I can't believe I am here, but here I am. Surreal but you already know that. Here are the particulars of my sitch that I think might be most important, but I will fill in any blanks of course:
I am 51 and my W is 39, together for 12 years and married for 8, two kids (7 & 4). We are both white collar pros with busy careers. Both Type A but W much more so - I have mellowed with age thankfully.
All was pretty solid in the M until after D(4) was born, when W began to find fault with my level of effort in co-parenting and began to ramp up the criticism. I stepped up my efforts, and tried to work with her on a plan to divide domestic duties. The result of my efforts to take some of the load off of W was just more criticism based on things not being done correctly or adequately in her view - everything from grocery shopping to paying the bills to wiping the counter to loading the dishwasher, always a complaint. As a result, she simply began taking over the running of the household and I let her.
That is not to say that I laid down on this without conflict. W's criticism was typically delivered with what Gottman calls a "hard" or "harsh" start, was often mean-spirited, nasty, sarcastic and belittling. I always reacted by defending myself in a strong way. My typical responses often included statements to W that "it's not necessarily what you're saying, it's your tone", "if you attack me like this how do you expect me to react", "it seems like you're just trying to start a fight", "are you just trying to make me feel bad about myself" and "do you think this is how spouses should talk to each other?" Things were so bad when my D(4) was an infant that I told W I could not take it anymore, that she needed professional help to address her nastiness, and that I could not go on like this. Within a week or so later I cooled, I told her I loved her, did not want a D but that she had to tone down her criticism in a major way.
I had seen glimpses of the nasty part of her personality while we were dating but it was few and far between and not directed at me. After she started it with me, I had many subtle exchanges with her parents and siblings and unequivocally confirmed that she has always had a major mean streak. One of her best friends gave me the ol "good for you for not taking her s___t". Getting this information made me feel better that I was not imagining things but also made me feel bad that I was now in deep with this person. I was pretty unhappy.
With two very young kids I could not imagine not being there every day and night and I took D off the table. My "strategy" was to keep standing up for myself and counterpunch to stop the attacks. I withdrew emotionally and physically in the process. I am Alpha and went overboard with it, crossing the line and being a jerk, feeling that I was in a power struggle for who was top dog in the M. I also was conditioned to receive criticism constantly, so when I came home from work I was just waiting for the first strike to come my way from W, and was ready for a fight. After awhile, I began to hear criticism in many benign statements from W, where "did you wipe the table down" sounded like "why haven't you wiped the table down yet?" I would get defensive in those moments as well.
Another thing that was going on was a blame-game by the W that I could not understand. If I was driving her car and something went wrong with it, it was my fault, as if I had caused it. If the computer crashed while I was using it, it was my "fault" it happened. I "must have done something" to cause the problem. Very very frustrating.
All this is not to say I am perfect. I have read the Must Be This Tall to Ride blog and the descriptions of husbands who drop the ball in many ways does fit me to a degree. I am not sure how much I can attribute my shortcomings to me withdrawing from the M due to the criticism versus other causes. Regardless of cause the W would say she runs the household and carries the vast weight of responsibilities for the kids, that I don't appreciate her or her efforts, that I am aloof and act like a jerk, that I am not attracted to her and don't even like her.
About 2 years ago I decided I really wanted to reconnect and get the M on track, but could not seem to get there on my own. We have had very limited sex since D(4) and I tried to ramp that up with little success. While I was struggling with how to try and reboot the M, I believe W was moving in the opposite direction and checking out. She had built up a wall and so had I, and I was stumbling around trying to find a way through 2 walls. W stated she was not happy and I said I wanted to make it work, but there is little doubt my efforts were for the most part pretty weak.
In 10/18 she told me ILYBINILWY, she saw no possible future for us, that when she makes up her mind that's it, that any efforts would be too little too late, no interest in MC, and D was happening. I did not cry/beg/plead but expressed my surprise even though things had not been good. W was incredulous that I was surprised. W states we are just roommates at this point.
Now that we are through the holidays we have started IHS and W is intent on moving as quickly as possible with property settlement, custody issues and finalizing D. My state is no fault with a 6 month timeline. Our interactions are very civil so far, but I can often feel contempt oozing from her pores. Not a very good feeling at all. I am very cool, calm, and going about my business, and advising W that I need time to come up with my plan for my future in light of the BD. She wants to get it done ASAP and told me not to try and drag it out with the hope that she will change her mind because it's not gonna happen.
GAL is no problem, I have always had one. For a guy who typically has it together and has a good game, I am pretty lost right now on what to do at the moment though. I have spent weeks reading this forum and it is so great, so many awesome people here with insight, but I just can't seem to fashion a plan for myself. I suppose the biggest problems I see is that I do not have NGS, no begging, no overpursuit, none of those types of common first-line issues that many have to immediately correct. I am the opposite, and so for 180 purposes I am really really lost. Giving the W attention, compliments, engaging in long meaningful discussions, even flirting, these would be 180's at this point but I'm not sure that's the way to go. Being aloof, overly mysterious and detached, short businesslike conversations, etc. would just be more of the same. And GAL is actually more of the same too. I feel like I have a major dilemma here in terms of what to do given who I have been in the relationship. I would love and appreciate any ideas in this regard, because I am floundering a bit here. In the interim I have been moderately friendly, cool and a bit withdrawn, which I am not sure is helping me or hurting me.
I know the overarching question may be do I even want a R with this woman, and I think right now the answer is yes I would like to get into MC and see what we might have. At least get to that point and see.
Regarding EA/PA/OM, of course I have my suspicions and I have snooped with no evidence. W denies but she would not admit now anyway. I can go full bore investigation as I have the resources, and if the good people here think that's the way to go I would look into it. I understand there may be a different play on a WW versus a WAW where no A is happening. Preferably I would come up with a gameplan that could be undertaken regardless of the sitch there.
Thanks for reading, and I'll answer any questions or give any additional details that might be helpful. Sorry to ramble but I just have to say that what is killing me most is the thought of my poor kids having their family blown up, it is like someone is tearing my insides out of my body. I have taken some big shots in my life and if it was just me, no prob, but this is my kids' life too. Thanks for any insight and guidance, very very much appreciated.
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Well.... you have spent 4yr in a tug of war that would be emotionally exhausting and draining on anyone. While its very impressive that you haven't begged or pleaded with your W you are still reacting emotionally to having the rug pulled out from under you. And, like anyone who fell off a boat into the water unprepared it's your instinct to grab and hold on to anything to keep yourself afloat.
You will get great advice here from lots of people who have been there and reached the other side whether it be with there M or moving beyond it. But, the best gift you can give yourself is to do the homework. REALLY... don't read through it and make a minor mental note. Sit down, write it out, say it out, follow up and revamp. And, keep doing the homework.
The very first thing you have to accept is that you can only change yourself. That's it.
You can decide how you want to interact with W. What's acceptable... what your expectations are, your boundaries, etc. What if you W never changes? What if the mean nasty person that everyone else including yourself has seen is who your W is??? Is that acceptable you to??? Don't expect because you change your W will change... Yes, sometimes it happens. When you begin to validate to her feelings rather than reacting negatively to her negative energy that over time your W may change as well but you cannot force her to change.
What you will find here is support to help you not to respond to triggers, how to guide interactions for a positive outcome but not necessarily a recon. This is not a sprint but a marathon!
Gekko,
Do the reading cadet linked. REad KC's words carefully. Good stuff in there!
180s and GAL is FOR YOU. NOT to try to save your MR. Saving your MR is out of your hands. You could do everything right and your W could still decide to fly the coop. DO NOT FOCUS ON HER. Focus on you, just like KC said. 180s aren't 180s to save your MR, they are 180s to be the best Gekko you can be. 180s are for your next relationship because your current one is OVER. All of the dynamics of your old MR you described should never be allowed into a new MR, whether that is with your W or someone new.
I too already was GAL prior to BD. Doubledown on it. Every minute you are not with your kids, you are BUSY BUSY BUSY. Do not fall into the trap we all do: "I was distant before BD, a 180 would be to be all over her." You can still be present, attentive, kind, engaged, fulfilled, pleased, happy WHEN you interact with her. But your goal should be as little interaction with her as possible.
SO many newbies get this wrong: It is about QUALITY of interaction....not QUANTITY. Do not chase her. She will run. The goal is to be a new man, to be mysterious. To pique her interest. But here is the rub....the minute she detects you are doing all this to manipulate her, it will fail. It will not work. So make sure you are only doing this for you. For your healing.
GAL. 180s. Detach. Become the best Gekko you can be. And let everything else fall into place.
Thank you for the links Cadet, having lurked here a bit I have already started with the reading, including working my way through DR, but I have a ways to go, including re-reads and then more re-reads. There is a lot to learn, and process, and I am sure some of it will not sink in right away. I am committed to the education.
Thank you KitCat. I could not get past the first line of your post without choking up, I have not envisioned the "tug-of'war" analogy but you pegged it right from the start. I feel battle-scarred. I believe the true Gekko, the one who was present during the first half of my relationship and in my life before, is inside of me but has been covered over with a callous. I'm not sure how deep it goes yet, I hope my DNA has not changed. I think not, but sometimes it feels that way.
Regarding my W, there is no future from my perspective if the toxic, aggressive, critical mean-spirited portion of her is not exorcised or at least toned down massively, much like in the first part of our M when it was noticed but not a frequent thing. I wonder about my ability to defuse it as opposed to exacerbate it, and wonder if my breaking the cycle of criticism-defensiveness-counterattack-stonewalling by not getting defensive and striking back would be enough. I think those may be issues for down the road, if it comes to that. For now I will be doing my homework as you say. And avoiding being triggered - I have done really well with that since BD - staying calm, very in control of emotions, and when appropriate not even responding to her veiled jabs.
My progression in the "jab-response" department has morphed over time from strong defensiveness/striking back, and instead I started using a sarcastic retort to W where I would respond to a jab with - "oh thanks, you're so sweet!" , or "you really know how to make a guy feel good about himself!" or "gosh you're right, I am so inept that I can't even wipe a counter down properly, what a loser". I have moved away from the heavier sarcasm and now it's just a smile, or completely ignoring the jab, or at most a less sarcastic humourous self-deprecation reply like "I'm thinking of signing up for that 2 day vaccuming seminar at Bed Bath & Beyond". I feel like I'm getting better at avoiding the triggers but any thoughts on how I am doing now or other ideas would be most appreciated.
Steve thank you for the input regarding the trap of the distant H becoming a pursuer as a 180, it technically is a 180 but I see the problem and I think you are right. I can't say that I'm not still concerned that W will eventually say I was just more of the same and never showed her how much I wanted her, but I can feel that what she really wants now is space in the R and the house and to just be done with me. So standing down for the most part surely appears to be the right move, and I am pretty good at that already so that is not a big challenge.
The bigger challenge is to "be present, attentive, kind, engaged, fulfilled, pleased, happy" as you say Steve, during our interactions. I know you are right. Doing this with someone who wants out NOW, who wants that ring off her finger and to be done ASAP, is tough stuff. There are moments when I think I am nailing it Steve, and then moments where I avoid eye contact and come across as detached (not in the DB sense) and I feel like at the latter times the W sees and feels this and thinks "more of the same" and that she is right to D. It is so damn hard to find the right move from day to day, moment to moment.
I have little doubt I will eventually emerge as an even better version of my prior self, but the issue is showing the full package to the W may be counterproductive in the sense that the old true me inside of the recent "MR me" might typically do or say things that run counter with how to deal with W in this circumstance - aka flirting, subtle touches, well-placed authentic compliments, thoughtful acts, etc. I feel like I may have to filter the "real me" and not be authentic to him to avoid making the wrong move with the W. Does this make any sense? How can I really be the me I want to get back to? I feel like I need to address this and get my head screwed on right. It seems like something has to give. Steve you say quality over quantity regarding interaction and that really hits home, thank you for that. I just need to work on what is quality for now, what to show and not to show. A work in progress.
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
Hi,
I am 51. Went through my Divorce about 10 years ago. Dated X 6 years, married for 12. Three kids (5,7,9 at the time). I have joint custody and I am now with a woman 9 years younger.
Read as many post by coach as you can. Start here:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=47467&Number=2057224#Post2057224I will re-read your post and reply with my thoughts.
