants to separate but she said that doesnít necessarily mean the end for us. She said she feels even more pressure after coming back from Cancun. She said she is sick of hearing there is no pressure from me, her career, others. She said she took care of the the situation with her co-worker, one man down, OM to go.

I asked her to agree that if at any point her feelings started to change that she would put the pause on separation and work on us, she said I would be the first to know. She said she has been treating me nice as a friend but that I shouldnít get the wrong idea. That is why she refuses to touch me or sleep in the same bed with me, she doesnít want me to get the wrong idea. She said her views on life have changed over time when she looks at others and wonders what if they had chosen a different path. She just doesnít feel it right now and thinks she is wasting her time because she is convinced those feelings wonít return. She said she waited until after Cancun just as I asked, but her feelings havenít changed, I said that could take a long time. She again said itís her and that she manipulates people. I told her she doesnít and I accept everything about her and will be there for her when she is ready.

Near the end of January, she went with me to a doctorís appointment and later told me she felt like her skin was crawling on the car ride. My W continued texting the OM and lied to me about who it was, but I knew. I asked her about the OM. She said he got a new phone and he was funny. I asked if she would show me the texts and she refused. She said she was not sexting him but there were innuendos that are inappropriate. I told her that if she is giving emotions to others, then that undermines our relationship and makes it significantly more difficult to work on us. She promised she wasnít going to see him, but still wonít agree to break off all contact. That night, a third encounter with the OM took place when she told me she was going out with her divorced BFF.

The next morning our daughter approached my W and asked why she makes me sad. My W stormed into the MBR criticized me, but I remained calm. She said we could go to a counselor so a third party could tell me what sheís been trying to tell me because Iím not listening. She again said she wants a divorce.

One of the most challenging things for me in all of this are the other men. I believe I could give her a lot of space and time if I knew there was no one else in her life, but she refuses to give those assurances. That about sums up January, returned to distancing...
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/14/19 08:06 PM


So I would play this game with my kids when they were little. They would come to me and I would softly push them away and say NOPE. Guess what they did? Yup, they would try harded to get close to me. The more I pushed them away. The more they wanted to be with me. And of course, other times, I would flip it. "I am going to hug you" and chase them. Of course they ran away giggling. The more I chased, the more they ran away.

Works with women too.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/14/19 08:08 PM
Originally Posted by curtis7
One of the most challenging things for me in all of this are the other men. I believe I could give her a lot of space and time if I knew there was no one else in her life, but she refuses to give those assurances. That about sums up January, returned to distancing...
Set her free. Do not try to control her.

My montra:
"I do not want to be with a woman who does not want to be with me."
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/14/19 08:10 PM
Hi Curtis, you said you've read several stories here, so I guess you see how familiar they are to your own. Did you complete the book, Divorce Remedy?

I encourage you to read the links in that Cadet sent you. Among those are some threads I wrote about the wayward W. I hope you'll read them.

It is difficult for a H to believe and/or accept that his W is wayward. He had much rather think she's having a MLC. Honestly, she can turn around faster from waywardness than a MLC.......if that's any comfort to hear. As it has already been stated, it does take time, and usually it's much longer than the H ever dreamed.

Please do not show this board or any of these posts to your W. These are for your eyes only. By now, you have seen it doesn't work in your favor to try to get her to read anything supporting marriage.

You'll hear advice that is totally opposite of what feels like you should be doing. In fact, you'll be scared to do it. How do I know? B/c you have too much fear of losing her, and that fear is going to cost you mightily.

Hope you'll stick with us. Post every chance you get.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/14/19 09:09 PM
Curtis, I know you are not done with your updates. However, I have noticed a pattern. You say "I am giving her space. I am letting her go to get her back. etc....." However, then you talk about snooping, confronting, asking questions and starting R talks.

Notice, in none of the books or programs (and I read most of them myself, and even bought the Manly Man program) did they say "giver he time and space unless she has an OM". Time and space is for her to figure her stuff out. Letting her go means letting her go, not letting her go unless she is in an EA, PA, texting other men, etc.

You are pushing her out the door. You are cementing your fate of D. The tighter you hold on to her the more she will struggle to get away. WWs are like a cat. If you pick up and cat and try to hold it on your lap, it will fight you with every fiber of its being to get away. But if you let the cat come to you, jump up on its own and lay on your lap, it will lay there for hours at a time.

STOP THE PRESSURE. STOP THE PURSUIT. STOP TRYING TO CONTROL HER. Drop the rope, let her go. Focus on your 180s, your GAL, and your detachment. You have to get to a place where she could tell you she went to a hotel, and gang-banged 100 guys, and it would roll off your back like water off a duck. You have no chance of turning that around IF you can't get to that point. With every question, confrontation, snooping, tracking, phonecall, text you are pushing her further and further away. If you had dropped the rope the day after BD, you'd be that much closer to her changing her mind. The fact that she is still there is a huge sign. Many WWs and WAWs leave by time they get to the point of BDing. I believe that people DO what they truly BELIEVE what they want. People TALK about what they aren't sure about.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/14/19 10:00 PM
Originally Posted by Steve85
You have to get to a place where she could tell you she went to a hotel, and gang-banged 100 guys, and it would roll off your back like water off a duck.
This is when she will feel safe telling you things.

Your job is to listen without judgement. Without offering advise. Your job is to understand HER story.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/15/19 01:00 AM
Originally Posted by sandi2
Hi Curtis, you said you've read several stories here, so I guess you see how familiar they are to your own. Did you complete the book, Divorce Remedy?

It is difficult for a H to believe and/or accept that his W is wayward. He had much rather think she's having a MLC.



Sandi, I did complete DR in December, itís time I look back at my notes and key points that I took away from the book.

Iím curious how you can distinguish between a W that is in MLC and a WW? I have pretty much convinced myself over the past few months that she is in a MLC and have been giving her the benefit of the doubt on many things because I felt she had no control over what she as going through.

Thanks so much for posting.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/15/19 01:09 AM
Originally Posted by Steve85
Curtis, I know you are not done with your updates. However, I have noticed a pattern. You say "I am giving her space. I am letting her go to get her back. etc....." However, then you talk about snooping, confronting, asking questions and starting R talks.

You are pushing her out the door. You are cementing your fate of D.


Steve, you are spot on. I thought I was committed to giving her space on several occasions during the first few months. Then, I kept getting sucked back in to these slip ups like a vacuum. The OM caused such insecurity that I couldnít resist the impulses at the time. I have such a deep connection with my W that I know when she lies to me as Iím sure most H do. Our intuition and hunger for the truth leads us to try and find answers. Unfortunately, as you soon read, I didnít do better in February, it wasnít until the beginning of March that I finally let her go and grasped the damage of my push behavior and importance of detaching.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/15/19 01:49 AM
Originally Posted by curtis7
Originally Posted by sandi2
Hi Curtis, you said you've read several stories here, so I guess you see how familiar they are to your own. Did you complete the book, Divorce Remedy?

It is difficult for a H to believe and/or accept that his W is wayward. He had much rather think she's having a MLC.



Iím curious how you can distinguish between a W that is in MLC and a WW?


Sandi, I located the distinction in one of your posts:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/15/19 05:37 AM
On to February 2019...

My W and I were invited to our neighbor's 50th birthday celebration at a black tie event. She said she would just have to fake it. Her exact phrase on the way here was "Fake it 'til we make it." I thought we had a great time, dancing, drinking, and enjoying each other's company. I felt so alive and thrilled connecting with her in that way again; however, I'm certain she was faking it. She took some nice photos with me and our friends and seemed happy. My W was texting her divorced BFF regularly during the party and asked me what I have against her as she feels the woman is a great friend and person. I told her I thought the divorced friend is a negative influence on my W. I kept bringing my W drinks and upon leaving she was very intoxicated. On the drive home, she told me she had no love left for me and that she was sorry and that I needed to let her go. She cried curled up in a fetal position on the way home.

The next day she had one of the worst hangovers of her life and asked why I kept bringing her drinks. I replied that I thought we were having a great time and it seemed like she was having fun. She said she makes the best of any situation and refused having any fun with me.

Now, my W was starting to get really serious about finding another place to live. She was regularly meeting with her realtor to look at properties. She discussed the financial situation with me and whether I would go along with her using marital assets for her to buy a house. I agreed as I know how badly she feels the separation is needed. We talked about what would become of the property in the long run if things work out for us and we agreed that it would be a good rental property (our first rental real estate venture). I have handled almost all of the finances in our relationship and she knows how savvy I am in that area. So, she asked for my help in reviewing mortgage quotes so she would not make a poor financial decision. She was surprised at how well I was handling the her house search and commented that she wondered if I was going to sabotage it somehow. I told her I want to help because I feel this is going to be our investment at some point.

