Hello everyone. I am new here. I am in need of help. I read DR already but can really use some advice. I have been on here for 2 months reading and have finally deciding to put my story out there.
In August 18 I realized my wife was becoming very angry towards me so I asked her what was going on. After a long talk she said she just wasn’t happy, she explained with her whole life. So, I told her we should just take a break for a few days and that I would move in with my parents this way she can cool off and then I will move back in a few days. We talked everyday on the phone, oh and we have 2 kids D11 and S8. When we talked on the phone she explained that she felt that I didn’t love her because i didn’t kiss her every time I walked out of the house, didn’t greet her at the door when she got home, didn’t kiss her EVERY night we went to bed or that sometimes we didn’t watch tv together. My wife is a big slob she never cleans up after herself or puts her clothes away. My house is a mess all the time. So, I told her her yeah there were times I did not want to kiss her because I would ask her to just put her stuff away and she wouldn’t. She couldn’t believe that I would get upset over that. During this my 2 kids were very upset and crying that we split. Well after a few days I asked if I could come home, she said no, she wasn’t ready. After a few more days I asked again and she said no. I then suggested a MC. She said she would go. After 4 weeks and 4 sessions she said she wasn’t going anymore the MC was taking my side. So we stopped going. But in the last session the MC suggested I move back in the basement (apartment down there) and try and see how living together would work: she was totally against it but I did it anyway. So in the middle of September 18 I moved back in to the basement. At that time she grew very angry that I was back in the house. Sorry one bit of information I left out, we have been married for 14 years and together for 19. I am 40 and she is about to turn 40. Once I moved back in that’s when she started to change. All of a sudden she wanted to go out bar hopping. Which she is not a big drinker at all. Started to become friends with more divorced women. Then in October I asked her if she wanted a legal separation, she said she wasn’t sure. I couldn’t handle living in limbo so I felt I needed her to make a decision. So, in October 18 I decided to reach out to a mediator and have them send her a letter. With the hopes this would snap her out of it and she would want to work on the marriage. When she received the letter in the mail she was shocked. I told her we can either forget the mediator and work on the marriage or do the legal separation. She said she needed to think about it.
Well it backfired, she went and got a lawyer and filed for divorce. When that happened I said what are you doing, she said might as well just get divorced then. Meanwhile she was spending thousands of dollars on a New wardrobe, putting herself in debt(thank to we had split the money before that) going to the gym more, which she hated to do. Bought a spray tanning package. It was like she was becoming a whole new person. Every weekend bar hopping till 1-2 in the morning. I could never talk to her, she would give me one word answers.
Fat forward to January 19 she went out and got a new car, hair extensions and lightened her hair. I tried very hard to stall the divorce because after so much reading I know she is going through a midlife crisis. She rewrote our marital history telling me she has been unhappy for the last 2 years. Never once did she express that to me or anyone. I even sat down with her parents and they said they don’t know what she is doing. Because of her debt she couldn’t afford the lawyer anymore, so she said she wanted to use a new mediator, not the one I originally picked. So, at the end of January we have been going to a mediator. We went twice already.
My question is should I move out again. While I’m in the house I am doing the food shopping , house cleaning, picking the kids up from school, taking them to activities taking care of the bills. And she looks at me as a built in babysitter. Do I stay or move out. Please help.
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Hello everyone. I am new here. I am in need of help. I read DR already but can really use some advice. I have been on here for 2 months reading and have finally deciding to put my story out there.
In August 18 I realized my wife was becoming very angry towards me so I asked her what was going on. After a long talk she said she just wasn’t happy, she explained with her whole life. So, I told her we should just take a break for a few days and that I would move in with my parents this way she can cool off and then I will move back in a few days. We talked everyday on the phone, oh and we have 2 kids D11 and S8. When we talked on the phone she explained that she felt that I didn’t love her because i didn’t kiss her every time I walked out of the house, didn’t greet her at the door when she got home, didn’t kiss her EVERY night we went to bed or that sometimes we didn’t watch tv together. My wife is a big slob she never cleans up after herself or puts her clothes away. My house is a mess all the time. So, I told her her yeah there were times I did not want to kiss her because I would ask her to just put her stuff away and she wouldn’t. She couldn’t believe that I would get upset over that. During this my 2 kids were very upset and crying that we split. Well after a few days I asked if I could come home, she said no, she wasn’t ready. After a few more days I asked again and she said no. I then suggested a MC. She said she would go. After 4 weeks and 4 sessions she said she wasn’t going anymore the MC was taking my side. So we stopped going. But in the last session the MC suggested I move back in the basement (apartment down there) and try and see how living together would work: she was totally against it but I did it anyway. So in the middle of September 18 I moved back in to the basement. At that time she grew very angry that I was back in the house. Sorry one bit of information I left out, we have been married for 14 years and together for 19. I am 40 and she is about to turn 40. Once I moved back in that’s when she started to change. All of a sudden she wanted to go out bar hopping. Which she is not a big drinker at all. Started to become friends with more divorced women. Then in October I asked her if she wanted a legal separation, she said she wasn’t sure. I couldn’t handle living in limbo so I felt I needed her to make a decision. So, in October 18 I decided to reach out to a mediator and have them send her a letter. With the hopes this would snap her out of it and she would want to work on the marriage. When she received the letter in the mail she was shocked. I told her we can either forget the mediator and work on the marriage or do the legal separation. She said she needed to think about it.
Well it backfired, she went and got a lawyer and filed for divorce. When that happened I said what are you doing, she said might as well just get divorced then. Meanwhile she was spending thousands of dollars on a New wardrobe, putting herself in debt(thank to we had split the money before that) going to the gym more, which she hated to do. Bought a spray tanning package. It was like she was becoming a whole new person. Every weekend bar hopping till 1-2 in the morning. I could never talk to her, she would give me one word answers.
Fat forward to January 19 she went out and got a new car, hair extensions and lightened her hair. I tried very hard to stall the divorce because after so much reading I know she is going through a midlife crisis. She rewrote our marital history telling me she has been unhappy for the last 2 years. Never once did she express that to me or anyone. I even sat down with her parents and they said they don’t know what she is doing. Because of her debt she couldn’t afford the lawyer anymore, so she said she wanted to use a new mediator, not the one I originally picked. So, at the end of January we have been going to a mediator. We went twice already.
My question is should I move out again. While I’m in the house I am doing the food shopping , house cleaning, picking the kids up from school, taking them to activities taking care of the bills. And she looks at me as a built in babysitter. Do I stay or move out. Please help.
No, you should never have moved out. In fact, you should never have given up the MBR.
Your W is wayward. MLC or not, doesn't matter. She is having her cake and eat it too. Here is my advice:
- Setup a childcare schedule. It isn't fair that it is all on you. You should be doing 50/50. Get her to agree to that.
- When you are with your kids, you are super father. They are #1. Nothing is priority over them. They get 100% of you. On her days YOU ARE BUSY. GAL like a madman. Go out and do new things, meet new friends (Male only please), and enjoy life. Bowl. Go to the gun range. Test drive cars. ANYTHING, but be super-busy.
- You have a lot of 180s to work on so work on that. Get into IC pronto. Stop being passive-aggressive about the housework. Also stop doing ALL the housework. Do yours and the kids. Do not clean up after her. Do not do her laundry. Do NOT be her maid.
- Detach!! (Look up self-differentiation in marriage on Google.) Read the detachment thread. You need to be cool as cucumber. Noting affects you. You are an emotional rock around her. She could tell you she went dancing naked through downtown NY, and your response would be: "Oh, sounds like a good time!" And mean it!
Be the best Wolfman you can be. Your sitch is very similar to mine (with the house and the passive-aggressive behavior due to her slobbiness). I highly recommend reading No More Mr. Nice Guy because you sound like you have a lot of Nice Guy Syndrome tendencies.
Finally, dig in. This is a long process. You've expressed a lack of patience on your part already (not liking limbo, contacting mediator, etc). 180 on that. Become a long-suffering, patient, rock of a man! This is a marathon, not a sprint. Stop sprinting and pace yourself.
Thank you for the advice. So, I shouldn’t move out then? Also, her birthday is this Sunday, do I just get her a card from the kids and maybe a gift certificate to a store? I am going to counseling for myself. My emotions are all over the place. When I am with her I have them under control, I don’t want her to think anything is bothering me. It’s just when she goes out my mind starts to wonder what she might be doing. And yes I am mr. nice guy I will definitely start working on that.
No, moving out is never a good idea. Most D lawyers will tell you not to. Also, if she is in an active affair, not only should you move out but you should kick her out of the MBR.
Sorry you're here. Steve gave you some great advice and I'd like to add to his.
Well it backfired, she went and got a lawyer and filed for divorce.
Well, I wouldn't recommend doing things simple to "snap her out of it". That's controlling. And you probably, deep down, want her to want you right? You aren't going to keep her chained up in your dungeon right?
She rewrote our marital history telling me she has been unhappy for the last 2 years.
I don't know if this is rewriting honestly. People are usually unhappy for some time in a marriage before they become a WAS. Obviously your W is likely a WW given her lifestyle.
Where is the divorce proceeding currently? Obviously you are in Last Resort Technique territory.
If your W won't move out, you may want to move out. You can't kick her out of the house or even the MBR, but you can try. Definitely consult your lawyer before moving out. A lot of people currently advise against it, but some of the older DB'ers would propose it if the WAS wouldn't move out. It will certainly help you in these ways:
1. Detaching
2. Stopping cake eating (AKA you being the built in babysitter)
3. GAL - you'll have more freedom there
4. It will let your W feel the loss of you
The whole move out vs not move out thing is tough. Lots of DB'ers find it popular now to kick her out of the house/MBR. A stubborn wayward spouse may not go for either and ultimately you can't make them. Every DB'er agree that not staying in an open relationship is a clean boundary. But if you are under the same roof and taking care of all the things she wants you to take care, well you are in an open relationship, you are serving up cake, you aren't detaching, your W doesn't feel the loss fully, and you have less time to GAL. See the conundrum? My vote is move out if she won't, but ONLY if your lawyer says it's okay. You don't want to hurt yourself legally speaking.
Here's a thread where the guy moved out b/c he knew he couldn't stand it being under the same roof, this guy really is a great DB'er:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2833532#Post2833532
And only move out if it's what you want to. I don't like telling people how to live their lives, but you seem eager to not being sharing space with her.
