I'm David and married to my wife for over 18 years. I love her with all my heart, I always have. I admit I should have been a better husband, but all I knew about what dads do is work their tails off to provide for the family.
So here it goes...about 7 months ago my wife told me that she no longer loves me. She gave a long laundry list of things that I did wrong, from not helping to set up the Christmas tree one year to walking too fast to not staying home when she was sick and take care of the kids (I have emails to my bosses stating otherwise), and many more things. One of the core issues she raised was that I didn't do anything when my son came out with his gender identity issue. My wife dove right into that issue as she always does with everything and she got in touch with experts and therapists and within days had appointments lined up. I had to wrap my mind around things first while she was miles ahead and there was nothing I could disagree with the path she took. She blamed me for leaving her alone, that she felt like a single parent. She accused me of not caring about our two sons, that I am a horrible dad. That I never do any chores around the house and that sex was boring and a bunch of other things.
I was floored and that announcement threw me off the tracks. Only very few weeks later she told me that she has a relationship with someone she met on Facebook. He lives in India, is about half her age, and she went on and on that she loves him and misses him and wants to be with him. She wants a divorce and move to India. I crashed and was totally destroyed. At one point I could not deal with it anymore and went to HR at work. They set me up with a few free therapy sessions. My wife joined me on two, but it really didn't matter. I eventually had to stop therapy because with an out of network provider I could not afford it.
In the months after that I cried a lot. I could not sleep. At work I would doze off in meetings. We would fight often and I got angry when she video chatted with her boyfriend right in front of me. Shen then got a visa and visited him for two weeks. I know they at least kissed, but I don't know if it went any further. She took quite a lot of money with her, always telling me that India is so cheap and that she will get all the great deals. I messaged her and told her that I miss her, but she got very upset about it and told me that she does not need my commentary and wants to enjoy herself. So for the first week we did not communicate and she barely contacted our sons. Then out of a sudden she got all friendly again and asked about how I'm doing....and yea, she ran out of money. I was livid and told her that I won't send money, that her boyfriend should take care of her if he is so much better than me. It went like that for a few hours until I gave in and sent her some more money. A few days later she begged me to book her a hotel because she would otherwise end up on the street. I got her a hotel near the airport. And on the day she was supposed to fly back she missed the flight because she could not be bothered to read the time on the ticket. So I got her another ticket so that she can come back home.
After that things were rough. I would cry a lot, especially when I heard her chatting with her bf. She would then accuse me of wanting to sabotage her relationship. It took me around 3 months to get some stability back into myself. Since then I took all the things she complained about to heart. I cook, I clean, I spend more time with the kids, work is no longer a priority, I get her things she likes, I try to spend a lot of quality time with her, and back her up as much as I can. Yet, she still is with that guy from India, although it is only long distance. She used to lock herself into the bathroom, turn the fan on, and talk to him. Since a few weeks she does not do that anymore, at least not when I am at home. The last time I got into a fight with her about her cheating was when her bf publicly ridiculed me on FB. I know it is just FB and he is obviously immature and reckless. My wife said that he was also drunk, something that seems to happen often and that is when he gets mean and abusive.
My wife drinks a lot as well. First it was beer and then changed to hard liquor. I got really concerned and was looking for help from al anon. My kids talked to her and she at least stopped drinking the hard stuff. At one point I organized for her to get into an outpatient program, but a day before we were supposed to go to the first interview she asked me to cancel.
She eventually went to her doctor and asked for antidepressants. We went through a lot of trouble to finally find a therapist for her, so she goes there regularly. Since then things got much better. She does things around the house, we spend really nice Sunday afternoons, she started cooking again, goes to the store, brings my youngest son to dance class (most of the time), and for weeks has not mentioned her bf to me, although I am sure that they still communicate. She wrote a really good resume and applied for jobs. She did not work for 16 years because she homeschooled our sons with excellent success (oldest graduated high school with 16). Now she is down because so far nobody called back to at least offer her an interview.
The topic of divorce did not surface for a few weeks, but I still think she wants to leave me. I keep doing all the things I do, all the bathroom cleaning and litter box shoveling and cook Sunday dinner every week. I help her in any which way I can although I get absolutely nothing in return. She means so much to me. I love her with all my heart. I don't want a divorce....and that is what brought me here. I'm afraid of losing her and don't know what else to do.
I joined a club where we play board games once a week. I also restarted therapy for myself with a different provider. But there isn't a day where I do not cry. I love my wife and I miss the person she used to be.
Sorry for the long post. I'm on the edge for months now and I don't know what else I can do to save our marriage. Is there any help?
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Your son having gender identity issues is a big deal. Not everyone processes that the same way. You aren't obligated to do things her way all the time. You have a heart and brain of your own.
If your W traveled across the globe to see this man, I'm sure it got physical. She sounds like she is in full crisis mode, not that there's anything you can say to snap her out of it. Never tolerate her flaunting the OM (other man) in your face. Do not let that happen. Tell her to get out if she's going to do that. I'm sure if you told a random person that your W is in an affair with someone half her age on the other side of the planet, they'd say she's lost her marbles. And they'd be right.
If your W is taking a lot of money to travel and do wayward wife (WW) stuff, you probably need to separate your finances from hers. You basically financed her little trip to see the OM. I can't believe you did that...I'm very sorry. You must be very upset. You don't need to discuss OM with your W ever again. I would stop all conversations about her and him.
You need to pull a 180 and stop all pursuit. Seriously, just back off, do your thing, and leave her alone. This means stop trying to spend time with her and stop trying to buy her things and do nice things. She doesn't want you or these acts.
Your W is very, very disrespectful. And unfortunately you've allowed it to happen. You need to 180 here. This will be hard. She is used to manipulating you and winning.
Read the detachment link and get to work on detaching. You are 7 months out from BD (bomb drop) and you should start letting her go. You want it to be where you are not emotionally hung up on what she says and does and where you can think logically and act from your values instead of financing her affair flight and hotels.
Anyways, keep posting and let us know what's going on. We've all been in your shoes in one way or another and we are all hear to help.
Dave,
Sorry to hear of your sitch. I can empathize with you. The good in the bad is that we all can empathize with you here. You are in the right place. Please start to take the time to read through Cadet's links.
Read Sandi's Rules. Also read her threads on WW, the wayward wife.
The faster you're able to familiarize yourself with the core information here, the faster you will be able to save yourself and change your mindset.
What your W is doing is not your fault. Don't beat yourself up over the choices she's making while being your W.
No one is perfect Dave. I also have a laundry list of things I didn't do, didn't do right, or did too much of. Some of the valid things you can identify with, you can do your 180s on, but you do them for you, not for her. Did you get the Divorce Remedy book? If so, spend some time reading that and DO NOT show your wife anything about that book or this site. This is for you only. Delete your browser history after using the pc or wipe your history off any devices you use for this.
Please take some time to read Sandi's posts on the WW. It will help you to get a better understanding. Once you begin this process, you can start to realize this is a journey to save yourself first and foremost. If this can save your marriage, then so be it.
Wife gone 2 weeks, they only kissed? Your sex life is boring? She got a visa to leave the country, I highly doubt she will be only kissing. I say this not to be mean, but to let you know we see what you are saying. You will need to wake up from the denial. Read my first posts and see what kind of comments I got about being in denial. I quickly got affirmation and knew I wasn't going crazy.
There is a lot of information here and you just started so familiarize yourself with the language and the links. Once you get settled in, then you will -need- to work on YOU, getting your manhood back. You're going to want to be the man your wife wants to be with and not the man who will do anything to appease his wayward wife. It's hard to hear of your wife having a BF and then the whole FB incident, and you're saying it's only FB.
I know you love your W, but can I ask, do you love yourself more than your W? When I read this I see a man who will do anything for his W even when she is disrespecting him, putting her selfish wants ahead of you. I feel for you Dave, really sorry to hear she was/is treating you that way.
There is help. There is tremendous help for you here. Don't get discouraged if at first you don't find the quick fix or magic bullet to save the marriage. This is your journey.
The advice I can offer is the faster you learn to let go, the better your mental and emotional state. It will take a while, but the faster you begin, the sooner the better.
Don't use anything mentioned here and share them with your W. This is your journey now for you.
She blamed me for leaving her alone, that she felt like a single parent. She accused me of not caring about our two sons, that I am a horrible dad. That I never do any chores around the house and that sex was boring and a bunch of other things.
Dave, have you read DR yet? Do that right away. The above is classic, typical "rewriting of history". Your wife is wayward and once they go wayward they look for any excuses they can to justify their new "girls gone wild" life. Rewriting history to make you sound like the worst H ever is an easy way to do that.
Shen then got a visa and visited him for two weeks. I know they at least kissed, but I don't know if it went any further. She took quite a lot of money with her, always telling me that India is so cheap and that she will get all the great deals.
YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!! Wow, she is really off the rails.
I messaged her and told her that I miss her, but she got very upset about it and told me that she does not need my commentary and wants to enjoy herself.
Do not tell her you miss her. This should have been your queue to go dark on her.
yea, she ran out of money. I was livid and told her that I won't send money, that her boyfriend should take care of her if he is so much better than me.
THAT was a perfect response!!
It went like that for a few hours until I gave in and sent her some more money. A few days later she begged me to book her a hotel because she would otherwise end up on the street. I got her a hotel near the airport. And on the day she was supposed to fly back she missed the flight because she could not be bothered to read the time on the ticket. So I got her another ticket so that she can come back home.
But man oh man you really blew it there. This woman is disrespecting you, literally wiping her feet on you like a doormat while she blatantly engages in an affair. Your coddling treatment of her is only making things WORSE, because every time you help her she respects you even less! Right now she is looking at you like the most pathetic excuse for a man she's ever seen, because what real man would give a woman money and constantly rescue her from her idiotic mistakes while she is actively engaging in an overt affair? So STOP. To earn her respect back you've got to quit putting up with her BS. Quit rescuing her, quit sitting there while she FT's this loser in India, quit being chummy with her. No ILY, no I miss you, no nothing.
By the way I am not attacking your masculinity, I am just trying to describe how she sees you right now. I understand you are hurting and miserable and trying desperately to patch things back up and doing what you feel is best. But what your brain is telling you to do is not the way to handle things. DBing is counter-intuitive, it's doing the opposite of what your brain tells you do to (beg, plead, reason, negotiate, bribe, etc.)
After that things were rough. I would cry a lot, especially when I heard her chatting with her bf.
First don't show emotion in front of her anymore. Cry in your car, or the bathroom or whatever. But not in front of her. Second, DO NOT put up with her chatting with her BF in front of you. Tell her to take it out of your house, you're not going to put up with it. If she refuses and does it in front of you then get angry and read her the riot act while she is FT'ing him. Put a stop to that crap NOW.
Since then I took all the things she complained about to heart.
You can't placate a wayward wife!
I cook, I clean, I spend more time with the kids, work is no longer a priority, I get her things she likes, I try to spend a lot of quality time with her, and back her up as much as I can.
Spending more time with the kids is the ONLY thing there that you should be doing. The other stuff will have zero impact on her, and in fact just makes you look weak to her.
Yet, she still is with that guy from India, although it is only long distance.
And until that stops, you should not lift a finger for her.
Thank you all for the quick replies. A lot to digest. I will look at the resources about the "wayward wife" first. Maybe then I understand why being mean and unsupportive to her will potentially accomplish. I heard that advice before, but it feels to me as if I give up on her, push her away when I want the opposite. It's all just so damn hard.
As far as money goes....she could have grabbed more, but didn't. She has her own CC card and accumulated quite a good amount on it, but I told her that I am not paying for anything that wasn't health care related or for kids activities. That is one motivation why she wants to find a full time job so that she can pay off what I can only guess is quite a bit. We still have a joined account and I already asked that the only way for her to lose access is by her to sign papers for it. She will then bring up the same argument as before that half of everything is hers. I told her that it is not hers or mine, but ours. Same with the house.
Along the way I made mistakes, I should have far less accommodating especially with her trip. I know better now. Back then I was in total shock...and none of this ever came up in my mind, so I did what I thought was right at the moment.
I will talk to my therapist about the most effective way to disassociate from her...which is difficult when she still lives in the same house. Why can't there be a genie in the bottle that tells her she's on the wrong track? I guess life is never easy.
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
You dont have to be mean. You detach for your emotional health. Your WW is about as disrespectful as mine. I go nearly full no contact with her. This doesnt mean I am mean. I'm just not available to her and do not interact.
You really need to read everything here and get DR. Start implementing DB. You will feel a lot better once you detach.
Like it has been said. Stop all of the crap you are doing. You are not going to nice her back to reality. When you do nice things in response to disrespect you make yourself look weak. You need to drop the beta Male act and go alpha.
An alpha Male takes care of himself and takes zero [censored] from everyone else. But the alpha does it without being rude or keen. Confidence is key.
Please remember to journal here daily. If you have an interaction with WW post about it here for feedback. If you want to say something to your WW, post it here first before you do.
Maybe then I understand why being mean and unsupportive to her will potentially accomplish.
David no one is telling you to be mean and unsupportive. Don't confuse that with not being a doormat and weak.
For an example when she asked you to book a hotel room or she would end up on the street. A good response would have been "I am sorry to hear that, I am sure you will figure it out".
The hardest thing for newbies mainly men to understand is that you can't nice your way back. They end up acting like (another word for cats) and actually make matters worse.
It takes a lot of strength early on to say this is BS and I am not going to put up with it.
Do you have the strength David?
Read 'For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife'.....it made me cry. A lot of things listed in there are the things I did. A few things I will stop doing immediately:
- respond to her FB messages during the day. I know she is bored and that is why she wants to be entertained by me.
- cook Sunday dinner. For various reasons I didn't do it last Sunday and it apparently was not an issue
- give her a Valentine's Day gift. I got her golden unicorn earrings, she loves unicorns. I was working on a card as well.I put the earrings away, maybe one day she really deserves them
- fold and put her laundry away....if it blocks the dryer or wash machine I drop it into a basket....will still wash the kids' clothes
- celebrate Sunday afternoons and tell her that I liked being with her. I really do enjoy it because it is like old times when we just spent time together. I will go to the gym instead and let her figure out how to tune in her favorite cooking channel on YT TV
- offering her to join me for board game night. She mentioned some interest a few days ago, but I always wonder if she is not just eager to get me out of the house
- help fer with sending her job postings.....I have no real clue what job she wants since there is something wrong with everything I suggest....and she is perfectly capable of operating Google and Monster
- go bananas of the food she cooks....but that will be damn hard because she is an amazing cook
- ask her if she needs something from the store...it will be tricky when doing grocery shopping
What I already no longer do
- comment on her looks
- tell her that I love her...I told her plenty of times and if she doesn't know by now it wont help
- bother with her car. I spent 1600$ on repairs in November, so it is safe to drive and that should be good enough...and technically it is my car, both cars are in my name
Leaves a few things I am unsure about
- make coffee for both of us in the morning....any harm in doing that?
- tell her where I'm going....thinking of emergencies, and she does tell me where she is going
And the biggest problem of all....what to do when I hit the emotional wall and break down. I haven't figured out how to cope with all of this, her, me, my marriage, the kids....especially my kids.
Wow...this is so damn hard.
David,
Listen to what everyone is telling you on here, really listen and let it set in, especially from vets like AnotherStander who have counseled many, many people in similar situations. A lot of what you hear on here may sting, a lot may feel wrong, but that is normal, you are having to face hard truths and act in new ways (the old ones clearly were not working.)
There are a lot of people on here who are dealing with in-house separations. Read up on their sitches. It is not easy to detach like that, but it can be done.
Also, I would think seriously about steps to protect yourself financially. Your wife seems to be making very unwise decisions right now and you don't want to leave yourself exposed.
Good luck. Have patience.
Dave,
You don't need to worry about the coffee. If you make a pot and there is enough for her thats not you doing her a favor. There is a difference between making coffee and getting her a cup and taking it to her. Don't get her a cup.
You need to stop doing anything that is convenient for her or services her in any way. Not only is this to protect yourself emotionally, its for her to "feel" the loss of you.
I am in IHS and I got the ILYBNILWY speech back in August 2018. I confirmed PA October 31st. IHS was self imposed by WW September 2018.
This is time for you to grow personally. Go to the gym, get some new clothes, find a new hobby, make new friends, get in touch with old friends, visit parents and family, be gone as much as possible and split your GAL time between yourself and between your kids.
I plan most of my week around myself and plan two days out of the week to spend with my kids. All of that includes me being gone.
No you do not need to tell her where you are going. I assume you have a mobile phone. If there is an emergency with your kids she can call/text you.
Stop responding to her messages and calls. Only respond if there is a direct question, logistical issues with the kids or finances. Even then, respond on your time and keep it very short and without emotion.
If you get up to leave and she notices and asks you if you are leaving you respond with "yes". Thats it. If she doesnt ask, then just leave. You can keep your kids in the loop. I speak with my kids directly when I am going out of town or going to be gone. My kids are old enough that I don't need to coordinate anything for them.
If you are leaving and she asks and further probes you for information such as "Who are you going with?", you respond with "Friends". Or if she asks "Where are you going?" just respond with "out".
Remember, don't be rude. Just be indifferent. You can survive this and you WILL better yourself. Always be happy and upbeat around her. Always be positive in your interactions with your kids.
I feel that one of the most important things you need to do is get some boundaries in place. Go read the boundaries thread.
Remember, boundaries are for you and not for your WW. You should have a hard boundary wherein your WW is not allowed to speak with OM while at home or around you. Your WW is disrespecting your entire family by carrying on in the family home with the OM on the phone.
Dave,
Also be careful of pulling all the way back as you learn. Sounds like you're the primary bread winner if I'm not mistaken? I think you still have a financial responsibility to take care of the necessities like paying certain bills or maintenance like your car. It's tricky not to support their habits like paying for her phone if all she does is talk to him on it. Difference from not supporting a bad habit to punishing her if she makes no money and has been taking care of the house. You do need to protect yourself financially asap. I hope this makes sense.
You will feel waves of different emotions. These cycles are normal. You will want to initiate change which you need to and you deserve a change for the better, but don't rush. It's easy to jump the gun and cause more damage if your intention is to stand for your marriage. Again this is your journey. Don't do it for her, Do all this for you. As people have told me, think about your values and principles. Go by those as feelings are fleeting.
Now is a great time to find yourself again in all of this. Be patient, there is a lot to discover/rediscover. Don't be mean or punitive. Once you're somewhat clear headed, figure out where you stand and what you want.
You will hear that you can't change her.
You can only control yourself so ask yourself:
Do you want to be happy?
Do you deserve to be treated better and not as a door mat?
If you know the answer now is not focused towards her but is on your shoulders, what will you do?
Once you are more aware, you can start to put things into action like you are doing. Reading is key. Also learning to control your emotions. Then getting a life ,GAL , and detachment are so vital to your well being. I'm not talking about your marriage for a reason. That's on the back burner for now. Focus on you, you owe it to yourself to create your own happiness and a better mental and emotional state not dependent on another.
I am sorry you find yourself here, but before addressing anything else, there is one major thing that needs to be addressed.
This boyfriend from India is 99% a scammer. They prey on lonely women.
PLEASE DO SOMETHING TO PROTECT YOUR MONEY AND ASSESTS
Before you know it, you might find yourself with thousands siphoned from your bank account.
First and foremost, protect yourself. PLease.
I agree. He probably sees her as his ticket out and will tell her anything she wants to hear to make that happen. Protect yourself!!
David no one is telling you to be mean and unsupportive. Don't confuse that with not being a doormat and weak.
I think I understand...but not really. I know what the words mean, but I don't know what to do in practice.
For an example when she asked you to book a hotel room or she would end up on the street. A good response would have been "I am sorry to hear that, I am sure you will figure it out".
I agree...around that trip I made many mistakes....but I can't change that now.
The hardest thing for newbies mainly men to understand is that you can't nice your way back. They end up acting like (another word for cats) and actually make matters worse.
That is where my concern is....she told me all the things I messed up and didn't do. Now I'm doing it and it's not good? It leaves me confused. If I do these things I come across as doormat, when I don't do them I wonder if she thinks she was right all along and that I will never change[/quote]
It takes a lot of strength early on to say this is BS and I am not going to put up with it.
Do you have the strength David?
I missed the early on phase as this is going on for half a year now. I have no choice other than to have the strength.I have hope, she hasn't left yet and finally gets treatment for her depression.
What is the hardest is that I have nobody. My kids don't want to talk about it, my family is all the way over in Germany, and being extremely shy I have no close friends except for a few folks online.
Do I have the strength? I want nothing more than to find a way to a much better marriage with my wife. The difficult part is that she does not seem interested in that...although I really do not know what she is thinking.And I often wonder if I am really that unloveable, that horrible of a person that I got what I deserved. For months I am seeking advice and get it, but I feel no wiser. I don't know what to do.