We talked about the possibilities of buying more rentals or rehabbing houses. She made a comment along the lines of too bad it wasn't a year ago, then said 4 years ago. One year ago or just under is when she started IC. 4 years ago, my W had a very dangerous infection and spent 9 days in the hospital getting pumped full of every antibiotic imaginable. This was a traumatic experience for her and even though I slept there every night, she felt I wasn't there for her when she needed me after waking up from anesthesia and not knowing where I was. The doctors never told me they were going to put her under. She also brought up some hair loss side effects that she was experiencing after withdrawing from the medication a few years ago and that I was not there to give her emotional support. I apologized for the past and told her I cannot change that. I told her I was a selfish person back then, but that is not who I am anymore.

My W had a ton on her plate, between the OM, divorced BFF, and house hunting, she was also trying to change employers. She went to several interviews trying to land a career with a higher salary. I wished her luck on each and offered her support in preparing for any of them. One of the interviews paid off as you'll find out in the March update.

Since my W was open to marriage counseling, I took the initiative to try and find one. I selected a woman from the AAMFT which I thought was going to be pro marriage. My W and I went to the initial couples session and mostly provided background history on how we got to our current sitch. The counselor recommended that we each come back for IC sessions to discuss our goals and we agreed. My IC session was not what I expected. I explained my goals of continuing to change myself, reconnecting with my W, and making our marriage better than ever. However, the IC kept asking me questions about how I would feel if that didn't work out and we were to divorce. I asked the IC if she had any constructive feedback or solutions that I could work on to help meet my goals. She kept coming back to the fact about how my W feels right now and the IC seemed committed and dead set that feelings of that nature cannot change. I told the IC that I understand how my W feels right now, but that doesn't mean I can't be the catalyst the cultivates change in our relationship which my W may come along with at some point in the future. I spoke with my W about her session, but she didn't share what her goals were. I just sensed they didn't align with mine, so I saw no value in continuing with that counselor or any therapy for that matter until my W wants to work on the marriage.

I continued doing nice things, acts of service for her, such as making breakfast, cleaning around the house and we seemed to be getting along really well. Then, around the middle of the month, my W accused me of talking to our son about us. Apparently, he told her "I don't care if you leave." I tried explaining to her that he and I pray together sometimes that she doesn't leave. She also criticized me for helping to book a flight for her dad to come for his annual visit while she was in Cancun. I asked her if she meant her wedding vows, she said not when I didn't honor mine to treat her right. I explained to her what a fulfilling life meant to me with her and I in a loving relationship and our family together, watching our kid's challenges and successes and continuing to grow and nurture what we have until old age. She said I put that eloquently. At that time, I told her I knew about the continued PA with the OM and she saw how much hurt that was causing me. She agreed that our life would be a lot easier if we could get through this, then she shed a tear saying if I wouldn't had been such a dumb*ss. She said her relationship with the OM is like an addiction. I think it is an obsession or limerence.

On Valentine's Day, my W sent me a text stating that she deleted everything associated with the OM from her phone. I replied "Thank you...I can't even begin to express what that means to me." A couple days later I asked her motivation for deleting the messages with the OM, she said "I might be a bad person, but I don't intentionally try to hurt people." She claimed this was going to be permanent. She said she was disrespected by him with his pickup artist games and that he was deeply damaged. Little did I know that was short lived as the OM continued to contact her and she could not resist. The next day the OM told my W that he got another girl pregnant, and my W offered him emotional support. She went to meet him for lunch and I told her the only way to end an A is to break off all contact permanently. She refused and wants to maintain the friendship. I pushed again moving her further into separation, she said that I made things worse and only time will tell if I can stop.

Her dad came to visit at the end of the month and we went out to a dinner show for my W's 38th birthday. She seemed to have fun and we engaged with each other during the show. She thanked me an enjoyable evening. She put an offer in on a house and it was accepted, closing scheduled for April 1st. She showed it to her dad and made him believe it was a rental property. Never told him she has intentions of living there. I had a great visit with her dad, we had never been very close or had much in common, but he noticed and commented on all of my personal changes and was impressed at the person I had become.

The end of the month was not my finest hour. I pressured her some more and asked about continued contact with the OM and secret texting apps. She accused me of controlling her again and said that she can't see the forest through the trees and that's why separation is the only thing that could possibly allow her to see the forest. The next day a notification icon popped onto her smartphone screen that was for the Plenty of Fish dating app. Later that night I asked her about it and she gaslighted me into thinking I was seeing things. A couple days later I found her sexting OM#2 (28 year old, 10 years younger than her) at night which resulted in a heated exchange. She said our marriage is over, it's only legal and doesn't mean anything. She thinks this is who she really is and said "I'm not the wholesome girl everyone thinks I am." I told her I know you're on a journey searching for something you want to feel, but don't lose yourself along the way, or your dignity, or your self respect. She said she knows what she's doing is immoral and unethical but I am the cause. She said my pressure pushes her more and more into wanting those interactions with other men.

I know there is no way she'll come back to me while the EAs/PAs are still going on. I told my W that I cannot continue watching what she is doing, glued to her phone constantly, and that I need some space too. I told her I planned to stay elsewhere for the next week or so to give her the emotional and physical space she has been requesting. This was the turning point I needed for myself to detach. She agreed to let me do that. Again, February was not my shining moment.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/15/19 11:52 AM
Curtis, so far you've just really put a ton of pressure on your W and I mean a TON. Not sure how long ago you read DR but there's no DB'ing in your posts so far. I completely agree with Steve on this:

Quote
I have noticed a pattern. You say "I am giving her space. I am letting her go to get her back. etc....." However, then you talk about snooping, confronting, asking questions and starting R talks.


You are driving your W farther and farther away with all the pursuit and temp checks. Maybe there will be a shift when you do your last update but if not, there needs to be ASAP.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/15/19 12:10 PM
curtis, AS has a way of putting things succinctly and he is 100% right. That is a ton of pressure. The LBS that do the most damage to their sitches are those that think they have to constantly be doing something to make things better. I see no GAL, or detachment in the updates so far. And even some of your 180s are harmful. Attraction comes from respect, and wives do not respect subservient men. Look who she is drawn to: a 28 yearold pickup artist that has done nothing for her except tell her what she wants to hear.

Looking forward to March! And to see you start turning yourself around.

Also, one last thing. Your WW is classic WW. I often say on here that women do not need their own place to live to find themselves, or figure themselves out or to work on the marriage. They need their own place to sleep with other men. Dating apps. Sexting. That was part and parcel of what my WW did. She never got to a full blown PA but she was well on her way. And the only thing that stopped her was my GAL, and detaching. Two things you haven't been able to do.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/15/19 04:22 PM
On to March 2019 and current updates...

So, starting the last couple days of February through the first week and a half of March, I began spending my nights nearby at a family member's home while they were vacationing in the Caribbean. The routine consisted of my W dropping the kids at school in the morning, me picking them up and taking them home. Sometimes preparing dinner with them if she was not back from work and other times leaving shortly after she got back. Communication was primarily limited to the children. I did not reach out to her via text, phone, or otherwise unless she contacted me first.

Now, I coach youth sports that my son plays which is part of my GAL. Flag football season finished up last month and we were rolling right into baseball season. So, I take my son to games and practices about 3 times a week. My boy is a phenomenal athlete and he and I share a natural connection due to our love of sports. My daughter is there occasionally as well until my W can pick her up after work. The coaching helps me remain social with parents of the other kids and gives me a sense of purpose in life to lead these young men and teach them good sportsmanship and teamwork.

Opening day was the first weekend in March after I brought my son home, my W asked me to stay to review details on a fairly lucrative job offer she received and a comparison on what we may do about health insurance for the family. We went through that and had a positive and productive discussion.

I also play indoor volleyball once or twice a week with a regular group nearby. My W really loves volleyball and was one of the primary reasons I started participating, but doesn't have much interest in going anymore with all of her other interests right now. I enjoy the competition and exercise while being able to interact with a mostly positive group of people. I usually take my kids with me to play with kids of other families. On one such occasion, we didn't get home until almost 10pm and my W told me that was controlling since I didn't communicate what time I would be dropping off the kids, it forced her to sit around at home all night. I responded with validation, but I think she is just looking for opportunities for me to enable more of her wayward interactions.