Gekko, I've heard of this happening but it's kind of a role-reversal with you two. Normally it's the man who is on his best behavior during dating and turns into a passive/aggressive sarcastic ahole after M. In your case it sounds like that's your W. I guess my first question to you is do you really want back into that M? It sounds miserable. No matter how hard you try she is just verbally tearing you down at every opportunity, and now according to friends and family she has ALWAYS been that way. I think the best you can hope for in recon is more of the same. Is that really what you want?
My advice would be to pull back, detach, get out and GAL. Leave her alone. She may want to recon down the road, but if she does I would demand she go through intensive IC and MC first.
You mentioned you have GAL activities, what are they?
.....was just more criticism based on things not being done correctly or adequately in her view - everything from grocery shopping to paying the bills to wiping the counter to loading the dishwasher, always a complaint. As a result, she simply began taking over the running of the household and I let her.
Nothing is ever good enough. I lived that. Load the dishwasher and she complains that you put the forks with the spoons. The blue plates can't go next to the yellow plates.
I always reacted by defending myself in a strong way.
Do a 180 here. Stop defending yourself.
With two very young kids I could not imagine not being there every day and night
Another 180. Change your mindset that you will pull 50% of the parenting 50% of the time.
I am Alpha. I did not cry/beg/plead but expressed my surprise even though things had not been good.
Thank god.
crossing the line and being a jerk,
180 the jerk behavior. Treat her like a hostess at a restaurant or a clerk at a hotel.
180 here and "Drop the rope". No more power struggle.
W would say she runs the household and carries the vast weight of responsibilities for the kids, that I don't appreciate her or her efforts, that I am aloof and act like a jerk, that I am not attracted to her and don't even like her.
180. Start using words of affirmation. She will get angry. Do not let her anger deter you.
Hopefully you are in the master bedroom. If not, go back in tonight. You are alpha and sleep wherever you want.
H:"W, I decided I like the MBR. You are free to sleep where ever you want"
W is intent on moving as quickly as possible with property settlement, custody issues and finalizing D
.
Do not stand in her way. Agree with her. this is the best form of validation. "I agree, this is not working for me either. "
My state is no fault with a 6 month timeline.
A lot can change in 6 months. You can make significant personal growth changes during this time.
She wants to get it done ASAP and told me not to try and drag it out with the hope that she will change her mind because it's not gonna happen.
Agree with her. "I also want to get through this as fast as possible"
GAL is no problem, I have always had one. For a guy who typically has it together and has a good game, I am pretty lost right now on what to do at the moment though.
I believe Steve said double down on this. I cut back on my GAL and became supper dad. Enjoy every minute with kids. I would GAL when the kids were not home.
"Immerse yourself into your kids bubble. Stay out of wife's bubble. Let wife come into your bubble."
Giving the W attention, compliments, engaging in long meaningful discussions, even flirting, these would be 180's at this point but I'm not sure that's the way to go.
Not yet. You can test the compliments and the flirting, but I would do some intel gathering to see if their is OM. As long as you can handle the info you find. Never reveal your sources of intel. Never reveal WHAT you know, just that you do know.
Being aloof, overly mysterious and detached, short businesslike conversations, etc. would just be more of the same.
180 these. Be present when she engages you. Listen to understand. Do not argue. Test things and she if she responds different. You change the way you interact, forces a change in her response. Maybe not right away.
I know the overarching question may be do I even want a R with this woman, and I think right now the answer is yes I would like to get into MC and see what we might have. At least get to that point and see.
Timing is way off for MC. W has to be begging you to take her back, and MC will be one fo your conditions. This is way in the future.
Regarding EA/PA/OM, of course I have my suspicions and I have snooped with no evidence. W denies but she would not admit now anyway. I can go full bore investigation as I have the resources, and if the good people here think that's the way to go I would look into it.
Most suggest that you just assume there is and respond accordingly. Tarzan never lets go of one vine until he has a good grip on the next one.
From Ready2Change:
"Read as many post by coach as you can. Start here:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=47467&Number=2057224#Post2057224"
____________________________
Thanks R2C. Great thread link. Overall I am strong in the confidence department but think that W has lost respect due to her carrying the domestic load on many fronts - runs the kids lives, groceries, playdates, Dr. appointments, etc while also working. I definitely participate to a lesser degree and feel little credit is given however.
I not only survived but thrived into my late 30's before I even knew W existed - homeowner, nice cars, vacations, great career, financially secure, etc - which I am certain was attractive to her and many others - but get into a M and have a few kids and all of sudden I can't cook a pot of rice without supervision. Just so weird.
The irony is I was capable and willing to be more involved domestically but my apparent inability to do things sufficiently led to her just taking over, and I let it happen. W has said it is not so much that she carries the load, but that she felt I did not appreciate it. I probably didn't show her that enough, guilty as charged. That's a 180 now - validation of her efforts. I'm sure I didn't validate in the past due to being annoyed that she felt she could handle everything in a superior fashion.
Another point that may be key - after kid 1 came along I adjusted my mentality on career and decided to maintain cruising altitude (still pretty high) instead of continuing to ascend. I had chased $$ for years prior, and eventually found that the pay increases provided diminished returns on overall happiness and I wanted better balance and time for the kids. Still work 50 hrs a week anyway with great income but we live a large life in a very expensive area and I could not fund the W as a SAHM - I feel she may resent me for that. W has a great career and she is doing what I was doing at her age - still ascending and focused on $$, a very money motivated lady who now out-earns me. Could be another source of lack of respect.
Physically I still look really good, well-dressed, zero weight gain, but far fewer gym days and less healthy eating. Since BD I am back in the gym 3x week and back on with better eating habits, feels great but again maybe some lost respect in those departments over the past 4-5 years.
I suppose if she respected me and was attracted to me I would not be here, so this is another area to work on. Thanks R2C!
AS,
No I don't want that M anymore, Steve is right that M is done. Is there another R with W that would look and feel more like the original pre-kid one? Or better? Not unless we both change. Will my changes have an effect on W? If I believe in It Takes One to Tango, than maybe. That's kind of where I'm at. I get it though - I change for me and let's see what happens later with her.
As for my GAL, we have the 2 kids so I am ramping up my independent time with them - projects and games at the house and park and activities outside the house. One of the frustrating things is that they are still pretty young and really into the W and seem to prefer time with her, which hurts but its always been that way. I'm doing what I can to get that 1x1 time though.
Outside of kid stuff, I am ramping up my nights out with friends, from a few nights a month in the past to weekly now - usually after the kids are down. Local music, hanging over a friend's house for a few beers, etc. Planning on some bigger things as we go forward - concerts, weekend away with some friends, etc. It's just a little tougher because of the kids, so a good portion of GAL will involve them. I'm trying to schedule some events - dinners, hikes, camping - with some dads of the kids friends - kind of a daddy-kids thing, no mommies. Also i'm back in the gym lifting weights (used to be a huge gym rat) and getting a new mountain bike and joining a few dads I met through the kids on some trails. Again, I want to GAL but balance it with kids time, I know you get it.
Steve said BUSY BUSY BUSY and I really buy into that. When I was a single guy I was BUSY times 100 and every girl I dated was more drawn to me for it. It was always just a matter of giving them just enough of my time and not a second more, unless things were really getting more serious. Even then, I was BUSY times 10 instead of 100. Quality of interaction over Quantity. So true.
One more thing AS:
W has a lot of positive qualities and is viewed by most as a great catch (including me at least until a few years ago), beautiful, great shape, successful, social, on and on. She has that nasty streak that really [censored], but that is not 100% of who she is. There are a lot of great qualities in the mix, but when the nasty comes out it is bad.
I am no choir boy and I want to make sure I am not overplaying a victim card here - I have many positive qualities and do believe I am a great catch as well, but I have the capacity to be an ahole depending on the circumstances. If I am challenged, criticized or attacked in a way that I deem confrontational or aggressive, I am going to counter with some level of force, using sarcasm, pointing out the hypocrisy of my attacker, challenging the truth of their position, on and on. I am working on a better way to be in these circumstances. Work in progress.
I have culpability for the demise of the M. To an extent I do have characteristics of the "Shytty Husband" - neglect, indifference, head in the sand, self-absorbed, lack of intimacy, etc. I haven't parsed out how much is just me and how much was a reaction to W's personality issues. Maybe that dissection is for down the road? Regardless of the cause, I want to correct all bad behavior on my part.
Are you sleeping in the master bed room?
R2C thanks for your detailed thoughts a few posts back, that is really helpful input.
Regarding the MBR, yes I am in it and W just moved to a guest suite after her sister and her husband cleared out after visiting for Christmas. W wanted the MBR for the IHS, I told her I was not moving out of the room and that we had 2 other empty bedrooms to choose from. She was seething. Truth be told the guest suite she is in now in is huge and pretty awesome, friends and family joke it is better than the MBR, but I get the symbolic nature of me asserting control over the MBR. It was easy to do as I am Alpha and the more agitated she got the more calm came over me.
W really wants me out of the house but I told her very calmly and assertively that I have not decided what my plan is as far as future living sitch and that I am not moving right now and perhaps not at all. I told her she is free to do whatever she needs to do to get her space, including moving out herself. This led to a brief discussion regarding future plans for the house, which we both want and both agree would be best to keep for the kids as it is the only home they have ever lived in. The issue is going to be the buyout as we have owned the home for 7 years, bought it at the bottom of the RE crash and we now have massive equity. To be continued on this front.
Read through my quotes threads, start with thread 3:
Link to quotes threadThese guys are wise:
Coach
gucci loafer
Allen A
Puppy Dog Tails
Thank you R2C there is a lot to absorb there, I am still reading.
Last night W brought up telling the kids within the next few weeks, I said I would need to think about that as we have no set plan moving forward yet. She wants to tell them so she can then tell her family and basically get the word out that D is happening.
W also wants to get moving on deciding who keeps the house and division of assets, and wants to mediate instead of lawyering up. I told her I am not ready to do so at this time as I have to evaluate what is best for the kids and my own financial future and life.
Any input on these subjects would be great thank you!
I said I would need to think about that as we have no set plan moving forward yet.
Perfect.
She wants to tell them so she can then tell her family and basically get the word out that D is happening.
She wants to introduce her new man to her family, but she can't do that until you are divorced. I would bet money that she has a male "friend" at work. Several months after the D, she will claim she has met someone. We can discuss this more later.
W also wants to get moving on deciding who keeps the house and division of assets, and wants to mediate instead of lawyer up.
If she bring this up again, agree with her that mediation should be used for things that you can't agree about. If she pushes for quickness:
H:"W, obviously you have thought about this for a long time. I need time to process everything. I want this to go as smoothly as possible."
You should get legal advise ASAP. Draw up a list of questions. Call the top 3 D lawyers in your area and get a free consolation with each, but pay for them if needed. 1) this answers your questions. 2) Most likely prevents W from retaining them. Your W may be acting nice, but you know the other side of her.
Look up the legal definition of "pro se". Ask the lawyers if an email agreements between you and W are legally binding.
I told her I am not ready to do so at this time as I have to evaluate what is best for the kids and my own financial future and life.
Perfect.
Outside of kid stuff, I am ramping up my nights out with friends, from a few nights a month in the past to weekly now - usually after the kids are down. Local music, hanging over a friend's house for a few beers, etc. Planning on some bigger things as we go forward - concerts, weekend away with some friends, etc. It's just a little tougher because of the kids, so a good portion of GAL will involve them. I'm trying to schedule some events - dinners, hikes, camping - with some dads of the kids friends - kind of a daddy-kids thing, no mommies. Also i'm back in the gym lifting weights (used to be a huge gym rat) and getting a new mountain bike and joining a few dads I met through the kids on some trails. Again, I want to GAL but balance it with kids time, I know you get it.
Awesome! Either you come by DB'ing naturally or you are picking it up really quickly, but you are definitely doing all the right things. Well done.
W has a lot of positive qualities and is viewed by most as a great catch (including me at least until a few years ago), beautiful, great shape, successful, social, on and on. She has that nasty streak that really [censored], but that is not 100% of who she is. There are a lot of great qualities in the mix, but when the nasty comes out it is bad.
Not sure if you've read NMMNG but strangely SHE sounds like the one that has NGS in your relationship! Appears to be the perfect little wifey to everyone else but treats you like dirt behind closed doors.