Dave, I'm very sorry you're here. Everything she told you about your faults was nonsense to justify her affair. When you then respond to her complaints you validate them, so she feels even more entitled to have her affair.
You've been trying to "nice your way back" for the last seven months.
It's not working, it will never work.
You cannot placate her, you can not "prove your love" through acts of giving and support.
You also cannot push her away by withdrawing support.
She has chosen her course of action, and as of right now, *nothing* you do will impact it.
Your shortest path back together is to go the opposite direction.
You need to make things *worse* before they can get better
Are you willing to do that?
If not, you can expect many more years of the same thing you have now.
Acc
I agree. He probably sees her as his ticket out and will tell her anything she wants to hear to make that happen. Protect yourself!!
She says that he does not want to leave India, that he likes it where he lives.He is bound to take over the family business. If he cannot manage to get my wife a place to stay for two weeks, how is he ever going to run a business?
She says he has a lot of emotional intelligence and that I am a brick. I have no idea what that means.
A few months back I took over the day to day finances. I pay the bills and I freaked out over what appeared to be debt that might get too big to handle. It probably was fine, but I sold company stock and transferred money from Germany. I put a good chunk into my IRA and used the rest to pay off a bunch of credit cards. At least that put my mind at ease.
I don't know how much debt she accumulated on her CC, but that has not my name on it.
That said, there was a substantial amount of money in the account and currently carry a balance that easily allows for the unforseen expenses such as that big car repair. If she would want money she could have grabbed it, but didn't. Many times she told me that she is not interested in ruining me financially. So far that is true.
Things would be different (not easier and not peachy, just different) if the Indian guy would be out of the picture, but that isn't something I have any control over.
I missed the early on phase as this is going on for half a year now. I have no choice other than to have the strength.I have hope, she hasn't left yet and finally gets treatment for her depression.
Hope is good. I just would like to challenge you for right now to take your W out of the equation. What kind of life does David want to lead? It can be very overwhelming in the beginning. Are you exercising, eating well and getting good sleep?
What is the hardest is that I have nobody. My kids don't want to talk about it, my family is all the way over in Germany, and being extremely shy I have no close friends except for a few folks online.
Google meetup groups in your area and pick one. If you are shy it will be scary as fuch in the beginning. Just do it and you will thank me later. It's time to get out of your comfort zone.
Do I have the strength? I want nothing more than to find a way to a much better marriage with my wife. The difficult part is that she does not seem interested in that...although I really do not know what she is thinking.
She is not interested right now. That can and change if you can get your $hit together and start moving in a positive direction.
And I often wonder if I am really that unloveable, that horrible of a person that I got what I deserved. For months I am seeking advice and get it, but I feel no wiser. I don't know what to do.
You are not horrible and unloveable you just lost your way at some point.
Please add a signature at the bottom like I have. It helps people understand your situation better. Feel free to ask any questions or for clarifications.
This is probably going to be the hardest thing you ever go through but you will come out the other side a way better person if you are willing to do the work.
It is really important to read over all the homework Cadet sent you and start with trying to control your emotions the best that you can.
She may not be interested in ruining you financially, but he may be slowly pulling money out of her and she will want to help him as to not lose her.
She is being scammed. SO that big car repair money you might see slowly dwindled.
Take her off that account. Seriously. This can get bad.
Your shortest path back together is to go the opposite direction.
You need to make things *worse* before they can get better
Are you willing to do that?
I heard it loud and clear. My therapist told me the same. He said I need to break the obsession with my wife.
I appreciate all the advice, but when you say "make things worse" I don't know how and what to do.
At one point she started chatting with her bf when I was in bed, but I could hear her because the office is close to the bedroom. I told her that night that she got to sleep downstairs where the kids are. We got an extra mattress and she slept in the hallway down there for weeks until her dad bought her a day bed. I told her that I do not want to wake up next to someone who has no respect for me. Some weeks later she told me that her sleeping down there was "liberating"....whatever that means.
Since then I spend my evenings alone with the cats. My youngest son comes by to visit me often, my oldest once in a while.I play games with them or we watch funny YouTube videos. But aside from that being alone is hard.
So how do I make things worse?
Right now is about protecting you and your kids.
For starters:
1) Speak with a lawyer and get legal advise.
2) Setup bank account in your name only. Have your paychecks go there.
3) All joint CC should be canceled and paid off if possible.
No one has fallen in love with me for how well I clean out the cat litter box. Or how shinny the dishes come out of the dishwasher.
Read this:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=47467&Number=2057224#Post2057224Do not enable irresponsible (or disrespectful) behavior.
So how do I make things worse?
Lets use a different word. We want to make things better for you and hopefully the long term Relationship.
Right now, You want her to feel the natural consequences to her choices.
She has "fired" you as husband. Accept that. In reality, it is you who should be firing your wife for cheating.
Take away her power. Take back yours.
"This is no longer working for me" is what you should be thinking, not her.
"I do not want to be with a woman who does not want to be with me"
I think I understand...but not really. I know what the words mean, but I don't know what to do in practice.
Be indifferent. Don't let her actions and words bother you. So, go read the detachment thread!!! Haha...
That is where my concern is....she told me all the things I messed up and didn't do. Now I'm doing it and it's not good? It leaves me confused. If I do these things I come across as doormat, when I don't do them I wonder if she thinks she was right all along and that I will never change
That's right, you never had a chance at winning that one! It's confusing and that's because it doesn't make sense. But it's her story and she's sticking to it for now, so no need to fight her on it. Make positive changes in your life for yourself, do the things that you think are legitimately areas you can and should improve on.
You are not a horrible person, you are not unloved, and you did not deserve this. You asked
and the answer Yes, if you decide you do.
I would agree that you need to separate finances to protect yourself and your family. Based on what you said about her and alcohol and this mysterious man in India I really wouldn't trust her to make rational decisions. That doesn't necessarily mean unilaterally cutting her off, but you can't allow her access to all that money.
She may not be interested in ruining you financially, but he may be slowly pulling money out of her and she will want to help him as to not lose her.
She is being scammed. SO that big car repair money you might see slowly dwindled.
Take her off that account. Seriously. This can get bad.
This is legally not possible unless I go to court I guess. She needs to sign papers with the bank. I asked already.
I can create a new account and have my salary go there leaving enough money in the joined account to pay any bills that I didn't transfer over yet as well as leave money for expenses.
Thanks for all the responses.
I do have one pressing question....what should I tell my wife when she asks me why I detach? Plain out tell her that if she is not interested in me I am not interested in her?
I added info to my signature. What else would be helpful?
I made a few decisions
- will open a bank account in my name only and transition things over
- will look into closing the shared credit card account. I already have a new one only for me for day to day use. Will change anything that is charged automatically to that card
- once done I will leave only some money in the shared account
I signed up for a board game meetup months ago. I will go there tonight and have a good time.
Lastly.....I'm scared to the bone. I'm scared about what will come, about losing her for good, and above all what impact that has on our kids....and scared that I will fold under the stress and pressure.
And I feel lonely.
Lastly.....I'm scared to the bone. I'm scared about what will come, about losing her for good, and above all what impact that has on our kids....and scared that I will fold under the stress and pressure.
And I feel lonely.
Those are all normal thoughts for this situation. I know I feel them and think about it too. Life will never go back to what you knew it as before this all happened, and I can see that even though it's only been 2 months for me. It has helped me to try and find something each day that is good, even just a nice view of a snowy mountain on a sunny day.
This is a really tough thing to go through, I feel the same pressure and stress. Keep in your mind that everything you do is to improve yourself and improve for your kids. I focus on that and keep pushing forward. There is a long road ahead; there are lots of good people and much good advice here to help get through each day. Get stronger, get smarter, get new friends, get you and the kids out for fun activities.
I'm scared to the bone. I'm scared about what will come, about losing her for good, and above all what impact that has on our kids....and scared that I will fold under the stress and pressure.
Do not let fear control you. Fight fear with logic. Fight fear with knowledge. Fight fear with actions.
Prepare for your worse fear. Face it head on. Anything else will be easy.
I see this concept talked about a lot, hard to understand and difficult to implement. I think a discussion of what detachment is and how to effectively use it would be beneficial to most of us. I will take a shot at it and encourage others to chime in. There are some good resources on the web Al-Anon uses detachment as does co-dependendence literature.
To me detachment means letting go of outcomes. I don't control the outcome so I shouldn't place my worth on the result. Doesn't mean stop caring, not trying, not having a plan, or giving up. I am solely in control of myself. If I do my best, I did all I could at the time then it has to be enough. I can learn from the experience and improve the process for future experiences.
How to practice detachment? Figure out the worst thing that could happen to you? (Spiers Doctrine - "The only hope you have is to accept the fact that you're already dead. The sooner you accept that, the sooner you'll be able to function as a soldier is supposed to function.") So the only thing that matters is are you doing the right thing. It easier to make a plan, take action and be brave when you aren't afraid of the outcome, you can't get hurt if you are already dead.
Retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties and at the same time confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
Read this:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=47422&Number=2054770#Post2054770Read this:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=46578&Number=1998146#Post1998146 Learn to be OK by your self. When you need interactions, go out into public. Meet new people.
Thanks for all the responses.
I do have one pressing question....what should I tell my wife when she asks me why I detach? Plain out tell her that if she is not interested in me I am not interested in her?
I added info to my signature. What else would be helpful?
I made a few decisions
- will open a bank account in my name only and transition things over
- will look into closing the shared credit card account. I already have a new one only for me for day to day use. Will change anything that is charged automatically to that card
- once done I will leave only some money in the shared account
I signed up for a board game meetup months ago. I will go there tonight and have a good time.
Lastly.....I'm scared to the bone. I'm scared about what will come, about losing her for good, and above all what impact that has on our kids....and scared that I will fold under the stress and pressure.
And I feel lonely.
You don't tell her you are detaching. You just detach. Actions, not words. In my experience they do not ask us why we are acting differently.
Don't be scared. Fear will hold you back. Don't focus on losing her, you already lost her. Your relationship is over. Its already done. So be the best version of yourself you can possibly be.
And don't worry, you WILL feel better. This board saved my life. I was spiraling out of control trying to navigate my sitch. I was extremely depressed, angry, sad and riding the roller coaster of emotions non stop. I put my foot down hard and detached hardcore. I reduced my contact with my WW to almost nothing and began to just enjoy my life.
That caused my WW to constantly bounce off of me to fill the void with negativity. I just ignore it and keep moving forward. You need to get to the point where you are indifferent about her. When you get to this point you will feel much better about yourself.
You will realize that you are "a man only a fool would leave" and that there are literally billions of other women on this planet, out of which there is absolutely at least one that would treat you like a king like you deserve.
That being said, it hurts man and it will for a while, but the sooner you get to practicing DB, the sooner you will feel better. Don't bottle up your emotions. If you need to cry, then cry, as long as its not in front of the kids or the W. If you are angry, go to the gym and beat the crap out of yourself. Make sure that your pent up energy is spent on something healthy.
DO NOT get drawn into talks about R or into any arguments. You may find that when detaching, like with my WW, all they want to do is try and spark a fight or criticize you. Just ignore it and move forward.
I do have one pressing question....what should I tell my wife when she asks me why I detach?
This specific question most likely will not get asked.
Other questions will come up. Short vague answers (happy and confident from you)
W:"H, where are you going?"
H:"Out"
W:"With who"
H"friends"
W:"When will you be home"
H:"Not sure" or "I haven't decided"
You have two main functions:
1) Supper Dad
2) Detach
More on Attraction:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2057372#Post2057372
Dave,
I’m with you—it’s scary and don’t know what to expect, all the while dealing with guilt / remorse over what was. But the advice from ST is spot-on, and I need to remember this for myself, too.
It will get better—it time.
You don't tell her you are detaching. You just detach. Actions, not words. In my experience they do not ask us why we are acting differently.
Don't be scared. Fear will hold you back. Don't focus on losing her, you already lost her. Your relationship is over. Its already done. So be the best version of yourself you can possibly be.
And don't worry, you WILL feel better. This board saved my life. I was spiraling out of control trying to navigate my sitch. I was extremely depressed, angry, sad and riding the roller coaster of emotions non stop. I put my foot down hard and detached hardcore. I reduced my contact with my WW to almost nothing and began to just enjoy my life.
That caused my WW to constantly bounce off of me to fill the void with negativity. I just ignore it and keep moving forward. You need to get to the point where you are indifferent about her. When you get to this point you will feel much better about yourself.
You will realize that you are "a man only a fool would leave" and that there are literally billions of other women on this planet, out of which there is absolutely at least one that would treat you like a king like you deserve.
That being said, it hurts man and it will for a while, but the sooner you get to practicing DB, the sooner you will feel better. Don't bottle up your emotions. If you need to cry, then cry, as long as its not in front of the kids or the W. If you are angry, go to the gym and beat the crap out of yourself. Make sure that your pent up energy is spent on something healthy.
DO NOT get drawn into talks about R or into any arguments. You may find that when detaching, like with my WW, all they want to do is try and spark a fight or criticize you. Just ignore it and move forward.
Plain out tell her that if she is not interested in me I am not interested in her?
Dave - one thing I notice in your postings is things like the above. Do you see how you are constantly REACTING to her? What are YOUR values? YOUR ideals? YOUR concept of what a relationship and marriage should look like? How is she living up to YOUR standards?
You Are detaching because it is what is best for you. You are working at rebuilding your life and yourself into the person you want to be. Her toxic energy will only bring you down.
Continue to focus on what is best for you. And your kids.
Center your choices around that. Not around her behavior l.
Also, I know it’s in the past, but it blows my mind that you stopped therapy because it was too expensive but bought your W not one but TWO plane tickets from India.
Those two things are not related. I agree that my actions around that trip were rather stupid....but one is always wiser after the fact.The one ticket she booked on her CC...not that it really is that much of a difference. I know if messed this up, but there is no help provided by beating me up for it now. Believe me, I did that enough myself. It happened, it's done, no matter what it won't change.
My questions, concerns and comments may sound odd....but my main goal is to save my marriage. I want to avoid divorce, not provoke one. This is why I am confused by the advice given. Maybe I am dense, but how would cutting her off financially, making things worse for her, being cold, and spending more time away from home (I do plan to take the kids as much as possible...movies or sth, but within reason). If someone did that to me I would feel as if they really hate me. Why does this work? What does it accomplish? Especially when I feel miserable doing it?
What are my values? My values are to provide and care about those who are dependent on me, foremost my children. I don't want them to have even more disruption in their lives than they already have. That includes trying hard to keep the house they grew up in.
I also believe in total loyalty. Months ago I was seeking a replacement for my wife for lack of a better word, but all the time it just felt wrong. I did befriend one woman closer, but we never met and I eventually broke off any contact. I am still married and that means something to me, even if my wife sees it totally differently.
My ideals are to have a family where we stick together, where we forgive even bigger flaws, where we love and respect each other, where my kids have a mother, where we do not fear coming home wondering what the next blow will be. A home where we are honest, where we can talk about anything, and where we can tell each other if we are upset about something the other did.
I want a happy home with a happy family....right now we are miles away from that because my WW is ridiculously stupid and throws away everything she (and we) worked so damn hard for the past 20 years. Half of our lives just down the drain? I have no idea what the heck happened to her. How much of that is her depression? I read a lot about depression and the impact on a marriage and she checks off all the boxes. I have a moral problem with that. She has an illness, she is sick. Would I do the same if she had cancer or was paralyzed?
It was a rough day. Game board meetup was fun, but I have to turn my mind off now, watch a movie and sleep. And yes, I do sleep somewhat OK, I do eat, and as time allows I go to the gym. I still look like a potato, but I always have.
I try detachment. I will have to experience if it is the best for me. What matters most to me is that for the rest of my life I can look at my own face and tell me that I did everything I could to save my marriage, no matter how the story ends. I love my wife.
Dave.
I know its confusing. The main point is that you MUST not only understand, but also accept that your marriage is over. That's it. It's over. As of now there is nothing to save. There is nothing you can do besides focus on yourself.
The point of DB is to better yourself. In bettering yourself by only focusing on yourself, there is a chance, a very slight one, that your W will get out of the fog and attempt to reconcile.
However, that cannot be your main focus. Your main focus is you. When you become a kick ass, self sufficient alpha male, you will be 100% secure with yourself and 100% confident in yourself.
The result of that is that your W may, again may, see these changes and realize that you are not plan B.
You have to act like it's all over. You have to show her you dont need her. In the likely scenario where your W does not come back and you divorce, you will have made so many positive changes in yourself and will be so much of a better man and in a better place that you will be absolutely fine with a D.
Follow the rules, it works. Go read my sitch.
I went from a bumbling confrontational pursuing idiot to having enough confidence that I now have women approach and pursue me for dates.
This part of your life is a gift of time to better yourself for your future, whether that be with your W or someone that deserves to be with you.
You deserve better. Your W does not deserve a man like you, so prove that to yourself. Show the world that you are a bad ass.
I read your posts and you are 100% attached at this time. So yes it's very counter intuitive. Its odd and feels weird as hell to just back off. But that is your only chance to even remotely save your M.
You need to show your W that you are not f**king around. That this isnt some game. That you can be such a bad ass that you can handle anything and have any woman in the world you want.
Right now you are in the mindset of "what will W think if I do this?"
You need to be in the mindset of "how will doing this benefit ME?" Along with "who cares what W thinks or does?"
Sorry for the double post...did not know that there was an edit time limit.
Also, I know it’s in the past, but it blows my mind that you stopped therapy because it was too expensive but bought your W not one but TWO plane tickets from India.
Those two things are not related. I agree that my actions around that trip were rather stupid....but one is always wiser after the fact.The one ticket she booked on her CC...not that it really is that much of a difference. I know if messed this up, but there is no help provided by beating me up for it now. Believe me, I did that enough myself. It happened, it's done, no matter what it won't change. Back then I wanted nothing else than my kids to get their mom back.
Therapy was 180$ a session for a therapist out of network. With my deductible I would have racked up a multitude of what a plane ticket costs within a few months. Besides that, the therapist gave some really crappy advice. We both went and she even encouraged my wife to go on that trip (Mom is taking a vacation). She also told me not to let the kids know about anything. They are 13 and 17 now, they are neither blind nor stupid, they know what is going on.
I started therapy again, visits are covered, I am out the 20$ copay....and this therapist at least has a plan, he spends way more than the 45 minutes with me so far each time, gives me homework, and will teach me REBT.
Back then I was not thinking straight...I still struggle a lot, but it has gotten much better.
My questions, concerns and comments may sound odd....but my main goal is to save my marriage. I want to avoid divorce, not provoke one. This is why I am confused by the advice given. Maybe I am dense, but how would cutting her off financially, making things worse for her, being cold, and spending more time away from home (I do plan to take the kids as much as possible...movies or sth, but within reason). If someone did that to me I would feel as if they really hate me. Why does this work? What does it accomplish? Especially when I feel miserable doing it?
What are my values? My values are to provide and care about those who are dependent on me, foremost my children. I don't want them to have even more disruption in their lives than they already have. That includes trying hard to keep the house they grew up in.
I also believe in total loyalty. Months ago I was seeking a replacement for my wife for lack of a better word, but all the time it just felt wrong. I did befriend one woman closer, but we never met and I eventually broke off any contact. I am still married and that means something to me, even if my wife sees it totally differently.
My ideals are to have a family where we stick together, where we forgive even bigger flaws, where we love and respect each other, where my kids have a mother, where we do not fear coming home wondering what the next blow will be. A home where we are honest, where we can talk about anything, and where we can tell each other if we are upset about something the other did.
I want to be a better person today than I was yesterday. I am not perfect. I do not read minds.Whatever I do I want to do it for a reason, even if it ends up being the wrong choice.
I want a happy home with a happy family....right now we are miles away from that because my WW is ridiculously stupid and throws away everything she (and we) worked so damn hard for the past 20 years. Half of our lives just down the drain? I have no idea what the heck happened to her. How much of that is her depression? I read a lot about depression and the impact on a marriage and she checks off all the boxes. I have a moral problem with that. She has an illness, she is sick. Would I do the same if she had cancer or was paralyzed?
It was a rough day. Game board meetup was fun, but I have to turn my mind off now, watch a movie and sleep. And yes, I do sleep somewhat OK, I do eat, and as time allows I go to the gym. I still look like a potato, but I always have.
I try detachment. I will have to experience if it is the best for me. What matters most to me is that for the rest of my life I can look at my own face and tell me that I did everything I could to save my marriage, no matter how the story ends. I love my wife. I love my sons. And I want this effen nightmare to end.
People want what they can’t have.
Your wife is “dating” another man and NOW you realize you are desperately in love with her.
