Marriage and depression - part 3

Divorcebusting.com

Part 1 - http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2835051&page=1
Part 2 - http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2840251&page=1

Thanks for your help, guys....and I do not mean this sarcastically. No response was the answer as to what to do. I did not comment at all on WW's messages and I won't. Yea, she may be upset about what I post online, but at the root it is her behavior. She's cheating and I am supposed to adhere to all the highest standards? Nope. That is unfair. And of course she sees things differently, otherwise we would not be in this hell hole. What would arguing accomplish? Nothing!

As long as she clings to the past and complains about how bad it / I was there is no point in talking. Once she wants to focus on the present and future we get somewhere.

In other news, started Wellbutrin, makes me dizzy, have a head cold, and otherwise I feel like absolutely total crappy [censored]. Nice thing was when I got home from game night yesterday I still had to make cole slaw for today and S13 was there and helped me. He kept asking if I am OK and I had a hard time answering that question. No, I am not OK, but that isn't something he should be concerned with.
Send S17 instructions on what to do for the unlikely event that Wellbutrin induces seizures. One of my coworkers has epilepsy and after having talked to a person from Australia (back when I thought being a listener on 7cups would be good for me) I asked him about it and what to do if he ever has a seizure. Roll him on the side, stick a pen or something else that is hard between his teeth to avoid biting off the tongue, call 911. I mentioned it also to my boss who was surprisingly appreciative of me telling him.
Speaking of work, promotion is in the cards again, will know by the end of the month. Work overall is progressing slowly. What else? Idiot me booked car state inspection for 8AM on Saturday and S13 wants a hair cut, so we will do that on Saturday as well.Got my Google Fi SIM, will switch over tonight, want to take a backup of my phone first, ya never know.

Dave,

How is the Wellbutrin going for you?

Regarding your letter, its nice to type out for yourself, just don't give it to your W. No pursuit.

Your W response about being bored, lonely etc... its simple and says a lot. you're W won't hear you, not like you want to be heard.

No more accidentally leaving stuff out for her to read either, this has a negative and opposite effect from what rational people would think. She is not in that mindset.

If yesterday wasn't better than the day before, don't worry there are more days ahead to try and get it right or better than the last. One day, it will get better. Patience, young grasshoppa. Patience.

You're busy so that's good. Give it a chance. Keep GAL and DB.

Adam,

I didn't leave stuff out on purpose. It was a lapse in securing what I post.

As far as I can tell, W stopped drinking. Today she offered to get dinner ready and said she will be doing the grocery shopping this weekend. She also proposed a plan on how to split up dinner responsibilities going forward now that she will be working soon.

The past weeks and months she would not have announced such plans or suggested anything like that. Having the job come up is a motivator and without the alc a major depressant is gone.

The way she interacted with me about the dinner and grocery stuff is on a level I can accept. Talked to my therapist today and he said it might be good idea to give her a small token of appreciation when she starts her new job. Reward "good" behavior and retreat when that changes.

I'm on my second day of Wellbutrin. Totally ineffective, I still have all my problems and my pay did not increase.

Just kidding....first day I got a bit dizzy...and I got a 3% raise. As far as Wellbutrin improving anything, that is too early to tell.

Have to give kudos to W...I guess. Yesterday she messaged me and asked about Friday night dinner plans. I told her that I asked S17 to heat up lasagna rolls. S17 forgot so I had to do it, but at least they were quick. W also messaged me this "I want to drink tonight. I think it is an ok compromise to drink on a Friday/Saturday night. I don't see anything wrong with that. Would you be flaming mad?"
Last time she got wasted it was S17 who got flaming mad, not me. She also doesn't ask for my approval on things that matter far more than drinking beer. I also have no control over what she does. So after the constructive "what do we eat" exchange I went back to dark and didn't mark that message as seen until after I got home (phone has preview of last message, but that does not mark them as read) and did not respond. There is nothing I can say about that topic. If she'd ask me directly I would have told her to think about how she wants to be seen and remembered by our sons.
So I expected the 30 pack in the hallway or some special beers in the office or something like that. But there was nothing. Instead she bought a 12 pack of flavored seltzer water. OK, I don't know if she has a secret stash of booze somewhere. By the time I got home around 5:30 she was already in bed. Knowing from my father in law how he coped with depression spells, sleeping a lot is not uncommon. While sleeping you don't feel depressed. Since we all have a cold of some sorts it could also be that she took a good swig of NyQuil...with the 10% of alc it might have taken the edge off a bit as well.

She promised again to die S13's hair. I take him for a haircut today. So we will see. Had plans to meet with hobby authors this afternoon, but that got postponed until Tuesday at 5 when I cannot go. Kinda bummed about that. I think I will take the laptop my son lent me to the mall and sit in the food court tonight. I have a poem I want to construct and with nothing else now planned that sounds like a good alternative.

Now off to get state inspection for my car. Idiot me booked the 8AM appointment.

There is no winning in responding to her question about drinking. You say have a drink, well now you are complicit. You say don't drink, you're mean and controlling. Some of those seltzer waters have booze in them. My W has had several long spells where she just laid in bed, it's definitely a behavior exhibited by depressed people.

And haha the 8 AM on Saturday?! Dang...

I need to check out the Google Fi thing too. I read about it a while back when you posted it.

Hi ovrrnbw!

The seltzer that she bought has no alc in it. I only knew about it because S13 was coming upstairs on last night and said that W told him that he can have some of the seltzer.

8AM wasn't the worst about it...the 400$ price tag for the front breaks was a surprise. Both cars are automatics, so having to fix the breaks constantly is the price of the convenience. But I never cheaped out on breaks and tires. Dents and scratches I can care less about it....my life, not so much.

Took S17 to the post office so that he could mail the package to his friend in Australia. Took S13 for a hair cut, came out really nice. W has a cold and sore throat and some other issue I didn't inquire about (frequent visits to the bedroom with her pants off and spells in the bathroom....I don't even want to know). So I offered to do the grocery shopping and she agreed only that I go and get things for today. She will do it tomorrow because she said she will do it. Yes! Wow! That is a change, especially if she indeed goes out tomorrow and does it. So I got some soda, milk, frozen pizza, and that was about it.

I wonder if the next weeks are a great opportunity. At least I will try hard to pick up more chores around the house. The bathrooms are now starting to become a health risk, so I have to clean them. Already cleaned the range hood, but there is a corner behind the stove that starts to turn into a grease pit. Even the cat won't go there to get her toys. That will be for tomorrow, especially when W and S17 are out at the store.
Taking on those extra tasks might just show what weight I can and do carry around here when I am away for two weeks. If not, then not, at least the place is clean.

Seems as W still takes Escitalopram....pharmacy called twice that it is ready for pickup and she told me how convoluted the process was to get the refill.

Or is this really only because she stopped drinking? Not having your head fogged up for half the day surely could make a difference. Maybe it is also that she will start her job soon. Anyway, I am happy for her and the more she feels better and has more self-value the less she probably blames me for all the evil in the world. Even if not, it can only be better for her.

I wait a tad longer and the take a trip to the mall to start my writing. Somewhat tired, but I want to move on the idea I have in mind. When I get back I will sort in some stamps, even if it is only a few. It will give me a sense of accomplishment.

For those interested...Computerworld has a nice article about the special things that come with Google Fi:
https://www.computerworld.com/article/3323068/google-fi-project-fi.html

What sold me on it is that I finally have voicemail on my smartphone, unlimited text, no contract, works with my el-cheapo phone, price, and that it will work in Germany. Calling will not be unlimited in Germany and the cost of 20c/minute is not cheap, but for the few calls I expect to make ti will work fine. Nice thing, texting will still be free and unlimited even abroad, data will cost the same (10$/GB, but only charges the amount used down to 1MB increments or sth). The SIM is for free (unlike others), activation took three tries, but eventually worked. And for reasons unknown to me I am in for a 20$ credit for using a referral code. No idea what they are talking about, but when Google gives me 20$ I don't ask too many questions.
It is a Google service and they will collect data about you, but that happens with any Android phone already. Fi is also available for iPhones.

OK, commercial is over, resume the scheduled programming.

Weekend was not bad. W never talked about drinking again, but more about things she needs and wants to do in the future. Yea, mostly chores and appointments, but she didn't used to think that far ahead. She did go to the store today, did not make it to the second store, but that's OK. She said she does not feel well and will go to the second store tomorrow. She has to go to the DMV anyway, her license will expire soon and although the reminders come in for quite a while she didn't go. Tomorrow is her last chance because she won't get time off from work for the next six months.
While I was at the gym she sent me a message asking quite nicely if I can get her NyQuil. I did not respond, but did go to the store (right next to the gym) and got her that stuff. She does have a nasty cold with a lot of coughing, but I also wonder if that is her means to get her hands on at least a wee bit of alc. But even if she downs the whole bottle, the 10% alc in that smaller amount are a heckuva lot less than what she used to take in.
Made veggie and chicken soup tonight. Went rather heavy on the veggies. Has kale, california blend, and shredded brussel sprouts in it. I added a good dose of potato and barley. W brought mini tortellinis from the store and those were indeed a really nice addition. The chicken was doused in paprika, pepper, smoked salt, and garlic powder. On its own it was already darn good. I made sure that I rinsed out all the tasty bits from the pan into the stock pot with the soup.

Now my limbs are hurting from gym and cooking. Sitting here eating chips, drinking fruit punch, and listening to Guano Apes.

Wow! After typing the last sentence this thought parked itself in my mind: Life is good!

Sounds like a good day. Don't let you expectations get too high or you're setting yourself up for a let down.

My expectations are the same as they were before. Had too many times where it seemed to get better just to go the other way. It's a long journey...and one swallow does not make summer.

Forgot to hit post reply, but case in point now a day later....W promised to make dinner and said she would get her license renewed....she did neither. Still had leftover soup from yesterday, so at least there was food. I asked the kids what they had for dinner. S13 said he got himself some cereal, S17 didn't have anything. She did offer S13 a can of tuna...wow! Thanks mom!
She told me that it is OK to get a license even after 2 years of it expiring. I think that is correct for the document itself, but you can still get a ticket for driving with an expired license. In NY it costs 40$ up to 60 days after expiration, after that it is up to 300$ fine. And it isn't as if she not only knew that it expires soon, that she won't be able to go once she starts the job, and...the real kicker here....she sat on ass for months. Did she really lose all attachment to reality or does she just not care about anything anymore? Maddening!

So although today was otherwise an OK day, I feel angry and disappointed. And yes, S13 still has no pink hair. Do I really need to that myself? Will see next weekend. Have to aim for Sunday, S17 was invited to a birthday party and he needs a ride....and a birthday present.

I think I read in DR that depression is a distorted view of reality with a compounding effect. She really did lose some attachment to reality IMO but also I think she does not care about as much as she used to. Anyways, I know how that can really get you worked up.

She did get to her job and was rather happy about it. I went with the suggestion of my therapist and gave her the earrings that I bought a while back. She really was surprised and happy about it, then ran up the stairs to put them on. They are small 14k gold unicorns, she loves unicorns.
Given where she was three months ago and where she is right now, I think she deserved it. But this is not a new beginning or change in direction or anything. I gave her a break today since her grandmother died, although, she seemed rather untouched by that.
She did cook dinner and it was damn tasty. I will thank her for it tomorrow morning. First need to figure out what S13 is whining about, then off to the gym....and then to bed, I am beat.

Past days were quite busy. Work is killer right now, but I try to keep it as close to normal times as I can. WW is going to her job now and as it turns out, we sit in the living room in the mornings, drink coffee, and talk. The cats help us with feeding us topics. I very much enjoy that and it is her who stops looking at the computer and coming over. I read in the morning and as soon as she sits down I put my magazine away.
Had free lunch at work Thursday and potluck yesterday, so that was a nice change. Last night I went out to a concert. Unforgettable Fire, a U2 cover band, played at the casino in downtown and as casino rewards card member I got a free ticket. They really did a very good job turning the big ballroom into a concert venue. I was one of the youngest there. I didn't feel like going in front of the stage, so I sat a few rows back and just enjoyed the music. On my way back I stopped for one beer and then went home. I had fun. The band is excellent.
Shoe shopping today, I need new ones for a while, but wanted to wait until the snow season is over. S13 needs new ones as well, S17 of course pooped all over my offer....whatever. He is excited, he got an invitation to a birthday party, so I have to drive him there and pick him up a few hours later.
Gym tomorrow and I likely will take the laptop again to the mall food court and work on a new writing project. I had the idea to wrap the word "depression" in a poem and it turned out quite nicely. While talking to my therapist he said that one of the emotions he thinks is the most interesting is "disappointment". So I will use that for my next writing project and keep tackling emotions and feelings such as anger, pain, anxiety, happiness. I plan to follow the same approach I used for the "Depression" poem. For a very long time I will have something worthy of publishing.