Staying with the kids for 10 nights in a row with less assistance from me seemed to take a toll on my W. According to my son, they were getting dropped off at school barely in time as typically my role is to dropoff. Two times, my W turned the wrong way out of the community heading towards her work rather than school. I think she is juggling so much that the fog, lack of sleep from smartphone addiction, OM contact, divorced BFF issues, separation home, new job offer, and stress of the children is catching up with her. As such, she seemed to look for more opportunities to get into arguments with me. I remained calm, validated when I could, and did not participate in these attacks.

Compounding the situation was the ex of the divorced BFF got married last Monday morning to a woman he met in November and only 3 months to the day after his D was finalized. The BFF was traumatized and of course my W was the support system as the BFF stayed over at our house 3 nights in a row. Fortunately for me, I stayed elsewhere. However, the toxic negative influence was in prime sight for my W to continue the vilification of me.

My W actually unknowingly did me a favor last week by changing cell phone providers. She removed herself from our joint account and opened her own with a new carrier. Now, I have no way to check her phone and text records. This is very healthy for me as it completely removes that temptation.

This time away in the evenings did wonders for my psyche as I didn't have to watch her dive deeper into the abyss of the smartphone fantasy world. I am feeling a new sense of freedom of not getting so personally and emotionally attached to her words and actions. I remain optimistic and am not allowing the current state of the M and A's to consume me.

I was planning to stay away until last Sunday, but my W wanted to go out on Saturday night with her divorced BFF and meetup with OM#2. She kept texting me asking what time I could come over to "babysit". That was probably enabling behavior to agree to spend the night at our house with the kids, but at this point, I didn't really care what she was going to do, because I have finally come to the realization that I cannot control her, only myself. My W spent the night at her BFF's apartment and I took my kids to church the next morning.

Now that we are back sleeping under the same roof. This past week's highlights were a possible promotion for my W at her current job. She is strongly debating whether to stay with her employer of almost 15 years with great benefits or jump to the higher paying job that is a longer commute and less flexible on hours. I listened to her, reviewed a comparison of all compensation she put together, and gave her some insight on things to consider. In no way did I try to sway her one direction or the other. I am not trying to control or influence her choice at all.

My wife texted the next day asking if I could attend the closing on her separation home. I asked if I would have to sign anything and she said yes, but couldn't tell me what. I told her I need more information before I'm comfortable signing. She said this is my opportunity to throw a wrench in her plan to separate. I did not respond. However, my thought was this could be an opening for me to negotiate something I want for the relationship in the future. Namely, asking her to agree to attend a marriage intensive with me at some point in the future. Not sure what others think of this and I really don't know the appropriate time to attend such an event. Would it be better to go sooner than later. I think not until the multiple A's have fizzled out and perhaps several months after she has felt physical and emotional space in her separation home. Nevertheless, she hasn't brought it up again, but she will before the closing on April 1st. In the meantime, she has rented a storage unit and began buying furniture for her impending move.

Also, over the past week, my son had 3 baseball games which my W attended. She spent 90% of the time staring and pecking at her phone, only to look up when my son was up to bat. She didn't sit very close to the other baseball mom's that usually took and interact throughout the game without fantasy distractions. There are so many positive influences near us that could be a boon for supporting marriage, but my W wants no part in engaging with them. Instead she chooses the toxic divorced BFF and a female co-worker of mine that is on the verge of divorce as her two primary points of contact for support and venting. I guess it justifies her current actions as WW to only interact with those that don't contradict her current views, decisions, and actions.

On Wednesday we were supposed to have our follow-up marriage counseling session, but I had already canceled it last week. My W asked the time of the appointment and seemed surprised and possibly mildly upset that I canceled it. I told her that we never talked about our individual goals, so I didn't feel it was an appropriate time to continue the therapy as we are not currently moving in the same direction. She said she wanted to keep the sessions going to work on our communication with each and the kids. I think she liked the sessions because the counselor is pro divorce and she is hoping that I will go along with that and eventually change my mind. I said to my W "I understand how you feel, and I accept the fact that you feel that way, and I hope someday you will feel that way about me again" and left it at that.

This wraps up a fairly detailed history on where I currently stand. I know I have applied so much pressure to my W, that it will take a monumental effort and amount of time to work through this. I do reflect back on how things could have been different today had I not pushed, pried, spied, tried to convince, etc. from the start. Sometimes we just don't know what we don't know. On to daily updates...
Posted By: LH19 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/15/19 05:10 PM
Originally Posted by curtis7
I did not reach out to her via text, phone, or otherwise unless she contacted me first.

This is good. Keep it up.
Originally Posted by curtis7
The coaching helps me remain social with parents of the other kids and gives me a sense of purpose in life to lead these young men and teach them good sportsmanship and teamwork.

Awesome!
Originally Posted by curtis7
Staying with the kids for 10 nights in a row with less assistance from me seemed to take a toll on my W. According to my son, they were getting dropped off at school barely in time as typically my role is to dropoff. Two times, my W turned the wrong way out of the community heading towards her work rather than school. I think she is juggling so much that the fog, lack of sleep from smartphone addiction, OM contact, divorced BFF issues, separation home, new job offer, and stress of the children is catching up with her. As such, she seemed to look for more opportunities to get into arguments with me. I remained calm, validated when I could, and did not participate in these attacks.

This is all mind reading on your part and is just a waste of time and energy
Originally Posted by curtis7
That was probably enabling behavior to agree to spend the night at our house with the kids, but at this point, I didn't really care what she was going to do, because I have finally come to the realization that I cannot control her, only myself.

Your'e right you can't control her it's good that you understand that.
Originally Posted by curtis7
However, my thought was this could be an opening for me to negotiate something I want for the relationship in the future. Namely, asking her to agree to attend a marriage intensive with me at some point in the future. Not sure what others think of this and I really don't know the appropriate time to attend such an event. Would it be better to go sooner than later. I think not until the multiple A's have fizzled out and perhaps several months after she has felt physical and emotional space in her separation home. Nevertheless, she hasn't brought it up again, but she will before the closing on April 1st. In the meantime, she has rented a storage unit and began buying furniture for her impending move.

No, No No. Now is not the time for it or to bring it up.
Originally Posted by curtis7
Also, over the past week, my son had 3 baseball games which my W attended. She spent 90% of the time staring and pecking at her phone, only to look up when my son was up to bat.

How do you know in detail what she is doing. Take the focus off her.
Originally Posted by curtis7
She didn't sit very close to the other baseball mom's that usually took and interact throughout the game without fantasy distractions. There are so many positive influences near us that could be a boon for supporting marriage, but my W wants no part in engaging with them. Instead she chooses the toxic divorced BFF and a female co-worker of mine that is on the verge of divorce as her two primary points of contact for support and venting. I guess it justifies her current actions as WW to only interact with those that don't contradict her current views, decisions, and actions.

They seek out enablers and shut out anyone who doesn't agree with their thinking.
Originally Posted by curtis7
On Wednesday we were supposed to have our follow-up marriage counseling session, but I had already canceled it last week. My W asked the time of the appointment and seemed surprised and possibly mildly upset that I canceled it. I told her that we never talked about our individual goals, so I didn't feel it was an appropriate time to continue the therapy as we are not currently moving in the same direction. She said she wanted to keep the sessions going to work on our communication with each and the kids. I think she liked the sessions because the counselor is pro divorce and she is hoping that I will go along with that and eventually change my mind. I said to my W "I understand how you feel, and I accept the fact that you feel that way, and I hope someday you will feel that way about me again" and left it at that.

It's good that you cancel the session. Right now it is a waste of time and money. Why would see a pro divorce MC?
Originally Posted by curtis7
This wraps up a fairly detailed history on where I currently stand. I know I have applied so much pressure to my W, that it will take a monumental effort and amount of time to work through this. I do reflect back on how things could have been different today had I not pushed, pried, spied, tried to convince, etc. from the start. Sometimes we just don't know what we don't know. On to daily updates...

You didn't help your chances but you didn't ruin them either. This is likely to take years before it completely plays itself out. Keep posting.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/15/19 05:35 PM
Okay, even in this update....WAY to much pressure. Using the document signing as a chance to get her to attend a marriage intensive?! Do you really think it is going to help anything? I know you are trying to get a commitment for it later when the As are over. But do you really think she would honor such a commitment. I mean marriage is the biggest earthly commitment a human can make,and she isn't willing to live up to it. "Yeah I'll go to a marriage intensive at some point in the future with you if you cosign on my bachelorette sleep-around pad. Really?!?

