#11 - Piecing is hard!

[SteveLW]

Previous thread: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2829019#Post2829019

Mach1 I will answer your questions later today.

[neffer]

Welcome back dear friend. It ´s glad to see your boat still sailing.

[SteveLW]

Thanks neffer!!

[SteveLW]

Hey everyone. Things have been going well. I'm still reading and studying. Reading a book now on the lies about D. Very eye-opening. I'm still struggling with feelings of wanting to throw in the towel. Not as strong as they were a couple of weeks ago. Anyway just thought I'd check in.

[Joe2017]

Hey Steve. Keep it up! I'm glad to see you're well and the latest wave of negativity is subsiding. Mine is on the upswing right now lol.

[Ready2Change]

Feelings constantly change. Keep moving forward using logic and your core values.

[Twofeet]

Steve,

What book?

[petri]

Hi Steve! Glad to hear that your not acting on an impulse here. You take your time buddy. Things will unravel and you'll make the right call for you. I bet we are all cheering for you! Keep it up!

[lost8]

Keep in touch Steve, I am struggling with the same emotions and am looking for any help I can get from other sitches.

[SteveLW]

Steve,

What book?

I don't think we can post other author's books in the forum do a search on staying married books.

[SteveLW]

Feelings constantly change. Keep moving forward using logic and your core values.

Read your response last night but didn't respond. But it has been bouncing around in my head.

This is exactly what sets apart those that try to stay in their marriage and fix things, and a walkaway mindset. The book I am reading makes this point. That society, government, peer-pressure, etc have all made taking the easy way out (DIVORCE) so much more appealing than sticking in and doing the hard work of saving a marriage. In fact, due to so many states now supporting no-fault divorce, this thinking even goes into pre-marriage. "If it turns out I don't like being married to this person, I'll just leave them and find someone new."

Let me tell you, as I've struggled with the walkaway mindset for about a month now, I understand how strong these feelings can be. "The grass is greener." "So-and-so got a D and they seem so much happier and free now." The bombardment of divorce being a freeing experience in popular media. (Look at the recent spat of shows about divorce!) You start to see staying married as a life of misery and no hope. And getting a divorce as being a bright, sunny future.

The book I am reading specifically sets out to undo these myths. The grass isn't greener. So and so isn't so much happier. And divorce is not the freeing experience, especially when kids are involved, that pop culture would like us to believe.

The difference between staying and leaving is to understand that these feelings will make you believe the former and ignore the latter. I think most walkaway spouses end up regretting their decision to D.

These are the things I keep thinking about. I think God sent this latest book into my life to open my eyes back up to what I already knew to be true. R2C, thank you for pointing out the permanence of logic and core values over the temporal nature of feelings!

[ballast]

Steve...just wanted to say man that I think it's great that you are stepping back and looking back at all the angles of your sitch holistically. Besides being the right thing for you I think, given your stature on these forums many, many others are able to get a much better overall picture of BD/WW, R'ing and the true realities of divorce for each of them in their respective situations.

as I've said before, don't make rash decisions...in effect you are "doing the work" on a macro level now and that's going to take time.

all the best...

-B

[ovrrnbw]

I'd like to read that book. It's so crazy how our minds just change. Once we have something, it's no longer what we want. Our brains are wired so that we are never happy, never satisfied. And we have to fight that every day, and in some ways it fuels us.

That's why I say humans are just animals. A lot of what we do doesn't make sense, but it's on us to use the big brain and be more than animals. Every one of us has to do this for it to really work. It reminds of this old quote:

"No drop of water thinks itself responsible for the flood".

But people, like water droplets, do what other people do. So setting that positive example means others will follow.

Steve, I hope you keep working hard to figure out who you are and who you want to be. Good luck on this.

[LH19]

OK, great update. Happy for you brother! I will continue to pray for you and S3.

Not sure if you have read my threads at all lately, but I've been struggling a bit. Piecing is a lot harder than I ever imagined. I just hope it works out because for me to get your place would probably mean I am 2 years away from if and when another BD ever occurred. No indication right now one will, but wow this stuff weighs on you.

So happy for you being so happy! Hope you had a very Merry Christmas and wish you the best in the New Year!

Steve I am very confused! Sounds like you think another bomb will be dropped on you. I thought you were thinking of dropping one on your W. Please clarify.

[SteveLW]

LH I meant either way. Whether I dropped a bomb or whether she relapsed and did. I don't expect it at this point. But who really knows?

[RR17]

Steve, I have been away from these threads and it appears that there has been a change in your sitch. I have scanned back and don't seem to be able to find where the change happened. I hope that this is just another growing pain and that it signals more positive growth. Prayers

[SteveLW]

Thanks RR! I really appreciate it. Nothing really has changed other than me struggling with my own walkaway mindset since late November, early December. Working through it. I think you're right, it's about more growth. Just more work I need to do!

[LB55]

Hang in there Steve, keep doing the work on yourself. Praying for you Brother.

[kiro]

The book I am reading makes this point. That society, government, peer-pressure, etc have all made taking the easy way out (DIVORCE) so much more appealing than sticking in and doing the hard work of saving a marriage. In fact, due to so many states now supporting no-fault divorce, this thinking even goes into pre-marriage. "If it turns out I don't like being married to this person, I'll just leave them and find someone new."

Let me tell you, as I've struggled with the walkaway mindset for about a month now, I understand how strong these feelings can be. "The grass is greener." "So-and-so got a D and they seem so much happier and free now." The bombardment of divorce being a freeing experience in popular media. (Look at the recent spat of shows about divorce!) You start to see staying married as a life of misery and no hope. And getting a divorce as being a bright, sunny future.

The book I am reading specifically sets out to undo these myths. The grass isn't greener. So and so isn't so much happier. And divorce is not the freeing experience, especially when kids are involved, that pop culture would like us to believe.

The difference between staying and leaving is to understand that these feelings will make you believe the former and ignore the latter. I think most walkaway spouses end up regretting their decision to D.

These are the things I keep thinking about. I think God sent this latest book into my life to open my eyes back up to what I already knew to be true. R2C, thank you for pointing out the permanence of logic and core values over the temporal nature of feelings!

Steve, I want to point out that you are dealing with an exceptional situation. A WAS is someone who leaves a S who is committed to the M and doesn't know anything is going on inside the WAS's mind before BD is dropped.

In your case, you've been dealing with a S who is not committed as much and who is probably not trying hard enough, while you have been giving it everyone you got. You are totally justified to be drained and tired.

It's good that you are reading this book, but I don't think you are discovering that stuff for the first time. I'm pretty sure we've already had several chats in the past about these same topics. And if I remember correctly, you already knew that stuff about society influencing this trend and that the grass is not greener.

Don't be too hard on yourself. You deserve a break.. but hang in there and keep faith alive.

[paco123]

Steve, if it is any consolation at all, I think many of us here yearn to be in your position of actually piecing and trying to work out the difficulties that accompany many marriages. Speaking for myself, I would rather be piecing than waiting.

[SteveLW]

Steve, if it is any consolation at all, I think many of us here yearn to be in your position of actually piecing and trying to work out the difficulties that accompany many marriages. Speaking for myself, I would rather be piecing than waiting.

paco, yes I understand that. I think my sitch is a bit of a cautionary tale. We spend a lot of time talking about the WAS/WS fog: they rewrite history, they never loved their LBS, they blame everything on their LBS, they tried for the whole relationship but the LBS didn't, etc. But the LBS fog is just as powerful and profound. We LBSs tend to make our WAS/WS out to be the essence of perfection prior to BD. In reality, there were many things most of us LBSs were struggling with in our own marriages.

In my LBS fog I forgot how my W is late to everything. That she routinely makes me wait when we are leaving to go somewhere, despite having had plenty of time prior to prepare and get ready. Instead she waits until the last minute and invariably I am sitting waiting for her knowing we'll be late. She was never a great house-keeper, I routinely did the majority of the house cleaning. Prior to becoming WW she had given up on life in many ways (hair never done, ripped worn out clothing despite my constantly telling her to go shopping, terrible diet, etc). Admittedly on the last one she has been much more concerned about her appearance since being a WW than before. She has some quirks and hangups from her childhood and very bad relationship with her father.

The point is that during my LBS fog she became the perfect W that I could never live without, which is obviously is not true. All I ask paco, is for you to look back prior to BD and really do a honest assessment about how happy you really were. A few LBSs truly were happy and got blindsided by BD. Most of us were in unhappy marriages and were unhappy ourselves leading up to BD.

[SteveLW]

Thanks everyone for the support and prayers. Greatly appreciated. Things are better, and I am back to working on MR 2.0 and trying to improve things. However, I still have pangs of thinking maybe I should I have just insisted she follow through on her plan to get a job, get her own place, and D. I wonder often what that would look like today. I guess I am being a typical human-being in that I want my cake and eat it too.

[Cadet]

Thanks everyone for the support and prayers. Greatly appreciated. Things are better, and I am back to working on MR 2.0 and trying to improve things. However, I still have pangs of thinking maybe I should I have just insisted she follow through on her plan to get a job, get her own place, and D. I wonder often what that would look like today. I guess I am being a typical human-being in that I want my cake and eat it too.

Glad you are back on track.