I feel like if I move out it will help me detach. Also, maybe for her to see what life will be like without me. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t want her to want me back just to do things around the house, I want her to want me back because she misses me and loves me. I am so torn on what to do. Before I even consider moving out though I will speak with my lawyer.
Do not do it because you think it will help you detach. It doesn't. Those that are in home separated think those that are physically separated have it easier. Those that are separated physically think that it would be easier if they were in home separated. So don't make that decision based on ease of detachment. It is NEVER easy.
Second, never do something to TRY to manipulate or control your WAS. It never works and always backfires. If the situation is so over the top toxic, with severe mental or emotional abuse, or physical abuse of any kind, then move out. Otherwise, DO NOT MOVE OUT for any other reason.
I have time to decide. She took the kids on a cruise with some of our friends. I am in Florida visiting family. Sunday is her 40th birthday. We both get home on Sunday. Not sure what I should get her. Also, I was going to use that we been away from each other the past week for my decision to move out. I really don’t want to, just thought that would help with detachment. Which I understand what you are saying. I just think with me there she has her cake too. I definitely need to be stronger with her and create boundaries. She is good at twisting anything I say or do as me being selfish and being vindictive. Those have been her favorite words since this started. Always making me feel guilty.
Can someone tell me how to handle her birthday today? Do I get her a gift? Do I get a cake and have the kids sing happy birthday to her? Or is that me chasing her? Any advice will help.
I would make everything kids' centric. Get her a card, from the kids. Get her a cake, from the kids. Get her a gift, from the kids.
Definitely get her something from the kids only. It doesn't have to be a "kid-centric" gift, but leave the emotion out of it. No ILYs ot sappy stuff on the card. Read Sandi's rules before purchase and card writing.
Wolfman,
is there an OM in the picture? If so, get her nothing IMO.
She probably has an OM
Or at least someone she has her eye on
Do not move out
You are in the worst of it
This may last awhile
It may get worse
So you are going to have to dig deep for strength and patience
Yes she will twist everything you say
So really no point in R talks
Stick to yourself and your kids
She has her life
You have your life
She is mother to your children
So always be kind
She does not want to be your w
So back off and give her time and space
Maybe she will change her mind and want to be your w again
Maybe not
But if she does it will because she is attracted to you again
The strong wolfman who has his life together
The best wolfman the world has ever seen
Definitely get her something from the kids only. It doesn't have to be a "kid-centric" gift, but leave the emotion out of it. No ILYs ot sappy stuff on the card. Read Sandi's rules before purchase and card writing.
By kid-centric I meant if it is not involving the kids (ie, FROM the kids), then don't do. In other words, no cards from Wolfman. No gift from Wolfman.
Thank you everyone for your responses. Right now I don’t think there is a OM. I hired a Private investigator and they followed her a few times and nothing. Could she be having an EA, possibly never looked at her phone.
Just want to update and get everyone’s opinion on what happened yesterday and this morning. We are both teachers in different buildings. We had our winter recess last week, this was the first time we ever went away without each other. She took the kids on a cruise and I visited family in Florida. So, yesterday we both got back home and she was obviously in a bad mood that the vacation was over. One of our issues has been I like the house neat and clean and she doesn’t care. Since our separation I don’t go crazy cleaning the house anymore. So, it gets a bit messy now but I don’t care. One of the first things she wants to tell me about is house the house is a disaster and what a mess it is and asked me if I stopped cleaning up. I told her I was still straightening up it’s just that my 2 kids are slobs and keep making a mess. She said the house is disgusting and that she could just give it away. So, I validated her feelings that the house is a mess and the kids need to do a better job at cleaning. Then later on she started to tell me how relaxed she was on the cruise that there were no problems. Except for my D who is 11 who always is a pain in the butt. Obviously on a cruise you will be relaxed it’s vacation. She tries to push my buttons because in the past I use to have a temper. I told her I am glad it was relaxing.
We have a joint account that we both put money into to pay all the house bills and kids activities. Well, this past month there were some extra bills due. So the account was overdrawn by about $700. I told her I put $800 extra in and that she needs to put $800 in now too. She was pissed. She said, I don’t understand where is all of our money going?” I told her there extra bills due (kids insurance policy, dance fees). She was implying like I am taking extra money. I told her I would show her the checking account and what’s going out. But she didn’t want to see it. Then a few minutes later I see my daughter crying. My wife went into her room to talk to her. When I peeked my head in my wife was hugging her and my D was sobbing. I said what’s the matter, she replied she misses being on the cruise. I said I understand. But then when my wife walked out, she said she doesn’t want to be home because of the situation in the house. My D never said that. She always try’s to make me feel bad because she wants me out of the house. I told my wife what do you want me to do? She said she just wants this divorce to be done and that we have months before it will be finalized. I told her we have mediation on Thursday, I don’t know what else she wants me to do.
Yesterday was also my wife’s 40th birthday. I took everyone’s advice and took my daughter to the store to get her a small birthday cake and card from the kids with a gift certificate. I told her I can see your are mad and upset but just wanted to let her know that’s the kids got her a cake for her birthday. So, she agreed to go downstairs so we could sing happy birthday to her and have some cake. After that her mood changed and she was happy. Then they all started to share funny things that happened on the cruise for a few minutes. Then the kids went to bed.
This morning before work I went to say good bye to everyone. I go in each kids room then to my wife where she is usually in the bathroom getting ready. I go to say good bye. And she apologized for being so angry towards me yesterday. She said this whole situation just is horrible. That it’s hard on everyone and she thanked me for the cake. I told her I am sorry that this is happening. She said I don’t need to apologize anymore but here’s the thing. She said she wishes I have been doing these things sooner. And right now she has so much anger inside of her. Again, I said I should have been doing these things sooner. She said I know and then I said good bye and left. Does this mean my changes are working and I just need to be patient? Or is there something else?
Also let me add something. The house being a mess use to be an ongoing argument. I told her I don’t care about the house being a mess anymore. If it’s a mess it’s a mess if it’s clean it’s clean. I told her my family is a priority not the house. She said she wishes it would have been like that a while ago. That has been one of my big changes not complaining about the house being clean.
Wolfman,
You ask about patience. YES! YOu have to be patient. No question about it. Patience is the #1 requirement. You can't talk or act your in a few days or weeks, what has taken years to get into. So patience.
Second, remember the WAS is on a roller-coaster ride of emotions too. One of the things my W said to me during our sitch was that her feelings would change minute to minute. "Ask me how I feel right now, and in ten minutes ask again and it could be two completely different answers." The key is not to react. Don't react when she is angry and demands the D be moved forward. Don't react when she softens and claims that she is sorry for her anger. Detachment is NOT reacting emotionally to her craziness.
One observation, you are spending way too much time in the house. How is GAL going? You need to be GAL. Yes, you need to be a present father to your kids, but otherwise be busy busy busy. Join a gym. Go out with friends. Go to the gun range. Etc. but be busy. Those that struggle the most in their sitches are those that do GAL the worst. Don't be that guy, get busy and stay busy.
Last night we all ate dinner together. I thought it was interesting that my wife said, “i noticed you have been dressing differently, why the change?” I said thank you I guess and I told her I just wanted to change it up a little. So, that is something else she is noticing. I watched a movie with s after dinner and then went to the gym for hour and half. This morning she said good morning to me first which never happens. I hope these are all little baby steps in the right direction.
Whether they say anything or not, they notice the changes. No one should be fooled that they don't.
If she is noticing the changes, why is she moving forward with the divorce? Wouldn’t that make her want to try the marriage again? I believe she is going through MLC so I guess I just have to give her time. Is there anything else I should be doing? Is complimenting her ok?
If she is noticing the changes, why is she moving forward with the divorce? Wouldn’t that make her want to try the marriage again? I believe she is going through MLC so I guess I just have to give her time. Is there anything else I should be doing? Is complimenting her ok?
Wolfman, let me tell you what another marriage expert says related to a different way to ask your question. That is "When will my W come back to the marriage?" The answer: When she decides to and not a moment before.
Keep DBing, keep making 180s, keep detaching. Keep GAL, she will take note. She might come around in a week, a month, a year, or never. But pursuit and pressure will not bring her back ever. And no, compliments are pressure and pursuit. There may come a time when they will work, but that time isn't now.
Wolfman
If you are changing in a way she notices
This may just frustrate her all the more:
Wolfman was a terrible H
Now that I am finally getting my life the way I want it as a divorced woman
Wolfman decides he is going to be a wonderful H
He thinks I am going to come back to the M
Well this is all too little too late
As Steve says, just stay the course and be patient
There are no quick turnarounds
Even if we all fantasize about them
Do not follow her feelings
Do not follow your feelings
Dig down and find your beliefs
Feelings will change
Beliefs are who you are
Follow your beliefs
If she is noticing the changes,... I just have to give her time. Is there anything else I should be doing? Is complimenting her ok?
Read this:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=47467&Number=2057224#Post2057224and this:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2057372#Post2057372http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=44595&Number=1852615#Post1852615To me detachment means letting go of outcomes. I don't control the outcome so I shouldn't place my worth on the result. Doesn't mean stop caring, not trying, not having a plan, or giving up. I am solely in control of myself. If I do my best, I did all I could at the time then it has to be enough. I can learn from the experience and improve the process for future experiences.
How to practice detachment? Figure out the worst thing that could happen to you? (Spiers Doctrine - "The only hope you have is to accept the fact that you're already dead. The sooner you accept that, the sooner you'll be able to function as a soldier is supposed to function.") So the only thing that matters is are you doing the right thing. It easier to make a plan, take action and be brave when you aren't afraid of the outcome, you can't get hurt if you are already dead.
Another little baby step yesterday. My wife was in the kitchen and I went in there to get something to eat before I went to the gym. Grabbed something out of the fridge sat at the kitchen table and put the tv on. Usually my wife would walk out of the room when I entered, but instead she came over and sat at the kitchen table with me. She was on her phone looking at things. But then she asked what I was watching? Asked if we have seenthat movie. I was in complete shock. I gave one word answers tried to look interested in her. I guess when she realized I wasn’t giving her attention she then said she has been having chest pain lately and she wasn’t sure if it was heartburn. I asked if she was ok and if she needed to go to the doctor. She said no, she didn’t want to go. I said fine, I asked if she wanted some tums. She said no. I asked if there was anything I could do to help her? She said not really. I then went back to watching tv and eating. Then she got up and told me she was going upstairs. I replied, ok. Once I was done eating which was around 8:45 pm. I got changed said goodnight to the kids and told my wife I was going out. She said you going to the gym? I replied yep see you later. So the baby step was she stayed in the kitchen with me and tried talking to me and then curious where I was going. Did I handle everything well?