I am no choir boy and I want to make sure I am not overplaying a victim card here - I have many positive qualities and do believe I am a great catch as well, but I have the capacity to be an ahole depending on the circumstances. If I am challenged, criticized or attacked in a way that I deem confrontational or aggressive, I am going to counter with some level of force, using sarcasm, pointing out the hypocrisy of my attacker, challenging the truth of their position, on and on. I am working on a better way to be in these circumstances. Work in progress.
Yeah I do get the sense you are owning your part of it and working on that which is great.
Regarding the MBR, yes I am in it and W just moved to a guest suite after her sister and her husband cleared out after visiting for Christmas. W wanted the MBR for the IHS, I told her I was not moving out of the room and that we had 2 other empty bedrooms to choose from. She was seething.
Of course she was, how dare you not cave to her every whim and demand! You did the right thing, as you said even if the alternate is more comfortable for her it is a big symbolic move.
W really wants me out of the house but I told her very calmly and assertively that I have not decided what my plan is as far as future living sitch and that I am not moving right now and perhaps not at all.
Good. My ex did the same. I told her that I wasn't going anywhere, it was my home and if she wanted to abandon the marriage then that was her choice to make and I wasn't going to try and stop her. But I certainly wasn't going anywhere, and if she decided to stay then she needed to do so with the understanding that she would work on the M. She did choose to leave of course, but I'm glad I kept the house. I'm an architect and have done a lot of very personal hands-on work to the house over the nearly 20 years I've been in it. Why should I be the one inconvenienced by having to find somewhere else to live, and lay awake at night wondering if some scuzzy OM was sleeping in MY bed in MY bedroom washing my wife's sex off of himself in MY shower. No, that was not going to happen, EVER.
I told her she is free to do whatever she needs to do to get her space, including moving out herself. This led to a brief discussion regarding future plans for the house, which we both want and both agree would be best to keep for the kids as it is the only home they have ever lived in. The issue is going to be the buyout as we have owned the home for 7 years, bought it at the bottom of the RE crash and we now have massive equity.
Yes, that was another thing is the house was home base for the kids so that was another reason to remain there. It was their place of comfort. We bought it in a new development and over the course of our M it doubled in value. It was paid off well before we got D'd. I had to take out a mortgage on it to pay my ex her half of everything. Get this, the mortgage amount was identical to the penny to the original mortgage amount. So I was quite literally starting all over again, except this time paying everything by myself. Man that irks me, LOL! Still, like I said I'm glad I stayed in it. No regrets at all.
Thanks very much R2C and AS.
I am going to book a sit-down with a lawyer and get some initial insight into my sitch. W wants to play nice and amicable and if we can agree to terms that's great, but I am not signing shyt without an experienced lawyer taking a look. I deal with a lot of contracts in my business and W knows I am a stickler for details and look at every sentence, word and period 100 times before I'm done.
On the house thing I am jealous of you AS, while we have a ton of equity we still have a big mortgage and I'm not sure that I can pay W off and handle a refi payment. W can't either, but her parents have $$ and I am betting they will pony up for her to buy me out. Good for the kids to keep the house, bad for me as I have no family resources. Not giving up yet but not looking good.
Can't argue with R2C that W's "new" guy is going to magically appear shortly after D. The further we progress toward D the less impact busting her will be I guess. I need to make a move regarding investigation really soon if I'm going to do it. I notice a lot of people indicate they have made the bust - is there a common preferred method? I never have an opportunity to grab her phone so I am guessing it is PI or voice recorder (illegal where I live). I could do a PI for a few days but unless she has a lot of contact every week with the possible OM it is kind of shot in the dark.
I'm living about halfway across the country from all my family and that is pretty tough. Distance is not as hard when things are going great. I do have a lot of awesome friends and plenty of GAL opportunities, but I would kill to have some family close these days. They don't know yet and they are going to be rocked as divorce does not run the family. Not sure how I even can get through a phone convo with them, it will be excruciating. But it's going to happen, this whole thing is going to happen how it will, and I am going to end up soaring into the future.
I need to make a move regarding investigation really soon if I'm going to do it. I notice a lot of people indicate they have made the bust - is there a common preferred method? I never have an opportunity to grab her phone so I am guessing it is PI or voice recorder (illegal where I live). I could do a PI for a few days but unless she has a lot of contact every week with the possible OM it is kind of shot in the dark.
Most of the time it is advised not to snoop because the LBS is not able to emotionally handle the pain from what they find. I know some people have forgotten to take a cell phone out of silent mode after fully charging it and accidentally left it in the family car that their spouse normally drives. They used the goggle tracking feature to find it and noticed the car had gone to some unexpected places.
.[/quote]Most of the time it is advised not to snoop because the LBS is not able to emotionally handle the pain from what they find. I know some people have forgotten to take a cell phone out of silent mode after fully charging it and accidentally left it in the family car that their spouse normally drives. They used the goggle tracking feature to find it and noticed the car had gone to some unexpected places.[/quote]
Well I have been a bit forgetful lately...
Had a great GAL day today, worked on some fun projects at the house with the kids, hit the gym for a massive workout, then met a few friends at the shooting range with a few beers after. Neither friend knows about the coming D. Great to hang out with the fellas and talk smart, good for the head and the soul.
No R talk with W, but the issue of telling the kids will likely be coming up again very soon. I’m considering setting up a consult with a child psychologist to discuss how to tell the kids, let W know about this and say she can join if she wants. It’s only the most crushing conversation we will have with the kids, should be really well thought out. Any thoughts on this approach?
Also, is there a consensus opinion on whether I should take lead on all the action items to come, like selecting a mediator, finding a RE appraiser to give a home value, proposal for splitting of assets, proposed custody schedule, etc? As an Alpha I am prepared to take control, but if I should lay back and tell W it’s all on her to do everything and I will evaluate the info she provides I can play it that way. I am certainly not planning on initiating forward momentum on any of these issues, but I just want to have an idea of the right strategy when W presses to move forward.
No R talk with W, but the issue of telling the kids will likely be coming up again very soon. I’m considering setting up a consult with a child psychologist to discuss how to tell the kids, let W know about this and say she can join if she wants. It’s only the most crushing conversation we will have with the kids, should be really well thought out. Any thoughts on this approach?
Sounds like a great plan.
There have been many discussion about this topic here as well. Search through twofeet thread.
Also, is there a consensus opinion on whether I should take lead on all the action items to come, like selecting a mediator, finding a RE appraiser to give a home value, proposal for splitting of assets, proposed custody schedule, etc? As an Alpha I am prepared to take control, but if I should lay back and tell W it’s all on her to do everything and I will evaluate the info she provides I can play it that way. I am certainly not planning on initiating forward momentum on any of these issues, but I just want to have an idea of the right strategy when W presses to move forward.
I believe your strategy is to do things based off your core values. Do things that Protect your Kids, Yourself and that relationship first, and then protects W, and finally protects the Relationship with W.
I believe most let the wayward spouse do the "Heavy lifting". I am not sure if that is the best decision for everyone. I think the important part is evaluating all your choices. Conciser the pros and cons of each. Make a decision, and life with the consequences of your choice.
What are the pros/cons of you taking the lead?
Negotiate right off the bat:
Find 3 mediators that you think would be good, ask wife to pick one, or suggest 3 different one for you to pick from.
H:"W, I know we will disagree about some things going through this. I believe it is best that we agree on a mediator up front. I found 3 that I would be willing to use. Do any of these work for you? If not, please supply me a few that you would be willing to use and I will consider them. "
Thanks R2C. I believe I am going take the lead on each issue. W has pressed for some progress and step one is telling the kids. I will therefore advise W that I want to consult with a psychologist first and she is welcome to join.
Regarding who gets the house, it is doubtful W or I have the capacity to buy each other out, but her parents have the means to help her buy me out and that is likely what will happen. I am not in a rush to get to this point as my monthly expenses will rise dramatically once we settle. The extra expenses are inevitable, but every month we have IHS is more money I can save.
I find myself fluctuating between being friendly with W, cracking the occasional joke to which she laughs, but later being withdrawn and cold. When I am the latter, W comments to the effect that this is more of the same from me. I don't feel like I am pulling off the "be a man she would be crazy to leave" enough of the time. I need to defrost more. It's hard because not only am I not an overt pursuer, but in all prior R's I have had the air of "if you don't want me somebody else surely will" and "there's the door if you want out" mentality. Not intending to pursue here at all, just need a defrost.
I’m considering setting up a consult with a child psychologist to discuss how to tell the kids, let W know about this and say she can join if she wants.
Overkill. Be strong, tell the kids frankly and gently.
Obviously you can do and think what you want, but does a strong man need a psychologist to tell him how to talk to his children?
I also can see your W taking this as you blaming her or shaming her.
Thanks ovr. I think W is concerned about how the conversation will go and afraid that I will throw her under the bus. Not happening that way. I am not planning on expressly saying "WE have decided", probably going to go with something more vague. MWD wrote an article on this very issue, where she addresses the conflict facing the LBS in adapting a misleading narrative. It's a fine line to walk, but when in doubt I think to err on the side of whatever is best for the kids is the answer.
Just don't lie. The WS will want to blame shift or try to come out smelling like roses despite being the one who likes to wallow in the sty. Kids aren't dumb, they will figure it out, so don't base your R with the kids on a lie. Read my sitch, telling the kids was one of the worst days of my life. I don't buy into the kids are resilient B.S. W and I have been pretty amicable as far as kids go, but they still feel the effects. Hell S3 believe it or not is starting to say things that are heartbreaking and act uncharacteristically. Read RyanHun's sitch his D was having all sorts of problems. Its the long term effects you don't necessarily see now that bother me. Once you BD your kids get them some therapy. Unless there is something like abuse and the safety of the kids at risk, then the kids are the real losers. Just my opinion.
TF - thank you. Zero chance of me lying or misleading in some way. If my W's hyper-critical and controlling behavior continues into the kids' adolescence, they may begin to appreciate what I went through. I take no pleasure in it whatsoever. It's very conflicting however as she is a great mom in many respects and they really favor her so far. That hurts but it's true.
I also don't buy the "resilient kid" BS, but in DBing fashion I can only control me and will do the best I can do in my time and R with them. Damage control and working hard to make lemons out of lemonade. My heart breaks for them but i'm a rock for them. ROCK.
“I also don't buy the "resilient kid" BS, but in DBing fashion I can only control me and will do the best I can do in my time and R with them. Damage control and working hard to make lemons out of lemonade. My heart breaks for them but i'm a rock for them. ROCK.”
This. I have a real hard time believing the whole ‘resilient kids’ idea. But yes, DB’ing is about controlling myself and building myself up for them. Thank you for the reminder.
Thanks Bo.
My W knows that D is going to be hard on the kids, and the fact that she is pulling the trigger is an indication of how unhappy she is/has been in the M. She is a child of divorce and she made it through okay in her mind so that probably helps ease her mind a little. Of course I believe the stat is that M with one spouse being a child of divorce have a 50% increase in divorcing, and when both spouses come from divorce it is a 200% increase. That is pretty ugly but not surprising. Culture of divorce.
I had an incredible life before I even knew W existed and I will be getting back to that scenario, except it will be a much more full and rewarding life with my two amazing kids along for the ride. Not fooling myself, I am going to have to walk through the fire first and take the pain. But it will be like a scene from a Terminator movie, I can take every shot and explosion and emerge from the fire and keep marching forward. I am impervious and unstoppable.
Hi Gekko,
I am Alpha and went overboard with it, crossing the line and being a jerk, feeling that I was in a power struggle for who was top dog in the M. I also was conditioned to receive criticism constantly, so when I came home from work I was just waiting for the first strike to come my way from W, and was ready for a fight. After awhile, I began to hear criticism in many benign statements from W, where "did you wipe the table down" sounded like "why haven't you wiped the table down yet?" I would get defensive in those moments as well.
So, have you found any 180's? Have you had opportunities to interact with W differently?
I would put my current 180's into 3 categories:
Successful 180's:
1. Validation:
Regarding current sitch:
"I understand this is painful for you"
"I don't believe you have made this decision lightly"
Regarding other issues (work & family), where I would tire quickly of W's incessant complaints and withdraw:
"Wow that is frustrating!"
"What was he thinking?!"
"I can't believe she did that!"