I’ll try to post more tomorrow. But think about that.
Also, I know it’s in the past, but it blows my mind that you stopped therapy because it was too expensive but bought your W not one but TWO plane tickets from India.
What are my values? My values are to provide and care about those who are dependent on me, foremost my children. I don't want them to have even more disruption in their lives than they already have. That includes trying hard to keep the house they grew up in.
I also believe in total loyalty. Months ago I was seeking a replacement for my wife for lack of a better word, but all the time it just felt wrong. I did befriend one woman closer, but we never met and I eventually broke off any contact. I am still married and that means something to me, even if my wife sees it totally differently.
My ideals are to have a family where we stick together, where we forgive even bigger flaws, where we love and respect each other, where my kids have a mother, where we do not fear coming home wondering what the next blow will be. A home where we are honest, where we can talk about anything, and where we can tell each other if we are upset about something the other did. I want a happy home with a happy family.
That is EXACTLY how I feel too Dave...exactly. Sadly, my H decided long ago that he had other priorities. He could have made so many different choices and taken steps to save our marriage instead of doing what he did. I am so clear on my values and priorities, it just never occurred to me that he would have different ones even though, looking back, the signs were there. I have thought about trying to find a replacement for him to try to expedite my healing process but, the truth is, there is no replacement for him. He is the father of my children and the man with whom I pledged to grow old and just because he has decided to go back on his vows does not mean that I can do the same as easily as he has. I can’t. It’s just not in my DNA. So I have to take the time I need to get through this in a way that is true to my values and honours the love that we shared. Sounds like this may be your path as well.
I know what you are going through Dave. Stepping back and letting your W do what she thinks she needs to do is so counterintuitive. I know you want to hang on and you feel like that if you give her what she says she wants, you are sending her the message that you don’t care or that you are in favour of breaking up your family. The thing that you need to realize is that she is, in her mind, already gone and there is nothing you can say to to change her mind right now. Every time you try to, you push her away. It is pressure. And it is so easy to do. Honestly, at the beginning of this, my H was waffling. I should have stepped back and gone completely dark but instead I pursued him...often in really subtle ways so that I didn’t even realize I was doing it. Only now that I know better, can I look back and realize that I may have forced his hand a bit. Would we still have gotten to the point we are at now? Probably but I’ll never know and maybe that is a good thing. Anyway...my point is that the sooner you start doing what the people on this board recommend, the better off you will be and the better the chance for R. The time for that is not now though. Right now you need to focus on protecting you and your kids from your wife’s poor choices. Read DR, figure out your 180s and DB like crazy. Don’t be cold...be as detached and as neutral as possible. Don’t make things easy or hard for her. Set some healthy boundaries. Do not rescue her. Let her solve her own problems. It will get easier, I promise. And while you are saving yourself, you may just save your marriage too. But you have to save yourself first. (((HUGS)))l
People want what they can’t have.
Your wife is “dating” another man and NOW you realize you are desperately in love with her.
I’ll try to post more tomorrow. But think about that.
I always loved my wife, not just now. I moved across the ocean for her. Anything she ever wanted to do I supported her, be it culinary school or violin lessons or taking classes at college for fun. Whenever she made it clear to me that she is upset I corrected whatever it was immediately. But most of the time she did not say a thing. She said she didn't say anything because she did not want to hurt me. I have a big heart, I never not cared about her and my family, but I cannot read minds.
The core reason I came here is to find help and support. I appreciate all the responses, but scolding me for things past that may not even have happened is not helping me. I get that from my wife already. Sorry for being so blunt...but I stare at the banner at the bottom of the page "Save Your Marriage!". That is what I want to accomplish and that is what I need help with.
That is EXACTLY how I feel too Dave...exactly.
[...]
Read DR, figure out your 180s and DB like crazy. Don’t be cold...be as detached and as neutral as possible. Don’t make things easy or hard for her. Set some healthy boundaries. Do not rescue her. Let her solve her own problems. It will get easier, I promise. And while you are saving yourself, you may just save your marriage too. But you have to save yourself first. (((HUGS)))l
Thank you so much for writing this. It is advice I understand and it gives me hope and happiness. Yea, I'm crying again, but this time it is relief....and a hug, even when it is only virtual.
I will work on 180, I will put myself in a better position to control finances (it will be tricky), and I will limit interactions with my wife as much as I can without being mean about it (like running out of the room as soon as she shows up). I will stay busy this weekend and see if my kids want to go to the movies. Haven't done that in a while.
I also have to make plans to make sure bills are paid in April when I am away for two weeks visiting family. My brother turns 50 and he is paying for me to come visit. I haven't seen my family in three years and who knows what happens when I am away entirely. My guess is my wife will move out or cleverly schedule another trip to India a few days before I come back. If she does that I change the locks on the doors. No point in worrying about this, none of that happened and I cannot control it either.
Although my oldest son doesn't really want to talk to me about personal stuff, he is a great kid. Both are. They hugged me when I was really destroyed. We took care of things together. Even with WW out for good, I am sure we will be fine.
"If you want love, you have to go through the pain" - NF
People want what they can’t have.
Your wife is “dating” another man and NOW you realize you are desperately in love with her.
I’ll try to post more tomorrow. But think about that.
I always loved my wife, not just now. I moved across the ocean for her. Anything she ever wanted to do I supported her, be it culinary school or violin lessons or taking classes at college for fun. Whenever she made it clear to me that she is upset I corrected whatever it was immediately. But most of the time she did not say a thing. She said she didn't say anything because she did not want to hurt me. I have a big heart, I never not cared about her and my family, but I cannot read minds.
The core reason I came here is to find help and support. I appreciate all the responses, but scolding me for things past that may not even have happened is not helping me. I get that from my wife already. Sorry for being so blunt...but I stare at the banner at the bottom of the page "Save Your Marriage!". That is what I want to accomplish and that is what I need help with.
I was worried that you would misunderstand my quote and I apologize if you took offense. My point was not directed at you, but at her. Think about your past. Of course you loved (and still love) your wife. Nobody is disputing that. But it took until she said she wanted to leave/find a new boyfriend you to jump into Super H mode. Once you thought you might lose her, you tried to do everything you could to try to "win" her back.
My point is that you need to consider the same psychology when dealing with her. If you let her do whatever she wants, and you are always right there pursuing her, what incentive is there for her to choose to be with you? She knows that she has you dangling on the hook as her "Plan B", so why would she ever choose to give up the excitement and possibility of Plan A? In other words, if she will have you as a a safety net no matter how badly she behaves, then theres no reason for her to try whatever other options she has.
Youre right, this is a marriage saving site. And I and everyone else posting to you wants to help you save your marriage as much as we can. Unfortunately, there isnt a magic "to-do" list that will change your wife's mind and get her to choose you. The analogy I use to think about this is that imagine you and W are out for a walk and she is 3 steps ahead of you. No matter how fast you walk, she will just speed up and always stay 3 steps ahead. Right now, you are killing yourself chasing after her and for no results. Our advice makes no sense, but it's to just stop walking. You dont need to be mean or cold or rude. That would be walking away. Just stop and take your focus off of catching up with her. The catch is that there is no guarantees that your W will ever turn around. Someday, she will probably realize you arent chasing her anymore...but whether that matters to her is out of our and your control. My ex-wife never gave a second thought about turning back, and I am OK with that.
The advice here feels very counter intuitive. I get that. One other question that helped me a lot as I was going through this was "Does your wife have any fear of losing YOU?" If thats a no, then theres a problem. Like I said above, if she knows she wont lose you as an option, then there is no incentive for her to pick you.
I would start by reading the homework Cadet posted to you. Especially the 37 rules and the newcomer with a WW threads. Good luck and stick with us.
Maybe I am dense, but how would cutting her off financially, making things worse for her, being cold, and spending more time away from home (I do plan to take the kids as much as possible...movies or sth, but within reason). If someone did that to me I would feel as if they really hate me. Why does this work? What does it accomplish? Especially when I feel miserable doing it?
This is what I was trying to quote last night. It works, because it is you standing up for yourself. It is you enforcing your boundaries. It is about not being her doormat. And that is ATTRACTIVE in a mate. You know all those movie tropes of Steve McQueen or James Dean or whatever. Thats kind of the concept. Its almost like the less they care about the girl, the more the girl wants them. It's kind of messed up, but it's also kind of how the world works.
So thats where you should be focusing. How can I be more attractive? And furthermore, how can I earn back her respect? If someone was stealing money from you, would you open your wallet up and give them your bank account numbers? If someone was treating you badly, would you continue to provide them emotional support?
The advice here is not to 'punish' your W per se. It's more about figuring out how you deserve to be treated by the people around you and holding everyone (including W) to that standard.
My values are to provide and care about those who are dependent on me, foremost my children. I don't want them to have even more disruption in their lives than they already have. That includes trying hard to keep the house they grew up in.
Great. Keep providing for you and for them. And part of that includes providing for your W. Nobody is suggesting that she needs to sleep on a rock outside in the backyard. Unfortunately, remember, you cant control W. So all you can do is put yourself in the best position for reconciling. Accept that you may fail. Even still, you can help control how much disruption exists in your kids lives.
I also believe in total loyalty. Months ago I was seeking a replacement for my wife for lack of a better word, but all the time it just felt wrong. I did befriend one woman closer, but we never met and I eventually broke off any contact. I am still married and that means something to me, even if my wife sees it totally differently.
Great. Be loyal.
But accept that your W isnt.
So how are you going to hold true to your values when the people close to you dont meet your standards?
My ideals are to have a family where we stick together, where we forgive even bigger flaws, where we love and respect each other, where my kids have a mother, where we do not fear coming home wondering what the next blow will be. A home where we are honest, where we can talk about anything, and where we can tell each other if we are upset about something the other did.
This sounds great. And you can certainly uphold your end.
Again, you cant control your W's actions. So how will you protect yourself and your ideals when she spits in the face of these values?
I want a happy home with a happy family....right now we are miles away from that because my WW is ridiculously stupid and throws away everything she (and we) worked so damn hard for the past 20 years. Half of our lives just down the drain? I have no idea what the heck happened to her. How much of that is her depression? I read a lot about depression and the impact on a marriage and she checks off all the boxes. I have a moral problem with that. She has an illness, she is sick. Would I do the same if she had cancer or was paralyzed?
I am curious. What would you say YOU contributed to the downfall of your marriage? It isnt a one-way street where she just woke up one day and wanted to mess up everything. Accept that this is a long term decision that she finally came to after years of trouble. Another metaphor I used for myself was imaging my wife as a lake freezing upwards. You probably didnt notice it until the lake had frozen over, but it took years of pain and anguish for her to get to the point where it looks like "she snapped". THOSE are places you should be looking at for your 180s.
It was a rough day. Game board meetup was fun, but I have to turn my mind off now, watch a movie and sleep. And yes, I do sleep somewhat OK, I do eat, and as time allows I go to the gym. I still look like a potato, but I always have.
FUN is good. I imagine you spent two hours while playing that game with your mind relaxed and not obsessing over your marriage. What other outlets do you have for that?
By the way, I joined a board game meetup right as my sitch was starting. It was the best thing that ever happened. I am sure I wouldnt be in the place where I am today without that.
The core reason I came here is to find help and support. I appreciate all the responses, but scolding me for things past that may not even have happened is not helping me. I get that from my wife already. Sorry for being so blunt...but I stare at the banner at the bottom of the page "Save Your Marriage!". That is what I want to accomplish and that is what I need help with.
Dave, I've seen 2 responses like this from you. You are not being scolded. MoveForward was just trying to put things into perspective for you. When these situations start, the LBS (left behind spouse) is usually so emotionally hurt and weak and they have a hard time thinking logically and being the strong, attractive, healthy person that they were when the relationship began. It takes time for some of this info to sink in too. Your W is in a fog, and so are you. It is cliche around here, but you both need time and space for the air to clear.
Also, depression is in your thread title. If you're depressed I'm going to say I hope to God that you are getting the help you need and working on being healthy!
As for your finances, you don't need to boot your W off of the joint account, but you should at the very minimum put your funds into your own account for the time being. If she is getting spendy, you will be on the hook for it. You are protecting yourself and your marriage by this. But if you don't do it, I can't say I'd be surprised. As we say when talking business with contractors, "It's only money!" Hopefully you can laugh at that.
My guess is my wife will move out or cleverly schedule another trip to India a few days before I come back.
Well that would suck right? But is there anything you can do about what she chooses to do? If not, do your best to clear that mental headspace out and devote it to something that will make your life great. Therapy, GAL, gym time, reading, seeing friends. You want her back? That's how you do it. You want her to keep you and her boyfriend for a long, long time? Well then keep chasing around a woman who has rejected you. It seems like you've been doing this for 7 months now, but I don't read where it's gotten you any closer.
I'm really sorry you are here. I hope you take time to read some other threads. Here's one that was helpful to me, but there is quite a bit to read:
Hoosjim's thread
Dave, you are getting some gold-plated advice in this thread, I mean really great stuff. Read it, absorb it,
take it to heart.
People want what they can’t have.
Your wife is “dating” another man and NOW you realize you are desperately in love with her.
I’ll try to post more tomorrow. But think about that.
I always loved my wife, not just now. I moved across the ocean for her. Anything she ever wanted to do I supported her, be it culinary school or violin lessons or taking classes at college for fun. Whenever she made it clear to me that she is upset I corrected whatever it was immediately. But most of the time she did not say a thing. She said she didn't say anything because she did not want to hurt me. I have a big heart, I never not cared about her and my family, but I cannot read minds.
The core reason I came here is to find help and support. I appreciate all the responses, but scolding me for things past that may not even have happened is not helping me. I get that from my wife already. Sorry for being so blunt...but I stare at the banner at the bottom of the page "Save Your Marriage!". That is what I want to accomplish and that is what I need help with.
Usually the comments that anger us the most here are the truth darts that are hitting closest to the target. So ask yourself why you find that offensive. I mean YOU made the following comment:
Months ago I was seeking a replacement for my wife
So just a few months ago you were so done that you were looking for her "replacement"! And now suddenly you're going to die if you can't save your M? Move is right, you're caught in the WAS fog. This is a marriage you were nearly done with yourself just recently. Most of the people who end up here were not happily married themselves, but they forget that after BD. I've often said the only difference between a WAS and an LBS is the WAS dropped the bomb first. Here's the funny thing about BD- it puts the LBS into a fog that is as murky as the one the WAS is in. But their fog filters things the opposite of the WAS. Think of it this way, you have a piece of paper with a list of good things and bad things in the M. The good things are written in blue, the bad things in red. Your WW has been wearing blue glasses for a while now. When she looks at that piece of paper, everything written in blue (the good things) are invisible. She only sees the red things. When you got BD'd, you put on your own pair of glasses, except yours are red. All you see is the blue (good) stuff. With time you will both remove your glasses. You will remember the marriage wasn't so great, that there were a lot of unaddressed issues. And she will remember that it wasn't so bad after all, that there were a lot of positive qualities. What can you do to make her take her glasses off? You can't, she is on her own journey and she will get there with time. You can't speed her journey up but you can slow it down by feeding into her belief that you are the problem. But when you detach and give her space then at some point she'll realize her problems are not YOU, but are internal. And then maybe she'll start addressing them.
My questions, concerns and comments may sound odd....but my main goal is to save my marriage. I want to avoid divorce, not provoke one. This is why I am confused by the advice given. Maybe I am dense, but how would cutting her off financially, making things worse for her, being cold, and spending more time away from home (I do plan to take the kids as much as possible...movies or sth, but within reason). If someone did that to me I would feel as if they really hate me. Why does this work? What does it accomplish? Especially when I feel miserable doing it?
This isn't about being angry/ cold/ indifferent/ unloving. It's about saying "I will not be treated like a doormat, so I am going to pull back and focus on me instead of giving you anymore of my time and energy." Dig up TXHubby's threads and read them. His situation was nearly identical to yours. Girls-gone-wild WW that was actively engaging in an affair while living at home, and doing it blatantly in his face. He tried to appease her, he tried to nice her back, he showered her with love and attention while turning a blind eye to her affair. And he was miserable just like you are. Then one day he had an epiphany, he literally just said to himself "this is ridiculous, I am letting her slowly kill me and I am worth far more than this." From that moment forward he did a complete 180. He still lived at home with his W, but he quit giving her the time of day. He quit putting up with her ridiculous behavior. He picked up new friends, he started GAL'ing like crazy. He was hardly ever home because he was always busy. He started kicking butt at work. Losing weight, getting his mojo back. Suddenly his W saw someone attractive, confident, grabbing life by the b@lls, and someone unavailable to her! Eventually she BEGGED him to take her back. By the time she did he didn't even want her back, she had to work hard to get another chance with him. He doesn't post much anymore but last I heard they were still piecing, but the difference now is he continued his alpha streak and didn't go back to his old ways.
right now we are miles away from that because my WW is ridiculously stupid and throws away everything she (and we) worked so damn hard for the past 20 years. Half of our lives just down the drain?
Well you can look at it like that or you can listen to my outlook on my own sitch: "that was a fantastic 20 years together that allowed us to have 3 beautiful children who have grown into amazing adults, and now that chapter is closing and another is opening, but I will always look back on that fondly." Just because she wants out now doesn't mean that it wasn't worthwhile time together.
Would I do the same if she had cancer or was paralyzed?
Here is the question you have to ask yourself every day: "do I love her enough to let her go?" You need to give her what she wants. If she were sick she would want your love and support. But she's not sick, and what she wants is you out of her life. So do you love her enough to give her what SHE wants and quit trying to force on her what YOU want?
I have a close family member, my age, who is married and engaging in an affair. Her H has no idea. However, she says, if he were to find out he would probably turn a blind eye and that would be so unattractive. What she would hope to see from him is not tolerating the A and setting boundaries and showing respect for himself. He has always been extremely beta and she is alpha and it's actually a turnoff for her.
Do you think she would have more respect for you if you were wooing her while she was actively engaging in an affair, or setting boundaries where you will not be act like a husband while she actively engaging in an affair?
Think about it.
Dave,
We aren't giving you advice to treat your W poorly. Also, nobody is criticizing you. Everyone here started in their sitch just like you. Wondering how on Earth detaching would help.
You are asking if you would leave your W if she had an illness. That is not a fair comparison because if your wife had an illness instead of an A, she would still be upholding her vows. Your W said screw your vows. The vows she took before God and family. She promised to remain loyal to you through everything until you die.
Your WW broke that promise. How is it ok for her to disrespect you, to so your vows in the trash and then you are the only one holding to your vows?
A MR will not work with only one person holding to their vows. Your W already fired you. This isnt something that is just going to blow over. This isnt just some random fight where everything is going to be ok. This is the end of your MR with your W.
Your MR was ended without your consideration or input. Go try DB and see how you feel. Or keep pursuing and being controlled by her wherein you will feel horrible all the time from the roller coaster of emotions that will never go away.
The longer you stay attached the more you will hurt.
My questions, concerns and comments may sound odd....but my main goal is to save my marriage. I want to avoid divorce, not provoke one. This is why I am confused by the advice given. Maybe I am dense, but how would cutting her off financially, making things worse for her, being cold, and spending more time away from home (I do plan to take the kids as much as possible...movies or sth, but within reason). If someone did that to me I would feel as if they really hate me. Why does this work? What does it accomplish? Especially when I feel miserable doing it?
Hi Dave,
Things that work are counter-intuitive. Everyone has a different definition of "that work". Saving the marraige may be the long term goal, but right now it is about PROTECTION. Things that protect your kids. Things that protect you and your family financially. Things that protect you emotionally.
Lets take cutting her off financially. My understanding is she is being irresponsible with the family money. (IE using family money to go have sex with a man that is not her husband). If you don't think she had sex with this man, then you need to address this immediately with your IC.
You are the one that is being responsible. Making the house payment, the car payment, paying the bills, correct? Do things that protect that. Do things that will not let her damage the family further (IE spend money on irresponsible things).
I was worried that you would misunderstand my quote and I apologize if you took offense. My point was not directed at you, but at her. Think about your past. Of course you loved (and still love) your wife. Nobody is disputing that. But it took until she said she wanted to leave/find a new boyfriend you to jump into Super H mode. Once you thought you might lose her, you tried to do everything you could to try to "win" her back.
OK...I understand now what you meant.It's all fine. I changed my ways after she made me aware of it. I may have mentioned it earlier, but all the dads I know did mainly one thing: work hard to provide. They all have or had marriages that lasted 50 years and beyond. There is nobody in my family who ever got a divorce or was unfaithful as far as I know. I'm not making excuses and blame bad role models. It just was never brought to my attention that things were wrong for that long...and then again....I still wonder what role my wife's depression plays in this.