Pretty well. I wouldn't say anything you did was bad. But concentrate on listening....and validating. My favorite move now is when the TV is on is to either pause it or turn it off, or both, and give my W my full attention. Detachment should not come across mean, or ignoring, or passive-aggressive in anyway.
But yes, as your behavior changes so to will hers. She will have a natural curiosity to what is up and what has changed.
Did I handle everything well?
OK well a lot of people post things like this early on. They're very concerned that they might say or do some little thing that will ruin their progress. She didn't come to being a WAS overnight, it was months or (more likely) years in the making. And no one thing you do is going to bring her back or send her further away. It's the AGGREGATE of your actions that might make a difference. Consistent, changed behavior over a long period of time.
I asked if she was ok and if she needed to go to the doctor. She said no, she didn’t want to go. I said fine, I asked if she wanted some tums. She said no. I asked if there was anything I could do to help her? She said not really.
Seems like an overreaction for what she described as heartburn. Try not to act too overly concerned. When my ex BD'd me I did some snooping (before finding DB'ing) and found a message she sent to one of her friends that her worst nightmare was imagining something bad happening to her health-wise and that I would be taking care of her. WORST NIGHTMARE. Those were the words she used. Hard as it is to believe, this is how a WAS views the man she previously was madly in love with. She doesn't want your help. When she says stuff like this just nod and acknowledge. If she wants your help she'll ask for it.
I did lower the volume on the tv to show her I was interested. One of her complaints of me from the past is that I didn’t listen to her all the time. So, I want to make sure when she speaks I am engaged. I will do a better job validating instead of trying to fix. Thanks for the comments.
....she then said she has been having chest pain lately and she wasn’t sure if it was heartburn.
H:"I am sorry to hear this. Is there anything I can do?"
or
H:"do you think it is serious?"
or
"Are you concerned?"
One of her complaints of me from the past is that I didn’t listen to her all the time.
Your wife has a story to tell. Your job is to listen to her story. It is not to agree or disagree or control. It is to understand her story. If you can reflect back her feelings, then do that. H"W, that must have been frustrating."
This is extremely important when she is talking about you. Do not take it personally.
Today is our third time for mediation. I think we are suppose to talk about selling the house. I can’t believe that we are even talking about this. I don’t want to sell my house but I also can’t buy her out. I am really struggling with this, because she won’t see we had a great marriage. There was no infidelity, abuse, drugs, alcohol or gambling. Like I said in previous posts she has noticed the changes I have made and yet won’t give our marriage a second chance. There is no question here just very difficult for me to deal with all of this. I wish there was something I could do for her to give us a second chance!!
Wolfman...
I haven't commented on your sitch before, but I just wanted to say that you are not alone in what you are feeling in your last post. I'm basically a year now post-BD and can relate to the "holy s88t, we're actually doing this and she has no desire to talk about us" and "how can she just burn it all down/walk away like it was all terrible" and any number of other feelings of disbelief that you are experiencing.
The cold, hard truth is that there is nothing you can do beyond coming to acceptance that what is happening is out of your control, save yourself/kids and keeping walking your life for you. It is beyond a surreal experience. Even after a year of dealing with this stuff the whole "I can't believe this happening" still recurs in my mind from time to time.
As many vets will tell you and I'll say in cliff-notes style now, the best you can do is fully let her go/have her way and maybe someday down the line she will have second thoughts and reach out to you and maybe want to R. Thing is you will be a different person if that time comes about and you may not want her back. Too much damage could have been done by her, maybe you met someone else OR from all of the reading/learning you do on yourself and about relationships, you come to the realization that she as a person is one with whom you could never have a successful long term relationship with. At this point for me my emotions/feelings for my WW have far less to do with what I think of her in terms of her looks/my desire to have her back and way more to do with she is not a person who can have a successful relationship given her personality traits and manners. When it becomes a more cerebral decision for you and less of an emotional need for what you had in the past, that will really make it hard for you to want to R with her again.
You are early days and there is always hope. Live though only for you, invest in your life and protect yourself and your kids (if you have them) in any legal proceedings. There is a purpose for why you are going through this in your life even if it entirely makes no sense right now. Have the grace to be easy on yourself as you work your way through this.
Pulling for you...
-B
One of the things that the vets here say is,
Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what
you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because
he/she is hurting and scared.
I get that but she is moving forward with the divorce. So can I not believe her when she says she wants a divorce? We are going to mediation for the third time tonight. It doesn’t look like she is scared. I wish she was maybe she would have second thoughts. So should I believe the things she is saying?
Today is our third time for mediation. I think we are suppose to talk about selling the house. I can’t believe that we are even talking about this. I don’t want to sell my house but I also can’t buy her out. I am really struggling with this, because she won’t see we had a great marriage. There was no infidelity, abuse, drugs, alcohol or gambling. Like I said in previous posts she has noticed the changes I have made and yet won’t give our marriage a second chance. There is no question here just very difficult for me to deal with all of this. I wish there was something I could do for her to give us a second chance!!
Wolfman, I would suggest you setting up a signature like many of us has. Showing your age, her age, kids ages, and significant dates (BD, etc). It is very helpful. I know that my advice for LBSs that have kids is very different than for LBSs without kids. Kids complicate things greatly.
I understand what you are feeling. I too was in disbelief, despite understanding my ownership in it, that we were having the discussion that we were. I remember getting off the phone with a divorce attorney and thinking "did I really just have a consultation with a D lawyer?!?" It was surreal.
Hang in there, it will get better. Breathe and stay positive.
How do I set up a signature?
Me 40 W 40
D 11 S 8
Separated (moved out) 8/2018
Separated (moved in) 9/2018
W files for D 10/2018
Wolfman, click on your name up to the right under Michelle's video, and then select Edit Profile. Signature is part of the profile.
Thanks for the reminder on your sitch again with the above.
Your W is at a tenuous point in life. Women especially are susceptible to the "Decade Life Analysis Phenomenon" (I just made that up.)
I knew girls that flipped out over turning 20! 30, 40, and 50 do not get any easier. I know my wife turning 50 was a big part of our problem last year. So she is 40 now, she probably feels like life is passing her by, she has lost herself, and turning 40 has made her take stock of what she wants in the future.
Most of the times Ws like this will move at break neck speed at first. My W, the first few weeks of our sitch, was gungho. Looking for apartments (she didn't even have an income yet!), searching for jobs. Even started updating her resume. 5 weeks in it all came to a stop.
If you can be patient, DB like a boss, and be consistent, over time she might change. If you had asked me 1-4 weeks after BD what chance I gave my marriage I would have said 0-5%. It always look bleak for weeks and even months. Let he dust settle before throwing in the towel.
Since our separation I don’t go crazy cleaning the house anymore. So, it gets a bit messy now but I don’t care. One of the first things she wants to tell me about is house the house is a disaster and what a mess it is and asked me if I stopped cleaning up. I told her I was still straightening up it’s just that my 2 kids are slobs and keep making a mess. She said the house is disgusting and that she could just give it away. So, I validated her feelings that the house is a mess and the kids need to do a better job at cleaning. Then later on she started to tell me how relaxed she was on the cruise that there were no problems. Except for my D who is 11 who always is a pain in the butt. Obviously on a cruise you will be relaxed it’s vacation. She tries to push my buttons because in the past I use to have a temper. I told her I am glad it was relaxing.
I feel like maybe Im confused. Youre going to blame your house being a mess on a 11 and 8 year old? When you know damn well that she doesnt lift a finger? Maybe better is "Youre right that the house isnt looking great. Would you like to set up a clear plan going forward about who will do what to keep things nice?" She is trying to push your buttons, like you said - are you going to cower or stand up for yourself?
she said she doesn’t want to be home because of the situation in the house. My D never said that. She always try’s to make me feel bad because she wants me out of the house. I told my wife what do you want me to do? She said she just wants this divorce to be done and that we have months before it will be finalized. I told her we have mediation on Thursday, I don’t know what else she wants me to do.
Like this. What are you asking her? You KNOW what she wants. For you to just....go away.
So what can you say thats stronger? Maybe something like "I think that there are ways to resolve this situation in the house." Or just say nothing. It doesnt really matter what your W wants right now, right?
I told her I am sorry that this is happening. She said I don’t need to apologize anymore but here’s the thing. She said she wishes I have been doing these things sooner. And right now she has so much anger inside of her. Again, I said I should have been doing these things sooner. She said I know and then I said good bye and left. Does this mean my changes are working and I just need to be patient? Or is there something else?
What are you sorry for, exactly, in this moment?
Stop trying to placate her. Stand up for yourself. "Youre right, this does suck. See you later."
Not everything needs to turn into a minor R conversation.
Good luck and stay STRONG.
I’m not throwing in the towel, it’s just that she keeps moving forward with this divorce. We have been separated now for 8 months. I have been patient and working on myself. I see little changes from her, ex: she doesn’t go out as much anymore, she doesn’t leave the room all the time when I enter. Little more conversations. That’s all good stuff but she is like a locomotive, once she gets going it’s like I can’t stop her. I am trying to be strong but this is tearing me up inside.
You're right about one thing, you can't stop her. So don't try. Focus on you and let her deal with her stuff and do what she is going to do. She'll either come around or she won't, but you'll be happy, healthy and fulfilled. That is what DBing is all about.
because she won’t see we had a great marriage. There was no infidelity, abuse, drugs, alcohol or gambling.
Flip this around. Look through "her eyes":
"He doesn't see that we had a bad marriage. There was no connection, no romance, he doesn't listen to me, he just wants to argue and control me." (Or whatever issues she has)
List out things like this. Then figure out your 180s.
I have been doing 180’s on those things. I have been listening a lot more, no arguments, not controlling. The only thing I haven’t done is romance because I don’t think we are there and that would be persuing.
I get that but she is moving forward with the divorce. So can I not believe her when she says she wants a divorce? We are going to mediation for the third time tonight. It doesn’t look like she is scared. I wish she was maybe she would have second thoughts. So should I believe the things she is saying?
It doesnt mean that she doesnt believe those things right now. The things she says may be 100% true. The point is more that they might not ALWAYS be true forever.