I guess one of the things I think you need to look at is this.
People cycle up and down, hot and cold.
This obviously includes you too.
So in DB we suggest you sit back - take a deep breath and wait
for the cycle to complete before you make a big decision.
Having your cake and eating it too are fine for the long term but
be careful that you make decisions about it in the short term.

LOVE is a CHOICE not a feeling,
so be sure it is what you are choosing to do, for the right reasons.

[paco123]

Thanks again, Steve, for the advice and good intentions.

I don't put W on a pedestal (or under a pedestal, although at times....). I like to think I have enough courage and decency to validate W's emotional reality, even as I see her weaknesses, just as she has been in times past, patient and forgiving with mine.

She is neither Godess, nor Devil--only the partner she once was and whom I hope will one day again be.

I think it's possible and (for me) desirable to both take responsibility for myself, while imaginatively validating the reality of the other. At least on good days.

[neffer]

Thanks everyone for the support and prayers. Greatly appreciated. Things are better, and I am back to working on MR 2.0 and trying to improve things. However, I still have pangs of thinking maybe I should I have just insisted she follow through on her plan to get a job, get her own place, and D. I wonder often what that would look like today. I guess I am being a typical human-being in that I want my cake and eat it too.

Glad you are back on track.

I guess one of the things I think you need to look at is this.
People cycle up and down, hot and cold.
This obviously includes you too.
So in DB we suggest you sit back - take a deep breath and wait
for the cycle to complete before you make a big decision.
Having your cake and eating it too are fine for the long term but
be careful that you make decisions about it in the short term.

LOVE is a CHOICE not a feeling,
so be sure it is what you are choosing to do, for the right reasons.

Love is a choice!

Thanks Cadet!

[kiro]

That she routinely makes me wait when we are leaving to go somewhere, despite having had plenty of time prior to prepare and get ready. Instead she waits until the last minute and invariably I am sitting waiting for her knowing we'll be late. She was never a great housekeeper, I routinely did the majority of the house cleaning. Prior to becoming WW she had given up on life in many ways (hair never done, ripped worn out clothing despite my constantly telling her to go shopping, terrible diet, etc). Admittedly on the last one she has been much more concerned about her appearance since being a WW than before. She has some quirks and hangups from her childhood and very bad relationship with her father.

Steve, are you sure you were not married to my W? lol

[SteveLW]

Thanks everyone for the support and prayers. Greatly appreciated. Things are better, and I am back to working on MR 2.0 and trying to improve things. However, I still have pangs of thinking maybe I should I have just insisted she follow through on her plan to get a job, get her own place, and D. I wonder often what that would look like today. I guess I am being a typical human-being in that I want my cake and eat it too.

Glad you are back on track.

I guess one of the things I think you need to look at is this.
People cycle up and down, hot and cold.
This obviously includes you too.
So in DB we suggest you sit back - take a deep breath and wait
for the cycle to complete before you make a big decision.
Having your cake and eating it too are fine for the long term but
be careful that you make decisions about it in the short term.

LOVE is a CHOICE not a feeling,
so be sure it is what you are choosing to do, for the right reasons.

This. Is. Awesome. Thanks Cadet. If someone doesn't beat me to it this is going in R2C's thread when I get time.

[SteveLW]

Thanks again, Steve, for the advice and good intentions.

I don't put W on a pedestal (or under a pedestal, although at times....). I like to think I have enough courage and decency to validate W's emotional reality, even as I see her weaknesses, just as she has been in times past, patient and forgiving with mine.

She is neither Godess, nor Devil--only the partner she once was and whom I hope will one day again be.

I think it's possible and (for me) desirable to both take responsibility for myself, while imaginatively validating the reality of the other. At least on good days.

paco, that is good. Your an atypical LBH! Most of us have the fog that our partner was perfect and we are doomed if we lose them, only to be disappointed by the perfect image we had once the fog lifts. I've seen a thousand times if I've seen it once.

[SteveLW]

That she routinely makes me wait when we are leaving to go somewhere, despite having had plenty of time prior to prepare and get ready. Instead she waits until the last minute and invariably I am sitting waiting for her knowing we'll be late. She was never a great housekeeper, I routinely did the majority of the house cleaning. Prior to becoming WW she had given up on life in many ways (hair never done, ripped worn out clothing despite my constantly telling her to go shopping, terrible diet, etc). Admittedly on the last one she has been much more concerned about her appearance since being a WW than before. She has some quirks and hangups from her childhood and very bad relationship with her father.

Steve, are you sure you were not married to my W? lol

LOL

I hope not. Polygamy on top of everything else would be way too much!

[kiro]

paco, that is good. Your an atypical LBH! Most of us have the fog that our partner was perfect and we are doomed if we lose them, only to be disappointed by the perfect image we had once the fog lifts. I've seen a thousand times if I've seen it once.

Steve,
Forgive me to say this, but I think you also are an atypical LBH because you started piecing very quickly after BD. Sometimes, I wonder if some of your recent difficulties are due to that fact precisely.

For myself and many others, 1 year after BD, we would be separated with minimal or no communication at all. The WAS/WW/MLCer would be in her fog still.

By that time, the LBS has usually woken up from their original fog and realized that WAS is not perfect. Then LBS starts to consider their options, i.e. moving on for good or continuing to DB and wait.

In you case, you may have not had enough time to think about all this because you were thrown into "piecing" almost immediately. And maybe your WW hadn't totally come out of her cycle/fog and still hasn't resolved all her emotional issues to be ready to be a better person and work on the MR.

I don't know... I am making a lot of assumptions about your sitch sorry if I got it completely wrong...

[SteveLW]

paco, that is good. Your an atypical LBH! Most of us have the fog that our partner was perfect and we are doomed if we lose them, only to be disappointed by the perfect image we had once the fog lifts. I've seen a thousand times if I've seen it once.

Steve,
Forgive me to say this, but I think you also are an atypical LBH because you started piecing very quickly after BD. Sometimes, I wonder if some of your recent difficulties are due to that fact precisely.

For myself and many others, 1 year after BD, we would be separated with minimal or no communication at all. The WAS/WW/MLCer would be in her fog still.

By that time, the LBS has usually woken up from their original fog and realized that WAS is not perfect. Then LBS starts to consider their options, i.e. moving on for good or continuing to DB and wait.

In you case, you may have not had enough time to think about all this because you were thrown into "piecing" almost immediately. And maybe your WW hadn't totally come out of her cycle/fog and still hasn't resolved all her emotional issues to be ready to be a better person and work on the MR.

I don't know... I am making a lot of assumptions about your sitch sorry if I got it completely wrong...

kiro, I think you are absolutely spot on. We went from my uneasiness pre-BD, to BD, to her insisting it was over, to piecing all within 4 months. piecing was just a little over 2 months post BD.

One other thing that makes my sitch atypical is that I initiated BD by discovering her EA. I do not think she ever got into full blown WAW/WW status prior to BD. By the time most LBS realize there is an issue they their S has moved on into full blown WAS/WS mode.

All sitches are different but mine was extremely different.

[kiro]

[quote=kiro] One other thing that makes my sitch atypical is that I initiated BD by discovering her EA. I do not think she ever got into full blown WAW/WW status prior to BD. By the time most LBS realize there is an issue they their S has moved on into full blown WAS/WS mode.

Everywhere I researched on cheating spouses, I found the same recommendation, to not try to stop the A and to let it take its course. In my case, a few days after my W told me she was in love with someone else, I asked her to choose between him and me. She said she chose me, but I'm pretty sure she was lying. (5 months later, she left).

Later on, I started understanding why the recommendation to leave the A take its course. Like everything else about WAS/WW, to be able to reconcile, the WW needs to go through their full cycle and realize by themselves that the grass is not greener on the other side, start seeing their own issues and wanting to come back to the LBS.

If they are pressured by a pursuing LBS, most WWs will run away but I think that some WWs don't have the courage to run and will just give up their fantasy including the A. (This is why, my WW always talked about her courage to leave.). But when they give up their A out of pressure and fear, they continue to fantasize about it and they feel that they have missed out on an opportunity to be happy. In your case, you initiating BD may have caused a similar effect on her. She never got into full blown WW, but she may be still lost.

My 2 cents!

[SteveLW]

[quote=kiro] One other thing that makes my sitch atypical is that I initiated BD by discovering her EA. I do not think she ever got into full blown WAW/WW status prior to BD. By the time most LBS realize there is an issue they their S has moved on into full blown WAS/WS mode.

Everywhere I researched on cheating spouses, I found the same recommendation, to not try to stop the A and to let it take its course. In my case, a few days after my W told me she was in love with someone else, I asked her to choose between him and me. She said she chose me, but I'm pretty sure she was lying. (5 months later, she left).

Later on, I started understanding why the recommendation to leave the A take its course. Like everything else about WAS/WW, to be able to reconcile, the WW needs to go through their full cycle and realize by themselves that the grass is not greener on the other side, start seeing their own issues and wanting to come back to the LBS.

If they are pressured by a pursuing LBS, most WWs will run away but I think that some WWs don't have the courage to run and will just give up their fantasy including the A. (This is why, my WW always talked about her courage to leave.). But when they give up their A out of pressure and fear, they continue to fantasize about it and they feel that they have missed out on an opportunity to be happy. In your case, you initiating BD may have caused a similar effect on her. She never got into full blown WW, but she may be still lost.