You are obviously watching every move she makes. "She pecked at her phone only to look up when our S was at bat". Come on man, you know she can tell you are watching her like a hawk. She knows you are still attached. She knows at anytime she could promise to make a couple of concessions and have you reattached to whatever level she wants you. Do you think that is worthy of respect?

Drop the rope. Double down on GAL. Stop being laser-focused on her and work hard to detach. Let her go to get her back. Every thing you've done is pushed her further away. Time time withdraw and make her feel that you are moving on. Short of that she will never wake up.
Posted By: ovrrnbw Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/15/19 06:14 PM
I gotta say this sounds like me. Lots of attempts at controlling her, lots of pursuit, fear and a lying cheater. Oh and you write a lot haha.

Stop pursuing her completely. She's gonna wonder why you don't want her anymore and dangle bait to make you think she's interested, but don't take the bait. Always take time to consider instead.

Trust me, in time, you will be better than you've ever been. How tall are you? I'm thinking you may need to hit the weights and eat healthy to put some lbs back on. I've been doing this for a year now and the sooner you get tough the better. I have this amazing ability to overlook the things I don't want to believe in my ditch, don't be like me. Remember, there's lots of pretty, smart, funny, and kind women out there but your W is not the person you think she is.
Posted By: ovrrnbw Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/15/19 06:18 PM
Oh and stop snooping, just teach yourself to forget about her. Quit worrying about anything you can't control. You're super focused on her. Shes just another cheater right now and you need to quit worrying about her.

Read about the stop sign technique in Divorce Remedy - learn it use it love it.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/15/19 07:07 PM
LH19, thanks for the assessment on my latest post. It's encouraging that I'm starting to take some of the right steps in this process.

Steve, she sits in my direct line of sight to home plate when I'm coaching 3rd base. I almost wish she didn't attend but that not's supportive for my S. I know glancing at her is a bad habit that I need to break. I wear sunglasses during the games and she's so enmeshed in her phone, that I doubt she even knows I am looking in her direction. You're also right that she has zero respect for me. Parading around on dating apps in front of me and my friends. I need to focus on my GAL and she might see what she's missing.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/15/19 07:16 PM
Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
I gotta say this sounds like me. Lots of attempts at controlling her, lots of pursuit, fear and a lying cheater. Oh and you write a lot haha.

Stop pursuing her completely. She's gonna wonder why you don't want her anymore and dangle bait to make you think she's interested, but don't take the bait. Always take time to consider instead.

Trust me, in time, you will be better than you've ever been. How tall are you? I'm thinking you may need to hit the weights and eat healthy to put some lbs back on. I've been doing this for a year now and the sooner you get tough the better. I have this amazing ability to overlook the things I don't want to believe in my ditch, don't be like me. Remember, there's lots of pretty, smart, funny, and kind women out there but your W is not the person you think she is.


Ovrrnbw, I guess I did write a lot...I expect the regular updates and replies to be more concise. Based on the stories here, it's like a broken record for many of us, same rookie mistakes over and over.

I'm trying to avoid allowing my emotions to affect my decisions, and in general wait at least 24 hrs before acting on any major major decision.

I'm 5'9", my natural body weight is around 160-165 lbs. I was at 171 lbs upon leaving the cruise in early November 2018, currently at 152 lbs. My pants are awfully lose and most look oversized and baggy. Belts are in about 2 notches. I have a healthy appetite and am eating good foods. Honestly, my body feels great with a ton of energy. This new metabolism is something else. It doesn't matter if I eat junk food or stuff myself, just can't seem to put any weight on. Almost every ounce of fat has melted off my body and I've been hitting the weights hard for over a year, so my strength is there and muscle tone is well defined.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/15/19 07:41 PM
So, on Wednesday night my W told me she needed to go babysit the divorced BFF's daughters. She had mentioned this to me last week, but never confirmed any plans. She texted me around 6pm and asked when I would be home from work. I told her I was just leaving and she replied with an upset response. When I got home, she was in a hurry to leave and said she was planning to spend the night. I did not question her and took care of the kids.

Last night she told me that her divorced BFF no longer needed her to babysit, so she re-routed to go buy some more furniture for her separation pad. Then, she still went to stay with the BFF after that. I have suspicions that she probably met up with OM#2 somewhere along the way, but it's not worth my time, energy, mental, or emotional health to dig to find out. It's not my problem.

My son had another baseball game last night and afterwards I told him to go home with his mom. I went off to the gym. She texted me at 9:30pm asking if I got in an accident. I replied after finishing my workout at 10pm saying I was fine. Next came a string of texts from her ridiculing my lack of communication. She said it was inappropriate and all I have to do is tell her what my plans are so she knows what to tell the kids when they ask. I replied with some simple validation texts.

She went on to text that we will be determining a schedule this weekend. She is upset that I went to stay elsewhere for the week and a half and leave her with the kids. She said it is clearly a way for me to lock her down where she "belongs." She went on to text "You have assumptions in your brain that you are battling with...your problem...not mine." Her last text was "Feel free to stay away all night and weekend if you like."

When I got home at 10:30pm last night she said she plans to go out tonight. I told her I might have already made plans. She was clearly upset as her eyes were watery and I asked if everything was alright. She said she is tired of everyone sh**ting on her. She said she is dealing with issues at work and with the divorced BFF. Or maybe things aren't so good in paradise with OM or OM#2. If not, I wouldn't be surprised if she tried to find the next love interest on the dating apps. She is in a constant pursuit of happiness and looking in so many directions to fill those holes.

Then, this morning she said I could go do something because she was no longer in the mood. Constant flip-flopping is mind boggling.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/15/19 07:50 PM
Another interesting comment she made last night was that as a mother, she doesn't feel the need to be around her kids everyday. Since she carried them for 9 months, she is able to let them be on their own without a sense of attachment. I don't understand what she meant, but didn't press. She went on to say maybe other mothers don't feel that way or fathers for that matter.

I think it is her way of manipulating me to watch the kids more often so she can go off and do her thing. She may have been trying to get me to commit to saying that I do feel the need to be around the kids everyday to enable her to pursue her desires without family responsibilities.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/15/19 08:29 PM
C,

I know it's hard but you have to try to not analyze every little things she says. I would encourage you guys to make a schedule on who is looking after the kids and try to keep to the schedule.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/15/19 08:53 PM
Two things. Yes you guys need to work out a schedule. You're right, she is trying to manipulate you with the mother comment. But you need to get this in writing so there are no more issues like this.

I also think, based on your history since BD, that you may be using her needing to be home with the kids as a way of controlling her. You've struggled with where she is and what she's doing, but when she has to be with the kids you know she is home. WWs are masters at picking up on tactics like these.

Her freaking out at the lack of communication is typical WW behavior. They expect and actually like for you to text them constantly even if they say they don't. When it stops they wonder what is happening. WWs don't like the loss of control that they feel as the LBH starts getting better at detachment. Some even get mean.

Just hang in curtis, keep focusing on what YOU can control, and that isn't her.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/15/19 09:22 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
C,

I know it's hard but you have to try to not analyze every little things she says. I would encourage you guys to make a schedule on who is looking after the kids and try to keep to the schedule.

Makes sense, if I adhere to the schedule, it will be hard for her to blame me on controlling where she needs to be.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/15/19 09:27 PM
Originally Posted by Steve85

I also think, based on your history since BD, that you may be using her needing to be home with the kids as a way of controlling her. You've struggled with where she is and what she's doing, but when she has to be with the kids you know she is home. WWs are masters at picking up on tactics like these.

Her freaking out at the lack of communication is typical WW behavior. They expect and actually like for you to text them constantly even if they say they don't. When it stops they wonder what is happening. WWs don't like the loss of control that they feel as the LBH starts getting better at detachment. Some even get mean.

Steve, another astute observation. I do know she can't be with the OM when I leave her with the kids. Of course, her negative view of me will translate this into control 9 times out of 10.

What do you recommend with the text contact? Just keep it civil so she knows just enough for the kids to know where I am? Should I notify her in advance as she requested or wait for her to question my whereabouts?
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/15/19 09:37 PM
Do not initiate text messages. When she texts, if it is informational do not respond. If it is a question, respond in your own time in as few words as possible. Yes or no questions get yes or no answers. In your own time means you don't have to respond immediately. Take your time.