The advice here feels very counter intuitive. I get that. One other question that helped me a lot as I was going through this was "Does your wife have any fear of losing YOU?" If thats a no, then theres a problem. Like I said above, if she knows she wont lose you as an option, then there is no incentive for her to pick you.
I would start by reading the homework Cadet posted to you. Especially the 37 rules and the newcomer with a WW threads. Good luck and stick with us.
At the moment she might fear losing me for purely economical reasons. She has no job, has trouble finding anything (she did apply for several positions), and is financially dependent on me. I wish she would get a job, work 40 hours a week, and be reminded that it isn't easy either. It would also get her mind on something else and the freedom to decide where she wants to go. I want her to stay because of me, not exclusively because of money.
I will reread the 37 rules and the linked threads. It is a lot that drops on me now and a lot of information. And the responses here rattled my cage quite a bit. I may need to slow down a bit to keep my sanity. Woke up at 3AM and could not think of anything else than detaching, bank accounts, being distant, and asking the cat what the heck I should do. She purred.
when you say "make things worse" I don't know how and what to do.
Here's what I mean when I say "make things worse": you are genetically wired to protect your wife and kids. When she's in distress, your first instinct is going to be to try to make things better. When you feel that you're making an effort to relieve her distress, it brings you a feeling of relief.
When you don't respond to her distress, its going to make you feel uncomfortable. You're going to get a cortisol dump and its going to be very tempting to act to make that bad feeling stop.
You'll tell yourself stories that you're being a bad person, or that you're "pushing her away" to justify trying to relieve your discomfort. "Making things worse" means that you grin and bear it.
You basically need to withdraw support -- emotional support and financial support to the degree possible. If she makes a mess, *she* needs to clean it up. You do not step in and enable her in any way.
If she gets mad at you, you shrug it off, you don't engage.
If she cries in front of you, you let her cry and you make NO effort to comfort her.
You go out and "get a life" and you don't feel *any* responsibility to explain or justify what you're doing, you just do it.
Very important: You are *not* mean, punishing, or passive aggressive. You don't make nasty comments. You don't go out of your way to inconvenience her, you simply act as if you are completely uninterested and unaffected by her.
If she wants to make love to OM in your front yard, you walk past, smile and wave. It just doesn't impact you emotionally.
When she senses that she's losing control over you, she *will* fight back. She will try to manipulate you to stay invested in her. The more you resist, the harder she will try. She'll scream and yell, she'll accuse, she'll break down and cry, she'll blame. The minute you engage, you lose. This will be uncomfortable, it will feel *worse* than giving in to her and engaging. That's what making things worse means.
Often people mistake this fighting on the part of the WAW as interest -- that they want you back and that's why they're engaging you. Don't be fooled -- you being emotionally invested in her is an insurance policy and nothing else. If things go horribly wrong with her affair partners and outside interests, she can always come back to her comfortable marriage.
Its a huge comfort to know that she has you to fall back on if things go badly for her. You've already proven that you'll save her, like when you sent her money and got her a return trip from India. You need to pull that safety net away entirely.
She needs to *fully believe* that you will not be there for her if she chooses to return, and that if she wants to come back she's going to have to work for it.
You can't tell her that, she'll never believe it. You have to show her that beyond a doubt with your actions.
Ever run into a crazy person on the sidewalk who points at you and yells at you? You do what you can to minimize the interaction but after that you move on. It doesn't ruin your day, it certainly doesn't hurt your self-esteem or make you feel worse about who you are.
You need to regard her with exactly the same level of detachment and disinterest. Whatever she does, your toes are still tapping.
At the same time, you have to build a life for yourself that anyone would want to be a part of, full of fun activities, outside interests, and engaging friends. If you can do both of those things -- completely emotionally uncouple from her (fake it until you make it) *and* build an amazing life for yourself, she'll clamor to come back and if she doesn't you won't care. That's your only winning path out of where you are, but getting there is going to be uncomfortable, and more painful than you feel today, because it will go against your white knight nature.
Acc
At the moment she might fear losing me for purely economical reasons.
I mean "Does she have any fear that YOU would 'dump' HER"?
This is what I was trying to quote last night. It works, because it is you standing up for yourself. It is you enforcing your boundaries. It is about not being her doormat. And that is ATTRACTIVE in a mate. You know all those movie tropes of Steve McQueen or James Dean or whatever. Thats kind of the concept. Its almost like the less they care about the girl, the more the girl wants them. It's kind of messed up, but it's also kind of how the world works.
It surely is messed up. I would not find that attractive at all, but this isn't about me. I'm also new to this.I did set some boundaries and since then my W no longer videochats with her bf while I am around. Not that this is a great success, but at least I no longer have to endure it.
So how are you going to hold true to your values when the people close to you dont meet your standards?
A very good question and one I do not have an answer for at the moment.
I am curious. What would you say YOU contributed to the downfall of your marriage?
I put too much focus on work. For a while we had a number of people quitting or getting fired in the department. At the same time work load increased drastically and pace got faster. I worked nights and weekends at times because I was under the impression that I will lose my job if I do not get the work done. It consumed me at times so much, that I could not sleep and woke up at 4AM to do more work from home. It's nuts, but that is what my dad did and my grandfather as well (he worked 11 years only night shift and then ran a side business during the day).
I no longer do that. I also no longer care that much. Right now I should be doing work, but this is more important to me. An eye opener was when my W said that she wouldn't have cared if I lost my job if it meant to have spent more time with the family. I regret that a lot. This morning my oldest son wanted to show me the chat bot he programmed. It was close to 8AM and I should have left for work, but I spent the time with him and had him explain how the bot works. Guess what....nobody here cares that I showed up late because I still outperform many.
The other big piece was with my oldest son and his gender identity issue. When that came out my wife went into full supermom mode. She spent the entire day diving head first into this and I was still staring into the headlights coming at me. As far as my son is concerned, I did not treat him any different than I had before. We share many interests. What mattered was that my wife was losing it out of fear that he might kill himself due to his problems. No matter what it is, she always dives in head first and gives 110% full tilt cranked to 11.A quality I admire. Within a few days she was miles ahead of me in that issue, she made all the decisions and then told me what she did and what happened. She did not tell me that they have a therapy appointment on this or that day, she told me that she took my son. What she did was right, but I felt I had no way into this whole process. I should have taken part in her actions far more. She felt being left alone to deal with it and I understand that.
The other things that came up were petty stuff. Like not commenting on her looks once when she expected it. Yea, I didn't say anything at that time, but hundreds of times before and after.
I am by no means a saint. I screwed up, but we each carry half of the blame. While I want to and did change, she just ran away to someone else.
FUN is good. I imagine you spent two hours while playing that game with your mind relaxed and not obsessing over your marriage. What other outlets do you have for that?
I love soccer, especially Borussia Mönchengladbach. I like watching the game live, takes two hours on a Saturday. I'm not that die hard that I am a sour puss all weekend if they lose. But my W complained about that, I always would watch soccer for hours. So that ruined it for me.
I like sorting things, especially stamps. I enjoy looking at the small pictures and marvel about the long travels the small pieces of paper made. I collect since I am six years old. W also complained about that, I would spend too much time on it. I ever do it only during winter.
I love music, and so does W, but lately music stirs up emotions and memories and I start crying. Yes, I am built close to water.
I love watching StarTrek...and I do that before I go to bed.It is the one time of the day where I really are for myself...and the cat. Kitty loves watching TV with me.
I like gardening. Used to do much more, but since May cut back a lot and gave up my plot in the community garden. W hates gardening because of her allergies.
The problem with all those outlets is that they are solitary for the most part. One reason why I essentially have no friends. So telling W that I am going out with friends is a big fat lie. Likewise, she does not have any either. I would have liked for a coworker to come over, but I was never allowed because the house was not clean. I should have done it anyway. But all my life I never had many friends.
I worked nights and weekends at times because I was under the impression that I will lose my job if I do not get the work done. It consumed me at times so much, that I could not sleep and woke up at 4AM to do more work from home. It's nuts, but that is what my dad did and my grandfather as well (he worked 11 years only night shift and then ran a side business during the day).
And you said they were both married 50+ years? So yeah, why do you think THAT contributed to the breakup of your M? I would argue that it didn't, again she is just rewriting history to justify her actions.
An eye opener was when my W said that she wouldn't have cared if I lost my job if it meant to have spent more time with the family.
Let me pose this question to you, let's say you said "screw it, I'm working 8 hours a day period" and you got fired and were unemployed for an extended time. Do you think your W would have said "oh that's OK honey, at least we're together now!!" No, she'd be screaming at you for not being a man, for making her have to go back to work, for not being responsible. You follow what I'm saying? When it comes to rewriting history you are the big loser no matter what, because she can manipulate history to make you look bad no matter what path you took in life. Before she started her wayward ways she probably admired you for working so hard to support the family.
The other big piece was with my oldest son and his gender identity issue. When that came out my wife went into full supermom mode. She spent the entire day diving head first into this and I was still staring into the headlights coming at me. As far as my son is concerned, I did not treat him any different than I had before.
I suspect there's some rewriting of history here too. My son went through something similar and when he disclosed it to me as I was dropping him off at school, I told him I loved him no matter what and to have a good day. When kids go through something like this they just want their parents to treat them like they are still NORMAL, not like they have some kind of disease that needs immediate treatment.
The other things that came up were petty stuff. Like not commenting on her looks once when she expected it. Yea, I didn't say anything at that time, but hundreds of times before and after.
Rewriting history again. I think you're struggling with what we're trying to tell you, we tell you but you still don't see it for what it is. SHE IS NOT WHO SHE USED TO BE. Please understand that. Like many LBS's before, you probably think you know her better than we do. You don't. When you got BD'd she stepped over the line from "your wife" who you knew better than us to "WAS/WW" who we know better than you. As I said before you've gotten some amazing advice here, better than a lot of new people get. Listen to it, and act on it. You have got to stop trusting your intuitions, they are WRONG.
Dave, I've seen 2 responses like this from you. You are not being scolded. MoveForward was just trying to put things into perspective for you. When these situations start, the LBS (left behind spouse) is usually so emotionally hurt and weak and they have a hard time thinking logically and being the strong, attractive, healthy person that they were when the relationship began. It takes time for some of this info to sink in too. Your W is in a fog, and so are you. It is cliche around here, but you both need time and space for the air to clear.
I understand this better now. I am on day 2 of my detachment attempts. We barely communicated, but she keeps sending a test balloon by messaging me a funny cat picture. I used to respond to it, but I no longer do. The only message I sent her was today to tell her that I bring dinner home. She also mentioned to me that something is wrong with her PC, but I did not respond to that either. I usually fix it for her, this time she may need to ask my son to help her out or figure it out herself.
Also, depression is in your thread title. If you're depressed I'm going to say I hope to God that you are getting the help you need and working on being healthy!
I do not have clinical depression, but my wife does. She gets treatment now for about six weeks and has regular therapy appointments. I read quite a bit about depression and the impact it has on a marriage. What tipped me off was a section in the book "How to improve your marriage without talking about it" by Love and Stosny. The items listed there what a depressed person typically does during marriage fit very much what W did and how she behaves.
I also joined a self-help group on FB and the stories that spouses of depressed / bipolar SO tell are carbon copies of what I am experiencing. I cannot explain everything with her depression, but I think it does play a larger role here.
As for your finances, you don't need to boot your W off of the joint account, but you should at the very minimum put your funds into your own account for the time being. If she is getting spendy, you will be on the hook for it. You are protecting yourself and your marriage by this. But if you don't do it, I can't say I'd be surprised. As we say when talking business with contractors, "It's only money!" Hopefully you can laugh at that.
I left work early today, went to the bank and opened my own account. I will ask my work to deposit my salary into my account, which will make it fee free. I will set up a recurring monthly transfer that deposits about a quarter of my pay into the joint account. That way that account will not accumulate fees. I will transfer money out of the joint account into my own account once I have it all set up. When I went to the bank I was a nervous wreck, when I left I felt relieved. It is with the same bank, so pushing funds around should not take more than a day.
My guess is my wife will move out or cleverly schedule another trip to India a few days before I come back.
Well that would suck right?
Yes, that would indeed suck. I expect the worst and mentally prepare myself for it. I plan that after my return I will be a single dad.
The behavior of not responding is spot on.
I get the dinner thing. I think its hateful detachment that if you are getting dinner for everyone that you get dinner for WW.
However if you plan on eating alone just leave and go eat somewhere without mentioning it.
Keep it up. It gets easier because your emotions flare up way less.
Have you read about temperature checks? If not do it.
Your WW will send mixed signals. She may say you are ignoring her or not paying attention to her, or send you pictures of cats or ask for help fixing something. You ignore all of that. That's her keeping you emotionally attached, aka that's her keeping you as plan B.
If you react you will hurt badly when she rejects you again. So just stay the course. If you get complaints like I did that we never talk or you're never home, validate her feelings. "That could be frustrating " and that's it.
I'm months into my sitch and honestly I detached in a very quick amount of time. I didnt just drop the rope, I lit it on fire and watched it burn.
Plenty of women on earth that wouldnt cheat on me. Same for you.
Dave, one piece of advice here. Maybe have your separate account at a different bank. Y'all are still married and you never know what kind of mistake a bank teller might make in regards to disclosing or giving funds to your W.
How's things going otherwise? Anything on your mind?
A quick status update....I have not been sitting around. Yesterday I opened my own bank account and work on transitioning over any payments to that account. I already filed paperwork with my employer to have my salary go into this new account. I will set up recurring payments into the joint account totaling about a quarter of my income. That ought to be plenty for WW to go buy clothes or cover any expenses. Since I am in control then of that amount I can adjust as needed. My plan is to get that all squared out within the next two weeks. I will transfer some amount to my account as soon as I get online access to my new account....of course that is not working as desired, but the bank has a 24x7 help line.
My boss went through divorce over 3 years ago and I asked him about the lawyer he used. I have an appointment on Monday as informational session only. I want to make sure that I know everything I need to know to file for legal separation purely for the sake of protecting myself and my kids. I don't want to be on the street...and neither do I want that for WW.
I also make plans to cancel the CC that we both use after I called up the car insurance company to provide them with new billing info. When I do that I will tell WW as FYI....and I figure at that point the latest she will catch on what is happening, so I need to time it right. Not looking forward to that encounter.
When I called the lawyer he asked me about the CC debt of WW. I do not have access to that info unless I snoop through her emails or look in her browser profile for the user name and password assuming she saved it. I'm somewhat hesitant to do that because it would be a giant break of trust.....not that she is forthcoming with anything.
I also wonder how I should respond if the kids come and ask me what the heck is going on. I am concerned that if I am open and clear with them that they will carry the news to WW, not because of any malintent, simply because they love their mom.
I go an eat lunch......this all is ridiculously stressful and I have to remind myself that time is of essence, but I don't need to move that mountain in a day. Gym tonight, they got new rowing machines that are fun.
I also wonder how I should respond if the kids come and ask me what the heck is going on. I am concerned that if I am open and clear with them that they will carry the news to WW, not because of any malintent, simply because they love their mom.
Most likely they won't ask, but they are older.
Kids:"What the heck is going on?"
Dad:"Why do you ask?"
Listen to them. Validate their concerns.
I would be vague.
Dad "I am not sure exactly. Your mom and I are dealing with some adult stuff. I will talk with mom about your concerns."
Dave, one piece of advice here. Maybe have your separate account at a different bank. Y'all are still married and you never know what kind of mistake a bank teller might make in regards to disclosing or giving funds to your W.
How's things going otherwise? Anything on your mind?
I thought about it, but I talked to the bank that I have now and due to the different profiles she cannot see my account, but I can manage both mine and the shared account. It will work in our favor since money transfers are instant.
While I understand now to make sure I have cash in the pocket I want to keep things cordial as much as possible. When the gloves come off only one group gets rich: the lawyers.
Today was another rough day. I hate all of it. ´Nevertheless, I got my other account all set up, transferred a reasonable amount for starters over to my account, tomorrow I will travel the banks to change the founding sources for automated payments (2 car loans) and find out what gets charged automatically against the shared CC. From what I recall it is only the car insurance. I am sure if I call them they will change it. After all they don't care where the money is coming from as long as they get it. I wrote a to do list and it is very long, but I knocked off a good chunk today.
I also inquired about psychiatrist/nurse practitioner for myself. Based on the assessment of my therapist who is also a medical doctor I may have mild clinical depression myself. At times I just lose it, I cry and are like a helpless child in the middle of a dark forest in a snow storm. I have no idea how to deal with that. After a few hours doing stuff it gets better. That's the biggest issue....being lonely, having nobody....I know I have folks here, random strangers who spend their time to help me although there are thousand of better things to do.
Anyhow...just made a date for tomorrow with my youngest son. We will go to the movies. Oldest son has no interest, but that's no surprise. No matter what anyone suggests he hates it, it's the age.
Got plenty of food, so nobody goes hungry.... now a load of laundry and then some StarTrek if I don't fall asleep like the three cats on my bed.
Worst time of my life...and I hate it all.
Usually the comments that anger us the most here are the truth darts that are hitting closest to the target. So ask yourself why you find that offensive. I mean YOU made the following comment:
Months ago I was seeking a replacement for my wife
So just a few months ago you were so done that you were looking for her "replacement"! And now suddenly you're going to die if you can't save your M? Move is right, you're caught in the WAS fog. [...] But when you detach and give her space then at some point she'll realize her problems are not YOU, but are internal. And then maybe she'll start addressing them.
You are right. The past days were absolutely miserable, because what I did and will do scares the crap out of me. I was shocked what responses I got here at first. I don't know what I was expecting, maybe people telling me "awwww, you poor guy, here is how you fix everything", but that is rather naive. I am glad I did not get those responses, because while they would have made me happy for the moment, they would be totally useless in the long run.
As far as "replacement for my wife"....it was a gut reaction to just find someone else. It taught me a lot of things. There are plenty of women or folks who claim to be women who only want to screw me over asking for cash, gift cards, iPhones, and once even prescription pain killers. In one case it started off much different and I was wondering if it might be something until I sent her an early Christmas card to the address she gave me. Card came back, which was no surprise. I work with a lot of digital map sources and that address is an empty parcel. So she was a fake, no matter how many messages and texts she sent me after I called it quits.
It also taught me that this is not the time to date or get involved with anyone. I don't have my mind in the right place, it would be irresponsible to put another woman into this mess, and my intentions are different. While I was talking to other women I always felt it to be wrong. It also does not match the values I mentioned. I never cheated and I do not start with this now even if I have reason. It is morally wrong.
I also was reminded of what my intentions are. As I mentioned early on, I love my wife. I still do. Just because she went off the rails and hooked up with someone else does not give me permission to do the same. Even if this ends up in divorce, I will still think highly of my wife. During all this time she only disappointed and hurt me with one thing: her affair. Other than that I have nothing bad to say about her.
Well you can look at it like that or you can listen to my outlook on my own sitch: "that was a fantastic 20 years together that allowed us to have 3 beautiful children who have grown into amazing adults, and now that chapter is closing and another is opening, but I will always look back on that fondly." Just because she wants out now doesn't mean that it wasn't worthwhile time together.
That is correct. I do not regret leaving my home, my family, move to a place where I had nothing other than someone who loves me...and we made it. We built a world for us and our kids and there are only very few things I regret.
Would I do the same if she had cancer or was paralyzed?
Here is the question you have to ask yourself every day: "do I love her enough to let her go?" You need to give her what she wants. If she were sick she would want your love and support. But she's not sick, and what she wants is you out of her life. So do you love her enough to give her what SHE wants and quit trying to force on her what YOU want?
That is an area I am still unsure about. All her family had and has at times debilitating mental illness. During her youth her parents were at times both hospitalized for months. They had no food, were on the brink of getting evicted, and it brought a lot of crushing hardship on the family. WW's sister still suffers from it, self-medicating for years with heavy drinking that she needed hip replacements at 40. Mental illness is a serious illness, but many have trouble to understand that the person with mental illness has no control over it and often not over themselves. They do things that are not based on rational thinking. I draw the parallel to cancer or being paralyzed because folks can much easier relate to those illnesses and handicaps. I disagree with your statement "she is not sick". Yes, she is. Read the many stories of people with depressed/bipolar spouses and they are for the most part a carbon copy of my sitch. Does that excuse and explain everything? No, but I would be unfair to not take that into consideration.
Had to break the radio silence today to get tax info from WW. Tax return will go into my account and I will send half of it to the shared account for her to use. She will use it to pay off her CC debt (at least that is what she used to do in the past), but we have other debt as well that needs to be taken care of. So it will work in her favor when I split it 50/50.
Got more info collected for the financial stuff and I will get most of that sorted out during the next days. Seems that she has not caught on to the noticeable amount having been withdrawn from the shared account.