Took S13 shoe shopping for both of us and he was a good sport. I could see that he was bored, but I was too. That is why I always buy two pairs so that I have to do this only once a year. He really liked the red and black Nike shoes, but all the boxes in his size were empty. Apparently, people have the nerve to put the new shoes on and walk out the store. They had them in all black, so he went with those. They have laces, so I guess he has to leave the 80s behind and say good bye to velcro.
When we got home I saw WW walking through the back door with a plastic bag with a big blue box. She noticed that we were there and had the nerve to shut the door and lock it, just to stall us long enough so that we didn't see that she bought beer. Soon after she realized that it was a rather stupid move. When I came in she said "I am drinking beer, sue me!" I didn't say anything.

S13 wanted pizza for dinner and he got it out of the wrapper, put it on the baking plate, turned the oven on...and then we heard screaming. Trying to put it into the oven he tilted the baking plate too much and the whole pizza took nosedive into the oven spilling the pepperoni into the burner. W and I fixed it, the kitchen was full of smoke, so I opened the windows, and eventually the smoke detector did its job as well. After all was done W and I had to laugh. So this goes as the Big Pizza Crisis of 2019 into the books.

Overall I am wobbling between feeling OK and being really lonely. I have to see that I pick activities that are not that destined for happy couples hanging out, just depresses the heck out of me. Oh well, all things pass eventually, the good and the bad.

In rough shape these days....things went not to bad. W is still going to work, we talk for a bit in the morning while drinking coffee (she starts the conversation, not me), arrange the household chores fairly....and then Monday night came. I saw that she had that Indian jewelry on again and it just killed me. I really felt a sharp pain in my heart, it crushed my soul, and it ripped open all those wounds that seemed to have healed a bit.
Since then I just coast through the day, can't sleep, can't concentrate, have no interest in anything...and forcing myself to think about something else takes the last bit of energy out of me.

I really don't know how long I can deal with this. I don't know how to get her out of my mind, how to stop loving her, how to find any joy. Overall things are not bad, they are good actually. I get a lot of support from friends, but in the end they can only listen, maybe give some advice, but they cannot change anything.Nobody knows how to fix it.
I feel helpless that I am so controlled by these wants and beliefs, the desires and wishes, this self defeating thinking. And I am so damn lonely.

I try and do so damn hard, but it's no use. I feel guilty for thinking that if she just changes her mind we could have a damn good life together, have a really great family, wake up each day and smile. It drives me insane that I cannot understand why she would not want that.

I guess you read enough. You cannot fix it either nor hand me a manual of what to do next. I am not asking for a genie in a bottle or potion #9. All that isn't even the most pressing thing. I don't know how to feel better and wonder if there is any point in trying. Is there even a point in living? What for? What gave me a reason to breathe was taken from me and I will never get it back.

Dave,

it takes a long time to heal from this pain. I'm 1 year post BD and when I saw the priest who married us today I about lost it. Time and work will help you heal. But I understand how that stupid jewelry would make you feel like that. I was like you for a long time, just coasting, not concentrating. It gets better when you decide it gets better, otherwise you just drift and nothing changes. Which is what our W's are doing.

Stop sign technique to get her out of your mind. You have to control those thoughts the best you can. You have to commit to that mental strength. Nobody can change anything, nobody can fix it, nobody can make her be the person you want her to be. Feeling helpless can be liberating when you decide to look at it in a positive light. When you let go of that, you can focus on some other positive outlet.

These emotions come in swings. They go high and they go low, you need to try to be even keeled.

I'm really sorry man. I wish I could take away your pain. Have you ever read any of the older poster's threads? Allen A? Puppydogtails? I'd recommend it. There are some different and refreshing perspectives there.

Dave,

Sorry to hear that you�re going thru this right now. It is indeed very sad what happens and very difficult to deal with. There is no way around it, no sugar coating, no trick, no secret formula. It is very draining. That is why it is important for you to take care of yourself. Rest well, as good as you can, take some sleep meds if you have to, and eat well. Continue to work out. Continue to GAL even when you don�t want to. I know you don�t see it now, but in time you will get through this. For now, take it one day at a time ,one step at a time.

Dave, listen to yourself. I know it�s tough, but you don�t give up. Don�t start thinking it�s the end of the world because you�re lonely and you�re throwing all your attention onto your wife. You have your boys... have you read posts here from other men focusing their attention on their kids rather than their wife? You�ve been awesome doing things with them and for them. Continue that.

It seems like you hit a slump and are on a downward cycle, so breathe... give yourself some time and be kind to yourself. You know this is not healthy but instead you are putting the responsibility of your happiness on your wife. It�s ultimately up to you.

It�s late, I also struggle with sleep and my boys are both in bed with me right now. Dave, in another month my kids will be shuffling back and forth as I move to an apartment so I do understand the hurt. My S6 today asked us to all hug as a family so this will be very tough for him. Instead of wasting my energy and blaming my W, I�m doing the best I can for them. My W wants to be happy and I want that for her. We had a good 25 years but life will go on. The sooner I can let go, the sooner I can dictate my own happiness.

Life is all about choices, some you can control and others you can�t control. I want to encourage you to put in the work to be happy again as you once were.

ovrrnbw, Adam - thanks for your responses. I am doing better now. I will look for the old threads and read. In the self-help group on FB I also read a few stories where after a very long time things got better and that the couples found to each other again. It's nice to know that it isn't totally impossible.

Yesterday W came over to where I am sitting in the morning and we had a really good talk. Now that she works as health insurance claims processor we talk about how services get paid and she mentioned that there is still a drastic difference in coverage of mental health care versus regular health care although that is not allowed by law. Eventually we got to talk about our therapists and that we are happy with them and further down the conversation I told her that I went to a psychiatrist and that two doctors diagnosed me with MDD and that I take Wellbutrin. It wasn't really a secret. I keep the orange pill bottle in my lunch bag that hangs off a chair in the kitchen.
I do enjoy the talks we have in the morning and I think she does as well. I am the only one she can talk to about her new job, maybe some of her online friends. I doubt that OM would understand anything about it. So I make extra effort to listen to what she says and ask question about things, showing a genuine interest. It is nice to see how she perked up with working full time now. Sure, she complained that some of the training was boring, but they soon will get to process claims with someone sitting next to them to help. Eventually she has to do 40 claims a day, which is easily doable.
She got paid for the first time and to my surprise she has the money deposited in the shared account. She said that she wants to focus on paying off her CC debt (which is substantial, but not unmanageable). She bought a few new clothes for work, which is perfectly fine and it was nothing super fancy and expensive. I like that, so I decided that I will keep my contributions at the same level, including paying for her school loan. She wants to tackle this and I want to support her in her effort. She also takes the kids out once in a while, so that will cover things like that.
She did ask about the tax return and wondered if I need any more help. I told her that I got the money back a month ago and used it to pay off other debt, which I did. Finances are stabilizing, so good on that part.

Work sucked the past week and once I just lost it. One of the development managers was complaining that the task list was unmanageable because there are so many bug reports. I responded that this is self-inflicted and that did not go over too well. My boss was not pleased, but I told him that I really have no sympathy for such complaints, especially since the initial quality of the code I get is rather dismal. The entire department is under a lot of stress and top management demands that we work faster, but that just generates more errors that QA reports on or that get picked up by customer since QA doesn't get enough time to test properly. I understand that me getting all snippy doesn't help, but I am in a rather rough spot anyway. I am the only one who is well qualified to test all products we sell. So I get to do everything and I work on three teams although I am not a member on any of them. Each team operates vastly different and they all seem to think that I am available 100% for them. On Monday we start with regression tests before release and that is already stress pure, but before we start all new development has to get completed. I got the last stuff on Thursday and it was not working right, so last fixes came on Friday. We also move to a new test environment that is a tad more annoying to use and was not functional when I left on Friday. I can only hope that magic happens and we can go on Monday. I doubt it, and the time lost does not get added at the end. So before we even started we are already behind. Sadly, this is nothing new, it happens each time and I stopped counting how many times I complained about it and made reasonable suggestions on how to improve process.
It used to be that I could just go home and find a stress-free environment, but I no longer have that buffer. So it is rather difficult to find a means to let go, forget, and relax.

Talked to the therapist about this as well and my spouts with feeling really angry. He gave some good advice, but above all he really pulled me off the vertex going down. Very much appreciated that.

GAL is continuing. Today I went to another meetup where we mimic TED talks. Basically, anyone can do a presentation about anything. The organizer did a presentation about how cultural upbringing influences our values and beliefs and how that mental model influences what we accept as truth. His presentation was not that great, but the topic was interesting. I gave a presentation about stamps and stamp collecting, people seemed to like it. Well, how often do you get to smell a strawberry stamp from Germany that smells like strawberries. It was recorded and will go on YouTube eventually....I did put the nice shirt on.

Made pizza for everyone, W even got up for that. In about half an hour I go and see Walpurgis again. That is the band my coworker plays in. They play a pub that is about 20 minutes away...and since I have nothing else planned for tonight.

Tomorrow I will finally go for it and give my son some pink hair. So that will be interesting. Other than that...found my interest in Therapy? again....I just love their sound and their somewhat interesting lyrics.

S13 has pink hair now. It was a nice cooperation, I bleached, W dyed. Was an interesting Sunday anyway. For the first time she asked me where I went. I was out late yesterday to see the band of my coworker. I told W and mentioned the other cover band my coworker plays in. They will play again on April 6th and I will mention it to her when the date comes closer. Would be nice to go out with her again....will see. She said that she wants to do something fun outside the house and it can only be good for her. When I left the library yesterday after my presentation I felt really good. I prepared for about an hour on Friday and took some handwritten notes. For the most part I was winging it, but I love giving presentations. Well, it was more a show and tell, but that is why they liked it. Even being at the pub until midnight left me in a good mood...and I only had one beer.
Made antipasta pasta salad...a pain in the rear to make, but so worth it. W liked it, but right after having some she went downstairs. I so wished she would have stayed a bit longer. So what is left on a Sunday? Eating my salad, listening to Therapy?, and probably will finally repair my monitor. It flickers when turning on and I know why, already got the repair kit for it. Same issue with my other monitor of the same make and model.
Next two weeks will be killer at work, a lot to do and no time. I will still go home on time. I used to be so driven to get the work done that I would work nights and weekends, something W resents a lot. She is right, it really didn't get me anywhere. This is what happens when work ethic and pride turn into a runaway train.
Odd...I feel sad and happy at the same time. On Thursday W accidentally (?) called me "sweetie" and told me today that she will do the opposite of what we tell her. She was at first joking around with S13, but she kept repeating it. Not sure what exactly she wanted to tell me there....maybe nothing.

Haha pink hair? Never would I ever!

Maybe don't share all the details with W? Maybe just say you were out with friends? Or maybe saying it the way you did is who you are and I'm not here to change you.

Sometimes those longer, more involved meals are fun. I really enjoy cooking that way. I looked up a beef and barley stew recipe the other day, inspired by one of your posts. And the weather here is warming, but we still have cold evenings which inspire comfort food for me. Good job on fixing some stuff too. Fixing and building things really keeps the mind occupied and productive. It's such a positive in our situations.

I like the work/life balance you speak of too. Making good use of your time at work can go a long way too. Hard to understand what your W really meant, but you know well enough at this point to not read into it too much. Nice update Dave, hope your week goes well.

ovrrnbw - S13 likes his pink hair and it really looks nice and "punky".
As far as telling W, I think it made clear to her that I am seeking entertainment and joy without her. Not sure if she wants to go any of the pub concerts, the next one I plan on going to is on the 6th and with my coworkers other band which I actually like better than the Black Sabbath covers. I will mention it to her once and then that's it.
On Friday I will meet up with a few people from a local FB group. It used to be a singles social group, but even the founders are now married and they changed it to be simply a social group. Online they are very funny, let's see how they are in person.

This morning I saw her bracelet again and the tattoo and I just had to leave. I grabbed what I could find quickly for lunch and essentially bolted out the door. My whole body was shaking and my mind was going to places I don't want it to go. I recovered better than last week, but I need to figure out how to ignore these triggers and also focus on everything else than my marriage. At the moment there isn't anything I can do.