Imagine finishing a big breakfast and then saying something like "Im so full, I dont think Ill ever eat again" That could be a completely legit feeling. Does that mean you should throw all of the food you have in your house away? Of course not. Same thing applies here. She may say things like "I was never happy and you were the reason so I need to get away from you and divorce you and blah blah blah." We arent saying that she is outright lying to you. She may even believe it 100%. The point is more that you shouldnt base your actions and decisions and emotions on the things she is saying.
For me, it was a lot easier to just assume it was all lies/crazy talk than to try to parse through things and figure out what was actionable.
Update of what happened at mediation yesterday. We talked a lot about figuring out schedule for children. We seemed to agree on a lot of it. Trying to make it as fair as possible. Then the mediator asked about what we were going to do about the house. She said she still wasn’t sure. Either her dad was going to give her the money to buy me out or we were going to sell it. She said she needed more time to think about it. Then at the end of our hour long meeting he asked what day next week worked for us to come in again. W said next week was not good because she needed to work on her observation (she is a teacher for 16 years), the mediator said haven’t you been teaching for a while, she said yeah but she needs time to work it. She said how about in 2 weeks? I don’t want to get too excited but I feel like if she wanted out of this marriage so bad, which she has expressed in the past, wouldn’t she want to have the meeting sooner? She said she needed time to also think about what she wanted to do with the house. I hope that it’s also about our situation. Again, I don’t want to look into it too much just hoping.
Then later on I went out and picked up dinner. When I got home she was upstairs, I went upstairs and told her I was home with dinner. Kids ate while we were at mediation with their grandparents. So, she told me she would be down in a few minutes. She came down and sat right next to me and we ate together were we spoke about things at work for about a half hour. Again, I hope this is a positive sign. The only thing I am afraid of is that she is looking at this as a friendship. To the vets on here, how do I know if it’s heading in the right direction (going back to husband and wife) or she is looking at our relationship as a friendship?
Last positive thing I noticed. Normally when she goes to bed, she shuts the bedroom door. Last night was the first time she left it wide open. Again, don’t know if I’m looking to deep into these things. But the book DR says to look for the little changes. What do some of the vets think?
I believe you keep focusing on your positive changes. She is noticing for sure. She is not the measurement tool. You are.
Reflect back on the mediation process. Learn this skill. The mediator knows the process. Take this as your way of negotiation.
Your W asked for more time to think. You gave this to her. At some point in the future use this:
H:"W, I need more time to think about this"
W:"Bla bla bla I need a decision now." or "Bl bla bla dragging this out" or " bla bla bla delaying on purpose"
H:"W, I am asking you to give me the same respect I gave you. During our first mediation, you wanted more time to think about what you wanted to do about the house and I did not force you to make an immediate decision. Please give me the same respect"
wolfman, yes her not wanting to go right back to mediation is a good sign. You are right in your analysis that her not wanting to go back next week shows she isn't as gungho to separate and D as possible. However I agree with R2C that you should not be looking at a gauge on her like a thermometer.
Take note of things, but do not put expectations or too much hope on them. Right now she is outside of the MR. Could she come back, sure. Is she moving back based on sitting next to you at dinner? Leaving her bedroom door open? Not running back to mediation next week? WAY to early to tell.
Wolfman, none of this matters. What matters is what you are doing. What did you do for GAL yesterday? I see you attached and reattaching based on "signs". How is your detachment and self-differentiation coming along? Are you working on your 180s, not just to make them, but to make them permanent?
Stop focusing on your W, she can feel that. You are watching every move, every emotion, every facial expression, and every tick that she makes. That is pressure. You want to remove all pressure. ALL PRESSURE. Every time you look for responses, reactions, and emotions in her she feels like an animal at the zoo. And that will push her away.
I am really struggling with this, because she won’t see we had a great marriage. There was no infidelity, abuse, drugs, alcohol or gambling.
The absence of those things does not a great marriage make. Let's go back to your original post:
When we talked on the phone she explained that she felt that I didn’t love her because i didn’t kiss her every time I walked out of the house, didn’t greet her at the door when she got home, didn’t kiss her EVERY night we went to bed or that sometimes we didn’t watch tv together.
In other words, you weren't meeting her emotional needs which is a big thing for most women.
My wife is a big slob she never cleans up after herself or puts her clothes away. My house is a mess all the time.
I am 100% sure that even if you never said that to her face, she felt it in your attitude and actions and it hurt her deeply, and over and over again over a long period of time. You made her feel worthless. Also, it is not her responsibility to keep an immaculate house. That is as much on you as it is her. You were establishing "covert contracts" where you expected her to do things and THEN you would reward her with attention/affection. Then when she didn't meet her end of the contract (which she knew nothing about because it was completely in your head) then...
yeah there were times I did not want to kiss her because I would ask her to just put her stuff away and she wouldn’t.
...you punished her by withholding affection. This is all a very damaging pattern.
I'm not trying to pick on you, most of us found our way here because we were not the best H we could be. But don't assume that just because you weren't having an affair or abusing drugs or booze that your wife was thoroughly enjoying your relationship, she wasn't!! And that is why you are here. So what do you do, you do 180's on your bad behavior, you give her time and space and work on yourself. You make yourself "the spouse only a fool would leave", and hopefully with time she will see your changes, believe they are real and find you attractive again. But it takes time.
Like I said in previous posts she has noticed the changes I have made and yet won’t give our marriage a second chance.
Yes right now she sees all your changes as "too little too late" because of how "done" she is. You've got to give her time.
I get that but she is moving forward with the divorce. So can I not believe her when she says she wants a divorce?
No she absolutely does right now. What that saying means is what she says right now is only a reflection of what she believes right this second. It can change in a day, or a week or a month or a year. So when she speaks in absolutes, like "we will never get back together" or "there is zero chance" then don't believe it because a year from now she may be singing a different tune. But is she lying about divorce? No, unfortunately that is where her head is right now.
I don’t want to get too excited but I feel like if she wanted out of this marriage so bad, which she has expressed in the past, wouldn’t she want to have the meeting sooner?
Who knows. Maybe she is just overwhelmed with everything and feels like she's being pressured. Your job is to REMOVE ALL PRESSURE. If she doesn't want to meet next week then fine, zip your lip. Just let it go. Don't wait a week or two and then ask her about it, SAY NOTHING. If you can remove the pressure she may very well put it all on the back burner and leave it there for months or forever.
She said she needed time to also think about what she wanted to do with the house. I hope that it’s also about our situation.
It's too soon for that. She may eventually, but right now she's just worn out and doesn't want to deal with it.
To the vets on here, how do I know if it’s heading in the right direction (going back to husband and wife) or she is looking at our relationship as a friendship?
The more you look the less likely she will want to recon. Because every time you put her under a microscope you are applying pressure. Back off! Quit worrying about it and over-analyzing and scrutinizing. Work on YOU and leave her alone.
After posting I see that Steve said much of the same of what I did, yes I do agree with Steve's comments!
AS, well said sir (your first comments, not the one about agreeing with me)! Wolf, AS helped me in my sitch like you cannot even believe. Please listen to his sage wisdom.
So true AS... most folks feel that "pressuring" them is asking them for temp checks, forcing R talks, forcing dates/touching, etc. before they are ready. However, the biggest form of pressure is looking for little things that they do or don't do as a "sign" of something. When I first went through this 4 years ago, that was the biggest form of pressure that she said I was putting on her. When we would have R talks, and I would list all the things that she didn't do or did do that looked as if she wasn't invested in recon, she would tell me...stop looking into to things so much. I feel guilty for things I do or don't do all the time now because I feel like you are constantly watching me.
Great points guys! Wolfman, self-differentiation and let go. You have to let go of the old R. Anything that happens between you and your W now will be a new R anyway...
Your job is to REMOVE ALL PRESSURE. If she doesn't want to meet next week then fine, zip your lip. Just let it go. Don't wait a week or two and then ask her about it, SAY NOTHING.
Tattoo this on the inside of your eyelids. Read it every time you blink.
Quick question. My wife just text me that our friend is having a birtthday party for their son. And her exact words are, “not sure if you want to go?” Do I go or not? Oh one of the things in the past is I didn’t always go with her to with these things. So do I not go as part of detaching or go as my 180? I’m so confused.
Do you want to go? If you do, then go. You won't be going for your W, you would be going for your son. I know it's hard when detaching to know how to interact, but use objectivity when making your decisions. Take your emotions out of the decisions and it will help you determine if you are making the right choice and at the same time not hurting your detaching.
Example: W-Not Sure if you want to go?
Wolf-Thanks to himself, by stepping back and pulling his emotions out. Questions to ask yourself: Is the party for my W? I'm I going for my W or son? Will my son like it if I go?
Answers: No, Son, Yes
Then go!!!! Don't miss out on memories with your son to teach your W a lesson. You won't ever get that time back.
Go for your son. Be a family even through this drama.
Quick question. My wife just text me that our friend is having a birtthday party for their son. And her exact words are, “not sure if you want to go?” Do I go or not? Oh one of the things in the past is I didn’t always go with her to with these things. So do I not go as part of detaching or go as my 180? I’m so confused.
Text back:
H:"I think it would be a good time, so yes I will go"
Not a good Sunday morning. Most mornings my W is in a bad mood because going back to work Monday. She told the kids we need to clean up the house. So far she hasn’t done anything but the kids and I have. My D was being disrespectful to my W. W hen starts to blame me that because I am still in the house. She said “when people separate they separate, not live in the same house.” I just ignored it, usually I would engage in that conversation. I know people here have told me not to leave the house, but man the verbal abuse I get every once and a while is real hard to deal with. I jus feel like crying, I am trying to be strong but his has been going on for 7 months.
I all most forgot. Score all of this happened I use to be such a strong man. I didn’t take garbage from anyone, now I have become a doormat to her. All because she use to say that I never listened to her and that I had anger issues. So, I am trying to show her I am not that angry, controlling person anymore. Why is this so difficult? I wish I could just get mad and put my feelings aside and me able to move on. Yet there is still a part of me that wants to save the marriage.
Wolfman,
what's up buddy? I got caught up on your thread this morning. I notice a theme where you make a change and then look to her. She notices it, then you wonder why she is still proceeding with the divorce. You also like to read the tea leaves quite a bit. Neither of these behaviors are benefiting you at all. I understand why you are doing them, but it won't help you. You are having a emotion vs. logic battle, so go ahead and ensure that your logic wins this one. You also state that your W may be MLC, well that should be enough to tell you that her actions and words won't be making too much sense. The answer is to detach emotionally and allow yourself to think logically. Be cognizant of your emotions and learn to manage them.