2. No More Defensiveness in response to W's criticism and jabs. Now responding to snide comments/sarcasm/veiled put-downs in one of three ways:
Just a Smile
Me - "My kids are so smart!"
W - "They must get it from mommy"
Me - Just Smile
Witty Comeback
W - (the backseat driver) "do you need me to drive?"
Me - touching the console - "where is the ejector button for the passenger seat?"
Completely Ignore - for all sitches where I have no quick witty comeback or a smile won't do.
3. No More Counter-Strikes - "Me?, what about you and …….!" No more.
4. Avoid Arguments/Debates. Not trying to be "right" or "win". Always calm, always level.
5. Increase Leadership and Domestic Involvment. Took kids to the doctor for check-up, scheduling other kids appointments and activities, will lead through the D process.
6. Increase Thank-u's and Appreciation. Thanking W and showing appreciation for her domestic efforts and any other helpful acts.
7. Establishing Boundaries. W has micro-management and control issues in addition to her other traits, and cannot resist from interceding, whether I am dealing with a kid tantrum or trying to cook a pot of pasta. Hovering, interrupting and directing. In response I now use "please let me handle this", "thanks but I've got this", "please stop interrupting" , etc.
180's In Need of Work:
1. Defrost - need to thaw and not be cold, distant and withdrawn. Years of being flooded by W's personality sent me into the deep freeze. It's going to be a process to get back to the man encased in the ice block. This 180 is my biggest challenge and is probably at the forefront of what W notices.
2. Smile More.
3. Better Eye Contact.
180's Not Being Employed Yet (thoughts on if they should be???)
1. Physical touch. Initiating zero touch at this time.
2. Affection/flirting. Not doing any of this currently.
3. Compliments on Physical Appearance - not complimenting unless W asks my opinion on an outfit - my response "you look great".
Looks like you are on the right track.
As far as compliments, look up ways to compliment a woman without mentioning her looks. Eluding to her ability to find clothing that compliment each other for example.
Google something like this:
how to compliment a woman without mentioning her looks.
Thanks R2C, another great link.
I had an exchange with W last night about transporting S(7) to a party this weekend. I was pretty terse for no apparent reason in telling W I would be handling the event. W commented how my tone was confrontational but that she shouldn't be surprised about that anymore. W says I can't see how I am coming across. I know I need to break this habit. It's not an all-the-time thing but it's counter-productive. It has grown out of years of a toxic communication dance with W involving criticism, defensiveness, and power struggle between and alpha male and alpha female.
I need to tone down the alpha, drop the tug-of-war rope on the power struggle, relax, soften, be pleasant and just be nice to W during the mostly mundane communications. This is my Achilles Heal, my epic 180 challenge. I feel like one instance of me being unnecessarily terse completely wipes out ALL progress with the many other 180's I am doing well with. It's that bad in my mind. It's more of the same to W and it reinforces her decision to D. I feel like I can backslide on a 180 like "Increased Thank You's and Appreciation of W" without a huge effect, but there is no margin for error on my 180 to Defrost and Be Pleasant.
I'm shaking my head at myself right now.
Gekko, good list! I agree with R2C on the compliments. Avoid anything related to appearance or "sexiness". Compliment her on her work skills, or parenting skills, what a great friend she is to others, things like that.
Good- "That's awesome that you helped your friend with her daughter when she was sick, I bet she really appreciates having a great friend like you."
Bad- "Wow your boobs look huge in that!" ;-)
You know what to do then. Make the 180. I bet YOU will feel better for it, and be a happier person.
I feel like one instance of me being unnecessarily terse completely wipes out ALL progress with the many other 180's I am doing well with.
It kind of does. It's crazy how quickly the good deeds can be forgotten when you revert to an old, ingrained behavior that reminds her why she is leaving. 180, 180, 180.
I need to tone down the alpha, drop the tug-of-war rope on the power struggle, relax, soften, be pleasant and just be nice to W during the mostly mundane communications. This is my Achilles Heal, my epic 180 challenge.
Good! That is some excellent introspection!
I feel like one instance of me being unnecessarily terse completely wipes out ALL progress with the many other 180's I am doing well with. It's that bad in my mind.
Yes we all have thoughts like that. But no single thing got you here and no single thing is going to alter the course either. You got here through months or (more likely) years of your W feeling neglected. Turning it around takes months or years of changed behavior. Don't beat yourself up over the past, just keep moving forward!
It's more of the same to W and it reinforces her decision to D. I feel like I can backslide on a 180 like "Increased Thank You's and Appreciation of W" without a huge effect, but there is no margin for error on my 180 to Defrost and Be Pleasant.
It's never too late to do a 180. Whether you do a 180 the day after BD or 10 months after doesn't really matter because brother, you already got BD'd. So ANY 180 is an improvement, right? Think of it this way, over time you are showing your W more and more 180's. If you hit her with them all at once then they would just look fake. But slow improvement over time looks more genuine.
W commented how my tone was confrontational but that she shouldn't be surprised about that anymore. W says I can't see how I am coming across.
H:"W,I am sorry. Thanks for pointing that out. That was not my intention. Bla bla bla bla bla. Does that sound better to you?"
[/quote]
Gekko, good list! I agree with R2C on the compliments. Avoid anything related to appearance or "sexiness". Compliment her on her work skills, or parenting skills, what a great friend she is to others, things like that.
Good- "That's awesome that you helped your friend with her daughter when she was sick, I bet she really appreciates having a great friend like you."
Bad- "Wow your boobs look huge in that!" ;-)
Thanks AS. In general I want to make W feel good about herself. I will focus on insightful compliments when the opportunity presents. No forced or contrived compliments, she will see right through them. And nothing about appearance unless she asks for an opinion.
You know what to do then. Make the 180. I bet YOU will feel better for it, and be a happier person.
I feel like one instance of me being unnecessarily terse completely wipes out ALL progress with the many other 180's I am doing well with.
It kind of does. It's crazy how quickly the good deeds can be forgotten when you revert to an old, ingrained behavior that reminds her why she is leaving.
180, 180, 180.
The behavior is indeed ingrained. I 2x4 myself as the words come out sometimes. I guess many of us have our hard-case 180's that we wrestle with, this one is mine. I do know what to do and need absolute consistency with it. Stop being a terse ahole for no reason other than to wave the alpha flag. Being alpha doesn't mean being an ahole. Don't conflate the two. Get it together man!
I feel like one instance of me being unnecessarily terse completely wipes out ALL progress with the many other 180's I am doing well with. It's that bad in my mind.
Yes we all have thoughts like that. But no single thing got you here and no single thing is going to alter the course either.
You got here through months or (more likely) years of your W feeling neglected. Turning it around takes months or years of changed behavior. Don't beat yourself up over the past, just keep moving forward!
YEARS. Oh yeah, most definitely YEARS.
It's more of the same to W and it reinforces her decision to D. I feel like I can backslide on a 180 like "Increased Thank You's and Appreciation of W" without a huge effect, but there is no margin for error on my 180 to Defrost and Be Pleasant.
It's never too late to do a 180. Whether you do a 180 the day after BD or 10 months after doesn't really matter because brother, you already got BD'd. So ANY 180 is an improvement, right?
Think of it this way, over time you are showing your W more and more 180's. If you hit her with them all at once then they would just look fake. But slow improvement over time looks more genuine.
AS this is a really good and important point I think. Not to go too over the top with Super H 180's in her face. Don't be contrived, be organic. It's nuanced I believe. I need to modify my communication style but it has to come out naturally, not scripted. Fake it til you make it but "make it" ASAP. Ingrain the new and improved into the fibers of me.
So I was listening to a podcast this a.m. with two very well known M therapists regarding Attraction. They agreed that when a W reaches the point of disgust/repulsion, they do not see R's come back from that. If a W is indifferent, that can be overcome, but not disgust. Too far gone. One of them described the WAW scenario where the W has grieved the end of the M for quite a while, has completely detached, and that recovery from that does not happen. My W just two days ago used the word "disgust" when describing her feelings, and I could see in her face that it was true.
Feeling kind of down right now as the deep hole I'm in is becoming more apparent. The podcast is not going to stop me from DBing, and it actually had a number of great tips that I will use going forward. I think what I heard in the podcast, while initially disturbing, may ultimately help me to truly detach.
Sorry to be a downer with this post.
They agreed that when a W reaches the point of disgust/repulsion, they do not see R's come back from that.
Probably b/c they encourage their clients to pursue and be open and honest while they pursue a person who is currently feeling disgusted. But WAS didn't always feel that way, and feelings can change. Usually it's the LBS who won't get out of the way and let those feelings come back.
Believe nothing you hear and only half of what you see isn't just for cheating spouses, it's for everyone you encounter.
Don't worry about that crap at all. Go get a life, be the best you, and be happy. Or be a downer and dwell on what you cannot change.
They agreed that when a W reaches the point of disgust/repulsion, they do not see R's come back from that.
Oh but they sometimes do. Read some of Steve's early posts to see what his W thought of him. Or TXHubby, his W was brutal to him. I have a friend whose W left him in complete disgust and moved in with OM. They sold their house, closed their business and went no contact for almost 2 years. Then she texted him out of the blue which led to more talking, dating and finally reconciling. I snooped early on after BD and found a message my ex had sent saying her worst nightmare was thinking about getting terminally ill and having me take care of her. WORST NIGHTMARE! We didn't recon but our relationship is vastly improved and much different than it was after BD, now she tells people about what a great man I am both with me present and behind my back. This is a small sampling of course, but my point is it does happen. Be very wary of people who speak in absolutes.
To change the way they feel about you, you must change the way they think about you.
How do you do that? Most of us vets give the same advice in different words. The easiest and very productive way of changing the way your WAS thinks about you is to - agree with them (validate), drop the rope (let them go), and GAL (take care of yourself, become interesting). When someone comes in my office and is upset about their account the easiest way for me to calm them down is to agree with them. Now they can't be mad at me because we are on the same side of the table. If I try to tell them why they shouldn't be upset (logic) how are they going to respond?
read more here:
Link
Thanks as always ovr, AS and R2C.
I am focused on refining my DBing and moving forward. Waiting for the W to initiate R talk again, doubt I will make it through the weekend before D-prep comes up, including telling the kids, who gets the house, custody plan etc. I will keep the board posted and be back to get more input.
I have run some numbers and there is no chance I can buy W out of the house. She has said one of us needs to keep it for the kids and I agree. I know her parents have $$ so I expect them to buy me out. It will suck hard to move out I will tell you that. I will have to step down to a much smaller, older place to be able to afford it in my town. Might have to rent for awhile as there is not much inventory for sale. I would hate to rent for a year or two and then buy, as the kids would just be getting used to my rental place when I pull them up and move them again. I'm still working through a strategy to avoid this outcome, I would like to make just one move and settle in for the long haul.
Waiting for the W to initiate R talk again, doubt I will make it through the weekend before D-prep comes up, including telling the kids, who gets the house, custody plan etc.
W:"H, bla bla bla tell the kids bla bla bla"
H:"W, I think it is best to tell the kids after we have a written parenting plan that we both agree about. Have you done any research on what would be the best for our kids considering their ages?"
in my case, X wanted the house. I did not. I agreed to move out of house once we had a 50/50 parenting plan in place.
365/2 = 182 days a year
1) week on week off works when the kids are older
We have exchanges Friday afternoon. IE the kids are ending the week with Mother and it is now fathers week.
2) We also have a "Dinner Visit" Is was on Tuesdays. Kids get off school and come to my house during her week, then go back at 830p. Not to many days in a row that the kids go without seeing the other parent.
This also worked really well for the work week. I could put longer work days in on tuesday/Friday one week, and longer days Mon/Wed/Thurs the next week. I would lean toward this if I were you. DO NOT MAKE THIS THE FIRST SUGGESTION.
There are other standard arrangements you can look at.
Always with you on Mon/Tues With W on Wed/Thur alternate the F/S/S 5/2 split.
Exceptions to normal:
Xmas Day/ Xmas eve (maybe longer period if you want to travel the see grandparents)
Thanksgiving
Birthdays (Kids/parents)
Fathersday/Mothersday
Thanks R2C. I am mulling over what I want to do about custody. I am hearing that kids that are the same age as mine do better with more frequent hand-offs (every 2-3 days) so they are not apart from either parent for too long. I think I want a set schedule every week so the kids are with me on the same days of the week consistently. This would require one day each week the W and I alternate. W has not proposed anything yet.