What is the hardest is the loneliness and the lack of physical contact. Touch happens to be one of my love languages. The hugs in the morning were the best, but I don't have that anymore and there is no means in sight to get this back. How do I cope with that? Sure, I don't need any of this for survival. It is not a necessity to stay alive. But is that life worth living? At the moment I have my doubts. I also don't feel as if the antidepressant does anything. I feel as miserable as I was a month ago.

There are good things happening. Last Wednesday at the game meetup I played Compounded and instantly loved that game. It is not that expensive, so I bought it myself. Came in yesterday, used the time during kids' drama club to put all the pieces together, and when we were back I played with S13. He liked the game as well and even picked up on the rules better than I did...and I was the one explaining it to him.
My coworker goes through a rough time himself. His gf dumped him (she is bipolar), then his car stereo broke (it still works, but the volume control is stuck at full blast), then in the house he bought (4 units, he lives in one) two water heaters started leaking and had to be replaced. So he had a lot of crappy things happening to him. He told me that his escape is music and that he uses his bluetooth speaker in his car to listen to music from his phone (which he shattered when he heard about his gf). Next day he told me that his bluetooth speaker no longer works. So I bought him a new one. I have an older model of that type and it works exceptionally well and is for its size obnoxiously loud. It was so nice to see him to be genuinely happy. At least he can listen to music again.

"Up and down, up and down, going up to the top, falling down to the ground." This line comes to mind quite a bit these days. I told W that I enjoy the chats we have in the morning. I really do. I am sure she does as well as I am about the only one she can talk to about her new job who has some clue what it is all about.
The other day I found a receipt in the hallway for an Egg McMuffin. I know W stops before work sometimes to get one. Yesterday I went and got some for each of us and hash browns. She stopped chatting on the computer, came to the kitchen, and ate hers. Later she went to the store and while she forgot to get a pack of pens that I asked for, she did get my a Twix bar. I really love the evil evil Twix bar. It was the new version with white chocolate which I like as well. So that was the up. During the day yesterday and into today the down followed. She slept most of yesterday, didn't want to go out to eat with us (we did talk about it since Thursday) and she is incredibly distant out of a sudden. Last night S13 and I wanted to play Compounded again, the game she mentioned she was interested in playing. S13 asked her if she wanted to play even before I suggested to ask her. She didn't want to.Really? Can't be bothered to spend an hour to play a game with us?
Her first full week at work was tough. On Thursday she said that she is "mentally drained" from the work. Each of the claims is different and she needs to look things up and keep things in mind to get it right. I get that. I feel like that for the past 18 years. I have to pay attention to minute details as software tester and constantly battle other forces who (sometimes rightfully so) are resistant to bug fixing. It is mentally draining and when I get home I just don't want to think that hard anymore and not process all the possible outcomes of what I do or say. I just want to sit and watch TV and have some light hearted chats with the family. Or do something that doesn't make me think to hard or where the outcome is irrelevant to me, like the board game meetup. I lose pretty much every game, but I really don't care. We have a few hours of fun and I get to talk to other people.
Talking to other people is not my thing. Often times I don't know what to talk about. My hobbies are a tad unusual, my work is not that exciting for someone who does not deal with that industry. And I am very shy. I try hard to change that. So I went to a social scene meetup on Friday night. I got to talk to a few people, but they disappeared and didn't return to the tiny pub we met at. Turns out they are all smokers and were hanging out on the sidewalk. I eventually went out there as well, but by that time they already established their circles and I am just not skilled and gutsy enough to butt into the conversations. I gave it a few minutes and then figured that standing around there like a lamp post is not how I want to spend my night. So I took the first opportunity I got to say bye, right at the moment when they distributed a new round of cigs. It wasn't as social as I hoped for, but there were not many people there to begin with. Still, I count this as personal growth. A few months ago I would not have even considered going to such an event. Meeting people I do not know and talking to them being the main purpose used to freak me out. This being a year of many firsts I went for it and although it ended rather dull I didn't regret going there. I will try again when they have some larger events or do trivia night or something that has more opportunities of engagement.

Weather was great yesterday, so I got to clean up outside a bit. I wanted to dig over the garden plots, but the ground is still frozen solid. I am also out of leaf bags, so I cannot pick up the remaining leaves. I went out and got a new broom, the kids are eager to help out and requested something better than what we have. S17 even thanked me for buying a nice broom. I mentioned to them that it would be nice if they cleaned up the car port from all the leaves and trash that blew in over the winter. With both cars gone during the day it is much easier. Next day when I came back from work it was spotless. S17 did it right away and without complaint. S13 also asks frequently if he can help me out. W mentioned that having a shelf next to the arm chair in the living room might be something the cats would like to sit on. So I got a shelf yesterday and S13 helped me install it. The cats didn't go for it yet. I put some stuff on it this morning, it will be tempting for a cat to go up there and push the stuff on the floor. I may sprinkle some catnip on it later.
Today I will clean the sump of the dish washer and fill in some rinse agent. We have very hard water here and our day to day glasses got rather crusty over the years. They are clean, but look dirty. W wants to buy new ones and I think that is a good idea.
Uh, not sure if I mentioned it, to my surprise her salary is going into the shared account. I also got a peek at her last CC statement and it is a good chunk of money, but not a crippling amount. With her not having many other expenses she should be able to pay that off within half a year. I have to see how things progress. I keep transferring money each time I get paid and will see that I reimburse her every other time for groceries, have to think about it. She is working now, makes money, and should pitch in. I'll figure out what I deem fair.

Next up gym, then deep cleaning the dish washer, then making baked mac & cheese for dinner. Want to get some writing time in and have a few things to prepare for my trip.

Originally Posted by DaveK

Talking to other people is not my thing.

Dave, I am going to call baloney on this one! You write well and talk to us, and me, here. I think we could have quite a long discussion on food. Have you considered the RotG challenge that Phoenix is doing? R2C is helping him out there and it's all about putting yourself out there and interacting with new people. But I do think you're right, that you're progressing on this front and that is awesome.

Clean those glasses with baking soda, vinegar, and kosher salt on a scrubbing pad. We have hard water where I live and that's what I do for the glass shower.

I like your post, you are really getting better at this and I'm glad to see it.

For quite a while I promised a list of books and resource I read. Here it is finally.

https://mustbethistalltoride.com/an-open-letter-to-shitty-husbands/
It is a good, sobering read. I didn't do all of these things, but I understand better now that it was hurtful. I'm not sure if I should have known better or how I could. I still regret things, but I am doing all this for the first time and are bound to screw up sometimes.

The Man's Guide to Women - John Guttman, Julie Schwartz Guttman
A good book, was recommended to be by my therapist. I wished I read it twenty years ago. At the moment most of it didn't apply to me because I am facing a totally different set of issues.

How to improve your marriage without talking about it - Patricia Love, Steven Stosny
Excellent read and truly a great resource for those couples where both are interested to work things out. I showed to W, but she snuffed at it and claimed this is the garbage only men would buy. This book covers what depression can do to a relationship. With W having severe depression I had to consider this. Now that I was diagnosed with depression as well I can better understand how this could impact a marriage.

Five love languages / Five love languages for men - Gary Chapman
Both books are almost the same. It is a very good read and has many nice stories in it of success in fixing a relationship. Unfortunately, that requires both partners to have a will to work on the relationship and in my case W still does not seem to be interested.

One more try - Gary Chapman
Since I liked Five Love Languages I got this other book from Chapman. I read about a third and then put it aside. It is very religious and that just does not jive with me. It also detracts a lot from the somewhat good advice that really has nothing to do with religious affiliation.

Mating in captivity - Esther Perel
I started reading it and stopped when I realized that I really have no interest in dating or meeting someone right now. I came to the conclusion that it would be just wrong for me, for whoever I would meet, and W and the kids. I don't want to expose someone to the current constellation and I don't want to give up on my dream of getting back together with W.

Divorce Busting - Michele Weiner-Davis
I started reading and had to put it away. I was not mentally stable enough to process the things that are written in the book. I will pick it up again now that I know better how to deal with my emotions. It is also not a book that I want to carry around with me when I am with the kids, such as waiting for them at drama class. It will likely worry them even more than they worry now and I really could not explain to them if there will be a divorce or not. The topic of divorce has not come up in months and W is applying for a permanent position at the insurance company she is working at. Still could mean that she wants to split ways and move out, but that did not come up either. That said, this might be the constellation where a more active divorce busting might work out.

I also read numerous resources about depression and the impact on relationships. Being in a self-help group for spouses of depressed / bipolar partners is also a big help. So many others are in the exact same situation I am in, it is sad and reassuring at the same time. While I surely messed up some things during my marriage, it is not exclusively my fault of what is happening. W telling me that she no longer has feelings for me I something I can understand. Her having an affair right in the face of our family is and never was OK, but I have no control over what she does and see no value in picking fights with her. I rather keep it rather peaceful at home and once in a while create joy for myself by doing something nice for W. And I mean once in a while, it is not a pursuit. She returns the favor and that makes me happy again. Maybe it helps instilling a feeling of missing me when I am in Germany soon. Hope dies last.

Originally Posted by ovrrnbw

Originally Posted by DaveK

Talking to other people is not my thing.

Thanks for the kind words. As far as talking to people...I just have to keep at it. I signed up for another presentation. The first one that I did about stamps is soon available online. My next one will be titled "I'm a legal alien living in New York". Being a legal alien is not easy at times since non citizens are considered 2nd class people. It surely will trigger some interesting discussion.

Times are interesting anyway. W used to sit with me in the morning and we drink our coffee and just talk about stuff. I really enjoy that a lot because we meet and engage on a ground that has nothing to do with our relationship. It was W who started this and when she did it the first time I put my crime novel aside and turned towards her and only focused on what she said. That happened for several days in a row. And then I told her that I really enjoy our 15-20 minute chats in the morning.
Next day she did not sit down with me, nor the next day, nor the next day..... Last night I had my therapist appointment and we talked about this. He was surprised and taken aback that W would react like this. I was disappointed and a tad hurt, but I did not ask her about it, I did not engage her in morning chats. Then today came and she sat down and we had the best talk in a long time. We talked about her work, my work, and then S17 and his gender identity issues.
I also asked her if she wants to go out with me tomorrow night. My coworker plays with his cover band a few towns over. It is a half hour drive, but Saratoga being a ritzy place with a very active and almost European nightlife, it surely is worth it. And my coworker's band kicks ass. They are damn good. Well, she said that she would think about it. I made that offer with 0 expectations. So not getting an outright "NO" is not bad. I still think that ultimately she won't go, but that is OK. I will go and she will be laying in bed wishing that she wasn't such a jerk. I know I will have fun. I will never see any of these people again, so who cares if I look stupid rocking out and dancing around. Being 45 is starting the age where you don't really care anymore what people think of you. I don't care if the 20something think that grampa forgot his meds.
Anyhow, getting a haircut tomorrow, go to the bank to make sure that my CC works in Germany, then buy some maple candy as a gift (and jelly beans for my mom), get cash, buy burgers and hot dogs (wanted to use the grill for the first time, but it snowed today...WTF?????), and start to prep for my trip. Weeks ago I was freaking out about the two weeks I will be away. I was convinced that W would move out. Then I got paranoid over her moving back into our bed and having video chat sex sessions with the other guy. And then I saw this and thought that and last night I had a nightmare dreaming that W again was talking to him right in front of me. I woke up and just wondered what the hell is wrong with me. I have no control over what she does anyway. I made the decision that I will be the best roommate, partner, spouse, and dad that I can be. That is not mainly because I want to please her, it is foremost for me. I want to look back in 5 or 10 years from now and not have any regrets. I want to be able to look in the mirror and tell myself that I did everything I could. No matter what W will throw at me, I learned and realized that I have absolute unconditional love for her. Some may see it as crazy and naive, but what the hell do they know? I took so many punches I got accustomed to it. There is a line in the sand: if she says she wants to go back to India and visit OM I will ask her to make it so that she won't come back into this house. I will give her my wedding and engagement rings that I wore with pride for (almost) two decades and ask her to make a decision. Either put the rings back on my finger or file papers and go away. I wish it never comes to that. And chances are better than they used to be. W is far more engaged in S13's schooling, almost back to the level she used to be. W said she loves her new job and can't wait to get her own desk (I will see if I can get her something really kewl for her desk when I am in Germany). It makes me so happy to see her so excited. I don't care if she has an agenda or not, I feel happy for her.
Ohhh, what we could do with the money she earns. It is about half of what I make, but that means one pay check each month extra to do stuff with. W wants to pay off her CC debt first. But after that....we could go on trips 2 or 3 times a year, we could finally replace the cracked windows in the house, we could put a new roof on the carport, we could have a really happy and fun filled life without much worry. I don't know about her, but for me that sounds a heckuva lot better than sitting in the middle of nowhere on an Indian potato farm with rolling blackouts and spotty cell service. Emotional intelligence does not put food on the table or clothes on the body. Maybe it isn't as romantic, but day in and day out that matters more than being a sweet talker.