It took a long time to get to the divorce phase, it will take a while to get out of it. Your W is involved in a mental turmoil, and she is not sure about anything. But I think you are hoping your changes are going to "snap her out of it" still. And while they might, nobody knows when or if that will happen. So stop worrying about that. Read those threads that R2C linked, they are gold. The more you let go of her and work on you, the better of you and your sitch will be.
She said “when people separate they separate, not live in the same house.
I'm curious, did you somehow stop your W from moving out and separating in the way she described? If not, you should have casually reminded her of that. I'm 32 with no kids, but I can tell you that children act out. Children with an unstable home act out more. They act out for reasons that you may know better than I. Her blaming you is just a sign of her inner pain and turmoil. Don't take it personally, your W is hurting.
Stop being her doormat, but do it in alignment with your belief system. Don't be a jerk, don't be a pushover. Your current feelings with subside, find an activity to take up your time until then.
I never stopped my wife from moving out. Only one time 2 months ago she said she was thinking of it but didn’t. I know her to well, when she gets mad she will say all sorts of things that she never means. So whenshe said that I didn’t not take it seriously. I didn’t even respond when she brought it up. I know people have said that when I make my changes I look to see if she responds. I feel like I have to take notice to see what is working and build on that. I don’t make it obvious to her nor do I say anything. Thank you for your words of wisdom. This really helps!!!
I have a question for all the vets. My daughter is throwing a small surprise birthday party for my W at the house this Friday? Do I buy extra decorations? Stay there? Leave I do t know what the right thing is to do. Please help.
Support your daughter. Be there. Buy anything she needs. Don't her be in the cross fire.
Is there an OM in the picture? Your W is clear that she wants a divorce?
If she has clearly stated she wants a divorce than I don't see a point in attending her bday party. Your W is still giving you crap about how she wishes you were truly separated, so why attend the party? Why not go GAL?
Someone fill me in if I'm missing something.
ovr, his W is saying she wants a D but is dragging her feet. Making excuses about why she isn't going with the first mediator, or her own lawyer. Etc.
As far as I know there is no OM, right Wolfman?
As far as I know there is no other man. I am torn because she is dragging her feet. She has also said that she has noticed my changes and asked why I didn’t do it earlier. I don’t know if that means she will ever come back, but she is noticing. I think I will say happy birthday but then leave. It suppose to be just a few of her friends. Had her followed again this weekend and she just hung out with her friends.
Also at mediation, when the mediator asked if she wanted a divorce or separation she said she wasn’t sure. When asked about the house, she said she needs more time to think about it she wants to buy me out or sell it. My thinking is she filed for divorce in October and had a lawyer. Then January decides she would rather use a mediator, then at mediation not sure if she wants a divorce or separation. She has had plenty of time to think what she wants to do with the house. Then when the mediator said what day next week works for you, she said let’s make it in 2 weeks. She said she needs more time to think about the house. She is all confused at least I think. Which makes me very confused.
Wolfman, if you go back and read my threads you'll see that I constantly said early on that I could see the internal struggle with my W. On one hand she wanted what she said she wanted: to get a job, get an apartment and get a D. On the other hand she wanted to keep our house, keep our family, and not disrupt not only our lives, but a lot of people peripheral to us as well (close friends, church, extended family, etc).
She told the kids we need to clean up the house. So far she hasn’t done anything but the kids and I have. My D was being disrespectful to my W. W hen starts to blame me that because I am still in the house. She said “when people separate they separate, not live in the same house.” I just ignored it, usually I would engage in that conversation.
Don't ignore it, stand up for yourself. As you said, she's treating you like a doormat. Like something she rubs the dog poop off of her shoes with. You are not a doormat, so quit acting like one. Read these threads on boundaries:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=44680&Number=1859179#Post1859179Next time she makes a comment like that then say "I am no longer going to tolerate your speaking to me that way. You can speak to me in a respectful manner or I am leaving the room and you can (cook, clean house, do laundry or whatever) yourself." Then if she keeps treating you the same then follow through with the consequence.
I know people here have told me not to leave the house, but man the verbal abuse I get every once and a while is real hard to deal with. I jus feel like crying, I am trying to be strong but his has been going on for 7 months.
At this point if you move somewhere else you are just rewarding her bad behavior. So next time she wants more out of the divorce, or wants you to watch the kids so she can be with OM, or wants anything, what do you think she'll do? Treat you like crap, because you're letting her think that is how to get results out of you.
Score all of this happened I use to be such a strong man. I didn’t take garbage from anyone, now I have become a doormat to her. All because she use to say that I never listened to her and that I had anger issues. So, I am trying to show her I am not that angry, controlling person anymore.
Boundaries are NOT about being angry or controlling. Read the threads I linked. You calmly state your boundaries, and you calmly execute the consequences when they are breached. Boundaries are you not allowing yourself to be treated poorly, that is not control, not at all.
So, I am trying to show her I am not that angry, controlling person anymore. Why is this so difficult? I wish I could just get mad and put my feelings aside and me able to move on.
Are you trying to
SHOW HER that you arent angry and controlling?
Or are you trying to not
BE angry and controlling?
I think there is an important distinction, even if it is just how you talk about yourself.
Frame your thinking around YOU. That way you can feel successful even if she isnt giving you positive feedback.
I know her to well, when she gets mad she will say all sorts of things that she never means. So whenshe said that I didn’t not take it seriously
This is very interesting to me. I wonder if she is saying some of her true feelings and you are dismissing them. I know people tend to exaggerate or hyperbolize when they are mad....but I imagine some of the undertones and concepts are probably meaningful. I wonder if she feels dismissed or ignored in these instances...
Well last night I overheard a conversation with my D and W. My daughter was very upset and talking to my W about us getting a divorce and much it bothers her. My W was so cold to her and told her she has to deal with it and that there was nothing she could do. Which is ridiculous because she is the one who wants it. It’s so sad to See how devastated my daughter is about this and my W doesn’t care about how she feels. So, I guess I am going to have to learn to accept what’s coming. I am DBing but it doesn’t seem to have an effect on her. I know that people say patience but this is tearing me up emotionally. Do the vets still think she is speaking in absolute negatives or that she really means it? I am so upset over this because she has told me she has noticed my changes but says I should have done this sooner. I don’t have proof but starting to think here is OM.
Wolfman, first and foremost, DBing isn't about having an effect on her. It is about having an effect on you! You can DB. You can climb a mountain. You can get the earth to stop spinning. None that may have any impact on your W and on your MR. The problem with LBSs is the come here looking for a magic bullet. They think DB might be it. DB is no guarantee. But what DB does guarantee is that you will be ready for the next relationship in your life, whether that is with your W or someone else.
Yes you have to accept that you may end up D'd. You have no control over that. It takes 2 to make a marriage, 1 to make a D. So no matter what you do, if she ends up wanting D that is what will happen.
Do we think she means what she says? No way to know. I can tell you that at this stage lots of WASs typically are trying to convince themselves as much as anyone else. But that doesn't matter. She says she's seen your changes but it is too late. That doesn't matter. You might be right about there being an OM. But even that doesn't matter.
What matters is that you focus on YOU. That you control what you can control, YOU. There really are only two options: Pursuit and pressure. Or DBing. The former has almost no chance of working. The latter has a chance, maybe not a great chance, but more of a chance than the other choice. But what DBing guarantees is that it saves YOU.
Lots of us here come from various results AnotherStander ended up divorced. I ended up saving my MR. But guess what, AS is in just as happy, fulfilled, and good place in his life as I am. What DBing teaches you is that you are going to be okay, no matter what. That your life won't come to an end if you get D'd. That there is life after your sitch, regardless of outcome.
So Wolfman, how is GAL coming? Why were you overhearing this conversation rather than off being busy? I know you've been doing well with your 180s. But you obviously have a lot of work to do on detachment. This shouldn't upset you, it should embolden you to double down on DBing and take your life back.
Wolfman,
maybe stop eavesdropping. It's probably not helping you, you even said it's tearing you up emotionally. So go do something that builds you up emotionally (GAL).
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best, put your focus on what you can control. You have been DB'ing for a very short time period, it's not an overnight fix.
Nobody knows what the hell she really means, probably not even her. She's in pain too so give her time and space.
Well last night I overheard a conversation with my D and W. My daughter was very upset and talking to my W about us getting a divorce and much it bothers her. My W was so cold to her and told her she has to deal with it and that there was nothing she could do. Which is ridiculous because she is the one who wants it. It’s so sad to See how devastated my daughter is about this and my W doesn’t care about how she feels.
I imagine your W cares very much. WAW's are masters of "acting as if". They may look cold and detached on the outside but inside there is a lot of turmoil and confusion and hurt. They want everyone around them to just act like everything is fine because that makes it easier on them. But then when people don't then they can get quite angry. But don't be confused by that, inside she is in pain.
I am DBing but it doesn’t seem to have an effect on her. I know that people say patience but this is tearing me up emotionally.
After a month? Where were you led to believe DB'ing would turn things around that fast? I think Michele's books and all of us here are quite clear that this is a marathon and requires a lot of patience.
Do the vets still think she is speaking in absolute negatives or that she really means it?
She means it, but we say not to believe it because she only means it at this moment in time. That can change in an hour or a day or week or month or year.
I am so upset over this because she has told me she has noticed my changes but says I should have done this sooner.
They all say it's "too little too late". That's WAS script.
I am DBing but it doesn’t seem to have an effect on her. I know that people say patience but this is tearing me up emotionally. Do the vets still think she is speaking in absolute negatives or that she really means it? I am so upset over this because she has told me she has noticed my changes but says I should have done this sooner.
Im a little confused by what you are asking.
What would you propose to do differently from what has been advised?
I assume that yes, right now she wants a divorce.
I dont understand why every time you hear her say that, it sparks this....fear...?... in you that you worry about what shes thinking and if she' means it'.
Yes. She wants a divorce. Maybe that will never change.
All you can do is worry about your side of the street and what you are doing. Id say its good that she is noticing you are becoming a different person. But that doesnt mean it is going to change her mind in the short term.