W did just ask if I would look into mediators and I said sure. I am going to talk to a L for me and also get some mediator recommendations. I am not anywhere near ready to mediate and will tell W so when I give her the names. Until I have decided what I want, there is nothing to mediate.
Otherwise, DBing is going well, I am not as frosty to W, cracking jokes
Hi Gekko. My H and I are going to try a 2-3-2 schedule. M,T with one parent, W,Th,F with other parent and Sat,Sun with the parent who had the M,T that week. Switches every week. i.e. H, H, W, W, W, H, H and the next week... W, W, H, H, H, W, W and then back to H, H... We’ll see how it goes...
Otherwise, DBing is going well, I am not as frosty to W, cracking jokes
(cont'd) and for the most part getting back to my normal self minus the defensiveness, playing music in the house, working on some home maintenance projects, hanging with the kids, working on the computer, walking around the house as I always have (as The King) and generally feeling pretty comfortable despite the looming D. Got out with some friends for beers, food and football over the weekend and it felt great. Lots of really beautiful women in my town, many at the venue we went to, lots of fingers with no rings...I know I know. But just being out in that environment did help my head space.
I know there is a rough road ahead, but I am going to enjoy as many positive moments along the way as possible.
Hi Gekko. My H and I are going to try a 2-3-2 schedule. M,T with one parent, W,Th,F with other parent and Sat,Sun with the parent who had the M,T that week. Switches every week. i.e. H, H, W, W, W, H, H and the next week... W, W, H, H, H, W, W and then back to H, H... We’ll see how it goes...
Thanks Deja! I will be checking back in with you to get your reaction after you have being on that sched for awhile. I'm thinking of trying to split the weekends so I get at least one F/SA night and either SA/SU day every weekend. It's a complicated deal trying to get 50/50 because of the 7 day week. Find myself yearning for an 8 day week to make it easier.
I am mulling over what I want to do about custody. I am hearing that kids that are the same age as mine do better with more frequent hand-offs (every 2-3 days) so they are not apart from either parent for too long.
My brother did a 2-3-2 split with his ex. His kids were pretty young at the time. He absolutely hated it. The kids were basically living out of suitcases and backpacks because it felt like they were always on the move. Because the handoff days were always switching from week-to-week they were constantly confused about when the handoffs were. They had trouble keeping track of homework too, because it would often fall across handoffs.
My ex and I did a weekly split. We did handoffs on Sundays. We still do with S16 since he's in high school. But we both loved it, the kids loved it, it always worked very smoothly for us. Handoffs were always very leisurely since it was on Sunday, we were never real strict with each other on the time, would let it float if needed. Most homework doesn't span the weekends so we didn't have to talk a lot about it at handoffs, but sometimes if there was a big project then we could cover it then. I have to travel for work sometimes so it was easy to check my schedule and coordinate travel with the weeks I didn't have the kids. A week at a time is long enough for the kids to feel "settled" too.
Regarding your comment about not being apart from a parent for too long, my ex and I had that discussion and agreed to allow one evening visit per week by the other parent. IE, if I had the kids then my ex could come take them one evening for dinner, or visit with them at my house or whatever. We actually had that written into the D decree. In actual practice we didn't use it much because the kids were all in sports, band, cheer, color guard, etc. So we both ended up seeing them a lot during the week anyway.
That's just the personal experience of my brother and me, your situation may be different. Just something to think about.
Thanks R2C. I am mulling over what I want to do about custody. I am hearing that kids that are the same age as mine do better with more frequent hand-offs (every 2-3 days) so they are not apart from either parent for too long. I think I want a set schedule every week so the kids are with me on the same days of the week consistently. This would require one day each week the W and I alternate. W has not proposed anything yet.
For what it's worth, My XW and I rotate the kids on a 3/3/4/4 schedule. It means I have them every Friday and Saturday night, but I havent really found that to be as much of a hindrance as I expected.
The best thing I did was suggest the "Drop off parent". IE who ever has the kids drops them off at the other parents house at "exchange time".
This eliminated waiting around for the kids at the other parents house when there is a "Pick up parent".
I also agree that the more exchanges, the more confusion. At the beginning we had some 2/3 variant. My youngest never knew were/when she was going. Always had to clarify.
I would see my kids all the time anyway based off of sports/band etc. One would be in the activity and the other 2 would float back and forth between me,X her parents and my parents.
Thanks for the input on the custody issue everyone, it definitely helps give perspective. Regardless of who moves out we are likely to live within 5-10 minutes of each other so that will help a lot.
Had a 15 minute convo with W last night (she initiated) about telling the kids about D that morphed into talking about the MR and its issues. I made some notes right after and I will post the dialogue here when I have more time to get everyones' thoughts.
I am also still contemplating whether to investigate if the W is having an EA/PA. I have been on the fence for awhile. I would not be surprised at all if she is in an EA, texting and talking and such. If she is in a PA, for the most part she would have to be doing it during the day as she is home every night. I have checked mileage on the car a few times and it has matched up with where she said she was going. I have also snooped text messages without anything turning up. My gut is telling me to go a bit further with my efforts and to be prepared to take the pain of finding something.
I am also still contemplating whether to investigate if the W is having an EA/PA.
What would change for you if she were in some kind of affair?
My gut is telling me to go a bit further with my efforts and to be prepared to take the pain of finding something.
If you decide to follow your gut, do some reading before making your final decision. Start with this poster
PuppyDogTails Click on "show posts" and WAIT. It takes a very along time for the page to load for some reason.
Here is one of his posts:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2039677#Post2039677
I am also still contemplating whether to investigate if the W is having an EA/PA.
What would change for you if she were in some kind of affair?
I can't predict exactly what impact it would have (beyond the emotion) and what I might do, but the possible big changes would be:
1. Financial: W has more assets and income due to stock options. If we part amicably (WAW instead of WW) I would say we each keep what is in our own accounts, I would not chase after any of her $$ (which is marital property). If she has been lying and cheating, I may be inclined to seek a 50/50 split, which may result in an extra $50K in my pocket and may impact my ability to keep the house.
2. Timeline: My overhead is going to go up by about $2500/month after D. Every month I delay I save that money. I might not be very agreeable to move things along is she has been cheating.
3. Living Arrangements: If she is having an A I would put the full court press on her immediately moving out.
4. Disclosure: I may expose the A, including to the W of the OM if he has one, as well as to our friends and family. I understand this may not be DBing but I would be looking hard at doing this.
5. Recon: Not sure if recon is possible for me if there is an A.
6. Overall Dynamic: the whole D dynamic changes if there is a verified A in my view. The story of the end of the M is completely different. How I would treat W would probably be much different. I will hurt more but might detach more quickly.
These are just some initial thoughts.
Thanks for the links R2C, looks like I have more homework!
Lots of homework. knowledge is power. The more options you are aware of, the better. Of course it makes choosing one more difficult.
My understanding is MWD is against exposure. If you still decide to go down that path, please read this thread before doing so:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2039619&page=all
If she has been lying and cheating, I may be inclined to seek a 50/50 split, which may result in an extra $50K in my pocket and may impact my ability to keep the house.
If she is having an A I would put the full court press on her immediately moving out.
How I would treat W would probably be much different.
It sounds like youre saying
"if W is having an affair, I would want to punish her."
Why do you think you feel that way?
Had a recent convo with W:
First, regarding telling the kids, she wants to tell them right away. I asked her what she was planning to say, and W said 'that we have decided to D, that we love them, etc etc." I said we have not decided anything, You decided. I won't lie or try to mislead them. W replied that we should not be blaming each other or talking poorly about each other, its not good for the kids and if forced she would explain that I treated her badly, that I was mean to her, and that she has been very unhappy. I agreed that we should not give the kids specifics, but said I will not lead them to believe this is my decision and that I want this. I told her she can say "we are getting D" as a factual statement, but not that we have decided to. I also told her this is one of the most important conversations we will have with the kids and I want her to write it down first so I can see it and edit it. We don't read from a script, but put it in writing so we can see how it sounds.
Regarding my treatment of her, I validated and expressed that I understand what I was doing, and the reasons behind it. W said she was not innocent and I asked how so. W said that "apparently" she has been a raging beeatch to me for years. I probably should have ratified that with a facial expression and a shrug and ended it there, but instead I said "that wasn't a very convincing admission". W then asked for an explanation of her behavior from my perspective. I recapped what I told her many years ago - that she has a nasty mean streak and criticized me relentlessly, that I asked her to get counseling and she didn't, that I asked her to talk to her family about this part of her personality with the hope she would listen to them when they told her yes, you can be horrible, but she never talked to anyone, and I told her I grew to be miserable, withdrew from her and developed some real ahole behavior as a defense mechanism. But that I realized now my response was not helpful to the M.
W said that my bad behavior pre-dated the time when I say she started her major criticism of me, which puts us pre-M. I asked why did you marry me? W said she didn't know. I took all this as WAW script but maybe I'm wrong. W then asked me if I thought the M could be salvaged, and I said I don't know. W said she does not believe it can be salvaged and doesn't understand why I don't feel the same way. I said that while I have tried to get things back on track, I could have done more, but that she wasn't trying at all. I said I don't know what the outcome would be if we both really tried. W acknowledged she has not been trying, that she believes I should have done the work over the past several years. That is where I let the convo die.
It was a very very calm discussion on both sides, almost clinical and matter-of-fact. I am expecting some 2x4's for getting into R talk but the W initiated and I responded. I didn't feel in the moment that I was saying too much, it was a pretty simple explanation of my view and just regurgitated convo's from long ago. I think W knows she has some issues but does not appreciate their extent and her impact on the people closest to her. I had and have no designs on trying to blame her to her face, but she seemed to want my take so I gave it to her as clinically and concisely as possible. I suppose the alternative is to deflect, but that didn't feel like the right play.
Anyway, looks like we will be telling the kids sometime over the next few weeks, I will keep the board posted.
There will be more convos. I put my two cents. Hopefully you can use some of this next time.
First, regarding telling the kids, she wants to tell them right away. I asked her what she was planning to say, and W said 'that we have decided to D, that we love them, etc etc." I said we have not decided anything, You decided. I won't lie or try to mislead them.
Perfect.
W replied that we should not be blaming each other or talking poorly about each other, its not good for the kids and if forced she would explain that I treated her badly, that I was mean to her, and that she has been very unhappy.
H:"W, I am sorry for hurting you in the past. Looking back, I can see how horrible my behavior was. I want us both to be happy."
I agreed that we should not give the kids specifics, but said I will not lead them to believe this is my decision and that I want this. I told her she can say "we are getting D" as a factual statement, but not that we have decided to. I also told her this is one of the most important conversations we will have with the kids and I want her to write it down first so I can see it and edit it. We don't read from a script, but put it in writing so we can see how it sounds.
Perfect.
Regarding my treatment of her, I validated and expressed that I understand what I was doing, and the reasons behind it. W said she was not innocent and I asked how so. W said that "apparently" she has been a raging beeatch to me for years.
My X wife uses "apparently". Someone has told her you called her this. Man up and apologize for this immature behavior.
H:"W, I am sorry I called you this. I was immature and frustrated. I see now that we were not communicating properly."
W then asked for an explanation of her behavior from my perspective. I recapped what I told her many years ago - that she has a nasty mean streak and criticized me relentlessly, that I asked her to get counseling and she didn't, that I asked her to talk to her family about this part of her personality with the hope she would listen to them when they told her yes, you can be horrible, but she never talked to anyone, and I told her I grew to be miserable, withdrew from her and developed some real ahole behavior as a defense mechanism. But that I realized now my response was not helpful to the M.
I think this is OK. Maybe less details about her. Your goal right now is to make her think differently about you. This will lead to her feeling different about you.
W said that my bad behavior pre-dated the time when I say she started her major criticism of me, which puts us pre-M. I asked why did you marry me?
H:"I have done some things in the past that I am not proud of. I am sorry"
W then asked me if I thought the M could be salvaged, and I said I don't know.
H:"I am not sure. I want us both to be happy. I believe we owe it to our kids to work on the issues that got us to this point. If it saves our marriage or not, it should at least help us co-parent."
It was a very very calm discussion on both sides, almost clinical and matter-of-fact.