Even if not...I feel as if I do the right thing. Morally, ethically, and humanly I do the right thing. And I will tell that to anyone who wants to know, even a potential new flame/partner. My love is unconditional and it is strong and comes from a spring that never runs dry. I know that I could love someone else, but for the rest of my life my love for W will not end. She was a dream of a wife for 18 years and she did a lot for me. I will never forget that. Right now I look at the few photos from our wedding and I am happy. I used to look at then and feel pain and cry. No matter what happens, moving all the way to be with W and marrying her was the best decision I ever made.

Maybe it is the Lamotrigine kicking in. The psychiatrist added that to the Wellbutrin. And I admit, I have a bottle of wine in me as well. I worked damn hard all this week I felt I deserved this. I have come so far, I have grown so much, I feel like the ever happy tube man in front of a used car lot. And yes, I used to flail my arms in the air for different reasons. No matter what happens, I got that. I grew as a person, I got more independent, I take life at the horns, and I fight it any which way it comes at me. I will not get sucked into the vortex of depression like W.

As far as the glasses are concerned, W bought new ones. They are really nice. I put the old ones in the recycling, some of them were chipped and half of them were small glasses that none of us liked. It is small things like that that give me joy. W thinks about these things, she does nice things for all of us, she does nice things for me. It makes me so happy that I wish I could just give her a really long hug.

As always...thanks for reading.

Well, W didn't want to go our after all and that is what I expected. I went anyway and had a blast! W asked me if I would go and I said yes. I could not back out of this. It would have seemed weak, like a made up reason to take her out. This way it was only an invitation to come along.
She did enjoy the food I made yesterday (pigs in a blanket for lunch, burgers at night) and today (chicken and dumplings). S13 asked her if she wants to join us playing Compounded (awesome game!), but she wanted to go to bed. Made me feel sad, would have meant a lot to S13...and me as well. It would be one thing she won't be able to do if she moves to India: play board games with her kids. No matter how much emotional intelligence OM has, he can't replace that.
Still feeling happy that W sat with me again on Friday morning. I told her that I am happy for her that she likes her job. I told her that I am proud of her. No matter what happens, she pulled herself out of abyss and it clearly shows. That was not easy at all. It is so nice to see and feel that she is more "here", making plans, engaging, and appreciating the little things. Today I went to a writer's meetup and on my way back I passed the pharmacy we go to. I recalled that she called in a refill yesterday. So I stopped and got her the pills. If she would have done that for me I would have felt deep and true love....thinking about me, taking on one chore, saving me from going out of my way to get the pills. I hope she remembers that.

On Wednesday I will be going to Germany. I hope she misses me. A few months ago I was in total panic about this trip. I was convinced that she takes that as opportunity to pack her stuff and leave. Now I am far more relaxed. Sure, she might still do some dumb stuff while the cat is out of the house, but I don't care. I give her everything I have despite all odds, circumstances, and my own condition. That's all I got and all I can give. If that is still not enough then I can't help it.

One odd thing happened. A local woman friended me on FB and she kinda is all over me....almost like a teenager. She writes messages and then instantly deletes them, she comments on every dinky [censored] I post. I have to be careful with that one. I am not interested in a relationship with anyone else than W...and with that I don't want to hurt anyone. Profile says I am married, so there should be no surprise. Then again, this is online and may not mean anything.

Writer's meeting was interesting. Small circle. I presented my new poems that are a start if a series of poems about feelings and emotions. I picked a very condensed style and have the topic word hidden in the poem. The topic word is arranged to match the feeling or emotion. For example, "disappointment" is arranged as a frown. "Depression" is arranged as a back arrow. Next topic word is "happiness", that will be a smile.
I try to get a decent series together by around mid of July. That will be a year after she told me she no longer loves me. I am toying with the idea of calling that series "Emotional Intelligence". I am not a wall, I am not a stone, I am not distant and cold. That title will be part defiance, part mockery, part demonstration, and part hinting that all she wants is right here.

I'm about to fall asleep. Thanks for reading. And thanks for all the help, the advice, the listening, the honest words that I had to hear. You all helped me a lot. Maybe you can understand how much that means to me. You didn't have to do any of that and yet you still did it. How much more can a person give? I am forever grateful and I will never forget. Thank you sop much!

Re the morning chats with coffees. What did you learn ?

Originally Posted by Tryhard

Re the morning chats with coffees. What did you learn ?

I learned that she really likes her job, that she cares a lot about the kids, and that she wants to talk to me. And I learned that we can have a deep, meaningful, civil talk about stuff. We never talked about us, which is perfectly fine and from my end even preferred. What else is there to say? The only thing about that which would be of interest to me is if she came to the conclusion that I am not that bad of a party after all. I don't poke the bear who will eventually walk away.
I also learned that I still very much love my wife. That I am proud of her for getting a rather decent job with good pay. And that I love her even more now that she is "here", making plans for days ahead, asking questions like when trash day is while I am away, being a great mom again. There are times where I just want to give her a hug.
And then there are the days like today when she does not want to talk and just barely gets a Hi and Bye out. Maybe she didn't feel well. She did make us dinner, tuna melt instead of tuna casserole....but she messaged me and asked if that would be OK with me and if I want tomato on it. Of course it is OK with me! I even go to an event with free food tomorrow night to make it even a bit easier for her...and to continue to keep as much distance as possible.
I was rather bummed out this morning. One of those moments where I feel my love for her so strongly and at the same time feel lonely, rejected, and unloved. Took until around 11 that I felt better....which is not bad. Not too long ago this would drag me down for days. Sorry for digressing.....

Going on my trip to Germany today. W wished me a good trip and we talked for a few minutes. I guess giving me a hug goodbye would have been too much to expect. A tad worried what she might do while I am away, but there isn't anything I can do about.
Saw that she paid a good chunk of money to her CC. The shared account is almost empty, so I transferred some money so that she can buy groceries for the next weeks. With mobile banking I can transfer more if she has a valid need.

I will miss her, I will miss my kids, but I will try for the next two weeks to put my mind on other things and have some joy and relaxation. Not sure if I will get around to post here.

Well....I am back from my trip. Things are not good and I give up. She does not want to be with me, even said that she enjoyed me not being around. While I was in Germany she apparently picked up on the financial changes (having my own account, my salary going into that account, etc). She accused me of stealing her money and after that the conversation went downhill.
Yesterday we went out with the whole family and after our returned I talked to W. I explained to her that I got the advice of "going dark" and that I gave that a try for three months. It only confused W and made her angry, but it didn't accomplish anything other than make me feel absolutely miserable. I draw joy of doing nice things for her. The time we will still live together is running out and I like to end this in peace. I don't want the kids to suffer from all that tension, I don't want to be dark and mysterious anymore....and above all I am out of energy of being strong. I obsessed about fixing this relationship for almost a year now and no matter what I did, it didn't do anything. I thought I would be OK with letting my marriage fizzle out, but I am not. I am sad, devastated, depressed, and what is the worst: lonely. Yea, the cat missed me, but my kids didn't and W definitely did not.

I don't know how to cope with this.I have the thought in my mind to go out and meet someone, but I don't think now is the right time.I am too overwhelmed with trying to function, I am still married and I am loyal as frack. I still love my wife and I told her that no matter what happens, I will always love her. Letting her go is the hardest thing.
I have to take care of myself since my depression seems to worsen. I am constantly tired, but at night I cannot sleep. There are moments when I start crying and I have no control over it. There is nobody left to give me a hug, to tell me that she loves me. That was replaced with endless guilt, fear of being alone forever, feeling woefully inadequate as a husband and a person. At times I think about ending it all, but that may come from the psych drugs. I'm just tired.

I thank you all for the support and advice, but I no longer think there is anything that can bust the upcoming divorce. I will never understand why she did this to me. I always tried to do my best, but obviously I am not good enough. W mentioned that she wants to spend a few months in India. I told her that she should make plans so that she will not return to our house. If she leaves...or rather when she leaves, I will give my sons all the photos and pictures I have from her. She is still their mom, but I don't want to know anything about her then. I don't want her to talk to me or send me a xmas card or birthday wishes. I want to erase her from my mind knowing well it won't work.

Right now I wish that someone would come here and give me a hug, like the one I got from the partner of my former Latin teacher. She is in her 80s and recovering from another bout with leukemia, but when she hugged me it was a really tight hug. I didn't think she had the strength for it, but less so unexpected than the kiss. I envy the people who just know what the right thing is to do.

If anyone knows how to overcome the feeling of loneliness and worthlessness......

Wow Dave,

sorry to read all of that. So much negativity. You know why you are saying all these negative things? It's because you choose to say them. When you starting with your attitude and change the way you think, it will change the way you act, and thus how you feel. Fight your way out of this funk.

Your kids don't care? They're little twerp teenage who are totally engrossed in their own lives at the moment. Normal stuff.

Your W said she liked you not being home? She wants to go to India? She's trying to mess with you. There's no point to say it other than she is hurting and wants you to hurt too. India isn't exactly a destination and it only shows how far lost she is.

As for feeling out of strength or fight, I say who cares? You don't have to fight for your marriage, not in the traditional sense. Just be strong for you. Put Dave first. You don't know how strong you are until you put it all on the line and decide you're going to make it through no matter what. There's a famous organizational motto "The only easy day was yesterday". That speaks to growth, challenges, and dealing with adversity. That is your world for the forseeable future. Embrace the suck, make it yours, turn it into whatever positive it can be. Why are you dealing with this? B/c you have chosen to. So either reevaluate your choice or stand strong on the choice you made. There's no wrong answer.

You need to remember that you are 1%er in this world. I can guarantee your income puts you there. You are successful, you can cook, you can listen, you can manage a budget, you do a good job raising your kids. Did you tell your family in Germany that you feel worthless? What would they have said to you? I know you want a hug but I'm gonna give you some convo and some online support instead b/c you live too far away. Keep your head up, keep doing the right thing, and trust me on this: you aren't going to be lonely forever.

Hi ovrrnbw!

I was and still am disappointed. I came home from a long trip and when I sent a message out that I landed and are on my way home there was no reaction. W told me she is tired and hungry. So I went and got dinner on my way back. Neither her nor my sons did anything to welcome me back. The only reason they bothered to come out of their rooms was because I had food. At one point I even point blank asked if they missed me and all I got was a bad joke.

When I talked to W on Thursday night she even said that she was happy that I was gone. She told me of her plans. I told her that I still love her, I explained to her the "going dark" thing that totally backfired, I explained to her why I limited her access to money (she said she understands my reaction), and I told her that if she goes back to India not to return to this house.

I'm tired of all of this. I wish she would just pack up and go and leave me alone. First thing I would do when she leaves is to get all the photos of her and give them to my sons. I wouldn't want to see her face anymore, I wouldn't want to talk to her anymore, nothing. That's the end. And that is exactly where things are heading.

Sometimes I think about hiring a divorce busting coach, but then again, how much more time, effort, and money am I going to drop into this? I bet I change my mind on this again, but I don't know. It's been almost a year now and absolutely nothing changed.....other than that I am depressed now and eat psych drugs that don't seem to do anything.

W said that she is looking for attention and that she gets that from others, but not me. I told her that it is easy for a young guy who works in the family business and lives at home to spend hours each day on courting a woman. I did the same with her when we met. I had no worries back then, I studied, lived at home, had plenty of money from side jobs, no house, no kids, no worry that I get fired. My responsibilities were minimal and in the mid 20s one tends to be still naive and idealistic.
W told me that she video chats with a guy, married with kids, and that he spends hours talking to her. That is because he drives a lot for work and has the time to spare to chat for hours. She also brought up the one time when she dressed up to go out and I didn't comment on her looks. And that she sent me a photo of her and only replied with "Thanks for the photo!" - I agree, I screwed up then, but what about the gazillion other times? It is also that I assumed she knew that I find her very attractive and beautiful because I said so many times. I understand that assuming and have said so in the past is not enough, it needs to be said often, daily even.