Consistency = King
Well last night I overheard a conversation with my D and W. My daughter was very upset and talking to my W about us getting a divorce and much it bothers her. My W was so cold to her and told her she has to deal with it and that there was nothing she could do. Which is ridiculous because she is the one who wants it. It’s so sad to See how devastated my daughter is about this and my W doesn’t care about how she feels. So, I guess I am going to have to learn to accept what’s coming. I am DBing but it doesn’t seem to have an effect on her. I know that people say patience but this is tearing me up emotionally. Do the vets still think she is speaking in absolute negatives or that she really means it? I am so upset over this because she has told me she has noticed my changes but says I should have done this sooner. I don’t have proof but starting to think here is OM.
This is where you man up. You are there for your daughter. get alone time with D without your wife around. You validate her feelings. She needs lots of hugs. Listen to her. Listen to understand. Ask probing open ended questions.
Here are good posts. Not sure if you have read them, but a refresher might help:
To me detachment means letting go of outcomes. I don't control the outcome so I shouldn't place my worth on the result. Doesn't mean stop caring, not trying, not having a plan, or giving up. I am solely in control of myself. If I do my best, I did all I could at the time then it has to be enough. I can learn from the experience and improve the process for future experiences.
How to practice detachment? Figure out the worst thing that could happen to you? (Spiers Doctrine - "The only hope you have is to accept the fact that you're already dead. The sooner you accept that, the sooner you'll be able to function as a soldier is supposed to function.") So the only thing that matters is are you doing the right thing. It easier to make a plan, take action and be brave when you aren't afraid of the outcome, you can't get hurt if you are already dead.
read this:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=46578&Number=1998146#Post1998146and his:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=47422&Number=2054770#Post2054770
Thank you everyone for your words of wisdom. One thing I need to let you all know. I was using another program first. I do t want to mention the name of the program or the person. But, his philosophy was different. It was all about making connections and showing how much you care even when things got bad. It stresses no separation or space, be around and make connections. Also, to call them once a day and to touch them casually at least 3 times. It also talked about improving yourself too. I started that program and did it for 3 months. I definitely improved myself but after reading about mid life crisis I realized the pursuit thing was not good and switched over to DB. So I have been improving myself for 4 months DB about a month. That’s why detachment is a little difficult for me because the other program stressed the complete opposite. But I hear what all of you are saying and am going to work on it.
Wolfman, it isn't Fort Mertel (first initials purposely swapped) is it?
Yep, I did a similar path as you, though I knew about DBing from our previous sitch in 2005.
His program is great! i love it. But it is dangerous when your spouse is in walkaway mode because as you say it involves some pursuit and pressure. However, I can honestly say that once you get past that you can incorporate his system to great affect. Touch and talk charges and date night are great tools...once your W is committing back to the MR. And his insight into things is really good related to the obstinate spouse. He can really capture their mindset.
So I am not opposed to his program, and have embraced some of it WHEN the time is right. And also I credit those suggestions to getting my W from the lukewarm early stage to the fully committed back to the MR.
However Wolfman, removing all pursuit and pressure is the right answer in most sitches. WAWs are like cats. They have to want to come to you in order to stay. If you try to make them stay they will scratch and claw to get away with every once of their strength.
I thought I would share a conversation with my W that made me laugh. We are both teachers and I teach high school and W elementary. So, I leave when they are getting up. So, she is responsible for getting the kids off to school. Well yesterday morning the kids gave her a real hard time, not listening being disrespectful. She calls me to tell me how bad they were behaving, which I don’t know what I’m suppose to do when I am at work. She is ranting and raving how bad they were. For a while I have been making the kids lunch at night and taking my S clothes out for him he is 8. Well I didn’t take out his clothes and then she had to do it. In her ranting and raving she said this is one of the reasons our marriage didn’t work, because I don’t always take out his clothes. I literally almost laughed on the phone. The other thing which she can’t detach is me from the kids. Meaning, she talks about how we all drain her and most days she just wants to run away. Well I hate to tell her even in divorce you will still have the kids and now by yourself. Unless she wants to abandon them too. Which I don’t think she will.
So if someone asks what is one of the reasons to divorce her husband because he doesn’t take out his sons clothes all the time for school. I just thought everyone on here who has been helping me could use a chuckle.
LOL Wolfman. Yeah, the WAW fog is strong with this one!
Wolf, we have all been there...if it is not the clothes it would be something else. It is the most bizarre thing you will ever experience as you see all of the good things that you have done in your MR get rewritten in your Ws head.
Yeah there are things that we all could do better and should have done better, or shouldn't have said or should have said differently in our MRs. But the the only thing that matters right now is that this is really happening and you do have to take the steps to be prepared for any outcome. I am not putting myself on a pedestal and say that I am perfect but I cannot fathom how my WW could have ever done or said most of the things that she has over the last 10 months. It is a total loss of reality including respect for her two kids.
All I know is I was lost in months 1,2,3,4,5 totally and have now only in the last few months fully embraced DB'ing. The concept seems so crazy yet so imperative. Everyone jokes if you love someone set them free....haha until you are in that situation, it is not easy but until you can get to that point you will never understand who you are.
I thought I was there many times that I had emotionally let her go, she would leave then I would take her back, leave then I would take her back, wash rinse repeat. It wasn't until she left and I said why, why am I doing this, no I don't want you back this is over....not to get a reaction out of her but because I was better than that, my kids do not deserve this either. Let's get this over with and move on so that we can live the lives that we want separately.
It wasn't until that point that she was shaken so bad that maybe she will not leave again.
I'm not sure exactly where your W is right now and if any changes you make will make a difference with her but you will see it have effects on you. The way you look, the things you do for you and your kids, your outlook on life. Make the changes that make you happy and your kids happy.
It's hard to shake them when they get like this and there is no guarantee but DB'ing is the only thing that has saved me. My MR.....still not sure where that is...but my kids...and me...we're good right now, that's all I need.
She calls me to tell me how bad they were behaving, which I don’t know what I’m suppose to do when I am at work.
Classic guy comment. "How am I supposed to fix this when I'm somewhere else." The answer is this- SHE DOESN'T WANT YOU TO FIX IT. Us guys, we're all classic fixers. Show us a loose screw and we're immediately looking around for a screwdriver. Tell us your problem and before you can even finish we're formulating a solution to spit back at you. Women don't want us to fix all their problems, 99% of the time they are just venting and want someone to LISTEN and VALIDATE. So you say something like "oh wow, that sounds very frustrating, is that how you feel?" She says "yes I'm so frustrated I want to scream!" You say "That does sound very frustrating! I'm sorry you're going through that, but thank you for getting them ready each morning." Later she'll be talking to her friend and say "I don't know what's happened to him, suddenly he's LISTENING to me and COMMUNICATING with me." That's the effect listening and validating has.
In her ranting and raving she said this is one of the reasons our marriage didn’t work, because I don’t always take out his clothes. I literally almost laughed on the phone.
Your response- "I am sorry, I imagine that is a big deal when you're already frustrated over trying to get them ready. I will try and remember to always have the clothes out before I leave." Her point is this- she doesn't feel you were a member of a team with her. Sometimes you got the clothes out, sometimes you didn't. And when you didn't, guess whose responsibility it became? Your wife's. Is that fair to her you think? You might see it as a small thing, but it could very well be an indication of a much larger issue of you constantly choosing when you do and do not perform your marriage responsibilities and leaving her to pick up the slack when you don't. Right?
Meaning, she talks about how we all drain her and most days she just wants to run away. Well I hate to tell her even in divorce you will still have the kids and now by yourself.
Once again you are dismissing her feelings. Here's a validation test for you, how SHOULD you respond if she says the above again? Write out the exact quote of what you think you should say to her.
AS thank you for your words of wisdom. I did t have time to write out the whole dialogue but I was validating her statements. Not as good as you put it. I am definitely learning a lot about validating. You are right; the first thing I want to do is fix the problem. But I am working on validating. As far as a response to that statement, “I know the kids and I can be exhausting and I’m sorry you are so tired. I will take the kids later today to give you some free time to relax.”
How is that? AS I appreciate how you show me how to answer, it’s definitely helping me. That is definitely something that she wants, she just wants to be heard and understood. Something I definitely got wrong in the marriage.
I will try and remember to always have the clothes out before I leave."
Is an 8 year old capable of doing this himself with some guidance and boundaries the night before?
I took a parenting class "Parenting with love and logic". Three of the main points I took away:
If the child is capable of doing something, the child should be doing it, not the parent.
If the child doesn't do it, there are natural consequences to their choices and actions.
The cost of bad choices increase as the child gets older.
Most of you are dealing with grown up children (Spouses) that did not suffer natural consequences early in life because the parents "rescued" them from the natural consequences of their actions.
I will try and remember to always have the clothes out before I leave."
I would replace:
H"I believe it is time for S to start getting his own clothes ready THE NIGHT BEFORE. I will help him do this to reduce the stress in the morning."
“I know the kids and I can be exhausting and I’m sorry you are so tired. I will take the kids later today to give you some free time to relax.”
That's a good, loving response, but you're still trying to "fix" things (I'll take the kids later). The focus should be on seeking out her feelings and validating them. So here is how the convo might go:
Her: You and the kids drain me, most days I just want to run away.
You: That sounds very difficult, how does that make you feel?
Her: I'm very angry and frustrated and just exhausted.
You: You do seem very angry and frustrated. What do you think is happening that's making you feel that way?
Her: (probably a long list of stuff)
You: I can see how those things would make you feel angry and frustrated, I am sorry you are having a down day.
Now as a fixer (like me and most every other guy here) you are reading that and probably thinking "no way that will work, I need to offer her solutions" but it DOES work. When I started validating my ex and daughters, it just felt so touchy-feely and like I was trying to be their counselor or something. But they responded very positively, telling me how much better at "communicating" I was even though I didn't feel like I was communicating anything TO them at all! But that's what this is all about is giving them what they need and not what we think they need. They need to feel heard, understood, sympathized with. Compare that to what most of us would say pre-BD:
Her: You and the kids drain me, most days I just want to run away.
You: Seriously? I left the house at 6 am and worked my butt off all day and you're whining because of having to get S's clothes out? Are you kidding me?
Her: Do you ever listen to anything I say?
You: Oh I hear you loud and clear, excuse me for not dropping everything to get a shirt and pair of pants out! Oh how you must have suffered having to spend 5 seconds doing that!!
Etc. etc. etc. This is exactly why most WAS's seek out an OM, because that creepy, low-life OM knows how to validate and their husband only knows how to be an ass.