Perfect.
If she has been lying and cheating, I may be inclined to seek a 50/50 split, which may result in an extra $50K in my pocket and may impact my ability to keep the house.
If she is having an A I would put the full court press on her immediately moving out.
How I would treat W would probably be much different.
It sounds like youre saying
"if W is having an affair, I would want to punish her."
Why do you think you feel that way?
I sure understand that how it seems. I think there are a few things going on with this mindset. I have always been a person who desires respect and conducts himself in a way to try and obtain respect. Generally, I have never subscribed to the oft-cited theory that respect must be first earned. I believe everyone's default should be to show respect and act accordingly. I understand the concept of loss of respect and how actions can cause this to happen, however. But certain responses to a loss of respect are never acceptable and I believe should receive consequences.
For instance, if I were to find out that one of my long-time trusted staff had been lying and cheating me on hours or in some other way, I would take that as a huge sign of disrespect - not only "how could you do that", but "how could you do that to ME". It's very personal. I would fire them immediately and have security escort them out. If I found out that a long-time trusted business partner was screwing me over on a deal, I would sue them for breach of contract and make them hurt as much as the contract terms allowed. This mindset flows from my issue with respect and my morality - I don't lie, cheat, steal or screw people over - ANYONE - let alone those closest to me. Doing so is the ultimate betrayal in my view.
Infidelity has always been a major trigger for me. I had an older female cousin who I was/am very close to, and when I was in college her husband cheated on her and left her. She was absolutely destroyed. I will never forget how she fell into my arms sobbing when she told me. I didn't know what to say or how to comfort her. I wrapped my arms around her and it felt like I was trying to hold a million fragments together. It was horrible. I can still feel that moment as I write about it now. I promised myself that I would never do that to another human being EVER. And I never have and never will. I just expect the same courtesy and enough respect to not have that done to me.
Sorry for the ramble. Not even sure if I really answered your question!
My general opinion is that most marriages are caused by some breakdown which is attributable to both parties. Nobody is perfect and everybody is adding some type of contamination to the relationship. I dont feel like it is a good spot to put yourself in to judge who is worse or what action is more or less contaminating. I think it's a much better place to own and repair your own attributes and fight for what you believe is fair.
This is from your first post.
I withdrew emotionally and physically in the process. I am Alpha and went overboard with it, crossing the line and being a jerk, feeling that I was in a power struggle for who was top dog in the M. I also was conditioned to receive criticism constantly, so when I came home from work I was just waiting for the first strike to come my way from W, and was ready for a fight. After awhile, I began to hear criticism in many benign statements from W, where "did you wipe the table down" sounded like "why haven't you wiped the table down yet?" I would get defensive in those moments as well.
So my understanding based on your most recent post is that if your W is having an affair, whatever that is trumps all else. That your morality of "not screwing other people over" goes out the window because she has hurt you? It feels very "eye for an eye" and I dont see that as a 180 for you. I dont see that as a way of being empathetic or collaborative.
I am not suggesting that what she may be doing is right. or fair. or compassionate. or anything like that. I am not condoning her (theoretical) actions. What Im saying is that it is a symptom of all of the underlying issues that you both have presented to the relationship. I think your focus is better placed on you and what you need to do going forward.
But that said, I think it may not be worst idea to gather 'intel' just to know what you are dealing with
Theres no sense in considering how to repair a relationship that has 3 people in it.
My suggestion would be just to start DBing. 180 on your bad behavior, yes. But also GAL. And detach! As MoveFrwd said, most marital breakdowns are the result of bad behavior on both Ss part. And that means that adultery is a SYMPTOM of that and not the cause.
Both people are unhappy. Someone of the opposite sex takes an interest in one of them. It is new and exciting. It makes them forget how bad their marriage is. At first they just try to keep it as a friendship, but as they share intimate details of each other's lives the attraction gets stronger, until they move to some shows of affections. Long, lingering, whole body hugs. Maybe a peck hello and goodbye on the lips. But it continues to escalate until the anticipation builds and they decide to cross the line into a full blown affair.
Notice the first step. Both people are unhappy. For context you should look up "Ways to affair proof your marriage". It is very helpful to look back and see the mistakes you made leading up to this point. Lack of connection. Stopping going on dates. Etc. The point is that we often laser focus on the affair, when if we try to fix the marriage itself, sometime the affair just goes away.
Even if your S is in an active affair, DBing is your path forward. It may save your marriage. It may not. But it will save you.
I did not cry/beg/plead but expressed my surprise even though things had not been good. W was incredulous that I was surprised.
It was a very very calm discussion on both sides, almost clinical and matter-of-fact.
I am expecting some 2x4's for getting into R talk but the W initiated and I responded.
she seemed to want my take so I gave it to her as clinically and concisely as possible.
Based off of these statements, I believe R talks are OK for you when SHE initiates. You sound like you are in control of your emotions.
One of you 180's is "Not being a jerk". Any time she brings up past hurt, be compassionate, do not justify, but rather apologize like the examples I gave you above.
Are my example statements TRUE statements for you? Speaking the truth is very important.
Thanks Steve and MF, your points are well taken. I feel like when I am DBing at my best I oddly don't seem to care about investigating an A. When the feelings of possibly being dissed arise is when I start to get amped-up to investigate.
Great link R2C and yes your comments and suggestions are spot-on.
I think I made my point concisely with W regarding my issues with her behavior, namely the nasty streak, harsh criticism, sarcasm and disrespectful and insulting comments. I know this may not be DBing to the letter but she asked for it. I planted the seed many years ago about this behavior and my suggestion that she ask her family for confirmation that she acted in such ways and to also seek counseling, none of which happened. And it may never.
W has never apologized to me for anything, ever, and it's not her way to admit fault, so I have zero expectations that she will ever really examine herself. Best of luck to the next fella...What I am interested to see is her family's reaction to the D and their comments to me. They have made many comments over the years about her mean streak so I'm guessing they will figure that is playing a role in the D. Not that it matters to the M, but their comments are some cold comfort that I am not insane or overly sensitive.
W made a few of her usual sarcastic jabs at me last night, the kind of stuff there is no reason to say other than to insult and put-down. She can't seem to help herself. I entirely ignored the first remark, which I am liking more and more as a response (the non-response response). After the second biting sarcastic remark, I just smirked a little and shook my head, after which she said "what?", pleading ignorance to how nasty it was. W then said that based on my reaction that she guessed we were not going to be friends. I said not when she talks to me in that way, and I left the room. She called after me twice but I ignored her and moved on with a project, and that was it. She needs some help for sure.
Would a detached person be investigating an ex's current flings? No. I say that's good that you can let that go.
And yea, are you friends with all of your exes? I would have told right there, I won't be ever be your friend, even if you stopped treating me like crap.
I like that you're keeping your cool, that's good stuff.
I hope you're getting out and getting active doing something too.
Would a detached person be investigating an ex's current flings? No. I say that's good that you can let that go.
Yes I take not caring to investigate as a sign of detachment. When I have that feeling 100% of the time I guess I will be fully detached. I'm certainly not there yet due to my fluctuations but it's a good sign that I am in that frame of mind some of the time. I'm on my way.
And yea, are you friends with all of your exes? I would have told right there, I won't be ever be your friend, even if you stopped treating me like crap.
W has made reference to being friends for the kids' sake several times. I have told her that we will be co-parents and hopefully amicable, but I wouldn't say "friends". I should have been stronger on that point this last time, I agree.
On this subject, I need go back and read DR and some threads here regarding thoughts on doing things with W and the kids, the four of us together. My gut inclination, and a pretty strong one, is not to. We will no longer be a family. I'm not sure it's better for the kids to play one. I'm guessing W wants to do things together to 1) try and make things easier on the kids, and/or 2) to ease the guilt she is probably feeling for blowing the family up. Maybe other reasons I haven't thought of. Cake-eating if she is in an A? Could be that too.
I like that you're keeping your cool, that's good stuff.
ABC, always be cool. Maintaining control in the face of W's shyt-tests and BS makes me feel fantastic.
I hope you're getting out and getting active doing something too.
GAL is going great, it is a bit more challenging with two young kids but I'm getting it done. I am getting plenty of time in at the gym, weekly meet-ups with friends for drinks or live music, some late work nights, projects at the house, and trying to get more alone time with just me and kids for portions of the weekend. I'm never just sitting around, I'm always either working on something or on my way out. This part has been easy for me as I had a busy life before, I am just ramping it up now. Part of my continuing GAL over the next month:
1. Keep hitting the gym hard - weights and cardio.
2. Get to the doc for a physical.
3. Get to the dentist for a cleaning and a touch of whitening.
4. Time for a haircut - keeping it short, definitely takes a few years off the appearance. Also doing some color conditioning at home to reduce the gray, takes another few years off.
5. Dermatologist for a skin check and to discuss face care regimen. Investing some $$ and effort into the face will pay big dividends,
6. Shopping for new clothes, business and casual, and workout gear. Don't forget about underwear and socks, it feels better to have new stuff. Couple of pairs of new shoes as well.
7. Weekend trip with the fellas.
8. Continue weekly dinner/drinks out with friends.
9. Schedule some fun stuff with the kids over the weekends, just me and them.
I will also keep the board updated as the D talks progress. I believe W still intends to tell the kids about the D this weekend, so as we get closer to Saturday I am sure I will start to spin a little.
Would a detached person be investigating an ex's current flings?
Are you still married? As a man and the "Protector" would it be attractive if you address anything that may be attacking your marriage?
And yea, are you friends with all of your exes? I would have told right there, I won't ever be your friend, even if you stopped treating me like crap.
I like this. I laso like PDT quote ="I have no intentions on
ever being your friend, especially when you have decided to cut and run like this."
On this subject, I need go back and read DR and some threads here regarding thoughts on doing things with W and the kids, the four of us together. My gut inclination, and a pretty strong one, is not to.
Mine to. especially in the beginning.
We will no longer be a family. I'm not sure it's better for the kids to play one.
H:W, You have made it clear that you have no intention on being married or addressing the issues that got us to this point. I have no intention to pretending that things are fine when they are not. I believe it is best if we bla bla bla"
The past few weeks have been crazy at work which has kept me off the board and also more limited face time with W which has been good. W is intent on moving forward with D and we will be telling the kids this weekend. We had two separate discussions about telling the kids which morphed into R talks. In both instances I recognized my bad behavior and its impact on the R, and addressed the dynamic of why I was acting as I did. I believe this will be the last time I do so as it has happened several times already and outside of MC/recon efforts I'm not sure how much more value there is in continuing to validate my shortcomings. Thoughts on this much appreciated - is there such a thing as too much?
W admitted she was probably critical of me and a beeatch at time but that it was only because she was fed up with me. So we have a chicken and egg situation. As the discussion flowed I tried to drill down into what is one of the main issues from my view - that regardless of the situation W spoke to me with such disrespect (sometimes blatant, sometimes veiled), sarcastic, snide comments, put-downs and insults that are never acceptable in a M. She hit me with - "I am just blunt" and "You are too sensitive". My response was that there is a difference between being "blunt" and being rude and disrespectful. She is not seeing it, and simply thinks we are a bad fit because I "don't get her". She said I need a more passive partner. I told her what I needed was someone who doesn't disrespect me in a nasty, snide manner.
I think I am just done with any R talks for quite awhile, even if W initiates, because my points regarding W's behavior have been made and my acknowledgment of my issues has also been made. Outside of MC I am just not feeling any more need to get into it. W did say that she would attend MC with me, but with the idea that it would help convince me that we are a bad fit and the M is over. I told her that I don't need a therapist to tell me what my W's position is, that I'm getting that straight from her.
W seems to be pressuring me to agree that D is mutual and that we will never work. I told her it is not mutual and that I don't know if the M can be saved or not because I have not given it my best shot and she hasn't made any effort in years. So she is on her own in the position that there is no hope. W doesn't like being in that spot alone. Too bad.
The reality is that the R will never work if she doesn't recognize the difference between "blunt" and flat out rude and disrespectful, doesn't learn to control her snide commentary, and fix the other problematic behavior. She has a lot of work to do but that is her journey if she chooses to go that route. I have serious doubts she ever will, because she is never wrong or at fault. She doesn't apologize. She is who she is in her mind and that's that. I'll help her change however I can if she ever gets to that point, but I can't wait around life is too short especially since i'm on the wrong side of 50.