If she questions why you didn't read her informational texts later, just say: "I got it, thanks for letting me know." Or something appropriate to what she texted.

Your goal is to limit contact as much as possible. Face-to-face. On the phone. Over text. Keep your conversations short. Discuss only things necessary about the kids. If she starts a R discussion just say something like: "I am trying to process all of this. I need more time to consider everything." Be polite. Upbeat. But not overly sharing. Remember, stay busy. On her nights with the kids, be out doing something. Anything.
Posted By: ovrrnbw Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/16/19 03:01 AM
If you want a real reason not to text back, try to stay busy with GAL bc then you can't be glued to the phone.

You need to shut down some of these talks where you two are psychoanalyzing each other. It's only going to hurt you and your sitch.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/16/19 07:10 AM

Everything that works is counter-intuitive

You have to set her free. Work on being attractive. Change the way you interact. . Take all of your focus off of her and put it on you and your kids.

Focus on personal growth. Focus on being the best dad. Learn to listen without judgement.


Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/16/19 08:51 AM
Spring break at school started today for my kids and Iíve planned to take off work most of next week to be with them. I was thinking of taking them on a short trip to get out of the house and spend some quality time. We live in Florida and I was considering a few different options such as Atlanta, St Augustine, or Sanibel Island.

I shared with my S yesterday and he wasnít too keen on the long drives and chose St Augustine. This would probably be just a 2 day trip.

When my WW got home from work, my S unpromptedly asked her if she wanted to come with us. She seemed mildly intrigued but didnít make a decision. I said nothing.

Now, on Friday nights, I typically take the kids with me to play volleyball. So, next my S unpromptedly asked if she wanted to go with us and she actually did for once. Maybe I should have backed out then and just let her take the kids, but instead we all went together.

On the way she told me about her job sitch. Her current employer basically offered to match the new job offer from a total compensation perspective. I asked how she felt about that and essentially carried on a validation convo. She also told me about a supervisor that discouraged her from the promotion the day before which was one of the reasons she was upset. I empathized with her which she may have appreciated.

At volleyball, I treated her just like any other player. I focused on having fun playing with my friends with a cheerful attitude and didnít intentionally look in her direction or try to make eye contact. She kept going back to her phone between volleyball games and messaging whoever. Same thing the entire way home.

After getting the kids to bed, we were each having a snack at the table. We didnít talk. She, of course, was glued to her phone. I finished shortly after she sat down, so I got up, walked away, and went to bed.

It was a fun night. I feel I did a good job of ignoring her and moving on. Maybe she could sense my lack of interest.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/16/19 09:32 AM
C,

I understand that wen your son asks her to go that you don't want to disappoint him but right now you need space from her. She is slowly putting you in the friend zone and that is a place you don't want to be.

When she is responsible for the kids you want to be out doing something. The key is to be mysterious. Take the focus off your w and she will notice.
Posted By: ovrrnbw Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/16/19 03:42 PM
Originally Posted by curtis7
I asked how she felt about that and essentially carried on a validation convo.
Lulz. From now on you can just call them conversations. Try doing it with women in the workplace, or your mom or sister. See how the react as opposed to you just telling them how to fix things.

I wouldn't sit there at the table with her like all is fine and dandy either, it sends this message that you don't want to be sending.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/16/19 04:13 PM
Quote
She said she knows what she's doing is immoral and unethical but I am the cause. She said my pressure pushes her more and more into wanting those interactions with other men.


That first sentence demonstrates how WW's think. She blames her H for everything negative in her life, even her A. Pressuring her doesn't help the situation, but I think she threw in that part for good measure. I remember when I was in an EA, everything about my H felt like pressure. He could just walk into the room, and it was as if all the oxygen would leave. If he did something around the house as way of "helping me", I instantly suspected his of having a covert contract......"If I do this for her, then maybe she'll do what I want". He would also say, ILY, just to pressure me into saying it back.

Quote
That was probably enabling behavior to agree to spend the night at our house with the kids, but at this point, I didn't really care what she was going to do, because I have finally come to the realization that I cannot control her,


If you are doing it for the kids sake and not b/c you want to score a couple of brownie points with your WW, then it was fine. It's not a good thing to do if you have an ulterior motive. I'm glad to hear that you now realize you can't control her. We can't force people to love us. If we have to put them in an emotional vise to return our love......then what value is their love?

Quote
My wife texted the next day asking if I could attend the closing on her separation home. I asked if I would have to sign anything and she said yes, but couldn't tell me what. I told her I need more information before I'm comfortable signing. She said this is my opportunity to throw a wrench in her plan to separate. I did not respond. However, my thought was this could be an opening for me to negotiate something I want for the relationship in the future. Namely, asking her to agree to attend a marriage intensive with me at some point in the future. Not sure what others think of this and I really don't know the appropriate time to attend such an event. Would it be better to go sooner than later. I think not until the multiple A's have fizzled out and perhaps several months after she has felt physical and emotional space in her separation home. Nevertheless, she hasn't brought it up again, but she will before the closing on April 1st. In the meantime, she has rented a storage unit and began buying furniture for her impending move.


Here's an example of a WW expecting to continue benefiting from whatever her H can do for her.......although she doesn't want to be his wife. You cannot underestimate the pure selfishness of a WW.

My advice is to handle this co-signing from a business point of view, and do not attach any personal expectations. So many H's don't understand that the WW does not want to work on the MR. The H does. He's ready to pull out all the stops to save his M, but she is not on board and has no desire to work on it. Attending any type of workshop, seminar, counseling, or whatever, is not going to change her feelings as long as she is resistant to doing whatever it takes to save her M. This is really another way you are trying to control, it's just wrapped in a different package.

Quote
There are so many positive influences near us that could be a boon for supporting marriage, but my W wants no part in engaging with them. Instead she chooses the toxic divorced BFF and a female co-worker of mine that is on the verge of divorce as her two primary points of contact for support and venting. I guess it justifies her current actions as WW to only interact with those that don't contradict her current views, decisions, and actions.


As the LBH, you see all those positive people that could be a wonderful support system for her......but she doesn't want it. Once the WW steps over that line of betrayal, she will distant herself from anyone who does not agree with her choices. The BFF is a strong, negative influence. Women can be very influenced by another female. If you W already had the mindset for waywardness, then making friends with the BFF was like the perfect storm. IRL, I have witnessed women leaving their H to join some single female in a lifestyle that resembles Girls Gone Wild. It's crazy, and when that woman finally comes to her senses and sees the reality around her, it's heartbreaking to see what she sacrificed.

The WW wants to feel freedom. That's why she is resistant to emotional pressure and feels like you are trying to control her. She'll see almost anything you do....as a control method. You have to let her go. She has to figure this out for herself. It may take a couple of years, there's no way to determine. Many times, the LBH will move on with his life, and some time down the road the WW will want to reconcile. Here's what I want you to bear in mind. The two of you are not on the same journey. You are not sharing the same highway. Instead of seeing you as being "one", you have to see you as being two separate entities. She is not the girl you married. The more you try to force her into that mold, the worse she's going to treat you. The more you try to convince her the M can work, the worse her behavior will get b/c she feels she has to prove that she's done. She wants you to back off and just let her live however she chooses.

With that said, you don't have to condone her actions. Your part is to emotionally detach yourself from all her drama. Focus on you and the children. It's great you are involved in kids sports and stay busy. Her behavior at the games are indicative of a wife/mother who is not truly emotionally involved with her family. She's simply trying to "go through the motions" at the moment, but don't be surprised if she starts missing more and more games. We can't make the other spouse be a good parent.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/16/19 04:33 PM
Weekends in the same house with her are hard. I repeatedly hear alert notifications coming into her phone indicating a new message on the dating app. I donít know why she doesnít turn off the chime. She immediately goes to her phone and carries on.

It is sheer disrespect to be chatting up these OM right in front of me. So far into waywardness that she feels no shame.

How do others handle this type of situation? Are there any boundaries that I should think about setting? Or just ignore as best as possible until she moves out in a few weeks?
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/16/19 06:04 PM
Curtis, your mistake isn't boundary related. It is being around so much for all of it. Stay busy!! Get the child care schedule in place and then every minute that isn't your time with the kids is spent out some where. You're struggling with what she is doing because you are around hey too much. I know close proximity intuitively feels like being in control. But how is that working for you

Do not use boundaries as a way of trying to control her to do or not do what what you want or don't want her to do. Plus you have no way to enforce it. A boundary without consequences make you look weak and unattractive.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/17/19 03:26 AM
Originally Posted by LH19
C,

She is slowly putting you in the friend zone and that is a place you don't want to be.