My 2 cents!

Kiro, very astute.

In our case my W, when I initiated BD, said she was done, wanted out, and nothing I said or did was going to change it. I initially (first 2 days) went into typical LBS mode. Begging, Pleading. Crying. Moping. On day 3 I remembered DB since this was our second go-round (she had an EA in 2005). And completely backed off. I never insisted she end it. I never forced her to choose. I found out later that about 3 weeks after BD the guy himself (a divorced, loser, ex-con, that lived several states away and was 11 years her junior) ended the EA. She went through a few days of withdrawals. Her waywardness didn't end there because she then went on to try to find OM#2. It started with another guy that was several years younger than her, divorced, and even further away (more states). That never made it out of friendship mode with him sending some inappropriate messages mostly about what he and his GF would do sexually.

So I did not force, or give her an ultimatum. I pulled back (with a few lapses) and let her work through her own crap. About 2 1/2 months in she seemed to come out of her waywardness after a couple weeks of her initiating sex with me a lot. I've stated before that after that couple of weeks she told me the insatiable desire for sex seemed to have dissipated, and that coincided with her waywardness fading, and her committing back to the MR. Including engaging fully in MC and doing the homework the MC gave to us.

She is fully committed again. When she detected a change in me a few weeks ago (when I was going through my internal crisis about not wanting to stay), she was distraught for a couple of days. I took people's advice here and told her I was dealing with some feelings and would work through it and let her know later. I then had a discussion with her about some things I was dealing with (not the wanting to leave part). She was very supportive. Even showed some real strong remorse about what she put us through at the end of last year.

I think she is no longer lost, is all in, and is enjoying MR 2.0.

[LH19]

Like everything else about WAS/WW, to be able to reconcile, the WW needs to go through their full cycle and realize by themselves that the grass is not greener on the other side, start seeing their own issues and wanting to come back to the LBS.

This I believe whole heartily. That's why when the WW/WH says I want a divorce. The only response should be "Do you need help packing your bags"?

[SteveLW]

Like everything else about WAS/WW, to be able to reconcile, the WW needs to go through their full cycle and realize by themselves that the grass is not greener on the other side, start seeing their own issues and wanting to come back to the LBS.

This I believe whole heartily. That's why when the WW/WH says I want a divorce. The only response should be "Do you need help packing your bags"?

Yep. That's what I should have said!

[kiro]

Steve, thanks for sharing. If this is the case, then your sitch seems to be about getting along and fixing many of your MR issues. I think that you should accept that it is Ok that at some point in the future, you both could decide to end the MR as long as you give it your best and that you both come to a mutual agreement. This wouldn't make you a WAS. But you're not there yet.

I agree with others that love is a choice. But feelings are emotions that can go up and down because they're influenced by many things, including hormonal changes, stress, etc. I'd recommend working on your MR habits and the emotional connection by adding loving and kind acts and not worrying about complicated relationship issues at this point. Once you implement more loving habits (date nights, gifts, hugging, etc.) and you feel closer to each other emotionally, you can then address certain issues such as what you described about your W.

If later on, after all emotions have calmed down and you both still think that you will be happier separately, then you can talk about it openly. I'm sure you know that already...

[SteveLW]

Thank kiro.

I do think that her and married each other for probably not the right reasons. Me because I only loved one other girl enough to consider marrying her. Her because she was getting towards thirty, and wanted marriage and kids. Obviously people marry for wide and varied reasons, but I think it should be more about the other person and what they bring to the table (the right things obviously) and less about things related to yourself.

As I said before, I was always looking for someone I was crazy about. In hindsight, we should be looking for someone that is crazy about us.

[kiro]

Well, Steve, it is true that you are starting to sound like a WAS

I am deciding deliberately to follow a theory that says that love is a choice and that it's not about finding the right person but about learning to love the person we found.

I obviously have no proof that this is the best theory, but I tell myself if I was able to have intense love toward my W at least twice the first few years when we first met and then once she BD'ed me, this means that she is a person I could love again and again. And I also loved her during our MR, although the feelings were not as intense.

And it is the same for her feelings. I know she loved me intensely when we first met, but over time her feelings changed.

I don't believe that 2 people need to be 100% compatible in order to love each other and live happily, but at least they need to share some basic beliefs and values.

But MR is not a prison. If you feel like that, and she also feels the same, then maybe you should consider a trial separation for a few months.

And I agree with you that it is important to be with someone who is crazy about you, which doesn't necessarily mean intense feelings. It just means someone who believes wholeheartedly that she wants to be with you. Before BD, I never doubted that she wanted to be with me. I was naive but that's what I believed, and so I was happy.

[SteveLW]

Maybe my last post made it sound more dire than I intended. I have done a lot of analysis over the last year. I think there were some right reasons we married each other as well. You said: "I don't believe that 2 people need to be 100% compatible in order to love each other and live happily, but at least they need to share some basic beliefs and values. " This was us.

When she went wayward, those beliefs and values went out the window. But they are back now, at least seem to be.

Yes I think I was starting to think a bit like a walkaway. I think I am backed away from that now. But yeah, I agree with you. Instead of finding some one you love, we should love the one we found. (Another anti-divorce expert says that all the time.)

Thanks Kiro, please keep your insights coming!

[kiro]

Here is 1 more thought (hopefully I am not hijacking your thread):

If I had never married my W and I met her (the way she was before BD) for the first time now, maybe I wouldn't be attracted to her because, as you say, I changed and what I want now is different from what I wanted 20 years ago.

What I am trying to say is that I choose to love her because she is my W and not because of who she is. And I expected her to do the same toward me. This is what I call a good MR. Two people who choose to love each other, renew their love every day, and choose not to look at anyone else. This is a learned behaviour, which means we have to fight our impulses and our natural inclinations.

As long as we are married and we are both reciprocating that, it works and we can be happy. But when we find out that our partner chose to betray that unspoken deal, everything changes and all options are on the table.

At that point, the deal is off and we don't have to look at that person as our S but as one person among million others. I think the WAS goes through a similar train of thought but they do it while still married. If that train of thought takes over your mind, you're going on a wrong track...

[sandi2]

I feel impressed to bring up her depression. Maybe it was b/c you were dealing with your own inner turmoil during the last thread, is why there was very little response from you when it was suggested she was depressed. Hopefully, you will listen to what I have to add.

I have dealt with depression most of my adult life. For years, I did not know it was depression......I just thought there was something wrong in our MR. Like your W, I did not want to leave the house, except to attend church and take the kids to school. I would go all day with hardly touching the house, just watching the soaps on TV. Everything you described about your W could be said about me, too. When a woman is depressed, she doesn't have interest in how her house looks, or being involved with any activities. She doesn't feel happy, but she doesn't understand why. And another thing I experienced was very low sex drive. Yes, it all falls under the heading of depression. Some people believe a "real" Christian should never be depressed. Those people don't understand chemical depression or hormonal imbalance. It has nothing to do with faith or spiritual beliefs. It isn't something the person can control.

Not long before I went into my overt rebellious stage, I had been given various prescriptions for depression. I was also being medicated for another health problem. I saw several doctors over a few years, and they all had their own opinion of what prescriptions, if any, I should be given. I remember being on four anti-depressants at the same time. Then, I was yanked off all of them, cold turkey. It's a wonder I had not committed suicide! I never felt like taking my life. I just felt like I wasn't happy in my marriage. When I was prescribed Zoloft, that's when I started feeling as if I was dead on the inside. I didn't cry. But I didn't laugh, either. I was just numb. Zoloft should be named, "Zero". I had zero feelings, and zero sex drive, and zero interest in anything. During my Zoloft experience, I felt so utterly bored and disinterested in everything that I began playing online games. You know, those type where another player can join? Well, long story short, that was the beginning of my downfall.

Anyway, that was a long time ago. Am I blaming my waywardness on the prescription medication? No, I take full responsibility for my actions. I don't know how much they might have influenced me. I don't believe I was healthy, but I was not forced against my will. But here's the thing....I remember when I felt something! I felt the thrill of having another man feed my ego. I did not want to lose it, b/c I had been so numb for so long.

I still have to take medication for depression, but I've learned to watch which ones don't help. Through experience I have learned when I don't want to get out of bed, and have no motivation to get dressed, or brush my hair, then I'm not getting the proper dosage or the right medication.

So, I'm saying this to suggest that perhaps your wife is not a bad housekeeper, but she's depressed. Maybe she would care more about her looks, if she was taking the correct dosage or correct medication. Everything you've described about her screams that she is very depressed. Just b/c she's taking two anti-depressants doesn't mean they are the right ones for her. When a woman is happy, she feels motivated to have a clean home, and to do things in her life. Oh, and I noticed that when I feel happier, my sex drive is higher, too.

Please, learn about your W's depression. Find out what causes it, how she feels, and see if the doctor will try a different anti-depressant. I feel sorry for the spouses of depressed people. But many of them don't bother to learn more about the illness.

((hugs))

[SteveLW]

I feel impressed to bring up her depression. Maybe it was b/c you were dealing with your own inner turmoil during the last thread, is why there was very little response from you when it was suggested she was depressed. Hopefully, you will listen to what I have to add.