I talked about this with my therapist as well and asked him how to react if she starts asking questions. His advice was to state that I need to take responsibility and protect the family since she does not want to tell me how much she owes on her CC and now that she opened a second one (I do believe her that she did that solely to get the 18 months interest free on balance transfers, but who knows, maybe Indian boy has a new moped now).
Taking my younger son to the movies soon (oldest does not want to go). I did not mention anything about that to WW. Also told my youngest son that if he needs anything, no matter what, to come talk to me. Oldest will be a bit trickier, he is more attached to mom, but that's OK. Lined up a small opportunity for my oldest to build a custom PC system. He is very good at that and I know he loves doing that.
Yesterday WW cooked dinner. Not sure if it was just to punish me, but it was Indian food. It was darn good, the chickpea fritters with corn are really tasty. I ate it. When she asked me how it is I only said "good"...and then continued on pretending to read a big fat book about USB (that computer connector). I grabbed that at work and it will help to ignore her by faking deep interest in this technology.
Started reading "The man's guide to women" by Gottman...and also got "Divorce Busting". Still waiting for "Seven Principles To Make Marriage Work" and have yet to read "Mating in captivity". Since the evenings are lonely I have plenty of time.
What else? Had fun watching the soccer game today. Borussia won 2-0 against Augsburg and while watching I was chatting with a new friend that I met at a coworkers bday party a week ago. He happens to be a big Borussia fan as well.
Also offered my son a few bucks to vacuum the entire place. I know, he should do that without being paid, but they never got any spending money and a few bucks won't make a difference. Also bought both sons their favorite snacks. I don't want to overload them with stuff and nice things, but I also don't want them to sit on ass all day long playing Minecraft.
Wow....what a week! At least I am moving now and got my head adjusted. Still hate all of it, every thing about it, but I will do anything to move forward. That includes to hit the gym on my free nights, fairly easy way to make myself scarce and it will do wonders to my pot belly.
Lastly, thank you everyone who rushed in with best intentions and tons of advice. It was info overload at times, but I truly and deeply appreciate it. Thanks for having patience with me. OK, I stop before I start crying.....
Movie time was great, my son had fun. He asked me if I have a job for him, so I told him to vacuum the place for 5$. Continue to ignore WW and respond only with the shortest possible answer when she asks me directly. Still feels highly uncomfortable.
Started reading "A man's guide to women", a book my therapist recommended. When I read the first chapter about attunement and active listening to generate trustworthiness I was confused. Here I get advice to detach and go dark, there I am told to give my undivided attention to generate trustworthiness. Now that I think about it more it seems both are right and not mutually exclusive. Attunement is key when there is a relationship, when she is looking at me and not at someone else.
Also read the introduction of "Divorce Busting". I agree that in my case divorce is not the solution. I am convinced that with some help we can work on the problems that soured the relationship, but for that the relationship needs to exist again at some level. It's been only a few days since changing course, so I don't think that things work that quickly. I have to have patience, lots of it.
Feeling rather empty right now, scared, and like throwing up.
When you interact with her, you should give her you attention. It would be rude not to when someone is speaking. But you shouldn't be gushing on her or chasing her around trying to win her back and the interactions probably need to be brief.
Don't be too scared. If you need to read, go read my sitch from day one to today. It gets better. Emotions come and go, once you go through this a few times you'll expect them to fade when things are feeling rough. And you learn how to deal with it.
Dave,
That’s so much good news. Take a moment and look back and re-evaluate your position. Look at the progress you are making. Gain strength from that. You are on the right path and becoming self aware, you’re not a mindless work drone for you W.
Few things, you say you notice this makes your W uncomfortable, good. Whatever you do, do not talk to her about your changes or ask if she’s noticed. She needs to feel like you’ve moved on and as if she is losing you and lost you.
This will be tough but once you get your own life, it will get easier.
I was worried that you would be confused with the principles from the different books but you have realized where you are at. With DR, that book tells you that you can’t change them but you can start to work on you and change you. You work on your half that got you here with your W. When you change you, this creates a change in the old dynamic between you and W. She no longer is dealing what the same you. The new you is no longer dealing with her in the same old routine. This slowly creates change.
You nailed it when you said those techniques in other books are when both parties are committed. When you two are all in for saving the marriage, you both can do things where the other spouse is receptive. This is key to understand, it says you understand you can’t force anything on her or use gimmicks to try and win her back. She genuinely has to want to work it out. I’m not saying to give up on the marriage but use this time wisely to work on you, to figure things out on how you can change for better.
Bad attitudes can rub off on people but so can good ones. Be strong here and show her positivity at all times.
Something your W said really struck me and I know it totally went over your head at the time. In one of your posts your wife said, the guy is emotionally intelligent and said you acted like a brick and you said you didn’t know what that meant. Do you still not know? Her saying that is a huge red flag and by your actions and naivity, I think this is where a lot of the fixing needs to be, your emotional control. Gain some insight into this. Figure out what you want to do. It’s like we’re still looking under the hood of this relationship to see why it’s not running the way it should have, running a diag on you. You get to choose where you want to spend time and what to improve on. IMO, for the man it starts with the EQ, his emotional control and well being. Detachment is that, creating boundaries is that, being confident.
Gaining knowledge is going to help you understand things better. Once you do that, you get to decide how you want to feel. You get to let go some of the blame, some of the anger, and sadness... not all of it, but you will slowly realize you didn’t push that button to make -her- do what she did, that’s on her. It’s not your job to fix her nor show her because she is blinded by her fog right now. The more you try for her the more futile it will be. You will know this deep down but your mind will tell you conflicting things like to keep trying, maybe something different next time, and you dig yourself deeper and deeper.
It’s good you are spending time with your sons, I know how the older one can be. My S11 plays internet games with teenagers. He’s been on Minecraft before too. I monitor him and teach him about internet etiquette because I take cyber bullying seriously. I have zero tolerance for that so my son knows he better have the correct attitude playing online as he does when talking to anyone in person. People these days think they can become their worse selves online because of anonymity and it’s ok. I’m going off on a tangent. We have a a board up for the kids to track money they make for doing odd little things around the house. The other night I was in my son’s room, hanging with him talking about the newest thing he’s in to, that ASMR? He got a little embarrassed but we talked and then I was just laying there with him enjoying our time and he goes uh dad...and I’m like yeah, lil smothering? He laughs and goes yeah, so I took my cue. S6 though? We can play alll day and he never gets tired of having a buddy.
It’s okay to feel scared and like you want to throw up. I think this was some of that turning point for me. I had to readjust in thinking maybe I was not going to be able to save my marriage and it made me feel sick to my stomach at first. I think you will keep feeling this at some key points due to the shock and realizations. It’s growing pangs. Allow yourself to feel them and try to understand what it means. It’s very important for you to find the courage and strength right now. Be patient and be kind to yourself and to others. Keep loving, keep learning, keep living.
Ovrr is right, try not to ignore her when she talks to you. My H ignored me for months. Outright pretended I was not in the room. It made me feel like a piece of sh!t. So I say this from someone who has been there. Everyone has the right to be treated like a person. Even when they act like entitled [censored]s. Even when you cannot bare the site of them. Detaching does not mean ignoring. It means not letting their words and behaviour dictate your reaction. Don't let her set the temperature in the room.
it is true, you cannot nice someone back, but at the end of the day, you have to be able to live with yourself and know that throughout it all, you acted honourably.
You are doing great. Keep focusing on your sons. PS - i often bribe my kids into doing their chores. Their pocket money is tied into their chores and behaviour.
you have to be able to live with yourself and know that throughout it all, you acted honourably.
FS,
That's it right there. Also, I want to add, it's okay to stumble. We are all not perfect.
Dave, if you acted outside of yourself or you find that you were not in your right mind for a time being, you can ALWAYS change for the better.
What I've seen many people do and I have been at fault is think they know what to do, they act and realize later it wasn't the best thing they could have done and they kick themselves for saying this or doing that. They're down on themselves and create this extra anxiety because they are too hard on themselves.
Don't be too hard on yourself. Learn to be patient, forgiving, and loving of yourself.
Their pocket money is tied into their chores and behaviour.
I have been spending more time rewarding and recognizing the behaviors of my boys. Apart from schoolwork and daily chores(responsibilities), it's very important to promote healthy behavior in our children today. I also talk to them about it to varying degrees.
Thank you all for your excellent advice and encouragement. I still have to learn a lot of what "going dark" means. I read most of the thread, but the concept is foreign to me.
I will adjust now to be not as stone wallish as I was in the past days. As it said somewhere, going dark is not on/off, but a dimmer. If I turn the light on a bit it might now shine even brighter then it used to.
Just got back from the gym, good place to think. When WW asks about the finances, I can honestly say that not much changed. I will still go ahead and cancel the shared CC...it will help us both to be a bit more cautious about spending. My credit is kick ass....so if the need arises that I need another card I am sure I can get one.
Making Bratwurst and Rotkohl tonight....yum.
Oh....one more question....wedding ring? I took it off yesterday for the first time since I got married and regretted it today. So I put it back on. I know it is just a ring, but it means a lot to me. Growing up I was this awkward, shy, overweight guy who never thought he could get a gf or get married. OK, I am still awkward, shy, and overweight, but I got to marry the love of my life.
Really hope she sees that I am a diamond and other guys are just pebbles.
Oh....one more question....wedding ring? I took it off yesterday for the first time since I got married and regretted it today. So I put it back on. I know it is just a ring, but it means a lot to me.
Each person is different. My H took his off and left it in a box on his dresser the day he left. I have kept mine on. And H knows it. To me, I'm still married, and it signifies standing and wanting R someday. I'm not trying to be available when I go out, so to me, it stays on, at least for now. It did occur to me the other day, though, that sometimes I forget to put it back on after excrcise. Sometimes for a day or 2. I has a fleeting thought that this might signify a potential turning point in me. What that is, I don't know yet.
Dave,
That’s so much good news. Take a moment and look back and re-evaluate your position. Look at the progress you are making. Gain strength from that. You are on the right path and becoming self aware, you’re not a mindless work drone for you W.
It was a rough week, not even, and I did so many things I never imagined I'd do and most of them I also really did not want to do. I always trusted W blindly (by the way, her name starts with a W, so writing W comes naturally) and finally I realize that she has to earn that trust back after her betrayal.
... This slowly creates change.
This is key and I have to remind myself of it often. I have to have patience. Things do not change within a matter of days.
I got new air filters for the furnaces and for the indoor air filters. W has many allergies that she suffers from exceptionally hard for about a year now. She got tons of allergy shots that didn't do a thing, but I read that these shots can have side effects that trigger mental issues, such as depression.
You nailed it when you said those techniques in other books are when both parties are committed. When you two are all in for saving the marriage, you both can do things where the other spouse is receptive. This is key to understand, it says you understand you can’t force anything on her or use gimmicks to try and win her back. She genuinely has to want to work it out. I’m not saying to give up on the marriage but use this time wisely to work on you, to figure things out on how you can change for better.
Bad attitudes can rub off on people but so can good ones. Be strong here and show her positivity at all times.
Thanks for pointing this out. The past days my going dark might have been a tad too dark. I immediately adjusted and we joked about my gym visit. Still fuzzy a bit on going dark...mainly because I never did this before. I will figure this out.
Something your W said really struck me and I know it totally went over your head at the time. In one of your posts your wife said, the guy is emotionally intelligent and said you acted like a brick and you said you didn’t know what that meant. Do you still not know? Her saying that is a huge red flag and by your actions and naivity, I think this is where a lot of the fixing needs to be, your emotional control. Gain some insight into this. Figure out what you want to do. It’s like we’re still looking under the hood of this relationship to see why it’s not running the way it should have, running a diag on you. You get to choose where you want to spend time and what to improve on. IMO, for the man it starts with the EQ, his emotional control and well being. Detachment is that, creating boundaries is that, being confident.
Honestly, I still don't know what that means. I mentioned it to my therapist and he said that men generally have low emotional intelligence.
Months back I heard her crying several times. I walked to where she was and put my hands on her shoulders (that was before she ordered me not to touch her). I told her that things will be OK and that she can talk to me if she wants to. She didn't so I did not ask her any more questions.
That was one of the very few times she clearly expressed emotions. Since I know her she never really smiled, even when she was very happy. She rarely complains about anything or says that she is upset or annoyed or happy or delighted or anything. I have an incredibly tough time to gauge what her emotional state is. Come to think, she's like a brick as well and bottles everything up.
I have no idea if this has anything to do with this. I appreciate the advice, but I don't know what EQ or running a diag on me means. I comprehend the words, but not the meaning. I don't know what to do. I understand that this is part of the problem, but I don't understand what the problem is and thus have no idea how to fix it.
Gaining knowledge is going to help you understand things better. Once you do that, you get to decide how you want to feel.
Well, I know how I want to feel....loved, which implies being respected. That will generate happiness. Right now I don't feel love.
It’s okay to feel scared and like you want to throw up. I think this was some of that turning point for me. I had to readjust in thinking maybe I was not going to be able to save my marriage and it made me feel sick to my stomach at first. I think you will keep feeling this at some key points due to the shock and realizations. It’s growing pangs. Allow yourself to feel them and try to understand what it means. It’s very important for you to find the courage and strength right now. Be patient and be kind to yourself and to others. Keep loving, keep learning, keep living.
I learn a lot. And I want to save my marriage. I love my W and I want to leave the past behind, including recent events. There is no point being hung up on what happened when what is happening right now is a heckuva lot better. I don't know how long it will take, but I want to tell myself for the rest of my life that I did everything I could once I knew.
Googled EQ:
What is Emotional Intelligence (EQ)? - Psych Central
1.Self-awareness. The ability to recognize an emotion as it “happens” is the key to your EQ. …
2.Self-regulation. You often have little control over when you experience emotions. You can, …
3.Motivation. To motivate yourself for any achievement requires clear goals and a positive attitude. …
4.Empathy. The ability to recognize how people feel is important to success in your life and career.
From Wiki,
Emotional intelligence (EI) or emotional quotient (EQ) is the capacity of individuals to recognize their own, and other people's emotions, to discriminate between different feelings and label them appropriately, and to use emotional information to guide thinking and behavior.
To me its overcoming emotion and still being rational in the way you respond, being cool headed in a crisis. Still thinking clearly and making sound decisions. Many people don't do this because they're hurt and egocentric, their self preservation kicks into high gear. Fight or Flight. In dealing with the opposite sex, it gets muddled up because you might feel awkward in the moment or not know what your spouse needs.
At work, we value people with high IQ for being smart. They can comprehend the work to get it done, but we also value people with high EQ, because we work as a team, we need team players who put the team first. People need to be aware of personality types like if someone is type A, some ppl don't get along with type A personalities, but someone with a high EQ knows how to coral everyone together for a common goal.
There are books that can help between a couple mentioned around here, talking about the 5 love languages. Have you ever talked to W to know hers and know what she likes or dislikes?
The story about you placing your hands on her shoulder and saying everything will be alright/OK kinda supports what she is referring to. You didn't even know what was bothering her, right? What if she felt guilty for her Affair and hurting you? What if she felt sad she could not be with OM? And instead of you trying to listen or understand her, you bypass all of that and put a lid on it with the "it will be OK"
After that you say she's been a certain way for a very long time, and you have not been able to address it. That is what I am talking about. Seems like she's been very withdrawn and you may not have known what to do.
Validation is important on this site. It puts you on their side because you are understanding, you are listening. There is no arguing against you or saying you don't understand because you are showing her you do. You're getting them to open up, perhaps letting their guard down some. If you are in touch with your emotional side or sometimes people say feminine side, then you know what I mean.
Sometimes its okay to not be alright.
I know... men, we use logic. I like to say I see things in black and white. Like honesty is just that, its there or not there. Things are either present or absent. If a buddy of mine was feeling down, he'd tell me and I would most likely say that's no reason to feel down. That just seems illogical on why something like that could have an affect. My dog died, so what get a new one. know what I mean on that? (I know, sounds a little harsh but that's because there is no emotion there, its through the emotions do we establish the connections to form intimacy.)
men we use logic, we believe in honesty, loyalty, and action.
I'm not saying its your fault. I don't know truthfully what's going on with your W. We may never know. So far I see you as a kindhearted guy who is a softy whose W went looking online. You say you moved far away to be with her right? And she cooks Indian food and this is an guy from India. Is there a cultural difference there? Do you think she is trying to connect to someone who knows her culture and have you tried? How did that go if you did?
Well, when I was talking about looking under the hood of your relationship and running a diag, that was car metaphor talk for trying to find all the reasons why there is a problem of the relationship not running smoothly. Its not caused only because of her warwardness is basically what I was saying. There are other reasons to have made her do what she did. To make it better, you must first identify what contributed to the fall out. if you don't and she does give you a chance, you will be right back here somewhere down the road.
The past days my going dark might have been a tad too dark. I immediately adjusted and we joked about my gym visit. Still fuzzy a bit on going dark...mainly because I never did this before.
In my opinion, going dark is acting as if you fell off the face of the earth. As in 100% no contact. Its very much a Last Resort technique.
Of course, with kids and living together, you cant really GO DARK completely. But I would focus on minimizing contact. And not hanging around her while in your home. Basically, following Sandi's rules as much as you can. Thats about as 'dark' as youll be able to get.
You are right. The past days were absolutely miserable, because what I did and will do scares the crap out of me. I was shocked what responses I got here at first. I don't know what I was expecting, maybe people telling me "awwww, you poor guy, here is how you fix everything", but that is rather naive. I am glad I did not get those responses, because while they would have made me happy for the moment, they would be totally useless in the long run.
I think we come here needing reassurances that we're not crazy, and not the horrible person our WAS makes us out to be. But some of the advice is hard to hear too. I had to take a break for a couple of months because sometimes it felt like I was just getting beat up. Everyone here means well but sometimes we can be a little hard on people because we aren't thinking about how miserable they are.
It also taught me that this is not the time to date or get involved with anyone. I don't have my mind in the right place, it would be irresponsible to put another woman into this mess, and my intentions are different.
Yes that is it exactly. It's not actually that hard to find someone and have it get serious faster then you intend. But it can really distract you from doing the work you need to do on yourself, not necessarily for your W but just to make sure you are better prepared for any future R whether it's with your W, another woman, or even your kids, friends and family.
I disagree with your statement "she is not sick". Yes, she is. Read the many stories of people with depressed/bipolar spouses and they are for the most part a carbon copy of my sitch. Does that excuse and explain everything? No, but I would be unfair to not take that into consideration.
Well given her family history you could be right. Unfortunately you are not in a position to help her, because right now you are the last person she wants help from. So your DB'ing doesn't really change much even if she is having mental problems.
In my opinion, going dark is acting as if you fell off the face of the earth. As in 100% no contact. Its very much a Last Resort technique.
Of course, with kids and living together, you cant really GO DARK completely. But I would focus on minimizing contact. And not hanging around her while in your home. Basically, following Sandi's rules as much as you can. Thats about as 'dark' as youll be able to get.
^^^Yes I agree. A lot of people confuse DB'ing and Sandi's rules as what we mean by "going dark". But going dark is usually reserved for someone dealing with a violent, angry, off-the-rails WAS where anything they do around the WAS is met with seething hatred. The best you can do in that situation is completely remove yourself from the equation. It's more to save the LBS than the M.
You cant go full dark. Go dim. That is what I do. Minimal contact, not hanging out in the same room for very long. Always be busy reading etc.
Thanks for the insightful and helpful posts. I will respond to them soon. Today was another rough day. Met with a lawyer and he explained to me what risk I am exposed to currently and how to minimize it beyond what I already did. I changed the car loan payments to hit my account, same for car insurance. Still have to move my son's cell phone service over, but they sent the emails to my wife's email account. I told her, but other than an "ok" I got nothing.
I have to see when that charge posts and if that service allows for number transfers. Worst case I transfer the number to TracFone for some time and then back to the original service. I doubt I will get any assistance from my wife. By now she ought to have figured out what the heck is going on.
With that I pulled even more money out of the shared account. It now has enough in it to cover her scheduled CC payment. I also pulled a credit report on myself to make sure that she did not open any other accounts in my name. I have no idea what she entered as income to get her second card.
Lawyer also said that I am not legally required to give her any money as long as she lives in the house and has basic needs met. I will give her money and also reimburse her for any household expenses.
For most of the day I was in the mode of calling up the lawyer and telling him to draw up the divorce papers. I have to sleep at least once over this and think. I am aggravated, annoyed, and deeply sad. All this is crap I don't want to do, but I have to protect the family.
Of course, if she moves out and takes the kids with her, I am screwed. With her not having any income the spousal and child support will kill me financially. I'd lose the house and all the equity in it. I can only hope that she is mother enough to not do that so that the kids' lives are not disrupted even more, but that is largely out of my control.
Why the heck is she so ridiculously stupid????? Not that you would know.
Of course, if she moves out and takes the kids with her...