Yes, I see this happening often now. She is treating me like a friend when she wants some favor for herself. Iím tired of being taken advantage of to enable her WW behavior.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/17/19 03:45 AM
Originally Posted by sandi2
He would also say, ILY, just to pressure me into saying it back.


I haven't said ILY since December, learned that one and stuck by it from early on, from that standpoint, I am in good shape.

Originally Posted by sandi2
As the LBH, you see all those positive people that could be a wonderful support system for her......but she doesn't want it. Once the WW steps over that line of betrayal, she will distant herself from anyone who does not agree with her choices. The BFF is a strong, negative influence. Women can be very influenced by another female. If you W already had the mindset for waywardness, then making friends with the BFF was like the perfect storm. IRL, I have witnessed women leaving their H to join some single female in a lifestyle that resembles Girls Gone Wild. It's crazy, and when that woman finally comes to her senses and sees the reality around her, it's heartbreaking to see what she sacrificed.


Yes, I do believe that someday she will realize the wave of destruction that her choices have caused. I hope that I can stand strong enough to ride it out before either her or I decide enough is enough.

Originally Posted by sandi2
She is not the girl you married. The more you try to force her into that mold, the worse she's going to treat you. The more you try to convince her the M can work, the worse her behavior will get b/c she feels she has to prove that she's done. She wants you to back off and just let her live however she chooses.


Not the girl I married or the woman I've known for the past 18 years, cannot be understated any more than you know. It is true that she is an alien to me. I never thought it possible to believe my partner that has always been there for me could flip into an unrecognizable personality that has almost no care for me whatsoever.

Originally Posted by sandi2

Her behavior at the games are indicative of a wife/mother who is not truly emotionally involved with her family. She's simply trying to "go through the motions" at the moment, but don't be surprised if she starts missing more and more games. We can't make the other spouse be a good parent.


Well stated, her priority is herself right now. All selfish desires trump anything else. When someone or something impedes what she is pursuing, there is no hesitation in stepping over or on it to get what she wants.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/17/19 03:50 AM
Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
Originally Posted by curtis7
I asked how she felt about that and essentially carried on a validation convo.
Lulz. From now on you can just call them conversations. Try doing it with women in the workplace, or your mom or sister. See how the react as opposed to you just telling them how to fix things.

I've been practicing this with several women over the past few months. I've noticed they are much more open to continue the conversation and open up about their feelings when I validate and actively listen. I must admit, this is not a characteristic I was highly proficient in previously and rather was eager to offer solutions to problems.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/17/19 03:55 AM
Originally Posted by Ready2Change

Learn to listen without judgement.

R2C, I've got this down. It's been weeks since I've judged her words or actions. I am there for her to support her in conversations, but pass no judgment nor offer suggestions to fix her problems. Just a strong support structure that hopefully she continues to appreciate and rely on more over time.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/17/19 04:08 AM
Originally Posted by Steve85
Curtis, your mistake isn't boundary related. It is being around so much for all of it. Stay busy!! Get the child care schedule in place and then every minute that isn't your time with the kids is spent out some where. You're struggling with what she is doing because you are around way too much. I know close proximity intuitively feels like being in control. But how is that working for you?

Steve, this one is tough, because I'm concerned the kids are being neglected when I'm not around due to all of her screen time.

Today, when she continued on with the dating apps on her phone. I went to Lowe's early afternoon to buy some supplies for a home improvement project that I had planned. When I returned, I spent the remainder of the day working outside on running wires and installing exterior LED lights. She texted me at 6:30pm stating that she was invited to a female co-workers house to hang out for the night. I replied, "So, you're taking the kids?" She replied she wasn't planning to but could check. She replied the other woman's kids where with their grandparents and said she didn't want to take ours. I didn't respond. Eventually at 8pm, and just before I came in the house after sunset, she texted "Heading out, be back later." Again, I didn't respond. Was this the right move?

Again, I feel taken advantage of being the babysitter for our kids with her cake eating. I don't really know if she is going to see he co-worker friend or hanging out with one of her new dating app hookups.

I must say that one thing I've noticed over the past few months is that when she is active around the house, then she generally meets up with one of the OM later in the evening. For instance, today she vacuumed the entire house, did laundry, unloaded the dishwasher, and grilled steak before heading out. Maybe this is her way of justifying her WW behavior in her mind that it is more acceptable from a morality perspective.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/17/19 04:27 AM
It isn't babysitting if its your own kids. Its called being their dad. If you are concerned about your kids well-being in her care then you need to talk to a lawyer.

Yes I you handled her texting alright.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/17/19 06:17 AM
Originally Posted by curtis7
Weekends in the same house with her are hard. I repeatedly hear alert notifications coming into her phone indicating a new message on the dating app. I donít know why she doesnít turn off the chime. She immediately goes to her phone and carries on.

It is sheer disrespect to be chatting up these OM right in front of me. So far into waywardness that she feels no shame.

How do others handle this type of situation? Are there any boundaries that I should think about setting? Or just ignore as best as possible until she moves out in a few weeks?


If you pay the phone bill, one boundary you can do is cancel her phone. Be prepared for an angry outbust. Then calmly explain why is is not appropriate to use family money to enable her infidelity.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/17/19 07:05 AM
Originally Posted by Ready2Change

If you pay the phone bill, one boundary you can do is cancel her phone. Be prepared for an angry outbust. Then calmly explain why is is not appropriate to use family money to enable her infidelity.

Last week she removed herself from our AT&T account to change carriers to Cricket Wireless. This was actually good for me because it removed the temptation of logging into see the records of who she was texting and calling. Of course, family money is still being used to pay for the new phone and carrier...

She also told me once a month ago or so when I caught her sexting and took her phone to read some of the messages that if I ever touched her phone again that she would break my fingers. Granted she was in a fit of rage from being exposed and violated, but the addiction and hold that device has on her in living out her fantasy is unreal. From what I read, the chemical sections that it can elicit are similar to a cocaine or heroin addiction. So, couple that with the dopamine and serotonin high of affairs and this condition is a monster to combat.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/17/19 01:12 PM
C,

What is the status of her moving out? The quicker she moves out the better.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/17/19 06:57 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
C,

What is the status of her moving out? The quicker she moves out the better.

Closing on the separation home is April 1st. Unlikely this is all some elaborate April Foolsí joke.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/17/19 07:00 PM
Originally Posted by Steve85
It isn't babysitting if its your own kids. Its called being their dad.

Babysitter was her word, not mine. I corrected her on that once before as it bothered me. I told her Iím not a babysitter to our own kids, Iím their father and Iíll be there for them.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/17/19 07:40 PM
Is she a SAHM?
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/17/19 11:46 PM
Originally Posted by sandi2
Is she a SAHM?


No, we are both professionals and have made a very nice life for ourselves with a beautiful home.

We live on several acres and she has a horse on site that she loves. The horse and large property are another area of her resentment towards me. When we bought the property and built the house about 4 years ago, I made her feel like I never wanted it. However, over the past year or so once we finally got everything established, Iíve really enjoyed living here. Friendly neighbors, convenient location to work and stores, and a quiet, peaceful environment.

At the end of December, she was trying to convince me to move out and find a rental. She said ďYou donít have a horse, why do you need the large property?Ē I replied to her ďWhy would I move out, Iíve found happiness here and our kids are comfortable here. This is our dream home we built together and I believe one day youíll come back.Ē A few days later she made the comment that I chose the house over what she wanted.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/18/19 01:34 PM
Yesterday morning while making pancakes for the kids my S was watching a YouTube of other people playing video games. Neither my W nor I can stand hearing the video game voice overs when we are in the room. I told him to turn it off and watch something else. He became upset and said itís not fair and that I get to watch sports whenever I want. Now, since BD, I have stopped watching sports almost completely, just lost most interest in it. Iím sure it will come back in time, but I wonít let it dominate my life.

My W then said to me ďIt is going take time to see that it is different.Ē I didnít know what she meant at first, but then came to the conclusion that my S hasnít recognized that Iíve stopped watching sports. Still, I couldnít help myself from thinking she had some other hidden meaning behind it. Such as perhaps she is noticing my personal changes and needs to continue to see them over an extended period of time to know they are genuine. Or perhaps the comment meant we are going to have to get used to a different lifestyle when the physical separation starts. I am probably reading too much into her words and should not try to analyze what she is saying.