I have dealt with depression most of my adult life. For years, I did not know it was depression......I just thought there was something wrong in our MR. Like your W, I did not want to leave the house, except to attend church and take the kids to school. I would go all day with hardly touching the house, just watching the soaps on TV. Everything you described about your W could be said about me, too. When a woman is depressed, she doesn't have interest in how her house looks, or being involved with any activities. She doesn't feel happy, but she doesn't understand why. And another thing I experienced was very low sex drive. Yes, it all falls under the heading of depression. Some people believe a "real" Christian should never be depressed. Those people don't understand chemical depression or hormonal imbalance. It has nothing to do with faith or spiritual beliefs. It isn't something the person can control.

Not long before I went into my overt rebellious stage, I had been given various prescriptions for depression. I was also being medicated for another health problem. I saw several doctors over a few years, and they all had their own opinion of what prescriptions, if any, I should be given. I remember being on four anti-depressants at the same time. Then, I was yanked off all of them, cold turkey. It's a wonder I had not committed suicide! I never felt like taking my life. I just felt like I wasn't happy in my marriage. When I was prescribed Zoloft, that's when I started feeling as if I was dead on the inside. I didn't cry. But I didn't laugh, either. I was just numb. Zoloft should be named, "Zero". I had zero feelings, and zero sex drive, and zero interest in anything. During my Zoloft experience, I felt so utterly bored and disinterested in everything that I began playing online games. You know, those type where another player can join? Well, long story short, that was the beginning of my downfall.

Anyway, that was a long time ago. Am I blaming my waywardness on the prescription medication? No, I take full responsibility for my actions. I don't know how much they might have influenced me. I don't believe I was healthy, but I was not forced against my will. But here's the thing....I remember when I felt something! I felt the thrill of having another man feed my ego. I did not want to lose it, b/c I had been so numb for so long.

I still have to take medication for depression, but I've learned to watch which ones don't help. Through experience I have learned when I don't want to get out of bed, and have no motivation to get dressed, or brush my hair, then I'm not getting the proper dosage or the right medication.

So, I'm saying this to suggest that perhaps your wife is not a bad housekeeper, but she's depressed. Maybe she would care more about her looks, if she was taking the correct dosage or correct medication. Everything you've described about her screams that she is very depressed. Just b/c she's taking two anti-depressants doesn't mean they are the right ones for her. When a woman is happy, she feels motivated to have a clean home, and to do things in her life. Oh, and I noticed that when I feel happier, my sex drive is higher, too.

Please, learn about your W's depression. Find out what causes it, how she feels, and see if the doctor will try a different anti-depressant. I feel sorry for the spouses of depressed people. But many of them don't bother to learn more about the illness.

((hugs))

Thanks sandi. As always you are spot on. If you go back to my first thread you'll see that I came to this forum because I found a post from another poster about the problems anti-depressants can cause in marriages. And until Sept. 2017 everything you've described was my W to a tee. She's never been a good housekeeper (even when she lived alone before we were married!), but as she got more and more depressed and gave up it became worse and worse. She's never been one to worry about the latest fashion trends, but over the years leading up to Sept 2017 she had just completely quit trying. Same with her hair and rest of her appearance. Our sex life went from barely there to non-existent.

Starting fall of 2017 that all changed. Suddenly she was taking care of her skin and hair. She was interested in new clothes. The house was another matter, but again she has never been much of a housekeeper. Of course this was all because of the excitement she found in the singing app, the words of affirmation she was getting for her singing, and the zest for life again leading her into waywardness.

Her doctor is interested in weaning her off of the meds; she takes two and zoloft is one, wellbutrin is the other. Wellbutrin is well known for making some people's libido go into overdrive, btw. Anyway, she too is interested in coming off of them. I am surprised you stopped cold turkey. Her prescriptions ran out over Christmas break and the physical withdrawals, very flu like, were severe. I eventually took matters into my own hands (I know, rescuing her again!) and called her DRs office, got emergency scripts called in. and got her Dr appointment scheduled this month so she can be evaluated again.

The good news sandi is that since we started piecing, she has been much better. She still isn't a great housekeeper, but is more interested in keeping things at least picked up. She is still much more into how she looks, and what she wears. And our sex life is better than it has been at anytime in our nearly 20 year marriage. This is why I will never take the singing app away from her. I am back in a place of trusting her, and I think having an outlet for her singing ability is the best medicine, better than any anti-depressant could ever hope to be!

More importantly, I continue to be a much better version of Steve85 than before. I continue to cement my 180s, I have dropped my nice guy tendencies, I continue to work on my self-differentiation. And I continue to have a life! Things are much better.

Not sure what it was I went through. I like your description: "Maybe it was b/c you were dealing with your own inner turmoil". Turmoil was a good word. Luckily it hit during the holidays, when through all of the events I had to put on the right face. I am a firm believer now in that feelings follow actions, not necessarily the reverse. Fake it until you make it!

[kiro]

Steve,

I'd love to hear about this nice guy tendencies and how you fixed it. I wonder if I have (had) this problem. Could you maybe tell me more about it on my thread whenever you have some time.

Here is my thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=61930&Number=2831460#Post2831460

thanks

[SteveLW]

SO I thought about this some more, and am wondering if maybe the stress of the old house not selling is causing her stress. I know the new house is not the way either of us would like it. We want new kitchen counters, some furniture, paint, and a lot of that is hinging on the other place selling. She has expresses some dismay at "making us buy this new house and not having the old one sell".

Financially we are doing fine. I would describe it as treading water. (Slightly better as I am still contributing to my retirement, but not gaining any savings right now.) But she is feeling like she put us into a bind. And that might be weighing on her.

Another thing is that both of us want to start exercising. The old house didn't have a basement, so we had a recumbent bike in a spare room, but that was in. Gym memberships on and off over the years were how we tried to work out. Now we have a huge basement, and I want to buy some equipment for down there. That also is contingent on the house selling. She feels like she is getting out of shape and it is bugging her.

So all of that could be contributing to some depression. Though the MR 2.0 is awesome, we are more connected than we have been since we've dated, but she is very hard on herself a lot.

[AnotherStander]

Can she join a gym now and you can postpone the basement gym until later when the house sells? You've probably seen me talk about Crossfit but I'm also a member at Anytime Fitness. It's like 35 bucks a month and is really nicely equipped. Plus if I'm traveling for business I have a fob that gets me into any AF club around the country so I can work out no matter where I am (even most small towns have one).

Regarding the new house, maybe do some cheaper things to help her feel like something is getting done and save the more expensive stuff for later. Painting doesn't cost much, maybe that's a good project to get started on.

[SteveLW]

Can she join a gym now and you can postpone the basement gym until later when the house sells? You've probably seen me talk about Crossfit but I'm also a member at Anytime Fitness. It's like 35 bucks a month and is really nicely equipped. Plus if I'm traveling for business I have a fob that gets me into any AF club around the country so I can work out no matter where I am (even most small towns have one).

Regarding the new house, maybe do some cheaper things to help her feel like something is getting done and save the more expensive stuff for later. Painting doesn't cost much, maybe that's a good project to get started on.

Yes, there is a local gym chain location 2 miles from the new place. I will encourage her to join (she already mentioned it). It is $35/month.

On the painting. Unfortunately this new place has really high cathedral ceilings in the rooms we want to paint. If it was us doing it we'd be golden, but we will have to hire people with the right equipment (scaffolding, etc).

[sandi2]

I've been on both those medications, but not at the same time. Wonder why her doctor wants to take her off, if she is doing better?

[SteveLW]

Her Dr believes that these should be used temporarily replaced by psychiatric evaluation and therapy. But she's been easy on my W treated to that. All she can do is encourage her to follow thru

[SteveLW]

So yesterday the sermon at church was on mending a broken marriage. Good stuff about not giving up, remaining committed, etc. It would have been so timely if it was last year! On 1/13 last year we were deep in the midst of our sitch, with her sure she wanted out. Maybe it wouldn't have made a difference, but she did seem receptive to things that were contrary to her desire, depending on the source. I remember she said after she had come out of her waywardness that she was looking for opposition to what she was wanting and feeling. Hoping something would snap her out of it I think this goes to my point earlier about her not having moved into full blown waywardness since she was still relying on her morals, which she hadn't completely given up yet.

[lost8]

I agree with all of your depression thoughts and different medications. I look back over the years and my W has been on and off anti depressants our entire M. Some have worked some haven't and some have had adverse side effects, like weight gain that have made things worse for someone with very low self esteem.

W is on a good one now that seems to help but she still expresses being depressed sometimes and hopelessness for her to ever be happy. You've heard my story about W appearing "off her rocker" and I have discussed with IC at times that I think my Ws waywardness could be her trying to escape her depression.

[TJT]

I remember she said after she had come out of her waywardness that she was looking for opposition to what she was wanting and feeling. Hoping something would snap her out of it I think this goes to my point earlier about her not having moved into full blown waywardness since she was still relying on her morals, which she hadn't completely given up yet.

This is an important distinction IMO. Also why I wish more people would stick up when people they love (friends, family) act against morals that I think it's obvious we all (should) have. I honestly liken it to drug interventions... sure maybe their physical life isn't at stake but their rash decisions will very well affect their life and I hate how most people downplay that and act like they can't do anything about it.