If this is a real concern, speak with your lawyer if there are legal steps you can take to prevent this.
Don’t make any big decisions while you are feeling emotional Dave. Give yourself some time. Deal with the present and spend less time going down the cheeseless tunnel of “what if”. Has she said she is moving out? Does she have the means to do it?
For most of the day I was in the mode of calling up the lawyer and telling him to draw up the divorce papers. I have to sleep at least once over this and think. I am aggravated, annoyed, and deeply sad. All this is crap I don't want to do, but I have to protect the family.
Of course, if she moves out and takes the kids with her, I am screwed. With her not having any income the spousal and child support will kill me financially. I'd lose the house and all the equity in it. I can only hope that she is mother enough to not do that so that the kids' lives are not disrupted even more, but that is largely out of my control.
Why the heck is she so ridiculously stupid????? Not that you would know.
Be careful on being in an emotional state for this. I know you are not ready for this so please back up off the ledge. One minute you're motivated by emotion to do anything for family, and now after talking to lawyer you're motivated behind emotion to protect the family by D, which you know would place her in a very bad financial sitch with the kids, so for her to survive, what do you think you are forcing her to do then?
What is one night's sleep going to do when you've been in this state for many, many months? This process is not an overnight one and it will help you with your emotional control. Please allow yourself much more time.
Consider doing this at least when you've been calm for a while, a long while.
Although your lawyer said you don't have a legal obligation to support W, I think you have some moral one. I do say this loosely like if she is driving a car to get from point A to B and its almost out of gas. Show compassion at all times.
Let it simmer down. Be in control, think on it for a while.
One reason why I am just now speaking to a lawyer after 5 months is because of this very reason. You DO NOT want to start this process and then be on the fence about it. its not a tool you use to get back at W for all the pain and confusion she has caused.
She is in a fog. She doesn't even know what she is doing to some degree.
You said you spoke to lawyer who helped you to minimize risk. Was the actual D a part of that conversation because it looks like it wasn't. I don't see how a lawyer looking out in your best interest to save your marriage is going to say go ahead and D and hope she doesn't take you to the cleaners and hope she will automatically be able to support her and her kids.
She will see this as an attack and her survival instinct will kick in. Let me ask you, do you see her actions as an attack and what is your response? What are you wanting to do to her that you hope she is not going to do to you?
Of course, if she moves out and takes the kids with her...
If this is a real concern, speak with your lawyer if there are legal steps you can take to prevent this.
I discussed this with the lawyer and by NY law there can be joint and sole custody. I have to pay child support if the kids do not live with me. Add to that spousal support and I am toast. Can I prevent her loading the kids up in the car and taking them somewhere I don't know. No, I cannot prevent that. I work outside the home and if she does that I need to get with police I guess. This did not happen, so no point in thinking about it.
Dave, pump the brakes on D. You are in no state of mind to be filing right now. DB is about focusing on yourself and detaching. If she wants a D, let her do the legwork for now. Don't do anything right yet. Wait a while. I am ready for D, but I havent taken action. I won't until I am sure I will feel like this for several months.
Don’t make any big decisions while you are feeling emotional Dave. Give yourself some time. Deal with the present and spend less time going down the cheeseless tunnel of “what if”. Has she said she is moving out? Does she have the means to do it?
That is why I want to sleep over it at least a night. Things always look different the next morning.
I did cancel the shared CC and I did tell her about it before I did it. Technically, I took her off as authorized signer, put a lock on the account, and requested a new card with a new number. Once I have that and activated it I can take the lock back off. I might get into a situation where I need money....trying really hard to avoid that.
I also take her off as beneficiary of any retirement plans and life insurances. If it comes to a divorce I will no longer be legally allowed to make those changes. I put my sons in as primary beneficiaries.
What riled me up a bit was the photos and images that I saw in the shared Amazon Photo folder. Those include screen shots of messages where WW complains about OM being drunk and mean as well as him demanding that she takes her clothes off while he was sitting in public. I saved copies of all those images. It hurt a lot and I have no idea if those will be of use at any point, but it clearly shows that her affair is still ongoing. She made promises to him to support him. I wonder how? I also wonder what she entered as income for her second CC as she essentially has none.
I've done enough for today. Except that I want to read up about Escitalopram (antidepressant) and if Lansoprazole (prescription antiacid) has any impact on the effectiveness of the antidepressant. My father in law used to drink a lot of grapefruit juice which turned out to be an inhibitor for his psych meds....so who knows.
No longer sure if I want to stay married to her. I am a nervous wreck, never was so betrayed in my life, I feel like trowing up, I run a fever...and I just want this nightmare to end. Maybe I need to pray to God....haven't done so before, but what do I know, maybe it helps. I cry myself to sleep now.....
4.Empathy. The ability to recognize how people feel is important to success in your life and career.
That might be the thing she was referring to. I have a hard time picking up non-verbal cues. I do not know if I can learn that. As I mentioned earlier, she rarely said anything and when asked she gave the impression that everything is alright.
To me its overcoming emotion and still being rational in the way you respond, being cool headed in a crisis. Still thinking clearly and making sound decisions. Many people don't do this because they're hurt and egocentric, their self preservation kicks into high gear. Fight or Flight. In dealing with the opposite sex, it gets muddled up because you might feel awkward in the moment or not know what your spouse needs.
Ah, yes....I am more flight than fight, retract and step back rather than get into things. I'm like that all my life.
There are books that can help between a couple mentioned around here, talking about the 5 love languages. Have you ever talked to W to know hers and know what she likes or dislikes?
Those were the books I read first. I liked them minus the religious parts. WW definitely loves it when I do chores and spend quality time. Mine are quality time and touch. And my desires for quality time are low key. I don't need action, all I like is to know that she is here. Same for touch. The hugs in the morning gave me so much power and joy, a few seconds where I'd feel that the world cannot hurt me, that I am safe.
The story about you placing your hands on her shoulder and saying everything will be alright/OK kinda supports what she is referring to. You didn't even know what was bothering her, right? What if she felt guilty for her Affair and hurting you? What if she felt sad she could not be with OM? And instead of you trying to listen or understand her, you bypass all of that and put a lid on it with the "it will be OK"
After that you say she's been a certain way for a very long time, and you have not been able to address it. That is what I am talking about. Seems like she's been very withdrawn and you may not have known what to do.
In those situations I felt that I should not pressure her into telling me. I didn't say "don't tell me', but gave her the option to do so and she didn't want to. I honored that.
Yes, I have no idea what to do. If she does not tell me I have to guess. I don't know how to sense these things. Clearly an area I still have to learn a lot.
Validation is important on this site. It puts you on their side because you are understanding, you are listening. There is no arguing against you or saying you don't understand because you are showing her you do. You're getting them to open up, perhaps letting their guard down some. If you are in touch with your emotional side or sometimes people say feminine side, then you know what I mean.
Sometimes its okay to not be alright.
I know... men, we use logic. I like to say I see things in black and white. Like honesty is just that, its there or not there. Things are either present or absent. If a buddy of mine was feeling down, he'd tell me and I would most likely say that's no reason to feel down. That just seems illogical on why something like that could have an affect. My dog died, so what get a new one. know what I mean on that? (I know, sounds a little harsh but that's because there is no emotion there, its through the emotions do we establish the connections to form intimacy.)
men we use logic, we believe in honesty, loyalty, and action.
I'm not saying its your fault. I don't know truthfully what's going on with your W. We may never know. So far I see you as a kindhearted guy who is a softy whose W went looking online. You say you moved far away to be with her right? And she cooks Indian food and this is an guy from India. Is there a cultural difference there? Do you think she is trying to connect to someone who knows her culture and have you tried? How did that go if you did?
Well, when I was talking about looking under the hood of your relationship and running a diag, that was car metaphor talk for trying to find all the reasons why there is a problem of the relationship not running smoothly. Its not caused only because of her warwardness is basically what I was saying. There are other reasons to have made her do what she did. To make it better, you must first identify what contributed to the fall out. if you don't and she does give you a chance, you will be right back here somewhere down the road.
I understand this now better, thank you. Yes, there are other reasons, many reasons, good and bad. One big thing is that she felt as that I was not there when she needed me. I didn't know and understand that she needed me. I still feel utterly helpless in that regard. I don't know what to do and I feel immensely guilty for it. Especially the way WW put it, like that it was something that every person in the universe can do with ease but not me. I really question if something is significantly wrong with me. I have no clue what it is and what to do.....and that depresses the heck out of me. Not that you can give an answer....but is it that I am unable to love someone?
And what with the times I showed deep emotions? She reprimanded me for it. "Pull yourself together" ...."calm down"...."why are you crying?" Hmmmm....maybe those were the moments where she lacked EQ as well. She made me feel bad for feeling something.
Still scared like crap, sad...and feel like throwing up. And so many questions without answers.
Dave, pump the brakes on D. You are in no state of mind to be filing right now. DB is about focusing on yourself and detaching. If she wants a D, let her do the legwork for now. Don't do anything right yet. Wait a while. I am ready for D, but I havent taken action. I won't until I am sure I will feel like this for several months.
I understand....it's the deep hurt that makes that out of a sudden seem like the great solution. It's not. D is crap, but I have no idea how to get that message to her. I don't think she wants to give up the deep emotional bond to OM, despite reality telling a completely different story.
What I want is feel safe, get a damn hug, and have someone tell me "I love you" and mean it. And I want to cry when I feel like crying. Maybe that is not EQ, or alpha, or whatever....but it's human. But do I really want to cry as much as I do lately? Going to the lawyer was horrible. I had a damn tough time to keep it together while I was there. I sat in the car crying for I don't know how long after I left. All this financial stuff is overwhelming. Taken her off that damn CC just felt so wrong. It's like me telling her that from now on you need to beg me for everything. Is this the way to make it clear to her that right now and for quite some time she just cannot be without me? Is facing economic reality helping with emotional reality?
I guess there is no point in waiting for a decent soul to cross my path who tells me "Sit back, relax, and let me fix this for you."
Sorry folks.....I love to write, can never be concise. Thank you everyone for sticking with me. You have no idea how much that means to me.
You get the message to her by focusing on yourself and showing her that you are perfectly happy, content and able to take care of yourself alone and that you do not need her.
Your detachment is her loss. You focusing on yourself is moving on without her. Remember, you need to make decisions on how to act and with your behavior with the sole purpose of bettering yourself.
Who cares what message she gets or what she thinks? Do what makes you happy. Do what makes your kids happy. What your WW thinks has no bearing or value on what you do now. Her opinions do not matter, how she reacts and feels does not matter.
Of course that doesnt mean that it's ok to be hateful towards her or do things to purposely hurt her or get a rise out of her. You must be indifferent to her. No matter what she says, does, feels or how she reacts, your actions are only based on how they affect you and your kids.
Set yourself a date on when you will evaluate your situation to see if it makes sense for you to file for D. Remember this is a marathon and not a sprint. You will have to be strong and just sit back and focus on yourself for months and maybe even a year or more.
I set my date as March because that's a year from when I know my WW started her A. Just keep up the DB. Push through the emotions generated by her betrayal. It's very hard but you can do it. Recognize the emotions and make sure they do not drive you.
I am still very angry with my WW for what she is doing and how she treats me. But I show her nothing but content with myself. Beyond me constantly asking her to leave me alone, all of my focus is on myself and my kids.
Hi Dave,
I haven’t read through much of your sitch yet, but I did just catch your last few posts about what you are being put through. It’s perfecrly normal to feel those things and to let it out. This is a very painful time in your life and you should react as such.
I caution you as well about making or saying anything out of emotion as it can make your hole that much deeper to dig out of. I am learning the hard way that emotionally charged words can cause undesirable consequences.
Try to take care of yourself the best you can. Vent here. Spew the bile you have held in you. Better to lay it here than out to your loved ones.
Hi Dave,
I haven’t read through much of your sitch yet, but I did just catch your last few posts about what you are being put through. It’s perfecrly normal to feel those things and to let it out. This is a very painful time in your life and you should react as such.
I caution you as well about making or saying anything out of emotion as it can make your hole that much deeper to dig out of. I am learning the hard way that emotionally charged words can cause undesirable consequences.
Try to take care of yourself the best you can. Vent here. Spew the bile you have held in you. Better to lay it here than out to your loved ones.
Thank you. It is the worst time in my life, a lot of hurt. I rather have another kidney stone than go through this any longer. This morning I bit my tongue a few times. I gave my wife a nice coffee container for xmas and it came with a small container. She saw it on the counter and was joking "What should I do with it? Put my loose screws in there?" My first thought was that the container isn't big enough for her loose screws to hold, but I didn't react to it at all. We talked only a few sentences.
I love my wife and the only bad thing I can say about her is being so ridiculously stupid starting an affair with an immature guy who has no worries and no responsibilities while being a mean drunk....and from what I gathered he is wasted a lot. That part hurts me the most. That train wreck of a guy is the better choice? I don't know him personally, so I have no idea how he is when sober. The bits that I came across from their conversations disgusted me because I never treated my wife like that.
Going dark is so damn hard. Cutting her off financially is a safeguard, but also a worry that she will now rack up CC debt. I have yet to run a credit check on her. It's come that far that I lost all trust in her. And what for? Her plan will not work...if she even has a plan. It also will bother me a lot when she has to ask me for everything like food and clothing.
I also don't know how long this going dark needs to last. I don't expect it to be the magic thing that brings change within a week. I also have not figured out how to spend time with the kids and be not home much. S13 is easier, he sometimes joins me for gym, we went to the movies, and he does not mind going shopping with me. S17 is a different story...he got all mad at me for not buying the right spam. He is applying for a job at the drama club they both go to and his resume is about the worst one I have seen. He insists of doing this alone. I told him again that I am involved in a lot of hiring the past years, getting many resumes. I told him that he should hear my advice and then decide if he wants to use it.
Got to get some work done.....still don't understand why WW is so damn stupid and why her therapist doesn't give her a reality check.Facebook is great...someone disagrees, you block them. It's lalaland and that is where WW is living in. I have to wait until she returns back to reality.
Dave,
There are some good things you've been doing but I am afraid of your mental state when doing some of those things. People have talked about this to you and you are responding to some of the posts but I am not sure you are reading and absorbing what you really need to.
You still talk about going dark when people have talked about that to you. I don't think you have fully read Sandi's WW posts either because that would have clued you in to much of what the EQ talk was all about. Forget EQ, love language and all that. Read all of Sandis posts and see that as a man you need to gain back RESPECT from your WW. To do that, you must first cut out the crying in front of her. Do that alone. Noone is saying you cant cry, but just not in front of her. Control your emotions. You're W has told you how she sees you regarding your emotions, its not attractive to them.
You're confused and making decisions that could have a far worse impact.
Good moves, seeing a counselor, checking into meds, coming here, seeing a lawyer, IMO the beneficiary change was a good move for your sons. Reading and learning. taking responsibility of protecting yourself financially.
Needs work: your emotional state and understanding what the sitch calls for from you. if you do not have the mental strength now, its okay. You can build that as you go and grow. Be careful about doing things out of anger and to teach your W a lesson.
When you take an action can you predict what that will do? You cutting your wife off will cause her to run up the CC bill. Does this impact you overall? if it does, then you need to play smart.
It'll bother you if your wife asks you for food and clothes? What do you mean? I have mentioned you have a moral responsibility to your W if she has no money. it feels like you are doing alllll this to punish her and you are ignoring what people are telling you here.
You're buying the food right? She wont need money for food then unless she is buying other stuff that you aren't. Money for clothes? Doesn't sound unreasonable if she needs essentials, women products, deodorants, new garments... nothing over the top or extravagant.
I think you're hurt and using whatever you find as a means to get back to your W to hurt her to make her see you are the better choice. It wont work that way. I'm afraid you have a lot of work to do to become emotionally stable.
I know if I was in your shoes I wouldn't like to hear that and I'm sorry for feeling like I need to express that to you but you are going to make things worse down the line if you don't stop letting your emotions get the best of you.
Her therapist is going to make her feel good about herself so if she believes this other guy is the answer, then her therapist will help support that. Don't you want to be happy? Isn't your therapist trying to help you to become happy? Same goes for her.
As for your S17, sorry to hear its more difficult, I think that comes with the age too. I also didn't know there was more than one type of spam. fried up spam sounds good.
I love my wife and the only bad thing I can say about her is being so ridiculously stupid starting an affair with an immature guy who has no worries and no responsibilities while being a mean drunk....and from what I gathered he is wasted a lot. That part hurts me the most. That train wreck of a guy is the better choice? I don't know him personally, so I have no idea how he is when sober. The bits that I came across from their conversations disgusted me because I never treated my wife like that.
The "value" of this guy isnt a reflection on you. Read up on "Affair Down".
Honestly, the guy is going after a married woman. It's pretty clear he doesnt have much moral character from the outset.
Cutting her off financially is a safeguard, but also a worry that she will now rack up CC debt. I have yet to run a credit check on her. It's come that far that I lost all trust in her. And what for? Her plan will not work...if she even has a plan. It also will bother me a lot when she has to ask me for everything like food and clothing.
It isnt your job to 'save' her. She fired you from that job. What else are you doing to protect yourself and your kids from her cc debt?
I also don't know how long this going dark needs to last. I don't expect it to be the magic thing that brings change within a week.
Why do you think we are recommending to go dark? No, probably nothing is going to change within a week. Maybe not for several months. If ever.
The point is twofold.
1) It relieves the pressure on her of you 'being there'. If gives her the freedom she is asking for without needing to see your face and hear your voice and answer your texts all the time.
2) It gives you the freedom to start to detach from her and better control your emotions. It gives you the line you need to go out and GAL and redefine who you are. If you are always getting your teeth knocked in by her meanness or disgust or whatever, how are you going to find your PMA and what you need to improve yourself.
That said, going dark wont have any meaning if you dont use this time to improve. She isnt going to come back to be in the same marriage. How would it be different next time? Now is the time for you to figure that out. How will YOU be different?
I also have not figured out how to spend time with the kids and be not home much. S13 is easier, he sometimes joins me for gym, we went to the movies, and he does not mind going shopping with me. S17 is a different story...he got all mad at me for not buying the right spam. He is applying for a job at the drama club they both go to and his resume is about the worst one I have seen. He insists of doing this alone. I told him again that I am involved in a lot of hiring the past years, getting many resumes. I told him that he should hear my advice and then decide if he wants to use it.
Im not sure theres an easy answer. I dont have a lot of experience with teenagers (yet).
I do know that you need to find some GAL outside of kids also.
What are you doing for you outside of the home? What are you doing outside of your "comfort zone"?
Got to get some work done.....still don't understand why WW is so damn stupid and why her therapist doesn't give her a reality check.Facebook is great...someone disagrees, you block them. It's lalaland and that is where WW is living in. I have to wait until she returns back to reality.
Youre right that she is in lalaland. BUT, it isnt like she will 'snap out of it' and return to have the exact same marriage as you had before. There is a reason she WENT to lalaland. She didnt just wake up there. So like I said above, what will be different next time?
And I noticed that you didnt answer my question before. Do you feel like she has any fear of you dumping her?
Of course, if she moves out and takes the kids with her...
If this is a real concern, speak with your lawyer if there are legal steps you can take to prevent this.
I discussed this with the lawyer and by NY law there can be joint and sole custody. I have to pay child support if the kids do not live with me. Add to that spousal support and I am toast. Can I prevent her loading the kids up in the car and taking them somewhere I don't know. No, I cannot prevent that. I work outside the home and if she does that I need to get with police I guess. This did not happen, so no point in thinking about it.
Ok, how would you not get at least half custody? Is this a New York thing?
The more times you get super upset, the more you will begin to realize that these emotions come and go. You feel bad, then it fades. Use that to your advantage.
You need to get your focus off of her. It's hard to do. You can't control anything she is doing, so please don't waste any more time or headspace on her. It's only hurting you. So your goal is to catch yourself thinking about her, and then take control of that by getting up and running, or going out to a coffee shop, or calling a friend, or going to gym, etc.
And please don't wait for her to return to reality. Go take action to make your life better and minimize your interactions with her so she can't hurt you as much.
Read up on "Affair Down".
Great Google results on this. Also it's quite objective and cruel.
Dave,
There are some good things you've been doing but I am afraid of your mental state when doing some of those things. People have talked about this to you and you are responding to some of the posts but I am not sure you are reading and absorbing what you really need to.
There is just so much of information and action needed right now. Plus a full time job and essentially running the household because WW doesn't do much. I go at a speed that is not sustainable for me, but I got a lot of the tasks done.
You still talk about going dark when people have talked about that to you. I don't think you have fully read Sandi's WW posts either because that would have clued you in to much of what the EQ talk was all about. Forget EQ, love language and all that. Read all of Sandis posts and see that as a man you need to gain back RESPECT from your WW. To do that, you must first cut out the crying in front of her. Do that alone. Noone is saying you cant cry, but just not in front of her. Control your emotions. You're W has told you how she sees you regarding your emotions, its not attractive to them.