I also finished up the exterior LED light project on the horse barn. My W asked me a couple times if I needed any helped and I said nope. When it was finished she seemed pleased, not sure why she cares if she has no long term intentions of staying here.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/18/19 02:03 PM
curtis, remember, believe NOTHING they say and only half of what they do. This goes for negative things ("I want a D!") as well as positive things ("I am so excited for the new LEDs").Remember, she is not even sure of herself in her own mind! I remember when my WW was at her most wayward, sexting and send nude photos to OM, she would still talk about things way out in future. It was confusing, but I also learned by experience, and by advice given here, to believe nothing that came out of her mouth. The reason for it sometimes is because they flat out lie, "There is no OM. He is just a friend. Etc." But mostly it because she has no idea if what she is saying is true herself!

My WW explained to me and in C that how she felt at any given minute could be completely different a minute later. Sometimes their words don't even make sense to them later. I witnessed that as my W slowly came out of her WW fog.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/18/19 03:17 PM
Originally Posted by Steve85
curtis, remember, believe NOTHING they say and only half of what they do.

So true, she told me she needs to babysit the divorced BFFís kids tonight, but Iíve already seen the hotel reservation for her hookup with the OM. Should I do anything or just let her go?
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/18/19 03:48 PM
Originally Posted by curtis7
Originally Posted by Steve85
curtis, remember, believe NOTHING they say and only half of what they do.

So true, she told me she needs to babysit the divorced BFFís kids tonight, but Iíve already seen the hotel reservation for her hookup with the OM. Should I do anything or just let her go?


How old are the BFFs kids?
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/18/19 03:48 PM
I know confronting her will only make it worse. I have to keep reminding myself that this is her choice and I canít control her. I have to let this run its course and she will either see it for the fantasy it is or she will end up sacrificing her family in the long run.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/18/19 03:50 PM
If BFF's kids are similar age, I'd say: "Can you take S8 and D4 over there with you? I have some things I need to do out tonight. I'll be glad to swing by later and pick them back up."
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/18/19 03:50 PM
Originally Posted by Steve85

How old are the BFFs kids?

BFF has D 10 and D 7
Sheís going back to the same hotel where the first betrayal took place.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/18/19 03:55 PM
Originally Posted by curtis7
Originally Posted by Steve85

How old are the BFFs kids?

BFF has D 10 and D 7
Sheís going back to the same hotel where the first betrayal took place.


I'd say: "Can you take S8 and D4 over there with you? I have some things I need to do out tonight. I'll be glad to swing by later and pick them back up."
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/18/19 04:05 PM
Originally Posted by Steve85

I'd say: "Can you take S8 and D4 over there with you? I have some things I need to do out tonight. I'll be glad to swing by later and pick them back up."

Yeah, my kids and the BFFís kids regularly play together. Do you really think this will help? Iím sure sheíll come up with some excuse why she wonít want to take them. What would the goal be in this situation?
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/18/19 04:17 PM
Originally Posted by curtis7
Originally Posted by Steve85

I'd say: "Can you take S8 and D4 over there with you? I have some things I need to do out tonight. I'll be glad to swing by later and pick them back up."

Yeah, my kids and the BFFís kids regularly play together. Do you really think this will help? Iím sure sheíll come up with some excuse why she wonít want to take them. What would the goal be in this situation?


The goal would be to see how she handles this "wrinkle" in her lie. If she is going to babysit there would be NO reason for her to not take the kids with her. It is not an unreasonable request. What it might do is make her realize that a) her lies are not that great and b) you aren't as dumb as she thinks you are.

curtis, I know I've been telling you not to confront, just to worry about you. And in general I still feel that way. But something that hit me catching up on your situation was something I read from another anti-D author. A woman she was consulting with that was cheating on her husband during their separation couldn't believe how DUMB her H was for not knowing she was cheating. Remember, the key to getting your W back is to attract her back. You have to become more attractive than OM, or leaving. The key to that is to COMMAND respect. Do you think she respects you if she has the perspective of the woman I mentioned above?

So while my advice isn't strictly DBing according to the rules, it is time you start calling her on some of her bluffs. When my W was a WW, one of the things she used to do was drop my daugher off at school, on days I was home, and then sit in the parking lot for, sometimes, hours. Sexting. Texting OM. Etc.

One day, after a 2 hour trip to drop my D off at school, which should have taken 15 minutes, I said, "What were you doing?!?" She was like: "Oh, well, and started to give all kinds of excuses as to why she was gone so long. I looked her dead in the eye and said: "You know, I am not stupid." That's all I said. She brought that moment up several times in the days and weeks that followed. She knew I knew more than she originally thought I did.

curtis, maybe my suggestion isn't the right approach. I think I am just having a moment of empathizing with you because I remember when I was there. And that I wanted to do something to let her know I wasn't that dumb.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/18/19 04:27 PM
C,

I am going to be very blunt here. At some point your going to let your balls drop and let her know by ACTIONS that her going to a hotel with another dude DOES NOT work for you.

Since she is moving out I would start packing her $hit and moving it into the garage.

If she asks why all her $hit is boxed and in the garage. You look her in the eye and say "you know why" and then walk away.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/18/19 04:43 PM
I have discovered each of her previous PAís. She should know Iím not stupid. Every time she kept prying to obtain all the details on how I found out so she could prevent that discovery method in the future. Tonightís PA is the first Iíve learned of in advance.

Iím really torn on this, if I take a hard stance, then I fear sheíll go straight to the divorce lawyer to file as she is that far checked out from the marriage and so strongly addicted to the fantasy.

If I let it play out, then it may run its course and could lose its excitement when it turns from an A into a R.

I have to say my level of shock and feelings toward what she is doing arenít affecting me nearly as much as they have in the past. I am becoming more numb to her waywardness. I clearly see she is not the woman I married.

I have a few hours to decide until she is off work.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/18/19 04:51 PM
Originally Posted by curtis7
Iím really torn on this, if I take a hard stance, then I fear sheíll go straight to the divorce lawyer to file as she is that far checked out from the marriage and so strongly addicted to the fantasy.

What you fear you attract. If she is going to file for a D then she is going to file for a D. Doesn't matter jack whether you recon or not. She will be pi$$ed at you but she will respect you. If she respects you she can fall in love with you again. Even if all the As run their course, she will not come back to a doormat.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/18/19 04:56 PM
Originally Posted by curtis7
I have discovered each of her previous PAís. She should know Iím not stupid. Every time she kept prying to obtain all the details on how I found out so she could prevent that discovery method in the future. Tonightís PA is the first Iíve learned of in advance.

Iím really torn on this, if I take a hard stance, then I fear sheíll go straight to the divorce lawyer to file as she is that far checked out from the marriage and so strongly addicted to the fantasy.

If I let it play out, then it may run its course and could lose its excitement when it turns from an A into a R.

I have to say my level of shock and feelings toward what she is doing arenít affecting me nearly as much as they have in the past. I am becoming more numb to her waywardness. I clearly see she is not the woman I married.

I have a few hours to decide until she is off work.


If she isn't the woman you married, why the fear of her going to a lawyer and filing? What we fear most is what we end up creating. You standing up for yourself may be what prevents the D. Trust me, women do not stay with a man they do not respect.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/18/19 05:42 PM
Another concern I have if I rock the boat before she closes on her separation house April 1st and officially moves out is that sheíll go ballistic and fight to keep our primary house in D.

I like the idea of asking her to take the kids with her tonight.

Any other thoughts / recommendations?
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/18/19 08:09 PM
Originally Posted by Steve85

I'd say: "Can you take S8 and D4 over there with you? I have some things I need to do out tonight. I'll be glad to swing by later and pick them back up."

Text sent, awaiting her response...
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/18/19 08:13 PM
Originally Posted by curtis7
Originally Posted by Steve85

I'd say: "Can you take S8 and D4 over there with you? I have some things I need to do out tonight. I'll be glad to swing by later and pick them back up."

Text sent, awaiting her response...

She replied ďDonít start. I know what you are doing. Ask your parents. They are only 5 mins away. Or wait until tomorrow night.Ē
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/18/19 08:17 PM
Originally Posted by curtis7
Originally Posted by curtis7
Originally Posted by Steve85

I'd say: "Can you take S8 and D4 over there with you? I have some things I need to do out tonight. I'll be glad to swing by later and pick them back up."