I know you can't control anyone and some of it is subjective... but you can at least present some pushback and tell someone you care about your honest thoughts about their stupidity, like your W was looking for. You know, help present some different perspectives or whatever. It's sad that even people who are LOOKING for it will not get it because nobody wants to say anything and rock the boat most of the time.

If your W didn't get to the point of totally trashing her morals, I think there's some solace you can take in that, although I'm terribly sorry about her struggles with depression. In fact, most recently that's one of the hardest things I've been struggling with in my sitch... that even if my H came back, was willing to put in the work, etc., how can I actually differentiate between things that came from the result of "fog" (depression or temporary insanity or whatever other drivers) and the things that are actual moral flaws in his character that just never emerged until now?

But as always I assume everyone has a level of crazy that I'd have to deal with anyway so I don't give up on him. It would definitely be easier to give up, and I find myself wishing more and more that someone else would just come and prove me wrong and remove me from the emotional prison I've put myself in with my H.

[DejaVu6]

TJT... totally get what you are talking about. I also find myself wishing the same thing but I know I am nowhere ready. I actually went onto an OLD site yesterday just to see who is out there. However I got increasingly panicky as I was scrolling down that I would see my H on there so I just logged out. Won’t go on there for a looonnng time... clearly not ready. The great news for you is that you are still so young. I know it doesn’t make your pain any less real but I know that you will have a lot of fun dating when you are ready and you WILL find someone... I know you will. I, on the other hand, at 50, almost 51, the pickings are slim and the baggage people have at this stage of life...significant. You should have seen some of these photos. They looked like mug shots. Ugh... some of them probably were.

Sorry for the hijack Steve.

[sandi2]

Yes, I did forget you initially talked about your W's depression and the medication.


I wanted to ask you to explain what you mean when referring to your W not going into full blown waywardness. Are you talking her acting out in rebellion......or going further, like having a PA?

[SteveLW]

TJT... totally get what you are talking about. I also find myself wishing the same thing but I know I am nowhere ready. I actually went onto an OLD site yesterday just to see who is out there. However I got increasingly panicky as I was scrolling down that I would see my H on there so I just logged out. Won’t go on there for a looonnng time... clearly not ready. The great news for you is that you are still so young. I know it doesn’t make your pain any less real but I know that you will have a lot of fun dating when you are ready and you WILL find someone... I know you will. I, on the other hand, at 50, almost 51, the pickings are slim and the baggage people have at this stage of life...significant. You should have seen some of these photos. They looked like mug shots. Ugh... some of them probably were.

Sorry for the hijack Steve.

No problem.

On the older dating, I have told the story a few times of finding my W's profile on the over 50 dating site. She was less than pleased with the responses. LOL Mug shot was almost her description. She said they looked 'used up". She looks 10 years or more younger than her age. Neither of us drink or smoke, and I stay fairly active. So it was kind of a shock for her. She then moved on to a regular dating site, where she was messaging guys 15-20 years younger than her. She wasn't getting many responses as most guys in their early 30s aren't interested in a married 50 year old, even if she only looks 35 or 40.

[SteveLW]

Yes, I did forget you initially talked about your W's depression and the medication.


I wanted to ask you to explain what you mean when referring to your W not going into full blown waywardness. Are you talking her acting out in rebellion......or going further, like having a PA?

I see other WWs on here that seemed to completely abandoned their morals and ethics. Stop attending church, etc. And while mine definitely was on that path, and compromised those during her wayward period, I don't think she ever completely threw them off. I think she would have most definitely if I hadn't caught it and sprang into action.

[TJT]

TJT... totally get what you are talking about. I also find myself wishing the same thing but I know I am nowhere ready. I actually went onto an OLD site yesterday just to see who is out there. However I got increasingly panicky as I was scrolling down that I would see my H on there so I just logged out. Won’t go on there for a looonnng time... clearly not ready. The great news for you is that you are still so young. I know it doesn’t make your pain any less real but I know that you will have a lot of fun dating when you are ready and you WILL find someone... I know you will. I, on the other hand, at 50, almost 51, the pickings are slim and the baggage people have at this stage of life...significant. You should have seen some of these photos. They looked like mug shots. Ugh... some of them probably were.

Sorry for the hijack Steve.

No problem.

On the older dating, I have told the story a few times of finding my W's profile on the over 50 dating site. She was less than pleased with the responses. LOL Mug shot was almost her description. She said they looked 'used up". She looks 10 years or more younger than her age. Neither of us drink or smoke, and I stay fairly active. So it was kind of a shock for her. She then moved on to a regular dating site, where she was messaging guys 15-20 years younger than her. She wasn't getting many responses as most guys in their early 30s aren't interested in a married 50 year old, even if she only looks 35 or 40.

Not to continue the hijack but since we're talking about it (and in response to your comment, DV) I read something not too long ago that actually said after only age 30 that's when guys lose interest...guys that age and older are apparently going for the girls in their 20s. Seems to be corroborated by A) my sitch, and B) the fact that I keep hearing people talk about relationships like that like it's just the way the world works.

E.g. on my recent vacation in a conversation with a staff member (long story) he said one of the older guys who's 50+ has had 3 wives and his current girl is a 20-something. Then in the airport another older man was bragging to whoever was with him that his wive is also decades younger than him.

I also had a conversation with (extended) family recently where someone was talking about another age-gap relationship. I don't think all of these people knew the details of what I was going through, but I did chime in and ask how that works/what people get out of those arrangements, because aside from the obvious surface-level reasons it seems there's a lot of other more important factors that would make it not fulfilling pretty quick. I think the age difference in their example wasn't THAT bad, so I said something referencing the age difference of my H and OW and how it's so weird, and they basically were like "unless you're the older one!"

I am just disgusted that people (and it seems moreso women) seem to be disposable after they get to a certain age, AND that that seems to be socially acceptable by most other people! And yeah I'm at an age where I could go a little younger than me too, but, I mean...have you met younger men these days?! lol... It seems my window may be somewhat narrow and expire quickly!

This is why I'm still really scared and totally not ready to date again, either. Even if I get some play, I'm always going to be terrified from here on out that I'm just going to get "thrown away" again once a few more years do go by. I used to think those scenarios were not the majority, but after this experience and hearing from so many other people (both here and IRL), I am starting to think the real love is actually the exception.

There will ALWAYS be someone younger and prettier and all the things, at some point. I just want an old-fashioned love that lasts forever where we both have so much value for each other that nothing could replace that. And I want that for everyone here too!! Anyway, feel free to continue other replies to this on my thread if it's not something Steve wants to continue deliberating

[Bo562]

I am just disgusted that people (and it seems moreso women) seem to be disposable after they get to a certain age, AND that that seems to be socially acceptable by most other people! And yeah I'm at an age where I could go a little younger than me too, but, I mean...have you met younger men these days?! lol... It seems my window may be somewhat narrow and expire quickly!

This is why I'm still really scared and totally not ready to date again, either. Even if I get some play, I'm always going to be terrified from here on out that I'm just going to get "thrown away" again once a few more years do go by. I used to think those scenarios were not the majority, but after this experience and hearing from so many other people (both here and IRL), I am starting to think the real love is actually the exception.

There will ALWAYS be someone younger and prettier and all the things, at some point. I just want an old-fashioned love that lasts forever where we both have so much value for each other that nothing could replace that. And I want that for everyone here too!! Anyway, feel free to continue other replies to this on my thread if it's not something Steve wants to continue deliberating

(((TJT)))

Speaking of disposability, I’ve feel more than a little used by W—always kinda felt like I was a stepping stone to her, and now that I helped her focus on her career and gave her 2 kids....see ya.

Even though my thoughts have gone to life after wife, and I’ve given much thought (probably moreso than I should, tbh) to other women down the road, the thought of dating again does terrify me at least a little bit. I’m sure that younger men probably don’t have it together, but I’m wondering the same about women in my age range, too.

I do understand your fear of being ‘thrown away’ again later down the road....I would be terrified too of someone else using me up and tossing me aside, as well. I just hope that I’m more discerning down the road. I’m also sure that real love is the exceptional, and in that sense it is ‘exceptional,’ and I hope we all find it.

I always know that there will be someone younger, more attractive, whatever....for whoever I’m with, but also the temptation waits for me, too, and I’ll have to be on my guard. But if it’s someone I can click with emotionally and spiritually, as well as physically, that will go a very very long way.

Probably like you, I want something / someone that is more old-fashioned and traditional, and all I want is to be valued by who I’m with. I just want to be valued, loved, and taken care of; and to do the same for her, like I’ve tried (imperfectly) to do for W. Loved for who I am....not who I could be, or loved only to a point. Where we make sacrifices for each other—not to keep score, but to seek the good of each other and our relationship.

[SteveLW]

Interesting topic. I sometimes feel like you Bo. My W had been in long-term relationships her whole adult life. When we met she had just had a bad breakup, she was approaching 30, and desperately wanted kids. I come along and she was hesitant at first. She was drawn to me because I was different. I was a non drinker, pious and talked differently (no cussing, etc). We started as friends, and then one weekend she fell hard. From that moment I was a prince in her eyes. Could do no wrong. She hung on my every word. She wanted to do nothing unless it involved me.