In both instances I recognized my bad behavior and its impact on the R, and addressed the dynamic of why I was acting as I did. I believe this will be the last time I do so as it has happened several times already and outside of MC/recon efforts I'm not sure how much more value there is in continuing to validate my shortcomings. Thoughts on this much appreciated - is there such a thing as too much?
Oh yes, absolutely. If you've apologized once or twice and it was sincere and genuine (IE, not just "I'm sorry" but actually talking about what you did wrong and apologizing for it) then don't keep revisiting it. WAS's love to rewrite history to blame the LBS for everything. When the LBS overly apologizes for everything under the sun then it just helps convince the WAS that her version of history is correct and it really is all his fault.
W admitted she was probably critical of me and a beeatch at time but that it was only because she was fed up with me.
So again, all your fault. Doesn't sound to me like she's owning up to anything.
As the discussion flowed I tried to drill down into what is one of the main issues from my view - that regardless of the situation W spoke to me with such disrespect (sometimes blatant, sometimes veiled), sarcastic, snide comments, put-downs and insults that are never acceptable in a M. She hit me with - "I am just blunt" and "You are too sensitive". My response was that there is a difference between being "blunt" and being rude and disrespectful.
Don't tell her she's being disrespectful after the fact as that just sounds like blame. You need to do it WHEN she is being disrespectful. THAT is the time to state "I am not going to be treated with disrespect like this" and then walk away, or leave the house or whatever it takes to send her a message that you're not putting up with it.
I think I am just done with any R talks for quite awhile, even if W initiates, because my points regarding W's behavior have been made and my acknowledgment of my issues has also been made. Outside of MC I am just not feeling any more need to get into it. W did say that she would attend MC with me, but with the idea that it would help convince me that we are a bad fit and the M is over.
Well at least she's honest. DO NOT go to MC. Go to IC if you feel it helps you, but don't do MC at all. She's right, she will only do it to check off her list of "things I did to save the M but just proved it was already over."
W seems to be pressuring me to agree that D is mutual and that we will never work.
"W, I do not want a D, I want to work on the M. But I understand this is what you want and I will not stand in your way. I will support your decision no matter what it is." Be respectful, not argumentative. You can disagree with her while still letting her know it's her decision and you will abide by it. Because legally you don't have a choice anyway, it only takes one to D. Your goal is to remove all pressure. Go along with whatever she says. Don't do the work yourself, but don't block her actions if she does the work. Most of the time if the WAS gets the sense that the LBS isn't going to fight the D, then they don't feel pressured to pursue it and they will put it on the back burner for "later".
I'm not sure how much more value there is in continuing to validate my shortcomings. Thoughts on this much appreciated - is there such a thing as too much?
If she brings it up:
W:"bla bla bla past bad behavior..bla bla bla"
H:"I am sorry. I can't change the past. I am not proud of my past behavior and have no intention on doing that in the future."
W:"bla bla bla bla"
H:"I understand you feel that way"
As the discussion flowed I tried to drill down into what is one of the main issues from my view - that regardless of the situation W spoke to me with such disrespect (sometimes blatant, sometimes veiled), sarcastic, snide comments, put-downs and insults that are never acceptable in a M. She hit me with - "I am just blunt" and "You are too sensitive". My response was that there is a difference between being "blunt" and being rude and disrespectful.
Don't tell her she's being disrespectful after the fact as that just sounds like blame. You need to do it WHEN she is being disrespectful. THAT is the time to state "I am not going to be treated with disrespect like this" and then walk away, or leave the house or whatever it takes to send her a message that you're not putting up with it.
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That's a great point AS. I have had a long-term progression of responses to her remarks over the years that has evolved into what it is today. I never let a dis pass. Years ago I would get defensive and strike back. I would also say "are you purposely trying to make me feel bad about myself? Well it's not working." Also "where did you learn that spouses should talk like that to each other?"
Then I moved on to a more passive-aggressive sarcastic response to her critical digs. "oh, you're so sweet!" or "you really know how to make a guy feel great!"
Nowadays I calmly say "that was rude" or "don't talk to me like that" or "i'm done with this conversation until you can speak to me respectfully" for the worst most blatant remarks from her. Regarding the more veiled jabs and sarcastic digs, if I have a quick humorous comeback on the tip of my tongue I will deliver it - the example I have used before is if W is jabbing me while I am driving I will scan the console with my hand while stating that I am looking for the passenger seat ejector button. If I don't have a quick response, I will just completely ignore the jab (as long as it's not too harsh and in need of being called out) and let her jab flop like a bad joke that bombs while I move on to other things.
The key for me is to never, ever get riled up or emotional. It actually helps in such circumstances to truly believe that I am superior to W and will not take the bait or let her trigger me. She does not have the power to bring out the negative emotion in me. I will not lie to myself and say I am at a point where her BS doesn't irritate me on the inside ("there she goes again!"), but I never let it show on the outside. The calm feeling is tremendous. I sense it really has a way of getting into W's head.
I used to tell W "it's not necessarily what you're saying (criticism"), it's HOW you're saying it - your tone and how you are coming at me in an attacking manner" . I have found that tone and demeanor in response are equally important - I can say a variety of different things in response to W as long as my delivery is calm and cool.
Well the W just cannot seem to control herself with pretty much daily criticisms and multiple jabs at me. I am continuing to maintain my cool but I have to say I am feeling almost totally over the sitch and am really starting to want out pretty bad. I honestly don't even think I like her let alone love her at this point. Is this a part of the process that the vets have seen/experienced?
I am finding myself walking the line between being bummed that the kids will be shuttling between two houses and all the logistics, not to mention the huge added expense, but then feeling a sense of relief and dare I say happiness of not having to listen to the W's BS. And getting complete control of my house, without the constant micro-management and control by W. It's a conflicted feeling but I find myself focusing on a lot of silver linings at this point.
Well the W just cannot seem to control herself with pretty much daily criticisms and multiple jabs at me. I am continuing to maintain my cool but I have to say I am feeling almost totally over the sitch and am really starting to want out pretty bad. I honestly don't even think I like her let alone love her at this point. Is this a part of the process that the vets have seen/experienced?
Yes it's normal to think you are done, but don't expect it to stay that way. Recovery is like driving over a series of hills, there are peaks and valleys. When you hit a new peak you think you're done and have moved on but guess what, you're not out of the hills yet and there's a valley dead ahead. Be patient, don't act on these feelings (IE, file for S or D yourself) until you stabilize.
daily criticisms and multiple jabs at me. ... constant micro-management and control by W.
Any examples of interactions you would like to share so we can give alternative behavior for you to try in similar future encounters?
Well the W just cannot seem to control herself with pretty much daily criticisms and multiple jabs at me. I am continuing to maintain my cool but I have to say I am feeling almost totally over the sitch and am really starting to want out pretty bad. I honestly don't even think I like her let alone love her at this point. Is this a part of the process that the vets have seen/experienced?
Yes it's normal to think you are done, but don't expect it to stay that way. Recovery is like driving over a series of hills, there are peaks and valleys. When you hit a new peak you think you're done and have moved on but guess what, you're not out of the hills yet and there's a valley dead ahead. Be patient, don't act on these feelings (IE, file for S or D yourself) until you stabilize.
Thanks AS. I'm trying to stay as cool and even-keeled on the outside as possible. I won't be filing. W has emailed me some mediator suggestions to review. I told her that I want to come to as many terms with her as possible before we engage a mediator and start spending money.
W seems to want a loosey-goosey flexible agreement regarding custody that doesn't have a lot of terms, but I have a divorce L friend that says we should have a detailed agreement that includes all kinds of things like travel restrictions, extracurricular activities, healthcare decisions, how long before we can have the kids can meet boyfriend/girlfriend, etc. etc. L friend says you have no idea what W may decide she wants after D and in the years ahead so get it all in writing up front and you can always be flexible with it. L friend sent me an example agreement and it is very detailed, which I think I like. More to follow as we progress down this path.....
daily criticisms and multiple jabs at me. ... constant micro-management and control by W.
Any examples of interactions you would like to share so we can give alternative behavior for you to try in similar future encounters?
Well a lot of it would probably require that you be a fly on the wall and hear the tone, but here are a few recent examples of the little jabs and controlling behavior:
W was complaining to me about her sister constantly texting her regarding every detail of planning a girls weekend trip:
Me: "I get it. But she's not working and doesn't have much else going on, so that's why she is blowing up your phone with every detail."
W: (sarcastically and almost sneering) "No shyt"
Me: (shake my head and frown)
W: "Well c'mon, I know she's not working!"
Me: "Look I'm just trying to have a conversation with you, and you're not joking around and you know it. Why do you feel the need to be disrespectful? There's no need for it and I don't appreciate it." (walked out of room)
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W: "Did you drop off S(7) medical form at the school office this morning?'
Me: "Yes"
W: "They need to have it on file before next week's field trip"
Me: "Right"
W: "So you turned it in?"
Me: (staring at her silently)
W: "I just need to make sure you turned it in"
Me: "I just told you about 10 seconds ago that I did"
This behavior of asking me 2-3 times if I have done something after I already answered, which is an all the time occurrence, is unbelievably irritating and in my view really condescending.
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W: "I'm sure you didn't notice but there is dirt by the patio door, I am going to go sweep it up"
Me: "I didn't notice"
W: "That's no surprise"
Me: "Thank you, that was nice"
W: "Well c'mon, there is dirt all over the floor"
Me: "I haven't been over there. I didn't notice" (walk away)
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I know this stuff sounds minor but it is death by 1,000 papercuts at this point.
Sometimes women and people in general ask several times, a detached person just responds in the affirmative each time. Don't let her get you worked up. She may not realize she's doing it, she may be doing it to piss you off. Neither means you should get worked up over it.
I know this stuff sounds minor but it is death by 1,000 papercuts at this point.
We men all deal with the same things.
Just validate her feelings:
W was complaining to me about her sister constantly texting her regarding every detail of planning a girls weekend trip:
Me: "I get it. But she's not working and doesn't have much else going on, so that's why she is blowing up your phone with every detail."
H:"That has to be frustrating."
Give longer details:
W: "Did you drop off S(7) medical form at the school office this morning?'
Me: "Yes"
"Yes, I gave it to Ms Soandso at the front desk. She said she would get it to the appropriate person"
Ignore the dig, Appreciate her:
W: "I'm sure you didn't notice but there is dirt by the patio door, I am going to go sweep it up"
H:"Thank you. I appreciate how nice you keep things looking."
Take the trash out with being asked. Don't expect anything in return.
Thanks R2C those are great suggestions.
My biggest DBing issue continues to be "warming up" more around the W. I am still too cool in my view. A bit too businesslike. It's hard to get myself back to the personality I had when the R was good - I have it with everyone else except around the W. It seems most guys need to drop the nice guy stuff, while I need to drop the frosty stuff.
Hey Gekko,
If it makes you feel any better—with a WAS, it won’t really matter which personality you express.
In one breath, W would slam me for ‘fake kindness,’ and then in the next she would tell me that I’m engaging in lawyer-speak, and that I’m not sharing my feelings enough—she wanted to know how I’m feeling and what I’m thinking about all this.
So, sometimes, you just won’t win.
It's just about interacting better. We can only control how we respond. Learning new ways to respond so we have more choices never hurts.
Thanks guys, it's interesting the W is the one who actually does the mindreading in our house, she says I have been sullen and stomping around angry for years when i have/am actually feeling neither. She has always had a penchant for over-dramatization and being negative - glass half empty mentality -so i guess i'm not surprised that she is portraying me this way in her mind.
I have always been able to get her to laugh pretty easily with observational comedy one-liners so i am going to focus more on dealing more of those out and lightening the mood a bit. I have also been very busy with work over the past few weeks and will be massively busy with GAL stuff over the next several weeks, so not a lot of facetime happening with W, which has actually felt great to have the break and space.
it's interesting the W is the one who actually does the mindreading in our house, she says I have been sullen and stomping around angry for years when i have/am actually feeling neither. She has always had a penchant for over-dramatization and being negative - glass half empty mentality -so i guess i'm not surprised that she is portraying me this way in her mind.
Gekko,
This is my sitch right now, too.
W claims that I’m sad or angry or whatever recently, when I have displayed very little (if any) of each to her. Probably not a common sentiment or development, tbh.