That is definitely something that she wants, she just wants to be heard and understood. Something I definitely got wrong in the marriage.
Most of us did. But it can be fixed, and fixing it will have a very positive impact on your relationships!
Funny as soon as I rather the descriptors of the other program I knew it was Mort Fertel
Her: You and the kids drain me, most days I just want to run away.
You: That sounds very difficult, how does that make you feel?
Her: I'm very angry and frustrated and just exhausted.
You: You do seem very angry and frustrated. What do you think is happening that's making you feel that way?
Her: (probably a long list of stuff)
You: I can see how those things would make you feel angry and frustrated, I am sorry you are having a down day.
This is how two woman communicate. This how woman want their man to communicate.
Next time you are at Starbucks, sit down behind two woman talking and just listen.
Not that I don't mind tapping into the female psyche as it is always intrigued me because I've always wanted to improve my communication skills. But it's almost as if women are asking men of the 21st century to stop acting like men and more like women? When it comes to emotional intelligence there is a good reason why both men and women both carry feminine and masculine frames. When the opposite frame dominates the existing person they don't exude their natural personality and sexuality. Ever notice of effeminate guys are with bossy women who manipulate and control them?
Myself I fall right in the middle I have a nice balance between the two, which I'm sure has made me passive aggressive on occasion?
Quick question. Yesterday during the day my wife went out, did not tell me where she was going. I had plans to go out in the evening. She was not sure she would be home in time when I had to leave, so I got a babysitter. I was meeting up with friends at a restaurant. It just so happens as I am driving through town where there are a lot of bars and restaurants, she sees me driving and then calls me, where I was and I said the town and she said funny I am here too. She said what are you following me? I told her no I am meeting friends for dinner like I said. But she didn’t believe me. When I finally parked I text her if she wanted she could come and have a drink and I told her which place. Of course she said no.
I know today she is going to probably ask questions or accuse me of following. How do I handle this? It is a very popular town.
W:"H bla bla bla following me bla bla bla"
H:"I answered that question yesterday. Do you remember my answer?"
or
W:"H bla bla bla following me bla bla bla"
H"Why do you think I would be following you?"
W"Bla bla bla"
H:"Obviously you don't remember our conversation last week"
W:"What convo what are you talking about.???"
H"I told you I was meeting freinds downtown."
or
W:"H bla bla bla following me bla bla bla"
H sarcasm "Yes, I have nothing better to do with my time than follow you around." and then walk away. (see if she follows you"
or
"Yes, I followed you all day. Would you care to explain everything?"
or "We already discussed that. Do I have anything to be concerned about?"
Meaning, she talks about how we all drain her and most days she just wants to run away.
Does she teach in a public school? What grade level?
How well does she maintain her classroom?
Does she complain about all the stress that's put on her (as the teacher) and that she doesn't have enough time to "teach"?
I could ask several questions related to her job, but to save time I'll just say I think she sounds like a woman who is stressed out. The quote above jumped out to me, b/c I can see her grouping you and the kids......with her classroom kids. You've all become like one big problem. She feels drained b/c her stress at work affects her home life. She is in a bad mood every Monday, b/c she has to go back to deal with her class. She has to deal with parents. She has to deal with the Principal.......and the ton of paperwork. She wanted to wait until the week after her observation was completely over, before returning to mediation. That makes me think she doesn't feel on top of things at work. How much does she talk about it? How much do you listen?
You've described how she doesn't pick up after herself at home. Is that out of laziness, carelessness, fatigue, or a lack of pride? I'm wondering if she has always struggled due to a lack of organizational skills. Someone who has great organizational skills has to keep things picked up and put away. Does her classroom look like her house?
I only point this out to support the idea that the root of the problem may not be an unhappy MR, but an unhappy profession. It's one thing to love to teach, but as you well know......it's all the other stuff that can get you down.
My STBXW is the same exact way. A teacher and a behavioral specialist, with all the stress at work, and at home with a one year old, she wants to run away too. She said she should have switched careers six years ago, and seperated from me over a year ago. She wants to start a fresh life being a health coach consultant from home, live either in an apartment now, or a one acre plot, and grow saffron and lavender, and saffron. (She kills cactus) and "follow her heart" even though she requires gastric bypass (which she is also quitting for the 6th time) along with her nutrition plans, and 5th yoga program, is a slob around the home, but loves to criticize me on my parenting skills. But I say.... "Follow your feelings and your heart" and "live your dreams" Nothing wrong with that, but it takes personal commitment and discipline. Only time will tell.. But I wish her well. Wolfman... Follow your own path, I know its hard but really try to take the focus off of the WAW/WW. And rightfully put it back on yourself. Your partners choices, actions, and lack of moral principles and discretion are out of your control. Focus on what you can control. I know that there are two sides to every story I'm sure there's a lot of these women have legitimate reasons, that are justified in their own minds for their unhappiness, I'm sure some of them are legitimate and some of them aren't to you. but you have to operate from your principles and beliefs, and put your emotions aside because they will mislead you
Sandi2 I'm going to chime in here on the organizational skills. Someone can have amazing administrative organizational skills, and poor physical administrative skills, and vice versa. Plus when related to to work,
(more consequence) and home personal diaciplinr can be two totally different animals. This is coming from two people that are both fundamentally flawed in this area (At least one of us is willing to admit it.)
Sandi,
She does teach in public school. She teaches 5th graders and does complain a lot about her job. From what she has told me about her job she has a ton of paperwork and that her desk is a mess just like our home. She is stressed from her job. She always talk about her job, so yes is the past there were times I would make a face because that is all she would want to talk about. Looking back, that was a mistake on my part. I needed to listen to her all the time, instead of sometimes. I feel she does lump everything together and all her problems just get directed at me.
The validation is helping me. Yesterday she was in a bad mood and was on the attack. She expressed how angry she was all the time. So I asked her to explain what makes her so mad. She said why couldn’t I have changed a while ago, she wanted me to be like this a long time ago. And she doesn’t believe that my changes are real. She said no one changes lol me that. I said I understand your concerns but I told her I could truly understand if this was only for a week or a month but it’s been months I have been doing theses things (I know I got away from validation for a second). She says it shouldn’t have gotten to this point for me to make these changes. I agreed with her and apologized for not seeing my faults. One of the things that is driving her nuts, in the past when she would yell and scream I would yell back, now I stay calm validate and give her boundaries. When she yells, in a calm voice I ask her please don’t speak to me that way, in front of the kids I ask her to not yell in front of the kids. She tries to push my buttons and there are no buttons to push anymore.
But it's almost as if women are asking men of the 21st century to stop acting like men and more like women? When it comes to emotional intelligence there is a good reason why both men and women both carry feminine and masculine frames. When the opposite frame dominates the existing person they don't exude their natural personality and sexuality. Ever notice of effeminate guys are with bossy women who manipulate and control them?
Myself I fall right in the middle I have a nice balance between the two, which I'm sure has made me passive aggressive on occasion?
If you are implying that listening and validating is wimpy or girly then you completely misunderstand it. It is simply communicating to her in HER language instead of YOURS. As a result, she will think you are more masculine and mature because you "understand" her and "know what a woman needs". The problem with most guys is that they are so busy acting like spoiled frat boys around their spouses that they start to think that is normal male behavior and it is not.
Quick question. Yesterday during the day my wife went out, did not tell me where she was going. I had plans to go out in the evening. She was not sure she would be home in time when I had to leave, so I got a babysitter. I was meeting up with friends at a restaurant. It just so happens as I am driving through town where there are a lot of bars and restaurants, she sees me driving and then calls me, where I was and I said the town and she said funny I am here too. She said what are you following me? I told her no I am meeting friends for dinner like I said. But she didn’t believe me. When I finally parked I text her if she wanted she could come and have a drink and I told her which place. Of course she said no.
I know today she is going to probably ask questions or accuse me of following. How do I handle this? It is a very popular town.
She fired you as H, why are you suddenly concerned about what her perception is of your GAL activities. If she's asking you 20 questions then GOOD, because you WANT to be mysterious to her. Do not offer up any info if she doesn't ask. And if she does ask, just be brief in your replies. "Where did you go?" "I met some friends for dinner." "A FEMALE friend?" "No, it was a mix of people." "Who were they?" "You don't know them, just some friends from XYZ." Anyway, you get the point. Be honest but don't be overly open with your answers.
Yesterday she was in a bad mood and was on the attack. She expressed how angry she was all the time. So I asked her to explain what makes her so mad.
Great job of validating instead of dismissing her feelings!
She said why couldn’t I have changed a while ago, she wanted me to be like this a long time ago. And she doesn’t believe that my changes are real.
Yes she still believes it's "too little too late". This is why you have to stock to these changes for a long period of time, because right now she doesn't believe them.
I said I understand your concerns but I told her I could truly understand if this was only for a week or a month but it’s been months I have been doing theses things (I know I got away from validation for a second).
I'm glad you recognized that because that's exactly what I was going to say. When she says things like this just keep up the validation. "I hear you saying you are frustrated because I didn't change sooner, that must have been difficult for you to go through."
One of the things that is driving her nuts, in the past when she would yell and scream I would yell back, now I stay calm validate and give her boundaries. When she yells, in a calm voice I ask her please don’t speak to me that way, in front of the kids I ask her to not yell in front of the kids. She tries to push my buttons and there are no buttons to push anymore.
Good, not sure why that would drive her nuts but stick with it.
My best guess why it’s driving her nuts. Since she doesn’t believe the changes are real she is expecting the old wolfman to show himself. But this is a whole new wolfman and it’s tugging on her conscious that she is divorcing the wolfman she always wanted. She is looking for reasons to justify her actions and I am not giving it to her. Again, this is just a guess.
My best guess why it’s driving her nuts. Since she doesn’t believe the changes are real she is expecting the old wolfman to show himself. But this is a whole new wolfman and it’s tugging on her conscious that she is divorcing the wolfman she always wanted. She is looking for reasons to justify her actions and I am not giving it to her. Again, this is just a guess.
First, a little curiosity on her part about your GAL is a very good thing. Almost all WASs/WSs will eventually accuse you of seeing someone else. And they do that because either they still care, or because they want you to give them an excuse to continue on their path.
Also, your last post is dead on. My WW was always doing things to "test" me. To see if my changes were real or fake. I told the story about one of my 180s was to loosen control of spending. I had been doing all of the grocery shopping going back several years. So I told her, "I need you to take over the grocery shopping." I gave her no parameters. I didn't try to control it. I didn't even give her a limit.