Married two years after that. Daughter born (after one miscarriage) 4 years later. We have tried on and off over the years for another child but it never happened. We had the hiccup in 2005 with her EA when I got brooding and distant due to my feeling entitled and hurt at lack of sex. After we got through that things got back to where she loved and respected me. But then I started brooding and distancing again as the SSM came back.

The point is that sometimes I feel like I was a means to an end. She got the marriage. The house (houses at the moment!). And a baby.

I feel like once she had all that, her mixed feelings returned, she for bored, and was ripe for someone who was exciting again.

[ovrrnbw]

Steve, I know just what you mean. I don't know if it's true that she just chose you for those reasons, but it's hard to not to think it sometimes. I get those same thoughts. And we never really get to know what they think. And somehow we have to decide to live our livesand make our choices anyways.

The may I learn, read, and talk to people the more it seems like everyone is messed up in one way or another. So we make the best of it and make the best of ourselves.

[lost8]

Your threads are the best Steve, a lot of good info sharing other than keeping a newcomer from umping off a bridge. I feel that once us LBSs get through the initial shock and awe we can really look at our bigger sitch. Yeah there were things we could have done differently in our Ms both H and W, but honestly I think there are just people out there that have bigger issues than NGS, or got bored, etc and one spouse will just always be in hibernation until the next A.

My W too came out of a bad marriage when she met me and I was her knight in shining armor....but at some point she wanted more excitement. Now 19 years later see she probably needed 2 As up to now to chase a fantasy life to escape her depression from being abused as a teen. Looking back and looking now I don't think there is anything I could have done to prevent the As or more in the future. I just look at all the medications W has been on since we met and although maybe just mild anti depressants, there is still unaddressed underlying issues that I/we are not equipped to handle.

However these sitches and our WWs have opened our eyes and had us look within to better ourselves and although painful, I am almost starting to feel thankful that this is happening now while I am still able to look for happiness elsewhere.

[Cadet]

I feel like once she had all that, her mixed feelings returned, she for bored, and was ripe for someone who was exciting again.

Yeah - looking for an external factor to pull her out of her perpetual depression.
Until she looks within, to solve her depression, the running continues,
to look for something, anything that will make her happy.

That is destined for failure.
Cause it is not external things causing the issue,
it is all internal.

[SteveLW]

I feel like once she had all that, her mixed feelings returned, she for bored, and was ripe for someone who was exciting again.

Yeah - looking for an external factor to pull her out of her perpetual depression.
Until she looks within, to solve her depression, the running continues,
to look for something, anything that will make her happy.

That is destined for failure.
Cause it is not external things causing the issue,
it is all internal.

Agreed. And medication just masks it. So Cadet......what does that mean for me?

[Terapin]

I feel like once she had all that, her mixed feelings returned, she for bored, and was ripe for someone who was exciting again.

Yeah - looking for an external factor to pull her out of her perpetual depression.
Until she looks within, to solve her depression, the running continues,
to look for something, anything that will make her happy.

That is destined for failure.
Cause it is not external things causing the issue,
it is all internal.

Agreed. And medication just masks it. So Cadet......what does that mean for me?

Hey Steve. I probably missed it, but is your W on medication? While meds often do 'mask' the actual problem, they can be helpful to control emotions and anxiety, and allow someone to focus on addressing the actual problem. If someone is severely depressed, emotional, etc, they likely aren't going to be able to deal with the causes. Just my 2 cents

[lost8]

Meds for depression are great, at least what I am seeing with my W. Bigger issue is they have to want to address the underlying issue. As much as I would like to push, we have spoken so many times that we cannot fix our spouses anymore. In the past I would have told her what she needed to do and helped her, etc....now she is on her own.

[Cadet]

So Cadet......what does that mean for me?

I think this is a good answer

Bigger issue is they have to want to address the underlying issue.

So all you can do is put up your own boundaries and keep living your life.



Steve what is it that you want from your marriage that is lacking?

I mean besides that your wife would take care of herself.

[SteveLW]

Steve what is it that you want from your marriage that is lacking?

Nothing I can think of. I guess security? After 2 EAs occurring 12 years apart, I am always waiting for the other shoe to drop.

[Cadet]

I am always waiting for the other shoe to drop.

To quote Reagan "Trust but verify"

I think the only thing that can cure that is TIME.

[ovrrnbw]

Steve,

you felt secure before the first EA right? Do you think there's a way to get that back, with any woman?

[SteveLW]

ovr, I think Cadet is right. Time heals all wounds. She has done a complete 180. The verification I have done has shown this. The problem is with me more than her at this point.

[TBSakaJ9]

S - The author of NMMNG has a series of really great podcasts out about how your life should be your cake and your w/partner/girlfriend or whoever should be the frosting. Whether she is in or out you will have a great life no matter what. Your partner should never be your main focus rather someone that enhances your life. I say this because if you are unsure of things, your feelings, etc. maybe it is a good opportunity to put your efforts into all those things that you enjoy that don't involve your W. Maybe that will help you get the additional time you need to become more comfortable, confident, and secure.

[neffer]

You need to be patient there Stevie. And you know that...

It´s up to you to consider if the result will be worth the effort. I think it will, definitely.

[SteveLW]

S - The author of NMMNG has a series of really great podcasts out about how your life should be your cake and your w/partner/girlfriend or whoever should be the frosting. Whether she is in or out you will have a great life no matter what. Your partner should never be your main focus rather someone that enhances your life. I say this because if you are unsure of things, your feelings, etc. maybe it is a good opportunity to put your efforts into all those things that you enjoy that don't involve your W. Maybe that will help you get the additional time you need to become more comfortable, confident, and secure.

Very good stuff. Yes my cake has been full. I continue to GAL and do all the things I enjoy. I guess I am just expecting someone to come along again at some point and start to lick the frosting off. I do not give her a pass in any of this, but in both cases she was pursued by OM. [censored] we live in a world where few live by the commandment: covet not your neighbor's W. Nowadays it is as if the mentality is: "There is a married woman....challenge!"

I guess infidelity is nothing new. Look at David and Bathsheeba.

[Cadet]

You know maybe a deeper dive into forgiveness might help.

To forgive her you must also forgive yourself.

All of this takes time and major work, it is not a simple thing for sure.

[SteveLW]

You need to be patient there Stevie. And you know that...

It´s up to you to consider if the result will be worth the effort. I think it will, definitely.

Admittedly patience has always been an issue for me. Which is why I ended up in my sitch to begin with.

I've learned a lot more in sitch #2 than I ever did in sitch #1. So I am going to lean on that learning to help avoid sitch #3.

[Mach1]

So Cadet......what does that mean for me?

I would like to see you dive into some of those questions I asked you earlier....

And even though you HATE HATE HATE social media....

I assure you that I'm not asking you for that, so that I can see pictures of your pet Sasquatch...

[Mach1]

So I am going to lean on that learning to help avoid sitch #3.

I can tell you, that #2, #3 , #4 , #5...

None of them will matter, if YOU aren't where you wanna be.

You are figuring that out now...

Life isn't all unicorns and rainbows after the affair, or just because she changes her mind today.

TBH ??

I feel that a lot of this is based on your expectations, of what things should look like, instead of taking them at face value and building together what the future of #2 looks actually looks like.

Trying to apply principals of the #1 into #2 and so forth.

Kinda like you wouldn't go into a car dealer, and buy a new car, only to have them install your old engine in it, because you think it will last another 20 feet or so....

Just because there is a comfortability, doesn't mean that their should be a complacency....

That's why I asked the questions, and also about the social media site....

Love isn't about what you receive, it's about what you give.

Do you love your daughter because she gives so much to you ??

Or because of what you give to her ?

[SteveLW]

So Cadet......what does that mean for me?

I would like to see you dive into some of those questions I asked you earlier....

And even though you HATE HATE HATE social media....

I assure you that I'm not asking you for that, so that I can see pictures of your pet Sasquatch...

I don't have accounts with any SM...and I am not going to create one. It isn't that I don't trust you Mach1. It is just that I don't want to patronze SM in any way.

[SteveLW]

So I am going to lean on that learning to help avoid sitch #3.

I can tell you, that #2, #3 , #4 , #5...

None of them will matter, if YOU aren't where you wanna be.

You are figuring that out now...

Life isn't all unicorns and rainbows after the affair, or just because she changes her mind today.

TBH ??

I feel that a lot of this is based on your expectations, of what things should look like, instead of taking them at face value and building together what the future of #2 looks actually looks like.

Trying to apply principals of the #1 into #2 and so forth.

Kinda like you wouldn't go into a car dealer, and buy a new car, only to have them install your old engine in it, because you think it will last another 20 feet or so....

Just because there is a comfortability, doesn't mean that their should be a complacency....

That's why I asked the questions, and also about the social media site....

Love isn't about what you receive, it's about what you give.

Do you love your daughter because she gives so much to you ??

Or because of what you give to her ?

Mach, the quote about love being what you give is great! Thank you for that reminder!!

Agree with everything you said. I can honestly say that I am in a good place. I am where I want to be. And there will never be a sitch #4 or #5. Because I am where I want to be, if she were to BD #3 me, as I've told others, my response would be, "Okay, so how quickly can you be out of the house?" I am in a much better place within myself.