While I was on vacation I looked back at the past months and there were three phases. The first phase was "fog", where I was shocked and totally devastated, very emotional, and did not make rational decisions. Second phase was when I figured out how to dial in my kindness towards her. In the end it did not accomplish much, but she told me "Nobody treated me as well as you do right now my entire life." I told her that this was one of the nicest things she ever said to me.I forgot what else happened during that time, but that one sentence stuck with me and still makes me happy.
Phase three was "going dark", in the beginning I didn't really know how to do it and I am not sure if I mastered it ever. All I know is that it did put me on a track to do more things and gain more confidence, the willingness to put myself into social situations that I used to find highly uncomfortable. As far as my home life....it just made me absolutely miserable. It was not me, I am not wired to essentially not engage with her, and I lost a source of joy and satisfaction. Doing nice things for her and my kids makes me happy. I almost don't mind that she doesn't return anything. My sons seem to be more comfortable to be with me and they often seek time to talk to me. They help out around the house far more than they used to. I ask them to do a chore and they just do it, no complaints and no procrastination.

So which path do I want to go? I chose to go with what made me the happiest and that is being kind, generous, and accommodating to W. I no longer keep secrets, I tell her where I go and when I am about to come back home, I gave her the login for my bank account, I moved 2k into the shared account so that she can pay for her CC bill (I'd be stuck with the debt either way and most of it is medial expenses). I no longer keep secrets, I stay loyal, and in general want to do things the way that I don't look back years from now and have regrets. In the end, that is what she was asking for. I no longer obsess about saving the marriage, stop feeling bad for not reading more, stop wondering how long I need to do X to get Y. I do the things I find enjoyable, that spike my interest, that are new. I even wonder if I need to see my therapist once a week. I love going there because there is someone who listens to me, but I need to push him to generate more value for me as in giving actionable advice and for that I want to spend time to think about what I want to get out of the sessions. I found a meetup called "BHS - Broken Heart Support", happens to be organized by the same guy who runs the PEP Talk group (did my second talk there yesterday)....and as it turns out he is one of the FB acquaintences of W. Small world. Yeah, that guy is a tad weird, but I appreciate his engagement and effort to create these groups and bring people together. I also joined a writers meetup and a German speakers meetup, still going Wednesdays to board game meetup.I offer to join anything that I think W might enjoy. Aside from work she is still cooped up at home living in a mostly virtual world.
Other than that, I want to live my life and find some joy and happiness. I want to stop worrying about my marriage and be nice to W as long as she lives here. If she decides to go in a different direction then there isn't anything I can do about it. I want her to be happy and if that means being on her own or with someone else then so be it. I hate it, I will suffer from it, I want it to be different, but I ran out of ideas on how to influence her to change her mind. Maybe being on her own and not having the benefits of this home might do something. Even very worldly things such as doing laundry. Yea, I could offer her to come here and do it, but if she wants to no longer be part of the family then she won't get the perks either. We cross paths enough when she comes to visit the kids and I'd want that to be like a visit, that she is a guest here.

Well, that's it for today. Need to fix the bathroom sink, the kitchen door, turn the soil in the yard, talk to my mom, go to the gym, cook dinner (lime chicken with asparagus and mushrooms...may make mashed potatoes with it....yesterday I made popcorn shrimp po'boys), and tonight watch American Idol....I grew tired of that show, but Adam Lambert will be there and he is awesome.

I'd let them fend for themselves on the food front if they are going to be turds.

MWD reccomends no ILYs for most situations. I think you should stick to that. I also wouldn't tell her what you're doing and why in regards to your DBing.

Why would you discuss the affair and why she did it? That seems weird to me. And it sounds like another EA with some married guy? You need to detach further and protect yourself from these hurtful convos. That means less you telling her what you're doing and inviting her along. I know you want her, and it's hard for you to act like you don't care but she even said she doesn't want attention from you. So honor her word there. Pursuit only makes you look weak and unattractive. I'd read R2Cs stuff on being attractive.

I do see progress with you though, you are letting go of her and getting stronger and accepting reality. You're on the right track. Enjoy your day.

ovrrnbw....All my life I was an open book for everyone. Anyone who knew be a bit closer knew exactly who I am and what I feel and what I do. I never made a secret of what I am up to. So what if I tell her? If I invite her? I have no expectations. I assume she says no or comes up with some lame ass excuse. So what? I still go and do it. Activity outside the house is a great antidepressant. Or any activity.
Here is what I did today: read/skimmed about 50 tech articles and curated them for emailing to a former coworker, watched soccer, fixed the bathroom sink, went to Home Depot, fixed the door bottom of the kitchen (S17 helped me), talked to my mom, had some fun on FB, installed a new toilet seat and cleaned the toilet, went to the gym, and cooked dinner (S13 helped a bit and helped a lot with the dishes after).
W got up, drank coffee, hung around on FB, slept, more FB, drank beer, ate junk, slept, ate dinner, went back to bed. I offered to take her to the gym, but she didn't want to.
I had a great day. I am tired as [censored] now, but I got everything done that I set out for and that is rather rare.

As I wrote before, I am tired of detaching and being distant and mysterious. That [censored] so much energy out of me and makes me feel miserable.I don't care if she leaves today, tomorrow, or months from now....or not at all. If she wants to change her mind and get back with the program, I am open to it and would like it a lot, but if she doesn't want that no amount of DB will change that. I rather spend my mental and emotional capacity on making friends and doing things than plot yet another move to save my marriage. Months ago I had this one whacked up day where everything I started didn't work out, especially clogging up the bathtub drain. S13 wanted to play a game and that is what we eventually did. All the plumbing and other issues resolved themselves or got simpler to overcome.
Towards the end of last year I spent every second on figuring out what else I can do to woo W. I was consumed by trying to fix things and totally disappointed and destroyed when it didn't work out.
The whole "going dark" thing totally didn't work out. Maybe I didn't do it right or not long enough, but as far as W is concerned it absolutely totally did nothing at all.

I no longer have any expectations in regards to saving the marriage. Without expectations there will be no disappointment. I also told W that I am done discussing the past. It is pointless. She wanted to tell me something and was wondering if she should tell me....I told her if it doesn't include a happy end for me I am not interested. With that I focus exclusively on the present and future and I conduct myself how I should have all along. If that is not enough then I can't help it.There is nothing more I can or at least am willing to do. In my mind it isn't pursuit, all these things make me happy. It also puts my mind at ease that I did everything I could and then some. I regret a lot of things, but I won't regret things like that. If it is not enough it is her loss. If it comes down to it, I am sure there is someone who will appreciate all this and feel as if her dreams came true.If that ends up to be W, even better, but it no longer is the only avenue that is in front of me.
Yes, I will present myself to her as the guy she really doesn't want to lose, but I care not much if that matters in the end. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. And what it will be, time will tell. And until then I'm having some fun with or without her.

I don't post that often anymore because essentially nothing changed. Well, a little bit did change. W is no longer on antidepressants and I am not sure what to make of that. On Sunday we had a really nice day (aside from her talking to OM, which I heard a few bits of and then she walked away quickly to who knows where). It was Mother's Day and she really enjoyed the kick ass card we got her (3D card with popup being a cat who carries a kitten to a basket with another kitten). S13 and S17 couldn't think of anything what to tell their mom, at least S17 wrote "Happy Mother's Day" on it. I used the back side to tell her what a great mother she is and that our kids could not wish for anyone better. It's true.
S17 made us all breakfast sandwiches, I got a cheese cake for coffee in the afternoon, and then we all went out to a brew pub restaurant. After that we dropped the kids off at home and W and I went grocery shopping. We had fun and joked around. We didn't have such a wonderful day in a very long time.
Tonight we go out as well. The local biergarten gives out a birthday boot for free a day before, on, or a day after one's birthday. I won't miss out on free beer. W was surprised that I asked her out and I was surprised that she said yes. Yesterday we messaged each other and she brought the topic to having done things and then later wondering what the heck one was thinking. I told her that this happens to me as well, that we are all only human.
I try hard not to read anything into this, but for the first time in eons I drew happiness from my relationship with W. Anyhow, it still can go either way and the more time passes the more am I fine with either direction with clearly a preference. I no longer have the fatalistic view of her leaving. I can meet someone else if I want to. I do think she will not be happier, especially not with that immature jerk she is attached to. If she goes that route then there is nothing I can do. Maybe she regrets it all at some point, but I won't be waiting for it. Until then I do what I should have done all along, be a decent person and a good husband as much as circumstances allow.
I did meet another woman, she friended me on FB, but right from the get go it was clear that it is nothing else than friendship. She is fun to hang out with for a few hours, but I wouldn't want it to be any longer. I try to make friends. I also joined a broken hearts support group and it helps to talk to people who made similar experiences. It is hard for all of us and many who were at the meeting wished they did things differently. Next Saturday I attend a cookout from a local social group. Will be fun, I can train talking to people I never met and stuff my fave with hot dogs. And when I don't feel as if it is a good time I can go home.
What else, S17 is thinking more and more about a sex change. He wants to talk to a therapist, so I called the one he selected. I left a message and will see what happens.
Oh, and taking the max does of the antidepressants helped quite a bit. I no longer have these extreme emotional moments and mood swings. I now take Melatonin and it improved my sleep. So...I guess I sit and wait and have some fun once in a while.

By the way, I tried searching for "R2Cs stuff on being attractive" and came up empty so far. Does anyone have a link to that section/thread? Thanks in advance.

One more thing....came across this and it describes exactly what happened. I more and more believe that depression played a big role in all of this.
https://www.mentalhelp.net/blogs/when-a-depressed-partner-falls-out-of-love/

Originally Posted by DaveK

By the way, I tried searching for "R2Cs stuff on being attractive" and came up empty so far. Does anyone have a link to that section/thread? Thanks in advance.

Is R2C shorthand for "Ready2Change"? Still trying to find that thread, but search allows only to look through the past three months. This is not a complaint, solely a request for help to find the resource recommended.

Sorry I'm gonna bump this too and see if I can't find those links.

Dave, you engaging her instead of doing your own thing while she's in an affair is enabling. You getting her a card and "celebrating" with her is enabling. You and I have different personalities. NC and LRT worked best for me and my sitch. I don't know what will be best for yours, but I dont know if enabling her affair is the ticket. You do have the so what, no expectations attitude and that is great. But is that enough? I hear your message, but what message is your W hearing?

On the flip side, some of this appears to be working. Keyword is appears. Keep expectations in check. You being calm, strong and mature IS ATTRACTIVE. Keep that up. What else could be attractive to her?

Glad to hear some positives you have going too. We tend to minimize the positive and dwell on the negative but it's all in our heads. Keep on keepin on Dave.

ovrrnbw - the card was for Mother's Day, so it was intended to be mainly from the kids. But they could not come up with anything, so I added my note.
I got tired about thinking on how to behave and what to do and plotting my next move. I am doing what I should have done all along and I draw joy from doing nice things not only for my wife, but for everyone. I bought S17's SSD so that he had money to get an even better one. A few weeks back I saw that on the side of the road someone gave away a TV and Blue Ray player. So I grabbed that for S17. S13 no longer likes his SpongeBob themed room, so I will give it a complete makeover. My new friend is extremely shy and socially awkward (her words), so I try to coax her into being around people and meeting me. I help out others at work. Yesterday I helped one coworker so that she wouldn't fall behind two days on her project. It didn't take much for me to help out and I see no reason to not have her succeed. She was so happy that she messaged me "I love you". I know that it was only meant as a thanks for helping her....although I do have a crush on her, hehe.
As far as doing nice things for W and all the work around the house...I see it in two ways. Either W likes what she sees and wants to keep that, or she doesn't. I get to get accustomed to juggling all the chores, which might be impressive to a new partner, but more so it will become utter necessity when W leaves. As a single dad I have no choice. I really don't care if it might enable her or endorse something or whatever. I bring her a cup of coffee and she says thank you and that makes ME happy. I don't give a damn if it makes her happy. There is also another aspect to it. She will live here for time to come for at least economical reasons. She is the mom of my sons and they have a right to be living in a home that isn't a toxic environment.
The only thing that I cannot and will not do under the current circumstances is start something myself. Sure, would be nice, but I wouldn't be able to bring her home and it would be grossly unfair to any woman to be thrown into such a situation. I also think it is morally wrong. I am still married, I gave my vows, and I will stick to my promise. Just because W thinks otherwise doesn't mean it is the right thing to do.