I will reread the posts. One issue is that I have a therapist, this forum, a self-help group, and the lawyer telling me stuff. Even within this thread I found some things confusing (such as no communication vs still talk to her when addressed to not come across as a jerk). Add to that the useless advice from clueless people to "kick her out" or stuff like that.
I have a rough time understanding what "going dark" means in practice. Yes, there are the posts, but the situations I encounter are not addressed there. For example, in the morning I make coffee and it is enough for both of us. While I drink coffee I set at the kitchen table while she is somewhere else, but at times comes to the kitchen to get more coffee. It is also a rather small place, so sitting somewhere else is not really an option.
She keeps sending me FB messages and I don't know if I should read them, but not respond. Read them with delay, or read and respond as in she is addressing me and ignoring her would be rude. I do not send her messages or texts or anything, not even start a conversation.
Further, making myself sparse at home is difficult in upstate NY where winter weather will put things to a standstill. Last thing I need is a car accident.
I cried in front of her when she told me the news and then a few times after. I haven't done this in months. This was not a recent event. I may not have made that clear.
You're confused and making decisions that could have a far worse impact.
Good moves, seeing a counselor, checking into meds, coming here, seeing a lawyer, IMO the beneficiary change was a good move for your sons. Reading and learning. taking responsibility of protecting yourself financially.
Needs work: your emotional state and understanding what the sitch calls for from you. if you do not have the mental strength now, its okay. You can build that as you go and grow. Be careful about doing things out of anger and to teach your W a lesson.
The financial changes are not out of anger and I don't want to teach her a lesson. Essentially nothing changed and she still has access to funds in the shared account. I did not pick it clean. That she might take it as me wanting to teacher a lesson is my concern, but I cannot control that. I am not angry. If anything I am deeply saddened that I lost her and hurt by the total rejection. So far nobody could give me practical advice on how to cope with this.
When you take an action can you predict what that will do? You cutting your wife off will cause her to run up the CC bill. Does this impact you overall? if it does, then you need to play smart.
There will be always money in the shared account for her to spend, but not my whole paycheck or the tax return.
I really appreciate your advice, but you write "need to play smart" and then leave me hanging. What is in your opinion a smart move to protect me and my sons financially without upsetting WW even more? That is what I mean with practical advice. Buzz words like "play smart", "EQ", "go dark", "self diag" have little meaning to someone who does not know what that is and how to apply it. This is not a complaint in any way, I only want to explain what my problem with understanding your advice is.
It'll bother you if your wife asks you for food and clothes? What do you mean? I have mentioned you have a moral responsibility to your W if she has no money. it feels like you are doing alllll this to punish her and you are ignoring what people are telling you here.
I have misstated it. She will have money, right now she has around 500$ she can get her hands on and I will provide at least that each month. It will not support her current spending level which we just cannot afford.
You're buying the food right? She wont need money for food then unless she is buying other stuff that you aren't. Money for clothes? Doesn't sound unreasonable if she needs essentials, women products, deodorants, new garments... nothing over the top or extravagant.
Yes, I do grocery shopping and meal planning, but then she decides that she wants to cook Indian food and goes to the Asian market to drop 30$ on ingredients. I think she does that mainly to impress OM. I do not know if she does it to piss me off.
We also have an overabundance at food in the house. It is WW's reaction to her childhood where she had to go at times for months without food at home because both parents were in mental hospitals. She was dependent on the good will of relatives and neighbors.
I think you're hurt and using whatever you find as a means to get back to your W to hurt her to make her see you are the better choice. It wont work that way. I'm afraid you have a lot of work to do to become emotionally stable.
I do not want to hurt her. The past months I did everything for her, but it didn't do anything. I now understand that it was because she doesn't want that attention from me. So no matter how nice I am, it won't do anything.
Yes, there is a lot of work to do and there will be missteps. None of this ever crossed my mind all my life. Now I have to deal with it and for the most part wing it.
I know if I was in your shoes I wouldn't like to hear that and I'm sorry for feeling like I need to express that to you but you are going to make things worse down the line if you don't stop letting your emotions get the best of you.
What upsets me a bit is that several people tell me "you are doing it wrong", but fail to detail what the better plan of action is. The main reason I am here is because I am utterly helpless and have no clue what to do. Of the things I did the past days, I have no clue what the reaction is. It's like riding a roller coaster for the first time in your life, you have no idea what to expect.
I don't want to come across as thankless. I really truly appreciate you all huddling around me to help. I bet you have better things to do in life. I am learning, so bear with me. I will see that I ask more questions rather than make statements, seems that will get me closer to where I need to be.
Her therapist is going to make her feel good about herself so if she believes this other guy is the answer, then her therapist will help support that. Don't you want to be happy? Isn't your therapist trying to help you to become happy? Same goes for her.
Others tell me that her therapist will give her a reality check. I doubt it. I think you are more on the money with him wanting to make her feel happy by endorsing her kinda reckless behavior...and I mean that mostly in regards to our kids. What example does she set for them? You have a relationship crisis and the best thing is to just hook up with someone else? Yes, I had the same thoughts a while back, but they are wrong.
As for your S17, sorry to hear its more difficult, I think that comes with the age too. I also didn't know there was more than one type of spam. fried up spam sounds good.
He said to get the spam from a specific store and that is what I did. It wasn't the Spam brand....now I know, won't happen again.
Adam04....on my way back home from work and all night I could not get one thing out of my head that you wrote. "I'm afraid you have a lot of work to do to become emotionally stable"
You are right...and I want to apologize if I came across as harsh and thankless. I am not emotionally stable. Otherwise I would not be sitting in my car at a red light and start crying.
All this is just a lot to go through, a lot of things to read and process and learn and do and think about. Not one thing at a time, but everything at once on top of working to keep the lights on and keeping home somewhat healthy to live in.
I realize it now. Thinking back the past days....I was picking pointless fights at work. I constantly are on edge about to fall off. I don't know how I even make it through all this.
I need time, it's a long journey, and Rome wasn't built in a day. Maybe it is also that I put to much pressure on myself. Do all this, be super dad, and then find the time to "take care of myself".I will take care of myself tonight and work on my stamps.I got to slow down.
Read up on "Affair Down".
Great Google results on this. Also it's quite objective and cruel.
Yes, cruel...at least what I read so far. Puts things into perspective, but makes me feel even more miserable and helpless....as if I have no chance..... ever. And it kinda makes me feel as if all is my fault, although nothing that I read so far states that.
Ok, how would you not get at least half custody? Is this a New York thing?
The more times you get super upset, the more you will begin to realize that these emotions come and go. You feel bad, then it fades. Use that to your advantage.
You need to get your focus off of her. It's hard to do. You can't control anything she is doing, so please don't waste any more time or headspace on her. It's only hurting you. So your goal is to catch yourself thinking about her, and then take control of that by getting up and running, or going out to a coffee shop, or calling a friend, or going to gym, etc.
And please don't wait for her to return to reality. Go take action to make your life better and minimize your interactions with her so she can't hurt you as much.
I will have half custody....which doesn't do me any good when I have no clue where they went. I don't think my sons would put up with that, so why even worry about it now. None of this happened....something I have to keep telling me.
(((Dave))) Hang in there. I promise... it DOES get easier. I was a basket case when all this started. It took me about two and a half months to even start to think straight. I have finally gotten to a place where I can be present with whatever I am doing and not consumed with thoughts of my marriage and my spouse. It is a slow process and I know there are still going to be sad days ahead but they have, at least, become bearable. Go easy on yourself. Don’t make any big decisions other than to do what you have to do to protect yourself financially. Use this board like your own personal journal. Read other people’s threads. You will see that you are not alone. Try to get some exercise and a decent amount of sleep. If you have to go on an antidepressant / anti anxiety medication for awhile, do it. I did and I think it has helped. Get out of your house. Spend some time in nature. Volunteer. Let your W walk her path. You just focus on healing yourself and becoming the best person you can be. Have faith that you will get through this. I know it is hard to believe that right now but you WILL. (((HUGS)))
Hi Dave,
I haven’t read through much of your sitch yet, but I did just catch your last few posts about what you are being put through. It’s perfecrly normal to feel those things and to let it out. This is a very painful time in your life and you should react as such.
I caution you as well about making or saying anything out of emotion as it can make your hole that much deeper to dig out of. I am learning the hard way that emotionally charged words can cause undesirable consequences.
Try to take care of yourself the best you can. Vent here. Spew the bile you have held in you. Better to lay it here than out to your loved ones.
Limiting interactions with WW to a bare minimum helps. It is odd, but sometimes I think I got addicted to the pain. As if I want to feel the hurt....it is because I don't get to feel much else. I'm numb and feeling pain is better than feeling nothing.
Limiting interactions prevents saying anything bad.
I do notice that WW retreats far more now. And she started cooking all kinds of things.And she wants to join a junior manager program at a local hotel. This is absolutely stunning because she always outright refused to do anything that had to do with management....too peopely. I so wish she gets a job, not because of the money, but that will force her to shape up and take responsibility for something. Doing Facebook all day and getting hammered is not a fulfilling life, so matter how awesome the lover is.
Change is in the air at my work as well....might become team lead / QA manager and could end up with 9 direct reports. I have no idea how to be a manager, but I can do it. We have a great bunch at work, so it will be a good transition....if it happens.
I grew closer to a coworker, he recommended the therapist to me. And I tell my coworker a lot of things. Today he told me that he is impressed that I still stand tall in this crisis. I am not so sure about that, but it felt good to hear it.
My boss gave me advice and material about divorce. He got a divorce 3.5 years ago and got remarried. He moved on and is happy, he says his ex is miserable and full of regret.
But that's about it what I have as someone who could be counted as a friend. Well, I have you guys and the folks on the FB self-help group....and a teacher from Long Island who I talk to every day. She has a heart of gold, but she is not interested in me beyond friendship. I think it is that she does not want to get involved with someone. She has schizophrenia, drinks a lot, refuses treatment, and two weeks ago asked me about buying a gun. I kept talking to her on that Monday morning, contacted the suicide prevention hotline for advice, and eventually she wanted to go. I didn't care that I went to work two hours late and missed meetings. That was more important to me. She helped me through many hard hours and I am forever thankful for that.
I have no idea why I tell you this, but something tells me that I need to keep this written down here.
Dave,
you clarified yourself quite a bit and thank you for that.
There is just so much of information and action needed right now. Plus a full time job and essentially running the household because WW doesn't do much. I go at a speed that is not sustainable for me, but I got a lot of the tasks done.
Take a breather. Go back to the posters who have questions for you. In answering them, you might gain insight. Also, you should not be doing your W share of the work around the house.
What kind of action do you think is needed? You have time. Pace yourself.
I will reread the posts. One issue is that I have a therapist, this forum, a self-help group, and the lawyer telling me stuff. Even within this thread I found some things confusing (such as no communication vs still talk to her when addressed to not come across as a jerk). Add to that the useless advice from clueless people to "kick her out" or stuff like that.
I can see where other sites or people may provide conflicting idea with whats here. You have to pick your poison and go with it. What resonates with you?
This is not all contradictory of each other: no initiating talks, especially Relationship talks VS talking to her when addressed, and not coming across as a jerk. What part of that are you having a problem with?
Don't pursue, don't try to talk to her first and don't pressure her. If she says something to you, respond and be nice. Don't use the conversation as a chance to see if you two will work it out, that's what it means. Some of this you will get over time the more you ask questions about the process. Feel free to get clarification on anything before trying to implement it.
Also, I wouldn't say kicking her out is useless info. Maybe its blunt and a softer approach can be found here.
She keeps sending me FB messages and I don't know if I should read them, but not respond. Read them with delay, or read and respond as in she is addressing me and ignoring her would be rude. I do not send her messages or texts or anything, not even start a conversation.
Why are you checking her FB? Stop all that social media with her.
Advice I've seen here is if you do not need to answer a question, then you don't need to respond. If its a question that isn't an emergency, then do so whenever you want, but don't appear like you're an eager puppy waiting for the next crumb she gives you. That make sense?
I really wouldn't put anything out on social media. When I get home, I throw my phone in the drawer and don't use any social media apps. in the daytime when I'm at work, I have hardly ever called W at work to chitchat unless we have an emergency about our kids. I can count the number of times that's happened. Maybe that's my fault as she appears to be more of this new aged woman needing likes, pokes, hahas on the text, but I am not. Call me old fashioned.
I cried in front of her when she told me the news and then a few times after. I haven't done this in months. This was not a recent event. I may not have made that clear.
Ah, okay. Thanks for clarifying because after 7months I know the pain is still there. No one is saying not to cry, just not in front of her. You want to show emotional strength and not break down in front of her.
If anything I am deeply saddened that I lost her and hurt by the total rejection. So far nobody could give me practical advice on how to cope with this.
You will see people saying the only way is through it. that's the way you cope, you go through it. You don't try to dodge or go around it or fluff it with something else. You ignore it, it will be there waiting for you. You try to run from it, it will be right behind you. You just deal with it the best way you know how. Some people will be better than others at it. Others will need a lot more time to process. Sometimes its not all about thinking or feeling too much. Just be in the moment, knowing you will be okay. Did you read the sticky you will not die? When you believe you will be okay, slowly that burden lifts. life is somewhat a little more bearable. The pain doesn't ever go away I don't think. Many of us are trying to deal with the triggers. I think you may know the answer but you don't want to face it. You are looking for the magic bullet and there is not one. Sorry.
I really appreciate your advice, but you write "need to play smart" and then leave me hanging. What is in your opinion a smart move to protect me and my sons financially without upsetting WW even more? That is what I mean with practical advice..
Some of the advice is generally speaking. People can make suggestions but they cant tell you what to do. You have to decide, like you chose to go dark without fully understanding it. That was a choice. If you don't understand something and you have the option to find out more about, why didn't you do that first before acting?
Some advice is more direct when the scenario calls for it. Like when you said you were thinking about calling attorney to start the papers, we all knew that was a bad idea. We told you to stop and the reason why. Other times you have to do what's right for you. Even though we "told" you to stop(or advised you), it is ultimately your choice. The thing about multiple sources of info, pick something that resonates with you and go by that. Don't try to pick something you think will win your marriage back because that wont work.
My playing smart comment was more directed to a post of yours like this:
Going dark is so damn hard. Cutting her off financially is a safeguard, but also a worry that she will now rack up CC debt.
If you are concerned about her racking up CC debt, and this is right after you said you were cutting her off financially, then why cut her off financially? That was my whole point, but you clarified she still has access to the joint account where you have some money in it.
look, you cant 100% protect yourself if your W still has a CC. My lawyer told me that my W debt are my own debts too unless we file for D then they will halt any more of that behavior. This is relating to the reason why you changed your beneficiaries now, because later you cant make those changes. You're W wont be able to go out and spend like crazy. You may however be able to use what she purchases stuff on her CC like for BF overseas and then tell your lawyer you want W responsible for those expenditures that have nothing to do with the family. Thinking like that may be how you want to protect your family. Communicate that early with the lawyer to make sure all of it gets captured and documented during discovery. You most likely can email your lawyer if this is feasible to do so you can have some comfort and peace of mind.
Buzz words like "play smart", "EQ", "go dark", "self diag" have little meaning to someone who does not know what that is and how to apply it.
play smart was explained just now, hope you got it. EQ was part of the emotional intelligence discussion because your W mentioned the other guy had it. I was trying to open you up to that emotional side of it, but you admitted you have problems with this, understanding the emotional piece. I still think this is an area you can greatly improve in but you may need your counselor for that one. Maybe reading a book about it might help. I cant tell you what will fix you if that's what you need. You will need to make some effort to go out there and look for the answer too if it intrigues you enough. GO dark, now this one, you implemented before you fully understood? That's on you. Next time you are unsure of something, run it by here first(just like when you said you were wanting your lawyer to draw them papers up, phew) self diag, not sure about this one. When I made that comment I was saying we were still looking under the hood of the car running a diag(diagnostic to find out what the issues were) its not a buzzword here. Just a poorly used attempt at a metaphor causing confusion, sorry bout that.
Originally Posted by Adam04
I know if I was in your shoes I wouldn't like to hear that and I'm sorry for feeling like I need to express that to you but you are going to make things worse down the line if you don't stop letting your emotions get the best of you.
What upsets me a bit is that several people tell me "you are doing it wrong", but fail to detail what the better plan of action is.
you've mentioned you can't connect with your wife emotionally. you've said you 've been shy and awkward and didn't think you would ever marry. this says something about how you see you self worth. You've allowed W to disrespect you. I don't know if you purposely don't answer other peoples questions or address some of your root causes for issues. I think one of them is your self esteem. I think because you may have low self esteem you are allowing WW to get her way and many things is an attack on you. someone is being too mean to you, your wife has no EQ and is mean to you, you make excuses for some of the other stuff like the BF on Fb and your son getting angry at you for buying spam at the wrong store? what the hell....
I don't want to sound cruel, but I hope you aren't victimizing yourself. We're saying to you to slow down and don't let your emotions control or guide your actions and you interpret that as we are saying you are doing it wrong. If using your emotions is wrong, what is the right way then? Some of that responsibility lies on your shoulders. You've said " guess you cant wait around for someone to come and fix this." that responsibility isnt for someone else, its for you and you're looking for a white knight. People here can give you advice and guidance but its up to you. Choices are hard. This is hard for many of us here.
(((Dave))) Hang in there. I promise... it DOES get easier. I was a basket case when all this started. It took me about two and a half months to even start to think straight. I have finally gotten to a place where I can be present with whatever I am doing and not consumed with thoughts of my marriage and my spouse. It is a slow process and I know there are still going to be sad days ahead but they have, at least, become bearable. Go easy on yourself. Don’t make any big decisions other than to do what you have to do to protect yourself financially. Use this board like your own personal journal. Read other people’s threads. You will see that you are not alone. Try to get some exercise and a decent amount of sleep. If you have to go on an antidepressant / anti anxiety medication for awhile, do it. I did and I think it has helped. Get out of your house. Spend some time in nature. Volunteer. Let your W walk her path. You just focus on healing yourself and becoming the best person you can be. Have faith that you will get through this. I know it is hard to believe that right now but you WILL. (((HUGS)))
I will read your post many more times. This is one of the nicest things someone wrote to me in a long time. And thanks for the hugs, I really need it right now.
I did as much as I can to secure my assets. The only sure way to be shielded entirely is to file for divorce....and I won't do this now.
Read up on "Affair Down".
Great Google results on this. Also it's quite objective and cruel.
Yes, cruel...at least what I read so far. Puts things into perspective, but makes me feel even more miserable and helpless....as if I have no chance..... ever. And it kinda makes me feel as if all is my fault, although nothing that I read so far states that.
This line of thinking has to stop. Up in New York it's all feminism and equality and show your emotions and I think this has rubbed off on you. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with being yourself but I think outside influences play a role on us all. Did you know that feminists are more attracted to sexist men, statistically? All this crying and worrying about her reaction has go to stop. Stomp it out.
Let go of the stuff you can't control.
Focus that energy on what you can control.
You have freedom now. Go to the bar. Go play golf. Hang out with friends. Talk trash to your buddies. Don't you remember being single and doing whatever you wanted? I had a blast. I have so many stories to tell people. Go do that again! Your kids are old enough that you don't need to be around them constantly.
In regards to the equality statement I want to say that I believe in equal rights under the law, but I don't believe that all people are equal because all people are different, make different choices, and experience different consequences based on those choices.
There's not much action needed or understand needed right now. I'd focus on the first two LRT rules for now:
1. Stop pursuing.
2. Get a Life.
Dave,
There is just so much of information and action needed right now. Plus a full time job and essentially running the household because WW doesn't do much. I go at a speed that is not sustainable for me, but I got a lot of the tasks done.
Take a breather. Go back to the posters who have questions for you. In answering them, you might gain insight. Also, you should not be doing your W share of the work around the house.
What kind of action do you think is needed? You have time. Pace yourself.
I've come to the same conclusion. Financial stuff is all set for now, I will keep a good chunk of money in the shared account, and I will set things up so that I can deposit money into my sons' accounts (they have their own accounts now). That is not the purpose of dowsing them with money to bring them on my side, but purely as safeguard for the time I am away in April. Esp S17 has shown that he is very capable to run the show here, he did that for a good part when WW was in India and I was a mental train wreck.I regret that now, because I asked too much of my kids at that time.
I can see where other sites or people may provide conflicting idea with whats here. You have to pick your poison and go with it. What resonates with you?