I also appreciate the comfortability vs complacency point. Very good. I think I can honestly say that while we are more comfortable I have not become complacent. And I won't. Ever again.

[Mach1]

Agree with everything you said. I can honestly say that I am in a good place. I am where I want to be. And there will never be a sitch #4 or #5. Because I am where I want to be, if she were to BD #3 me, as I've told others, my response would be, "Okay, so how quickly can you be out of the house?" I am in a much better place within myself.

I also appreciate the comfortability vs complacency point. Very good. I think I can honestly say that while we are more comfortable I have not become complacent. And I won't. Ever again.

Tryin to convince me ?

Or yourself ?

[Mach1]

I don't have accounts with any SM...and I am not going to create one. It isn't that I don't trust you Mach1. It is just that I don't want to patronze SM in any way.

Your call buddy...

Just pretty sure you are gonna need an ear sooner, rather than later...

Although, I must ask..

Why the hostility toward SM ??

I mean, it's not like you are on a public forum, exposing your deepest inner emotional pain or anything....right ?

[SteveLW]

Agree with everything you said. I can honestly say that I am in a good place. I am where I want to be. And there will never be a sitch #4 or #5. Because I am where I want to be, if she were to BD #3 me, as I've told others, my response would be, "Okay, so how quickly can you be out of the house?" I am in a much better place within myself.

I also appreciate the comfortability vs complacency point. Very good. I think I can honestly say that while we are more comfortable I have not become complacent. And I won't. Ever again.

Tryin to convince me ?

Or yourself ?

A little of both? LOL One thing I am sure of now is that you can never be sure of anything.

[SteveLW]

I don't have accounts with any SM...and I am not going to create one. It isn't that I don't trust you Mach1. It is just that I don't want to patronze SM in any way.

Your call buddy...

Just pretty sure you are gonna need an ear sooner, rather than later...

Although, I must ask..

Why the hostility toward SM ??

I mean, it's not like you are on a public forum, exposing your deepest inner emotional pain or anything....right ?

Exposing your deepest inner emotional pain is easier done anonymously than in plain sight.

[neffer]

Love isn't about what you receive, it's about what you give.

A beautiful headshot.

[Mach1]

Agree with everything you said. I can honestly say that I am in a good place. I am where I want to be. And there will never be a sitch #4 or #5. Because I am where I want to be, if she were to BD #3 me, as I've told others, my response would be, "Okay, so how quickly can you be out of the house?" I am in a much better place within myself.

I also appreciate the comfortability vs complacency point. Very good. I think I can honestly say that while we are more comfortable I have not become complacent. And I won't. Ever again.

Tryin to convince me ?

Or yourself ?

A little of both? LOL One thing I am sure of now is that you can never be sure of anything.

Is it workin for you ???

Cause I'm not really buying much of it..

I think you are just as confused by this as anyone reading along might be.

One day you are heartbroken, the next reconciling,the next you are unsure if you are reconciling, the next thinking about leaving yourself, the next you are happy again, then worried about another bomb, no wait..I'm happy and in a good place....

WTF ?


Again....did you answer my questions ??

And just FYI, I don't really need the answers, they are for you....

However, I can tell from most of your words that you glossed over them pretty quickly.

[Mach1]

I don't have accounts with any SM...and I am not going to create one. It isn't that I don't trust you Mach1. It is just that I don't want to patronze SM in any way.

Your call buddy...

Just pretty sure you are gonna need an ear sooner, rather than later...

Although, I must ask..

Why the hostility toward SM ??

I mean, it's not like you are on a public forum, exposing your deepest inner emotional pain or anything....right ?

Exposing your deepest inner emotional pain is easier done anonymously than in plain sight.

Why yes, because anonymous means a lack of accountability also...

And just to be clear...

IF an EA is with an anonymous person, then it doesn't count as an EA ??

That's some pretty advanced WAS logic there....

[Mach1]

Love isn't about what you receive, it's about what you give.

A beautiful headshot.

Okay, this made me laugh...

[SteveLW]

I don't have accounts with any SM...and I am not going to create one. It isn't that I don't trust you Mach1. It is just that I don't want to patronze SM in any way.

Your call buddy...

Just pretty sure you are gonna need an ear sooner, rather than later...

Although, I must ask..

Why the hostility toward SM ??

I mean, it's not like you are on a public forum, exposing your deepest inner emotional pain or anything....right ?

Exposing your deepest inner emotional pain is easier done anonymously than in plain sight.

Why yes, because anonymous means a lack of accountability also...

And just to be clear...

IF an EA is with an anonymous person, then it doesn't count as an EA ??

That's some pretty advanced WAS logic there....

I never said that.

[SteveLW]

Agree with everything you said. I can honestly say that I am in a good place. I am where I want to be. And there will never be a sitch #4 or #5. Because I am where I want to be, if she were to BD #3 me, as I've told others, my response would be, "Okay, so how quickly can you be out of the house?" I am in a much better place within myself.

I also appreciate the comfortability vs complacency point. Very good. I think I can honestly say that while we are more comfortable I have not become complacent. And I won't. Ever again.

Tryin to convince me ?

Or yourself ?

A little of both? LOL One thing I am sure of now is that you can never be sure of anything.

Is it workin for you ???

Cause I'm not really buying much of it..

I think you are just as confused by this as anyone reading along might be.

One day you are heartbroken, the next reconciling,the next you are unsure if you are reconciling, the next thinking about leaving yourself, the next you are happy again, then worried about another bomb, no wait..I'm happy and in a good place....

WTF ?


Again....did you answer my questions ??

And just FYI, I don't really need the answers, they are for you....

However, I can tell from most of your words that you glossed over them pretty quickly.

Mach, i can assure you that at the time I read them I gave them my full attention. Yes I answered them for myself. I am not sure if I was ever unsure we were Ring, but admittedly this last year has me unsure of much in life. Did you see my quote from the Queensryche song "I Don't Believe In Love"? "She said she loved me, I guess I never knew....but do we ever, ever really know?"

So do I have moments of being unsure? ABSOLUTELY! Does that mean I am walking around in despair? Not at all. Does it mean that I it causes me to keep from being becoming complacent again, like I was pre-BD? Absolutely.

As far as thinking leaving myself, yes, I did struggle with that. Not really sure where that came from. I really have no complaints about how our relationship is now. I guess I was focusing too much on her lack of housekeeping, being a bit lazy, etc. I was doing the exact OPPOSITE of your "love is what you give, not receive" head shot. I am back now to focusing on loving and giving, rather than brooding and wanting to receive. I was never in a bad place, just having pangs of regret at how I handled BD and the immediate aftermath.

Note, not sure if you read my thread carefully or not, but when I was going through that her intuition detected that something was wrong and she was distraught. Despite my insisting it was just my issues I was working through, and that she need not worry, she was very worried. A year ago she wouldn't have given two craps.

So are we in a better place today? Much better. Is it all unicorns and rainbows? No! It is marriage. It requires care and feeding.

Based on my words, which of your questions do you believe I glossed over?

[Mach1]

And just to be clear...

IF an EA is with an anonymous person, then it doesn't count as an EA ??

That's some pretty advanced WAS logic there....

I never said that.

Not saying that you did...

I just posed the question to you...

[Mach1]

Based on my words, which of your questions do you believe I glossed over?

It's just a feeling that I get when I read you Steve. And yes, I have read all of your threads...

I don't walk away with the impression that I get from a man with confidence about himself in the situation that he is going through, or in your case, has gone through.

I don't get the sense that you are confident in how you feel, or why you feel, or even if you feel them.

When a man first meets a Woman that he is attracted to, there is nothing that will keep them from swinging on a grape vine, beating on their chest, and screaming to the world their love for that Woman....

In a much lesser, yet no less important show of affection, I don't get that from you.

The "why" in that, could be a number of things.

And hear me out here....

Posting here is great when you are going through the battle. You learn to detach, and how to stand on your own again, how to block out the noise, and to not believe what you hear, and about half of what you see.

It teaches you to really take a look at yourself, and respect your space, choices, and life on your own.

What it doesn't do very well, is to teach about the re-connection during reconciliation.

Or forgiveness after the affair. Forgiveness for her, or moreso even more important.....yourself.

How to believe, how to trust, how to feel again...

What it also does, is it keeps you stuck in all of that ^^^^

You read and post to others, and same as most WAS...

Truth is what you feel inside..

OPS becomes your own, and while it might not apply to you specifically, some how it morphs into it..

Dude, from the beginning, have been a valued beacon of light for many posters here. Prolific at times now...

Even in the beginning, when you were wrong or unsure, you held your ground on your morals and convictions....

I challenged you about the SM because I wanted to see your conviction about it..

The same conviction I want to hear about your marriage with, your love for her with...

And I don't feel in your words about your marriage today....

You love your daughter profoundly, and I know that because I sense it in your words....

Yet I don't see that when you talk about the marriage.

I feel like there was a blip in the marriage(again), it took some time, she's back, things go back to normal, rinse-lather-repeat...

When I challenge you, all I get is the "I can assure you" part..

From past experience, when I get told to "trust me" , or "I can assure you" line ??