Text sent, awaiting her response...

She replied ďDonít start. I know what you are doing. Ask your parents. They are only 5 mins away. Or wait until tomorrow night.Ē


H:"I will. Just wanted to give you the option first. Thanks for the quick response."
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/18/19 08:23 PM
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Originally Posted by curtis7
Originally Posted by curtis7
Originally Posted by Steve85

I'd say: "Can you take S8 and D4 over there with you? I have some things I need to do out tonight. I'll be glad to swing by later and pick them back up."

Text sent, awaiting her response...

She replied ďDonít start. I know what you are doing. Ask your parents. They are only 5 mins away. Or wait until tomorrow night.Ē


H:"I will. Just wanted to give you the option first. Thanks for the quick response."

Reply sent, thanks R2C!!
W replied: ďThey just saw them last week!!Ē
Posted By: LH19 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/18/19 08:31 PM
Originally Posted by curtis7
Another concern I have if I rock the boat before she closes on her separation house April 1st and officially moves out is that sheíll go ballistic and fight to keep our primary house in D.

Trust me she will want the quickest way out and that will be her moving out.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/18/19 08:31 PM
Originally Posted by curtis7
W replied: ďThey just saw them last week!!Ē


Do not respond to this one.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/18/19 08:32 PM
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
She replied ďDonít start. I know what you are doing. Ask your parents. They are only 5 mins away. Or wait until tomorrow night.Ē

I would say "yeah, and I know what your doing".
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/18/19 08:32 PM

Now you need to ask your parents.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/18/19 08:42 PM
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Originally Posted by curtis7
W replied: ďThey just saw them last week!!Ē

Do not respond to this one.

Didnít and wasnít planning to, she just sent another pulling the divorced BFF into the fray of deception and web of lies.
W: ďI just asked BFF. She said D 7 is sick and not a good idea.Ē
Not responding to this one either.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/18/19 08:43 PM
Originally Posted by Ready2Change

Now you need to ask your parents.

Yep, now Iíve got plans for tonight...
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/18/19 08:49 PM

If needed, this works:

H:"Made arrangements with my parents. Don't worry about it any more."


The last part is important. She will start to think about the decision she just made. She will start to worry about it.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/18/19 08:54 PM
Originally Posted by Ready2Change

If needed, this works:

H:"Made arrangements with my parents. Don't worry about it any more."

The last part is important. She will start to think about the decision she just made. She will start to worry about it.

Love it!! Sent.

She replied ďOkayĒ and ďAre they gonna be there when I swing by home to feed my horse?Ē

Not sure how to respond, Should I take them and leave before she gets home?
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/18/19 09:29 PM


H:"We will be leaving at X:15PM"
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/18/19 09:59 PM
Originally Posted by Ready2Change

H:"We will be leaving at X:15PM"

She got home a half hour ago. I had just taken a shower and got dressed, looking really sharp, with a drop of cologne.

She started asking me questions like are you going out, are you meeting someone? I just said I was invited to go do something.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/18/19 10:02 PM
perfect
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/18/19 10:12 PM
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
perfect

Should I say anything when she leaves or should I leave first?
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/18/19 10:49 PM
Originally Posted by curtis7
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
perfect

Should I say anything when she leaves or should I leave first?

She left and just called me on her way there, here was the exchange:
WW: ďWhat the F is going on?Ē She had rage in her voice.
LBH: ďI donít know what you mean, help me understand.Ē
LBH: ďIím busy, can we talk about this another time.Ē
WW: ďNo, we need to talk about this now.Ē
LBH: ďI would like to talk another time when youíre not so upset.Ē
WW: ďWhen Iím not upset? When you Fín stalk me?Ē
LBH: ďIím sorry, help me understand what you mean by that?Ē
WW: ďBye, CurtisĒ in a condescending tone and hung up.

This must be how she amps herself up for a late night tryst. Making LBH out to be the enemy.

Any recommended action to take after this?
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/18/19 10:56 PM


Just let it be. I like how you responded.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/18/19 11:00 PM
Pack her $hit and move it into the garage. That will show her you know whatís going on and you wonít put up with her bull $hit.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/18/19 11:08 PM
Originally Posted by Ready2Change

Just let it be. I like how you responded.

Will do, Iím out to dinner and going to enjoy a nice meal. Feeling pretty good about myself right now. I would say she definitely noticed this 180, but it might just send her over the edge.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/18/19 11:10 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
Pack her $hit and move it into the garage. That will show her you know whatís going on and you wonít put up with her bull $hit.

HaHa LH19...still not ready to take that leap.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/18/19 11:16 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
Pack her $hit and move it into the garage. That will show her you know whatís going on and you wonít put up with her bull $hit.
That is what I would do.


Do not reveal WHAT you know.

Do not reveal HOW you know.


Just reveal that you DO know.

H:"STOP, we both know you are lying" Hold eye contact.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/18/19 11:24 PM
I know but unfortunately you are going to deeply regret it down the road.
Posted By: ovrrnbw Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/18/19 11:39 PM
I know how you feel Curtis. I've been there and done that. LH is right, she is so disrespectful. You need to have the "pack your stuff and move out mentality". And that's easy for me to say and harder for me to do. So don't take me the wrong way please.

I still get that nervous, uneasy feeling. I don't want to go home. In a lot of ways, I don't want my W to be there. This stuff eats away at you, and I am sorry for myself that I didn't face my fears sooner. Some here would say I still haven't faced them. Good luck man.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/19/19 01:21 AM
Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
I know how you feel Curtis. I've been there and done that. LH is right, she is so disrespectful. You need to have the "pack your stuff and move out mentality". And that's easy for me to say and harder for me to do. So don't take me the wrong way please.
"I will enthusiastically HELP YOU pack up your stuff mentality"

Easy to say hard to do. The harder it is to do, the more it is the right thing to do.

Pick any mantra that sounds good to you:

"I do not want to be with a woman who does not want to be with me"

"I want to be with a woman who want to be ONLY with me"

"I will not share my woman with another man"


Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/19/19 01:24 AM
Wow, packing her $hit is quite the consensus. A close friend recommended the same. Itís tempting, but I keep thinking of the kids. Iím not ready to expose them to all of this yet.

In spite of her choices, I still love the woman deeply, but Iím not allowing her words and actions to have as much of an emotional impact on me anymore.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/19/19 01:43 AM
W just texted: ďI will be staying at divorced BFFís the remainder of the week.Ē

Sounds informational, does it warrant a response? I guess that means I am with kids everyday?
Posted By: Twofeet Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/19/19 01:53 AM
Originally Posted by curtis7
Wow, packing her $hit is quite the consensus. A close friend recommended the same. Itís tempting, but I keep thinking of the kids. Iím not ready to expose them to all of this yet.

In spite of her choices, I still love the woman deeply, but Iím not allowing her words and actions to have as much of an emotional impact on me anymore.


You don't love W, you love who you thought W was. She is not who you thought she was. The more disrespectful the sitch is on here the firmer the LBS should be. Start with having respect for yourself.

Go read NMMNG
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/19/19 01:56 AM

H:"Enjoy!"
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/19/19 02:04 AM
Get everything out of master bedroom that you do not want. Box it up and put it in the garage.


Start going through the house and identifying things you do not want. Obviously you do not want her clothes. Box them up and clearly write clothes on the box. Put it in the garage.


Treat her stuff like it was your stuff. Respectfully.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/19/19 02:48 AM
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
"I will enthusiastically HELP YOU pack up your stuff mentality"

Easy to say hard to do. The harder it is to do, the more it is the right thing to do.

Pick any mantra that sounds good to you:

"I do not want to be with a woman who does not want to be with me"

"I want to be with a woman who want to be ONLY with me"

"I will not share my woman with another man"

I understand the mentality and packing her stuff is a definite 180. I refer back to my notes from Divorce Remedy. Michele recommended that we keep the following question in mind, "Is what I'm about to do going to bring me closer or bring farther away from my goal?" Michele also says timing is everything and you must be patient.

Are there examples of others that have taken this step and were successful in having their W reconcile?
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/19/19 03:21 AM
Originally Posted by curtis7
Are there examples of others that have taken this step and were successful in having their W reconcile?
I am not sure if steve85 did this, but I believe he said he would now.
Posted By: curtis7 Re: Persistent Endurance - 03/19/19 03:46 AM
Link to Part 2:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2842502#Post2842502
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