Of course, there are these moments when I wish she would be laying next to me or give me a hug. But it is no longer that it absolutely, totally, exclusively has to be her. She is kinda just there and for the most part she doesn't intentionally trigger my discomfort. Yea, not to keen on seeing her with the bracelets and the 1960s India flower power necklaces with the symbols on it that could mean peace, soup, or dill pickle. I no longer get instantly angry and emotional over this. I credit the antidepressants for that.

Or taking S13 to the doctor and soon to a specialist and to the optometrist as well....sure, maybe one could see that as doing W favors and engaging, but at the core it is something I want to do for my son. I want to be a decent person and stop obsessing about rescuing my marriage. Yes, I'd like that, but I really don't have much control over things other than what I do. At some point something will happen and I know that at some point W will question if her actions were the right ones. Would be nice if she comes to that conclusion before I moved on with my life, but that is stuff that didn't happen yet, so why think a lot about it.
I still do my things, such as going to a cookout from a local social group. It used to be a singles group, but so many got married by meeting someone in that rather large group that the organizers felt that they rather change the purpose of the group than tell those folks to get out. It will be a challenge for me, going somewhere I never was before and talking to people I never met before. I want to do more of that stuff, because I am horrible at this. Life is good, except for the loneliness.

Today W brought the topic of divorce up again. I told her that I don't want that, but I had enough of this [censored]. If she wants to go, then go...get out of my life and please, never come back. Never was so disappointed by someone. It is so utterly senseless. I will never understand why she does what she does. It does not improve anything, but makes all of us miserable, including her. I feel as if I tried everything that I could, she is hellbent on getting away from her family. There is no point in anyone talking to her. I told her that I probably will ask her to never contact me, write me, call me, message me, and avoid being in the same place as much as possible. I don't want to have any recollections of the biggest disappointment of my life. I will never understand why she destroys the lives of her entire family. One thing I know for sure, the grass is not greener on the other side.

Thanks for everyone who gave advice and wanted to help. I appreciate it. This thing is over.

Hi DaveK,

Sorry you're having such a rough time. She can only hurt you because you care, and that shows you're a good husband and a good person.

I can only imagine what it's like to be at the end of your rope, it sure sounds like it.
I'm wondering.... isn't this what's needed? I'm not talking about the D, I mean letting her go completely to burn herself out?
Just because she's saying D doesn't mean she'll go thru with it. So she walks away for awhile (no contact) and then has to struggle with the actual D papers. Saying and doing are two different things.

-SoloFlex

SoloFlex...thanks for writing. Maybe this is what needs to happen, but me clinging on to a faint idea only hurts me. Today she told me that she wants to move out...but spend as much time as possible here to be with the kids. If she moves out, she moves out. The kids can go and visit her any time. I even drop them off and pick them up, but I don't want her in this house anymore.My limits are far and wide, I just took a lot of crap, endured a lot of pain. I do have my limits.
She wants 30k in exchange for everything. Maybe that is fair, but I told her that I cannot pay that in a lump sum nor over 5 years. So now she said it is ok to give her 250 per month over ten years. I go for that, at least it doesn't drain my resources that much.

She said she doesn't hate me. I asked her then why does she put me through so much pain? I asked her why she went to this extreme? If that is not utter disgust, blatant hate, absolute loathing...then what is it? She got upset that I for some time almost cut her off financially, that I took her name off all insurances, 401k, IRA. She asked why I distrust her. I told her that she was the first to betray trust. She tossed me away like a broken toy.

I can't even be angry or mad about it anymore...maybe it is the psych drugs, but maybe it is because all this is so ridiculously stupid. I told her that she should move out now if that makes her happy. She says it doesn't make her happy.

Maybe it is better if she just leaves. I don't know how she could afford living on her own after a divorce. The 250 bucks a month extra are groceries, if that. Her car is almost paid off and I have no problem with signing it over to her. So she has to get car insurance, she has to get some sort of health insurance (her current job through a temp agency does not have that), she will have to pay for her school loan on her own. And forget her getting another decent credit card with that little income. She is about to commit financial suicide, but I guess he is that fogged up that she doesn't get that.

I'm tired, mentally and physically. I can't sleep, I have constant tinnitus, and my left foot and leg hurt all the time. I'm just tired, tired of it all. And what for? I know it is pointless to keep asking that question, but it is so baffling and mind boggling that it is almost fascinating how idiotic this all is.

I guess I'll figure stuff out as a single dad. My sons will be taken care of, S17 goes to college across town in September. They both a great kids despite the challenges they face. Especially S17 and his gender identity problem. Right now when he needs his parents the most to get through this really difficult time in his young life, W decides to go off the rails. And then she claims she loves her kids. Seriously? You turn your back on them when they need you the most and that is what you call "love"? For the 17 years she is a mom, she did everything for them. Up until last July there was not a better mom my sons could have wished for. What the hell happened to her? Yesterday she even said herself that all this is going against her own values and beliefs. Today she tells me that she does not know why she does this. And tomorrow it will be another story that makes absolutely no sense.

My sons notice right away when I am crushed. I didn't tell them what W told me. I only told them that W will tell them. In no way will I be the bearer of the bad news. She can explain to her sons why she is leaving.

Am I crazy? Unreasonable? Off my rocker for thinking that this is moronically stupid to the nth degree? Whatever, I have no control over what she does....and it seems that she doesn't either.

I close with something positive. On Saturday I was out to a cookout of a local social group (used to be a singles group until so many of them got married). My new friend Renee was there as well and she brought her life long friend Phil. Phil is awesome, rarely do I hit it off with someone so well and so easily. Phil is big into geocaching. I heard of it, but didn't really know what it was until we went for a short hike to find a geocache nearby. Today I tried to find two that are near my work, but I didn't find them. Tonight I brought the kids to drama club and across the street there were two geocaches hidden. I had more luck this time and found them both. It is like easter egg hunting and equally satisfying. And nice to see that nobody is mean and ruins it for everyone. Unspoken respect, hard to find these days.
Finding the geocaches put a smile on my face. I would have never thought that I'd find interest in this, but I did.

I likely will go out on Monday with my new friends to find more geocaches. And yea, probably stop somewhere and have a beer. I asked S13 if he wants to come along, he is interested. Might be a nice change for him as well.

Originally Posted by DaveK

Today she told me that she wants to move out...but spend as much time as possible here to be with the kids. If she moves out, she moves out. The kids can go and visit her any time. I even drop them off and pick them up, but I don't want her in this house anymore.

Did you tell her this or just think it? I would go ahead and set a boundary now that once she moves out she won't be just swinging by any ol' time to hang out and play family. Don't be mean or angry about it but just state that you wanted to make it clear with her that there will not be an open-door policy.

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She said she doesn't hate me. I asked her then why does she put me through so much pain? I asked her why she went to this extreme? If that is not utter disgust, blatant hate, absolute loathing...then what is it?

WAS's feel desperate to get out of what they perceive as a terrible marriage. It's not anger or hate or loathing, it's "I can't do this anymore, I need out." Often the M isn't bad at all, but that is their PERCEPTION. That perception of the M and the LBS can and will change with time.

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I don't know how she could afford living on her own after a divorce. The 250 bucks a month extra are groceries, if that. Her car is almost paid off and I have no problem with signing it over to her. So she has to get car insurance, she has to get some sort of health insurance (her current job through a temp agency does not have that), she will have to pay for her school loan on her own. And forget her getting another decent credit card with that little income. She is about to commit financial suicide, but I guess he is that fogged up that she doesn't get that.

That's her journey to make. She might surprise you. My XW was terrible with finances while we were married, but she's done quite well since D. I'm not really sure how, but I don't wish any ill will on her so I'm happy to see her doing well.

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I'm just tired, tired of it all. And what for? I know it is pointless to keep asking that question, but it is so baffling and mind boggling that it is almost fascinating how idiotic this all is.

Just try to get all this poison out of your system and get about the business of Dave 2.0. Make an awesome new life for yourself and quit dwelling over this. It happens, wives often go rogue and the reasons are rarely clear. You can be bitter and angry about it and live a miserable existence or you can accept it and move on to a new life, maybe even a better life. I know it's painful (believe me I know), but the best way forward is to let go of the pain and anger and frustration and focus on you and the kids.

Well....that's it. She is filing papers and each time I talk to the kids they tell her and then she tells me about things that got lost in translation...and she is really only a shell occupying space. I did tell her that the only way I see to get past this is to not see her, talk to her, message, or anything that goes beyond what is necessary for the welfare of our sons.
The kids absolutely hate that idea....so it's off the table. If she wants to hang out downstairs with the kids, so be it if that makes them happy. I don't want her to come up here where kitchen and living room are, will see how that plays out. Worst case I have to put a lock on the door for upstairs.
I'm tired and I just want this all be over. I tried everything I could, even things that I absolutely hated. I mentioned again that we should consider making things work, but she has zero interest in it. She says there are too many things I did to her that she just cannot have any feelings for me anymore. Those things are mostly petty stuff. Yesterday she cited her first Mother's Day where I got her only a card rather than have a huge party. I didn't know that her family was that big into celebrating things like that, mine wasn't. My mom didn't get anything for Mother's Day until my brother and I were old enough to draw a picture or sth like that. My dad had never anything to do with it. If it really bothered her that much she should have said something. Her view on all these things are that she didn't think she should ask for things, that I should have done it on my own account. She should just had freaking said something, made a scene, get really pissed off. Maybe other men are different, but I need a big waving of the flag pole, not just some nonverbal cues for a few seconds. She did once, well, it was rather extreme, she got drunk and laid in the snow outside face down. I had mandatory overtime at work and she thought that I preferred to be at work than spend time with her and the kids. S17 was 9 at the time and he called 911. The medics called me at work, which was lucky because I saw the call come in and ripped the receiver off hook because after 6PM the phone system sends everything straight to voice mail. I went home immediately, next day I told my boss I can't do the overtime. I told her why and she sent me home for the rest of the day. I no longer had to stay until 10PM in the office after that.

I'm done with this and want it to be over as soon as possible. I try to work with her to get this done without mediators and lawyers and court dates. We set up an agreement and then go to a notary public to sign it there and have it notarized. It is as much protection for her as it is for me. Otherwise any one of us could alter the agreement and claim that is what was signed. Not that I expect that we would ever do that, but none of us knows in which dire straits we might get.

Sad thing is, I want to stay married to her, my sons don't want her to divorce me, none of us wants her to move out...but she just doesn't want to change paths. Well, so be it. I'm sorry that I let her down, but that she sees absolutely nothing wrong with cheating on me is a deal breaker. Until that changes we are probably better off apart.

It's rough...only the drugs keep me somewhat calm, but at times even that is not enough. I can't take anymore. There is some good coming from it. I make new friends and since my wife does not want my love anymore I have plenty of it to give away to others. Learned that my new friend Andrea is sleeping on a borrowed, self-deflating air mattress and in the same apartment as her mom and daughter. She has fibromyalgia and deals with enough pain already. She cannot work and depends on food pantry handouts. I got her a mattress so that she no longer has back aches after each night. No idea why the nicest people get hit so hard. I wish I could do more for her.
My other friend Annmarie has MS, we talk every day and her spirit carries me through the hard days. And then there is the special ed teacher from Long Island who I chat with since almost a year. She has schiziophrenia, but also a heart of gold. Helping out many coworkers, one sent me an "I love you", the other invited me for lunch last Friday. And then there is Tammy who months ago blocked me for reasons I don't knoiw, but she reached out and we kinda hit it off online (which means not much in real life). She was married to a guy from India who came to the US and once his 2 years were up he took his stuff and moved to NYC. He divorced her, remarried, and has his well-doing business in his new wife's name so that he can claim to be piss poor to not pay child support. Tammy had to move in with her mom. So that her daughter has her own room, she sleeps in the same bed as her mom. Heartbreaking and heartwarming at the same time that family pulls together. And I hang out once in a while with Renee and her bff Phil. Went geocaching on Monday and I brought S13 along.

It is a good reminder that my life is still damn good. I never had to move back in with family, never had to go to the food pantry, and never had to sleep on the floor.
In case you wonder...Renee and I are only friends. She is fun to hang out with, watch soccer, and hit the bar, but I have no romantic feelings for her, I think it is mutual. We highly respect each other.
The other three....hmmm....time will tell. Then again, I think I should wait a while after divorce to think about these things. Right after I fear would be too much of "I want a replacement now", I wonder if my affection could be genuine. Especially when very faint in the back of my head I still have hopes for Wendy to change her mind...but I can't wait for that.