What have you been up until that point ??

Untrusting ??

Unassuring??

And just like you said, we are anonymous, so all I have to go by, are your words, and patterns of words.

What you type, is what I know about you.

And I get the feeling at times, that you are trying to convince that you are fine. You may very well be, I just don't believe you yet....

I am on your side buddy, I hope you realize that...


Sooooo

Do you trust ??

Do you believe ??

Do you feel ??

Do you forgive ???

Do you love ???

[SteveLW]

Wow. That is a great response. And very insightful and profound. It gives me some great things to look at and to work on. You're right about all of this. No question about it.

I am a naturally untrusting guy. And if you burn me once it's even harder. Twice I usually write the person off. Forever. The fact I didn't do that proves to me that I deeply love her. She has even commented on that. But you're right, for dinner reason I hope back. Pride? Stubbornness? Selfishness? Some or all of those?

Thank you, as always for your insight. And your candidness.

[Ready2Change]

Posting here is great when you are going through the battle.
.
.
.
What it also does, is it keeps you stuck in all of that ^^^^

I agree.

There are new skills you need to learn now. Hard to learn multiplication and division while showing everyone how to add and subtract.

I know your sitch turned around quickly. I believe that is a double edge sword. I have very loosely been following your thread.

Can you summarize status of your R for me?

[Mach1]

I am a naturally untrusting guy. And if you burn me once it's even harder. Twice I usually write the person off. Forever. The fact I didn't do that proves to me that I deeply love her. She has even commented on that. But you're right, for dinner reason I hope back. Pride? Stubbornness? Selfishness? Some or all of those?

I think its a combination of all of those things...

Pride has certainly doomed a relationship or 5 million before. It certainly could be a part of this one...

Stubborness ?

Yea, I mean it could be confused for being steadfast, or ironclad in your morals and convictions...

Selfishness ??

You certainly seem to be a generous and giving person here...

However...

You aren't the person that you are here, at home..

The anonymity is gone at home, and you are left with a stripped down Steve

My guess is, and the reason I asked the questions...

WHY are you prideful ??

WHY are you stubborn ??

WHY are you selfish ???

My best guess would be fear...

Fear of being divorced

Fear of being embarrassed

Fear of failing

And to maybe an even greater degree ??

Fear of succeeding....

What are you so afraid of ???

Think about these buddy, along with with re-reading my questions from the last thread...

Because until you can answer those and be totally honest with yourself...

How much do you really know about you, so that you can give yourself to her ???

[Mach1]

Posting here is great when you are going through the battle.
.
.
.
What it also does, is it keeps you stuck in all of that ^^^^

I agree.

There are new skills you need to learn now. Hard to learn multiplication and division while showing everyone how to add and subtract.

I know your sitch turned around quickly. I believe that is a double edge sword. I have very loosely been following your thread.

Can you summarize status of your R for me?

Hey R2....

Been meaning to say this for a while now...

It's really good to see you kickin up dust here again...

Always enjoyed your posts....

[Gordie]

Listen to Mach1

[Ready2Change]

Hey R2....

Been meaning to say this for a while now...

It's really good to see you kickin up dust here again...

Always enjoyed your posts....

I can't save every marriage, but if anything I do helps save at least one, I believe the effort is worth it.

[Phoenix9]

I can't save every marriage, but if anything I do helps save at least one, I believe the effort is worth it.

You haven't helped save my marriage, R2C. That's TBD.

More importantly, you are a part of the many here on this board who have helped me save my LIFE.

[FlySolo]

My guess is, and the reason I asked the questions...

WHY are you prideful ??

WHY are you stubborn ??

WHY are you selfish ???

My best guess would be fear...

Fear of being divorced

Fear of being embarrassed

Fear of failing

And to maybe an even greater degree ??

Fear of succeeding....

Wow .... this ^^^^ really hit me hard. One of the questions that replay a lot is what is stopping my H from coming home. I know that he wants to come home (he is always here), I know that he loves me and still feels connected to us but he just can't take that step ... and then I read this, and it just, well, it just sounds like truth to me.

All relationships are a leap of faith. A willingness to put yourself out there and fail. But, sometimes the past is too heavy and it weighs us down.

I feel for you Steve. For the R to work you have to both be willing to put yourself out there and make yourself vulnerable to it failing. Leap of faith, right?. I can appreciate, after what you've been through that you feel the need to protect your heart. I can't offer much advice - proceed with caution, consider whether you are willing to forgive, and if you are, then commit to forgiving her and put the past behind you, and if not, then what's the point ...

I also wanted to say thank you for all your input to my sitch. It is much appreciated.

[LoneWlf]

Hey steve,

I just got caught up on your sitch and see that you have hit a rough patch in the last little while. Having seen you responses to the others I feel you are in good control of your emotions and actions. You come here to help others freely and share your wisdom openly. I feel that you are definitely a man of substance and will be able to navigate these difficult times. My prayers are always with you! Blessings!

[TJT]

I can't save every marriage, but if anything I do helps save at least one, I believe the effort is worth it.

You haven't helped save my marriage, R2C. That's TBD.

More importantly, you are a part of the many here on this board who have helped me save my LIFE.

*Insert double crying emoji*

[SteveLW]

Posting here is great when you are going through the battle.
.
.
.
What it also does, is it keeps you stuck in all of that ^^^^

I agree.

There are new skills you need to learn now. Hard to learn multiplication and division while showing everyone how to add and subtract.

I know your sitch turned around quickly. I believe that is a double edge sword. I have very loosely been following your thread.

Can you summarize status of your R for me?

We are reconciled at this point. We are in piecing. Things are going along very well. I did have a moment last month where I was questioning if I should have reconciled. I am not sure if all LBSs go through that after a while of Ring and piecing. I was surprised how strongly this feeling was. I thought it would be more of an urge, but wow, I was literally at a couple of points very close to blowing things up. (Note, when I say "very close" it is relative. I would always come here first to get talked down off the ledge.)

Also, a couple of months ago I got the urge, maybe related to the feelings of regret at not having taken the out, to snoop on her. She is fully transparent now so snooping was very easy to do. I found absolutely nothing. Her words and actions have all been very consistent since last spring. Also when I first started going through the feelings I mentioned, she was very concerned. Talked about how great things have been, what had changed, why I seemed distant? And this was despite my best efforts to hide what I was dealing with. I took advice here and told her that I was dealing with somethings, trying to make heads or tails of it, and that I would talk to her about later.

On a long car ride I did have a conversation with her about how I was dealing with some feelings of being unsure about things related to what happened the year before. (This all coincided with the 1 year anniversary of BD.) She was very apologetic and remorseful. I hadn't seen that from her since our MC ended in July. It was one of the best conversations we ever had. I haven't said this here yet, but I think that conversation, and how great she was through it and since it, really helped those feelings I was having to subside.

That's pretty much it. We continue to be in-sync, connected, and things are going very well.

Listen to Mach1

ALWAYS! He is awesome. Asks great, probing, thought-provoking questions.

[SteveLW]

Hey steve,

I just got caught up on your sitch and see that you have hit a rough patch in the last little while. Having seen you responses to the others I feel you are in good control of your emotions and actions. You come here to help others freely and share your wisdom openly. I feel that you are definitely a man of substance and will be able to navigate these difficult times. My prayers are always with you! Blessings!

Thanks LW. AS I told R2C, the intensity of the feelings I was feeling took me by surprise. Luckily due to my learnings, and this forum, I was able to work through all of that to get back to a good place. And thanks for the prayers, they are greatly appreciated!

[SteveLW]

I am a naturally untrusting guy. And if you burn me once it's even harder. Twice I usually write the person off. Forever. The fact I didn't do that proves to me that I deeply love her. She has even commented on that. But you're right, for dinner reason I hope back. Pride? Stubbornness? Selfishness? Some or all of those?

I think its a combination of all of those things...

Pride has certainly doomed a relationship or 5 million before. It certainly could be a part of this one...

Stubborness ?

Yea, I mean it could be confused for being steadfast, or ironclad in your morals and convictions...

Selfishness ??

You certainly seem to be a generous and giving person here...

However...

You aren't the person that you are here, at home..

The anonymity is gone at home, and you are left with a stripped down Steve

My guess is, and the reason I asked the questions...

WHY are you prideful ??

WHY are you stubborn ??

WHY are you selfish ???

My best guess would be fear...

Fear of being divorced

Fear of being embarrassed

Fear of failing

And to maybe an even greater degree ??

Fear of succeeding....

What are you so afraid of ???

Think about these buddy, along with with re-reading my questions from the last thread...

Because until you can answer those and be totally honest with yourself...

How much do you really know about you, so that you can give yourself to her ???

All great questions. Once the house sells I will get back in to C and explore all of this. Fear is a good description for a lot of my motivations. She is only the 2nd person I've ever let get this close to me, and I was burned badly by the first. And have been burnt by her as well. For someone that has trouble trusting out of the gate, that definitely has an impact.

Fear of vulnerability was the first thing that came to mind when I was reading your post. And your last question is very profound. We both want to get back into MC as soon as the house sells. MC was awesome at helping us reconnect. And we'd like to continue with that to give us tools to stay connected.

[SteveLW]

New thread:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2834658&#Post2834658