Just validate her feelings:
W was complaining to me about her sister constantly texting her regarding every detail of planning a girls weekend trip:
Me: "I get it. But she's not working and doesn't have much else going on, so that's why she is blowing up your phone with every detail."
H:"That has to be frustrating."
Give longer details:
[quote]W: "Did you drop off S(7) medical form at the school office this morning?'
Me: "Yes"
"Yes, I gave it to Ms Soandso at the front desk. She said she would get it to the appropriate person"
Ignore the dig, Appreciate her:
W: "I'm sure you didn't notice but there is dirt by the patio door, I am going to go sweep it up"
H:"Thank you. I appreciate how nice you keep things looking."
Take the trash out with being asked. Don't expect anything in return.
I just stumbled onto this thread by mistake, I am an LBS from MLC boards old timer and I just wanted to say, Ready2Change, that your post REALLY helped me tonight. I try to do do these things but even after 6 years as an LBS, I get confused, and your simple and kind replies are a perfect model, thank you!
I am going to try and catch the board up on the latest - it may take a few posts but here is a start:
We told the kids about D the weekend before last. D(4) appeared unfazed and would not sit still, instead going off to play a few feet away. S(7) cried and that was a dagger to the heart. We spent about 45 minutes just hanging and consoling him. W cried for a bit. I told the kids no matter what we are keeping the house, they will also have another house with their own rooms, close by, same school, friends, sports, etc etc., we just haven't decided which parent will live where. Told them we loved them and this is not their fault. S(7) kept asking "why?" and W said it was grown-up reasons and kept deflecting. I had told W prior that I would not lie and say I wanted D or that we decided together, but W will not say she is initiating so she has to deflect. I was calm and composed the whole time, no tears. Of course it sucked, couldn't believe it was actually happening, but this is the new reality.
I told my parents and siblings over the phone (they are not local) the morning before we told the kids. Got choked up a few times but held it together. They were all shocked and crushed, and really concerned about the kids. I have an awesome family and we are close. I told them I had the sitch under control and that things were going to work out fine. I felt so bad for bringing pain to them, they are hurting and worried. But very supportive and ready to help in any way. We'll be leaning on each other and making it through, and I see lots of great family time ahead.
I have confided in my closest friends as well and given them some of the details of the W's behavior and my own. It felt great to finally let my inner circle know what has been going on. They were all blown away, they said everything always seemed so great between W and I. These friends are mine from way back before I knew W and I think W knows I will be confiding in them. We have a separate set of more mutual friends made through the kids' friends, and I have dropped the news on a few of them so the word will be spreading. With this group I am holding back details and taking the high road, and as I will be remaining in town and involved with kids activities and such I want to keep everything as benign as possible.
So I made it through the first rough phase of telling the kids/immediate family without any breakdowns. I still have some talking to do with good friends, face to face, and there will be emotion in there. I am also very close to my extended family, and I have been getting hit with texts of support which has been heartwarming, I just have not had the time to speak with them but I will be calling them all personally over the next week. It will be hard but cathartic.
To be continued....
Gekko,
sorry to hear about this. I hope you can take a moment and catch your breath. Your children will need you. Their growth won't stop, so even though it doesn't look like you and your W will be together anymore, your children are always yours. Be the man, the father, the example that they need. How you act during this tough time will set the tone for their entire lives. You got this.
Gekko,
Sorry you and your family are going through this very difficult time. My heart goes out to you and your children. It wasn’t long ago where W and I told our S11 and S6.
Time will heal. You’re a strong man and it’s perfectly okay to grieve and allow yourself that time.
Lean on the ones who care about you. It sounds like you got a lot of ppl in your corner, that’s great.
You also got us here. We’re here for you too.
Gekko, very sorry you're going through this. Telling the kids is one of the toughest parts to be sure. I had the same feeling of "how in the world did we end up here" during that convo. Who would put their kids through something like that? My gosh I would have cut off my own arm with a rusty knife before subjecting my kids to a divorce if it were up to me. But it wasn't, and likewise for you this is all your W's doing. So be proud that you have done what you could to stand for your M and for your kids. Always conduct yourself with dignity and respect and your kids will love you for it forever.
Thanks for your kind thoughts, having this space to post and to get support has been amazing.
The day after telling the kids, W returned the engagement ring and wedding band to me. I knew she was going to because she had told me weeks before that she wanted to get them off of her finger and that she would be giving them back. She had asked me if I had thought about keeping them for our D(4) as she might like to have them when she is older, and I laughed and said "Uh, no". When the time is right I will be selling them, there are several online websites that seem legit. I know I won't get anything near what I paid (about $15K) but I am hoping to get a decent sum. I have also stopped wearing my ring.
W has been asking what I have told my family and friends about the sitch. I told her that is between me and them. She said she is worried I am throwing her under the bus. I just reiterated that that my discussions with my family and friends is between me and them, period. I did not elaborate with something like "because of the D you have no right to know" or anything like that, but that is the underlying message in my simple statement. Less is definitely more for most of my discussions with W - keeping it simple. Most of my points can be made in one or two sentences at most.
Since the BD on the kids, W has mentioned us being "friends" and doing things as a "family" several times and also that we need to have a "flexible" custody arrangement due to our work schedules. W has early a.m. video calls with people overseas once or twice a week that she cannot control, so I can see why she would want flexibility. She is probably anticipating that I will handle the kids on these mornings and get them to school/pre-school, even if it will be her day for custody.
Regarding being "friends", in response I said "we will be co-parents and do the best we can." I did not directly say we wouldn't be friends but I'm not planning on it. I am planning on moving on and between work, kids, actual friends, hobbies and eventual dating I am anticipating it will be all business between me and W and communications will be brief. I don't feel the need to spell things out for her -"this is how its going to be" type stuff. I am more a man of action, and she will see how things are going to be once we get to that point. I feel like trying to spell it out for her now is not going to change anything, its not going to give her pause as to whether she is making the right decision to D, and it almost comes across as maybe a little vindictive /reactionary/punishment. Don't tell her, just show her is my motto. Thoughts on this approach appreciated...
Same thing with doing things as a family. I'm not saying "we're not a family", but I'm not intending to do "family" events like amusement parks, vacations, etc. We will definitely be seeing each other at kids events, and I suspect we may do joint kids' b-day parties, but that's about it. If W mentions doing some sort of family day-trip or other event, I feel like I will be declining. Thoughts on this?
Finally, regarding custody, I will happily take extra time with the kids so long as it does not impact my work. I often defer to W's schedule because she has to jump when someone else says and I am in more control of mine. But on my days without custody I am intending to book appointments and have long work days so that I can have a lighter workload on days the kids are with me, so I'm certain there are going to be plenty of days the W is going to have to figure things out for herself. She is going to see my response to her request for help - "sorry but I am booked" - and she will conclude that I am punishing her for D. I'm not sure how she will handle early a.m. kids stuff other than getting our sitter to come over, but hard to see how that will work on a regular basis. I'll take the kids when I can, otherwise, Not My Problem.
Gekko,
Hang in there bud. Most importantly, grow a new and tight bond with your kids! I went through exactly where you are about 4 years ago. It was brutal, and I'd be lying if I said it didn't get worse. What I can also advise you on...as part of my GAL and to make myself feel better, I started seeing someone about 2 months after she filed for the D. Felt good at the time, but we ended up reconciling and it was a major barrier to trusting each other again, etc. W had feeling like I thought she was easily replaceable. Not true, but that's how she saw it...even though she was the one running, filing, and seeing someone else as well.
The new "friends" talk, doing "family outings," and things like this was exactly when she started thawing to me. I had definitely GAL and 180 and started a new life. Her words to me were, "I knew you'd become the man I wanted as soon as I left you." So if you TRULY want the R, be PATIENT. However, if you are unsure if you want the R, this is the time you need to figure that out. GAL and detaching is all part of being the new you...AND figuring out what you want in your old R with W or in any relationship. Look at this time as something positive...you get time for yourself to figure out a LOT of things about you and your needs. Sounds like the relationship was unhealthy, which you really don't want...so you know you don't want your old M back, so don't cling to it! If you stay M to your W or not, your R with her will be different from now on anyway!
Hope this helps!
This statement stands out from PuppyDogTails:
H:"W, I have no intention on being your friend when you have decided to end our marriage this way."
I am sure it is in my quotes likes someplace. See if you can find it and read the rest of his "Script".
Off the top of my head:
H:"W, One of the benefits of being married is the flexibility. After we are divorced, it will be important that we stick to a set exchange scheduled. There will of course be exceptions, but they should be rare."
Gekko,
Hang in there bud. Most importantly, grow a new and tight bond with your kids! I went through exactly where you are about 4 years ago. It was brutal, and I'd be lying if I said it didn't get worse. What I can also advise you on...as part of my GAL and to make myself feel better, I started seeing someone about 2 months after she filed for the D. Felt good at the time, but we ended up reconciling and it was a major barrier to trusting each other again, etc. W had feeling like I thought she was easily replaceable. Not true, but that's how she saw it...even though she was the one running, filing, and seeing someone else as well.
The new "friends" talk, doing "family outings," and things like this was exactly when she started thawing to me. I had definitely GAL and 180 and started a new life. Her words to me were, "I knew you'd become the man I wanted as soon as I left you." So if you TRULY want the R, be PATIENT. However, if you are unsure if you want the R, this is the time you need to figure that out. GAL and detaching is all part of being the new you...AND figuring out what you want in your old R with W or in any relationship. Look at this time as something positive...you get time for yourself to figure out a LOT of things about you and your needs. Sounds like the relationship was unhealthy, which you really don't want...so you know you don't want your old M back, so don't cling to it! If you stay M to your W or not, your R with her will be different from now on anyway!
Hope this helps!
Thanks for your insight Miler, much appreciated
Regarding dating, I have no intention of doing so before D or at least not until after we are in separate houses. (I am still in IHS at the moment). I have to admit that there are a few women in my orbit where a FWB thing would be game on if I wanted, but I am holding back on that for the time being as well. No need to complicate the current sitch.
I definitely do not want the current M, the W has work to do (so do I) if a R would ever be a possibility in the future. I am truly at this point not even thinking of an R with her at this point. My focus is on self-improvement, 180's, GAL, and handling the myriad of issues (custody, finances, etc ) leading up to D like a Boss.
More updates from the past few weeks:
I have been very busy with work and GAL and have not spent much time around W. I took a weekend trip with some of my friends which was awesome. I filled them in on the sitch at the outset and then no R talk for the rest of the weekend - just positive good times and laughs. Then I spent another weekend with my S(7) and a few friends and their kids at one of their condos up in the mountains. No R talk, just good times with the kids in the snow. Truthfully it's pretty great having full control over the weekend and no W inserting her controlling behavior over every little detail. And S(7) had the time of his life.
I had another night out with some old friends who were aware of the sitch generally but not the details. We hung out for a few hours at their house and I filled them on BD, ILYBINILWY, the W's caustic behavior over the years, my withdrawal and thoughts of a D many years ago, my own bad behavior, etc. etc. I was blown away when my friends spoke of instances when they were taken aback by W's harsh commentary they had experienced, even one instance where one friend actually felt dissed by her. It was so comforting yet also emotional to hear. I am a pretty strong guy but I shed a few tears and there were big hugs put on me. They also commented on my withdrawing from the R years ago, saying "anyone would feel that way after being hit with constant criticism". One friend said I need to watch out for PTSD. Then we went out for a great dinner and drinks with a bigger group of friends, and everyone was so supportive with lots of love in the air. Incredible night.
I've have been hitting the gym hard, lifting big weight and some cardio as well. In combination with the "D Diet", I am down from a 34 waist to a 32 and that's as slim as I can go. I was a weekend warrior athlete for decades and while I tapered off over the past 7 years since kids, everything is coming back pretty quick (for an old guy :)) I am probably about 90 days away from burning down any residual body fat and packing on the additional muscle mass I want. Just in time for the 2 S's - Summer and Separation.
I have a few more issues to update the board on but am out of time, more to come. Thanks for reading and everybody keep DBing - you are in control of you.
Truthfully it's pretty great having full control over the weekend and no W inserting her controlling behavior over every little detail. And S(7) had the time of his life.
It is a good feeling.Enjoy those times.
Keep going you are doing well
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