Advice and suggestions that do not generate guilt. I know that it is hard to judge for others what makes me feel guilty. I am quick to blame myself for everything.....hmmm, yea, that is the lack of self esteem again. Clearly an area where I have a lot of work to do.
This is not all contradictory of each other: no initiating talks, especially Relationship talks VS talking to her when addressed, and not coming across as a jerk. What part of that are you having a problem with?
I have/had a problem with the type and level of interactions. This morning I got a text message to our home phone (Google Voice) reminding WW of her therapy appt. I passed that on to her without further comment. I don't know if this is the same as initiating or if that falls under not being a jerk. Now that I wrote this and after getting a cup of coffee....WW has the access info to Google Voice and she should be quite capable to keep track of the one appointment she has. While passing it on was nice I think, it was not necessary. Going forward I won't pass it on.
Making coffee in the morning...I make enough for both of us, but that's it. I no longer get a cup for her and put the creamer in. She thanks me for making coffee and I respond with you're welcome of the like and that's it.
S13's progress in math. He uses an online course and I get progress reports every other week. I forwarded the first one to WW without further comment. She still admins the home schooling and writes the quarterly reports. Then again....I sent her the login info to the parent portal weeks ago when I signed up for the course. If she really needs that info she can get it herself. I guess I answered that question...no need to pass it on.
Don't pursue, don't try to talk to her first and don't pressure her. If she says something to you, respond and be nice. Don't use the conversation as a chance to see if you two will work it out, that's what it means. Some of this you will get over time the more you ask questions about the process. Feel free to get clarification on anything before trying to implement it.
I will heed that advice. When I wrote the first post it immediately received half a dozen responses with a ton of links to other threads. That suggested to me a need of urgency....but that may just have been purely in my mind. The unexpected amount of responses is also why I didn't (yet) responded to all of them...plus lack of time and the rather clunky way of responding to sections in posts.
I no longer pursue as in doing nice things for her, commenting on her looks, going overboard over how good her food is (more by accident I quoted my late uncle last time saying that best about dinner is getting seconds). But I wonder if I should eat the food she cooks? Until I am clear on how to respond to that I will go eat it, would be rude and wasteful to ignore it and eat a sandwich instead. What helps a lot is that S17 preps his own meals since he does not like anything that we make. S13 eats anything and has low standards as far as food, means he is perfectly fine with a can of cold pasta (yuck!) or a bowl of canned soup. I will spend mental time on this issue later. At some point I have to figure out how to put dinner on the table while working full time and it not being just frozen junk.
Also, I wouldn't say kicking her out is useless info. Maybe its blunt and a softer approach can be found here.
It is useless because it ignores the fact that WW owns half the house. I legally cannot kick her out. Aside from that, it would be morally wrong because she has no income and no place to go. Kicking her out also does not solve any of the issues.
She keeps sending me FB messages and I don't know if I should read them, but not respond. Read them with delay, or read and respond as in she is addressing me and ignoring her would be rude. I do not send her messages or texts or anything, not even start a conversation.
Why are you checking her FB? Stop all that social media with her.
I essentially did this since last Wednesday. Before then we would spend significant amount of time sending each other memes and jokes and talk about stuff that had nothing to do with our marriage/issues. I liked it a lot because it was like talking to a good friend. After I stopped responding she kept sending funny cat pics (a test balloon), but I did not respond to that.
At times I am tempted to look at her FB profile, but there is no rational reason for that. This urge is something I need to discuss with the therapist because I need help to end this addiction to pain. I feel numb otherwise and pain is at least one feeling. My emotional needs are entirely unmet for a long time and I don't know how to satisfy them.
Advice I've seen here is if you do not need to answer a question, then you don't need to respond. If its a question that isn't an emergency, then do so whenever you want, but don't appear like you're an eager puppy waiting for the next crumb she gives you. That make sense?
Yes...and as mentioned before, I no longer do that.
I really wouldn't put anything out on social media. When I get home, I throw my phone in the drawer and don't use any social media apps. in the daytime when I'm at work, I have hardly ever called W at work to chitchat unless we have an emergency about our kids. I can count the number of times that's happened. Maybe that's my fault as she appears to be more of this new aged woman needing likes, pokes, hahas on the text, but I am not. Call me old fashioned.
I rarely post anything public and I have to rethink what I post privately as well. I have no idea which channels the posts take.It comes from the urge to just have to tell someone and without someone at home it goes to random strangers on the Internet. I have to train myself to seek other avenues. I may get the same need met by writing myself and email and throwing it away before sending it. This will be an area I will struggle with a lot. I do not have anyone that I can talk to 1:1 in person in a personal and relaxed setting. I talk a lot to a coworker, but there are limits at work.
If anything I am deeply saddened that I lost her and hurt by the total rejection. So far nobody could give me practical advice on how to cope with this.
You will see people saying the only way is through it. that's the way you cope, you go through it. You don't try to dodge or go around it or fluff it with something else. You ignore it, it will be there waiting for you. You try to run from it, it will be right behind you. You just deal with it the best way you know how. Some people will be better than others at it. Others will need a lot more time to process. Sometimes its not all about thinking or feeling too much. Just be in the moment, knowing you will be okay. Did you read the sticky you will not die? When you believe you will be okay, slowly that burden lifts. life is somewhat a little more bearable. The pain doesn't ever go away I don't think. Many of us are trying to deal with the triggers. I think you may know the answer but you don't want to face it. You are looking for the magic bullet and there is not one. Sorry.
I will try. I do not know what the answer is. I do not know where this all ends up. I know what I want it to end like, but I don't think there is any way I can nudge the ship in that direction. It is really discouraging to be so powerless.
I won't die and with the opportunities I may get at work I have something to focus on instead.
Some of the advice is generally speaking. People can make suggestions but they cant tell you what to do. You have to decide, like you chose to go dark without fully understanding it. That was a choice. If you don't understand something and you have the option to find out more about, why didn't you do that first before acting?
As mentioned above, the many posts triggered a sense of urgency. I read the thread about going dark and what stuck in my mind most was to end interaction and conversation. I overdid this the first two days by ignoring WW even when she addressed me. There was one night where S13 and WW were talking and S13 asked me why I don't want to talk to them. I didn't respond to that because it isn't that I don't want to talk to him, but to her. Any advice on how to handle such a situation better? I feel bad that I blew off S13 although he was not the target of this action.
Some advice is more direct when the scenario calls for it. Like when you said you were thinking about calling attorney to start the papers, we all knew that was a bad idea. We told you to stop and the reason why. Other times you have to do what's right for you. Even though we "told" you to stop(or advised you), it is ultimately your choice. The thing about multiple sources of info, pick something that resonates with you and go by that. Don't try to pick something you think will win your marriage back because that wont work.
I had a bunch of folks at different places tell me take care of finances, protect your assets, shield yourself from her spending money, and so forth. I think I am at a point now where I have much bigger control over finances.
My appointment with the lawyer was for information only. I wanted to know what I need to do, how a divorce process works, if a settlement agreement with WW waving spousal support will hold up in court, and a ton of other questions. Even as far back as when I got the first therapy sessions back in early August I was advised to take control over all finances. Since then it was always the first piece of advice even when I just needed a hug and someone to tell me that the world isn't ending.
Full legal and financial separation is only possible with filing divorce papers. NY does not have anything else based on what the lawyer told me. I think much differently about it today than on Monday. The lawyer's interests may also not have been entirely my interests. He only stands to make money when there is a divorce. That said, I have now a much better understanding, I have a legal contact established, but I will NOT file papers.
I stated it early on, I want to save my marriage, I do not want a divorce. I understand that I have no control over what WW does, but a lot of control over what I do if I make rational decisions.
My playing smart comment was more directed to a post of yours like this:
Going dark is so damn hard. Cutting her off financially is a safeguard, but also a worry that she will now rack up CC debt.
If you are concerned about her racking up CC debt, and this is right after you said you were cutting her off financially, then why cut her off financially? That was my whole point, but you clarified she still has access to the joint account where you have some money in it.
Yes, was a poor choice of words on my end. I still want and will have her access to money, but not all of it.
look, you cant 100% protect yourself if your W still has a CC. My lawyer told me that my W debt are my own debts too unless we file for D then they will halt any more of that behavior. This is relating to the reason why you changed your beneficiaries now, because later you cant make those changes. You're W wont be able to go out and spend like crazy. You may however be able to use what she purchases stuff on her CC like for BF overseas and then tell your lawyer you want W responsible for those expenditures that have nothing to do with the family. Thinking like that may be how you want to protect your family. Communicate that early with the lawyer to make sure all of it gets captured and documented during discovery. You most likely can email your lawyer if this is feasible to do so you can have some comfort and peace of mind.
That is a position I am now in. WW is disturbed by me essentially cancelling the shared CC. She used it also to pay for her therapy session copay and she asked me about that today. I told her to use the debit card or the flexibly spending account (FSA) card. She said she cannot find the FSA card, I immediately ordered a replacement for her that will come in a week from now.
Buzz words like "play smart", "EQ", "go dark", "self diag" have little meaning to someone who does not know what that is and how to apply it.
play smart was explained just now, hope you got it. EQ was part of the emotional intelligence discussion because your W mentioned the other guy had it. I was trying to open you up to that emotional side of it, but you admitted you have problems with this, understanding the emotional piece. I still think this is an area you can greatly improve in but you may need your counselor for that one. Maybe reading a book about it might help. I cant tell you what will fix you if that's what you need. You will need to make some effort to go out there and look for the answer too if it intrigues you enough. GO dark, now this one, you implemented before you fully understood? That's on you. Next time you are unsure of something, run it by here first(just like when you said you were wanting your lawyer to draw them papers up, phew) self diag, not sure about this one. When I made that comment I was saying we were still looking under the hood of the car running a diag(diagnostic to find out what the issues were) its not a buzzword here. Just a poorly used attempt at a metaphor causing confusion, sorry bout that.
What this exchange highlights is that I am still rather on edge and stressed out. Picking arguments with folks who want to help me is rather stupid. I have one thing I am unsure about, but I post that separately.
Originally Posted by Adam04
I know if I was in your shoes I wouldn't like to hear that and I'm sorry for feeling like I need to express that to you but you are going to make things worse down the line if you don't stop letting your emotions get the best of you.
What upsets me a bit is that several people tell me "you are doing it wrong", but fail to detail what the better plan of action is.
you've mentioned you can't connect with your wife emotionally. you've said you 've been shy and awkward and didn't think you would ever marry. this says something about how you see you self worth. You've allowed W to disrespect you. I don't know if you purposely don't answer other peoples questions or address some of your root causes for issues. I think one of them is your self esteem. I think because you may have low self esteem you are allowing WW to get her way and many things is an attack on you. someone is being too mean to you, your wife has no EQ and is mean to you, you make excuses for some of the other stuff like the BF on Fb and your son getting angry at you for buying spam at the wrong store? what the hell....
I don't want to sound cruel, but I hope you aren't victimizing yourself. We're saying to you to slow down and don't let your emotions control or guide your actions and you interpret that as we are saying you are doing it wrong. If using your emotions is wrong, what is the right way then? Some of that responsibility lies on your shoulders. You've said " guess you cant wait around for someone to come and fix this." that responsibility isnt for someone else, its for you and you're looking for a white knight. People here can give you advice and guidance but its up to you. Choices are hard. This is hard for many of us here.
It sure is damn hard. All of this is new to me and what is new is scary. A lot of my validation came at home. W happy, kids happy meant me happy.WW blamed a lot of things on me, basically telling me that it is all my fault that she has an affair, that I am the sole reason why, that I drove her into the arms of someone else. She even told me that she could only stand being with me all these years because she was drunk. How the heck can anyone hear that from the person closest and have a high self esteem? Not that it was high before that.
Not answering questions is not intentional. There is just so much here piling in on me that I am getting overwhelmed. Dealing with this and myself is consuming all of me, yet there is normal life going on. Plus annoyances to get the psychiatrist's office to call back. It is very difficult to get mental health care.
Things will continue to be difficult as long as my mind clings to the dream of being back together with my wife. It [censored], she was my support system and now that is gone I start whining....so I stop here.
Read up on "Affair Down".
Great Google results on this. Also it's quite objective and cruel.
Yes, cruel...at least what I read so far. Puts things into perspective, but makes me feel even more miserable and helpless....as if I have no chance..... ever. And it kinda makes me feel as if all is my fault, although nothing that I read so far states that.
This line of thinking has to stop. Up in New York it's all feminism and equality and show your emotions and I think this has rubbed off on you. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with being yourself but I think outside influences play a role on us all. Did you know that feminists are more attracted to sexist men, statistically? All this crying and worrying about her reaction has go to stop. Stomp it out.
Let go of the stuff you can't control.
Focus that energy on what you can control.
You have freedom now. Go to the bar. Go play golf. Hang out with friends. Talk trash to your buddies. Don't you remember being single and doing whatever you wanted? I had a blast. I have so many stories to tell people. Go do that again! Your kids are old enough that you don't need to be around them constantly.
In regards to the equality statement I want to say that I believe in equal rights under the law, but I don't believe that all people are equal because all people are different, make different choices, and experience different consequences based on those choices.
There's not much action needed or understand needed right now. I'd focus on the first two LRT rules for now:
1. Stop pursuing.
2. Get a Life.
Before I got married I lived at home with my parents and brother. I finished up college and worked after that for half a year to earn money to move to the US. I never had that single life.
Can I do whatever I want with responsibilities towards my kids? I don't think you suggest being irresponsible, but I have to take care of them and that to me means being at home at least some time.
Go to a bar? I thought about it, but one of the Sandi rules is to stay away from bars. I opt for going to the gym and lately I am dying to get a big fat pretzel at the mall. So I will do that on Friday night.
I stopped pursuing. The biggest part of pursuit was chatting with WW via FB messenger. I cut that down to total bare minimum and on some days there is no communication via that channel.
Hanging out with friends.....all my life I was very shy. I do not have friends in a sense as that I can call someone up to ask if they want to come over for a movie or go somewhere. That is a big issue all along. After we moved from CT where WW's family is from we had nobody here to drop the kids off and go have fun.
Might be a good opportunity to dig out my base guitar and start playing again. Haven't done this in over a decade.
A lot of my interests result into solitary activities. Not surprisingly, because I am agonized by the thought of directly interacting with people I do not know.
I look through the meetup groups in the area and pick something. When spring comes it will be easier, more options. Tonight I go to a board game meetup that is fun aside from the mental stress of learning all the rules for games I don't know.
Communicating and doing fun stuff with S13 is easy. He likes going places and watching goofy TV shows. S17 is a totally different story. He spends almost all his time in his room. There are days I don't see him at all. When I knock at his door he does not respond. My attempts to talk to him about his gender identity issues were rejected, no matter which avenue I tried.Talking to him about our marriage issues met the same fate, him claiming that it is not his problem and that he does not want to give an opinion.
He wrote a resume and submitted it, then sent it to me. It is one of the worst resumes I have ever seen and I am involved in hiring for the past two years. He did not sell himself well (he used terms like "casual experience" for things he knows a lot about) and the structure of the resume is bad. Contact info is squished into the last line, skills and experience are disjointed, nothing has a dates attached to it. He has a lot to list as a 17 year old, so the content is awesome. He outright refused to even hear my advice. That resume gets tossed in round 1.
Both sons have a bank account and I have the info for S13, but not for S17. So I asked S17 to give me his account number. I told him that if I ever want to give him money it is the easiest way to do an electronic transfer. There is no immediate need for this. He refused claiming that he wants to keep if clandestine and that he does not hand out personal information. I told him that I am sad that he does not trust me with this and he then said that I am now guilting him into doing something. While telling WW on which card to use to pay for her therapy session this was brought up by her, she told me not to take this personally. I eventually stopped engaging in this discussion with either of them.
He is very close to WW and it seems as if he takes her side in all of this. It bothers me as I am sure that the version he was told is not entirely accurate.
On a positive note, S17 often tells me about his programming projects and we watch tech related YouTube videos. He is happy that I get him cheap frozen pizzas and canned octopus and one in w while a bag of beef jerkey.
Anyone have advice on how to better communicate with S17?
How do I talk to S17 without having it be verbatim reported back to WW immediately?
How can I help him with his personal issues when he stonewalls like that?
Should I fix the resume for him and send it to him?
Any advice on how to engage him into a conversation about what is going on in the family?
Sorry, goes a bit outside of divorce busting, but it is an important issue for me.
Your marriage issues are not for discussion with your kids. They are not your kids problem to resolve. Yes you can update them on any logistical changes and explain your behavior, but beyond that dont discuss your M or WW with them.
Just do your best to be a good listening ear to your kids and make sure that you are readily available to them and taking care of any needs they have.
My D16 is either in her room or gone with friends. But I still plan a couple of days a week to either take the kids to fo something fun or to dinner.
Just make sure the kids know that you both love them and will both be there for them no matter what.
Please start a new thread and link the threads together.
Please start a new thread and link the threads together.
I can guess why...but why? And how do I do that?
Your marriage issues are not for discussion with your kids. They are not your kids problem to resolve. Yes you can update them on any logistical changes and explain your behavior, but beyond that dont discuss your M or WW with them.
Just make sure the kids know that you both love them and will both be there for them no matter what.
Thanks for the advice.
Please start a new thread and link the threads together.
I can guess why...but why? And how do I do that?
That's just the rule here, when you hit 10 pages then you start a new thread. Title it the same as this one with part X after, so "Marriage and depression part 2". Copy the URL of the new thread and post it as your last post in this thread. Copy the URL of this thread and post it in the first post of the new one. In the first post of the new one it helps to give a brief synopsis of your situation.
How to Link threads
Hi Dave, I'm a little late arriving on your thread but you've received help from some of the board's best. I'm going to jump right in by telling you to let go of that list of things where your WW said you messed up. Here's what a WW will do. She wants the H to believe everything is his fault, so she puts his mistakes/short comings in the spotlight. She wants to justify her waywardness by blaming her H for the fact that she is breaking up the family to have an A with some guy. She will feed you a menu of bs. That's why you should not believe that she is doing all this stuff b/c you have been such a horrible H. She wants you to take the fall for her affair.
Originally Posted by LH19
David no one is telling you to be mean and unsupportive. Don't confuse that with not being a doormat and weak.
I think I understand...but not really. I know what the words mean, but I don't know what to do in practice.
How about starting here: You stop feeling that you have to accommodate her. You stop trying to please her by becoming this idea of a Super Husband she's painted. Get rid of that laundry list of complaints, b/c you could do every one perfectly and it would not make one ounce of difference. Why? B/c that was in the past, and now this isn't about all her complaints..........it's about your W being wayward. Her disrespect for you as a man and as her H is the root of her waywardness. Therefore, everything you do needs to draw respect. She's not going to feel respect, if you are crying like a baby and begging her not to leave you. She's not going to respect you if allow her to walk all over you, bully you, shout obscenities, put you down in front of your sons, etc. See what I mean? You've got to find your backbone and don't be afraid to stand tall and learn to pucker your lips and make this sound, "No".
In order for her to face reality, you must stop accommodating her. She doesn't appreciate your accommodation, she EXPECTS it. It's time for her to put on her big girl panties.
Btw, if you feel tears coming on, run for the bathroom and bury your face in a stack of towels, or leave the house until you've calmed down.
That is where my concern is....she told me all the things I messed up and didn't do. Now I'm doing it and it's not good? It leaves me confused. If I do these things I come across as doormat, when I don't do them I wonder if she thinks she was right all along and that I will never change
No, b/c you are like the monkey dancing to her music box. That's no good. You are under the impression if you "please" her and get "good enough" it will change her mind and she won't leave you. That's not how it works. The things she listed has nothing to do with respecting you as a man. She's not going to tell you what you need to do for her to respect you........
but I will.
I want nothing more than to find a way to a much better marriage with my wife. The difficult part is that she does not seem interested in that...although I really do not know what she is thinking
I understand, but she's not thinking about you. She is thinking of being free. She is in a fantasy that she's created. The only thing that will bring her out of it is.......loss & reality.
I often wonder if I am really that unloveable, that horrible of a person that I got what I deserved. For months I am seeking advice and get it, but I feel no wiser.
It's b/c you believed her bs. Stop it. You became so dependent on her b/c you have no social life apart from your family. You have no local friends. Her and the kids are all you've had, and that adds to your fear of being without her. Some of these LBS's can tell you how shy people can meet new people and make friends. Okay? One thing for sure, they aren't going to come up to your front door and ask if they can be your friend. So, go where there are people and mingle.
Before you can save anything, and before you can have a great MR, you must save yourself. You need to read books that will help you build self esteem. You need to nourish your spirit. Take good care of your physical health. That's why we tell you to look out for yourself. You have to focus on doing what's best for you and the kids.......and leave her to deal with her waywardness. Stop accommodating her. She is not a royal princess, even if she has a sense of entitlement.