She went and spent a little over $300. (I typically was spending $100-120 every week and a half or 2 weeks), I helped her carry them in, and put them away. And I remained upbeat and non-plussed by the overspending. Two interesting things:
1) She said: "I spent too much!" I didn't say anything." She then looked at me and said: "$500". I said, "Oh ok." Smiling. She then said, "No just kidding, $325."
2) She then said as we were putting things away; "Yeah, I probably overspent." I said: "Nah, most of what you got will eventually get consumed. Its not like you bought a bunch of perishables that will go bad quickly." (things like tuna fish, she spent probably like $25 on packaged tuna.) She said: "That's exactly what I thought too!"
The point is to 180 on how you would normally react, and cement your changes. It was easy for me once I framed everything as being that I loved her more than anything else not including God (1st) and my daughter (just as much).
Where I live, the teachers are flooded with paperwork required by the State Department. It has become insane! Your W sounds as if she may have "burn out". Sometimes taking off for one year does a lot of good. Even if she worked at something in a totally different atmosphere .........the change just might save your M.
IMHO, her yelling was her way of trying to be heard over other racket. IDK, if she has to raise her voice to be heard over a classroom of chatter, chairs moving, books dropping, students moving around, etc.......but it's possible, right? So again, when she goes home, she is seeing a continuation of her work day where she has to yell to be heard. You can't change things at school, but what can you change at home?
I would work up a "Home Blessing" schedule, where you and the two kids spend ten minutes in each room of the house/chores. Divide the house into zones with each person assigned to a zone each week. Make it fun. Be a team or be competitive to see who can do the best job in ten minutes. Set the time clock with a loud buzzer and everyone stops when the buzzer sounds. (You may have to assign more than just one zone, IDK). Let the kids turn on their music while they work. Do it as fast as possible. Throw away as much trash and clutter as possible (but don't throw away any of mom's papers & stuff) There are websites that helps people who struggle with messy houses. They say to make it fun, and don't think of it as work......but rather it's
blessing your home when you clean it. Make it a game with the kids. Brag on their speed and good work. Once they see how much can be done in just ten minutes a day, hopefully, you can expand to decluttering and other exciting activities.
This is just a suggestion. Talk to your kids and ask if they will join you in an experiment. You might want to tell them their mom has had a lot of stress at work, so this experiment will be for the three of you, while mom prepares for observation (or whatever). Set up a couple of rules....like, no fussing or complaining about having to clean up someone else's mess, or why isn't mom helping. No texting friends, no social media, etc; until their zones are cleaned. If it's successful in keeping the house in order, then I think it will make a big difference in everyone's mood.....especially yours.
Greet your W when you see her after work, and tell her goodbye in the mornings. Ask her if she needs you to do anything. When she comes home, (when you feel is the best time) ask your W about her day, and show true interest by looking at her when she talks.......I think it will allow her to vent her frustration. Don't tell her what she needs to do. Don't suggest squat! She just wants you to
hear what she is saying and validate her. Don't get angry at whoever or whatever is causes her stress. She just wants her H to validate her. I really believe this could turn things around in a big way. And, if she thinks it's just a ploy to keep her from divorcing you.......then that's when you can tell her how it's come to your attention that you were focusing on the less important things instead of what was important to her. Maybe apologize for not giving her emotional support.
If she says something about you "making" the kids clean up, then tell her you want to figure out how to do team work with them. If the house chores can get done in just a few minutes, that would be quite an accomplishment, right? I don't think she would fuss about it, but the
daughter might. Yeah, she might try to play daddy and mom against each other....but that's another story.
I remember an elementary teacher who was a single mom. She appeared to be the epitome of a highly organized person, always appeared to be in control, was nicely dressed, and conducted herself calmly. IDK what her house looked like, but she did admit that there was a rule everyone had to follow. When she arrived home, she went into her bedroom, shut the door, and
nobody disturbed her for one hour.......including phone calls. After one hour, she would come out of her room and was ready to handle what was needed at home. She said some people might think it was selfish, but 60 minutes a day, gave her space, peace. and alone time to regroup. I don't think that's asking for too much for someone who deals with 5th graders in a small space for five days a week. She could take a bubble bath, go for a quite walk alone, dig in her flower bed........or just stretch out listen to NOTHING.
AnotherStander. I'm not implying that all that validating is wimpy. It's a communication skill that really needs to be hones and address I'm grateful for Wonka putting up the cheat sheet on here as well as I'm reading. I Hear You by Michael Sorensen. I'm doing my best to put it into practice empathetically trying to 180 on Old behaviors and breaking old habits. The frat boy mentality is a severe problem in our culture today and I will agree with you on that.
The point that I was trying to illustrate however is why is it that 60 years ago, men acted like men and women acted like women. Both clearly using their own style of language women understood men and men understood women without too much difficulty. Then in the eighties the culture shifted and women ask men to be more sensitive, ironically this is what turns them off now and now women have developed somewhat of a masculine frame in our culture and a lot of the men have developed in the effeminate frame. Neither one feels natural. A typical wife working wife of today will complain that she's so stressed out between the kids the house the duties and the workforce, putting them into a masculine frame. the man today is even more unavailable because he's juggling just as much as well in some circumstances and he's even more distance, with all the electronic distractions of today TV media Sports etcetera, and people wonder why marriages fail today. I really believe that this is a divide-and-conquer method implemented by pop culture and media. women love reading romance novels and building up fantasies inside their minds of how things quote-unquote should be, as well as paying attention to all of the media that revolves around this with Desperate Housewives and The Bachelor excetera excetera. Men have been taken over by the fantasy of porn, sports, divisive politics, and a legal system stacked in the woman's favor deliberately. I'm not saying a woman shouldn't follow her dreams in the workforce and be equally paid in contrast to a man, I'm not saying that women should be dutiful Housewives and be barefoot and pregnant, that is just wrong and sexist. What I am saying is that in America 60 years ago when the nuclear family was able to live off of one paycheck and the husband was a breadwinner and the wife was the housewife it worked a lot better and there's a lot more morals and much better dynamics of the nuclear family. This is what is missing today by Design. Feminism has sold women rubbish and a bad bill of goods as well as some women's empowerment although well-meaning, too many women today apparently have the mindset that they are the prize they are entitled and that they don't need a man. There are a lot of undertones of misandry with this
Sandi.
I know she is probably burned out. i told her she should take off one year or switch careers or go to another district. But she refused all of it. Mostly because with our 2 incomes we live anger comfortable life, we go on multiple vacations a year, go out to dinner all the time, put the kids in various activities, etc. she does not want to give all of that up. She said if she took off for one year then we wouldn’t be able to go on vacation. I told her it would just be for one year. She said she would rather work and suffer and still go on vacation. Unfortunately, my W is very competitive and where we live people are constantly going on vacation and she compares our lives to everyone else. That always drove me nuts because we did so many great things but it never seemed like it was enough for her. Honestly, tell if this happened to anyone else but Facebook is a huge problem. All she does is go on there and say, “see look what so and so did, and look these people did that, and this person is going here.” She felt the need to constantly keep up or one up. She never felt satisfied. That’s why she continues to work.
It’s just sad that my W believes that divorce will be better for everyone. Especially when she has recognized the changes but doesn’t want to give it a shot.
Question: One of her complaints about the marriage was that I didn’t text her all the time, like during the day to say hi or how she was doing. I did it maybe once a week but she wanted it all the time. I know I’m not suppose to pursue but should I text her during the day to ask how her day is or just to say hi? Thanks everyone you have really been helping me!!!!!
Question: One of her complaints about the marriage was that I didn’t text her all the time, like during the day to say hi or how she was doing. I did it maybe once a week but she wanted it all the time. I know I’m not suppose to pursue but should I text her during the day to ask how her day is or just to say hi?
No that would be pursuit. Did she ever bring that up to you prior to asking for a D? It's just BS script to justify her reasons. Asking for a D because you didn't text 'hi'. Crazy right?
Question: One of her complaints about the marriage was that I didn’t text her all the time, like during the day to say hi or how she was doing. I did it maybe once a week but she wanted it all the time. I know I’m not suppose to pursue but should I text her during the day to ask how her day is or just to say hi? Thanks everyone you have really been helping me!!!!!
WM, this is a very common question by the LBS. "WAS said I didn't do X...Y....Z.....during the marriage. Should I start doing X, Y, and Z?"
You see Wolfman, relationships are like cars. They need routine maintenance. With a car if you change the oil regularly, swap out the filters, rotate the tires, get the front-end aligned, flush the coolant, etc....the car will continue to run in tip-top shape. If you don't do the routine maintenance, it will break down. Once your car breaks down, you can do all the routine maintenance and it will have no effect on the breakdown. If the engine has thrown a rod, changing the oil will be superfluous at that point.
Your W has expressed that you didn't do routine maintenance (texting all the time, kissing when you left the house, etc). But you are in a breakdown mode now. Routine maintenance will do no good. And unlike a car, trying to do "routine maintenance" to a broken relationship will only make things worse!
What I would suggest, is to use a talk charge. Once a day find something amusing, interesting or both, that takes less than a minute to share. Call her at a random time during the day, and just share it. Here is your script:
"Hey, just thought I'd call to share with you this funny story I heard today. -insert short funny story-. Just thought you'd find that amusing. Talk to you later. Bye."
You can even leave it on VM if you want. But try doing something like that once a day. Use your judgement. Sometimes sitches are such that once a day would be too much. So do it every other day, or once every 3 days. One of the things that this does is it makes takes them by surprise. She is so used to you being mopey and depressed, that when you call just to share something fun and upbeat, she'll hang up the phone going "what was that?!" Again, don't over do it. In my sitch I did it once a day while I was away at work. At first I think she thought "Oh brother, what does he want?" But after a couple of week she came to expect it, and I believe it started to help us reconnect. And then a strange thing happened, she started doing the same thing back!
One rule: DO not throw in logistically talk in these. Do not discuss who is picking up the kids, or what we are having for dinner. Keep it light. Keep it fun. Keep it short. And then end it. "Just thought I'd share that. But I have to run."
Steve, I got away from talk charges because I thought that was pursuit, but I think for my wife once and a while will help. Right now I don’t think everyday will be good. I will implement them again.
LH19, when does the script change to her saying, I love you, again? I’m just kidding I know I have a ways to go if ever again.
Please start a new thread and link your two threads together. Thanks!