Makes me happy to have so many great friends and coworkers.Maybe I am not that bad of a person as I believed.

Originally Posted by DaveK

I did tell her that the only way I see to get past this is to not see her, talk to her, message, or anything that goes beyond what is necessary for the welfare of our sons.

ACTIONS, not WORDS. Just do it. You don't have to announce it to her.

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I'm tired and I just want this all be over.

I understand that sentiment, but there is no easy exit, there is no "ripping the band-aid off". Separation won't bring you relief. Divorce won't bring you relief. Only TIME will.

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I tried everything I could

You haven't tried the most important technique of all- PATIENCE. Quit trying tricks to get her back. Pull back and give her time and space. Do what you said above, stick to business-only with your contact with her.

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I mentioned again that we should consider making things work, but she has zero interest in it.

Of course not, not now. You're being too impatient and every time you say stuff like this you're applying pressure at a time she wants zero pressure.

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She says there are too many things I did to her that she just cannot have any feelings for me anymore. Those things are mostly petty stuff.

Here's an area you need to do a 180 on. Those things that seem "petty" to you may be a very big deal to her. So if you just blow them off then you are trampling on her feelings. LISTEN. VALIDATE.

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Yesterday she cited her first Mother's Day where I got her only a card rather than have a huge party. I didn't know that her family was that big into celebrating things like that, mine wasn't. My mom didn't get anything for Mother's Day until my brother and I were old enough to draw a picture or sth like that. My dad had never anything to do with it. If it really bothered her that much she should have said something.

You got her a card for Mother's Day and that is it? REALLY? And you think this is her being petty? Wow. Look, you really dropped the ball here and now you are trying to blame HER for it. You need to take a good, hard look at yourself through HER eyes. This is an example of being a poor husband. I'm actually embarrassed for you that all you did was buy her a card and now you are being haughty about it insisting that she should have told you if she wanted more than a card! Can you really not see how WRONG you are here?

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Her view on all these things are that she didn't think she should ask for things, that I should have done it on my own account.

She is right.

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She should just had freaking said something, made a scene, get really pissed off. Maybe other men are different, but I need a big waving of the flag pole, not just some nonverbal cues for a few seconds.

She needs to teach you how to be a caring husband? Is that actually your view?

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I'm done with this and want it to be over as soon as possible.

Then you are doomed to repeat your mistakes. You need to take some time to OWN what you did wrong in the M, to work on your faults and become the best H possible whether that be for your current W or the next one.

Hi AnotherStander - thanks for your reply.
Was a lousy card good enough? Of course it was not. But last Tuesday was the first time she brought this up...after 16 years. Growing up we didn't make a big deal out of holidays other than birthdays or Christmas. That wasn't out of ignorance or disrespect, but simply that we expressed gratitude in ways other than buying stuff and having big parties.
Not to turn that into a tit for tat...but I didn't even get a lousy card for my first father's day...or any father's day. My mom and my father in law send me cards, my wife and kids never did.

I never claimed to be a saint. I have screwed up plenty and I regret it a lot. In many cases I just didn't know any better. For example, working hard and at time more than the standard 40 hours. Every single dad I ever knew did that. Of course one can claim that all this is only excuses, but I see it more as that I just didn't know any better. It was not malicious, it wasn't that I loved work more than my wife, quite contrary. I made sure that I won't get laid off and it paid out at one time when we went down at work from 30 to 6 and I was one of the 6. Even my boss got canned.I have a hard time taking blame for that.

As far as speaking up....it's both ways. Often times she said "I can do it...", "I take the kids...", "I take care of it...". Even when I planned on doing things she told me not to do it, she will take care of it. For example, I took our cars for oil changes since we have them. So I told W once that I will need her car on Saturday morning for the oil change, just to let her know so that she doesn't make plans. She told me "Don't worry, I do it Monday". I was going there anyway for my car and the place is in walking distance. So I usually brought one car, walked back home, drove there with the other car, waited until the first car was done, drove back home, walked back to the shop, and got the second car. In the end it was that I "always" made her bring the car for oil changes.
Or my son joining a choir, rehearsals were on Saturday mornings. W:"I take him, he will love it." Yes, I admit that it probably should have come to mind to tell her that I take him once in a while. I offered that for other activities and each time it was "nah, I can do it, don't worry". All it would have taken her is to say "yes, thanks".
Or she mentioned that I never stayed home when she was sick. I have emails to my bosses stating otherwise, but when she was not feeling well I always asked her "Do you want me to stay home?" She never said yes. Her complaint is that I should not have asked, but just done it. It wasn't that I didn't care at all. All that it would have taken was a very simple word: "yes".

I admit that I was lazy with chores around the house other than things like taking care of the garden, trash, and the house itself. I get that, doing dishes or laundry would not have killed me. I was blind as far as that goes. I get it, it was wrong, I fixed that now. I do almost all laundry, take care of dishwasher, and do dishes as often as I can. I clean the bathrooms and vacuum. Once in a while I clean the windows and steam mop all floors. I cook Thursdays, Saturdays, and Sundays.

I see it as a give and take, demand and respond, and above all to forgive and forget each other's faults and flaws. That is what love means to me. And yes, saying what the heck you want. All it took was "I cook and you do the dishes tonight." I would not have taken that as bitchy or needy or anything. It is pointing out "I do this for you and you do that for me." In the end either one is for "us". Don't tell me "I do the dishes tomorrow" or "I really want to do the dishes now so that I don't have to look at them in the morning". And in most cases I dried and put stuff away

She claimed that sex was boring. When we knew we are seriously in this relationship she told me all the things she does not want me to do to her. There wasn't much left. She said this once and quite clearly... and I honored her wishes until she said she wants to try sth else. So we did that. I never missed anything, it was always like fireworks for me. I didn't even care that much about sex. My most satisfying moments were showering together. And I told her that. Or just sitting together closely, knowing that she is there, feeling that this is not a dream. The hug in the morning was always the best. I felt as if nothing could happen to me. I told her that many times.

So as much as I flopped on doing something without prodding she flopped on expressing what she wants, what she dislikes, what upset her. If she told me 16 years ago "What? All you get me is a [censored] card??" it would have rattled my foundations....and I would have never forgotten that. That is not teaching me on how to be a caring husband, it is shaping me to be a better person. The same thing my best friends tell me and I tell them.

I'm living for the first time, I am married for the first time, I am a dad for the first time (for the most part)....I am bound to make mistakes. Everybody does. We are not always perfect, at times far from it. At times we make the same mistakes a few times until it sinks in. I think that is OK, especially when there was an attempt, an effort made.

Patience...it's been a year and if anything things got worse.

=======

Yes, I am tired. This is going on for a year now. For months she announces she will file papers imminently and move out asap. So far I have not seen any papers and she is still here. I am tired of this situation. It pulls energy and strength out of me. I get 3 to 4 hours sleep each night . I am on the max dose of Wellbutrin and Lamotrigine. I just can't do this anymore. I fall asleep in meetings at work or at red lights when driving home. Once evening comes I am spent. I take the kids to all their appointments, dentist, pediatrist, specialist, optometrist, therapist. I do so much more than I ever did....for my marriage it doesn't do a thing. On top of that, the loneliness is killing me. I'm at the end of my rope and beyond that. I don't want a divorce, but signing the papers will be a relief.

As if things could not get any more messed up! Over half a year ago in a moment of rage I sent a two line FB message to OM to leave my wife alone and stop destroying our family. It was a rather dumb thing to do, but back then I was angry and blamed him for showing up in W's life. By now I understand that this was truly a pure coincidence.
I didn't see any response, and soon after deleted that conversation and had forgotten about it. Until this morning. OM messaged me back telling me he does not want W to get divorced and he does not want to destroy my family. At first I had no idea what he was talking about, but it took him half a year to see that message.

By now I think differently about a lot of things. It's not his fault that W is throwing herself at him. I told him that and I thanked him that he makes W happy. I truly think that and I know that he is a very good friend for W. His English is rather crappy, so I don't think he really got the message. I told him in various ways that it's not his fault, that he did not do anything wrong, that I have no complaints, and that it is ultimately W's decision as to what happens. I apologized for having sent that message. I told him several times that I was angry back then, but are no longer angry now, and especially not about him.
I really have no beef with that guy. I think he is rather immature and clueless (I didn't tell him that, of course!), but I don't think he is a bad person.I also don't think that he set out to be a homewrecker. As far as I am concerned, that settled it. He told me that he will watch the cricket game and I told him that I hope he has fun (I bet he did, India won big time).

So fast forward to this afternoon. I get a new message from him, with a screenshot of what I wrote eons ago. He asked me why I would write that and I only need to say something and he will go away. Sigh!

My car is in the body shop, but I had to bring S13 and myself to the dentist. So rather than take the bus and walk through half of downtown I asked W if I can have the car today. I gave her my bus pass and offered her to drive her in the morning so that she gets there at the usual time. When we sat in the car I told her what happened, because I rather have her hear it from me than from her bf. Not that surprisingly, I was too late and she already knew about everything. I offered her to read what I wrote him today, but she didn't want to. I bet she saw it almost as soon as I typed it.

So that was a rather bizarre encounter on what was a weird day altogether. When we were at the dentist the power went out, so they had to do the cleanings the old fashioned way. It was rather weird, the hygienist had to kneel down at one point to get to where she needed to go in my mouth. She always mentioned that she is doing this for 25 years (she looked like 30...not important) and I could notice because I didn't feel anything. It was rather pleasant.

I got two free tickets for a comedy show on Saturday. I offered W to join me, but she was indecisive which I take as a no. I know...don't pursue....but I really don't care about that any longer. For far too long I played a person that wasn't me. I want to be the caring guy that I should have been for a long time. I feel comfortable and happy that way.
I ask W again tomorrow. If she doesn't want to go I invite one of my friends who doesn't have money to go out. Drinks are on me, not that I'd drink much since I have to drive. I feel better, almost at peace and happy. I didn't feel like this for a very long time. It's scary. I don't even care anymore how messed up this whole thing is.

So what to do on a Wednesday night? I didn't feel like going to game night. W asked me if I wanted beer, so she bought us some. A weird ending of a weird day.

Dave,

the OM does bear some fault in this ordeal, and I wouldn't say he's a good person at all.

I think you got some good advice, but I will dissent on the mother's day card. I don't believe in gifts for cheaters. I wouldn't have gotten her a thing. She hasn't ended the affair, so there's no sense in giving her the benefits of marriage.

I hope you continue to let her go and love yourself. I hope you feel better. Your thoughts control your emotions, and if you control your thoughts you can start to feel better. Good luck my friend.

ovrrnbw - Thanks for your response. As far as the card goes, I bought it for my sons to give to their mom. It sounds like a technicality, but for me there is a difference. Either way, I know that she doesn't deserve things, but in some cases it makes me happy. That is also my selfish motivation with helping others. It makes me happy. If someone else has a less shitty day because of it even better.

...as far as advice goes. I am sure that it is solid advice. Going dark and taking full control of finances rather backfired. Maybe I did it wrong, but especially staying as distant as possible made me miserable. It is not my nature and it brought a tension at home that had a negative impact on the relationship with my sons. I don't by any means want to give the impression that I think I was set up for failure here, definitely not. It just didn't work out under the circumstances. Now that I get to talk to many people with depressed spouses I see that most face the exact same issues. Their spouses are in a different reality and no matter what they do for them, it is never good enough. None of us has found a means to foster positive change. What I and others really need is advice on how to go about someone who is unable to make rational decisions, is not swayed by reason, and does not register a difference in treatment of them, no matter what it is. I think that is why the suggested path of action didn't work out.
I talk a lot to W's dad and even he says that I have done everything under the sun that was possible, that I showed remorse, and made changes based on what W told me. He thinks she needs a kick in the pants and be forced to make a decision. It is a very difficult thing to do, but anything is better than the way it is now.

DaveK,

I am so sorry that you are going through this. I feel my wife is depressed, and I can't get her to realize it. She is overwhelmed by everything in life. But in her mind, she a absolutely okay. In fact, "she is the only adult in the relationship."

Dave we get this a lot. Here is the problem. DBing isn't something you do to gauge your W's response. It is something you become. You have no control over her, and anything you do to try to manipulate her is still trying to control. DBing is about focusing on you. Giving her the space she asked for to figure it her stuff, and becoming a mysterious alpha male that will eventually appear attractive again.

If your sons were upset with you it sounds like maybe you misunderstood. Many LBSs think detachment means ignoring their WAS. It doesn't. Quite the opposite, actually. It just means you don't react emotionally to what they say and do.. She could come to you and tell you she had a gangbang with 100 guys. And it would roll of your back like water off a duck. Detachment is about finding happiness internally, not externally. It is being present, pleased, upbeat. It replaced the mopiness, sadness, woe is me that most LBSs become after BD, and that most WASs expect from their LBS.

So if you too the advice here about GAL, 180ing, and detachment, and then constantly were taking your W's temperature to gauge reaction, then you were doing it wrong.

We have a saying around here, it always gets worse before it gets better. Nothing worthwhile is without pain. There is no magic bullet; "say or do this and this will happen". It unfortunately doesn't work that way. Even DBing isn't fail proof. Your wife could still walkaway. But DBing will help you save yourself.... And sometimes that will have an affect for the positive on your WAS.

Oh, one last thing. Believe nothing they say and half of what they do extends to OP too. Often times OP will play the victim;"she told me her marriage was ending anyway!" They are cheaters, which means they lie. Even if you told him to go away, likely they would just take things to an even more discreet level. The bottom line is you still have no control.

Destroyd - yep, everything is my fault and she only "takes care of her feelings the first time in her life". I had enough of this and I helped her over the weekend to get the paperwork done. There is one last bit of information I inquired about and then she will file for divorce under the agreed upon terms. I made it a condition that she has to move out before the end of the year.

Now to something absolutely bizarre....her bf won't stop chatting with me. It's not about her or me, it is about cricket mostly and that India is just a friggin hot place temperaturewise. Until yesterday when he begged me to videochat with him. So I did. He was piss drunk, he invited me to India, he kinda hit on me just to explain right after that he is not gay. That he doesn't want to break up my family and blah blah blah. I find this all only hilarious. I'm happy that I can care less, I no longer feel any anger or desperation, no pain...and sadly I feel absolutely nothing when I look at my wife.

Met today someone who I know for a long time has a total crush on me. It was just for a minute and her mom and daughter were with her. They were around where I work and I said she can swing by. So she did. She almost didn't let go of me. I like her, but maybe this is all too fresh or online and a minute live in a parking lot just isn't enough. I wasn't swept off my feet, but it did put a smile on my face for the rest of the day. She did call off our "date" on Saturday. She said one of her rules in life is to never go out with a married man. I know she was dying to go out with me, but she put her values and ideals above her desire and I find that quite impressive.

I found new friends, I know of people who respect me, some adore me...and the other way around. I met people who have a really shitty life, but have hearts of angels. They talk to me because they want to talk to me, they understand I need someone. They taught me a lot and pushed me off my apparently high horse. I never had to worry about getting my clothes washed or had to hit all the food pantries in a 20 mile radius to get by. I never had to sleep on the floor or reschedule doc appointments so that I have enough gas in the car to see my kid on the weekend. That friend has a unique humor and the fabulous talent of making me laugh even when I am totally destroyed and a sobbing mess. I sent her some money so that she can buy a mattress so that she no longer has to sleep on the floor. She didn't, she paid her mom's Life Alert bill so that she didn't have to overdraft her account, she got the favorite snacks and juice for her daughter who she sees only on weekends so that they can go to the park and have a picnic.She could have said, that's for me, but she didn't. That's love and it is beautiful.

I still love my wife and I still wish she would change her mind. There isn't anything more that I can do. I let her go and do her own thing, whatever that is. I take care of the kids and make sure that they get what they need and more. I won't put my life on hold for the small chance of her asking to come back. I showed her that I regret what happened and that I can do better.I put everything I had into it and if that is not enough then so be it. I am worried that she ends up in a worse spot than she was, but I have no control and she has all the right to make ridiculously stupid decisions.

Steve85 - It is well possible that I didn't convert into action what was given in advice here. Maybe my expectations of anything happening were too high. I also didn't mean at all that the advice was bad, it didn't work out for this case. So yes, there is no magic bullet or a recipe to success.
I'm at peace with myself and whatever happens. I found new purposes in life and they bring me a lot of joy. And I get the reward for it right away. Never before did someone write this to me: "You are an incredible person and please don�t under-value yourself... the past is the past... you don�t live there anymore... you can only live in the present and damn, what a wonderful way you�re doing it! Be proud of the changes you have made to become the man you are today... not everyone gets to be my favorite German Potato"
If my wife doesn't wants to have a piece of that potato then I can't help her.

Divorce papers filed. Life is not over, time to move on.

Hang in there! Things will get better once you are able to put this in the past.

Originally Posted by DaveK

Divorce papers filed. Life is not over, time to move on.

Sorry to hear it Dave, did she file them or did you?

Originally Posted by DaveK

Divorce papers filed. Life is not over, time to move on.

In my opinion I only consider divorce to be the dissolution of the legal social contract. My sitch would have not been much different if W had moved out without a D. I found that the D actually helped me detach better.

Hang in there

DaveK,

It's good to hear you are GAL. I know your two boys mean so much to you. Remember they are going through this just as much as you are even though they may express other feelings and emotions to you.

I am sorry to hear of your latest news but the way you have been spiraling downward while you are GAL causes me to feel you will be so much better off without her.

I encourage you to keep learning and growing and taking care of yourself. Sounds like you got a good support group out there and also that you are great support to others.

You're a good guy Dave. Keep living and love life with your boys. If there is one thing, if your boys are begging and pleading and want you two to be civil, I'd take that into consideration. What in the next year or two if your boys want to celebrate a holiday with everyone together or to be cordial in the same room. Would you not do that for them and put your feelings aside?

Chin up and don't stop the self improvements.

She filed them...I didn't want the divorce and still think it is a ridiculously stupid idea, but it is out of my control. She wants 30k over 10 years and the car...and the InstaPot. Kids stay with me, I get the house and everything in it. She doesn't even want anything from my IRA, 401k, company stock. Not sure if I should take that as an insult or not.
Still talking to her bf in India. He's not the sharpest tool in the shed, so I think W just uses him because he was an easy victim. He feels bad for breaking up my family and I truly believe him. It's her who ....I don't even know how to describe it.
Anyway, I will be at my best for her. She may not deserve it, but I would not feel right to do it any other way. So I will take her out for dinner for her birthday and to the pub after. Her bf highly recommended to take her to an Indian restaurant, there is a decent one downtown. He also told me that she always talks about getting a guinea pig, so I will get her a gift card for the pet store. When she moves out she can get one and have some company, should be not a problem in most places she will move to. I know I can't buy her back and that is not my motivation at all. I want to give her the respect and decency she lacks giving me.

Ran out of coffee this morning. She was not happy and drove to the store to get more. At least now there is a plausible reason for divorce.

Dave,

Stand up and take back your dignity. Your W can't have a BF bc she is married! Apparently you need the reminder as much as her. Quit talking to the scumbag OM. Block him. Don't take your WW out for dinner. Don't buy her a gift. Instead go GAL so that you can feel better and be happy in your own life. Your update reeks of defeat and I can't stand it. So pick up the pieces and get back on track.

And accept her ridiculously stupid offer ASAP.

ovrrnbw - You may consider it defeat, but I don't see it that way. I really don't care anymore what W does. Wasn't one of the objectives to detach? I think I detached as much as possible. "No, you didn't!" you might say. Why buy her gifts? Not because I think I can buy her back or that I want to impress her or any of that nonsense. It is purely selfish because it makes me happy.

As far as OM goes....after talking to him for a while it becomes apparent that he is as much a victim as I am. I'm convinced that W will not move in with him or move to India. He's a distraction from her from her own issues. She constantly asks each of us to block the other, but we won't do it.
It is not that he stole W. He is young, he is dumb, mom does everything for him, dad fixes things when he messes up....along comes a pretty woman who makes his head spin and tells him that being with her is totally OK, not only that, a white American woman with long blonde hair, the beauty ideal of Indian men. I get it, it was too tempting to say no and walk away. His naivety did him in and he starts to realize it. He also starts to realize that I am not that despicable monster that I was presented as. Today he told me that he used to drink a lot and got very violent. He almost shot two people, he beat up a police officer, he lost a ton of money gambling, and went to jail for half a year for illegal gambling. I don't know if he made that stuff up, but it either is true, or he really is that whacked that he thinks that impresses people. I know that he still drinks quite a bit. He seems to think to make up for it by going to temple every day. His English is rather limited, so having a deeper conversation with him isn't possible. IMHO he has loser written all over him and W's interest was just perfect to brag to his friends.

I think me talking to him makes W extremely jealous.And him not wanting to stop talking to me really pisses W off to no end. He keeps telling me that W loves me, but I don't believe that for a second. If it wasn't him it would have been some other poor shmuck. It really is not him, it is all her.

I have reached a point where I don't think there is a way back. A couple months ago there would have been, but I grew tired of W come home, do FB, drink beer, go to bed, get up, do FB, drink coffee, go to work...rinse and repeat. She doesn't do [censored] around the house, doesn't do much with the kids, just remains her selfish self, shell of her former self.

I am getting a life, I get out of the house, there is hardly a weekend where I do not meet up with someone, I plan on visiting friends who live a bit further away, but I can make it there and back in a day. I picked up writing again, go to play board games once a week and are considered a regular and get invited to parties, I go out for a beer with coworkers, picked up geocaching as a new hobby, have plenty to do with my stamp collection, made S17 very happy by letting him use my base guitar and getting him some effect pedals, S13 gets a full bedroom makeover with new wall paint, new loft bed, and eventually new lighting, garden is doing well, and I get to help people. I did many things for my new friends. Some just want someone to hang out with, some need someone to talk to, a few needed money, one needs a motivator to get life back on the right track.

My original intent was to save my marriage. I think I tried it any which way until I found a way that I won't regret of going. I put everything I have out there, I gave everything I have. If that is not enough then I can't help it. In the end it does take two and if one doesn't want it no matter what I can't do much about it. So we split up. I could sit and wait for her to change her mind, but how long would I have to wait? A year? Two years? Longer? I don't have the emotional and mental energy to keep the pause button pressed. Do I really want to be with someone who did the worst thing to me that I can imagine and doesn't even feel bad about it? I can't touch her, I can't talk to her, in her view I can't do anything right. Even if she comes around, so I want to be with someone who I can't fully trust? Can I live with the fear of some word or action setting off the same reaction again?
W will always have a place in my heart. She is the mother of my children and she made me very happy for half of my life.But she made damn sure that the last spark of love for her is gone, she stomped on it long enough to kill it. I will never understand why. I am sure it has to do with her depression. This behavior is very common for a depressed spouse, but being depressed doesn't excuse being a total jerk.I'm not angry, not desperate, just sad that it ended this way.

I did meet someone. She has a massive crush on me. We went bowling and I took her out for dinner, but halfway into dinner we kinda ran out of things to talk about. She kept hugging and kissing me and I didn't feel anything. We still talk online, but I haven't met her again. She is a nice person, but there was absolutely nothing. I did learn from it that I am apparently ready to move on, but don't really want to as long as I am married. I didn't expect that she goes all in like that and maybe it was far too early. I don't know. It starts to get annoying that she keeps hitting on me hard.
One of my good friends happens to be female, but we just hang out. We either go geocaching or to the biergarten to watch soccer. She never mentioned anything other than that I should stop being nice to her. I really don't do anything different than with my other friends. Once she had at least one too many and she gave me a 10 minute hug. That was weird and she kept apologizing for it for a week. I don't know, maybe she is too afraid to say something, wondering if that would end the friendship. She introduced me to her bff. I never met someone and hit it off that quickly. He is a tech nerd and has the perfect style of dry humor that makes me laugh. His name happens to be Phil, same name as my buddy from work. In conversation we always have to clarify which Phil we mean. Similar in the board game group with three Davids.

Honestly, I am quite happy. I got some really good friends and I found a way to bring joy to my life. That marriage and divorce stuff...I stopped obsessing about it. Being alone with the sons will be a challenge, but I grew up a lot the past half year. Uh, and that promotion at work, that is likely to happen within the next two months. Knowing where I was half a year ago, I think I did quite well. Didn't all work as intended, but most of it did. And getting control over my own depression had a lot to do with it. As far as W is concerned, she has the divorce papers ready. I have to ask her if she filed them already. I have no control over what she does and the agreement we came to is rather reasonable and doesn't put a huge burden on me. There is no crisis, no defeat, or anything. I may have given up, but it is more accepting reality.

Hope you're doing well Dave. Merry Christmas.